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Sun, 1 Mar 2020 20:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-f045d1f.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-f045d1f.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.19.54]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0047F8C0FA3 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 20:36:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1583123790; bh=sq074Cjovult3BDD+5VrHD8Hb/S9VD2Z2xLnJ3qDhNc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=JI2FJXY3Z37T5BKYChdBjL4OpANJWzvcAZM6gC4r/NOT5tw2+TaytpDEJEM6cSYXJ w/D6zF5NNRrRpb9jRJ/zfCJ7reUaKY78xIZlTP+mHqD1uxCQCN2L/mjFA704l9vMym fui3ochQ3EwlODPwlW6HTdXmaUNsoOXiJpL1z224= Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 20:36:29 -0800 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 2b2d65: Update main file to draft-rats-eat-mandyam-00 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 04:36:34 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/claim-characteristics Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 2b2d656df73dbbca4baf9766f328a76f3ac5ecd5 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2b2d656df73dbbca4baf9766f328a76f3ac5ecd5 Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-04-16 (Tue, 16 Apr 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update main file to draft-rats-eat-mandyam-00 Commit: 2c44d5cad7bfdc98a4e558115324bd03a1abfdee https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2c44d5cad7bfdc98a4e558115324bd03a1abfdee Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-04-16 (Tue, 16 Apr 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Merge pull request #8 from gmandyam/master Update main file to draft-rats-eat-mandyam-00 Commit: 4fe80e489683cdfa1e592aed324abc6e490e1b58 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/4fe80e489683cdfa1e592aed324abc6e490e1b58 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-06-20 (Thu, 20 Jun 2019) Changed paths: A Makefile A circle.yml M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- first try at CDDL (and makefile) Commit: 1cac679913c10ce8599e1a45ea172bf6cf09225c https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/1cac679913c10ce8599e1a45ea172bf6cf09225c Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-06-21 (Fri, 21 Jun 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Close to finished with CDDL/CWT/JWT conversion Commit: 3fa22e2a9f9a9a038ebf528f8776b5c00eff77d2 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/3fa22e2a9f9a9a038ebf528f8776b5c00eff77d2 Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-06-22 (Sat, 22 Jun 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Commit: 6eebb0e1fbc8e83cf94eab3792d583ac6ed88c9c https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/6eebb0e1fbc8e83cf94eab3792d583ac6ed88c9c Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-06-22 (Sat, 22 Jun 2019) Changed paths: A draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.pdf A draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt A draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.xml Log Message: ----------- Add files via upload Commit: 918504885fc218353df6b3df12ef18db92b17a9e https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/918504885fc218353df6b3df12ef18db92b17a9e Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- fix examples for new labels and structure Commit: b3cab5e4454229b95fafbc50c3cf7921b7dbc221 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b3cab5e4454229b95fafbc50c3cf7921b7dbc221 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- add changes appendix; minor fixes Commit: 3dd450ecdb8be62137ff582f97735396c5e18e4a https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/3dd450ecdb8be62137ff582f97735396c5e18e4a Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: A Makefile A circle.yml M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Draft is re-oriented so that an EAT is now a CWT or JWT. CDDL is used for the information model. Commit: 191df58a60aed11736c365e16e6790d768ef4e0a https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/191df58a60aed11736c365e16e6790d768ef4e0a Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md Log Message: ----------- resolve name conflict Commit: 123adb28961c1d19fc21579262ba6ad380fdde5f https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/123adb28961c1d19fc21579262ba6ad380fdde5f Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: R draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md A draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- rename main documet as rats draft Commit: 1fef8606ab6ce2f4bd0fd11617f74d9240e561c2 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/1fef8606ab6ce2f4bd0fd11617f74d9240e561c2 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Improvements to UEID description Commit: 455aa2cdb967c8fcc1b002e266bf2dd7eaf95c5d https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/455aa2cdb967c8fcc1b002e266bf2dd7eaf95c5d Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-07-03 (Wed, 03 Jul 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Address most comments Ben gave to Laurence in Prague Commit: 05d468b6ef4a09200a41934816c7e8fe102c7a99 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/05d468b6ef4a09200a41934816c7e8fe102c7a99 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-01 (Sun, 01 Mar 2020) Changed paths: A Makefile A circle.yml R draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.md A draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- resync with master Commit: 15b436f390c6f1a480faa256b9f857a2a4e3bade https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/15b436f390c6f1a480faa256b9f857a2a4e3bade Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-01 (Sun, 01 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- move claims characteristics to IANA considerations; indicate this updates RFC8932 Compare: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/compare/c72786fd0584...15b436f390c6 From nobody Sun Mar 1 20:58:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1541E3A0B8E for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 20:58:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9mRZbqd3WPMH for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 20:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-28.smtp.github.com (out-28.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 578633A0B87 for ; 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Tue, 3 Mar 2020 10:04:52 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Remote Hackathon for IETF#107 ? 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X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 10:05:05 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB3716C773679880899022A125FAE40AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, at the RATS virtual interim meeting yesterday the chairs suggested to consi= der organizing a remote hackathon on the weekend before IETF#107 (because several contributors cannot attend the meeting in person). This is an interesting idea and could be a continuation of the hackathon in= Berlin. I think we should give it a try. We have a communication platform with Webex and the hardware is also not an= issue because many of you already have a board (either from previous hacka= thons or from other projects). The biggest challenge is the timezone difference but there is very little w= e can do about it. Some folks will join later and others will leave earlier= . It is what it is. Should we try to allocate March 20th and March 21st as a date for the hacka= thon, create a webex and an Etherpad, and prepare for coding in the area of= RATS, SUIT, and TEEP? We could do two status updates (one on Saturday and the other one on Sunday= ). What do you think? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716C773679880899022A125FAE40AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

at the RATS virtual interim meeting yesterday the ch= airs suggested to consider organizing a remote hackathon on the weekend bef= ore IETF#107

(because several contributors cannot attend the meet= ing in person).

 

This is an interesting idea and could be a continuat= ion of the hackathon in Berlin.

I think we should give it a try.

 

We have a communication platform with Webex and the = hardware is also not an issue because many of you already have a board (eit= her from previous hackathons or from other projects).

The biggest challenge is the timezone difference but= there is very little we can do about it. Some folks will join later and ot= hers will leave earlier. It is what it is.

 

Should we try to allocate March 20th and = March 21st as a date for the hackathon, create a webex and an Et= herpad, and prepare for coding in the area of RATS, SUIT, and TEEP?

We could do two status updates (one on Saturday and = the other one on Sunday).

 

What do you think?

 

Ciao

Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716C773679880899022A125FAE40AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 04:27:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38313A1EAC for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 04:26:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Irhdubelqt9t for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 04:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F08CB3A1E9D for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 04:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id b3so2795195otp.4 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 04:26:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3Xv/nIwxv+BYFl4V4ne/TsAgoSZsxGZt4vWQE7vE2jk=; b=JyKBnsG/E7wcBlq8Dk9Lk5spjjo6UW7zmQ86n/X5avdi7HJEMzMbmPhFeuOpOrWwdq PvPVT0DA2Dr0Q9SX8Gywlwjk+y0bebzZjneW5t80jJ8O1arXPuR69sJ5NoZ7zqHlAbom XZlSyuNNCCTafxjXsJNattyBcSq1O7Z7DykrQaDL+GhLKZPQNWbvjBu9j95pPvpyYTgI XvbElFhBruonVFGpzDlLFvinrqcoR3+thqxjREC2P/7JAyYhQ/m0X0PzKdISk7boc1+9 Bbp2Fpnjpldm3+1s1eEtM6yoy3se7iEgXgahL0VrkYiD7c+4CtFUC8lm5hrr2m2+EXVK isww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3Xv/nIwxv+BYFl4V4ne/TsAgoSZsxGZt4vWQE7vE2jk=; b=nQr+iwvqe+8SQVIN6+2Ce4HX+uHffUlZILbELTAOGi87GEKwyfBMgb3t1b3IXfkbK5 ETnMq15nhXMQu5Fh87elhk8uGEqYcLkRd0YOI5UpfpayruaJ+SzzIwp4EAWVAykO17Tl lXcmUqGx9Y+6kssQIs7iWjJccxPVo8elFDGfuMPCPS5bpk3lLsGYGU0/oUIRlsPodluM EsUHpb6zaGV68BXWVHgxKOyLcTaoRsNJoScsF9AfYp9+sOEsfLqib/LsBqDNFjNx5rrt Woa8rStdkciAfl9Esp4ek8GBxsUuuNR2xk5tnv8PL/xU+R7aEL4xM/MJRIcya1oDF2Hr jb2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2zFncSkYly1IPZhqV4X8pYjsqsXPnYgQofzZbLbQk9Q/LVaCDv E6CDW0tN+22UPJdbWUCW8F38YZVO5DP9rtQ1h4M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vubxs8B2EANDkrRI1uzbRXucMnlF7FjOF5jE1ej4UJH8JlUEsYh6GipLOJkRW2mR8/9o8tMQjxMuzb2QqXL0tg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1345:: with SMTP id r5mr3121545otq.342.1583238411311; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 04:26:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:26:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019dcf0059ff26b3e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Remote Hackathon for IETF#107 ? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 12:26:59 -0000 --00000000000019dcf0059ff26b3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thank you, Hannes! I'd love to see suggestions to improve the remote hackathon before, during, and after the event. This is an opportunity to innovate and break some new barriers. This might be in process or human to human actions, not necessarily in technology, although with our crowd there are likely to be tech innovations too. :-) Best regards, Kathleen On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 5:05 AM Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > > > > at the RATS virtual interim meeting yesterday the chairs suggested to > consider organizing a remote hackathon on the weekend before IETF#107 > > (because several contributors cannot attend the meeting in person). > > > > This is an interesting idea and could be a continuation of the hackathon > in Berlin. > > I think we should give it a try. > > > > We have a communication platform with Webex and the hardware is also not > an issue because many of you already have a board (either from previous > hackathons or from other projects). > > The biggest challenge is the timezone difference but there is very little > we can do about it. Some folks will join later and others will leave > earlier. It is what it is. > > > > Should we try to allocate March 20th and March 21st as a date for the > hackathon, create a webex and an Etherpad, and prepare for coding in the > area of RATS, SUIT, and TEEP? > > We could do two status updates (one on Saturday and the other one on > Sunday). > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > -- Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000019dcf0059ff26b3e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Hannes!

I'd love to see = suggestions to improve the remote hackathon before, during, and after the e= vent.=C2=A0 This is an opportunity to innovate and break some new barriers.= =C2=A0 This might be in process or human to human actions, not necessarily = in technology, although with our crowd there are likely to be tech innovati= ons too. :-)

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 5:05 AM Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

Hi all,

=C2=A0

at the RATS virtual interim meeting yesterday the ch= airs suggested to consider organizing a remote hackathon on the weekend bef= ore IETF#107

(because several contributors cannot attend the meet= ing in person).

=C2=A0

This is an interesting idea and could be a continuat= ion of the hackathon in Berlin.

I think we should give it a try.

=C2=A0

We have a communication platform with Webex and the = hardware is also not an issue because many of you already have a board (eit= her from previous hackathons or from other projects).

The biggest challenge is the timezone difference but= there is very little we can do about it. Some folks will join later and ot= hers will leave earlier. It is what it is.

=C2=A0

Should we try to allocate March 20th and = March 21st as a date for the hackathon, create a webex and an Et= herpad, and prepare for coding in the area of RATS, SUIT, and TEEP?

We could do two status updates (one on Saturday and = the other one on Sunday).

=C2=A0

What do you think? <= /span>

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
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Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:04:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: mcharlesr@gmail.com Sender: Google Calendar Message-ID: <0000000000000695bc059ff57698@google.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 16:04:39 +0000 From: mcharlesr@gmail.com To: rats@ietf.org, prowe@mitre.org, elear@cisco.com, mdb@juniper.net, ncamwing@cisco.com, Nicolae Paladi , jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com, lgl@island-resort.com, Thomas Hardjono , blueroofmusic@gmail.com, Thomas Fossati , mathias.brossard@arm.com, Ned Smith , Henk Birkholz , shwethab@cisco.com, dthaler@microsoft.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000069580059ff57696" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0800 Subject: [Rats] Invitation: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time @ Fri 2020-03-06 12:00 - 13:00 (EST) (rats@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 16:04:43 -0000 --000000000000069580059ff57696 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=

You have been invited to the follo= wing event.

RATS Architecture Design Team weekl= y meeting time

When
F= ri 2020-03-06 12:00 =E2=80=93 13:00 Eastern Time= - Toronto
Where
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID= =3Dm3f95c936acbfe3c99b6f7939f95b9876, (map)
Calendar
rats@ietf.org
Who<= td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;= color:#222">
Thomas Hardjono
•
•
mcharlesr@gmail.com= - organizer
<= /div>
•
prowe@mitre.= org
•<= /div>
elear@cis= co.com<= /div>
•
mdb@= juniper.net
•=
ncamwing@cisco.com
•
<= div>
Nicolae Paladi
•
rats@ietf.org
•
jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
•
lgl@island-resort.com
•
•
blueroofmu= sic@gmail.com
Thomas Fossati
<= div style=3D"text-indent:-1px">•
mathias.brossard@arm.com
•
Ned Smith
Henk Birkholz
=
•
shwethab@cisco.com
•
=
dthaler@micros= oft.com<= /span>
Moved to webex.

Meeting number:
644 129 723
Pas= sword:
T2Beya6D

https://ietf.webex.com/i= etf/j.php?MTID=3Dm3f95c936acbfe3c99b6f7939f95b9876


1-650-479-3208=C2=A0Call-in number=C2=A0
<= p style=3D"color:#222;font-size:13px;margin:0">G= oing (rats@ietf.org)?   Yes - Mayb= e - No    more options »

Invitation from Google Calendar

Yo= u are receiving this courtesy email at the account rats@ietf.org because yo= u are an attendee of this event.

To stop receiving future updates for= this event, decline this event. Alternatively you can sign up for a Google= account at https://www.google.com/calendar/ and control your notification = settings for your entire calendar.

Forwarding this invitation could a= llow any recipient to send a response to the organizer and be added to the = guest list, or invite others regardless of their own invitation status, or = to modify your RSVP. Learn More.

 --00000000000006957c059ff57694 Content-Type: text/calendar; charset="UTF-8"; method=REQUEST Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCALENDAR PRODID:-//Google Inc//Google Calendar 70.9054//EN VERSION:2.0 CALSCALE:GREGORIAN METHOD:REQUEST BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTART:20200306T170000Z DTEND:20200306T180000Z DTSTAMP:20200303T160439Z ORGANIZER;CN=3Dmcharlesr@gmail.com:mailto:mcharlesr@gmail.com UID:7qqdv6v4thva86g5kkohsgvb8m@google.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dprowe@mitre.org;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:prowe@mitre.org ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Delear@cisco.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:elear@cisco.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dmdb@juniper.net;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:mdb@juniper.net ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dncamwing@cisco.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3DNicolae Paladi;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:nicolae.paladi@ri.se ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Drats@ietf.org;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:rats@ietf.org ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Djodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:jodonogh@qti.q= ualco mm.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dlgl@island-resort.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:lgl@island-resort.= com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3DThomas Hardjono;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:ietf-rats@hardjono.net ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dblueroofmusic@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:blueroofmusic@gm= ail.c om ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3DThomas Fossati;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:tho@koanlogic.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dmathias.brossard@arm.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:mathias.brossar= d@arm .com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3DNed Smith;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:ned.smith@intel.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3DHenk Birkholz;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhof= er.de ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Dshwethab@cisco.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:shwethab@cisco.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSVP=3D TRUE;CN=3Ddthaler@microsoft.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:dthaler@microsoft.= com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;ROLE=3DREQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=3DACCEPTED;RSV= P=3DTRUE ;CN=3Dmcharlesr@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=3D0:mailto:mcharlesr@gmail.com X-MICROSOFT-CDO-OWNERAPPTID:506125865 CREATED:20200303T160438Z DESCRIPTION:Moved to webex.

Meeting number:
644 129 723< /dd>
Password:
T2Beya6D

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm3f95c936acbfe3c99b6f7939f95= b98 76


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XG4tOjp+On46On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46DQogfjp+On46 fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+Ojp+On46Oi0NCkxBU1QtTU9ESUZJRUQ6MjAyMDAz MDNUMTYwNDM4Wg0KTE9DQVRJT046aHR0cHM6Ly9pZXRmLndlYmV4LmNvbS9pZXRmL2oucGhwP01U SUQ9bTNmOTVjOTM2YWNiZmUzYzk5YjZmNzkzOWY5DQogNWI5ODc2XCwgDQpTRVFVRU5DRTowDQpT VEFUVVM6Q09ORklSTUVEDQpTVU1NQVJZOlJBVFMgQXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIERlc2lnbiBUZWFtIHdl ZWtseSBtZWV0aW5nIHRpbWUNClRSQU5TUDpPUEFRVUUNCkVORDpWRVZFTlQNCkVORDpWQ0FMRU5E QVINCg== --000000000000069580059ff57696-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 08:13:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E9B3A22E4; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:13:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8FX36PwZQY0; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 727643A22EE; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9568C3897F; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1116D; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:13:06 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org, teep@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] "SLA" on Attestion Results, or validity lifetime X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 16:13:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/42 asks: TEEP and others needs to know what kind of SLA RATS can provide. DaveThaler: The related TEEP issue is ietf-teep/architecture#148 and an initial TEEP architecture PR is at ietf-teep/architecture#153 which punts part of the problem to the RATS architecture, since it refers to the RATS arch for more discussion. A key architectural question is whether an attestation result may/should/must have a validity lifetime encoded in it (like DNS responses etc. have TTLs) or not. That is, can the Verifier say that an attestation result it generates has an expiration associated? (Physical passports and drivers licenses for example do have an expiration associated, as do X.509 certificates.) Or is the lifetime only implementable by the Relying Party based on other information like a Timestamp in the attestation result and its own appraisal policy for attestation results? And is there any requirement that a Relying Party and an Attestation Server need roughly synchronized clocks? (I suspect yes.) Offhand, I think that it would be good to allow attestation results to include an expiration timestamp. (Aside: assuming we want EATs to be usable as attestation results, I think this also motivates adding an Expiry claim to the EAT document.) mingpeiwk commented 16 hours ago I concur that a validity period should be associated with an attestation result. This is a common best practice for various assertions, certificates etc. as Dave listed. mcr commented 15 hours ago I don't think that the we need to have a lifetime in the Attestation Results. The Relying Party gets to decide if the results are fresh enough. We have two ways to prove freshness: some kind of pronouncement of time from "above" (maybe it's GPS, I don't know) such as imagined by TUDA, or some kind of nonce-based system. If the RP issues the nonce, it knows when it issued the nonce, so it knows how fresh the Attestation Results must be. It also knows when it first got those results. (Same thing applies RP->Verifier, and AttestationResults->Evidence) MCR: I believe that in the TEEP case that everything is sufficiently "online" that freshness via nonces is probably better than freshness by synchronized clocks. Other users may have different requirements, and thus https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-tuda/ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5eghIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWq3Qf9H2w1dK3ilplaW7ZBlJynCtFyFY0DsdZ4kGTwDbafX8ZmJuus0Y0NtlP3 F9BAu1WII/231em34iKezrXeKqOIfpQvIj+SL+a9ItvHeAKRFwk47Gvhr7LS9a2s U2tFe5rB1/OAuZBlIHIMppSXLkh+zTbknVakq2JrKQgMqcyMQ6MwK7I60+HBbzU/ EuPAav7gQPO2saSbh1EY3guaIL5hcIdg3Y0nDgBeWygmqMsiubnVRu62BSktliSW 4R572SKm673fqOsv/+D1E2cc6WppFsqRHIvu0aLs1JyvC0zT7RpxeYVgtbdafxO7 3Qlm07u8/eX/WZ0VTDk2wMLMH7rCWQ== =yQxZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 08:44:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B47C3A2359 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:44:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HDU1Unf4ajM for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFE9D3A237A for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A4D3897F; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B009616D; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:35:39 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig cc: "rats\@ietf.org" , siot-hackathon@lists.fu-berlin.de In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Remote Hackathon for IETF#107 ? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 16:44:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > at the RATS virtual interim meeting yesterday the chairs suggested to > consider organizing a remote hackathon on the weekend before IETF#107 > (because several contributors cannot attend the meeting in person). So, IETF now technically starts on on the Saturday, with the Hackathon and Code Sprint. The weekend before IETF would be the 14th/15th :-) Is that what you mean, or did you mean to overlap the Hackathon as your note suggests below. in which case, you are just remote Hackathon participants. > This is an interesting idea and could be a continuation of the > hackathon in Berlin. I think we should give it a try. Yes, I'm okay with this, but I'd like to get a bit more organized. > We have a communication platform with Webex and the hardware is also > not an issue because many of you already have a board (either from > previous hackathons or from other projects). The biggest challenge is > the timezone difference but there is very little we can do about > it. Some folks will join later and others will leave earlier.. It is > what it is. But, who picks the time zone for common discussion? If we are all asynchronous, we can also just use email, and the point breaks down. > Should we try to allocate March 20th and March 21st as a date for the > hackathon, create a webex and an Etherpad, and prepare for coding in > the area of RATS, SUIT, and TEEP? We could do two status updates (one > on Saturday and the other one on Sunday). > What do you think? I think that there is a somewhat tenuous notion of what the goals are. March 20 is Friday, btw :-) Are we starting at 23:59 Vancouver time on the 20th, which is Saturday morning Berlin? :-) :-) :-) I am bringing my grapeboard to IETF107, and I think that it has the most potential to do something interesting wrt: TPM based attestation and SUIT-based upgrades, and TEEP TEEs. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5eh1sACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVn4Af/TYQRKaGDJ3UYohLggriP9cYPwu+ALdP0TQBT5rmfqYKjknNDphjQlXdT bKJcgeQ7m/Wxv0C2skg0zOpONj1XCDIPJpJOPajXL3K3KK5S69NxSEebNnbzAGCn TJxFnBolLm+6qalcYKR7j3z+yHFs4i9UtUB85kMlcfQRQUKyO6EHKA5y1L7s+mP8 +BkC25TM1to2INQLjJzr0TU4TDPX/vCv4Cf9dytBmIL8VdhcqH7UqKqThmfPxYYi KZ0afT4Nx4eoLDAE7NGhFedEVNjDbiEMhJRMkZ09iNvJvkl3p+Az4978gt7T0TWm Bh8FDknjCnIGObnwu8fxnuf5eKumFg== =K1Sh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 08:47:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A2C3A235E for ; 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Tue, 3 Mar 2020 16:47:44 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Remote Hackathon for IETF#107 ? 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X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 16:47:55 -0000 Hi Michael, > So, IETF now technically starts on on the Saturday, with the Hackathon an= d Code Sprint. The weekend before IETF would be the 14th/15th :-) Is that = what you mean, or did you mean to overlap the Hackathon as your note sugges= ts below. in which case, you are just remote Hackathon participants. Sorry. I meant March 21th (Saturday) and March 22nd (Sunday). > Yes, I'm okay with this, but I'd like to get a bit more organized. Of course. > But, who picks the time zone for common discussion? > If we are all asynchronous, we can also just use email, and the point bre= aks down. We could put our names on the IETF Hackathon Wiki (see https://trac.ietf.or= g/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/107hackathon) to find out who is interested to par= ticipate. Then, we can find out what works for everyone. > Should we try to allocate March 20th and March 21st as a date for the > hackathon, create a webex and an Etherpad, and prepare for coding in > the area of RATS, SUIT, and TEEP? We could do two status updates (on= e > on Saturday and the other one on Sunday). > What do you think? > I am bringing my grapeboard to IETF107, and I think that it has the most = potential to do something interesting wrt: TPM based attestation and SUIT-b= ased upgrades, and TEEP TEEs. I would like to work on the CBOR/COSE-based version of TEEP (based on what = we discussed at the TEEP listing following the hackathon). Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Tue Mar 3 11:12:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD303A0784 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:12:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7V6abI1TeSiE for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCE1B3A0799 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 9Cxtj0ltAo8iz9CxtjokLv; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 12:12:25 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Bb6mLYl2 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wz2cV1elueLA94rrP6oA:9 a=PcmVZlGDjjEGo4i_:21 a=fgFapHttiJmv4gyM:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:12:24 -0800 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHOU9V8GYPTMPoD9cP9XvLwAoMVSUnrYDpLLRCdWpNjhLlty5lWdTtfuwin7xeA8Rh7fllayXSgm72gLSKWzrTmiOVKtdFdFgwDVx1njYyd3Um/lhP+f Xlo3ZS7mgGOKc5LnNzAAdxhcTB9/jit3mCRsmMsl7kvjSHfKEAxDwBJ/ Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 19:12:34 -0000 Closing the loop on trust between the Attester and Verifier has always = seemed critical to me in Rats architecture. It is in all my diagrams. = There has to be some out-of-band interaction akin to CA=E2=80=99s giving = certificates to browser vendors or it doesn=E2=80=99t work. =46rom = conversations in Berlin, I now understand this is through Endorsements. = Here=E2=80=99s how I think it works. Does this seem right? Endorsements are critical and integral in the Rats architecture. An = Endorsement is the Verifier=E2=80=99s sole basis for trusting the = Attester.=20 A minimal endorsement includes a key to verify signatures on the = Attestation Evidence and some information about the vendor backing the = endorsement, the Endorser, perhaps just the name of the vendor or = perhaps a lot more. In some use cases the Endorser may operate the Verifier. For example, a = chip vendor may operate an only verification service for attestations = from its chip. Endorsements and Endorsers are of interest to the Relying Party because = it tells them something about how they might trust the Evidence. For = example, if the Endorser is a highly reputable chip vendor, they may = trust it quite a lot. If it is an unknown SW vendor, they may not trust = it much at all. The Endorser will be the manufacturer of the Attester in some cases. = This manufacturer will make the HW and SW that make up the Attester. = They will put the signing keys into the Attester. They will build a = database of the corresponding public keys that are eventually supplied = to the Verifier in the form of Endorsements. In other cases the Endorser might be an independent trust broker and/or = certification house. They don=E2=80=99t make the Attester, but they know = who did and qualify them in some way. They may do this for many Attester = vendors as an aggregation service. The Relying Party comes to trust the Endorser through some out-of-band = process that is not specified in the Rats architecture. It is most = likely transitive through the Verifier. The Relying Party decided to = trust the Verifier and the Verifier decides to trust the Endorser. The mechanisms of out-of-band trust establishment is likely to be = through X.509 certificates, perhaps with TLS. The policy basis for trust = establishment may involve business decisions, legal agreements and = reputations. For example, a Relying Party may decide to trust prominent = chip vendors or device just by their reputation. In another example, a = Verification service may accept click-through legal agreements set up = Endorsements for a particular vendor. In Android Attestation, Google is the Endorser. The Attester = manufacturers are the handset vendors and their suppliers. Google makes = the attestation keys and distributes them one to handset manufacturers = that generally comply with Google=E2=80=99s requirements. Google is also = the Verifier because they provide an only verification service. The = trust establishment between Endorser and Verifier is trivial because = they are the same. The Relying Party trusts Google because they are so = well known through TLS certificates. For FIDO, the FIDO Alliance is the Endorser. Individual FIDO = Authenticator manufacturers (e.g. handset vendors) generate the = attestation keys, sign them into X.509 certificates and perhaps form a = certificate hierarchy. They send the root of this certificate hierarchy = to the FIDO Alliance which publishes them on their web site. In FIDO, = the Verifier is typically the Relying Party, so they take in all = necessary X.509 certificates to be able to verify all the way down to = the key uses to sign the Attestation Evidence. The FIDO Alliance also = supplies other information in the Endorsement, such as certification = status and various Authenticator characteristics (I=E2=80=99m equating = the FIDO Metadata service to an Endorsement service). Assuming this is right, it seems more could be added architecture draft = on Endorsements. LL From nobody Tue Mar 3 11:44:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DCF3A0803 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:44:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id swPWXI4jxSYR for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FA4E3A0802 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 9DSTjnHeko7Kz9DSUj1lQo; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 12:44:02 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=WcdylHpX c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=aZG0uH2-emYjH2z7vmUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ryG-LFkY0yxQxohT:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_241E88BF-24EF-40C8-8055-D0E8E48EC732" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:44:01 -0800 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEwLrq1oJ73l7y4m7e+U3WjVWWGCRIS2vgrHomzQtPLNpBeEP5tEuuvGERVmBV4jANPa6+1SlIvXxU+lBKaKHaz3WkXV6qHsCaMG1aPVJTwFTSMGuEgV UjYULpyNhuBIABnTXA+Enr5Gn6K6sJMOrCfQzVrK2Z12EHC5F31VQSst Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 19:44:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_241E88BF-24EF-40C8-8055-D0E8E48EC732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The current architecture document has a serialization formats diagrams = that I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below. Such a plethora of serialization formats, many of which are cannot be = converted between, seems counter to IETF interoperability. Don=E2=80=99t = we want to minimize formats? Top of my list would be strong preference for JWT for attestation = results returned by web-based attestation services.=20 Next would be preference for CWT for evidence, with JWT as second. I can see maybe creating a mapping document that says how to encode the = CDDL in EAT to ASN.1 for X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see that as a = mainline activity. Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be appropriate to call out the TPM format as fixed = and owned by the TCG? In the case of local verifiers, the format becomes a very local issue = and less an IETF interoperability concern. Basically, it seems RATS should adopt a goal and strategy to maximize = interoperability here. LL Evidence Attestation Results .--------------. CWT CWT = .-------------------. | Attester-A |------------. .----------->| Relying Party = V | '--------------' v | = `-------------------' .--------------. JWT .------------. JWT = .-------------------. | Attester-B |-------->| Verifier |-------->| Relying Party = W | '--------------' | | = `-------------------' .--------------. X.509 | | X.509 = .-------------------. | Attester-C |-------->| |-------->| Relying Party = X | '--------------' | | = `-------------------' .--------------. TPM | | TPM = .-------------------. | Attester-D |-------->| |-------->| Relying Party = Y | '--------------' '------------' = `-------------------' .--------------. other ^ | other = .-------------------. | Attester-E |------------' '----------->| Relying Party = Z | '--------------' = `-------------------' Figure 7: Multiple Attesters and Relying Parties with Different --Apple-Mail=_241E88BF-24EF-40C8-8055-D0E8E48EC732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = current architecture document has a serialization formats diagrams that = I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below.

Such a plethora of serialization formats, many of which are = cannot be converted between, seems counter to IETF interoperability. = Don=E2=80=99t we want to minimize formats?

Top of my list would be strong = preference for JWT for attestation results returned by web-based = attestation services. 

Next would be preference for CWT for evidence, with JWT as = second.

I can = see maybe creating a mapping document that says how to encode the CDDL = in EAT to ASN.1 for X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see that as a mainline = activity.

Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be appropriate to call out the TPM format = as fixed and owned by the TCG?

In the case of local verifiers, the = format becomes a very local issue and less an IETF interoperability = concern.


Basically, it seems RATS should adopt a = goal and strategy to maximize interoperability here.

LL





                       =
Evidence           Attestation Results

       .--------------.   CWT                    CWT   =
.-------------------.
       |  Attester-A  |------------.      .----------->|  Relying =
Party V  |
       '--------------'            v      |            =
`-------------------'
       .--------------.   JWT   .------------.   JWT   =
.-------------------.
       |  Attester-B  |-------->|  Verifier  |-------->|  Relying =
Party W  |
       '--------------'         |            |         =
`-------------------'
       .--------------.  X.509  |            |  X.509  =
.-------------------.
       |  Attester-C  |-------->|            |-------->|  Relying =
Party X  |
       '--------------'         |            |         =
`-------------------'
       .--------------.   TPM   |            |   TPM   =
.-------------------.
       |  Attester-D  |-------->|            |-------->|  Relying =
Party Y  |
       '--------------'         '------------'         =
`-------------------'
       .--------------.  other     ^      |     other  =
.-------------------.
       |  Attester-E  |------------'      '----------->|  Relying =
Party Z  |
       '--------------'                                =
`-------------------'

      Figure 7: Multiple Attesters and Relying Parties with =
Different



= --Apple-Mail=_241E88BF-24EF-40C8-8055-D0E8E48EC732-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 12:04:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0A03A0894 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Aor3zU0Z9EFV for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga18.intel.com (mga18.intel.com [134.134.136.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7B453A0857 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:04:26 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga006.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.51]) by orsmga106.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Mar 2020 12:04:25 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,511,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="243706794" Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.7]) by orsmga006.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 03 Mar 2020 12:04:25 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.206]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:04:25 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsements Thread-Index: AQHV8Y+3lq/AUeJl3EGfLaoch38qLKg3Sr8A Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:04:24 +0000 Message-ID: <01DA772E-6E72-42D6-A7F2-57A45A05E867@intel.com> References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5BD0FAC60763C74E97B8E18B7A567492@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:04:36 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIG1vc3Qgb2Ygd2hhdCBMYXVyZW5jZSBoYXMgY2FwdHVyZWQgYmVsb3cuIEkg YWxzbyBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBjYWxsIHRvIGFjdGlvbiB0aGF0IHRoZSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUg c2hvdWxkIHNheSBzb21ldGhpbmcgYWJvdXQgRW5kb3JzZW1lbnQuIEl0IHdhcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQg Zm9yIHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlIHRoYXQgdGhlIFdHIGNoYXJ0ZXIgZXhjbHVkZSBFbmRvcnNlbWVudCBi 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cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgZHJhZnQgb24gRW5kb3JzZW1lbnRzLg0KDQpMTA0KDQoNCg0KX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NClJBVFMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQpSQVRTQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Jh dHMNCg== From nobody Tue Mar 3 12:19:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50DD3A08B6 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnRLv1aLglyq for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga12.intel.com (mga12.intel.com [192.55.52.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04FC33A08B3 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:19:06 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by fmsmga106.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Mar 2020 12:19:06 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,511,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="274366231" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 03 Mar 2020 12:19:06 -0800 Received: from orsmsx113.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.9) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:19:06 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX113.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.183]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:19:06 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEA Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:19:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.22] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E0AE76F48AAE427BAF76E5AB3CA66070intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:19:09 -0000 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v2QN7+eWfrOQYESOC8ebiyZASGvzW6GbwtA1kEYGzUw=; b=MSti2W7+WwoJONKbiJ2YRVBQoxdA+1UPTpqKGi57bDlJkZ9HuEUtd6EZQxAR+IxkJ0 dBIQMUaKMZN66g7DQnJrUicnsxYDyVAteX3+DWIf92X0Vo0Xlc/s1WHYgCKZN6yjX9Jh tB/Hj9dkExJsfIxMcP9+PdDR7RnUq5AzQy3lIgIIQtr1JeDopzsu12fzVfJOrvwrZNNe 45KQ3VI3gpPAyl3aUpcD5bm8+mJuDyD0ysNnZ0RA1lfzB/vYS6QT52X6oTHKXD+RPKAt OWxgE4tqbqAKBZGa4rg4dR1MA1Y0bwUZcAIbHNGPpQdAzcXBDvhqvPiHMxs3FHv451ON MJiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v2QN7+eWfrOQYESOC8ebiyZASGvzW6GbwtA1kEYGzUw=; b=rW/Qq7UvV7Yu84tFHh1y43M5PTvw6FUbcfS9Kp9nb2j2dmSvGMwVT/3CczJT9c34eY trmmkppGu2oVcPrIk7vl7RAlI0pKDHoH1kl/IVoblYBLtxx+j3lgSyY7YsB1KCHxb/EA gvoCY6qjd1j8/L4CsZYDipQxj54QFZ43mTgFFOGNxncldOn3tdz85yp8qTxExAPPsFjL oZC1VhSgdryRgEWgHXB03p25do72zxxX9fLwxNQsna57yBumV1oTsrIw8o7U/c73be85 3UIDzcCPgH07bPCHnDqTQHEavn5bjhF6xrWE1fhsDRO0lPuV82JH8iZodzY3zD8x03Q/ jdLw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3QqNr2WZRXjhVdpPyfzltPaqTHIy/MSgPYXGpPegZms5uzb4XP h8IB2+fFzsUSw+AMGziCB10L5Cn9tKTmcG+YzqQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vti+3mqykND4zVqb7/IUiOiwkrubRyX9RPeu7F+wAg8dX3nyBXQ9bRqY9jpWRojSH/ZIXSzzc5oeo7KlCDIqBo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6050:: with SMTP id v16mr5044109otj.151.1583268748514; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 12:52:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 15:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Smith, Ned" Cc: Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056dc19059ff97bd8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:52:33 -0000 --00000000000056dc19059ff97bd8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laurence, Thank you for raising the discussion point. I agree that this is concerning, but I am more concerned with the development of additional serialization formats that are being developed. If there was a way to stop or slow it down, organizations hoping to benefit from the possible automation for assessment capabilities that come with attestation would be fantastic. I fear that it is becoming too complex to reach that goal. Having said that, Ned is right with the existing set. TPM has been around for a while and is here to stay. PKI has as well and the use cases that can be enabled with attribute certificates are important. In this list, that leave us with JWT and CWT, which have already been argued for with agreement. The other is where things become concerning for me. How many more are necessary? Can we as an industry try to to hang our hooks on a format and allow that to be the part we interoperate on to help customers and to keep their management environments as simple as we can, enabling interoperability between products and up a stack when one component relies upon another? This type of agreement has to be across industry though as some formats may be out of our purview. Best regards, Kathleen On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:19 PM Smith, Ned wrote: > The objective in creating the =E2=80=9Cbow tie=E2=80=9D diagram isn=E2=80= =99t to advocate > non-interoperability. It is to acknowledge that interoperability may > require significant effort given there are many ways to format/encode wha= t > is essentially the same or similar information. > > > > The =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in the bow tie diagram is significant as = there are many more > encodings currently in use today. > > > > The architecture doesn=E2=80=99t / can=E2=80=99t enforce the goal of univ= ersal > interoperability in part because it is a non-normative document. Even if = it > were normative and it had language that required a particular encoding. > There is no practical way the IETF could enforce compliance. An > architecture that hopes for interoperability by ignoring the other format= s > and encoding already in use doesn=E2=80=99t seem very realistic to me. It= is better > to acknowledge it, offer reasonable ways forward that are technically > sound, and make meaningful observations about how the goals of > interoperability, security, reliability, etc=E2=80=A6 can be better reali= zed if > there were fewer options. > > > > It will be up to the industry to figure out how to justify the cost > (economics). > > > > The industry has made infrastructure investments in PKI over many years. > Realistically, that investment will continue to be amortized for a long > time (unless something disruptive causes it to change). Similarly, the > industry has made infrastructure investments in TPMs and other HSM, TEE a= nd > SE technologies. There are replacement cycles that potentially replaces > them with something that is =E2=80=98more interoperable=E2=80=99 than cur= rent formats but > replacement cycles are not binary. There will be proprietary formats in u= se > for a long time into the future. That means Verifier(s) need to consider > the implications of the =E2=80=98bow tie=E2=80=99 figure for a long time = into the future > too. > > > > -Ned > > > > *From: *RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade < > lgl@island-resort.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:44 AM > *To: *"rats@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results > > > > The current architecture document has a serialization formats diagrams > that I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below. > > > > Such a plethora of serialization formats, many of which are cannot be > converted between, seems counter to IETF interoperability. Don=E2=80=99t = we want to > minimize formats? > > > > Top of my list would be strong preference for JWT for attestation results > returned by web-based attestation services. > > > > Next would be preference for CWT for evidence, with JWT as second. > > > > I can see maybe creating a mapping document that says how to encode the > CDDL in EAT to ASN.1 for X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see that as a mainlin= e activity. > > > > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be appropriate to call out the TPM format as fixed an= d owned > by the TCG? > > > > In the case of local verifiers, the format becomes a very local issue and > less an IETF interoperability concern. > > > > > > Basically, it seems RATS should adopt a goal and strategy to maximize > interoperability here. > > > > LL > > > > > > > > > > > > Evidence Attestation Results > > > > .--------------. CWT CWT ..----------------= ---. > > | Attester-A |------------. .----------->| Relying Party V= | > > '--------------' v | `-----------------= --' > > .--------------. JWT .------------. JWT ..----------------= ---. > > | Attester-B |-------->| Verifier |-------->| Relying Party W= | > > '--------------' | | `-----------------= --' > > .--------------. X.509 | | X.509 ..----------------= ---. > > | Attester-C |-------->| |-------->| Relying Party X= | > > '--------------' | | `-----------------= --' > > .--------------. TPM | | TPM ..----------------= ---. > > | Attester-D |-------->| |-------->| Relying Party Y= | > > '--------------' '------------' `-----------------= --' > > .--------------. other ^ | other ..----------------= ---. > > | Attester-E |------------' '----------->| Relying Party Z= | > > '--------------' `-----------------= --' > > > > Figure 7: Multiple Attesters and Relying Parties with Different > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000056dc19059ff97bd8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Laurence,

Thank you for raising the dis= cussion point.=C2=A0 I agree that this is concerning, but I am more concern= ed with the development of additional serialization formats that are being = developed.=C2=A0 If there was a way to stop or slow it down, organizations = hoping to benefit from the possible automation for assessment capabilities = that come with attestation would be fantastic.=C2=A0 I fear that it is beco= ming too complex to reach that goal.=C2=A0 Having said that, Ned is right w= ith the existing set.

TPM has been around for a wh= ile and is here to stay.=C2=A0 PKI has as well and the use cases that can b= e enabled with attribute certificates are important.=C2=A0 In this list, th= at leave us with JWT and CWT, which have already been argued for with agree= ment.=C2=A0 The other is where things become concerning for me.=C2=A0 How m= any more are necessary?=C2=A0 Can we as an industry try to to hang our hook= s on a format and allow that to be the part we interoperate on to help cust= omers and to keep their management environments=C2=A0as simple as we can, e= nabling interoperability between products and up a stack when one component= relies upon another?=C2=A0 This type of agreement has to be across industr= y though as some formats may be out of our purview.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:19 PM Smit= h, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com&g= t; wrote:

= The objective in creating the =E2=80=9Cbow tie=E2=80=9D diagram isn=E2=80= =99t to advocate non-interoperability. It is to acknowledge that interopera= bility may require significant effort given there are many ways to format/e= ncode what is essentially the same or similar information. =

= =C2=A0

= The =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in the bow tie diagram is significant as th= ere are many more encodings currently in use today.

= =C2=A0

= The architecture doesn=E2=80=99t / can=E2=80=99t enforce the goal of univer= sal interoperability in part because it is a non-normative document. Even i= f it were normative and it had language that required a particular encoding. There is no practical way the IETF could enforce compliance. An = architecture that hopes for interoperability by ignoring the other formats = and encoding already in use doesn=E2=80=99t seem very realistic to me. It i= s better to acknowledge it, offer reasonable ways forward that are technically sound, and make meaningful observations = about how the goals of interoperability, security, reliability, etc=E2=80= =A6 can be better realized if there were fewer options.

= =C2=A0

= It will be up to the industry to figure out how to justify the cost (econom= ics).

= =C2=A0

= The industry has made infrastructure investments in PKI over many years. Re= alistically, that investment will continue to be amortized for a long time = (unless something disruptive causes it to change). Similarly, the industry has made infrastructure investments in TPMs and ot= her HSM, TEE and SE technologies. There are replacement cycles that potenti= ally replaces them with something that is =E2=80=98more interoperable=E2=80= =99 than current formats but replacement cycles are not binary. There will be proprietary formats in use for a long time i= nto the future. That means Verifier(s) need to consider the implications of= the =E2=80=98bow tie=E2=80=99 figure for a long time into the future too.<= u>

= =C2=A0

= -Ned

= =C2=A0

From: = RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:44 AM
To: "rats@ie= tf.org" <rat= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results=

=C2=A0

The current architecture document has a serializatio= n formats diagrams that I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below.

=C2=A0

Such a plethora of serialization formats, many of wh= ich are cannot be converted between, seems counter to IETF interoperability= . Don=E2=80=99t we want to minimize formats?

=C2=A0

Top of my list would be strong preference for JWT fo= r attestation results returned by web-based attestation services.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

Next would be preference for CWT for evidence, with = JWT as second.

=C2=A0

I can see maybe creating a mapping document that say= s how to encode the CDDL in EAT to ASN.1 for X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see= that as a mainline activity.

=C2=A0

Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be appropriate to call out the T= PM format as fixed and owned by the TCG?

=C2=A0

In the case of local verifiers, the format becomes a= very local issue and less an IETF interoperability concern.<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Basically, it seems RATS should adopt a goal and str= ategy to maximize interoperability here.

=C2=A0

LL

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Evidence=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Attestation Results
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .--------------.=C2=A0=C2=A0 CWT=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 CWT=C2=A0=C2=A0 ..-----------------=
--.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Attester-A=C2=A0 |-------=
-----.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .----------->|=C2=A0 Relying Party =
V=C2=A0 |
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '--------------'=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 v=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 `-------------------'
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .--------------.=C2=A0=C2=A0 JWT=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 .------------.=C2=A0=C2=A0 JWT=C2=A0=C2=A0 ..-----------------=
--.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Attester-B=C2=A0 |-------=
->|=C2=A0 Verifier=C2=A0 |-------->|=C2=A0 Relying Party W=C2=A0 |=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '--------------'=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 `-------------------'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0.--------------.=C2=A0 X.509=C2=
=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=
=C2=A0 X.509=C2=A0 ..-------------------.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Attester-C=C2=A0 |-------=
->|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |-=
------->|=C2=A0 Relying Party X=C2=A0 |
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '--------------'=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 `-------------------'
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .--------------.=C2=A0=C2=A0 TPM=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0 TPM=C2=A0=C2=A0 ..-------------------.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Attester-D=C2=A0 |-------=
->|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |-=
------->|=C2=A0 Relying Party Y=C2=A0 |


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '--------------'=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '------------'=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 `-------------------'


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .--------------.=C2=A0 other=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ^=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 other=C2=A0 ..-------------------.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Attester-E=C2=A0 |-------=
-----'=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '----------->|=C2=A0 Relyin=
g Party Z=C2=A0 |


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 '--------------'=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 `-------------------'


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Figure 7: Multiple Attesters and Relyin=
g Parties with Different




=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--00000000000056dc19059ff97bd8-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 13:06:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367C53A0996 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:06:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id psbzXDxJceA4 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga06.intel.com (mga06.intel.com [134.134.136.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34F413A0994 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:06:53 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga005.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.41]) by orsmga104.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Mar 2020 13:06:52 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,511,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="412892846" Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.130]) by orsmga005.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 03 Mar 2020 13:06:52 -0800 Received: from orsmsx124.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.120) by ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:06:51 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX124.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:06:51 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Giridhar Mandyam , Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsements Thread-Index: AQHV8Y+3lq/AUeJl3EGfLaoch38qLKg30eCA//+KUAA= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 21:06:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3544C96C3ED814408D874E5DB62051A7@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 21:06:56 -0000 UmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIEdpcmkncyBzdGF0ZW1lbnQ6ICJJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IGEgdmVyaWZpZXIg d291bGQgbm90IGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIHR3byB0eXBlcyBvZiB0b2tlbnMgdW5k ZXIgbW9zdCBhcHByYWlzYWwgcG9saWNpZXMiDQoNCkknbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB0aGlzIGludGVycHJl 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgUkFUUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCiAgICBS QVRTQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9y YXRzDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N CiAgICBSQVRTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3JhdHMNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Mar 3 23:53:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8313A0799 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:53:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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lhreml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:53:02 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.115]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:49:41 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00: Thread-Index: AdXx8RPykFU1XWevSie4UVB2F+eGbA== Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:49:41 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.46] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00: X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 07:53:14 -0000 --_004_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_" --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric, This draft is a good start in the direction about using remote attestation = for the end to end path calculation. The other interesting point is describ= ing the netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation. As promised, I have reviewed the document and have some comments as below: 1. About a formally defined trustworthiness level: I like it and thin= k current definition may be not enough. In addition to "boot-verified, unve= rified and compromised", there may be more like: system-verified, system-un= verified, "key file"/"key process"-verified, "key file"/"key process"-verif= ied, key-safe, key-unsafe... I don't want to complicate the definition, but= we may need to consider more, and their combination; 2. About Backward compatibility: we must consider the case that some = legacy devices in the network don't support the proposed new functions, whi= ch will result in a partial end to end trusted path (topology). For this as= pect, centralized way seems better than distributed way, since the hop by h= op EAP messages of the distributed way cannot be exchanged directly across = the legacy device. It's possibly a problem to be addressed; 3. About the fitness of RATS architecture for the Centralized Trusted= Path Routing: I think current 2 defined RATS architectures (background che= ck and passport) are both not very suitable for it. The Centralized Trusted= Path Routing mode is a little bit different from the RATS background check= architecture in terms of attester directly communicating with the verifier= . The RATS architecture can add some sentences to clarify this option; 4. Echo to 1, TPM PCR value should be the only input to assess the tr= ustworthiness of the target device, more claims can be considered. We can d= iscuss it along the draft iteration; 5. Too many verifiers in the Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: a= ccording to your current content, every device can be a verifier to request= the neighboring device's composite evidence. I think this design complicat= e the solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only need to be= the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in the compos= ite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each other's credential= and Know Good Values as being the role of verifier, which is very complex,= I think; 6. About netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation: a) I am not sure whether it's your intention, or it's just the begi= nning of this document, current document has not considered all the feature= s of netconf pub/sub and their applicability to remote attestation. For exa= mple, dynamic subscription, on-change subscription are described, configura= tion subscription, periodic subscription are not. The event stream and sele= ction filters are mainly about TPM PCR, not about other claims. We should d= iscuss it later, and my draft (draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-02) has more des= cription about them; b) Actually, the freshness check problem of netconf pub/sub model i= s not well addressed in this draft as well. We need to work more; Thanks! B.R. Frank [cid:image002.png@01D5F23C.82F324F0] This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWE= I, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed = above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, b= ut not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or disseminat= ion) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you = receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email im= mediately and delete it! --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Eric,

This draft is a good start in t= he direction about using remote attestation for the end to end path calcula= tion. The other interesting point is describing the netconf pub/sub model f= or remote attestation.

 

As promised, I have reviewed th= e document and have some comments as below:

1= .   &= nbsp;   About a formally define= d trustworthiness level: I like it and think current definition may be not = enough. In addition to “boot-verified, unverified and compromisedR= 21;, there may be more like: system-verified, system-unverified, “key file”/”key process”-verifi= ed, “key file”/”key process”-verified, key-safe, ke= y-unsafe… I don’t want to complicate the definition, but we may= need to consider more, and their combination;

=  

2= .   &= nbsp;   About Backward compatib= ility: we must consider the case that some legacy devices in the network do= n’t support the proposed new functions, which will result in a partia= l end to end trusted path (topology). For this aspect, centralized way seems better than distributed way, since the = hop by hop EAP messages of the distributed way cannot be exchanged directly= across the legacy device. It’s possibly a problem to be addressed;

 =

=  

3= .   &= nbsp;   About the fitness of RA= TS architecture for the Centralized Trusted Path Routing: I think current 2= defined RATS architectures (background check and passport) are both not ve= ry suitable for it. The Centralized Trusted Path Routing mode is a little bit different from the RATS backgrou= nd check architecture in terms of attester directly communicating with the = verifier. The RATS architecture can add some sentences to clarify this opti= on;

=  

4= .   &= nbsp;   Echo to 1, TPM PCR valu= e should be the only input to assess the trustworthiness of the target devi= ce, more claims can be considered. We can discuss it along the draft iterat= ion;

 =

=  

5= .   &= nbsp;   Too many verifiers in t= he Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: according to your current content= , every device can be a verifier to request the neighboring device’s = composite evidence. I think this design complicate the solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only = need to be the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in = the composite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each other= 217;s credential and Know Good Values as being the role of verifier, which is very complex, I think;<= /span>

=  

6= .   &= nbsp;   About netconf pub/sub m= odel for remote attestation:

a= )   &= nbsp;     I am not sure whether i= t’s your intention, or it’s just the beginning of this document= , current document has not considered all the features of netconf pub/sub a= nd their applicability to remote attestation. For example, dynamic subscription, on-change subscription are described, c= onfiguration subscription, periodic subscription are not. The event stream = and selection filters are mainly about TPM PCR, not about other claims. We = should discuss it later, and my draft (draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-02) has more description about them;

b= )   &= nbsp;     Actually, the freshness= check problem of netconf pub/sub model is not well addressed in this draft= as well. We need to work more;

 

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

This e-mail and its attachments= contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. A= ny use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not l= imited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by = persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please no= tify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!

 

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Aw5AnWCey+o44ADkZMBxoBMccADqBPNcVscBByAnA44DneCAA1AnmOeyOg44ADkZcBzoBAccgDrB PJfVceD/AQSPoE3wHlknAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --_004_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13ECAA367dggemm511mbxchi_-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 08:18:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4F63A121D for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:18:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uIkikn8k6ATG for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0F673A121C for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 9Wipj5KVJpBZZ9WipjDG9l; Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:18:11 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=IuZgj43g c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=AIQFnhTw1H4bIbBwCYsA:9 a=U4HC6OPaqsHvlap_:21 a=w_4O2NRZSL-vZt-w:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=RP90i5vL5L1KJ7NShwIA:9 a=TNdMZUVeIfdRtAwZ:21 a=SVKA79q3AIEWKeWt:21 a=IEdj36dxMmSEf-xf:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_495A66C8-7435-4E76-916B-1C1B955E8F49" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:18:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" To: Kathleen Moriarty References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNeQBHHuEhS0JFvVSzcLjQqDmvVqil3IICFUH0oXyafQD98pIre+rgG6RY81GwFDtYusPTXghN5TZt6Epb4JTWa/kNLH1iDJXp/aoNTaaKrHVUnocY5p Os4h2/483ROiNMNJvXq1tdHjs0qzNIP8HDiT4MAZh4bZ94tZxruKhlNm9z4lQD3fsVWZUzykeE4yE+xSAD5qphgupZ2vUvJRJo01Ev3+3At3R8w2u4+IaB07 Cy2FV1ilDolmXWd4d8xCqw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 16:18:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_495A66C8-7435-4E76-916B-1C1B955E8F49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99d like to see words like this somewhere in a RATS document, = maybe in the architecture document: For the sake of Interoperability, the JWT format is strongly preferred = for attestation results. If the Verifier is passing on any claims from = Attestation Evidence, then it should convert them to JWT format. Similarly, for the sake of Interoperability, the CWT and JWTs formats = are preferred for Attestation Evidence, though it is understood that in = many use cases other extant serialization formats will have to be used. LL > On Mar 3, 2020, at 12:51 PM, Kathleen Moriarty = wrote: >=20 > Laurence, >=20 > Thank you for raising the discussion point. I agree that this is = concerning, but I am more concerned with the development of additional = serialization formats that are being developed. If there was a way to = stop or slow it down, organizations hoping to benefit from the possible = automation for assessment capabilities that come with attestation would = be fantastic. I fear that it is becoming too complex to reach that = goal. Having said that, Ned is right with the existing set. >=20 > TPM has been around for a while and is here to stay. PKI has as well = and the use cases that can be enabled with attribute certificates are = important. In this list, that leave us with JWT and CWT, which have = already been argued for with agreement. The other is where things = become concerning for me. How many more are necessary? Can we as an = industry try to to hang our hooks on a format and allow that to be the = part we interoperate on to help customers and to keep their management = environments as simple as we can, enabling interoperability between = products and up a stack when one component relies upon another? This = type of agreement has to be across industry though as some formats may = be out of our purview. >=20 > Best regards, > Kathleen >=20 > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 3:19 PM Smith, Ned > wrote: > The objective in creating the =E2=80=9Cbow tie=E2=80=9D diagram = isn=E2=80=99t to advocate non-interoperability. It is to acknowledge = that interoperability may require significant effort given there are = many ways to format/encode what is essentially the same or similar = information. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in the bow tie diagram is significant = as there are many more encodings currently in use today. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The architecture doesn=E2=80=99t / can=E2=80=99t enforce the goal of = universal interoperability in part because it is a non-normative = document. Even if it were normative and it had language that required a = particular encoding. There is no practical way the IETF could enforce = compliance. An architecture that hopes for interoperability by ignoring = the other formats and encoding already in use doesn=E2=80=99t seem very = realistic to me. It is better to acknowledge it, offer reasonable ways = forward that are technically sound, and make meaningful observations = about how the goals of interoperability, security, reliability, etc=E2=80=A6= can be better realized if there were fewer options. >=20 > =20 >=20 > It will be up to the industry to figure out how to justify the cost = (economics). >=20 > =20 >=20 > The industry has made infrastructure investments in PKI over many = years. Realistically, that investment will continue to be amortized for = a long time (unless something disruptive causes it to change). = Similarly, the industry has made infrastructure investments in TPMs and = other HSM, TEE and SE technologies. There are replacement cycles that = potentially replaces them with something that is =E2=80=98more = interoperable=E2=80=99 than current formats but replacement cycles are = not binary. There will be proprietary formats in use for a long time = into the future. That means Verifier(s) need to consider the = implications of the =E2=80=98bow tie=E2=80=99 figure for a long time = into the future too. >=20 > =20 >=20 > -Ned >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: RATS > on = behalf of Laurence Lundblade > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:44 AM > To: "rats@ietf.org " > > Subject: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results >=20 > =20 >=20 > The current architecture document has a serialization formats diagrams = that I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Such a plethora of serialization formats, many of which are cannot be = converted between, seems counter to IETF interoperability. Don=E2=80=99t = we want to minimize formats? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Top of my list would be strong preference for JWT for attestation = results returned by web-based attestation services.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Next would be preference for CWT for evidence, with JWT as second. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I can see maybe creating a mapping document that says how to encode = the CDDL in EAT to ASN.1 for X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see that as a = mainline activity. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be appropriate to call out the TPM format as fixed = and owned by the TCG? >=20 > =20 >=20 > In the case of local verifiers, the format becomes a very local issue = and less an IETF interoperability concern. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Basically, it seems RATS should adopt a goal and strategy to maximize = interoperability here. >=20 > =20 >=20 > LL >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Evidence Attestation Results > =20 > .--------------. CWT CWT = ..-------------------. > | Attester-A |------------. .----------->| Relying = Party V | > '--------------' v | = `-------------------' > .--------------. JWT .------------. JWT = ..-------------------. > | Attester-B |-------->| Verifier |-------->| Relying = Party W | > '--------------' | | = `-------------------' > .--------------. X.509 | | X.509 = ..-------------------. > | Attester-C |-------->| |-------->| Relying = Party X | > '--------------' | | = `-------------------' > .--------------. TPM | | TPM = ..-------------------. > | Attester-D |-------->| |-------->| Relying = Party Y | > '--------------' '------------' = `-------------------' > .--------------. other ^ | other = ..-------------------. > | Attester-E |------------' '----------->| Relying = Party Z | > '--------------' = `-------------------' > =20 > Figure 7: Multiple Attesters and Relying Parties with Different > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best regards, > Kathleen --Apple-Mail=_495A66C8-7435-4E76-916B-1C1B955E8F49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80= =99d like to see words like this somewhere in a RATS document, maybe in = the architecture document:

For the sake of Interoperability, the JWT format is strongly = preferred for attestation results. If the Verifier is passing on any = claims from Attestation Evidence, then it should convert them to JWT = format.

Similarly, for the sake of Interoperability, the CWT and JWTs = formats are preferred for Attestation Evidence, though it is understood = that in many use cases other extant serialization formats will have to = be used.

LL


On Mar = 3, 2020, at 12:51 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Laurence,

Thank you for raising the discussion point.  I agree = that this is concerning, but I am more concerned with the development of = additional serialization formats that are being developed.  If = there was a way to stop or slow it down, organizations hoping to benefit = from the possible automation for assessment capabilities that come with = attestation would be fantastic.  I fear that it is becoming too = complex to reach that goal.  Having said that, Ned is right with = the existing set.

TPM has been around for a while and is here to stay.  = PKI has as well and the use cases that can be enabled with attribute = certificates are important.  In this list, that leave us with JWT = and CWT, which have already been argued for with agreement.  The = other is where things become concerning for me.  How many more are = necessary?  Can we as an industry try to to hang our hooks on a = format and allow that to be the part we interoperate on to help = customers and to keep their management environments as simple as we = can, enabling interoperability between products and up a stack when one = component relies upon another?  This type of agreement has to be = across industry though as some formats may be out of our = purview.

Best = regards,
Kathleen

On Tue, Mar = 3, 2020 at 3:19 PM Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

The objective in creating the =E2=80=9Cbow tie=E2=80=9D = diagram isn=E2=80=99t to advocate non-interoperability. It is to = acknowledge that interoperability may require significant effort given = there are many ways to format/encode what is essentially the same or similar information.

 

The =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D in the bow tie diagram is = significant as there are many more encodings currently in use today.

 

The architecture doesn=E2=80=99t / can=E2=80=99t enforce the = goal of universal interoperability in part because it is a non-normative = document. Even if it were normative and it had language that required a = particular encoding. There is no practical way the IETF could enforce compliance. = An architecture that hopes for interoperability by ignoring the other = formats and encoding already in use doesn=E2=80=99t seem very realistic = to me. It is better to acknowledge it, offer reasonable ways forward that are technically sound, and make meaningful = observations about how the goals of interoperability, security, = reliability, etc=E2=80=A6 can be better realized if there were fewer = options.

 

It will be up to the industry to figure out how to justify = the cost (economics).

 

The industry has made infrastructure investments in PKI over = many years. Realistically, that investment will continue to be amortized = for a long time (unless something disruptive causes it to change). Similarly, the industry has made infrastructure investments in TPMs and = other HSM, TEE and SE technologies. There are replacement cycles that = potentially replaces them with something that is =E2=80=98more = interoperable=E2=80=99 than current formats but replacement cycles are not binary. There will be proprietary formats in use for a long = time into the future. That means Verifier(s) need to consider the = implications of the =E2=80=98bow tie=E2=80=99 figure for a long time = into the future too.

 

-Ned

 

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of = Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 at 11:44 AM
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation = results

 

The current architecture document has a = serialization formats diagrams that I=E2=80=99ve pasted in below.

 

Such a plethora of serialization = formats, many of which are cannot be converted between, seems counter to = IETF interoperability. Don=E2=80=99t we want to minimize formats?

 

Top of my list would be strong = preference for JWT for attestation results returned by web-based = attestation services. 

 

Next would be preference for CWT = for evidence, with JWT as second.

 

I can see maybe creating a = mapping document that says how to encode the CDDL in EAT to ASN.1 for = X.509, but I don=E2=80=99t see that as a mainline activity.

 

Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be = appropriate to call out the TPM format as fixed and owned by the TCG?

 

In the case of local verifiers, = the format becomes a very local issue and less an IETF interoperability = concern.

 

 

Basically, it seems RATS should = adopt a goal and strategy to maximize interoperability here.

 

LL

 

 

 

 

 

          &nb=
sp;            =
Evidence           =
Attestation Results
 
       =
.--------------.   =
CWT            =
;        CWT   =
..-------------------.
       |  =
Attester-A  |------------.      =
.----------->|  Relying Party V  |
       =
'--------------'         &nbs=
p;  v      =
|            =
`-------------------'
       =
.--------------.   JWT   .------------.   =
JWT   ..-------------------.
       |  =
Attester-B  |-------->|  Verifier  =
|-------->|  Relying Party W  |
       =
'--------------'         =
|            =
|         =
`-------------------'
  =
     .--------------.  X.509  =
|            =
|  X.509  ..-------------------.
       |  =
Attester-C  =
|-------->|          =
  |-------->|  Relying Party X  |
       =
'--------------'         =
|            =
|         =
`-------------------'
       =
.--------------.   TPM   =
|            =
|   TPM   ..-------------------.
       |  =
Attester-D  =
|-------->|          =
  |-------->|  Relying Party Y  |
       =
'--------------'         =
'------------'         =
`-------------------'
       =
.--------------.  other     =
^      |     other  =
..-------------------.
       |  =
Attester-E  |------------'      =
'----------->|  Relying Party Z  |
       =
'--------------'         &nbs=
p;            =
          =
`-------------------'
 
      Figure 7: Multiple =
Attesters and Relying Parties with Different

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--

Best regards,
Kathleen

= --Apple-Mail=_495A66C8-7435-4E76-916B-1C1B955E8F49-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 09:18:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50B73A12F0 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:18:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zby5hKD20veV for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2BEA3A1336 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 9XehjYdzH5t1E9XeijgQCj; Wed, 04 Mar 2020 10:18:00 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=d9CLNirE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=EUspDBNiAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=o2BGWQ0Ao_cLcj3skO4A:9 a=l-lu7_FvoHaVzSHh:21 a=HAQDOhdy7_VnCB32:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=JjcLIXk0RFjz_hUwzBkA:9 a=UrXxP7xzpKbLxHeI:21 a=yALLdBMmyNuaWMgU:21 a=Q8geJfxVa6ZBZsp5:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=rMCfJy6NHDicN4J276Yl:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B09E1606-79D1-4EC7-AFDD-045C7D56FE56" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:17:59 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGBXSgjrD525KEFq+uZxIEI+CJhV33Wh99U12RzDVNQ49pAfUvznOX6yjnm4bXXN3SncI5rUPqhE/Q0GEtHMi7V8eeiwqSaoxefD7CWd0iuatx6V1oDg sgL14FVyjA49OsXuXtEBeYpVtYraCLPEi921iui2WwIDjmL3GdloS5P0MBC8Ml88ZvoIT2Kdl3Ub21NqJ4m0X+8KsrF/YBDB+oucJ1aAbgmur9eZ4sXFQCR+ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 17:18:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B09E1606-79D1-4EC7-AFDD-045C7D56FE56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:06 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Referring to Giri's statement: "It seems that a verifier would not = distinguish between the two types of tokens under most appraisal = policies" >=20 > I'm not sure this interpretation is correct. The Verifier depends on = appraisal policy that identifies trust anchors (public keys) that are = deemed "trusted". Trust anchor policies could identify a public key pair = that was embedded in a device as the anchor. Or it could identify a = supply chain entity that claims to have embedded a key pair (and the = Verifier policy doesn't yet know / trust the embedded key).=20 >=20 > Endorsement is the ability for a supply chain entity to assert more = claims about the Attesting device than could be asserted by the = Attester. Clearly, the Endorsement would need to be signed by the supply = chain entity and the Verifier would need to have a policy that trusts = the supply chain entity in order for it to adopt endorsements (claims = about the device not included in the Evidence) into the verification = step. I think Endorsement is the primary way a Verifier knows to trust an = Attester. It does allow for more claims to about the device (implied = claims) but it more fundamental than just adding claims. I also don=E2=80=99t think Endorsements need to be signed. They just = have to be conveyed to the Verifier in a secure way. If the Verifier and = Endorser are the same company, the chip vendor, it might just be because = some system admin manually types them into the Verifier. >=20 > Endorsement claims could be applied even if no attestation Evidence is = supplied. The Verifier has to be confident the endpoint is a device that = matches the supply chain entity asserted claims. The Verifier might = build reputation in a device key over time or it might require use of a = key that was embedded by a manufacturer. How the Verifier becomes = convinced that the key is bound to the device is an open question. There = are many possibilities. However, a way that industry seems to be = following is for the device mfg to embed the key and issue a = certificate. There are lots of names for this: IDevID, mfg certificate, = endorsement key credential etc...=20 This is interesting.=20 A self-signed token might have somewhat more value than an unsigned = token. If you assume that the signing key is at least somewhat = protected, you can decide you trust it on first use (TOFU) or build up = trust in it over time, or have your machine learning system take it into = account. >=20 > The term "un|endorsed token" can be misleading because the operation = that links the mfg (endorser) to the token is the embedded signing key = and the device in which it was embedded. It makes more sense to say the = 'device' or the 'embedded key' is/isn't endorsed than to say the token = is/isn't endorsed.=20 Agreed.=20 I prefer endorsed / unendorsed attester and sign / unsigned token. No = use of "unendorsed token=E2=80=9D in Rats. I would really like to see a strong relation between Endorser and = Attester expressed in the architecture document.=20 The Attester is Endorsed. Then the Attester Collects Claims to create = Evidence about the Target / Device. The Verify only knows to trust the = Attester based receiving and Endorsement for the Attester. Once the = trusts the Attester, then it trusts the Claims in the Evidence created = by said Attester.=20 Or if you have an Attester doing self-signed, then there is no = Endorsement and you rely on TOFU or ML for trust. Or if you have an Attester producing unsigned tokens, then there you are = on your own as to how they are secured and how you figure out the = Endorsement. LL >=20 > An "endorsed token" could be easily confused with an Endorsement = (claims expressed as a CWT) signed by an "Endorser" aka supply chain = entity / manufacturer. This is also an 'endorsed token' but the = architecture would call it "Endorsements" not "Evidence". The thread on = "un|endorsed token" could (if I understand it correctly) also refer to = Evidence where the CWT is signed by a key that was/wasn't embedded by a = manufacturer but protected by the device?=20 >=20 > Given it is out of scope to define a format/encoding in RATS for = Endorsements, the term "endorsed token" that refers to an Endorsement = flow would never reasonably be a topic of discussion. But the = architecture doesn't artificially restrict Endorsement formats from = being CWT or JWT. If "endorsed" means "signed by an Endorser" then = claims un|signed by a mfg and encoded as a CWT/JWT could be referred to = as an "un|endorsed token". But that would conflict with its current = usage as Evidence.=20 >=20 > Since the Verifier treats Evidence and Endorsements differently it = doesn't make sense to equate them. >=20 > If the semantics of the term "endorsed token" means a token that was = signed by a key that was embedded in a device by a manufacturer that is = trusted based on its PKI trust anchor (public key). Then I agree the = term can be useful. But I don't (at present) believe it makes sense to = make it a part of the terminology in the architecture. An expression = like this is a statement of policy that a Verifier might seek to = enforce. The architecture should remain policy neutral IMHO.=20 >=20 > -Ned >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/3/20, 12:08 PM, "RATS on behalf of Giridhar Mandyam" = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Laurence. >=20 > Going back to the discussion on the virtual interim, I believe my = usage of the term "Unendorsed" Token is correct assuming that the = architecture document adopts the description provided below. An = unsigned token is by extension unendorsed. A signed token can be = unendorsed as well, e.g. = https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation. It seems that a = verifier would not distinguish between the two types of tokens under = most appraisal policies. >=20 > -Giri >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 11:12 AM > To: rats@ietf.org > Subject: [Rats] Endorsements >=20 > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Closing the loop on trust between the Attester and Verifier has = always seemed critical to me in Rats architecture. It is in all my = diagrams. There has to be some out-of-band interaction akin to CA=E2=80=99= s giving certificates to browser vendors or it doesn=E2=80=99t work. = =46rom conversations in Berlin, I now understand this is through = Endorsements. Here=E2=80=99s how I think it works. Does this seem right? >=20 >=20 > Endorsements are critical and integral in the Rats architecture. An = Endorsement is the Verifier=E2=80=99s sole basis for trusting the = Attester. >=20 > A minimal endorsement includes a key to verify signatures on the = Attestation Evidence and some information about the vendor backing the = endorsement, the Endorser, perhaps just the name of the vendor or = perhaps a lot more. >=20 > In some use cases the Endorser may operate the Verifier. For = example, a chip vendor may operate an only verification service for = attestations from its chip. >=20 > Endorsements and Endorsers are of interest to the Relying Party = because it tells them something about how they might trust the Evidence. = For example, if the Endorser is a highly reputable chip vendor, they may = trust it quite a lot. If it is an unknown SW vendor, they may not trust = it much at all. >=20 > The Endorser will be the manufacturer of the Attester in some = cases. This manufacturer will make the HW and SW that make up the = Attester. They will put the signing keys into the Attester. They will = build a database of the corresponding public keys that are eventually = supplied to the Verifier in the form of Endorsements. >=20 > In other cases the Endorser might be an independent trust broker = and/or certification house. They don=E2=80=99t make the Attester, but = they know who did and qualify them in some way. They may do this for = many Attester vendors as an aggregation service. >=20 > The Relying Party comes to trust the Endorser through some = out-of-band process that is not specified in the Rats architecture. It = is most likely transitive through the Verifier. The Relying Party = decided to trust the Verifier and the Verifier decides to trust the = Endorser. >=20 > The mechanisms of out-of-band trust establishment is likely to be = through X.509 certificates, perhaps with TLS. The policy basis for trust = establishment may involve business decisions, legal agreements and = reputations. For example, a Relying Party may decide to trust prominent = chip vendors or device just by their reputation. In another example, a = Verification service may accept click-through legal agreements set up = Endorsements for a particular vendor. >=20 > In Android Attestation, Google is the Endorser. The Attester = manufacturers are the handset vendors and their suppliers. Google makes = the attestation keys and distributes them one to handset manufacturers = that generally comply with Google=E2=80=99s requirements. Google is also = the Verifier because they provide an only verification service. The = trust establishment between Endorser and Verifier is trivial because = they are the same. The Relying Party trusts Google because they are so = well known through TLS certificates. >=20 > For FIDO, the FIDO Alliance is the Endorser. Individual FIDO = Authenticator manufacturers (e.g. handset vendors) generate the = attestation keys, sign them into X.509 certificates and perhaps form a = certificate hierarchy. They send the root of this certificate hierarchy = to the FIDO Alliance which publishes them on their web site. In FIDO, = the Verifier is typically the Relying Party, so they take in all = necessary X.509 certificates to be able to verify all the way down to = the key uses to sign the Attestation Evidence. The FIDO Alliance also = supplies other information in the Endorsement, such as certification = status and various Authenticator characteristics (I=E2=80=99m equating = the FIDO Metadata service to an Endorsement service). >=20 >=20 > Assuming this is right, it seems more could be added architecture = draft on Endorsements. >=20 > LL >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B09E1606-79D1-4EC7-AFDD-045C7D56FE56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:06 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

Referring to Giri's statement: "It seems that a verifier = would not distinguish between the two types of tokens under most = appraisal policies"

I'm not sure this = interpretation is correct. The Verifier depends on appraisal policy that = identifies trust anchors (public keys) that are deemed "trusted". Trust = anchor policies could identify a public key pair that was embedded in a = device as the anchor. Or it could identify a supply chain entity that = claims to have embedded a key pair (and the Verifier policy doesn't yet = know / trust the embedded key).

Endorsement = is the ability for a supply chain entity to assert more claims about the = Attesting device than could be asserted by the Attester. Clearly, the = Endorsement would need to be signed by the supply chain entity and the = Verifier would need to have a policy that trusts the supply chain entity = in order for it to adopt endorsements (claims about the device not = included in the Evidence) into the verification step.

I = think Endorsement is the primary way a Verifier knows to trust an = Attester. It does allow for more claims to about the device (implied = claims) but it more fundamental than just adding claims.

I also don=E2=80=99t think Endorsements need to be = signed. They just have to be conveyed to the Verifier in a secure way. = If the Verifier and Endorser are the same company, the chip vendor, it = might just be because some system admin manually types them into the = Verifier.



Endorsement claims could be applied even if no attestation = Evidence is supplied. The Verifier has to be confident the endpoint is a = device that matches the supply chain entity asserted claims. The = Verifier might build reputation in a device key over time or it might = require use of a key that was embedded by a manufacturer. How the = Verifier becomes convinced that the key is bound to the device is an = open question. There are many possibilities. However, a way that = industry seems to be following is for the device mfg to embed the key = and issue a certificate. There are lots of names for this: IDevID, mfg = certificate, endorsement key credential etc...

This = is interesting. 

A self-signed = token might have somewhat more value than an unsigned token. If you = assume that the signing key is at least somewhat protected, you can = decide you trust it on first use (TOFU) or build up trust in it over = time, or have your machine learning system take it into = account.


The term "un|endorsed token" = can be misleading because the operation that links the mfg (endorser) to = the token is the embedded signing key and the device in which it was = embedded. It makes more sense to say the 'device' or the 'embedded key' = is/isn't endorsed than to say the token is/isn't endorsed.

Agreed. 

I = prefer endorsed / unendorsed attester and sign / = unsigned token. No use of "unendorsed token=E2=80=9D = in Rats.

I would really like to see = a strong relation between Endorser and Attester expressed in the = architecture document. 

The = Attester is Endorsed. Then the Attester Collects Claims to create = Evidence about the Target / Device. The Verify only knows to trust the = Attester based receiving and Endorsement for the Attester. Once the = trusts the Attester, then it trusts the Claims in the Evidence created = by said Attester. 

Or if you = have an Attester doing self-signed, then there is no Endorsement and you = rely on TOFU or ML for trust.

Or if = you have an Attester producing unsigned tokens, then there you are on = your own as to how they are secured and how you figure out the = Endorsement.

LL



An "endorsed = token" could be easily confused with an Endorsement (claims expressed as = a CWT) signed by an "Endorser" aka supply chain entity / manufacturer. = This is also an 'endorsed token' but the architecture would call it = "Endorsements" not "Evidence". The thread on "un|endorsed token" could = (if I understand it correctly) also refer to Evidence where the CWT is = signed by a key that was/wasn't embedded by a manufacturer but protected = by the device?

Given it is out of scope to = define a format/encoding in RATS for Endorsements, the term "endorsed = token" that refers to an Endorsement flow would never reasonably be a = topic of discussion. But the architecture doesn't artificially restrict = Endorsement formats from being CWT or JWT. If "endorsed" means "signed = by an Endorser" then claims un|signed by a mfg and encoded as a CWT/JWT = could be referred to as an "un|endorsed token". But that would conflict = with its current usage as Evidence.

Since = the Verifier treats Evidence and Endorsements differently it doesn't = make sense to equate them.

If the semantics = of the term "endorsed token" means a token that was signed by a key that = was embedded in a device by a manufacturer that is trusted based on its = PKI trust anchor (public key). Then I agree the term can be useful. But = I don't (at present) believe it makes sense to make it a part of the = terminology in the architecture. An expression like this is a statement = of policy that a Verifier might seek to enforce. The architecture should = remain policy neutral IMHO.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/3/20, 12:08 PM, "RATS on behalf = of Giridhar Mandyam" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:

   Thanks Laurence.

   Going back to the discussion on the = virtual interim, I believe my usage of the term "Unendorsed" Token is = correct assuming that the architecture document adopts the description = provided below.  An unsigned token is by extension unendorsed. =  A signed token can be unendorsed as well, e.g. https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation. =  It seems that a verifier would not distinguish between the two = types of tokens under most appraisal policies.

   -Giri

=    -----Original Message-----
=    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Laurence = Lundblade
   Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 = 11:12 AM
   To: rats@ietf.org
=    Subject: [Rats] Endorsements

=    --------------------------------------------------------= -----------------
   CAUTION: This email = originated from outside of the organization.
=    --------------------------------------------------------= -----------------

=    Closing the loop on trust between the Attester and = Verifier has always seemed critical to me in Rats architecture. It is in = all my diagrams. There has to be some out-of-band interaction akin to = CA=E2=80=99s giving certificates to browser vendors or it doesn=E2=80=99t = work. =46rom conversations in Berlin, I now understand this is through = Endorsements. Here=E2=80=99s how I think it works. Does this seem = right?


=    Endorsements are critical and integral in the Rats = architecture. An Endorsement is the Verifier=E2=80=99s sole basis for = trusting the Attester.

   A = minimal endorsement includes a key to verify signatures on the = Attestation Evidence and some information about the vendor backing the = endorsement, the Endorser, perhaps just the name of the vendor or = perhaps a lot more.

   In = some use cases the Endorser may operate the Verifier. For example, a = chip vendor may operate an only verification service for attestations = from its chip.

=    Endorsements and Endorsers are of interest to the = Relying Party because it tells them something about how they might trust = the Evidence. For example, if the Endorser is a highly reputable chip = vendor, they may trust it quite a lot. If it is an unknown SW vendor, = they may not trust it much at all.

=    The Endorser will be the manufacturer of the Attester = in some cases. This manufacturer will make the HW and SW that make up = the Attester. They will put the signing keys into the Attester. They = will build a database of the corresponding public keys that are = eventually supplied to the Verifier in the form of Endorsements.

   In other cases the Endorser = might be an independent trust broker and/or certification house. They = don=E2=80=99t make the Attester, but they know who did and qualify them = in some way. They may do this for many Attester vendors as an = aggregation service.

   The = Relying Party comes to trust the Endorser through some out-of-band = process that is not specified in the Rats architecture. It is most = likely transitive through the Verifier. The Relying Party decided to = trust the Verifier and the Verifier decides to trust the Endorser.

   The mechanisms of = out-of-band trust establishment is likely to be through X.509 = certificates, perhaps with TLS. The policy basis for trust establishment = may involve business decisions, legal agreements and reputations. For = example, a Relying Party may decide to trust prominent chip vendors or = device just by their reputation. In another example, a Verification = service may accept click-through legal agreements set up Endorsements = for a particular vendor.

=    In Android Attestation, Google is the Endorser. The = Attester manufacturers are the handset vendors and their suppliers. = Google makes the attestation keys and distributes them one to handset = manufacturers that generally comply with Google=E2=80=99s requirements. = Google is also the Verifier because they provide an only verification = service. The trust establishment between Endorser and Verifier is = trivial because they are the same.  The Relying Party trusts Google = because they are so well known through TLS certificates.
   For FIDO, the FIDO Alliance is the = Endorser. Individual FIDO Authenticator manufacturers (e.g. handset = vendors) generate the attestation keys, sign them into X.509 = certificates and perhaps form a certificate hierarchy. They send the = root of this certificate hierarchy to the FIDO Alliance which publishes = them on their web site. In FIDO, the Verifier is typically the Relying = Party, so they take in all necessary X.509 certificates to be able to = verify all the way down to the key uses to sign the Attestation = Evidence. The FIDO Alliance also supplies other information in the = Endorsement, such as certification status and various Authenticator = characteristics (I=E2=80=99m equating the FIDO Metadata service to an = Endorsement service).


=    Assuming this is right, it seems more could be added = architecture draft on Endorsements.

=    LL



=    _______________________________________________
   RATS mailing list
=    RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
=    _______________________________________________
   RATS mailing list
=    RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR08MB3579 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:32:51 -0000 T24gMDQvMDMvMjAyMCwgMTY6MTgsICJMYXVyZW5jZSBMdW5kYmxhZGUiIDxsZ2xAaXNsYW5kLXJl c29ydC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPg0KPiBJ4oCZZCBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSB3b3JkcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMg c29tZXdoZXJlIGluIGEgUkFUUyBkb2N1bWVudCwgbWF5YmUgaW4NCj4gdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVy ZSBkb2N1bWVudDoNCj4NCj4gRm9yIHRoZSBzYWtlIG9mIEludGVyb3BlcmFiaWxpdHksIHRoZSBK V1QgZm9ybWF0IGlzIHN0cm9uZ2x5IHByZWZlcnJlZA0KPiBmb3IgYXR0ZXN0YXRpb24gcmVzdWx0 cy4gSWYgdGhlIFZlcmlmaWVyIGlzIHBhc3Npbmcgb24gYW55IGNsYWltcyBmcm9tDQo+IEF0dGVz dGF0aW9uIEV2aWRlbmNlLCB0aGVuIGl0IHNob3VsZCBjb252ZXJ0IHRoZW0gdG8gSldUIGZvcm1h dC4NCj4NCj4gU2ltaWxhcmx5LCBmb3IgdGhlIHNha2Ugb2YgSW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSwgdGhl IENXVCBhbmQgSldUcyBmb3JtYXRzDQo+IGFyZSBwcmVmZXJyZWQgZm9yIEF0dGVzdGF0aW9uIEV2 aWRlbmNlLCB0aG91Z2ggaXQgaXMgdW5kZXJzdG9vZCB0aGF0DQo+IGluIG1hbnkgdXNlIGNhc2Vz IG90aGVyIGV4dGFudCBzZXJpYWxpemF0aW9uIGZvcm1hdHMgd2lsbCBoYXZlIHRvIGJlDQo+IHVz ZWQuDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIExhdXJlbmNlIGhlcmUuICBXZSBjYW4gcHJvYmFi bHkgZG8gYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4ganVzdA0KYWNrbm93bGVkZ2luZyB0aGUgc3RhdHVzIHF1by4gIFdl IHNlZW0gdG8gYmUgaW4gYSBwb3NpdGlvbiB3aGVyZSB3ZSBjYW4NCmF0IGxlYXN0IHRyeSBhbmQg c3RlZXIgdGhlIGVjb3N5c3RlbSB0byBhIHBsYWNlIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBudW1iZXIgb2YNCmZvcm1h dHMgdGhlIHBhcnRpZXMgaGF2ZSB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGlzIG1pbmltaXNlZCwgd2hpbGUgYXQg dGhlIHNhbWUNCnRpbWUgdGhlIHRyYW5zbGF0aW9uIGJldHdlZW4gZm9ybWF0cyBjYW4gYmUgZWFz aWx5IGF1dG9tYXRlZC4NCg0KY2hlZXJzIQ0KLS0NCg0KSU1QT1JUQU5UIE5PVElDRTogVGhlIGNv bnRlbnRzIG9mIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgYW5kIGFueSBhdHRhY2htZW50cyBhcmUgY29uZmlkZW50aWFs IGFuZCBtYXkgYWxzbyBiZSBwcml2aWxlZ2VkLiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQg cmVjaXBpZW50LCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgYW5kIGRvIG5v dCBkaXNjbG9zZSB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgdG8gYW55IG90aGVyIHBlcnNvbiwgdXNlIGl0IGZvciBh bnkgcHVycG9zZSwgb3Igc3RvcmUgb3IgY29weSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gYW55IG1lZGl1 bS4gVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0K From nobody Wed Mar 4 10:41:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2C13A146D; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:41:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id To8U3tdm6Cu2; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:41:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2D8F3A1460; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 024IewLX023637 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:40:58 +0100 Received: from [192.168.178.13] (134.102.43.219) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:40:53 +0100 To: "rats@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" , "cbor@ietf.org" From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:40:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.219] Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:41:10 -0000 Hi RATS enthusiasts, hi ACE, hi CBOR, in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity Attestation Token (EAT): > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/ > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/ A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to inhibit that Attester to lie about that. There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT: * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf soon, and such), * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process CWT, and * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions. Alas, there is also a very specific drawback: * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather minor detail for now) Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in RATS). Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal with this: 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature", 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that are not signed). At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement? If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea). If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, please say so (and... you know the drill). I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :) Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know. Viele Grüße, Henk From nobody Wed Mar 4 11:22:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B65B3A151F for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:22:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=WaquAoEV; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=ponJejHj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mlfr7Tt31JuQ for ; 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Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:22:28 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00: Thread-Index: AdXx8RPykFU1XWevSie4UVB2F+eGbAASjJ4A Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 19:22:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.76] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7327e6c8-06e5-45d9-9c0a-08d7c0716113 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB3044: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4941; x-forefront-prvs: 0332AACBC3 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(136003)(346002)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(376002)(199004)(189003)(9326002)(8676002)(8936002)(81156014)(316002)(81166006)(6916009)(86362001)(478600001)(33656002)(66946007)(9686003)(55016002)(26005)(64756008)(66574012)(66446008)(66556008)(71200400001)(76116006)(66476007)(186003)(5660300002)(52536014)(6506007)(7696005)(66616009)(2906002)(4326008); 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0859_01D5F230.506D73C0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7327e6c8-06e5-45d9-9c0a-08d7c0716113 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Mar 2020 19:22:28.6928 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FAWyojwDBpczBXOVFyh7EI0gSFgnXaCmMDGOzE06zGgUkLNj/ZQu6IIzlcWsFwyi X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3044 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00: X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 19:22:38 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0859_01D5F230.506D73C0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_085A_01D5F230.506D73C0" ------=_NextPart_001_085A_01D5F230.506D73C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_085B_01D5F230.506D73C0" ------=_NextPart_002_085B_01D5F230.506D73C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, Thanks very much for the comments. Some thoughts in-line... From: Xialiang, March 4, 2020 2:50 AM Hi Eric, This draft is a good start in the direction about using remote attestation for the end to end path calculation. The other interesting point is describing the netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation. As promised, I have reviewed the document and have some comments as below: 1. About a formally defined trustworthiness level: I like it and think current definition may be not enough. In addition to "boot-verified, unverified and compromised", there may be more like: system-verified, system-unverified, "key file"/"key process"-verified, "key file"/"key process"-verified, key-safe, key-unsafe. I don't want to complicate the definition, but we may need to consider more, and their combination; Yes I agree. There is a whole domain of router trustworthiness levels which need to be explored. In the YANG model, I made this into a tree of identities. And the Verifier can return a list of identities after doing appraisal. Figuring out this tree means understanding how each identity might be actioned within the network. 2. About Backward compatibility: we must consider the case that some legacy devices in the network don't support the proposed new functions, which will result in a partial end to end trusted path (topology). For this aspect, centralized way seems better than distributed way, since the hop by hop EAP messages of the distributed way cannot be exchanged directly across the legacy device. It's possibly a problem to be addressed; It is very true that legacy devices must be addressed. My biggest technical concern with "distributed" is integration of L2 spanning tree topologies between L3 FlexAlgo nodes. The good news is that are lots of networking technologies which can be applied, including things like the creation of IPSec tunnels for Secure Subnets between FlexAlgo nodes where an end-to-end path doesn't currently exist. Because of all the possible technical solutions here, I think it is appropriate for all the networking technology solutions to be abstracted away for this document's scope. Note: "centralized" does have technical concerns as well. For example, centralized path selection and maintenance requires traffic steering mechanisms. Also unless you have a robust controller, inserting undetected devices between nodes is more of a concern. So there are +/- to both alternatives. 3. About the fitness of RATS architecture for the Centralized Trusted Path Routing: I think current 2 defined RATS architectures (background check and passport) are both not very suitable for it. The Centralized Trusted Path Routing mode is a little bit different from the RATS background check architecture in terms of attester directly communicating with the verifier. The RATS architecture can add some sentences to clarify this option; This is one of the reasons I put the draft together. I am hoping that the authors of the architecture document are able to confirm this is a valid "Combination" architecture. And this will be my ask for any completion of WGLC by the architecture document :-). I don't believe that there needs to be any blockers here, but I am hoping for confirmation. 4. Echo to 1, TPM PCR value should be the only input to assess the trustworthiness of the target device, more claims can be considered. We can discuss it along the draft iteration; Yes I agree. There is text within the document highlighting that additional YANG notifications can be placed onto the Event Stream. My expectation is that these might be both standards and vendor based. 5. Too many verifiers in the Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: according to your current content, every device can be a verifier to request the neighboring device's composite evidence. I think this design complicate the solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only need to be the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in the composite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each other's credential and Know Good Values as being the role of verifier, which is very complex, I think; I don't believe the Verifier B role is as complicated as it might first appear. The hardest part is acquiring the public keys of the TPMs of your peers. Beyond that, it is only the centralized Verifier A which needs to understand and approve KGVs. The relying party just needs to be able to compare time(y) PCR values to time(x) PCR values. If they are the same, Verifier B can accept Verifier A's Trustworthiness Level. Or as link layer protocols like 802.1x have tunable reauthentication timers, you could choose to accept the difference in PCR values for a single reauthentication cycle. As interesting PCRs shouldn't change too often, the transaction should be quite manageable. In fact, the number of transactions could go down as the relying party doesn't have to verify credentials as the state and identity of the Attester has already been examined by Verifier A. 6. About netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation: a) I am not sure whether it's your intention, or it's just the beginning of this document, current document has not considered all the features of netconf pub/sub and their applicability to remote attestation. For example, dynamic subscription, on-change subscription are described, configuration subscription, periodic subscription are not. The event stream and selection filters are mainly about TPM PCR, not about other claims. We should discuss it later, and my draft (draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-02) has more description about them; there are certainly good elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model, a few of which I point out lower* in this email. While it is possible to do a periodic subscription to all the TPM objects, I find that unsatisfying as PCRs should change rarely. And we need a very quick reaction speed when PCRs do change. When the RATS WG kicked-off I thought on-change would be a good fit. However I no longer believe on-change is appropriate because: * *every* internal Attester TPM2 quote would result in a new signature as the timeticks counter increments. So changes in needed objects would flood an RFC-8641 compliant Verifier. * You mention draft-bryskin-netconf-automation-yang, however I don't believe we can wait for the evolution and deployment of event-condition-action drafts/functionality. And such a draft would be needed to selectively allow the sending of TPM Quotes based on a specific PCR change. This is why I now believe a RFC-8639 stream is the right way to go. On configured subscriptions, they should be supportable. I didn't include them in the -00 draft because they shouldn't need any incremental technologies to make them work. But the fact they are actually supportable isn't well articulated in the text. Thanks for the catch on this, I will make some text changes to Section 5.1 better reflect this possibility. b) Actually, the freshness check problem of netconf pub/sub model is not well addressed in this draft as well. We need to work more; Following are the mechanisms believe are viable for handling freshness. * For the distributed model o freshness is verifiable based on TPM Quote at time(y) * For the centralized model: o Where dynamic subscriptions with a TPM2, use the nonce in the , and then follow the incrementing of timeticks in the YANG notifications. * For on-change subscription, the object will then cover an attacker who is getting rid of notifications * For periodic subscriptions, freshness can be seen by incrementing timeticks. o For configured subscriptions where there is a TPM2, take TUDA's approach of watching an incrementing of timeticks. (e.g., Section 7, step [3]) o Where there is a TPM1.2, either use: * a periodic fetch , see Section 5.2.2 * broadcast new signed nonces from a central location (not described in the draft) I will improve the text to better document some of these. * Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps from this draft include: (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different types of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and ima-log-trust-evidence. Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering easier? (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates. It is important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. Thank you! Eric Thanks! B.R. Frank This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! ------=_NextPart_002_085B_01D5F230.506D73C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Frank,

 

Thanks = very much for the comments.  Some thoughts = in-line...

 

From: Xialiang, March 4, 2020 2:50 = AM

Hi Eric,

This draft = is a good start in the direction about using remote attestation for the = end to end path calculation. The other interesting point is describing = the netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation. =

 

As = promised, I have reviewed the document and have some comments as = below:

1.      = About a formally defined = trustworthiness level: I like it and think current definition may be not = enough. In addition to “boot-verified, unverified and = compromised”, there may be more like: system-verified, = system-unverified, “key file”/”key = process”-verified, “key file”/”key = process”-verified, key-safe, key-unsafe… I don’t want = to complicate the definition, but we may need to consider more, and = their combination;

<e= ric>  Yes I agree.  There is a whole domain of router = trustworthiness levels which need to be explored.   In the = YANG model, I made this into a tree of identities.   And the = Verifier can return a list of identities after doing appraisal.  = Figuring out this tree means understanding how each identity might be = actioned within the network.

 

 

2.      = About Backward compatibility: we = must consider the case that some legacy devices in the network = don’t support the proposed new functions, which will result in a = partial end to end trusted path (topology). For this aspect, centralized = way seems better than distributed way, since the hop by hop EAP messages = of the distributed way cannot be exchanged directly across the legacy = device. It’s possibly a problem to be = addressed;

<e= ric> It is very true that legacy devices must be addressed.  My = biggest technical concern with "distributed" is integration of = L2 spanning tree topologies between L3 FlexAlgo nodes.  The good = news is that are lots of networking technologies which can be applied, = including things like the creation of IPSec tunnels for Secure Subnets = between FlexAlgo nodes where an end-to-end path doesn't currently = exist.  Because of all the possible technical solutions here, I = think it is appropriate for all the networking technology solutions to = be abstracted away for this document's scope.

=  

Note:= "centralized" does have technical concerns as well.  For = example, centralized path selection and maintenance requires traffic = steering mechanisms.  Also unless you have a robust controller, = inserting undetected devices between nodes is more of a concern.  = So there are +/- to both alternatives. 

 

 

3.      = About the fitness of RATS = architecture for the Centralized Trusted Path Routing: I think current 2 = defined RATS architectures (background check and passport) are both not = very suitable for it. The Centralized Trusted Path Routing mode is a = little bit different from the RATS background check architecture in = terms of attester directly communicating with the verifier. The RATS = architecture can add some sentences to clarify this = option;

<e= ric> This is one of the reasons I put the draft together.  I am = hoping that the authors of the architecture document are able to confirm = this is a valid "Combination"  architecture.  And = this will be my ask for any completion of WGLC by the architecture = document :-).    I don't believe that there needs to be = any blockers here, but I am hoping for = confirmation.

 

4.      = Echo to 1, TPM PCR value should be = the only input to assess the trustworthiness of the target device, more = claims can be considered. We can discuss it along the draft = iteration;

<e= ric> Yes I agree.   There is text within the document = highlighting that additional YANG notifications can be placed onto the = <attestation> Event Stream.   My expectation is that = these might be both standards and vendor based.

 

 

5.      = Too many verifiers in the = Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: according to your current = content, every device can be a verifier to request the neighboring = device’s composite evidence. I think this design complicate the = solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only need to be = the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in the = composite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each = other’s credential and Know Good Values as being the role of = verifier, which is very complex, I think;

<e= ric> I don't believe the Verifier B role is as complicated as it = might first appear.   The hardest part is acquiring the public = keys of the TPMs of your peers.  Beyond that, it is only the = centralized Verifier A which needs to understand and approve = KGVs.   The relying party just needs to be able to compare = time(y) PCR values to time(x) PCR values.  If they are the same, = Verifier B can accept Verifier A's Trustworthiness = Level.    Or as link layer protocols like 802.1x have = tunable reauthentication timers, you could choose to accept the = difference in PCR values for a single reauthentication = cycle.

=  

As = interesting PCRs shouldn't change too often, the transaction should be = quite manageable.  In fact, the number of transactions could go = down as the relying party doesn't have to verify credentials as the = state and identity of the Attester has already been examined by Verifier = A.

 

 

6.      = About netconf pub/sub model for = remote attestation:

a)       = I am not sure whether it’s = your intention, or it’s just the beginning of this document, = current document has not considered all the features of netconf pub/sub = and their applicability to remote attestation. For example, dynamic = subscription, on-change subscription are described, configuration = subscription, periodic subscription are not. The event stream and = selection filters are mainly about TPM PCR, not about other claims. We = should discuss it later, and my draft (draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-02) = has more description about them;

 

<e= ric> there are certainly good elements of = draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model, a few of which I point out lower* in this = email. 

=  

While= it is possible to do a periodic subscription to all the TPM objects, I = find that unsatisfying as PCRs should change rarely.  And we need a = very quick reaction speed when PCRs do change.  When the RATS WG = kicked-off I thought on-change would be a good fit.   However = I no longer believe on-change is appropriate = because:

·        = *ever= y* internal Attester TPM2 quote would result in a new signature as the = timeticks counter increments.  So changes in needed objects would = flood an RFC-8641 compliant Verifier.

·        = You = mention draft-bryskin-netconf-automation-yang, however I don't believe = we can wait for the evolution and deployment of event-condition-action = drafts/functionality.  And such a draft would be needed to = selectively allow the sending of TPM Quotes based on a specific PCR = change.

This = is why I now believe a RFC-8639 stream is the right way to = go.

=  

On = configured subscriptions, they should be supportable.   I = didn't include them in the -00 draft because they shouldn't need any = incremental technologies to make them work.  But the fact they are = actually supportable isn't well articulated in the text.  Thanks = for the catch on this, I will make some text changes to Section 5.1 = better reflect this possibility.

 

b)       = Actually, the freshness check = problem of netconf pub/sub model is not well addressed in this draft as = well. We need to work more;

<e= ric> Following are the mechanisms believe are viable for handling = freshness.

·        = For = the distributed model

o   fresh= ness is verifiable based on TPM Quote at time(y)

·        = For = the centralized model:

o   Where= dynamic subscriptions with a TPM2, use the nonce in the = <establish-subscription>, and then follow the incrementing of = timeticks in the YANG notifications. 

§  = For = on-change subscription, the object <tpm2-heartbeat> will then = cover an attacker who is getting rid of = notifications

§  = For = periodic subscriptions, freshness can be seen by incrementing = timeticks.

o   For = configured subscriptions where there is a TPM2, take TUDA's approach of = watching an incrementing of timeticks. (e.g., Section 7, step = [3])

o   Where= there is a TPM1.2, either use:

§  = a = periodic fetch <tpm12-challenge-response-attestation>, see Section = 5.2.2

§  = broad= cast new signed nonces from a central location (not described in the = draft)

I = will improve the text to better document some of = these.

=  

* Elements of = draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps from this = draft include:

=  

(1) = the possibility of several event streams to support different types of = Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and = ima-log-trust-evidence.    Maybe we would define a = hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering = easier?

(2) = explicit identification of the attestation-certificates.  It is = important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire = these.

=  

=  

Thank= you!

Eric<= o:p>

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

This e-mail and its attachments contain = confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the = person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the = information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, = total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons = other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this = e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately = and delete it!<= /p>

 

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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UBJNndLKg3BV; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C94A03A0414; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.42.113] (p5089A9C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.169.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48Xl6f6k3Vz100y; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 20:58:02 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 20:58:02 +0100 Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" , "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 605044682.456602-3bf3b410bc820e7981c0f1db4c03daa4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A9AE14E-5DFD-41B4-93CD-91127133E038@tzi.org> References: To: Henk Birkholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 19:58:08 -0000 On 2020-03-04, at 19:40, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Say_No > 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or > 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., = that are not signed). I believe this is pretty much the same option. I think ACE would come up with a CBOR tag as the obvious technical = solution, and CBOR would suggest exactly that to ACE as the group = responsible for CWT (and thus CWT Claims Sets). Apparently the only technical problem we have is that we don=E2=80=99t = have a defined way to mark a naked CWT Claims Set (NCCS) as such; EATs = would then be either NCCS or CWTs. CBOR tags are cheap and solve this problem. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 4 12:13:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36F43A0775 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:13:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3JAQVOJHXsAi for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D1023A0774 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00813897F for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D47D93 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:13:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0000000000006691a0059ff7779d@google.com> References: <0000000000006691a0059ff7779d@google.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Accepted: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time @ Fri 2020-03-06 12:00 - 13:00 (EST) (mcharlesr@gmail.com) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 20:13:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain The design team decided to have a second meeting this week, at 12:00EST (17:00UTC) on Friday. It will use the same URL, and I'll just hit "start" on the webex. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5gC+AACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVZuQf/QRD3+7bzRPj4HYUpL5n5VpA02x2BjLiCni4qTboT1WuXFTm3DWG71tI7 L9p0gPdfmgJK2cUxhwtYRy7eUmTqwxA9h6OOZ3NovzIQ93H3PPsSxs0jKHjSJ2zE xse8Fp6pcaUXviepSNOd96NZQk3Mg6/8Kig128os/d52LYSIgGuNJ4FckM8HdrpE Tp0NXRVMJBUgakg9QwXTpn+CVXLpwc/fPz46N5IHlCL+4z9hdi5KSR+bqxbYI1Tn nXswHa9XB9p7i4HshaJ+8dJNj25r2JoSWCH/ogyMxQvohIbRf5bKcQyWiQr1EPWB C9eJdD0wiQLiXkV+4c7UiJc2SatPLw== =37H4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 12:39:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D53A0855 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jGw1-NgYlsv2 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7CAC3A0837 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:39:29 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga007.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.58]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Mar 2020 12:39:28 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,515,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="229450741" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by orsmga007.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2020 12:39:28 -0800 Received: from orsmsx111.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.12) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:39:28 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX111.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.135]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:39:28 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade CC: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsements Thread-Index: AQHV8Y+3lq/AUeJl3EGfLaoch38qLKg30eCA//+KUACAAdiBgP//si6A Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 20:39:27 +0000 Message-ID: <842A431A-E9E1-4895-A798-16F2B413385D@intel.com> References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vs8JgDVbMu2j; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10F083A0A03; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:42:10 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Henk Birkholz' , , , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:42:08 -0800 Message-ID: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPc7l4+GCW+nItGLs4R66gGWmpXafF0IDw Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 21:42:17 -0000 Henk, Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response = from me. -----Original Message----- From: Ace On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not = to be a CWT? Hi RATS enthusiasts, hi ACE, hi CBOR, in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity = Attestation Token (EAT): > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/ > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/ A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey = believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of = evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple = enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying = Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about = whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In = summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to = inhibit that Attester to lie about that. There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT: * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA = registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf = soon, and such), * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process = CWT, and * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions. Alas, there is also a very specific drawback: * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render = it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather = minor detail for now) Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims = Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with = well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to = convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in = RATS). Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal = with this: 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature", [JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security = credentials revoked. The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take = the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should = be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue. I strongly = believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and = have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null = signature" from JOSE. While it is bad to have signatures which are no = longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain = dead. 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or [JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any = reason for it however. See below. 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that = are not signed). [JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2 [JLS] 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. =20 My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or order = of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks like while (true) { if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the = content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; } if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; = save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; = continue;} if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the = content; save the signer information; continue } if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; throw an exception because it is not the correct format. } This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow = that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed. = What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that = is going to check for an additional tag. It is also going to lead to = people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a = CWT. After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just = sometimes include it. This would be more of an issue if an array rather = than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance = to not know what type of security wrapper exists. [JLS END] At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach = this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach = this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement? If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, = please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping = the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea). If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, = please say so (and... you know the drill). I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the = RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :) Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that = could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know. Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From nobody Wed Mar 4 13:47:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C073A09B5 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:47:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com header.b=Qoi0JSEt; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=qualcomm.onmicrosoft.com header.b=CYc3ivAG 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--_000_BYAPR02MB4422B6AB4E9989FF0788045F81E50BYAPR02MB4422namp_-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 14:27:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4633A0ABF for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:27:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Amad5K-F_Sz for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga06.intel.com (mga06.intel.com [134.134.136.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F07B3A0AB6 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:27:21 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga008.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.58]) by orsmga104.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Mar 2020 14:27:20 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,515,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="234262167" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by fmsmga008.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2020 14:27:20 -0800 Received: from orsmsx162.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.85) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:27:20 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX162.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.233]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:27:20 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Giridhar Mandyam , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsements Thread-Index: AQHV8Y+3lq/AUeJl3EGfLaoch38qLKg30eCA//+KUACAAdiBgP//si6AgACZGgD//4UJgA== Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:27:19 +0000 Message-ID: <507E1F4D-1243-44FE-91E8-5411570F8F94@intel.com> References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> <842A431A-E9E1-4895-A798-16F2B413385D@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.137] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_507E1F4D124344FE91E85411570F8F94intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 22:27:27 -0000 --_000_507E1F4D124344FE91E85411570F8F94intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFbjVOcP4HOS; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409CF3A0AD3; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 024MXUFh032237 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:33:30 +0100 Received: from [134.102.158.160] (134.102.158.160) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:33:25 +0100 To: Jim Schaad , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:33:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.158.160] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 22:33:42 -0000 Hi Jim, I'll take a stake into my heart for the group then :) Please note that I claim that there is no evidence that I am a vampire nor that I am the provenance of option 1.). I tried to phrase the output of the last virtual interim as neutral as possible and I think your reply is to be categorized as: Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair. Viele Grüße, Henk On 04.03.20 22:42, Jim Schaad wrote: > Henk, > > Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response from me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM > To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org > Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? > > Hi RATS enthusiasts, > hi ACE, > hi CBOR, > > in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an Entity Attestation Token (EAT): > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/ > > > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/ > > A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like > entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to inhibit that Attester to lie about that. > > There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a CWT: > > * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing, cnf soon, and such), > * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can process CWT, and > * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions. > > Alas, there is also a very specific drawback: > > * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does render it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a rather minor detail for now) > > Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in RATS). > > Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal with this: > > 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature", > > [JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security credentials revoked. The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue. I strongly believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null signature" from JOSE. While it is bad to have signatures which are no longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain dead. > > 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or > > [JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any reason for it however. See below. > > 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., that are not signed). > [JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2 > > [JLS] > 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. > > My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks like > > while (true) { > if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; } > if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;} > if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue } > if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; > throw an exception because it is not the correct format. > } > > This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag. It is also going to lead to people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a CWT. After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just sometimes include it. This would be more of an issue if an array rather than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance to not know what type of security wrapper exists. > > [JLS END] > > > At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to approach this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you approach this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement? > > If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea). > > If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, please say so (and... you know the drill). > > I hope that this email contains all the information required to help the RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say so :) > > Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know. > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > From nobody Wed Mar 4 14:46:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B26B3A0B0A; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nSRfECEvPcBb; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6C3E3A0B04; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.147] (p5089A9C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.169.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48Xprm0J6Yz108b; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:46:16 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:46:15 +0100 Cc: Jim Schaad , rats@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 605054775.493915-daa859d953590922773df91e40f2c0b7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <30A65EE4-25BC-4AA2-B283-85471FA49278@tzi.org> References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> To: Henk Birkholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 22:46:21 -0000 On 2020-03-04, at 23:33, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair. Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from the author of the = COSE specification. (And at least one other WG member agrees.) FTFY=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 4 14:48:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1623A0B14; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:48:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IT2zar6Z4u_r; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD7ED3A0B08; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 024MmFG3032497 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:48:16 +0100 Received: from [134.102.158.160] (134.102.158.160) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:48:10 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann CC: Jim Schaad , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> <30A65EE4-25BC-4AA2-B283-85471FA49278@tzi.org> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <29993d66-fd6f-a648-b030-18ceb0d22434@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:48:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <30A65EE4-25BC-4AA2-B283-85471FA49278@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.158.160] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 22:48:26 -0000 Oh. Yes. Sorry. Tired and therefore still claiming #notavampire On 04.03.20 23:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-03-04, at 23:33, Henk Birkholz wrote: >> >> Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair. > > Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from the author of the COSE specification. > (And at least one other WG member agrees.) > > FTFY… > > Grüße, Carsten > From nobody Wed Mar 4 14:53:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E3A3A0B31 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:53:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX116.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.7.180]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:53:13 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Thomas Fossati , Laurence Lundblade , Kathleen Moriarty CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIAAJX2A///CxoA= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 22:53:13 +0000 Message-ID: <027C9BEF-A8CD-457D-8E51-405276009F78@intel.com> References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <49B1F8F0132E6341A70FE2D07B8FC915@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 22:53:16 -0000 Tm1zPiBBIGd1aWRpbmcgcHJpbmNpcGxlIGlzIHRoYXQgbWFya2V0IGZvcmNlcyBvZnRlbiBkZWNp ZGUgd2hpY2ggZm9ybWF0cyBiZWNvbWUgd2lubmVycy4gVGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBob3BlcyBt YXJrZXQgZm9yY2VzIHdpbGwgdmFsdWUgaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSAoTWV0Y2FsZidzIGxhdyBo dHRwczovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9NZXRjYWxmZSdzX2xhdykgYnV0IGluIHRoZSBt ZWFudGltZSwgdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBhc3N1bWVzIFZlcmlmaWVyIGFuZCBSZWx5aW5nIFBh cnR5IHdpbGwgaGF2ZSB0byBkZWFsIHdpdGggdGhlIGNvbXBsZXhpdHkgb2YgbXVsdGlwbGUgZm9y bWF0cy4gVGhlIG90aGVyIGNvbnN0cmFpbnQgaXMgdGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBleHBlY3RzIG1l c3NhZ2VzIHByb2R1Y2VkIGJ5IFJBVFMgcm9sZXMgY2FuIChtdXN0PykgYmUgZGlnZXN0LWFibGUs IHNpZ24tYWJsZSAvIGVuY3J5cHQtYWJsZS4gVGhpcyBydWxlcyBvdXQgc29tZSBtYXJrdXAgbGFu 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cnBvc2UsIG9yIHN0b3JlIG9yIGNvcHkgdGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGluIGFueSBtZWRpdW0uIFRo YW5rIHlvdS4NCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 4 15:02:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA163A0B52; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylLBT5_a4AGt; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19B023A0B54; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:50 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Henk Birkholz' , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <4a44342d-b856-351e-8e38-405646a5597b@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:01:49 -0800 Message-ID: <00e201d5f278$e4b6f310$ae24d930$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPc7l4+GCW+nItGLs4R66gGWmpXQHDaFTrAZUxuCCnq0QkEA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 23:01:59 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Ace On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 2:33 PM To: Jim Schaad ; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; = cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or = not to be a CWT? Hi Jim, I'll take a stake into my heart for the group then :) Please note that I = claim that there is no evidence that I am a vampire nor that I am the = provenance of option 1.). [JLS] Please note I was planning on staking the idea not the person, I = was just going to de-credential you. However that does raise the = question should I bring salt and a sewing kit (mummies) or a gun with a = silver bullet (werewolves)? I tried to phrase the output of the last virtual interim as neutral as = possible and I think your reply is to be categorized as: Option 1.) is "out of the question" as a reply from a COSE WG chair. [JLS] That would be the COSE author and ACE and CBOR WG chair. I am not = a COSE WG chair. However, I guess I hit all three asks. Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk On 04.03.20 22:42, Jim Schaad wrote: > Henk, >=20 > Well you have definitely written a message designed to get a response = from me. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:41 AM > To: rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org > Subject: [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or = not to be a CWT? >=20 > Hi RATS enthusiasts, > hi ACE, > hi CBOR, >=20 > in the RATS WG we had a lot of discussions about the nature of an = Entity Attestation Token (EAT): >=20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/ >=20 > > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/ >=20 > A bit of (hopefully useful) context: an EAT is one way to convey=20 > believable evidence from an Attester (a role residing on a device-like > entity) to a Verifier (another role defined by RATS - the appraiser of = evidence). All that is done to provide a Relying Party with "simple = enough" attestation results generated by the Verifier to enable Relying = Parties (in general, the remote peer) to make an informed decision about = whether to put trust in the trustworthiness of that Attester or not. In = summary, an Attester could be compromised in some way and RATS tries to = inhibit that Attester to lie about that. >=20 > There are a lot of benefits if an EAT (representing evidence) is a = CWT: >=20 > * we avoid conflicting CWT claim index/label definitions in the IANA=20 > registry, while being able to use the CWT world of claims (existing,=20 > cnf soon, and such), > * at first glance it seems simpler to use existing code that can=20 > process CWT, and > * EAT can simply inherit the well defined COSE signing conventions. >=20 > Alas, there is also a very specific drawback: >=20 > * sometimes RATS might not want to sign a token (maybe that does=20 > render it not a token anymore, but rather a ticket. But that is just a = > rather minor detail for now) >=20 > Why do RATS sometimes not require a signature around their CWT Claims = Sets? Because the surrounding secure channel between two entities with = well established authenticity and trustworthiness can be good enough to = convey useful CWT Claims Sets without a signature (emphasis on: in = RATS). >=20 > Now - there are multiple options discussed in the RATS WG how to deal = with this: >=20 > 1.) go to COSE and ask for a "null signature", >=20 > [JLS] For suggesting this, you should have all of you security = credentials revoked. The idea of deliberately introducing a way to take = the security value of COSE signatures to zero is something that should = be staked like a vampire and not allowed to continue. I strongly = believe that this is a fatal flaw in the current JOSE security suite and = have several times deliberated writing a document to remove the "null = signature" from JOSE. While it is bad to have signatures which are no = longer adequately secure, having one with zero security is just brain = dead. >=20 > 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or >=20 > [JLS] I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any = reason for it however. See below. >=20 > 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., = that are not signed). > [JLS] I don't see any difference between this and option #2 >=20 > [JLS] > 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. >=20 > My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or=20 > order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks like >=20 > while (true) { > if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the = content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; } > if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the = content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue;} > if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the = content; save the signer information; continue } > if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; > throw an exception because it is not the correct format. > } >=20 > This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would allow = that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can be passed. = What you are suggesting would require extra code to exist someplace that = is going to check for an additional tag. It is also going to lead to = people thinking that this new tag should be legal to place inside of a = CWT. After all it makes more sense to always include it than to just = sometimes include it. This would be more of an issue if an array rather = than a map was being used to carry the claims as there would be a chance = to not know what type of security wrapper exists. >=20 > [JLS END] >=20 >=20 > At the last RATS virtual interim there was no certainty how to = approach this. So this is a call out. COSE, ACE, and CBOR, how would you = approach this "unsigned CWT Claims Set" requirement? >=20 > If one of the three options highlighted above is out of the question, = please say so (and please elaborate on the why for the sake of helping = the RATS WG understand why that is not a good idea). >=20 > If one of the three options looks like a low hanging fruit & viable, = please say so (and... you know the drill). >=20 > I hope that this email contains all the information required to help=20 > the RATS WG in this call out to other WGs. If it does not, please say=20 > so :) >=20 > Last but not least, if there are other relevant WGs or experts that = could lend opinions or alternatives, let us know. >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From nobody Wed Mar 4 16:30:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A701B3A0CF9 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:30:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, 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No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XGYQe82LbQ3f for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5739B3A0F35 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 23:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 09F2E33D9F2525D37AAD for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 07:41:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 07:41:58 +0000 Received: from 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Hi Eric= ,

It=A1= =AFs a very quick and detailed response, thanks a lot~~

&n= bsp;

Please = see my further comments inline:

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

<= /span>

 

This e-mail and its attachments= contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. A= ny use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not l= imited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by = persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please no= tify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Eric Voit (evoit) [mailto:evoit@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2020=C4=EA3=D4=C25=C8=D5 3:22
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) <frank.xial= iang@huawei.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD: rats@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00:

 

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks very much for the comments.  Some thoughts in-line...=

 

From: Xialiang, March 4, 2020 = 2:50 AM

Hi Eric,

This draft is a good start in t= he direction about using remote attestation for the end to end path calcula= tion. The other interesting point is describing the netconf pub/sub model f= or remote attestation.

 

As promised, I have reviewed th= e document and have some comments as below:

1= .   &= nbsp;   About a formally define= d trustworthiness level: I like it and think current definition may be not = enough. In addition to =A1=B0boot-verified, unverified and compromised=A1= =B1, there may be more like: system-verified, system-unverified, =A1=B0key file=A1=B1/=A1=B1key process=A1=B1-verified, = =A1=B0key file=A1=B1/=A1=B1key process=A1=B1-verified, key-safe, key-unsafe= =A1=AD I don=A1=AFt want to complicate the definition, but we may need to c= onsider more, and their combination;

<eric>  Yes I agree.  There is a whole domain of = router trustworthiness levels which need to be explored.   In the= YANG model, I made this into a tree of identities.   And the Ver= ifier can return a list of identities after doing appraisal.  Figuring out = this tree means understanding how each identity might be actioned within th= e network.

 

=  

2= .   &= nbsp;   About Backward compatib= ility: we must consider the case that some legacy devices in the network do= n=A1=AFt support the proposed new functions, which will result in a partial= end to end trusted path (topology). For this aspect, centralized way seems better than distributed way, since the = hop by hop EAP messages of the distributed way cannot be exchanged directly= across the legacy device. It=A1=AFs possibly a problem to be addressed;

<eric> It is very true that legacy devices must be addresse= d.  My biggest technical concern with "distributed" is integ= ration of L2 spanning tree topologies between L3 FlexAlgo nodes.  The good news is that are lots of networking technologies which can be app= lied, including things like the creation of IPSec tunnels for Secure Subnet= s between FlexAlgo nodes where an end-to-end path doesn't currently exist.&= nbsp; Because of all the possible technical solutions here, I think it is appropriate for all the networking technolog= y solutions to be abstracted away for this document's scope.

[Frank]= : you mean a hop by hop IPSec tunnels between FlexAlgo nodes, like: anima a= cp plane? In fact, anima acp plane also has its complexity and constraints.= But I agree that we can abstract them away from this document, at least now~~

 

Note: "centralized" does have technical concerns as wel= l.  For example, centralized path selection and maintenance requires t= raffic steering mechanisms.  Also unless you have a robust controller, inserting undetected devices between nodes is more of a concer= n.  So there are +/- to both alternatives. 

= [Frank]: agree.

=  

3= .   &= nbsp;   About the fitness of RA= TS architecture for the Centralized Trusted Path Routing: I think current 2= defined RATS architectures (background check and passport) are both not ve= ry suitable for it. The Centralized Trusted Path Routing mode is a little bit different from the RATS backgrou= nd check architecture in terms of attester directly communicating with the = verifier. The RATS architecture can add some sentences to clarify this opti= on;

<eric> This is one of the reasons I put the draft together.=   I am hoping that the authors of the architecture document are able t= o confirm this is a valid "Combination"  architecture.  And this will be my ask for any completion of WGLC by the architecture doc= ument :-).    I don't believe that there needs to be any blo= ckers here, but I am hoping for confirmation.

[Frank]= : let=A1=AFs talk with RATS architecture authors later for this, maybe.

=  

4= .   &= nbsp;   Echo to 1, TPM PCR valu= e should be the only input to assess the trustworthiness of the target devi= ce, more claims can be considered. We can discuss it along the draft iterat= ion;

<eric> Yes I agree.   There is text within the do= cument highlighting that additional YANG notifications can be placed onto t= he <attestation> Event Stream.   My expectation is that these might be both standards and vendor based.

 =

=  

5= .   &= nbsp;   Too many verifiers in t= he Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: according to your current content= , every device can be a verifier to request the neighboring device=A1=AFs c= omposite evidence. I think this design complicate the solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only = need to be the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in = the composite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each other=A1= =AFs credential and Know Good Values as being the role of verifier, which is very complex, I think;<= /span>

<eric> I don't believe the Verifier B role is as complicate= d as it might first appear.   The hardest part is acquiring the p= ublic keys of the TPMs of your peers.  Beyond that, it is only the centralized Verifier A which needs to understand and approve K= GVs.   The relying party just needs to be able to compare time(y)= PCR values to time(x) PCR values.  If they are the same, Verifier B c= an accept Verifier A's Trustworthiness Level.    Or as link layer protocols like 802.1x have tunable reauthentication timer= s, you could choose to accept the difference in PCR values for a single rea= uthentication cycle.

 

As interesting PCRs shouldn't change too often, the transaction s= hould be quite manageable.  In fact, the number of transactions could = go down as the relying party doesn't have to verify credentials as the state and identity of the Attester has already b= een examined by Verifier A.

[Frank]: I agree you analysis for current PCR implementation, but= if we consider more for future, maybe we need to support more claims and t= heir verification on different devices as required, the distribution of KGVs still exist then.

=  

6= .   &= nbsp;   About netconf pub/sub m= odel for remote attestation:

a= )   &= nbsp;     I am not sure whether i= t=A1=AFs your intention, or it=A1=AFs just the beginning of this document, = current document has not considered all the features of netconf pub/sub and= their applicability to remote attestation. For example, dynamic subscription, on-change subscription are described, c= onfiguration subscription, periodic subscription are not. The event stream = and selection filters are mainly about TPM PCR, not about other claims. We = should discuss it later, and my draft (draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-02) has more description about them;

 

<eric> there are certainly good elements of draft-xia-rats-= pubsub-model, a few of which I point out lower* in this email. 

 

While it is possible to do a periodic subscription to all the TPM= objects, I find that unsatisfying as PCRs should change rarely.  And = we need a very quick reaction speed when PCRs do change.  When the RATS WG kicked-off I thought on-change would be = a good fit.   However I no longer believe on-change is appropriat= e because:

=A1=A4     =     *every* internal Attester TPM2 quote would result in a ne= w signature as the timeticks counter increments.  So changes in needed= objects would flood an RFC-8641 compliant Verifier.

=A1=A4     =     You mention draft-bryskin-netconf-automation-yang, howeve= r I don't believe we can wait for the evolution and deployment of event-con= dition-action drafts/functionality.  And such a draft would be needed to selectively allow the sending of= TPM Quotes based on a specific PCR change.

This is why I now believe a RFC-8639 stream is the right way to g= o.

[Frank]= : you are the expert of pub/sub model, I need to learn more from you~~=

 

On configured subscriptions, they should be supportable.  &n= bsp;I didn't include them in the -00 draft because they shouldn't need any = incremental technologies to make them work.  But the fact they are actually supportable isn't well articulated in the text.=   Thanks for the catch on this, I will make some text changes to Secti= on 5.1 better reflect this possibility.

[Frank]= : thanks.

 

b= )   &= nbsp;     Actually, the freshness= check problem of netconf pub/sub model is not well addressed in this draft= as well. We need to work more;

<eric> Following are the mechanisms believe are viable for = handling freshness.

=A1=A4     =     For the distributed model

o   freshness is verifiable based on TPM Quote at time(y)

[Frank]= : it requires the time sync among the devices, right?

&n= bsp;

=A1=A4     =     For the centralized model:

o   Where dynamic subscriptions with a TPM2, use the nonce in= the <establish-subscription>, and then follow the incrementing of ti= meticks in the YANG notifications. 

=A1=EC  For on-change subscription, the object <tpm2-heartbeat= > will then cover an attacker who is getting rid of notifications

=A1=EC  For periodic subscriptions, freshness can be seen by incr= ementing timeticks.

o   For configured subscriptions where there is a TPM2, take = TUDA's approach of watching an incrementing of timeticks. (e.g., Section 7,= step [3])

o   Where there is a TPM1.2, either use:

=A1=EC  a periodic fetch <tpm12-challenge-response-attestation= >, see Section 5.2.2

=A1=EC  broadcast new signed nonces from a central location (not = described in the draft)

I will improve the text to better document some of these.

[Frank]= : ok, looking forward to more text about this key issue~~=

 

* Elements of= draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps from this draft= include:

 

(1) the possibility of several event streams to support different= types of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and ima-log= -trust-evidence.    Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering easier?

(2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates. = ; It is important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these= .

[Frank]: I can help on these`~~

&n= bsp;

B.R.

Frank

 

Thank you!

Eric

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

This e-mail and its attachments= contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. A= ny use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not l= imited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by = persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please no= tify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!

 

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lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <2A82BE39-5B6C-4451-B4CE-2CCD2048F0D0@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B7FFCA2C-1C54-4625-9D0B-8722BE1C8C8C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:26:07 -0800 In-Reply-To: <842A431A-E9E1-4895-A798-16F2B413385D@intel.com> Cc: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> <842A431A-E9E1-4895-A798-16F2B413385D@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFy6+7LPCWbVMBzgIr9vHmRhr3NodmuTCjcWPdZ+sP4tejg5KlmzkeshMG2oJ0RCwt9dGA+qPbIBFtNLIXbk458225RAaHUI2lv8ZjmsXbYQK2ZuCsK5 aYwIaPKYQc4WvSPcOb7KlLIogjjzsfSRwjOeLHsTN7e5umGzViKcmWVOKOwShoOu+c7OAZkmr9HiWb+lCrWPGAxcQHZnUtB/jCDNRhll6MpX4aYSsJ9HCrbH Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 16:26:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B7FFCA2C-1C54-4625-9D0B-8722BE1C8C8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s an attempt at more clear definitions; hopefully a big = improvement over my terse grammatically incorrect comments below. I didn=E2=80=99t go into it below, but I think Endorsements can contain = implicit claims that can go into the Attestation Result. I think there = are actually two poles for the way implicit and explicit claims work and = how they get into the Attestation Result. In one case, more TPM-like, = just about all the claims are implicit and come from the Endorser via = the Endorsement. In the opposite case, more TEE-like, just about all the = claims are explicit and the Endorsement isn=E2=80=99t much more than a = verification key. Pretty sure the architecture document needs to cover how implicit and = explicit claims work. Seems like a critical part of Rats architecture. LL Endorser The primary function of an Endorser is to endorse an Attester so that a = Verifier can know to trust that Attester. The Endorser does this by = creating an Endorsement and conveying it securely to the Verifier. The = primary basis for a Verifier trusting an Attester is the Endorsement. There is thus an existential relationship between Attesters and = Endorsers. An Attester with no Endorsement is not worth very much since = there is no good basis by which a Verifier can trust it so every = Attester needs an Endorser. The Endorser=E2=80=99s primary function is = to endorse Attesters so an Endorser doesn=E2=80=99t have anything to do = without some Attesters to endorse. A Verify cannot do its job without Endorsements. It must have an = Endorsement for each Attester from which it received Attestation = Evidence. Without this, the Attester is not trusted and there is no = basis for trusting the Evidence it produces. There is a trust triangle between the Endorser, Attester and Verifier. = The Endorser tells the Verifier that an Attester is trustworthy. Endorsement Ultimately an Endorsement must be realized as some input bytes to a = Verifier and they must be conveyed securely from the Endorser to the = Verifier. RATS architecture does not impose any limit or restriction on = the formats of these bytes or the conveyance mechanism. In practice = they are expected to vary quite widely. In most cases the Endorsement will include the key material that is used = to verify signatures on the Evidence. Since the Evidence will contain a = nonce, this signature verification serves to authenticate the attester. = The Endorsement may also contain information about the Attester such as = its type, version, manufacturer and such. In one example, the Endorser and the Verifier are the same legal = organization, so secure conveyance is entirely an internal issue for the = organization. It may consist of one employee copying a set of public = keys from computer in the company to another. In another example, the Endorsement may take the form of a PKI = hierarchy. The Endorser conveys a root certificate to the Verifier. The = Endorser also creates per-attester certificates under that root. Those = per-attester certificates are programmed into Attesters. The Attester = sends them to the Verifier attached to the Evidence. There may be = several levels of certificates in the PKI hierarchy. The Verifier walks = the certificate chain to determine trust. Note in the case the abstract = notion of Endorsement comes to the Verifier in two parts, one in an = out-of-band secure conveyance or a root certificate and the other as the = signed (self-securing) certificates from the Attester. Unendorsed Attesters The use of unendorsed Attesters is discouraged because there is no good = basis for establishing trust in them. An unendorsed Attester may still = have a signing key and produce signed evidence. A Verifier may choose to = have some trust in the Evidence they produce by assuming they are = trusted on first use (TOFU), building up trust over time after seeing a = lot of presumably good attestation evidence, or because it is fed into a = machine learning algorithm that correlates to known fraud. Rats = architecture include any facilities, details or designs for this mode of = use and explicitly considers it insecure. > On Mar 4, 2020, at 12:39 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Nms> inline below > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade > > Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 9:18 AM > To: "Smith, Ned" > > Cc: Giridhar Mandyam >, "rats@ietf.org = " > > Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:06 PM, Smith, Ned > wrote: >> =20 >> Referring to Giri's statement: "It seems that a verifier would not = distinguish between the two types of tokens under most appraisal = policies" >>=20 >> I'm not sure this interpretation is correct. The Verifier depends on = appraisal policy that identifies trust anchors (public keys) that are = deemed "trusted". Trust anchor policies could identify a public key pair = that was embedded in a device as the anchor. Or it could identify a = supply chain entity that claims to have embedded a key pair (and the = Verifier policy doesn't yet know / trust the embedded key).=20 >>=20 >> Endorsement is the ability for a supply chain entity to assert more = claims about the Attesting device than could be asserted by the = Attester. Clearly, the Endorsement would need to be signed by the supply = chain entity and the Verifier would need to have a policy that trusts = the supply chain entity in order for it to adopt endorsements (claims = about the device not included in the Evidence) into the verification = step. > =20 > I think Endorsement is the primary way a Verifier knows to trust an = Attester. It does allow for more claims to about the device (implied = claims) but it more fundamental than just adding claims. > Nms> Is this using the RATS Arch definition of =E2=80=9CEndorsement=E2=80= =9D? > If the entity implementing the Verifier is different from the entity = implementing the Endorser (aka supply chain entity), then the Verifier = must establish a trust relationship with the Endorser. If in a PKI = context, then the supply chain entity obtains an identity cert. The = entity implementing the Verifier obtains the trust anchor for the = Endorser and adds it to its list of trusted trust anchors. > =20 > The Endorser could issue a device cert to the device entity that = implements the Attester. When the Verifier receives a certificate path = to the key that signs Evidence, it observes the Endorser entity=E2=80=99s = trust anchor is in its list of trusted trust anchors. Therefore, the = entity implementing the Verifier trusts the entity implementing the = Endorser. (Sorry to be pedantic about the difference between Role and = Entity but it can be a source of confusion / talking past one another).=20= > =20 > I also don=E2=80=99t think Endorsements need to be signed. They just = have to be conveyed to the Verifier in a secure way. If the Verifier and = Endorser are the same company, the chip vendor, it might just be because = some system admin manually types them into the Verifier. > Nms> Agree. This is a case where the entity implementing the Endorser = is the same entity that implements the Verifier. Since the entity trusts = itself, the trust relationship semantic is uninteresting. The RATS = architecture expects multiple RATS Roles can be implemented on the same = entity. > =20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Endorsement claims could be applied even if no attestation Evidence = is supplied. The Verifier has to be confident the endpoint is a device = that matches the supply chain entity asserted claims. The Verifier might = build reputation in a device key over time or it might require use of a = key that was embedded by a manufacturer. How the Verifier becomes = convinced that the key is bound to the device is an open question. There = are many possibilities. However, a way that industry seems to be = following is for the device mfg to embed the key and issue a = certificate. There are lots of names for this: IDevID, mfg certificate, = endorsement key credential etc... > =20 > This is interesting.=20 > =20 > A self-signed token might have somewhat more value than an unsigned = token. If you assume that the signing key is at least somewhat = protected, you can decide you trust it on first use (TOFU) or build up = trust in it over time, or have your machine learning system take it into = account. > Nms> The self-signed token is a case where the signing key can be used = to build a reputation. The Verifier needs to maintain a history of = transactions involving the key. The main challenge with key reputation = systems is they assume the private key isn=E2=80=99t shared with an = attacker. The very next transaction could be the one the attacker = chooses to implement the attack. Verifier is assuming past performance = determines future performance; which may be a fallacy. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> The term "un|endorsed token" can be misleading because the operation = that links the mfg (endorser) to the token is the embedded signing key = and the device in which it was embedded. It makes more sense to say the = 'device' or the 'embedded key' is/isn't endorsed than to say the token = is/isn't endorsed.=20 > =20 > Agreed.=20 > =20 > I prefer endorsed / unendorsed attester and sign / unsigned token. No = use of "unendorsed token=E2=80=9D in Rats. > Nms> I=E2=80=99m still not sure I know what =E2=80=9Cunendorsed = token=E2=80=9D means in a RATS context. If a token is a CWT or a JWT = then they have to be digitally signed (or not). The idea of an unsigned = CWT/JWT is the topic of a draft you are writing correct? > =20 > I would really like to see a strong relation between Endorser and = Attester expressed in the architecture document.=20 > Nms> What does =E2=80=9Cstrong=E2=80=9D refer to? I think the = architecture already tries to say that multiple RATS roles can be = implemented by the same entity. This means an Endorser and an Attester = could exist on the same entity. There is intuition that the entity = implementing the Attester Role is a =E2=80=98device=E2=80=99. There is = also intuition that the entity implementing the Endorser role is a = supply chain entity. The idea that a single entity that implements both = roles is non-intuitive IMO. The supply chain entity and device entity = are almost always different. Possibly virtualization is an intuitive = case where the hypervisor =E2=80=98manufactures=E2=80=99 guest VMs. = However, the hypervisor doesn=E2=80=99t write the guest VM code and I = assume it isn=E2=80=99t using self-modifying code. There is still a = supply chain entity that writes the VM code using a development device = that is different from the hypervisor/VM device. ASLR is possibly = another intuitive case where the in-memory representation of the code = differs from the COFF/ELF representation shipped by a supply chain = entity. The loader/driver/OS implementing ASLR could be thought of as an = Endorser that produced the in-memory representation the Attester. Even = in this example, the loader depends on a supply chain entity for the = code image it randomizes. But a measurement of the pre-image would be of = no use to a Verifier. The loader would need to produce = =E2=80=98Endorsements=E2=80=99 of the in-memory image in order to = compare with measurements of in-memory image by an Attester. Do you have = different intuition for what it means when the entity implementing both = Endorser and Attester roles is the same? > =20 > The Attester is Endorsed.=20 > Nms> I=E2=80=99m not sure what this means. > Then the Attester Collects Claims to create Evidence about the Target = / Device. > Nms> Agree. > The Verify Nms> (Verifier?) only knows to trust the Attester based = receiving and Endorsement for the Attester. > Nms> I don=E2=80=99t understand this sentence. > =20 > Once the trusts the Attester,=20 > Nms> sentence is missing the subject. > then it trusts the Claims in the Evidence created by said Attester.=20 > Nms> I think this is trying to say that the device that has a key that = signs Evidence protects the key such that some other device couldn=E2=80=99= t posses the key and masquerade as the first device. ??? > Nms> If =E2=80=9CEndorsed Attester=E2=80=9D means the manufacturer = that implemented the device made sure that the key in the device is = unique; only bound to one device. And that the key is used to sign = Evidence. Then that aligns with the RATS Arch text that says =E2=80=9Can = Endorsement might be a manufacturer certificate that signs a public key = whose corresponding private key is only known inside the device's = hardware=E2=80=9D. Note, however that the focus is on the private key = and its device rather than on the RATS Role (Attester) or a RATS message = encoding format (Token, Certificate). The trustworthiness property is = the way the private key is bound to the device. The Endorsement is a = device-key-binding message (aka token, certificate, =E2=80=A6) = containing the public key, device identifier(s) and implicit or explicit = statements about how the private key was bound to the device. A = signature of the supply chain entity identifies who is asserting these = endorsement claims. The endorsement message doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily = have to be conveyed using the device. The supply chain entity could = convey it directly to the Verifier; e.g. via a web service.=20 > =20 > Or if you have an Attester doing self-signed, then there is no = Endorsement and you rely on TOFU or ML for trust. > Nms> Agree. Trust is based on Verifier building a reputation about the = key. > =20 > Or if you have an Attester producing unsigned tokens, then there you = are on your own as to how they are secured and how you figure out the = Endorsement. > Nms> Agree. Trust is baseless. > =20 > LL > =20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> An "endorsed token" could be easily confused with an Endorsement = (claims expressed as a CWT) signed by an "Endorser" aka supply chain = entity / manufacturer. This is also an 'endorsed token' but the = architecture would call it "Endorsements" not "Evidence". The thread on = "un|endorsed token" could (if I understand it correctly) also refer to = Evidence where the CWT is signed by a key that was/wasn't embedded by a = manufacturer but protected by the device?=20 >>=20 >> Given it is out of scope to define a format/encoding in RATS for = Endorsements, the term "endorsed token" that refers to an Endorsement = flow would never reasonably be a topic of discussion. But the = architecture doesn't artificially restrict Endorsement formats from = being CWT or JWT. If "endorsed" means "signed by an Endorser" then = claims un|signed by a mfg and encoded as a CWT/JWT could be referred to = as an "un|endorsed token". But that would conflict with its current = usage as Evidence.=20 >>=20 >> Since the Verifier treats Evidence and Endorsements differently it = doesn't make sense to equate them. >>=20 >> If the semantics of the term "endorsed token" means a token that was = signed by a key that was embedded in a device by a manufacturer that is = trusted based on its PKI trust anchor (public key). Then I agree the = term can be useful. But I don't (at present) believe it makes sense to = make it a part of the terminology in the architecture. An expression = like this is a statement of policy that a Verifier might seek to = enforce. The architecture should remain policy neutral IMHO.=20 >>=20 >> -Ned >>=20 >> On 3/3/20, 12:08 PM, "RATS on behalf of Giridhar Mandyam" = on behalf = ofmandyam@qti.qualcomm.com > wrote: >>=20 >> Thanks Laurence. >>=20 >> Going back to the discussion on the virtual interim, I believe my = usage of the term "Unendorsed" Token is correct assuming that the = architecture document adopts the description provided below. An = unsigned token is by extension unendorsed. A signed token can be = unendorsed as well, e.g. = https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation = . It seems that a = verifier would not distinguish between the two types of tokens under = most appraisal policies. >>=20 >> -Giri >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS > = On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade >> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 11:12 AM >> To: rats@ietf.org >> Subject: [Rats] Endorsements >>=20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Closing the loop on trust between the Attester and Verifier has = always seemed critical to me in Rats architecture. It is in all my = diagrams. There has to be some out-of-band interaction akin to CA=E2=80=99= s giving certificates to browser vendors or it doesn=E2=80=99t work. = =46rom conversations in Berlin, I now understand this is through = Endorsements. Here=E2=80=99s how I think it works. Does this seem right? >>=20 >>=20 >> Endorsements are critical and integral in the Rats architecture. = An Endorsement is the Verifier=E2=80=99s sole basis for trusting the = Attester. >>=20 >> A minimal endorsement includes a key to verify signatures on the = Attestation Evidence and some information about the vendor backing the = endorsement, the Endorser, perhaps just the name of the vendor or = perhaps a lot more. >>=20 >> In some use cases the Endorser may operate the Verifier. For = example, a chip vendor may operate an only verification service for = attestations from its chip. >>=20 >> Endorsements and Endorsers are of interest to the Relying Party = because it tells them something about how they might trust the Evidence. = For example, if the Endorser is a highly reputable chip vendor, they may = trust it quite a lot. If it is an unknown SW vendor, they may not trust = it much at all. >>=20 >> The Endorser will be the manufacturer of the Attester in some = cases. This manufacturer will make the HW and SW that make up the = Attester. They will put the signing keys into the Attester. They will = build a database of the corresponding public keys that are eventually = supplied to the Verifier in the form of Endorsements. >>=20 >> In other cases the Endorser might be an independent trust broker = and/or certification house. They don=E2=80=99t make the Attester, but = they know who did and qualify them in some way. They may do this for = many Attester vendors as an aggregation service. >>=20 >> The Relying Party comes to trust the Endorser through some = out-of-band process that is not specified in the Rats architecture. It = is most likely transitive through the Verifier. The Relying Party = decided to trust the Verifier and the Verifier decides to trust the = Endorser. >>=20 >> The mechanisms of out-of-band trust establishment is likely to be = through X.509 certificates, perhaps with TLS. The policy basis for trust = establishment may involve business decisions, legal agreements and = reputations. For example, a Relying Party may decide to trust prominent = chip vendors or device just by their reputation. In another example, a = Verification service may accept click-through legal agreements set up = Endorsements for a particular vendor. >>=20 >> In Android Attestation, Google is the Endorser. The Attester = manufacturers are the handset vendors and their suppliers. Google makes = the attestation keys and distributes them one to handset manufacturers = that generally comply with Google=E2=80=99s requirements. Google is also = the Verifier because they provide an only verification service. The = trust establishment between Endorser and Verifier is trivial because = they are the same. The Relying Party trusts Google because they are so = well known through TLS certificates. >>=20 >> For FIDO, the FIDO Alliance is the Endorser. Individual FIDO = Authenticator manufacturers (e.g. handset vendors) generate the = attestation keys, sign them into X.509 certificates and perhaps form a = certificate hierarchy. They send the root of this certificate hierarchy = to the FIDO Alliance which publishes them on their web site. In FIDO, = the Verifier is typically the Relying Party, so they take in all = necessary X.509 certificates to be able to verify all the way down to = the key uses to sign the Attestation Evidence. The FIDO Alliance also = supplies other information in the Endorsement, such as certification = status and various Authenticator characteristics (I=E2=80=99m equating = the FIDO Metadata service to an Endorsement service). >>=20 >>=20 >> Assuming this is right, it seems more could be added architecture = draft on Endorsements. >>=20 >> LL >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B7FFCA2C-1C54-4625-9D0B-8722BE1C8C8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s an attempt at more clear definitions; = hopefully a big improvement over my terse grammatically incorrect = comments below.

I = didn=E2=80=99t go into it below, but I think Endorsements can contain = implicit claims that can go into the Attestation Result. I think there = are actually two poles for the way implicit and explicit claims work and = how they get into the Attestation Result. In one case, more TPM-like, = just about all the claims are implicit and come from the Endorser via = the Endorsement. In the opposite case, more TEE-like, just about all the = claims are explicit and the Endorsement isn=E2=80=99t much more than a = verification key.

Pretty sure the architecture document needs to cover how = implicit and explicit claims work. Seems like a critical part of Rats = architecture.

LL


Endorser
The primary function of an = Endorser is to endorse an Attester so that a Verifier can know to trust = that Attester. The Endorser does this by creating an Endorsement and = conveying it securely to the Verifier. The primary basis for a Verifier = trusting an Attester is the Endorsement.

There is thus an existential = relationship between Attesters and Endorsers.  An Attester with no = Endorsement is not worth very much since there is no good basis by which = a Verifier can trust it so every Attester needs an Endorser. The = Endorser=E2=80=99s primary function is to endorse Attesters so an = Endorser doesn=E2=80=99t have anything to do without some Attesters to = endorse.

A = Verify cannot do its job without Endorsements. It must have an = Endorsement for each Attester from which it received Attestation = Evidence. Without this, the Attester is not trusted and there is no = basis for trusting the Evidence it produces.

There is a trust triangle between the = Endorser, Attester and Verifier. The Endorser tells the Verifier that an = Attester is trustworthy.

Endorsement
Ultimately = an Endorsement must be realized as some input bytes to a Verifier and = they must be conveyed securely from the Endorser to the Verifier. RATS = architecture does not impose any limit or restriction on the formats of = these bytes or the conveyance mechanism.  In practice they are = expected to vary quite widely.

In most cases the Endorsement will = include the key material that is used to verify signatures on the = Evidence. Since the Evidence will contain a nonce, this signature = verification serves to authenticate the attester. The Endorsement may = also contain information about the Attester such as its type, version, = manufacturer and such.

In one example, the Endorser and the Verifier are the same = legal organization, so secure conveyance is entirely an internal issue = for the organization. It may consist of one employee copying a set of = public keys from computer in the company to another.

In another example, the = Endorsement may take the form of a PKI hierarchy. The Endorser conveys a = root certificate to the Verifier. The Endorser also creates per-attester = certificates under that root. Those per-attester certificates are = programmed into Attesters. The Attester sends them to the  Verifier = attached to the Evidence. There may be several levels of certificates in = the PKI hierarchy. The Verifier walks the certificate chain to determine = trust.  Note in the case the abstract notion of Endorsement comes = to the Verifier in two parts, one in an out-of-band secure conveyance or = a root certificate and the other as the signed (self-securing) = certificates from the Attester.

Unendorsed = Attesters
The use of unendorsed Attesters = is discouraged because there is no good basis for establishing trust in = them. An unendorsed Attester may still have a signing key and produce = signed evidence. A Verifier may choose to have some trust in the = Evidence they produce by assuming they are trusted on first use (TOFU), = building up trust over time after seeing a lot of presumably good = attestation evidence, or because it is fed into a machine learning = algorithm that correlates to known fraud.  Rats architecture = include any facilities, details or designs for this mode of use and = explicitly considers it insecure.




On Mar 4, 2020, at 12:39 PM, Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

Nms> = inline below
 
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 4, = 2020 at 9:18 AM
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>, = "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] = Endorsements
 
 


On Mar 3, 2020, at 1:06 PM, Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com> = wrote:
 
Referring to Giri's = statement: "It seems that a verifier would not distinguish between the = two types of tokens under most appraisal policies"

I'm not sure this interpretation is correct. The Verifier = depends on appraisal policy that identifies trust anchors (public keys) = that are deemed "trusted". Trust anchor policies could identify a public = key pair that was embedded in a device as the anchor. Or it could = identify a supply chain entity that claims to have embedded a key pair = (and the Verifier policy doesn't yet know / trust the embedded = key). 
Endorsement is the ability for a supply chain entity to = assert more claims about the Attesting device than could be asserted by = the Attester. Clearly, the Endorsement would need to be signed by the = supply chain entity and the Verifier would need to have a policy that = trusts the supply chain entity in order for it to adopt endorsements = (claims about the device not included in the Evidence) into the = verification step.
 
I think Endorsement is the primary way a Verifier knows to = trust an Attester. It does allow for more claims to about the device = (implied claims) but it more fundamental than just adding claims.
Nms> Is = this using the RATS Arch definition of =E2=80=9CEndorsement=E2=80=9D?
If the entity = implementing the Verifier is different from the entity implementing the = Endorser (aka supply chain entity), then the Verifier must establish a = trust relationship with the Endorser. If in a PKI context, then the = supply chain entity obtains an identity cert. The entity implementing = the Verifier obtains the trust anchor for the Endorser and adds it to = its list of trusted trust anchors.
 
The Endorser could issue a device cert to the device entity = that implements the Attester. When the Verifier receives a certificate = path to the key that signs Evidence, it observes the Endorser entity=E2=80= =99s trust anchor is in its list of trusted trust anchors. Therefore, = the entity implementing the Verifier trusts the entity implementing the = Endorser. (Sorry to be pedantic about the difference between Role and = Entity but it can be a source of confusion / talking past one = another). 
 
I also don=E2=80=99t think Endorsements = need to be signed. They just have to be conveyed to the Verifier in a = secure way. If the Verifier and Endorser are the same company, the chip = vendor, it might just be because some system admin manually types them = into the Verifier.
Nms> Agree. This is a case where the entity implementing = the Endorser is the same entity that implements the Verifier. Since the = entity trusts itself, the trust relationship semantic is uninteresting. = The RATS architecture expects multiple RATS Roles can be implemented on = the same entity.
 



Endorsement = claims could be applied even if no attestation Evidence is supplied. The = Verifier has to be confident the endpoint is a device that matches the = supply chain entity asserted claims. The Verifier might build reputation = in a device key over time or it might require use of a key that was = embedded by a manufacturer. How the Verifier becomes convinced that the = key is bound to the device is an open question. There are many = possibilities. However, a way that industry seems to be following is for = the device mfg to embed the key and issue a certificate. There are lots = of names for this: IDevID, mfg certificate, endorsement key credential = etc...
 
This is interesting. 
 
A self-signed token might have somewhat = more value than an unsigned token. If you assume that the signing key is = at least somewhat protected, you can decide you trust it on first use = (TOFU) or build up trust in it over time, or have your machine learning = system take it into account.
Nms> The self-signed token is a = case where the signing key can be used to build a reputation. The = Verifier needs to maintain a history of transactions involving the key. = The main challenge with key reputation systems is they assume the = private key isn=E2=80=99t shared with an attacker. The very next = transaction could be the one the attacker chooses to implement the = attack. Verifier is assuming past performance determines future = performance; which may be a fallacy.



The term = "un|endorsed token" can be misleading because the operation that links = the mfg (endorser) to the token is the embedded signing key and the = device in which it was embedded. It makes more sense to say the 'device' = or the 'embedded key' is/isn't endorsed than to say the token is/isn't = endorsed. 
 
Agreed. 
 
I prefer endorsed / unendorsed attester and sign / unsigned token. No = use of "unendorsed token=E2=80=9D in Rats.
Nms> I=E2=80=99m still not sure = I know what =E2=80=9Cunendorsed token=E2=80=9D means in a RATS context. = If a token is a CWT or a JWT then they have to be digitally signed (or = not). The idea of an unsigned CWT/JWT is the topic of a draft you are = writing correct?
 
I would really like to see a strong relation between Endorser = and Attester expressed in the architecture document. 
Nms> What = does =E2=80=9Cstrong=E2=80=9D refer to? I think the architecture already = tries to say that multiple RATS roles can be implemented by the same = entity. This means an Endorser and an Attester could exist on the same = entity. There is intuition that the entity implementing the Attester = Role is a =E2=80=98device=E2=80=99. There is also intuition that the = entity implementing the Endorser role is a supply chain entity. The idea = that a single entity that implements both roles is non-intuitive IMO. = The supply chain entity and device entity are almost always different. = Possibly virtualization is an intuitive case where the hypervisor = =E2=80=98manufactures=E2=80=99 guest VMs. However, the hypervisor = doesn=E2=80=99t write the guest VM code and I assume it isn=E2=80=99t = using self-modifying code. There is still a supply chain entity that = writes the VM code using a development device that is different from the = hypervisor/VM device. ASLR is possibly another intuitive case where the = in-memory representation of the code differs from the COFF/ELF = representation shipped by a supply chain entity. The loader/driver/OS = implementing ASLR could be thought of as an Endorser that produced the = in-memory representation the Attester. Even in this example, the loader = depends on a supply chain entity for the code image it randomizes. But a = measurement of the pre-image would be of no use to a Verifier. The = loader would need to produce =E2=80=98Endorsements=E2=80=99 of the = in-memory image in order to compare with measurements of in-memory image = by an Attester. Do you have different intuition for what it means when = the entity implementing both Endorser and Attester roles is the = same?
 
The Attester is Endorsed. 
Nms> I=E2=80= =99m not sure what this means.
Then the Attester Collects Claims to = create Evidence about the Target / Device.
Nms> Agree.
The = Verify Nms> (Verifier?) only knows to trust the Attester based = receiving and Endorsement for the Attester.
Nms> I = don=E2=80=99t understand this sentence.
 
Once the trusts the Attester, 
Nms> = sentence is missing the subject.
then it trusts the Claims in the = Evidence created by said Attester. 
Nms> I think this is trying to = say that the device that has a key that signs Evidence protects the key = such that some other device couldn=E2=80=99t posses the key and = masquerade as the first device. ???
Nms> If =E2=80=9CEndorsed = Attester=E2=80=9D means the manufacturer that implemented the device = made sure that the key in the device is unique; only bound to one = device. And that the key is used to sign Evidence. Then that aligns with = the RATS Arch text that says =E2=80=9Can Endorsement might be = a manufacturer certificate that signs a public key whose corresponding = private key is only known inside the device's hardware=E2=80=9D. =   Note, however that the focus is on the private key and = its device rather than on the RATS Role (Attester) or a RATS message = encoding format (Token, Certificate). The trustworthiness property is = the way the private key is bound to the device. The Endorsement is a = device-key-binding message (aka token, certificate, =E2=80=A6) = containing the public key, device identifier(s) and implicit or explicit = statements about how the private key was bound to the device. A = signature of the supply chain entity identifies who is asserting these = endorsement claims. The endorsement message doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily = have to be conveyed using the device. The supply chain entity could = convey it directly to the Verifier; e.g. via a web service. 
 
Or if you have an Attester doing = self-signed, then there is no Endorsement and you rely on TOFU or ML for = trust.
Nms> Agree. Trust is based on Verifier building a = reputation about the key.
 
Or if you have an Attester producing unsigned tokens, then = there you are on your own as to how they are secured and how you figure = out the Endorsement.
Nms> Agree. Trust is baseless.
 
LL
 



An = "endorsed token" could be easily confused with an Endorsement (claims = expressed as a CWT) signed by an "Endorser" aka supply chain entity / = manufacturer. This is also an 'endorsed token' but the architecture = would call it "Endorsements" not "Evidence". The thread on "un|endorsed = token" could (if I understand it correctly) also refer to Evidence where = the CWT is signed by a key that was/wasn't embedded by a manufacturer = but protected by the device? 

Given it is out of scope to define a format/encoding in RATS = for Endorsements, the term "endorsed token" that refers to an = Endorsement flow would never reasonably be a topic of discussion. But = the architecture doesn't artificially restrict Endorsement formats from = being CWT or JWT. If "endorsed" means "signed by an Endorser" then = claims un|signed by a mfg and encoded as a CWT/JWT could be referred to = as an "un|endorsed token". But that would conflict with its current = usage as Evidence. 

Since the Verifier treats Evidence and = Endorsements differently it doesn't make sense to equate them.

If the semantics of the term "endorsed token" = means a token that was signed by a key that was embedded in a device by = a manufacturer that is trusted based on its PKI trust anchor (public = key). Then I agree the term can be useful. But I don't (at present) = believe it makes sense to make it a part of the terminology in the = architecture. An expression like this is a statement of policy that a = Verifier might seek to enforce. The architecture should remain policy = neutral IMHO. 

-Ned

On 3/3/20, = 12:08 PM, "RATS on behalf of Giridhar Mandyam" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf ofmandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> = wrote:

   Thanks = Laurence.

   Going back to = the discussion on the virtual interim, I believe my usage of the term = "Unendorsed" Token is correct assuming that the architecture document = adopts the description provided below.  An unsigned token is by = extension unendorsed.  A signed token can be unendorsed as well, = e.g. https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation. =  It seems that a verifier would not distinguish between the two = types of tokens under most appraisal policies.

   -Giri

   -----Original Message-----
   From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
   Sent: = Tuesday, March 3, 2020 11:12 AM
   To: rats@ietf.org
   Subject: [Rats] Endorsements

   ---------------------------------------------= ----------------------------
   CAUTION: = This email originated from outside of the organization.
   ---------------------------------------------= ----------------------------

   Closing the loop on trust between the = Attester and Verifier has always seemed critical to me in Rats = architecture. It is in all my diagrams. There has to be some out-of-band = interaction akin to CA=E2=80=99s giving certificates to browser vendors = or it doesn=E2=80=99t work. =46rom conversations in Berlin, I now = understand this is through Endorsements. Here=E2=80=99s how I think it = works. Does this seem right?


   Endorsements are critical and integral in = the Rats architecture. An Endorsement is the Verifier=E2=80=99s sole = basis for trusting the Attester.

   A minimal endorsement includes a key to = verify signatures on the Attestation Evidence and some information about = the vendor backing the endorsement, the Endorser, perhaps just the name = of the vendor or perhaps a lot more.

   In some use cases the Endorser may operate = the Verifier. For example, a chip vendor may operate an only = verification service for attestations from its chip.

   Endorsements and Endorsers are of interest = to the Relying Party because it tells them something about how they = might trust the Evidence. For example, if the Endorser is a highly = reputable chip vendor, they may trust it quite a lot. If it is an = unknown SW vendor, they may not trust it much at all.

   The Endorser will be the manufacturer of = the Attester in some cases. This manufacturer will make the HW and SW = that make up the Attester. They will put the signing keys into the = Attester. They will build a database of the corresponding public keys = that are eventually supplied to the Verifier in the form of = Endorsements.

   In other = cases the Endorser might be an independent trust broker and/or = certification house. They don=E2=80=99t make the Attester, but they know = who did and qualify them in some way. They may do this for many Attester = vendors as an aggregation service.

   The Relying Party comes to trust the = Endorser through some out-of-band process that is not specified in the = Rats architecture. It is most likely transitive through the Verifier. = The Relying Party decided to trust the Verifier and the Verifier decides = to trust the Endorser.

   The = mechanisms of out-of-band trust establishment is likely to be through = X.509 certificates, perhaps with TLS. The policy basis for trust = establishment may involve business decisions, legal agreements and = reputations. For example, a Relying Party may decide to trust prominent = chip vendors or device just by their reputation. In another example, a = Verification service may accept click-through legal agreements set up = Endorsements for a particular vendor.

   In Android Attestation, Google is the = Endorser. The Attester manufacturers are the handset vendors and their = suppliers. Google makes the attestation keys and distributes them one to = handset manufacturers that generally comply with Google=E2=80=99s = requirements. Google is also the Verifier because they provide an only = verification service. The trust establishment between Endorser and = Verifier is trivial because they are the same.  The Relying Party = trusts Google because they are so well known through TLS = certificates.

   For FIDO, = the FIDO Alliance is the Endorser. Individual FIDO Authenticator = manufacturers (e.g. handset vendors) generate the attestation keys, sign = them into X.509 certificates and perhaps form a certificate hierarchy. = They send the root of this certificate hierarchy to the FIDO Alliance = which publishes them on their web site. In FIDO, the Verifier is = typically the Relying Party, so they take in all necessary X.509 = certificates to be able to verify all the way down to the key uses to = sign the Attestation Evidence. The FIDO Alliance also supplies other = information in the Endorsement, such as certification status and various = Authenticator characteristics (I=E2=80=99m equating the FIDO Metadata = service to an Endorsement service).


   Assuming this is right, it seems more could = be added architecture draft on Endorsements.

   LL



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= --Apple-Mail=_B7FFCA2C-1C54-4625-9D0B-8722BE1C8C8C-- From nobody Thu Mar 5 08:30:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4383A17A2 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:30:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xdBu6CTCOda for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87DBA3A17B1 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 9tNmjJasjcbP99tNnjH3sr; Thu, 05 Mar 2020 09:29:59 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NcGYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=EUspDBNiAAAA:8 a=A1X0JdhQAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=9U5Pawy85TDeTbW8DFEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=SPyZKWWU61HHgP9Bi1oA:9 a=wOG_QkjOBF8IPu5N:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=rMCfJy6NHDicN4J276Yl:22 a=Df3jFdWbhGDLdZNm0fyq:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <19DB0C34-8718-449C-A379-BD2C8F137AE1@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F38CEF2A-6E91-43CD-A051-E9BB63D20239" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:29:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" To: Giridhar Mandyam References: <896C3359-953D-4408-B3DB-614761FF0D71@island-resort.com> <842A431A-E9E1-4895-A798-16F2B413385D@intel.com> <507E1F4D-1243-44FE-91E8-5411570F8F94@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGj4lM+NOXhPqnm0L4rZ/dapICnXp2aD3oMYvc5SbGOJxKB0CxOCVgIoWR2BbDt1B+OqaASF9KFPOHrvYXngB5uphk7zkeEEJLVxYkFdbUw1GUELujuD k6RB4vCT/JK/dwncs6sSMwygAsI3ZYHqJKM6nGW95hRe+cQeJVVyqTahH8INi/O8oT+sLMV4DYeD/N6ULBAW2YICZwCJQfTORkJX8F/jXBVX8PCHzM/6O9+c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsements X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 16:30:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F38CEF2A-6E91-43CD-A051-E9BB63D20239 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 4, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Giridhar Mandyam = wrote: >=20 > Nms> I=E2=80=99m not that familiar with FIDO attestation to know if = I=E2=80=99m interpreting terminology correctly. But if = =E2=80=9Cdomain-specific credential=E2=80=9D refers to a key that comes = into existence at the time a device is deployed into the =E2=80=98domain=E2= =80=99 then =E2=80=98self-signed=E2=80=99 could refer to something like = a CSR that results in a domain issued certificate where the domain CA = trusts the =E2=80=98self-signed=E2=80=99 request as proof that the key = belongs to the device on the opposite end of the currently connected CSR = session.=20 > =20 > FIDO has a concept of a scoped-credential, where an authenticator = credential is allocated for exclusive use by an authenticated domain = (e.g. example.com ). To be more specific =E2=80=93 = the credential is scoped to an RP ID = (https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#rp-id = ) =E2=80=93 which is derived from = the authenticated domain. An authenticator should not use the same = credential for multiple domains. There is no CSR operation, and the = authentication credential is used to sign the attestation in the = self-signed case. Maybe this use case is out-of-scope for the RATS = architecture. > =20 > -Giri > =20 >=20 I don=E2=80=99t think of keys scoped to RP IDs as attestation keys. I = think the are authentication keys. Attestation keys are always about the = device, never about the user, the RP or other non-device entities. For sure, attestation is a great way to set up such keys, but I don=E2=80=99= t think they relate to endorsement. LL --Apple-Mail=_F38CEF2A-6E91-43CD-A051-E9BB63D20239 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 4, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:

Nms> I=E2=80= =99m not that familiar with FIDO attestation to know if I=E2=80=99m = interpreting terminology correctly. But if =E2=80=9Cdomain-specific = credential=E2=80=9D refers to a key that comes into existence at the = time a device is deployed into the =E2=80=98domain=E2=80=99 then = =E2=80=98self-signed=E2=80=99 could refer to something like a CSR that = results in a domain issued certificate where the domain CA trusts the = =E2=80=98self-signed=E2=80=99 request as proof that the key belongs to = the device on the opposite end of the currently connected CSR = session. 
 
FIDO has a concept of a scoped-credential, where an = authenticator credential is allocated for exclusive use by an = authenticated domain (e.g. example.com).  To be more specific =E2=80=93= the credential is scoped to an RP ID (https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#rp-id) =E2=80=93 which is = derived from the authenticated domain.  An authenticator should not = use the same credential for multiple domains.  There is no CSR = operation, and the authentication credential is used to sign the = attestation in the self-signed case.  Maybe this use case is = out-of-scope for the RATS architecture.
 
-Giri
 


I don=E2=80=99t think of keys scoped to RP IDs as = attestation keys. I think the are authentication keys. Attestation keys = are always about the device, never about the user, the RP or other = non-device entities.

For sure, = attestation is a great way to set up such keys, but I don=E2=80=99t = think they relate to endorsement.

LL

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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0915_01D5F2E2.F673E9E0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8e69a4db-d507-49f9-c247-08d7c12404bc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Mar 2020 16:41:13.6898 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nHEXxYBPil54jYoHmHHGc0exS53u7gA/ZmXi8xmIGnWMkzs0JJWKI//+PEUjucRG X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3218 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Comments on draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-00: X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 16:41:21 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0915_01D5F2E2.F673E9E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0916_01D5F2E2.F673E9E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0916_01D5F2E2.F673E9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, Pruning the questions below to those which are open... From: Xialiang, March 5, 2020 2:42 AM Hi Eric, It's a very quick and detailed response, thanks a lot~~ Please see my further comments inline: From: Eric Voit (evoit) Hi Frank, Thanks very much for the comments. Some thoughts in-line... From: Xialiang, March 4, 2020 2:50 AM Hi Eric, This draft is a good start in the direction about using remote attestation for the end to end path calculation. The other interesting point is describing the netconf pub/sub model for remote attestation. ... 5. Too many verifiers in the Distributed Trusted Path Routing mode: according to your current content, every device can be a verifier to request the neighboring device's composite evidence. I think this design complicate the solution. Except a few verifiers, most of the devices only need to be the relying party, which just consume the attestation result in the composite evidence. Otherwise, every device needs to know each other's credential and Know Good Values as being the role of verifier, which is very complex, I think; I don't believe the Verifier B role is as complicated as it might first appear. The hardest part is acquiring the public keys of the TPMs of your peers. Beyond that, it is only the centralized Verifier A which needs to understand and approve KGVs. The relying party just needs to be able to compare time(y) PCR values to time(x) PCR values. If they are the same, Verifier B can accept Verifier A's Trustworthiness Level. Or as link layer protocols like 802.1x have tunable reauthentication timers, you could choose to accept the difference in PCR values for a single reauthentication cycle. As interesting PCRs shouldn't change too often, the transaction should be quite manageable. In fact, the number of transactions could go down as the relying party doesn't have to verify credentials as the state and identity of the Attester has already been examined by Verifier A. [Frank]: I agree you analysis for current PCR implementation, but if we consider more for future, maybe we need to support more claims and their verification on different devices as required, the distribution of KGVs still exist then. The passport model as described in Section 4.2 works because two instances of signed Evidence "Quotes" are coming from the TPM based attesting environment. Additionally the first Evidence Quote *must* be coupled with a Verifier's Attestation Result. There is no other assumption that Verifier be limited in the evidence it collects. This is why I am interested in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation's Figure 2. I believe a lot can be done with this construct, as long as we have guidelines on what Evidence might extend specific PCRs. Following are the mechanisms believe are viable for handling freshness. * For the distributed model o freshness is verifiable based on TPM Quote at time(y) [Frank]: it requires the time sync among the devices, right? No time synch between the devices is absolutely required. The nonce provided at (3) establishes freshness. * Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps from this draft include: (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different types of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and ima-log-trust-evidence. Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering easier? (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates. It is important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. [Frank]: I can help on these`~~ Excellent. As the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, hopefully we can establish a group willing to progress the concepts. Eric B.R. Frank Thank you! Eric Thanks! B.R. Frank ------=_NextPart_001_0916_01D5F2E2.F673E9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Frank,

 

Pruning the = questions below to those which are open...

 

From: Xialiang, March 5, 2020 2:42 = AM

 

Hi = Eric,

It’s a very quick and detailed response, = thanks a lot~~

 

Please see my further = comments inline:

 

 

From: = Eric Voit (evoit)

 

Hi = Frank,

 

Thanks = very much for the comments.  Some thoughts = in-line...

 

From: Xialiang, March 4, 2020 2:50 = AM

Hi Eric,

This draft is a good start in the direction about = using remote attestation for the end to end path calculation. The other = interesting point is describing the netconf pub/sub model for remote = attestation.

 

...

 

 

 

5. Too many verifiers in the Distributed Trusted Path = Routing mode: according to your current content, every device can be a = verifier to request the neighboring device’s composite evidence. I = think this design complicate the solution. Except a few verifiers, most = of the devices only need to be the relying party, which just consume the = attestation result in the composite evidence. Otherwise, every device = needs to know each other’s credential and Know Good Values as = being the role of verifier, which is very complex, I = think;

<eric> I don't believe = the Verifier B role is as complicated as it might first = appear.   The hardest part is acquiring the public keys of the = TPMs of your peers.  Beyond that, it is only the centralized = Verifier A which needs to understand and approve KGVs.   The = relying party just needs to be able to compare time(y) PCR values to = time(x) PCR values.  If they are the same, Verifier B can accept = Verifier A's Trustworthiness Level.    Or as link layer = protocols like 802.1x have tunable reauthentication timers, you could = choose to accept the difference in PCR values for a single = reauthentication cycle.

 

As = interesting PCRs shouldn't change too often, the transaction should be = quite manageable.  In fact, the number of transactions could go = down as the relying party doesn't have to verify credentials as the = state and identity of the Attester has already been examined by Verifier = A.

[Frank]: I agree you analysis = for current PCR implementation, but if we consider more for future, = maybe we need to support more claims and their verification on different = devices as required, the distribution of KGVs still exist = then.

 

<eric>  The passport model as = described in Section 4.2 works because two instances of signed Evidence = "Quotes" are coming from the TPM based attesting = environment.  Additionally the first Evidence Quote *must* be = coupled with a Verifier's Attestation Result.  There is no other = assumption that Verifier be limited in the evidence it = collects.   This is why I am interested in = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation's Figure 2.   I = believe a lot can be done with this construct, as long as we have = guidelines on what Evidence might extend specific PCRs.  =  

 

 

 

<eric> Following are the = mechanisms believe are viable for handling = freshness.

·        = For the distributed = model

o   = freshness is verifiable based = on TPM Quote at time(y)

[Frank]: it requires the time sync among the = devices, right?

 

<eric>  No time synch between the = devices is absolutely required.   The nonce provided at (3) = establishes freshness.

 

 

 

* Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I = believe help fill gaps from this draft include:

 

(1) the = possibility of several event streams to support different types of = Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and = ima-log-trust-evidence.    Maybe we would define a = hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering = easier?

(2) explicit identification of = the attestation-certificates.  It is important to explicitly = describe mechanisms to easily acquire these.

[Frank]: I can help on = these`~~

 

<Eric>  Excellent.   As = the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, hopefully we can = establish a group willing to progress the = concepts.

 

Eric

 

 

B.R.

Frank

 

Thank = you!

Eric

 

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

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15282224-911c-48b9-fe86-08d7c1313e8d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Mar 2020 18:15:54.2106 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: AH12w6v7N82SVYwH2i68H7JTFmkB3O9Q9/fiStBTHOXSFSZxyH33Shl2t8Sv7GE0pTc4xm2ucIxZP3Gx4Pp4dZnZ/RvVN8/TNXqyZVmE8Xo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3787 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 18:15:59 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB375384C9EF94EDD9856AE0A18FE20HE1PR0702MB3753_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps fr= om this draft include: (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different types of = Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and ima-log-trust-evi= dence. Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams to make subscription= filtering easier? (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates. It is importa= nt to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. [Frank]: I can help on these`~~ Excellent. As the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, hop= efully we can establish a group willing to progress the concepts. OK...well at least point 1 above corresponds to our implementation of this.= .. What is meant by hierarchy here? Do you mean ontology of claims? Ian -- Dr. Ian Oliver Cybersecurity Research Distinguished Member of Technical Staff Nokia Bell Labs +358 50 483 6237 ________________________________ From: RATS on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org Sent: 05 March 2020 18:41 To: rats@ietf.org Subject: RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 Send RATS mailing list submissions to rats@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to rats-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at rats-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..." --_000_HE1PR0702MB375384C9EF94EDD9856AE0A18FE20HE1PR0702MB3753_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 =

* Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-mod= el which I believe help fill gaps from this draft include:

 =

(1) the possi= bility of several event streams to support different types of Evidence: pcr= -trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and ima-log-trust-evidence. &= nbsp;  Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams to make subscription filtering easier?

(2) explicit = identification of the attestation-certificates.  It is important to ex= plicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these.

[Frank]: I can= help on these`~~

 

<Eric>  Excellent. &nbs= p; As the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, hopefully we can esta= blish a group willing to progress the concepts.

 


OK...well at least point 1 above corresponds to our implementation of this.= ..

What is meant by hierarchy here?  Do you mean ontology of claims?

Ian

--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

From: RATS <rats-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org <rats-request@ietf.org&= gt;
Sent: 05 March 2020 18:41
To: rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24
 
Send RATS mailing list submissions to
        rats@ietf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Mar 2020 11:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEC723A09AC for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 11:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 025J2q1E016917 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 5 Mar 2020 20:02:52 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.206.149.19) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 20:02:47 +0100 To: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 20:02:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.206.149.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 19:02:59 -0000 Hi Ian, no, a knowledge graph is way beyond the scope of the context here. The assumption is that the relation between streams is tree-like, effectively nesting streams in streams. "Subtrees" of streams probably inherit more general subscription characteristics from their relative "root". Ontologies include trees (the t-box concept taxonomies), but are also graphs beyond that as typically the directed object properties between domains and ranges "cross-connect" concepts in the taxonomy tree. I do not see a representation of these kind of relationships between streams in this "hierarchy of streams". There might be "multi-parents" allowed, though. Viele Grüße, Henk On 05.03.20 19:15, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > *Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps > from this draft include: > > (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different types > of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and > ima-log-trust-evidence.    Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams > to make subscription filtering easier? > > (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates.  It is > important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. > > [Frank]: I can help on these`~~ > >   Excellent.   As the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, > hopefully we can establish a group willing to progress the concepts. > > > OK...well at least point 1 above corresponds to our implementation of > this.... > > What is meant by hierarchy here?  Do you mean ontology of claims? > > Ian > > -- > > Dr. Ian Oliver > > Cybersecurity Research > > Distinguished Member of Technical Staff > > Nokia Bell Labs > > +358 50 483 6237 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RATS on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org > > *Sent:* 05 March 2020 18:41 > *To:* rats@ietf.org > *Subject:* RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 > Send RATS mailing list submissions to >         rats@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >         rats-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at >         rats-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..." > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Thu Mar 5 11:20:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551783A0A61 for ; 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boundary="_000_HE1PR0702MB3753793CC34CDA44022292B38FE20HE1PR0702MB3753_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia-bell-labs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fe51e5b9-4e2b-489d-c783-08d7c13a408e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Mar 2020 19:20:23.0038 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: daBEXx/L74O3OytbM2uTa66U7sl2GNOiPIvW6iovWIkR/uxEJRRwIk27Gt6b/2us1XXogmTN71BY8bBQW3mW41H0IPosOKZmtTCL7gHLgUM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3723 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 19:20:35 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB3753793CC34CDA44022292B38FE20HE1PR0702MB3753_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure that a knowledge graph is strict necessary, but the way things are= described below suggest that there is at least some classification of type= s of evidence (call it types, classes, whatever) - just wondering if this w= as in scope. What we have is a set of types describing the different kinds of claim - at= least so far we haven't seen any further structure suggesting relationship= s between these types - the list suggested below is more akin to what we ha= ve . Ian -- Dr. Ian Oliver Cybersecurity Research Distinguished Member of Technical Staff Nokia Bell Labs +358 50 483 6237 ________________________________ From: Henk Birkholz Sent: 05 March 2020 21:02 To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) ; rats@i= etf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 Hi Ian, no, a knowledge graph is way beyond the scope of the context here. The assumption is that the relation between streams is tree-like, effectively nesting streams in streams. "Subtrees" of streams probably inherit more general subscription characteristics from their relative "root". Ontologies include trees (the t-box concept taxonomies), but are also graphs beyond that as typically the directed object properties between domains and ranges "cross-connect" concepts in the taxonomy tree. I do not see a representation of these kind of relationships between streams in this "hierarchy of streams". There might be "multi-parents" allowed, though. Viele Gr=FC=DFe, Henk On 05.03.20 19:15, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > *Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gaps > from this draft include: > > (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different types > of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and > ima-log-trust-evidence. Maybe we would define a hierarchy of streams > to make subscription filtering easier? > > (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates. It is > important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. > > [Frank]: I can help on these`~~ > > Excellent. As the draft gets additional feedback from the WG, > hopefully we can establish a group willing to progress the concepts. > > > OK...well at least point 1 above corresponds to our implementation of > this.... > > What is meant by hierarchy here? Do you mean ontology of claims? > > Ian > > -- > > Dr. Ian Oliver > > Cybersecurity Research > > Distinguished Member of Technical Staff > > Nokia Bell Labs > > +358 50 483 6237 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RATS on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org > > *Sent:* 05 March 2020 18:41 > *To:* rats@ietf.org > *Subject:* RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24 > Send RATS mailing list submissions to > rats@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > rats-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > rats-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..." > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --_000_HE1PR0702MB3753793CC34CDA44022292B38FE20HE1PR0702MB3753_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure that a knowledge graph is strict necessary, but the way things are= described below suggest that there is at least some classification of type= s of evidence (call it types, classes, whatever) - just wondering if this w= as in scope.

What we have is a set of types describing the different kinds of claim - at= least so far we haven't seen any further structure suggesting relationship= s between these types - the list suggested below is more akin to what we ha= ve .

Ian

--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

From: Henk Birkholz <hen= k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Sent: 05 March 2020 21:02
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.co= m>; rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24
 
Hi Ian,

no, a knowledge graph is way beyond the scope of the context here.

The assumption is that the relation between streams is tree-like,
effectively nesting streams in streams. "Subtrees" of streams pro= bably
inherit more general subscription characteristics from their relative
"root".

Ontologies include trees (the t-box concept taxonomies), but are also
graphs beyond that as typically the directed object properties between
domains and ranges "cross-connect" concepts in the taxonomy tree.= I do
not see a representation of these kind of relationships between streams in this "hierarchy of streams". There might be "multi-parent= s" allowed,
though.

Viele Gr=FC=DFe,

Henk

On 05.03.20 19:15, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote:
> *Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model which I believe help fill gap= s
> from this draft include:
>
> (1) the possibility of several event streams to support different type= s
> of Evidence: pcr-trust-evidence, bios-log-trust-evidence and
> ima-log-trust-evidence.    Maybe we would define a hier= archy of streams
> to make subscription filtering easier?
>
> (2) explicit identification of the attestation-certificates.  It = is
> important to explicitly describe mechanisms to easily acquire these. >
> [Frank]: I can help on these`~~
>
> <Eric>  Excellent.   As the draft gets additional= feedback from the WG,
> hopefully we can establish a group willing to progress the concepts. >
>
> OK...well at least point 1 above corresponds to our implementation of =
> this....
>
> What is meant by hierarchy here?  Do you mean ontology of claims?=
>
> Ian
>
> --
>
> Dr. Ian Oliver
>
> Cybersecurity Research
>
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
>
> Nokia Bell Labs
>
> +358 50 483 6237
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of rats-request@i= etf.org
> <rats-request@ietf.org>
> *Sent:* 05 March 2020 18:41
> *To:* rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* RATS Digest, Vol 22, Issue 24
> Send RATS mailing list submissions to
>          rats@ietf.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>          rats-request@ietf.org=
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>          rats-owner@ietf.org >
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..."
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4422F3A0DA0; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 14:43:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vh4E4tGch25P; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 14:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F7CE3A0D95; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 14:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6823897A; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 17:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDF9108A; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 17:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 22:43:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good quoting, I'm repeating the important part } henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or Jim Schaad wrote: jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any jls> reason for it however. See below. henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., henk> that are not signed). jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks jls> like jls> while (true) { jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; } jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;} jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue } jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. jls> } jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra code to jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag. jls> IT IS jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more sense to jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. Emphasis mine. So your suggestion is to do nothing. I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to ask the question intelligently. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5hgI8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVFmAf9HuWf5vQH5hl78dS7wv14UNGY8eimlLiiJCXKKts6McvGcO4zKeqE6v9w 3yGv2eUeVjgeexj5EY0FPAiVbNQEhTeOu/a5/bOxNnE49qh/pJ7il3YcAVKyWGRi F/fs8irCVYePSFn5ZoctLY/TA+PorOEG0/77LbqGFi7RZkj+DVEqf81hs/jR21me djHKOtXQ8QCZDw1UXAsIMZof5bypxsuAZ2QUnZGx5LKJzv/98D7Ypm66TEXpdkPY 9DL2OvfWvBJkCQY5wTl13qUXY8BFzd4fQsa81eO3pLRKh/WHNCcQCQYskY0bc5m7 C0RYd4BYQLmNUQHx/BFxOYrTb6cRKg== =hh77 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Mar 5 16:48:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52683A0FAE; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 16:47:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwe3eX5euY03; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 16:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga06.intel.com (mga06.intel.com [134.134.136.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46EFF3A0FAC; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 16:47:54 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga003.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.27]) by orsmga104.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Mar 2020 16:47:53 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,520,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="241009530" Received: from orsmsx110.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.8]) by orsmga003.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2020 16:47:53 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.10.107]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 16:47:52 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , "ace@ietf.org" , "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? Thread-Index: AQHV8m3bGOeJvfyngU+T/FkyTZFx26g7IDoA//+cpQA= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 00:47:52 +0000 Message-ID: <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> In-Reply-To: <12861.1583448208@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.254.184.168] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1B06A3561797C344B84C742417202202@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 00:47:57 -0000 TXkgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24gb2YgdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQgd2FzIHRoYXQgQ1dUIHNwZWMgcmVxdWly ZXMgYXQgbGVhc3Qgb25lIG9mIChDT1NFX0VuY3J5cHQsIENPU0VfTUFDLCBDT1NFX1NpZ25hdHVy ZSkgb3IgaXQgaXNuJ3QgdmFsaWQgQ09TRS4gVGhhdCBpbXBsaWVzIHRoZSBwYXJzZXIgc2hvdWxk IG5ldmVyIGdldCB0byAiaWYgaW5wdXQgaXMgYSBtYXAiIGFzIGl0IGlzbid0IHZhbGlkIENPU0Uu IA0KDQpJZiB0aGUgYWJvdmUgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24gaXNuJ3QgdHJ1ZSB0aGVuIHRoZSAnZG8g bm90aGluZycgb3B0aW9uIGlzIGJlc3QuDQoNCi1OZWQNCg0K77u/T24gMy81LzIwLCAyOjQzIFBN LCAiUkFUUyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uIiA8cmF0cy1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBtY3IraWV0ZkBzYW5kZWxtYW4uY2E+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAg DQogICAgeyBJIGZvdW5kIEppbSdzIHZlcnkgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgZW1haWwgdmVyeSBoYXJkIHRv IHJlYWQgd2l0aG91dCBnb29kDQogICAgcXVvdGluZywgSSdtIHJlcGVhdGluZyB0aGUgaW1wb3J0 YW50IHBhcnQgfQ0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICBoZW5rPiAyLikgZ28gdG8gQUNFIGFuZCBhc2sgZm9y IGFuICJ1bnNpZ25lZCB0b2tlbiIgb3B0aW9uLCBvcg0KICAgIA0KICAgIEppbSBTY2hhYWQgPGll dGZAYXVndXN0Y2VsbGFycy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KICAgICAgICBqbHM+IEkgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSBh IHByb2JsZW0gd2l0aCB0aGlzLCBJIGFtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQgSSBzZWUgYW55DQogICAgICAg IGpscz4gcmVhc29uIGZvciBpdCBob3dldmVyLiAgU2VlIGJlbG93Lg0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICBo ZW5rPiAzLikgZ28gdG8gQ0JPUiBhbmQgYXNrIGZvciBhIHRhZyBmb3IgIm5ha2VkIiBDV1QgQ2xh aW0gU2V0cyAoaS5lLiwNCiAgICAgICAgaGVuaz4gdGhhdCBhcmUgbm90IHNpZ25lZCkuDQogICAg DQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gSSBkb24ndCBzZWUgYW55IGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGlzIGFu ZCBvcHRpb24gIzINCiAgICANCiAgICAgICAgamxzPiA0LikgSnVzdCB3cml0ZSB5b3VyIENXVCBj b2RlIGluIGEgc2Vuc2libGUgbWFubmVyLg0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICBqbHM+IE15IENXVCBjb2Rl IGJhc2UgZG9lcyBub3QgbWFrZSBhbnkgYXNzdW1wdGlvbnMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvcg0K ICAgICAgICBqbHM+IG9yZGVyIG9mIENPU0Ugc2VjdXJpdHkgd3JhcHBpbmcgbGF5ZXJzIG9uIGEg dG9rZW4uICBJdCB0aHVzIGxvb2tzDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gbGlrZQ0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICBq bHM+IHdoaWxlICh0cnVlKSB7DQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gaWYgaW5wdXQgaGFzIGEgQ09TRV9FbmNy eXB0IHRhZyB7IGRlY3J5cHQgaXQ7IHNldCBpbnB1dCB0byB0aGUgY29udGVudDsgc2F2ZSB0aGUg ZW5jcnlwdGlvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpZiBuZWVkZWQgZS5nLiBzaGFyZWQga2V5IGF1dGhlbnRp Y2F0aW9uOyBjb250aW51ZTsgfQ0KICAgICAgICBqbHM+IGlmIGlucHV0IGhhcyBhIENPU0VfTUFD IHRhZyB7IHZhbGlkYXRlIGl0OyBzZXQgaW5wdXQgdG8gdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQ7IHNhdmUgdGhlIE1B QyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpZiBuZWVkZWQgZS5nLiBzaGFyZWQga2V5IGF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uOyBj b250aW51ZTt9DQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gaWYgaW5wdXQgaGFzIGEgQ09TRV9TaWduYXR1cmUgdGFn IHsgdmFsaWRhdGUgaXQ7IHNldCBpbnB1dCB0byB0aGUgY29udGVudDsgc2F2ZSB0aGUgc2lnbmVy IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uOyBjb250aW51ZSB9DQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gaWYgaW5wdXQgaXMgYSBtYXAg LSByZXR1cm4gaW5wdXQgYXMgdGhlIHNldCBvZiBjbGFpbXM7DQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gdGhyb3cg YW4gZXhjZXB0aW9uIGJlY2F1c2UgaXQgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IGZvcm1hdC4NCiAgICAg ICAgamxzPiB9DQogICAgDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gVGhpcyBkb2VzIG5vdCByZXF1aXJlIGEgdGFn IGZvciBhIG5ha2VkIHNldCBvZiBjbGFpbXMgYW5kIHdvdWxkDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gYWxsb3cg dGhhdCBzZXQgb2YgY2xhaW1zIHRvIGJlIHBhc3MgaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgcGxhY2UgYXMgYSBDV1Qg Y2FuDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gYmUgcGFzc2VkLiAgV2hhdCB5b3UgYXJlIHN1Z2dlc3Rpbmcgd291 bGQgcmVxdWlyZSBleHRyYSBjb2RlIHRvDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gZXhpc3Qgc29tZXBsYWNlIHRo YXQgaXMgZ29pbmcgdG8gY2hlY2sgZm9yIGFuIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgdGFnLg0KICAgIA0KICAgICAg ICBqbHM+IElUIElTDQogICAgICAgIGpscz4gQUxTTyBHT0lORyBUTyBMRUFEIFRPIFBFT1BMRSBU SElOS0lORyBUSEFUIFRISVMgTkVXIFRBRyBTSE9VTEQgQkUNCiAgICAgICAgamxzPiBMRUdBTCBU TyBQTEFDRSBJTlNJREUgT0YgQSBDV1QuICBBZnRlciBhbGwgaXQgbWFrZXMgbW9yZSBzZW5zZSB0 bw0KICAgICAgICBqbHM+IGFsd2F5cyBpbmNsdWRlIGl0IHRoYW4gdG8ganVzdCBzb21ldGltZXMg aW5jbHVkZSBpdC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBFbXBoYXNpcyBtaW5lLg0KICAgIFNvIHlvdXIgc3VnZ2Vz dGlvbiBpcyB0byBkbyBub3RoaW5nLg0KICAgIEkgYWxzbyB3b25kZXJlZCB3aHkgdGhhdCB3b3Vs ZG4ndCB3b3JrLCBidXQgSSBoYWRuJ3Qgd3JpdHRlbiBlbm91Z2ggY29kZSB0bw0KICAgIGFzayB0 aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gaW50ZWxsaWdlbnRseS4NCiAgICANCiAgICAtLQ0KICAgIE1pY2hhZWwgUmlj aGFyZHNvbiA8bWNyK0lFVEZAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPiwgU2FuZGVsbWFuIFNvZnR3YXJlIFdvcmtz DQogICAgIC09IElQdjYgSW9UIGNvbnN1bHRpbmcgPS0NCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Thu Mar 5 18:16:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7D53A10FB; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:16:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ObesZezDUkgt; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EC473A10F7; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:15:55 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: "'Smith, Ned'" , 'Michael Richardson' , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> In-Reply-To: <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:15:54 -0800 Message-ID: <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPc7l4+GCW+nItGLs4R66gGWmpXQHDaFTrAg5IEhsBMlW0mKefsMNQ Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 02:16:06 -0000 I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would = agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was = instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special = marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to = distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap=20 where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could = easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org; = ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a = CWT or not to be a CWT? My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one = of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That = implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't = valid COSE.=20 If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is = best. -Ned =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = wrote: =20 { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without = good quoting, I'm repeating the important part } =20 henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or =20 Jim Schaad wrote: jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see = any jls> reason for it however. See below. =20 henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim = Sets (i.e., henk> that are not signed). =20 jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 =20 jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. =20 jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the = number or jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus = looks jls> like =20 jls> while (true) { jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to = the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; } jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the = content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue;} jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input = to the content; save the signer information; continue } jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. jls> } =20 jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and = would jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a = CWT can jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra = code to jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional = tag. =20 jls> IT IS jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG = SHOULD BE jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more = sense to jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. =20 Emphasis mine. So your suggestion is to do nothing. I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough = code to ask the question intelligently. =20 -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- =20 _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace From nobody Thu Mar 5 23:35:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4153A0904; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 23:35:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ttFzycSoZVvE; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 23:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40BE03A0903; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 23:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 0267ZH7F013379 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:35:18 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.206.149.19) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:35:12 +0100 To: Jim Schaad , "'Smith, Ned'" , "'Michael Richardson'" , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:35:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.206.149.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 07:35:29 -0000 Hi Jim, from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content. Viele Grüße, Henk On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: > I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like > > claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap > > where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM > To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? > > My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE. > > If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is best. > > -Ned > > On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" wrote: > > > { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good > quoting, I'm repeating the important part } > > henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or > > Jim Schaad wrote: > jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any > jls> reason for it however. See below. > > henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., > henk> that are not signed). > > jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 > > jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. > > jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or > jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks > jls> like > > jls> while (true) { > jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; } > jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;} > jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue } > jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; > jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. > jls> } > > jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would > jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can > jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra code to > jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag. > > jls> IT IS > jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE > jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more sense to > jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. > > Emphasis mine. > So your suggestion is to do nothing. > I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to > ask the question intelligently. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace > > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > From nobody Fri Mar 6 02:31:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122FF3A0C39; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 02:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PYte2hYCtFs3; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 02:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47E703A0C3C; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 02:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 026AUwVp022087 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:30:58 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.206.149.19) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:30:53 +0100 From: Henk Birkholz To: Jim Schaad , "'Smith, Ned'" , "'Michael Richardson'" , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> Message-ID: <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:30:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.206.149.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 10:31:15 -0000 Please let me correct myself: My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka "naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own subject more often...). I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags can be defined in any WG. There are multiple benefits to this approach: * parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case, * it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing), * we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and * we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related. Viele Grüße, Henk On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Hi Jim, > > from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here > "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make > sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register > a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some > content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In > contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear > semantic equivalence for the content. > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: >> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would >> agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was >> instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special >> marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible >> to distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something like >> >> claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap >> >> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element.   In this case one could >> easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned >> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM >> To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org; >> ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be >> a CWT or not to be a CWT? >> >> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least >> one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid >> COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" >> as it isn't valid COSE. >> >> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is >> best. >> >> -Ned >> >> On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" >> wrote: >> >>      { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without >> good >>      quoting, I'm repeating the important part } >>          henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or >>      Jim Schaad wrote: >>          jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I >> see any >>          jls> reason for it however.  See below. >>          henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim >> Sets (i.e., >>          henk> that are not signed). >>          jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 >>          jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. >>          jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the >> number or >>          jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It >> thus looks >>          jls> like >>          jls> while (true) { >>          jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input >> to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared >> key authentication; continue; } >>          jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to >> the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key >> authentication; continue;} >>          jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set >> input to the content; save the signer information; continue } >>          jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; >>          jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. >>          jls> } >>          jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims >> and would >>          jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as >> a CWT can >>          jls> be passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra >> code to >>          jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional >> tag. >>          jls> IT IS >>          jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG >> SHOULD BE >>          jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more >> sense to >>          jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. >>      Emphasis mine. >>      So your suggestion is to do nothing. >>      I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written >> enough code to >>      ask the question intelligently. >>      -- >>      Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >> From nobody Fri Mar 6 07:38:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150EB3A09D6 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:38:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ViWn69JzU8sf for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 354583A09D0 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id AF3EjuKphgX5OAF3Ej4HdA; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:38:12 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=H/ulPNQi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=0XtbOteLAAAA:20 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=l70xHGcnAAAA:8 a=VrHXGImtAAAA:8 a=mN-y9S7DSJMA7-8zbsQA:9 a=fezamol0LgihQ5Ud:21 a=0iCgnroI_H31GVVk:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10 a=hiN3_Khlxz5gRMh4U6AA:9 a=LG3yvq6I43YsfyTC:21 a=su3LXDZAtqDTm6Wg:21 a=QG3mCUyt7ZD5F6Ra:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=JtN_ecm89k2WOvw5-HMO:22 a=rjybpTLx1R2UrS7S5igv:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1A895FF5-6C48-4DF1-996D-3909BE72750D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:38:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de> Cc: Jim Schaad , "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , rats@ietf.org, ace@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org To: Henk Birkholz References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCnXA7IDimf9l8UTbqD7FLTv/LIbhl8AgK8bXfy5JLAhfaBYq/S3fJ0p1oWv6tyesVz5ZpHMBcoQ4k/VMX2g2/ppMAZNVjqdhgR7Yk1f9s/RJtdJ2N0p zCAM5z9xn1VdeRf1WykWndkqMBHUBN+3rt1yg0g29t1T8ph1IrOkgYqa3NGyBxXy/+VzV97fJ0yGU5i+AD+niZ2TOVCrjkH2LecjaJR6p2+hPGByIm1ua3MH 3tuFv3jA0Phafqtb4euHdHS1shOSF7sD2QFU91n+fMRgahoQbSupyrWvgDOunHThsqigkOVkNwwYFWtgKkxE4aLJUVqVR5UipZKpGRqE6Jvc727QWZ3WdpAp DLzrk9pU Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 15:38:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1A895FF5-6C48-4DF1-996D-3909BE72750D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we = would like considered as changes to CWT. 1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably tagged The point of the tag would be for use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t= tell a naked CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. So far we = seem to always assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for this = purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have the = tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code larger. 2) Disallow floating point dates Right now CWT allows dates like the expiration date to be floating = point. The only use of floating point dates is fractional seconds and = dates so large they are not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder = MUST implement floating point. This is a substantial burden for no good = reason at all. One option here is an incompatible change to these data = items. Another is to define new integer-only data items (new = labels/keys) for the same data items. 3) Claims Characteristics for new registered claims A lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats = and types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I = (hopefully) captured most of that in some recommendations for claims = characteristics. Text is currently here in a PR against the EAT draft = , but it seems it really = should be for all CWT claims. I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change = in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change = it. I proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they = should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that = made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates = or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other = ways.=20 LL > On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Please let me correct myself: >=20 > My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka = "naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made = me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own = subject more often...). >=20 > I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a = corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that = elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags = can be defined in any WG. >=20 > There are multiple benefits to this approach: >=20 > * parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case, > * it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing), > * we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and > * we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related. >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 >=20 > On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote: >> Hi Jim, >> from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten = here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to = make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to = register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the = some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE = array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a = clear semantic equivalence for the content. >> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >> Henk >> On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: >>> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would = agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was = instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special = marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to = distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like >>>=20 >>> claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap >>>=20 >>> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could = easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. >>>=20 >>> Jim >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned >>> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM >>> To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org; = ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to = be a CWT or not to be a CWT? >>>=20 >>> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least = one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. = That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it = isn't valid COSE. >>>=20 >>> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option = is best. >>>=20 >>> -Ned >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = wrote: >>>=20 >>> { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read = without good >>> quoting, I'm repeating the important part } >>> henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, = or >>> Jim Schaad wrote: >>> jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I = see any >>> jls> reason for it however. See below. >>> henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT = Claim Sets (i.e., >>> henk> that are not signed). >>> jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 >>> jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. >>> jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about = the number or >>> jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It = thus looks >>> jls> like >>> jls> while (true) { >>> jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set = input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. = shared key authentication; continue; } >>> jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input = to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue;} >>> jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set = input to the content; save the signer information; continue } >>> jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; >>> jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct = format. >>> jls> } >>> jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims = and would >>> jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place = as a CWT can >>> jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require = extra code to >>> jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an = additional tag. >>> jls> IT IS >>> jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW = TAG SHOULD BE >>> jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes = more sense to >>> jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. >>> Emphasis mine. >>> So your suggestion is to do nothing. >>> I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written = enough code to >>> ask the question intelligently. >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software = Works >>> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ace mailing list >>> Ace@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CBOR mailing list >>> CBOR@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >>>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_1A895FF5-6C48-4DF1-996D-3909BE72750D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on = EAT that we would like considered as changes to CWT.

1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, = probably tagged
The point of the tag would be for = use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t tell a naked CWT is a CWT by = the context of the protocol. So far we seem to always assign a tag to = new CBOR data structures for this purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it = seems we really should have the tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code = larger.

2) = Disallow floating point dates
Right now CWT allows = dates like the expiration date to be floating point. The only use of = floating point dates is fractional seconds and dates so large they are = not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder MUST implement floating = point. This is a substantial burden for no good reason at all. One = option here is an incompatible change to these data items. Another is to = define new integer-only data items (new labels/keys) for the same data = items.

3) = Claims Characteristics for new registered claims
A = lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats and = types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I (hopefully) = captured most of that in some recommendations for claims = characteristics. Text is currently here in = a PR against the EAT draft, but it seems it really should be for all = CWT claims.


I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more = things EAT would like to change in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of = CWT that would like to change it.


I = proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they = should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that = made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates = or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other = ways. 

LL


On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

Please= let me correct myself:

My proposal is to = simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka "naked") CWT Claims = sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made me loose the = perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own subject more = often...).

I think this is useful outside = of RATS as well and will start a corresponding draft in RATS to create a = more tangible proposal that elaborates on motivation & background: = as with YANG modules, CBOR tags can be defined in any WG.

There are multiple benefits to this = approach:

* parsers can choose to ignore = tags in any case,
* it is the least invasive approach = (next to doing nothing),
* we will not be the ones that = attempt to reopen RFC8392, and
* we detach this effort = from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk = Birkholz wrote:
Hi = Jim,
from an implementation point of view that is fine. To = quote Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the = whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it = does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that = adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed = via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and = enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content.
Viele = Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
Henk
On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim = Schaad wrote:
I would = not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT.  I would agree = that a CWT does require that some security be applied.  I was = instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special = marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to = distinguish the cases apart.   In CDDL I would put something = like

claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap

where the CWT is over a claimsMap = element.   In this case one could easily distinguish between = the two cases without additional tagging.

Jim


-----Original = Message-----
From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
To: = Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] = RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a = CWT?

My interpretation of this thread was = that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, = COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should = never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE.
If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' = option is best.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael = Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

     { I found Jim's very interesting = email very hard to read without good
     quoting, I'm repeating the important = part }
         = henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or
     Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
         jls> I = don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any
         jls> = reason for it however.  See below.
         henk> 3.) = go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e.,
         henk> = that are not signed).
         jls> I = don't see any difference between this and option #2
         jls> 4.) = Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner.
         jls> My = CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or
         jls> = order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus = looks
         = jls> like
         jls> = while (true) {
         jls> if = input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; = save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; }
         jls> if = input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save = the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; = continue;}
         = jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to = the content; save the signer information; continue }
         jls> if = input is a map - return input as the set of claims;
         jls> = throw an exception because it is not the correct format.
         jls> }
         jls> This = does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would
         jls> = allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can
         jls> be = passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code to
         jls> = exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag.
         jls> IT = IS
         = jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD = BE
         = jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more = sense to
         = jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it.
     Emphasis mine.
     So your suggestion is to do = nothing.
     I also wondered why that = wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to
     ask the question intelligently.
     --
     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
      -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8PR08MB4169 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] FW: New Version Notification for draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 16:59:33 -0000 RGVhciBhbGwsDQoNCldlIGhhdmUganVzdCBwdWJsaXNoZWQgLTA1IG9mIHRoZSBQU0EgdG9rZW4g ZHJhZnQuDQoNClRoaXMgdXBkYXRlIGlzIG1vc3RseSBjb3NtZXRpYyAtLSB3ZSBoYXZlIGFsaWdu ZWQgdGhlIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbg0Kb2YgdGhlIGNsYWltcyB0byB0aGF0IGluIHRoZSBFQVQgZHJh ZnQsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBDRERMLg0KDQpUaGUgb25seSByZWxldmFudCBjaGFuZ2UgKG5vdCBhdCBh IHNlbWFudGljIGxldmVsKSBpcyB0aGF0IHdlIG5vdw0KYWxsb3cgKGJ1dCBub3QgcmVjb21tZW5k KSBDT1NFIE1hYzAgYXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24uDQoNClBsZWFzZSBoYXZlIGEgbG9vaywgYW5kIHRo YW5rIHlvdSBpbiBhZHZhbmNlIGZvciBhbnkgZmVlZGJhY2suDQoNCkNoZWVycyENCg0K77u/T24g MDYvMDMvMjAyMCwgMTY6NTcsICJpbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmciIDxpbnRlcm5ldC1k cmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQoNCiAgICBBIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIEktRCwgZHJh ZnQtdHNjaG9mZW5pZy1yYXRzLXBzYS10b2tlbi0wNS50eHQNCiAgICBoYXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNz ZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IFRob21hcyBGb3NzYXRpIGFuZCBwb3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlDQogICAg SUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KDQogICAgTmFtZTpkcmFmdC10c2Nob2ZlbmlnLXJhdHMtcHNhLXRv a2VuDQogICAgUmV2aXNpb246MDUNCiAgICBUaXRsZTpBcm0ncyBQbGF0Zm9ybSBTZWN1cml0eSBB cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgKFBTQSkgQXR0ZXN0YXRpb24gVG9rZW4NCiAgICBEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOjIw MjAtMDMtMDYNCiAgICBHcm91cDpJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCiAgICBQYWdlczoxOQ0K ICAgIFVSTDogICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMv ZHJhZnQtdHNjaG9mZW5pZy1yYXRzLXBzYS10b2tlbi0wNS50eHQNCiAgICBTdGF0dXM6ICAgICAg ICAgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtdHNjaG9mZW5pZy1yYXRz LXBzYS10b2tlbi8NCiAgICBIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9o dG1sL2RyYWZ0LXRzY2hvZmVuaWctcmF0cy1wc2EtdG9rZW4tMDUNCiAgICBIdG1saXplZDogICAg ICAgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC10c2Nob2Zlbmln LXJhdHMtcHNhLXRva2VuDQogICAgRGlmZjogICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC10c2Nob2ZlbmlnLXJhdHMtcHNhLXRva2VuLTA1DQoNCiAgICBB YnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgICAgICBUaGUgUGxhdGZvcm0gU2VjdXJpdHkgQXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIChQU0Ep IGlzIGEgZmFtaWx5IG9mIGhhcmR3YXJlIGFuZA0KICAgICAgIGZpcm13YXJlIHNlY3VyaXR5IHNw ZWNpZmljYXRpb25zLCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIG9wZW4tc291cmNlIHJlZmVyZW5jZQ0KICAgICAgIGlt cGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucywgdG8gaGVscCBkZXZpY2UgbWFrZXJzIGFuZCBjaGlwIG1hbnVmYWN0dXJl cnMgYnVpbGQNCiAgICAgICBiZXN0LXByYWN0aWNlIHNlY3VyaXR5IGludG8gcHJvZHVjdHMuICBE ZXZpY2VzIHRoYXQgYXJlIFBTQSBjb21wbGlhbnQNCiAgICAgICBhcmUgYWJsZSB0byBwcm9kdWNl IGF0dGVzdGF0aW9uIHRva2VucyBhcyBkZXNjcmliZWQgaW4gdGhpcyBtZW1vLA0KICAgICAgIHdo aWNoIGFyZSB0aGUgYmFzaXMgZm9yIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwcm90b2NvbHMsIGlu Y2x1ZGluZw0KICAgICAgIHNlY3VyZSBwcm92aXNpb25pbmcgYW5kIG5ldHdvcmsgYWNjZXNzIGNv bnRyb2wuICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50DQogICAgICAgc3BlY2lmaWVzIHRoZSBQU0EgYXR0ZXN0YXRp b24gdG9rZW4gc3RydWN0dXJlIGFuZCBzZW1hbnRpY3MuDQoNCiAgICAgICBBdCBpdHMgY29yZSwg dGhlIENXVCAoQ09TRSBXZWIgVG9rZW4pIGZvcm1hdCBpcyB1c2VkIGFuZCBwb3B1bGF0ZWQNCiAg ICAgICB3aXRoIGEgc2V0IG9mIGNsYWltcyBpbiBhIHdheSBzaW1pbGFyIHRvIEVBVCAoRW50aXR5 IEF0dGVzdGF0aW9uDQogICAgICAgVG9rZW4pLiAgVGhpcyBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGRlc2NyaWJl cyB3aGF0IGNsYWltcyBhcmUgdXNlZCBieSBQU0ENCiAgICAgICBjb21wbGlhbnQgc3lzdGVtcy4N Cg0KDQoNCg0KICAgIFBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWlu dXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCiAgICB1bnRpbCB0aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQg dmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnLg0KDQogICAg VGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0KDQoNCg0KSU1QT1JUQU5UIE5PVElDRTogVGhlIGNvbnRl bnRzIG9mIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgYW5kIGFueSBhdHRhY2htZW50cyBhcmUgY29uZmlkZW50aWFsIGFu ZCBtYXkgYWxzbyBiZSBwcml2aWxlZ2VkLiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVj aXBpZW50LCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgYW5kIGRvIG5vdCBk aXNjbG9zZSB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgdG8gYW55IG90aGVyIHBlcnNvbiwgdXNlIGl0IGZvciBhbnkg cHVycG9zZSwgb3Igc3RvcmUgb3IgY29weSB0aGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gYW55IG1lZGl1bS4g VGhhbmsgeW91Lg0K From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:13:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839123A07BA; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:13:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-2ZhDnGOfgE; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8263C3A07BF; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:13:15 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Henk Birkholz' , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:13:10 -0800 Message-ID: <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPc7l4+GCW+nItGLs4R66gGWmpXQHDaFTrAg5IEhsBMlW0mAJcsQyDAXKra+OnglFbMA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:13:26 -0000 Henk, I want to re-iterate that this is not quite the same no/low cost = situation that leads me to say - yes just tag it and be fine. There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead one = into a situation where they are going to need to change their because = people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not just = when the claims are bare. That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could = be passed into the a COSE library to be signed and the tag would never = be stripped. There is also a small cost in terms of message size, but I assume that = you are willing to absorb that. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Henk Birkholz =20 Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 11:35 PM To: Jim Schaad ; 'Smith, Ned' = ; 'Michael Richardson' ; = rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Cbor] [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - = to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? Hi Jim, from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here = "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make = sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register = a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some = content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In = contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear = semantic equivalence for the content. Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: > I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would = agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was = instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special = marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to = distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like >=20 > claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap >=20 > where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could = easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. >=20 > Jim >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM > To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org;=20 > ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be = a CWT or not to be a CWT? >=20 > My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least = one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. = That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it = isn't valid COSE. >=20 > If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is = best. >=20 > -Ned >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = wrote: >=20 > =20 > { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without = good > quoting, I'm repeating the important part } > =20 > henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option,=20 > or > =20 > Jim Schaad wrote: > jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I = see any > jls> reason for it however. See below. > =20 > henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim = Sets (i.e., > henk> that are not signed). > =20 > jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 > =20 > jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. > =20 > jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the = number or > jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It = thus looks > jls> like > =20 > jls> while (true) { > jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input = to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared = key authentication; continue; } > jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to = the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue;} > jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set = input to the content; save the signer information; continue } > jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; > jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. > jls> } > =20 > jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims = and would > jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as = a CWT can > jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra = code to > jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional = tag. > =20 > jls> IT IS > jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG = SHOULD BE > jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more = sense to > jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. > =20 > Emphasis mine. > So your suggestion is to do nothing. > I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written = enough code to > ask the question intelligently. > =20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software = Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ace mailing list > Ace@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:24:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF0E3A083B; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:24:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pxNKwpMA-KKN; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C54A3A0839; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.147] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48YyGq5G9wz191b; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 20:24:19 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 20:24:19 +0100 Cc: Henk Birkholz , rats@ietf.org, Ace Wg , cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 605215459.201071-201240909d94d025f41c1f5a637f3497 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:24:24 -0000 Hi Jim, > On 2020-03-06, at 20:13, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead = one into a situation where they are going to need to change their = because people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not = just when the claims are bare. =20 So it should be made clear that this is not a valid CWT then. > That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could be passed into the a COSE = library to be signed and the tag would never be stripped. It obviously could, but so could be many other things, which also = wouldn=E2=80=99t be a CWT. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:47:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F143A08D9 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:47:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XSKhVbhnSYmp for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga04.intel.com (mga04.intel.com [192.55.52.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 376FD3A08D5 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by fmsmga104.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Mar 2020 11:47:09 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,518,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="320618962" Received: from orsmsx106.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.133]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2020 11:47:09 -0800 Received: from orsmsx154.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.12) by ORSMSX106.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:47:08 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX154.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.196]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:47:08 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Thomas Fossati , Laurence Lundblade , Kathleen Moriarty CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIAAJX2A///CxoCAAX9nAIABcUSA Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 19:47:07 +0000 Message-ID: <591F0481-CA43-48DD-A92A-79F5AAC2AFC3@intel.com> References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <027C9BEF-A8CD-457D-8E51-405276009F78@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.254.184.168] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <34A4C40BDBCF0043A616DD336D9095BA@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:47:13 -0000 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF823A091D; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:59:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsSrFk8X6gZ2; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF5D3A0919; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga007.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.52]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Mar 2020 11:59:13 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,523,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="233419708" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by fmsmga007.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2020 11:59:13 -0800 Received: from orsmsx157.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.23) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:59:12 -0800 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX157.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.95]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:59:12 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Carsten Bormann , Jim Schaad CC: "rats@ietf.org" , "cbor@ietf.org" , "Henk Birkholz" , Ace Wg Thread-Topic: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? Thread-Index: AQHV8+zc9Y1TwN0arEmFf2Tv/hQqNKg7+48A Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 19:59:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.254.184.168] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:59:17 -0000 VGhlIGVhcmxpZXIgdGhyZWFkIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCB0aGF0IGEgbmFrZWQgdG9rZW4gY291bGQgYmUg Z2l2ZW4gdG8gYSBwYXJzZXIgdGhhdCB3YXMgcHJvZ3JhbW1lZCBjb3JyZWN0bHkgYW5kIGl0IHdv dWxkICdqdXN0IHdvcmsnLiBCdXQgaWYgdGhlIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgYSBDV1QvSldUIGlzIHRo YXQgaXQgbXVzdCBoYXZlIGJvdW5kaW5nIHNpZ25hdHVyZSwgbWFjLCBlbmNyeXB0aW9uIGVudmVs b3BpbmcsIHRoZW4gdGhlIHBhcnNlciBzaG91bGQgcmVqZWN0IG5ha2VkIHRva2VucyAodGFnZ2Vk IGFzIHN1Y2ggb3Igbm90KS4gDQoNCklmIHRoZSBuYWtlZCB0b2tlbiBpcyBkZWZpbmVkIGFuZCB0 aGUgbWFwIGhhcyBhIHRhZyB0aGF0IGluZGljYXRlcyBpdCB3YXMgZm9ybWVkIHdpdGhvdXQgc2Vj dXJlIGVudmVsb3BpbmcgdGhlbiB0aGUgcGFyc2VyIHNob3VsZCBhY2NlcHQgaXQsIGJ1dCB0aGUg Y29kZSB1c2luZyB0aGUgcGFyc2VyIG5lZWRzIHRvIGZpbmQgc29tZSBvdGhlciB3YXkgdG8gZW5z dXJlIHNlY3VyaXR5LiANCg0KSWYgYSBwYXJzZXIgcmVjZWl2ZXMgYSBtYXAgd2l0aCBib3RoIHNl Y3VyaXR5IGVudmVsb3BpbmcgYW5kIHRoZSBuYWtlZCB0b2tlbiB0YWcsIHRoZW4gaXQgc2hvdWxk IHJldHVybiBib3RoIHRoZSBtYXAgYW5kIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBlbnZlbG9wZSBjb250ZXh0IGFu ZCBsZXQgdGhlIGNvZGUgdXNpbmcgdGhlIHBhcnNlciBkZWNpZGUgaWYgdGhlIHNlY3VyaXR5IGNv bnRleHQgc2F0aXNmaWVzIHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSByZXF1aXJlbWVudC4NCg0KLU5lZA0KDQrvu79P biAzLzYvMjAsIDExOjI0IEFNLCAiUkFUUyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIiA8 cmF0cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0K DQogICAgSGkgSmltLA0KICAgIA0KICAgID4gT24gMjAyMC0wMy0wNiwgYXQgMjA6MTMsIEppbSBT Y2hhYWQgPGlldGZAYXVndXN0Y2VsbGFycy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KICAgID4gDQogICAgPiBUaGVy ZSBpcyBhIHZlcnkgaGlnaCBjaGFuY2UgdGhhdCBtYWtpbmcgdGhpcyBjaGFuZ2UgaXMgZ29pbmcg dG8gbGVhZCBvbmUgaW50byBhIHNpdHVhdGlvbiB3aGVyZSB0aGV5IGFyZSBnb2luZyB0byBuZWVk IHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGVpciBiZWNhdXNlIHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgZ29pbmcgdG8gc3RhcnQgdXNpbmcg dGhpcyB0YWcgYWxsIG9mIHRoZSB0aW1lIGFuZCBub3QganVzdCB3aGVuIHRoZSBjbGFpbXMgYXJl IGJhcmUuICANCiAgICANCiAgICBTbyBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgbWFkZSBjbGVhciB0aGF0IHRoaXMg aXMgbm90IGEgdmFsaWQgQ1dUIHRoZW4uDQogICAgDQogICAgPiBUaGF0IGlzIHRoZSAidW5zaWdu ZWQgQ1dUIENsYWltcyBTZXQiIGNvdWxkIGJlIHBhc3NlZCBpbnRvIHRoZSBhIENPU0UgbGlicmFy eSB0byBiZSBzaWduZWQgYW5kIHRoZSB0YWcgd291bGQgbmV2ZXIgYmUgc3RyaXBwZWQuDQogICAg DQogICAgSXQgb2J2aW91c2x5IGNvdWxkLCBidXQgc28gY291bGQgYmUgbWFueSBvdGhlciB0aGlu Z3MsIHdoaWNoIGFsc28gd291bGRu4oCZdCBiZSBhIENXVC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBHcsO8w59lLCBD YXJzdGVuDQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18NCiAgICBSQVRTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3JhdHMNCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Fri Mar 6 12:04:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECF23A0971; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQYkVys3tlcr; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B24B3A096E; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.147] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48Yz8l6DR2z18v3; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 21:04:07 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 21:04:07 +0100 Cc: Jim Schaad , "rats@ietf.org" , Ace Wg , Henk Birkholz , "cbor@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 605217847.22778-b7357b388bac625166f5f13328a2a580 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> To: "Smith, Ned" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 20:04:15 -0000 Hi Ned, What I was trying to say is that the Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) = is not a CWT, but an UCCS. So I wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token (which = implies some form of protection to me). But it is still a useful data = structure to carry around. > On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > The earlier thread suggested that a naked token could be given to a = parser that was programmed correctly and it would 'just work'. But if = the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must have bounding signature, = mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser should reject naked tokens = (tagged as such or not).=20 A CWT decoder would diagnose an UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D. A CWT/UCCS decoder would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D. > If the naked token is defined and the map has a tag that indicates it = was formed without secure enveloping then the parser should accept it, = but the code using the parser needs to find some other way to ensure = security.=20 Right. An UCCS is only a useful assertion if received over a secure = channel with the right properties to make it a useful assertion. > If a parser receives a map with both security enveloping and the naked = token tag, then it should return both the map and the security envelope = context and let the code using the parser decide if the security context = satisfies the security requirement. Well, it should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not an = UCCS either). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Mar 6 12:04:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161163A09A7; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMKnrERBYqPK; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E442D3A0939; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:36 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Laurence Lundblade' , 'Henk Birkholz' CC: , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <600c2555-75af-a4dc-98c8-206a91b1af52@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:04:34 -0800 Message-ID: <01b501d5f3f2$76eebbd0$64cc3370$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B6_01D5F3AF.68CD2980" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIPc7l4+GCW+nItGLs4R66gGWmpXQHDaFTrAg5IEhsBMlW0mAJcsQyDAXKra+MB77wHngFJU4MWp2iWHLA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 20:04:48 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_01B6_01D5F3AF.68CD2980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 From: Laurence Lundblade =20 Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 7:38 AM To: Henk Birkholz Cc: Jim Schaad ; Smith, Ned = ; Michael Richardson ; = rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - = to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? =20 So far, there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we = would like considered as changes to CWT. =20 1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably tagged The point of the tag would be for use in protocols where you = can=E2=80=99t tell a naked CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. = So far we seem to always assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for = this purpose. For naked CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have = the tag, even if it makes Jim=E2=80=99s code larger. =20 2) Disallow floating point dates Right now CWT allows dates like the expiration date to be floating = point. The only use of floating point dates is fractional seconds and = dates so large they are not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder = MUST implement floating point. This is a substantial burden for no good = reason at all. One option here is an incompatible change to these data = items. Another is to define new integer-only data items (new = labels/keys) for the same data items. =20 =20 [JLS] As far as I am concerned this is just a profiling effort. I also = agree that it makes almost no sense to use floating point for dates in = almost all cases where CWT claims have been created. =20 3) Claims Characteristics for new registered claims A lot of people had a lot of opinions and points on what data formats = and types and such were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I = (hopefully) captured most of that in some recommendations for claims = characteristics. Text is currently here in a PR against the EAT draft = , but it seems it really = should be for all CWT claims. =20 [JLS] After one fast read, I think that these are good generic = suggestions, however I disagree that this should be true for all CWT = claims. There is an explicit expert review section that is designed for = the registration of extremely explicit claims that will violate these = guidelines. =20 =20 jim =20 I don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change = in CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change = it. =20 =20 I proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they = should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that = made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates = or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other = ways.=20 =20 LL =20 On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz = > wrote: =20 Please let me correct myself: My proposal is to simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka = "naked") CWT Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made = me loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own = subject more often...). I think this is useful outside of RATS as well and will start a = corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible proposal that = elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG modules, CBOR tags = can be defined in any WG. There are multiple benefits to this approach: * parsers can choose to ignore tags in any case, * it is the least invasive approach (next to doing nothing), * we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, and * we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is CWT-related. Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk On 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote: Hi Jim, from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here = "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make = sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register = a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some = content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In = contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear = semantic equivalence for the content. Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would = agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was = instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special = marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to = distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like claimsMade =3D CWT / claimsMap where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could = easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Ace > On = Behalf Of Smith, Ned Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM To: Michael Richardson >; rats@ietf.org ; = ace@ietf.org ; cbor@ietf.org = =20 Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a = CWT or not to be a CWT? My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one = of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That = implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't = valid COSE. If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is = best. -Ned =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = on behalf of = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca > wrote: { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without = good quoting, I'm repeating the important part } henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, or Jim Schaad = > wrote: jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see = any jls> reason for it however. See below. henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim = Sets (i.e., henk> that are not signed). jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the = number or jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It = thus looks jls> like jls> while (true) { jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to = the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; } jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to = the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue;} jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input = to the content; save the signer information; continue } jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. jls> } jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and = would jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a = CWT can jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra = code to jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional = tag. jls> IT IS jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG = SHOULD BE jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more = sense to jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. Emphasis mine. So your suggestion is to do nothing. I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough = code to ask the question intelligently. -- Michael Richardson >, Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- _______________________________________________ Ace mailing list Ace@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =20 ------=_NextPart_000_01B6_01D5F3AF.68CD2980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: Laurence Lundblade = <lgl@island-resort.com>
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 = 7:38 AM
To: Henk Birkholz = <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Jim Schaad = <ietf@augustcellars.com>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; = Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; = ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] = RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a = CWT?

 

So far, = there are three things we have turned up in work on EAT that we would = like considered as changes to CWT.

 

1) Naked CWT=E2=80=99s, probably = tagged

The point of the = tag would be for use in protocols where you can=E2=80=99t tell a naked = CWT is a CWT by the context of the protocol. So far we seem to always = assign a tag to new CBOR data structures for this purpose. For naked = CWT=E2=80=99s, it seems we really should have the tag, even if it makes = Jim=E2=80=99s code larger.

 

2) Disallow floating point = dates

Right now CWT allows = dates like the expiration date to be floating point. The only use of = floating point dates is fractional seconds and dates so large they are = not human time scale. As it stands a CWT decoder MUST implement floating = point. This is a substantial burden for no good reason at all. One = option here is an incompatible change to these data items. Another is to = define new integer-only data items (new labels/keys) for the same data = items.

 

 

[JLS] As far = as I am concerned this is just a profiling effort.=C2=A0 I also agree = that it makes almost no sense to use floating point for dates in almost = all cases where CWT claims have been = created.

 

3) Claims Characteristics for new registered = claims

A lot of people had = a lot of opinions and points on what data formats and types and such = were used for claims back in 2019 in EAT. I (hopefully) captured most of = that in some recommendations for claims characteristics. Text is = currently here in = a PR against the EAT draft, but it seems it really should be for all = CWT claims.

 

[JLS]=C2=A0 After one fast read, I think that these = are good generic suggestions, however I disagree that this should be = true for all CWT claims.=C2=A0 There is an explicit expert review = section that is designed for the registration of extremely explicit = claims that will violate these guidelines.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =

 

jim

 

I = don=E2=80=99t know if there are more things EAT would like to change in = CWT. Or maybe there are other uses of CWT that would like to change = it.

 

 

I = proposed that EAT be an update to the CWT RFC. Dave Thaler said they = should probably be separate from EAT and handled in the ACE WG and that = made sense to most of us. Seems to me that a new RFC that either updates = or obsoletes 8392 would be the thing to do, but maybe there are other = ways. 

 

LL

 



On Mar 6, 2020, at 2:30 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de> wrote:

 

Please let me correct myself:

My proposal is to = simply assign a single CBOR tag for unsigned (aka "naked") CWT = Claims sets. I wrote "EAT" Claims Set before and that made me = loose the perspective that an EAT is a CWT (I should read my own subject = more often...).

I think this is useful outside of RATS as well = and will start a corresponding draft in RATS to create a more tangible = proposal that elaborates on motivation & background: as with YANG = modules, CBOR tags can be defined in any WG.

There are multiple = benefits to this approach:

* parsers can choose to ignore tags in = any case,
* it is the least invasive approach (next to doing = nothing),
* we will not be the ones that attempt to reopen RFC8392, = and
* we detach this effort from progressing EAT as it is = CWT-related.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


On = 06.03.20 08:35, Henk Birkholz wrote:

Hi = Jim,
from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote = Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the = whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it = does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that = adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed = via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and = enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content.
Viele = Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
Henk
On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad = wrote:

I would not claim that a collection of = CWT claims is a CWT.  I would agree that a CWT does require that = some security be applied.  I was instead making the argument that = there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose = to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases = apart.   In CDDL I would put something like

claimsMade = =3D CWT / claimsMap

where the CWT is over a claimsMap = element.   In this case one could easily distinguish between = the two cases without additional = tagging.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Ace = <ace-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM
To: = Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ace] = [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a = CWT?

My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires = at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't = valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input = is a map" as it isn't valid COSE.

If the above = interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is = best.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on = behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on = behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> = wrote:

     { I found Jim's very interesting = email very hard to read without good
     = quoting, I'm repeating the important part = }
         henk> 2.) go to = ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, = or
     Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> = wrote:
         jls> I = don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see = any
         jls> reason = for it however.  See = below.
         henk> 3.) = go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets = (i.e.,
         henk> that = are not signed).
         = jls> I don't see any difference between this and option = #2
         jls> 4.) Just = write your CWT code in a sensible = manner.
         jls> My = CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number = or
         jls> order of = COSE security wrapping layers on a token.  It thus = looks
         jls> = like
         jls> while = (true) {
         jls> if = input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; = save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key = authentication; continue; = }
         jls> if input = has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC = information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; = continue;}
         jls> = if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the = content; save the signer information; continue = }
         jls> if input = is a map - return input as the set of = claims;
         jls> = throw an exception because it is not the correct = format.
         jls> = }
         jls> This does = not require a tag for a naked set of claims and = would
         jls> allow = that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT = can
         jls> be = passed.  What you are suggesting would require extra code = to
         jls> exist = someplace that is going to check for an additional = tag.
         jls> IT = IS
         jls> ALSO = GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD = BE
         jls> LEGAL TO = PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT.  After all it makes more sense = to
         jls> always = include it than to just sometimes include = it.
     Emphasis = mine.
     So your suggestion is to do = nothing.
     I also wondered why that wouldn't = work, but I hadn't written enough code to
     = ask the question intelligently.
     = --
     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, = Sandelman Software Works
      -=3D IPv6 IoT = consulting = =3D-

_______________________________________________
Ace = mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ace

__________________________________________= _____
CBOR mailing list
CBOR@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/cbor


_______________________________________________
= RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/rats

 

------=_NextPart_000_01B6_01D5F3AF.68CD2980-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 14:52:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0763A0CDE for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:52:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHh0LwMeKh8i for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AF5E3A0CDA for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F94B3897D for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E315D10 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 22:52:36 -0000 --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Laurence Lundblade wrote: > For the sake of Interoperability, the JWT format is strongly preferred > for attestation results. If the Verifier is passing on any claims from > Attestation Evidence, then it should convert them to JWT format. > Similarly, for the sake of Interoperability, the CWT and JWTs formats > are preferred for Attestation Evidence, though it is understood that in > many use cases other extant serialization formats will have to be > used. I think that those are reasonable things to state. I would even go to CWT-only for Evidence, but that's me. (I guess in the background-check flow, JWT makes life somewhat easier) The key thing to realize is that a given Attester will speak only one format, likely determined (by fiat) by the designer of the Attester. A given Verifier/Relying Party interaction will speak only one format. Whether it is the Verifier or the Relying Party gets to specify the format is probably going to be determined by Market Capitalization rather than technical merits. But, to the extent that the IETF has been successful in promoting interoperability, it has often been to constrain the translation from un-cooperative "SDO"s specifications to ones that we control. {I think that's as nice as I can be} So the life of the Verifier will be difficult, as was the life of the LotusNotes/SMTP gateway and the X.500(EAN!)/SMTP gateway. But, observe what happened there: SMTP won, and everything is mostly SMTP, except when it's jSMTP. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Signature -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5i1DEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWoHAf/dgH1TJIZthM+bUYBEBh7PvrUzFWNJbHJ/5AKY/jUS5x0xxaGLEuhB+ps yWvR9BTg92uLr0dwG5RHvQqecq/Mga4GWl+ol8qBgonUwLULbntUTDm8HXnj1xFV fiVb+nu88chV1o4txT9eQE9gSwmkdj9A8l8d5wuuugTemZ3mMf1UiAC4BKtJV9w9 YjyU4mLA2k7DNelR2ow3LeMBaoxxJ3XwJmdB8louN/0nNGGBMdDYWJZOFeKS5Gjh oSrZUgy+0+bqoA9VfdHLUIy47f+GQff6nNgsZrfJYZiKE1cmNFFSa/meRRBcs/Oy O+IMmzmbSFeTyvQHuhTEH1W9QTL8eg== =eneJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 15:57:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FD93A0DD9; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:56:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjiO9rdEK1Wd; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F4FD3A0DD7; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 026Nud9H024833 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:56:40 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.206.149.19) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:56:34 +0100 To: Jim Schaad , , , References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:56:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.206.149.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 23:56:54 -0000 Hi Jim, I never intended an unprotected CWT Claims Set to be a CWT anymore, because by definition it would not be one any more, today. I'll try to be more explicit and clear: An unprotected CWT Claims Set is not a change to CWT, but a new thing based on the definition of CWT Claims Set in RFC8392 and that new thing cannot be a CWT. The semantics of the registered claims are the same though, because a CWT Claims Set is composed of claims defined in the CWT Claims registry. I also agree with your point that simply replacing CWT with unprotected CCS would be nonsense in implementation/practice. Assuming that this leads to a very high chance of unprotected CCS taking over all the CWT use cases (which should also result in "not a CWT", I think) seems to be a bit of a drastic projection, don't you think? Especially, considering that CWT are intended be always appropriately identifiable (I assume you are very familiar with https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8392#section-6). Unprotected CCS must be unmistakably & appropriately identifiable as what they are, analogously. I do not quite follow the reasoning why anyone using CWT or intending to use CWT today would be "lead into a situation where to change their tag" all of the sudden? Could you elaborate on that please? If you put a tagged unprotected CCS in a COSE that would of course again be a violation - that is simply not a viable CWT anymore and a very weird way to interpret "unprotected", if I may add. If a minimal set of normative requirements (based on the topics discussed previously) are added, I am rather certain that implementers will not start to omit COSE from CWT Claims Sets and try to send these as CWT. Maybe I am still missing something very obvious that you are trying to tell me, though :) Viele Grüße, Henk On 06.03.20 20:13, Jim Schaad wrote: > Henk, > > I want to re-iterate that this is not quite the same no/low cost situation that leads me to say - yes just tag it and be fine. > > There is a very high chance that making this change is going to lead one into a situation where they are going to need to change their because people are going to start using this tag all of the time and not just when the claims are bare. That is the "unsigned CWT Claims Set" could be passed into the a COSE library to be signed and the tag would never be stripped. > > There is also a small cost in terms of message size, but I assume that you are willing to absorb that. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Birkholz > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 11:35 PM > To: Jim Schaad ; 'Smith, Ned' ; 'Michael Richardson' ; rats@ietf.org; ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Cbor] [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? > > Hi Jim, > > from an implementation point of view that is fine. To quote Carsten here "tags are cheap" and you would have to parse the whole structure to make sure it is an EAT Claims Set. My point is, it does not hurt to register a CBOR tag for an unsigned EAT Claims Set that adheres to the some content definitions as EAT, but that is not signed via a COSE array. In contrast, in most cases it does help, I think, and enables a clear semantic equivalence for the content. > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > On 06.03.20 03:15, Jim Schaad wrote: >> I would not claim that a collection of CWT claims is a CWT. I would agree that a CWT does require that some security be applied. I was instead making the argument that there was no need to have a special marking for the collection as oppose to the CWT since it is possible to distinguish the cases apart. In CDDL I would put something like >> >> claimsMade = CWT / claimsMap >> >> where the CWT is over a claimsMap element. In this case one could easily distinguish between the two cases without additional tagging. >> >> Jim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ace On Behalf Of Smith, Ned >> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:48 PM >> To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org; >> ace@ietf.org; cbor@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ace] [Rats] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? >> >> My interpretation of this thread was that CWT spec requires at least one of (COSE_Encrypt, COSE_MAC, COSE_Signature) or it isn't valid COSE. That implies the parser should never get to "if input is a map" as it isn't valid COSE. >> >> If the above interpretation isn't true then the 'do nothing' option is best. >> >> -Ned >> >> On 3/5/20, 2:43 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" wrote: >> >> >> { I found Jim's very interesting email very hard to read without good >> quoting, I'm repeating the important part } >> >> henk> 2.) go to ACE and ask for an "unsigned token" option, >> or >> >> Jim Schaad wrote: >> jls> I don't have a problem with this, I am not sure that I see any >> jls> reason for it however. See below. >> >> henk> 3.) go to CBOR and ask for a tag for "naked" CWT Claim Sets (i.e., >> henk> that are not signed). >> >> jls> I don't see any difference between this and option #2 >> >> jls> 4.) Just write your CWT code in a sensible manner. >> >> jls> My CWT code base does not make any assumptions about the number or >> jls> order of COSE security wrapping layers on a token. It thus looks >> jls> like >> >> jls> while (true) { >> jls> if input has a COSE_Encrypt tag { decrypt it; set input to the content; save the encryption information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue; } >> jls> if input has a COSE_MAC tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the MAC information if needed e.g. shared key authentication; continue;} >> jls> if input has a COSE_Signature tag { validate it; set input to the content; save the signer information; continue } >> jls> if input is a map - return input as the set of claims; >> jls> throw an exception because it is not the correct format. >> jls> } >> >> jls> This does not require a tag for a naked set of claims and would >> jls> allow that set of claims to be pass in the same place as a CWT can >> jls> be passed. What you are suggesting would require extra code to >> jls> exist someplace that is going to check for an additional tag. >> >> jls> IT IS >> jls> ALSO GOING TO LEAD TO PEOPLE THINKING THAT THIS NEW TAG SHOULD BE >> jls> LEGAL TO PLACE INSIDE OF A CWT. After all it makes more sense to >> jls> always include it than to just sometimes include it. >> >> Emphasis mine. >> So your suggestion is to do nothing. >> I also wondered why that wouldn't work, but I hadn't written enough code to >> ask the question intelligently. >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ace mailing list >> Ace@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >> > From nobody Fri Mar 6 16:17:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC793A0E38 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 16:17:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N94F_q_5i9X4 for ; 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Fri, 6 Mar 2020 16:17:31 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIADktqA//+RoAA= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:17:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> In-Reply-To: <19724.1583535153@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.254.184.168] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <05E65AA4B056674CB03BFE63E2A92ABB@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 00:17:34 -0000 Tm1zPiBzZWUgaW5saW5lDQoNCu+7v09uIDMvNi8yMCwgMjo1MiBQTSwgIlJBVFMgb24gYmVoYWxm IG9mIE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbiIgPHJhdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYg b2YgbWNyK2lldGZAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIA0KICAgIExhdXJlbmNlIEx1 bmRibGFkZSA8bGdsQGlzbGFuZC1yZXNvcnQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCiAgICAgICAgPiBGb3IgdGhl IHNha2Ugb2YgSW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSwgdGhlIEpXVCBmb3JtYXQgaXMgc3Ryb25nbHkgcHJl ZmVycmVkDQogICAgICAgID4gZm9yIGF0dGVzdGF0aW9uIHJlc3VsdHMuIElmIHRoZSBWZXJpZmll ciBpcyBwYXNzaW5nIG9uIGFueSBjbGFpbXMgZnJvbQ0KICAgICAgICA+IEF0dGVzdGF0aW9uIEV2 aWRlbmNlLCB0aGVuIGl0IHNob3VsZCBjb252ZXJ0IHRoZW0gdG8gSldUIGZvcm1hdC4NCiAgICAN CiAgICAgICAgPiBTaW1pbGFybHksIGZvciB0aGUgc2FrZSBvZiBJbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LCB0 aGUgQ1dUIGFuZCBKV1RzIGZvcm1hdHMNCiAgICAgICAgPiBhcmUgcHJlZmVycmVkIGZvciBBdHRl c3RhdGlvbiBFdmlkZW5jZSwgdGhvdWdoIGl0IGlzIHVuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhhdCBpbg0KICAgICAg ICA+IG1hbnkgdXNlIGNhc2VzIG90aGVyIGV4dGFudCBzZXJpYWxpemF0aW9uIGZvcm1hdHMgd2ls bCBoYXZlIHRvIGJlDQogICAgICAgID4gdXNlZC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgdGhv c2UgYXJlIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgdGhpbmdzIHRvIHN0YXRlLg0KICAgIEkgd291bGQgZXZlbiBnbyB0 byBDV1Qtb25seSBmb3IgRXZpZGVuY2UsIGJ1dCB0aGF0J3MgbWUuDQogICAgKEkgZ3Vlc3MgaW4g dGhlIGJhY2tncm91bmQtY2hlY2sgZmxvdywgSldUIG1ha2VzIGxpZmUgc29tZXdoYXQgZWFzaWVy KQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIFRoZSBrZXkgdGhpbmcgdG8gcmVhbGl6ZSBpcyB0aGF0IGEgZ2l2ZW4gQXR0 ZXN0ZXIgd2lsbCBzcGVhayBvbmx5IG9uZSBmb3JtYXQsDQogICAgbGlrZWx5IGRldGVybWluZWQg KGJ5IGZpYXQpIGJ5IHRoZSBkZXNpZ25lciBvZiB0aGUgQXR0ZXN0ZXIuDQpObXM+IEluIG1hbnkg Y2FzZXMsIGRldmljZSB2ZW5kb3JzIGFyZSBlbWJlZGRpbmcga2V5cyBhdCBtYW51ZmFjdHVyaW5n IHRpbWUuIFRoZXNlIGtleXMgYXJlIG9mdGVuIGNlcnRpZmllZCB1c2luZyBYLjUwOSBQS0kuIFRo YXQgbWVhbnMgdGhlIEF0dGVzdGVyIGRlc2lnbmVyIGFscmVhZHkgaGFzIGRldGVybWluZWQgc29t ZSBtaW5pbWFsIHN1cHBvcnQgb2YgQkVSIGlzIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBCT00gY29zdC4gVGhl IFNVSVQgV0cgY29uY2x1ZGVkIHRoYXQgZm9yIElvVCB1cGRhdGVzIHRoZSBkZXZpY2UgYm9tIGFs cmVhZHkgaW5jbHVkZXMgc29tZSBDQk9SLiBJZiB0aGUgZ29hbCBpcyB0byBuYXJyb3cgb24gYSBz aG9ydCBsaXN0IG9mIGVuY29kaW5nIGZvcm1hdHMsIEJFUiBhbmQgQ0JPUiBhcmUgYXQgdGhlIHRv cCBvZiB0aGUgbGlzdCAoYXQgbGVhc3QgZm9yIElvVCBkZXZpY2VzKS4gUENzIGFuZCBTZXJ2ZXJz IHN0aWxsIGRvbid0IGVtYnJhY2UgU1VJVCBtYW5pZmVzdCAvIFNXIHVwZGF0ZSBwYWNrYWdlIGZv cm1hdCBBRkFJSy4NCiAgICANCiAgICBBIGdpdmVuIFZlcmlmaWVyL1JlbHlpbmcgUGFydHkgaW50 ZXJhY3Rpb24gd2lsbCBzcGVhayBvbmx5IG9uZSBmb3JtYXQuDQogICAgV2hldGhlciBpdCBpcyB0 aGUgVmVyaWZpZXIgb3IgdGhlIFJlbHlpbmcgUGFydHkgZ2V0cyB0byBzcGVjaWZ5IHRoZSBmb3Jt YXQgaXMNCiAgICBwcm9iYWJseSBnb2luZyB0byBiZSBkZXRlcm1pbmVkIGJ5IE1hcmtldCBDYXBp dGFsaXphdGlvbiByYXRoZXIgdGhhbg0KICAgIHRlY2huaWNhbCBtZXJpdHMuDQogICAgQnV0LCB0 byB0aGUgZXh0ZW50IHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bCBpbiBwcm9tb3Rp bmcNCiAgICBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LCBpdCBoYXMgb2Z0ZW4gYmVlbiB0byBjb25zdHJhaW4g dGhlIHRyYW5zbGF0aW9uIGZyb20NCiAgICB1bi1jb29wZXJhdGl2ZSAiU0RPInMgc3BlY2lmaWNh dGlvbnMgdG8gb25lcyB0aGF0IHdlIGNvbnRyb2wuDQogICAge0kgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCdzIGFzIG5p Y2UgYXMgSSBjYW4gYmV9DQogICAgDQogICAgU28gdGhlIGxpZmUgb2YgdGhlIFZlcmlmaWVyIHdp bGwgYmUgZGlmZmljdWx0LCBhcyB3YXMgdGhlIGxpZmUgb2YgdGhlDQogICAgTG90dXNOb3Rlcy9T TVRQIGdhdGV3YXkgYW5kIHRoZSBYLjUwMChFQU4hKS9TTVRQIGdhdGV3YXkuICBCdXQsIG9ic2Vy dmUgd2hhdA0KICAgIGhhcHBlbmVkIHRoZXJlOiBTTVRQIHdvbiwgYW5kIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgaXMg bW9zdGx5IFNNVFAsIGV4Y2VwdCB3aGVuIGl0J3MgalNNVFAuDQogICAgDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Mar 6 18:27:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13393A101F for ; 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charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 18:27:29 -0800 Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" , Jim Schaad , "cbor@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz , Ace Wg Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F7E9A70-18BE-454C-A5EB-F07A1EDFE7DC@island-resort.com> References: <00d501d5f26d$c34454d0$49ccfe70$@augustcellars.com> <12861.1583448208@localhost> <51BE3C8D-6AC9-424F-8600-57ADCAF9CEF5@intel.com> <017f01d5f35d$2c422c60$84c68520$@augustcellars.com> <01ae01d5f3eb$4a670fb0$df352f10$@augustcellars.com> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKy83zi+U5PeWqH/6RsblKgIr+ls7hN0mEo4T4qN+7KucD5QTKfkz8wzeTB/1wjiLTTpMDMo7ZAKCwBPV0LFapn9al7Gw4ozo+uev7Om5w3H3yD3OJI2 tyLRlnG62UAs3Za/4MAytNfPR5DSwCN6J1Nq2l6sE/kPavSDpu/N1wyVMrK1kWtmedzH/Me0lTJDSV8NsHdH2DG730IgVAg18J//yW+CeaLXRM5b5Xg++CVD FBe0pr79TwRTzaiMGiBHU+iGjR1miEP1XKq3deq+lf8XtdxzQESLlCwIdcbJ+6Si7ghzTtkhL2UVh09jCpwTQ+xG9WdsbBH9mm8hJs5nGnU= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Ace] [Cbor] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT? X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 02:27:41 -0000 Pretty sure UCCS as Carsten describes below works for me provided: - All the rules and requirements from CWT explicilty apply except = signing/encryption - It uses the same registry - There is a tag defined for it - You get an (untagged) UCCS when you remove all signing and encryption = layers LL > On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Hi Ned, >=20 > What I was trying to say is that the Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) = is not a CWT, but an UCCS. So I wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token (which = implies some form of protection to me). But it is still a useful data = structure to carry around. >=20 >> On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned wrote: >>=20 >> The earlier thread suggested that a naked token could be given to a = parser that was programmed correctly and it would 'just work'. But if = the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must have bounding signature, = mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser should reject naked tokens = (tagged as such or not).=20 >=20 > A CWT decoder would diagnose an UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D. > A CWT/UCCS decoder would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D. >=20 >> If the naked token is defined and the map has a tag that indicates it = was formed without secure enveloping then the parser should accept it, = but the code using the parser needs to find some other way to ensure = security.=20 >=20 > Right. An UCCS is only a useful assertion if received over a secure = channel with the right properties to make it a useful assertion. >=20 >> If a parser receives a map with both security enveloping and the = naked token tag, then it should return both the map and the security = envelope context and let the code using the parser decide if the = security context satisfies the security requirement. >=20 > Well, it should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not = an UCCS either). >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Sat Mar 7 09:19:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8713A167E for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EAantuMDz0cx for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A8083A167B for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Ad6TjJHsSo8izAd6Tjs2VQ; Sat, 07 Mar 2020 10:19:09 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Bb6mLYl2 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=F9tmZwAnVFaTAznBdUQA:9 a=WrU2Fa-GijvTjPyX:21 a=M8KymC_esDIYeLhY:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=fLrUvEAaaEW80W6X:21 a=IjeWl-L6My_xZPJP:21 a=90j0Of7dcHRRNiJD:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D9222CC0-B6AD-4EEA-A62F-D1EC0CF2D615" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:19:09 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEtzLYPt7IPUpQtVJXqE0NVRKoiBWKfCdfXZuJyeqrzMtzlh0ULOUWfquvThOOZENCDQprxDy4x1zXxPlAM85UqclIP0I6M2GwCp4RG6Hv/JZLb2xTBG UMO75rKlI1TJ/qgtBq7gjgAmDxOdN/fpXTSfQRzaUflvL6lpJYfwxLZVr6poUVjU1MM2WbpZ3TKXJdL5OJ8dA13ubf+Doy3uvXBmddATPMddBY+qmdt4Hht2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 17:19:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D9222CC0-B6AD-4EEA-A62F-D1EC0CF2D615 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 6, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Nms> In many cases, device vendors are embedding keys at manufacturing = time. These keys are often certified using X.509 PKI. That means the = Attester designer already has determined some minimal support of BER is = included in the BOM cost. The SUIT WG concluded that for IoT updates the = device bom already includes some CBOR. If the goal is to narrow on a = short list of encoding formats, BER and CBOR are at the top of the list = (at least for IoT devices). PCs and Servers still don't embrace SUIT = manifest / SW update package format AFAIK. Here=E2=80=99s how I=E2=80=99d expect a lot of the X.509 PKI=E2=80=99s = to work. 0) A root cert (a form / part of endorsement) is generated by the = manufacturer / endorser and is given to the verifier. 1) The manufacturer puts the private part of a key pair into the = attester. It can be in any format including some raw format or some BER = encoded format or even COSE format. It will just be used to sign = evidence, so the best is probably some raw format. For ECDSA, best is = probably just a 256-bit number. 2) The manufacturer puts one or more X.509 certs into the attester = including one with the corresponding public key. 3) The attester signs evidence with the private key 4) The attester bundles the X.509 certs into the COSE headers. See = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-05 5) The verifier walks the cert chain from the COSE headers up to the = root=20 Net-net, the attester copies X.509 certs around, but never looks inside = so no BER code is needed.=20 LL= --Apple-Mail=_D9222CC0-B6AD-4EEA-A62F-D1EC0CF2D615 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Mar 6, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

Nms> In many cases, device = vendors are embedding keys at manufacturing time. These keys are often = certified using X.509 PKI. That means the Attester designer already has = determined some minimal support of BER is included in the BOM cost. The = SUIT WG concluded that for IoT updates the device bom already includes = some CBOR. If the goal is to narrow on a short list of encoding formats, = BER and CBOR are at the top of the list (at least for IoT devices). PCs = and Servers still don't embrace SUIT manifest / SW update package format = AFAIK.

Here=E2=80=99s how I=E2=80=99d expect a = lot of the X.509 PKI=E2=80=99s to work.

0) A root cert (a form / part = of endorsement) is generated by the manufacturer / endorser and is given = to the verifier.

1) The manufacturer puts the private part of a key pair into = the attester. It can be in any format including some raw format or some = BER encoded format or even COSE format. It will just be used to sign = evidence, so the best is probably some raw format. For ECDSA, best is = probably just a 256-bit number.

2) The manufacturer puts one or more = X.509 certs into the attester including one with the corresponding = public key.

3) = The attester signs evidence  with the private key

4) The attester bundles = the X.509 certs into the COSE headers. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-05

5) The verifier walks = the cert chain from the COSE headers up to the root 

Net-net, the attester = copies X.509 certs around, but never looks inside so no BER code is = needed. 

LL
= --Apple-Mail=_D9222CC0-B6AD-4EEA-A62F-D1EC0CF2D615-- From nobody Sat Mar 7 12:15:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17C73A1971 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:15:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pN2_KSdFpT0o for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-10.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78C873A196E for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Afqoj036cZiSwAfqojbgwc; Sat, 07 Mar 2020 13:15:11 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JbHCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=svcJPHz6iq2bPnjMoKoA:9 a=Nn-9Qfj5eWObMcJK:21 a=QVIqMwnU4_CA17C3:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10 a=dhX-o35yVGq-3-ipUH4A:9 a=5iNu4uQjWu6BGAGk:21 a=moEA4oEBHrEr2nWd:21 a=ffzMInUF_wZPq4NO:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <5ADF64A8-501C-4C98-87FE-C6BE081ADF14@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9A8B4291-4A08-4BCF-B896-2416F4F76C22" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:15:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <591F0481-CA43-48DD-A92A-79F5AAC2AFC3@intel.com> Cc: Thomas Fossati , Kathleen Moriarty , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <027C9BEF-A8CD-457D-8E51-405276009F78@intel.com> <591F0481-CA43-48DD-A92A-79F5AAC2AFC3@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfLKZw6LoxzswsTt9mJ1eEdUPO6pGulHdeqAm4PegC/fv80nsPTZQY7fUXIEfL0NCznwwNZPRHQ7bdVV2bjMIPuFfeQwtFNnITFDDhcsbvvfe8vHgu9hJ eImHcrxuXWxLl4Wo3vm6UfJvLpYILQHWWhFG6Usi/Tlo8hPBQVOQKvTzxCx1p7VdULDpFdt75xEA4NOgvvBOtg90YFkRfZL/IlMcx7frXwIEmh2rI8laY1pe 13UkQKo0P/8IbNdaBPhRfTtVJzZ7YEMc+icrm6lJ6R4= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 20:15:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9A8B4291-4A08-4BCF-B896-2416F4F76C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My approach for EAT is that claims are defined / described in CDDL with = accompanying explanatory text. There will also be clear and complete = instructions on how to encode them in CBOR and JSON. The EAT document = will go no further than that. If someone wants to create a separate document that maps the EAT CDDL = into ASN.1 that=E2=80=99s fine. Maybe it is for just a few claims, maybe = it is a methodology that will work for every claim in the IANA CWT = registry. If someone wants to suggest tweaks to the EAT CDDL to make it easier to = encode in ASN.1, that is OK, but only tweaks. If someone wants to create a separate document that maps claims into = Yang that is OK, but this will not be a token format because YANG is not = good for that or used that way. If someone wants to suggest tweaks to the EAT CDDL to make it easier to = encode in Yang, that is OK, but only tweaks. If someone wants to wrap claims sets in CMS, that is fine, but not as a = preferred format.=20 If someone wants to create a separate document that maps EAT CDDL into = XML, that=E2=80=99s fine=E2=80=A6 Same comments as for ASN.1=E2=80=A6=20 =E2=80=A6 Also, I believe the crypto and key management infrastructure for EAT is = just like with CWT =E2=80=94 whatever COSE / JOSE provides. For specific = use cases / sub industries and such, there will be profiles narrowing = the crypto, describing key management and such. Most of it just goes = into COSE / JOSE headers. LL > On Mar 6, 2020, at 11:47 AM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 5:46 AM, "Thomas Fossati" > wrote: >=20 > On 04/03/2020, 22:53, "Smith, Ned" wrote: >> Nms> A guiding principle is that market forces often decide which >> formats become winners. The architecture hopes market forces will >> value interoperability (Metcalf's law >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law) but in the meantime, = the >> architecture assumes Verifier and Relying Party will have to deal = with >> the complexity of multiple formats. The other constraint is the >> architecture expects messages produced by RATS roles can (must?) be >> digest-able, sign-able / encrypt-able. This rules out some markup >> languages. >>=20 >> The Attester, Verifier and Endorser are the roles that create = messages >> and therefore make the decision which encoding to use. The >> architecture can (a) create a short list (b) define criteria for >> making a good choice or (c) expect a negotiation. Given (a) and the >> language of the Internet moves away from what is on the list then the >> advice in the architecture is counter-productive IMO. Given (b) there >> is still a lot of leeway for non-convergence. Given (c) negotiation >> protocol is an additional barrier to attestation adoption. >>=20 >> If the SAAG were to endorse (a) then that would send a message to all >> IETF WGs that there is a need to encourage convergence. In other = words >> the language of the Internet will converge because everyone at the >> IETF agrees to drive convergence. >=20 > Thanks Ned. One question: within the RATS scope, i.e., for specs > produced by this working group, do we envisage encodings other than > [JC]WT? If so, which one? > Nms> The RATS architecture considers interoperability challenges given = existing installed base of trusted entities (e.g. TPM, TEEs - such as = Intel SGX and ARM TrustZone, and any environment that can digest, mac, = sign or encrypt; but may not be thought of as a 'root of trust'). A RATS = Verifier and Relying Party might encounter these other secure data = encoding formats.=20 >=20 > The IETF is responsible for defining some of these other formats:=20 > - CMS (BER) - RFC5652 > - X.509 (BER) - RFC5280, RFC5755 > - Signed XML - RFC3275 > - COSE, JOSE - RFC8152, RFC7515 > - YANG - = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-13 = > - NEA PA-TNC - RFC5792 > - others? >=20 > Additionally, IETF defined protocol header formats and payload formats = can be thought of as 'secure data encoding formats'.=20 >=20 > RATS Verifiers and Relying Parties potentially need to interface with = any / all of the above encoding formats to extract 'claims' information.=20= >=20 > A concrete example involving both X.509 and COSE for RATS is the case = where a device obtains an embedded key pair by its manufacturer who = issues an X.509 certificate. The mfg includes attestation Evidence = claims in the X.509 certificate. The key is used to sign a CWT EAT = token. The Verifier must parse claims found in both the token and in the = certificate.=20 >=20 > Other anticipated cases involve using unsigned CWT EAT tokens because = the signing key (aka attestation key) is used to sign a protocol data = unit or frame containing the unsigned token / claims. It goes without = saying that other standards bodies define protocols that involve 'secure = data encoding formats'.=20 >=20 > It might be impossible to expect convergence of protocols but it seems = (more?) realistic that unsigned token / claims formats, as payload = objects, could converge.=20 >=20 > A RATS Verifier / RP could anticipate appraisals, that operate on the = unsigned claims maps, use common encoding such as CBOR. The RATS = Verifier / RP code that deals with verification of digital signatures, = encryption, digests etc., might need to be more tolerant of the above = variety of encodings.=20 >=20 > An example of how IETF could drive convergence of secure protocols is = OSCORE; where the security in CoAPs and HTTPs are transferred to OSCORE; = which specifies COSE encodings rather than TLS/DTLS specific = frame/packet encodings.=20 >=20 > Convergence at the DDL layer is also challenging because PKI is X.509 = / BER centric and there aren't any widely deployed alternatives AFAIK. = The IETF would need to propose an alternative to RFC5280 and RFC5755 = that is CBOR / COSE based. Possibly the ACE WG believes CWT is doing = that somehow, but CWT is closer to a CBOR realization of CMS than of = X.509 IMHO. The ACE WG seems to put JOSE/JWT on the same level of = importance as COSE/CWT which doesn't seem to drive convergence. OSCORE, = for example, doesn't support JOSE AFAIK. >=20 > Bringing this back full circle. RATS WG charter focus is first on CWT = and JWT encodings (and we're pushing for a naked version of CWT/JWT as = we speak). But really the focus is more on the claims semantics and RATS = drafts try to use CDDL or YANG for that. Specifying JWT/CWT essentially = *adds* to Verifier / RP complexity because existing formats (e.g., = X.509, binary) cannot be ignored due to the installed base of = trustworthy computing technology. One could reasonably ask why RATS = allows both JWT and CWT. Why not pick just one? It may be fair to = position that RATS WG is hopeful that industry will tolerate an increase = in encoding format complexity as an avenue toward later consolidations? = But the IETF must itself be convinced of this and take all reasonable = steps to build a path to convergence by updating RFCs that existentially = advocate for non-convergence. >=20 > -Ned >=20 > cheers, t > -- >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments = are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_9A8B4291-4A08-4BCF-B896-2416F4F76C22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
My approach for EAT is that claims are defined / described in = CDDL with accompanying explanatory text. There will also be clear and = complete instructions on how to encode them in CBOR and JSON.  The = EAT document will go no further than that.

If someone wants to create a separate = document that maps the EAT CDDL into ASN.1 that=E2=80=99s fine. Maybe it = is for just a few claims, maybe it is a methodology that will work for = every claim in the IANA CWT registry.

If someone wants to suggest tweaks to = the EAT CDDL to make it easier to encode in ASN.1, that is OK, but only = tweaks.

If = someone wants to create a separate document that maps claims into Yang = that is OK, but this will not be a token format because YANG is not good = for that or used that way.

If someone wants to suggest tweaks to the EAT = CDDL to make it easier to encode in Yang, that is OK, but only = tweaks.

If= someone wants to wrap claims sets in CMS, that is fine, but not as a = preferred format. 

If someone wants to create a separate document that maps EAT = CDDL into XML, that=E2=80=99s fine=E2=80=A6 Same comments as for = ASN.1=E2=80=A6 

=E2=80=A6


Also, I believe the = crypto and key management infrastructure for EAT is just like with CWT = =E2=80=94 whatever COSE / JOSE provides. For specific use cases / sub = industries and such, there will be profiles narrowing the crypto, = describing key management and such. Most of it just goes into COSE / = JOSE headers.

LL





On Mar 6, 2020, at 11:47 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:



=EF=BB=BFOn 3/5/20, 5:46 AM, = "Thomas Fossati" <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote:

   On 04/03/2020, 22:53, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:
Nms>= A guiding principle is that market forces often decide which
formats become winners. The architecture hopes market forces = will
value interoperability (Metcalf's law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law) but in the = meantime, the
architecture assumes Verifier and Relying = Party will have to deal with
the complexity of multiple = formats. The other constraint is the
architecture expects = messages produced by RATS roles can (must?) be
digest-able, = sign-able / encrypt-able. This rules out some markup
languages.

The Attester, = Verifier and Endorser are the roles that create messages
and= therefore make the decision which encoding to use. The
architecture can (a) create a short list (b) define criteria = for
making a good choice or (c) expect a negotiation. = Given (a) and the
language of the Internet moves away from = what is on the list then the
advice in the architecture is = counter-productive IMO. Given (b) there
is still a lot of = leeway for non-convergence. Given (c) negotiation
protocol = is an additional barrier to attestation adoption.

If the SAAG were to endorse (a) then that would send a = message to all
IETF WGs that there is a need to encourage = convergence. In other words
the language of the Internet = will converge because everyone at the
IETF agrees to drive = convergence.

   Thanks Ned.  One question: within the = RATS scope, i.e., for specs
   produced by this working group, do we = envisage encodings other than
   [JC]WT?  If so, which one?
Nms> The RATS architecture = considers interoperability challenges given existing installed base of = trusted entities (e.g. TPM, TEEs - such as Intel SGX and ARM TrustZone, = and any environment that can digest, mac, sign or encrypt; but may not = be thought of as a 'root of trust'). A RATS Verifier and Relying Party = might encounter these other secure data encoding formats. 

The IETF is responsible for = defining some of these other formats: 
- CMS (BER) - = RFC5652
- X.509 (BER) - RFC5280, RFC5755
- Signed XML = - RFC3275
- COSE, JOSE - RFC8152, RFC7515
= - YANG - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-13<= /a>
- NEA PA-TNC - RFC5792
= - = others?

Additionally, = IETF defined protocol header formats and payload formats can be thought = of as 'secure data encoding formats'. 

RATS Verifiers and Relying = Parties potentially need to interface with any / all of the above = encoding formats to extract 'claims' information. 

A concrete example involving = both X.509 and COSE for RATS is the case where a device obtains an = embedded key pair by its manufacturer who issues an X.509 certificate. = The mfg includes attestation Evidence claims in the X.509 certificate. = The key is used to sign a CWT EAT token. The Verifier must parse claims = found in both the token and in the certificate. 

Other anticipated cases involve = using unsigned CWT EAT tokens because the signing key (aka attestation = key) is used to sign a protocol data unit or frame containing the = unsigned token / claims. It goes without saying that other standards = bodies define protocols that involve 'secure data encoding = formats'. 

It might be impossible to expect = convergence of protocols but it seems (more?) realistic that unsigned = token / claims formats, as payload objects, could converge. 

A RATS Verifier / RP could = anticipate appraisals, that operate on the unsigned claims maps, use = common encoding such as CBOR. The RATS Verifier / RP code that deals = with verification of digital signatures, encryption, digests etc., might = need to be more tolerant of the above variety of encodings. 

An example of how IETF could = drive convergence of secure protocols is OSCORE; where the security in = CoAPs and HTTPs are transferred to OSCORE; which specifies COSE = encodings rather than TLS/DTLS specific frame/packet encodings. 

Convergence at the DDL layer is = also challenging because PKI is X.509 / BER centric and there aren't any = widely deployed alternatives AFAIK. The IETF would need to propose an = alternative to RFC5280 and RFC5755 that is CBOR / COSE based. Possibly = the ACE WG believes CWT is doing that somehow, but CWT is closer to a = CBOR realization of CMS than of X.509 IMHO. The ACE WG seems to put = JOSE/JWT on the same level of importance as COSE/CWT which doesn't seem = to drive convergence. OSCORE, for example, doesn't support JOSE = AFAIK.

Bringing this = back full circle. RATS WG charter focus is first on CWT and JWT = encodings (and we're pushing for a naked version of CWT/JWT as we = speak). But really the focus is more on the claims semantics and RATS = drafts try to use CDDL or YANG for that. Specifying JWT/CWT essentially = *adds* to Verifier / RP complexity because existing formats (e.g., = X.509, binary) cannot be ignored due to the installed base of = trustworthy computing technology. One could reasonably ask why RATS = allows both JWT and CWT. Why not pick just one? It may be fair to = position that RATS WG is hopeful that industry will tolerate an increase = in encoding format complexity as an avenue toward later consolidations? = But the IETF must itself be convinced of this and take all reasonable = steps to build a path to convergence by updating RFCs that existentially = advocate for non-convergence.

-Ned

   cheers, t
   --

   IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this = email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. = If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender = immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it = for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank = you.


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

= --Apple-Mail=_9A8B4291-4A08-4BCF-B896-2416F4F76C22-- From nobody Sat Mar 7 13:21:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8B33A1A9B for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6R2DhJUL5oGG for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8903A3A1A99 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8394E3897D for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8DA733 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:21:27 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 21:21:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: mcr> The key thing to realize is that a given Attester will speak only one format, mcr> likely determined (by fiat) by the designer of the Attester. Nms> In many cases, device vendors are embedding keys at manufacturing Nms> time. These keys are often certified using X.509 PKI. That means the Nms> Attester designer already has determined some minimal support of BER Nms> is included in the BOM cost. The SUIT WG concluded that for IoT Nms> updates the device bom already includes some CBOR. If the goal is to Nms> narrow on a short list of encoding formats, BER and CBOR are at the Nms> top of the list (at least for IoT devices). Just because the certificate is BER encoded doesn't mean that an entity using the private key to create a signed artifact has to have any ASN.1/PKIX code to do the signing. Validaing the connection to the verifier might require certificate chain validation, or it could be designed around an embedded RPK, or CoID. What I'm trying to say is that CBOR is really the only part that we can be sure is in the BOM cost. Nms> PCs and Servers still Nms> don't embrace SUIT manifest / SW update package format AFAIK. It's true, and SUIT has made them out of scope. But, BMCs will adopt SUIT quickly, I think. The rest of the server upgrade path is leverages the secure (attested) connection to the BMC. As for PCs... increasingly irrelevant outside of technical creators from what I can see :-) -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5kEFYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUxyAf/QJGVSFeENtbSjAwn9XlSPrJC0i3ECX1u2ZDC919vfjDPeQqB6Nc7TIsT MLuqnkprco5seb6wrDEx9I/uXqiMnMxdrGwEwu/7zyL93Xwwp0ub/0fJ/QlGCM0J +SIyWPXQp+YDN5Lp15Ju6UVSSFKni6ddddeeg/hS+Ju42DsLkdmsJJevVLxvjqPP Zzw7FXv0HX6BrWqWPrh+hA/GQPwjoeAXOlVs9i1cuEeTbvC7yGqpoWE+H1KV4bIi /d2huW43u5VgZtHUFm7uBFlvqxPD35W/JpavM7sJbeZN88ne05zM03S8gOnTWq/g BMp4+XjUiaQppDjdRXOeFLXZ5btU0g== =xv1A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Mar 7 13:24:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D0E3A1AA8 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oos9p5XCB5T for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5D563A1AA5 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5983897D; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C542733; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:24:47 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Laurence Lundblade cc: "Smith\, Ned" , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 21:24:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laurence Lundblade wrote: > Here=E2=80=99s how I=E2=80=99d expect a lot of the X.509 PKI=E2=80=99= s to work. > 0) A root cert (a form / part of endorsement) is generated by the man= ufacturer / endorser and is given to the verifier. > 1) The manufacturer puts the private part of a key pair into the atte= ster. It can be in any format including some raw format or some BER encoded= format or even COSE format. It will just be used to sign evidence, so the = best is probably some raw format. For ECDSA, best is probably just a 256-bi= t number. > 2) The manufacturer puts one or more X.509 certs into the attester in= cluding one with the corresponding public key. > 3) The attester signs evidence with the private key > 4) The attester bundles the X.509 certs into the COSE headers. See > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-05 In draft-selander-ace-ake-authz we are looking at a way to pass the key by reference rather than value, since bytes really count. > 5) The verifier walks the cert chain from the COSE headers up to the = root > Net-net, the attester copies X.509 certs around, but never looks insi= de > so no BER code is needed. We are in complete agreement. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5kER8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW6pwgAlsUb0dOgYbpyUw6Q1AAbI/ElrJILOG/q+WoO2qAoKcTjl4padd4px761 9hva3vG+PFYiSHQ3EUTzs0JzJT4ZyefkJdofaZogc1K6iBxhLj3QfkaHiqYaOc68 G5b2ixIP/9etVjTf33zaZ0zTyvGZO2jqoDCRvRLOlJ8A4e/kNIIJ0hGZ+Y9v6iNp SicDwqAFeOOZDlUXoiqkn5T8wOcfPd3eBbsCzRNpNoCedC5W/2pCpYhBpNommUOV oFYhL1/TNanpbQH2ladvEGDqdUreDG7ZExz1uWYFSTd4vWzD7+hJnuhCzowm+IkG SwvI17qxB6HAXdt004KKSaKBK3JziA== =3vQY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Mar 7 13:29:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC40B3A1AB7 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sat, 07 Mar 2020 21:29:01 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 027LK3Nl009281; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:29:00 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2ym7ty0dwm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 07 Mar 2020 16:28:59 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:28:59 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:28:59 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQbSMdxITt+XkOv0YwhYl3Q6Kg3oqMAgAAJKACAAUXcAIADktqAgAAXvACAAWElgP//rkgA Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:28:59 +0000 Message-ID: <45666B09-5DBF-4B3A-89EA-CE854A0FBC64@akamai.com> References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> <11554.1583616087@localhost> In-Reply-To: <11554.1583616087@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20022603 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.114.103] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <023BAF6E431FF7438DD55DBD67AE44A4@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-03-07_07:2020-03-06, 2020-03-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=755 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002050000 definitions=main-2003070158 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-03-07_07:2020-03-06, 2020-03-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=734 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2003070158 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 21:29:05 -0000 Tml0OiBERVIsIG5vdCBCRVIuDQogDQoNCg== From nobody Sat Mar 7 15:28:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD5C3A0D4B; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: <158362372863.18120.2591685250957535177@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 15:28:48 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 23:28:49 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF. Title : Remote Attestation Procedures Architecture Authors : Henk Birkholz Dave Thaler Michael Richardson Ned Smith Wei Pan Filename : draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2020-03-07 Abstract: In network protocol exchanges, it is often the case that one entity (a Relying Party) requires evidence about a remote peer to assess the peer's trustworthiness, and a way to appraise such evidence. The evidence is typically a set of claims about its software and hardware platform. This document describes an architecture for such remote attestation procedures (RATS). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-architecture/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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11:47:34 +0000 From: Thomas Fossati To: Laurence Lundblade , "Smith, Ned" CC: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , Thomas Fossati Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQcQnWKSVeXKkKd+yU/xoNEQag3TtEAgAAJKACAAUXcAIADktqAgAAXvQCAAR1ygIABNbAA Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 11:47:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Thomas.Fossati@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [82.11.185.80] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: e67d3689-25ee-440d-23bb-08d7c356831c X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6PR08MB3847:|AM6PR08MB3847:|AM6PR08MB4737: 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[Rats] New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 13:40:03 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0B71_01D5F5F6.AEA2EA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Updates based on the questions on & off list. -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, March 9, 2020 9:32 AM To: Eric Voit (evoit) Subject: New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Eric Voit and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing Revision: 01 Title: Trusted Path Routing using Remote Attestation Document date: 2020-03-09 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 28 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01 Abstract: There are end-users who believe encryption technologies like IPSec alone are insufficient to protect the confidentiality of their highly sensitive traffic flows. This specification describes two alternatives for protecting these sensitive flows as they transit a network. In both alternatives, protection is accomplished by forwarding sensitive flows across network devices currently appraised as trustworthy. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AMJQOgWW4J9O for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga14.intel.com (mga14.intel.com [192.55.52.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6B13A09FB for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga005.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.32]) by fmsmga103.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Mar 2020 17:23:32 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,535,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="441105652" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by fmsmga005.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 09 Mar 2020 17:23:32 -0700 Received: from orsmsx125.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.125) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:23:32 -0700 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX125.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.208]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:23:32 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIADktqA//+RoACAAedBgIAC0WuA Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 00:23:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> <11554.1583616087@localhost> In-Reply-To: <11554.1583616087@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.255.88.101] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <66B42ACC8110744C842E2732125A0D55@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 00:23:35 -0000 TW9yZSBpbmxpbmUgTm1zPg0KDQrvu79PbiAzLzcvMjAsIDE6MjEgUE0sICJSQVRTIG9uIGJlaGFs ZiBvZiBNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24iIDxyYXRzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxm IG9mIG1jcitpZXRmQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICANCiAgICBTbWl0aCwgTmVk IDxuZWQuc21pdGhAaW50ZWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCiAgICAgICAgbWNyPiBUaGUga2V5IHRoaW5n IHRvIHJlYWxpemUgaXMgdGhhdCBhIGdpdmVuIEF0dGVzdGVyIHdpbGwgc3BlYWsgb25seSBvbmUg 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14.03.0439.000; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:43:18 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIADktqA//+RoACAAaOOgIAARKGAgALWBAA= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 00:43:18 +0000 Message-ID: <7E2FD1F6-C073-448D-90AF-ABF079D625B5@intel.com> References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> <12503.1583616287@localhost> In-Reply-To: <12503.1583616287@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.255.88.101] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8F575375BEE5F84D857194B19D337B55@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 00:43:22 -0000 Tm1zPiBpbmxpbmUNCg0K77u/T24gMy83LzIwLCAxOjI0IFBNLCAiTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29u IiA8bWNyK2lldGZAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIA0KICAgIExhdXJlbmNlIEx1 bmRibGFkZSA8bGdsQGlzbGFuZC1yZXNvcnQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCiAgICAgICAgPiBIZXJl4oCZ cyBob3cgSeKAmWQgZXhwZWN0IGEgbG90IG9mIHRoZSBYLjUwOSBQS0nigJlzIHRvIHdvcmsuDQog ICAgDQogICAgICAgID4gMCkgQSByb290IGNlcnQgKGEgZm9ybSAvIHBhcnQgb2YgZW5kb3JzZW1l bnQpIGlzIGdlbmVyYXRlZCBieSB0aGUgbWFudWZhY3R1cmVyIC8gZW5kb3JzZXIgYW5kIGlzIGdp dmVuIHRvIHRoZSB2ZXJpZmllci4NCk5tcz4gSW4gWC41MDkgZm9ybWF0Lg0KICAgIA0KICAgICAg ICA+IDEpIFRoZSBtYW51ZmFjdHVyZXIgcHV0cyB0aGUgcHJpdmF0ZSBwYXJ0IG9mIGEga2V5IHBh aXIgaW50byB0aGUgYXR0ZXN0ZXIuIEl0IGNhbiBiZSBpbiBhbnkgZm9ybWF0IGluY2x1ZGluZyBz 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pdQYAYpOt99 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCBD53A0C3A for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id BTfzja8lccbP9BTg0jK3Ep; Mon, 09 Mar 2020 18:27:20 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NcGYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=l70xHGcnAAAA:8 a=SP5Y0qffsHPAiaMoD6sA:9 a=lnjeopW2RY6Q3-6-:21 a=p3fLpT2ET_eeZgle:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10 a=ggO6iPLQ8qY7eoEQJ4EA:9 a=sa5cjVhQpksYZrIp:21 a=BVbysSAtgVl6XmP6:21 a=KZRmc5m322iFS9gi:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=JtN_ecm89k2WOvw5-HMO:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <05029CF6-BF2D-4E32-B584-D23D058C3DA9@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_26292F32-EF7D-4642-8ACB-80CB893965EB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:27:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> <11554.1583616087@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO9xGqC6KiIz+m9ktPLtMWGnfzetHPyA2j9Pw3fRetmlgUe3PcOtAdJkaIfaRwI5p7lg8OlqGq07G8C1/lWOEO/UU7GmS5NRhBsYhiISVrNbzDHDvaAl J7eNXrXbOq7YcqmRuQEfWP49UT6A2amGY0mhMMzGffZggkCjJw+8Ht6mPQ4C9Ka+Ry/gg9fMBgP+vUpDq746JooR4XDpeI8r0QKtoaX0URFGGGZeloRXpUj+ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 01:27:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_26292F32-EF7D-4642-8ACB-80CB893965EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Agreed that X.509 is going to be needed for lots of use cases in the = Verifier including ones using CBOR, but X.509 is already widely = implemented and is a solved problem (OpenSSL, mbedTLS, BouncyCastle=E2=80=A6= ). Probably a lot of secure/trusted boot implementations decode it = already.=20 Creating new ASN.1, such as an EAT token in ASN.1 format is different = thing than needing X.509. It=E2=80=99s lots of new code to write, = particularly on the decode side. So, even if it is a given that = Verifiers will have to do X.509, it will still be a jump in complexity = for the Verifier to have to handle ASN.1 for the token as well as CBOR. Also, I believe a principle mentioned before was =E2=80=9Cno new = ASN.1=E2=80=9D or a least =E2=80=9Cminimal new ASN.1" I=E2=80=99m not saying no ASN.1 tokens or RATS protocols ever, just that = we should prefer CBOR and JSON (and YANG). LL > On Mar 9, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > More inline Nms> >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/7/20, 1:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = on behalf of = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca > wrote: >=20 >=20 > Smith, Ned wrote: > mcr> The key thing to realize is that a given Attester will = speak only one format, > mcr> likely determined (by fiat) by the designer of the = Attester. >=20 > Nms> In many cases, device vendors are embedding keys at = manufacturing > Nms> time. These keys are often certified using X.509 PKI. That = means the > Nms> Attester designer already has determined some minimal = support of BER > Nms> is included in the BOM cost. The SUIT WG concluded that = for IoT > Nms> updates the device bom already includes some CBOR. If the = goal is to > Nms> narrow on a short list of encoding formats, BER and CBOR = are at the > Nms> top of the list (at least for IoT devices). >=20 > Just because the certificate is BER encoded doesn't mean that an = entity using > the private key to create a signed artifact has to have any = ASN.1/PKIX code > to do the signing. > Nms> Correct. But if the vendor decides to issue X.509 certs it is = assuming Verifiers (even constrained verifiers) will parse ASN.1 and = implement PKI.=20 > Validaing the connection to the verifier might require certificate = chain > validation, or it could be designed around an embedded RPK, or = CoID. >=20 > What I'm trying to say is that CBOR is really the only part that we = can be > sure is in the BOM cost. > Nms> A (different?) vendor in the supply chain could also decide they = don't want to incur ASN.1/BER/PKI BoM cost and therefore align on CBOR. = That vendor is assuming the Verifier will parse CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT = Manifests etc. Now the Verifier has to support both ASN.1/BER/PKI and = CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT and so forth. The various endpoint vendor(s?) are = optimizing their respective costs by transferring costs to the Verifier. = If Verifiers aren't already paying the cost then the economics break = down. In IoT the Verifier is often a constrained entity since the Sensor = (designed to be a Server) verifies Controllers (designed to be Clients).=20= >=20 > Nms> PCs and Servers still > Nms> don't embrace SUIT manifest / SW update package format = AFAIK. >=20 > It's true, and SUIT has made them out of scope. > But, BMCs will adopt SUIT quickly, I think. > Nms> That doesn't change the dynamic that vendors embed keys and = decide (assume?) the Verifier wants to see an X.509 certificate. = Verifiers still have to deal with both formats. > The rest of the server upgrade path is leverages the secure = (attested) > connection to the BMC. As for PCs... increasingly irrelevant = outside of > technical creators from what I can see :-) > Nms> This thread began with an observation that Verifier / RP was = complex and "can't RATS do something to fix it" by disallowing other = formats. It seems the suggestions focus on pushing complexity somewhere = else (instead of making it go away) and the somewhere else is the = Verifier. But increasingly, the Verifier is a constrained environment. >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software = Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_26292F32-EF7D-4642-8ACB-80CB893965EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Agreed that X.509 is going to be needed for lots of use cases = in the Verifier including ones using CBOR, but X.509 is already widely = implemented and is a solved problem (OpenSSL, mbedTLS, BouncyCastle=E2=80=A6= ). Probably a lot of secure/trusted boot implementations decode it = already. 

Creating new ASN.1, such as an EAT token in ASN.1 format is = different thing than needing X.509. It=E2=80=99s lots of new code to = write, particularly on the decode side. So, even if it is a given that = Verifiers will have to do X.509, it will still be a jump in complexity = for the Verifier to have to handle ASN.1 for the token as well as = CBOR.

Also, I = believe a principle mentioned before was =E2=80=9Cno new ASN.1=E2=80=9D = or a least =E2=80=9Cminimal new ASN.1"

I=E2=80=99m not saying no ASN.1 tokens = or RATS protocols ever, just that we should prefer CBOR and JSON (and = YANG).

LL


On Mar 9, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

More inline Nms>

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/7/20, 1:21 PM, = "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


   Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
       mcr> The key = thing to realize is that a given Attester will speak only one = format,
       mcr> likely = determined (by fiat) by the designer of the Attester.

       Nms> In many = cases, device vendors are embedding keys at manufacturing
       Nms> time. These = keys are often certified using X.509 PKI. That means the
       Nms> Attester = designer already has determined some minimal support of BER
       Nms> is included = in the BOM cost. The SUIT WG concluded that for IoT
       Nms> updates the = device bom already includes some CBOR. If the goal is to
       Nms> narrow on a = short list of encoding formats, BER and CBOR are at the
       Nms> top of the = list (at least for IoT devices).

   Just because the certificate is BER encoded = doesn't mean that an entity using
   the private key to create a signed artifact = has to have any ASN.1/PKIX code
   to do the signing.
Nms> Correct. But if the = vendor decides to issue X.509 certs it is assuming Verifiers (even = constrained verifiers) will parse ASN.1 and implement PKI. 
   Validaing the = connection to the verifier might require certificate chain
   validation, or = it could be designed around an embedded RPK, or CoID.

   What I'm = trying to say is that CBOR is really the only part that we can = be
   sure is in the BOM cost.
Nms> A (different?) vendor in = the supply chain could also decide they don't want to incur = ASN.1/BER/PKI BoM cost and therefore align on CBOR. That vendor is = assuming the Verifier will parse CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT Manifests etc. Now = the Verifier has to support both ASN.1/BER/PKI and CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT = and so forth. The various endpoint vendor(s?) are optimizing their = respective costs by transferring costs to the Verifier. If Verifiers = aren't already paying the cost then the economics break down. In IoT the = Verifier is often a constrained entity since the Sensor (designed to be = a Server) verifies Controllers (designed to be Clients). 

       Nms> PCs and = Servers still
       Nms> don't = embrace SUIT manifest / SW update package format AFAIK.

   It's true, and = SUIT has made them out of scope.
   But, BMCs will adopt SUIT quickly, I = think.
Nms> That = doesn't change the dynamic that vendors embed keys and decide (assume?) = the Verifier wants to see an X.509 certificate. Verifiers still have to = deal with both formats.
   The rest of the server upgrade path is = leverages the secure (attested)
   connection to the BMC.  As for PCs... = increasingly irrelevant outside of
   technical creators from what I can see = :-)
Nms> This = thread began with an observation that Verifier / RP was complex and = "can't RATS do something to fix it" by disallowing other formats. It = seems the suggestions focus on pushing complexity somewhere else = (instead of making it go away) and the somewhere else is the Verifier. = But increasingly, the Verifier is a constrained environment.

   --
   ] =             &n= bsp; Never tell me the odds! =             &n= bsp;   | ipv6 mesh networks [
   ] =   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =        |    IoT = architect   [
   ]     mcr@sandelman.ca =  http://www.sandelman.ca/ =        |   ruby on rails =    [





   --
   Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software = Works
    -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

= --Apple-Mail=_26292F32-EF7D-4642-8ACB-80CB893965EB-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 06:19:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ACF3A12B3 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mHSm_F4RTZ5k for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28F5C3A1269 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631E43818F; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAD9825; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:19:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Smith\, Ned" , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> <63304E99-E120-4025-A4FB-AAA326796300@island-resort.com> <19724.1583535153@localhost> <11554.1583616087@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:19:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: Nms> A (different?) vendor in the supply chain could also decide they Nms> don't want to incur ASN.1/BER/PKI BoM cost and therefore align on Nms> CBOR. That vendor is assuming the Verifier will parse Nms> CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT Manifests etc. Now the Verifier has to support Nms> both ASN.1/BER/PKI and CBOR/COSE/CWT/SUIT and so forth. The various Nms> endpoint vendor(s?) are optimizing their respective costs by Nms> transferring costs to the Verifier. If Verifiers aren't already Nms> paying the cost then the economics break down. In IoT the Verifier Nms> is often a constrained entity since the Sensor (designed to be a Nms> Server) verifies Controllers (designed to be Clients). I don't think that the sensors are Verifiers. I think that they are Relying Parties. I know at least one company (Jitsuin) that has built a system that architects it that way. > The rest of the server upgrade path is leverages the secure (attested) > connection to the BMC. As for PCs... increasingly irrelevant outside of > technical creators from what I can see :-) Nms> This thread began with an observation that Verifier / RP was complex Nms> and "can't RATS do something to fix it" by disallowing other Nms> formats. It seems the suggestions focus on pushing complexity Nms> somewhere else (instead of making it go away) and the somewhere else Nms> is the Verifier. But increasingly, the Verifier is a constrained Nms> environment. We have multiple (legacy) formats. We can either go with the worst liked legacy stuff and infect it into all new designs, or we can contain that complexity into a single component and allow the rest of the ecosystem to evolve. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5nk+gACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUnPQf7BmjR2JqYlryqqCuayl/LDFAE2jNDGBMdCbtkWmDp5lJwt3T5p1nG1eut EvlAqZpMvuMmAfyhio69HvhB2/Fb1dfv/NRiyJO01dJ2a+/xt6yw7bs12aziHLSs w0eSX9k7Mx4UfO5QBQ8Now1lOtNAR3mzvaS7wEEgPBwDxGY/xoDXR8jICqvErY0z pUBBH10cbyMO2hUuezVlAKL+SII64q6nWew5GfC8PaoIF24+O1edaDBB1DwcmDe1 otqGmfKGoMpuOT9mbEdcF7ImKdceofcPgB/IxHUKgEe/4f5jiCww84onb7FWXSxc vBmuaEMxvl93fmN5B/69cXQ8NQV3Fg== =PxMp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 12:26:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Mar 2020 12:26:26 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,538,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="236041236" Received: from orsmsx110.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.8]) by fmsmga008.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2020 12:26:26 -0700 Received: from orsmsx152.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.39) by ORSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:26:25 -0700 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX152.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:26:25 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Serialization formats for attestation results Thread-Index: AQHV8ZQaWAvU4YNcLkmb0xGgdL8Ppqg3TtEAgACPRACAAUXdAIADktqA//+RoACAAedBgIAC0WuAgAFOMID///EjgA== Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:26:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41203417-EF88-4A43-8556-2665F2A6B09F@island-resort.com> 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aba1vJQfyg9HoRBxD04gNJOwg14gUfwQzpKZtZvaTTt5TlkmD4IlTIl8zV3tJliN X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2696 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:09:26 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0175_01D5F6F6.3B412350 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0176_01D5F6F6.3B412350" ------=_NextPart_001_0176_01D5F6F6.3B412350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting RATS discussion relates to which times might be of interest. Specifically, should we define times of well-known attestation events, and relate these times to the Topology model sequence diagrams contained within Section 5 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture? I believe we should do this. It provides us the option of correlating event timings across various use cases. To help this discussion progress, below are some strawman time definitions which might be interesting to consider. Each of these times is then used further below as part of a sequence diagram which can match to a diagram from draft-ietf-rats-architecture. Strawman Time Definitions: Feel free to change/refine the definitions in the table below or add new definitions. Just please don't alter the current letter id assignment as these ids are used later in the sequence diagrams. Also note that these definitions below could related to an absolute clock time such as Coordinated Universal Time, or be defined relative to some other timestamp or timeticks counter. id name strawman definition time(a) Time of claim generation When a particular claim was created, or when any values within that claim change time(b) Time of Attester awareness When an Attester or Attester Component receives a claim time(c) Time of nonce generation When a random number not predictable to an Attester is generated time(d) Time of nonce delivery When the random number becomes known to Attester time(e) Time of Attester assembly When an Attester marshals Evidence. This Evidence typically consists of one or more sets of claims. Each set might be signed by signed by an Attester Component. Additionally some new claims might be generated as part of this assembly. time(f) Time of Verifier Receipt When a set of Evidence is received by a Verifier time(g) Time of Results When Attestation Results were generated by a Verifier time(h) Time of Results expiry When a Verifier states that a specific instance of Attestation Results should no longer be accepted time(i) Time of Results delivery When Attestation Results are pushed from a Verifier time(j) Time of passport assembly Time when Evidence that includes Attestation Results is assembled in a format digestible by a Relying Party time(k) Time of Evidence to Relying Party When an Attester pushes Evidence to a Relying Party. This evidence could potentially include a Verifier's Attestation Results. time(l) Time of Relying Party receipt When the Relying party receives Evidence from an Attester. Matching Definitions to Architecture Figures 1.Simple Passport Model. This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 4 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g) | | time(j) | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | time(k)--Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | | 2. Nonce based Composite Evidence Passport. This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce--------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c) |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d) time(e) | | time(j) | | time(k)--Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) 3. Simple Background Check Model. This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 5 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. .----------. .---------------. .----------. | Attester | | Relying Party | | Verifier | '----------' '---------------' '----------' time(a) | | time(b) | | time(e) | | time(k)---Evidence------->| | |------Evidence---------->time(f) | time(g){@time(h)} time(l)<-Attestation Result-time(i) time(h) | 4. Nonce based Background Check Model For completeness .----------. .---------------. .----------. | Attester | | Relying Party | | Verifier | '----------' '---------------' '----------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<------nonce---------time(d) | time(e) | | time(k)---Evidence------->| | |------Evidence---------->time(f) | time(g){@time(h)} time(l)<-Attestation Result-time(i) time(h) | | | Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_0176_01D5F6F6.3B412350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

An interesting RATS discussion relates to which times = might be of interest.   Specifically, should we define times = of well-known attestation events, and relate these times to the Topology = model sequence diagrams contained within Section 5 of = draft-ietf-rats-architecture? 

 

I believe we = should do this.  It provides us the option of correlating =  event timings across various use cases. To help this discussion = progress, below are some strawman time definitions which might be = interesting to consider.  Each of these times is then used further = below as part of a sequence diagram which can match to a diagram from = draft-ietf-rats-architecture.

 

 

Strawman = Time Definitions:

Feel free to = change/refine the definitions in the table below or add new = definitions.  Just please don't alter the current letter id = assignment as these ids are used later in the sequence diagrams.  = Also note that these definitions below could related to an absolute = clock time such as Coordinated Universal Time,  or be defined = relative to some other timestamp or timeticks counter.

 

id

name

strawman = definition

time(a)

 

Time of claim = generation

 

When a particular claim was = created, or when any values within that claim change

 

time(b)

Time of Attester = awareness

 

When an Attester or Attester = Component receives a claim

time(c)

Time of nonce = generation

 

When a random number not = predictable to an Attester is generated

time(d)

Time of nonce = delivery

When the random number becomes = known to Attester

time(e)

Time of Attester = assembly

When an Attester marshals = Evidence. This Evidence typically consists of one or more sets of = claims. Each set might be signed by signed by an Attester = Component.  Additionally some new claims might be generated as part = of this assembly.

time(f)

Time of Verifier = Receipt

When a set of Evidence is received = by a Verifier

time(g)

Time of = Results

When Attestation Results were = generated by a Verifier

time(h)

Time of Results = expiry

When a Verifier states that a = specific instance of Attestation Results should no longer be = accepted

time(i)

Time of Results = delivery

When Attestation Results are = pushed from a Verifier

time(j)

Time of passport = assembly

Time when Evidence that includes = Attestation Results is assembled in a format digestible by a Relying = Party

time(k)

Time of Evidence to Relying = Party

When an Attester pushes Evidence = to a Relying Party.  This evidence could potentially include a = Verifier's Attestation Results.

time(l)

Time of Relying Party = receipt

When the Relying party receives = Evidence from an Attester.

 

Matching Definitions to Architecture = Figures

 

1.Simple Passport Model. =

This figure matches to the sequence = diagram from Figure 4 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture.

 

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   = | Attester = |            =          | Verifier |  | = Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(g)           = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(j)           = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

      = time(k)--Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =    |

 

 

 

2. Nonce based Composite Evidence = Passport. 

This figure = matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   = | Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

        = |<-----nonce--------------------time(d)     &= nbsp;     |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c)

        = |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d)

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(j)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(k)--Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        time(h)

 

 

 

3. Simple = Background Check Model.  

This figure matches to the sequence diagram from  = Figure 5 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture.

.----------.         = .---------------.         &n= bsp;    .----------.

| Attester = |         | Relying Party = |            =   | Verifier |

'----------'         = '---------------'         &n= bsp;    '----------'

   = time(a)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

   = time(b)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

   = time(e)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

   = time(k)---Evidence------->|       &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;     = |------Evidence---------->time(f)

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;     = |            =              = time(g){@time(h)}

          =             &= nbsp;    time(l)<-Attestation = Result-time(i)

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   = time(h)           =             = |

 

 

4. Nonce = based Background Check Model

For completeness

.----------.         = .---------------.         &n= bsp;    .----------.

| Attester = |         | Relying Party = |            =   | Verifier |

'----------'         = '---------------'         &n= bsp;    '----------'

   = time(a)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

   = time(b)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

     = |            =          = time(c)           =             = |

     = |<------nonce---------time(d)       = ;          =       |

   = time(e)           =         = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

   = time(k)---Evidence------->|       &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       |

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;     = |------Evidence---------->time(f)

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;     = |            =              = time(g){@time(h)}

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   time(l)<-Attestation = Result-time(i)

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   = time(h)           =             = |

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;     = |            =             &= nbsp;  |

 

 

Thanks,

Eric

 

 

 

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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JjRf02kMMG9e for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 273093A0C7F for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id BlSajaA5Q0nFvBlSajajHX; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:26:40 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=eadDgIMH c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=0XtbOteLAAAA:20 a=T37vzS6qiPLK9yS2R7cA:9 a=G7mss7-ENFJi7UmT:21 a=6Ptrt5xIHUTVbXKq:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=whrhvlVfouyLw_hh:21 a=QJQpVb5qTuKV6JW8:21 a=pGeRbiyE78ev5EHP:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=WQnItmPV2fbdzLaCP6-h:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=Ew2E2A-JSTLzCXPT_086:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7927BB22-1557-4F09-BB8D-B7939337088D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:26:40 -0700 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDIuqXpxtveKAVKtk7vCpb9Fx6Ps1Kx8H/BloIdLJ/SOwO9081ucacbM+KADdsyKW+1c4gQ4R0fFjmtIQ6O825dnYQO0zbswO83F3XMDcD3/zaHoZ60g pCxdXhAJ2XIgpu4c98T7DF6G5x2k4W0N/50v2zIM7yB/4n2AwkN0W9+B Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Time stamps in tokens X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:26:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7927BB22-1557-4F09-BB8D-B7939337088D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The issue of time stamps came up in the architecture group. Some = discussion is here in GitHub = . This is a rough proposal for changes to EAT to make it more = sophisticated and flexible at handling time stamps. This is not actual = normative text yet. Creation time =E2=80=94 This is the time that the value for a claim came = to be, for example the time a measurement or a sample was taken. This = value may be stored for a long time before the Attester collects it. = Examples include a GPS sample taken before entering a basement, a SW = measurement taken at boot or a SW integrity measurement taken by a run = time integrity checker (RTIC). Each claim, or even sub parts of a claim can have its own Creation Time. = You could say Creation Time is roughly per-claim. There is no generic means for time stamping a claim, instead the = definition of each claim for which Creation Time is important should = include a data item for a Creation Time. EAT would add time a stamp to the location claim and for any measurement = and integrity check claims. Most of the other claims don=E2=80=99t vary = over time. Issued At Time (collection/signing time) =E2=80=94 This is the time that = a token is created, the time when all the claims are collected and the = token is signed. For simplicity, it is assumed that all the claims are = collected at the same time and that is the same time that the token is = signed. Each submodule may have an Issued At Time. Though it is not = expected to be common, this makes submodules a way to group claims that = are collected together at a different time. The Creation Time can be absolute or relative. If relative, it is to the = Issued At Time and is filled in by the attester when collecting the = claims values. The Issued At Time is either absolute or absent, never relative (If we = allow it to be relative, we have add the complexity of distinguishing = the collection time from the signing time and assume the signing time is = the conveyance time as we don=E2=80=99t want any claims that are not = signed). The Expiration and Not-Before Time claims typically only go in the = Attestation Result, the output of the Verifier, but they may occur in = Attestation Evidence too. Like the Issued At Time, they are per = submodule and absolute. When they go in the Attestation Result, they = represent some recommendation by the Verifier as to the validity period, = typically how long until the token is no longer considered trustworthy. = It is more meaningful for the Verifier to make this recommendation than = for an Attester to claim this about itself. (A time-to-live/expire could be added as a relative expiration time if = we want to accommodate Verifiers that don=E2=80=99t know what time it = is). Since Issued At, Expiration and Not-Before already exist in CWT, all = that is needed is some explanatory text for them. LL= --Apple-Mail=_7927BB22-1557-4F09-BB8D-B7939337088D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
The issue of time stamps came up in the architecture group. = Some discussion is here in GitHub.

This is a rough proposal for changes to = EAT to make it more sophisticated and flexible at handling time stamps. = This is not actual normative text yet.


Creation time =E2=80=94 This is the time that the value = for a claim came to be, for example the time a measurement or a sample = was taken. This value may be stored for a long time before the = Attester collects it. Examples include a GPS sample taken before = entering a basement, a SW measurement taken at boot or a SW integrity = measurement taken by a run time integrity checker (RTIC).

Each claim, or even sub parts of a claim can = have its own Creation Time. You could say Creation Time is roughly = per-claim.

There is = no generic means for time stamping a claim, instead the definition of = each claim for which Creation Time is important should include a = data item for a Creation Time.

EAT would add time a stamp to the location claim and for any = measurement and integrity check claims. Most of the other claims don=E2=80= =99t vary over time.

Issued = At Time (collection/signing time) =E2=80=94 This is the time that a = token is created, the time when all the claims are collected and the = token is signed. For simplicity, it is assumed that all the = claims are collected at the same time and that is the same time = that the token is signed.  Each submodule may have an Issued At = Time. Though it is not expected to be common, this makes submodules = a way to group claims that are collected together at a different = time.

The Creation Time can be absolute or = relative. If relative, it is to the Issued At Time and is filled in by = the attester when collecting the claims values.

The Issued At Time is either absolute or absent, never = relative (If we allow it to be relative, we have add the complexity of = distinguishing the collection time from the signing time and assume = the signing time is the conveyance time as we don=E2=80=99t want = any claims that are not signed).

The Expiration and Not-Before Time claims = typically only go in the Attestation Result, the output of the Verifier, = but they may occur in Attestation Evidence too. Like the Issued At Time, = they are per submodule and absolute. When they go in the = Attestation Result, they represent some recommendation by the Verifier = as to the validity period, typically how long until the token is no = longer considered trustworthy. It is more meaningful for the = Verifier to make this recommendation than for an Attester to claim this = about itself.

 (A time-to-live/expire could be added as a relative = expiration time if we want to accommodate Verifiers that don=E2=80=99t = know what time it is).

Since Issued At, Expiration and Not-Before already exist in = CWT, all that is needed is some explanatory text for them.

LL
= --Apple-Mail=_7927BB22-1557-4F09-BB8D-B7939337088D-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 14:05:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687FA3A0DC9 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DshML0cVeEiC for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa07-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D8B43A0DCE for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Bm3kj07pKJ851Bm3lj4Pry; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:05:05 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TIU7tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=Tgt2beEsp8dubhHeQV4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=DleNBVPeW1EKNOg8:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A93CD679-CFB8-4A21-B70A-23EC75DE6A4A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:05:04 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "rats@ietf.org" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCxD2oQWrFfSP0JHM3hD4nvHQZMs9hISTi1ihMXGRM9jOvw9jDDvNZnH/guSVSKEhl47Hd0Kt9WBDWHjUljNhzFi1KplD/zZnSTPKeEY0GWQ942brlib c8zaINz4PQadISPVEQdMAjbpicN0HtXEV6Ezym4wRTTVu/mk0DM2ps7VvGbWSNZaBmragfIGCw2ANKfX4Oo8lfoO5d2+66zANwY= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:05:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A93CD679-CFB8-4A21-B70A-23EC75DE6A4A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = wrote: >=20 > 2. Nonce based Composite Evidence Passport. =20 > This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing > ..----------. ..----------. .---------------. > | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | > '----------' '----------' '---------------' > time(a) | | > time(b) | | > | time(c) | > |<-----nonce--------------------time(d) | > time(e) | | > |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | > | time(g){@time(h)} | > |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | > | | time(c) > |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d) > time(e) | | > time(j) | | > time(k)--Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) > | | time(h) Something seems off here. By my understanding of the passport model, the = Attestation Result is the passport and can only be created by a = Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating there = Attestation Result.=20 Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and time(e) and say the = the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 = classic passport where the attester just passes the result through. The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second Attestation = Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route that to a = second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have composition. I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation Results. LL= --Apple-Mail=_A93CD679-CFB8-4A21-B70A-23EC75DE6A4A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

2. Nonce based Composite = Evidence Passport.  
This = figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing
   = ..----------.          &= nbsp;          = ..----------.  .---------------.
   = | Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           = |
        = |<-----nonce--------------------time(d)     &n= bsp;     |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &n= bsp;     |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      time(g){@time(h)} |
        = |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         =   |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |             = time(c)
        = |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d)
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(j)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      time(k)--Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  =       |      &= nbsp;      = time(h)

Something= seems off here. By my understanding of the passport model, the = Attestation Result is the passport and can only be created by a = Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating there = Attestation Result. 

Seems like = one fix is to remove the second nonce and time(e) and say the the = Attestation Result is exactly the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 = classic passport where the attester just passes the result = through.

The other fix is to have = the Attester produce a second Attestation Evidence that includes the = first Attestation Result, route that to a second verifier and then on to = the RP. Then you have composition.

I = don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation = Results.

LL
= --Apple-Mail=_A93CD679-CFB8-4A21-B70A-23EC75DE6A4A-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 14:26:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B775D3A0DDA for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fe__8wKydb5y for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF8C3A0DD0 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Mar 2020 14:26:22 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,538,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="277116049" Received: from orsmsx110.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.8]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2020 14:26:22 -0700 Received: from orsmsx158.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.20) by ORSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:26:21 -0700 Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) by ORSMSX158.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.10.225]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:26:21 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwARw94A//+QmAA= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:26:21 +0000 Message-ID: <205E0664-37D1-4BB0-978F-C431BFFB321C@intel.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-originating-ip: [10.254.177.50] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_205E066437D14BB0978FC431BFFB321Cintelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:26:26 -0000 --_000_205E066437D14BB0978FC431BFFB321Cintelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBPR08MB4251 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Time stamps in tokens X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:55:55 -0000 SGkgTGF1cmVuY2UsDQoNCk9uIDEwLzAzLzIwMjAsIDIwOjI3LCAiUkFUUyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2Yg TGF1cmVuY2UgTHVuZGJsYWRlIg0KPHJhdHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2Yg bGdsQGlzbGFuZC1yZXNvcnQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gW1NOSVBdDQoNClRoYW5rcy4gIEEgY291 cGxlIG9mIGZseS1ieSB0aG91Z2h0czoNCg0KLSBJIGRvbid0IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIHNlbWFu dGljcyBvZiBuYmYgaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRleHQgb2YgYXR0ZXN0YXRpb24uDQogIEhvdyBjb3VsZCBz b21lb25lIHByb2R1Y2UgYXR0ZXN0YXRpb24gbWF0ZXJpYWwgdGhhdCBpcyBub3QgeWV0IHZhbGlk Pw0KDQotIEFub3RoZXIgdGhpbmcgdGhhdCBjb25mdXNlIG1lIGlzIHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQgbmJm 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Laurence, =20 In-line with =20 From: Laurence Lundblade, March 10, 2020 5:05 PM On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = > wrote: =20 2. Nonce based Composite Evidence Passport. =20 This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce--------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c) |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d) time(e) | | time(j) | | time(k)--Attestation Result + Evidence----------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 Something seems off here. By my understanding of the passport model, the = Attestation Result is the passport and can only be created by a = Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating there = Attestation Result.=20 =20 Agree that Attestation Results can only be created by a Verifier. = The reason this was on the diagram was that Figure 4 from = draft-ietf-rats-architecture showed "Attestation Evidence" as part of = this specific flow. And it *is* part of the flow. But there is other = Evidence in the flow too. To reflect this, I have added "+ Evidence" to = the figure above. =20 Generalizing the question a bit, adding Evidence to a passport is a = natural thing. Think about your US passport. Every time you go through = a port, it is stamped with additional information. And this becomes a = part of that passport which subsequent countries can see. But it wasn't = information attested by the US. =20 Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and time(e) and say the = the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 = classic passport where the attester just passes the result through. =20 The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second Attestation = Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route that to a = second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have composition. =20 Hopefully my answer above clears this up. There is more in = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing section 4.2 which addresses = specific topics on this flow. =20 =20 The main intent of this thread was to dive into the specific definitions = of the timing definitions. Perhaps if you have questions on this = Section 4.21 flow, comment on the thread about = "draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing"? =20 I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation Results. =20 Agree they do not produce Attestation Results. =20 =20 Eric =20 LL ------=_NextPart_001_01EA_01D5F707.266E9230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Laurence,

 

In-line with = <eric>

 

From: = Laurence Lundblade, March 10, 2020 5:05 = PM

On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

2. Nonce based Composite Evidence = Passport.  

This figure matches to the sequence diagram from = Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   = | Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

        = |<-----nonce--------------------time(d)     &= nbsp;     |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c)

        = |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d)

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(j)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      time(k)--Attestation Result = + = Evidence----------->time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        = time(h)

 

Something seems off here. By my understanding of the = passport model, the Attestation Result is the passport and can only be = created by a Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating = there Attestation Result. 

 

<eric> Agree that = Attestation Results can only be created by a Verifier.=C2=A0 The reason = this was on the diagram was that Figure 4 from = draft-ietf-rats-architecture showed "Attestation Evidence" as = part of this specific flow.=C2=A0 And it *is* part of the flow.=C2=A0 = But there is other Evidence in the flow too.=C2=A0 To reflect this, I = have added "+ Evidence" to the figure = above.

 

Generalizing the = question a bit, adding Evidence to a passport is a natural thing.=C2=A0 = Think about your US passport.=C2=A0 Every time you go through a port, it = is stamped with additional information.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And this becomes a = part of that passport which subsequent countries can see.=C2=A0 But it = wasn't information attested by the = US.

 

Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and = time(e) and say the the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both = occurrences =E2=80=94 classic passport where the attester just passes = the result through.

 

The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second = Attestation Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route = that to a second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have = composition.

 

<eric> Hopefully = my answer above clears this up.=C2=A0 There is more in = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing section 4.2 which addresses = specific topics on this flow.=C2=A0

 

The main intent of this = thread was to dive into the specific definitions of the timing = definitions.=C2=A0 Perhaps if you have questions on this Section 4.21 = flow, comment on the thread about = "draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing"?

 

I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce = Attestation Results.

 

<eric>=C2=A0 Agree they do not produce = Attestation Results.=C2=A0

 

Eric

 

LL

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Executive Director To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IETF 107 cancellation administrative follow-up X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.120.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158387786370.15836.7193448160240349206@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:04:23 -0700 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "IETF announcement list. 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Meeting registration fees: - Starting now we will be refunding any cancellation fee that we have retained for the cancellation of an in-person registration. - Starting in 48 hours time we will begin to refund in full all registration fees for those registered to participate in-person. - Unfortunately we are not able to roll forward the registration fee to IETF 108 Madrid for a number of administrative and financial reasons, most notably the different taxation requirements between Canada and Spain. - We are aware that some people do not want their registrations fees refunded and have asked us to convert it to a donation, which we will do. Anyone else who prefers this option please let us know at ietf-registrar@ietf.org before the refund process starts. - The delay of 48 hours is to give us time to see if we can process all refunds automatically, but if that is not possible then each registration will be processed manually by the Secretariat team and this will take some time. 2. Hotel bookings in contracted hotels: - If you are booked at the Hyatt, Metropolitan or Sutton Place hotels then you can cancel with 72 hours notice and no cancellation fee. - If you are booked at the Fairmont hotel and have paid the one-night non-refundable deposit, they have informed us that they will refund this deposit. - If you are booked at the Coast Coal Harbour Hotel then we understand that they retain the right to keep the deposit. We are working with them to see if they will consider waiving that given the extraordinary circumstances. - Contact information for each of the IETF hotels is available on the IETF 107 Vancouver hotel webpage [1]. Should you experience any difficulty cancelling your reservation, please contact us at ietf-registrar@ietf.org for assistance. 3. Financial impact on the LLC: - We are discussing with the venue the possibility of rescheduling the meeting to a later year. Doing this may mean back-to-back North American meetings. - We particularly want to thank the meeting host, Huawei, for supporting us fully in these difficult circumstances. - Our sponsors have been contacted and a number have already responded that they wish to sponsor the virtual meeting or roll forward their sponsorship to the next in-person meeting, for which we want to express our thanks. - We have comprehensive insurance and are exploring what claims we can make. - We expect that we will still need to dip into reserves to cover substantial unavoidable costs but we do not anticipate any significant financial impact from doing so. If you have any questions or comments then please feel free to contact me directly. [1] https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/107/hotel/ -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --_002_485FFD12151A40BB8CBA7F26DBB9F444ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 20:20:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5B33A103C for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1u8i-AbumM1j for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1588E3A103B for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id AB8F499823DBA9797D7B for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:20:13 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:20:11 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:20:11 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6I///kqkAgAASO4D//z7xkA== Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:20:10 +0000 Message-ID: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.152] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:20:41 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15.01.1713.004; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:30:17 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwAQN3Yw Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:30:17 +0000 Message-ID: <92f11d0bbedc4ad6b618cd7ecdcce5da@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.152] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_92f11d0bbedc4ad6b618cd7ecdcce5dahuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 03:30:31 -0000 --_000_92f11d0bbedc4ad6b618cd7ecdcce5dahuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QSBtaW5vciB1cGRhdGUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGRlZmluaXRpb24gb2YgZXhwaXJ5IHRpbWWjug0KDQp0 aW1lKGgpDQoNClRpbWUgb2YgUmVzdWx0cyBleHBpcnkNCg0KVGltZSBzdGF0ZWQgYnkgYSBWZXJp ZmllciB3aGVuIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgaW5zdGFuY2Ugb2YgQXR0ZXN0YXRpb24gUmVzdWx0cyBzaG91 bGQgbm8gbG9uZ2VyIGJlIGFjY2VwdGVkIGJ5IGEgUmVseWluZyBQYXJ0eQ0KDQoNCjEuU2ltcGxl IFBhc3Nwb3J0IE1vZGVsLg0KVGhpcyBmaWd1cmUgbWF0Y2hlcyB0byB0aGUgc2VxdWVuY2UgZGlh Z3JhbSBmcm9tIEZpZ3VyZSA0IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcmF0cy1hcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuDQoNCiAg IC4uLS0tLS0tLS0tLS4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAuLi0tLS0tLS0tLS0uICAuLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLg0KICAgfCBBdHRlc3RlciB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCBWZXJpZmll ciB8ICB8IFJlbHlpbmcgUGFydHkgfA0KICAgJy0tLS0tLS0tLS0nICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgJy0tLS0tLS0tLS0nICAnLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tJw0KICAgICAgdGltZShhKSAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwNCiAgICAgIHRpbWUoYikgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8DQogICAgICB0aW1lKGUp 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A minor update about the definition of exp= iry time=A3=BA<= /span>

 

time(h)

Time of Results expiry

Time stated= by a Verifier when a specific instance of Attestation Results should no lo= nger be accepted by a Relying Party<= /span>

 

1.Simple Passport Model.

This figure matches to the sequence diagram from = Figure 4 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture.

 

&nb= sp;  ..----------.        &nbs= p;            ..----= ------.  .---------------.

&nb= sp;  | Attester |         = ;            | Verif= ier |  | Relying Party |

&nb= sp;  '----------'         = ;            '------= ----'  '---------------'

&nb= sp;     time(a)      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;         |   &n= bsp;           |

&nb= sp;     time(b)      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;         |   &n= bsp;           |

&nb= sp;     time(e)      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;         |   &n= bsp;           |

&nb= sp;       |------Evidence---------------->= time(f)           |<= /o:p>

&nb= sp;       |     &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            tim= e(g){@time(h)} |

&nb= sp;       |     &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            tim= e(j)           |

&nb= sp;       |<-----Attestation Result-------= time(i)           |<= /o:p>

&nb= sp;     time(k)--Attestation Result--------------------= -->time(l)

&nb= sp;       |     &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;  |           = ;  time(h)

I think in this case the expiry time can a= lso be included.

 

 

Regards & T= hanks!

=C5=CB=CE=B0 Wei P= an

=BB=AA=CE=AA=BC=BC=CA=F5=D3=D0=CF= =DE=B9=AB=CB=BE Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.

 

 

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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:35:13 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Panwei (William)" , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwADGMYAAAF6neAAC58LAAAS6YOg Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:35:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.92] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5df66bfe-c8a1-4dfa-711b-08d7c5b8a525 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB3220: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6430; x-forefront-prvs: 0339F89554 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(39860400002)(366004)(376002)(396003)(136003)(346002)(199004)(9326002)(8936002)(110136005)(71200400001)(478600001)(5660300002)(4326008)(6506007)(2906002)(52536014)(53546011)(9686003)(186003)(33656002)(316002)(8676002)(26005)(66556008)(66616009)(66446008)(64756008)(86362001)(76116006)(66946007)(55016002)(66476007)(81166006)(81156014)(7696005)(579004); 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FE_01D5F77F.F9746600" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5df66bfe-c8a1-4dfa-711b-08d7c5b8a525 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Mar 2020 12:35:13.1113 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: n3AMgz5GV8CRcJ6PBdBbYR4DnCr0et+gamgIMfkdi85kXW/Xwsmb8NqVJJR5qyer X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3220 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:35:29 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01D5F77F.F9746600 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01FF_01D5F77F.F9746600" ------=_NextPart_001_01FF_01D5F77F.F9746600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Wei, =20 From: Panwei (William), March 10, 2020 11:20 PM I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. =20 So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce1-------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c=E2=80=99) |<-----nonce2-----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) time(e=E2=80=99) | | |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 Agree this is a valid model. It is =C2=BD way between Models (1) = & (2) from the original email. It prefer this model to the simple = Passport Model (1) from Figure 4 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. I = have been assuming Figure 4 simplified away the nonces. =20 =20 And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. .----------. .------------. = .------------------------------------. | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' time(a) | | = | time(b) | | = | | time(c) | = | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | time(e) | | = | |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | | time(g){@time(h)} | = | |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | | | | = | time(a=E2=80=99) | | = | time(b=E2=80=99) | | = | | | = time(c=E2=80=99) | |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) = | time(e=E2=80=99) | | = | |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) | | | = time(h) | | | = time(h') More than Verifier 1 and Verifier 2 depicted in the diagram, between = Attester and Relying Party there can be multiple Verifiers, whether = within the same entity or not. I think this is an variant of the simple = nonce-based passport model and the simple nonce-based passport model may = be enough for timeliness consideration. =20 I agree that this is a viable variant. Adding the numbers and = the 'single quotes' to the second instance of the letters does provide = useful specificity. For simplicities sake, I probably wouldn't break = out what is in the Verifier2+Relying Party. =20 Eric =20 Regards & Thanks! =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 = Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. =20 From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Voit (evoit) Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 6:10 AM To: Laurence Lundblade > Cc: rats@ietf.org =20 Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions =20 Hi Laurence, =20 In-line with =20 From: Laurence Lundblade, March 10, 2020 5:05 PM On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = > wrote: =20 2. Nonce based Composite Evidence Passport. =20 This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing ..----------. ..----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce--------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c) |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d) time(e) | | time(j) | | time(k)--Attestation Result + Evidence----------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 Something seems off here. By my understanding of the passport model, the = Attestation Result is the passport and can only be created by a = Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating there = Attestation Result.=20 =20 Agree that Attestation Results can only be created by a Verifier. = The reason this was on the diagram was that Figure 4 from = draft-ietf-rats-architecture showed "Attestation Evidence" as part of = this specific flow. And it *is* part of the flow. But there is other = Evidence in the flow too. To reflect this, I have added "+ Evidence" to = the figure above. =20 Generalizing the question a bit, adding Evidence to a passport is a = natural thing. Think about your US passport. Every time you go through = a port, it is stamped with additional information. And this becomes a = part of that passport which subsequent countries can see. But it wasn't = information attested by the US. =20 Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and time(e) and say the = the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 = classic passport where the attester just passes the result through. =20 The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second Attestation = Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route that to a = second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have composition. =20 Hopefully my answer above clears this up. There is more in = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing section 4.2 which addresses = specific topics on this flow. =20 =20 The main intent of this thread was to dive into the specific definitions = of the timing definitions. Perhaps if you have questions on this = Section 4.21 flow, comment on the thread about = "draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing"? =20 I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation Results. =20 Agree they do not produce Attestation Results. =20 =20 Eric =20 LL ------=_NextPart_001_01FF_01D5F77F.F9746600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Wei,

 

From: Panwei (William), March 10, = 2020 11:20 PM

I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that = the entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and = in this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result = to that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the = Evidence and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation = Results.

 

So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just = sends Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, = and the passport is simply the Attestation Result. =

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

      &nbs= p; = |<-----nonce1-------------------time(d)     &= nbsp;     |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      &nbs= p; = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} = |

      &nbs= p; |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c=E2=80=99)

      &nbs= p; = |<-----nonce2-----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)<= /o:p>

      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =    |

      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        time(h)

 

<eric> Agree = this is a valid model.=C2=A0 It is =C2=BD way between Models (1) & = (2) from the original email.=C2=A0 It prefer this model to the simple = Passport Model (1) from Figure 4 of draft-ietf-rats-architecture.=C2=A0 = I have been assuming Figure 4 simplified away the = nonces.

 

 

And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, = the Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and = Verifier.

For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester.

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .------------.      = .------------------------------------.

   | Attester = |            =          | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(b)           =             =       |      =              = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           =     = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        = ;       = |            =           = |

      = time(e)           =        =            | =             &= nbsp;     = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        = ;       = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; |<-----Attestation Result = 1-----time(i)          =      = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &= nbsp;        |   &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;       |

      &nbs= p; |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   =             &= nbsp; |

      = time(e=E2=80=99)  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; |          &n= bsp;        = |            =           = |

      &nbs= p; |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &= nbsp;      time(l)

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      = |

       =  |           =             &= nbsp;         = |            =      time(i')-----AR = 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =         = time(h)

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =      =    time(h')

More than Verifier 1 and Verifier 2 depicted in the diagram, = between Attester and Relying Party there can be multiple Verifiers, = whether within the same entity or not. I think this is an variant of the = simple nonce-based passport model and the simple nonce-based passport = model may be enough for timeliness = consideration.

 

<eric> I agree = that this is a viable variant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Adding the numbers and the = 'single quotes' to the second instance of the letters does provide = useful specificity.=C2=A0=C2=A0 For simplicities sake, I probably = wouldn't break out what is in the Verifier2+Relying = Party.

 

Eric=

 

Regards & Thanks!

=E6=BD= =98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan

=E5=8D= =8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8= Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.

 

From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Eric Voit (evoit)
Sent: Wednesday, March = 11, 2020 6:10 AM
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [Rats] Attestation Timing = Definitions

 

Hi = Laurence,

 

In-line with = <eric>

 

From: Laurence Lundblade, March 10, 2020 = 5:05 PM

On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric = Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

2. Nonce based Composite Evidence = Passport.  

This figure matches to the sequence = diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

   = ..----------.          =            = ..----------.  .---------------.

   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

      &nbs= p; = |<-----nonce--------------------time(d)     &= nbsp;     |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      &nbs= p; = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} |

      &nbs= p; |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c)

      &nbs= p; = |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d)

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(j)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(k)--Attestation Result + = Evidence----------->time(l)

      &nbs= p; = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        time(h)

 

Something seems off here. By my = understanding of the passport model, the Attestation Result is the = passport and can only be created by a Verifier. This diagram seems to = show the Attester creating there Attestation = Result. 

 

<eric> Agree = that Attestation Results can only be created by a Verifier.  The = reason this was on the diagram was that Figure 4 from = draft-ietf-rats-architecture showed "Attestation Evidence" as = part of this specific flow.  And it *is* part of the flow.  = But there is other Evidence in the flow too.  To reflect this, I = have added "+ Evidence" to the figure = above.

 

Generalizing the = question a bit, adding Evidence to a passport is a natural thing.  = Think about your US passport.  Every time you go through a port, it = is stamped with additional information.   And this becomes a = part of that passport which subsequent countries can see.  But it = wasn't information attested by the US.

 

Seems like one fix is to remove the = second nonce and time(e) and say the the Attestation Result is exactly = the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 classic passport where the = attester just passes the result = through.

 

The other fix is to have the = Attester produce a second Attestation Evidence that includes the first = Attestation Result, route that to a second verifier and then on to the = RP. Then you have composition.

 

<eric> = Hopefully my answer above clears this up.  There is more in = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing section 4.2 which addresses = specific topics on this flow. 

 

The main intent of = this thread was to dive into the specific definitions of the timing = definitions.  Perhaps if you have questions on this Section 4.21 = flow, comment on the thread about = "draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing"?

 

I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can = produce Attestation Results.

 

<eric>  = Agree they do not produce Attestation Results.  =

 

Eric=

 

LL

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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_020B_01D5F781.23EF8800" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9b7b8382-f9e7-4506-f3c9-08d7c5b9d14b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Mar 2020 12:43:36.6862 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ZzlHc886+H6EhMFd8aHS1U14SuhCoNXJylbDc5wB90rdPRPus7Q7CpatFm4Ry5p8 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3235 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:43:42 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_020B_01D5F781.23EF8800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_020C_01D5F781.23EF8800" ------=_NextPart_001_020C_01D5F781.23EF8800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Wei, =20 From: Panwei (William), March 10, 2020 11:30 PM A minor update about the definition of expiry time=EF=BC=9A =20 time(h) Time of Results expiry Time stated by a Verifier when a specific instance of Attestation = Results should no longer be accepted by a Relying Party Agree with text tweak. =20 1.Simple Passport Model.=20 This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 4 of = draft-ietf-rats-architecture. =20 .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | | time(j) | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | time(k)--Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) I think in this case the expiry time can also be included. =20 I agree time(h) can be supported by this case. If these timing = diagrams ever make it into a rats-draft then we will need to determine = which subset of variants to present as many variants exist.=20 =20 Eric =20 Regards & Thanks! =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 = Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_020C_01D5F781.23EF8800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello = Wei,

 

From: Panwei (William), March 10, = 2020 11:30 PM

A minor update = about the definition of expiry time=EF=BC=9A<= /p>

 

<= td width=3D66 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:49.2pt;border:solid windowtext = 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'>

time(h)

Time of Results expiry

Time stated by a Verifier = when a specific instance of Attestation Results should no longer be = accepted by a Relying Party

<eric> Agree with = text tweak.

 

1.Simple = Passport Model.

This figure = matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 4 of = draft-ietf-rats-architecture.

 

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   | Attester = |            =          | Verifier |  | = Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(j)           = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

      = time(k)--Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =  time(h)

I think in this = case the expiry time can also be included.

 

<eric> I agree = time(h) can be supported by this case.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If these timing = diagrams ever make it into a rats-draft then we will need to determine = which subset of variants to present as many variants exist. =

 

Eric

 

Regards & = Thanks!

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei = Pan

=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C= =AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei = Technologies Co., Ltd.

 

 

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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dn9c-BY3lRd7 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19A283A185E for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3AEBB192FB4A0B1444FD for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:46:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:46:03 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:46:00 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:46:00 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6I///kqkAgAASO4D//z7xkIABsrUA//94r9A= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:46:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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------=_NextPart_001_0222_01D5F783.352DAD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, =20 From: Smith, Ned, March 10, 2020 5:26 PM I second Laurence=E2=80=99s point about Attester sending AR to a RP or = Attester sending Evidence to RP.=20 The use case would benefit from separating =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 from = =E2=80=98role=E2=80=99. The entity implementing the RP also implements a = Verifier (V2) (This is because Evidence at time k is different from = Evidence at time f.=20 =20 Agree. Hopefully my answer to Laurence clarified that. If at = some point we desire to place a sequence diagram into a draft, then we = absolutely need to ensure each row is easily referenceable. =20 Might be better to name them Evidence-E1 (at time f) and Evidence-E2 (at = time k). Now the diagram can show E2 from Attester to Verifier-V2. =20 This is fine with me. Right now I show "Attestation Result + = Evidence". But there is actually more than that in the variant of the = Passport from draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing. =20 The RP is accepting two inputs AR1 (at time i) and AR2 (at time h). = Note: AR at time k is actually mislabeled Evidence-E2, but also includes = a =E2=80=9Cpassport=E2=80=9D(?) which is AR1.=20 =20 Agree. Hopefully my answer to Laurence clarified that. =20 =20 What isn=E2=80=99t shown is AR2 which passes from V2 to RP. This is = uninteresting from a standards perspective because it is a local flow. = It is interesting from an architecture perspective because the third = entity needs policies for both Evidence and A.Results and has to account = for all the time variables.=20 =20 Wei's email contains a good depiction of this flow. =20 Eric =20 -Ned =20 From: RATS > on = behalf of Laurence Lundblade > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions =20 =20 =20 On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = > wrote: =20 2. Nonce based Composite Evidence Passport. =20 This figure matches to the sequence diagram from Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing ...----------. ...----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce--------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c) |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d) time(e) | | time(j) | | time(k)--Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 Something seems off here. By my understanding of the passport model, the = Attestation Result is the passport and can only be created by a = Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating there = Attestation Result.=20 =20 Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and time(e) and say the = the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both occurrences =E2=80=94 = classic passport where the attester just passes the result through. =20 The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second Attestation = Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route that to a = second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have composition. =20 I don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation Results. =20 LL ------=_NextPart_001_0222_01D5F783.352DAD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ned,

 

From: Smith, Ned, March 10, 2020 5:26 = PM

I second Laurence=E2=80=99s point about Attester sending AR to a = RP or Attester sending Evidence to RP.

The use case = would benefit from separating =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 from = =E2=80=98role=E2=80=99. The entity implementing the RP also implements a = Verifier (V2) (This is because Evidence at time k is different from = Evidence at time f.

 

<eric> Agree.=C2=A0 Hopefully my answer to = Laurence clarified that.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If at some point we desire to place = a sequence diagram into a draft, then we absolutely need to ensure each = row is easily referenceable.

 

Might be better to name them = Evidence-E1 (at time f) and Evidence-E2 (at time k). Now the diagram can = show E2 from Attester to Verifier-V2.

 

<eric> This is fine with me.=C2=A0 Right = now I show "Attestation Result + Evidence".=C2=A0=C2=A0 But = there is actually more than that in the variant of the Passport from = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing.

 

The RP is accepting two inputs AR1 = (at time i) and AR2 (at time h). Note: AR at time k is actually = mislabeled Evidence-E2, but also includes a = =E2=80=9Cpassport=E2=80=9D(?) which is AR1.

 

<eric> Agree.=C2=A0 Hopefully my answer to = Laurence clarified that.=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

What isn=E2=80=99t shown is AR2 = which passes from V2 to RP. This is uninteresting from a standards = perspective because it is a local flow. It is interesting from an = architecture perspective because the third entity needs policies for = both Evidence and A.Results and has to account for all the time = variables.

 

<eric> Wei's email contains a good = depiction of this flow.

 

Eric

 

-Ned

 

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM
To: "Eric = Voit (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing = Definitions

 

 

 

On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

2. Nonce based Composite Evidence = Passport.  

This figure matches to the sequence diagram from = Figure 3 of = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

   = ...----------.          = ;           = ...----------.  = .---------------.

   = | Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

        = |<-----nonce--------------------time(d)     &= nbsp;     |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c)

        = |<-----nonce------------------------------------time(d)

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(j)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      time(k)--Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>        = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        = time(h)

 

Something seems off here. By my understanding of the = passport model, the Attestation Result is the passport and can only be = created by a Verifier. This diagram seems to show the Attester creating = there Attestation Result. 

 

Seems like one fix is to remove the second nonce and = time(e) and say the the Attestation Result is exactly the same in both = occurrences =E2=80=94 classic passport where the attester just passes = the result through.

 

The other fix is to have the Attester produce a second = Attestation Evidence that includes the first Attestation Result, route = that to a second verifier and then on to the RP. Then you have = composition.

 

I = don=E2=80=99t think Attesters can produce Attestation = Results.

 

LL

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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owcWCIHWawDF for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE92C3A0DFD for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id C5EKjm4ihso8HC5ELjZ2af; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:33:17 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Zf1jyfdA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=i0EeH86SAAAA:8 a=wQLaGZ9sczJfdtaUgisA:9 a=2d-h5_NGd3dIkSdA:21 a=CxqRe4fUQcKUzhpa:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8wg_CCA9M0A3ZtRdVM4A:9 a=hI9OAD1hEV8Qkzy3:21 a=oOlXN-JKjYpjySIh:21 a=g-Tno0vfu0tfAptd:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9FB4FD89-E914-4442-BBE4-A628199B347E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:33:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Panwei (William)" References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHQzMYRFr9i2shotqKDue3VGdjXlLbbVXYMYGEYGz5bvNbDkISE0n2Np+ETl8Dm2+hBDbfTuzSvkl50avnqi1tRrUGhTjQUaCJ2qUQ6PQ0rww27Yi4mm 6//t2OMUVex9ELlG37GsDUh2aNUE90gVHzyri29ce7IR13WHjX4OA23Z0Y+bf9v3EYaZtOtikuhZvFlUwU1JLR9qCuIIpM4WSLcNciZTg+JYG+a1RzNCj94L w8cuhO6KiqdEENKX9YsfWw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:33:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9FB4FD89-E914-4442-BBE4-A628199B347E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) = wrote: >=20 > I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. > =20 > So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 > .----------. .----------. .---------------. > | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | > '----------' '----------' '---------------' > time(a) | | > time(b) | | > | time(c) | > |<-----nonce1-------------------time(d) | > time(e) | | > |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | > | time(g){@time(h)} | > |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | > | | time(c=E2=80=99)= > |<-----nonce2-----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)= > time(e=E2=80=99) | | > |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) > | | time(h) This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the = Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the definition of a = time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 = is if the Attester is signing which implies it is creating Evidence.=20 By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is = convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t= incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way. The only way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to go = along side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. = It could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go through = the Verifier to the RP. Note that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just = one to accommodate this. > =20 > =20 > And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. > For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. > .----------. .------------. = .------------------------------------. > | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | > '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' > time(a) | | = | > time(b) | | = | > | time(c) | = | > |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | > time(e) | | = | > |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | > | time(g){@time(h)} | = | > |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | > | | | = | > time(a=E2=80=99) | = | | > time(b=E2=80=99) | = | | > | | time(c=E2=80= =99) | > |<-----nonce 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80= =99) | > time(e=E2=80=99) | = | | > |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) > | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | > | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) > | | | = time(h) > | | | = time(h=E2=80=99) The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments: - Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If = nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP = to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with = much less trouble. Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the = PCRs and the job of Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age = of Evidence 1? Maybe even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by = a 3rd party while Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about = valid PCRs operated by the HW vendor. - If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three = claims: nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, = right? Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT = submods have to allow for TPM format attestations. LL --Apple-Mail=_9FB4FD89-E914-4442-BBE4-A628199B347E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:

I = think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the entity = of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case = the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that = entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and = the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results.
 
So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the = Attester just sends Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the = Relying Party, and the passport is simply the Attestation Result. 
   = .----------.          &n= bsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.
   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           = |
        = |<-----nonce1-------------------time(d)     &n= bsp;     |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &n= bsp;     |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      time(g){@time(h)} |
        = |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         =   |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |             = time(c=E2=80=99)
        = |<-----nonce2-----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)
      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;  |
      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  =       |      &= nbsp;      = time(h)


This still doesn=E2=80=99t= seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the Attester is signing and = creating Evidence because of the definition of a time id label (e). = Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 is if the Attester = is signing which implies it is creating Evidence. 

By my understanding in simple passport all the = attester is doing is convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to = the RP. It can=E2=80=99t incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful = way.

The only way to use nonce2 in = the simple passport model is for it to go along side of nonce1 and = arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. It could go direct to the = Attester from the RP or it could go through the Verifier to the = RP.

Note that the latest EAT draft = has an array of nonces rather than just one to accommodate = this.


 
 
And for a complex = model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the Attester will produce = another Evidence to be sent together with the Attestation Result to the = entity of Relying Party and Verifier.
For = example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester.
   = .----------.          &n= bsp;          = .------------.      = .------------------------------------.
   | Attester = |            &= nbsp;        | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           =       |      &= nbsp;            = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           &= nbsp;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;      =            | &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |<-----Attestation Result = 1-----time(i)          &= nbsp;    = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &n= bsp;        |   &nb= sp;            = ;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;       |
        |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
      time(e=E2=80=99)&nbs= p; =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p; |           = ;        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Attestation = Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &n= bsp;      time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      |
       =  |           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;         = |            &= nbsp;    time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;       time(h)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;    =    time(h=E2=80=99)

The flow seems technically correct, but a = few comments:

- Seems like an awful = lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If nonce2 can be made to = arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP to the Attester or via = Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with much less trouble. =  Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job = of Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? = Maybe even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party = while Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs = operated by the HW vendor.

- If = using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three claims: = nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, right? = Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT submods have = to allow for TPM format attestations.

LL


= --Apple-Mail=_9FB4FD89-E914-4442-BBE4-A628199B347E-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 13:15:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D153A0968; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.120.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: <158395770334.1569.10471823761336222823@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:15:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-01.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:15:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF. Title : A YANG Data Model for Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Procedures using TPMs Authors : Henk Birkholz Michael Eckel Shwetha Bhandari Bill Sulzen Eric Voit Liang Xia (Frank) Tom Laffey Guy C. Fedorkow Filename : draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-01.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2020-03-11 Abstract: This document defines a YANG RPC and a minimal datastore tree required to retrieve attestation evidence about integrity measurements from a composite device with one or more roots of trust for reporting. Complementary measurement logs are also provided by the YANG RPC originating from one or more roots of trust of measurement. The module defined requires at least one TPM 1.2 or TPM 2.0 and corresponding Trusted Software Stack included in the device components of the composite device the YANG server is running on. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Mar 11 19:24:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9423A0496 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:24:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8wmmXvIEEZP4 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 614FC3A045E for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 32536FE44738B534FE3A for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 02:24:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 02:24:35 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:24:27 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:24:27 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: Laurence Lundblade CC: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6I///kqkAgAASO4D//z7xkIACBfwA//78iWA= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 02:24:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.152] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6ehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 02:24:41 -0000 --_000_1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6ehuaweicom_ 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15:23:20 +0000 From: Guy Fedorkow To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "rats@ietf.org" CC: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay Thread-Topic: Can we use the IETF 107 RATs meeting slots and run virtual meetings? 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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A473A08B2 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id CRGWjLeMigX5OCRGWj8lzr; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:05:00 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=H/ulPNQi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=i0EeH86SAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=XivxeHpK5ShOJfNAUgEA:9 a=1lN1BhmuhmY__Vmj:21 a=EnfGCcqSO2fyeepA:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=mfDqwHzZm7I1yNfrlQEA:9 a=gQEOXt2ycOX_8Q2p:21 a=S9OLjWz6HV2YFKtj:21 a=ZPkC-zHcedknY6lb:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05A79D2B-3FD0-4BD9-8705-E0761EEAEB9F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:04:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Panwei (William)" References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCWY9ylIp2LBDq8zvUjRllI65a2BZBnOkjhgJOEdH2EhLKMJcKuqa34iZvII1MJwoQJbjZK+/V3+yI0MoU7EPIxOyeec23M6dZA0brfmzTrXd1YUZXSv 1Tn1gAdl67bC1smyDV1/lGiF13nc/ZuU6Cj4rxiFCg0H33iBEo3CksE63Dez7nUzofxiXR9tqAeD9mc5FhJdOmzL9AJ2ODP8DUmkSFDViX01UX5zqJBusgIC ZK3y4Q5SykbNfjyrNXK8Qg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 17:05:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05A79D2B-3FD0-4BD9-8705-E0761EEAEB9F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Wei, below... > On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) = wrote: >=20 > =20 > =20 > Regards & Thanks! > =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan > =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8= Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 AM > To: Panwei (William) > > Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) >; rats@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) = > wrote: > =20 > I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. > =20 > So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 > .----------. .----------. .---------------. > | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | > '----------' '----------' '---------------' > time(a) | | > time(b) | | > | time(c) | > |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | > time(e) | | > |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | > | time(g){@time(h)} | > |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | > | | time(c=E2=80=99)= > |<-----nonce 2----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)= > time(e=E2=80=99) | | > |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) > | | time(h) > =20 > =20 > This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the = Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the definition of a = time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 = is if the Attester is signing which implies it is creating Evidence. > [Wei] The Attester sends messages to the RP, can it sign the whole = message whose payload contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a = =E2=80=98Attestation Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating = Evidence when the Attester is signing? >=20 The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in time and time(e) = is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose another letter if = it is not signing Evidence.=20 I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in = EAT so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover = all the flows.=20 If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then it=E2=80=99s about = more than labeling points in time and should start talking about formats = and names for that Attester signing that is not Evidence. Or maybe call = it proprietary format or a TBD format. It also begs the question of the = signing keys get set up and distributed, which is complicated stuff. It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that in the = Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results through = without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be called = Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. > =20 > By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is = convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t= incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way. > =20 > The only way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to = go along side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of = Evidence. It could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go = through the Verifier to the RP. > [Wei] I think this is also a reasonable case that the Evidence should = include nonce from the RP and this may bring different considerations of = timeliness. >=20 > =20 > Note that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just = one to accommodate this. > =20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. > For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. > .----------. .------------. = .------------------------------------. > | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | > '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' > time(a) | | = | > time(b) | | = | > | time(c) | = | > |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | > time(e) | | = | > |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | > | time(g){@time(h)} | = | > |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | > | | | = | > time(a=E2=80=99) | = | | > time(b=E2=80=99) | = | | > | | time(c=E2=80= =99) | > |<-----nonce 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80= =99) | > time(e=E2=80=99) | = | | > |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) > | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | > | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) > | | | = time(h) > | | | = time(h=E2=80=99) > =20 > The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments: > =20 > - Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. = If nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the = RP to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) = with much less trouble. > [Wei] Same as the previous one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a = reasonable case that should be considered. >=20 > Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of = Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe = even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while = Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated = by the HW vendor. > [Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there may be multiple = Verifiers for different purposes. >=20 > =20 > - If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three = claims: nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, = right? Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT = submods have to allow for TPM format attestations. > [Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not appropriate to say Evidence contains = Attestation Result, they may be transited in the same message, but they = are semantically different. So the message sent by the Attester to the = RP has three claims, of which the first two being seen as Evidence and = the last one being seen as Attestation Result. >=20 Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation Result as a claim = in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did some of the work. The = second Verifier would need some means to trust the first Verifier. I = think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs and HW measurements = and the second one being an ML-based system fits here. I suspect we=E2=80=99= re going to see all sorts of things in claims over the years, some = wonderful, some horrible. But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if you define the = second signing to not be Evidence. Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to time (n) if it is = not an Attester signing Evidence. LL= --Apple-Mail=_05A79D2B-3FD0-4BD9-8705-E0761EEAEB9F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Wei,

below...



On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:

 
 
Regards & Thanks!
=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan
=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99= =90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., = Ltd.
 
From: Laurence = Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 = 1:33 AM
To: Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc: Eric = Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation = Timing Definitions
 
 


On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> = wrote:
 
I think Ned=E2=80=99s = email also has detailedly explained that the entity of Relying Party can = also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case the Attester sends = Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that entity, within that = entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and the Relying Party = role consumes the two Attestation Results.
 
So,= for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result. 
   = .----------.          &n= bsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.
   | = Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           = |
        = |<-----nonce 1------------------tim= e(d)           = |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &n= bsp;     |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      time(g){@time(h)} |
        = |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         =   |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |             = time(c=E2=80=99)
        = |<-----nonce 2---------------------= -------------time(d=E2=80=99)
      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;  |
      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  =       |      &= nbsp;      time(h)
 
 
This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) = indicates the Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the = definition of a time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to = securely include nonce2 is if the Attester is signing which implies it = is creating Evidence.

[Wei] The Attester = sends messages to the RP, can it sign the whole message whose payload = contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a =E2=80=98Attestation = Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating Evidence when the = Attester is = signing?



The main = purpose of this diagram is to label points in time and time(e) is = defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose another letter if it = is not signing Evidence. 

I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80= =99s into the time values in EAT so we know if we have the necessary = claims defined in EAT to cover all the flows. 


If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, = then it=E2=80=99s about more than labeling points in time and should = start talking about formats and names for that Attester signing that is = not Evidence. Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. It = also begs the question of the signing keys get set up and distributed, = which is complicated stuff.

It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc = that in the Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation = Results through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should = be called Passport if there is additional signing in the = Attester.

 
By my = understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is convey the = exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t = incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way.
 
The only = way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to go along = side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. It = could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go through the = Verifier to the RP.

[Wei] I think this = is also a reasonable case that the Evidence should include nonce from = the RP and this may bring different considerations of timeliness.

 
Note = that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just one to = accommodate this.
 


 
 
And= for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and = Verifier.
For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s= draft (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the = PCR value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester.
   = .----------.          &n= bsp;          = .------------.      = .------------------------------------.
   | = Attester = |            &= nbsp;        | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           =       |      &= nbsp;            = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           &= nbsp;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;      =            | &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |<-----Attestation Result = 1-----time(i)          &= nbsp;    = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &n= bsp;        |   &nb= sp;            = ;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;       |
        |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
      = time(e=E2=80=99)  =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p; |           = ;        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Attestation = Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &n= bsp;      time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      = |
       =  |           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;         = |            &= nbsp;    time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, = sans-serif;" class=3D"">
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;       time(h)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;       time(h=E2=80=99)
 
The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments:
 
- Seems = like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If nonce2 = can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP to the = Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with much = less trouble.

[Wei] Same as the previous = one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a reasonable case that should be = considered.

Or maybe it is the job of = Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of Verifier 2 to impose the = policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe even Verifier 2 is a = machine learning system run by a 3rd party while Verifier 1 is a dumber = system that just knows about valid PCRs operated by the HW vendor.

[Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there = may be multiple Verifiers for different purposes.

 
- If = using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three claims: = nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, right? = Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT submods have = to allow for TPM format attestations.
[Wei] I think it=E2=80= =99s not appropriate to say Evidence contains Attestation Result, they = may be transited in the same message, but they are semantically = different. So the message sent by the Attester to the RP has three = claims, of which the first two being seen as Evidence and the last one = being seen as Attestation = Result.


Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an = Attestation Result as a claim in Evidence. It means that some other = Verifier did some of the work. The second Verifier would need some means = to trust the first Verifier. I think my example of the first Verifier = checking PCRs and HW measurements and the second one being an ML-based = system fits here. I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of = things in claims over the years, some wonderful, some = horrible.

But, maybe that is not = what is needed in this case, if you define the second signing to not be = Evidence.


Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) = to time (n) if it is not an Attester signing Evidence.


LL
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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 18:49:10 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Laurence Lundblade , "Panwei (William)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwADGMYAAAF6neAAC58LAABPHGY3AAJ4+XA= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 18:49:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [108.31.49.36] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 32d84af1-0d9d-4c12-f6b6-08d7c6b60d6f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB2994: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; 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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01D5F87D.5FC3B700"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 32d84af1-0d9d-4c12-f6b6-08d7c6b60d6f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Mar 2020 18:49:10.5305 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: q+m3OW+f4QcjvzNGBF+KLKq8SqY8Z+pG0/bgIaWW4fQOYCOvghdSyN+D4T+kI/Ow X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB2994 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 18:49:21 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01D5F87D.5FC3B700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0065_01D5F87D.5FC3B700" ------=_NextPart_001_0065_01D5F87D.5FC3B700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Laurence, =20 From: Laurence Lundblade, March 12, 2020 1:05 PM Hi Wei, =20 below... On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) > wrote: =20 =20 =20 Regards & Thanks! =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 = Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. =20 From: Laurence Lundblade [ = mailto:lgl@island-resort.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 AM To: Panwei (William) < = william.panwei@huawei.com> Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) < = evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; = rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions =20 =20 On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) < = william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote: =20 I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. =20 So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 .----------. .----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c=E2=80=99) |<-----nonce 2----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) time(e=E2=80=99) | | |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 =20 This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the = Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the definition of a = time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 = is if the Attester is signing which implies it is creating Evidence. [Wei] The Attester sends messages to the RP, can it sign the whole = message whose payload contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a = =E2=80=98Attestation Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating = Evidence when the Attester is signing? =20 =20 The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in time and time(e) = is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose another letter if = it is not signing Evidence.=20 time(e) may have a signing event. E.g., a nonce may be combined = evidence in a TPM proves the evidence was available on specific attester = no later that time(e). This possible action of signing has been = included within the originally proposed definition. =20 I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in = EAT so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover = all the flows.=20 =20 =20 If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then it=E2=80=99s about = more than labeling points in time and should start talking about formats = and names for that Attester signing that is not Evidence.=20 The original purpose of the thread was the proper naming of time = points. The sequence diagrams are shown to help demonstrate how the = times might be used. =20 =20 Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. It also begs the = question of the signing keys get set up and distributed, which is = complicated stuff. I absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. needs to be = addressed. This is why drafts like = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation and = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist. Such discussions are best = made in those deployment contexts, rather than in the architecture = draft. That is unless we are looking to significantly increase the = complexity of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. =20 =20 It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that in the = Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results through = without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be called = Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. In the case Wei is showing, the Attester would take the = signature from the Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') = and sign these within a TPM. This becomes a standalone element = delivered parallel with the original Attestation Results from time(i). =20 =20 If simply reusing "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS = Architecture document need to be updated to cover cases where the = passport is enhanced like above. Do we want to call this an "Extended = Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something else? =20 =20 By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is = convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It = can=E2=80=99t incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way. =20 The only way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to go = along side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. = It could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go through = the Verifier to the RP. [Wei] I think this is also a reasonable case that the Evidence should = include nonce from the RP and this may bring different considerations of = timeliness. =20 Note that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just = one to accommodate this. =20 =20 =20 And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. ..----------. ..------------. = ..------------------------------------. | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' time(a) | | = | time(b) | | = | | time(c) | = | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | time(e) | | = | |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | | time(g){@time(h)} | = | |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | | | | = | time(a=E2=80=99) | | = | time(b=E2=80=99) | | = | | | = time(c=E2=80=99) | |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) = | time(e=E2=80=99) | | = | |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) | | | = time(h) | | | = time(h=E2=80=99) =20 The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments: =20 - Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If = nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP = to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with = much less trouble. [Wei] Same as the previous one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a = reasonable case that should be considered. Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of = Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe = even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while = Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated = by the HW vendor. [Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there may be multiple = Verifiers for different purposes. =20 - If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three = claims: nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, = right? Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT = submods have to allow for TPM format attestations. [Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not appropriate to say Evidence contains = Attestation Result, they may be transited in the same message, but they = are semantically different. So the message sent by the Attester to the = RP has three claims, of which the first two being seen as Evidence and = the last one being seen as Attestation Result. =20 Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation Result as a claim = in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did some of the work. The = second Verifier would need some means to trust the first Verifier. I = think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs and HW measurements = and the second one being an ML-based system fits here. I suspect = we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims over the years, = some wonderful, some horrible. =20 But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if you define the = second signing to not be Evidence. I think it is Evidence =20 =20 Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to time (n) if it is = not an Attester signing Evidence. It is an Attester signing Evidence. Eric =20 =20 LL ------=_NextPart_001_0065_01D5F87D.5FC3B700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Laurence,

 

From: Laurence Lundblade, March 12, = 2020 1:05 PM

Hi = Wei,

 

below...



On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com&g= t; wrote:

 

 

 

Regards & = Thanks!

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan

=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89= =E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., = Ltd.

 

From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 = AM
To: Panwei = (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc:=  Eric Voit (evoit) = <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;=  rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing = Definitions

 

 




On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 = PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei= @huawei.com> = wrote:

 

I = think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the entity = of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case = the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that = entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and = the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results.

 

So, for a simple nonce-based = Passport Model, the Attester just sends Attestation Result produced by = the Verifier to the Relying Party, and the passport is simply the = Attestation Result. 

   = .----------.          &= nbsp;          = .----------.  .---------------.

   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

        |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d)&nbs= p;          |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c=E2=80=99)

        |<-----nonce 2-----------------------------= -----time(d=E2=80=99)

      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =    |

      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        time(h)

 

 

This still doesn=E2=80=99t = seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the Attester is signing and = creating Evidence because of the definition of a time id label (e). = Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 is if the Attester = is signing which implies it is creating = Evidence.

[Wei] The Attester sends = messages to the RP, can it sign the whole message whose payload contains = a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a =E2=80=98Attestation = Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating Evidence when the = Attester is signing?

 

 

The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in = time and time(e) is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose = another letter if it is not signing Evidence. 

<eric> time(e) may = have a signing event.=C2=A0 E.g., a nonce may be combined evidence in a = TPM proves the evidence was available on specific attester no later that = time(e).=C2=A0=C2=A0 This possible action of signing has been included = within the originally proposed = definition.

 

I = am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in EAT = so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover all = the flows. 

 

 

If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then = it=E2=80=99s about more than labeling points in time and should start = talking about formats and names for that Attester signing that is not = Evidence.

<eric> The original purpose of the thread = was the proper naming of time points.=C2=A0 The sequence diagrams are = shown to help demonstrate how the times might be used.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =

 

Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. = It also begs the question of the signing keys get set up and = distributed, which is complicated stuff.

<eric> I = absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. needs to be addressed.=C2=A0 = This is why drafts like draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation = and=C2=A0 draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such = discussions are best made in those deployment contexts, rather than in = the architecture draft.=C2=A0 That is unless we are looking to = significantly increase the complexity of = draft-ietf-rats-architecture.=C2=A0

 

It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture = doc that in the Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation = Results through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should = be called Passport if there is additional signing in the = Attester.

<eric>=C2=A0 In the case Wei is = showing,=C2=A0 the Attester would take the signature from the = Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') and sign these = within a TPM.=C2=A0 This becomes a standalone element delivered parallel = with the original Attestation Results from time(i).=C2=A0 =

 

If simply reusing = "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS Architecture = document need to be updated to cover cases where the passport is = enhanced like above.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do we want to call this an = "Extended Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport = Model", something else?=C2=A0=C2=A0 =



 

By = my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is convey = the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t = incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful = way.

 

The only way to use nonce2 = in the simple passport model is for it to go along side of nonce1 and = arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. It could go direct to the = Attester from the RP or it could go through the Verifier to the = RP.

[Wei] I think this is also a = reasonable case that the Evidence should include nonce from the RP and = this may bring different considerations of timeliness.

 

Note that the latest EAT = draft has an array of nonces rather than just one to accommodate = this.

 




 

 

And for a complex model, which = is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the Attester will produce another = Evidence to be sent together with the Attestation Result to the entity = of Relying Party and Verifier.

For example, in the case of = Eric=E2=80=99s draft (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 = is about the PCR value information, Attestation Result 1 says = =E2=80=98boot processes have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, = Evidence 2 is about time and changes since the Attester was last = verified, Attestation Result 2 says =E2=80=99time and changes are = acceptable because only 5 minutes have passed since last verification = and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then the Relying Party consumes these = two Attestation Results to establish trust on the Attester.

   = ..----------.          =            = ..------------.      = ..------------------------------------.

   | Attester = |            =          | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =        = |            =           |

      = time(b)           =             =       |      =              = |            =           |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           =     = |            =           |

        |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        = ;       = |            =           |

      = time(e)           =        =            | =             &= nbsp;     = |            =           |

        |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        = ;       = |            =           |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            =           |

        |<-----Attestation = Result = 1-----time(i)          =      = |            =           |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =           |

      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =        = |            =           |

      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &= nbsp;        |   &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   = |            =           |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;       |

        |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   =             &= nbsp; |

      = time(e=E2=80=99)  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; |          &n= bsp;        = |            =           |

        |------Attestation = Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &= nbsp;      time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      = |

       =  |           =             &= nbsp;         = |            =      time(i')-----AR = 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =         time(h)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =         time(h=E2=80=99)

 

The flow seems technically = correct, but a few comments:

 

- = Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If = nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP = to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with = much less trouble.

[Wei] Same as the previous = one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a reasonable case that should be = considered.

Or maybe it is the job of = Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of Verifier 2 to impose the = policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe even Verifier 2 is a = machine learning system run by a 3rd party while Verifier 1 is a dumber = system that just knows about valid PCRs operated by the HW = vendor.

[Wei] Yes, between the = Attester and the RP there may be multiple Verifiers for different = purposes.

 

- = If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three claims: = nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, right? = Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT submods have = to allow for TPM format attestations.

[Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not = appropriate to say Evidence contains Attestation Result, they may be = transited in the same message, but they are semantically different. So = the message sent by the Attester to the RP has three claims, of which = the first two being seen as Evidence and the last one being seen as = Attestation Result.

 

Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation = Result as a claim in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did = some of the work. The second Verifier would need some means to trust the = first Verifier. I think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs = and HW measurements and the second one being an ML-based system fits = here. I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims = over the years, some wonderful, some = horrible.

 

But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if = you define the second signing to not be Evidence.

<eric> I think it = is Evidence

 

 

Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to = time (n) if it is not an Attester signing Evidence.

<eric> It is an = Attester signing Evidence.


Eric

 

 

LL

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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qW65b6dg4fXi for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 523533A0913 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id CWWGjmA9ykEGdCWWGjHETj; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:41:36 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=b6nMHeOx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=i0EeH86SAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=X0oUTWqLaGT5tGQ7ADcA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=zDh1Rca2SS7xkItnl24A:9 a=zy3aI5BceQOd7FCn:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <19331E26-5F18-4F37-AD4D-FEEB895B80A7@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44021690-5C5F-4544-A352-7B9D81EDBA2C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:41:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Panwei (William)" , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOZ6nnjE4uK/uejyDZySrel5fK5/gjHpMTegGPma7jS+to7isbz+ahUZxsztsFo4+eGFWW/EiHEdyYQB47XRseJRj/HO2931WdzRSi2FFZsytMwHXEfA sapa6YZM78QysUElmiklCQSD6g2ZIL6tZRh1zmc5hOkiYhmEQj05g++/Jt1FcWDGsZTNAfqFniaDBDw8q1eCVp47QNkDwFBlSc+KiXAYPpLpSW/WCSfGPLoi NpCDwkFTX95MYD29PHkFZg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:41:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_44021690-5C5F-4544-A352-7B9D81EDBA2C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Then the net net is that this diagram needs fixing: ..----------. ..----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c=E2=80=99) |<-----nonce 2----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) time(e=E2=80=99) | | |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 Option 1) fix: change time(e=E2=80=99) to time(n) if what=E2=80=99s = being signed at that time is NOT evidence Option 2) fix: leave it as time(e=E2=80=99) and change the diagram so = what is being signed IS evidence. This will involve adding a Verifier = and such making it look a lot like the other diagram. My main objective here is to understand what needs to go into EAT so it = can represent Attestation Results well. I also care about the = architecture document. The details of trusted path I leave in your = hands. :-) LL > On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:49 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Laurence, > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade, March 12, 2020 1:05 PM >=20 > Hi Wei, > =20 > below... >=20 >=20 > On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) = > wrote: > =20 > =20 > =20 > Regards & Thanks! > =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan > =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8= Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 AM > To: Panwei (William) > > Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) >; rats@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) = > wrote: > =20 > I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. > =20 > So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 > ..----------. ..----------. .---------------. > | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | ...= --Apple-Mail=_44021690-5C5F-4544-A352-7B9D81EDBA2C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Then the net net is that this diagram needs = fixing:

  =  ..----------.         &= nbsp;           = ..----------.  .---------------.
   = | Attester |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           = |
        = |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d)&nb= sp;          |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &n= bsp;     |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      time(g){@time(h)} |
        = |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         =   |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |             = time(c=E2=80=99)
        = |<-----nonce 2----------------------------= ------time(d=E2=80=99)
      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;  |
      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  =       |      &= nbsp;      time(h)
 

Option 1) fix: = change time(e=E2=80=99) to time(n) if what=E2=80=99s being signed at = that time is NOT evidence

Option 2) fix: leave it as time(e=E2=80=99) and change the = diagram so what is being signed IS evidence. This will involve adding a = Verifier and such making it look a lot like the other diagram.


My main objective here is to understand what needs to go into = EAT so it can represent Attestation Results well. I also care about the = architecture document. The details of trusted path I leave in your = hands. :-)

LL




On Mar = 12, 2020, at 11:49 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Laurence,
 
From: Laurence Lundblade, March = 12, 2020 1:05 PM

Hi = Wei,
 
below...


On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 = PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:
 
 
 
Regards & Thanks!
=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan
=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC= =E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
 
From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 = 1:33 AM
To: Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc: Eric = Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation = Timing Definitions
 
 



On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei = (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:
 
I = think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the entity = of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case = the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that = entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and = the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results.
 
So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the = Attester just sends Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the = Relying Party, and the passport is simply the Attestation Result. 
   = ..----------.          &= nbsp;          = ..----------.  .---------------.
   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
<= /blockquote>
...= --Apple-Mail=_44021690-5C5F-4544-A352-7B9D81EDBA2C-- From nobody Fri Mar 13 11:12:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2169B3A079D for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:11:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adZKvKFX_D0Q for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga18.intel.com (mga18.intel.com [134.134.136.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65713A07D3 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga004.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.38]) by orsmga106.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Mar 2020 11:11:45 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,549,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="389994130" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by orsmga004.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2020 11:11:45 -0700 Received: from orsmsx156.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.22) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:11:45 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.100]) by ORSMSX156.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:10:40 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Laurence Lundblade , "Panwei (William)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwARw94AAAJHYYAACtJHAAAdy08AABKNAAAAHsC7gAADo3gAACJHJYA= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:10:39 +0000 Message-ID: <666BE797-9C1A-4D04-BD4A-7359C39FC903@intel.com> References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.251.2.54] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_666BE7979C1A4D04BD4A7359C39FC903intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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14.3.439.0; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:21:05 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.100]) by ORSMSX156.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:21:04 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , "Panwei (William)" , "rats@ietf.org" , "Eric Voit (evoit)" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions Thread-Index: AdX3Ey664zQelNNbRnODHHrrt7v6IwARw94AAAJHYYAACtJHAAAdy08AABKNAAAAHsC7gAAmR5mA Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:21:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.251.2.54] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B18691B27ABD4E9782040E6D366721E6intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:21:13 -0000 --_000_B18691B27ABD4E9782040E6D366721E6intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2VlIGlubGluZS4gTm1zPg0KDQpGcm9tOiBSQVRTIDxyYXRzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IG9u IGJlaGFsZiBvZiBMYXVyZW5jZSBMdW5kYmxhZGUgPGxnbEBpc2xhbmQtcmVzb3J0LmNvbT4NCkRh dGU6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAxMiwgMjAyMCBhdCAxMDowNSBBTQ0KT24gTWFyIDEwLCAyMDIw LCBhdCA4OjIwIFBNLCBQYW53ZWkgKFdpbGxpYW0pIDx3aWxsaWFtLnBhbndlaUBodWF3ZWkuY29t PG1haWx0bzp3aWxsaWFtLnBhbndlaUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPj4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgTmVk 4oCZcyBlbWFpbCBhbHNvIGhhcyBkZXRhaWxlZGx5IGV4cGxhaW5lZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBlbnRpdHkg 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Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0343_01D5F95D.8D38C3C0"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b2bafc8b-4ceb-4f44-cac7-08d7c7963cba X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Mar 2020 21:33:57.1972 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +92XCVG1YU0vb4HxIxrkp0PS1lLn7yfRiyF7l7D0J3TAAmP+J+Qg7sT47jWlU38T X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3268 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 21:34:26 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0343_01D5F95D.8D38C3C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0344_01D5F95D.8D38C3C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0344_01D5F95D.8D38C3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, =20 I fully agree that there are similarities between "Stamped Passport = Model" and "Composite Device". For both, a Verifier needs to understand = the implicit trust relationships between the various signed claims. =20 The way I internalize your thinking below is that we need glue that can = express relationships between independently signed claims. And beyond = the 'transited Attestation Result' claim, I also believe there will be a = 'sequence of claim creation' (i.e., a 'provable relative timing') claim. =20 Thinking of some possible future RATS drafts, I suspect that some claim = language could be adopted to express these compositions. With such a = claim language, even structures paralleling those of DICE are = conceivable. Also conceivable are needs for the trusted discovery of = valid Attester + Verifier structures by Relying Parties. =20 =20 In the short term, I don't think these complexities need to be included = in the architecture document. To make progress, I am simply asking that = the terminology of the architecture document doesn't marginalize or make = harder to describe the types of end-to-end architectures being explored = with "Composite Device" and "Stamped Passport". =20 Per your note below on codifying the term "Passport". You are right = that the architecture now just describes the "Passport Model". As long = as somebody doesn't later try to define a "Passport", and then claim = that a "Stamped Passport" is not really a valid type of "Passport", I = am good. =20 Eric =20 =20 From: Smith, Ned, March 13, 2020 2:11 PM The =E2=80=9CExtended|stamped Passport Model=E2=80=9D is a similar = pattern to the =E2=80=9CComposite Device=E2=80=9D scenario where = Evidence isn=E2=80=99t simply forwarded by a lead Attester but the lead = Attester supplies a =E2=80=98transited evidence=E2=80=99 claim as part = of the additional Evidence it supplies.=20 =20 I=E2=80=99m not sure RATS arch intended for the various = =E2=80=98models=E2=80=99 to codify data structures e.g. a = =E2=80=98Passport=E2=80=99 or if the intent is merely to observe the = flow of Evidence and Attestation Results according to the named model. = Maybe there is a similar need for a special type of claim that = reinforces an expected flow or sequencing between roles? If in the = Passport Model the Verifier supplies Attestation Results to the Entity = that hosts the originating Attester role, then should the Verifier or = Attester do something in the Attestation Results or in newly minted = Evidence to acknowledge this?=20 =20 For example, the Attester could create new Evidence with a = =E2=80=98transited attestation result=E2=80=99 claim. The entity hosting = the Relying Party might then host a Verifier role that specializes in = checking for Passport Model compliance by verifying the = =E2=80=98transited Attestation Results=E2=80=99 claim. Possibly, the = Relying Party has a policy that allows/disallows use of a Passport model = (or a hybrid). Simply defining a =E2=80=98transited attestation = results=E2=80=99 claim seems to address all possible models whether = Passport, Background Check or some hybrid we haven=E2=80=99t though of = yet.=20 =20 Does anyone disagree? =20 -Ned =20 Copied text from below: =E2=80=9CIt seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that = in the Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results = through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be = called Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. In the case Wei is showing, the Attester would take the = signature from the Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') = and sign these within a TPM. This becomes a standalone element = delivered parallel with the original Attestation Results from time(i). =20 =20 If simply reusing "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS = Architecture document need to be updated to cover cases where the = passport is enhanced like above. Do we want to call this an "Extended = Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something else? =E2=80=9C =20 =20 From: RATS > on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 11:49 AM To: Laurence Lundblade >, "Panwei (William)" = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions =20 Hi Laurence, =20 From: Laurence Lundblade, March 12, 2020 1:05 PM Hi Wei, =20 below... On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) > wrote: =20 =20 =20 Regards & Thanks! =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 = Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. =20 From: Laurence Lundblade [ = mailto:lgl@island-resort.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 AM To: Panwei (William) < = william.panwei@huawei.com> Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) < = evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; = rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions =20 =20 On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) < = william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote: =20 I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. =20 So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 ..----------. ..----------. .---------------. | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | '----------' '----------' '---------------' time(a) | | time(b) | | | time(c) | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | time(e) | | |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | | time(g){@time(h)} | |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | | | time(c=E2=80=99) |<-----nonce 2----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) time(e=E2=80=99) | | |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) | | time(h) =20 =20 This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the = Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the definition of a = time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 = is if the Attester is signing which implies it is creating Evidence. [Wei] The Attester sends messages to the RP, can it sign the whole = message whose payload contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a = =E2=80=98Attestation Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating = Evidence when the Attester is signing? =20 =20 The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in time and time(e) = is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose another letter if = it is not signing Evidence.=20 time(e) may have a signing event. E.g., a nonce may be combined = evidence in a TPM proves the evidence was available on specific attester = no later that time(e). This possible action of signing has been = included within the originally proposed definition. =20 I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in = EAT so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover = all the flows.=20 =20 =20 If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then it=E2=80=99s about = more than labeling points in time and should start talking about formats = and names for that Attester signing that is not Evidence.=20 The original purpose of the thread was the proper naming of time = points. The sequence diagrams are shown to help demonstrate how the = times might be used. =20 =20 Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. It also begs the = question of the signing keys get set up and distributed, which is = complicated stuff. I absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. needs to be = addressed. This is why drafts like = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation and = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist. Such discussions are best = made in those deployment contexts, rather than in the architecture = draft. That is unless we are looking to significantly increase the = complexity of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. =20 =20 It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that in the = Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results through = without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be called = Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. In the case Wei is showing, the Attester would take the = signature from the Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') = and sign these within a TPM. This becomes a standalone element = delivered parallel with the original Attestation Results from time(i). =20 =20 If simply reusing "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS = Architecture document need to be updated to cover cases where the = passport is enhanced like above. Do we want to call this an "Extended = Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something else? =20 =20 By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is = convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It = can=E2=80=99t incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way. =20 The only way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to go = along side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. = It could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go through = the Verifier to the RP. [Wei] I think this is also a reasonable case that the Evidence should = include nonce from the RP and this may bring different considerations of = timeliness. =20 Note that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just = one to accommodate this. =20 =20 =20 And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. ...----------. ...------------. = ...------------------------------------. | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' time(a) | | = | time(b) | | = | | time(c) | = | |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | time(e) | | = | |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | | time(g){@time(h)} | = | |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | | | | = | time(a=E2=80=99) | | = | time(b=E2=80=99) | | = | | | = time(c=E2=80=99) | |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99) = | time(e=E2=80=99) | | = | |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) | | | = time(h) | | | = time(h=E2=80=99) =20 The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments: =20 - Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If = nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP = to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with = much less trouble. [Wei] Same as the previous one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a = reasonable case that should be considered. Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of = Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe = even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while = Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated = by the HW vendor. [Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there may be multiple = Verifiers for different purposes. =20 - If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three = claims: nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, = right? Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT = submods have to allow for TPM format attestations. [Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not appropriate to say Evidence contains = Attestation Result, they may be transited in the same message, but they = are semantically different. So the message sent by the Attester to the = RP has three claims, of which the first two being seen as Evidence and = the last one being seen as Attestation Result. =20 Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation Result as a claim = in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did some of the work. The = second Verifier would need some means to trust the first Verifier. I = think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs and HW measurements = and the second one being an ML-based system fits here. I suspect = we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims over the years, = some wonderful, some horrible. =20 But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if you define the = second signing to not be Evidence. I think it is Evidence =20 =20 Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to time (n) if it is = not an Attester signing Evidence. It is an Attester signing Evidence. Eric =20 =20 LL ------=_NextPart_001_0344_01D5F95D.8D38C3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Ned,

 

I fully agree that there are similarities between = "Stamped Passport Model" and "Composite = Device".=C2=A0 For both, a Verifier needs to understand the = implicit trust relationships between the various signed = claims.

 

The way I internalize your thinking below is that we = need glue that can express relationships between independently signed = claims.=C2=A0 And beyond the 'transited Attestation Result' claim, I = also believe there will be a 'sequence of claim creation' (i.e., a = 'provable relative timing') claim.

 

Thinking of = some possible future RATS drafts, I suspect that some claim language = could be adopted to express these compositions.=C2=A0 With such a claim = language, even structures paralleling those of DICE are = conceivable.=C2=A0 Also conceivable are needs for the trusted discovery = of valid Attester + Verifier structures by Relying Parties.=C2=A0 =

 

In the short term, I don't think these complexities = need to be included in the architecture document.=C2=A0 To make = progress, I am simply asking that the terminology of the architecture = document doesn't marginalize or make harder to describe the types of = end-to-end architectures being explored with "Composite = Device" and "Stamped Passport".

 

Per your = note below on codifying the term "Passport".=C2=A0 You are = right that the architecture now just describes the "Passport = Model".=C2=A0=C2=A0 As long as somebody doesn't later try to define = a "Passport", and then claim that a "Stamped = Passport" is not really a =C2=A0valid type of "Passport", = I am good.

 

Eric

 

 

From: Smith, Ned, March 13, 2020 2:11 = PM

The = =E2=80=9CExtended|stamped Passport Model=E2=80=9D is a similar pattern = to the =E2=80=9CComposite Device=E2=80=9D scenario where Evidence = isn=E2=80=99t simply forwarded by a lead Attester but the lead Attester = supplies a =E2=80=98transited evidence=E2=80=99 claim as part of the = additional Evidence it supplies.

 

I=E2=80=99m not sure RATS = arch intended for the various =E2=80=98models=E2=80=99 to codify data = structures e.g. a =E2=80=98Passport=E2=80=99 or if the intent is merely = to observe the flow of Evidence and Attestation Results according to the = named model. Maybe there is a similar need for a special type of claim = that reinforces an expected flow or sequencing between roles? If in the = Passport Model the Verifier supplies Attestation Results to the Entity = that hosts the originating Attester role, then should the Verifier or = Attester do something in the Attestation Results or in newly minted = Evidence to acknowledge this?

 

For example, the Attester = could create new Evidence with a =E2=80=98transited attestation = result=E2=80=99 claim. The entity hosting the Relying Party might then = host a Verifier role that specializes in checking for Passport Model = compliance by verifying the =E2=80=98transited Attestation = Results=E2=80=99 claim.  Possibly, the Relying Party has a policy = that allows/disallows use of a Passport model (or a hybrid). Simply = defining a =E2=80=98transited attestation results=E2=80=99 claim seems = to address all possible models whether Passport, Background Check or = some hybrid we haven=E2=80=99t though of yet.

 

Does anyone = disagree?

 

-Ned

 

Copied text from = below:

=E2=80=9CIt seems pretty clear to me in the Rats = architecture doc that in the Passport model that the Attester just = passes Attestation Results through without further signing. I = don=E2=80=99t think it should be called Passport if there is additional = signing in the Attester.

<eric>  In the case Wei is = showing,  the Attester would take the signature from the = Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') and sign these = within a TPM.  This becomes a standalone element delivered parallel = with the original Attestation Results from = time(i).  

 

If simply reusing "Passport" is = confusing, the wording in the RATS Architecture document need to be = updated to cover cases where the passport is enhanced like = above.   Do we want to call this an "Extended Passport = Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something = else?  =E2=80=9C

 

 

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org>
Date: Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 11:49 = AM
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, = "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com&g= t;
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing = Definitions

 

Hi Laurence,

 

From: = Laurence Lundblade, March 12, 2020 1:05 PM

Hi Wei,

 

below...



On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com&g= t; wrote:

 

 

 

Regards & = Thanks!

=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei = Pan

=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89= =E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., = Ltd.

 

From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 = AM
To: Panwei = (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc:=  Eric Voit (evoit) = <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;=  rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing = Definitions

 

 




On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 = PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei= @huawei.com> = wrote:

 

I = think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the entity = of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case = the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that = entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and = the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation = Results.

 

So, = for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result. 

   = ..----------.          =            = ..----------.  = .---------------.

   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '----------'  = '---------------'

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

      = time(b)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           = |

        |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d)&nbs= p;          = |

      = time(e)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =    |

        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &= nbsp;     = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      time(g){@time(h)} = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         = ;  |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            = time(c=E2=80=99)

        |<-----nonce 2-----------------------------= -----time(d=E2=80=99)

      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =    |

      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)

=

        = |            =             &= nbsp;  =       |      =        = time(h)

 

 

This still doesn=E2=80=99t = seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the Attester is signing and = creating Evidence because of the definition of a time id label (e). = Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 is if the Attester = is signing which implies it is creating = Evidence.

[Wei] The Attester sends = messages to the RP, can it sign the whole message whose payload contains = a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a =E2=80=98Attestation = Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating Evidence when the = Attester is = signing?

 

 

The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in = time and time(e) is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose = another letter if it is not signing Evidence. 

<eric> time(e) may = have a signing event.  E.g., a nonce may be combined evidence in a = TPM proves the evidence was available on specific attester no later that = time(e).   This possible action of signing has been included = within the originally proposed = definition.

 

I = am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in EAT = so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover all = the flows. 

 

 

If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then = it=E2=80=99s about more than labeling points in time and should start = talking about formats and names for that Attester signing that is not = Evidence.

<eric> The original purpose of the thread = was the proper naming of time points.  The sequence diagrams are = shown to help demonstrate how the times might be used.    =

 

Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. = It also begs the question of the signing keys get set up and = distributed, which is complicated stuff.

<eric> I = absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. needs to be addressed.  = This is why drafts like draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation = and  draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist.   Such = discussions are best made in those deployment contexts, rather than in = the architecture draft.  That is unless we are looking to = significantly increase the complexity of = draft-ietf-rats-architecture. 

 

It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture = doc that in the Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation = Results through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should = be called Passport if there is additional signing in the = Attester.

<eric>  In the case Wei is = showing,  the Attester would take the signature from the = Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') and sign these = within a TPM.  This becomes a standalone element delivered parallel = with the original Attestation Results from time(i).  =

 

If simply reusing = "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS Architecture = document need to be updated to cover cases where the passport is = enhanced like above.   Do we want to call this an = "Extended Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport = Model", something else?   =



 

By = my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is convey = the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t = incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful = way.

 

The only way to use nonce2 = in the simple passport model is for it to go along side of nonce1 and = arrive before time(e) to be part of Evidence. It could go direct to the = Attester from the RP or it could go through the Verifier to the = RP.

[Wei] I think this is also a = reasonable case that the Evidence should include nonce from the RP and = this may bring different considerations of = timeliness.

 

Note that the latest EAT = draft has an array of nonces rather than just one to accommodate = this.

 




 

 

And = for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the Attester = will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the Attestation = Result to the entity of Relying Party and = Verifier.

For example, in the case of = Eric=E2=80=99s draft (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 = is about the PCR value information, Attestation Result 1 says = =E2=80=98boot processes have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, = Evidence 2 is about time and changes since the Attester was last = verified, Attestation Result 2 says =E2=80=99time and changes are = acceptable because only 5 minutes have passed since last verification = and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then the Relying Party consumes these = two Attestation Results to establish trust on the = Attester.

   = ...----------.          = ;           = ...------------.      = ...------------------------------------.

   | Attester = |            =          | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party = |

   = '----------'          &= nbsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'

<= div>

      = time(a)           =             &= nbsp;     = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(b)           =             =       |      =              = |            =           = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(c)           =     = |            =           = |

        |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        = ;       = |            =           = |

      = time(e)           =        =            | =             &= nbsp;     = |            =           = |

        |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        = ;       = |            =           = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            =           = |

        |<-----Attestation = Result = 1-----time(i)          =      = |            =           = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;      = |            =        = |            =           = |

      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &= nbsp;        |   &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   = |            =           = |

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nb= sp;       = |

        |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   =             &= nbsp; |

      = time(e=E2=80=99)  =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; |          &n= bsp;        = |            =           = |

        |------Attestation = Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &= nbsp;      = time(l)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =      = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      = |

       =  |           =             &= nbsp;         = |            =      time(i')-----AR = 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =         = time(h)

        = |            =             &= nbsp;        = |            =        = |            =      =    time(h=E2=80=99)

 

The flow seems technically = correct, but a few comments:

 

- = Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. If = nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the RP = to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) with = much less trouble.

[Wei] Same as the previous = one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a reasonable case that should be = considered.

Or = maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of = Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe = even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while = Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated = by the HW vendor.

[Wei] Yes, between the = Attester and the RP there may be multiple Verifiers for different = purposes.

 

- = If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three claims: = nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, right? = Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT submods have = to allow for TPM format attestations.

[Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not = appropriate to say Evidence contains Attestation Result, they may be = transited in the same message, but they are semantically different. So = the message sent by the Attester to the RP has three claims, of which = the first two being seen as Evidence and the last one being seen as = Attestation = Result.

 

Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation = Result as a claim in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did = some of the work. The second Verifier would need some means to trust the = first Verifier. I think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs = and HW measurements and the second one being an ML-based system fits = here. I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims = over the years, some wonderful, some = horrible.

 

But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if = you define the second signing to not be Evidence.

<eric> I think it = is Evidence

 

 

Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to = time (n) if it is not an Attester signing Evidence.

<eric> It is an = Attester signing Evidence.


Eric

 

 

LL

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[134.102.157.64] (134.102.157.64) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:04:52 +0100 To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "rats@ietf.org" , "rats-chairs@ietf.org" References: <7C76D07E-CC63-4DE3-8166-6A4273EE67F0@cisco.com> From: Henk Birkholz CC: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <20604bda-dbfb-6b1c-0cda-aa2495838e6f@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:04:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7C76D07E-CC63-4DE3-8166-6A4273EE67F0@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.157.64] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] IETF 107 RATs request for agenda time X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:05:26 -0000 Hi all, hi chairs, I'd like to issue the following request for a virtual RATS IETF meeting: 1.) Block - Michael rats-architeture (15 min incl. discussion) 2.) Block - Henk rats-mud (5min) rats-coswid-rim (5min) rats-endorsement-eat (5min) rats-uccs (5min) discussion of the above in total (10min) 3.) Block - Henk rats-interation-model (5min) rats-yang-charra (5min) discussion of the above in total (5min) Viele Grüße, Henk On 02.03.20 19:51, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > Hello RATs participants, > > Please provide your requests for agenda and time you’ll need for the > presentation/discussion. > > Thanks, Nancy > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Mon Mar 16 11:53:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77B63A0F1B for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pv4nulj3AYll for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CF873A0F18 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id DurUjdTSvgX5ODurUjBQBM; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:53:16 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=H/ulPNQi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=cnZNP4g5Stxf-0qPJTQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10 a=87wBFoEDDjxiEF16-ggA:9 a=UKKah2g0S-GRVYQZ:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_47439B2D-6073-4F8B-B5C8-919E9F267AE5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:53:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20604bda-dbfb-6b1c-0cda-aa2495838e6f@sit.fraunhofer.de> Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "rats@ietf.org" , "rats-chairs@ietf.org" , Michael Richardson To: Henk Birkholz References: <7C76D07E-CC63-4DE3-8166-6A4273EE67F0@cisco.com> <20604bda-dbfb-6b1c-0cda-aa2495838e6f@sit.fraunhofer.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNX2W6EinZHcUE3Rd6Y1oVe2GX6A8l/w4sGuG4QOXutm+0Y0onhhDRR9z4HBHwv51koJo49sD1SlmZdwGp8iV94PN2/4hfefi4hayhxVYOao/W5Ycd67 S4aHt8rfKcaBPvlyiYVaBYhFcwXpv6WEBfXObswC/oZldksWm29Yi6GghOEzSOnV/sF+cyWZGUorVfM7HRsWMNmwcPGEHYFoRihz1zw9QT+OMZ/6nw0srxXD ezhG58flxqzJ8iTe1AZKRCp/lbtncIUuUAn1kHGE43JYukeJh8ddgU4oBAZ4iaxaTbzZFHuE4dbrZ9xgSg7tDQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] IETF 107 RATs request for agenda time X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:53:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_47439B2D-6073-4F8B-B5C8-919E9F267AE5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99d like: - Time stamps, expiration and related in EAT; relates to diagrams = from Wei and Eric: 20 min (main priority) - Claims characteristics and IANA: 15 min (if no resolution on = email) Also, need clarification on dates and times. There=E2=80=99s nothing = here . The last message = from Nancy did not give the timezone. LL > On Mar 16, 2020, at 5:04 AM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, > hi chairs, >=20 > I'd like to issue the following request for a virtual RATS IETF = meeting: >=20 > 1.) Block - Michael > rats-architeture (15 min incl. discussion) >=20 > 2.) Block - Henk > rats-mud (5min) > rats-coswid-rim (5min) > rats-endorsement-eat (5min) > rats-uccs (5min) > discussion of the above in total (10min) >=20 > 3.) Block - Henk > rats-interation-model (5min) > rats-yang-charra (5min) > discussion of the above in total (5min) >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 >=20 > On 02.03.20 19:51, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >> Hello RATs participants, >> Please provide your requests for agenda and time you=E2=80=99ll need = for the presentation/discussion. >> Thanks, Nancy >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_47439B2D-6073-4F8B-B5C8-919E9F267AE5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80= =99d like:
    - Time stamps, expiration and = related in EAT; relates to diagrams from Wei and Eric: 20 min (main = priority)
    - Claims characteristics = and IANA: 15 min (if no resolution on email)

Also, need clarification on dates and = times. There=E2=80=99s nothing here. The last message from Nancy did not give the = timezone.

LL


On Mar = 16, 2020, at 5:04 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

Hi = all,
hi chairs,

I'd like to = issue the following request for a virtual RATS IETF meeting:

1.) Block - Michael
rats-architeture (15 min incl. discussion)

2.) Block - Henk
rats-mud (5min)
rats-coswid-rim (5min)
rats-endorsement-eat = (5min)
rats-uccs (5min)
discussion of the = above in total (10min)

3.) Block - Henk
rats-interation-model (5min)
rats-yang-charra = (5min)
discussion of the above in total (5min)

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


On 02.03.20 = 19:51, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:
Hello RATs participants,
Please = provide your requests for agenda and time you=E2=80=99ll need for the = presentation/discussion.
Thanks, Nancy
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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--_000_2133389D63344D33A24C68E5F1970993ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 09:14:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30923A180A for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dsif5WX-4a8e for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338763A1814 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355CA3897B; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2959E68; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:14:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Nancy Cam-Winget \(ncamwing\)" , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <2133389D-6334-4D33-A24C-68E5F1970993@cisco.com> References: <2133389D-6334-4D33-A24C-68E5F1970993@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATs Virtual sessions assigned X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:14:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nancy Cam-Winget \(ncamwing\) wrote: > 1. Agenda Bash (5min) > 2. Architecture =E2=80=93 Michael (15min) > * > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 The discussion among the Architecture Design team is that we think that we should do a six slide (diagram) walkthrough/tutorial on the architecture. This is as much for posterity as it to make sure that the entire group is caught up on our work. We think that 15 minutes would work, but we'll need 10 minutes for discussi= on/questions. The topic of timestamps and timing is part of that discussion/tutorial, btw. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5ySOAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVjUAf/eUeZx04KgSxXKZMEq8tZmuFgjgclH4l1R5/4EXP2G6XEpVwCp1/RAMX0 aRQ96liuxYGCO4asMh5b7bAjtrPANk7ibm8u3MZW6vcOEU047wlPAnHE8KOxNFPR oA2POnG8rY2rW7yvwXEnKkGC4FEKqjeU8DSVLZizdsjY1wpI5m6/ZxeZ5LBuZySA a5ypMhbed8AqCnVYCdkDcoacAI2sBaZasTMuewC+SKnGf0iqq8+lgcWU7a2APznC oQN4aWr57/MdHupATzj401trs1ucRUAV/fkLkkMKcVjkBKtMkIMHGrnU2LcnMzfR 3MJA7EPqCr4ZXnSnQKq4zeosQ0EeCw== =AhRE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 09:25:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231B33A1884 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4zuzofURs1A for ; 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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:25:17 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.123.239) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:25:12 +0100 To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "rats@ietf.org" CC: Roman Danyliw References: <2133389D-6334-4D33-A24C-68E5F1970993@cisco.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <774f56de-1c47-c7df-7817-f10a943fc37a@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:25:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2133389D-6334-4D33-A24C-68E5F1970993@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.123.239] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATs Virtual sessions assigned X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:25:37 -0000 Hi all, splitting block 3 (yang module & interaction model) will not work well, as the CHARRA YANG module depends on the Interaction model (that is now also associated via BPD205 with the CHARRA CoAP/CBOR PoC). Please merge 7. & 7. again :-) Viele Grüße, Henk On 18.03.20 00:45, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > Hello RATs participants, > > We are NOT able to hold any sessions next week, however we have been > assigned Mar 31 and Apr 28 as the two days in which we can meet. > > From previous feedback (and on the TEEP list), it seems that a 2 (maybw > 2:30?) hour block over 2 days is preferred, so I’ve set up 2hr block > options based on chair availability on the doodle: > > Mar 31 Doodle poll: https://doodle.com/poll/25w7xe883cqwua8d > > Apr 28 Doodle poll: https://doodle.com/poll/pgsbh5dtbkuqtppe > > THAT said, given current agenda requests, we can fill 125mins, which I > am also currently in the process of splitting it to +/- an hour for each > session giving us a bigger buffer for discussion especially on new > drafts.  The current proposed agenda: > > Mar 31: > > 1. Agenda Bash (5min) > 2. Architecture – Michael (15min) > * https://tools.ietf.org/html/ > draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 > > 3. EAT Claim characteristics and IANA – Laurence (15min) > 4. EAT timestamps and expiration discussion - Laurence (20min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat > / > > 5. RATS Timing definitions across use cases – Eric Voit (5min) > 6. Trusted Path Routing – Eric (5 min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing > / > > 7. CHARRA Update – Henk (10min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra/ > > Apr 28: > > 1. Agenda Bash (5min) > 2. Network Device Attestation - Guy (20min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation > / > > 3. RATs with MUD – Henk (10min) > * https > ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-mud > / > > 4. COSWID for RATs – Henk (10min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-coswid-rim/ > 5. EAT Endorsement – Henk (10min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat/ > 6. RATs Unprotected CWT Tokens – Henk (10min) > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/ > 7. Interaction Model – Henk (10) > > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/ > > Let us (rats-chairs@ietf.org ) if there are > other agenda items to be added or if you need a different slot than the > one assigned above. > > Thanks, Nancy > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Mar 18 09:45:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131E43A1883 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584640936; bh=dqbiDJxkY7ilBydP6mPOE89Dx01T6Iy7MzeSJ4xbenQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=rHT2L+DYOLqlCGWDmutFzOto9XdOi6+Z9Q0nnQwjXShDhAzgTmG8hurKr7XNrrgjD uYW+e39ITtk/iBo461QwZUgSyXPMUyYigfirMW01NPyxEfbdMyNKbUp9ZQ7Mi1YPgT S+4pcxZEvntrQd116aaX4zR4WYfIe2hizlflSYQA= From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 8c9a3e: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:02:23 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/update_debug_claim Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 8c9a3eaa2273979da0e247c58a04d093d2780016 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/8c9a3eaa2273979da0e247c58a04d093d2780016 Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-08-12 (Mon, 12 Aug 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Security Considerations First cut Commit: f47a8b49b49763f5cd6887e48bb22bc521175471 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/f47a8b49b49763f5cd6887e48bb22bc521175471 Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-10-16 (Wed, 16 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Commit: c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- revamp of submods and nested tokens Commit: 5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Revert "revamp of submods and nested tokens". It should be a PR, not a direct commit. This reverts commit c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941. Commit: 2a051f45f07398de86a5731ff124c20a52ce1e09 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2a051f45f07398de86a5731ff124c20a52ce1e09 Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-11-14 (Thu, 14 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati Commit: b1be67930ffd4c74f75d7e72ee0508e09126753e https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b1be67930ffd4c74f75d7e72ee0508e09126753e Author: gmandyam Date: 2019-11-17 (Sun, 17 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Commit: bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab Author: Henk Birkholz Date: 2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- first attempt at fixing the CirclCI issues (and apparently xml2rfc) that creates an Error: Expected attribute "year" to be an integer, but found "n.d." Commit: a69331d7248345bde8fad2de93e4ce39c753be85 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/a69331d7248345bde8fad2de93e4ce39c753be85 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-12-05 (Thu, 05 Dec 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- OEMID clarifications and references (#41) * OEMID clarifications and references * Typographic errors in OEM ID section * Fix dates in references that seem to be causing build failures Commit: efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text (#42) * Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text * Remove confusing comment about nonce transport security * Add size range for nonce and correct the CDDL Commit: e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Add changes since -01 section Commit: 7d9a8de9cf276d7a71b4eaa8bf254f3757966fcf https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/7d9a8de9cf276d7a71b4eaa8bf254f3757966fcf Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-02-07 (Fri, 07 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- UEID update: add references; 128 bits now, up to 256 bits later * Up UEID to 256 bits and add design rationale appendix * More thorough justification for 256-bit UEID * Correct spelling of BlueTooth Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati * Grammar Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati * Grammar Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati * Spelling Co-Authored-By: setrofim * Grammar Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati * fixed date issues for registries in yaml header * 128 bit UEIDs allowed, 256 optional; improve analysis in appendix * Correctly refer to oemid claim rather than OUI * EUI-48... are rolled in to EUI; add reference for IMEI * add references for EUIs Co-authored-by: Thomas Fossati Co-authored-by: setrofim Co-authored-by: Henk Birkholz Commit: 2c14b48b2b43df2f23f1c6c0a0540f4ee1db8331 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2c14b48b2b43df2f23f1c6c0a0540f4ee1db8331 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-02-13 (Thu, 13 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- revamp of submods and nested tokens (#43) * the nested eat claims is folded in with submods * specifies no inheritance * fix date for birthday attack reference to address build error * correction to say submod security level is less than or equal to rather than less than Commit: 136d631593e21078c3d1010f1866ce837f7ed189 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/136d631593e21078c3d1010f1866ce837f7ed189 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-02-13 (Thu, 13 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- add differences from -02 draft Commit: a648f41f4040e94847d2f6669bb0045e4331d53a https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/a648f41f4040e94847d2f6669bb0045e4331d53a Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Lots of CDDL fixes (#52) * Lots of fixes to the CDDL * update changes since -02 draft * Correct labels so the are integers and other minor * fix tiny typo Thanks, Henk Commit: b899254440826cea379eb1a5115ad08d1ed69898 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b899254440826cea379eb1a5115ad08d1ed69898 Author: Giri Mandyam Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Merge branch 'master' into br1 Commit: cf76bd58c185a98a8a9d1637b9030e17f1054a92 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/cf76bd58c185a98a8a9d1637b9030e17f1054a92 Author: Giri Mandyam Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Merge pull request #28 from gmandyam/br1 Security Considerations Commit: 402099d886100f0181b2c9cbf51de39d2cda3afb https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/402099d886100f0181b2c9cbf51de39d2cda3afb Author: Giri Mandyam Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Commit: 181c5fc09e5e71dc80c1108828fe2cfc4dfaec60 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/181c5fc09e5e71dc80c1108828fe2cfc4dfaec60 Author: Giri Mandyam Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Commit: 82dc3b0b98ccf5ae46378d85ab7481e275440159 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/82dc3b0b98ccf5ae46378d85ab7481e275440159 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-02-20 (Thu, 20 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Array of nonces; fix example; text reformatting Commit: 22462da89d970fbb3b5922402263381ea5052692 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/22462da89d970fbb3b5922402263381ea5052692 Author: Giri Mandyam Date: 2020-02-20 (Thu, 20 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Commit: 15eacfa4f5f8915fb2c2e0c53464aefcb859b6af https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/15eacfa4f5f8915fb2c2e0c53464aefcb859b6af Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- merge master into boot state branch Commit: cc226daac1d6dcef8bcd71e7bbd1ca4e268fc038 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/cc226daac1d6dcef8bcd71e7bbd1ca4e268fc038 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- split boot-state claim into debug disable and secure boot claims Compare: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/compare/b430487d7d35...cc226daac1d6 From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:03:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F703A0C9A for ; 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X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:03:11 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 4ad31a67bf788d91c79bf8b704fe67533ac6549d https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/4ad31a67bf788d91c79bf8b704fe67533ac6549d Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-18 (Tue, 18 Feb 2020) Changed paths: A .gitignore A cddl-fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A cddl-fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A cddl-fixes/index.html A draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A index.html A issues.html A issues.js A issues.json A ll_cddl_fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A ll_cddl_fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A ll_cddl_fixes/index.html A nonce/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A nonce/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A nonce/index.html A pulls.json A submods_revamp/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A submods_revamp/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A submods_revamp/index.html A update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A update_debug_claim/index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-02-18T11:18:47Z. [ci skip] Commit: 434cfca138309c287164d8dbf06aefc4e013e494 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/434cfca138309c287164d8dbf06aefc4e013e494 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M index.html M ll_cddl_fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M ll_cddl_fixes/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from 28f5616. [ci skip] Commit: 51cfda6af80b52596b6f58ef66b704303cfd5298 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/51cfda6af80b52596b6f58ef66b704303cfd5298 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M issues.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-02-19T11:34:11Z. [ci skip] Commit: 092aa575d89f56cab399c1a9d2699459ba89c213 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/092aa575d89f56cab399c1a9d2699459ba89c213 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from a648f41. [ci skip] Commit: 8cd45c04520fa4fc9e1390f58c5ae6f0aaeb27a3 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/8cd45c04520fa4fc9e1390f58c5ae6f0aaeb27a3 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from 181c5fc. [ci skip] Commit: 5e826ded93ee0ffd2249b2d510ec0ea960044081 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5e826ded93ee0ffd2249b2d510ec0ea960044081 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M issues.json M pulls.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-02-19T22:46:08Z. [ci skip] Commit: 7f158e42dd2921c9dc47169da71c99595d882b44 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/7f158e42dd2921c9dc47169da71c99595d882b44 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-20 (Thu, 20 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from 82dc3b0. [ci skip] Commit: 5c2d1be1ed0199e5a4f025a299e864767a28325f https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5c2d1be1ed0199e5a4f025a299e864767a28325f Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-29 (Sat, 29 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M index.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from a8887dd. [ci skip] Commit: 131129c95ea92082377ab74eb665a4ee97241eee https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/131129c95ea92082377ab74eb665a4ee97241eee Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-02-29 (Sat, 29 Feb 2020) Changed paths: M issues.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-02-29T16:02:06Z. [ci skip] Commit: 5c6bfce6f459e321f069e73492a7cfe59f17f572 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5c6bfce6f459e321f069e73492a7cfe59f17f572 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-03-02 (Mon, 02 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M index.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from b430487. [ci skip] Commit: 94a84c12f550218830d00b39c9c4ec16f29ecaf8 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/94a84c12f550218830d00b39c9c4ec16f29ecaf8 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-03-02 (Mon, 02 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M issues.json M pulls.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-03-02T04:18:49Z. [ci skip] Commit: bc4d7c310dea4d9f98dac0bacf2db0e08d749b46 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bc4d7c310dea4d9f98dac0bacf2db0e08d749b46 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M index.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M update_debug_claim/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from cc226da. [ci skip] Compare: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/compare/ae6ec1327aa2...bc4d7c310dea From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:03:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14CF3A0CB6 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dH4DRFTNRr6t for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-15.smtp.github.com (out-15.smtp.github.com [192.30.254.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E8643A0C99 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-edec459.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-edec459.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.18.32]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34ED261758 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584640988; bh=PuxvEbCM/bi6HnDnRL8vUIvfp2FkknafuQyw8I9UOy8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=kKjU8fpL4klSmBS5U00jfCm/EyuqnxURWTqVx4Z8Kh0Q0qaOKy+NxbcHUTqQTnDM3 6IPRQHa7kSHndxQtEtGiQJvmoR+wHDK1mNCze0AWYnY6ysOe33fs/yOn3wcSTu+Ve+ NHB606YXDctwO4vTMeZAH367W8mAKfsWh1M83gqA= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:03:08 -0700 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 5685f0: Script updating archive at 2020-03-19T18:03:05Z. 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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:05:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7431E3A0C6A for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRwfn2a_5OI6 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-28.smtp.github.com (out-28.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00CDB3A0C69 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-25680bd.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-25680bd.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.17.61]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9768C1677 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584641131; bh=PGRzv4D41fp6dIV1Uxefd6PjnTqogu4Yvh6826Wpmgg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=nnoIjexOpQZs7fS+A1tX82r+UNFotLtfrya679nYzyZsWEC8tEQzQNimL8ylcv6XR NQgjzcPR7f+U+byS3kdCnZi0GWnGtldoH7Hp3q6chcv063ASnEcKwOcyRtkeizI4bz oC0jjooJXLBFrsoxr+SXcR3rwpoo7yBOumJCAyXU= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:31 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 0bc0f9: boot_state split into secure-boot and debug-disabl... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:05:36 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 0bc0f9149f544855ba400989efdd9b4961257ef8 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/0bc0f9149f544855ba400989efdd9b4961257ef8 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- boot_state split into secure-boot and debug-disable claims; debug is an enum, not Booleans * Revamp debug disable so it is levels, not Booleans * Clarify description of disabled state Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati * Fix CDDL for boot and debug state * Rework to clarify inheritance and relations between submodules and superior modules * Add the Not Reported debug level and indicate that is the default when the claim is absent * absence of any claim means not reported; remove Not Reported debug state * grammar fix * split boot-state claim into debug disable and secure boot claims Co-authored-by: Thomas Fossati Co-authored-by: Laurence Lundblade From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:05:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8BC3A0C88 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TVD_SPACE_RATIO=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrustvDoJLIi for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:05:44 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/update_debug_claim Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:06:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94503A0C6E for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:06:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5A53A0C9A for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QKRJY8_9JxvK for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-12.smtp.github.com (out-12.smtp.github.com [192.30.254.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E24F93A0CAC for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-bb778fb.ash1-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-bb778fb.ash1-iad.github.net [10.56.102.56]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B90121284 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584641182; bh=olcUIcrTgrWJJGiKqusfCdFJ4ra1BnGK/Mb4TrdF5g4=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=bnNg7YSR4GR7rNeFOPOvAbTW+9qiSohAVh4TOYi7gdhmcD/pRlBddHYqvbie0HoPe UNSvLpUGWAkYf/Ipu6qhoAxWVo2drYOzW/r3Nlxab2hE0YLc8eUqBPYFnkQyADghIg j4S351//lDsMul2kW6cyoN85uWpGqlFhgJ6GhbNA= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:22 -0700 From: Patrick Uiterwijk To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] fd5665: Fix sentences describing Major type 2 and other ty... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:06:32 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: fd566501ef6d4de679b8feee7415eacc0e209bcb https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/fd566501ef6d4de679b8feee7415eacc0e209bcb Author: Patrick Uiterwijk Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Fix sentences describing Major type 2 and other types (#56) From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:07:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9683A0C82 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LDYnEqRXZdSB for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-19.smtp.github.com (out-19.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F4B13A0CCB for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:06:48 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584641208; bh=u4ThORWMdE/aNWEttlTitCTwLyKNLjU9Je7ZNcjURMU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=I3s6bB4aforIarUfMVtmLIElSe+v69DfHPuurMzH5jmdKllHS3jeJs8MCpAtdB3Hz P67/JqdfvibESUmmygJ4n+oLxtLEDVcXjkcdnmj4CzcnyeoaBoptgIYqkCzKf9hAlP LiMen64K86/7rVVlxmXQEXsCbQO9NOQWqPKJZJmI= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] db767f: Script updating gh-pages from fd56650. 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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:18:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5999A3A09DE for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id om315EgXywjj for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-26.smtp.github.com (out-26.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 095683A0CCA for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-b19c547.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-b19c547.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.17.66]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6DC282B8D for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584641870; bh=C74MHvUUJ3JK00JHQWG9mknqVnmap89nKhoSy4zhNP8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=RU+lq14bwW7MN8Rh6QauXYdqVTfMElGv0PvseEZrxCHN8g6fmoQOcxQqgVg97Cnjd +m912puBd6WauNDrYlMnu1fn4RXlZWuO6AuFC7OksNL1k0irSgWCbSD+iJMbBfexJh /PLMml/uBWhNaLKe1bxezl5bItdQhoplYbj9ydys= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:17:49 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] aac5de: Fix minor errors in claim naming and examples X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:17:54 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: aac5de214068993208b41066f1717222abde6114 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/aac5de214068993208b41066f1717222abde6114 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Fix minor errors in claim naming and examples From nobody Thu Mar 19 11:18:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F8B3A0CD3 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZE0Nv7Tv_Su for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-7.smtp.github.com (out-7.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17B563A0CD8 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:18:25 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1584641905; bh=Fl6FdyjWwQKqvn716LSXLOxTNk6Q3NaITp1pw0DYV/U=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=cPrLOmvPFQiWGJUZDopb2/ufY8/Cf6STmhA2DYMJKHHAVr1goJMn9iiQRQLaZXYyC Q7VyfZ9GJvwcsePhJJkF1ZdqmLSdu/6BrrKnOtu+cdw+5gu/NUxeF7Nq+oL8dgEQRW DyO+QdA+uj69307Ik2Lo2CBMN7LVYOWv7C8/Xz9U= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 4ee3b8: Script updating gh-pages from aac5de2. [ci skip] X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:18:34 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 4ee3b8e8b82ab23b0d89fdf789c4307768bc16fa https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/4ee3b8e8b82ab23b0d89fdf789c4307768bc16fa Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from aac5de2. 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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 23:59:04 +0000 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RATs virtual session doodle poll closing EOD tomorrow! 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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: rats-chairs@ietf.org, rats@ietf.org, ncamwing@cisco.com, rdd@cert.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158508601856.19662.5576122592691580849@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:40:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] rats - New Interim Meeting Request X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 21:40:20 -0000 A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Nancy Cam-Winget. This request requires approval by the Area Director of the Security Area The meeting can be approved here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2020-rats-04 --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Nancy Cam-Winget Meeting Type: Virtual Meeting Session 1: Date: 2020-03-31 Start Time: 07:30 America/Los_Angeles Duration: 02:00 Remote Participation Information: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md817829672f3fe426f810053f00221f6 Agenda Note: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Mar 24 14:43:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDB33A0EA3; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: rats-chairs@ietf.org, rdd@cert.org, rats@ietf.org, ncamwing@cisco.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158508621376.19778.4967478813091084828@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:43:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] rats - New Interim Meeting Request X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 21:43:35 -0000 A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Nancy Cam-Winget. This request requires approval by the Area Director of the Security Area The meeting can be approved here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2020-rats-05 --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Nancy Cam-Winget Meeting Type: Virtual Meeting Session 1: Date: 2020-04-28 Start Time: 11:00 America/Los_Angeles Duration: 02:00 Remote Participation Information: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md780f1aa53bfc0bf5eba5c1de9c9c3c7 Agenda Note: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Mar 24 14:48:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC893A12DC for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158514486020.31374.1191069193059365939@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:01:00 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-03-31 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 14:01:01 -0000 The Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-03-31 from 07:30 to 09:30 America/Los_Angeles (14:30 to 16:30 UTC). Agenda: Agenda: -Agenda Bash (5min) -Architecture – Michael (30min) -EAT Claim characteristics and IANA – Laurence (15min) -EAT timestamps and expiration discussion - Laurence (20min) -RATS Timing definitions across use cases – Eric Voit (5min) -Trusted Path Routing – Eric (5 min) -RATs PubSub – Wei Pan (5 min) Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-rats-vi-2020-03-31 JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md817829672f3fe426f810053f00221f6 Meeting number (access code): 618 100 113 Host key: 289711 Meeting password: 7J9uxcDfB5a Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md817829672f3fe426f810053f00221f6 From nobody Wed Mar 25 07:01:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A713A0C20; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:01:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158514488010.31315.14674333678170009852@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:01:20 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-28 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 14:01:30 -0000 The Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-28 from 11:00 to 13:00 America/Los_Angeles (18:00 to 20:00 UTC). Agenda: Agenda: - Agenda Bash (5min) - Network Device Attestation - Guy (20min) - RATs with MUD – Henk (10min) - COSWID for RATs – Henk (10min) - EAT Endorsement – Henk (10min) - RATs Unprotected CWT Tokens – Henk (10min) - Interaction Model – Henk (10min) - CHARRA Update – Henk (10min) Etherpad: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-rats-vi-2020-04-28 JOIN WEBEX MEETING https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md780f1aa53bfc0bf5eba5c1de9c9c3c7 Meeting number (access code): 611 503 400 Host key: 260711 Meeting password: jfX9KkPCQ83 Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md780f1aa53bfc0bf5eba5c1de9c9c3c7 From nobody Wed Mar 25 08:47:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D064C3A0983 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA which have= elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so that it = may either be "unique to each device or a collection of identical devices".= The definition of the Identity claim is now a value that identifies the IA= K. This has been done to support entity grouping for (some) privacy scenari= os. While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom claims,= our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as possible to = the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, there has been a d= irect analogy between arm_psa_UEID and the standard UEID. With this change = though, we would have to move away from this. The current description of UE= ID makes it clear that it must be device world unique. There is some discus= sion (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid= -privacy-considerations) of the group scenario, but the only statement abou= t the claim situation is that "It will often be the case that tokens will n= ot have a UEID for these reasons". In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity identity c= laim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The options seem to be: a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include a cust= om group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification between profil= es. b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new stan= dard GEID claim c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would ignore = any more general uses of group identities. Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make the most s= ense and is the option we would propose to the WG. Thoughts? Thanks Simon Simon Frost Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm Mob: +44 7855 265691 IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_DBBPR08MB4903BE72097CBCD14C15C4A8EFCE0DBBPR08MB4903eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We had an internal discussion i= n response to some changes in PSA which have elaborated the definition of a= n Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so that it may either be “uni= que to each device or a collection of identical devices”. The definition of the Identity claim = is now a value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entit= y grouping for (some) privacy scenarios.

 

While we have an EAT Profile fo= r PSA that uses a full set of custom claims, our intent has always been to = be to migrate as many claims as possible to the standard once the RATS work= is complete. Previously, there has been a direct analogy between arm_psa_UEID and= the standard UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away fro= m this. The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be devi= ce world unique. There is some discussion (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ie= tf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-privacy-considerations) of the group scenari= o, but the only statement about the claim situation is that “It will often be the case that token= s will not have a UEID for these reasons”.<= /o:p>

 

In the privacy scenario, it is = still desirable to have an entity identity claim, for use by a verifier or = for general usage. The options seem to be:

 

a/ If the entity is unique, inc= lude an UEID claim, otherwise include a custom group claim. It seems a pity= to encourage diversification between profiles.

 

b/ If the entity is unique, inc= lude an UEID claim, otherwise use a new standard GEID claim

 

c/ punt this problem out to the= kid of the COSE wrapper. This would ignore any more general uses of group = identities.

 

Of these, b/ (introduce a new s= tandard GEID claim) seems to make the most sense and is the option we would= propose to the WG.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks

Simon

 

Simon Frost

Senior Principal Systems Solution= Architect, ATG, Arm

Mob: +44 7855 265691

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_DBBPR08MB4903BE72097CBCD14C15C4A8EFCE0DBBPR08MB4903eurp_-- From nobody Wed Mar 25 09:29:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327113A0BCF for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cjPQSPIaB39N for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga01.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) 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orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.172]) by ORSMSX159.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.47]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:29:34 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Simon Frost , Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb0w== Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:29:34 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.255.229.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C205FBA771A74987AE82DA855BF86B84intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:29:56 -0000 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X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SQsRn8wa_lQ for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CE793A0D95 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id H9B0jhSprXQ8FH9B0jJsAT; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:46:47 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=ArmQI91P c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=nLN8OSg9AAAA:8 a=RSwUop9tZJZYD75z-y8A:9 a=0W36HVh1BQ6h3W6C:21 a=ZRNuYCiUj74nJfLp:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=lipAo5nTdXEA:10 a=zZZp1RLuUu5hYtOj:21 a=lN6rgictqX7LovcF:21 a=v5cDZd4gLMbOeBsH:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 a=WeMfpjVkWBtNWNN7qY1s:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_22150EFC-5ADE-4F88-B50E-0456A7D5602E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:46:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Simon Frost , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPbL2j7RfDZ63lxP8q2/GepgyyOfOMnVrH/TiAqIjdBIpPqIKduyvAtV7+lGM2J9deztY3LW51T7kQvmnfdUgx6adASSxk7Km4VDPG8IPqoooJ6qcrdI mGfiaYde2JTOhsmjSaqsBp35F0ahdlvsuVyD1FV6qe+0uuzH9i6DiFRTsPeR1iI+ag4/wzqHihBqLVp/U0pzZc7B2XAEqAHGbiYZknWdWbH6NqQS5eBZu/Ww Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:46:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_22150EFC-5ADE-4F88-B50E-0456A7D5602E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A GEID of similar structure to a UEID seems like a possibility, but = what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it? = What does the verifier do with it? An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That is = its clearly stated purpose. In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the = verification key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a = useful side-effect. If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the = verification key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. It = should be key id. So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. What = are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? LL > On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a EUID = is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of = uniqueness differ. > =20 > From: RATS on behalf of Simon Frost = > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM > To: Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" = > Subject: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member > =20 > We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA which = have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so = that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a collection of = identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity claim is now = a value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity = grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. > =20 > While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom = claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as = possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, = there has been a direct analogy between arm_psa_UEID and the standard = UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from this. The = current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device world = unique. There is some discussion = (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-pri= vacy-considerations = ) of the group scenario, but the only statement = about the claim situation is that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case = that tokens will not have a UEID for these reasons=E2=80=9D. > =20 > In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity = identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The options = seem to be: > =20 > a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include a = custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification between = profiles. > =20 > b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new = standard GEID claim > =20 > c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would = ignore any more general uses of group identities. > =20 > Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make the = most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. > =20 > Thoughts? > =20 > Thanks > Simon > =20 > Simon Frost > Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm > Mob: +44 7855 265691 > =20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. --Apple-Mail=_22150EFC-5ADE-4F88-B50E-0456A7D5602E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 A = GEID of similar structure to a UEID  seems like a possibility, but = what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it? = What does the verifier do with it?

An RP will use the UEID to track the = unique, specific device. That is its clearly stated purpose.

In some designs, a = verifier may use the UEID to identify the verification key, but that is = not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a useful side-effect.

If the purpose of a GEID = is solely for the verifier to identify the verification key, then I = don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. It should be key = id.

So for me = this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. What are the = groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP?

LL



On = Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

Is a GEID = structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a EUID is either a = 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of uniqueness = differ.
 
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 25, = 2020 at 8:47 AM
To: Laurence Lundblade = <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] UEID where an = instance is a group member
 
We had an internal discussion = in response to some changes in PSA which have elaborated the definition = of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so that it may either be = =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a collection of identical = devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the = Identity claim is now a value that identifies the IAK. This has been = done to support entity grouping for (some) privacy scenarios.
 
While = we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom claims, = our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as possible = to the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, there has = been a direct analogy between arm_psa_UEID and the standard UEID. With = this change though, we would have to move away from this. The current = description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device world unique. = There is some discussion (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#nam= e-ueid-privacy-considerations) of the group scenario, but the only = statement about the claim situation is that =E2=80=9CIt will = often be the case that tokens will not have a UEID for these = reasons=E2=80=9D.
 
In the = privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity identity = claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The options seem to = be:
 
a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID = claim, otherwise include a custom group claim. It seems a pity to = encourage diversification between profiles.
 
b/ If = the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new = standard GEID claim
 
c/ punt this problem out to = the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would ignore any more general uses of = group identities.
 
Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID = claim) seems to make the most sense and is the option we would propose = to the WG.
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks
Simon
 
Simon = Frost
Senior Principal Systems = Solution Architect, ATG, Arm
Mob: = +44 7855 265691
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any = attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not = the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not = disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or = store or copy the information in any medium. Thank = you.

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Any structure of that kind would help a Verifier to better... "guess" (well.. it probably is the output of some kind of negotiation), whether it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV? Viele Grüße, Henk On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > A GEID of similar structure to a UEID  seems like a possibility, but > what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it? > What does the verifier do with it? > > An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That is > its clearly stated purpose. > > In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the > verification key, but that is not the UEID’s purpose. It a useful > side-effect. > > If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the > verification key, then I don’t think it is should be a GEID. It should > be key id. > > So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. What > are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? > > LL > > > >> On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned > > wrote: >> >> Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a EUID >> is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of >> uniqueness differ. >> *From:*RATS > on >> behalf of Simon Frost > >> *Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM >> *To:*Laurence Lundblade > >, "rats@ietf.org >> " > >> *Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >> We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA which >> have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so >> that it may either be “unique to each device or a collection of >> identical devicesâ€. The definition of the Identity claim is now a >> value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity >> grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. >> While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom >> claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as >> possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, >> there has been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard >> UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from this. >> The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device >> world unique. There is some discussion >> (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-privacy-considerations) >> of the group scenario, but the only statement about the claim >> situation is that “It will often be the case that tokens will not have >> a UEID for these reasonsâ€. >> In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity >> identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The >> options seem to be: >> a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include a >> custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification >> between profiles. >> b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new >> standard GEID claim >> c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would >> ignore any more general uses of group identities. >> Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make the >> most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. >> Thoughts? >> Thanks >> Simon >> Simon Frost >> Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm >> Mob: +44 7855 265691 >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose >> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or >> copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Mar 25 10:39:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D49A3A0CE8 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.463, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=YoEFSwdR; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=YoEFSwdR Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by 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2020 17:39:22 +0000 From: Thomas Fossati To: Laurence Lundblade , "Smith, Ned" CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Simon Frost , Thomas Fossati Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb06hZhGsAgAAOsYA= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:39:22 +0000 Message-ID: <5642A3EB-F2CC-40D8-977F-BA475105E63D@arm.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Thomas.Fossati@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [217.140.99.251] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: dedbfda0-ac6c-4407-a182-08d7d0e378d0 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR08MB2967:|AM6PR08MB2967:|DB8PR08MB5002: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true nodisclaimer: true 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with ESMTP id 4xa7C7u6pzTX for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga14.intel.com (mga14.intel.com [192.55.52.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B8D03A07ED for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:34:04 -0700 (PDT) IronPort-SDR: KEpmVFxp9EgTYZgsrZX7GFm31iyarZp3hLqX6MnWWAOZk5Ygdb8C2TuzTYPcAA0GyNkyYrFjne yOUC+zd8K20Q== X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by fmsmga103.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Mar 2020 11:34:04 -0700 IronPort-SDR: W2bqOkcFDzG3AEU12qgJg5ChphVYnZTokhxQLyMTbatJhEnBJ9OUxRMp9QxhQpzpRrjjRK6qPc K/5zG1zm/Rbg== X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,305,1580803200"; d="scan'208";a="326305971" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 25 Mar 2020 11:34:03 -0700 Received: 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ADD2C3A0CF1 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HWPLjYH4Bz6mTHWPMjqLEP; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:35:08 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=QqEgIm6d c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=nLN8OSg9AAAA:8 a=xRZJ3wFy5TLDYuuLp2oA:9 a=WC4D2ALlbSNq2AAx:21 a=rqYdMskZLInAPk7k:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=lipAo5nTdXEA:10 a=2w6apJlOWwXnKkpbyHEA:9 a=w3BU2bcP-MbE0ram:21 a=XmDWdaWGGxmJySqn:21 a=lQqkw9_hkCJDxBl8:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 a=WeMfpjVkWBtNWNN7qY1s:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EADD0761-7609-49B3-A29E-DDD29903C3B0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:35:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> Cc: Henk Birkholz , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfErVwjlSAjSsBusD5JcN7sbEKTcP0rW2WnbazwU5Ml7KoYv927Pjst0psteWzz0dZqCj7K8Uybk5TcF+jNHesd4sYnXBeaCwM1xSx3lj9aMPU4EXj90K IVqR19MoPHMWbZTbDH+MxOTwPLd8bDtsNu5LQCIh3d0t+0Tj3iJRwEDrQ5jCHEWBugEoYR/plpe1re/kDLY0vaByb6dvTvzqDqAP+3rDBMRWFO2McmD7MEUc 5ubBYdJgjx0ha6uI5WHpHw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:35:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EADD0761-7609-49B3-A29E-DDD29903C3B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The claims giving characteristics of the device should really just focus = on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for securing the = evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result in trouble. = For example, you need to change the grouping scheme because of some = manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99t because you are using it to = represent some type or model info. Or maybe there=E2=80=99s a proxy = necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if it = didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or modify the claims. Here=E2=80=99s a few schemes I think are likely to get used to secure = evidence and results: Basic flat per-device public key Some X.509 hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE headers ECDAA and other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE = headers Group keys like FIDO, Android and this proposal Symmetric schemes, either per-device or group TLS (particularly for attestation results) Other new crypto protocol... COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and such all provide headers / parameters to carry = things like key IDs to make all of these schemes work. Using UEID for the key ID for per-device keys is probably mostly OK = because it is exactly using the semantics of the UEID. There=E2=80=99s = not really any overloading. GEID used for a key ID and something else would be overloading. Better = to clearly define separate claims for device types, models and such. I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE (and JOSE) = and using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would be even = cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize = privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really = beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the = privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it = someday. If using the group key ID header, you=E2=80=99d leave out the UEID, so = the number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the UEID in = you=E2=80=99d break the privacy preservation). Keeping claims separate from security header parameters also keeps the = SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify typical COSE: - Parse the COSE headers to get the key ID and look up the key - Verify the signature and get the payload - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload If you depend on the claims to verify the signature: - Decode the COSE structure to get the unverified payload - Decode the unverified claims to get the key ID and look up the key - Verify the signature and get the payload - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload again LL > On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > It seems the purpose for using group ID (GEID) instead of a device ID = (UEID) is for privacy reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device = instance. This violates the pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18). Therefore, if the device = is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to use a GEID = instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence.=20 >=20 > Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy sensitive. = Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer to a privacy = preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is support for DAA = keys (I think?).=20 >=20 > The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent with the = privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy preserving = equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to attest when = in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as identifiers which = seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary.=20 >=20 > However, since a device may have multiple keys over its lifetime (and = therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID / GEID) being = distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity persists even = though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed. >=20 > -Ned >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/25/20, 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" = = wrote: >=20 > Hi Laurence, >=20 > potentially, I just realized, it could serve the purpose of = matching the=20 > Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO Authenticator and therefore might = help=20 > the peer that the Atttester is talking to understand the format it = has=20 > to expect being incoming based on the additional input of a FIDO=20 > Metadata-Service (aka the Authentcator-Model that is called, = IIRC?). Any=20 > structure of that kind would help a Verifier to better... "guess"=20= > (well.. it probably is the output of some kind of negotiation), = whether=20 > it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV? >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 > On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> A GEID of similar structure to a UEID seems like a possibility, but=20= >> what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it?=20= >> What does the verifier do with it? >>=20 >> An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That is=20= >> its clearly stated purpose. >>=20 >> In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the=20 >> verification key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a = useful=20 >> side-effect. >>=20 >> If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the=20= >> verification key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. = It should=20 >> be key id. >>=20 >> So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. = What=20 >> are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? >>=20 >> LL >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned >> > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a = EUID=20 >>> is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of=20 >>> uniqueness differ. >>> *From:*RATS > = on=20 >>> behalf of Simon Frost > >>> *Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM >>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade >> >, "rats@ietf.org=20 >>> " > >>> *Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >>> We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA = which=20 >>> have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) = so=20 >>> that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a collection = of=20 >>> identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity claim is = now a=20 >>> value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity=20= >>> grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. >>> While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom=20= >>> claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims = as=20 >>> possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously,=20= >>> there has been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard=20= >>> UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from this.=20= >>> The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be = device=20 >>> world unique. There is some discussion=20 >>> = (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-pri= vacy-considerations)=20 >>> of the group scenario, but the only statement about the claim=20 >>> situation is that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens = will not have=20 >>> a UEID for these reasons=E2=80=9D. >>> In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity=20 >>> identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The=20 >>> options seem to be: >>> a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include = a=20 >>> custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification=20 >>> between profiles. >>> b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a = new=20 >>> standard GEID claim >>> c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would=20= >>> ignore any more general uses of group identities. >>> Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make the=20= >>> most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. >>> Thoughts? >>> Thanks >>> Simon >>> Simon Frost >>> Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm >>> Mob: +44 7855 265691 >>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are=20= >>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended=20= >>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose=20= >>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store = or=20 >>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_EADD0761-7609-49B3-A29E-DDD29903C3B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
The claims giving characteristics of the device should really = just focus on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for = securing the evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result = in trouble. For example, you need to change the grouping scheme because = of some manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99t because you are = using it to represent some type or model info. Or maybe there=E2=80=99s = a proxy necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if = it didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or modify the claims.

Here=E2=80=99s a few = schemes I think are likely to get used to secure evidence and = results:
  • Basic flat per-device public key
  • Some = X.509 hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE = headers
  • ECDAA and other variants of DAA that may have = other things in COSE headers
  • Group keys like FIDO, = Android and this proposal
  • Symmetric schemes, either = per-device or group
  • TLS (particularly for attestation = results)
  • Other new crypto protocol...

COSE, JOSE, TLS, = CMS and such all provide headers / parameters to carry things like key = IDs to make all of these schemes work.

Using UEID for the key ID for = per-device keys is probably mostly OK because it is exactly using the = semantics of the UEID. There=E2=80=99s not really any = overloading.

GEID used for a key ID and something else would be = overloading. Better to clearly define separate claims for device types, = models and such.

I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE = (and JOSE) and using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would = be even cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize = privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really = beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the = privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it = someday.

If = using the group key ID header, you=E2=80=99d leave out the UEID, so the = number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the UEID in you=E2=80=99= d break the privacy preservation).

Keeping claims separate from security = header parameters also keeps the SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify = typical COSE:
- Parse the COSE headers to get the = key ID and look up the key
- Verify the signature = and get the payload
- Decode the sig-checked claims = in the payload

If you depend on the claims to verify the = signature:
- Decode the COSE structure to get the = unverified payload
- Decode the unverified claims = to get the key ID and look up the key
- Verify the signature and get the payload
- Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload = again

LL




On Mar = 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

It seems the purpose for using group ID (GEID) instead of a = device ID (UEID) is for privacy reasons. UEIDs can be used to track = device instance. This violates the pseudonymity/unlinkability = requirement (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18). Therefore, = if the device is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to = use a GEID instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence.

Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially = privacy sensitive. Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should = refer to a privacy preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is = support for DAA keys (I think?).

The use = of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent with the privacy = protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy preserving equivalent = to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to attest when in privacy = protected modes). Or key IDs double as identifiers which seems to = suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary.

However, since a device may have multiple keys over its = lifetime (and therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID = / GEID) being distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity = persists even though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed.

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn = 3/25/20, 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org= on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

   Hi Laurence,

   potentially, I just = realized, it could serve the purpose of matching the
=    Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO Authenticator and = therefore might help
   the peer that the = Atttester is talking to understand the format it has
=    to expect being incoming based on the additional input = of a FIDO
   Metadata-Service (aka the = Authentcator-Model that is called, IIRC?). Any
=    structure of that kind would help a Verifier to = better... "guess"
   (well.. it probably = is the output of some kind of negotiation), whether
=    it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV?

=    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

=    Henk

=    On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
A GEID of similar = structure to a UEID  seems like a possibility, but
what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do = with it?
What does the verifier do with it?

An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, = specific device. That is
its clearly stated purpose.

In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID = to identify the
verification key, but that is not the = UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a useful
side-effect.

If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the = verifier to identify the
verification key, then I don=E2=80= =99t think it is should be a GEID. It should
be key = id.

So for me this kind of hinges on what a = GEID will mean for the RP. What
are the groupings it = gives and how are they meaningful to an RP?

LL



On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 = AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think = currently a EUID
is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I = assume the semantics of
uniqueness differ.
*From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on
behalf of Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com = <mailto:Simon.Frost@arm.com>>
*Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM
*To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com=
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>, "rats@ietf.org
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
*Subject:*[Rats]= UEID where an instance is a group member
We had an = internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA which
have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key = (IAK) so
that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each = device or a collection of
identical devices=E2=80=9D. The = definition of the Identity claim is now a
value that = identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity
grouping for (some) privacy scenarios.
While we = have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom
claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many = claims as
possible to the standard once the RATS work is = complete. Previously,
there has been a direct analogy = betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard
UEID. With this = change though, we would have to move away from this.
The = current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device
world unique. There is some discussion
(https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#nam= e-ueid-privacy-considerations)
of the group scenario, = but the only statement about the claim
situation is that = =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens will not have
a UEID for these reasons=E2=80=9D.
In the = privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity
identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. = The
options seem to be:
a/ If the entity is = unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include a
custom = group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification
between profiles.
b/ If the entity is unique, = include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new
standard GEID = claim
c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE = wrapper. This would
ignore any more general uses of group = identities.
Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID = claim) seems to make the
most sense and is the option we = would propose to the WG.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Simon
Simon Frost
Senior = Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm
Mob: +44 = 7855 265691
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email = and any attachments are
confidential and may also be = privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, please = notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or
copy the information in any medium. Thank you.


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


=    _______________________________________________
   RATS mailing list
=    RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


_______________________________________________
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where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb06hZ+cQAgAACJwD//6Z5AIAB9zeA///UPgA= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:58:31 +0000 Message-ID: <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.252.138.232] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4F616CB66F4243CE94A6ADD155900535intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:58:42 -0000 --_000_4F616CB66F4243CE94A6ADD155900535intelcom_ Content-Type: 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LqA3njSoIEXw for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6D743A0034 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Hda5jPmLo4wTJHda5jBI2A; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:14:42 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=GIt27dFK c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=nLN8OSg9AAAA:8 a=nLMx-K1QUXWLSLICCwwA:9 a=nF7EsKlVNXo73oWk:21 a=g0EoHxF-oPUbkS21:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=lipAo5nTdXEA:10 a=UGC2MJslNXvO-Mp0p3AA:9 a=B3NIPnn50YpsByA2:21 a=hsL6AlG6hPG74fSF:21 a=Vz8gkOhabb1FxWUt:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 a=WeMfpjVkWBtNWNN7qY1s:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F1BB865C-C55B-478D-B630-8AF617567E84" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:14:41 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz To: "Smith, Ned" References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBGga9KUUQciDd54r+dh6MFUo5uF0HOmRlz1osu7YKeUmlURNYcO2t95KS+rMUD7r/BQTi9VLrAqfO+Eov+Q0bQ18U/suH/m1QU8C6YaiC+eCIN6dCmp 2gknDtNq/38XU6XYfirbcIVxRJ1aEy3OlHfD86Nv4EfSzq8SA6zpdKVsUuNmNwDgibdBAP+5vUrQA+VD1hR/kqb8yJoW9l8iuDHXt75p3nP1F/iRez4zf4Rv lmuptlrPUJoRFYiKZjVPhw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:14:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F1BB865C-C55B-478D-B630-8AF617567E84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I was trying to make the case that the bits in the secured attestation = that the verifier uses to verify the signature (key ID, X.509 cert = chain, ECDAA parameters and such) are not always the same as UEID, as a = device identifier. Seems like we agree on this, as you say a key ID = identifies a key and UEID identifies a device. I=E2=80=99m quite sure that Simon=E2=80=99s proposal is to use GEID to = identify keys. I say it=E2=80=99s find to have such an identifier, but = put it in the COSE headers where key IDs should go and just use it as a = key ID. If we want some other thing that is a claim that is for groups of = devices, define that separately and say what the purpose and rules for = grouping are. LL > On Mar 26, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Laurence, > The point I was making is that EUID and keyID are not always = synonymous. In a case where a device only ever has one key, then maybe = they are synonymous. Otherwise, they should be treated differently. My = assumption is UEID identifies an entity (device) while keyID identifies = a key. > =20 > A GEID has the same semantics in terms of being an entity identifier = (vs. key identifier) only the GEID points to an entity that is = pseudonymously named. I agree it might be a useful to write a draft that = defines how attestation for privacy sensitivity should be accomplished. > =20 > The other observations seems accurate but I don=E2=80=99t see how they = relate to the discussion about whether entity identifiers differ from = key identifiers. > =20 > Thanks, > Ned > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 10:35 AM > To: "Smith, Ned" > Cc: Henk Berkholz , "rats@ietf.org" = > Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member > =20 > The claims giving characteristics of the device should really just = focus on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for securing = the evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result in = trouble. For example, you need to change the grouping scheme because of = some manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99t because you are using = it to represent some type or model info. Or maybe there=E2=80=99s a = proxy necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if = it didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or modify the claims. > =20 > Here=E2=80=99s a few schemes I think are likely to get used to secure = evidence and results: > Basic flat per-device public key > Some X.509 hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE headers > ECDAA and other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE = headers > Group keys like FIDO, Android and this proposal > Symmetric schemes, either per-device or group > TLS (particularly for attestation results) > Other new crypto protocol... > =20 > COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and such all provide headers / parameters to = carry things like key IDs to make all of these schemes work. > =20 > Using UEID for the key ID for per-device keys is probably mostly OK = because it is exactly using the semantics of the UEID. There=E2=80=99s = not really any overloading. > =20 > GEID used for a key ID and something else would be overloading. Better = to clearly define separate claims for device types, models and such. > =20 > I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE (and JOSE) = and using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would be even = cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize = privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really = beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the = privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it = someday. > =20 > If using the group key ID header, you=E2=80=99d leave out the UEID, so = the number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the UEID in = you=E2=80=99d break the privacy preservation). > =20 > Keeping claims separate from security header parameters also keeps the = SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify typical COSE: > - Parse the COSE headers to get the key ID and look up the key > - Verify the signature and get the payload > - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload > =20 > If you depend on the claims to verify the signature: > - Decode the COSE structure to get the unverified payload > - Decode the unverified claims to get the key ID and look up the key > - Verify the signature and get the payload > - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload again > =20 > LL > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned > wrote: >> =20 >> It seems the purpose for using group ID (GEID) instead of a device ID = (UEID) is for privacy reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device = instance. This violates the pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18 = ). Therefore, if the device = is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to use a GEID = instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence.=20 >>=20 >> Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy sensitive. = Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer to a privacy = preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is support for DAA = keys (I think?).=20 >>=20 >> The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent with = the privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy preserving = equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to attest when = in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as identifiers which = seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary.=20 >>=20 >> However, since a device may have multiple keys over its lifetime (and = therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID / GEID) being = distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity persists even = though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed. >>=20 >> -Ned >>=20 >> On 3/25/20, 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" = on behalf = ofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de = > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Laurence, >>=20 >> potentially, I just realized, it could serve the purpose of = matching the=20 >> Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO Authenticator and therefore might = help=20 >> the peer that the Atttester is talking to understand the format it = has=20 >> to expect being incoming based on the additional input of a FIDO=20= >> Metadata-Service (aka the Authentcator-Model that is called, = IIRC?). Any=20 >> structure of that kind would help a Verifier to better... "guess"=20= >> (well.. it probably is the output of some kind of negotiation), = whether=20 >> it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV? >>=20 >> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >>=20 >> Henk >>=20 >> On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>=20 >>> A GEID of similar structure to a UEID seems like a possibility, but=20= >>> what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it?=20= >>> What does the verifier do with it? >>>=20 >>> An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That = is=20 >>> its clearly stated purpose. >>>=20 >>> In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the=20 >>> verification key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a = useful=20 >>> side-effect. >>>=20 >>> If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the=20= >>> verification key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. = It should=20 >>> be key id. >>>=20 >>> So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. = What=20 >>> are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? >>>=20 >>> LL >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned =20 >>>> >> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a = EUID=20 >>>> is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of=20 >>>> uniqueness differ. >>>> *From:*RATS = >> on=20 >>>> behalf of Simon Frost >> >>>> *Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM >>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade =20 >>>> >>, = "rats@ietf.org =20 >>>> >" >> >>>> *Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >>>> We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA = which=20 >>>> have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) = so=20 >>>> that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a = collection of=20 >>>> identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity claim is = now a=20 >>>> value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity=20= >>>> grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. >>>> While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom=20= >>>> claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims = as=20 >>>> possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. = Previously,=20 >>>> there has been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard=20= >>>> UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from = this.=20 >>>> The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be = device=20 >>>> world unique. There is some discussion=20 >>>> = (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-pri= vacy-considerations = )=20 >>>> of the group scenario, but the only statement about the claim=20 >>>> situation is that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens = will not have=20 >>>> a UEID for these reasons=E2=80=9D. >>>> In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity=20 >>>> identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The=20 >>>> options seem to be: >>>> a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise = include a=20 >>>> custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification=20 >>>> between profiles. >>>> b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a = new=20 >>>> standard GEID claim >>>> c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would=20= >>>> ignore any more general uses of group identities. >>>> Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make = the=20 >>>> most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. >>>> Thoughts? >>>> Thanks >>>> Simon >>>> Simon Frost >>>> Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm >>>> Mob: +44 7855 265691 >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments = are=20 >>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the = intended=20 >>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose=20= >>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store = or=20 >>>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = --Apple-Mail=_F1BB865C-C55B-478D-B630-8AF617567E84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = was trying to make the case that the bits in the secured attestation = that the verifier uses to verify the signature (key ID, X.509 cert = chain, ECDAA parameters and such) are not always the same as UEID, as a = device identifier. Seems like we agree on this, as you say a key ID = identifies a key and UEID identifies a device.

I=E2=80=99m quite sure that Simon=E2=80=99= s proposal is to use GEID to identify keys. I say it=E2=80=99s find to = have such an identifier, but put it in the COSE headers where key IDs = should go and just use it as a key ID.

If we want some other thing that is a = claim that is for groups of devices, define that separately and say what = the purpose and rules for grouping are.

LL



On Mar = 26, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

Laurence,
The point I = was making is that EUID and keyID are not always synonymous. In a case = where a device only ever has one key, then maybe they are synonymous. = Otherwise, they should be treated differently. My assumption is UEID = identifies an entity (device) while keyID identifies a key.
 
A GEID has the same semantics in terms of being an entity = identifier (vs. key identifier) only the GEID points to an entity that = is pseudonymously named. I agree it might be a useful to write a draft = that defines how attestation for privacy sensitivity should be = accomplished.
 
The other observations seems accurate but I don=E2=80=99t see = how they relate to the discussion about whether entity identifiers = differ from key = identifiers.
 
Thanks,
Ned
 
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Thursday, March 26, = 2020 at 10:35 AM
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: Henk = Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where = an instance is a group member
 
The claims giving characteristics of the device should really = just focus on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for = securing the evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result = in trouble. For example, you need to change the grouping scheme because = of some manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99t because you are = using it to represent some type or model info. Or maybe there=E2=80=99s = a proxy necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if = it didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or modify the claims.
 
Here=E2=80=99s a few schemes I think = are likely to get used to secure evidence and results:
  • Basic flat per-device public key
  • Some X.509 = hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE headers
  • ECDAA and = other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE headers
  • Group keys = like FIDO, Android and this proposal
  • Symmetric schemes, either per-device = or group
  • TLS (particularly for attestation results)
  • Other new = crypto protocol...
 
COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and such all = provide headers / parameters to carry things like key IDs to make all of = these schemes work.
 
Using UEID for the key ID for per-device keys is probably = mostly OK because it is exactly using the semantics of the UEID. = There=E2=80=99s not really any overloading.
 
GEID used for a key ID and something = else would be overloading. Better to clearly define separate claims for = device types, models and such.
 
I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE = (and JOSE) and using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would = be even cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize = privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really = beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the = privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it = someday.
 
If using the group key ID header, you=E2=80=99d leave out the = UEID, so the number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the = UEID in you=E2=80=99d break the privacy preservation).
 
Keeping claims separate from security = header parameters also keeps the SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify = typical COSE:
- Parse the COSE headers to get the key = ID and look up the key
- Verify the signature and = get the payload
- Decode the sig-checked claims in the = payload
 
If you depend on the claims to verify the signature:
- Decode the COSE structure to get the unverified payload
- Decode the unverified claims to get the key ID and look up = the key
- Verify the signature and = get the payload
- Decode the sig-checked claims in the = payload again
 
LL
 
 
 


On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, = Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> = wrote:
 
It seems the purpose for = using group ID (GEID) instead of a device ID (UEID) is for privacy = reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device instance. This violates the = pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18). Therefore, = if the device is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to = use a GEID instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence. 

Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy = sensitive. Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer = to a privacy preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is = support for DAA keys (I think?). 

The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent = with the privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy = preserving equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to = attest when in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as = identifiers which seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary. 

However, since a device may have multiple keys over its = lifetime (and therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID = / GEID) being distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity = persists even though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed.

-Ned

On 3/25/20, = 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf ofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

   Hi Laurence,
   potentially, I just realized, it could = serve the purpose of matching the 
   Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO = Authenticator and therefore might help 
   the peer that the Atttester is talking to = understand the format it has 
   to expect being incoming based on the = additional input of a FIDO 
   Metadata-Service (aka the = Authentcator-Model that is called, IIRC?). Any 
   structure of that kind would help a = Verifier to better... "guess" 
   (well.. it probably is the output of some = kind of negotiation), whether 
   it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV?

   Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

   Henk

   On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade = wrote:

A GEID of similar structure to a UEID  seems like a = possibility, but 
what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do = with it? 
What does the verifier do with it?

An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. = That is 
its clearly stated purpose.

In = some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the 
verification = key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a useful 
side-effect.

If the purpose of a = GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the 
verification = key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. It should 
be key = id.

So for me this kind of hinges on what a = GEID will mean for the RP. What 
are the = groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP?
LL




On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 = AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com 
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think = currently a EUID 
is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics = of 
uniqueness differ.
*From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on 
behalf of = Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com<mailto:Simon.Frost@arm.com>>
*Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM
*To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>, "rats@ietf.org 
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
*Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member
We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in = PSA which 
have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key = (IAK) so 
that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a = collection of 
identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity = claim is now a 
value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support = entity 
grouping for (some) privacy scenarios.
While we = have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom 
claims, our = intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as 
possible to = the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, 
there has = been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard 
UEID. With = this change though, we would have to move away from this. 
The current = description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device 
world = unique. There is some discussion 
(https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#nam= e-ueid-privacy-considerations) 
of the group = scenario, but the only statement about the claim 
situation is = that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens will not have 
a UEID for = these reasons=E2=80=9D.
In the privacy scenario, it is = still desirable to have an entity 
identity = claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The 
options seem = to be:
a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, = otherwise include a 
custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage = diversification 
between profiles.
b/ If the entity is unique, = include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new 
standard = GEID claim
c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE = wrapper. This would 
ignore any more general uses of group identities.
Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to = make the 
most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Simon
Simon Frost
Senior Principal Systems Solution = Architect, ATG, Arm
Mob: +44 7855 265691
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any = attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the = intended 
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not = disclose 
the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or = store or 
copy the information in any medium. Thank you.



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


   _____________________________________________= __
   RATS mailing list
   RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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([169.254.2.172]) by ORSMSX115.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.4.102]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:35:03 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb06hZ+cQAgAACJwD//6Z5AIAB9zeA///UPgCAAKwpgP//kFcA Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:35:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3B4B51C4-CF9A-43D9-9AD9-6504778F3BF0@intel.com> References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.252.138.232] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3B4B51C4CF9A43D99AD96504778F3BF0intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:35:09 -0000 --_000_3B4B51C4CF9A43D99AD96504778F3BF0intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2hhdCBpcyB3cm9uZyB3aXRoIHVzaW5nIGtleUlEIHRvIGlkZW50aWZ5IGEgZ3JvdXAga2V5Pw0K DQpGcm9tOiBMYXVyZW5jZSBMdW5kYmxhZGUgPGxnbEBpc2xhbmQtcmVzb3J0LmNvbT4NCkRhdGU6 IFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAyNiwgMjAyMCBhdCA2OjE0IFBNDQpUbzogIlNtaXRoLCBOZWQiIDxu ZWQuc21pdGhAaW50ZWwuY29tPg0KQ2M6ICJyYXRzQGlldGYub3JnIiA8cmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZz4s IEhlbmsgQmVya2hvbHogPGhlbmsuYmlya2hvbHpAc2l0LmZyYXVuaG9mZXIuZGU+DQpTdWJqZWN0 OiBSZTogW1JhdHNdIFVFSUQgd2hlcmUgYW4gaW5zdGFuY2UgaXMgYSBncm91cCBtZW1iZXINCg0K 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(mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 02R96Yhx013339 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:06:34 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.123.239) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:06:29 +0100 To: Laurence Lundblade , "Smith, Ned" CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <9ebe1653-c590-eb4f-343c-10147e7fb5f0@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:06:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.123.239] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 09:06:47 -0000 Hi Laurence, I am having a hard time to follow the discussion. What does "secured attestation" mean in this context, an EAT that is Evidence or something else? I am really not sure, because I cannot parse your first paragraph. It could also be an Endorsement, such as a Metadata-Service Certificate? Viele Grüße, Henk On 27.03.20 02:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > I was trying to make the case that the bits in the secured attestation > that the verifier uses to verify the signature (key ID, X.509 cert > chain, ECDAA parameters and such) are not always the same as UEID, as a > device identifier. Seems like we agree on this, as you say a key ID > identifies a key and UEID identifies a device. > > I’m quite sure that Simon’s proposal is to use GEID to identify keys. I > say it’s find to have such an identifier, but put it in the COSE headers > where key IDs should go and just use it as a key ID. > > If we want some other thing that is a claim that is for groups of > devices, define that separately and say what the purpose and rules for > grouping are. > > LL > > > >> On Mar 26, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Smith, Ned > > wrote: >> >> Laurence, >> The point I was making is that EUID and keyID are not always >> synonymous. In a case where a device only ever has one key, then maybe >> they are synonymous. Otherwise, they should be treated differently. My >> assumption is UEID identifies an entity (device) while keyID >> identifies a key. >> A GEID has the same semantics in terms of being an entity identifier >> (vs. key identifier) only the GEID points to an entity that is >> pseudonymously named. I agree it might be a useful to write a draft >> that defines how attestation for privacy sensitivity should be >> accomplished. >> The other observations seems accurate but I don’t see how they relate >> to the discussion about whether entity identifiers differ from key >> identifiers. >> Thanks, >> Ned >> *From:*Laurence Lundblade > > >> *Date:*Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 10:35 AM >> *To:*"Smith, Ned" > >> *Cc:*Henk Berkholz > >, "rats@ietf.org >> " > >> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >> The claims giving characteristics of the device should really just >> focus on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for >> securing the evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result >> in trouble. For example, you need to change the grouping scheme >> because of some manufacturing problem, but you can’t because you are >> using it to represent some type or model info. Or maybe there’s a >> proxy necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if >> it didn’t need to look into and/or modify the claims. >> Here’s a few schemes I think are likely to get used to secure evidence >> and results: >> >> * Basic flat per-device public key >> * Some X.509 hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE headers >> * ECDAA and other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE >> headers >> * Group keys like FIDO, Android and this proposal >> * Symmetric schemes, either per-device or group >> * TLS (particularly for attestation results) >> * Other new crypto protocol... >> >> COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and such all provide headers / parameters to >> carry things like key IDs to make all of these schemes work. >> Using UEID for the key ID for per-device keys is probably mostly OK >> because it is exactly using the semantics of the UEID. There’s not >> really any overloading. >> GEID used for a key ID and something else would be overloading. Better >> to clearly define separate claims for device types, models and such. >> I’d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE (and JOSE) and >> using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would be even >> cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize >> privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really >> beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the >> privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it someday. >> If using the group key ID header, you’d leave out the UEID, so the >> number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the UEID in you’d >> break the privacy preservation). >> Keeping claims separate from security header parameters also keeps the >> SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify typical COSE: >> - Parse the COSE headers to get the key ID and look up the key >> - Verify the signature and get the payload >> - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload >> If you depend on the claims to verify the signature: >> - Decode the COSE structure to get the unverified payload >> - Decode the unverified claims to get the key ID and look up the key >> - Verify the signature and get the payload >> - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload again >> LL >> >> >>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned >> > wrote: >>> It seems the purpose for using group ID (GEID) instead of a device ID >>> (UEID) is for privacy reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device >>> instance. This violates the pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement >>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18). Therefore, if the >>> device is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to use a >>> GEID instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence. >>> >>> Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy sensitive. >>> Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer to a >>> privacy preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is support >>> for DAA keys (I think?). >>> >>> The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent with >>> the privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy >>> preserving equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to >>> attest when in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as >>> identifiers which seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary. >>> >>> However, since a device may have multiple keys over its lifetime (and >>> therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID / GEID) >>> being distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity >>> persists even though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed. >>> >>> -Ned >>> >>> On 3/25/20, 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" >>> on behalf >>> ofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de >>> > wrote: >>> >>>    Hi Laurence, >>> >>>    potentially, I just realized, it could serve the purpose of >>> matching the >>>    Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO Authenticator and therefore might help >>>    the peer that the Atttester is talking to understand the format it has >>>    to expect being incoming based on the additional input of a FIDO >>>    Metadata-Service (aka the Authentcator-Model that is called, >>> IIRC?). Any >>>    structure of that kind would help a Verifier to better... "guess" >>>    (well.. it probably is the output of some kind of negotiation), >>> whether >>>    it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV? >>> >>>    Viele Grüße, >>> >>>    Henk >>> >>>    On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>> >>>> A GEID of similar structure to a UEID  seems like a possibility, but >>>> what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it? >>>> What does the verifier do with it? >>>> >>>> An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That is >>>> its clearly stated purpose. >>>> >>>> In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the >>>> verification key, but that is not the UEID’s purpose. It a useful >>>> side-effect. >>>> >>>> If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the >>>> verification key, then I don’t think it is should be a GEID. It should >>>> be key id. >>>> >>>> So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. What >>>> are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? >>>> >>>> LL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned >>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a EUID >>>>> is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of >>>>> uniqueness differ. >>>>> *From:*RATS >>>> > on >>>>> behalf of Simon Frost >>>> > >>>>> *Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM >>>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade >>>> >>>>> >, "rats@ietf.org >>>>> " >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >>>>> We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA which >>>>> have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key (IAK) so >>>>> that it may either be “unique to each device or a collection of >>>>> identical devicesâ€. The definition of the Identity claim is now a >>>>> value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support entity >>>>> grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. >>>>> While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom >>>>> claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as >>>>> possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, >>>>> there has been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard >>>>> UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from this. >>>>> The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device >>>>> world unique. There is some discussion >>>>> (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-privacy-considerations) >>>>> of the group scenario, but the only statement about the claim >>>>> situation is that “It will often be the case that tokens will not have >>>>> a UEID for these reasonsâ€. >>>>> In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity >>>>> identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The >>>>> options seem to be: >>>>> a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise include a >>>>> custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification >>>>> between profiles. >>>>> b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new >>>>> standard GEID claim >>>>> c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This would >>>>> ignore any more general uses of group identities. >>>>> Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make the >>>>> most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Simon >>>>> Simon Frost >>>>> Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm >>>>> Mob: +44 7855 265691 >>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose >>>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or >>>>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>> >>> >>>    _______________________________________________ >>>    RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Fri Mar 27 03:45:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8853A0990 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 03:45:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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(10.255.78.17) by DBBPR08MB4459.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (20.179.43.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2835.22; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:45:30 +0000 Received: from DBBPR08MB4903.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4126:33a9:6bb6:9c0]) by DBBPR08MB4903.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4126:33a9:6bb6:9c0%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2856.019; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:45:30 +0000 From: Simon Frost To: Laurence Lundblade , "Smith, Ned" CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb06hcP6gw Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:45:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR08MB3210 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:03:57 -0000 T24gMjYvMDMvMjAyMCwgMjE6NTgsIE5lZCBTbWl0aCA8bmVkLnNtaXRoQGludGVsLmNvbT4gd3Jv dGU6DQo+IFRoZSBwb2ludCBJIHdhcyBtYWtpbmcgaXMgdGhhdCBFVUlEIGFuZCBrZXlJRCBhcmUg bm90IGFsd2F5cw0KPiBzeW5vbnltb3VzLiBJbiBhIGNhc2Ugd2hlcmUgYSBkZXZpY2Ugb25seSBl dmVyIGhhcyBvbmUga2V5LCB0aGVuIG1heWJlDQo+IHRoZXkgYXJlIHN5bm9ueW1vdXMuIE90aGVy d2lzZSwgdGhleSBzaG91bGQgYmUgdHJlYXRlZCBkaWZmZXJlbnRseS4NCg0KSSdkIGdvIGEgYml0 IGZ1cnRoZXIgdGhhbiB0aGF0OiB0aGV5IGFyZSBuZXZlciBzeW5vbnltcywgYXQgbGVhc3QgYXQg YQ0KY29uY2VwdHVhbCBsZXZlbC4NCg0KSW4gcGFydGljdWxhciwgdGhlcmUgbWlnaHQgYmUgYXR0 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YXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVjaXBpZW50LCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIg aW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgYW5kIGRvIG5vdCBkaXNjbG9zZSB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgdG8gYW55IG90aGVy IHBlcnNvbiwgdXNlIGl0IGZvciBhbnkgcHVycG9zZSwgb3Igc3RvcmUgb3IgY29weSB0aGUgaW5m b3JtYXRpb24gaW4gYW55IG1lZGl1bS4gVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0K From nobody Fri Mar 27 10:17:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E0D3A0F66 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eyNnkZ1ZCnPe for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07B333A077C for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HsbQjClnkkOmBHsbQjXbx8; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:17:04 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=AsaQI91P c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=L97wbllJkXa3PSeA2XIA:9 a=eDA45425UaKvb9L2:21 a=b4mr-LZL2n72H3Jp:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=vHhHNS7PYnovbnBSJsoA:9 a=9PS5hea6avUt03PI:21 a=0UJkncUQ4U1agrLE:21 a=ciXb7wzBf4nBbwD-:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <91F8C267-3ED9-4B5A-A404-284EEE524251@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AA2DCD8B-1271-4C0F-97B3-C1A3C4B03ACE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:17:04 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9ebe1653-c590-eb4f-343c-10147e7fb5f0@sit.fraunhofer.de> Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" To: Henk Birkholz References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> <9ebe1653-c590-eb4f-343c-10147e7fb5f0@sit.fraunhofer.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGOGgZCqZmz+2eKsVi0y1u4POQwJqHijMr2eqBvKqhs4GYrHAIp6rXhyjVYkCPz11tWfrLXhfP78hAX22AEQr682MHUMIfee5LUDgDQz9uALHvvYKjOE auEKfiMu7zILRC/sPT7VQ0fO0bUaI2Of2fF4b3ko3ZjQr3xdihmYGRwougZMXuFAvSPD/RdCsZ4cWonwKyV2T+WZu1sjc33ZV1l6riyIAWWFeMcuRwiftFkp vaEc2u+pxQ+iUuq5sbehsg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 17:17:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AA2DCD8B-1271-4C0F-97B3-C1A3C4B03ACE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 27, 2020, at 2:06 AM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > I am having a hard time to follow the discussion. What does "secured = attestation" mean in this context, an EAT that is Evidence or something = else? I am really not sure, because I cannot parse your first paragraph. secured attestation evidence / results examples: =E2=80=94 EAT that is signed like a normal CWT =E2=80=94 Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) is transferred by TLS=20 =E2=80=94 Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) signed by a TPM (seems to = be on the radar in the bow-tie diagram) unsecured attestation evidence / results examples: =E2=80=94 Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) =E2=80=94 Unprotected JWT Claims Set (UJCS) (I just made this up) There is a layer that is the claim set (UCCS) and a layer that secure it = (COSE, TLS=E2=80=A6). They should be independent so you don=E2=80=99t = have to fiddle with your claim set when you change the layer that = secures it. LL= --Apple-Mail=_AA2DCD8B-1271-4C0F-97B3-C1A3C4B03ACE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Mar 27, 2020, at 2:06 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

I am having a hard time to = follow the discussion. What does "secured attestation" mean in this = context, an EAT that is Evidence or something else? I am really not = sure, because I cannot parse your first = paragraph.

secured attestation evidence / results = examples:
 =E2=80=94 EAT that is signed like a = normal CWT
 =E2=80=94 Unprotected CWT = Claims Set (UCCS) is transferred by TLS 
 =E2=80=94 Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) signed by a = TPM (seems to be on the radar in the bow-tie diagram)

unsecured attestation = evidence / results examples:
  =E2=80=94 =  Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS)
  =E2=80=94  Unprotected JWT Claims Set (UJCS) (I = just made this up)

There is a layer that is the claim set (UCCS) and a layer = that secure it (COSE, TLS=E2=80=A6). They should be independent so you = don=E2=80=99t have to fiddle with your claim set when you change the = layer that secures it.

LL
= --Apple-Mail=_AA2DCD8B-1271-4C0F-97B3-C1A3C4B03ACE-- From nobody Fri Mar 27 10:25:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC7B3A0F04 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vsl3KDrEcEU0 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 126073A0E5D for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HsipjYlGqGoavHsiqjw4yI; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:24:44 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PIpxBsiC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=QyXUC8HyAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=nLN8OSg9AAAA:8 a=_e9646JlSMGOqfDkTBkA:9 a=5KLfuG7VYIhIPecY:21 a=TsnFm9XhCr3SYm-7:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=lipAo5nTdXEA:10 a=CZ29MaO9-kALoYwvmQ4A:9 a=y5xQs-ojOvSI0juC:21 a=Ur6eaGnq-YME5jua:21 a=GH37zta_WjUhECmh:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 a=WeMfpjVkWBtNWNN7qY1s:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <716D7BB6-2175-4448-9A83-321D16743CAA@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D93EA4D6-E5DA-49C2-8078-93BA77BA520B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:24:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3B4B51C4-CF9A-43D9-9AD9-6504778F3BF0@intel.com> Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz To: "Smith, Ned" References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> <5F7158C8-F937-4769-A53B-B864D3010FBF@island-resort.com> <3B4B51C4-CF9A-43D9-9AD9-6504778F3BF0@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfLOvvCLjydQaQoqxMoImEmIzhxEyqHngyDB0x+HEyyve3le+08JwOw5ID5Sb7e2Z6bETYTODXVZ5bsqVam4RrxDx4vLvQ6vP6zZrl3DDePAd1TpsXb6p yKT20f8W22kjRF6Iuq3hyqU5fwFYiyMrttn3EZFvH6Ipe5HBk5KMILJRE5IgBxNBbkWmRbWinveh6WQRu06UTHB9AM7bYoCuk2ZZh9hRsm0koHW+tqtehxGk dznYxyu66RGDf8GIi/hw1Q== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 17:24:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D93EA4D6-E5DA-49C2-8078-93BA77BA520B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Nothing.=20 I assume you are referring to the COSE/JOSE kid header parameter. Sorry if this is violent agreement. LL > On Mar 26, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > What is wrong with using keyID to identify a group key? > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 6:14 PM > To: "Smith, Ned" > Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Berkholz = > Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member > =20 > I was trying to make the case that the bits in the secured attestation = that the verifier uses to verify the signature (key ID, X.509 cert = chain, ECDAA parameters and such) are not always the same as UEID, as a = device identifier. Seems like we agree on this, as you say a key ID = identifies a key and UEID identifies a device. > =20 > I=E2=80=99m quite sure that Simon=E2=80=99s proposal is to use GEID to = identify keys. I say it=E2=80=99s find to have such an identifier, but = put it in the COSE headers where key IDs should go and just use it as a = key ID. > =20 > If we want some other thing that is a claim that is for groups of = devices, define that separately and say what the purpose and rules for = grouping are. > =20 > LL > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 26, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Smith, Ned > wrote: >> =20 >> Laurence, >> The point I was making is that EUID and keyID are not always = synonymous. In a case where a device only ever has one key, then maybe = they are synonymous. Otherwise, they should be treated differently. My = assumption is UEID identifies an entity (device) while keyID identifies = a key. >> =20 >> A GEID has the same semantics in terms of being an entity identifier = (vs. key identifier) only the GEID points to an entity that is = pseudonymously named. I agree it might be a useful to write a draft that = defines how attestation for privacy sensitivity should be accomplished. >> =20 >> The other observations seems accurate but I don=E2=80=99t see how = they relate to the discussion about whether entity identifiers differ = from key identifiers. >> =20 >> Thanks, >> Ned >> =20 >> From: Laurence Lundblade > >> Date: Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 10:35 AM >> To: "Smith, Ned" > >> Cc: Henk Berkholz >, "rats@ietf.org = " > >> Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >> =20 >> The claims giving characteristics of the device should really just = focus on the characteristics of the device, not the scheme for securing = the evidence and results. Seems like overloading could result in = trouble. For example, you need to change the grouping scheme because of = some manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99t because you are using = it to represent some type or model info. Or maybe there=E2=80=99s a = proxy necessary for securing attestation evidence. It would be best if = it didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or modify the claims. >> =20 >> Here=E2=80=99s a few schemes I think are likely to get used to secure = evidence and results: >> Basic flat per-device public key >> Some X.509 hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE = headers >> ECDAA and other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE = headers >> Group keys like FIDO, Android and this proposal >> Symmetric schemes, either per-device or group >> TLS (particularly for attestation results) >> Other new crypto protocol... >> =20 >> COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and such all provide headers / parameters to = carry things like key IDs to make all of these schemes work. >> =20 >> Using UEID for the key ID for per-device keys is probably mostly OK = because it is exactly using the semantics of the UEID. There=E2=80=99s = not really any overloading. >> =20 >> GEID used for a key ID and something else would be overloading. = Better to clearly define separate claims for device types, models and = such. >> =20 >> I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group key ID header for COSE (and = JOSE) and using that instead of inventing the GEID claim. It would be = even cooler and more useful to write a draft and standardize = privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It would be really = beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that need to solve the = privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would eventually adopt it = someday. >> =20 >> If using the group key ID header, you=E2=80=99d leave out the UEID, = so the number of bytes transmitted is the same (if you put the UEID in = you=E2=80=99d break the privacy preservation). >> =20 >> Keeping claims separate from security header parameters also keeps = the SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify typical COSE: >> - Parse the COSE headers to get the key ID and look up the key >> - Verify the signature and get the payload >> - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload >> =20 >> If you depend on the claims to verify the signature: >> - Decode the COSE structure to get the unverified payload >> - Decode the unverified claims to get the key ID and look up the key >> - Verify the signature and get the payload >> - Decode the sig-checked claims in the payload again >> =20 >> LL >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned > wrote: >>> =20 >>> It seems the purpose for using group ID (GEID) instead of a device = ID (UEID) is for privacy reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device = instance. This violates the pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18 = ). Therefore, if the device = is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to use a GEID = instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence.=20 >>>=20 >>> Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy sensitive. = Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer to a privacy = preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is support for DAA = keys (I think?).=20 >>>=20 >>> The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent with = the privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy preserving = equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to attest when = in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as identifiers which = seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary.=20 >>>=20 >>> However, since a device may have multiple keys over its lifetime = (and therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID / GEID) = being distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity persists = even though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed. >>>=20 >>> -Ned >>>=20 >>> On 3/25/20, 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" = on behalf = ofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Laurence, >>>=20 >>> potentially, I just realized, it could serve the purpose of = matching the=20 >>> Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO Authenticator and therefore might = help=20 >>> the peer that the Atttester is talking to understand the format = it has=20 >>> to expect being incoming based on the additional input of a FIDO=20= >>> Metadata-Service (aka the Authentcator-Model that is called, = IIRC?). Any=20 >>> structure of that kind would help a Verifier to better... "guess"=20= >>> (well.. it probably is the output of some kind of negotiation), = whether=20 >>> it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV? >>>=20 >>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >>>=20 >>> Henk >>>=20 >>> On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> A GEID of similar structure to a UEID seems like a possibility, = but=20 >>>> what exactly is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with = it?=20 >>>> What does the verifier do with it? >>>>=20 >>>> An RP will use the UEID to track the unique, specific device. That = is=20 >>>> its clearly stated purpose. >>>>=20 >>>> In some designs, a verifier may use the UEID to identify the=20 >>>> verification key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a = useful=20 >>>> side-effect. >>>>=20 >>>> If the purpose of a GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the=20= >>>> verification key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a = GEID. It should=20 >>>> be key id. >>>>=20 >>>> So for me this kind of hinges on what a GEID will mean for the RP. = What=20 >>>> are the groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP? >>>>=20 >>>> LL >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned =20 >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think currently a = EUID=20 >>>>> is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics of=20 >>>>> uniqueness differ. >>>>> *From:*RATS = >> on=20 >>>>> behalf of Simon Frost >> >>>>> *Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM >>>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade =20 >>>>> >>, = "rats@ietf.org =20 >>>>> >" >> >>>>> *Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member >>>>> We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in PSA = which=20 >>>>> have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key = (IAK) so=20 >>>>> that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a = collection of=20 >>>>> identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity claim = is now a=20 >>>>> value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support = entity=20 >>>>> grouping for (some) privacy scenarios. >>>>> While we have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of = custom=20 >>>>> claims, our intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims = as=20 >>>>> possible to the standard once the RATS work is complete. = Previously,=20 >>>>> there has been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the = standard=20 >>>>> UEID. With this change though, we would have to move away from = this.=20 >>>>> The current description of UEID makes it clear that it must be = device=20 >>>>> world unique. There is some discussion=20 >>>>> = (https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#name-ueid-pri= vacy-considerations = )=20 >>>>> of the group scenario, but the only statement about the claim=20 >>>>> situation is that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens = will not have=20 >>>>> a UEID for these reasons=E2=80=9D. >>>>> In the privacy scenario, it is still desirable to have an entity=20= >>>>> identity claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The=20 >>>>> options seem to be: >>>>> a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise = include a=20 >>>>> custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage diversification=20= >>>>> between profiles. >>>>> b/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, otherwise use a = new=20 >>>>> standard GEID claim >>>>> c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE wrapper. This = would=20 >>>>> ignore any more general uses of group identities. >>>>> Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to make = the=20 >>>>> most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG. >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Simon >>>>> Simon Frost >>>>> Senior Principal Systems Solution Architect, ATG, Arm >>>>> Mob: +44 7855 265691 >>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments = are=20 >>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the = intended=20 >>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not = disclose=20 >>>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store = or=20 >>>>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = > =20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = --Apple-Mail=_D93EA4D6-E5DA-49C2-8078-93BA77BA520B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Nothing. 

I = assume you are referring to the COSE/JOSE kid header = parameter.

Sorry if this is violent = agreement.

LL


On Mar 26, 2020, at 6:35 PM, Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

What is wrong = with using keyID to identify a group key?
 
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Thursday, March 26, = 2020 at 6:14 PM
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk = Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where = an instance is a group member
 
I= was trying to make the case that the bits in the secured attestation = that the verifier uses to verify the signature (key ID, X.509 cert = chain, ECDAA parameters and such) are not always the same as UEID, as a = device identifier. Seems like we agree on this, as you say a key ID = identifies a key and UEID identifies a device.
 
I=E2=80=99m quite sure that Simon=E2=80=99= s proposal is to use GEID to identify keys. I say it=E2=80=99s find to = have such an identifier, but put it in the COSE headers where key IDs = should go and just use it as a key ID.
 
If we want some other thing that is a = claim that is for groups of devices, define that separately and say what = the purpose and rules for grouping are.
 
LL
 
 


On Mar 26, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com> = wrote:
 
Laurence,
The point I was making is that EUID and keyID are not always = synonymous. In a case where a device only ever has one key, then maybe = they are synonymous. Otherwise, they should be treated differently. My = assumption is UEID identifies an entity (device) while keyID identifies = a key.
 
A GEID has the same semantics in terms of being an entity = identifier (vs. key identifier) only the GEID points to an entity that = is pseudonymously named. I agree it might be a useful to write a draft = that defines how attestation for privacy sensitivity should be = accomplished.
 
The other observations seems accurate but I don=E2=80=99t see = how they relate to the discussion about whether entity identifiers = differ from key identifiers.
 
Thanks,
Ned
 
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Thursday, March 26, = 2020 at 10:35 AM
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where = an instance is a group member
 
The claims giving characteristics of = the device should really just focus on the characteristics of the = device, not the scheme for securing the evidence and results. Seems like = overloading could result in trouble. For example, you need to change the = grouping scheme because of some manufacturing problem, but you can=E2=80=99= t because you are using it to represent some type or model info. Or = maybe there=E2=80=99s a proxy necessary for securing attestation = evidence. It would be best if it didn=E2=80=99t need to look into and/or = modify the claims.
 
Here=E2=80=99s a few schemes I think = are likely to get used to secure evidence and results:
  • Basic flat per-device public key
  • Some X.509 = hierarchy that may have X.509 certs carried in COSE headers
  • ECDAA and = other variants of DAA that may have other things in COSE headers
  • Group keys = like FIDO, Android and this proposal
  • Symmetric schemes, either per-device = or group
  • TLS (particularly for attestation results)
  • Other new = crypto protocol...
 
COSE, JOSE, TLS, CMS and = such all provide headers / parameters to carry things like key IDs to = make all of these schemes work.
 
Using UEID for the key ID for = per-device keys is probably mostly OK because it is exactly using the = semantics of the UEID. There=E2=80=99s not really any overloading.
 
GEID used for a key ID and something = else would be overloading. Better to clearly define separate claims for = device types, models and such.
 
I=E2=80=99d suggest defining a group = key ID header for COSE (and JOSE) and using that instead of inventing = the GEID claim. It would be even cooler and more useful to write a draft = and standardize privacy-preserving attestation signing for COSE. It = would be really beneficial for lots of people doing attestation that = need to solve the privacy problem. Maybe FIDO and Android would = eventually adopt it someday.
 
If using the group key ID header, = you=E2=80=99d leave out the UEID, so the number of bytes transmitted is = the same (if you put the UEID in you=E2=80=99d break the privacy = preservation).
 
Keeping claims separate from security = header parameters also keeps the SW stack simpler and cleaner. To verify = typical COSE:
- Parse the COSE headers = to get the key ID and look up the key
- Verify the signature and get the = payload
- Decode the sig-checked = claims in the payload
 
If you depend on the claims to verify = the signature:
- Decode the COSE = structure to get the unverified payload
- Decode the unverified claims to get = the key ID and look up the key
- Verify the signature and get the payload
- Decode the sig-checked claims in the = payload again
 
LL
 
 
 



On Mar 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> = wrote:
 
It seems the purpose for = using group ID (GEID) instead of a device ID (UEID) is for privacy = reasons. UEIDs can be used to track device instance. This violates the = pseudonymity/unlinkability requirement (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6973#page-18). Therefore, = if the device is operating in a privacy protected mode it might opt to = use a GEID instead of a UEID as its identity claim/evidence. 

Keep in mind that keyID is also potentially privacy = sensitive. Therefore, the keyID in privacy sensitive mode should refer = to a privacy preserving / group key. For example, in FIDO there is = support for DAA keys (I think?). 

The use of identifier claims and key IDs should be consistent = with the privacy protection requirements. Either GEID is a privacy = preserving equivalent to UEID (and a group attestation key is used to = attest when in privacy protected modes). Or key IDs double as = identifiers which seems to suggest UEID and GEID are unnecessary. 

However, since a device may have multiple keys over its = lifetime (and therefore multiple key IDs) the value of identifiers (UEID = / GEID) being distinct from key IDs is that the device / group identity = persists even though keys are revoked/replaced/refreshed.

-Ned

On 3/25/20, = 9:55 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf ofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

   Hi Laurence,
   potentially, I just realized, it could = serve the purpose of matching the 
   Authenticator Moodel of a FIDO = Authenticator and therefore might help 
   the peer that the Atttester is talking to = understand the format it has 
   to expect being incoming based on the = additional input of a FIDO 
   Metadata-Service (aka the = Authentcator-Model that is called, IIRC?). Any 
   structure of that kind would help a = Verifier to better... "guess" 
   (well.. it probably is the output of some = kind of negotiation), whether 
   it is, e.g. FIDO or RIV?

   Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

   Henk

   On 25.03.20 17:46, Laurence Lundblade = wrote:


A GEID of similar structure to a UEID =  seems like a possibility, but 
what exactly = is purpose of such a GEID? What does the RP do with it? 
What does = the verifier do with it?

An RP will use the = UEID to track the unique, specific device. That is 
its clearly = stated purpose.

In some designs, a verifier = may use the UEID to identify the 
verification = key, but that is not the UEID=E2=80=99s purpose. It a useful 
side-effect.

If the purpose of a = GEID is solely for the verifier to identify the 
verification = key, then I don=E2=80=99t think it is should be a GEID. It should 
be key = id.

So for me this kind of hinges on what a = GEID will mean for the RP. What 
are the = groupings it gives and how are they meaningful to an RP?
LL





On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com 
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
Is a GEID structurally different from a EUID? I think = currently a EUID 
is either a 128-bit or 256-bit bstr. I assume the semantics = of 
uniqueness differ.
*From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on 
behalf of = Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com<mailto:Simon.Frost@arm.com>>
*Date:*Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 8:47 AM
*To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>, "rats@ietf.org 
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
*Subject:*[Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member
We had an internal discussion in response to some changes in = PSA which 
have elaborated the definition of an Instance Attestation Key = (IAK) so 
that it may either be =E2=80=9Cunique to each device or a = collection of 
identical devices=E2=80=9D. The definition of the Identity = claim is now a 
value that identifies the IAK. This has been done to support = entity 
grouping for (some) privacy scenarios.
While we = have an EAT Profile for PSA that uses a full set of custom 
claims, our = intent has always been to be to migrate as many claims as 
possible to = the standard once the RATS work is complete. Previously, 
there has = been a direct analogy betweenarm_psa_UEIDand the standard 
UEID. With = this change though, we would have to move away from this. 
The current = description of UEID makes it clear that it must be device 
world = unique. There is some discussion 
(https://ietf-rats-wg.github.io/eat/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html#nam= e-ueid-privacy-considerations) 
of the group = scenario, but the only statement about the claim 
situation is = that =E2=80=9CIt will often be the case that tokens will not have 
a UEID for = these reasons=E2=80=9D.
In the privacy scenario, it is = still desirable to have an entity 
identity = claim, for use by a verifier or for general usage. The 
options seem = to be:
a/ If the entity is unique, include an UEID claim, = otherwise include a 
custom group claim. It seems a pity to encourage = diversification 
between profiles.
b/ If the entity is unique, = include an UEID claim, otherwise use a new 
standard = GEID claim
c/ punt this problem out to the kid of the COSE = wrapper. This would 
ignore any more general uses of group identities.
Of these, b/ (introduce a new standard GEID claim) seems to = make the 
most sense and is the option we would propose to the WG.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Simon
Simon Frost
Senior Principal Systems Solution = Architect, ATG, Arm
Mob: +44 7855 265691
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any = attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the = intended 
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not = disclose 
the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or = store or 
copy the information in any medium. Thank you.



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


   _____________________________________________= __
   RATS mailing list
   RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
 
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
= --Apple-Mail=_D93EA4D6-E5DA-49C2-8078-93BA77BA520B-- From nobody Fri Mar 27 10:34:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AAE3A0FD8 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:33:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8H8UrmVSWe6 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D669E3A0F9D for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Hsr2jT8cQXZxOHsr3j9GH7; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:33:13 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=R5B95uZX c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=7CQSdrXTAAAA:8 a=_hK6EUOQByftzJWKJZEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=YG3Ht6hDksvwzeR5:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=a-qgeE7W1pNrGK8U0ZQC:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BBDD5784-D5BF-4670-9CB0-1F7795FCF0D5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:33:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz To: Thomas Fossati References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGwIiRZWjSb2H8RVah9CtSEbZhH9c0AIqbnM/0v3MHZdi0rGFu2a7wQFn8C6pOYJNkUjykwcADEyyDxLX0mSvpQMg3gXGeSp82kawtrXoUhi7+JqKOHX zte5G/LNlR8wNoWlIIO2rL6/IiNeQ3hegNlYryh9p3p+I6/iDYmXvIP+19AcpQjVFXtRBUw+mfuuozmGoBWOLT9fJ3CUuHKKpIUPpPJQ7OmYV3ZYlk+AnTHx FpzUoc+O8AnA1kMMeoWqbK0VYflp19CyDEX02gYw5fw= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 17:34:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BBDD5784-D5BF-4670-9CB0-1F7795FCF0D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 27, 2020, at 4:03 AM, Thomas Fossati = wrote: >=20 > In particular, there might be attributes of an attesting endpoint = which > are not necessarily related to the signing key. For example, the > linking to certification data, and more generally anything that has a > chance to change during the lifetime of the device (or is not known at > manufacturing time) is more easily supplied via endorsements to the > verifier. In my view, EUID/EGID is the handle to all this data, which > MAY include the key used to verify the signature. Ahhh. There=E2=80=99s the source of the issue: what bits in attestation = evidence give the binding to the endorsement? Since I didn=E2=80=99t understand endorsements very well until Berlin, = there=E2=80=99s nothing that I=E2=80=99ve (consciously) put into EAT to = handle that. Seems like a critical point to be addressed in EAT and in architecture. = :-) LL --Apple-Mail=_BBDD5784-D5BF-4670-9CB0-1F7795FCF0D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Mar 27, 2020, at 4:03 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote:

In particular, there might be = attributes of an attesting endpoint which
are not necessarily related to the signing key.  For = example, the
linking to = certification data, and more generally anything that has a
chance to change during the = lifetime of the device (or is not known at
manufacturing time) is more easily supplied via endorsements = to the
verifier. =  In my view, EUID/EGID is the handle to all this data, = which
MAY include = the key used to verify the signature.

Ahhh. There=E2=80=99s the source of the issue: = what bits in attestation evidence give the binding to the = endorsement?

Since I didn=E2=80=99t = understand endorsements very well until Berlin, there=E2=80=99s nothing = that I=E2=80=99ve (consciously) put into EAT to handle = that.

Seems like a critical point to = be addressed in EAT and in architecture. :-)

LL


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ORSMSX123.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , Thomas Fossati CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Henk Birkholz Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member Thread-Index: AQHWAsKRdD+aXklc+0GMpNNrohEb06hZ+cQAgAACJwD//6Z5AIAB9zeA///UPgCAAVC7AIAAbNMA//+XloA= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:19:30 +0000 Message-ID: <0BF24EA2-0ADB-432E-BBFC-006C264FCCBE@intel.com> References: <33f462bb-979e-80cc-9c27-af1e3b77d5e6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <7C94FAC2-AADB-4397-A50D-4FBB11EFCABA@intel.com> <4F616CB6-6F42-43CE-94A6-ADD155900535@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 x-originating-ip: [10.251.10.112] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0BF24EA20ADB432EBBFC006C264FCCBEintelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID where an instance is a group member 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DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xo5TU6Uc1xgT for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-4.smtp.github.com (out-4.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9CB3A0C7C for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-cde56e0.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-cde56e0.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.25.52]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89851C60618 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:16:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 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X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:16:51 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/timestamp Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: f740a3aab835ec1f193f970e69faabd242a80c30 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/f740a3aab835ec1f193f970e69faabd242a80c30 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-03-27 (Fri, 27 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- clarify iat claim; remove age claim; add timestamp to location From nobody Fri Mar 27 14:17:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F211A3A0C2A for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OF-Vr0TsHLkO for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-18.smtp.github.com (out-18.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB8863A0991 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:17:16 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1585343836; bh=HFsbH2qLq5xlp9RVB2OCOIduNe6NYqk2igUlygt3pt8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=zqsJjr8rIFfIrplhO2nfgwljmkDRcZ3uLMVrZPtDagIkFwOWP0E/ofKDb1uZIHk0Q /C59arCBeYKR/knQWyyvLqeNAJUl0AkrLNk3qz+UwD2tpK+X1pYDMwY8UfCUSbRHA0 z2HD/FSEENyVAg9K9DL5nny6dfRHIBLJmIPbbqBE= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 511ebb: Script updating gh-pages from f740a3a. 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[... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:17:26 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 46e906b22ef2463dc52864c31455e893d1bbdecc https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/46e906b22ef2463dc52864c31455e893d1bbdecc Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-03-27 (Fri, 27 Mar 2020) Changed paths: M archive.json M issues.html M issues.js Log Message: ----------- Script updating archive at 2020-03-27T21:17:18Z. [ci skip] From nobody Fri Mar 27 14:41:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DC03A0CDB for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:41:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nc4pYt7qXGIt for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-09.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-09.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1913A0CC7 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HwjUjgIizbjyjHwjVjojI3; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:41:41 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TuOYewfh c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:117 a=t2DvPg6iSvRzsOFYbaV4uQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=0XtbOteLAAAA:20 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=K6EGIJCdAAAA:8 a=i0EeH86SAAAA:8 a=v20VcEmKhVLZ8KEW_kMA:9 a=9s508oDDYd11Rc9A:21 a=VxkyzJO6BIeiilCX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qlkj2to1iGP35JD_HWkA:9 a=Io0l8_gtaBNWAetE:21 a=8qUlpG59BysQp3Y0:21 a=oZ4sgjIQdhXE6-uE:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=L6pVIi0Kn1GYQfi8-iRI:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: lgl@island-resort.com From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <2884CEEB-5742-4440-AA0C-11AFEF55C1FD@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0361AD8D-5DCE-4D72-B642-A4ABA7053E47" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 14:41:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "Panwei (William)" , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" References: <817d60e7ab6b41d5bad81b7702002397@huawei.com> <870488EF-4981-44CA-A6B9-65E176D380FF@island-resort.com> <1aa8a5c4038144f89ccf9d88a514fb6e@huawei.com> <52200DF9-4B74-4408-A209-18B42DB48ACF@island-resort.com> <666BE797-9C1A-4D04-BD4A-7359C39FC903@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKLha7YBgLYN2Qj6ciLKRLnKzV/EBPRTatBQGIuccaunHAhjx9MNOUEVrfcdaD5rI8Hspe1FT+md5G7W1q1VDZlKl4yg5fo4jYnSzmlveoilitn8+ND5 RNTFiIFpqIJaZuOXm+RuIlXqdZmCaM8SFGgX001LXxWyDLf4VjeRLaMb0CJyqipei4+JVHGX+c5EUJRkts7qnES43laUYG6O/Vjbc/r9N4lS369ebUmk5JLp wr/cVdvUFWxlkgPmz30DSEH1KCDr0cCKp0yYP2+il7/HNPNFaMU0OAYgQYyvIEZ/ Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] EAT timestamps (was Re: Attestation Timing Definitions) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:41:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0361AD8D-5DCE-4D72-B642-A4ABA7053E47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s my first pass at incorporating the timing definitions = into EAT. A PR is here . Acquisition time =E2=80=94 time(a) =E2=80=94 This is the time that the = value for a claim came to be, for example the time a measurement or a = sample was taken. This value may be stored for a long time before the = Attester collects it. Examples include a GPS sample taken before = entering a basement, a SW measurement taken at boot or a SW integrity = measurement taken by a run time integrity checker (RTIC). Each claim, or even sub parts of a claim can have its own Acquisition = Time. There is no generic means for time stamping a claim, instead the = definition of each claim for which Acquisition Time is important should = include a data item for an Acquisition Time. This corresponds to Eric=E2=80=99s time(a). Maybe you=E2=80=99ll change = my mind, but time(b) doesn=E2=80=99t seem important. Time(c) and time(d) don=E2=80=99t need to be recorded in attestation = evidence or results. Issued At Time =E2=80=94 time(e) =E2=80=94 This is the time that a token = is created, the time when all the claims are collected and the token is = signed. For simplicity, it is assumed that all the claims are collected = at the same time and that is the same time that the token is signed. = Each submodule may have have an issued at time. Though it is not = expected to be common, this makes submodules a way to group claims that = are collected together at a different time. The Acquisition Time can be absolute or relative. If relative, it is to = time(e) and is filled in by the attester when collecting the claims = values. The Issued At Time is always absolute or absent, never relative (If we = allow it to be relative, we have add the complexity of distinguishing = the collection time from the signing time and assume the signing time is = the conveyance time as we don=E2=80=99t want any claims that are not = signed). Time(g) is IssuedAtTime for the attestation results. The Expiration and Not-Before Time claims typically only go in the = Attestation Result, the output of the Verifier, but they may occur in = Attestation Evidence too. Like the Issued At Time, they are per = submodule and absolute. When they go in the Attestation Result, they = represent some recommendation by the Verifier as to the validity period, = typically how long until the token is no longer considered trustworthy. = It is more meaningful for the Verifier to make this recommendation than = for an Attester to claim this about itself. Expiration is time(h). I don=E2=80=99t think time(i) or time(l) needs to be recorded. Whether time(k) needs to be recorded depends on what passport assembly = is. LL > On Mar 13, 2020, at 2:33 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ned, > =20 > I fully agree that there are similarities between "Stamped Passport = Model" and "Composite Device". For both, a Verifier needs to understand = the implicit trust relationships between the various signed claims. > =20 > The way I internalize your thinking below is that we need glue that = can express relationships between independently signed claims. And = beyond the 'transited Attestation Result' claim, I also believe there = will be a 'sequence of claim creation' (i.e., a 'provable relative = timing') claim. > =20 > Thinking of some possible future RATS drafts, I suspect that some = claim language could be adopted to express these compositions. With = such a claim language, even structures paralleling those of DICE are = conceivable. Also conceivable are needs for the trusted discovery of = valid Attester + Verifier structures by Relying Parties. =20 > =20 > In the short term, I don't think these complexities need to be = included in the architecture document. To make progress, I am simply = asking that the terminology of the architecture document doesn't = marginalize or make harder to describe the types of end-to-end = architectures being explored with "Composite Device" and "Stamped = Passport". > =20 > Per your note below on codifying the term "Passport". You are right = that the architecture now just describes the "Passport Model". As long = as somebody doesn't later try to define a "Passport", and then claim = that a "Stamped Passport" is not really a valid type of "Passport", I = am good. > =20 > Eric > =20 > =20 > From: Smith, Ned, March 13, 2020 2:11 PM >=20 > The =E2=80=9CExtended|stamped Passport Model=E2=80=9D is a similar = pattern to the =E2=80=9CComposite Device=E2=80=9D scenario where = Evidence isn=E2=80=99t simply forwarded by a lead Attester but the lead = Attester supplies a =E2=80=98transited evidence=E2=80=99 claim as part = of the additional Evidence it supplies.=20 > =20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure RATS arch intended for the various =E2=80=98models=E2= =80=99 to codify data structures e.g. a =E2=80=98Passport=E2=80=99 or if = the intent is merely to observe the flow of Evidence and Attestation = Results according to the named model. Maybe there is a similar need for = a special type of claim that reinforces an expected flow or sequencing = between roles? If in the Passport Model the Verifier supplies = Attestation Results to the Entity that hosts the originating Attester = role, then should the Verifier or Attester do something in the = Attestation Results or in newly minted Evidence to acknowledge this?=20 > =20 > For example, the Attester could create new Evidence with a = =E2=80=98transited attestation result=E2=80=99 claim. The entity hosting = the Relying Party might then host a Verifier role that specializes in = checking for Passport Model compliance by verifying the =E2=80=98transited= Attestation Results=E2=80=99 claim. Possibly, the Relying Party has a = policy that allows/disallows use of a Passport model (or a hybrid). = Simply defining a =E2=80=98transited attestation results=E2=80=99 claim = seems to address all possible models whether Passport, Background Check = or some hybrid we haven=E2=80=99t though of yet.=20 > =20 > Does anyone disagree? > =20 > -Ned > =20 > Copied text from below: > =E2=80=9CIt seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that = in the Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results = through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be = called Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. > In the case Wei is showing, the Attester would take the = signature from the Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') = and sign these within a TPM. This becomes a standalone element = delivered parallel with the original Attestation Results from time(i). =20= > =20 > If simply reusing "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS = Architecture document need to be updated to cover cases where the = passport is enhanced like above. Do we want to call this an "Extended = Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something else? =E2=80=9C > =20 > =20 > From: RATS > on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" > > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 11:49 AM > To: Laurence Lundblade >, "Panwei (William)" = > > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions > =20 > Hi Laurence, > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade, March 12, 2020 1:05 PM >=20 >=20 > Hi Wei, > =20 > below... >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Panwei (William) = > wrote: > =20 > =20 > =20 > Regards & Thanks! > =E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan > =E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8= Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. > =20 > From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com = ]=20 > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:33 AM > To: Panwei (William) > > Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) >; rats@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation Timing Definitions > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei (William) = > wrote: > =20 > I think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the = entity of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in = this case the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to = that entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence = and the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results. > =20 > So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the Attester just sends = Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the Relying Party, and = the passport is simply the Attestation Result.=20 > ...----------. ...----------. = ..---------------. > | Attester | | Verifier | | Relying Party | > '----------' '----------' '---------------' > time(a) | | > time(b) | | > | time(c) | > |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | > time(e) | | > |------Evidence---------------->time(f) | > | time(g){@time(h)} | > |<-----Attestation Result-------time(i) | > | | time(c=E2=80=99)= > |<-----nonce 2----------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)= > time(e=E2=80=99) | | > |------Attestation Result---------------------->time(l) > | | time(h) > =20 > =20 > This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) indicates the = Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the definition of a = time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to securely include nonce2 = is if the Attester is signing which implies it is creating Evidence. > [Wei] The Attester sends messages to the RP, can it sign the whole = message whose payload contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99 field and a = =E2=80=98Attestation Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be creating = Evidence when the Attester is signing? >=20 > =20 > =20 > The main purpose of this diagram is to label points in time and = time(e) is defined as an Attester signing Evidence, so choose another = letter if it is not signing Evidence.=20 > time(e) may have a signing event. E.g., a nonce may be = combined evidence in a TPM proves the evidence was available on specific = attester no later that time(e). This possible action of signing has = been included within the originally proposed definition. > =20 > I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time values in = EAT so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT to cover = all the flows.=20 > =20 > =20 > If this is to be a Rats architecture diagram, then it=E2=80=99s about = more than labeling points in time and should start talking about formats = and names for that Attester signing that is not Evidence.=20 > The original purpose of the thread was the proper naming of = time points. The sequence diagrams are shown to help demonstrate how = the times might be used. =20 > =20 > Or maybe call it proprietary format or a TBD format. It also begs the = question of the signing keys get set up and distributed, which is = complicated stuff. > I absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. needs to be = addressed. This is why drafts like = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation and = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist. Such discussions are best = made in those deployment contexts, rather than in the architecture = draft. That is unless we are looking to significantly increase the = complexity of draft-ietf-rats-architecture. =20 > =20 > It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats architecture doc that in the = Passport model that the Attester just passes Attestation Results through = without further signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be called = Passport if there is additional signing in the Attester. > In the case Wei is showing, the Attester would take the = signature from the Attestation Results time(i) and nonce from time(d') = and sign these within a TPM. This becomes a standalone element = delivered parallel with the original Attestation Results from time(i). =20= > =20 > If simply reusing "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS = Architecture document need to be updated to cover cases where the = passport is enhanced like above. Do we want to call this an "Extended = Passport Model", a "Stamped Passport Model", something else? =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is doing is = convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It can=E2=80=99t= incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way. > =20 > The only way to use nonce2 in the simple passport model is for it to = go along side of nonce1 and arrive before time(e) to be part of = Evidence. It could go direct to the Attester from the RP or it could go = through the Verifier to the RP. > [Wei] I think this is also a reasonable case that the Evidence should = include nonce from the RP and this may bring different considerations of = timeliness. >=20 > =20 > Note that the latest EAT draft has an array of nonces rather than just = one to accommodate this. > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > And for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and Verifier. > For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester. > ....----------. ....------------. = ....------------------------------------. > | Attester | | Verifier 1 | | Verifier 2 = | Relying Party | > '----------' '------------' = '------------------------------------' > time(a) | | = | > time(b) | | = | > | time(c) | = | > |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d) | = | > time(e) | | = | > |------Evidence 1-------------->time(f) | = | > | time(g){@time(h)} | = | > |<-----Attestation Result 1-----time(i) | = | > | | | = | > time(a=E2=80=99) | = | | > time(b=E2=80=99) | = | | > | | time(c=E2=80= =99) | > |<-----nonce 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80= =99) | > time(e=E2=80=99) | = | | > |------Attestation Result 1 + Evidence 2----------->time(f') = time(l) > | | = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)} | > | | = time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99) > | | | = time(h) > | | | = time(h=E2=80=99) > =20 > The flow seems technically correct, but a few comments: > =20 > - Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from the RP. = If nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly from the = RP to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I think) = with much less trouble. > [Wei] Same as the previous one, nonce 2 arriving before time(e) is a = reasonable case that should be considered. >=20 > Or maybe it is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of = Verifier 2 to impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe = even Verifier 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while = Verifier 1 is a dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated = by the HW vendor. > [Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there may be multiple = Verifiers for different purposes. >=20 > =20 > - If using dual verifiers and using EAT, then Evidence 2 has three = claims: nonce 2, issued at time and Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, = right? Attestation Result 1 might be TPM format which implies EAT = submods have to allow for TPM format attestations. > [Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not appropriate to say Evidence contains = Attestation Result, they may be transited in the same message, but they = are semantically different. So the message sent by the Attester to the = RP has three claims, of which the first two being seen as Evidence and = the last one being seen as Attestation Result. >=20 > =20 > Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation Result as a = claim in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did some of the = work. The second Verifier would need some means to trust the first = Verifier. I think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs and HW = measurements and the second one being an ML-based system fits here. I = suspect we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims over = the years, some wonderful, some horrible. > =20 > But, maybe that is not what is needed in this case, if you define the = second signing to not be Evidence. > I think it is Evidence > =20 > =20 > Anyway, the main thought is to change that time(e) to time (n) if it = is not an Attester signing Evidence. > It is an Attester signing Evidence. >=20 > Eric > =20 > =20 > LL > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_0361AD8D-5DCE-4D72-B642-A4ABA7053E47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Here=E2=80=99s my first pass at incorporating the timing = definitions into EAT. A PR is here.

Acquisition= time =E2=80=94 time(a) =E2=80=94 This is the time that the value for a = claim came to be, for example the time a measurement or a sample was = taken. This value may be stored for a long time before the Attester = collects it. Examples include a GPS sample taken before entering a = basement, a SW measurement taken at boot or a SW integrity measurement = taken by a run time integrity checker (RTIC).

Each claim, or even sub parts of a = claim can have its own Acquisition Time. There is no generic means for = time stamping a claim, instead the definition of each claim for = which Acquisition Time is important should include a data item = for an Acquisition Time.

This corresponds to Eric=E2=80=99s = time(a). Maybe you=E2=80=99ll change my mind, but time(b) doesn=E2=80=99t = seem important.

Time(c) and time(d) don=E2=80=99t need to be recorded in = attestation evidence or results.


Issued = At Time =E2=80=94 time(e) =E2=80=94 This is the time that a token is = created, the time when all the claims are collected and the token is = signed. For simplicity, it is assumed that all the claims are collected = at the same time and that is the same time that the token is signed. =  Each submodule may have have an issued at time. Though it is not = expected to be common, this makes submodules a way to group claims that = are collected together at a different time.

The Acquisition Time can be = absolute or relative. If relative, it is to time(e) and is filled in by = the attester when collecting the claims values.

The Issued At Time is always absolute = or absent, never relative (If we allow it to be relative, we have add = the complexity of distinguishing the collection time from the signing = time and assume the signing time is the conveyance time as we don=E2=80=99= t want any claims that are not signed).


Time(g) is IssuedAtTime for the attestation = results.


The Expiration and Not-Before Time = claims typically only go in the Attestation Result, the output of the = Verifier, but they may occur in Attestation Evidence too. Like the = Issued At Time, they are per submodule and absolute. When they go in the = Attestation Result, they represent some recommendation by the Verifier = as to the validity period, typically how long until the token is no = longer considered trustworthy. It is more meaningful for the Verifier to = make this recommendation than for an Attester to claim this about = itself.

Expiration is time(h).

I don=E2=80=99t think time(i) or = time(l) needs to be recorded.


Whether time(k) needs to be recorded depends on what passport = assembly is.

LL



On Mar 13, 2020, at 2:33 PM, = Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi = Ned,
 
I fully = agree that there are similarities between "Stamped Passport Model" and = "Composite Device".  For both, a Verifier needs to understand the = implicit trust relationships between the various signed claims.
 
The way I = internalize your thinking below is that we need glue that can express = relationships between independently signed claims.  And beyond the = 'transited Attestation Result' claim, I also believe there will be a = 'sequence of claim creation' (i.e., a 'provable relative timing') = claim.
 
Thinking of some possible future RATS drafts, I suspect that = some claim language could be adopted to express these = compositions.  With such a claim language, even structures = paralleling those of DICE are conceivable.  Also conceivable are = needs for the trusted discovery of valid Attester + Verifier structures = by Relying Parties.  
 
In the = short term, I don't think these complexities need to be included in the = architecture document.  To make progress, I am simply asking that = the terminology of the architecture document doesn't marginalize or make = harder to describe the types of end-to-end architectures being explored = with "Composite Device" and "Stamped Passport".
 
Per your = note below on codifying the term "Passport".  You are right that = the architecture now just describes the "Passport Model".   As = long as somebody doesn't later try to define a "Passport", and then = claim that a "Stamped Passport" is not really a  valid type of = "Passport", I am good.
 
Eric
 
 
From: Smith, Ned, March 13, 2020 = 2:11 PM

The =E2=80=9CExtended|stamped = Passport Model=E2=80=9D is a similar pattern to the =E2=80=9CComposite = Device=E2=80=9D scenario where Evidence isn=E2=80=99t simply forwarded = by a lead Attester but the lead Attester supplies a =E2=80=98transited = evidence=E2=80=99 claim as part of the additional Evidence it = supplies. 
 
I=E2=80=99m = not sure RATS arch intended for the various =E2=80=98models=E2=80=99 to = codify data structures e.g. a =E2=80=98Passport=E2=80=99 or if the = intent is merely to observe the flow of Evidence and Attestation Results = according to the named model. Maybe there is a similar need for a = special type of claim that reinforces an expected flow or sequencing = between roles? If in the Passport Model the Verifier supplies = Attestation Results to the Entity that hosts the originating Attester = role, then should the Verifier or Attester do something in the = Attestation Results or in newly minted Evidence to acknowledge = this? 
 
For = example, the Attester could create new Evidence with a =E2=80=98transited = attestation result=E2=80=99 claim. The entity hosting the Relying Party = might then host a Verifier role that specializes in checking for = Passport Model compliance by verifying the =E2=80=98transited = Attestation Results=E2=80=99 claim.  Possibly, the Relying Party = has a policy that allows/disallows use of a Passport model (or a = hybrid). Simply defining a =E2=80=98transited attestation results=E2=80=99= claim seems to address all possible models whether Passport, Background = Check or some hybrid we haven=E2=80=99t though of yet. 
 
Does anyone = disagree?
 
-Ned
 
Copied text = from below:
=E2=80=9CIt seems pretty clear to = me in the Rats architecture doc that in the Passport model that the = Attester just passes Attestation Results through without further = signing. I don=E2=80=99t think it should be called Passport if there is = additional signing in the Attester.
<eric>  In the case Wei is showing,  = the Attester would take the signature from the Attestation Results = time(i) and nonce from time(d') and sign these within a TPM.  This = becomes a standalone element delivered parallel with the original = Attestation Results from time(i).  
 
If simply reusing = "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS Architecture document = need to be updated to cover cases where the passport is enhanced like = above.   Do we want to call this an "Extended Passport Model", = a "Stamped Passport Model", something else?  =E2=80=9C
 
 
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Thursday, March 12, = 2020 at 11:49 AM
To: Laurence Lundblade = <lgl@island-resort.com>, = "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation = Timing Definitions
 
Hi = Laurence,
 

From: Laurence Lundblade, March = 12, 2020 1:05 PM

Hi Wei,
 
below...



On Mar 11, 2020, at 7:24 = PM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:
 
 
 
Regards & Thanks!
=E6=BD=98=E4=BC=9F Wei Pan
=E5=8D=8E=E4=B8=BA=E6=8A=80=E6=9C=AF=E6=9C=89=E9=99=90=E5=85=AC= =E5=8F=B8 Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
 
From: Laurence Lundblade [mailto:lgl@island-resort.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 = 1:33 AM
To: Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com>
Cc: Eric = Voit (evoit) <evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation = Timing Definitions
 
 




On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:20 PM, Panwei = (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:
 
I = think Ned=E2=80=99s email also has detailedly explained that the entity = of Relying Party can also take on the role of Verifier, and in this case = the Attester sends Evidence + previous Attestation Result to that = entity, within that entity the Verifier role processes the Evidence and = the Relying Party role consumes the two Attestation Results.
 
So, for a simple nonce-based Passport Model, the = Attester just sends Attestation Result produced by the Verifier to the = Relying Party, and the passport is simply the Attestation Result. 
   = ...----------.          =            = ...----------.  ..---------------.
   | Attester = |           =           | Verifier = |  | Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '----------'  '---------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           = |
        = |<-----nonce 1------------------time(d)&nb= sp;          |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;  |
        = |------Evidence---------------->time(f)     &n= bsp;     |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      time(g){@time(h)} |
        = |<-----Attestation = Result-------time(i)         =   |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |             = time(c=E2=80=99)
        = |<-----nonce 2----------------------------= ------time(d=E2=80=99)
      = time(e=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;  |
      =   |------Attestation = Result---------------------->time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;  =       |      &= nbsp;      time(h)
 
 
This still doesn=E2=80=99t seem right. time(e=E2=80=99) = indicates the Attester is signing and creating Evidence because of the = definition of a time id label (e). Additionally, the only way to = securely include nonce2 is if the Attester is signing which implies it = is creating Evidence.

[Wei] The Attester sends messages to the RP, can = it sign the whole message whose payload contains a =E2=80=98nonce=E2=80=99= field and a =E2=80=98Attestation Result=E2=80=99 field? Must it only be = creating Evidence when the Attester is signing?

 
 
The main purpose of this = diagram is to label points in time and time(e) is defined as an Attester = signing Evidence, so choose another letter if it is not signing = Evidence. 
<eric> time(e) may have a signing event.  E.g., a = nonce may be combined evidence in a TPM proves the evidence was = available on specific attester no later that time(e).   This = possible action of signing has been included within the originally = proposed definition.
 
I am working on mapping the time(*)=E2=80=99s into the time = values in EAT so we know if we have the necessary claims defined in EAT = to cover all the flows. 
 
 
If this is to be a Rats = architecture diagram, then it=E2=80=99s about more than labeling points = in time and should start talking about formats and names for that = Attester signing that is not Evidence. 
<eric> The original = purpose of the thread was the proper naming of time points.  The = sequence diagrams are shown to help demonstrate how the times might be = used.    
 
Or maybe = call it proprietary format or a TBD format. It also begs the question of = the signing keys get set up and distributed, which is complicated = stuff.
<eric> I absolutely agree that all the signing, etc. = needs to be addressed.  This is why drafts like = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation and  = draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing exist.   Such discussions = are best made in those deployment contexts, rather than in the = architecture draft.  That is unless we are looking to significantly = increase the complexity of draft-ietf-rats-architecture.  
 
It seems pretty clear to me in the Rats = architecture doc that in the Passport model that the Attester just = passes Attestation Results through without further signing. I don=E2=80=99= t think it should be called Passport if there is additional signing in = the Attester.
<eric>  In the case Wei is showing,  the = Attester would take the signature from the Attestation Results time(i) = and nonce from time(d') and sign these within a TPM.  This becomes = a standalone element delivered parallel with the original Attestation = Results from time(i).  
 
If simply reusing = "Passport" is confusing, the wording in the RATS Architecture document = need to be updated to cover cases where the passport is enhanced like = above.   Do we want to call this an "Extended Passport Model", = a "Stamped Passport Model", something else?   



 
By my understanding in simple passport all the attester is = doing is convey the exact bits it got from the Verifier to the RP. It = can=E2=80=99t incorporate nonce2 in any meaningful way.
 
The only way to use nonce2 in the = simple passport model is for it to go along side of nonce1 and arrive = before time(e) to be part of Evidence. It could go direct to the = Attester from the RP or it could go through the Verifier to the = RP.

[Wei] I think this is also a reasonable case that the = Evidence should include nonce from the RP and this may bring different = considerations of timeliness.

 
Note that the latest EAT draft has an = array of nonces rather than just one to accommodate this.
 




 
 
And= for a complex model, which is the diagram 2 that Eric drew, the = Attester will produce another Evidence to be sent together with the = Attestation Result to the entity of Relying Party and = Verifier.
For example, in the case of Eric=E2=80=99s draft = (draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing), Evidence 1 is about the PCR = value information, Attestation Result 1 says =E2=80=98boot processes = have been verified successfully=E2=80=99, Evidence 2 is about time and = changes since the Attester was last verified, Attestation Result 2 says = =E2=80=99time and changes are acceptable because only 5 minutes have = passed since last verification and no changes happened=E2=80=99, then = the Relying Party consumes these two Attestation Results to establish = trust on the Attester.
   = ....----------.          = ;           = ....------------.      = ....------------------------------------.
   | Attester = |            &= nbsp;        | Verifier 1 = |      | Verifier 2     = |     Relying Party |
   = '----------'          &n= bsp;          = '------------'      = '------------------------------------'
      = time(a)           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b)           &= nbsp;           =       |      &= nbsp;            = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(c)           &= nbsp;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |<-----nonce = 1------------------time(d)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(e)           &= nbsp;      =            | &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Evidence = 1-------------->time(f)        =        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;      = time(g){@time(h)}     = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |<-----Attestation Result = 1-----time(i)          &= nbsp;    = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(a=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;            =       = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;         |
      = time(b=E2=80=99)       =             &n= bsp;        |   &nb= sp;            = ;   = |            &= nbsp;         |
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(c=E2=80=99)         &nbs= p;       |
        |<-----nonce = 2--------------------------------------time(d=E2=80=99)   &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
      time(e=E2=80=99)  =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p; |           = ;        = |            &= nbsp;         |
        |------Attestation = Result 1 + Evidence = 2----------->time(f')        &n= bsp;      time(l)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;    = time(g=E2=80=99){@time(h=E2=80=99)}      = |
       =  |           &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;         = |            &= nbsp;    time(i')-----AR 2----->time(l=E2=80=99)<= o:p class=3D"">
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;       time(h)
        = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;        = |            &= nbsp;      = |            &= nbsp;       time(h=E2=80=99)
 
The flow seems technically correct, but = a few comments:
 
- Seems like an awful lot of trouble just to add a nonce from = the RP. If nonce2 can be made to arrive before time(e) either directly = from the RP to the Attester or via Verifier 1 you get the same effect (I = think) with much less trouble.

[Wei] Same as the previous one, nonce 2 arriving = before time(e) is a reasonable case that should be = considered.

Or maybe it = is the job of Verifier 1 to check the PCRs and the job of Verifier 2 to = impose the policy related to the age of Evidence 1? Maybe even Verifier = 2 is a machine learning system run by a 3rd party while Verifier 1 is a = dumber system that just knows about valid PCRs operated by the HW = vendor.

[Wei] Yes, between the Attester and the RP there may be = multiple Verifiers for different purposes.

 
- If using dual verifiers and using = EAT, then Evidence 2 has three claims: nonce 2, issued at time and = Attestation Result 1 as a submodule, right? Attestation Result 1 might = be TPM format which implies EAT submods have to allow for TPM format = attestations.

[Wei] I think it=E2=80=99s not appropriate to = say Evidence contains Attestation Result, they may be transited in the = same message, but they are semantically different. So the message sent = by the Attester to the RP has three claims, of which the first two being = seen as Evidence and the last one being seen as Attestation = Result.

 
Generally speaking, it seems OK to have an Attestation Result = as a claim in Evidence. It means that some other Verifier did some of = the work. The second Verifier would need some means to trust the first = Verifier. I think my example of the first Verifier checking PCRs and HW = measurements and the second one being an ML-based system fits here. I = suspect we=E2=80=99re going to see all sorts of things in claims over = the years, some wonderful, some horrible.
 
But, maybe that is not what is needed = in this case, if you define the second signing to not be Evidence.
<eric> I think it = is Evidence
 
 
Anyway, the main thought is to change = that time(e) to time (n) if it is not an Attester signing Evidence.
<eric> It is an = Attester signing Evidence.

Eric
 
 
LL
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Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:10:04 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Timing considerations Thread-Index: AdYGzrqM+WPA91CfSkKVQV7zDoDBBQ== Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:10:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=dthaler@microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:600:9780:16f0:c80:fda6:2c8c:2e54] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b97a7f40-b3ea-497f-ecfe-08d7d4e6562a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR2101MB0963: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 0358535363 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BL0PR2101MB1027.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(376002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(55016002)(7116003)(966005)(10290500003)(9686003)(33656002)(8990500004)(8676002)(8936002)(2906002)(81156014)(478600001)(81166006)(3480700007)(66556008)(66476007)(52536014)(71200400001)(64756008)(186003)(6506007)(4744005)(76116006)(66946007)(66446008)(5660300002)(316002)(82950400001)(82960400001)(7696005)(86362001)(6916009); 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boundary="_000_BL0PR2101MB1027F218ED54C323DB6109E6A3CB0BL0PR2101MB1027_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b97a7f40-b3ea-497f-ecfe-08d7d4e6562a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2020 20:10:04.7815 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BFiW/Tu9EwMpgThL1mfbBwIPy8Ybbv6Y5qX5bLEanjhMPYy0xfsEQBvWUruGJMPxbyj3N6+p5H0RatJZKpp2oaBhGJdVsOORVk8W/Nbjtwc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR2101MB0963 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Timing considerations X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:10:08 -0000 --_000_BL0PR2101MB1027F218ED54C323DB6109E6A3CB0BL0PR2101MB1027_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In preparation for the meeting discussion tomorrow, I wanted to send this l= ink out to everyone to make sure people have a chance to see if beforehand as it contains my proposed text t= o be added to the architecture doc: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/75/files Others can feel free to add comments inline there. Dave --_000_BL0PR2101MB1027F218ED54C323DB6109E6A3CB0BL0PR2101MB1027_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In preparation for the meeting discussion tomorrow, = I wanted to send this link out to everyone to make sure

people have a chance to see if beforehand as it cont= ains my proposed text to be added to the architecture doc:

https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/75/fil= es

 

Others can feel free to add comments inline there.

 

Dave

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micalg=SHA1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7ae50fe1-3712-4847-23cc-08d7d586198a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2020 15:13:42.6102 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /yBVaOwtgJ6tjhb/jSdxxeVX7/DU2jbry0trpM4WtFv10ks3MN4TlhwS+Vfh01Ul X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR11MB3380 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Nine Event Definitions X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote ATtestation procedureS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 15:13:49 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_03FB_01D6074D.6876F130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In today's RATS WG call, there was a discussion on RATS timing definitions across use cases. Below are nine Event definitions which span multiple RATS use cases. Each of these nine Event definitions currently appear in a pull request to the Architecture document. (For those of you following the alias, you will have seen early versions of these definitions.) It is hoped that by including a common set of event type definitions in the Architecture document, we will have a language which can help us more formally frame similar characteristics between the use cases. And then we can build call flow / timing diagrams which hopefully expose these similarities. There are two asks from this email: (1) Do you want to propose one or more *additional* event types which you believe are common enough to be placed into the architecture document? (Note: that *not* having an Event type in the architecture document does not preclude you developing your own Event types. It just makes it harder for others to adopt your event definitions within their documents.) (2) Are there any issues with the names and definitions described below? ------------------------------ Nine Event Definitions ------------------------------ vg - Value Generation A value to appear in a claim was created ns - Nonce Sent A random number is generated and sent nr - Nonce Relayed A random number is passed through another entity eg - Evidence Generation An Attester collects claims and generates Evidence er - Evidence Relayed A Relying Party relays Evidence to a Verifier rg - Result Generation A Verifier appraises Evidence and generates an Attestation Result ra - Result Appraised The Relying Party appraises Attestation Results op - Operation Performed The Relying Party performs some operation in part driven by the current trustworthiness of the Attester rx - Result eXpiry An Attestation Result should no longer be accepted, according to the Verifier that generated them. Thanks! 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