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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:25:51 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Nine Event Definitions
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Hi Eric,
hi group,

now that the architecture is starting to become stable, we will update 
the current RATS TUDA I-D and pull new terms and concept references in.

This will include a mapping to the "remote attestation event types" that 
are proposed below. As TUDA is all about timestamps that makes a lot of 
sense. There were a few "purple" boxes that represent additional 
candidates to the list below in an older email from Eric. E.g., the 
"handle distribution" time. There is a counterpart to that (quite valid) 
candidate, that is the "loss of centrally time-bound freshness proof" 
due to clock drifts or restarts of "local relative tick counters" (these 
were addressed to some extend by the age Claim, too, I think) that are 
common in less secure environments. So there can be dedicated points in 
time, at which a proof of trustworthy time synchronization looses its 
validity - and a new "centrally time-bound freshness proof" is required 
and MUST be created and distributed, otherwise new streamed evidence 
would be rendered invalid.

There are probably a few other points of time that are of interest from 
the PoV that is TUDA and we will provide updates on that in the 
following days.

As an additional general comment: I find a clear differentiation of 
value generation, claim collection, and evidence creation is missing in 
the set of the very first two timestamp types. A lot of things can 
happen in these two durations and that could also render evidence invalid.

In summary, the TUDA authors find the work on "remote attestation event 
types" relevant and useful as a frame of reference in the RATS 
architecture and support the inclusion into the architecture.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 31.03.20 17:13, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> In today's RATS WG call, there was a discussion on RATS timing definitions
> across use cases.  Below are nine Event definitions which span multiple RATS
> use cases.  Each of these nine Event definitions currently appear in a pull
> request to the Architecture document.   (For those of you following the
> alias, you will have seen early versions of these definitions.)    It is
> hoped that by including a common set of event type definitions in the
> Architecture document, we will have a language which can help us more
> formally frame similar characteristics between the use cases.  And then we
> can build call flow / timing diagrams which hopefully expose these
> similarities.
> 
> There are two asks from this email:
> (1) Do you want to propose one or more *additional* event types which you
> believe are common enough to be placed into the architecture document?
> (Note: that *not* having an Event type in the architecture document does not
> preclude you developing your own Event types.  It just makes it harder for
> others to adopt your event definitions within their documents.)
> 
> (2) Are there any issues with the names and definitions described below?
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> Nine Event Definitions
> ------------------------------
> 
> vg - Value Generation
> A value to appear in a claim was created
> 
> ns - Nonce Sent
> A random number is generated and sent
> 
> nr - Nonce Relayed
> A random number is passed through another entity
> 
> eg - Evidence Generation
> An Attester collects claims and generates Evidence
> 
> er - Evidence Relayed
> A Relying Party relays Evidence to a Verifier
> 
> rg - Result Generation
> A Verifier appraises Evidence and generates an Attestation Result
> 
> ra - Result Appraised
> The Relying Party appraises Attestation Results
> 
> op - Operation Performed
> The Relying Party performs some operation in part driven by the current
> trustworthiness of the Attester
> 
> rx - Result eXpiry
> An Attestation Result should no longer be accepted, according to the
> Verifier that generated them.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> Eric
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Wed Apr  1 11:51:00 2020
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Nine Event Definitions
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> On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:13 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) =
<evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=A6
> (2) Are there any issues with the names and definitions described =
below?
>=20

Nonces don=E2=80=99t have to be random numbers, so suggest the changes =
below.=20

>=20
> ------------------------------
> Nine Event Definitions
> ------------------------------
>=20
> vg - Value Generation
> A value to appear in a claim was created
>=20
> ns - Nonce Sent
> A random number is generated and sent
The nonce was generated and sent.

>=20
> nr - Nonce Relayed
> A random number is passed through another entity
The nonce was relayed.

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:13 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">evoit=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=A6</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">(2) Are there any issues with =
the names and definitions described below?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Nonces =
don=E2=80=99t have to be random numbers, so suggest the changes =
below.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">------------------------------<br class=3D"">Nine Event =
Definitions<br class=3D"">------------------------------<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">vg - Value Generation<br class=3D"">A value to appear in a =
claim was created<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">ns - Nonce Sent<br =
class=3D""><strike class=3D"">A random number is generated and =
sent</strike></div></div></blockquote><div>The nonce was generated and =
sent.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">nr - Nonce Relayed<br =
class=3D""><strike class=3D"">A random number is passed through another =
entity</strike><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div>The nonce =
was relayed.</div><br class=3D""></div>LL</body></html>=

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From nobody Thu Apr  2 12:05:01 2020
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Subject: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference =
values go into the verifier?  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 only =
mentions known-good references values as something the verifier =
processes. The definitions of Endorsements and Appraisal Policy don=E2=80=99=
t seem to include reference values.

Or is it just something the verifier =E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D?

Seems like reference values could be things like the expected hashes of =
some files, but could also be things like which versions of SW have a =
vulnerability, or which versions of HW are certified.

Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of critical =
importance.

LL



                 ************   ************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'

                       Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow


--Apple-Mail=_FB19C01D-AA4D-459E-B54C-2E7B20E7C13F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D"">In the architecture diagram =
below, where do the known-good reference values go into the verifier? =
&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02</a>=
 only mentions known-good references values as something the verifier =
processes. The definitions of Endorsements and&nbsp;Appraisal Policy =
don=E2=80=99t seem to include reference values.</span></font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D"">Or is it just =
something the verifier&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D?</span></font></pre><p=
re class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D"">Seems like =
reference values could be things like the expected hashes of some files, =
but could also be things like&nbsp;which versions of SW have a =
vulnerability, or which versions of HW are =
certified.</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><br class=3D""></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D"">Seems an important to say =
where they come from as they are of critical =
importance.</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: normal;" =
class=3D"">LL</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;"><br class=3D""></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">                 ************   ************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .-----&gt;|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'

                       Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_FB19C01D-AA4D-459E-B54C-2E7B20E7C13F--


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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Hi Laurence,
  There's material on known-good values in the RIV draft, under the name Re=
ference Integrity Measurements
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

[External Email. Be cautious of content]


In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference values=
 go into the verifier?  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-archite=
cture-02<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
rats-architecture-02__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn=
0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio$> only mentions known-good references values =
as something the verifier processes. The definitions of Endorsements and Ap=
praisal Policy don't seem to include reference values.



Or is it just something the verifier "knows"?



Seems like reference values could be things like the expected hashes of som=
e files, but could also be things like which versions of SW have a vulnerab=
ility, or which versions of HW are certified.



Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of critical impo=
rtance.



LL







                 ************   ************    *****************

                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *

                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *

                       |        ************    *****************

                       |              |                 |

           Endorsements|              |                 |

                       |              |Appraisal        |

                       |              |Policy for       |

                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal

                       |              |                 | Policy for

                       |              |                 | Attestation

                       |              |                 |  Result

                       v              v                 |

                     .-----------------.                |

              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |

              |      '-----------------'      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                    Attestation|         |

              |                    Results    |         |

              | Evidence                      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                               v         v

        .----------.                      .-----------------.

        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |

        '----------'                      '-----------------'



                       Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; There&#8217;s material on known-good values i=
n the RIV draft, under the name Reference Integrity Measurements<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Laurence Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architectu=
re?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-g=
ood reference values go into the verifier? &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02__;!=
!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF=
74uio$">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02</a> onl=
y mentions known-good references values as something the verifier processes=
. The definitions of Endorsements and&nbsp;Appraisal Policy don&#8217;t see=
m to include reference values.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Or is it just something the verifier&nbsp;&#8220;knows&=
#8221;?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems like reference values could be things like the ex=
pected hashes of some files, but could also be things like&nbsp;which versi=
ons of SW have a vulnerability, or which versions of HW are certified.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems an important to say where they come from as they =
are of critical importance.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">LL</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&=
nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Endorser *&nbsp;&nbsp; * Verifier *&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; * Relying Party *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbs=
p; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************=
*****<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Endorseme=
nts|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Apprai=
sal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|Policy=
 for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Eviden=
ce&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Appraisal<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Policy for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attestation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Result<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; .-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Verifier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |--=
----.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '-----------------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation|&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Results&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .----------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attester |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Relying Party&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '----------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'-----------------'<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure 1: Co=
nceptual Data Flow<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/M4WyfgwR-T2p4CUTnK1-d4kdBdQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/SL5ZGjOKflQXwNNH8mT_30Fp5zs>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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--_000_BL0PR2101MB102735358A0C14E83EC1F263A3C60BL0PR2101MB1027_
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FYI, "known-good reference values" are just an example, or part of what mig=
ht be used in appraisal.
I've pointed out in earlier threads on this list why "known good values" is=
 pretty primitive and not
flexible enough for many real world scenarios.

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 12:09 PM
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

Hi Laurence,
  There's material on known-good values in the RIV draft, under the name Re=
ference Integrity Measurements
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM
To: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

[External Email. Be cautious of content]


In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference values=
 go into the verifier?  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-archite=
cture-02<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rat=
s-architecture-02__%3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0=
IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C=
cc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad08d7d73943a0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0=
%7C637214513263587993&sdata=3DhhZujZaqJEyfPPZeDUn1wNqJMMBXny6ph7h%2FbUo%2BA=
PM%3D&reserved=3D0> only mentions known-good references values as something=
 the verifier processes.. The definitions of Endorsements and Appraisal Pol=
icy don't seem to include reference values.



Or is it just something the verifier "knows"?



Seems like reference values could be things like the expected hashes of som=
e files, but could also be things like which versions of SW have a vulnerab=
ility, or which versions of HW are certified.



Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of critical impo=
rtance.



LL







                 ************   ************    *****************

                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *

                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *

                       |        ************    *****************

                       |              |                 |

           Endorsements|              |                 |

                       |              |Appraisal        |

                       |              |Policy for       |

                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal

                       |              |                 | Policy for

                       |              |                 | Attestation

                       |              |                 |  Result

                       v              v                 |

                     .-----------------.                |

              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |

              |      '-----------------'      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                    Attestation|         |

              |                    Results    |         |

              | Evidence                      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                               v         v

        .----------.                      .-----------------.

        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |

        '----------'                      '-----------------'



                       Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">FYI, &#8220;known-good=
 reference values&#8221; are just an example, or
<i>part</i> of what might be used in appraisal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve pointed out=
 in earlier threads on this list why &#8220;known good values&#8221; is pre=
tty primitive and not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">flexible enough for ma=
ny real world scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 12:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;; rats@ietf.org<=
br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in archit=
ecture?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; There&#8217;s material on known-good values i=
n the RIV draft, under the name Reference Integrity Measurements<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Laurence Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architectu=
re?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black">[External Emai=
l. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-g=
ood reference values go into the verifier? &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://nam06.s=
afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F=
__https%3A%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-architecture-02__%3B!!=
NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF7=
4uio%24&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Ccc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad=
08d7d73943a0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63721451326358799=
3&amp;sdata=3DhhZujZaqJEyfPPZeDUn1wNqJMMBXny6ph7h%2FbUo%2BAPM%3D&amp;reserv=
ed=3D0">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02</a> onl=
y mentions known-good references values as something the verifier processes=
.. The definitions of Endorsements and&nbsp;Appraisal Policy don&#8217;t se=
em to include reference values.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Or is it just something the verifier&nbsp;&#8220;knows&=
#8221;?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems like reference values could be things like the ex=
pected hashes of some files, but could also be things like&nbsp;which versi=
ons of SW have a vulnerability, or which versions of HW are certified.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems an important to say where they come from as they =
are of critical importance.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">LL</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&=
nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Endorser *&nbsp;&nbsp; * Verifier *&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; * Relying Party *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbs=
p; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************=
*****<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Endorseme=
nts|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Apprai=
sal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|Policy=
 for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Eviden=
ce&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Appraisal<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Policy for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attestation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Result<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; .-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Verifier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |--=
----.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '-----------------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation|&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Results&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .----------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attester |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Relying Party&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '----------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'-----------------'<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure 1: Co=
nceptual Data Flow<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BL0PR2101MB102735358A0C14E83EC1F263A3C60BL0PR2101MB1027_--


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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/zZDGspBKHRI5_Tvh_XZJl4HyaYY>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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Dave,
  You're right, the simple term "known good values" hides a very complex tr=
ip through policies and software release strategies, even in what looks lik=
e a constrained environment like TPM attestation.
  I think NIST has proposed helpful extensions to the ISO SWID standard tha=
t takes a start at the problem.
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:12 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>; Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-re=
sort.com>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

FYI, "known-good reference values" are just an example, or part of what mig=
ht be used in appraisal.
I've pointed out in earlier threads on this list why "known good values" is=
 pretty primitive and not
flexible enough for many real world scenarios.

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 12:09 PM
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>=
>; rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

Hi Laurence,
  There's material on known-good values in the RIV draft, under the name Re=
ference Integrity Measurements
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM
To: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?

[External Email. Be cautious of content]


In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference values=
 go into the verifier?  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-archite=
cture-02<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outl=
ook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.=
org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-ietf-rats-architecture-02__*3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfb=
C8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio*24&data=3D02*7C01*7=
Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7Ccc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad08d7d73943a0*7C72f988bf86f14=
1af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637214513263587993&sdata=3DhhZujZaqJEyfPPZeDU=
n1wNqJMMBXny6ph7h*2FbUo*2BAPM*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU=
lJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XcCBLIOfqVXjrCG6sBzdttAyzeFBhoEJJM6_taw-RoF5OUBvOJJBdd1h6m=
fc6DAhhA0$> only mentions known-good references values as something the ver=
ifier processes... The definitions of Endorsements and Appraisal Policy don=
't seem to include reference values.



Or is it just something the verifier "knows"?



Seems like reference values could be things like the expected hashes of som=
e files, but could also be things like which versions of SW have a vulnerab=
ility, or which versions of HW are certified.



Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of critical impo=
rtance.



LL







                 ************   ************    *****************

                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *

                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *

                       |        ************    *****************

                       |              |                 |

           Endorsements|              |                 |

                       |              |Appraisal        |

                       |              |Policy for       |

                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal

                       |              |                 | Policy for

                       |              |                 | Attestation

                       |              |                 |  Result

                       v              v                 |

                     .-----------------.                |

              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |

              |      '-----------------'      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                    Attestation|         |

              |                    Results    |         |

              | Evidence                      |         |

              |                               |         |

              |                               v         v

        .----------.                      .-----------------.

        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |

        '----------'                      '-----------------'



                       Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; You&#8217;re right, the simple term &#8220;kn=
own good values&#8221; hides a very complex trip through policies and softw=
are release strategies, even in what looks like a constrained environment l=
ike TPM attestation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think NIST has proposed helpful extensions =
to the ISO SWID standard that takes a start at the problem.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler=3D40microsoft.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;; Laurence Lundblade &=
lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;; rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in archit=
ecture?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">FYI, &#8220;known-good=
 reference values&#8221; are just an example, or
<i>part</i> of what might be used in appraisal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve pointed out=
 in earlier threads on this list why &#8220;known good values&#8221; is pre=
tty primitive and not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">flexible enough for ma=
ny real world scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 12:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">=
lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in archit=
ecture?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; There&#8217;s material on known-good values i=
n the RIV draft, under the name Reference Integrity Measurements<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
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<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
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<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Laurence Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architectu=
re?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-g=
ood reference values go into the verifier? &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*=
2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-ietf-=
rats-architecture-02__*3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyN=
jn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio*24&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft=
.com*7Ccc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad08d7d73943a0*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*=
7C1*7C0*7C637214513263587993&amp;sdata=3DhhZujZaqJEyfPPZeDUn1wNqJMMBXny6ph7=
h*2FbUo*2BAPM*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMa=
O-gk!XcCBLIOfqVXjrCG6sBzdttAyzeFBhoEJJM6_taw-RoF5OUBvOJJBdd1h6mfc6DAhhA0$">=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02</a> only mentio=
ns known-good references values as something the verifier processes... The =
definitions of Endorsements and&nbsp;Appraisal Policy don&#8217;t seem to i=
nclude reference values.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Or is it just something the verifier&nbsp;&#8220;knows&=
#8221;?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems like reference values could be things like the ex=
pected hashes of some files, but could also be things like&nbsp;which versi=
ons of SW have a vulnerability, or which versions of HW are certified.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">Seems an important to say where they come from as they =
are of critical importance.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,sans-serif">LL</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before: page">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&=
nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Endorser *&nbsp;&nbsp; * Verifier *&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; * Relying Party *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbs=
p; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Owner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; *<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************=
*****<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Endorseme=
nts|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Apprai=
sal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|Policy=
 for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |Eviden=
ce&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Appraisal<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Policy for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attestation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Result<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; .-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Verifier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |--=
----.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '-----------------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation|&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Results&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .----------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----------------.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attester |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Relying Party&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '----------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'-----------------'<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure 1: Co=
nceptual Data Flow<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DM6PR05MB6889FE7E900737A234E222B0BAC60DM6PR05MB6889namp_--


From nobody Thu Apr  2 12:36:27 2020
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Now that we have a first draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00>, =
and they look like Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to =
consider some of how the verifier uses Endorsements (reference the =
architecture diagram below).

Let=E2=80=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 and =
E3, three things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the =
results, R1, R2 and R3.

Then three simpleton top-level cases:

1) An Endorsement is passed through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 > =
R1
2) A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94> R2
3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to become a result: {E2, =
E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94> R3

However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to be some =
sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are that =
some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that means 2) =
doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:

2) Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94> R2

One way E0 could be defined in the draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00> is =
that it is a list of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed =
through. For numeric labels  a range INT64_MAX to INT64_MIN (or =
-infinity to +infinity)  indicates all claims are trusted. It could also =
list specific ones that are trusted.

=46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android Attestation views of the world where =
measurements aren=E2=80=99t a primary thing and secure/trusted boot is =
required and always on, a common model will be to pass everything =
through to create an aggregate result. It could be represented this way:

E1->R1
E2->R2
E3->R3
{E0,C1}->R4
{E0,C2}->R5
{E0,C3}->R6

I think this goes on to submodules too and has some relation to the =
attempted to propose a connection type.  Endorsements may be able to say =
how submodules are trusted. There might even be an E00 primitive that =
says the lead attester is allowed to say how submodules are trusted. =
This whole line of thinking was partly prompted by this issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58> against EAT and comments =
from Giri and Dave.

LL



                 ************   ************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'








--Apple-Mail=_F68FEEEC-C5D7-46ED-89A1-D9B23D1AC475
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Now&nbsp;that we have a first&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>, and they look like =
Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to consider some of how the =
verifier uses Endorsements (reference the architecture diagram =
below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let=E2=80=
=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 and E3, three =
things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the results, R1, R2 =
and R3.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then =
three simpleton top-level cases:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) An Endorsement is passed =
through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 &gt; R1</div><div class=3D"">2)=
 A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94&gt; =
R2</div><div class=3D"">3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to =
become a result: {E2, E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94&gt; =
R3</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to =
be some sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are =
that some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that =
means 2) doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">2)=
 Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94&gt; R2</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One way E0 could be =
defined in the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>&nbsp;is that it is a list =
of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed through. For =
numeric labels &nbsp;a range&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 116, 0); =
font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D"">INT64_MAX</span>&nbsp;to&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 116, 0); font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">INT64_MIN&nbsp;</span>(or -infinity to =
+infinity) &nbsp;indicates all claims are trusted. It could also list =
specific ones that are trusted.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android =
Attestation views of the world where measurements aren=E2=80=99t a =
primary thing and secure/trusted boot is required and always on, a =
common model will be to pass everything through to create an aggregate =
result. It could be represented this way:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">E1-&gt;R1</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">E2-&gt;R2</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">E3-&gt;R3</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C1}-&gt;R4</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{E0,C2}-&gt;R5</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C3}-&gt;R6</font></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think this goes on to submodules too =
and has some relation to the attempted to propose a connection type. =
&nbsp;Endorsements may be able to say how submodules are trusted. There =
might even be an E00 primitive that says the lead attester is allowed to =
say how submodules are trusted. This whole line of thinking was partly =
prompted by this&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;against EAT and comments from Giri and =
Dave.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">
                 ************   ************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .-----&gt;|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F68FEEEC-C5D7-46ED-89A1-D9B23D1AC475--


From nobody Thu Apr  2 12:43:41 2020
Return-Path: <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:43:36 -0700
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR05MB6889FE7E900737A234E222B0BAC60@DM6PR05MB6889.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Cc: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
References: <CFB8C04B-8450-4AD3-B337-DF8C3090F537@island-resort.com> <DM6PR05MB68892300D820CBC601F56522BAC60@DM6PR05MB6889.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <BL0PR2101MB102735358A0C14E83EC1F263A3C60@BL0PR2101MB1027.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR05MB6889FE7E900737A234E222B0BAC60@DM6PR05MB6889.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/p7nA8TktcEklcaLxhG0VNz_c6zY>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in architecture?
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OK. That works (and was settled very quickly). Thx. :-)

I filed an issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/78> requesting the =
architecture document describe this.

LL

> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:22 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Dave,
>   You=E2=80=99re right, the simple term =E2=80=9Cknown good values=E2=80=
=9D hides a very complex trip through policies and software release =
strategies, even in what looks like a constrained environment like TPM =
attestation.
>   I think NIST has proposed helpful extensions to the ISO SWID =
standard that takes a start at the problem.
> /guy
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>=20
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:12 PM
> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net =
<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>; Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in =
architecture?
> =20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> =20
> FYI, =E2=80=9Cknown-good reference values=E2=80=9D are just an =
example, or part of what might be used in appraisal.
> I=E2=80=99ve pointed out in earlier threads on this list why =E2=80=9Ckn=
own good values=E2=80=9D is pretty primitive and not
> flexible enough for many real world scenarios.
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Guy Fedorkow
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 12:09 PM
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in =
architecture?
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
>   There=E2=80=99s material on known-good values in the RIV draft, =
under the name Reference Integrity Measurements
> /guy
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:05 PM
> To: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Rats] Where are known-good references values in =
architecture?
> =20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> =20
> In the architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference =
values go into the verifier?  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com=
/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2F=
html*2Fdraft-ietf-rats-architecture-02__*3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXdfbC8eog=
bfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio*24&data=3D02*7C01*7Cdth=
aler*40microsoft.com*7Ccc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad08d7d73943a0*7C72f988bf86f141af=
91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637214513263587993&sdata=3DhhZujZaqJEyfPPZeDUn1=
wNqJMMBXny6ph7h*2FbUo*2BAPM*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl=
JQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XcCBLIOfqVXjrCG6sBzdttAyzeFBhoEJJM6_taw-RoF5OUBvOJJBdd1h6m=
fc6DAhhA0$> only mentions known-good references values as something the =
verifier processes... The definitions of Endorsements and Appraisal =
Policy don=E2=80=99t seem to include reference values.
> =20
> Or is it just something the verifier =E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> Seems like reference values could be things like the expected hashes =
of some files, but could also be things like which versions of SW have a =
vulnerability, or which versions of HW are certified.
> =20
> Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of critical =
importance.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
>                  ************   ************    *****************
>                  * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
>                  ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
>                        |        ************    *****************
>                        |              |                 |
>            Endorsements|              |                 |
>                        |              |Appraisal        |
>                        |              |Policy for       |
>                        |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
>                        |              |                 | Policy for
>                        |              |                 | Attestation
>                        |              |                 |  Result
>                        v              v                 |
>                      .-----------------.                |
>               .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
>               |      '-----------------'      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                    Attestation|         |
>               |                    Results    |         |
>               | Evidence                      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                               v         v
>         .----------.                      .-----------------.
>         | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
>         '----------'                      '-----------------'
> =20
>                        Figure 1: Conceptual Data Flow


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">OK. =
That works (and was settled very quickly). Thx. :-)<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I filed an&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/78" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;requesting the architecture document describe =
this.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:22 PM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Dave,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
You=E2=80=99re right, the simple term =E2=80=9Cknown good values=E2=80=9D =
hides a very complex trip through policies and software release =
strategies, even in what looks like a constrained environment like TPM =
attestation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I think NIST has proposed helpful extensions to the =
ISO SWID standard that takes a start at the problem.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">Juniper Business =
Use Only</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, April 2, 2020 =
3:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;; =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: [Rats] Where are =
known-good references values in architecture?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Lato, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">FYI, =E2=80=9Cknown-good reference values=E2=80=9D are =
just an example, or<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">part</i><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of =
what might be used in appraisal.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve pointed out in earlier threads on this =
list why =E2=80=9Cknown good values=E2=80=9D is pretty primitive and =
not<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">flexible =
enough for many real world scenarios.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Guy Fedorkow<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, April 2, 2020 =
12:09 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Where are =
known-good references values in architecture?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; There=E2=80=99s material on known-good values in the =
RIV draft, under the name Reference Integrity Measurements<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">Juniper Business =
Use Only</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, April 2, 2020 =
3:05 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Rats] Where are known-good =
references values in architecture?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Lato, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: page;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In the =
architecture diagram below, where do the known-good reference values go =
into the verifier? &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outl=
ook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf=
.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-ietf-rats-architecture-02__*3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QaIwlYZYXd=
fbC8eogbfPXjde6vweh7Am9GyNjn0IqdxqdZiw5WfyGxHC8KrkFF74uio*24&amp;data=3D02=
*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7Ccc3751aea1fc4c27a6ad08d7d73943a0*7C72f98=
8bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637214513263587993&amp;sdata=3DhhZuj=
ZaqJEyfPPZeDUn1wNqJMMBXny6ph7h*2FbUo*2BAPM*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJ=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XcCBLIOfqVXjrCG6sBzdttAyzeFBhoEJJM6_taw=
-RoF5OUBvOJJBdd1h6mfc6DAhhA0$" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-02</a>=
 only mentions known-good references values as something the verifier =
processes... The definitions of Endorsements and&nbsp;Appraisal Policy =
don=E2=80=99t seem to include reference values.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: =
page;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Or is it just something the =
verifier&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cknows=E2=80=9D?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: =
page;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Seems like reference values could be things like =
the expected hashes of some files, but could also be things =
like&nbsp;which versions of SW have a vulnerability, or which versions =
of HW are certified.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: page;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: =
page;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Seems an important to say where they come from as they are of =
critical importance.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: page;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: =
page;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: page;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: =
page;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;; =
break-before: page;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; =
************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Endorser *&nbsp;&nbsp; * Verifier =
*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Relying Party *<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; =
Owner&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; =
Owner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Endorsements|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |Appraisal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;|Policy for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Appraisal<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Policy for<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attestation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Result<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.-----------------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Verifier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'-----------------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Attestation|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Results&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.----------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.-----------------.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attester =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Relying =
Party&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'----------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'-----------------'<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Figure 1: Conceptual Data =
Flow</pre></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Let me make this much more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99m using =
JSON representation of CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style comments for =
reading ease.

Endorsement
{
    =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D,           =
// E0, I just made this up
    =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // E1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
    =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // E2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
    =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=E2=80=9D=
,      // E3, from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
}

Evidence
{
    =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // C1 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg) from EAT draft
    =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // C2 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D from EAT draft
    =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// C3 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM from EAT draft
}

Results
{
    =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // R1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
    =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // R2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
    =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=E2=80=9D=
,      // R3, from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
    =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // R4 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg)
    =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // R5 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D
    =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// R6 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM
}

In this example, the RP is probably feeding this into a risk engine so =
they want all the details.


Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated example with made up claim =
names:

Endorsement (not showing any signing)
{
    =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D
}

Evidence
{
    =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"
}

Results
{
    =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D: true, =20
}

This all seems like the eventual logical result of the EAT, endorsements =
and architecture drafts to me.

LL
   =20



> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
> Now that we have a first draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00>, =
and they look like Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to =
consider some of how the verifier uses Endorsements (reference the =
architecture diagram below).
>=20
> Let=E2=80=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 =
and E3, three things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the =
results, R1, R2 and R3.
>=20
> Then three simpleton top-level cases:
>=20
> 1) An Endorsement is passed through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 =
> R1
> 2) A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94> R2
> 3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to become a result: {E2, =
E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94> R3
>=20
> However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to be some =
sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are that =
some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that means 2) =
doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:
>=20
> 2) Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94> R2
>=20
> One way E0 could be defined in the draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00> is =
that it is a list of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed =
through. For numeric labels  a range INT64_MAX to INT64_MIN (or =
-infinity to +infinity)  indicates all claims are trusted. It could also =
list specific ones that are trusted.
>=20
> =46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android Attestation views of the world where =
measurements aren=E2=80=99t a primary thing and secure/trusted boot is =
required and always on, a common model will be to pass everything =
through to create an aggregate result. It could be represented this way:
>=20
> E1->R1
> E2->R2
> E3->R3
> {E0,C1}->R4
> {E0,C2}->R5
> {E0,C3}->R6
>=20
> I think this goes on to submodules too and has some relation to the =
attempted to propose a connection type.  Endorsements may be able to say =
how submodules are trusted. There might even be an E00 primitive that =
says the lead attester is allowed to say how submodules are trusted. =
This whole line of thinking was partly prompted by this issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58> against EAT and comments =
from Giri and Dave.
>=20
> LL
>=20
>=20
>                  ************   ************    *****************
>                  * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
>                  ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
>                        |        ************    *****************
>                        |              |                 |
>            Endorsements|              |                 |
>                        |              |Appraisal        |
>                        |              |Policy for       |
>                        |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
>                        |              |                 | Policy for
>                        |              |                 | Attestation
>                        |              |                 |  Result
>                        v              v                 |
>                      .-----------------.                |
>               .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
>               |      '-----------------'      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                    Attestation|         |
>               |                    Results    |         |
>               | Evidence                      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                               v         v
>         .----------.                      .-----------------.
>         | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
>         '----------'                      '-----------------'
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Let =
me make this much more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99m using JSON =
representation of CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style comments for reading =
ease.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Endorsement</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=
=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // E0, I just made this =
up</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// E1, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // E2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: <a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=
" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// E3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Evidence</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C1 time stamp for evidence creation =
time(eg) from EAT draft</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C2 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D&nbsp;</font><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">from EAT draft</span></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; // C3 debug is permanently disabled for all but the =
OEM&nbsp;</font><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">from EAT draft</span></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;// R1, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: <a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=
" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;// R4 time stamp for evidence creation =
time(eg)</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R5 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=
=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R6 debug is =
permanently disabled for all but the OEM</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In this example, the RP =
is probably feeding this into a risk engine so they want all the =
details.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated =
example with made up claim names:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement=
 (not showing any signing)</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D</=
font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Evidence</u></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=80=9D=
: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"</font></d=
iv><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp;</font></div><div class=3D""><font=
 face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This all seems like the =
eventual logical result of the EAT, endorsements and architecture drafts =
to me.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr =
2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Now&nbsp;that we have a first&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>, and they look like =
Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to consider some of how the =
verifier uses Endorsements (reference the architecture diagram =
below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let=E2=80=
=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 and E3, three =
things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the results, R1, R2 =
and R3.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then =
three simpleton top-level cases:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) An Endorsement is passed =
through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 &gt; R1</div><div class=3D"">2)=
 A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94&gt; =
R2</div><div class=3D"">3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to =
become a result: {E2, E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94&gt; =
R3</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to =
be some sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are =
that some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that =
means 2) doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">2)=
 Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94&gt; R2</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One way E0 could be =
defined in the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>&nbsp;is that it is a list =
of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed through. For =
numeric labels &nbsp;a range&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 116, 0); =
font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D"">INT64_MAX</span>&nbsp;to&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 116, 0); font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">INT64_MIN&nbsp;</span>(or -infinity to =
+infinity) &nbsp;indicates all claims are trusted. It could also list =
specific ones that are trusted.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android =
Attestation views of the world where measurements aren=E2=80=99t a =
primary thing and secure/trusted boot is required and always on, a =
common model will be to pass everything through to create an aggregate =
result. It could be represented this way:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">E1-&gt;R1</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">E2-&gt;R2</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">E3-&gt;R3</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C1}-&gt;R4</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{E0,C2}-&gt;R5</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C3}-&gt;R6</font></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think this goes on to submodules too =
and has some relation to the attempted to propose a connection type. =
&nbsp;Endorsements may be able to say how submodules are trusted. There =
might even be an E00 primitive that says the lead attester is allowed to =
say how submodules are trusted. This whole line of thinking was partly =
prompted by this&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;against EAT and comments from Giri and =
Dave.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">                 ************   =
************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .-----&gt;|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results
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Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 04:20:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results
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Cc: Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/kT3055jIzIl1BoPRwIX3BXxp2c8>
Subject: [Rats] debug disable (was Re: Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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The latest debug disable text is here =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/blob/master/draft-ietf-rats-eat.md> =
in GitHub but not yet in a released draft.

The =E2=80=9Cpermanent disable=E2=80=9D state still allows for the OEM =
(and only the OEM) to enable for things like RMA so it couldn't go in an =
endorsement. =E2=80=9Cfull permanent disable=E2=80=9D could, but only if =
the manufacturer really did it for every chip they shipped.

The debug facilities the claim is aimed at are HW and system facilities =
like JTAG, scan chain, Arm Coresight =
<https://developer.arm.com/ip-products/system-ip/coresight-debug-and-trace=
> and such.=20

Maybe for some app download systems it might make sense to make the app =
an Attestation Target and make claims about that app=E2=80=99s debug =
state, but that=E2=80=99s not how debug for SW / apps usually works. =
There=E2=80=99s not usually config to turn debug on or off for =
individual apps.

LL


> On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:27 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Debug-disable is not (in general, but can be in specific cases) =
permanent for a device, it can vary by application on the same device,
> and can vary over time as say software/firmware is patched or =
configured, so cannot in that case be in an endorsement.
> =20
> Also I would expect that endorsements generally also carry some sort =
of expiration or validity period as well, which isn=E2=80=99t in =
Laurence=E2=80=99s example.
> (And expiration time is an example of something that equality =
comparison against a =E2=80=9Cknown good value=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t =
work for.)
> =20
> Dave
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 9:20 PM
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>; rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results
> =20
> BTW: Since =E2=80=98debug-disable=E2=80=99 is permanent it could =
probably equally be included in Endorsement.
> It is also reasonable that Verifier could downgrade =E2=80=98security =
level=E2=80=99 based on other claims and how they relate to policies. =
Security level in Evidence is an assertion the attester makes that has =
to be substantiated in some way. It could also be used exclusively as a =
conclusion in Results based on review of a bunch of other claims (in =
other words Attestation Results cold acquire additional claims beyond =
what originally existed in the intersection of Evidence and Endorsement.
> =20
> Policies and or standardized profiles decide all these variables IMHO.
> =20
> But the example seems to be illustrative (if that was the intent).
> =20
> -Ned
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 4:16 PM
> To: "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results
> =20
> Let me make this much more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99m using =
JSON representation of CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style comments for =
reading ease.
> =20
> Endorsement
> {
>     =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D,           =
// E0, I just made this up
>     =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // E1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // E2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.c=
ommoncriteriaportal.org%2Ffiles%2Fepfiles%2F0879V3a_pdf.pdf&data=3D02%7C01=
%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86=
f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793201421&sdata=3DE69tACqMXmlHdn=
jeBU9Y8cDT5DJAwHo0%2B7fAIgvtU4s%3D&reserved=3D0>=E2=80=9D,      // E3, =
from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
> }
> =20
> Evidence
> {
>     =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // C1 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg) from EAT draft
>     =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // C2 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D from EAT draft
>     =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// C3 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM from EAT draft
> }
> =20
> Results
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // R1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // R2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.c=
ommoncriteriaportal.org%2Ffiles%2Fepfiles%2F0879V3a_pdf.pdf&data=3D02%7C01=
%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86=
f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793201421&sdata=3DE69tACqMXmlHdn=
jeBU9Y8cDT5DJAwHo0%2B7fAIgvtU4s%3D&reserved=3D0>=E2=80=9D,      // R3, =
from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // R4 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg)
>     =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // R5 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D
>     =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// R6 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM
> }
> =20
> In this example, the RP is probably feeding this into a risk engine so =
they want all the details.
> =20
> =20
> Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated example with made up claim =
names:
> =20
> Endorsement (not showing any signing)
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D
> }
> =20
> Evidence
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"
> }
> =20
> Results
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D: true, =20
> }
> =20
> This all seems like the eventual logical result of the EAT, =
endorsements and architecture drafts to me.
> =20
> LL
>    =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Now that we have a first draft describing endorsements =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools=
.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00&data=3D02%7C01%7=
Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86f1=
41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793211423&sdata=3D8ZPy3ny07A3FO%2B=
Hn3fCrWnCoUKBbIkKhxbCMvF5Jbl8%3D&reserved=3D0>, and they look like =
Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to consider some of how the =
verifier uses Endorsements (reference the architecture diagram below).
> =20
> Let=E2=80=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 =
and E3, three things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the =
results, R1, R2 and R3.
> =20
> Then three simpleton top-level cases:
> =20
> 1) An Endorsement is passed through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 =
> R1
> 2) A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94> R2
> 3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to become a result: {E2, =
E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94> R3
> =20
> However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to be some =
sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are that =
some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that means 2) =
doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:
> =20
> 2) Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94> R2
> =20
> One way E0 could be defined in the draft describing endorsements =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools=
.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00&data=3D02%7C01%7=
Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86f1=
41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793211423&sdata=3D8ZPy3ny07A3FO%2B=
Hn3fCrWnCoUKBbIkKhxbCMvF5Jbl8%3D&reserved=3D0> is that it is a list of =
the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed through. For numeric =
labels  a range INT64_MAX to INT64_MIN (or -infinity to +infinity)  =
indicates all claims are trusted. It could also list specific ones that =
are trusted.
> =20
> =46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android Attestation views of the world where =
measurements aren=E2=80=99t a primary thing and secure/trusted boot is =
required and always on, a common model will be to pass everything =
through to create an aggregate result. It could be represented this way:
> =20
> E1->R1
> E2->R2
> E3->R3
> {E0,C1}->R4
> {E0,C2}->R5
> {E0,C3}->R6
> =20
> I think this goes on to submodules too and has some relation to the =
attempted to propose a connection type.  Endorsements may be able to say =
how submodules are trusted. There might even be an E00 primitive that =
says the lead attester is allowed to say how submodules are trusted. =
This whole line of thinking was partly prompted by this issue =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithu=
b.com%2Fietf-rats-wg%2Feat%2Fissues%2F58&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micros=
oft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011d=
b47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793221414&sdata=3DuXX3tjZCocPUqEI47BoDPHVaSOWaAssDj=
lSWZgY0fZw%3D&reserved=3D0> against EAT and comments from Giri and Dave.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
>                  ************   ************    *****************
>                  * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
>                  ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
>                        |        ************    *****************
>                        |              |                 |
>            Endorsements|              |                 |
>                        |              |Appraisal        |
>                        |              |Policy for       |
>                        |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
>                        |              |                 | Policy for
>                        |              |                 | Attestation
>                        |              |                 |  Result
>                        v              v                 |
>                      .-----------------.                |
>               .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
>               |      '-----------------'      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                    Attestation|         |
>               |                    Results    |         |
>               | Evidence                      |         |
>               |                               |         |
>               |                               v         v
>         .----------.                      .-----------------.
>         | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
>         '----------'                      '-----------------'
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

--Apple-Mail=_9511321B-B3D3-4106-BF4F-75BD681E62D5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The latest debug disable text is&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/blob/master/draft-ietf-rats-ea=
t.md" class=3D"">here</a>&nbsp;in GitHub but not yet in a released =
draft.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
=E2=80=9Cpermanent disable=E2=80=9D state still allows for the OEM (and =
only the OEM) to enable for things like RMA so it couldn't go in an =
endorsement. =E2=80=9Cfull permanent disable=E2=80=9D could, but only if =
the manufacturer really did it for every chip they shipped.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The debug facilities the =
claim is aimed at are HW and system facilities like JTAG, scan =
chain,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://developer.arm.com/ip-products/system-ip/coresight-debug-an=
d-trace" class=3D"">Arm Coresight</a>&nbsp;and such.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe for some app =
download systems it might make sense to make the app an Attestation =
Target and make claims about that app=E2=80=99s debug state, but =
that=E2=80=99s not how debug for SW / apps usually works. There=E2=80=99s =
not usually config to turn debug on or off for individual =
apps.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr =
2, 2020, at 9:27 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Debug-disable is not (in =
general, but can be in specific cases) permanent for a device, it can =
vary by application on the same device,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">and can vary over time as =
say software/firmware is patched or configured, so cannot in that case =
be in an endorsement.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">Also I would expect that endorsements generally also =
carry some sort of expiration or validity period as well, which isn=E2=80=99=
t in Laurence=E2=80=99s example.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">(And expiration time is an example of something that =
equality comparison against a =E2=80=9Cknown good value=E2=80=9D =
doesn=E2=80=99t work for.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">Dave<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Smith, Ned<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, April 2, 2020 =
9:20 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Processing =
Endorsements and Evidence into Results<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">BTW: Since =E2=80=98debug-disable=E2=80=99 is permanent it =
could probably equally be included in Endorsement.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">It is also =
reasonable that Verifier could downgrade =E2=80=98security level=E2=80=99 =
based on other claims and how they relate to policies. Security level in =
Evidence is an assertion the attester makes that has to be substantiated =
in some way. It could also be used exclusively as a conclusion in =
Results based on review of a bunch of other claims (in other words =
Attestation Results cold acquire additional claims beyond what =
originally existed in the intersection of Evidence and Endorsement.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Policies and or standardized profiles decide all these =
variables IMHO.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">But the example seems to be illustrative (if that was the =
intent).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">-Ned<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Thursday, April 2, 2020 =
at 4:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Rats] Processing =
Endorsements and Evidence into Results<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Let me make this much more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99=
m using JSON representation of CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style =
comments for reading ease.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement</u><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=
=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // =
E0, I just made this up</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;// E1, from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // E2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fwww.commoncriteriaportal.org%2Ffiles%2Fepfiles%2F0879V3a_pdf.pdf&amp;dat=
a=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7=
C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793201421&amp;sdata=3D=
E69tACqMXmlHdnjeBU9Y8cDT5DJAwHo0%2B7fAIgvtU4s%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// E3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Evidence</u><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": =
5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C1 =
time stamp for evidence creation time(eg) from EAT draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C2 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D&nbsp;from EAT draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // C3 debug is =
permanently disabled for all but the OEM&nbsp;from EAT draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">{</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;// R1, from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fwww.commoncriteriaportal.org%2Ffiles%2Fepfiles%2F0879V3a_pdf.pdf&amp;dat=
a=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7=
C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793201421&amp;sdata=3D=
E69tACqMXmlHdnjeBU9Y8cDT5DJAwHo0%2B7fAIgvtU4s%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": =
5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R4 =
time stamp for evidence creation time(eg)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R5 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=
=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R6 debug is =
permanently disabled for all but the OEM</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In this example, the RP is probably feeding this into a risk =
engine so they want all the details.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated =
example with made up claim names:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement (not showing =
any signing)</u><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">{</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D</=
span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><u class=3D"">Evidence</u><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=
=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">{</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=
=9D: true, &nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This all seems like the eventual logical result of the EAT, =
endorsements and architecture drafts to me.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Now&nbsp;that we have a first&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f=
988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793211423&amp;sdata=3D8ZP=
y3ny07A3FO%2BHn3fCrWnCoUKBbIkKhxbCMvF5Jbl8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">draft =
describing endorsements</a>, and they look like Evidence and Results, it =
seems interesting to consider some of how the verifier uses Endorsements =
(reference the architecture diagram below).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Let=E2=80=99s say there are three =
things in the endorsement, E1, E2 and E3, three things in the evidence, =
C1, C2 and C3 and three in the results, R1, R2 and R3.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then three simpleton top-level =
cases:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in =
5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">1) An Endorsement is passed through and becomes a result: E1 =
=E2=80=94 &gt; R1<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2) A Claim is passed through and =
becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94&gt; R2<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to become a =
result: {E2, E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94&gt; R3<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to =
be some sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are =
that some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that =
means 2) doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2) Some claims can pass =
through with the use of the primitive E0 endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94&g=
t; R2<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">One way E0 could be defined in the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f=
988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793211423&amp;sdata=3D8ZP=
y3ny07A3FO%2BHn3fCrWnCoUKBbIkKhxbCMvF5Jbl8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">draft =
describing endorsements</a>&nbsp;is that it is a list of the labels of =
claims that are trusted to be passed through. For numeric labels &nbsp;a =
range&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Menlo, serif; =
color: rgb(0, 116, 0); background-color: white; background-position: =
initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" =
class=3D"">INT64_MAX</span>&nbsp;to&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
8.5pt; font-family: Menlo, serif; color: rgb(0, 116, 0); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">INT64_MIN&nbsp;</span>(or =
-infinity to +infinity) &nbsp;indicates all claims are trusted. It could =
also list specific ones that are trusted.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android =
Attestation views of the world where measurements aren=E2=80=99t a =
primary thing and secure/trusted boot is required and always on, a =
common model will be to pass everything through to create an aggregate =
result. It could be represented this way:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">E1-&gt;R1</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">E2-&gt;R2</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">E3-&gt;R3</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">{E0,C1}-&gt;R4</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">{E0,C2}-&gt;R5</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">{E0,C3}-&gt;R6</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think this goes on to submodules too and has some relation =
to the attempted to propose a connection type. &nbsp;Endorsements may be =
able to say how submodules are trusted. There might even be an E00 =
primitive that says the lead attester is allowed to say how submodules =
are trusted. This whole line of thinking was partly prompted by =
this&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fgithub.com%2Fietf-rats-wg%2Feat%2Fissues%2F58&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthal=
er%40microsoft.com%7C4809b6abf17245234e7a08d7d78651b3%7C72f988bf86f141af91=
ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637214844793221414&amp;sdata=3DuXX3tjZCocPUqEI47B=
oDPHVaSOWaAssDjlSWZgY0fZw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;against EAT and =
comments from Giri and Dave.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;; break-before: page;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; =
************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Endorser *&nbsp;&nbsp; * Verifier =
*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Relying Party *<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ************&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; =
Owner&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; =
Owner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *****************<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
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nbsp; =
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nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Endorsements|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |Appraisal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |Policy for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |Evidence &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Appraisal<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
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nbsp; =
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nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Policy for<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attestation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Result<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.-----------------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Verifier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'-----------------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Attestation|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Results&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Evidence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.----------.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
.-----------------.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Attester =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Relying =
Party&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'----------'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'-----------------'<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] debug disable (was Re: Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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From nobody Fri Apr  3 12:37:42 2020
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Subject: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it =
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?

Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID. =
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim =
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=
=99m fishing for comments here on what it should be like.

Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public key =
that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester could =
lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to be some =
binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the =
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or =
certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to =
be discussed in the architecture doc.

There=E2=80=99s a few scenarios:
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but each =
has their own attestation key.
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a =
one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different =
endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation

While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur, =
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys is =
very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs and =
issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like =
snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID and =
key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?

 I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement locator =
ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to =
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key material =
to verify it.

Thoughts?

LL



> On Apr 2, 2020, at 4:16 PM, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Let me make this much more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99m using =
JSON representation of CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style comments for =
reading ease.
>=20
> Endorsement
> {
>     =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D,           =
// E0, I just made this up
>     =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // E1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // E2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf>=E2=80=
=9D,      // E3, from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
> }
>=20
> Evidence
> {
>     =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // C1 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg) from EAT draft
>     =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // C2 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D from EAT draft
>     =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// C3 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM from EAT draft
> }
>=20
> Results
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true,          // R1, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal,       // R2, from =
draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: =
https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf>=E2=80=
=9D,      // R3, from draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00
>     =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823,              // R4 time stamp for =
evidence creation time(eg)
>     =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4                // R5 the =
security level is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D
>     =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D       =
// R6 debug is permanently disabled for all but the OEM
> }
>=20
> In this example, the RP is probably feeding this into a risk engine so =
they want all the details.
>=20
>=20
> Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated example with made up claim =
names:
>=20
> Endorsement (not showing any signing)
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D
> }
>=20
> Evidence
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"
> }
>=20
> Results
> {
>     =E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D: true, =20
> }
>=20
> This all seems like the eventual logical result of the EAT, =
endorsements and architecture drafts to me.
>=20
> LL
>    =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Now that we have a first draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00>, =
and they look like Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to =
consider some of how the verifier uses Endorsements (reference the =
architecture diagram below).
>>=20
>> Let=E2=80=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 =
and E3, three things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the =
results, R1, R2 and R3.
>>=20
>> Then three simpleton top-level cases:
>>=20
>> 1) An Endorsement is passed through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 =
> R1
>> 2) A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94> R2
>> 3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to become a result: =
{E2, E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94> R3
>>=20
>> However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to be some =
sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are that =
some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that means 2) =
doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:
>>=20
>> 2) Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94> R2
>>=20
>> One way E0 could be defined in the draft describing endorsements =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00> is =
that it is a list of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed =
through. For numeric labels  a range INT64_MAX to INT64_MIN (or =
-infinity to +infinity)  indicates all claims are trusted. It could also =
list specific ones that are trusted.
>>=20
>> =46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android Attestation views of the world where =
measurements aren=E2=80=99t a primary thing and secure/trusted boot is =
required and always on, a common model will be to pass everything =
through to create an aggregate result. It could be represented this way:
>>=20
>> E1->R1
>> E2->R2
>> E3->R3
>> {E0,C1}->R4
>> {E0,C2}->R5
>> {E0,C3}->R6
>>=20
>> I think this goes on to submodules too and has some relation to the =
attempted to propose a connection type.  Endorsements may be able to say =
how submodules are trusted. There might even be an E00 primitive that =
says the lead attester is allowed to say how submodules are trusted. =
This whole line of thinking was partly prompted by this issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58> against EAT and comments =
from Giri and Dave.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>>=20
>>                  ************   ************    *****************
>>                  * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
>>                  ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
>>                        |        ************    *****************
>>                        |              |                 |
>>            Endorsements|              |                 |
>>                        |              |Appraisal        |
>>                        |              |Policy for       |
>>                        |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
>>                        |              |                 | Policy for
>>                        |              |                 | Attestation
>>                        |              |                 |  Result
>>                        v              v                 |
>>                      .-----------------.                |
>>               .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
>>               |      '-----------------'      |         |
>>               |                               |         |
>>               |                    Attestation|         |
>>               |                    Results    |         |
>>               | Evidence                      |         |
>>               |                               |         |
>>               |                               v         v
>>         .----------.                      .-----------------.
>>         | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
>>         '----------'                      '-----------------'
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for =
Evidence it wishes to verify and know that is really the right =
endorsement?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement =
locator ID. This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the =
origination claim to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs =
to get fixed. I=E2=80=99m fishing for comments here on what it should be =
like.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Pretty =
sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public key that =
is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester could lie =
and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to be some =
binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the =
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or =
certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to =
be discussed in the architecture doc.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s a few =
scenarios:</div><div class=3D"">- One endorsement applies to lots of =
devices in the same class, but each has their own attestation =
key.</div><div class=3D"">- - Probably ECDAA fits in here</div><div =
class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy</div><div class=3D"">-=
 Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a =
one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID =
discussion)</div><div class=3D"">- Group keys are used, but across =
devices that have different endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one =
correlation</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur, because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation =
keys is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs =
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of =
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like =
snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement locator ID =
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use =
cases?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;I =
am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement locator ID =
in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to parse =
the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key material to =
verify it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thoughts?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 2, 2020, at 4:16 PM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Let me make this much =
more concrete with an example. I=E2=80=99m using JSON representation of =
CWT/EAT/Endorsements with C-style comments for reading ease.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Endorsement</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ctrust-evidence=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Call=E2=
=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // E0, I just made this =
up</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// E1, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // E2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: <a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=
" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// E3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Evidence</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C1 time stamp for evidence creation =
time(eg) from EAT draft</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// C2 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D&nbsp;</font><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">from EAT draft</span></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; // C3 debug is permanently disabled for all but the =
OEM&nbsp;</font><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">from EAT draft</span></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cfield-upgradable=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;// R1, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cshielded-secret=E2=80=9D: internal, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R2, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ccommon-criteria=E2=80=9D: <a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.pdf=
" =
class=3D"">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0879V3a_pdf.=
pdf</a>=E2=80=9D, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R3, =
from&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00</font></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciat": 5734873409823, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;// R4 time stamp for evidence creation =
time(eg)</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Csecurity-level=E2=80=9D: 4 &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;// R5 the security level =
is =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cdebug-disable=E2=80=
=9D: =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; // R6 debug is =
permanently disabled for all but the OEM</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In this example, the RP =
is probably feeding this into a risk engine so they want all the =
details.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s another very abbreviated =
example with made up claim names:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement=
 (not showing any signing)</u></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexpected-hash=E2=80=9D: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW=E2=80=9D</=
font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Evidence</u></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cactual-hash=E2=80=9D=
: =
=E2=80=9CTWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZW"</font></d=
iv><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">}</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Results</u></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{</font></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D: true, &nbsp;</font></div><div class=3D""><font=
 face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">}</font></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This all seems like the =
eventual logical result of the EAT, endorsements and architecture drafts =
to me.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Now&nbsp;that we have a first&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>, and they look like =
Evidence and Results, it seems interesting to consider some of how the =
verifier uses Endorsements (reference the architecture diagram =
below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let=E2=80=
=99s say there are three things in the endorsement, E1, E2 and E3, three =
things in the evidence, C1, C2 and C3 and three in the results, R1, R2 =
and R3.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then =
three simpleton top-level cases:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) An Endorsement is passed =
through and becomes a result: E1 =E2=80=94 &gt; R1</div><div class=3D"">2)=
 A Claim is passed through and becomes a results: C1 =E2=80=94&gt; =
R2</div><div class=3D"">3) Some endorsements combine with some claims to =
become a result: {E2, E3, C2, C3} =E2=80=94&gt; =
R3</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However that seems to be too simple and I think there has to =
be some sort of a primitive endorsement, call it E0, whose semantics are =
that some or all of the claims can always be believed. I think that =
means 2) doesn=E2=80=99t really exist, but has to be this:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">2)=
 Some claims can pass through with the use of the primitive E0 =
endorsement: {E0, C1} =E2=80=94&gt; R2</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One way E0 could be =
defined in the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-endorsement-eat-00=
" class=3D"">draft describing endorsements</a>&nbsp;is that it is a list =
of the labels of claims that are trusted to be passed through. For =
numeric labels &nbsp;a range&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 116, 0); =
font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D"">INT64_MAX</span>&nbsp;to&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 116, 0); font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">INT64_MIN&nbsp;</span>(or -infinity to =
+infinity) &nbsp;indicates all claims are trusted. It could also list =
specific ones that are trusted.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom the TEE, FIDO and Android =
Attestation views of the world where measurements aren=E2=80=99t a =
primary thing and secure/trusted boot is required and always on, a =
common model will be to pass everything through to create an aggregate =
result. It could be represented this way:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">E1-&gt;R1</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" class=3D"">E2-&gt;R2</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">E3-&gt;R3</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C1}-&gt;R4</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">{E0,C2}-&gt;R5</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">{E0,C3}-&gt;R6</font></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think this goes on to submodules too =
and has some relation to the attempted to propose a connection type. =
&nbsp;Endorsements may be able to say how submodules are trusted. There =
might even be an E00 primitive that says the lead attester is allowed to =
say how submodules are trusted. This whole line of thinking was partly =
prompted by this&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/58" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;against EAT and comments from Giri and =
Dave.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">                 ************   =
************    *****************
                 * Endorser *   * Verifier *    * Relying Party *
                 ************   *  Owner   *    *  Owner        *
                       |        ************    *****************
                       |              |                 |
           Endorsements|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy for       |
                       |              |Evidence         | Appraisal
                       |              |                 | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .-----&gt;|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '-----------------'
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] debug disable (was Re: Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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> On Apr 3, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=99s not how debug for SW / apps usually works. =
There=E2=80=99s not usually config to turn debug on or off for =
individual apps.=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I can tell you that IS how it works for Intel processors, including =
apps that run in SGX enclaves.
> So =E2=80=9Cusually=E2=80=9D is perhaps a matter of perspective, or a =
matter that varies by chip vendor.


Hopefully the debug disable claim in EAT can still handle this along =
with the user of submods.=20

I=E2=80=99d like to understand a bit more here. Which debuggers are you =
thinking of? Something you use from an IDE like MSVC? Something you use =
from a JTAG port?

Debug per SGX enclave makes sense. Presumably that could be handled in =
EAT with submods. Any pointers to SGX debug documentation?

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 3, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; text-indent: 0.5in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9C</span>that=E2=80=99s not how debug for SW / apps =
usually works. There=E2=80=99s not usually config to turn debug on or =
off for individual apps.=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">I can tell you that IS how it works for Intel =
processors, including apps that run in SGX enclaves.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">So =E2=80=9Cusually=E2=80=9D is perhaps a matter of =
perspective, or a matter that varies by chip =
vendor.</div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Hopefully the debug disable claim in =
EAT can still handle this along with the user of =
submods.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d like to understand a bit more here. Which =
debuggers are you thinking of? Something you use from an IDE like MSVC? =
Something you use from a JTAG port?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Debug per SGX enclave makes sense. =
Presumably that could be handled in EAT with submods. Any pointers to =
SGX debug documentation?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C8D8CB71-51F2-44E7-AC4D-A82C8C5631DC--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results
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From nobody Tue Apr  7 04:41:15 2020
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Subject: [Rats] architecture design team meeting 2020-04-07 - cancelled
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--=-=-=
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To be clear, there is no architecture design team meeting today.
It conflicted with TEEP virtual interim, so it was cancelled.




--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/nOJpq2l_jiSsC3r1AyuVXy8GMSQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RATS Mar 31st Virtual Interim recording posted
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:12:38 -0700
In-Reply-To: <71AEA046-BF2C-4ACD-AD1F-43E11648127E@arm.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/sn8NgvPEltiE2IEQ2CrrlpBBwXs>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in the =
related threat.

My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.

Endorsement
System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or =
maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in =
titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys =
become inaccessible when debug is enabled.

Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented team? =
Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the =
desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?

Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? Is =
the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses =
HSMs).

Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.

My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into devices =
that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is often no =
way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no key more =
secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.=20

Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.  They could even span several models and =
varying HW.

Policy, K-G-V, other
SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development process =
like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).

Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, =
deployments a particular OEM or such

Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on a =
day-day basis

OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor =
and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.

None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put =
into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or =
must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.


I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are =
almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. =20

The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.


On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicro =
endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. Then it=E2=80=
=99s more like the data sheet for the product.=20

Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different key =
/ signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example =
a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the =
individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual keys =
that chain up. With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could =
be per endorsement.


The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.

LL



> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>=20
> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence =
it
>> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>>=20
>> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
>> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination =
claim
>> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
>> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>>=20
>> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
>> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
>> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
>> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
>> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
>> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs =
to be
>> discussed in the architecture doc.
>>=20
>> There's a few scenarios:
>> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>>  each has their own attestation key.
>> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
>> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
>> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
>> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>>=20
>> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
>> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
>> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
>> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
>> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
>> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
>> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>>=20
>> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
>> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t =
have to
>> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
>> material to verify it.
>>=20
>> Thoughts?
>=20
> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>=20
> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: =
I
> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>=20
> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>=20
> cheers, thanks!
>=20
> [1] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-imple=
mentation-id =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-impl=
ementation-id>
> [2] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-insta=
nce-id =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-inst=
ance-id>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on =
debug in the related threat.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My inclination is to associate =
endorsements with time-invariant characteristics of the device. At the =
moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the only way to do it, but it =
seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are policy, =
k-g-v or such.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Endorsement</u></b></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">System =
architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it =
is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. =
Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys become =
inaccessible when debug is enabled.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Development process =E2=80=94 Is there =
a special security-oriented team? Does the team have a code review =
policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for =
HW and SW development isolated?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the =
factories secured in a special way? Is the attestation key provisioning =
system hardened in some way (e.g., uses HSMs).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a =
long time to achieve and will usually require some of the =
above.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys =
into devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there =
is often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all =
that.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the =
endorsement wouldn=E2=80=99t change. &nbsp;They could even span several =
models and varying HW.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Policy, K-G-V, =
other</u></b></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: =
none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">SW Versions =E2=80=94 As =
long as the SW follows a development process like that above, it =
doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the endorsement. Of course the =
smaller the SW and the better the process, the more it is true (and vice =
versa).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, =
versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or such</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Debug status =E2=80=94 =
Most of the debug status values can vary on a day-day basis</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">OEM model =E2=80=94 If =
the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor and the endorsement is =
for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation =
key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing =
time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after =
manufacturing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think what I=E2=80=99ve =
described above lines up pretty well for a TPM. The system architecture =
is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are almost always certified. They are =
independent of OEM model. It also lines up reasonably well with secure =
elements and can line up with TEE=E2=80=99s. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The crux of endorsement =
to me is the security characteristics of the attester that protect the =
attestation key because there is generally no recovery from a =
compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and SW =
of the device.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>On one extreme is a separate endorsement =
for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicro endorsement"?), which is what I think =
Thomas and ARM PSA are tending towards. The other extreme is one =
endorsement for a product line&nbsp;(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say =
a product line of TPMs. Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for =
the product.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the =
different key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, =
X.509). For example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an =
X.509 hierarchy and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would =
have individual keys that chain up. With a micro-endorsement the =
per-device public key could be per endorsement.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, =
Thomas Fossati &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Thanks for bringing this up. =
&nbsp;A few thoughts below.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence =
Lundblade"</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a><span=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>on behalf of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a><span=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt; wrote:</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">So =
how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it<br =
class=3D"">wishes to verify and know that is really the right =
endorsement?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Seems like the Evidence needs =
some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br class=3D"">This could be a =
URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim<br class=3D"">to =
try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=99=
m<br class=3D"">fishing for comments here on what it should be like.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include =
or reference the public<br class=3D"">key that is used to verify the =
signature. Without that, the Attester<br class=3D"">could lie and pick =
any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to<br class=3D"">be some =
binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the<br =
class=3D"">verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token =
or<br class=3D"">certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty =
sure this needs to be<br class=3D"">discussed in the architecture =
doc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a few scenarios:<br class=3D"">-=
 One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br class=3D"">- - =
Probably ECDAA fits in here<br class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 =
hierarchy<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or =
other) so there is a<br class=3D"">&nbsp;one-one correlation with the =
Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used, =
but across devices that have different<br class=3D"">&nbsp;endorsements =
so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur,<br class=3D"">because from a lot of real experience the set up of =
attestation keys<br class=3D"">is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly =
affected by manufacturing costs<br class=3D"">and issues on assembly =
lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br class=3D"">secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br =
class=3D"">snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement =
locator ID<br class=3D"">and key ID are not the same, but they can be in =
some use cases?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am also tempted to =
encourage the placement of the endorsement<br class=3D"">locator ID in =
the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to<br =
class=3D"">parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the =
key<br class=3D"">material to verify it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thoughts?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite =
generally</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">applicable as =
an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part would get you to</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the shared data (e.g., =
certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the instance part can be used to =
retrieve device-specific state:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some =
gear is</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">blacklisted. =
&nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">similar with implementation and =
instance IDs [1] [2].</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID =
discussion: I</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">guess we =
might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">treat EUIDs as the special case =
GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, =
I'd prefer</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">keeping model =
and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">having an opaque endorsement ID =
claim that clumps together those and</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion. =
&nbsp;For the same</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">reason I would not override key ID with instance ID =
semantics.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">cheers, =
thanks!</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[1]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#na=
me-implementation-id" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Cc: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Ned,

Seems like there is general agreement on the core purpose of the =
endorsement =E2=80=94 describing the security characteristics of the =
Endorser.

I=E2=80=99m not advocating any definitions in the architecture document =
here. I was after some general characteristics and common understanding. =
I know implementations are going to vary wildly.=20

To be more clear on =E2=80=9COEM model=E2=80=9D. I was using that to =
refer to the end device like a router, a phone or a washing machine, not =
the manufacturer of a chip, a TPM or a TEE.  The TEE might be the =
Attester and might be the same Attester with the same endorsement that =
is in both a Motorola phone and a Sony phone, each with a different OEM =
Model claim.

When I was referring to a =E2=80=9Cproduct line of TPMs=E2=80=9D, I was =
thinking of several very similar models from the same TPM vendor. Seems =
like this would share the more invariant characteristics of a =
Endorsement and maybe could share an Endorsement. However, I have no =
strong sense that it has to be one way or the other.


One of the main reasons I=E2=80=99ve dug into all this is to try to =
understand how Endorsements and Verification Keys are identified in the =
Evidence so we can define what is needed in EAT. That was the main =
reason for distinguishing micro and macro endorsements. It is not to =
have them formally defined.=20

Thomas=E2=80=99 comments where really enlightening as to how ARM PSA is =
thinking of this (and how it was quite different from mine).

I haven=E2=80=99t come to any conclusions yet. Would be interested to =
understand how identification of a particular Key come from a particular =
Endorsement which comes from fields COSE / JOSE headers and / or =
contained claims for lots of different instantiations and implements of =
of RATS protocols.

LL



> On Apr 7, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> See inline nms>
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 12:12 PM
> To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
> Cc: "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
> =20
> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in =
the related threat.
> =20
> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
> Nms> Certainly any property that is time invariant (about the device) =
can be explicitly captured in Endorsements. Since they are =
time-invariant it doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to Attest to them in =
Evidence (they will always be the same result). I disagree that =
Endorsement MUST ONLY be time invariant claims however.
> Nms> Not sure if the questions below are rhetorical.
> =20
> Endorsement
>> System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or =
maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in =
titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys =
become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
>> =20
>> Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented =
team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? =
Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
>> =20
>> Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? =
Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., =
uses HSMs).
>> =20
>> Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.
>> =20
> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into =
devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is =
often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.=20
> Nms> The idea that a device has an Attesting Environment(s) and Target =
Environment(s) implies the Attesting Environment is/should be more =
hardened is what some refer to as Root-of-Trust. The techniques for =
protecting the Attesting Environment should be immutable/invariant which =
is why some use the term =E2=80=9CHardware Root of Trust=E2=80=9D when =
describing an ideal Attesting Environment.
> =20
> Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.
> Nms> The Endorsement conveys the immutability / property of time =
invariance to the Verifier. It describes the Root of Trust / Attesting =
Env.  Where the attestation key is held because if the root attestation =
sub-system is broken there is no other protection mechanism to fall back =
on for recovery that doesn=E2=80=99t involve physical remediation.
> =20
>  They could even span several models and varying HW.
> Nms> Or not. It depends on the system architecture.
> =20
> Policy, K-G-V, other
> Nms> Policy (aka Appraisal Policy for Evidence, Appraisal Policy for =
Attestation Results) is different from Endorsement. Known Good Values =
are synonymous with Endorsement. The architecture uses one word to =
capture a variety of possible claims that supply chain entities can =
convey to Verifiers. I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to conflate =
Policy with Endorsements. It might make sense for Policy to have an =
opinion as to what is =E2=80=98good=E2=80=99. But it is a case of an =
Owner deciding vs. the manufacturer. It is appropriate for both to have =
something to say about the claim.
>> SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development process =
like that above,
>> =20
>> it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the endorsement.=20
>> Nms> I disagree with this conclusion. The vendor determines which =
version string is applied to SW it produces. That value is an assertion =
only the SW vendor can make. Owner Policy can say that the version is =
=E2=80=98good=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98bad=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98unknown=E2=80=99=
 but can=E2=80=99t say that the version is X.=20
>> =20
>> Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the more it =
is true (and vice versa).
>> =20
>> Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of =
SW, deployments a particular OEM or such
>> Nms> Many entities can produce black/white lists legitimately. If the =
entity is in the supply chain the assertion is an Endorsement. If the =
entity is an Owner then the assertion is a Policy. The difference is in =
how the Verifier treats Endorsements vs. Policies.=20
>> Example:=20
>>       S0) Endorser E0 says Key KD speaks for Device D
>> S1) Attester KD says SW S is extant on D
>>       S2) Endorser E1 says SW S is version 1.0
>>       S3) Endorser E2 says version 1.0 (of S) is bad
>>       S4) Owner policy says version 1.0 (of S) is good.
>>       S5) Owner policy says E1 is trusted to say S is version 1.0
>>       S6) Owner policy says E2 is trusted to say S is good/bad
>>       S7) Owner Policy says E0 is trusted to provision KD on D
>>       Appraisal evaluates the statements:
>> Prove: X =3D SW is extant on device D and it is good.
>> Proof:
>>        S3 says E2 says version 1.0 is bad <and> S6 says E2 can say =
this | valid
>> S2 says E1 says S is version 1.0 <and> S5 says E1 can say this | =
valid
>>        S1 says KD says S is extant on D <and> S7 says KD can say this =
| valid
>>        S0 says KD speaks for D <and> S7 says E0 can say this | valid
>>   Therefore X is FALSE at this point; but
>>        S4 says version 1.0 is good <and> Owner can say anything | =
valid
>>   Therefore X is TRUE
>> =20
>> Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on a =
day-day basis
>> Nms> It depends on the debug mechanism.
>> =20
>> OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip =
vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.
>> Nms> Not sure how this is relevant
> =20
> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put =
into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or =
must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
> Nms> Devices can be a mix of hardware and firmware. Even hardware can =
be mutable. Endorsements describe the mutability properties of the =
device. Endorsement also describe the range of possible (and acceptable) =
values the mutable properties can accept.
> =20
> =20
> I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM.
> Nms> I disagree.
> The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG.=20
> Nms> No, the TCG specifies interfaces not implementation.
> HW TPMs are almost always certified.=20
> Nms> An independent evaluation entity specifies how an implementation =
scored according to the criteria. There are lots of TPMs that are not =
certified or are certified to different levels. The important point =
should be that the Verifier doesn=E2=80=99t know unless it asks for =
Evidence and Endorsements.
> They are independent of OEM model.=20
> Nms> This isn=E2=80=99t true. Every TPM has a vendor, model/product =
name etc=E2=80=A6 that is not chosen by TCG.
> It also lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up =
with TEE=E2=80=99s. =20
> =20
> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.
> Nms> I agree that the Attesting Environment is trusted by the Target =
Environment. If the Attesting Environment is compromised, there is no =
way for the Target Environment trustworthiness to be assessed.
> =20
> =20
> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicr=
o endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs.=20
> Nms> I disagree with this characterization of TPMs. Each vendor=E2=80=99=
s TPM product is different and has different intrinsic trustworthiness =
properties. Many are CC evaluated and some achieve a similar score. That =
doesn=E2=80=99t mean they are the same product.
> Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product. =20
> =20
> Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different =
key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For =
example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy =
and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual =
keys that chain up.=20
> Nms> The root of a X.509 hierarchy is called a =E2=80=9CRoot CA=E2=80=9D=
. A policy that accepts a Root CA public key/cert is called a =E2=80=9CTru=
st Anchor=E2=80=9D. A trust anchor management protocol that conveys a =
trust anchor to a Verifier is an Endorsement of a Root CA that chains to =
an attestation key. The Endorsement might be useful for constructing a =
policy similar to =E2=80=9CS0=E2=80=9D above. (It isn=E2=80=99t saying =
more than that IMO)
> =20
> With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per =
endorsement.
> Nms> I don=E2=80=99t think the architecture should try to define =
=E2=80=98micro endorsement=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98macro endorsement=E2=80=99=
.
> =20
> =20
> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
> Nms> The first line in the Endorsement section of the architecture =
document says this almost verbatim.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> Hi Laurence,
>>=20
>> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>>=20
>> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence =
it
>>> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>>>=20
>>> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator =
ID.
>>> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination =
claim
>>> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
>>> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>>>=20
>>> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
>>> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
>>> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs =
to
>>> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
>>> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
>>> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs =
to be
>>> discussed in the architecture doc.
>>>=20
>>> There's a few scenarios:
>>> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>>>  each has their own attestation key.
>>> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
>>> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
>>> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>>>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
>>> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>>>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>>>=20
>>> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
>>> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
>>> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
>>> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
>>> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are =
like
>>> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
>>> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>>>=20
>>> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
>>> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t =
have to
>>> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
>>> material to verify it.
>>>=20
>>> Thoughts?
>>=20
>> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
>> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you =
to
>> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), =
while
>> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
>> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
>> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
>> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>>=20
>> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: =
I
>> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
>> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>>=20
>> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
>> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
>> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
>> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
>> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>>=20
>> cheers, thanks!
>>=20
>> [1] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-imple=
mentation-id =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-impl=
ementation-id>
>> [2] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-insta=
nce-id =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-inst=
ance-id>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

--Apple-Mail=_FBEA95B0-381D-437F-ACF9-1DDF406E2CE5
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ned,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Seems like =
there is general agreement on the core purpose of the endorsement =E2=80=94=
 describing the security characteristics of the Endorser.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not =
advocating any definitions in the architecture document here. I was =
after some general characteristics and common understanding. I know =
implementations are going to vary wildly.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To be more clear on =E2=80=9COEM =
model=E2=80=9D. I was using that to refer to the end device like a =
router, a phone or a washing machine, not the manufacturer of a chip, a =
TPM or a TEE. &nbsp;The TEE might be the Attester and might be the same =
Attester with the same endorsement that is in both a Motorola phone and =
a Sony phone, each with a different OEM Model claim.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When I was referring to =
a =E2=80=9Cproduct line of TPMs=E2=80=9D, I was thinking of several very =
similar models from the same TPM vendor. Seems like this would share the =
more invariant characteristics of a Endorsement and maybe could share an =
Endorsement. However, I have no strong sense that it has to be one way =
or the other.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One of the main reasons =
I=E2=80=99ve dug into all this is to try to understand how Endorsements =
and Verification Keys are identified in the Evidence so we can define =
what is needed in EAT. That was the main reason for distinguishing micro =
and macro endorsements. It is not to have them formally =
defined.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thomas=E2=80=99 comments where really enlightening as to how =
ARM PSA is thinking of this (and how it was quite different from =
mine).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
haven=E2=80=99t come to any conclusions yet. Would be interested to =
understand how identification of a particular Key come from a particular =
Endorsement which comes from fields COSE / JOSE headers and / or =
contained claims for lots of different instantiations and implements of =
of RATS protocols.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 7, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">See inline =
nms&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, April 7, 2020 =
at 12:12 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Smith, Ned" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Rats] Endorsement =
ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into =
Results)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on =
debug in the related threat.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">My inclination is to associate endorsements with =
time-invariant characteristics of the device. At the moment this =
doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the only way to do it, but it seems like a =
good way. Things that are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or =
such.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; =
Certainly any property that is time invariant (about the device) can be =
explicitly captured in Endorsements. Since they are time-invariant it =
doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to Attest to them in Evidence (they will =
always be the same result). I disagree that Endorsement MUST ONLY be =
time invariant claims however.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; Not sure if the questions =
below are rhetorical.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: 30pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the =
Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a =
simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. Is defense against chip =
invasive attacks considered? Do keys become inaccessible when debug is =
enabled.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special =
security-oriented team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is =
there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW =
development isolated?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a =
special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some =
way (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve =
and will usually require some of the above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My thinking for EAT was =
that you only put attestation keys into devices that meet some criteria =
like some of the above. Since there is often no way to recover from a =
compromised attestation key because no key more secure than it, you kind =
of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; The idea that a device has =
an Attesting Environment(s) and Target Environment(s) implies the =
Attesting Environment is/should be more hardened is what some refer to =
as Root-of-Trust. The techniques for protecting the Attesting =
Environment should be immutable/invariant which is why some use the term =
=E2=80=9CHardware Root of Trust=E2=80=9D when describing an ideal =
Attesting Environment.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the =
endorsement wouldn=E2=80=99t change.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; The Endorsement conveys the =
immutability / property of time invariance to the Verifier. It describes =
the Root of Trust / Attesting Env. &nbsp;Where the attestation key is =
held because if the root attestation sub-system is broken there is no =
other protection mechanism to fall back on for recovery that doesn=E2=80=99=
t involve physical remediation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;They could even span several models and varying HW.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; Or =
not. It depends on the system architecture.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Policy, =
K-G-V, other<o:p class=3D""></o:p></u></b></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; Policy (aka Appraisal Policy for Evidence, Appraisal =
Policy for Attestation Results) is different from Endorsement. Known =
Good Values are synonymous with Endorsement. The architecture uses one =
word to capture a variety of possible claims that supply chain entities =
can convey to Verifiers. I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to =
conflate Policy with Endorsements. It might make sense for Policy to =
have an opinion as to what is =E2=80=98good=E2=80=99. But it is a case =
of an Owner deciding vs. the manufacturer. It is appropriate for both to =
have something to say about the claim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: =
30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW =
follows a development process like that above,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; I =
disagree with this conclusion. The vendor determines which version =
string is applied to SW it produces. That value is an assertion only the =
SW vendor can make. Owner Policy can say that the version is =E2=80=98good=
=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98bad=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98unknown=E2=80=99 but =
can=E2=80=99t say that the version is X.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the =
more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, =
versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or such<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; Many =
entities can produce black/white lists legitimately. If the entity is in =
the supply chain the assertion is an Endorsement. If the entity is an =
Owner then the assertion is a Policy. The difference is in how the =
Verifier treats Endorsements vs. Policies.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Example:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S0) Endorser E0 says Key KD =
speaks for Device D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 6pt;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">S1) Attester =
KD says SW S is extant on D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S2) =
Endorser E1 says SW S is version 1.0<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S3) Endorser E2 says version =
1.0 (of S) is bad<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S4) Owner policy says version =
1.0 (of S) is good.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S5) =
Owner policy says E1 is trusted to say S is version 1.0<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S6) Owner policy says E2 is =
trusted to say S is good/bad<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S7) =
Owner Policy says E0 is trusted to provision KD on D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Appraisal evaluates the =
statements:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Prove: X =3D SW is extant on device D and it is good.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Proof:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S3 says E2 says version 1.0 is bad &lt;and&gt; =
S6 says E2 can say this | valid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.25in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">S2 says E1 =
says S is version 1.0 &lt;and&gt; S5 says E1 can say this | valid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S1 says KD says S is extant on D &lt;and&gt; S7 =
says KD can say this | valid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
S0 says KD speaks for D &lt;and&gt; S7 says E0 can say this | valid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
Therefore X is FALSE at this point; but<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; S4 says version 1.0 is =
good &lt;and&gt; Owner can say anything | valid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
66pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
Therefore X is TRUE<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can =
vary on a day-day basis<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; It depends on the debug mechanism.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation =
is implemented by a chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, =
then the OEM model will vary widely.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; Not sure how this is =
relevant<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation =
key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing =
time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; =
Devices can be a mix of hardware and firmware. Even hardware can be =
mutable. Endorsements describe the mutability properties of the device. =
Endorsement also describe the range of possible (and acceptable) values =
the mutable properties can accept.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty =
well for a TPM.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; I disagree.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The system architecture is mostly set =
by the TCG.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; No, =
the TCG specifies interfaces not implementation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">HW TPMs =
are almost always certified.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; An =
independent evaluation entity specifies how an implementation scored =
according to the criteria. There are lots of TPMs that are not certified =
or are certified to different levels. The important point should be that =
the Verifier doesn=E2=80=99t know unless it asks for Evidence and =
Endorsements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">They are independent of OEM model.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; This =
isn=E2=80=99t true. Every TPM has a vendor, model/product name etc=E2=80=A6=
 that is not chosen by TCG.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It also lines up reasonably well with =
secure elements and can line up with TEE=E2=80=99s. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The crux of endorsement to me is the =
security characteristics of the attester that protect the attestation =
key because there is generally no recovery from a compromised =
attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and SW of the =
device.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; I agree that the Attesting Environment is trusted by =
the Target Environment. If the Attesting Environment is compromised, =
there is no way for the Target Environment trustworthiness to be =
assessed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device =
(=E2=80=9Cmicro endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA =
are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product =
line&nbsp;(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of =
TPMs.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; I =
disagree with this characterization of TPMs. Each vendor=E2=80=99s TPM =
product is different and has different intrinsic trustworthiness =
properties. Many are CC evaluated and some achieve a similar score. That =
doesn=E2=80=99t mean they are the same product.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then =
it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to =
fan this out to the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, =
group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endorsement could include =
the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual devices (or groups of =
devices) would have individual keys that chain up.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Nms&gt; The =
root of a X.509 hierarchy is called a =E2=80=9CRoot CA=E2=80=9D. A =
policy that accepts a Root CA public key/cert is called a =E2=80=9CTrust =
Anchor=E2=80=9D. A trust anchor management protocol that conveys a trust =
anchor to a Verifier is an Endorsement of a Root CA that chains to an =
attestation key. The Endorsement might be useful for constructing a =
policy similar to =E2=80=9CS0=E2=80=9D above. (It isn=E2=80=99t saying =
more than that IMO)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be =
per endorsement.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; I don=E2=80=99t think the architecture should try to =
define =E2=80=98micro endorsement=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98macro =
endorsement=E2=80=99.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The most important thing about the =
endorsement seems to me is the characterization of how the attestation =
key is protected.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Nms&gt; The first line in the Endorsement section of the =
architecture document says this almost verbatim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas =
Fossati &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for bringing =
this up. &nbsp;A few thoughts below.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"<br =
class=3D"">&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">on behalf =
of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-caps: normal; =
text-align: start; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">So how does a Verifier find the =
applicable endorsement for Evidence it<br class=3D"">wishes to verify =
and know that is really the right endorsement?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement =
locator ID.<br class=3D"">This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently =
has the origination claim<br class=3D"">to try to solve this, but it is =
half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=99m<br class=3D"">fishing for =
comments here on what it should be like.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the =
public<br class=3D"">key that is used to verify the signature. Without =
that, the Attester<br class=3D"">could lie and pick any old Endorsement =
that it wishes. There needs to<br class=3D"">be some binding between =
items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the<br =
class=3D"">verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token =
or<br class=3D"">certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty =
sure this needs to be<br class=3D"">discussed in the architecture =
doc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a few scenarios:<br class=3D"">-=
 One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br class=3D"">- - =
Probably ECDAA fits in here<br class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 =
hierarchy<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or =
other) so there is a<br class=3D"">&nbsp;one-one correlation with the =
Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used, =
but across devices that have different<br class=3D"">&nbsp;endorsements =
so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur,<br class=3D"">because from a lot of real experience the set up of =
attestation keys<br class=3D"">is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly =
affected by manufacturing costs<br class=3D"">and issues on assembly =
lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br class=3D"">secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br =
class=3D"">snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement =
locator ID<br class=3D"">and key ID are not the same, but they can be in =
some use cases?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am also tempted to =
encourage the placement of the endorsement<br class=3D"">locator ID in =
the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to<br =
class=3D"">parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the =
key<br class=3D"">material to verify it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">A two level lookup =
key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally<br class=3D"">applicable =
as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part would get you to<br =
class=3D"">the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, =
etc.), while<br class=3D"">the instance part can be used to retrieve =
device-specific state:<br class=3D"">verification key(s) as well as =
other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br class=3D"">blacklisted. =
&nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)<br =
class=3D"">similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Context-switching for a second on our =
previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br class=3D"">guess we might model an =
instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br class=3D"">treat EUIDs as =
the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, =
I'd prefer<br class=3D"">keeping model and instance identifiers as =
separate claims rather than<br class=3D"">having an opaque endorsement =
ID claim that clumps together those and<br class=3D"">possibly other =
stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br =
class=3D"">reason I would not override key ID with instance ID =
semantics.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">cheers, thanks!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a=
 =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#na=
me-implementation-id" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-implementation-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[2]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#na=
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#name-instance-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Laurence,

did you really mean "describing the security characteristics of the 
Endorser" or instead "describing the security characteristics of the 
Attester by an Endorser"?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 08.04.20 22:06, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Ned,
> 
> Seems like there is general agreement on the core purpose of the 
> endorsement — describing the security characteristics of the Endorser.
> 
> I’m not advocating any definitions in the architecture document here. I 
> was after some general characteristics and common understanding. I know 
> implementations are going to vary wildly.
> 
> To be more clear on “OEM model”. I was using that to refer to the end 
> device like a router, a phone or a washing machine, not the manufacturer 
> of a chip, a TPM or a TEE.  The TEE might be the Attester and might be 
> the same Attester with the same endorsement that is in both a Motorola 
> phone and a Sony phone, each with a different OEM Model claim.
> 
> When I was referring to a “product line of TPMs”, I was thinking of 
> several very similar models from the same TPM vendor. Seems like this 
> would share the more invariant characteristics of a Endorsement and 
> maybe could share an Endorsement. However, I have no strong sense that 
> it has to be one way or the other.
> 
> 
> One of the main reasons I’ve dug into all this is to try to understand 
> how Endorsements and Verification Keys are identified in the Evidence so 
> we can define what is needed in EAT. That was the main reason for 
> distinguishing micro and macro endorsements. It is not to have them 
> formally defined.
> 
> Thomas’ comments where really enlightening as to how ARM PSA is thinking 
> of this (and how it was quite different from mine).
> 
> I haven’t come to any conclusions yet. Would be interested to understand 
> how identification of a particular Key come from a particular 
> Endorsement which comes from fields COSE / JOSE headers and / or 
> contained claims for lots of different instantiations and implements of 
> of RATS protocols.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 7, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com 
>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>
>> See inline nms>
>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on 
>> behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>> *Date:*Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 12:12 PM
>> *To:*Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com 
>> <mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com 
>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was 
>> Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
>> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned’s message on debug in the 
>> related threat.
>> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant 
>> characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn’t seem like 
>> the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that are 
>> not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
>> Nms> Certainly any property that is time invariant (about the device) 
>> can be explicitly captured in Endorsements. Since they are 
>> time-invariant it doesn’t make sense to Attest to them in Evidence 
>> (they will always be the same result). I disagree that Endorsement 
>> MUST ONLY be time invariant claims however.
>> Nms> Not sure if the questions below are rhetorical.
>> *_Endorsement_*
>>> System architecture — Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe 
>>> it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in 
>>> titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do 
>>> keys become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
>>> Development process — Is there a special security-oriented team? Does 
>>> the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the 
>>> desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
>>> Manufacturing — Are the factories secured in a special way? Is the 
>>> attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses 
>>> HSMs).
>>> Certifications — These take a long time to achieve and will usually 
>>> require some of the above.
>> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into 
>> devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is 
>> often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no 
>> key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.
>> Nms> The idea that a device has an Attesting Environment(s) and Target 
>> Environment(s) implies the Attesting Environment is/should be more 
>> hardened is what some refer to as Root-of-Trust. The techniques for 
>> protecting the Attesting Environment should be immutable/invariant 
>> which is why some use the term “Hardware Root of Trust” when 
>> describing an ideal Attesting Environment.
>> Since these don’t change much over time, the endorsement wouldn’t change.
>> Nms> The Endorsement conveys the immutability / property of time 
>> invariance to the Verifier. It describes the Root of Trust / Attesting 
>> Env.  Where the attestation key is held because if the root 
>> attestation sub-system is broken there is no other protection 
>> mechanism to fall back on for recovery that doesn’t involve physical 
>> remediation.
>>  They could even span several models and varying HW.
>> Nms> Or not. It depends on the system architecture.
>> *_Policy, K-G-V, other_*
>> Nms> Policy (aka Appraisal Policy for Evidence, Appraisal Policy for 
>> Attestation Results) is different from Endorsement. Known Good Values 
>> are synonymous with Endorsement. The architecture uses one word to 
>> capture a variety of possible claims that supply chain entities can 
>> convey to Verifiers. I don’t think it makes sense to conflate Policy 
>> with Endorsements. It might make sense for Policy to have an opinion 
>> as to what is ‘good’. But it is a case of an Owner deciding vs. the 
>> manufacturer. It is appropriate for both to have something to say 
>> about the claim.
>>> SW Versions — As long as the SW follows a development process like 
>>> that above,
>>> it doesn’t have to be included in the endorsement.
>>> Nms> I disagree with this conclusion. The vendor determines which 
>>> version string is applied to SW it produces. That value is an 
>>> assertion only the SW vendor can make. Owner Policy can say that the 
>>> version is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or ‘unknown’ but can’t say that the 
>>> version is X.
>>> Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the more it 
>>> is true (and vice versa).
>>> Blacklists — These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, 
>>> deployments a particular OEM or such
>>> Nms> Many entities can produce black/white lists legitimately. If the 
>>> entity is in the supply chain the assertion is an Endorsement. If the 
>>> entity is an Owner then the assertion is a Policy. The difference is 
>>> in how the Verifier treats Endorsements vs. Policies.
>>> Example:
>>>       S0) Endorser E0 says Key KD speaks for Device D
>>> S1) Attester KD says SW S is extant on D
>>>       S2) Endorser E1 says SW S is version 1.0
>>>       S3) Endorser E2 says version 1.0 (of S) is bad
>>>       S4) Owner policy says version 1.0 (of S) is good.
>>>       S5) Owner policy says E1 is trusted to say S is version 1.0
>>>       S6) Owner policy says E2 is trusted to say S is good/bad
>>>       S7) Owner Policy says E0 is trusted to provision KD on D
>>>       Appraisal evaluates the statements:
>>> Prove: X = SW is extant on device D and it is good.
>>> Proof:
>>>        S3 says E2 says version 1.0 is bad <and> S6 says E2 can say 
>>> this | valid
>>> S2 says E1 says S is version 1.0 <and> S5 says E1 can say this | valid
>>>        S1 says KD says S is extant on D <and> S7 says KD can say this 
>>> | valid
>>>        S0 says KD speaks for D <and> S7 says E0 can say this | valid
>>>   Therefore X is FALSE at this point; but
>>>        S4 says version 1.0 is good <and> Owner can say anything | valid
>>>   Therefore X is TRUE
>>> Debug status — Most of the debug status values can vary on a day-day 
>>> basis
>>> Nms> It depends on the debug mechanism.
>>> OEM model — If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor and 
>>> the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary widely.
>>> Nms> Not sure how this is relevant
>> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put 
>> into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time 
>> and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
>> Nms> Devices can be a mix of hardware and firmware. Even hardware can 
>> be mutable. Endorsements describe the mutability properties of the 
>> device. Endorsement also describe the range of possible (and 
>> acceptable) values the mutable properties can accept.
>> I think what I’ve described above lines up pretty well for a TPM.
>> Nms> I disagree.
>> The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG.
>> Nms> No, the TCG specifies interfaces not implementation.
>> HW TPMs are almost always certified.
>> Nms> An independent evaluation entity specifies how an implementation 
>> scored according to the criteria. There are lots of TPMs that are not 
>> certified or are certified to different levels. The important point 
>> should be that the Verifier doesn’t know unless it asks for Evidence 
>> and Endorsements.
>> They are independent of OEM model.
>> Nms> This isn’t true. Every TPM has a vendor, model/product name etc… 
>> that is not chosen by TCG.
>> It also lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up 
>> with TEE’s.
>> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the 
>> attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally 
>> no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline 
>> risk of the HW and SW of the device.
>> Nms> I agree that the Attesting Environment is trusted by the Target 
>> Environment. If the Attesting Environment is compromised, there is no 
>> way for the Target Environment trustworthiness to be assessed.
>> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (“micro 
>> endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending 
>> towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product 
>> line (“macro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs.
>> Nms> I disagree with this characterization of TPMs. Each vendor’s TPM 
>> product is different and has different intrinsic trustworthiness 
>> properties. Many are CC evaluated and some achieve a similar score. 
>> That doesn’t mean they are the same product.
>> Then it’s more like the data sheet for the product.
>> Then there’s different ways to fan this out to the different key / 
>> signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example 
>> a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy and 
>> the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual 
>> keys that chain up.
>> Nms> The root of a X.509 hierarchy is called a “Root CA”. A policy 
>> that accepts a Root CA public key/cert is called a “Trust Anchor”. A 
>> trust anchor management protocol that conveys a trust anchor to a 
>> Verifier is an Endorsement of a Root CA that chains to an attestation 
>> key. The Endorsement might be useful for constructing a policy similar 
>> to “S0” above. (It isn’t saying more than that IMO)
>> With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per 
>> endorsement.
>> Nms> I don’t think the architecture should try to define ‘micro 
>> endorsement’ or ‘macro endorsement’.
>> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the 
>> characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
>> Nms> The first line in the Endorsement section of the architecture 
>> document says this almost verbatim.
>> LL
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com 
>>> <mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>
>>> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>>>
>>> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>on behalf 
>>> oflgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
>>>> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>>>>
>>>> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
>>>> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
>>>> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I’m
>>>> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>>>>
>>>> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
>>>> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
>>>> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
>>>> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,…) and the
>>>> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
>>>> certificate, but doesn’t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be
>>>> discussed in the architecture doc.
>>>>
>>>> There's a few scenarios:
>>>> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>>>>  each has their own attestation key.
>>>> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
>>>> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
>>>> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>>>>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
>>>> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>>>>  endorsements so there’s no one-one correlation
>>>>
>>>> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
>>>> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
>>>> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
>>>> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
>>>> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
>>>> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
>>>> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>>>>
>>>> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
>>>> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don’t have to
>>>> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
>>>> material to verify it.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
>>> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
>>> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
>>> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
>>> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
>>> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
>>> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>>>
>>> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I
>>> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
>>> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality == 1?)
>>>
>>> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
>>> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
>>> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
>>> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
>>> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>>>
>>> cheers, thanks!
>>>
>>> [1]https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-implementation-id
>>> [2]https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-instance-id
>>>
>>>
>>>
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CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/sLpjYz8WvjMEY0wHMTq3R3aIGYc>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Laurence,
  I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains to EA=
T, but I'd like to make sure we're not missing something on the RIV side.
  For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding the ri=
ght manifest shouldn't be that hard...
  The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation keys =
as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the vendor i=
dentity for the root of trust.  The measurement logs contain the alleged pr=
oduct name and version number for the software installed on the box.  Use t=
he vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor's product and version s=
pace, and find the RIM that matches.  Then check if the hashes line up; if =
so, you're good, if not, either the claim of what software is present was i=
ncorrect, or something got hacked.
  Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the entire cha=
in of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there are no gaps in=
 the chain.
  I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let me kn=
ow if you think we're oversimplifying this on RIV.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned's message on debug in the related th=
reat.

My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant characteris=
tics of the device. At the moment this doesn't seem like the only way to do=
 it, but it seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are p=
olicy, k-g-v or such.

Endorsement
System architecture - Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it is s=
imple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. Is defe=
nse against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys become inaccessible w=
hen debug is enabled.

Development process - Is there a special security-oriented team? Does the t=
eam have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and =
IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?

Manufacturing - Are the factories secured in a special way? Is the attestat=
ion key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses HSMs).

Certifications - These take a long time to achieve and will usually require=
 some of the above.

My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into devices tha=
t meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is often no way to=
 recover from a compromised attestation key because no key more secure than=
 it, you kind of have to have all that.

Since these don't change much over time, the endorsement wouldn't change.  =
They could even span several models and varying HW.

Policy, K-G-V, other
SW Versions - As long as the SW follows a development process like that abo=
ve, it doesn't have to be included in the endorsement. Of course the smalle=
r the SW and the better the process, the more it is true (and vice versa).

Blacklists - These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments =
a particular OEM or such

Debug status - Most of the debug status values can vary on a day-day basis

OEM model - If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor and the endo=
rsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary widely.

None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put into =
a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or must be =
allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.


I think what I've described above lines up pretty well for a TPM. The syste=
m architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are almost always certifie=
d. They are independent of OEM model. It also lines up reasonably well with=
 secure elements and can line up with TEE's.

The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the attest=
er that protect the attestation key because there is generally no recovery =
from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and=
 SW of the device.


On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device ("micro endorseme=
nt"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending towards. The ot=
her extreme is one endorsement for a product line ("macro endorsement"?),, =
say a product line of TPMs. Then it's more like the data sheet for the prod=
uct.

Then there's different ways to fan this out to the different key / signing =
schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endo=
rsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual dev=
ices (or groups of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With =
a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per endorsement.


The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the character=
ization of how the attestation key is protected.

LL



On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com<mailto:T=
homas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,

Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.

On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
<rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lgl@islan=
d-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?

Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I'm
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.

Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,...) and the
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
certificate, but doesn't have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be
discussed in the architecture doc.

There's a few scenarios:
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
 each has their own attestation key.
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
 one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
 endorsements so there's no one-one correlation

While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?

I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don't have to
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
material to verify it.

Thoughts?

A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].

(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)

For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.

cheers, thanks!

[1] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-im=
plementation-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-ts=
chofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ=
8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
[2] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-in=
stance-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofen=
ig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIE=
d6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$>



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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic=
 below mainly pertains to EAT, but I&#8217;d like to make sure we&#8217;re =
not missing something on the RIV side.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity using a TPM, =
it seems like finding the right manifest shouldn&#8217;t be that hard&#8230=
;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned id=
entity and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provid=
es the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of trust.&nbsp; The m=
easurement logs contain the alleged product name
 and version number for the software installed on the box.&nbsp; Use the ve=
ndor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor&#8217;s product and version =
space, and find the RIM that matches.&nbsp; Then check if the hashes line u=
p; if so, you&#8217;re good, if not, either the claim
 of what software is present was incorrect, or something got hacked.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Seems like a verifier could follow this same =
model through the entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as =
long as there are no gaps in the chain.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I know EAT needs to work in a less-constraine=
d environment, but let me know if you think we&#8217;re oversimplifying thi=
s on RIV.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Laurence Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Thomas Fossati &lt;Thomas.Fossati@arm.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Process=
ing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned&#8217;s messa=
ge on debug in the related threat.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My inclination is to associate endorsements with tim=
e-invariant characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn&#8217;t=
 seem like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that=
 are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v
 or such.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Endorsement</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">System architecture &#8212; Does the Attester use a =
TEE or a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is=
 encased in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? =
Do keys become inaccessible when debug is
 enabled.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Development process &#8212; Is there a special secur=
ity-oriented team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug =
bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isol=
ated?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manufacturing &#8212; Are the factories secured in a=
 special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some w=
ay (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Certifications &#8212; These take a long time to ach=
ieve and will usually require some of the above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestatio=
n keys into devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since t=
here is often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because =
no key more secure than it, you kind
 of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since these don&#8217;t change much over time, the e=
ndorsement wouldn&#8217;t change. &nbsp;They could even span several models=
 and varying HW.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Policy, K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SW Versions &#8212; As long as the SW follows a deve=
lopment process like that above, it doesn&#8217;t have to be included in th=
e endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the=
 more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Blacklists &#8212; These might be specific to UEIDs,=
 versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or such<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Debug status &#8212; Most of the debug status values=
 can vary on a day-day basis<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OEM model &#8212; If the attestation is implemented =
by a chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model wi=
ll vary widely.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attes=
tation key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturi=
ng time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think what I&#8217;ve described above lines up pre=
tty well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TP=
Ms are almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements
 and can line up with TEE&#8217;s. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The crux of endorsement to me is the security charac=
teristics of the attester that protect the attestation key because there is=
 generally no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the base=
line risk of the HW and SW of the
 device.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every d=
evice (&#8220;micro endorsement&quot;?), which is what I think Thomas and A=
RM PSA are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a prod=
uct line&nbsp;(&#8220;macro endorsement&quot;?),, say a product
 line of TPMs. Then it&#8217;s more like the data sheet for the product.&nb=
sp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then there&#8217;s different ways to fan this out to=
 the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.5=
09). For example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hie=
rarchy and the individual devices (or groups
 of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a micro-endorse=
ment the per-device public key could be per endorsement.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The most important thing about the endorsement seems=
 to me is the characterization of how the attestation key is protected.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Laurence,<br>
<br>
Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few thoughts below.<br>
<br>
On 03/04/2020, 20:37, &quot;RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade&quot;<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">rats-bounces@ietf.org=
</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">on
 behalf of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=
=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;
 wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorse=
ment for Evidence it<br>
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?<br>
<br>
Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br>
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim<br>
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I&#8217;=
m<br>
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.<br>
<br>
Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public<br>
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester<br>
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to<br>
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,&#8230;) and the<b=
r>
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or<br>
certificate, but doesn&#8217;t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be<br>
discussed in the architecture doc.<br>
<br>
There's a few scenarios:<br>
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br>
&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br>
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here<br>
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy<br>
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a<br>
&nbsp;one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br>
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different<br>
&nbsp;endorsements so there&#8217;s no one-one correlation<br>
<br>
While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,<br>
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys<br>
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs<br>
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br>
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br>
snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement locator ID<br=
>
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?<br>
<br>
I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement<br>
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don&#8217;t have to=
<br>
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key<br>
material to verify it.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
A two level lookup key, model&#43;instance, seems to be quite generally<br>
applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part would get you to=
<br>
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br>
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:<br>
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br>
blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)<br>
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].<br>
<br>
(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br>
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br>
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br>
<br>
For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer<br>
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than<br>
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and<br>
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br>
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.<br>
<br>
cheers, thanks!<br>
<br>
[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-t=
oken-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka4=
5lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/id/=
draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-implementation-id</span></a><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=
<br>
[2]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-t=
oken-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm=
1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-=
tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-instance-id</span></a><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:23:21 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Attester by Endorser. Thanks for the correction, Henk.

LL


> On Apr 9, 2020, at 2:46 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> did you really mean "describing the security characteristics of the =
Endorser" or instead "describing the security characteristics of the =
Attester by an Endorser"?
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 08.04.20 22:06, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Ned,
>> Seems like there is general agreement on the core purpose of the =
endorsement =E2=80=94 describing the security characteristics of the =
Endorser.
>> I=E2=80=99m not advocating any definitions in the architecture =
document here. I was after some general characteristics and common =
understanding. I know implementations are going to vary wildly.
>> To be more clear on =E2=80=9COEM model=E2=80=9D. I was using that to =
refer to the end device like a router, a phone or a washing machine, not =
the manufacturer of a chip, a TPM or a TEE.  The TEE might be the =
Attester and might be the same Attester with the same endorsement that =
is in both a Motorola phone and a Sony phone, each with a different OEM =
Model claim.
>> When I was referring to a =E2=80=9Cproduct line of TPMs=E2=80=9D, I =
was thinking of several very similar models from the same TPM vendor. =
Seems like this would share the more invariant characteristics of a =
Endorsement and maybe could share an Endorsement. However, I have no =
strong sense that it has to be one way or the other.
>> One of the main reasons I=E2=80=99ve dug into all this is to try to =
understand how Endorsements and Verification Keys are identified in the =
Evidence so we can define what is needed in EAT. That was the main =
reason for distinguishing micro and macro endorsements. It is not to =
have them formally defined.
>> Thomas=E2=80=99 comments where really enlightening as to how ARM PSA =
is thinking of this (and how it was quite different from mine).
>> I haven=E2=80=99t come to any conclusions yet. Would be interested to =
understand how identification of a particular Key come from a particular =
Endorsement which comes from fields COSE / JOSE headers and / or =
contained claims for lots of different instantiations and implements of =
of RATS protocols.
>> LL
>>> On Apr 7, 2020, at 4:11 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> See inline nms>
>>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> =
on behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>> *Date:*Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 12:12 PM
>>> *To:*Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
>>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
>>> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in =
the related threat.
>>> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
>>> Nms> Certainly any property that is time invariant (about the =
device) can be explicitly captured in Endorsements. Since they are =
time-invariant it doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to Attest to them in =
Evidence (they will always be the same result). I disagree that =
Endorsement MUST ONLY be time invariant claims however.
>>> Nms> Not sure if the questions below are rhetorical.
>>> *_Endorsement_*
>>>> System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM =
or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased =
in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do =
keys become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
>>>> Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented =
team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? =
Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
>>>> Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? =
Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., =
uses HSMs).
>>>> Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.
>>> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into =
devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is =
often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.
>>> Nms> The idea that a device has an Attesting Environment(s) and =
Target Environment(s) implies the Attesting Environment is/should be =
more hardened is what some refer to as Root-of-Trust. The techniques for =
protecting the Attesting Environment should be immutable/invariant which =
is why some use the term =E2=80=9CHardware Root of Trust=E2=80=9D when =
describing an ideal Attesting Environment.
>>> Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.
>>> Nms> The Endorsement conveys the immutability / property of time =
invariance to the Verifier. It describes the Root of Trust / Attesting =
Env.  Where the attestation key is held because if the root attestation =
sub-system is broken there is no other protection mechanism to fall back =
on for recovery that doesn=E2=80=99t involve physical remediation.
>>>  They could even span several models and varying HW.
>>> Nms> Or not. It depends on the system architecture.
>>> *_Policy, K-G-V, other_*
>>> Nms> Policy (aka Appraisal Policy for Evidence, Appraisal Policy for =
Attestation Results) is different from Endorsement. Known Good Values =
are synonymous with Endorsement. The architecture uses one word to =
capture a variety of possible claims that supply chain entities can =
convey to Verifiers. I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to conflate =
Policy with Endorsements. It might make sense for Policy to have an =
opinion as to what is =E2=80=98good=E2=80=99. But it is a case of an =
Owner deciding vs. the manufacturer. It is appropriate for both to have =
something to say about the claim.
>>>> SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development =
process like that above,
>>>> it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the endorsement.
>>>> Nms> I disagree with this conclusion. The vendor determines which =
version string is applied to SW it produces. That value is an assertion =
only the SW vendor can make. Owner Policy can say that the version is =
=E2=80=98good=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98bad=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98unknown=E2=80=99=
 but can=E2=80=99t say that the version is X.
>>>> Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the more =
it is true (and vice versa).
>>>> Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of =
SW, deployments a particular OEM or such
>>>> Nms> Many entities can produce black/white lists legitimately. If =
the entity is in the supply chain the assertion is an Endorsement. If =
the entity is an Owner then the assertion is a Policy. The difference is =
in how the Verifier treats Endorsements vs. Policies.
>>>> Example:
>>>>       S0) Endorser E0 says Key KD speaks for Device D
>>>> S1) Attester KD says SW S is extant on D
>>>>       S2) Endorser E1 says SW S is version 1.0
>>>>       S3) Endorser E2 says version 1.0 (of S) is bad
>>>>       S4) Owner policy says version 1.0 (of S) is good.
>>>>       S5) Owner policy says E1 is trusted to say S is version 1.0
>>>>       S6) Owner policy says E2 is trusted to say S is good/bad
>>>>       S7) Owner Policy says E0 is trusted to provision KD on D
>>>>       Appraisal evaluates the statements:
>>>> Prove: X =3D SW is extant on device D and it is good.
>>>> Proof:
>>>>        S3 says E2 says version 1.0 is bad <and> S6 says E2 can say =
this | valid
>>>> S2 says E1 says S is version 1.0 <and> S5 says E1 can say this | =
valid
>>>>        S1 says KD says S is extant on D <and> S7 says KD can say =
this | valid
>>>>        S0 says KD speaks for D <and> S7 says E0 can say this | =
valid
>>>>   Therefore X is FALSE at this point; but
>>>>        S4 says version 1.0 is good <and> Owner can say anything | =
valid
>>>>   Therefore X is TRUE
>>>> Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on =
a day-day basis
>>>> Nms> It depends on the debug mechanism.
>>>> OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip =
vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.
>>>> Nms> Not sure how this is relevant
>>> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is =
put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time =
and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
>>> Nms> Devices can be a mix of hardware and firmware. Even hardware =
can be mutable. Endorsements describe the mutability properties of the =
device. Endorsement also describe the range of possible (and acceptable) =
values the mutable properties can accept.
>>> I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM.
>>> Nms> I disagree.
>>> The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG.
>>> Nms> No, the TCG specifies interfaces not implementation.
>>> HW TPMs are almost always certified.
>>> Nms> An independent evaluation entity specifies how an =
implementation scored according to the criteria. There are lots of TPMs =
that are not certified or are certified to different levels. The =
important point should be that the Verifier doesn=E2=80=99t know unless =
it asks for Evidence and Endorsements.
>>> They are independent of OEM model.
>>> Nms> This isn=E2=80=99t true. Every TPM has a vendor, model/product =
name etc=E2=80=A6 that is not chosen by TCG.
>>> It also lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line =
up with TEE=E2=80=99s.
>>> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.
>>> Nms> I agree that the Attesting Environment is trusted by the Target =
Environment. If the Attesting Environment is compromised, there is no =
way for the Target Environment trustworthiness to be assessed.
>>> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmi=
cro endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs.
>>> Nms> I disagree with this characterization of TPMs. Each vendor=E2=80=99=
s TPM product is different and has different intrinsic trustworthiness =
properties. Many are CC evaluated and some achieve a similar score. That =
doesn=E2=80=99t mean they are the same product.
>>> Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product.
>>> Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different =
key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For =
example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy =
and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual =
keys that chain up.
>>> Nms> The root of a X.509 hierarchy is called a =E2=80=9CRoot CA=E2=80=9D=
. A policy that accepts a Root CA public key/cert is called a =E2=80=9CTru=
st Anchor=E2=80=9D. A trust anchor management protocol that conveys a =
trust anchor to a Verifier is an Endorsement of a Root CA that chains to =
an attestation key. The Endorsement might be useful for constructing a =
policy similar to =E2=80=9CS0=E2=80=9D above. (It isn=E2=80=99t saying =
more than that IMO)
>>> With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per =
endorsement.
>>> Nms> I don=E2=80=99t think the architecture should try to define =
=E2=80=98micro endorsement=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98macro endorsement=E2=80=99=
.
>>> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
>>> Nms> The first line in the Endorsement section of the architecture =
document says this almost verbatim.
>>> LL
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>>>>=20
>>>> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>on behalf =
oflgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for =
Evidence it
>>>>> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator =
ID.
>>>>> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination =
claim
>>>>> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
>>>>> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the =
public
>>>>> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the =
Attester
>>>>> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs =
to
>>>>> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
>>>>> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
>>>>> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this =
needs to be
>>>>> discussed in the architecture doc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There's a few scenarios:
>>>>> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, =
but
>>>>>  each has their own attestation key.
>>>>> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
>>>>> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
>>>>> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>>>>>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
>>>>> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>>>>>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>>>>>=20
>>>>> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
>>>>> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation =
keys
>>>>> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing =
costs
>>>>> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location =
of
>>>>> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are =
like
>>>>> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator =
ID
>>>>> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
>>>>> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99=
t have to
>>>>> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
>>>>> material to verify it.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>=20
>>>> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
>>>> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you =
to
>>>> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), =
while
>>>> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
>>>> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear =
is
>>>> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
>>>> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>>>>=20
>>>> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID =
discussion: I
>>>> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
>>>> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>>>>=20
>>>> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd =
prefer
>>>> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather =
than
>>>> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those =
and
>>>> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
>>>> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>>>>=20
>>>> cheers, thanks!
>>>>=20
>>>> =
[1]https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-im=
plementation-id
>>>> =
[2]https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-in=
stance-id
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments =
are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Guy,


> On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>   I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains =
to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re not missing =
something on the RIV side.

Was trying for a general description into which TPM-based stuff fits =
too.

>   For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding =
the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t be that hard=E2=80=A6
>   The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation =
keys as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the =
vendor identity for the root of trust.=20

That is to say you have a functioning TPM-based attester. Identity is of =
the Attester only, not the OS Software, right?

> The measurement logs contain the alleged product name and version =
number for the software installed on the box.

Are you saying that the OS software will write its product name and =
version into a TPM measurement log?

> Use the vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99s =
product and version space, and find the RIM that matches.

Presumably the vendor of the device, (e.g., Samsung for a phone, Lenovo =
for a laptop) since vendor=E2=80=99s customize OS SW.

>   Then check if the hashes line up; if so, you=E2=80=99re good, if =
not, either the claim of what software is present was incorrect, or =
something got hacked.

Seems like there=E2=80=99s a step of measuring the OS Software missing. =
That has to be built into the boot loading sequence to be properly =
secure. Step 1 measures the code for Step 2, then Step 2 loads, then =
Step 2 measures code for Step 3 all the while recording the measurements =
in the TPM.  Pretty sure there are lots of OS=E2=80=99s that don=E2=80=99t=
 know how to put measurements into a TPM.

Some TEE-based architectures use the TEE to load and verify a subsystem. =
For example a phone might consist of a TEE, a main OS running Android =
and some subsystems (Audio, cellular modem=E2=80=A6). The TEE takes care =
of the loading and verification of the subsystem SW by reading and =
writing into the subsystems memory, then the TEE signals the subsystem =
to go out of reset. It more or less booted without the subsystem=E2=80=99s=
 CPU doing a thing. (And the TEE can later to a run-time integrity check =
on it, something you can=E2=80=99t do with a TPM).

>   Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the =
entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there =
are no gaps in the chain.

Seems like you need each participant in the chain know how to measure =
and write into the TPM. That doesn=E2=80=99t seem likely to happen to me =
unless the whole architecture was designed around a TPM.

>   I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let =
me know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying this on RIV.

EAT is intended to work in very constrained environments. If you just =
have limited subset of claims, you can build HW to implement EAT. CBOR =
is designed well enough that this is possible.

> =20
>   Thanks

Appreciate these discussions as it helps illuminate the core principles =
at work on the TPM side and the TEE side. Both are secure, AFAIK :-), =
but made different choices and have different capabilities.=20

> /guy
> =20

LL


> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
> To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
> =20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> =20
> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in =
the related threat.
> =20
> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
> =20
> Endorsement
> System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or =
maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in =
titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys =
become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
> =20
> Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented =
team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? =
Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
> =20
> Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? Is =
the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses =
HSMs).
> =20
> Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.
> =20
> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into =
devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is =
often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.=20
> =20
> Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.  They could even span several models and =
varying HW.
> =20
> Policy, K-G-V, other
> SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development process =
like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).
> =20
> Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, =
deployments a particular OEM or such
> =20
> Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on a =
day-day basis
> =20
> OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor =
and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.
> =20
> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put =
into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or =
must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
> =20
> =20
> I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are =
almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. =20
> =20
> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.
> =20
> =20
> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicr=
o endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. Then it=E2=80=
=99s more like the data sheet for the product. =20
> =20
> Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different =
key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For =
example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy =
and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual =
keys that chain up. With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key =
could be per endorsement.
> =20
> =20
> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>=20
> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>=20
> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>=20
> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to =
be
> discussed in the architecture doc.
>=20
> There's a few scenarios:
> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>  each has their own attestation key.
> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>=20
> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>=20
> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t =
have to
> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
> material to verify it.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>=20
> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: =
I
> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>=20
> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>=20
> cheers, thanks!
>=20
> [1] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-imple=
mentation-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd=
6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
> [2] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-insta=
nce-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka4=
5lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$>
>=20
>=20
>=20
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Guy,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr =
9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic below =
mainly pertains to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re =
not missing something on the RIV =
side.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Was =
trying for a general description into which TPM-based stuff fits =
too.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity =
using a TPM, it seems like finding the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t =
be that hard=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity =
and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provides =
the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of =
trust.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That is to say you have a functioning TPM-based =
attester. Identity is of the Attester only, not the OS Software, =
right?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""> The measurement logs contain the =
alleged product name and version number for the software installed on =
the box.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Are =
you saying that the OS software will write its product name and version =
into a TPM measurement log?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""> Use the vendor ID to =
narrow the scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99s product and version space, =
and find the RIM that matches.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Presumably the vendor of the device, (e.g., =
Samsung for a phone, Lenovo for a laptop) since vendor=E2=80=99s =
customize OS SW.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; Then check if the =
hashes line up; if so, you=E2=80=99re good, if not, either the claim of =
what software is present was incorrect, or something got =
hacked.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Seems=
 like there=E2=80=99s a step of measuring the OS Software missing. That =
has to be built into the boot loading sequence to be properly secure. =
Step 1 measures the code for Step 2, then Step 2 loads, then Step 2 =
measures code for Step 3 all the while recording the measurements in the =
TPM. &nbsp;Pretty sure there are lots of OS=E2=80=99s that don=E2=80=99t =
know how to put measurements into a TPM.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Some TEE-based architectures use the TEE to load =
and verify a subsystem. For example a phone might consist of a TEE, a =
main OS running Android and some subsystems (Audio, cellular modem=E2=80=A6=
). The TEE takes care of the loading and verification of the subsystem =
SW by reading and writing into the subsystems memory, then the TEE =
signals the subsystem to go out of reset. It more or less booted without =
the subsystem=E2=80=99s CPU doing a thing. (And the TEE can later to a =
run-time integrity check on it, something you can=E2=80=99t do with a =
TPM).</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; Seems like a verifier could =
follow this same model through the entire chain of trust, even through =
multiple vendors, as long as there are no gaps in the =
chain.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Seems =
like you need each participant in the chain know how to measure and =
write into the TPM. That doesn=E2=80=99t seem likely to happen to me =
unless the whole architecture was designed around a TPM.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; I =
know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let me =
know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying this on =
RIV.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>EAT is =
intended to work in very constrained environments. If you just have =
limited subset of claims, you can build HW to implement EAT. CBOR is =
designed well enough that this is possible.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
Thanks</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Appreciate these discussions as it helps =
illuminate the core principles at work on the TPM side and the TEE side. =
Both are secure, AFAIK :-), but made different choices and have =
different capabilities.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">Juniper Business =
Use Only</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Ned Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID =
and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into =
Results)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Lato, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is a reply to both =
Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in the related threat.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My inclination is to associate =
endorsements with time-invariant characteristics of the device. At the =
moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the only way to do it, but it =
seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are policy, =
k-g-v or such.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or =
a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is =
encased in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks =
considered? Do keys become inaccessible when debug is enabled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Development process =E2=80=94 Is there =
a special security-oriented team? Does the team have a code review =
policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for =
HW and SW development isolated?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a =
special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some =
way (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve =
and will usually require some of the above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My thinking for EAT was =
that you only put attestation keys into devices that meet some criteria =
like some of the above. Since there is often no way to recover from a =
compromised attestation key because no key more secure than it, you kind =
of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the =
endorsement wouldn=E2=80=99t change. &nbsp;They could even span several =
models and varying HW.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Policy, K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development =
process like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be =
specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or =
such<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can =
vary on a day-day basis<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a =
chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will =
vary widely.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation =
key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing =
time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty =
well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW =
TPMs are almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It =
also lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics =
of the attester that protect the attestation key because there is =
generally no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the =
baseline risk of the HW and SW of the device.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device =
(=E2=80=9Cmicro endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA =
are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product =
line&nbsp;(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. =
Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to =
fan this out to the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, =
group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endorsement could include =
the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual devices (or groups of =
devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a =
micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per =
endorsement.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The most important thing about the =
endorsement seems to me is the characterization of how the attestation =
key is protected.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few =
thoughts below.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS =
on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"<br class=3D"">&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">on behalf of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">So how does a Verifier find the applicable =
endorsement for Evidence it<br class=3D"">wishes to verify and know that =
is really the right endorsement?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Seems like =
the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br =
class=3D"">This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the =
origination claim<br class=3D"">to try to solve this, but it is =
half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=99m<br class=3D"">fishing for =
comments here on what it should be like.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the =
public<br class=3D"">key that is used to verify the signature. Without =
that, the Attester<br class=3D"">could lie and pick any old Endorsement =
that it wishes. There needs to<br class=3D"">be some binding between =
items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the<br =
class=3D"">verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token =
or<br class=3D"">certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty =
sure this needs to be<br class=3D"">discussed in the architecture =
doc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a few scenarios:<br class=3D"">-=
 One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br class=3D"">- - =
Probably ECDAA fits in here<br class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 =
hierarchy<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or =
other) so there is a<br class=3D"">&nbsp;one-one correlation with the =
Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used, =
but across devices that have different<br class=3D"">&nbsp;endorsements =
so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur,<br class=3D"">because from a lot of real experience the set up of =
attestation keys<br class=3D"">is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly =
affected by manufacturing costs<br class=3D"">and issues on assembly =
lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br class=3D"">secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br =
class=3D"">snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement =
locator ID<br class=3D"">and key ID are not the same, but they can be in =
some use cases?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am also tempted to =
encourage the placement of the endorsement<br class=3D"">locator ID in =
the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to<br =
class=3D"">parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the =
key<br class=3D"">material to verify it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">A two =
level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally<br =
class=3D"">applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part =
would get you to<br class=3D"">the shared data (e.g., certification, =
measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br class=3D"">the instance part can be =
used to retrieve device-specific state:<br class=3D"">verification =
key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br =
class=3D"">blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not =
entirely)<br class=3D"">similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] =
[2].<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Context-switching for a second on our =
previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br class=3D"">guess we might model an =
instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br class=3D"">treat EUIDs as =
the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, =
I'd prefer<br class=3D"">keeping model and instance identifiers as =
separate claims rather than<br class=3D"">having an opaque endorsement =
ID claim that clumps together those and<br class=3D"">possibly other =
stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br =
class=3D"">reason I would not override key ID with instance ID =
semantics.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">cheers, thanks!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofeni=
g-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3R=
oy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-implementation-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[2]<span =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-instance-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
Thread-Index: AQHWCe9aqBxq4ObY/kGk1JKQQWkxNahuNTGAgABNSQD//81kgIAB0+WAgAFevYA=
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 00:01:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Trying again, after re reading your question a few times (and a few =
not-sent replies).

First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is serving as the =
attester. This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I assume that =
is fairly well understood and in practice today through TPM architecture =
and conventions already in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all =
know it, but I don=E2=80=99t know how this works. I would be interested =
in references and/or a description of it).

Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come from the OS Vendor or =
from the device vendor or even a third party, none of which are the TPM =
vendor. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS, but it is =
open source and the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM =
would probably come from the phone/device vendor. It seems possible to =
have split RIMs where part comes from the the OS vendor and part comes =
from the device vendor.

Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product names and product =
versions are very non-uniform. You couldn=E2=80=99t write much generic =
Verifier code to work with them as they are today. The best attempts at =
making these generic I know of seem EAT=E2=80=99s IEEE-based OEMID, and =
PSA=E2=80=99s EAN-13 based HW version, but I don=E2=80=99t think these =
are enough. Maybe there is something else out there. SWID of some sort?=20=


Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn=E2=80=99t have to be secured =
/ attested, just like key ID=E2=80=99s don=E2=80=99t have to be. If the =
Verifier gets the wrong one, the verification just fails.

This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. Maybe there=E2=80=
=99s a solution in common? My first though is some sort of URI, maybe =
related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the Evidence sent =
to the Verifier. It doesn=E2=80=99t have to be mandatory or used by =
everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at least some.

To be clear, I=E2=80=99m thinking that the Endorsement of the TPM =
Attester is quite separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM. They =
come from completely different vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little =
use to identify the RIM.

LL




> On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>   I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains =
to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re not missing =
something on the RIV side.
>   For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding =
the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t be that hard=E2=80=A6
>   The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation =
keys as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the =
vendor identity for the root of trust.  The measurement logs contain the =
alleged product name and version number for the software installed on =
the box.  Use the vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99=
s product and version space, and find the RIM that matches.  Then check =
if the hashes line up; if so, you=E2=80=99re good, if not, either the =
claim of what software is present was incorrect, or something got =
hacked.
>   Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the =
entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there =
are no gaps in the chain.
>   I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let =
me know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying this on RIV.
> =20
>   Thanks
> /guy
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
> To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
> =20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> =20
> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in =
the related threat.
> =20
> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
> =20
> Endorsement
> System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or =
maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in =
titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys =
become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
> =20
> Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented =
team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? =
Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
> =20
> Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? Is =
the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses =
HSMs).
> =20
> Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.
> =20
> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into =
devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is =
often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.=20
> =20
> Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.  They could even span several models and =
varying HW.
> =20
> Policy, K-G-V, other
> SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development process =
like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).
> =20
> Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, =
deployments a particular OEM or such
> =20
> Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on a =
day-day basis
> =20
> OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor =
and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.
> =20
> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put =
into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or =
must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
> =20
> =20
> I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are =
almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. =20
> =20
> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.
> =20
> =20
> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicr=
o endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. Then it=E2=80=
=99s more like the data sheet for the product. =20
> =20
> Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different =
key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For =
example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy =
and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual =
keys that chain up. With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key =
could be per endorsement.
> =20
> =20
> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>=20
> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>=20
> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>=20
> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to =
be
> discussed in the architecture doc.
>=20
> There's a few scenarios:
> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>  each has their own attestation key.
> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>=20
> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>=20
> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t =
have to
> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
> material to verify it.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>=20
> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: =
I
> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>=20
> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>=20
> cheers, thanks!
>=20
> [1] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-imple=
mentation-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd=
6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
> [2] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-insta=
nce-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka4=
5lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
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recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Trying again, after re reading your question a few times (and =
a few not-sent replies).<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is serving as =
the attester. This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I assume =
that is fairly well understood and in practice today through TPM =
architecture and conventions already in place with things like IDevID. =
(Maybe you all know it, but I don=E2=80=99t know how this works. I would =
be interested in references and/or a description of it).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Next you need to =
identify the RIM. That might come from the OS Vendor or from the device =
vendor or even a third party, none of which are the TPM vendor. For =
example, with Android, Google produces the OS, but it is open source and =
the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM would probably =
come from the phone/device vendor. It seems possible to have split RIMs =
where part comes from the the OS vendor and part comes from the device =
vendor.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Seems =
like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product names and product versions =
are very non-uniform. You couldn=E2=80=99t write much generic Verifier =
code to work with them as they are today. The best attempts at making =
these generic I know of seem EAT=E2=80=99s IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA=E2=80=
=99s EAN-13 based HW version, but I don=E2=80=99t think these are =
enough. Maybe there is something else out there. SWID of some =
sort?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn=E2=80=99t have =
to be secured / attested, just like key ID=E2=80=99s don=E2=80=99t have =
to be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, the verification just =
fails.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. =
Maybe there=E2=80=99s a solution in common? My first though is some sort =
of URI, maybe related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the =
Evidence sent to the Verifier. It doesn=E2=80=99t have to be mandatory =
or used by everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at least =
some.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To be =
clear, I=E2=80=99m thinking that the Endorsement of the TPM Attester is =
quite separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM. They come from =
completely different vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little use to =
identify the RIM.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic below =
mainly pertains to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re =
not missing something on the RIV side.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity =
using a TPM, it seems like finding the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t =
be that hard=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity =
and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provides =
the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of trust.&nbsp; The =
measurement logs contain the alleged product name and version number for =
the software installed on the box.&nbsp; Use the vendor ID to narrow the =
scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99s product and version space, and find =
the RIM that matches.&nbsp; Then check if the hashes line up; if so, =
you=E2=80=99re good, if not, either the claim of what software is =
present was incorrect, or something got hacked.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the entire =
chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there are no =
gaps in the chain.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained =
environment, but let me know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying =
this on RIV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/guy<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Ned Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID =
and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into =
Results)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Lato, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is a reply to both =
Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in the related threat.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My inclination is to associate =
endorsements with time-invariant characteristics of the device. At the =
moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the only way to do it, but it =
seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are policy, =
k-g-v or such.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Endorsement</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or =
a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is =
encased in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks =
considered? Do keys become inaccessible when debug is enabled.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Development process =E2=80=94 Is there =
a special security-oriented team? Does the team have a code review =
policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for =
HW and SW development isolated?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a =
special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some =
way (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve =
and will usually require some of the above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My thinking for EAT was =
that you only put attestation keys into devices that meet some criteria =
like some of the above. Since there is often no way to recover from a =
compromised attestation key because no key more secure than it, you kind =
of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the =
endorsement wouldn=E2=80=99t change. &nbsp;They could even span several =
models and varying HW.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Policy, K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development =
process like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be =
specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or =
such<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can =
vary on a day-day basis<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a =
chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will =
vary widely.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation =
key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing =
time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty =
well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW =
TPMs are almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It =
also lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics =
of the attester that protect the attestation key because there is =
generally no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the =
baseline risk of the HW and SW of the device.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device =
(=E2=80=9Cmicro endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA =
are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product =
line&nbsp;(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. =
Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to =
fan this out to the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, =
group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endorsement could include =
the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual devices (or groups of =
devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a =
micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per =
endorsement.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The most important thing about the =
endorsement seems to me is the characterization of how the attestation =
key is protected.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few =
thoughts below.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS =
on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"<br class=3D"">&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">on behalf of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">So how does a Verifier find the applicable =
endorsement for Evidence it<br class=3D"">wishes to verify and know that =
is really the right endorsement?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Seems like =
the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br =
class=3D"">This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the =
origination claim<br class=3D"">to try to solve this, but it is =
half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=99m<br class=3D"">fishing for =
comments here on what it should be like.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the =
public<br class=3D"">key that is used to verify the signature. Without =
that, the Attester<br class=3D"">could lie and pick any old Endorsement =
that it wishes. There needs to<br class=3D"">be some binding between =
items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the<br =
class=3D"">verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token =
or<br class=3D"">certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty =
sure this needs to be<br class=3D"">discussed in the architecture =
doc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a few scenarios:<br class=3D"">-=
 One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br class=3D"">- - =
Probably ECDAA fits in here<br class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 =
hierarchy<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or =
other) so there is a<br class=3D"">&nbsp;one-one correlation with the =
Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used, =
but across devices that have different<br class=3D"">&nbsp;endorsements =
so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur,<br class=3D"">because from a lot of real experience the set up of =
attestation keys<br class=3D"">is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly =
affected by manufacturing costs<br class=3D"">and issues on assembly =
lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br class=3D"">secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br =
class=3D"">snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement =
locator ID<br class=3D"">and key ID are not the same, but they can be in =
some use cases?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am also tempted to =
encourage the placement of the endorsement<br class=3D"">locator ID in =
the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to<br =
class=3D"">parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the =
key<br class=3D"">material to verify it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">A two =
level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally<br =
class=3D"">applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part =
would get you to<br class=3D"">the shared data (e.g., certification, =
measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br class=3D"">the instance part can be =
used to retrieve device-specific state:<br class=3D"">verification =
key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br =
class=3D"">blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not =
entirely)<br class=3D"">similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] =
[2].<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Context-switching for a second on our =
previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br class=3D"">guess we might model an =
instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br class=3D"">treat EUIDs as =
the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, =
I'd prefer<br class=3D"">keeping model and instance identifiers as =
separate claims rather than<br class=3D"">having an opaque endorsement =
ID claim that clumps together those and<br class=3D"">possibly other =
stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br =
class=3D"">reason I would not override key ID with instance ID =
semantics.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">cheers, thanks!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofeni=
g-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3R=
oy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-implementation-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[2]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofeni=
g-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIE=
d6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-instance-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
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underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
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From: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
Thread-Index: AQHWCe9fJjulv3BN1Eixg7s2QPw1hKhtv9mAgABNSQCAAtYcgIAFAPqAgADOMoA=
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 01:44:19 +0000
Message-ID: <0026A707-C601-4F74-932A-53F3B1F24426@cisco.com>
References: <C3BC4E14-8BF8-4CD5-882B-F7AAF4B9155F@island-resort.com> <BB724659-3075-4ED2-8745-BACBD0D17C2B@island-resort.com> <7FF8F147-968E-40B4-8E46-A8E86094DD4D@island-resort.com> <71AEA046-BF2C-4ACD-AD1F-43E11648127E@arm.com> <E57F3041-A8DD-41B7-8D4A-73BDD5156893@island-resort.com> <DM6PR05MB6889D52B4759285A81C43FA4BAC10@DM6PR05MB6889.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <F153E4FA-E906-4A57-A599-5C9C217A2CBD@island-resort.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/i99GSC-V34VAl0WgrPLbA5TPQSQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Laurence,
  Thanks for your response...  I've added annotations, marked with [guy]...
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)


Trying again, after re reading your question a few times (and a few not-sen=
t replies).

First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is serving as the attester.=
 This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I assume that is fairly w=
ell understood and in practice today through TPM architecture and conventio=
ns already in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all know it, but I =
don't know how this works. I would be interested in references and/or a des=
cription of it).
[guy] Yes, I think most TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement Key an=
d a certificate signed by the TPM manufacturer.  Use of that key is control=
led to prevent unwanted privacy abuses, but it's there specifically to vali=
date the source of the TPM.
  For RIV, I'm not sure that needs to be done by the end-user of the device=
...  the OEM who makes the 'router' (yes, or switch or firewall or access p=
oint) should pre-provision a DevID signed by the OEM, and a trustworthy OEM=
 wouldn't sign an IDevID in their facility without verifying that the TPM t=
hey've just soldered down is authentic.
  Some OEMs actually customize their TPMs slightly to contain their own sig=
nature on the EK, rather than the TPM vendor's, but I don't think that's co=
mmon.
  In addition to the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on verifica=
tion of the certificate that goes with the TPM Attestation key.  We've made=
 that as easy as possible in RIV by pre-provisioning the IAK along with the=
 IDevID, so the two will contain the same identity information, signed by t=
he same vendor.
  For more-generic TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may be in=
appropriate, there's a well-specified series of steps to validate the TPM b=
efore remotely installing the ID or attestation keys.  The TCG spec with th=
e gory details is still in draft, but if you have TCG access, it's called "=
TPM Keys for Platform DevID for TPM2".

Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come from the OS Vendor or fr=
om the device vendor or even a third party, none of which are the TPM vendo=
r. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS, but it is open source=
 and the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM would probably=
 come from the phone/device vendor. It seems possible to have split RIMs wh=
ere part comes from the the OS vendor and part comes from the device vendor=
.
  [guy] Agreed - the RIM will almost certainly not come from the TPM vendor=
.  This seems fundamentally like a task for the system administrator, to de=
cide who they trust for RIMs.  If the OEM or software vendor ships RIMs, th=
at seems like an obvious choice, but administrators can decide any way they=
 want.

Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product names and product versio=
ns are very non-uniform. You couldn't write much generic Verifier code to w=
ork with them as they are today. The best attempts at making these generic =
I know of seem EAT's IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA's EAN-13 based HW version, b=
ut I don't think these are enough. Maybe there is something else out there.=
 SWID of some sort?
[guy] TCG has a draft spec out for public review covering RIM.  'DRAFT: TCG=
 Reference Integrity Manifest Information Model'
    https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r=
13_2feb20.pdf
The doc is completely based on ISO SWID, with the NIST guidelines.  There's=
 a CBOR variant called CoSWID at IETF (I think you can guess which Henk, ou=
t of the universe of all Henks, you could ask for details!)
  If you have interest in commenting on the TCG RIM spec, I know the author=
s would be glad to hear from you.
  But about identity of RIMs...
  The RIM is signed, so once you've done the policy task of deciding which =
RIM supplier you like, verifying it is easy.  I realize of course that ther=
e's little commonality on how to name a product or version, but I'm not sur=
e that matters.  The RIM corresponds to a very specific product and release=
.  The vendor can call it whatever they want, as long as they don't issue t=
wo release with the same name.  After that, I think it's just a string comp=
are.
  I suppose if third-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to explici=
tly call out the software manufacturer by name, but that's already part of =
the SWID & RIM specs.
  As far as we can tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to describe a=
ny software release that can be expressed as files and directories.  I have=
 a small project on my todo list to prove that for a Juniper release, but s=
o far, I don't see a problem.  Again, if you're interested, now is the time=
 for review!


Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn't have to be secured / attested=
, just like key ID's don't have to be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, =
the verification just fails.

This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. Maybe there's a so=
lution in common? My first though is some sort of URI, maybe related to SWI=
D, that is part of the measurements in the Evidence sent to the Verifier. I=
t doesn't have to be mandatory or used by everyone, but it seems likely to =
benefit at least some.
[guy] Henk might have suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.  As no=
ted, SWID is strongly oriented to software releases with packages, director=
ies and files, but maybe there's something useful there.

To be clear, I'm thinking that the Endorsement of the TPM Attester is quite=
 separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM. They come from completely d=
ifferent vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little use to identify the RIM.
[guy] Yes, in fact I think there are at least three suppliers that could be=
 verified; the TPM vendor, the hardware platform OEM who made the Attester,=
 and the RIM supplier who certifies the software image.  Given the way RIV =
is scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is up to the OEM, but ver=
ification of the OEM's DevID and IAK is one thing, and verification of the =
authenticity of the RIM is another independent operation, both of which  be=
long in a RATS-compatible Verifier.
  Let me know what we're missing!
  /guy

LL




On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfed=
orkow@juniper.net>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,
  I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains to EA=
T, but I'd like to make sure we're not missing something on the RIV side.
  For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding the ri=
ght manifest shouldn't be that hard...
  The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation keys =
as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the vendor i=
dentity for the root of trust.  The measurement logs contain the alleged pr=
oduct name and version number for the software installed on the box.  Use t=
he vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor's product and version s=
pace, and find the RIM that matches.  Then check if the hashes line up; if =
so, you're good, if not, either the claim of what software is present was i=
ncorrect, or something got hacked.
  Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the entire cha=
in of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there are no gaps in=
 the chain.
  I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let me kn=
ow if you think we're oversimplifying this on RIV.

  Thanks
/guy



Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com<mai=
lto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned's message on debug in the related th=
reat.

My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant characteris=
tics of the device. At the moment this doesn't seem like the only way to do=
 it, but it seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are p=
olicy, k-g-v or such.

Endorsement
System architecture - Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it is s=
imple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. Is defe=
nse against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys become inaccessible w=
hen debug is enabled.

Development process - Is there a special security-oriented team? Does the t=
eam have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and =
IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?

Manufacturing - Are the factories secured in a special way? Is the attestat=
ion key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses HSMs).

Certifications - These take a long time to achieve and will usually require=
 some of the above.

My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into devices tha=
t meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is often no way to=
 recover from a compromised attestation key because no key more secure than=
 it, you kind of have to have all that.

Since these don't change much over time, the endorsement wouldn't change.  =
They could even span several models and varying HW.

Policy, K-G-V, other
SW Versions - As long as the SW follows a development process like that abo=
ve, it doesn't have to be included in the endorsement. Of course the smalle=
r the SW and the better the process, the more it is true (and vice versa).

Blacklists - These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments =
a particular OEM or such

Debug status - Most of the debug status values can vary on a day-day basis

OEM model - If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor and the endo=
rsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary widely.

None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put into =
a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or must be =
allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.


I think what I've described above lines up pretty well for a TPM. The syste=
m architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are almost always certifie=
d. They are independent of OEM model. It also lines up reasonably well with=
 secure elements and can line up with TEE's.

The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the attest=
er that protect the attestation key because there is generally no recovery =
from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and=
 SW of the device.


On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device ("micro endorseme=
nt"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending towards. The ot=
her extreme is one endorsement for a product line ("macro endorsement"?),, =
say a product line of TPMs. Then it's more like the data sheet for the prod=
uct.

Then there's different ways to fan this out to the different key / signing =
schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endo=
rsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual dev=
ices (or groups of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With =
a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per endorsement.


The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the character=
ization of how the attestation key is protected.

LL



On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com<mailto:T=
homas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,

Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.

On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
<rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lgl@islan=
d-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?

Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I'm
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.

Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,...) and the
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
certificate, but doesn't have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be
discussed in the architecture doc.

There's a few scenarios:
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
 each has their own attestation key.
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
 one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
 endorsements so there's no one-one correlation

While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?

I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don't have to
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
material to verify it.

Thoughts?

A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].

(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)

For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.

cheers, thanks!

[1] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-im=
plementation-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-ts=
chofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ=
8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
[2] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-in=
stance-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofen=
ig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIE=
d6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks for your response&#8230;&nbsp; I&#8217=
;ve added annotations, marked with
<span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy]</span>&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resor=
t.com&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Process=
ing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Trying again, after re reading your question a few t=
imes (and a few not-sent replies).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is s=
erving as the attester. This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I =
assume that is fairly well understood and in practice today through TPM arc=
hitecture and conventions already
 in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all know it, but I don&#8217;=
t know how this works. I would be interested in references and/or a descrip=
tion of it).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Yes, I think mos=
t TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement Key and a certificate signed=
 by the TPM manufacturer.&nbsp; Use of that key is controlled to prevent un=
wanted privacy abuses, but it&#8217;s there specifically
 to validate the source of the TPM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; For RIV, I&#821=
7;m not sure that needs to be done by the end-user of the device&#8230;&nbs=
p; the OEM who makes the &#8216;router&#8217; (yes, or switch or firewall o=
r access point) should pre-provision a DevID signed by the OEM, and a
 trustworthy OEM wouldn&#8217;t sign an IDevID in their facility without ve=
rifying that the TPM they&#8217;ve just soldered down is authentic.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; Some OEMs actua=
lly customize their TPMs slightly to contain their own signature on the EK,=
 rather than the TPM vendor&#8217;s, but I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s c=
ommon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; In addition to =
the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on verification of the certi=
ficate that goes with the TPM Attestation key.&nbsp; We&#8217;ve made that =
as easy as possible in RIV by pre-provisioning the IAK
 along with the IDevID, so the two will contain the same identity informati=
on, signed by the same vendor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; For more-generi=
c TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may be inappropriate, ther=
e&#8217;s a well-specified series of steps to validate the TPM before remot=
ely installing the ID or attestation keys.&nbsp; The
 TCG spec with the gory details is still in draft, but if you have TCG acce=
ss, it&#8217;s called &#8220;TPM Keys for Platform DevID for TPM2&#8221;.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come f=
rom the OS Vendor or from the device vendor or even a third party, none of =
which are the TPM vendor. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS=
, but it is open source and the phone
 (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM would probably come from the=
 phone/device vendor. It seems possible to have split RIMs where part comes=
 from the the OS vendor and part comes from the device vendor.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; [guy] Agreed &#=
8211; the RIM will almost certainly not come from the TPM vendor.&nbsp; Thi=
s seems fundamentally like a task for the system administrator, to decide w=
ho they trust for RIMs.&nbsp; If the OEM or software vendor
 ships RIMs, that seems like an obvious choice, but administrators can deci=
de any way they want.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product n=
ames and product versions are very non-uniform. You couldn&#8217;t write mu=
ch generic Verifier code to work with them as they are today. The best atte=
mpts at making these generic I know of seem
 EAT&#8217;s IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA&#8217;s EAN-13 based HW version, but=
 I don&#8217;t think these are enough. Maybe there is something else out th=
ere. SWID of some sort?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] TCG has a draft =
spec out for public review covering RIM.&nbsp; 'DRAFT: TCG Reference Integr=
ity Manifest Information Model'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_=
v1-r13_2feb20.pdf">
<span style=3D"color:#2F5597">https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/=
uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">The doc is completely =
based on ISO SWID, with the NIST guidelines.&nbsp; There&#8217;s a CBOR var=
iant called CoSWID at IETF (I think you can guess which Henk, out of the un=
iverse of all Henks, you could ask for details!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; If you have int=
erest in commenting on the TCG RIM spec, I know the authors would be glad t=
o hear from you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; But about ident=
ity of RIMs&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; The RIM is sign=
ed, so once you&#8217;ve done the policy task of deciding which RIM supplie=
r you like, verifying it is easy.&nbsp; I realize of course that there&#821=
7;s little commonality on how to name a product or version,
 but I&#8217;m not sure that matters.&nbsp; The RIM corresponds to a very s=
pecific product and release. &nbsp;The vendor can call it whatever they wan=
t, as long as they don&#8217;t issue two release with the same name.&nbsp; =
After that, I think it&#8217;s just a string compare.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; I suppose if th=
ird-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to explicitly call out the =
software manufacturer by name, but that&#8217;s already part of the SWID &a=
mp; RIM specs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; As far as we ca=
n tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to describe any software relea=
se that can be expressed as files and directories.&nbsp; I have a small pro=
ject on my todo list to prove that for a Juniper
 release, but so far, I don&#8217;t see a problem.&nbsp; Again, if you&#821=
7;re interested, now is the time for review!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn&#8217;t =
have to be secured / attested, just like key ID&#8217;s don&#8217;t have to=
 be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, the verification just fails.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT sp=
ace. Maybe there&#8217;s a solution in common? My first though is some sort=
 of URI, maybe related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the Evi=
dence sent to the Verifier. It doesn&#8217;t have
 to be mandatory or used by everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at lea=
st some.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Henk might have =
suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.&nbsp; As noted, SWID is stro=
ngly oriented to software releases with packages, directories and files, bu=
t maybe there&#8217;s something useful there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To be clear, I&#8217;m thinking that the Endorsement=
 of the TPM Attester is quite separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM=
. They come from completely different vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of li=
ttle use to identify the RIM.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Yes, in fact I t=
hink there are at least three suppliers that could be verified; the TPM ven=
dor, the hardware platform OEM who made the Attester, and the RIM supplier =
who certifies the software image.&nbsp; Given
 the way RIV is scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is up to the=
 OEM, but verification of the OEM&#8217;s DevID and IAK is one thing, and v=
erification of the authenticity of the RIM is another independent operation=
, both of which &nbsp;belong in a RATS-compatible
 Verifier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; Let me know wha=
t we&#8217;re missing!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; /guy<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic=
 below mainly pertains to EAT, but I&#8217;d like to make sure we&#8217;re =
not missing something on the RIV side.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity using a TPM, =
it seems like finding the right manifest shouldn&#8217;t be that hard&#8230=
;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned id=
entity and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provid=
es the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of trust.&nbsp; The m=
easurement logs contain the alleged product name
 and version number for the software installed on the box.&nbsp; Use the ve=
ndor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor&#8217;s product and version =
space, and find the RIM that matches.&nbsp; Then check if the hashes line u=
p; if so, you&#8217;re good, if not, either the claim
 of what software is present was incorrect, or something got hacked.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Seems like a verifier could follow this same =
model through the entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as =
long as there are no gaps in the chain.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I know EAT needs to work in a less-constraine=
d environment, but let me know if you think we&#8217;re oversimplifying thi=
s on RIV.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:7.0pt">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span class=3D"apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence
 Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Apr=
il 7, 2020 3:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Fossati=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">rats@ietf.org</span></a>; N=
ed Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">ned.smith@intel.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats=
] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evid=
ence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned&#8217;s messa=
ge on debug in the related threat.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My inclination is to associate endorsements with tim=
e-invariant characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn&#8217;t=
 seem like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that=
 are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v
 or such.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Endorsement</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">System architecture &#8212; Does the Attester use a =
TEE or a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is=
 encased in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? =
Do keys become inaccessible when debug is
 enabled.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Development process &#8212; Is there a special secur=
ity-oriented team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug =
bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isol=
ated?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manufacturing &#8212; Are the factories secured in a=
 special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some w=
ay (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Certifications &#8212; These take a long time to ach=
ieve and will usually require some of the above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestatio=
n keys into devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since t=
here is often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because =
no key more secure than it, you kind
 of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since these don&#8217;t change much over time, the e=
ndorsement wouldn&#8217;t change. &nbsp;They could even span several models=
 and varying HW.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Policy, K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SW Versions &#8212; As long as the SW follows a deve=
lopment process like that above, it doesn&#8217;t have to be included in th=
e endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the=
 more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Blacklists &#8212; These might be specific to UEIDs,=
 versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or such<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Debug status &#8212; Most of the debug status values=
 can vary on a day-day basis<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OEM model &#8212; If the attestation is implemented =
by a chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model wi=
ll vary widely.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attes=
tation key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturi=
ng time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think what I&#8217;ve described above lines up pre=
tty well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TP=
Ms are almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements
 and can line up with TEE&#8217;s. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The crux of endorsement to me is the security charac=
teristics of the attester that protect the attestation key because there is=
 generally no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the base=
line risk of the HW and SW of the
 device.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every d=
evice (&#8220;micro endorsement&quot;?), which is what I think Thomas and A=
RM PSA are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a prod=
uct line&nbsp;(&#8220;macro endorsement&quot;?),, say a product
 line of TPMs. Then it&#8217;s more like the data sheet for the product.&nb=
sp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then there&#8217;s different ways to fan this out to=
 the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.5=
09). For example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hie=
rarchy and the individual devices (or groups
 of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a micro-endorse=
ment the per-device public key could be per endorsement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The most important thing about the endorsement seems=
 to me is the characterization of how the attestation key is protected.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">Thomas.Fo=
ssati@arm.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Laurence,<br>
<br>
Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few thoughts below.<br>
<br>
On 03/04/2020, 20:37, &quot;RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade&quot;<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">rats-bou=
nces@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;=
,sans-serif">on
 behalf of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=
=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">lgl@island-resort.com</spa=
n></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans=
-serif">&gt;
 wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorse=
ment for Evidence it<br>
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?<br>
<br>
Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br>
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim<br>
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I&#8217;=
m<br>
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.<br>
<br>
Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public<br>
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester<br>
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to<br>
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,&#8230;) and the<b=
r>
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or<br>
certificate, but doesn&#8217;t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be<br>
discussed in the architecture doc.<br>
<br>
There's a few scenarios:<br>
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br>
&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br>
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here<br>
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy<br>
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a<br>
&nbsp;one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br>
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different<br>
&nbsp;endorsements so there&#8217;s no one-one correlation<br>
<br>
While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,<br>
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys<br>
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs<br>
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br>
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br>
snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement locator ID<br=
>
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?<br>
<br>
I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement<br>
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don&#8217;t have to=
<br>
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key<br>
material to verify it.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
A two level lookup key, model&#43;instance, seems to be quite generally<br>
applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part would get you to=
<br>
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br>
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:<br>
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br>
blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)<br>
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].<br>
<br>
(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br>
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br>
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br>
<br>
For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer<br>
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than<br>
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and<br>
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br>
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.<br>
<br>
cheers, thanks!<br>
<br>
[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-t=
oken-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka4=
5lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">https://www=
.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-implementation-id=
</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;=
,sans-serif"><br>
[2]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-t=
oken-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm=
1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;f=
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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So I suspect the router world is really different from the IoT world in =
a way that affects the finding of RIMs.=20

Seems like the router world is a small number of manufacturers, less =
than ten. Seems like routers are purchased and managed by very =
technically competent staff that already work with lots of technical =
details. It=E2=80=99s not that hard for network admins to go to the =
router manufacturers web site and download a few RIMs and configure them =
into their verifiers.

Seems like the IoT world involves a much larger number of manufacturers, =
hundreds or even thousands. IoT management is scattered and works in =
lots of different ways. Sometimes it is the device maker itself. =
Sometimes it is an enterprise. Sometimes it is a third party, maybe with =
a fourth and fifth party...

Phones have their own challenge =E2=80=94 they have huge numbers of =
relying parties =E2=80=94 each app is a relying party.

It seems a URI-based scheme for finding RIMs is important for the IoT =
world, and maybe the phone world, but not so much for the router world. =
Seems like it has to be URI-based because that=E2=80=99s the way to =
identify a resource on the broad internet.

It looks like the TCG RIM document =
<https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13=
_2feb20.pdf> already has something like this as mentioned in Appendix C. =
Not sure it is fully developed as it is in an appendix.

The TCG Platform Certificate Profile [10] also defines a =
PlatformConfigurationURI attribute that contains =E2=80=9CURI where the =
reference integrity measurements could be obtained by the verifier=E2=80=9D=
. The Platform Certificates Platform Configuration URI MUST hold a =
reference to the location of the Primary RIM Bundle. The URI MAY point =
to a location on the Endpoint platform or it MAY reside in a publicly =
accessible location. The Base RIM MUST contain a LINK element that =
points to the same URI as the Platform Certificates =
PlatformConfigurationURI.=20


Glad to see the use of CoSWID. Seems like that will line up for EAT as =
well.

LL


> On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>   Thanks for your response=E2=80=A6  I=E2=80=99ve added annotations, =
marked with [guy]=E2=80=A6
> /guy
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>=20
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:56 PM
> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net =
<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
> =20
> =20
> Trying again, after re reading your question a few times (and a few =
not-sent replies).
> =20
> First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is serving as the =
attester. This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I assume that =
is fairly well understood and in practice today through TPM architecture =
and conventions already in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all =
know it, but I don=E2=80=99t know how this works. I would be interested =
in references and/or a description of it).
> [guy] Yes, I think most TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement =
Key and a certificate signed by the TPM manufacturer.  Use of that key =
is controlled to prevent unwanted privacy abuses, but it=E2=80=99s there =
specifically to validate the source of the TPM.
>   For RIV, I=E2=80=99m not sure that needs to be done by the end-user =
of the device=E2=80=A6  the OEM who makes the =E2=80=98router=E2=80=99 =
(yes, or switch or firewall or access point) should pre-provision a =
DevID signed by the OEM, and a trustworthy OEM wouldn=E2=80=99t sign an =
IDevID in their facility without verifying that the TPM they=E2=80=99ve =
just soldered down is authentic.
>   Some OEMs actually customize their TPMs slightly to contain their =
own signature on the EK, rather than the TPM vendor=E2=80=99s, but I =
don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s common.
>   In addition to the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on =
verification of the certificate that goes with the TPM Attestation key.  =
We=E2=80=99ve made that as easy as possible in RIV by pre-provisioning =
the IAK along with the IDevID, so the two will contain the same identity =
information, signed by the same vendor.
>   For more-generic TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may =
be inappropriate, there=E2=80=99s a well-specified series of steps to =
validate the TPM before remotely installing the ID or attestation keys.  =
The TCG spec with the gory details is still in draft, but if you have =
TCG access, it=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9CTPM Keys for Platform DevID for =
TPM2=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come from the OS Vendor =
or from the device vendor or even a third party, none of which are the =
TPM vendor. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS, but it is =
open source and the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM =
would probably come from the phone/device vendor. It seems possible to =
have split RIMs where part comes from the the OS vendor and part comes =
from the device vendor.
>   [guy] Agreed =E2=80=93 the RIM will almost certainly not come from =
the TPM vendor.  This seems fundamentally like a task for the system =
administrator, to decide who they trust for RIMs.  If the OEM or =
software vendor ships RIMs, that seems like an obvious choice, but =
administrators can decide any way they want.
> =20
> Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product names and product =
versions are very non-uniform. You couldn=E2=80=99t write much generic =
Verifier code to work with them as they are today. The best attempts at =
making these generic I know of seem EAT=E2=80=99s IEEE-based OEMID, and =
PSA=E2=80=99s EAN-13 based HW version, but I don=E2=80=99t think these =
are enough. Maybe there is something else out there. SWID of some sort?=20=

> [guy] TCG has a draft spec out for public review covering RIM.  =
'DRAFT: TCG Reference Integrity Manifest Information Model'
>     =
https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13_=
2feb20.pdf =
<https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13=
_2feb20.pdf>
> The doc is completely based on ISO SWID, with the NIST guidelines.  =
There=E2=80=99s a CBOR variant called CoSWID at IETF (I think you can =
guess which Henk, out of the universe of all Henks, you could ask for =
details!)
>   If you have interest in commenting on the TCG RIM spec, I know the =
authors would be glad to hear from you.
>   But about identity of RIMs=E2=80=A6
>   The RIM is signed, so once you=E2=80=99ve done the policy task of =
deciding which RIM supplier you like, verifying it is easy.  I realize =
of course that there=E2=80=99s little commonality on how to name a =
product or version, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that matters.  The RIM =
corresponds to a very specific product and release.  The vendor can call =
it whatever they want, as long as they don=E2=80=99t issue two release =
with the same name.  After that, I think it=E2=80=99s just a string =
compare.
>   I suppose if third-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to =
explicitly call out the software manufacturer by name, but that=E2=80=99s =
already part of the SWID & RIM specs.
>   As far as we can tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to =
describe any software release that can be expressed as files and =
directories.  I have a small project on my todo list to prove that for a =
Juniper release, but so far, I don=E2=80=99t see a problem.  Again, if =
you=E2=80=99re interested, now is the time for review!
> =20
> =20
> Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn=E2=80=99t have to be =
secured / attested, just like key ID=E2=80=99s don=E2=80=99t have to be. =
If the Verifier gets the wrong one, the verification just fails.
> =20
> This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. Maybe =
there=E2=80=99s a solution in common? My first though is some sort of =
URI, maybe related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the =
Evidence sent to the Verifier. It doesn=E2=80=99t have to be mandatory =
or used by everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at least some.
> [guy] Henk might have suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.  =
As noted, SWID is strongly oriented to software releases with packages, =
directories and files, but maybe there=E2=80=99s something useful there.
> =20
> To be clear, I=E2=80=99m thinking that the Endorsement of the TPM =
Attester is quite separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM. They =
come from completely different vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little =
use to identify the RIM.
> [guy] Yes, in fact I think there are at least three suppliers that =
could be verified; the TPM vendor, the hardware platform OEM who made =
the Attester, and the RIM supplier who certifies the software image.  =
Given the way RIV is scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is =
up to the OEM, but verification of the OEM=E2=80=99s DevID and IAK is =
one thing, and verification of the authenticity of the RIM is another =
independent operation, both of which  belong in a RATS-compatible =
Verifier.
>   Let me know what we=E2=80=99re missing!
>   /guy
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net =
<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
>   I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains =
to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re not missing =
something on the RIV side.
>   For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding =
the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t be that hard=E2=80=A6
>   The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation =
keys as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the =
vendor identity for the root of trust.  The measurement logs contain the =
alleged product name and version number for the software installed on =
the box.  Use the vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99=
s product and version space, and find the RIM that matches.  Then check =
if the hashes line up; if so, you=E2=80=99re good, if not, either the =
claim of what software is present was incorrect, or something got =
hacked.
>   Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the =
entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there =
are no gaps in the chain.
>   I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let =
me know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying this on RIV.
> =20
>   Thanks
> /guy
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
> To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was =
Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
> =20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> =20
> This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in =
the related threat.
> =20
> My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant =
characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that =
are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v or such.
> =20
> Endorsement
> System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or =
maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in =
titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys =
become inaccessible when debug is enabled.
> =20
> Development process =E2=80=94 Is there a special security-oriented =
team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? =
Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?
> =20
> Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the factories secured in a special way? Is =
the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses =
HSMs).
> =20
> Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a long time to achieve and will =
usually require some of the above.
> =20
> My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into =
devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is =
often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because no =
key more secure than it, you kind of have to have all that.=20
> =20
> Since these don=E2=80=99t change much over time, the endorsement =
wouldn=E2=80=99t change.  They could even span several models and =
varying HW.
> =20
> Policy, K-G-V, other
> SW Versions =E2=80=94 As long as the SW follows a development process =
like that above, it doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the =
endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, =
the more it is true (and vice versa).
> =20
> Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, =
deployments a particular OEM or such
> =20
> Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the debug status values can vary on a =
day-day basis
> =20
> OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor =
and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary =
widely.
> =20
> None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put =
into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or =
must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.
> =20
> =20
> I think what I=E2=80=99ve described above lines up pretty well for a =
TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are =
almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements and can line up with =
TEE=E2=80=99s. =20
> =20
> The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the =
attester that protect the attestation key because there is generally no =
recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk =
of the HW and SW of the device.
> =20
> =20
> On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device (=E2=80=9Cmicr=
o endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending =
towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product line =
(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. Then it=E2=80=
=99s more like the data sheet for the product. =20
> =20
> Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to fan this out to the different =
key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For =
example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy =
and the individual devices (or groups of devices) would have individual =
keys that chain up. With a micro-endorsement the per-device public key =
could be per endorsement.
> =20
> =20
> The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the =
characterization of how the attestation key is protected.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com =
<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.
>=20
> On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
> wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?
>=20
> Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
> This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
> to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. =
I=E2=80=99m
> fishing for comments here on what it should be like.
>=20
> Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
> key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
> could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
> be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) =
and the
> verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
> certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to =
be
> discussed in the architecture doc.
>=20
> There's a few scenarios:
> - One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
>  each has their own attestation key.
> - - Probably ECDAA fits in here
> - - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
> - Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
>  one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
> - Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
>  endorsements so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation
>=20
> While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
> because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
> is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
> and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
> secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
> snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
> and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?
>=20
> I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
> locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t =
have to
> parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
> material to verify it.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
> applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
> the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
> the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
> verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
> blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
> similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].
>=20
> (Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: =
I
> guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
> treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)
>=20
> For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
> keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
> having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
> possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
> reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.
>=20
> cheers, thanks!
>=20
> [1] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-imple=
mentation-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd=
6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
> [2] =
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-insta=
nce-id =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-=
psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka4=
5lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats__;!=
!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUz=
QTPUAY$>
> =20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">So =
I suspect the router world is really different from the IoT world in a =
way that affects the finding of RIMs.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Seems like the router world is a small =
number of manufacturers, less than ten. Seems like routers are purchased =
and managed by very technically competent staff that already work with =
lots of technical details. It=E2=80=99s not that hard for network admins =
to go to the router manufacturers web site and download a few RIMs and =
configure them into their verifiers.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Seems like the IoT world involves a =
much larger number of manufacturers, hundreds or even thousands. IoT =
management is scattered and works in lots of different ways. Sometimes =
it is the device maker itself. Sometimes it is an enterprise. Sometimes =
it is a third party, maybe with a fourth and fifth party...</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phones have their own =
challenge =E2=80=94 they have huge numbers of relying parties =E2=80=94 =
each app is a relying party.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It seems a URI-based scheme for finding =
RIMs is important for the IoT world, and maybe the phone world, but not =
so much for the router world. Seems like it has to be URI-based because =
that=E2=80=99s the way to identify a resource on the broad =
internet.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It =
looks like the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model=
_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf" class=3D"">TCG RIM document</a>&nbsp;already has =
something like this as mentioned in Appendix C. Not sure it is fully =
developed as it is in an appendix.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"page" =
title=3D"Page 31"><div class=3D"section"><div class=3D"layoutArea"><div =
class=3D"column"><p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11.000000pt; =
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class=3D"">The TCG Platform Certificate Profile =
[10</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11.000000pt; font-family: 'ArialMT'" =
class=3D"">] also defines a PlatformConfigurationURI attribute that =
contains =E2=80=9C</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11.000000pt; =
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class=3D""><u class=3D"">URI where
the reference integrity measurements could be obtained by the =
verifie</u></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11.000000pt; font-family: =
'ArialMT'" class=3D""><u class=3D"">r</u>=E2=80=9D. </span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11.000000pt; font-family: 'ArialMT'" class=3D"">The =
Platform Certificates Platform
Configuration URI MUST hold a reference to the location of the Primary =
RIM Bundle. The URI MAY point to a
location on the Endpoint platform or it MAY reside in a publicly =
accessible location. The Base RIM MUST contain a
LINK element that points to the same URI as the Platform Certificates =
PlatformConfigurationURI.&nbsp;</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Glad to =
see the use of CoSWID. Seems like that will line up for EAT as =
well.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Thanks for your response=E2=80=A6&nbsp; I=E2=80=99ve =
added annotations, marked with<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">[guy]</span>=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" class=3D"">Juniper Business =
Use Only</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:56 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Ned Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID =
and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into =
Results)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Trying again, after re reading your =
question a few times (and a few not-sent replies).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">First you need the endorsement for the =
TPM that is serving as the attester. This endorsement would come from =
the TPM vendor. I assume that is fairly well understood and in practice =
today through TPM architecture and conventions already in place with =
things like IDevID. (Maybe you all know it, but I don=E2=80=99t know how =
this works. I would be interested in references and/or a description of =
it).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">[guy] Yes, I think most =
TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement Key and a certificate =
signed by the TPM manufacturer.&nbsp; Use of that key is controlled to =
prevent unwanted privacy abuses, but it=E2=80=99s there specifically to =
validate the source of the TPM.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, =
151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; For RIV, I=E2=80=99m not sure that needs to be =
done by the end-user of the device=E2=80=A6&nbsp; the OEM who makes the =
=E2=80=98router=E2=80=99 (yes, or switch or firewall or access point) =
should pre-provision a DevID signed by the OEM, and a trustworthy OEM =
wouldn=E2=80=99t sign an IDevID in their facility without verifying that =
the TPM they=E2=80=99ve just soldered down is authentic.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; Some OEMs actually =
customize their TPMs slightly to contain their own signature on the EK, =
rather than the TPM vendor=E2=80=99s, but I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=
=99s common.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; In =
addition to the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on =
verification of the certificate that goes with the TPM Attestation =
key.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve made that as easy as possible in RIV by =
pre-provisioning the IAK along with the IDevID, so the two will contain =
the same identity information, signed by the same vendor.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
For more-generic TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may be =
inappropriate, there=E2=80=99s a well-specified series of steps to =
validate the TPM before remotely installing the ID or attestation =
keys.&nbsp; The TCG spec with the gory details is still in draft, but if =
you have TCG access, it=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9CTPM Keys for Platform =
DevID for TPM2=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come from the =
OS Vendor or from the device vendor or even a third party, none of which =
are the TPM vendor. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS, =
but it is open source and the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, =
so the RIM would probably come from the phone/device vendor. It seems =
possible to have split RIMs where part comes from the the OS vendor and =
part comes from the device vendor.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, =
151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; [guy] Agreed =E2=80=93 the RIM will almost =
certainly not come from the TPM vendor.&nbsp; This seems fundamentally =
like a task for the system administrator, to decide who they trust for =
RIMs.&nbsp; If the OEM or software vendor ships RIMs, that seems like an =
obvious choice, but administrators can decide any way they want.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor =
IDs, product names and product versions are very non-uniform. You =
couldn=E2=80=99t write much generic Verifier code to work with them as =
they are today. The best attempts at making these generic I know of seem =
EAT=E2=80=99s IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA=E2=80=99s EAN-13 based HW =
version, but I don=E2=80=99t think these are enough. Maybe there is =
something else out there. SWID of some sort?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">[guy] TCG has a draft spec =
out for public review covering RIM.&nbsp; 'DRAFT: TCG Reference =
Integrity Manifest Information Model'<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model=
_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" =
class=3D"">https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Mo=
del_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf</span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, =
151);" class=3D"">The doc is completely based on ISO SWID, with the NIST =
guidelines.&nbsp; There=E2=80=99s a CBOR variant called CoSWID at IETF =
(I think you can guess which Henk, out of the universe of all Henks, you =
could ask for details!)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, =
151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; If you have interest in commenting on the TCG =
RIM spec, I know the authors would be glad to hear from you.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; But about identity =
of RIMs=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
The RIM is signed, so once you=E2=80=99ve done the policy task of =
deciding which RIM supplier you like, verifying it is easy.&nbsp; I =
realize of course that there=E2=80=99s little commonality on how to name =
a product or version, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that matters.&nbsp; The =
RIM corresponds to a very specific product and release. &nbsp;The vendor =
can call it whatever they want, as long as they don=E2=80=99t issue two =
release with the same name.&nbsp; After that, I think it=E2=80=99s just =
a string compare.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; I =
suppose if third-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to =
explicitly call out the software manufacturer by name, but that=E2=80=99s =
already part of the SWID &amp; RIM specs.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; As far as we can =
tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to describe any software =
release that can be expressed as files and directories.&nbsp; I have a =
small project on my todo list to prove that for a Juniper release, but =
so far, I don=E2=80=99t see a problem.&nbsp; Again, if you=E2=80=99re =
interested, now is the time for review!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Agreed that the identifier of the RIM =
doesn=E2=80=99t have to be secured / attested, just like key ID=E2=80=99s =
don=E2=80=99t have to be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, the =
verification just fails.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. =
Maybe there=E2=80=99s a solution in common? My first though is some sort =
of URI, maybe related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the =
Evidence sent to the Verifier. It doesn=E2=80=99t have to be mandatory =
or used by everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at least some.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">[guy] Henk might have =
suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.&nbsp; As noted, SWID is =
strongly oriented to software releases with packages, directories and =
files, but maybe there=E2=80=99s something useful there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To be clear, I=E2=80=99m thinking that =
the Endorsement of the TPM Attester is quite separate from the =
Endorsement that is the RIM. They come from completely different =
vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little use to identify the RIM.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">[guy] Yes, in fact I think =
there are at least three suppliers that could be verified; the TPM =
vendor, the hardware platform OEM who made the Attester, and the RIM =
supplier who certifies the software image.&nbsp; Given the way RIV is =
scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is up to the OEM, but =
verification of the OEM=E2=80=99s DevID and IAK is one thing, and =
verification of the authenticity of the RIM is another independent =
operation, both of which &nbsp;belong in a RATS-compatible Verifier.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, 151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; Let me know what =
we=E2=80=99re missing!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(47, 85, =
151);" class=3D"">&nbsp; /guy<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic below =
mainly pertains to EAT, but I=E2=80=99d like to make sure we=E2=80=99re =
not missing something on the RIV side.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems =
like finding the right manifest shouldn=E2=80=99t be that hard=E2=80=A6<o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity =
and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provides =
the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of trust.&nbsp; The =
measurement logs contain the alleged product name and version number for =
the software installed on the box.&nbsp; Use the vendor ID to narrow the =
scope to specific vendor=E2=80=99s product and version space, and find =
the RIM that matches.&nbsp; Then check if the hashes line up; if so, =
you=E2=80=99re good, if not, either the claim of what software is =
present was incorrect, or something got hacked.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Seems like a verifier could follow this same model =
through the entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as =
long as there are no gaps in the chain.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained =
environment, but let me know if you think we=E2=80=99re oversimplifying =
this on RIV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</span></a>; Ned Smith &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID =
and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into =
Results)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
line-height: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 235, 156);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Lato, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">[External Email. Be cautious of =
content]</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is a reply to both =
Thomas and Ned=E2=80=99s message on debug in the related threat.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My inclination is to associate =
endorsements with time-invariant characteristics of the device. At the =
moment this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like the only way to do it, but it =
seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are policy, =
k-g-v or such.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Endorsement</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in =
5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">System architecture =E2=80=94 Does the =
Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a =
simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. Is defense against chip =
invasive attacks considered? Do keys become inaccessible when debug is =
enabled.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Development process =E2=80=94 Is there =
a special security-oriented team? Does the team have a code review =
policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for =
HW and SW development isolated?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Manufacturing =E2=80=94 Are the =
factories secured in a special way? Is the attestation key provisioning =
system hardened in some way (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Certifications =E2=80=94 These take a =
long time to achieve and will usually require some of the above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My thinking for EAT was =
that you only put attestation keys into devices that meet some criteria =
like some of the above. Since there is often no way to recover from a =
compromised attestation key because no key more secure than it, you kind =
of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Since these don=E2=80=99t change much =
over time, the endorsement wouldn=E2=80=99t change. &nbsp;They could =
even span several models and varying HW.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Policy, =
K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">SW Versions =E2=80=94 As =
long as the SW follows a development process like that above, it =
doesn=E2=80=99t have to be included in the endorsement. Of course the =
smaller the SW and the better the process, the more it is true (and vice =
versa).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Blacklists =E2=80=94 These might be =
specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or =
such<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Debug status =E2=80=94 Most of the =
debug status values can vary on a day-day basis<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">OEM model =E2=80=94 If the attestation =
is implemented by a chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, =
then the OEM model will vary widely.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">None of these can be criteria as to =
whether an attestation key is put into a device or not as they are not =
known at manufacturing time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after =
manufacturing.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think what I=E2=80=99ve described =
above lines up pretty well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly =
set by the TCG. HW TPMs are almost always certified. They are =
independent of OEM model. It also lines up reasonably well with secure =
elements and can line up with TEE=E2=80=99s. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The crux of endorsement to me is the =
security characteristics of the attester that protect the attestation =
key because there is generally no recovery from a compromised =
attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and SW of the =
device.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device =
(=E2=80=9Cmicro endorsement"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA =
are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a product =
line&nbsp;(=E2=80=9Cmacro endorsement"?),, say a product line of TPMs. =
Then it=E2=80=99s more like the data sheet for the product.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then there=E2=80=99s different ways to =
fan this out to the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, =
group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endorsement could include =
the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual devices (or groups of =
devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a =
micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per =
endorsement.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The most important thing about the =
endorsement seems to me is the characterization of how the attestation =
key is protected.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Apr 7, =
2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few =
thoughts below.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS =
on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"<br class=3D"">&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">on behalf of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt; =
wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">So how does a Verifier find the applicable =
endorsement for Evidence it<br class=3D"">wishes to verify and know that =
is really the right endorsement?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Seems like =
the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br =
class=3D"">This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the =
origination claim<br class=3D"">to try to solve this, but it is =
half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I=E2=80=99m<br class=3D"">fishing for =
comments here on what it should be like.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the =
public<br class=3D"">key that is used to verify the signature. Without =
that, the Attester<br class=3D"">could lie and pick any old Endorsement =
that it wishes. There needs to<br class=3D"">be some binding between =
items in the endorsement (E0, E1,=E2=80=A6) and the<br =
class=3D"">verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token =
or<br class=3D"">certificate, but doesn=E2=80=99t have to be. Pretty =
sure this needs to be<br class=3D"">discussed in the architecture =
doc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a few scenarios:<br class=3D"">-=
 One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br class=3D"">- - =
Probably ECDAA fits in here<br class=3D"">- - One option here is an X509 =
hierarchy<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or =
other) so there is a<br class=3D"">&nbsp;one-one correlation with the =
Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br class=3D"">- Group keys are used, =
but across devices that have different<br class=3D"">&nbsp;endorsements =
so there=E2=80=99s no one-one correlation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could =
occur,<br class=3D"">because from a lot of real experience the set up of =
attestation keys<br class=3D"">is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly =
affected by manufacturing costs<br class=3D"">and issues on assembly =
lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br class=3D"">secure =
facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br =
class=3D"">snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement =
locator ID<br class=3D"">and key ID are not the same, but they can be in =
some use cases?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am also tempted to =
encourage the placement of the endorsement<br class=3D"">locator ID in =
the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don=E2=80=99t have to<br =
class=3D"">parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the =
key<br class=3D"">material to verify it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thoughts?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">A two =
level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally<br =
class=3D"">applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part =
would get you to<br class=3D"">the shared data (e.g., certification, =
measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br class=3D"">the instance part can be =
used to retrieve device-specific state:<br class=3D"">verification =
key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br =
class=3D"">blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not =
entirely)<br class=3D"">similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] =
[2].<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Context-switching for a second on our =
previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br class=3D"">guess we might model an =
instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br class=3D"">treat EUIDs as =
the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, =
I'd prefer<br class=3D"">keeping model and instance identifiers as =
separate claims rather than<br class=3D"">having an opaque endorsement =
ID claim that clumps together those and<br class=3D"">possibly other =
stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br =
class=3D"">reason I would not override key ID with instance ID =
semantics.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">cheers, thanks!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofeni=
g-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3R=
oy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-implementation-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">[2]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofeni=
g-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIE=
d6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUQhSzg4E$" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html=
#name-instance-id</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
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Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
Thread-Index: AQHWCe9b/q6maJEL0kaGXfcqT+zj8qhtv9mAgABNSQCAAtK/EIAFBFeAgAFKleCAAERiAIAACIQQ
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/Bnjnhw1-hIqg76fALBGd0R6FToE>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)
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Hi Laurence,
  I don't disagree about the complexity of the market space outside the rou=
ter world, although the TCG RIM and ISO SWID are meant to work in more chao=
tic ecosystems, and I think that's reflected in the excerpt below.
  If you see something that you think would help bind the RIM and a product=
 more reliably, I'm sure the TCG editors would want to hear about it.
  Thanks
/guy





Juniper Business Use Only
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 2:44 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKa=
y <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

So I suspect the router world is really different from the IoT world in a w=
ay that affects the finding of RIMs.

Seems like the router world is a small number of manufacturers, less than t=
en. Seems like routers are purchased and managed by very technically compet=
ent staff that already work with lots of technical details. It's not that h=
ard for network admins to go to the router manufacturers web site and downl=
oad a few RIMs and configure them into their verifiers.

Seems like the IoT world involves a much larger number of manufacturers, hu=
ndreds or even thousands. IoT management is scattered and works in lots of =
different ways. Sometimes it is the device maker itself. Sometimes it is an=
 enterprise. Sometimes it is a third party, maybe with a fourth and fifth p=
arty...

Phones have their own challenge - they have huge numbers of relying parties=
 - each app is a relying party.

It seems a URI-based scheme for finding RIMs is important for the IoT world=
, and maybe the phone world, but not so much for the router world. Seems li=
ke it has to be URI-based because that's the way to identify a resource on =
the broad internet.

It looks like the TCG RIM document<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trust=
edcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf__;!=
!NEt6yMaO-gk!SALZ6TaSQ78mNyy8DyIQoZwE5kuKwfbEpslSl3mgCsuvRd2cjADGaW2-xXgu3X=
RIGQ4$> already has something like this as mentioned in Appendix C. Not sur=
e it is fully developed as it is in an appendix.

The TCG Platform Certificate Profile [10] also defines a PlatformConfigurat=
ionURI attribute that contains "URI where the reference integrity measureme=
nts could be obtained by the verifier". The Platform Certificates Platform =
Configuration URI MUST hold a reference to the location of the Primary RIM =
Bundle. The URI MAY point to a location on the Endpoint platform or it MAY =
reside in a publicly accessible location. The Base RIM MUST contain a LINK =
element that points to the same URI as the Platform Certificates PlatformCo=
nfigurationURI.

Glad to see the use of CoSWID. Seems like that will line up for EAT as well=
.

LL


On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfe=
dorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,
  Thanks for your response...  I've added annotations, marked with [guy]...
/guy



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.co=
m>>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com<mai=
lto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)


Trying again, after re reading your question a few times (and a few not-sen=
t replies).

First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is serving as the attester.=
 This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I assume that is fairly w=
ell understood and in practice today through TPM architecture and conventio=
ns already in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all know it, but I =
don't know how this works. I would be interested in references and/or a des=
cription of it).
[guy] Yes, I think most TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement Key an=
d a certificate signed by the TPM manufacturer.  Use of that key is control=
led to prevent unwanted privacy abuses, but it's there specifically to vali=
date the source of the TPM.
  For RIV, I'm not sure that needs to be done by the end-user of the device=
...  the OEM who makes the 'router' (yes, or switch or firewall or access p=
oint) should pre-provision a DevID signed by the OEM, and a trustworthy OEM=
 wouldn't sign an IDevID in their facility without verifying that the TPM t=
hey've just soldered down is authentic.
  Some OEMs actually customize their TPMs slightly to contain their own sig=
nature on the EK, rather than the TPM vendor's, but I don't think that's co=
mmon.
  In addition to the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on verifica=
tion of the certificate that goes with the TPM Attestation key.  We've made=
 that as easy as possible in RIV by pre-provisioning the IAK along with the=
 IDevID, so the two will contain the same identity information, signed by t=
he same vendor.
  For more-generic TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may be in=
appropriate, there's a well-specified series of steps to validate the TPM b=
efore remotely installing the ID or attestation keys.  The TCG spec with th=
e gory details is still in draft, but if you have TCG access, it's called "=
TPM Keys for Platform DevID for TPM2".

Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come from the OS Vendor or fr=
om the device vendor or even a third party, none of which are the TPM vendo=
r. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS, but it is open source=
 and the phone (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM would probably=
 come from the phone/device vendor. It seems possible to have split RIMs wh=
ere part comes from the the OS vendor and part comes from the device vendor=
.
  [guy] Agreed - the RIM will almost certainly not come from the TPM vendor=
.  This seems fundamentally like a task for the system administrator, to de=
cide who they trust for RIMs.  If the OEM or software vendor ships RIMs, th=
at seems like an obvious choice, but administrators can decide any way they=
 want.

Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product names and product versio=
ns are very non-uniform. You couldn't write much generic Verifier code to w=
ork with them as they are today. The best attempts at making these generic =
I know of seem EAT's IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA's EAN-13 based HW version, b=
ut I don't think these are enough. Maybe there is something else out there.=
 SWID of some sort?
[guy] TCG has a draft spec out for public review covering RIM.  'DRAFT: TCG=
 Reference Integrity Manifest Information Model'
    https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r=
13_2feb20.pdf<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/trustedcomputinggroup.org/=
wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SALZ6TaS=
Q78mNyy8DyIQoZwE5kuKwfbEpslSl3mgCsuvRd2cjADGaW2-xXgu3XRIGQ4$>
The doc is completely based on ISO SWID, with the NIST guidelines.  There's=
 a CBOR variant called CoSWID at IETF (I think you can guess which Henk, ou=
t of the universe of all Henks, you could ask for details!)
  If you have interest in commenting on the TCG RIM spec, I know the author=
s would be glad to hear from you.
  But about identity of RIMs...
  The RIM is signed, so once you've done the policy task of deciding which =
RIM supplier you like, verifying it is easy.  I realize of course that ther=
e's little commonality on how to name a product or version, but I'm not sur=
e that matters.  The RIM corresponds to a very specific product and release=
.  The vendor can call it whatever they want, as long as they don't issue t=
wo release with the same name.  After that, I think it's just a string comp=
are.
  I suppose if third-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to explici=
tly call out the software manufacturer by name, but that's already part of =
the SWID & RIM specs.
  As far as we can tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to describe a=
ny software release that can be expressed as files and directories.  I have=
 a small project on my todo list to prove that for a Juniper release, but s=
o far, I don't see a problem.  Again, if you're interested, now is the time=
 for review!


Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn't have to be secured / attested=
, just like key ID's don't have to be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, =
the verification just fails.

This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT space. Maybe there's a so=
lution in common? My first though is some sort of URI, maybe related to SWI=
D, that is part of the measurements in the Evidence sent to the Verifier. I=
t doesn't have to be mandatory or used by everyone, but it seems likely to =
benefit at least some.
[guy] Henk might have suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.  As no=
ted, SWID is strongly oriented to software releases with packages, director=
ies and files, but maybe there's something useful there.

To be clear, I'm thinking that the Endorsement of the TPM Attester is quite=
 separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM. They come from completely d=
ifferent vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of little use to identify the RIM.
[guy] Yes, in fact I think there are at least three suppliers that could be=
 verified; the TPM vendor, the hardware platform OEM who made the Attester,=
 and the RIM supplier who certifies the software image.  Given the way RIV =
is scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is up to the OEM, but ver=
ification of the OEM's DevID and IAK is one thing, and verification of the =
authenticity of the RIM is another independent operation, both of which  be=
long in a RATS-compatible Verifier.
  Let me know what we're missing!
  /guy

LL




On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfed=
orkow@juniper.net>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,
  I understand that the discussion on the topic below mainly pertains to EA=
T, but I'd like to make sure we're not missing something on the RIV side.
  For OS software image integrity using a TPM, it seems like finding the ri=
ght manifest shouldn't be that hard...
  The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned identity and attestation keys =
as outlined in the RIV draft.  That provides the Verifier with the vendor i=
dentity for the root of trust.  The measurement logs contain the alleged pr=
oduct name and version number for the software installed on the box.  Use t=
he vendor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor's product and version s=
pace, and find the RIM that matches.  Then check if the hashes line up; if =
so, you're good, if not, either the claim of what software is present was i=
ncorrect, or something got hacked.
  Seems like a verifier could follow this same model through the entire cha=
in of trust, even through multiple vendors, as long as there are no gaps in=
 the chain.
  I know EAT needs to work in a less-constrained environment, but let me kn=
ow if you think we're oversimplifying this on RIV.

  Thanks
/guy



Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 3:13 PM
To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com<mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com<mai=
lto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing End=
orsements and Evidence into Results)

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned's message on debug in the related th=
reat.

My inclination is to associate endorsements with time-invariant characteris=
tics of the device. At the moment this doesn't seem like the only way to do=
 it, but it seems like a good way. Things that are not time invariant are p=
olicy, k-g-v or such.

Endorsement
System architecture - Does the Attester use a TEE or a TPM or maybe it is s=
imple system with just a simple CPU, but it is encased in titanium. Is defe=
nse against chip invasive attacks considered? Do keys become inaccessible w=
hen debug is enabled.

Development process - Is there a special security-oriented team? Does the t=
eam have a code review policy? Is there a bug bounty? Are the desktops and =
IT systems used for HW and SW development isolated?

Manufacturing - Are the factories secured in a special way? Is the attestat=
ion key provisioning system hardened in some way (e.g., uses HSMs).

Certifications - These take a long time to achieve and will usually require=
 some of the above.

My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestation keys into devices tha=
t meet some criteria like some of the above. Since there is often no way to=
 recover from a compromised attestation key because no key more secure than=
 it, you kind of have to have all that.

Since these don't change much over time, the endorsement wouldn't change.  =
They could even span several models and varying HW.

Policy, K-G-V, other
SW Versions - As long as the SW follows a development process like that abo=
ve, it doesn't have to be included in the endorsement. Of course the smalle=
r the SW and the better the process, the more it is true (and vice versa).

Blacklists - These might be specific to UEIDs, versions of SW, deployments =
a particular OEM or such

Debug status - Most of the debug status values can vary on a day-day basis

OEM model - If the attestation is implemented by a chip vendor and the endo=
rsement is for the chip, then the OEM model will vary widely.

None of these can be criteria as to whether an attestation key is put into =
a device or not as they are not known at manufacturing time and/or must be =
allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.


I think what I've described above lines up pretty well for a TPM. The syste=
m architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TPMs are almost always certifie=
d. They are independent of OEM model. It also lines up reasonably well with=
 secure elements and can line up with TEE's.

The crux of endorsement to me is the security characteristics of the attest=
er that protect the attestation key because there is generally no recovery =
from a compromised attestation key. It sets the baseline risk of the HW and=
 SW of the device.


On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every device ("micro endorseme=
nt"?), which is what I think Thomas and ARM PSA are tending towards. The ot=
her extreme is one endorsement for a product line ("macro endorsement"?),, =
say a product line of TPMs. Then it's more like the data sheet for the prod=
uct.

Then there's different ways to fan this out to the different key / signing =
schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.509). For example a macro-endo=
rsement could include the root of an X.509 hierarchy and the individual dev=
ices (or groups of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With =
a micro-endorsement the per-device public key could be per endorsement.


The most important thing about the endorsement seems to me is the character=
ization of how the attestation key is protected.

LL



On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com<mailto:T=
homas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:

Hi Laurence,

Thanks for bringing this up.  A few thoughts below.

On 03/04/2020, 20:37, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
<rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lgl@islan=
d-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorsement for Evidence it
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?

Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I'm
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.

Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,...) and the
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or
certificate, but doesn't have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be
discussed in the architecture doc.

There's a few scenarios:
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but
 each has their own attestation key.
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a
 one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different
 endorsements so there's no one-one correlation

While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like
snowflakes, each one is different.  So maybe endorsement locator ID
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?

I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don't have to
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key
material to verify it.

Thoughts?

A two level lookup key, model+instance, seems to be quite generally
applicable as an endorsement locator.  The model part would get you to
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is
blacklisted.  In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].

(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)

For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion.  For the same
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.

cheers, thanks!

[1] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-im=
plementation-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-ts=
chofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-implementation-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ=
8gyO3Roy-dIEd6S_ka45lFEGm1GIH2lt_D1NafmaQWpjjsOx629zhu-LmUi1MMMWs$>
[2] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-05.html#name-in=
stance-id<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/id/draft-tschofen=
ig-rats-psa-token-05.html*name-instance-id__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!RQ8gyO3Roy-dIE=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I don&#8217;t disagree about the complexity o=
f the market space outside the router world, although the TCG RIM and ISO S=
WID are meant to work in more chaotic ecosystems, and I think that&#8217;s =
reflected in the excerpt below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; If you see something that you think would hel=
p bind the RIM and a product more reliably, I&#8217;m sure the TCG editors =
would want to hear about it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resor=
t.com&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 13, 2020 2:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Ned Smith &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Jessica Fi=
tzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Process=
ing Endorsements and Evidence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So I suspect the router world is really different fr=
om the IoT world in a way that affects the finding of RIMs.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Seems like the router world is a small number of man=
ufacturers, less than ten. Seems like routers are purchased and managed by =
very technically competent staff that already work with lots of technical d=
etails. It&#8217;s not that hard for network
 admins to go to the router manufacturers web site and download a few RIMs =
and configure them into their verifiers.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Seems like the IoT world involves a much larger numb=
er of manufacturers, hundreds or even thousands. IoT management is scattere=
d and works in lots of different ways. Sometimes it is the device maker its=
elf. Sometimes it is an enterprise.
 Sometimes it is a third party, maybe with a fourth and fifth party...<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phones have their own challenge &#8212; they have hu=
ge numbers of relying parties &#8212; each app is a relying party.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It seems a URI-based scheme for finding RIMs is impo=
rtant for the IoT world, and maybe the phone world, but not so much for the=
 router world. Seems like it has to be URI-based because that&#8217;s the w=
ay to identify a resource on the broad internet.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It looks like the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.com/v3/__https:/trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model=
_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SALZ6TaSQ78mNyy8DyIQoZwE5kuKwfbEpslSl3mg=
CsuvRd2cjADGaW2-xXgu3XRIGQ4$">TCG RIM document</a>&nbsp;already
 has something like this as mentioned in Appendix C. Not sure it is fully d=
eveloped as it is in an appendix.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;ArialMT&quot;,serif">The TCG Plat=
form Certificate Profile [10] also defines a PlatformConfigurationURI attri=
bute that contains &#8220;<u>URI where the reference integrity
 measurements could be obtained by the verifier</u>&#8221;. The Platform Ce=
rtificates Platform Configuration URI MUST hold a reference to the location=
 of the Primary RIM Bundle. The URI MAY point to a location on the Endpoint=
 platform or it MAY reside in a publicly
 accessible location. The Base RIM MUST contain a LINK element that points =
to the same URI as the Platform Certificates PlatformConfigurationURI.&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Glad to see the use of CoSWID. Seems like that will =
line up for EAT as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 13, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks for your response&#8230;&nbsp; I&#8217=
;ve added annotations, marked with<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy]</span>&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:7.0pt">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a>&gt;<span clas=
s=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, Apri=
l 12, 2020 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Guy Fedorkow &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net"><span style=3D"color:purple">gf=
edorkow@juniper.net</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">rats@ietf.org</span></a>; N=
ed Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">ned.smith@intel.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats=
] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evid=
ence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Trying again, after re reading your question a few t=
imes (and a few not-sent replies).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First you need the endorsement for the TPM that is s=
erving as the attester. This endorsement would come from the TPM vendor. I =
assume that is fairly well understood and in practice today through TPM arc=
hitecture and conventions already
 in place with things like IDevID. (Maybe you all know it, but I don&#8217;=
t know how this works. I would be interested in references and/or a descrip=
tion of it).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Yes, I think mos=
t TPMs ship with a pre-provisioned Endorsement Key and a certificate signed=
 by the TPM manufacturer.&nbsp; Use of that key is controlled to prevent un=
wanted privacy abuses, but it&#8217;s there specifically
 to validate the source of the TPM.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; For RIV, I&#821=
7;m not sure that needs to be done by the end-user of the device&#8230;&nbs=
p; the OEM who makes the &#8216;router&#8217; (yes, or switch or firewall o=
r access point) should pre-provision a DevID signed by the OEM, and a
 trustworthy OEM wouldn&#8217;t sign an IDevID in their facility without ve=
rifying that the TPM they&#8217;ve just soldered down is authentic.</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; Some OEMs actua=
lly customize their TPMs slightly to contain their own signature on the EK,=
 rather than the TPM vendor&#8217;s, but I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s c=
ommon.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; In addition to =
the identity of the device itself, RIV depends on verification of the certi=
ficate that goes with the TPM Attestation key.&nbsp; We&#8217;ve made that =
as easy as possible in RIV by pre-provisioning the IAK
 along with the IDevID, so the two will contain the same identity informati=
on, signed by the same vendor.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; For more-generi=
c TPM applications where a pre-provisioned DevID may be inappropriate, ther=
e&#8217;s a well-specified series of steps to validate the TPM before remot=
ely installing the ID or attestation keys.&nbsp; The
 TCG spec with the gory details is still in draft, but if you have TCG acce=
ss, it&#8217;s called &#8220;TPM Keys for Platform DevID for TPM2&#8221;.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Next you need to identify the RIM. That might come f=
rom the OS Vendor or from the device vendor or even a third party, none of =
which are the TPM vendor. For example, with Android, Google produces the OS=
, but it is open source and the phone
 (the device) vendor can modify it, so the RIM would probably come from the=
 phone/device vendor. It seems possible to have split RIMs where part comes=
 from the the OS vendor and part comes from the device vendor.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; [guy] Agreed &#=
8211; the RIM will almost certainly not come from the TPM vendor.&nbsp; Thi=
s seems fundamentally like a task for the system administrator, to decide w=
ho they trust for RIMs.&nbsp; If the OEM or software vendor
 ships RIMs, that seems like an obvious choice, but administrators can deci=
de any way they want.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Seems like OS/device/3rd-party Vendor IDs, product n=
ames and product versions are very non-uniform. You couldn&#8217;t write mu=
ch generic Verifier code to work with them as they are today. The best atte=
mpts at making these generic I know of seem
 EAT&#8217;s IEEE-based OEMID, and PSA&#8217;s EAN-13 based HW version, but=
 I don&#8217;t think these are enough. Maybe there is something else out th=
ere. SWID of some sort?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] TCG has a draft =
spec out for public review covering RIM.&nbsp; 'DRAFT: TCG Reference Integr=
ity Manifest Information Model'</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<spa=
n class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.com/v3/__https:/trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Mode=
l_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SALZ6TaSQ78mNyy8DyIQoZwE5kuKwfbEpslSl3m=
gCsuvRd2cjADGaW2-xXgu3XRIGQ4$"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">https://truste=
dcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_RIM_Model_v1-r13_2feb20.pdf</spa=
n></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">The doc is completely =
based on ISO SWID, with the NIST guidelines.&nbsp; There&#8217;s a CBOR var=
iant called CoSWID at IETF (I think you can guess which Henk, out of the un=
iverse of all Henks, you could ask for details!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; If you have int=
erest in commenting on the TCG RIM spec, I know the authors would be glad t=
o hear from you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; But about ident=
ity of RIMs&#8230;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; The RIM is sign=
ed, so once you&#8217;ve done the policy task of deciding which RIM supplie=
r you like, verifying it is easy.&nbsp; I realize of course that there&#821=
7;s little commonality on how to name a product or version,
 but I&#8217;m not sure that matters.&nbsp; The RIM corresponds to a very s=
pecific product and release. &nbsp;The vendor can call it whatever they wan=
t, as long as they don&#8217;t issue two release with the same name.&nbsp; =
After that, I think it&#8217;s just a string compare.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; I suppose if th=
ird-party RIM suppliers exist, then the RIM has to explicitly call out the =
software manufacturer by name, but that&#8217;s already part of the SWID &a=
mp; RIM specs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; As far as we ca=
n tell, SWID embodies sufficient flexibility to describe any software relea=
se that can be expressed as files and directories.&nbsp; I have a small pro=
ject on my todo list to prove that for a Juniper
 release, but so far, I don&#8217;t see a problem.&nbsp; Again, if you&#821=
7;re interested, now is the time for review!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed that the identifier of the RIM doesn&#8217;t =
have to be secured / attested, just like key ID&#8217;s don&#8217;t have to=
 be. If the Verifier gets the wrong one, the verification just fails.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is certainly not a solved problem in the EAT sp=
ace. Maybe there&#8217;s a solution in common? My first though is some sort=
 of URI, maybe related to SWID, that is part of the measurements in the Evi=
dence sent to the Verifier. It doesn&#8217;t have
 to be mandatory or used by everyone, but it seems likely to benefit at lea=
st some.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Henk might have =
suggestion for potential commonality with EAT.&nbsp; As noted, SWID is stro=
ngly oriented to software releases with packages, directories and files, bu=
t maybe there&#8217;s something useful there.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To be clear, I&#8217;m thinking that the Endorsement=
 of the TPM Attester is quite separate from the Endorsement that is the RIM=
. They come from completely different vendors. The TPM Endorsement is of li=
ttle use to identify the RIM.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">[guy] Yes, in fact I t=
hink there are at least three suppliers that could be verified; the TPM ven=
dor, the hardware platform OEM who made the Attester, and the RIM supplier =
who certifies the software image.&nbsp; Given
 the way RIV is scoped, I think verification of the TPM itself is up to the=
 OEM, but verification of the OEM&#8217;s DevID and IAK is one thing, and v=
erification of the authenticity of the RIM is another independent operation=
, both of which &nbsp;belong in a RATS-compatible
 Verifier.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; Let me know wha=
t we&#8217;re missing!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#2F5597">&nbsp; /guy</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 9, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net"><span style=3D"color:purple">gfedorkow@ju=
niper.net</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I understand that the discussion on the topic=
 below mainly pertains to EAT, but I&#8217;d like to make sure we&#8217;re =
not missing something on the RIV side.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; For OS software image integrity using a TPM, =
it seems like finding the right manifest shouldn&#8217;t be that hard&#8230=
;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The Attester needs to have pre-provisioned id=
entity and attestation keys as outlined in the RIV draft.&nbsp; That provid=
es the Verifier with the vendor identity for the root of trust.&nbsp; The m=
easurement logs contain the alleged product name
 and version number for the software installed on the box.&nbsp; Use the ve=
ndor ID to narrow the scope to specific vendor&#8217;s product and version =
space, and find the RIM that matches.&nbsp; Then check if the hashes line u=
p; if so, you&#8217;re good, if not, either the claim
 of what software is present was incorrect, or something got hacked.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Seems like a verifier could follow this same =
model through the entire chain of trust, even through multiple vendors, as =
long as there are no gaps in the chain.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I know EAT needs to work in a less-constraine=
d environment, but let me know if you think we&#8217;re oversimplifying thi=
s on RIV.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:7.0pt">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span class=3D"apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence
 Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Apr=
il 7, 2020 3:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Fossati=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">rats@ietf.org</span></a>; N=
ed Smith &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">ned.smith@intel.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats=
] Endorsement ID and verification key (was Processing Endorsements and Evid=
ence into Results)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a reply to both Thomas and Ned&#8217;s messa=
ge on debug in the related threat.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My inclination is to associate endorsements with tim=
e-invariant characteristics of the device. At the moment this doesn&#8217;t=
 seem like the only way to do it, but it seems like a good way. Things that=
 are not time invariant are policy, k-g-v
 or such.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Endorsement</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">System architecture &#8212; Does the Attester use a =
TEE or a TPM or maybe it is simple system with just a simple CPU, but it is=
 encased in titanium. Is defense against chip invasive attacks considered? =
Do keys become inaccessible when debug is
 enabled.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Development process &#8212; Is there a special secur=
ity-oriented team? Does the team have a code review policy? Is there a bug =
bounty? Are the desktops and IT systems used for HW and SW development isol=
ated?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manufacturing &#8212; Are the factories secured in a=
 special way? Is the attestation key provisioning system hardened in some w=
ay (e.g., uses HSMs).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Certifications &#8212; These take a long time to ach=
ieve and will usually require some of the above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My thinking for EAT was that you only put attestatio=
n keys into devices that meet some criteria like some of the above. Since t=
here is often no way to recover from a compromised attestation key because =
no key more secure than it, you kind
 of have to have all that.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since these don&#8217;t change much over time, the e=
ndorsement wouldn&#8217;t change. &nbsp;They could even span several models=
 and varying HW.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u>Policy, K-G-V, other</u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SW Versions &#8212; As long as the SW follows a deve=
lopment process like that above, it doesn&#8217;t have to be included in th=
e endorsement. Of course the smaller the SW and the better the process, the=
 more it is true (and vice versa).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Blacklists &#8212; These might be specific to UEIDs,=
 versions of SW, deployments a particular OEM or such<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Debug status &#8212; Most of the debug status values=
 can vary on a day-day basis<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OEM model &#8212; If the attestation is implemented =
by a chip vendor and the endorsement is for the chip, then the OEM model wi=
ll vary widely.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of these can be criteria as to whether an attes=
tation key is put into a device or not as they are not known at manufacturi=
ng time and/or must be allowed to vary widely after manufacturing.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think what I&#8217;ve described above lines up pre=
tty well for a TPM. The system architecture is mostly set by the TCG. HW TP=
Ms are almost always certified. They are independent of OEM model. It also =
lines up reasonably well with secure elements
 and can line up with TEE&#8217;s. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The crux of endorsement to me is the security charac=
teristics of the attester that protect the attestation key because there is=
 generally no recovery from a compromised attestation key. It sets the base=
line risk of the HW and SW of the
 device.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On one extreme is a separate endorsement for every d=
evice (&#8220;micro endorsement&quot;?), which is what I think Thomas and A=
RM PSA are tending towards. The other extreme is one endorsement for a prod=
uct line&nbsp;(&#8220;macro endorsement&quot;?),, say a product
 line of TPMs. Then it&#8217;s more like the data sheet for the product.&nb=
sp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then there&#8217;s different ways to fan this out to=
 the different key / signing schemes (per-device key, group key, ECDAA, X.5=
09). For example a macro-endorsement could include the root of an X.509 hie=
rarchy and the individual devices (or groups
 of devices) would have individual keys that chain up. With a micro-endorse=
ment the per-device public key could be per endorsement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The most important thing about the endorsement seems=
 to me is the characterization of how the attestation key is protected.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 7, 2020, at 7:36 AM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">Thomas.Fo=
ssati@arm.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Laurence,<br>
<br>
Thanks for bringing this up. &nbsp;A few thoughts below.<br>
<br>
On 03/04/2020, 20:37, &quot;RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade&quot;<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">rats-bou=
nces@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;=
,sans-serif">on
 behalf of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=
=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">lgl@island-resort.com</spa=
n></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans=
-serif">&gt;
 wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">So how does a Verifier find the applicable endorse=
ment for Evidence it<br>
wishes to verify and know that is really the right endorsement?<br>
<br>
Seems like the Evidence needs some sort of an endorsement locator ID.<br>
This could be a URL or a GUID. EAT currently has the origination claim<br>
to try to solve this, but it is half-baked. It needs to get fixed. I&#8217;=
m<br>
fishing for comments here on what it should be like.<br>
<br>
Pretty sure the Endorsement needs to include or reference the public<br>
key that is used to verify the signature. Without that, the Attester<br>
could lie and pick any old Endorsement that it wishes. There needs to<br>
be some binding between items in the endorsement (E0, E1,&#8230;) and the<b=
r>
verification key. That could be in the form of a signed token or<br>
certificate, but doesn&#8217;t have to be. Pretty sure this needs to be<br>
discussed in the architecture doc.<br>
<br>
There's a few scenarios:<br>
- One endorsement applies to lots of devices in the same class, but<br>
&nbsp;each has their own attestation key.<br>
- - Probably ECDAA fits in here<br>
- - One option here is an X509 hierarchy<br>
- Group keys are used (for privacy reasons or other) so there is a<br>
&nbsp;one-one correlation with the Endorsements (the GEID discussion)<br>
- Group keys are used, but across devices that have different<br>
&nbsp;endorsements so there&#8217;s no one-one correlation<br>
<br>
While the last one seems odd and unlikely, I think it could occur,<br>
because from a lot of real experience the set up of attestation keys<br>
is very idiosyncratic. It is wildly affected by manufacturing costs<br>
and issues on assembly lines, sub contractor structure, location of<br>
secure facilities and approaches to making money on it. They are like<br>
snowflakes, each one is different. &nbsp;So maybe endorsement locator ID<br=
>
and key ID are not the same, but they can be in some use cases?<br>
<br>
I am also tempted to encourage the placement of the endorsement<br>
locator ID in the COSE or JOSE header parameters so you don&#8217;t have to=
<br>
parse the unverified body of claims to be able to find the key<br>
material to verify it.<br>
<br>
Thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
A two level lookup key, model&#43;instance, seems to be quite generally<br>
applicable as an endorsement locator. &nbsp;The model part would get you to=
<br>
the shared data (e.g., certification, measured boot KGVs, etc.), while<br>
the instance part can be used to retrieve device-specific state:<br>
verification key(s) as well as other metadata, e.g., if some gear is<br>
blacklisted. &nbsp;In PSA we have something quite (though not entirely)<br>
similar with implementation and instance IDs [1] [2].<br>
<br>
(Context-switching for a second on our previous UEID/GEID discussion: I<br>
guess we might model an instance as an anonymity set, and therefore<br>
treat EUIDs as the special case GEIDs with cardinality =3D=3D 1?)<br>
<br>
For the sake of building a shared and reusable vocabulary, I'd prefer<br>
keeping model and instance identifiers as separate claims rather than<br>
having an opaque endorsement ID claim that clumps together those and<br>
possibly other stuff in a use-case specific fashion. &nbsp;For the same<br>
reason I would not override key ID with instance ID semantics.<br>
<br>
cheers, thanks!<br>
<br>
[1]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a href=3D"htt=
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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Jim proposed that the EAT-defined claims would be put in their own EAT =
sub-area of CWT
- They would have a separate IANA registry that could have separate =
rules, particularly adding the guidelines from this PR =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7>  (which are just =
guidelines).
- Would occur in CWT=E2=80=99s in a special map defined to hold them.
- Separate label space

The main advantages of this is that EAT could have separate IANA =
registration rules. There=E2=80=99s also a slight size advantage in that =
the one-byte labels could be re used.

I don=E2=80=99t think this advantage is out weighed by these =
disadvantages.

Confusion =E2=80=94 Both EAT-oriented use cases and CWT-oriented use =
cases would likely use claims from both the CWT and EAT registries. Many =
many claims are going to be generically useful.

More Confusion =E2=80=94 It is not particularly obvious to distant =
implementors and users why these two levels exist and what the rules are =
for using them.

Confusion Propagates =E2=80=94 Future use cases, say endorsements, will =
inherit this split level because they will want to use claims from both =
registries.

IANA cross checking required =E2=80=94 We would want experts to make =
sure that a claim wasn=E2=80=99t defined in both places

Replicate for JWT =E2=80=94 We=E2=80=99d have to do the same subsetting =
in JWT with a new EAT JWT registry.

More registries is not better =E2=80=94 Doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
operationally efficient to add two more registries really similar to =
ones we already have. Also, it is weird if very similar registries have =
significantly different rules.

Loophole =E2=80=94 If someone doesn=E2=80=99t like the EAT rules, =
they=E2=80=99ll just register a claim under the CWT rules. There=E2=80=99s=
 no way to prevent that.

Decode complexity =E2=80=94 It will make CWT and EAT decoder a little =
more complex. It will also make encode more complex, but not of any =
significance.


The path of least resistance here is to just put the claims =
characteristics into the EAT document as a suggestion / recommendation. =
There would be no formal imposition of these guidelines. They were never =
meant as more than guidelines anyway.

Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally changes =
and adjusts CWT.

Another option is to publish a separate update of CWT.

My plan is to proceed with the path of least resistance, putting them in =
EAT as guidelines, unless there is support for more formal work on CWT.

LL=

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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Jim =
proposed that the EAT-defined claims would be put in their own EAT =
sub-area of CWT</div><div class=3D"">- They would have a separate IANA =
registry that could have separate rules, particularly adding&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" class=3D"">the =
guidelines from this PR</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;(which are just =
guidelines).</div><div class=3D"">- Would occur in CWT=E2=80=99s in a =
special map defined to hold them.</div><div class=3D"">- Separate label =
space</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The main advantages of this is that EAT could have separate =
IANA registration rules. There=E2=80=99s also a slight size advantage in =
that the one-byte labels could be re used.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think this advantage is =
out weighed by these disadvantages.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Confusion&nbsp;=E2=
=80=94 </b>Both EAT-oriented use cases and CWT-oriented use cases would =
likely use claims from both the CWT and EAT registries. Many many claims =
are going to be generically useful.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">More Confusion</b> =E2=80=94=
 It is not particularly obvious to distant implementors and users why =
these two levels exist and what the rules are for using them.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Confusion =
Propagates</b> =E2=80=94 Future use cases, say endorsements, will =
inherit this split level because they will want to use claims from both =
registries.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">IANA cross checking required</b> =E2=80=94 We would want =
experts to make sure that a claim wasn=E2=80=99t defined in both =
places</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Replicate for JWT</b> =E2=80=94 We=E2=80=99d have to do the =
same subsetting in JWT with a new EAT JWT registry.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">More =
registries is not better</b> =E2=80=94 Doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
operationally efficient to add two more registries really similar to =
ones we already have. Also, it is weird if very similar registries have =
significantly different rules.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Loophole&nbsp;</b>=E2=80=94 If someone doesn=E2=80=99t like =
the EAT rules, they=E2=80=99ll just register a claim under the CWT =
rules. There=E2=80=99s no way to prevent that.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Decode =
complexity</b> =E2=80=94 It will make CWT and EAT decoder a little more =
complex. It will also make encode more complex, but not of any =
significance.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The path of least =
resistance here is to just put the claims characteristics into the EAT =
document as a suggestion / recommendation. There would be no formal =
imposition of these guidelines. They were never meant as more than =
guidelines anyway.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally =
changes and adjusts CWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Another option is to publish a separate update of =
CWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My plan =
is to proceed with the path of least resistance, putting them in EAT as =
guidelines, unless there is support for more formal work on =
CWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:16:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 231261: Claims characteristics are now just guidance for d...
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  Branch: refs/heads/claim-characteristics
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 231261edbcfd6497597077b3f8aecfd0731d0238
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/231261edbcfd6497597077b3f8aecfd0731d0238
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-04-14 (Tue, 14 Apr 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Claims characteristics are now just guidance for designing EAT claims



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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:46:52 -0700
From: Laurence Lundblade <noreply@github.com>
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 88d98b: no longer an update to RFC 8329
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  Branch: refs/heads/claim-characteristics
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 88d98b499d224acaf914e2ff0e1e1c5fc0f0f96d
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/88d98b499d224acaf914e2ff0e1e1c5fc0f0f96d
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-04-14 (Tue, 14 Apr 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  no longer an update to RFC 8329



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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:48:52 -0700
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 154fc4: minor reword related to nonce
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  Branch: refs/heads/claim-characteristics
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 154fc43061f483856483aec7e202a5d01e134f05
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/154fc43061f483856483aec7e202a5d01e134f05
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2019-07-15 (Mon, 15 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  minor reword related to nonce


  Commit: 817d0352aec99452488fa7779d8dad48dd57c317
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/817d0352aec99452488fa7779d8dad48dd57c317
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2019-07-16 (Tue, 16 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Minor formatting fixes


  Commit: bdbefa9f71e2d5664c16dbe37a36ceae4b65f140
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bdbefa9f71e2d5664c16dbe37a36ceae4b65f140
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2019-07-16 (Tue, 16 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  more minor formatting fixes


  Commit: 68e19a58470fb223313cf5a9910a8337514a114e
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/68e19a58470fb223313cf5a9910a8337514a114e
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2019-07-22 (Mon, 22 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Minor typo fixes and clarifications


  Commit: d56804b8c62d2c04abf88d2e88d34ef57083460c
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/d56804b8c62d2c04abf88d2e88d34ef57083460c
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2019-07-22 (Mon, 22 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  minor typo fix


  Commit: 86e559b35f518baa61cc4aecd04d0f86d46eb1c5
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/86e559b35f518baa61cc4aecd04d0f86d46eb1c5
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-07-23 (Tue, 23 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    R Makefile
    R README.md
    R circle.yml
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  preparation for CircleCI


  Commit: 3449f68b667050f7ce97bddbdc16159546da5ed0
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/3449f68b667050f7ce97bddbdc16159546da5ed0
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-07-23 (Tue, 23 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Cleanup for CircleCI


  Commit: a9441fe5336bd4dfaca27e5253ffbe3c9c3b8a0d
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/a9441fe5336bd4dfaca27e5253ffbe3c9c3b8a0d
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-07-23 (Tue, 23 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  changed -01 to latest


  Commit: 9e83fde1de68b7c16feb6a38834f80610806f862
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/9e83fde1de68b7c16feb6a38834f80610806f862
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-07-23 (Tue, 23 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge branch 'master' of github.com:ietf-rats-wg/eat


  Commit: cdaecbcdae3a61dcc39aa9601ac72ad8a6203965
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/cdaecbcdae3a61dcc39aa9601ac72ad8a6203965
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-07-23 (Tue, 23 Jul 2019)

  Changed paths:
    A .circleci/config.yml
    A .gitignore
    A .travis.yml
    A CONTRIBUTING.md
    A LICENSE.md
    A Makefile
    A README.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Setup repository for draft-ietf-rats-eat using https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template


  Commit: 8c9a3eaa2273979da0e247c58a04d093d2780016
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/8c9a3eaa2273979da0e247c58a04d093d2780016
  Author: gmandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2019-08-12 (Mon, 12 Aug 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Security Considerations

First cut


  Commit: ac2550f0b67320e260df88287dac651ac94549d7
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/ac2550f0b67320e260df88287dac651ac94549d7
  Author: Paul Crowley <github@paul.ciphergoth.org>
  Date:   2019-09-09 (Mon, 09 Sep 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Fix capitalization typo


  Commit: faab2c4351ce31e3d3f7b6b94a0f06c9e5d1cfb9
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/faab2c4351ce31e3d3f7b6b94a0f06c9e5d1cfb9
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2019-10-01 (Tue, 01 Oct 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge pull request #29 from ciphergoth/patch-1

Fix capitalization typo


  Commit: f47a8b49b49763f5cd6887e48bb22bc521175471
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/f47a8b49b49763f5cd6887e48bb22bc521175471
  Author: gmandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2019-10-16 (Wed, 16 Oct 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md


  Commit: c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  revamp of submods and nested tokens


  Commit: 5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Revert "revamp of submods and nested tokens". It should be a PR, not a direct commit.

This reverts commit c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941.


  Commit: 2a051f45f07398de86a5731ff124c20a52ce1e09
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2a051f45f07398de86a5731ff124c20a52ce1e09
  Author: gmandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2019-11-14 (Thu, 14 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>


  Commit: b1be67930ffd4c74f75d7e72ee0508e09126753e
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b1be67930ffd4c74f75d7e72ee0508e09126753e
  Author: gmandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2019-11-17 (Sun, 17 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md


  Commit: bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  first attempt at fixing the CirclCI issues (and apparently xml2rfc) that creates an Error: Expected <date> attribute "year" to be an integer, but found "n.d."


  Commit: a69331d7248345bde8fad2de93e4ce39c753be85
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/a69331d7248345bde8fad2de93e4ce39c753be85
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2019-12-05 (Thu, 05 Dec 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  OEMID clarifications and references (#41)

* OEMID clarifications and references

* Typographic errors in OEM ID section

* Fix dates in references that seem to be causing build failures


  Commit: efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text (#42)

* Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text

* Remove confusing comment about nonce transport security

* Add size range for nonce and correct the CDDL


  Commit: e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Add changes since -01 section


  Commit: 7d9a8de9cf276d7a71b4eaa8bf254f3757966fcf
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/7d9a8de9cf276d7a71b4eaa8bf254f3757966fcf
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2020-02-07 (Fri, 07 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  UEID update: add references; 128 bits now, up to 256 bits later

* Up UEID to 256 bits and add design rationale appendix

* More thorough justification for 256-bit UEID

* Correct spelling of BlueTooth

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>

* Grammar

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>

* Grammar

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>

* Spelling

Co-Authored-By: setrofim <setrofim@gmail.com>

* Grammar

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>

* fixed date issues for registries in yaml header

* 128 bit UEIDs allowed, 256 optional; improve analysis in appendix

* Correctly refer to oemid claim rather than OUI

* EUI-48... are rolled in to EUI; add reference for IMEI

* add references for EUIs

Co-authored-by: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>
Co-authored-by: setrofim <setrofim@gmail.com>
Co-authored-by: Henk Birkholz <henkbirkholz@users.noreply.github.com>


  Commit: 2c14b48b2b43df2f23f1c6c0a0540f4ee1db8331
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/2c14b48b2b43df2f23f1c6c0a0540f4ee1db8331
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2020-02-13 (Thu, 13 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  revamp of submods and nested tokens (#43)

* the nested eat claims is folded in with submods

* specifies no inheritance

* fix date for birthday attack reference to address build error

* correction to say submod security level is less than or equal to rather than less than


  Commit: 136d631593e21078c3d1010f1866ce837f7ed189
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/136d631593e21078c3d1010f1866ce837f7ed189
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2020-02-13 (Thu, 13 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  add differences from -02 draft


  Commit: a648f41f4040e94847d2f6669bb0045e4331d53a
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/a648f41f4040e94847d2f6669bb0045e4331d53a
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Lots of CDDL fixes (#52)

* Lots of fixes to the CDDL

* update changes since -02 draft

* Correct labels so the are integers and other minor

* fix tiny typo

Thanks, Henk


  Commit: b899254440826cea379eb1a5115ad08d1ed69898
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b899254440826cea379eb1a5115ad08d1ed69898
  Author: Giri Mandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge branch 'master' into br1


  Commit: cf76bd58c185a98a8a9d1637b9030e17f1054a92
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/cf76bd58c185a98a8a9d1637b9030e17f1054a92
  Author: Giri Mandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge pull request #28 from gmandyam/br1

Security Considerations


  Commit: 402099d886100f0181b2c9cbf51de39d2cda3afb
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/402099d886100f0181b2c9cbf51de39d2cda3afb
  Author: Giri Mandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md


  Commit: 181c5fc09e5e71dc80c1108828fe2cfc4dfaec60
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/181c5fc09e5e71dc80c1108828fe2cfc4dfaec60
  Author: Giri Mandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2020-02-19 (Wed, 19 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md


  Commit: 82dc3b0b98ccf5ae46378d85ab7481e275440159
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/82dc3b0b98ccf5ae46378d85ab7481e275440159
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
  Date:   2020-02-20 (Thu, 20 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Array of nonces; fix example; text reformatting


  Commit: 22462da89d970fbb3b5922402263381ea5052692
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/22462da89d970fbb3b5922402263381ea5052692
  Author: Giri Mandyam <mandyam@quicinc.com>
  Date:   2020-02-20 (Thu, 20 Feb 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Update draft-ietf-rats-eat.md


  Commit: 0bc0f9149f544855ba400989efdd9b4961257ef8
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/0bc0f9149f544855ba400989efdd9b4961257ef8
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  boot_state split into secure-boot and debug-disable claims; debug is an enum, not Booleans

* Revamp debug disable so it is levels, not Booleans

* Clarify description of disabled state

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>

* Fix CDDL for boot and debug state

* Rework to clarify inheritance and relations between submodules and superior modules

* Add the Not Reported debug level and indicate that is the default when the claim is absent

* absence of any claim means not reported; remove Not Reported debug state

* grammar fix

* split boot-state claim into debug disable and secure boot claims

Co-authored-by: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>
Co-authored-by: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>


  Commit: fd566501ef6d4de679b8feee7415eacc0e209bcb
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/fd566501ef6d4de679b8feee7415eacc0e209bcb
  Author: Patrick Uiterwijk <patrick@puiterwijk.org>
  Date:   2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Fix sentences describing Major type 2 and other types (#56)


  Commit: aac5de214068993208b41066f1717222abde6114
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/aac5de214068993208b41066f1717222abde6114
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-03-19 (Thu, 19 Mar 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Fix minor errors in claim naming and examples


  Commit: be9adcfd6389a409503729ea7d2c9e3e9a7a470b
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/be9adcfd6389a409503729ea7d2c9e3e9a7a470b
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-04-14 (Tue, 14 Apr 2020)

  Changed paths:
    A .circleci/config.yml
    A .gitignore
    A .travis.yml
    A CONTRIBUTING.md
    A LICENSE.md
    M Makefile
    M README.md
    R circle.yml
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Merge branch 'master' into claim-characteristics


Compare: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/compare/88d98b499d22...be9adcfd6389


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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 4f9f833528e11c8130d6fbb06329218c068e7355
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/4f9f833528e11c8130d6fbb06329218c068e7355
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
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  Script updating gh-pages from be9adcf. [ci skip]



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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I=E2=80=99ve update this PR <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7> =
so it is just guidance for creating EAT claims (with suggestion that CWT =
can use them too) and that EAT is not an update to the CWT RFC. Also, =
some improved word smithing. I would like to merge it.

To answer Ned=E2=80=99s question, the example in the EAT doc would look =
like this, if we followed Jim=E2=80=99s proposal

{
   / nonce /                  9:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   / time stamp (iat) /       6:1526542894,
   / EAT sub-area /          10:
   {
       / UEID /                  =
1:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
       / secure-boot /           2:true,
       / debug-disbale /         3:3,  / permanent-disable  /
    }
}
  =20
Claim with key / label 10 would be registered in the CWT registry and it =
would be defined as a map that contains all the EAT claims. Note that I =
have re used claim key / label 1, 2 and 3 above because it is a new EAT =
space separate from CWT.

LL


> On Apr 13, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> One more point is that if someone adds an EAT claim now, and later =
it=E2=80=99s found to need the same thing for a non-attestation use =
case,
> then you=E2=80=99d end up with an entry in both registries, or else =
misusing a value out of an EAT registry for a non-EAT use case.
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
> To: rats@ietf.org
> Subject: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
> =20
> Jim proposed that the EAT-defined claims would be put in their own EAT =
sub-area of CWT
> - They would have a separate IANA registry that could have separate =
rules, particularly adding the guidelines from this PR =
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithu=
b.com%2Fietf-rats-wg%2Feat%2Fpull%2F7&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft=
.com%7C226eceb82d4a4670f69208d7dfe89c2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
%7C1%7C0%7C637224062455319806&sdata=3DFbk5bNxTgE03LqWJ9KwI9w828UfLVhpO5jOR=
YAN7Swk%3D&reserved=3D0>  (which are just guidelines).
> - Would occur in CWT=E2=80=99s in a special map defined to hold them.
> - Separate label space
> =20
> The main advantages of this is that EAT could have separate IANA =
registration rules. There=E2=80=99s also a slight size advantage in that =
the one-byte labels could be re used.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think this advantage is out weighed by these =
disadvantages.
> =20
> Confusion =E2=80=94 Both EAT-oriented use cases and CWT-oriented use =
cases would likely use claims from both the CWT and EAT registries. Many =
many claims are going to be generically useful.
> =20
> More Confusion =E2=80=94 It is not particularly obvious to distant =
implementors and users why these two levels exist and what the rules are =
for using them.
> =20
> Confusion Propagates =E2=80=94 Future use cases, say endorsements, =
will inherit this split level because they will want to use claims from =
both registries.
> =20
> IANA cross checking required =E2=80=94 We would want experts to make =
sure that a claim wasn=E2=80=99t defined in both places
> =20
> Replicate for JWT =E2=80=94 We=E2=80=99d have to do the same =
subsetting in JWT with a new EAT JWT registry.
> =20
> More registries is not better =E2=80=94 Doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
operationally efficient to add two more registries really similar to =
ones we already have. Also, it is weird if very similar registries have =
significantly different rules.
> =20
> Loophole =E2=80=94 If someone doesn=E2=80=99t like the EAT rules, =
they=E2=80=99ll just register a claim under the CWT rules. There=E2=80=99s=
 no way to prevent that.
> =20
> Decode complexity =E2=80=94 It will make CWT and EAT decoder a little =
more complex. It will also make encode more complex, but not of any =
significance.
> =20
> =20
> The path of least resistance here is to just put the claims =
characteristics into the EAT document as a suggestion / recommendation. =
There would be no formal imposition of these guidelines. They were never =
meant as more than guidelines anyway.
> =20
> Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally changes =
and adjusts CWT.
> =20
> Another option is to publish a separate update of CWT.
> =20
> My plan is to proceed with the path of least resistance, putting them =
in EAT as guidelines, unless there is support for more formal work on =
CWT.
> =20
> LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve update&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" class=3D"">this =
PR</a>&nbsp;so it is just guidance for creating EAT claims (with =
suggestion that CWT can use them too) and that EAT is not an update to =
the CWT RFC. Also, some improved word smithing. I would like to merge =
it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To answer =
Ned=E2=80=99s question, the example in the EAT doc would look like this, =
if we followed Jim=E2=80=99s proposal</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier =
New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">{</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;/ nonce / &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;9:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',</font></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;/ time stamp (iat) / &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; 6:1526542894,</span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:=
 14px; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;/ =
EAT sub-area / &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;10:</span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;{</span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;/ UEID / &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;1:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;/ secure-boot / &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2:true,</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;/ debug-disbale / &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3:3, &nbsp;/ =
permanent-disable &nbsp;/</font></div></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
}</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">}</font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;</font></div><div class=3D"">Claim with key / label 10 would be =
registered in the CWT registry and it would be defined as a map that =
contains all the EAT claims. Note that I have re used claim key / label =
1, 2 and 3 above because it is a new EAT space separate from =
CWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><br=
 class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 13, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">One more point is that =
if someone adds an EAT claim now, and later it=E2=80=99s found to need =
the same thing for a non-attestation use case,<br class=3D"">then =
you=E2=80=99d end up with an entry in both registries, or else misusing =
a value out of an EAT registry for a non-EAT use case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Rats] Claims =
Characteristics in EAT or in CWT<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Jim proposed that the =
EAT-defined claims would be put in their own EAT sub-area of CWT<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">- They would have a separate IANA registry that could =
have separate rules, particularly adding&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fgithub.com%2Fietf-rats-wg%2Feat%2Fpull%2F7&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%=
40microsoft.com%7C226eceb82d4a4670f69208d7dfe89c2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2=
d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637224062455319806&amp;sdata=3DFbk5bNxTgE03LqWJ9KwI9=
w828UfLVhpO5jORYAN7Swk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">the guidelines from this =
PR</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;(which are just guidelines).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">- Would occur in CWT=E2=80=99s in a special map =
defined to hold them.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">- Separate =
label space<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">The main advantages of =
this is that EAT could have separate IANA registration rules. There=E2=80=99=
s also a slight size advantage in that the one-byte labels could be re =
used.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think this advantage is =
out weighed by these disadvantages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: =
30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Confusion&nbsp;=E2=80=94<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Both EAT-oriented use =
cases and CWT-oriented use cases would likely use claims from both the =
CWT and EAT registries. Many many claims are going to be generically =
useful.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">More Confusion</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 It is not =
particularly obvious to distant implementors and users why these two =
levels exist and what the rules are for using them.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Confusion Propagates</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 Future use cases, =
say endorsements, will inherit this split level because they will want =
to use claims from both registries.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">IANA cross checking =
required</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 =
We would want experts to make sure that a claim wasn=E2=80=99t defined =
in both places<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Replicate for JWT</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 We=E2=80=99d have =
to do the same subsetting in JWT with a new EAT JWT registry.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">More registries is not better</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 Doesn=E2=80=99t =
seem operationally efficient to add two more registries really similar =
to ones we already have. Also, it is weird if very similar registries =
have significantly different rules.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Loophole&nbsp;</b>=E2=80=94 If someone doesn=E2=80=99t like =
the EAT rules, they=E2=80=99ll just register a claim under the CWT =
rules. There=E2=80=99s no way to prevent that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Decode complexity</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 It will make CWT =
and EAT decoder a little more complex. It will also make encode more =
complex, but not of any significance.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">The path of least resistance here is to =
just put the claims characteristics into the EAT document as a =
suggestion / recommendation. There would be no formal imposition of =
these guidelines. They were never meant as more than guidelines =
anyway.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Another option is to make EAT an update =
of CWT so it formally changes and adjusts CWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Another =
option is to publish a separate update of CWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">My plan is =
to proceed with the path of least resistance, putting them in EAT as =
guidelines, unless there is support for more formal work on CWT.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">LL</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_4798EA5E-881D-41B5-89DE-BAD71EBA5967--


From nobody Wed Apr 15 13:44:35 2020
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
cc: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > I don=E2=80=99t think this advantage is out weighed by these disadvan=
tages.

    > Confusion =E2=80=94 Both EAT-oriented use cases and CWT-oriented use =
cases
    > would likely use claims from both the CWT and EAT registries. Many ma=
ny
    > claims are going to be generically useful.

I don't quite see the problem.
First, I don't think that they will, once security considerations are taken
into account, that this will happen as often as you think.

*IF* they are generically useful, and the CWT rules work, then register the
claim there.

    > More Confusion =E2=80=94 It is not particularly obvious to distant im=
plementors
    > and users why these two levels exist and what the rules are for using
    > them.

I agree: if people are unable to read the RFC, then they won't know.
This happens in all sorts of place.

I don't agree that it's a problem.
I think you are making this much bigger an issue than it is.

    > The path of least resistance here is to just put the claims
    > characteristics into the EAT document as a suggestion /
    > recommendation. There would be no formal imposition of these
    > guidelines. They were never meant as more than guidelines anyway.

I don't really know what "guidelines" means.
Does this mean that you aren't going to register any claims?

    > Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally changes=
 and adjusts CWT.
    > Another option is to publish a separate update of CWT.

I think that we've heard from COSE WG about this, and the suggestion is rea=
sonable.

    > My plan is to proceed with the path of least resistance, putting them
    > in EAT as guidelines, unless there is support for more formal work on
    > CWT.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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From nobody Sat Apr 18 20:02:19 2020
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:02:11 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 04:44:29PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
> 
>     > The path of least resistance here is to just put the claims
>     > characteristics into the EAT document as a suggestion /
>     > recommendation. There would be no formal imposition of these
>     > guidelines. They were never meant as more than guidelines anyway.
> 
> I don't really know what "guidelines" means.
> Does this mean that you aren't going to register any claims?
> 
>     > Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally changes and adjusts CWT.
>     > Another option is to publish a separate update of CWT.
> 
> I think that we've heard from COSE WG about this, and the suggestion is reasonable.

Sorry for having (presumably) missed the previous discussion, but what is
the proposal that would require EAT to update CWT (vs. just allocating
codepoints)?

-Ben


From nobody Mon Apr 20 09:04:34 2020
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Subject: [Rats] IPR Disclosure Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-rats-architecture
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Dear Henk Birkholz, Dave Thaler, Michael Richardson, Ned Smith, Wei Pan:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Remote
Attestation Procedures Architecture" (draft-ietf-rats-architecture) was
submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2020-04-20 and has been posted on the
"IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4106/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-rats-architecture"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat



From nobody Mon Apr 20 11:40:31 2020
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Claims Characteristics in EAT or in CWT
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> On Apr 18, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 04:44:29PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>=20
>> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> The path of least resistance here is to just put the claims
>>> characteristics into the EAT document as a suggestion /
>>> recommendation. There would be no formal imposition of these
>>> guidelines. They were never meant as more than guidelines anyway.
>>=20
>> I don't really know what "guidelines" means.
>> Does this mean that you aren't going to register any claims?
>>=20
>>> Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT so it formally =
changes and adjusts CWT.
>>> Another option is to publish a separate update of CWT.
>>=20
>> I think that we've heard from COSE WG about this, and the suggestion =
is reasonable.
>=20
> Sorry for having (presumably) missed the previous discussion, but what =
is
> the proposal that would require EAT to update CWT (vs. just allocating
> codepoints)?

The thought is these claims characteristics =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7> are just as applicable to =
claims registered for CWT as they are to EAT. The update would be to add =
them as guidance (not requirements) for the CWT registry. Perhaps during =
expert review, the expert, based on the claims characteristics, would =
ask things like =E2=80=9Cdid you consider adapting the already-standard =
XXX format to CWT?=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ccan you generalize this claim so =
it is not just for Linux systems?"

It=E2=80=99s clear that many claims defined in the registry will be =
useful both for EAT and CWT. So far the iat, exp and cti claims defined =
in CWT are used in EAT. I expect cnf claim to also be common. Going the =
other way, I expect the nonce and location claims defined in EAT to be =
useful in CWT.=20

I think having hard separation between EAT-use-case claims and =
CWT-use-case claims is not a good thing. It will lead to the confusion I =
previously mentioned and I can=E2=80=99t see where there is that much =
benefit.

So, since the claims are in common and share a registry, the claims =
characteristics should be in common.

Since there seems to be little appetite among CWT folks for an update =
that makes these part of CWT, I=E2=80=99m current proposing this as soft =
guidance in the EAT draft, but I=E2=80=99m also OK just dropping them =
entirely.

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Apr 18, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 04:44:29PM -0400, Michael Richardson =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"=
 class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The path of least =
resistance here is to just put the claims<br class=3D"">characteristics =
into the EAT document as a suggestion /<br class=3D"">recommendation. =
There would be no formal imposition of these<br class=3D"">guidelines. =
They were never meant as more than guidelines anyway.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I don't really know what =
"guidelines" means.<br class=3D"">Does this mean that you aren't going =
to register any claims?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Another option is to make EAT an update of CWT =
so it formally changes and adjusts CWT.<br class=3D"">Another option is =
to publish a separate update of CWT.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">I think that we've heard from COSE WG about this, and the =
suggestion is reasonable.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Sorry =
for having (presumably) missed the previous discussion, but what is<br =
class=3D"">the proposal that would require EAT to update CWT (vs. just =
allocating<br class=3D"">codepoints)?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
thought is&nbsp;these&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" class=3D"">claims =
characteristics</a>&nbsp;are just as applicable to claims registered for =
CWT as they are to EAT. The update would be to add them as guidance (not =
requirements) for the CWT registry. Perhaps during expert review, the =
expert, based on the claims characteristics, would ask things like =
=E2=80=9Cdid you consider adapting the already-standard XXX format to =
CWT?=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ccan you generalize this claim so it is not =
just for Linux systems?"</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s =
clear that many claims defined in the registry will be useful both for =
EAT and CWT. So far the iat, exp and cti claims defined in CWT are used =
in EAT. I expect cnf claim to also be common. Going the other way, I =
expect the nonce and location claims defined in EAT to be useful in =
CWT.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think having hard =
separation between EAT-use-case claims and CWT-use-case claims is not a =
good thing. It will lead to the confusion I previously mentioned and I =
can=E2=80=99t see where there is that much benefit.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So, since the claims are in common and share a =
registry, the claims characteristics should be in common.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Since there seems to be little appetite among CWT =
folks for an update that makes these part of CWT, I=E2=80=99m current =
proposing this as soft guidance in the EAT draft, but I=E2=80=99m also =
OK just dropping them entirely.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] b4e93a: Disallow floating-point dates
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  Branch: refs/heads/no-float
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: b4e93a6884d70775e676ec7e93de2b2167102b1b
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b4e93a6884d70775e676ec7e93de2b2167102b1b
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@securitytheory.com>
  Date:   2020-04-20 (Mon, 20 Apr 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Disallow floating-point dates



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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
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  Date:   2020-04-20 (Mon, 20 Apr 2020)

  Changed paths:
    M index.html
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  Log Message:
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  Script updating gh-pages from b4e93a6. [ci skip]



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Subject: [Rats] Disallowing floating-point dates in EAT
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Here=E2=80=99s a PR <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/61> that =
disallows floating-point dates in EAT.  64-bit integer epoch dates give =
you a range of +/- 500 billion years so there=E2=80=99s no need for =
floating-point for range. Also, there=E2=80=99s no need for fractional =
seconds in EAT.

If floating-point dates are allowed, then technically speaking, =
Verifiers must support floating-point for interoperability.

CWT still allows floating-point.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/61" =
class=3D"">PR</a>&nbsp;that disallows floating-point dates in EAT. =
&nbsp;64-bit integer epoch dates give you a range of +/- 500 billion =
years so there=E2=80=99s no need for floating-point for range. Also, =
there=E2=80=99s no need for fractional seconds in EAT.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">If floating-point dates =
are allowed, then technically speaking, Verifiers must support =
floating-point for interoperability.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">CWT still allows =
floating-point.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:00:52 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Disallowing floating-point dates in EAT
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+1

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:53 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

> Here=E2=80=99s a PR <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/61> that di=
sallows
> floating-point dates in EAT.  64-bit integer epoch dates give you a range
> of +/- 500 billion years so there=E2=80=99s no need for floating-point fo=
r range.
> Also, there=E2=80=99s no need for fractional seconds in EAT.
>
> If floating-point dates are allowed, then technically speaking, Verifiers
> must support floating-point for interoperability.
>
> CWT still allows floating-point.
>
> LL
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:53 PM Laurence Lundblade &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Here=E2=80=99s a=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://gi=
thub.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/61" target=3D"_blank">PR</a>=C2=A0that disal=
lows floating-point dates in EAT. =C2=A064-bit integer epoch dates give you=
 a range of +/- 500 billion years so there=E2=80=99s no need for floating-p=
oint for range. Also, there=E2=80=99s no need for fractional seconds in EAT=
.<div><br></div><div><div>If floating-point dates are allowed, then technic=
ally speaking, Verifiers must support floating-point for interoperability.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>CWT still allows floating-point.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>LL</div></div><div><br></div></div>________________________________=
_______________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Any takers out there?
I could consider writing an I-D.
/Anders

On 2020-02-27 18:51, Anders Rundgren wrote:
> Hi List,
> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the idea was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android app indeed supports this as well.
> 
> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do not follow that "recipe".
> 
> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds on publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
> 
> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied to browsers.
> 
> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?
> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
> 
> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
> 
> thanx,
> Anders
> 


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Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>, Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [Cbor] [Ace] RATS Entity Attestation Tokens (EAT) - to be a CWT or not to be a CWT?
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I have created a PR <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/62> =
against the EAT draft for UCCS and UJCS.  I=E2=80=99m not sure this =
really belongs in the EAT draft, but I thought I=E2=80=99d start by =
putting it there.

LL

P.S. If we were do an update to CWT to accommodate this, it would also =
be good to add CDDL describing CWT. That is another thing I=E2=80=99ve =
got in the EAT draft, that probably belongs elsewhere.



> On Mar 6, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Pretty sure UCCS as Carsten describes below works for me provided:
>=20
> - All the rules and requirements from CWT explicilty apply except =
signing/encryption
> - It uses the same registry
> - There is a tag defined for it
> - You get an (untagged) UCCS when you remove all signing and =
encryption layers
>=20
> LL
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 6, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Ned,
>>=20
>> What I was trying to say is that the Unprotected CWT Claims Set =
(UCCS) is not a CWT, but an UCCS.  So I wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token =
(which implies some form of protection to me).  But it is still a useful =
data structure to carry around.
>>=20
>>> On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The earlier thread suggested that a naked token could be given to a =
parser that was programmed correctly and it would 'just work'. But if =
the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must have bounding signature, =
mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser should reject naked tokens =
(tagged as such or not).=20
>>=20
>> A CWT decoder would diagnose an UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D.
>> A CWT/UCCS decoder would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>>> If the naked token is defined and the map has a tag that indicates =
it was formed without secure enveloping then the parser should accept =
it, but the code using the parser needs to find some other way to ensure =
security.=20
>>=20
>> Right.  An UCCS is only a useful assertion if received over a secure =
channel with the right properties to make it a useful assertion.
>>=20
>>> If a parser receives a map with both security enveloping and the =
naked token tag, then it should return both the map and the security =
envelope context and let the code using the parser decide if the =
security context satisfies the security requirement.
>>=20
>> Well, it should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not =
an UCCS either).
>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CBOR mailing list
> CBOR@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
have created a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/62" =
class=3D"">PR</a>&nbsp;against the EAT draft for UCCS and UJCS. =
&nbsp;I=E2=80=99m not sure this really belongs in the EAT draft, but I =
thought I=E2=80=99d start by putting it there.<div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">P.S. If we were do an =
update to CWT to accommodate this, it would also be good to add CDDL =
describing CWT. That is another thing I=E2=80=99ve got in the EAT draft, =
that probably belongs elsewhere.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar =
6, 2020, at 6:27 PM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Pretty=
 sure UCCS as Carsten describes below works for me provided:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- All the rules and requirements from CWT =
explicilty apply except signing/encryption<br class=3D"">- It uses the =
same registry<br class=3D"">- There is a tag defined for it<br =
class=3D"">- You get an (untagged) UCCS when you remove all signing and =
encryption layers<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Mar 6, =
2020, at 12:04 PM, Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" =
class=3D"">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi =
Ned,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What I was trying to say is that the =
Unprotected CWT Claims Set (UCCS) is not a CWT, but an UCCS. &nbsp;So I =
wouldn=E2=80=99t call it a token (which implies some form of protection =
to me). &nbsp;But it is still a useful data structure to carry =
around.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On 2020-03-06, at 20:59, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The earlier thread suggested that a =
naked token could be given to a parser that was programmed correctly and =
it would 'just work'. But if the definition of a CWT/JWT is that it must =
have bounding signature, mac, encryption enveloping, then the parser =
should reject naked tokens (tagged as such or not). <br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">A CWT decoder would diagnose an =
UCCS as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D"">A CWT/UCCS decoder =
would diagnose it as =E2=80=9CUCCS=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If the naked token is =
defined and the map has a tag that indicates it was formed without =
secure enveloping then the parser should accept it, but the code using =
the parser needs to find some other way to ensure security. <br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Right. &nbsp;An UCCS is only a =
useful assertion if received over a secure channel with the right =
properties to make it a useful assertion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If a parser receives a =
map with both security enveloping and the naked token tag, then it =
should return both the map and the security envelope context and let the =
code using the parser decide if the security context satisfies the =
security requirement.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Well, it =
should diagnose this as =E2=80=9Cnot a CWT=E2=80=9D (and not an UCCS =
either).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">CBOR mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:CBOR@ietf.org" class=3D"">CBOR@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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Hi Anders,


> On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi List,
> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the idea =
was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android app =
indeed supports this as well.
>=20
> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, =
since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do =
not follow that "recipe=E2=80=9D.

Are you referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in =
the key store?

>=20
> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not =
match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds on =
publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular =
manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
>=20
> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied to =
browsers.
>=20
> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root =
like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?

I don=E2=80=99t know what https://huawei.com/teeroot  is. I can=E2=80=99t =
get anything from this URL.

I=E2=80=99m guessing you are after an X.509 root certificate, one that =
is used for Android-style attestation. Is that right?

LL


> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly =
good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who =
don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee =
root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply =
hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
>=20
> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
>=20
> thanx,
> Anders
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <49d8907c-7637-3d21-0619-4999565fc50e@gmail.com> <7C65B977-FA56-4118-BA8B-121BD9697F7C@island-resort.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:54:57 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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On 2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Anders,

Hi Laurence,
Thank you for responding!

> 
>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi List,
>> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the idea was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android app indeed supports this as well.
>>
>> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do not follow that "recipe”.
> 
> Are you referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in the key store?

This is indeed one possible usage.
https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation

> 
>>
>> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds on publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
>>
>> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied to browsers.
>>
>> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?
> 
> I don’t know what https://huawei.com/teeroot  is. I can’t get anything from this URL.

That's correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation root which is how I came to this idea :)


> I’m guessing you are after an X.509 root certificate, one that is used for Android-style attestation. Is that right?

Right.  Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual way of dealing with attestation verification?

Anders

> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
>>
>> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
>>
>> thanx,
>> Anders
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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--Apple-Mail=_E91E2AC4-758D-4BD0-A22C-C738E3C6F2BF
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Hi Anders,

I think using an X.509 hierarchy with EAT is a fine thing to do, but no =
one=E2=80=99s done it yet. The two EAT implementations I know of, use =
other means to find the verification key. One by key ID, another by a =
combination of claims inside the attestation.

Android=E2=80=99s solution is not standard, it is just used by Android =
AFAIK.

I think it would be fine to write a draft that says how to use X.509 =
with EAT. It would involve =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06 and maybe the URL =
you=E2=80=99ve suggested for finding the root. Would even be interested =
in adding this functionality to ctoken =
<https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken>.=20

Technically speaking, this is all about endorsements and relates to =
recent email threads on that subject here.

LL


> On Apr 22, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Anders,
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
> Thank you for responding!
>=20
>>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi List,
>>> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the =
idea was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android =
app indeed supports this as well.
>>>=20
>>> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, =
since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do =
not follow that "recipe=E2=80=9D.
>> Are you referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in =
the key store?
>=20
> This is indeed one possible usage.
> =
https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
>=20
>>>=20
>>> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not =
match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds on =
publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular =
manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
>>>=20
>>> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied =
to browsers.
>>>=20
>>> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root =
like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?
>> I don=E2=80=99t know what https://huawei.com/teeroot  is. I can=E2=80=99=
t get anything from this URL.
>=20
> That's correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation =
root which is how I came to this idea :)
>=20
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m guessing you are after an X.509 root certificate, one =
that is used for Android-style attestation. Is that right?
>=20
> Right.  Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual way of dealing =
with attestation verification?
>=20
> Anders
>=20
>> LL
>>> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly =
good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who =
don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee =
root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply =
hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
>>>=20
>>> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
>>>=20
>>> thanx,
>>> Anders
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Anders,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
using an X.509 hierarchy with EAT is a fine thing to do, but no one=E2=80=99=
s done it yet. The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to =
find the verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of =
claims inside the attestation.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Android=E2=80=99s solution is not =
standard, it is just used by Android AFAIK.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think it would be fine to write a =
draft that says how to use X.509 with EAT. It would involve&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06</a> and =
maybe the URL you=E2=80=99ve suggested for finding the root. Would even =
be interested in adding this functionality to&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken" =
class=3D"">ctoken</a>.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Technically speaking, this is all about =
endorsements and relates to recent email threads on that subject =
here.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 22, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Anders,<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D"">Thank you for responding!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi List,<br class=3D"">In the <a =
href=3D"https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet" =
class=3D"">https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet</a> project =
the idea was to use attestations. &nbsp;The most recent version of the =
Android app indeed supports this as well.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
an ideal world the root would be provided by Google. &nbsp;However, =
since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do =
not follow that "recipe=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""></blockquote>Are you =
referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in the key =
store?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is indeed one =
possible usage.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attes=
tation" =
class=3D"">https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-at=
testation</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">For W3C's =
PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not match =
attestations but is better than nothing. &nbsp;This scheme builds on =
publishing a manifest associated with the app. &nbsp;Here is my =
particular manifest: &nbsp;https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">But I still would like to use attestations and =
also not being tied to browsers.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What about =
making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root like =
https://huawei.com/teeroot ?<br class=3D""></blockquote>I don=E2=80=99t =
know what https://huawei.com/teeroot &nbsp;is. I can=E2=80=99t get =
anything from this URL.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's =
correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation root which =
is how I came to this idea :)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m guessing you =
are after an X.509 root certificate, one that is used for Android-style =
attestation. Is that right?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Right. &nbsp;Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual =
way of dealing with attestation verification?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Anders<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Since =
the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly good =
shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who don't =
have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee root =
certificates. &nbsp;That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply =
hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If there is a better method, I'm all ears!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">thanx,<br class=3D"">Anders<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <49d8907c-7637-3d21-0619-4999565fc50e@gmail.com> <7C65B977-FA56-4118-BA8B-121BD9697F7C@island-resort.com> <d67985a1-97da-3e23-81e6-1b58b61e1d1a@gmail.com> <FE63538E-389A-4F07-B8DB-6B875D27C3D0@island-resort.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:31:57 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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On 2020-04-23 21:20, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Anders,
> 
Hi Laurence;

> I think using an X.509 hierarchy with EAT is a fine thing to do, but no one’s done it yet. 

I see it more like a workaround in the absence of a standard.  Using CWTs is a better solution.


The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to find the verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of claims inside the attestation.

Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public key, right? How do you locate it expressed in practical terms?  This is the only thing the "Web PKI + Vendor URL" proposal was meant to addresses.  For those who have doubts about automated retrieval of trust anchors based on vendor-specific host names, the scheme can also aid manual installation of such.

The proposal is neutral with respect to key hierarchy.  A flat or multi-level (as in Android) scheme would be dealt with in the same way.

Anders

> 
> Android’s solution is not standard, it is just used by Android AFAIK.
> 
> I think it would be fine to write a draft that says how to use X.509 with EAT. It would involve https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06 and maybe the URL you’ve suggested for finding the root. Would even be interested in adding this functionality to ctoken <https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken>.
> 
> Technically speaking, this is all about endorsements and relates to recent email threads on that subject here.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> Hi Anders,
>>
>> Hi Laurence,
>> Thank you for responding!
>>
>>>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi List,
>>>> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the idea was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android app indeed supports this as well.
>>>>
>>>> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do not follow that "recipe”.
>>> Are you referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in the key store?
>>
>> This is indeed one possible usage.
>> https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
>>
>>>>
>>>> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds on publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
>>>>
>>>> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied to browsers.
>>>>
>>>> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?
>>> I don’t know what https://huawei.com/teeroot  is. I can’t get anything from this URL.
>>
>> That's correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation root which is how I came to this idea :)
>>
>>
>>> I’m guessing you are after an X.509 root certificate, one that is used for Android-style attestation. Is that right?
>>
>> Right.  Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual way of dealing with attestation verification?
>>
>> Anders
>>
>>> LL
>>>> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
>>>>
>>>> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
>>>>
>>>> thanx,
>>>> Anders
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>>
> 


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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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--Apple-Mail=_0CEB94BE-1E98-4165-8292-D50F8E348234
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	charset=utf-8

Hiya

> On 24 Apr 2020, at 05:31, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to find the =
verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of claims =
inside the attestation.
>=20
> Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public key, right? =
How do you locate it expressed in practical terms? =20

Yeah, =E2=80=9Ccombination of claims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D?  =
Isn=E2=80=99t that a self-assertion?

Eliot


--Apple-Mail=_0CEB94BE-1E98-4165-8292-D50F8E348234
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hiya<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 24 Apr 2020, at 05:31, =
Anders Rundgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to =
find the verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of =
claims inside the attestation.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public =
key, right? How do you locate it expressed in practical terms? =
&nbsp;</span></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>Yeah, =
=E2=80=9Ccombination of claims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D? =
&nbsp;Isn=E2=80=99t that a self-assertion?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Eliot</div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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> On Apr 23, 2020, at 8:31 PM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 2020-04-23 21:20, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Anders,
> Hi Laurence;
>=20
>> I think using an X.509 hierarchy with EAT is a fine thing to do, but =
no one=E2=80=99s done it yet.=20
>=20
> I see it more like a workaround in the absence of a standard.  Using =
CWTs is a better solution.

Android uses X.509 both for the attestation token and to chain up from a =
root to a verification key. Agreed that the X.509 for the attestation =
token is not preferred as a standard. I wasn=E2=80=99t suggesting that. =
I was suggesting that X.509 is used WITH CWT/EAT to chain up from a root =
to a verification key per =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06>. I think I=E2=80=99m=
 agreeing with you.

>=20
>=20
>> The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to find the =
verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of claims =
inside the attestation.
>>=20
> Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public key, right? =
How do you locate it expressed in practical terms?  This is the only =
thing the "Web PKI + Vendor URL" proposal was meant to addresses.  For =
those who have doubts about automated retrieval of trust anchors based =
on vendor-specific host names, the scheme can also aid manual =
installation of such.
>=20
> The proposal is neutral with respect to key hierarchy.  A flat or =
multi-level (as in Android) scheme would be dealt with in the same way.

Yes, I generally I agree with you on all this.

Though I think there are other ways than an X.509 root certificate and a =
URL for it to find a verification key.=20

I think we should have an IETF RATS draft that says how to use X.509 =
roots and hierarchies plus a URI with EAT/CWT.

LL



>=20
> Anders
>=20
>> Android=E2=80=99s solution is not standard, it is just used by =
Android AFAIK.
>> I think it would be fine to write a draft that says how to use X.509 =
with EAT. It would involve =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06> and maybe the URL =
you=E2=80=99ve suggested for finding the root. Would even be interested =
in adding this functionality to ctoken =
<https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken =
<https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken>>.
>> Technically speaking, this is all about endorsements and relates to =
recent email threads on that subject here.
>> LL
>>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 7:54 AM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> =
<mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com =
<mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>> Hi Anders,
>>>=20
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>> Thank you for responding!
>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> =
<mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com =
<mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi List,
>>>>> In the https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet project the =
idea was to use attestations.  The most recent version of the Android =
app indeed supports this as well.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In an ideal world the root would be provided by Google.  However, =
since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do =
not follow that "recipe=E2=80=9D.
>>>> Are you referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented =
in the key store?
>>>=20
>>> This is indeed one possible usage.
>>> =
https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> For W3C's PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do =
not match attestations but is better than nothing.  This scheme builds =
on publishing a manifest associated with the app.  Here is my particular =
manifest:  https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But I still would like to use attestations and also not being tied =
to browsers.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> What about making attestations optionally contain a URL to the =
root like https://huawei.com/teeroot ?
>>>> I don=E2=80=99t know what https://huawei.com/teeroot  is. I can=E2=80=
=99t get anything from this URL.
>>>=20
>>> That's correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation =
root which is how I came to this idea :)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m guessing you are after an X.509 root certificate, one =
that is used for Android-style attestation. Is that right?
>>>=20
>>> Right.  Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual way of dealing =
with attestation verification?
>>>=20
>>> Anders
>>>=20
>>>> LL
>>>>> Since the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a =
fairly good shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those =
who don't have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee =
root certificates.  That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply =
hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If there is a better method, I'm all ears!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> thanx,
>>>>> Anders
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>=20
>>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

--Apple-Mail=_152CBEA5-6194-4702-99CE-555727D8FF42
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 23, 2020, at 8:31 PM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On 2020-04-23 21:20, Laurence =
Lundblade wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Hi Anders,<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence;</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I think using an X.509 hierarchy with =
EAT is a fine thing to do, but no one=E2=80=99s done it yet.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">I see it more like a workaround in the absence of a standard. =
&nbsp;Using CWTs is a better solution.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Android uses X.509 both for the attestation token =
and to chain up from a root to a verification key. Agreed that the X.509 =
for the attestation token is not preferred as a standard. I wasn=E2=80=99t=
 suggesting that. I was suggesting that X.509 is used WITH CWT/EAT to =
chain up from a root to a verification key per&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06</a>. I =
think I=E2=80=99m agreeing with you.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The two EAT implementations I =
know of, use other means to find the verification key. One by key ID, =
another by a combination of claims inside the attestation.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public =
key, right? How do you locate it expressed in practical terms? =
&nbsp;This is the only thing the "Web PKI + Vendor URL" proposal was =
meant to addresses. &nbsp;For those who have doubts about automated =
retrieval of trust anchors based on vendor-specific host names, the =
scheme can also aid manual installation of such.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The proposal is neutral with =
respect to key hierarchy. &nbsp;A flat or multi-level (as in Android) =
scheme would be dealt with in the same way.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Yes, I =
generally I agree with you on all this.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Though I think there are other ways than an X.509 =
root certificate and a URL for it to find a verification =
key.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think we should have an =
IETF RATS draft that says how to use X.509 roots and hierarchies plus a =
URI with EAT/CWT.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Anders</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Android=E2=80=99s solution is not =
standard, it is just used by Android AFAIK.<br class=3D"">I think it =
would be fine to write a draft that says how to use X.509 with EAT. It =
would involve<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and maybe the URL you=E2=80=99=
ve suggested for finding the root. Would even be interested in adding =
this functionality to ctoken &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/laurencelundblade/ctoken</a>&gt;.<br =
class=3D"">Technically speaking, this is all about endorsements and =
relates to recent email threads on that subject here.<br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Apr 22, 2020, at 7:54 =
AM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 2020-04-22 16:38, Laurence Lundblade =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Anders,<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D"">Thank =
you for responding!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Feb 27, 2020, at =
9:51 AM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi List,<br class=3D"">In the <a =
href=3D"https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet" =
class=3D"">https://cyberphone.github.io/openbankingwallet</a> project =
the idea was to use attestations. &nbsp;The most recent version of the =
Android app indeed supports this as well.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
an ideal world the root would be provided by Google. &nbsp;However, =
since we don't live in an ideal world there are vendors out there who do =
not follow that "recipe=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""></blockquote>Are you =
referring to Android N Key Attestation that is implemented in the key =
store?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is indeed one =
possible usage.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attes=
tation" =
class=3D"">https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-at=
testation</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">For W3C's =
PaymentRequest API a simpler solution is used which do not match =
attestations but is better than nothing. &nbsp;This scheme builds on =
publishing a manifest associated with the app. &nbsp;Here is my =
particular manifest: &nbsp;https://mobilepki.org/w3cpay/method<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">But I still would like to use attestations and =
also not being tied to browsers.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What about =
making attestations optionally contain a URL to the root like =
https://huawei.com/teeroot ?<br class=3D""></blockquote>I don=E2=80=99t =
know what https://huawei.com/teeroot &nbsp;is. I can=E2=80=99t get =
anything from this URL.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's =
correct, I don't even know where to find Huawei's attestation root which =
is how I came to this idea :)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m guessing you =
are after an X.509 root certificate, one that is used for Android-style =
attestation. Is that right?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Right. &nbsp;Is using an X.509 root certificate an unusual =
way of dealing with attestation verification?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Anders<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Since =
the number of vendors in finite and the Web-PKI is in a fairly good =
shape these days, this could serve as a workaround for those who don't =
have any number of cycles to spend on installing arbitrary tee root =
certificates. &nbsp;That is, a verifier's "trust registry" would simply =
hold host names like "huawei.com", "sony.com", "samsung.com", etc.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If there is a better method, I'm all ears!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">thanx,<br class=3D"">Anders<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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To: Eliot Lear <lear=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Dealing with Attestation Roots
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> On Apr 24, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Eliot Lear =
<lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hiya
>=20
>> On 24 Apr 2020, at 05:31, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to find the =
verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of claims =
inside the attestation.
>>=20
>> Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public key, =
right? How do you locate it expressed in practical terms? =20
>=20
> Yeah, =E2=80=9Ccombination of claims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D?  =
Isn=E2=80=99t that a self-assertion?
>=20

By =E2=80=9Cclaims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t mean =
self-assertion. You use the claims inside the attestation to find the =
key. For example you use OEM ID to find the OEM of the device, then you =
use the UEID to find the specific key. Yes, you are using claims that =
are unverified to find the key, but that is OK. If you get the wrong =
key, nothing works anyway. COSE=E2=80=99s key id is unprotected.

Personally, I prefer to use the COSE kid or =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06> because it keeps =
the SW stack cleaner, but there=E2=80=99s nothing insecure about using =
claims inside the attestation to look up the verification key.=20

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 24, 2020, at 12:16 AM, Eliot Lear &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hiya<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 24 Apr 2020, at 05:31, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The two EAT implementations I know of, use other means to =
find the verification key. One by key ID, another by a combination of =
claims inside the attestation.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Somewhere there must be a trust anchor or a trusted public =
key, right? How do you locate it expressed in practical terms? =
&nbsp;</span></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yeah,=
 =E2=80=9Ccombination of claims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D? =
&nbsp;Isn=E2=80=99t that a self-assertion?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>By =
=E2=80=9Cclaims inside the attestation=E2=80=9D I don=E2=80=99t mean =
self-assertion. You use the claims inside the attestation to find the =
key. For example you use OEM ID to find the OEM of the device, then you =
use the UEID to find the specific key. Yes, you are using claims that =
are unverified to find the key, but that is OK. If you get the wrong =
key, nothing works anyway. COSE=E2=80=99s key id is =
unprotected.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Personally, I prefer to =
use the COSE kid or&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cose-x509-06</a>&nbsp;be=
cause it keeps the SW stack cleaner, but there=E2=80=99s nothing =
insecure about using claims inside the attestation to look up the =
verification key.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_E8D4D633-7901-4665-9BDD-25D533D3185C--


From nobody Tue Apr 28 02:11:08 2020
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From: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00.txt
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Hi Henk,

I've read your draft of using MUD in RATS, it's a very clever and practical=
 idea. MUD provides a mechanism for the manufacturer to describe the usage =
or characteristics of the device, and the Appraisal Policy for Evidence and=
 Endorsement are also one kind of information that the manufacturer knows a=
nd can describe in the MUD File.

Below are some personal ideas:

1. For now, in the draft, you only define three URIs in the MUD File, and t=
he Verifier needs to retrieve the CoSWID-styled RIMs and CWT-styled Endorse=
ments based on these URIs. I agree that this is one way to do. Still, I als=
o think there is an alternative way that is directly defining the YANG modu=
le for the RATS-related information (reference values, endorsements, etc.).=
 The MUD File is already YANG-modeled, so defining YANG-styled RATS-related=
 information can save the implementation work for those Verifiers which don=
't support CoSWID or CWT.

2. Except embedding the MUD URL in DevID, RFC8520 also describes using DHCP=
 and LLDP to convey the MUD URL. Although the latter two ways can't provide=
 explicit protection for the authenticity and integrity of the MUD URL, RFC=
8520 doesn't forbid these two ways and leave the security to the industry t=
o consider because the trust may come from other out-of-band methods. So I =
suggest not to limit to only use DevID in this draft, but allow the DHCP an=
d LLDP ways and let the industry to consider how to provide trust.

3. You use MUD URI in this draft while RFC8520 uses MUD URL, I think it's b=
etter to be consistent with RFC8520.

Regards & Thanks!
Wei Pan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 7:54 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>=20
>=20
>         Title           : MUD-Based RATS Resources Discovery
>         Author          : Henk Birkholz
> 	Filename        : draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 9
> 	Date            : 2020-03-09
>=20
> Abstract:
>    Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) files and the MUD URI that
> point
>    to them are defined in RFC 8520.  This document introduces a new type
>    of MUD file to be delivered in conjunction with a MUD file signature
>    and/or to be referenced via a MUD URI embedded in an IEEE 802.1AR
>    Secure Device Identifier (DevID).  A DevID is a device specific pub-
>    key identity document that can be presented to other entities, e.g. a
>    network management system.  If this entity is also a verifier as
>    defined by the IETF Remote ATtestation procedureS (RATS)
>    architecture, this verifier can use the references found in the MUD
>    file specified in this document in order to discover appropriate
>    Reference Integrity Measurements (RIM), Endorsement Documents, or
>    even globally suitable Remote Attestation Services (RAS).  All three
>    types of theses resources are required to conduct RATS.  Hence, the
>    MUD file defined in this document enables remote attestation
>    procedures by supporting the discovery of these required resources or
>    services.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-mud/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
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> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From nobody Tue Apr 28 07:04:49 2020
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: [Rats] new webex URL for Architecture Design Team meeting
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--=-=-=
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sorry, I let the webex recurrence expire and it won't let me extend it.

RATS architecture design team meeting
Occurs every Tuesday effective Tuesday, April 28, 2020 from 10:05 AM to 11:20 AM, (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)
10:05 am  |  (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)  |  1 hr 15 mins
Meeting number (access code): 610 366 750
Meeting password: 4vY2aS6X8DF

When it's time, start your meeting.
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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--=-=-=--


From nobody Wed Apr 29 01:26:05 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: [Rats] Jim's Jabber questions
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Yesterday, in the jabber channel, Jim asked two questions that I didn't =
see and thus didn't answer.

(1) I think that maybe a better name might be unprotected rather than =
unsigned=09

A: Indeed!  That is such a great idea that the title of =
draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-00 is:
=C2=BBA CBOR Tag for Unprotected CWT Claims Sets=C2=AB.

(2) I assume that a secure channel w/o authentication of both ends is =
not secure in this context?  Or do you only need to have authenticated =
the entity at the end that is providing the claims?

A: Also, the emitter of the claims may be interested in authenticating =
the receiver, so it knows who it is disclosing the claims to, and the =
receiver may not have a good way to authenticate the emitter before =
looking at the claims that it receives confidentially (the Web TLS =
scenario, in other words).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/5gBrySkdtKz1M83tvHgcHHDtxhg>
Subject: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Henk,

I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00

 

  I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this, but do
you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of the signed
reference measurements directly from the device being attested, via the YANG
/ Netconf interface?

  Ironic as it may sound, I'm sure you know that many operators ensure that
their internet routers cannot access the public internet.

 

  Thanks,

/guy

 


Juniper Business Use Only


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Henk,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I see your =
proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; I =
realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this, but do =
you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of the =
signed reference measurements directly from the device being attested, =
via the YANG / Netconf interface?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; Ironic as it may sound, I&#8217;m sure you know =
that many operators ensure that their internet routers cannot access the =
public internet.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>/guy<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><br /><p =
class=3Dmsipfooter30b3d538 align=3D"Center" style=3D"margin:0"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#000000'>Juniper =
Business Use Only</span></p></div></body></html>
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To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:29:21 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Guy,

I think it would be strange for a network equipment device to expose a 
potentially vulnerable management to the open internet, too :)

Luckily, there will probably be a "higher level" constituent in the 
network that an Attester's DevID can be presented to (typically this is 
or is close to a device that is also a Verifier). And these systems 
generally have a way to "reach out" to the internet.

The typically already existing "path" to follow here is the way updates 
find their way to a "network equipment device". If you are air-gap'ed or 
completely isolated wrt every layer 2 topology, it may start to become a 
bit tricky, but your are running around with usb sticks in hand to do 
updates then, too.

YANG is a big solution for big problems. But you can use a YANG server 
to retrieve RIM that are stored on the Attester itself, of course. These 
probably are outdated at some point and then leave you with the same 
illustrated above, again.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 29.04.20 15:56, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00
> 
>    I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this, but 
> do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of the 
> signed reference measurements directly from the device being attested, 
> via the YANG / Netconf interface?
> 
>    Ironic as it may sound, I’m sure you know that many operators ensure 
> that their internet routers cannot access the public internet.
> 
>    Thanks,
> 
> /guy
> 
> 
> Juniper Business Use Only
> 


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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Henk,
  I understand that third-party RIMs could be used, but for embedded
equipment, it seems like the easiest path is to deliver the RIMs as part =
of
the vendor's software update package for the device.  Operators have
well-worn procedures for getting software updates to devices; if the RIM =
is
just part of the package, they don't have to think about a new procedure =
at
all...
  Maybe not for everyone, but it seems like it would be a common =
use-case...
Thanks
/guy



Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:29 AM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>; =
William
Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: retrieving reference measurements

[External Email. Be cautious of content]


Hi Guy,

I think it would be strange for a network equipment device to expose a
potentially vulnerable management to the open internet, too :)

Luckily, there will probably be a "higher level" constituent in the =
network
that an Attester's DevID can be presented to (typically this is or is =
close
to a device that is also a Verifier). And these systems generally have a =
way
to "reach out" to the internet.

The typically already existing "path" to follow here is the way updates =
find
their way to a "network equipment device". If you are air-gap'ed or
completely isolated wrt every layer 2 topology, it may start to become a =
bit
tricky, but your are running around with usb sticks in hand to do =
updates
then, too.

YANG is a big solution for big problems. But you can use a YANG server =
to
retrieve RIM that are stored on the Attester itself, of course. These
probably are outdated at some point and then leave you with the same
illustrated above, again.

Viele Gr=FC=DFe,

Henk


On 29.04.20 15:56, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> Hi Henk,
>
> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in =

> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz
> -rats-mud-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WdyQ3vQ51adw93UKoSwWvgPFs4395vPIWLjuzRBiF
> gldobaQ_dLIeFbhOWan0kBLDLY$
>
>    I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this,=20
> but do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of=20
> the signed reference measurements directly from the device being=20
> attested, via the YANG / Netconf interface?
>
>    Ironic as it may sound, I=92m sure you know that many operators=20
> ensure that their internet routers cannot access the public internet.
>
>    Thanks,
>
> /guy
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>

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To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:29:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Guy,

I think I misunderstood the intend of your initial question. I thought 
it was a "network isolation" question, but it is a "conveyance method" 
question, I think.

CoSWID RIM tags use (and extend, actually), the payload-entry and 
therefore can be bundled in corresponding software/firmware packages 
that are updates. This is the reason why they are used in SUIT 
Manifests, too.

If they are not included in a software package, they can be referred to 
via a MUD ULL / MUD File. MUD is simply a straight forward option to... 
point at device specific things. It is certainly not meant to be 
constraining options, it adds a increasingly popular one.

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 29.04.20 18:19, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> Hi Henk,
>    I understand that third-party RIMs could be used, but for embedded
> equipment, it seems like the easiest path is to deliver the RIMs as part of
> the vendor's software update package for the device.  Operators have
> well-worn procedures for getting software updates to devices; if the RIM is
> just part of the package, they don't have to think about a new procedure at
> all...
>    Maybe not for everyone, but it seems like it would be a common use-case...
> Thanks
> /guy
> 
> 
> 
> Juniper Business Use Only
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:29 AM
> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>; William
> Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
> Subject: Re: retrieving reference measurements
> 
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> 
> 
> Hi Guy,
> 
> I think it would be strange for a network equipment device to expose a
> potentially vulnerable management to the open internet, too :)
> 
> Luckily, there will probably be a "higher level" constituent in the network
> that an Attester's DevID can be presented to (typically this is or is close
> to a device that is also a Verifier). And these systems generally have a way
> to "reach out" to the internet.
> 
> The typically already existing "path" to follow here is the way updates find
> their way to a "network equipment device". If you are air-gap'ed or
> completely isolated wrt every layer 2 topology, it may start to become a bit
> tricky, but your are running around with usb sticks in hand to do updates
> then, too.
> 
> YANG is a big solution for big problems. But you can use a YANG server to
> retrieve RIM that are stored on the Attester itself, of course. These
> probably are outdated at some point and then leave you with the same
> illustrated above, again.
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> On 29.04.20 15:56, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>
>> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz
>> -rats-mud-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WdyQ3vQ51adw93UKoSwWvgPFs4395vPIWLjuzRBiF
>> gldobaQ_dLIeFbhOWan0kBLDLY$
>>
>>     I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this,
>> but do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of
>> the signed reference measurements directly from the device being
>> attested, via the YANG / Netconf interface?
>>
>>     Ironic as it may sound, I’m sure you know that many operators
>> ensure that their internet routers cannot access the public internet.
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>> /guy
>>
>>
>> Juniper Business Use Only
>>


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Hi Guy,

> On 29 Apr 2020, at 15:56, Guy Fedorkow =
<gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Henk,
> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00>
>=20
>   I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this, but =
do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of the =
signed reference measurements directly from the device being attested, =
via the YANG / Netconf interface?

If you can get this information in, then my suggestion would be to drop =
it into a MUD file a=E2=80=99la draft-moran-suit-mud-00.txt.

Eliot

>   Ironic as it may sound, I=E2=80=99m sure you know that many =
operators ensure that their internet routers cannot access the public =
internet.
>=20
>   Thanks,
> /guy
>=20
>=20
> Juniper Business Use Only
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Guy,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 29 Apr 2020, at 15:56, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Henk,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I see =
your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-mud-00</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; I =
realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this, but do =
you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of the =
signed reference measurements directly from the device being attested, =
via the YANG / Netconf interface?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>If you can get this information in, then my suggestion =
would be to drop it into a MUD file a=E2=80=99la&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">draft-moran-suit-mud-00.txt.</span></div><div><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">Eliot</span></font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; Ironic as it may sound, I=E2=80=99=
m sure you know that many operators ensure that their internet routers =
cannot access the public internet.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/guy<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Calibri;" =
class=3D"">Juniper Business Use Only</span></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
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To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] EAP and RIV
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Someone asked about adding a protocol support for EAP to the RIV TPM
Attestation draft on the RATS call yesterday, but I wasn't quick enough to
write down the name.  Could anyone interested in this contact me?

  Thanks

/guy

 


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class=3DMsoNormal>Someone asked about adding a protocol support for EAP =
to the RIV TPM Attestation draft on the RATS call yesterday, but I =
wasn&#8217;t quick enough to write down the name&#8230;&nbsp; Could =
anyone interested in this contact me?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
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From nobody Wed Apr 29 20:00:17 2020
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From: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
Thread-Index: AQHWHkH/XlsP4jf+5k6XXTgIwg1OY6iPxB6AgAEjQ4A=
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 02:59:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Henk, Guy,

I think the key point is that the YANG-modeled reference measurements or th=
e YANG-modeled RIM should be defined. I also suggested this in my comments =
on draft-birkholz-rats-mud. I think there are two main reasons:

1) draft-birkholz-rats-coswid-rim defined the CoSWID-styled reference measu=
rements. Meanwhile, draft-birkholz-rats-mud defines a YANG-modeled URI poin=
ting at the reference measurements. So, by combining the two ideas together=
, the YANG-modeled reference measurements or YANG-modeled RIM can be define=
d directly in the MUD File. This way has an advantage that the Verifiers th=
at only support YANG don't need to support CoSWID and do more implementatio=
n.

2) There is a use case that the reference measurements (signed by the vendo=
r) can be stored at the network devices. In this case, the reference measur=
ements can be retrieved by the Verifier via the YANG / NETCONF interface. H=
enk's concern is how to update the reference measurements when the network =
devices update, and Guy's suggestion is that the new reference measurements=
 (also signed by the vendor) can be part of the vendor's software update pa=
ckage.
I agree with Guy that this is a reasonable use case, and there is a doable =
solution. (Besides, I also think this path for delivering reference measure=
ments can be used by other devices as well.) Therefore, for the network dev=
ices that use the YANG / NETCONF interface, the YANG-modeled reference meas=
urements or YANG-modeled RIM should be defined. And Guy proposed to define =
the YANG-modeled reference measurements in DraftC.

So I think the YANG-modeled reference measurements are worthy to be defined=
, in draft-rats-mud or draft-charra or an independent draft.

Regards & Thanks!
Wei Pan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 12:30 AM
> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org; William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>; Jessic=
a
> Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
>=20
> Hi Guy,
>=20
> I think I misunderstood the intend of your initial question. I thought it=
 was a
> "network isolation" question, but it is a "conveyance method"
> question, I think.
>=20
> CoSWID RIM tags use (and extend, actually), the payload-entry and
> therefore can be bundled in corresponding software/firmware packages
> that are updates. This is the reason why they are used in SUIT Manifests,=
 too.
>=20
> If they are not included in a software package, they can be referred to v=
ia a
> MUD ULL / MUD File. MUD is simply a straight forward option to...
> point at device specific things. It is certainly not meant to be constrai=
ning
> options, it adds a increasingly popular one.
>=20
> Viele Gr=FC=DFe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 29.04.20 18:19, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> > Hi Henk,
> >    I understand that third-party RIMs could be used, but for embedded
> > equipment, it seems like the easiest path is to deliver the RIMs as
> > part of the vendor's software update package for the device.
> > Operators have well-worn procedures for getting software updates to
> > devices; if the RIM is just part of the package, they don't have to
> > think about a new procedure at all...
> >    Maybe not for everyone, but it seems like it would be a common
> use-case...
> > Thanks
> > /guy
> >
> >
> >
> > Juniper Business Use Only
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:29 AM
> > To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
> > Cc: rats@ietf.org; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>;
> > William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
> > Subject: Re: retrieving reference measurements
> >
> > [External Email. Be cautious of content]
> >
> >
> > Hi Guy,
> >
> > I think it would be strange for a network equipment device to expose a
> > potentially vulnerable management to the open internet, too :)
> >
> > Luckily, there will probably be a "higher level" constituent in the
> > network that an Attester's DevID can be presented to (typically this
> > is or is close to a device that is also a Verifier). And these systems
> > generally have a way to "reach out" to the internet.
> >
> > The typically already existing "path" to follow here is the way
> > updates find their way to a "network equipment device". If you are
> > air-gap'ed or completely isolated wrt every layer 2 topology, it may
> > start to become a bit tricky, but your are running around with usb
> > sticks in hand to do updates then, too.
> >
> > YANG is a big solution for big problems. But you can use a YANG server
> > to retrieve RIM that are stored on the Attester itself, of course.
> > These probably are outdated at some point and then leave you with the
> > same illustrated above, again.
> >
> > Viele Gr=FC=DFe,
> >
> > Henk
> >
> >
> > On 29.04.20 15:56, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> >> Hi Henk,
> >>
> >> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements
> >> in
> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkhol
> >> z
> >>
> -rats-mud-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WdyQ3vQ51adw93UKoSwWvgPFs4395vPI
> WLjuzRBi
> >> F
> >> gldobaQ_dLIeFbhOWan0kBLDLY$
> >>
> >>     I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this,
> >> but do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of
> >> the signed reference measurements directly from the device being
> >> attested, via the YANG / Netconf interface?
> >>
> >>     Ironic as it may sound, I'm sure you know that many operators
> >> ensure that their internet routers cannot access the public internet.
> >>
> >>     Thanks,
> >>
> >> /guy
> >>
> >>
> >> Juniper Business Use Only
> >>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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To: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 09:31:24 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
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Hi Wei,
hi Guy,

it is relatively easy to include RIM (or as Dave highlighted we should 
fall back to Reference Values (Manifests) RVM) in software updates. I 
think there is wild agreement there. I think that is not the question, 
the question is how to retrieve them from the Attester and one option 
discussed are YANG management interfaces:

As a test, I tried to model (Co)SWID as YANG once 
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-yang-swid/):

RIM/RVM can become quite big. Every reference value wrt to file 
integrity requires a file identifier that is applicable to file 
integrity measurements conducted by the Attester. Typically, a path and 
a file name are used (which apparently implies the existence of a 
file-system). Due to the volume of measurements, absolute path names 
create high redundancy in a RIM/RVM. (Co)SIWD address this issue by 
recreating a directory tree structure in the representation itself and 
therefore eliminating redundant segments in path notations.

But - this requires the named type "directory" to be nested in the named 
type "directory" in order to construct that tree. That is possible in 
XML and CBOR, but not in YANG modeled data. In YANG, a circular use of 
statements (via groupings) is not allowed. Hence, it is not possible to 
use this "optimization" applied in (Co)SWID. The alternative is to 
fall-back to absolute paths and create an even larger volume of YANG 
model data.

This would also break simple interoperability between YANG-SWID and 
(Co)SWID. It is not impossible - but at the moment I have doubts that it 
is feasible, though (and I arrived at the conclusion by trying to create 
a corresponding YANG module).

If the module in draft-birkholz-yang-swid is acceptable (in general, 
details might still to be fixed) including the absolute path notation it 
uses, then we can revive that I-D.

It's not that I did not thought about your proposal here already, I just 
thought it was not viable enough.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 30.04.20 04:59, Panwei (William) wrote:
> Hi Henk, Guy,
> 
> I think the key point is that the YANG-modeled reference measurements or the YANG-modeled RIM should be defined. I also suggested this in my comments on draft-birkholz-rats-mud. I think there are two main reasons:
> 
> 1) draft-birkholz-rats-coswid-rim defined the CoSWID-styled reference measurements. Meanwhile, draft-birkholz-rats-mud defines a YANG-modeled URI pointing at the reference measurements. So, by combining the two ideas together, the YANG-modeled reference measurements or YANG-modeled RIM can be defined directly in the MUD File. This way has an advantage that the Verifiers that only support YANG don't need to support CoSWID and do more implementation.
> 
> 2) There is a use case that the reference measurements (signed by the vendor) can be stored at the network devices. In this case, the reference measurements can be retrieved by the Verifier via the YANG / NETCONF interface. Henk's concern is how to update the reference measurements when the network devices update, and Guy's suggestion is that the new reference measurements (also signed by the vendor) can be part of the vendor's software update package.
> I agree with Guy that this is a reasonable use case, and there is a doable solution. (Besides, I also think this path for delivering reference measurements can be used by other devices as well.) Therefore, for the network devices that use the YANG / NETCONF interface, the YANG-modeled reference measurements or YANG-modeled RIM should be defined. And Guy proposed to define the YANG-modeled reference measurements in DraftC.
> 
> So I think the YANG-modeled reference measurements are worthy to be defined, in draft-rats-mud or draft-charra or an independent draft.
> 
> Regards & Thanks!
> Wei Pan
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
>> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 12:30 AM
>> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
>> Cc: rats@ietf.org; William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>; Jessica
>> Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Rats] retrieving reference measurements
>>
>> Hi Guy,
>>
>> I think I misunderstood the intend of your initial question. I thought it was a
>> "network isolation" question, but it is a "conveyance method"
>> question, I think.
>>
>> CoSWID RIM tags use (and extend, actually), the payload-entry and
>> therefore can be bundled in corresponding software/firmware packages
>> that are updates. This is the reason why they are used in SUIT Manifests, too.
>>
>> If they are not included in a software package, they can be referred to via a
>> MUD ULL / MUD File. MUD is simply a straight forward option to...
>> point at device specific things. It is certainly not meant to be constraining
>> options, it adds a increasingly popular one.
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29.04.20 18:19, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
>>> Hi Henk,
>>>     I understand that third-party RIMs could be used, but for embedded
>>> equipment, it seems like the easiest path is to deliver the RIMs as
>>> part of the vendor's software update package for the device.
>>> Operators have well-worn procedures for getting software updates to
>>> devices; if the RIM is just part of the package, they don't have to
>>> think about a new procedure at all...
>>>     Maybe not for everyone, but it seems like it would be a common
>> use-case...
>>> Thanks
>>> /guy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Juniper Business Use Only
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:29 AM
>>> To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
>>> Cc: rats@ietf.org; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>;
>>> William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
>>> Subject: Re: retrieving reference measurements
>>>
>>> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Guy,
>>>
>>> I think it would be strange for a network equipment device to expose a
>>> potentially vulnerable management to the open internet, too :)
>>>
>>> Luckily, there will probably be a "higher level" constituent in the
>>> network that an Attester's DevID can be presented to (typically this
>>> is or is close to a device that is also a Verifier). And these systems
>>> generally have a way to "reach out" to the internet.
>>>
>>> The typically already existing "path" to follow here is the way
>>> updates find their way to a "network equipment device". If you are
>>> air-gap'ed or completely isolated wrt every layer 2 topology, it may
>>> start to become a bit tricky, but your are running around with usb
>>> sticks in hand to do updates then, too.
>>>
>>> YANG is a big solution for big problems. But you can use a YANG server
>>> to retrieve RIM that are stored on the Attester itself, of course.
>>> These probably are outdated at some point and then leave you with the
>>> same illustrated above, again.
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29.04.20 15:56, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>
>>>> I see your proposal for identifying URIs for reference measurements
>>>> in
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkhol
>>>> z
>>>>
>> -rats-mud-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!WdyQ3vQ51adw93UKoSwWvgPFs4395vPI
>> WLjuzRBi
>>>> F
>>>> gldobaQ_dLIeFbhOWan0kBLDLY$
>>>>
>>>>      I realize that some constrained devices may not want to do this,
>>>> but do you think draft-charra could be extended to allow retrieval of
>>>> the signed reference measurements directly from the device being
>>>> attested, via the YANG / Netconf interface?
>>>>
>>>>      Ironic as it may sound, I'm sure you know that many operators
>>>> ensure that their internet routers cannot access the public internet.
>>>>
>>>>      Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> /guy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Juniper Business Use Only
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: April 28 Virtual Interim recording
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Subject: [Rats] April 28 Virtual Interim recording
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