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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Nancy Cam-Winget, a Chair of the rats working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Nancy Cam-Winget


Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  100 Minutes, 50 Minutes
Number of Attendees: 60
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: secdispatch saag mile acme tls sacm teep suit netconf opsec masque

 Key Participant Conflict:  anima cose dprive





People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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From: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
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Hi authors,



I've read this draft and have some comments below:



Section 1

   If a mutually Secured Channel is established between two remote peers, a=
nd
   if that Secure Channel provides the correct properties, it is
   possible to omit the protection provided by COSE, creating a use case
   for unprotected CWT Claims Sets.  Similarly, if there is one-way
   authentication, the party that did not authenticate may be in a
   position to send authentication information through this channel that
   allows the already authenticated party to authenticate the other
   party.



I'm confused about the 2nd sentence. Based on these two sentences, I think =
the 'this channel' in the 2nd sentence means the 'mutually Secured Channel'=
 in the 1st sentence. If 'this channel' is secure, then the two parties sho=
uld have already authenticated each other. In my understanding, maybe the 2=
nd sentence is talking about that the channel is half established and one-w=
ay authentication is finished, right? If yes, I think the meaning should be=
 'after one-way authentication of the channel is finished, the protection o=
f the Claims sent from the already authenticated party to the other party t=
hat did not authenticate can be provided by this channel'.


   Consequently, in a well-defined
   scope, it might be acceptable to strip a CWT of its COSE container an
   replace the CWT Claims Set's CWT CBOR tag with a UCCS CBOR tag for
   further processing - or vice versa.



Nit: s/COSE container an/COSE container and/



Section 2


   Use cases involving the conveyance of claims, in particular, remote
   attestations [I-D.ietf-rats-architecture] require a standardized data
   schema and format that can be trasferred and transported using
   different communication channels.  As these are Claims, [RFC8392] are
   a suitable format but how these Claims are secured depends on the
   deployment, the security capabilities of the device, as well as their
   software stack.



Nits: s/trasferred/transferred/, s/[RFC8392] are/[RFC8392] is/



Section 3


   As UCCS were initially created for use in Remote ATtestation
   procedureS (RATS) Secure Channels, the following subsection provides
   a discussion of their use in these channels.



In the terminology section, the UCCS is short for "Unprotected CWT Claims S=
et", so I think it is a singular noun rather than a plural noun.



Section 3.1


   If only authenticity/integrity for a Claim is required, a Secure
   Channel MUST be established to, at minimum, provide integrity of the
   communication.  Further, the provider of the UCCS SHOULD be
   authenticated by the reciever to ensure the channel is truly secured
   and the sender is validated.  If confidentiality is also required,
   the receiving side SHOULD also be authenticated.



Nit: s/reciever/receiver/

About the first sentence, how the authenticity of a Claim is guaranteed whe=
n the Secure Channel only provide the integrity of the communication?

About the last sentence, I think the key point of providing confidentiality=
 of a Claim isn't that the sender authenticates the receiver, but the Claim=
 should be encrypted. In this UCCS case, the Secure Channel should provide =
the encryption mechanism.



   The extent to which a Secure Channel can provide assurances that UCCS

   originate from a trustworthy attesting environment depends on the

   characteristics of both the cryptographic mechanisms used to

   establish the channel and the characteristics of the attesting

   environment itself.  A Secure Channel established or maintained using

   weak cryptography may not provide the assurance required by a relying

   party of the authenticity and integrity of the UCCS.



I think if the keys used for signing and encrypting the Claims are also use=
d for establishing the Secure Channel, then the authenticity can be easily =
guaranteed. But


   As with EATs nested in other EATs (Section 3.12.1.2 of
   [I-D.ietf-rats-eat]), the Secure Channel does not endorse fully
   formed CWTs transferred through it.  Effectively, the COSE envelope
   of a CWT shields the CWT Claims Set from the endorsement of the
   Secure Channel.  (Note that EAT might add a nested UCCS Claim, and
   this statement does not apply to UCCS nested into UCCS, only to fully
   formed CWTs)



This paragraph is really hard to understand. I guess the meaning is: when u=
sing the Secure Channel to transfer the EATs in which other EATs are nested=
, the nested EATs and upper-level EATs are endorsed/signed by using COSE an=
d the Secure Channel has no direct relationship with these EATs. And when u=
sing the Secure Channel to transfer the UCCSs in which other UCCSs are nest=
ed, these UCCSs can be seen as signed by the sending party of the Secure Ch=
annel.

But when using the Secure Channel to transfer the EATs in which the UCCSs a=
re nested, which one endorses the UCCSs, the upper-level EATs or the Secure=
 Channel?



Section 5


   {#secchan} discusses security considerations for Secure Channels, in
   which UCCS might be used.



Nit: the reference to {#secchan} is missing.



Besides the use cases described in the current draft, I think there is anot=
her suitable use case for UCCS.

The Attester/sender can decompose existing signed structures, then put all =
the parts into UCCS claims, including the signature of the 'original' struc=
ture. And the Verifier/receiver can compose all the UCCS claims into the or=
iginal structure canonically.

For example, assume the existing signed structure is {data1, data2, data3, =
signature-of-all-data}. After the sender decomposes the structure and puts =
all the parts into UCCS claims, the new structure is {UCCS(data1), UCCS(dat=
a2), UCCS(data3), UCCS(signature-of-all-data)}. The receiver can recompose =
the structure, which will be the original structure {data1, data2, data3, s=
ignature-of-all-data}.

The remote attestation can be done periodically or several times. The first=
 set of claims has to be a complete set of all the values in the signed str=
ucture. But in the subsequent sets of claims, some of the values can be omi=
tted, because they never change and in remote attestation they would always=
 be transmitted redundantly. So the sender can most definitely only convey =
a subset and the receiver can rebuild the original structure. This can save=
 the bytes.



Regards & Thanks!

Wei Pan



> -----Original Message-----

> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of internet-drafts@ietf.org

> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:46 AM

> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

> Subject: I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt

>

>

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts

> directories.

>

>

>         Title           : A CBOR Tag for Unprotected CWT Claims Sets

>         Authors         : Henk Birkholz

>                           Jeremy O'Donoghue

>                           Nancy Cam-Winget

>                           Carsten Bormann

>    Filename        : draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt

>    Pages           : 8

>    Date            : 2020-06-01

>

> Abstract:

>    CBOR Web Token (CWT, RFC 8392) Claims Sets sometimes do not need

> the

>    protection afforded by wrapping them into COSE, as is required for a

>    true CWT.  This specification defines a CBOR tag for such unprotected

>    CWT Claims Sets (UCCS) and discusses conditions for its proper use.

>

>

> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/

>

> There are also htmlized versions available at:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01

>

> A diff from the previous version is available at:

> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01

>

>

> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of

> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.

>

> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> I-D-Announce mailing list

> I-D-Announce@ietf.org<mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce

> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or

> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi authors,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I&#8217;ve read this draft a=
nd have some comments below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 1<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; If a<b> mutually Secured Channel</b> is e=
stablished between two remote peers, and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; if that Secure Channel provides the corre=
ct properties, it is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; possible to omit the protection provided =
by COSE, creating a use case<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; for unprotected CWT Claims Sets.&nbsp; Si=
milarly, if there is one-way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication, the party that did not au=
thenticate may be in a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; position to send authentication informati=
on through
<b>this channel</b> that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; allows the already authenticated party to=
 authenticate the other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:3.6pt;text-ali=
gn:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; party.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I&#8217;m confused about the=
 2nd sentence. Based on these two sentences, I think the &#8216;this channe=
l&#8217; in the 2nd sentence means the &#8216;mutually Secured Channel&#821=
7; in the 1st sentence. If &#8216;this channel&#8217; is secure, then the t=
wo
 parties should have already authenticated each other. In my understanding,=
 maybe the 2nd sentence is talking about that the channel is half establish=
ed and one-way authentication is finished, right? If yes, I think the meani=
ng should be &#8216;after one-way authentication
 of the channel is finished, the protection of the Claims sent from the alr=
eady authenticated party to the other party that did not authenticate can b=
e provided by this channel&#8217;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Consequently, in a well-defined<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; scope, it might be acceptable to strip a =
CWT of its COSE container
<b>an</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; replace the CWT Claims Set's CWT CBOR tag=
 with a UCCS CBOR tag for<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; further processing - or vice versa.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Nit: s/COSE container an/COS=
E container and/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 2<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Use cases involving the conveyance of cla=
ims, in particular, remote<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; attestations [I-D.ietf-rats-architecture]=
 require a standardized data<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; schema and format that can be
<b>trasferred</b> and transported using<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; different communication channels.&nbsp; A=
s these are Claims, [RFC8392]
<b>are</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; a suitable format but how these Claims ar=
e secured depends on the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; deployment, the security capabilities of =
the device, as well as their<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; software stack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Nits: s/trasferred/transferr=
ed/, s/[RFC8392] are/[RFC8392] is/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 3<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; As UCCS
<b>were</b> initially created for use in Remote ATtestation<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; procedureS (RATS) Secure Channels, the fo=
llowing subsection provides<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; a discussion of their use in these channe=
ls.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In the terminology section, =
the UCCS is short for &#8220;Unprotected CWT Claims Set&#8221;, so I think =
it is a singular noun rather than a plural noun.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 3.1<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; If only authenticity/integrity for a Clai=
m is required, a Secure<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Channel MUST be established to, at minimu=
m, provide integrity of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; communication.&nbsp; Further, the provide=
r of the UCCS SHOULD be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; authenticated by the
<b>reciever</b> to ensure the channel is truly secured<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; and the sender is validated.&nbsp; If con=
fidentiality is also required,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; the receiving side SHOULD also be authent=
icated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Nit: s/reciever/receiver/<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">About the first sentence, ho=
w the authenticity of a Claim is guaranteed when the Secure Channel only pr=
ovide the integrity of the communication?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">About the last sentence, I t=
hink the key point of providing confidentiality of a Claim isn&#8217;t that=
 the sender authenticates the receiver, but the Claim should be encrypted. =
In this UCCS case, the Secure Channel should
 provide the encryption mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; The extent to which a Secure Cha=
nnel can provide assurances that UCCS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; originate from a trustworthy att=
esting environment depends on the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; characteristics of both the cryp=
tographic mechanisms used to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; establish the channel and the ch=
aracteristics of the attesting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; environment itself.&nbsp; A Secu=
re Channel established or maintained using<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; weak cryptography may not provid=
e the assurance required by a relying<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; party of the authenticity and in=
tegrity of the UCCS.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think if the keys used for=
 signing and encrypting the Claims are also used for establishing the Secur=
e Channel, then the authenticity can be easily guaranteed. But
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; As with EATs nested in other EATs (Sectio=
n 3.12.1.2 of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-rats-eat]),
<b>the Secure Channel does not endorse fully<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; formed CWTs transferred through it</sp=
an></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">.&nbsp; Effectively,
<b>the COSE envelope<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; of a CWT shields the CWT Claims Set fr=
om the endorsement of the<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Secure Channel.</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:black">&nbsp; (Note that EAT might add a nested UCCS Claim, and<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; this statement does not apply to
<b>UCCS nested into UCCS</b>, only to fully<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; formed CWTs)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This paragraph is really har=
d to understand. I guess the meaning is: when using the Secure Channel to t=
ransfer the EATs in which other EATs are nested, the nested EATs and upper-=
level EATs are endorsed/signed by using
 COSE and the Secure Channel has no direct relationship with these EATs. An=
d when using the Secure Channel to transfer the UCCSs in which other UCCSs =
are nested, these UCCSs can be seen as signed by the sending party of the S=
ecure Channel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">But when using the Secure Ch=
annel to transfer the EATs in which the UCCSs are nested, which one endorse=
s the UCCSs, the upper-level EATs or the Secure Channel?<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 5<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; {#secchan} discusses security considerati=
ons for Secure Channels, in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; which UCCS might be used.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Nit: the reference to {#secc=
han} is missing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Besides the use cases descri=
bed in the current draft, I think there is another suitable use case for UC=
CS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The Attester/sender can deco=
mpose existing signed structures, then put all the parts into UCCS claims, =
including the signature of the 'original' structure. And the Verifier/recei=
ver can compose all the UCCS claims
 into the original structure canonically.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">For example, assume the exis=
ting signed structure is {data1, data2, data3, signature-of-all-data}. Afte=
r the sender decomposes the structure and puts all the parts into UCCS clai=
ms, the new structure is {UCCS(data1),
 UCCS(data2), UCCS(data3), UCCS(signature-of-all-data)}. The receiver can r=
ecompose the structure, which will be the original structure {data1, data2,=
 data3, signature-of-all-data}.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The remote attestation can b=
e done periodically or several times. The first set of claims has to be a c=
omplete set of all the values in the signed structure. But in the subsequen=
t sets of claims, some of the values
 can be omitted, because they never change and in remote attestation they w=
ould always be transmitted redundantly. So the sender can most definitely o=
nly convey a subset and the receiver can rebuild the original structure. Th=
is can save the bytes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards &amp; Thanks!<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Wei Pan<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; -----Original Message--=
---</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; From: I-D-Announce [mai=
lto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Of internet-drafts@ietf=
.org</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 2, =
2020 2:46 AM</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; To: i-d-announce@ietf.o=
rg</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Subject: I-D Action: dr=
aft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; A New Internet-Draft is=
 available from the on-line Internet-Drafts</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; directories.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : A CBOR Tag for Unprotected CWT Claims Sets</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authors&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; : Henk Birkholz</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jeremy O'Donoghue=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Nancy Cam-Winget<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Carsten Bormann</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 8</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2020-06-01</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Abstract:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;CBOR =
Web Token (CWT, RFC 8392) Claims Sets sometimes do not need</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; the</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;prote=
ction afforded by wrapping them into COSE, as is required for a</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;true =
CWT.&nbsp; This specification defines a CBOR tag for such unprotected</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;CWT C=
laims Sets (UCCS) and discusses conditions for its proper use.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; The IETF datatracker st=
atus page for this draft is:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/</span></a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; There are also htmlized=
 versions available at:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01</span></a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01</span></a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; A diff from the previou=
s version is available at:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.=
ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/=
rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01</span></a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Please note that it may=
 take a couple of minutes from the time of</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; submission until the ht=
mlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Internet-Drafts are als=
o available by anonymous FTP at:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/in=
ternet-drafts/</span></a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; _______________________=
________________________</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; I-D-Announce mailing li=
st</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-A=
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<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">I-D-Announce@ietf.org=
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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.=
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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Internet-Draft director=
ies: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://www.ietf.org/s=
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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ie=
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<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ie=
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Hi Wei,

thanks for the review!

Please see comments in-line. All assertions are from me as an 
individual. The authors will discuss your input as soon as possible, but 
I also have pulled in some editorial fixes already as is visible here:

> https://ietf-rats.github.io/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs.html


On 03.06.20 13:19, Panwei (William) wrote:
> Hi authors,
> 
> I’ve read this draft and have some comments below:
> 
> Section 1
> 
>     If a*mutually Secured Channel* is established between two remote 
> peers, and
> 
>     if that Secure Channel provides the correct properties, it is
> 
>     possible to omit the protection provided by COSE, creating a use case
> 
>     for unprotected CWT Claims Sets.  Similarly, if there is one-way
> 
>     authentication, the party that did not authenticate may be in a
> 
>     position to send authentication information through *this channel* that
> 
>     allows the already authenticated party to authenticate the other
> 
>     party.
> 
> I’m confused about the 2nd sentence. Based on these two sentences, I 
> think the ‘this channel’ in the 2nd sentence means the ‘mutually Secured 
> Channel’ in the 1st sentence. If ‘this channel’ is secure, then the two 
> parties should have already authenticated each other. In my 
> understanding, maybe the 2nd sentence is talking about that the channel 
> is half established and one-way authentication is finished, right? If 
> yes, I think the meaning should be ‘after one-way authentication of the 
> channel is finished, the protection of the Claims sent from the already 
> authenticated party to the other party that did not authenticate can be 
> provided by this channel’.

Using just one sentence here might have been a tad bit too concise for 
the sake of readability. Yes, there are situations, where only one of 
the two peers is authenticated and the secure channel characteristics 
work only "one way". This can be due to design or due to a channel not 
been set up completely yet.

We probably need more text to elaborate on this. Maybe not in the Intro 
though.

> 
>     Consequently, in a well-defined
> 
>     scope, it might be acceptable to strip a CWT of its COSE container *an*
> 
>     replace the CWT Claims Set's CWT CBOR tag with a UCCS CBOR tag for
> 
>     further processing - or vice versa.
> 
> Nit: s/COSE container an/COSE container and/

fixed

> 
> Section 2
> 
>     Use cases involving the conveyance of claims, in particular, remote
> 
>     attestations [I-D.ietf-rats-architecture] require a standardized data
> 
>     schema and format that can be *trasferred* and transported using
> 
>     different communication channels.  As these are Claims, [RFC8392] *are*
> 
>     a suitable format but how these Claims are secured depends on the
> 
>     deployment, the security capabilities of the device, as well as their
> 
>     software stack.
> 
> Nits: s/trasferred/transferred/, s/[RFC8392] are/[RFC8392] is/

fixed

> 
> Section 3
> 
>     As UCCS *were* initially created for use in Remote ATtestation
> 
>     procedureS (RATS) Secure Channels, the following subsection provides
> 
>     a discussion of their use in these channels.
> 
> In the terminology section, the UCCS is short for “Unprotected CWT 
> Claims Set”, so I think it is a singular noun rather than a plural noun.

As UCCSs does not really flow from the tongue, I tweaked the definition 
text a bit. It now reads: "Unprotected CWT Claims Set(s); CBOR map(s) of 
Claims [...]". While that fixes the problem for now, there might be more 
elegant solutions here.

> 
> Section 3.1
> 
>     If only authenticity/integrity for a Claim is required, a Secure
> 
>     Channel MUST be established to, at minimum, provide integrity of the
> 
>     communication.  Further, the provider of the UCCS SHOULD be
> 
>     authenticated by the *reciever* to ensure the channel is truly secured
> 
>     and the sender is validated.  If confidentiality is also required,
> 
>     the receiving side SHOULD also be authenticated.
> 
> Nit: s/reciever/receiver/

fixed

> 
> About the first sentence, how the authenticity of a Claim is guaranteed 
> when the Secure Channel only provide the integrity of the communication?

This text implies the characteristics of a signature 
(authenticity/integrity). As part of the secure channel characteristics, 
the fact that an UCCS is conveyed via the secure channel by an 
authenticated peer (that created the secure channel) basically is the 
substitute of the "authenticity part of the signature characteristic". 
What remains to be provided is then the "integrity part of the signature 
characteristic". For this the secure channel must provide integrity 
protection for the UCCS.

This probably also needs more elaboration and clear wording. Thanks!

> 
> About the last sentence, I think the key point of providing 
> confidentiality of a Claim isn’t that the sender authenticates the 
> receiver, but the Claim should be encrypted. In this UCCS case, the 
> Secure Channel should provide the encryption mechanism.

Yes, while the UCCS is not encrypted itself, a secure channel that 
encrypts messages for conveyance is probably the most likely solution here.

> 
>     The extent to which a Secure Channel can provide assurances that UCCS
> 
>     originate from a trustworthy attesting environment depends on the
> 
>     characteristics of both the cryptographic mechanisms used to
> 
>     establish the channel and the characteristics of the attesting
> 
>     environment itself.  A Secure Channel established or maintained using
> 
>     weak cryptography may not provide the assurance required by a relying
> 
>     party of the authenticity and integrity of the UCCS.
> 
> I think if the keys used for signing and encrypting the Claims are also 
> used for establishing the Secure Channel, then the authenticity can be 
> easily guaranteed. But

This would imply that the creator of UCCS would also be able to create 
CWT, which I think is not always the case. In general, the key semantics 
are vital here. If there is a separation of duty here with different 
sets of keys for different applications, using keys for multiple 
purposes might not be possible.

But maybe I am also missing something here that you tried to highlight.

> 
>     As with EATs nested in other EATs (Section 3.12.1.2 of
> 
>     [I-D.ietf-rats-eat]), *the Secure Channel does not endorse fully*
> 
> *   formed CWTs transferred through it*.  Effectively, *the COSE envelope*
> 
> *   of a CWT shields the CWT Claims Set from the endorsement of the*
> 
> *   Secure Channel.*  (Note that EAT might add a nested UCCS Claim, and
> 
>     this statement does not apply to *UCCS nested into UCCS*, only to fully
> 
>     formed CWTs)
> 
> This paragraph is really hard to understand. I guess the meaning is: 
> when using the Secure Channel to transfer the EATs in which other EATs 
> are nested, the nested EATs and upper-level EATs are endorsed/signed by 
> using COSE and the Secure Channel has no direct relationship with these 
> EATs. And when using the Secure Channel to transfer the UCCSs in which 
> other UCCSs are nested, these UCCSs can be seen as signed by the sending 
> party of the Secure Channel.

Yes! I can see how this is also very compact text. Brevity for the sake 
of readability does not always makes it easier to understand, too. 
Analogously, we might need more text here, too.

> 
> But when using the Secure Channel to transfer the EATs in which the 
> UCCSs are nested, which one endorses the UCCSs, the upper-level EATs or 
> the Secure Channel?

That would be the upper-level EAT. If we want that to be more 
fine-grained, we'd need more text. But here simplicity is an enabler of 
security and I would like to abstain from that and go with "closest 
signature to the UCCS wins".

> 
> Section 5
> 
>     {#secchan} discusses security considerations for Secure Channels, in
> 
>     which UCCS might be used.
> 
> Nit: the reference to {#secchan} is missing.

fixed

> 
> Besides the use cases described in the current draft, I think there is 
> another suitable use case for UCCS.
> 
> The Attester/sender can decompose existing signed structures, then put 
> all the parts into UCCS claims, including the signature of the 
> 'original' structure. And the Verifier/receiver can compose all the UCCS 
> claims into the original structure canonically.
> 
> For example, assume the existing signed structure is {data1, data2, 
> data3, signature-of-all-data}. After the sender decomposes the structure 
> and puts all the parts into UCCS claims, the new structure is 
> {UCCS(data1), UCCS(data2), UCCS(data3), UCCS(signature-of-all-data)}. 
> The receiver can recompose the structure, which will be the original 
> structure {data1, data2, data3, signature-of-all-data}.

This touches a re-occurring topic that we also find, for example, with 
"re-encoding XML renders the original signature invalid". It also 
touches on the topic of canonical decomposition and composition. I think 
that is basically a third option of "where do the signature 
characteristics go":

1.) signature
2.) secure channel
3.) signature value in UCCS

I think that could be a worthwhile addition to the use of UCCS and we 
will discuss this and come back to that topic!

> 
> The remote attestation can be done periodically or several times. The 
> first set of claims has to be a complete set of all the values in the 
> signed structure. But in the subsequent sets of claims, some of the 
> values can be omitted, because they never change and in remote 
> attestation they would always be transmitted redundantly. So the sender 
> can most definitely only convey a subset and the receiver can rebuild 
> the original structure. This can save the bytes.

That is actually an approach that we use in TUDA already. TUDA is not 
using maps but arrays to be even more concise than CWT, but the 
principle is the same - like I-Frames and P-Frames. Omitting "already 
shared/known" information in the context of a secure channel could be an 
interesting topic, too. We have to be careful about scope creep, but I 
am certain we will come back to this topic.

> 
> Regards & Thanks!
> 
> Wei Pan

Big thanks for comments and thoughts on content. Please expect another 
reply in.. some future :-)


Viele Grüße,

Henk

> 
>> -----Original Message-----
> 
>> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> 
>> Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2020 2:46 AM
> 
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> 
>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> 
>> directories.
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>>         Title           : A CBOR Tag for Unprotected CWT Claims Sets
> 
>>         Authors         : Henk Birkholz
> 
>>                           Jeremy O'Donoghue
> 
>>                           Nancy Cam-Winget
> 
>>                           Carsten Bormann
> 
>>    Filename        : draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
> 
>>    Pages           : 8
> 
>>    Date            : 2020-06-01
> 
>> 
> 
>> Abstract:
> 
>>    CBOR Web Token (CWT, RFC 8392) Claims Sets sometimes do not need
> 
>> the
> 
>>    protection afforded by wrapping them into COSE, as is required for a
> 
>>    true CWT.  This specification defines a CBOR tag for such unprotected
> 
>>    CWT Claims Sets (UCCS) and discusses conditions for its proper use.
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs/
> 
>> 
> 
>> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> 
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01
> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01
> 
>> 
> 
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> 
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> 
>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
>> 
> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> 
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
> 
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
> 
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>
> 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> 
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> 
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 


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Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-tpm-based-network-device-attest-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : TPM-based Network Device Remote Integrity Verification
        Authors         : Guy Fedorkow
                          Eric Voit
                          Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rats-tpm-based-network-device-attest-00.txt
	Pages           : 36
	Date            : 2020-06-03

Abstract:
   This document describes a workflow for remote attestation of
   integrity of network devices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-tpm-based-network-device-attest/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-tpm-based-network-device-attest-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-tpm-based-network-device-attest-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Wed Jun  3 12:24:24 2020
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Perfectly in favor of the UCCS tag.

The security discussion in this seems like the tail wagging the dog. =
UCCS is the tail. Conveyance Security is the dog.=20

I think this draft should only say it is up to you to attach a dog to =
this tail.  CWT=E2=80=99s are a dog+tail so you don=E2=80=99t have to =
worry. UCCS is tail-only so you do. Your choice of dog is of course up =
to you. Choose wisely. =20

Note also that UCCS is useful if you don=E2=80=99t like the type of dog =
that CWT comes with. It allows you use different types of dogs with a =
CWT-style tail.

:-)

Or said another way, I=E2=80=99m not so much in favor of section 3. =
Anything about RATS / EAT security should be in RATS / EAT docs, not =
here. Would like the draft to say simply =E2=80=9CBe warned. UCCS does =
not have the security that CWT does. If you use UCCS, you should add =
security=E2=80=9D.

LL






From nobody Thu Jun  4 02:00:44 2020
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From: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
To: "draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Draft-charra's use of RPC to retrieve log entries may have a potential scalability issue
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Hi authors,

When I reviewed the YANG module defined in this draft, I noticed that the l=
og is retrieved by using RPC, which I think there may be a scalability issu=
e.

The draft now defines two types of logs: bios-event-logs and ima-event-logs=
, both of them are designed to be retrieved by RPC. I don't know whether th=
e bios-event-logs will have too many entries, but I think ima-event-logs do=
 have the possibility.

The IMA measures the files in the device, calculate their hash values, and =
extend the hash values into the PCRs. For the ima-event-logs, it records al=
l the files measured by IMA, including the file name, hash value, pcr-index=
, etc. Therefore, it's easy to see that the size of the IMA log is proporti=
onal to the number of the measured files. When there is a large number of f=
iles in the Attester that need to be measured, the number of log entries ca=
n also be significant. The problem can be much more severe in the Composite=
 Devices, i.e., a Composite Device contains multiple Attesters, then the to=
tal amount of log entries is the sum of all files of all Attesters.

The log size is uncertain, it may consist of only a few entries, but it als=
o may exceed tens of or even hundreds of megabytes. When the log size is la=
rge, it's inappropriate of transferring the log by messages like using NETC=
ONF RPC. Because sending the log can take up a lot of bandwidth, and other =
features using the same NETCONF connection will be affected. I think other =
mechanisms need to be considered here, maybe using a separate protocol to t=
ransfer the log.

So what do you authors think? Is this a reasonable problem needs to be addr=
essed?

Regards & Thanks!
Wei Pan


From nobody Thu Jun  4 12:11:19 2020
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
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At least one private response seems to have misunderstood my intent. Let =
me try again.

I am saying that most security discussion should be moved out of UCCS =
and into use case specific documents and contexts:
- UCCS as RATS claims
- UCCS as RATS endorsements
- UCCS as RATS attestation results
- UCCS in GlobalPlatform
- UCCS in ACE
- UCCS in future unanticipated use case #1 that has nothing to do with =
RATS or ACE
- UCCS in future unanticipated use case #2 that has nothing to do with =
RATS or ACE

It seems better factoring to associate the security model with the use =
cases than with the data structure format. It seems hard to anticipate =
the security models needed for future use cases.

In the three RATS uses of UCCS (claims, endorsements, results), the =
characteristics of the security needed vary a lot and all three are not =
all covered here.

The text doesn=E2=80=99t seem to anticipate securing UCCS with CMS or a =
TPM-based signing scheme. It focuses on TLS / Secure Channels.=20

The security of nested EATs seems better discussed in EAT.

CWT is part of the establishment of the Verifier=E2=80=99s trust in an =
Attester. That topic requires Endorsements and seems better in the =
context of RATS architecture or related.=20


All that said, I don=E2=80=99t think the section 3 security discussion =
is harmful, just that it may become outmoded and necessarily bypassed as =
the use cases fill in.

LL


> On Jun 3, 2020, at 12:24 PM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
> Perfectly in favor of the UCCS tag.
>=20
> The security discussion in this seems like the tail wagging the dog. =
UCCS is the tail. Conveyance Security is the dog.=20
>=20
> I think this draft should only say it is up to you to attach a dog to =
this tail.  CWT=E2=80=99s are a dog+tail so you don=E2=80=99t have to =
worry. UCCS is tail-only so you do. Your choice of dog is of course up =
to you. Choose wisely. =20
>=20
> Note also that UCCS is useful if you don=E2=80=99t like the type of =
dog that CWT comes with. It allows you use different types of dogs with =
a CWT-style tail.
>=20
> :-)
>=20
> Or said another way, I=E2=80=99m not so much in favor of section 3. =
Anything about RATS / EAT security should be in RATS / EAT docs, not =
here. Would like the draft to say simply =E2=80=9CBe warned. UCCS does =
not have the security that CWT does. If you use UCCS, you should add =
security=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> LL
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


From nobody Thu Jun  4 12:21:24 2020
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Subject: [Rats] A few more comments on UCCS
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Consider retitle 3.2 to Confidentiality (privacy these days is more =
about PII and non-tracking)


Please add text like this on converting UCCS to CWT and back again.

Note that the UCCS tag is NOT to be used on the map that contains the
claims in an actual CWT. A UCCS is distinct from a CWT. The correct
way to convert a UCCS to a CWT is to remove the UCCS tag (if it has
one), then sign or encrypt it with COSE and add the CWT tag if
necessary. To convert a CWT to a UCCS, remove the COSE protection,
then add the UCCS tag if necessary.


I think section 2 could be more direct in stating that a reason to use =
UCCS is because the characteristics of COSE / CWT don=E2=80=99t match =
the use case.  For example, it is not possible to use a TPM to sign a =
CWT, but it is possible to use to sign a UCCS.

LL=

--Apple-Mail=_051646EE-5FA1-46E6-B5E9-CAAF0900A404
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Consider retitle 3.2 to Confidentiality (privacy these days =
is more about PII and non-tracking)<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please add text like this on converting UCCS to CWT and back =
again.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Note that the UCCS tag is NOT to be used on the map that =
contains the</div><div class=3D"">claims in an actual CWT. A UCCS is =
distinct from a CWT. The correct</div><div class=3D"">way to convert a =
UCCS to a CWT is to remove the UCCS tag (if it has</div><div =
class=3D"">one), then sign or encrypt it with COSE and add the CWT tag =
if</div><div class=3D"">necessary. To convert a CWT to a UCCS, remove =
the COSE protection,</div><div class=3D"">then add the UCCS tag if =
necessary.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think section 2 could =
be more direct in stating that a reason to use UCCS is because the =
characteristics of COSE / CWT don=E2=80=99t match the use case. =
&nbsp;For example, it is not possible to use a TPM to sign a CWT, but it =
is possible to use to sign a UCCS.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/GU1NBE3tGUD7f47SsREdYyKrQj8>
Subject: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi all,

I also looked at the use cases in the architecture draft and I believe ther=
e is room for improvement.

The use case in Section 3.1. "Network Endpoint Assessment". It lists many f=
eatures that, IMHO, are probably not provided by attestation (see recent di=
scussion on the SUIT mailing list). I would just focus on this aspect " Rem=
ote attestation is desired to prevent vulnerable or compromised devices fro=
m getting access to the network and potentially harming others." Don't over=
sell it.  (FWIW I would delete the second paragraph because the use of root=
 of trust is not useful in context of this use case.)

The use case for confidential computing in Section 3.2 with the "Confidenti=
al Machine Learning (ML) Model Protection" is fine.
Attestation allows me to trust the hardware so that I can put my code and m=
y data there so that the computation does not leak to others.

The added value of the "Confidential Data Retrieval" scenario is not clear =
to me. Yes, can you use confidential computing to prevent disclosing data o=
ther than machine learning models as well. If that's the idea of this addit=
ional scenario then I would suggest to delete Section 3.3 and rename Sectio=
n 3.2 to "Confidential Computing" and put an "for example" in front of mach=
ine learning data. I do, however, think that it makes sense to be specific =
in the use cases. You could also add a sentence to Section 3.2 and say some=
thing like: "This is an example use case for confidential computing." And p=
ut a link to the Confidential Computing Consortium website.

Section 3.4.  Critical Infrastructure Control is a bit too generic because =
it talks about authorized code and users. Attestation does not provide anyt=
hing about users. Try to be specific about what a device can do with attest=
ation that it cannot do without. Pick an example from a critical infrastruc=
ture.

Section 3.5. talks about the TEEP use case and you could mention that attes=
tation aims to ensure that the device has not been rooted, or does not run =
in an emulated environment to have a specific example of what attestation c=
ould provide us.

Section 3.6 "Hardware Watchdog" is something I have not heard about. The co=
ncept of a watchdog in embedded systems is well-known but it has a differen=
t meaning, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchdog_timer
Is there a reference to an article or something that indeed confirms that "=
malware that holds a device hostage and does not allow it to reboot to prev=
ent updates to be applied". Reading through the text makes me feel that you=
 made this up. (FWIW we had a researcher proposing such a remote watchdog b=
ut it didn't require attestation. It was never implemented and you can imme=
diately see that there are practical challenges...)

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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--_000_AM0PR08MB37168B75C592DA7892179957FA820AM0PR08MB3716eurp_
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Hi all

I have re-read the architecture document and IMHO it is still far too compl=
ex. It makes the reader believe that attestation is some rocket-science con=
cept, which it just isn't. After such a long time the document is unnecessa=
rily hard to read and understand.

Here is the story as I see it.

In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims together and then signs t=
hem. The device is the attester.
Then, this information is sent to another party, the relying party, which u=
ses this information for some kind of decision making.

Of course, there is some prior setup that has to happen (provisioning of ke=
ys during manufacturing) and some assumptions have to be made as well (atte=
station code on the device has to be well protected, code isolation being u=
sed, etc.).

Then, there is the a complex case where the relying party cannot use the re=
ceived information directly. This is most likely related to any form of sof=
tware measurements. If you send a hash of a bootloader to some relying part=
y you cannot really expect it to be used for anything. The reason the relyi=
ng party cannot use that information directly is because it does not know w=
hat software the device is really supposed to be running. Hence, there is a=
 need to consult another party (let's call it the verifier). The assumption=
 is that this party knows what the expected fingerprint is and hence what s=
oftware is running on the device.

That's all. There is not much more complexity to this topic.

So, where do all these terms come from? Appraisal policies, evidence, endor=
ser, ...

I would delete them and see whether the idea still gets across.

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have re-read the architecture document and IMHO it=
 is still far too complex. It makes the reader believe that attestation is =
some rocket-science concept, which it just isn&#8217;t. After such a long t=
ime the document is unnecessarily hard to
 read and understand. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here is the story as I see it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims to=
gether and then signs them. The device is the attester.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then, this information is sent to another party, the=
 relying party, which uses this information for some kind of decision makin=
g.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Of course, there is some prior setup that has to hap=
pen (provisioning of keys during manufacturing) and some assumptions have t=
o be made as well (attestation code on the device has to be well protected,=
 code isolation being used, etc.).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then, there is the a complex case where the relying =
party cannot use the received information directly. This is most likely rel=
ated to any form of software measurements. If you send a hash of a bootload=
er to some relying party you cannot
 really expect it to be used for anything. The reason the relying party can=
not use that information directly is because it does not know what software=
 the device is really supposed to be running. Hence, there is a need to con=
sult another party (let&#8217;s call it
 the verifier). The assumption is that this party knows what the expected f=
ingerprint is and hence what software is running on the device.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That&#8217;s all. There is not much more complexity =
to this topic. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, where do all these terms come from? Appraisal po=
licies, evidence, endorser, ...
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would delete them and see whether the idea still g=
ets across. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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</body>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Content-Type: text/plain


Thank you for your comments.

I believe that documents go from "too little" text, to a point where there is
now "too much" (oversell) text, and the feedback I'm hearing from you, is that we are
now on the too much side.

Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Section 3.6 "Hardware Watchdog" is something I have not heard
    > about. The concept of a watchdog in embedded systems is well-known but
    > it has a different meaning, see
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchdog_timer Is there a reference to an
    > article or something that indeed confirms that "malware that holds a
    > device hostage and does not allow it to reboot to prevent updates to be
    > applied". Reading through the text makes me feel that you made this
    > up. (FWIW we had a researcher proposing such a remote watchdog but it
    > didn't require attestation. It was never implemented and you can
    > immediately see that there are practical challenges...)

This situation comes from the desktop situation.

The machine has upgraded, and as soon as it would reboot, it would be safe,
but the malware keeps clicking "Cancel" on the "reboot now" dialog.
Applications reasonably can and should say, "No, do not reboot now",
but there needs to be a limit, and the use of a watchdog in a
hardware/firmware TPM module can do that.

It is *exactly* as in the embedded case (keep holding the switch down, or I
blow up), but the "reset watchdog" mechanism is no longer just poking some
hardware register, but rather, supplying some Attestation Result to it as to
health of system.

How can we rewrite this to make this clearer for you?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Michael

Thanks for the quick response.

Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use case. Is th=
is something people actually want to use in practice?
Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use cases (=
mostly dealing with crashing software).

Ciao
Hannes

Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Section 3.6 "Hardware Watchdog" is something I have not heard
    > about. The concept of a watchdog in embedded systems is well-known bu=
t
    > it has a different meaning, see
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchdog_timer Is there a reference to =
an
    > article or something that indeed confirms that "malware that holds a
    > device hostage and does not allow it to reboot to prevent updates to =
be
    > applied". Reading through the text makes me feel that you made this
    > up. (FWIW we had a researcher proposing such a remote watchdog but it
    > didn't require attestation. It was never implemented and you can
    > immediately see that there are practical challenges...)

This situation comes from the desktop situation.

The machine has upgraded, and as soon as it would reboot, it would be safe,=
 but the malware keeps clicking "Cancel" on the "reboot now" dialog.
Applications reasonably can and should say, "No, do not reboot now", but th=
ere needs to be a limit, and the use of a watchdog in a hardware/firmware T=
PM module can do that.

It is *exactly* as in the embedded case (keep holding the switch down, or I=
 blow up), but the "reset watchdog" mechanism is no longer just poking some=
 hardware register, but rather, supplying some Attestation Result to it as =
to health of system.

How can we rewrite this to make this clearer for you?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use
    > case. Is this something people actually want to use in practice?
    > Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use
    > cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).

We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.
It's not a constrained case.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in our domain

Ian


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Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use
    > case. Is this something people actually want to use in practice?
    > Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use
    > cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).

We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.
It's not a constrained case.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in our domain</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
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<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Ian<br>
</div>
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<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">-- <br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Dr. Ian Oliver</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Cybersecurity Research<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Nokia Bell Labs</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
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<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%;">
<b>From:</b> Michael Richardson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText"><br>
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a=
 made-up use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; case. Is this something people actually want to use=
 in practice?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with =
non-security use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).<br>
<br>
We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.<br>
It's not a constrained case.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca&gt;, Sandelman Software Wo=
rks<br>
&nbsp;-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/WUfwSjpn-ULAwU0j3RxosnGvpQE>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Ian,

can you provide a bit more details about what your domain is?

Ciao
Hannes

From: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04

Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in our domain

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.c=
om>> wrote:
    > Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use
    > case. Is this something people actually want to use in practice?
    > Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use
    > cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).

We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.
It's not a constrained case.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ian, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">can you provide a bit more details about what your d=
omain is?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;ian.=
oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Richardson &lt;mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca&gt;; Hannes Tsc=
hofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in o=
ur domain<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature">
<div>
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Cybersecurity Research<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Distinguished Member of Tec=
hnical Staff<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&#43;358 50 483 6237<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> Michael Richardso=
n<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04 <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a=
 made-up use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; case. Is this something people actually want to use=
 in practice?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with =
non-security use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).<br>
<br>
We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.<br>
It's not a constrained case.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43=
;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
&nbsp;-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
</body>
</html>

--_000_AM0PR08MB3716D0DCB33D556A0BFA6A6AFA820AM0PR08MB3716eurp_--


From nobody Wed Jun 10 04:54:06 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
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Hi Laurence,

> It seems better factoring to associate the security model with the use =
cases than with the data structure format.

There are many ways to (insert vegan version of =E2=80=9Cskin this =
cat=E2=80=9D).

Generally, the IESG has not been happy with defining protocols without =
discussing their security, so UCCS will need some security =
considerations.  The pure admonition =E2=80=9Cwrite up your security =
considerations=E2=80=9D makes a bad security considerations section.  =
Picking one use case (here: the one that motivates us to write this =
document now) seems like a good way to evoke the kinds of security =
considerations other application environments will have.

> It seems hard to anticipate the security models needed for future use =
cases.

Right, that=E2=80=99s why the text focuses on one usage environment.

> In the three RATS uses of UCCS (claims, endorsements, results), the =
characteristics of the security needed vary a lot and all three are not =
all covered here.

I don=E2=80=99t think we need to go as far as defining the security =
characteristics of those areas =E2=80=94 we do need to explain how =
adding UCCS to these areas adds/changed security considerations.

> The text doesn=E2=80=99t seem to anticipate securing UCCS with CMS or =
a TPM-based signing scheme. It focuses on TLS / Secure Channels.=20

Yes, that would be the one usage environment we are focusing on.

> The security of nested EATs seems better discussed in EAT.

That may very well be.
The main point here is that, for something communicated over the secure =
channel to inherit the authentication and authorization properties of =
that channel requires a strong relationship.  There is a difference =
between saying =E2=80=9CI saw Bob buy an apple=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMy =
neighbor told me he saw Bob buy an apple=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 the EAT =
encapsulation is the equivalent of =E2=80=9CMy neighbor told me=E2=80=9D.

> CWT is part of the establishment of the Verifier=E2=80=99s trust in an =
Attester. That topic requires Endorsements and seems better in the =
context of RATS architecture or related.=20

I=E2=80=99m sure that some form of architecture document can provide a =
refined view of this.

> All that said, I don=E2=80=99t think the section 3 security discussion =
is harmful, just that it may become outmoded and necessarily bypassed as =
the use cases fill in.

But that is true: the security considerations here are like the package =
insert for some medication =E2=80=94 you should read this, but you =
should also heed the instructions from your doctor (i.e., the standard =
that specified usage of UCCS in a specific usage environment) and read =
up on additional information, in particular about side effects with =
other medication (EAT, CMS, TPM).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de" <michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>, "Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)" <bsulzen@cisco.com>, "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, "tom.laffey@hpe.com" <tom.laffey@hpe.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:17:52 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Henk,         Michael,

Shwetha,   Bill,

Frank,        Tom,

Guy,

 

As authors of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created
a pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files> .  I am
proposing some fixes due to a number of concerns
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6>  I had about
the YANG model:

 

*	PCR numbers should be their own type, not a UINT8. PCRs should be
limited to [0..31]
*	We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG and IETF crypto
algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be introduced which we can
protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM construct.
*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.
*	The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name of "ALL". Instead
of "ALL" we should be able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based
TPMs if a specific TPM is not named in the RPC. 
*	We should add leaf for a unique 'certificate-name' is used. This
allows for a cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't
need to track node-ids. 
*	We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that
RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of that type are supported.
*	We should create new reusable groupings rather than repeat
definitions. 

If your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that
would be great.   I also think the netequip boot pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5>  can also be
integrated.

 

Thanks,

Eric

 


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Henk, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Michael,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>Shwetha,&nbsp; &nbsp;Bill,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Frank, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Tom,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Guy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As authors =
of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files">p=
ull request</a>.&nbsp; I am proposing some fixes due to a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6">numbe=
r of concerns</a> I had about the YANG model:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>PCR numbers should be their own type, not =
a UINT8. PCRs should be limited to [0..31]<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>We should use ENUMs instead of strings for =
TCG and IETF crypto algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be =
introduced which we can protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM =
construct.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line =
cards. Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm =
name]. This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. =
Instead the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>The YANG doctors will not let us have a =
TPM-Name of &quot;ALL&quot;. Instead of &quot;ALL&quot; we should be =
able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based TPMs if a specific =
TPM is not named in the RPC. <o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>We should add leaf for a unique <span =
style=3D'background:white'>'certificate-name' is used. This allows for a =
cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't need to =
track node-ids.</span> <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2;background:white'>We should have optional YANG features for =
TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that RPCs are not exposed when there are no such =
TPMs of that type are supported.<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l2 level1 lfo2;background:white'>We should create new reusable =
groupings rather than repeat definitions. <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If your guys have suggestions and improvements for =
this pull request, that would be great.&nbsp;&nbsp; I also think the <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5">netequi=
p boot pull request</a> can also be integrated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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------=_NextPart_000_03D8_01D63F21.1DAC9A90--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:13:15 +0000
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Of general interest in this draft the definition of a Trustworthiness Vector 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02#section-3.2> 
which contains a ordered list of Trustworthiness Levels.  This vector is 
returned within Attestation Results, and is actionable by a Relying Party.



Eric



-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 3:59 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt





A new version of I-D, draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt

has been successfully submitted by Eric Voit and posted to the IETF 
repository.



Name:                  draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

Revision:              02

Title:                     Trusted Path Routing

Document date:               2020-06-10

Group:                  Individual Submission

Pages:                  21

URL: 
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt> 
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt

Status: 
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing/> 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing/

Htmlized: 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02> 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02

Htmlized: 
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing> 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing

Diff: 
<https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02> 
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02



Abstract:

   There are end-users who believe encryption technologies like IPSec

   alone are insufficient to protect the confidentiality of their highly

   sensitive traffic flows.  These end-users want their flows to

   traverse devices which have been freshly appraised and verified.

   This specification describes Trusted Path Routing.  Trusted Path

   Routing protects sensitive flows as they transit a network by

   forwarding traffic to/from sensitive subnets across network devices

   recently appraised as trustworthy.









Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission 
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.



The IETF Secretariat






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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Of general interest in this draft the definition of =
a <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-=
02#section-3.2">Trustworthiness Vector</a> which contains a ordered list =
of Trustworthiness Levels. =C2=A0This vector is returned within =
Attestation Results, and is actionable by a Relying Party.=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: =
internet-drafts@ietf.org &lt;internet-drafts@ietf.org&gt; <br>Sent: =
Wednesday, June 10, 2020 3:59 PM<br>To: Eric Voit (evoit) =
&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;<br>Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt</p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>A new =
version of I-D, =
draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>has been successfully submitted by Eric Voit and =
posted to the IETF repository.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Revision:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
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class=3DMsoPlainText>Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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Trusted Path Routing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Document =
date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2020-06-10<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual =
Submission<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
21<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path=
-routing-02.txt"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02.txt</span></a><o:p></=
o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-rou=
ting/"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-=
02"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-pat=
h-routing"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing</span></a><o:p></o:p></=
p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voit-rats-trusted-path-=
routing-02"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/rfcd=
iff?url2=3Ddraft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02</span></a><o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Abstract:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are end-users who believe =
encryption technologies like IPSec<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 alone are insufficient to protect the =
confidentiality of their highly<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 sensitive traffic flows.=C2=A0 These =
end-users want their flows to<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 traverse devices which have been =
freshly appraised and verified.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 This specification describes Trusted =
Path Routing.=C2=A0 Trusted Path<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Routing protects sensitive flows as =
they transit a network by<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 forwarding traffic to/from sensitive =
subnets across network devices<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0 recently appraised as =
trustworthy.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText> =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Please =
note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission =
until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>The =
IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Architecture
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Hi Kathleen, Michael,
hi list,

as agreed on in the last editor's meeting, I just created 7 issues and a 
pull request from Kathleen's comments (Part I).

They can be found (and further addressed) here:

> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/95

and

> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/96
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/97
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/98
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/99
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/100
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/101
> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/102


Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

On 22.05.20 00:36, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
>> I took some time to review the current version of the architecture document
>> and have some comments and suggestions.Â  The comments are from the editor's
>> version.Â  Please do post early and often updates to the IETF draft
>> repository.Â  Version numbers do not matter, it's okay to have a large
>> number :-)
> 
> We should have done another version this month.
> I don't know if the "editor" version really works: I personally seldom get
> the MT makefiles to do the right thing.
> 
> I will arbitrarily do that now with a new version.
> We have
>     https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/89
> 
> which contains some small fixes to the terminology, and the Roles section has
> evolved in two ways and need to pick between them.
> 
> We also have:
>      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/87
> and https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/88
> The later has a long conversation/debate which might be worth bringing to the
> list.  We managed to commit a number of long-standing (3-6 week long) pull
> requests on Tuesday though.
> 


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:52:34 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH7_1-62FhyGyoSQge2Mc53Ke8pZJ403oAJCQaRr+__e-w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, rats@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Architecture
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Thank you!

On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:29 AM Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> Hi Kathleen, Michael,
> hi list,
>
> as agreed on in the last editor's meeting, I just created 7 issues and a
> pull request from Kathleen's comments (Part I).
>
> They can be found (and further addressed) here:
>
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/95
>
> and
>
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/96
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/97
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/98
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/99
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/100
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/101
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/102
>
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
> On 22.05.20 00:36, Michael Richardson wrote:
> >
> >> I took some time to review the current version of the architecture
> document
> >> and have some comments and suggestions.  The comments are from the
> editor's
> >> version.  Please do post early and often updates to the IETF draft
> >> repository.  Version numbers do not matter, it's okay to have a large
> >> number :-)
> >
> > We should have done another version this month.
> > I don't know if the "editor" version really works: I personally seldom
> get
> > the MT makefiles to do the right thing.
> >
> > I will arbitrarily do that now with a new version.
> > We have
> >     https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/89
> >
> > which contains some small fixes to the terminology, and the Roles
> section has
> > evolved in two ways and need to pick between them.
> >
> > We also have:
> >      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/87
> > and https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/88
> > The later has a long conversation/debate which might be worth bringing
> to the
> > list.  We managed to commit a number of long-standing (3-6 week long)
> pull
> > requests on Tuesday though.
> >
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000007e28ec05a7d01ead
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you!</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:29 AM Henk Birkholz &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">Hi Kathleen, Michael,<br>
hi list,<br>
<br>
as agreed on in the last editor&#39;s meeting, I just created 7 issues and =
a <br>
pull request from Kathleen&#39;s comments (Part I).<br>
<br>
They can be found (and further addressed) here:<br>
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/95" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architect=
ure/pull/95</a><br>
<br>
and<br>
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/96" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architect=
ure/issues/96</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/97" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architect=
ure/issues/97</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/98" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architect=
ure/issues/98</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/99" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architect=
ure/issues/99</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/100" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architec=
ture/issues/100</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/101" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architec=
ture/issues/101</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/102" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architec=
ture/issues/102</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 22.05.20 00:36, Michael Richardson wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I took some time to review the current version of the architecture=
 document<br>
&gt;&gt; and have some comments and suggestions.=C2=A0 The comments are fro=
m the editor&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt; version.=C2=A0 Please do post early and often updates to the IETF =
draft<br>
&gt;&gt; repository.=C2=A0 Version numbers do not matter, it&#39;s okay to =
have a large<br>
&gt;&gt; number :-)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We should have done another version this month.<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t know if the &quot;editor&quot; version really works: I per=
sonally seldom get<br>
&gt; the MT makefiles to do the right thing.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I will arbitrarily do that now with a new version.<br>
&gt; We have<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architec=
ture/pull/89" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-=
rats-wg/architecture/pull/89</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; which contains some small fixes to the terminology, and the Roles sect=
ion has<br>
&gt; evolved in two ways and need to pick between them.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We also have:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/archite=
cture/pull/87" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf=
-rats-wg/architecture/pull/87</a><br>
&gt; and <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/88" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/archite=
cture/pull/88</a><br>
&gt; The later has a long conversation/debate which might be worth bringing=
 to the<br>
&gt; list.=C2=A0 We managed to commit a number of long-standing (3-6 week l=
ong) pull<br>
&gt; requests on Tuesday though.<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

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Subject: [Rats] Fwd: Nomcom 2020-2021 Second Call For Volunteers
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Please consider volunteering for this year=E2=80=99s NomCom.  We need a stro=
ng pool of volunteers for the selection process.

Best regards,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my mobile device

Begin forwarded message:

> From: NomCom Chair 2020 <nomcom-chair-2020@ietf.org>
> Date: June 10, 2020 at 2:55:33 PM EDT
> To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Nomcom 2020-2021 Second Call For Volunteers
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFThis is the second sending of the call for volunteers for the 202=
0-2021 NomCom.
>=20
> I wanted to mention a few updates from the previous email (sent 2 weeks ag=
o):
> - I've fixed the URL at the bottom of the email to point to https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/nomcom/2020/ instead of /2019/. This was a test to see if any=
one was paying attention. Apparently, some people were. ;)
> - The IETF 108 registration form includes a checkbox that will let you vol=
unteer. You can use this instead of emailing me, when you register for IETF 1=
08.
> - I currently have 39 volunteers. Last year had 149. I need more volunteer=
s!
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> The IETF NomCom appoints people to fill the open slots on the LLC, IETF Tr=
ust, the IAB, and the IESG.
>=20
> Ten voting members for the NomCom are selected in a verifiably random way f=
rom a pool of volunteers. The more volunteers, the better chance we have of c=
hoosing a random yet representative cross section of the IETF population.
>=20
> The details of the operation of the NomCom can be found in BCP 10 (RFC 871=
3). RFC 3797 details the selection algorithm.
>=20
> Special for this year (and only this year), we also have RFC 8788 (one-off=
 update to RFC 8713 / BCP 10) to tell us who is eligible to volunteer:
>=20
>      Members of the IETF community must have attended at least three of
>      the last five in-person IETF meetings in order to volunteer.
>=20
>      The five meetings are the five most recent in-person meetings that
>      ended prior to the date on which the solicitation for NomCom
>      volunteers was submitted for distribution to the IETF community.
>      Because no IETF 107 in-person meeting was held, for the 2020-2021
>      Nominating Committee those five meetings are IETFs
>        102 [Montreal, Canada; July 2018],
>        103 [Bangkok, Thailand; November 2018],
>        104 [Prague, Czech Republic; March 2019],
>        105 [Montreal, Canada; July 2019], and=20
>        106 [Singapore; November 2019].
>=20
> Keep in mind that eligibility is based on in-person attendance at the five=
 listed meetings. You can check your eligibility at: https://www.ietf.org/re=
gistration/nomcom.py.
>=20
> If you qualify, please volunteer. Before you decide to volunteer, please r=
emember that anyone appointed to this NomCom will not be considered as a can=
didate for any of the positions that the 2020 - 2021 NomCom is responsible f=
or filling.
>=20
> People commonly volunteer by ticking the box on IETF registration forms. T=
he IETF 106 form did not ask whether people were willing to volunteer. IETF 1=
07 did ask, but all those registrations were canceled. I have asked the Secr=
etariat if it is possible to get the list if volunteers from canceled IETF 1=
07 registrations. If that list is available, I will contact all who are veri=
fied as eligible. But given the uncertainty of this process, I would encoura=
ge people to volunteer directly (see the bottom of this email for instructio=
ns). Thank you for volunteering!
>=20
> The list of people and posts whose terms end with the March 2021 IETF meet=
ing, and thus the positions for which this NomCom is responsible, are
>=20
> IETF Trust:
>    Joel Halpern
>=20
> LLC:
>    Maja Andjelkovic
>=20
> IAB:
>    Jari Arkko
>    Jeff Tantsura
>    Mark Nottingham
>    Stephen Farrell
>    Wes Hardaker
>    Zhenbin Li
>=20
> IESG:
>    Alissa Cooper, IETF Chair/GEN AD
>    Alvaro Retana, RTG AD
>    Barry Leiba, ART AD
>    Deborah Brungard, RTG AD
>    =C3=89ric Vyncke, INT AD
>    Magnus Westerlund, TSV AD
>    Roman Danyliw, SEC AD
>    Warren Kumari, OPS AD
>=20
> All appointments are for 2 years. The Routing area has 3 ADs and the Gener=
al area has 1; all other areas have 2 ADs. Thus, all areas (that have more t=
han one AD) have at least one continuing AD.
>=20
> The primary activity for this NomCom will begin in July 2020 and should be=
 completed in January 2021.  The NomCom will have regularly scheduled confer=
ence calls to ensure progress. There will be activities to collect requireme=
nts from the community, review candidate questionnaires, review feedback fro=
m community members about candidates, and talk to candidates.
>=20
> While being a NomCom member does require some time commitment it is also a=
 very rewarding experience.
>=20
> As a member of the NomCom it is very important that you be willing and abl=
e to attend either videoconference or in-person meetings (which may not happ=
en) during 14-20 November (IETF 109 - Bangkok) to conduct interviews. Videoc=
onference attendance will be supported whether or not there are in-person me=
etings. Orientation and setting of the NomCom schedule will be done by video=
conference during the week 20-24 July (exact time and date to be determined a=
fter NomCom membership is finalized on July 12), the week prior to IETF 108.=
  Being at IETF 110 (Prague) is not essential.
>=20
> Please volunteer by sending me an email before 23:59 UTC June 24, 2020, as=
 follows:
>=20
> To: nomcom-chair-2020@ietf.org
> Subject: NomCom 2020-21 Volunteer
>=20
> Please include the following information in the email body:
>=20
> Your Full Name:=20
>    // as you write it on the IETF registration form
>=20
> Current Primary Affiliation:
>    // Typically what goes in the Company field
>    // in the IETF Registration Form
>=20
> Emails:=20
>   // All email addresses used to register for the past 5 IETF meetings
>   // Preferred email address first
>=20
> Telephone:=20
>    // For confirmation if selected
>=20
> You should expect an email response from me within 5 business days stating=
 whether or not you are qualified.  If you don't receive this response, plea=
se re-send your email with the tag "RESEND"" added to the subject line.
>=20
> If you are not yet sure if you would like to volunteer, please consider th=
at NomCom members play a very important role in shaping the leadership of th=
e IETF.  Questions by email or voice are welcome. Volunteering for the NomCo=
m is a great way to contribute to the IETF!
>=20
> You can find a detailed timeline on the NomCom web site at:
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2020/
>=20
> I will be publishing a more detailed target timetable, as well as details o=
f the randomness seeds to be used for the RFC 3797 selection process, within=
 the next few weeks.
>=20
> Thank you!
>=20
> Barbara Stark
> bs7652 at att dot com
> nomcom-chair-2020 at ietf dot org
>=20

--Apple-Mail-13E53175-6E27-4DDA-B4C9-BC8613D3A4D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Please consider volunteering for this year=E2=
=80=99s NomCom. &nbsp;We need a strong pool of volunteers for the selection p=
rocess.<div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen&nbsp;<br><br><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my mobile device</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Begin for=
warded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><b>From:=
</b> NomCom Chair 2020 &lt;nomcom-chair-2020@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Date:</b> Ju=
ne 10, 2020 at 2:55:33 PM EDT<br><b>To:</b> IETF Announcement List &lt;ietf-=
announce@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> ietf@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Nomc=
om 2020-2021 Second Call For Volunteers</b><br><br></div></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<span>This is the second sendi=
ng of the call for volunteers for the 2020-2021 NomCom.</span><br><span></sp=
an><br><span>I wanted to mention a few updates from the previous email (sent=
 2 weeks ago):</span><br><span> - I've fixed the URL at the bottom of the em=
ail to point to https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2020/ instead of /2019/.=
 This was a test to see if anyone was paying attention. Apparently, some peo=
ple were. ;)</span><br><span> - The IETF 108 registration form includes a ch=
eckbox that will let you volunteer. You can use this instead of emailing me,=
 when you register for IETF 108.</span><br><span> - I currently have 39 volu=
nteers. Last year had 149. I need more volunteers!</span><br><span>---------=
------------------------------------------------------------------------</sp=
an><br><span>The IETF NomCom appoints people to fill the open slots on the L=
LC, IETF Trust, the IAB, and the IESG.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Ten v=
oting members for the NomCom are selected in a verifiably random way from a p=
ool of volunteers. The more volunteers, the better chance we have of choosin=
g a random yet representative cross section of the IETF population.</span><b=
r><span></span><br><span>The details of the operation of the NomCom can be f=
ound in BCP 10 (RFC 8713). RFC 3797 details the selection algorithm.</span><=
br><span></span><br><span>Special for this year (and only this year), we als=
o have RFC 8788 (one-off update to RFC 8713 / BCP 10) to tell us who is elig=
ible to volunteer:</span><br><span></span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Members of the IETF community must have attended at least three of</s=
pan><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the last five in-person IETF me=
etings in order to volunteer.</span><br><span></span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The five meetings are the five most recent in-person meeti=
ngs that</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ended prior to the d=
ate on which the solicitation for NomCom</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;volunteers was submitted for distribution to the IETF community.=
</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because no IETF 107 in-perso=
n meeting was held, for the 2020-2021</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Nominating Committee those five meetings are IETFs</span><br><span>=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;102 [Montreal, Canada; July 2018]=
,</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;103 [Bangkok, T=
hailand; November 2018],</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;104 [Prague, Czech Republic; March 2019],</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;105 [Montreal, Canada; July 2019], and </sp=
an><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;106 [Singapore; Nove=
mber 2019].</span><br><span></span><br><span>Keep in mind that eligibility i=
s based on in-person attendance at the five listed meetings. You can check y=
our eligibility at: https://www.ietf.org/registration/nomcom.py.</span><br><=
span></span><br><span>If you qualify, please volunteer. Before you decide to=
 volunteer, please remember that anyone appointed to this NomCom will not be=
 considered as a candidate for any of the positions that the 2020 - 2021 Nom=
Com is responsible for filling.</span><br><span></span><br><span>People comm=
only volunteer by ticking the box on IETF registration forms. The IETF 106 f=
orm did not ask whether people were willing to volunteer. IETF 107 did ask, b=
ut all those registrations were canceled. I have asked the Secretariat if it=
 is possible to get the list if volunteers from canceled IETF 107 registrati=
ons. If that list is available, I will contact all who are verified as eligi=
ble. But given the uncertainty of this process, I would encourage people to v=
olunteer directly (see the bottom of this email for instructions). Thank you=
 for volunteering!</span><br><span></span><br><span>The list of people and p=
osts whose terms end with the March 2021 IETF meeting, and thus the position=
s for which this NomCom is responsible, are</span><br><span></span><br><span=
>IETF Trust:</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Joel Halpern</span><br><span=
></span><br><span>LLC:</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Maja Andjelkovic</=
span><br><span></span><br><span>IAB:</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jari=
 Arkko</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff Tantsura</span><br><span> &nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Mark Nottingham</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Stephen Fa=
rrell</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wes Hardaker</span><br><span> &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;Zhenbin Li</span><br><span></span><br><span>IESG:</span><br><sp=
an> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Alissa Cooper, IETF Chair/GEN AD</span><br><span> &nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;Alvaro Retana, RTG AD</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Barry=
 Leiba, ART AD</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Deborah Brungard, RTG AD</=
span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=C3=89ric Vyncke, INT AD</span><br><span> &=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Magnus Westerlund, TSV AD</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Roman Danyliw, SEC AD</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Warren Kumari, OP=
S AD</span><br><span></span><br><span>All appointments are for 2 years. The R=
outing area has 3 ADs and the General area has 1; all other areas have 2 ADs=
. Thus, all areas (that have more than one AD) have at least one continuing A=
D.</span><br><span></span><br><span>The primary activity for this NomCom wil=
l begin in July 2020 and should be completed in January 2021. &nbsp;The NomC=
om will have regularly scheduled conference calls to ensure progress. There w=
ill be activities to collect requirements from the community, review candida=
te questionnaires, review feedback from community members about candidates, a=
nd talk to candidates.</span><br><span></span><br><span>While being a NomCom=
 member does require some time commitment it is also a very rewarding experi=
ence.</span><br><span></span><br><span>As a member of the NomCom it is very i=
mportant that you be willing and able to attend either videoconference or in=
-person meetings (which may not happen) during 14-20 November (IETF 109 - Ba=
ngkok) to conduct interviews. Videoconference attendance will be supported w=
hether or not there are in-person meetings. Orientation and setting of the N=
omCom schedule will be done by videoconference during the week 20-24 July (e=
xact time and date to be determined after NomCom membership is finalized on J=
uly 12), the week prior to IETF 108. &nbsp;Being at IETF 110 (Prague) is not=
 essential.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Please volunteer by sending me a=
n email before 23:59 UTC June 24, 2020, as follows:</span><br><span></span><=
br><span>To: nomcom-chair-2020@ietf.org</span><br><span>Subject: NomCom 2020=
-21 Volunteer</span><br><span></span><br><span>Please include the following i=
nformation in the email body:</span><br><span></span><br><span>Your Full Nam=
e: </span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;// as you write it on the IETF regist=
ration form</span><br><span></span><br><span>Current Primary Affiliation:</s=
pan><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;// Typically what goes in the Company field=
</span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;// in the IETF Registration Form</span><=
br><span></span><br><span>Emails: </span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;// All email=
 addresses used to register for the past 5 IETF meetings</span><br><span> &n=
bsp;&nbsp;// Preferred email address first</span><br><span></span><br><span>=
Telephone: </span><br><span> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;// For confirmation if select=
ed</span><br><span></span><br><span>You should expect an email response from=
 me within 5 business days stating whether or not you are qualified. &nbsp;I=
f you don't receive this response, please re-send your email with the tag "R=
ESEND"" added to the subject line.</span><br><span></span><br><span>If you a=
re not yet sure if you would like to volunteer, please consider that NomCom m=
embers play a very important role in shaping the leadership of the IETF. &nb=
sp;Questions by email or voice are welcome. Volunteering for the NomCom is a=
 great way to contribute to the IETF!</span><br><span></span><br><span>You c=
an find a detailed timeline on the NomCom web site at:</span><br><span> &nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2020/</span><br><span></sp=
an><br><span>I will be publishing a more detailed target timetable, as well a=
s details of the randomness seeds to be used for the RFC 3797 selection proc=
ess, within the next few weeks.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Thank you!<=
/span><br><span></span><br><span>Barbara Stark</span><br><span>bs7652 at att=
 dot com</span><br><span>nomcom-chair-2020 at ietf dot org</span><br><span><=
/span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-13E53175-6E27-4DDA-B4C9-BC8613D3A4D0--


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From: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-shaw-rats-rear-00.txt
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From nobody Fri Jun 12 13:34:44 2020
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
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Still seems like standardizing tails generally and then going into =
detail on how to use a tail with poodles when there are many other kinds =
of dogs out there.  And because of lack of context (lack of normative =
reference to EAT and RATS architecture) it is not the best description =
of the poodle use case.

Note there is use of RATS architecture terms in this UCCS document =
(attesting environment, endorsement).

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 4:53 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
>> It seems better factoring to associate the security model with the =
use cases than with the data structure format.
>=20
> There are many ways to (insert vegan version of =E2=80=9Cskin this =
cat=E2=80=9D).
>=20
> Generally, the IESG has not been happy with defining protocols without =
discussing their security, so UCCS will need some security =
considerations.  The pure admonition =E2=80=9Cwrite up your security =
considerations=E2=80=9D makes a bad security considerations section.  =
Picking one use case (here: the one that motivates us to write this =
document now) seems like a good way to evoke the kinds of security =
considerations other application environments will have.

CWT has pretty minimal security considerations. UCCS goes into security =
discussion beyond CWT, like the use of the TEE to protect keys.

>=20
>> It seems hard to anticipate the security models needed for future use =
cases.
>=20
> Right, that=E2=80=99s why the text focuses on one usage environment.
>=20
>> In the three RATS uses of UCCS (claims, endorsements, results), the =
characteristics of the security needed vary a lot and all three are not =
all covered here.
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t think we need to go as far as defining the security =
characteristics of those areas =E2=80=94 we do need to explain how =
adding UCCS to these areas adds/changed security considerations.

So, the one use case that is the focus of this document is RATS =
attester->verify conveyance? That should be stated explicitly and the =
lack of coverage for the use with endorsements and attestation results =
should be called out.=20

>> The text doesn=E2=80=99t seem to anticipate securing UCCS with CMS or =
a TPM-based signing scheme. It focuses on TLS / Secure Channels.=20
>=20
> Yes, that would be the one usage environment we are focusing on.

So maybe call out this narrow focus and lack of coverage for CMS and =
such?

>> CWT is part of the establishment of the Verifier=E2=80=99s trust in =
an Attester. That topic requires Endorsements and seems better in the =
context of RATS architecture or related.=20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sure that some form of architecture document can provide a =
refined view of this.

So should UCCS discuss Endorsements as that is a key part of securing =
conveyance from attester->verifier?

>=20
>> All that said, I don=E2=80=99t think the section 3 security =
discussion is harmful, just that it may become outmoded and necessarily =
bypassed as the use cases fill in.
>=20
> But that is true: the security considerations here are like the =
package insert for some medication =E2=80=94 you should read this, but =
you should also heed the instructions from your doctor (i.e., the =
standard that specified usage of UCCS in a specific usage environment) =
and read up on additional information, in particular about side effects =
with other medication (EAT, CMS, TPM).

I think I=E2=80=99d call EAT and RATS diseases for which UCCS is a =
medication. :-)

UCCS usually needs pairing with meds like TLS, IPsec, CMS and TPM =
signing.

(Not really sure which disease CWT was invented for as I=E2=80=99m not =
so familiar with ACE, OAuth and such)

So the package insert is for one specific disease when the medication is =
good for others we know of today. The insert is only partial information =
for that disease and you must talk Dr. Birkholz before you take it.


I think I=E2=80=99ve said pretty much everything I have to say on this =
and still think same - it is not harmful, but likely to be outmoded.

LL





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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: draft-moran-suit-mud@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
cc: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, opsawg@ietf.org, rats@ietf.org, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: [Rats] draft-moran-suit-mud, EAT and MUD
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hi, I read draft-moran-suit-mud today.
It would naturally fall into a MUD WG if we had that.
As it is, I have no idea where to discuss this, and thus another shotgun.
I gather the mailman deletes my Reply-To suggestions.

I feel that this document should be adopted and the details filed in, but I
have no idea what WG it belongs in given the current state of things.
{It totally fits into the IoT lifecycle security WG I had proposed}

I knew it was around since it was talked about at the Hackathon a bunch, but
I hadn't read the result until today.

If you use Hypothesis my comments are at:
  https://hyp.is/go?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-moran-suit-mud-00.html&group=__world__
I'm not sure what that does if you don't have the plugin installed.
I'd prefer to write them as a pull request since they are mostly suggestions
on fixing some wording rather than any kind of substantive request for
changes.

Substantive comments:
  "At the time of onboarding, devices report their manifest in use to the MUD
  manager."

so I think that we will need to detail this!!!
When using an IDevID based onboarding system (BRSKI/BRSKI-TEEP/BRSKI-AE or
EAP-NOOB with some certificate based system) then the MUD certificate OID is available.
But, that's not the manifest of the software currently running, and it would
not be reasonable to embed that into the IDevID for the reasons I explain at:
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-richardson-opsawg-mud-acceptable-urls-00#section-2

More interesting is that you are requesting:
     Each time a device is updated, rebooted, or otherwise substantially
     changed, it will execute an attestation.
     Among other claims in the Entity Attestation Token (EAT)
     [I-D.ietf-rats-eat], the device will report its software digest(s),
     configuration digest(s), primary manifest URI, and primary manifest
     digest to the MUD manager.

Well, that attestation is actually ideal for use during onboarding as well.

It seems to me that the path of trust should go like:

   1) (Manufacturer IDevID PKI) -> IDevID.
   2) IDevID   -> "generic" MUD file  (signed by key from Manufacturer PKI <%>)
   3) MUD file -> identifies key that signs firmware manifests
   4) SUIT MANIFEST -> "specific" (per version) MUD file

I had previous suggested that the SBOM be attached to the per-version MUD
file, but I am not so sure anymore.

Note that the EAT described above would be *Evidence* (not Attestation
Results), per the architecture.  It would be signed by the IDevID in <2>.

Finally, if you didn't see my message to secdispatch about IDevID.
  https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/Hqe1lHG2wnW_9NxJLazEYbmGYN0/

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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--=-=-=--


From nobody Sun Jun 14 14:27:41 2020
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 14:27:34 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, rats@ietf.org, "jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-birkholz-rats-uccs-01.txt
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 01:53:57PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> Hi Laurence,
> 
> > It seems better factoring to associate the security model with the use cases than with the data structure format.
> 
> There are many ways to (insert vegan version of â€œskin this catâ€�).
> 
> Generally, the IESG has not been happy with defining protocols without discussing their security, so UCCS will need some security considerations.  The pure admonition â€œwrite up your security considerationsâ€� makes a bad security considerations section.  Picking one use case (here: the one that motivates us to write this document now) seems like a good way to evoke the kinds of security considerations other application environments will have.

Depending on the IESG, you may also get asked to mention situations that
could cause big problems in use cases other than the one being considered,
even if they are non-issues for the specific use case in question, as a way
to avoid potential "gotcha"s for the future documents that provide
alternative use cases/analyses.

-Ben


From nobody Sun Jun 14 14:30:16 2020
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Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 14:30:06 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 08:13:15PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Of general interest in this draft the definition of a Trustworthiness Vector 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02#section-3.2> 
> which contains a ordered list of Trustworthiness Levels.  This vector is 
> returned within Attestation Results, and is actionable by a Relying Party.

I wonder if this usage could be syncrhonized with the RFC 8485 "Vector of
Trust".

-Ben


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02
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Subject: Re: [Rats] New Version Notification for draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02
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Hi Ben,

> From: Benjamin Kaduk. June 14, 2020 5:30 PM
> 
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 08:13:15PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > Of general interest in this draft the definition of a Trustworthiness
> > Vector
> > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02#s
> > ection-3.2> which contains a ordered list of Trustworthiness Levels.
> > This vector is returned within Attestation Results, and is actionable
> > by a Relying Party.
> 
> I wonder if this usage could be syncrhonized with the RFC 8485 "Vector of
> Trust".

Thanks for pointing this out, I had not seen it. And it is interesting.  A
few initial thoughts...

(1) The universe of RFC8485 Component Dimensions does have a partial overlap
with my draft beyond the reuse of the 'vector'.   For example Identity
proofing and assertion presentation are things RATS cares about.  RATS also
cares about 'credential' lifecycle.  

(2) There are many significant domain of claims related to attestation which
are not covered in RFC8485.    E.g.:
(a) whole categories of appraisal assertions such as 'hw-authentic',
'boot-verified' or 'file-blacklisted' would need brand new 'component
dimensions'.   (Note: RFC8485 does allow other RFCs to grow additional
contexts, so perhaps this would be ok, this is of assuming someone is
willing to steward this language across many domains.)
(b) The lifecycle of Attestation Results beyond credentials quite important
with RATS.

(3) RFC8485 suggests formal codes for the level of assurance of assertions
being made.  This would mean that the language of Attestation Results should
be very rich.  In fact it should be far richer that the small handful of
simple human-understandable identities which I proposed in my draft.

With this in mind, I have generalized your question to be: how formal should
the language of Attestation Results be?   In the end, it wouldn't be too
hard to map my draft's YANG identities into *new/extended* RFC8485 vector
constructs.   But I am not yet able to see lots of immediate value.  

The first question I need to look at from the perspective of
routers/switches is how useful it would be to have an expandable standard
taxonomy and encoding for Appraisal Results.  An early guess would be that
someone who has open source code/expertise in formally expressing Appraisal
Results would be better positioned to see if this might be worthy of a draft
submission.  

Or said another way: if somebody has the expertise and desire to drive an
IETF-wide appraisal results language beyond the RFC8485 starting point, I
would happily map my very simple constructs into that language.

Thanks,
Eric


> -Ben

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From nobody Mon Jun 15 16:12:09 2020
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:11:59 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Hi Eric,

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:26:36PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> > From: Benjamin Kaduk. June 14, 2020 5:30 PM
> > 
> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 08:13:15PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > > Of general interest in this draft the definition of a Trustworthiness
> > > Vector
> > > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-02#s
> > > ection-3.2> which contains a ordered list of Trustworthiness Levels.
> > > This vector is returned within Attestation Results, and is actionable
> > > by a Relying Party.
> > 
> > I wonder if this usage could be syncrhonized with the RFC 8485 "Vector of
> > Trust".
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out, I had not seen it. And it is interesting.  A
> few initial thoughts...
> 
> (1) The universe of RFC8485 Component Dimensions does have a partial overlap
> with my draft beyond the reuse of the 'vector'.   For example Identity
> proofing and assertion presentation are things RATS cares about.  RATS also
> cares about 'credential' lifecycle.  
> 
> (2) There are many significant domain of claims related to attestation which
> are not covered in RFC8485.    E.g.:
> (a) whole categories of appraisal assertions such as 'hw-authentic',
> 'boot-verified' or 'file-blacklisted' would need brand new 'component
> dimensions'.   (Note: RFC8485 does allow other RFCs to grow additional
> contexts, so perhaps this would be ok, this is of assuming someone is
> willing to steward this language across many domains.)

>From memory, I think it even encourages such growth, not just allowing them.

> (b) The lifecycle of Attestation Results beyond credentials quite important
> with RATS.
> 
> (3) RFC8485 suggests formal codes for the level of assurance of assertions
> being made.  This would mean that the language of Attestation Results should
> be very rich.  In fact it should be far richer that the small handful of
> simple human-understandable identities which I proposed in my draft.
> 
> With this in mind, I have generalized your question to be: how formal should
> the language of Attestation Results be?   In the end, it wouldn't be too
> hard to map my draft's YANG identities into *new/extended* RFC8485 vector
> constructs.   But I am not yet able to see lots of immediate value.  

That's fair.  I certainly don't have an answer in mind, myself :)

> The first question I need to look at from the perspective of
> routers/switches is how useful it would be to have an expandable standard
> taxonomy and encoding for Appraisal Results.  An early guess would be that
> someone who has open source code/expertise in formally expressing Appraisal
> Results would be better positioned to see if this might be worthy of a draft
> submission.  
> 
> Or said another way: if somebody has the expertise and desire to drive an
> IETF-wide appraisal results language beyond the RFC8485 starting point, I
> would happily map my very simple constructs into that language.

Understood.  Thanks for reading and thinking about it!

-Ben


From nobody Mon Jun 15 18:37:32 2020
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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Hi Hannes,

I think readability of the document could be improved and maybe some =
simplification would be OK, but I generally think most of the core =
entities and messages make sense.


> On Jun 9, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all
> =20
> I have re-read the architecture document and IMHO it is still far too =
complex. It makes the reader believe that attestation is some =
rocket-science concept, which it just isn=E2=80=99t. After such a long =
time the document is unnecessarily hard to read and understand.=20
> =20
> Here is the story as I see it.
> =20
> In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims together and then =
signs them. The device is the attester.
> Then, this information is sent to another party, the relying party, =
which uses this information for some kind of decision making.

Evidence is just the name for =E2=80=9Cthis information=E2=80=9D.

> =20
> Of course, there is some prior setup that has to happen (provisioning =
of keys during manufacturing) and some assumptions have to be made as =
well (attestation code on the device has to be well protected, code =
isolation being used, etc.).

Endorsements are the mechanism by which this happens.

> =20
> Then, there is the a complex case where the relying party cannot use =
the received information directly. This is most likely related to any =
form of software measurements. If you send a hash of a bootloader to =
some relying party you cannot really expect it to be used for anything. =
The reason the relying party cannot use that information directly is =
because it does not know what software the device is really supposed to =
be running. Hence, there is a need to consult another party (let=E2=80=99s=
 call it the verifier). The assumption is that this party knows what the =
expected fingerprint is and hence what software is running on the =
device.

Which is why the terms Verifier and Results are used.

> =20
> That=E2=80=99s all. There is not much more complexity to this topic. =20=


I personally would be happy without the Owners and the Appraisal =
Policies in the architecture as they seem obviously implied, but not =
enough to ask they be removed.=20

> =20
> So, where do all these terms come from? Appraisal policies, evidence, =
endorser, ...
> =20
> I would delete them and see whether the idea still gets across.

I think more clear writing would help.

(We could put text in https://www.scribens.com and look at the Flesch =
and Gunning Fog indexes for readability under statistics)

LL

> =20
> Ciao
> Hannes
> =20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you. =
_______________________________________________
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--Apple-Mail=_94B482FA-AA4C-49C8-9A46-17EAF7BDA12B
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Hannes,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
readability of the document could be improved and maybe some =
simplification would be OK, but I generally think most of the core =
entities and messages make sense.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 9, 2020, at 12:13 AM, =
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
all<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I have =
re-read the architecture document and IMHO it is still far too complex. =
It makes the reader believe that attestation is some rocket-science =
concept, which it just isn=E2=80=99t. After such a long time the =
document is unnecessarily hard to read and understand.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Here is =
the story as I see it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims together =
and then signs them. The device is the attester.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then, =
this information is sent to another party, the relying party, which uses =
this information for some kind of decision =
making.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Evidence is just the name for =E2=80=9Cthis =
information=E2=80=9D.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Of =
course, there is some prior setup that has to happen (provisioning of =
keys during manufacturing) and some assumptions have to be made as well =
(attestation code on the device has to be well protected, code isolation =
being used, etc.).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Endorsements are the mechanism by which this =
happens.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Then, =
there is the a complex case where the relying party cannot use the =
received information directly. This is most likely related to any form =
of software measurements. If you send a hash of a bootloader to some =
relying party you cannot really expect it to be used for anything. The =
reason the relying party cannot use that information directly is because =
it does not know what software the device is really supposed to be =
running. Hence, there is a need to consult another party (let=E2=80=99s =
call it the verifier). The assumption is that this party knows what the =
expected fingerprint is and hence what software is running on the =
device.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Which=
 is why the terms Verifier and Results are used.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That=E2=80=99=
s all. There is not much more complexity to this topic. =
&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
personally would be happy without the Owners and the Appraisal Policies =
in the architecture as they seem obviously implied, but not enough to =
ask they be removed.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, where =
do all these terms come from? Appraisal policies, evidence, endorser, =
...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I would =
delete them and see whether the idea still gets =
across.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
think more clear writing would help.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>(We could put text in <a =
href=3D"https://www.scribens.com" class=3D"">https://www.scribens.com</a> =
and look at the Flesch and Gunning Fog indexes for readability under =
statistics)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ciao<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hannes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any =
attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not =
disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or =
store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. =
_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
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style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
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Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Hannes,
hi Laurence,

I think "evidence" vs. "information" is a very good example that shows 
why the text stabilized in the shape it is in now.

I am pretty sure that - and please speak up, if I am missing some vital 
point here - evidence is not simply information. At the very least there 
has to be a method to prevent (e.g. secure channel) or even detect 
(e.g. a signature) tampering with evidence. It also must originate from 
an attester, etc. So there are a lot of characteristics that are tied to 
evidence that make it at least a subclass of information.

This is only a small arbitrary example to illustrate how that minimal 
set of definitions came to be.

I totally agree that the definition of Evidence early on is not in 
alignment with the text (which I also think is better) anymore, but an 
issue about Evidence text is already in the tracker thanks to Kathleen 
and we will work on a more crisp description after the current open PR 
are settled.

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk


On 16.06.20 10:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Laurence,
> 
> as you explain below it might help to replace some of the terms with 
> others. I think the description does not make it easy to explain the 
> concepts to those who should actually be using them. I did the review 
> because I tried to explain the concept in a lecture to students.
> 
> For example, the term â€œinformationâ€� (or claims) sounds a lot simpler to 
> understand less sophisticated than â€œevidenceâ€�. Particularly, when the 
> term â€œevidenceâ€� is then described as â€œA set of information about an 
> Attester that is to be appraised by a Verifierâ€�. (The definition later 
> provided in the text is actually better but does not match the 
> definition earlier in the document. Inconsistency likely caused by 
> duplicating text throughout the document.) I earlier description is IMHO 
> actually wrong. For example, why does the verifier needs to be present 
> in all scenarios? In fact the models in Section 5 suggest otherwise. Why 
> cannot a device send the claims to a relying party? The case where you 
> need a verifier to interpret the claims may be a corner case in some 
> environments. Why is the information about an attester? It better 
> describe the characteristics of the device, as it is said in Section 8.1.
> 
> If you look at the whole exercise from a 10,000 foot viewÂ then we are 
> essentially using design patterns from the identity management space and 
> apply it here with slightly different information. Thatâ€™s in a nutshell 
> where the models in Section 5 came from.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Hannes
> 
> *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2020 3:37 AM
> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
> 
> Hi Hannes,
> 
> I think readability of the document could be improved and maybe some 
> simplification would be OK, but I generally think most of the core 
> entities and messages make sense.
> 
> 
> 
>     On Jun 9, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>     <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi all
> 
>     I have re-read the architecture document and IMHO it is still far
>     too complex. It makes the reader believe that attestation is some
>     rocket-science concept, which it just isnâ€™t. After such a long time
>     the document is unnecessarily hard to read and understand.
> 
>     Here is the story as I see it.
> 
>     In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims together and then
>     signs them. The device is the attester.
> 
>     Then, this information is sent to another party, the relying party,
>     which uses this information for some kind of decision making.
> 
> Evidence is just the name for â€œthis informationâ€�.
> 
> 
> 
>     Of course, there is some prior setup that has to happen
>     (provisioning of keys during manufacturing) and some assumptions
>     have to be made as well (attestation code on the device has to be
>     well protected, code isolation being used, etc.).
> 
> Endorsements are the mechanism by which this happens.
> 
> 
> 
>     Then, there is the a complex case where the relying party cannot use
>     the received information directly. This is most likely related to
>     any form of software measurements. If you send a hash of a
>     bootloader to some relying party you cannot really expect it to be
>     used for anything. The reason the relying party cannot use that
>     information directly is because it does not know what software the
>     device is really supposed to be running. Hence, there is a need to
>     consult another party (letâ€™s call it the verifier). The assumption
>     is that this party knows what the expected fingerprint is and hence
>     what software is running on the device.
> 
> Which is why the terms Verifier and Results are used.
> 
>     Thatâ€™s all. There is not much more complexity to this topic.
> 
> I personally would be happy without the Owners and the Appraisal 
> Policies in the architecture as they seem obviously implied, but not 
> enough to ask they be removed.
> 
>     So, where do all these terms come from? Appraisal policies,
>     evidence, endorser, ...
> 
>     I would delete them and see whether the idea still gets across.
> 
> I think more clear writing would help.
> 
> (We could put text in https://www.scribens.com and look at the Flesch 
> and Gunning Fog indexes for readability under statistics)
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>     Ciao
> 
>     Hannes
> 
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/F3xTUhQB7FIAU2NuIsgOx19fY_g>
Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Subject: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi RATS architecture authors,

Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit more?

I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device allowed=
 to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote server?
If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates, why d=
oesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the attestation serve=
r (for example, pretending that network connectivity is down)?

Ciao
Hannes

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:31 PM
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; Michae=
l Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04

Hi Ian,

can you provide a bit more details about what your domain is?

Ciao
Hannes

From: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com<mailto=
:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>=
>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@ar=
m.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04

Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in our domain

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.c=
om>> wrote:
    > Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use
    > case. Is this something people actually want to use in practice?
    > Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use
    > cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).

We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.
It's not a constrained case.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi RATS architecture authors, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could the authors of the use case explain the watchd=
og use case a bit more?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not understand how this is supposed to work. Ho=
w is the device allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to =
a remote server?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as th=
e text indicates, why doesn&#8217;t that malware also prevent the interacti=
on with the attestation server (for example, pretending that network connec=
tivity is down)?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.co=
m&gt;; Michael Richardson &lt;mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ian, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">can you provide a bit more details about what your d=
omain is?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.=
ca">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in o=
ur domain<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature">
<div>
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Cybersecurity Research<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Distinguished Member of Tec=
hnical Staff<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&#43;358 50 483 6237<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> Michael Richardso=
n<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04 <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a=
 made-up use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; case. Is this something people actually want to use=
 in practice?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with =
non-security use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).<br>
<br>
We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.<br>
It's not a constrained case.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43=
;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
&nbsp;-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any=
 attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th=
e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl=
ose the contents to any other person,
 use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th=
ank you.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Hannes,

we will most certainly take your comments into account and I will add an 
issue on "environments" definitions. Thanks!

In an ideal case, every message type (evidence, endorsement, attestation 
result, policies, and complementary documents) will be encoded the same. 
I'd assume that only "new" or very well-scoped or well-controlled 
domains will be able to do that, today. There is the "bow-tie" diagram 
in the architecture that illustrates potential mixes of "message 
formats", which are referred to encodings in the text. One target of the 
architecture is to explicitly not prescribe an encoding here.

Having said that, some things are easier, if the encoding is identical 
(aside from the typical suspects, such as cost, interoperability, or 
foot-print). One of these things is the composition of composite 
evidence that can also include attestation results and potentially even 
endorsements. In cases that build on composite evidence, attestation 
results might traverse other entities than relying parties. It is most 
certainly possible to augment the exemplary model "passport" as well as 
"background-check" to that extent.

Every "model" and the corresponding flow of conceptual messages (and 
their encodings) is never prescriptive but intended to be expositional.

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk


On 16.06.20 12:23, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Reading through Section 8.1 I wonder whether the definition from the terminology should be replaced by how you define it in Section 8.1. FWIW you might want to add the term "Target Environment" to the terminology section as well since you use it in various places in the document.
> 
> Is there actually a difference in the message format between evidence and attestation result? For example, could an EAT token be used for encoding evidence and the attestation result? Evidence can travel from the attester to the verifier and to the relying party but the attestation result can only be omitted by the verifier. Maybe I missed it but I couldn't find a case where a message exchange is just between an attester and a relying party. Is this not possible?
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:14 AM
> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
> 
> Hi Hannes,
> hi Laurence,
> 
> I think "evidence" vs. "information" is a very good example that shows why the text stabilized in the shape it is in now.
> 
> I am pretty sure that - and please speak up, if I am missing some vital point here - evidence is not simply information. At the very least there has to be a method to prevent (e.g. secure channel) or even detect (e.g. a signature) tampering with evidence. It also must originate from an attester, etc. So there are a lot of characteristics that are tied to evidence that make it at least a subclass of information.
> 
> This is only a small arbitrary example to illustrate how that minimal set of definitions came to be.
> 
> I totally agree that the definition of Evidence early on is not in alignment with the text (which I also think is better) anymore, but an issue about Evidence text is already in the tracker thanks to Kathleen and we will work on a more crisp description after the current open PR are settled.
> 
> Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> On 16.06.20 10:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Laurence,
>>
>> as you explain below it might help to replace some of the terms with
>> others. I think the description does not make it easy to explain the
>> concepts to those who should actually be using them. I did the review
>> because I tried to explain the concept in a lecture to students.
>>
>> For example, the term â€œinformationâ€� (or claims) sounds a lot simpler
>> to understand less sophisticated than â€œevidenceâ€�. Particularly, when
>> the term â€œevidenceâ€� is then described as â€œA set of information about
>> an Attester that is to be appraised by a Verifierâ€�. (The definition
>> later provided in the text is actually better but does not match the
>> definition earlier in the document. Inconsistency likely caused by
>> duplicating text throughout the document.) I earlier description is
>> IMHO actually wrong. For example, why does the verifier needs to be
>> present in all scenarios? In fact the models in Section 5 suggest
>> otherwise. Why cannot a device send the claims to a relying party? The
>> case where you need a verifier to interpret the claims may be a corner
>> case in some environments. Why is the information about an attester?
>> It better describe the characteristics of the device, as it is said in Section 8.1.
>>
>> If you look at the whole exercise from a 10,000 foot view then we are
>> essentially using design patterns from the identity management space
>> and apply it here with slightly different information. Thatâ€™s in a
>> nutshell where the models in Section 5 came from.
>>
>> Ciao
>>
>> Hannes
>>
>> *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2020 3:37 AM
>> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
>>
>> Hi Hannes,
>>
>> I think readability of the document could be improved and maybe some
>> simplification would be OK, but I generally think most of the core
>> entities and messages make sense.
>>
>>
>>
>>      On Jun 9, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>>      <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>
>>      Hi all
>>
>>      I have re-read the architecture document and IMHO it is still far
>>      too complex. It makes the reader believe that attestation is some
>>      rocket-science concept, which it just isnâ€™t. After such a long time
>>      the document is unnecessarily hard to read and understand.
>>
>>      Here is the story as I see it.
>>
>>      In the basic form a device puts a bunch of claims together and then
>>      signs them. The device is the attester.
>>
>>      Then, this information is sent to another party, the relying party,
>>      which uses this information for some kind of decision making.
>>
>> Evidence is just the name for â€œthis informationâ€�.
>>
>>
>>
>>      Of course, there is some prior setup that has to happen
>>      (provisioning of keys during manufacturing) and some assumptions
>>      have to be made as well (attestation code on the device has to be
>>      well protected, code isolation being used, etc.).
>>
>> Endorsements are the mechanism by which this happens.
>>
>>
>>
>>      Then, there is the a complex case where the relying party cannot use
>>      the received information directly. This is most likely related to
>>      any form of software measurements. If you send a hash of a
>>      bootloader to some relying party you cannot really expect it to be
>>      used for anything. The reason the relying party cannot use that
>>      information directly is because it does not know what software the
>>      device is really supposed to be running. Hence, there is a need to
>>      consult another party (letâ€™s call it the verifier). The assumption
>>      is that this party knows what the expected fingerprint is and hence
>>      what software is running on the device.
>>
>> Which is why the terms Verifier and Results are used.
>>
>>      Thatâ€™s all. There is not much more complexity to this topic.
>>
>> I personally would be happy without the Owners and the Appraisal
>> Policies in the architecture as they seem obviously implied, but not
>> enough to ask they be removed.
>>
>>      So, where do all these terms come from? Appraisal policies,
>>      evidence, endorser, ...
>>
>>      I would delete them and see whether the idea still gets across.
>>
>> I think more clear writing would help.
>>
>> (We could put text in https://www.scribens.com and look at the Flesch
>> and Gunning Fog indexes for readability under statistics)
>>
>> LL
>>
>>
>>
>>      Ciao
>>
>>      Hannes
>>
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Thanks for the feedback.  One reference we can add is
https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_TPM2_r1p62_Part1_A=
rchitecture_7july2020.pdf
section 43 (especially 43.3).

Dave

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 3:26 AM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/=
Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sande=
lman.ca>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-arch=
itecture-04

Hi RATS architecture authors,

Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit more?

I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device allowed=
 to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote server?
If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates, why d=
oesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the attestation serve=
r (for example, pretending that network connectivity is down)?

Ciao
Hannes

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:31 PM
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com<mailto:i=
an.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<=
mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04

Hi Ian,

can you provide a bit more details about what your domain is?

Ciao
Hannes

From: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com<mailto=
:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>=
>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@ar=
m.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04

Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in our domain

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.c=
om>> wrote:
    > Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a made-up use
    > case. Is this something people actually want to use in practice?
    > Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with non-security use
    > cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).

We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.
It's not a constrained case.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the feedback.&nbsp; One reference we can =
add is <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-cont=
ent/uploads/TCG_TPM2_r1p62_Part1_Architecture_7july2020.pdf">https://truste=
dcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG_TPM2_r1p62_Part1_Architecture_7j=
uly2020.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">section 43 (especially 43.3).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 16, 2020 3:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;; Oliver, Ian=
 (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com&gt;; Michael Richard=
son &lt;mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-ra=
ts-architecture-04<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi RATS architecture authors, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could the authors of the use case explain the watchd=
og use case a bit more?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not understand how this is supposed to work. Ho=
w is the device allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to =
a remote server?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as th=
e text indicates, why doesn&#8217;t that malware also prevent the interacti=
on with the attestation server (for example, pretending that network connec=
tivity is down)?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@=
nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;; Michael Richar=
dson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelma=
n.ca</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ian, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">can you provide a bit more details about what your d=
omain is?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.=
ca">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Just to add to that, the watchdog case is relevant in o=
ur domain<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;color:black">Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature">
<div>
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span style=3D"color:black">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Cybersecurity Research<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">&#43;358 50 483 6237<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> Michael Richardso=
n<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 09, 2020 22:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04 <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Regarding the hardware watchdog I just feel it is a=
 made-up use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; case. Is this something people actually want to use=
 in practice?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Today's use of hardware watchdogs aim to deal with =
non-security use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; cases (mostly dealing with crashing software).<br>
<br>
We've heard from Enterprise people that this is important.<br>
It's not a constrained case.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43=
;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
&nbsp;-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any=
 attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th=
e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl=
ose the contents to any other person,
 use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th=
ank you.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and=
 any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are no=
t the intended recipient, please notify the sender
 immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it f=
or any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit
    > more?

Sure.
Dave's reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" is rather
detailed, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.
Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.
Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.

    > I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device
    > allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote
    > server?

There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.

The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health and
sends this to a remote Verifier.

The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.

But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the TPM/secure
enclave itself.  So the Attestation Results are returned to the PC, and
provided to the enclave.

If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation Results as
to the systems' health, then it forces a reboot.

    > If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates,
    > why doesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the
    > attestation server (for example, pretending that network connectivity
    > is down)?

The arrangement is that of a deadman's switch: if the malware were to prevent
the communication, then the watch dog would go off.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

--=-=-=
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CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/k1j_WozTAFrLB8S47fB4Vija_KY>
Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Michael,

thanks for the reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" spec. I=
 have not seen that spec before.

It says:

"
A typical example for the use of an ACT is as a watchdog timer that will ca=
use a platform reset when the timer reaches
zero (expires). In a system using an ACT, a periodic platform action outsid=
e the TPM indicates that the timeout should
be set anew using TPM2_ACT_SetTimeout(). The most common reason why timeout=
 is not set anew is that the local
system is not behaving properly because of some type of corruption (either =
inadvertent or malicious). The intent of
the timer is that, in the absence of a properly authorized timeout extensio=
n, the platform would be reset, putting it back
into a known state with the expectation that the corruption can be removed.
"

Thanks for the description of a possible message flow. This makes much more=
 sense to me now.

In fact, we have the building blocks to get this working already when you c=
ombine the EAT token (for the attestation), the CWT for authorization (as m=
entioned in the TPM spec above), and SUIT (for the update of the software t=
hat is needed to fix the system). When we look at TEEP then we actually see=
 these building blocks combined to get this use case working via a standard=
ized protocol.

Now I am excited about this and maybe someone in the RATS/TEEP group wants =
to prototype it.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:20 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; rats@i=
etf.org
Subject: Re: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-=
architecture-04


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit
    > more?

Sure.
Dave's reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" is rather detai=
led, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.
Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.
Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.

    > I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device
    > allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote
    > server?

There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.

The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health and s=
ends this to a remote Verifier.

The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.

But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the TPM/secur=
e enclave itself.  So the Attestation Results are returned to the PC, and p=
rovided to the enclave.

If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation Results a=
s to the systems' health, then it forces a reboot.

    > If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates,
    > why doesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the
    > attestation server (for example, pretending that network connectivity
    > is down)?

The arrangement is that of a deadman's switch: if the malware were to preve=
nt the communication, then the watch dog would go off.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
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any medium. Thank you.


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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Hannes,

the fact remains that the corresponding use case text alone was not 
enough to get you exited (I am glad that you are now *g*). Are you in a 
position to maybe provide a proposal how to rephrase the use case 
description in a way that would have helped you from the very start?

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

On 17.06.20 14:17, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> thanks for the reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" spec. I have not seen that spec before.
> 
> It says:
> 
> "
> A typical example for the use of an ACT is as a watchdog timer that will cause a platform reset when the timer reaches
> zero (expires). In a system using an ACT, a periodic platform action outside the TPM indicates that the timeout should
> be set anew using TPM2_ACT_SetTimeout(). The most common reason why timeout is not set anew is that the local
> system is not behaving properly because of some type of corruption (either inadvertent or malicious). The intent of
> the timer is that, in the absence of a properly authorized timeout extension, the platform would be reset, putting it back
> into a known state with the expectation that the corruption can be removed.
> "
> 
> Thanks for the description of a possible message flow. This makes much more sense to me now.
> 
> In fact, we have the building blocks to get this working already when you combine the EAT token (for the attestation), the CWT for authorization (as mentioned in the TPM spec above), and SUIT (for the update of the software that is needed to fix the system). When we look at TEEP then we actually see these building blocks combined to get this use case working via a standardized protocol.
> 
> Now I am excited about this and maybe someone in the RATS/TEEP group wants to prototype it.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:20 PM
> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
> 
> 
> Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>      > Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit
>      > more?
> 
> Sure.
> Dave's reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" is rather detailed, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.
> Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.
> Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.
> 
>      > I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device
>      > allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote
>      > server?
> 
> There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.
> 
> The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health and sends this to a remote Verifier.
> 
> The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.
> 
> But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the TPM/secure enclave itself.  So the Attestation Results are returned to the PC, and provided to the enclave.
> 
> If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation Results as to the systems' health, then it forces a reboot.
> 
>      > If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates,
>      > why doesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the
>      > attestation server (for example, pretending that network connectivity
>      > is down)?
> 
> The arrangement is that of a deadman's switch: if the malware were to prevent the communication, then the watch dog would go off.
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/EkLcWKiStnIjd6Wo-j7YPlWLYn8>
Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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From nobody Wed Jun 17 05:44:24 2020
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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 08:44:06 -0400
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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>,  "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Hi Hannes,

This thread was useful.  I also thought (and still think) that the original
watchdog use case was obscure.  I note that no remote system will ever
be able to "force a reboot" in an attesting system infected w/ malware.
Only the Platform Manufacturer who has chose to wire the watchdog
timer to the reset line can achieve that (and it still won't obviously clea=
r
out the malware).

I don't like the inclusion of this "and then a miracle happens" use case
in the already too tricky RATS Architecture.

Cheers,
- Ira


*Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)Co-Chair - TCG Trusted
Mobility Solutions WG*

*Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG*








*Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WGSecretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer
Working GroupCo-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WGIETF
Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIBBlue Roof Music / High North
Inchttp://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
<http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic>http://sites.google.com/site/hi=
ghnorthinc
<http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc>mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
<blueroofmusic@gmail.com>(permanent) PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839
906-494-2434*


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:34 AM Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.co=
m>
wrote:

> Hi Henk,
>
> It is quite possible that I was the only person who did not understood
> this use case and the rest of group was puzzled about me not understandin=
g
> it. Ian was the other person commenting and understood it as well.
>
> Now I get it and I am happy.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:22 PM
> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Michael Richardson <
> mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>;
> rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in
> draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
>
> Hi Hannes,
>
> the fact remains that the corresponding use case text alone was not enoug=
h
> to get you exited (I am glad that you are now *g*). Are you in a position
> to maybe provide a proposal how to rephrase the use case description in a
> way that would have helped you from the very start?
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
> On 17.06.20 14:17, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > thanks for the reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer"
> spec. I have not seen that spec before.
> >
> > It says:
> >
> > "
> > A typical example for the use of an ACT is as a watchdog timer that
> > will cause a platform reset when the timer reaches zero (expires). In
> > a system using an ACT, a periodic platform action outside the TPM
> > indicates that the timeout should be set anew using
> > TPM2_ACT_SetTimeout(). The most common reason why timeout is not set
> > anew is that the local system is not behaving properly because of some
> type of corruption (either inadvertent or malicious). The intent of the
> timer is that, in the absence of a properly authorized timeout extension,
> the platform would be reset, putting it back into a known state with the
> expectation that the corruption can be removed.
> > "
> >
> > Thanks for the description of a possible message flow. This makes much
> more sense to me now.
> >
> > In fact, we have the building blocks to get this working already when
> you combine the EAT token (for the attestation), the CWT for authorizatio=
n
> (as mentioned in the TPM spec above), and SUIT (for the update of the
> software that is needed to fix the system). When we look at TEEP then we
> actually see these building blocks combined to get this use case working
> via a standardized protocol.
> >
> > Now I am excited about this and maybe someone in the RATS/TEEP group
> wants to prototype it.
> >
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:20 PM
> > To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> > Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>;
> > rats@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in
> > draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
> >
> >
> > Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
> >      > Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case =
a
> bit
> >      > more?
> >
> > Sure.
> > Dave's reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" is rather
> detailed, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.
> > Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.
> > Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.
> >
> >      > I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the
> device
> >      > allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to a
> remote
> >      > server?
> >
> > There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.
> >
> > The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health
> and sends this to a remote Verifier.
> >
> > The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.
> >
> > But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the
> TPM/secure enclave itself.  So the Attestation Results are returned to th=
e
> PC, and provided to the enclave.
> >
> > If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation
> Results as to the systems' health, then it forces a reboot.
> >
> >      > If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text
> indicates,
> >      > why doesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the
> >      > attestation server (for example, pretending that network
> connectivity
> >      > is down)?
> >
> > The arrangement is that of a deadman's switch: if the malware were to
> prevent the communication, then the watch dog would go off.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this em=
ail
> and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you a=
re
> not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do n=
ot
> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or sto=
re
> or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > RATS mailing list
> > RATS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>

--000000000000bda16105a847041c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Hannes,</div><div><br></div><div>This thread was u=
seful.=C2=A0 I also thought (and still think) that the original</div><div>w=
atchdog use case was obscure.=C2=A0 I note that no remote system will ever<=
/div><div>be able to &quot;force a reboot&quot; in an attesting system infe=
cted w/ malware.</div><div>Only the Platform Manufacturer who has chose to =
wire the watchdog</div><div>timer to the reset line can achieve that (and i=
t still won&#39;t obviously clear</div><div>out the malware).</div><div><br=
></div><div>I don&#39;t like the inclusion of this &quot;and then a miracle=
 happens&quot; use case</div><div>in the already too tricky RATS Architectu=
re.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>- Ira</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_=
signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i><font size=3D"1">I=
ra McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobil=
ity Solutions WG</font></i></div><div><i><font size=3D"1">Co-Chair - TCG Me=
tadata Access Protocol SG<br></font></i></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i><font siz=
e=3D"1">Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO =
Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protoco=
l WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music /=
 High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.g=
oogle.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/sit=
e/blueroofmusic</a><br><a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sit=
es.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/=
site/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>(permanent) PO Box 221=C2=
=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434</font></i></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:34 AM Hannes Tschof=
enig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">Hi Henk,<br>
<br>
It is quite possible that I was the only person who did not understood this=
 use case and the rest of group was puzzled about me not understanding it. =
Ian was the other person commenting and understood it as well.<br>
<br>
Now I get it and I am happy.<br>
<br>
Ciao<br>
Hannes<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:22 PM<br>
To: Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;; Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelma=
n.ca</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-b=
ell-labs.com" target=3D"_blank">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-=
architecture-04<br>
<br>
Hi Hannes,<br>
<br>
the fact remains that the corresponding use case text alone was not enough =
to get you exited (I am glad that you are now *g*). Are you in a position t=
o maybe provide a proposal how to rephrase the use case description in a wa=
y that would have helped you from the very start?<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 17.06.20 14:17, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Michael,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; thanks for the reference to the TCG &quot;Authenticated Countdown Time=
r&quot; spec. I have not seen that spec before.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;<br>
&gt; A typical example for the use of an ACT is as a watchdog timer that<br=
>
&gt; will cause a platform reset when the timer reaches zero (expires). In<=
br>
&gt; a system using an ACT, a periodic platform action outside the TPM<br>
&gt; indicates that the timeout should be set anew using<br>
&gt; TPM2_ACT_SetTimeout(). The most common reason why timeout is not set<b=
r>
&gt; anew is that the local system is not behaving properly because of some=
 type of corruption (either inadvertent or malicious). The intent of the ti=
mer is that, in the absence of a properly authorized timeout extension, the=
 platform would be reset, putting it back into a known state with the expec=
tation that the corruption can be removed.<br>
&gt; &quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the description of a possible message flow. This makes much=
 more sense to me now.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In fact, we have the building blocks to get this working already when =
you combine the EAT token (for the attestation), the CWT for authorization =
(as mentioned in the TPM spec above), and SUIT (for the update of the softw=
are that is needed to fix the system). When we look at TEEP then we actuall=
y see these building blocks combined to get this use case working via a sta=
ndardized protocol.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Now I am excited about this and maybe someone in the RATS/TEEP group w=
ants to prototype it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ciao<br>
&gt; Hannes<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca=
" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:20 PM<br>
&gt; To: Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@no=
kia-bell-labs.com" target=3D"_blank">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; Subject: Re: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Could the authors of the use case explain the=
 watchdog use case a bit<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; more?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sure.<br>
&gt; Dave&#39;s reference to the TCG &quot;Authenticated Countdown Timer&qu=
ot; is rather detailed, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.<br>
&gt; Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.<br>
&gt; Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I do not understand how this is supposed to w=
ork. How is the device<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; allowed to reboot when it sends attestation i=
nformation to a remote<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; server?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health =
and sends this to a remote Verifier.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the TPM/=
secure enclave itself.=C2=A0 So the Attestation Results are returned to the=
 PC, and provided to the enclave.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation Resu=
lts as to the systems&#39; health, then it forces a reboot.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; If malware prevents the device from rebooting=
, as the text indicates,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; why doesn&#39;t that malware also prevent the=
 interaction with the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; attestation server (for example, pretending t=
hat network connectivity<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; is down)?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The arrangement is that of a deadman&#39;s switch: if the malware were=
 to prevent the communication, then the watch dog would go off.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
&gt; -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this e=
mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If yo=
u are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and =
do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, o=
r store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; RATS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
&gt;<br>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
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Understood. Thx!

@list: If you can find the time, please check the use cases in the 
current architecture I-D via the following link and tell us, if one of 
them is confusing to you (positive feedback is of course also welcome!).

The use cases can be found in section 3 of the latest draft:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04#section-3


Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

On 17.06.20 14:33, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> It is quite possible that I was the only person who did not understood this use case and the rest of group was puzzled about me not understanding it. Ian was the other person commenting and understood it as well.
> 
> Now I get it and I am happy.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:22 PM
> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] watchdog use case ... RE: Use cases in draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
> 
> Hi Hannes,
> 
> the fact remains that the corresponding use case text alone was not enough to get you exited (I am glad that you are now *g*). Are you in a position to maybe provide a proposal how to rephrase the use case description in a way that would have helped you from the very start?
> 
> Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 17.06.20 14:17, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> thanks for the reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" spec. I have not seen that spec before.
>>
>> It says:
>>
>> "
>> A typical example for the use of an ACT is as a watchdog timer that
>> will cause a platform reset when the timer reaches zero (expires). In
>> a system using an ACT, a periodic platform action outside the TPM
>> indicates that the timeout should be set anew using
>> TPM2_ACT_SetTimeout(). The most common reason why timeout is not set
>> anew is that the local system is not behaving properly because of some type of corruption (either inadvertent or malicious). The intent of the timer is that, in the absence of a properly authorized timeout extension, the platform would be reset, putting it back into a known state with the expectation that the corruption can be removed.
>> "
>>
>> Thanks for the description of a possible message flow. This makes much more sense to me now.
>>
>> In fact, we have the building blocks to get this working already when you combine the EAT token (for the attestation), the CWT for authorization (as mentioned in the TPM spec above), and SUIT (for the update of the software that is needed to fix the system). When we look at TEEP then we actually see these building blocks combined to get this use case working via a standardized protocol.
>>
>> Now I am excited about this and maybe someone in the RATS/TEEP group wants to prototype it.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 10:20 PM
>> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>> Cc: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>;
>> rats@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: watchdog use case ... RE: [Rats] Use cases in
>> draft-ietf-rats-architecture-04
>>
>>
>> Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>>       > Could the authors of the use case explain the watchdog use case a bit
>>       > more?
>>
>> Sure.
>> Dave's reference to the TCG "Authenticated Countdown Timer" is rather detailed, but perhaps misses the forest for the trees.
>> Perhaps I can be a bit more concise.
>> Ian, please let us know if this describes your situation as well.
>>
>>       > I do not understand how this is supposed to work. How is the device
>>       > allowed to reboot when it sends attestation information to a remote
>>       > server?
>>
>> There are usual three parties: Attester, Verifier, Relying Party.
>>
>> The Attester (secure enclave/TPM/etc.) collects Evidence as to health and sends this to a remote Verifier.
>>
>> The Verify creates an Attestation Result as normal.
>>
>> But, in the case, the Relying Party is the Watch Dog timer in the TPM/secure enclave itself.  So the Attestation Results are returned to the PC, and provided to the enclave.
>>
>> If the watch dog does not receive regular, and fresh, Attestation Results as to the systems' health, then it forces a reboot.
>>
>>       > If malware prevents the device from rebooting, as the text indicates,
>>       > why doesn't that malware also prevent the interaction with the
>>       > attestation server (for example, pretending that network connectivity
>>       > is down)?
>>
>> The arrangement is that of a deadman's switch: if the malware were to prevent the communication, then the watch dog would go off.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de" <michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>, "Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)" <bsulzen@cisco.com>, "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, "tom.laffey@hpe.com" <tom.laffey@hpe.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/yw5dAebb97ip9QYjlU3L1r-wowk>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Pull request for the charra YANG model
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I have updated the pull request based on some more thoughts.  The links
below show the full set of proposed deltas.  Main changes are:

 

*	Align to the drafts currently under WGLC in NETCONF

*	Extracted Crypto-types into a separate YANG file
ietf-crypto-types.yang.  (Note: The proposed structure his matches to the
stated intent of the NETCONF WG.  They almost took iana-crypto-types.yang to
WGLC, but pulled that file to simplify things.)
*	Made certificate leaf-refs to ietf-keystore.yang (this improves the
richness of what can be stored, while making this YANG model smaller.)

 

*	Made a few uint types into more explicit typing.

 

Eric

 

From: Eric Voit (evoit) 
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 PM
To: henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de; michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de;
Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <shwethab@cisco.com>; Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)
<bsulzen@cisco.com>; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; tom.laffey@hpe.com; Guy
Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Pull request for the charra YANG model

 

Henk,         Michael,

Shwetha,   Bill,

Frank,        Tom,

Guy,

 

As authors of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created
a pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files> .  I am
proposing some fixes due to a number of concerns
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6>  I had about
the YANG model:

 

*	PCR numbers should be their own type, not a UINT8. PCRs should be
limited to [0..31]
*	We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG and IETF crypto
algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be introduced which we can
protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM construct.
*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.
*	The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name of "ALL". Instead
of "ALL" we should be able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based
TPMs if a specific TPM is not named in the RPC. 
*	We should add leaf for a unique 'certificate-name' is used. This
allows for a cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't
need to track node-ids. 
*	We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that
RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of that type are supported.
*	We should create new reusable groupings rather than repeat
definitions. 

If your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that
would be great.   I also think the netequip boot pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5>  can also be
integrated.

 

Thanks,

Eric

 


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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I have updated the pull request based on some more =
thoughts.&nbsp; The links below show the full set of proposed =
deltas.&nbsp; Main changes are:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>Align to the drafts =
currently under WGLC in NETCONF<o:p></o:p></li><ul =
style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Dcircle><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo3'>Extracted Crypto-types =
into a separate YANG file ietf-crypto-types.yang.&nbsp; (Note: The =
proposed structure his matches to the stated intent of the NETCONF =
WG.&nbsp; They almost took iana-crypto-types.yang to WGLC, but pulled =
that file to simplify things.)<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 =
lfo3'>Made certificate leaf-refs to ietf-keystore.yang (this improves =
the richness of what can be stored, while making this YANG model =
smaller.)<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul =
style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>Made a few uint types =
into more explicit typing.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Eric =
Voit (evoit) <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de; =
michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) =
&lt;shwethab@cisco.com&gt;; Bill Sulzen (bsulzen) =
&lt;bsulzen@cisco.com&gt;; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; =
tom.laffey@hpe.com; Guy Fedorkow =
&lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
rats@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Pull request for the charra YANG =
model<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Henk, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Michael,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>Shwetha,&nbsp; &nbsp;Bill,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Frank, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Tom,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Guy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As authors =
of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files">p=
ull request</a>.&nbsp; I am proposing some fixes due to a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6">numbe=
r of concerns</a> I had about the YANG model:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>PCR numbers should be their own type, not =
a UINT8. PCRs should be limited to [0..31]<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>We should use ENUMs instead of strings for =
TCG and IETF crypto algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be =
introduced which we can protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM =
construct.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line =
cards. Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm =
name]. This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. =
Instead the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>The YANG doctors will not let us have a =
TPM-Name of &quot;ALL&quot;. Instead of &quot;ALL&quot; we should be =
able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based TPMs if a specific =
TPM is not named in the RPC. <o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>We should add leaf for a unique <span =
style=3D'background:white'>'certificate-name' is used. This allows for a =
cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't need to =
track node-ids.</span> <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo7;background:white'>We should have optional YANG features for =
TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that RPCs are not exposed when there are no such =
TPMs of that type are supported.<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#24292E;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l3 level1 lfo7;background:white'>We should create new reusable =
groupings rather than repeat definitions. <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If your guys have suggestions and improvements for =
this pull request, that would be great.&nbsp;&nbsp; I also think the <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5">netequi=
p boot pull request</a> can also be integrated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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Cc: draft-moran-suit-mud@ietf.org, suit <suit@ietf.org>, rats@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/6r1lezI8QFTKRXJf33giLDKRK6c>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [Suit] draft-moran-suit-mud, EAT and MUD
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I think that the best way forward is to ask SECDISPATCH.  I do not think =
SUIT is a bad answer, but we have a process to pick.

Russ


> On Jun 14, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
> Hi, I read draft-moran-suit-mud today.
> It would naturally fall into a MUD WG if we had that.
> As it is, I have no idea where to discuss this, and thus another =
shotgun.
> I gather the mailman deletes my Reply-To suggestions.
>=20
> I feel that this document should be adopted and the details filed in, =
but I
> have no idea what WG it belongs in given the current state of things.
> {It totally fits into the IoT lifecycle security WG I had proposed}
>=20
> I knew it was around since it was talked about at the Hackathon a =
bunch, but
> I hadn't read the result until today.
>=20
> If you use Hypothesis my comments are at:
>  =
https://hyp.is/go?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-moran-su=
it-mud-00.html&group=3D__world__
> I'm not sure what that does if you don't have the plugin installed.
> I'd prefer to write them as a pull request since they are mostly =
suggestions
> on fixing some wording rather than any kind of substantive request for
> changes.
>=20
> Substantive comments:
>  "At the time of onboarding, devices report their manifest in use to =
the MUD
>  manager."
>=20
> so I think that we will need to detail this!!!
> When using an IDevID based onboarding system =
(BRSKI/BRSKI-TEEP/BRSKI-AE or
> EAP-NOOB with some certificate based system) then the MUD certificate =
OID is available.
> But, that's not the manifest of the software currently running, and it =
would
> not be reasonable to embed that into the IDevID for the reasons I =
explain at:
>   =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-richardson-opsawg-mud-acceptab=
le-urls-00#section-2
>=20
> More interesting is that you are requesting:
>     Each time a device is updated, rebooted, or otherwise =
substantially
>     changed, it will execute an attestation.
>     Among other claims in the Entity Attestation Token (EAT)
>     [I-D.ietf-rats-eat], the device will report its software =
digest(s),
>     configuration digest(s), primary manifest URI, and primary =
manifest
>     digest to the MUD manager.
>=20
> Well, that attestation is actually ideal for use during onboarding as =
well.
>=20
> It seems to me that the path of trust should go like:
>=20
>   1) (Manufacturer IDevID PKI) -> IDevID.
>   2) IDevID   -> "generic" MUD file  (signed by key from Manufacturer =
PKI <%>)
>   3) MUD file -> identifies key that signs firmware manifests
>   4) SUIT MANIFEST -> "specific" (per version) MUD file
>=20
> I had previous suggested that the SBOM be attached to the per-version =
MUD
> file, but I am not so sure anymore.
>=20
> Note that the EAT described above would be *Evidence* (not Attestation
> Results), per the architecture.  It would be signed by the IDevID in =
<2>.
>=20
> Finally, if you didn't see my message to secdispatch about IDevID.
>  =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/Hqe1lHG2wnW_9NxJLazEYbmG=
YN0/
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-


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From: "Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)" <bsulzen@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de" <michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>, "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, "tom.laffey@hpe.com" <tom.laffey@hpe.com>, "Guy Fedorkow" <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Eric,

 

Regarding your issue:

 

*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.

as I read the updated attestation tree, there still is support for multiple
TPMs in a given management plane (i.e. there's still support for multiple
linecards - AKA "composite systems.") But if a given linecard/node within a
management plane entity, then they would have to be differentiated by
tpm-name rather than by node-id. Is that correct?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

From: Eric Voit (evoit) 
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 PM
To: henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de; michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de;
Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <shwethab@cisco.com>; Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)
<bsulzen@cisco.com>; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; tom.laffey@hpe.com; Guy
Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Pull request for the charra YANG model

 

Henk,         Michael,

Shwetha,   Bill,

Frank,        Tom,

Guy,

 

As authors of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created
a pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files> .  I am
proposing some fixes due to a number of concerns
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6>  I had about
the YANG model:

 

*	PCR numbers should be their own type, not a UINT8. PCRs should be
limited to [0..31]
*	We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG and IETF crypto
algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be introduced which we can
protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM construct.
*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.
*	The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name of "ALL". Instead
of "ALL" we should be able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based
TPMs if a specific TPM is not named in the RPC. 
*	We should add leaf for a unique 'certificate-name' is used. This
allows for a cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't
need to track node-ids. 
*	We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that
RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of that type are supported.
*	We should create new reusable groupings rather than repeat
definitions. 

If your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that
would be great.   I also think the netequip boot pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5>  can also be
integrated.

 

Thanks,

Eric

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding =
your issue:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul =
style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#4472C4;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line cards. =
Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. =
This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead =
the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal>as I =
read the updated attestation tree, there still is support for multiple =
TPMs in a given management plane (i.e. there&#8217;s still support for =
multiple linecards &#8211; AKA &#8220;composite systems.&#8221;) But if =
a given linecard/node within a management plane entity, then they would =
have to be differentiated by tpm-name rather than by node-id. Is that =
correct?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bill<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Eric =
Voit (evoit) <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de; =
michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) =
&lt;shwethab@cisco.com&gt;; Bill Sulzen (bsulzen) =
&lt;bsulzen@cisco.com&gt;; frank.xialiang@huawei.com; =
tom.laffey@hpe.com; Guy Fedorkow =
&lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
rats@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Pull request for the charra YANG =
model<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Henk, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Michael,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>Shwetha,&nbsp; &nbsp;Bill,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Frank, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Tom,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Guy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As authors =
of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files">p=
ull request</a>.&nbsp; I am proposing some fixes due to a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6">numbe=
r of concerns</a> I had about the YANG model:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>PCR numbers should be their own type, not a =
UINT8. PCRs should be limited to [0..31]<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG =
and IETF crypto algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be =
introduced which we can protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM =
construct.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line cards. =
Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. =
This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead =
the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name =
of &quot;ALL&quot;. Instead of &quot;ALL&quot; we should be able to =
assume that an RPC means all hardware based TPMs if a specific TPM is =
not named in the RPC. <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should add leaf for a unique <span =
style=3D'background:white'>'certificate-name' is used. This allows for a =
cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't need to =
track node-ids.</span> <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 =
and TPM2.0 so that RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of =
that type are supported.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should create new reusable groupings rather =
than repeat definitions. <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal>If =
your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that =
would be great.&nbsp;&nbsp; I also think the <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5">netequi=
p boot pull request</a> can also be integrated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, draft-moran-suit-mud@ietf.org,  suit <suit@ietf.org>, rats@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [Suit] draft-moran-suit-mud, EAT and MUD
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I think that=E2=80=99s a fine answer.

> On 22 Jun 2020, at 16:21, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I think that the best way forward is to ask SECDISPATCH.  I do not =
think SUIT is a bad answer, but we have a process to pick.
>=20
> Russ


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Bill Sulzen (bsulzen)" <bsulzen@cisco.com>, "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de" <michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>, "frank.xialiang@huawei.com" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>, "tom.laffey@hpe.com" <tom.laffey@hpe.com>, "Guy Fedorkow" <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/dJA5uhjlauCQtVwmLRresjRX37c>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Pull request for the charra YANG model
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Hi Bill,

 

From: Bill Sulzen (bsulzen), June 22, 2020 10:33 AM
Subject: RE: Pull request for the charra YANG model

 

Eric,

 

Regarding your issue:

 

*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.

as I read the updated attestation tree, there still is support for multiple
TPMs in a given management plane (i.e. there's still support for multiple
linecards - AKA "composite systems.") 

 

<eric>   Yes your interpretation is correct.  When there are multiple
line-cards, the YANG model requires a leaf-ref to that card. 

 

But if a given linecard/node within a management plane entity, then they
would have to be differentiated by tpm-name rather than by node-id. Is that
correct?

 

<eric> The 'tpm-name' object needs to be unique across a composite device,
it could be a random string (in fact this is a common practice for YANG
models).   

 

Initially I thought about populating that name with the 'tpm-path'.  However
that 'tpm-path' might change across reboots.   Both the 'tpm-path' and
'tpm-name' are unique within a single boot cycle, and can be used as part of
a lookup within the data nodes of 'rats-support-structures'.

 

Eric

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

From: Eric Voit (evoit) 
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 PM
To: henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
; michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de <mailto:michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de> ;
Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <shwethab@cisco.com <mailto:shwethab@cisco.com>
>; Bill Sulzen (bsulzen) <bsulzen@cisco.com <mailto:bsulzen@cisco.com> >;
frank.xialiang@huawei.com <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com> ;
tom.laffey@hpe.com <mailto:tom.laffey@hpe.com> ; Guy Fedorkow
<gfedorkow@juniper.net <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> >
Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> 
Subject: Pull request for the charra YANG model

 

Henk,         Michael,

Shwetha,   Bill,

Frank,        Tom,

Guy,

 

As authors of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created
a pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files> .  I am
proposing some fixes due to a number of concerns
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6>  I had about
the YANG model:

 

*	PCR numbers should be their own type, not a UINT8. PCRs should be
limited to [0..31]
*	We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG and IETF crypto
algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be introduced which we can
protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM construct.
*	Most devices do not have multiple line cards. Because of that, we
should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. This adds unnecessary
complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead the tpm should have a
mandatory leafref back to node-id when compute-nodes is not null.
*	The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name of "ALL". Instead
of "ALL" we should be able to assume that an RPC means all hardware based
TPMs if a specific TPM is not named in the RPC. 
*	We should add leaf for a unique 'certificate-name' is used. This
allows for a cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't
need to track node-ids. 
*	We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 and TPM2.0 so that
RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of that type are supported.
*	We should create new reusable groupings rather than repeat
definitions. 

If your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that
would be great.   I also think the netequip boot pull request
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5>  can also be
integrated.

 

Thanks,

Eric

 


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#4472C4'>Hi =
Bill,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Bill =
Sulzen (bsulzen), June 22, 2020 10:33 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: Pull =
request for the charra YANG model<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding =
your issue:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul =
style=3D'margin-top:0in' type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#4472C4;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line cards. =
Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. =
This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead =
the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal>as I =
read the updated attestation tree, there still is support for multiple =
TPMs in a given management plane (i.e. there&#8217;s still support for =
multiple linecards &#8211; AKA &#8220;composite systems.&#8221;) =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#4472C4'>&lt;eric&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Yes your interpretation is correct.&nbsp; When there are multiple =
line-cards, the YANG model requires a leaf-ref to that card. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>But if a given linecard/node within a management plane =
entity, then they would have to be differentiated by tpm-name rather =
than by node-id. Is that correct?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'>&lt;eric&gt; The 'tpm-name' object needs to be =
unique across a composite device, it could be a random string (in fact =
this is a common practice for YANG models).&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#4472C4'>Initially I thought =
about populating that name with the 'tpm-path'.&nbsp; However that =
'tpm-path' might change across reboots.&nbsp;&nbsp; Both the 'tpm-path' =
and 'tpm-name' are unique within a single boot cycle, and can be used as =
part of a lookup within the data nodes of =
'rats-support-structures'.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'>Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bill<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Eric =
Voit (evoit) <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:18 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:michael.eckel@sit.fraunhofer.de">michael.eckel@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shwethab@cisco.com">shwethab@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Bill =
Sulzen (bsulzen) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bsulzen@cisco.com">bsulzen@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com">frank.xialiang@huawei.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:tom.laffey@hpe.com">tom.laffey@hpe.com</a>; Guy =
Fedorkow &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Pull =
request for the charra YANG model<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Henk, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Michael,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>Shwetha,&nbsp; &nbsp;Bill,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Frank, =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Tom,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Guy,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As authors =
of the Charra YANG model, I wanted to let you know I have created a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/8/files">p=
ull request</a>.&nbsp; I am proposing some fixes due to a <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/issues/6">numbe=
r of concerns</a> I had about the YANG model:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>PCR numbers should be their own type, not a =
UINT8. PCRs should be limited to [0..31]<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should use ENUMs instead of strings for TCG =
and IETF crypto algorithm types. Strings allow lots of errors to be =
introduced which we can protect using a larger, more detailed ENUM =
construct.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>Most devices do not have multiple line cards. =
Because of that, we should not have nested keys of [node id] [tpm name]. =
This adds unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of users. Instead =
the tpm should have a mandatory leafref back to node-id when =
compute-nodes is not null.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>The YANG doctors will not let us have a TPM-Name =
of &quot;ALL&quot;. Instead of &quot;ALL&quot; we should be able to =
assume that an RPC means all hardware based TPMs if a specific TPM is =
not named in the RPC. <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should add leaf for a unique <span =
style=3D'background:white'>'certificate-name' is used. This allows for a =
cleaner certificate migration path, and most RPC users won't need to =
track node-ids.</span> <o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should have optional YANG features for TPM1.2 =
and TPM2.0 so that RPCs are not exposed when there are no such TPMs of =
that type are supported.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:#24292E;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3;background:white'>We should create new reusable groupings rather =
than repeat definitions. <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal>If =
your guys have suggestions and improvements for this pull request, that =
would be great.&nbsp;&nbsp; I also think the <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/basic-yang-module/pull/5">netequi=
p boot pull request</a> can also be integrated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:01:24 +0000
From: mcharlesr@gmail.com
To: rats@ietf.org, prowe@mitre.org, elear@cisco.com, mdb@juniper.net,  ncamwing@cisco.com, Nicolae Paladi <nicolae.paladi@ri.se>, jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com,  lgl@island-resort.com, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-rats@hardjono.net>, blueroofmusic@gmail.com,  Thomas Fossati <tho@koanlogic.com>, mathias.brossard@arm.com,  Pete Loscocco <pete.loscocco@gmail.com>, Thomas Fossati <thomas.fossati@arm.com>,  "Guinn, Andrew L." <andrew.guinn@jhuapl.edu>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, shwethab@cisco.com, dthaler@microsoft.com, Peter Loscocco <palosco@tycho.nsa.gov>, "Helble, Sarah C." <sarah.helble@jhuapl.edu>
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Subject: [Rats] Invitation: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time @ Weekly from 10:00 to 11:00 on Friday from Fri 2020-06-26 to Tue 2020-06-30 (EDT) (rats@ietf.org)
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You have been invited to the following event.

Title: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time
Meeting  
link:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25Meeting  
number:610 366 750Password:4vY2aS6X8DFHost key:820822More ways to join
When: Weekly from 10:00 to 11:00 on Friday from Fri 2020-06-26 to Tue  
2020-06-30 Eastern Time - Toronto
Where:  
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25,

Joining info: Join with Google Meet
https://meet.google.com/tju-xpot-axd

Calendar: rats@ietf.org
Who:
     * mcharlesr@gmail.com - organizer
     * prowe@mitre.org
     * elear@cisco.com
     * mdb@juniper.net
     * ncamwing@cisco.com
     * Nicolae Paladi
     * rats@ietf.org
     * jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
     * lgl@island-resort.com
     * Thomas Hardjono
     * blueroofmusic@gmail.com
     * Thomas Fossati
     * mathias.brossard@arm.com
     * Pete Loscocco
     * Thomas Fossati
     * Guinn, Andrew L.
     * Ned Smith
     * Henk Birkholz
     * shwethab@cisco.com
     * dthaler@microsoft.com
     * Peter Loscocco
     * Helble, Sarah C.

Event details:  
https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=VIEW&eid=NGxjcmowdnNzazA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&tok=MTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWVlMDJjZTMzN2Q0NDBhZTM3MjNhNWNiZTQ&ctz=America%2FToronto&hl=en&es=0

Invitation from Google Calendar: https://www.google.com/calendar/

You are receiving this courtesy email at the account rats@ietf.org because  
you are an attendee of this event.

To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline this event.  
Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at  
https://www.google.com/calendar/ and control your notification settings for  
your entire calendar.

Forwarding this invitation could allow any recipient to send a response to  
the organizer and be added to the guest list, or invite others regardless  
of their own invitation status, or to modify your RSVP. Learn more at  
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v></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-seri=
f;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><sp=
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d style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;c=
olor:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.=
3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/=
Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Thomas Fossati</span>=
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serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></t=
d><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13=
px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.=
org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">mathias.brossard@=
arm.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"mathias.brossard@arm.com"=
/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=
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ns-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemt=
ype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notransla=
te">Pete Loscocco</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"pete.loscocco@g=
mail.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-righ=
t:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><=
div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monos=
pace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family=
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ope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"=
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s.fossati@arm.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"pad=
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h:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier =
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dent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attende=
e" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" =
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nt=3D"andrew.guinn@jhuapl.edu"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td =
style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;col=
or:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-fam=
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ight:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div styl=
e=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itempro=
p=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itempr=
op=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Ned Smith</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" =
content=3D"ned.smith@intel.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td=
 style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;co=
lor:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-=
right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div sty=
le=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itempr=
op=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemp=
rop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Henk Birkholz</span><meta itemprop=3D"em=
ail" content=3D"henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"/></span></div></div></div>=
</td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;=
font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td =
style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;col=
or:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3e=
m 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Pe=
rson"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">shwethab@cisco.com</spa=
n><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"shwethab@cisco.com"/></span></div></d=
iv></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sa=
ns-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1=
px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div>=
</td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size=
:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://sche=
ma.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">dthaler@micros=
oft.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"dthaler@microsoft.com"/><=
/span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-=
family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D=
"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x202=
2;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-=
serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=
=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate"=
>Peter Loscocco</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"palosco@tycho.nsa=
.gov"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10=
px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div =
style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace=
">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Ari=
al,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope =
itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notr=
anslate">Helble, Sarah C.</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"sarah.h=
elble@jhuapl.edu"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr></table></td></tr></t=
able><div style=3D"float:right;font-weight:bold;font-size:13px"> <a href=3D=
"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DVIEW&amp;eid=3DNGxjcmowdnNz=
azA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYW=
lsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWVlMDJjZTMzN2Q0NDBhZTM3MjNhNWNiZTQ&amp;ctz=3DAme=
rica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowr=
ap" itemprop=3D"url">more details &raquo;</a><br></div><div style=3D"paddin=
g-bottom:15px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;white-=
space:pre-wrap!important;white-space:-moz-pre-wrap!important;white-space:-p=
re-wrap!important;white-space:-o-pre-wrap!important;white-space:pre;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><span><dd>Meeting link:<br></dd><dd><dl><dd><a href=3D"https=
://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fietf.webex.com%2Fietf%2Fj.php%3FMTI=
D%3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25&amp;sa=3DD&amp;ust=3D1593356484628000=
&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2vBG4pPqC0HggoYBMeuEe9" target=3D"_blank">https://ietf.web=
ex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25</a></dd><dt>Meet=
ing number:</dt><dd>610 366 750</dd><dt>Password:</dt><dd>4vY2aS6X8DF</dd><=
dt>Host key:</dt><dd>820822</dd></dl><br><br><h5>More ways to join</h5></dd=
></span><meta itemprop=3D"description" content=3D"Meeting link:https://ietf=
.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25Meeting numbe=
r:610 366 750Password:4vY2aS6X8DFHost key:820822More ways to join"/></div><=
/div><p style=3D"color:#222;font-size:13px;margin:0"><span style=3D"color:#=
888">Going (rats@ietf.org)?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><wbr>All events in this=
 series:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<strong><span itemprop=3D"potentialaction" itemsc=
ope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta itemprop=3D"attendance"=
 content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/Yes"/><span itemprop=3D"handle=
r" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHandler"><link itempro=
p=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GET"/><a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&amp;eid=3DNGxjcmowdnN=
zazA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;rst=3D1&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoY=
XJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWVlMDJjZTMzN2Q0NDBhZTM3MjNhNWNiZTQ&=
amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;whi=
te-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">Yes</a></span></span><span style=3D"margi=
n:0 0.4em;font-weight:normal"> - </span><span itemprop=3D"potentialaction" =
itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta itemprop=3D"atten=
dance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/Maybe"/><span itemprop=
=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHandler"><li=
nk itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GET"/><a=
 href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&amp;eid=3DN=
GxjcmowdnNzazA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;rst=3D3&amp;tok=
=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWVlMDJjZTMzN2Q0NDBhZTM3=
MjNhNWNiZTQ&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=3D"co=
lor:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">Maybe</a></span></span><span =
style=3D"margin:0 0.4em;font-weight:normal"> - </span><span itemprop=3D"pot=
entialaction" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta ite=
mprop=3D"attendance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/No"/><span=
 itemprop=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHan=
dler"><link itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod=
/GET"/><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&am=
p;eid=3DNGxjcmowdnNzazA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;rst=3D2&=
amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWVlMDJjZTMzN2Q0N=
DBhZTM3MjNhNWNiZTQ&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" styl=
e=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">No</a></span></span></=
strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calen=
dar/event?action=3DVIEW&amp;eid=3DNGxjcmowdnNzazA5Y2tqNW5mOXJrMmgxZzkgcmF0c=
0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbWU2NTk2ODcyODUyYmVlNWV=
lMDJjZTMzN2Q0NDBhZTM3MjNhNWNiZTQ&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&am=
p;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">more opt=
ions &raquo;</a></p></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"background-color:#f6f6f6;col=
or:#888;border-top:1px Solid #ccc;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:11=
px"><p>Invitation from <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/" target=
=3D"_blank" style=3D"">Google Calendar</a></p><p>You are receiving this cou=
rtesy email at the account rats@ietf.org because you are an attendee of thi=
s event.</p><p>To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline thi=
s event. Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at https://www.=
google.com/calendar/ and control your notification settings for your entire=
 calendar.</p><p>Forwarding this invitation could allow any recipient to se=
nd a response to the organizer and be added to the guest list, or invite ot=
hers regardless of their own invitation status, or to modify your RSVP. <a =
href=3D"https://support.google.com/calendar/answer/37135#forwarding">Learn =
More</a>.</p></td></tr></table></div></span></span>
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DESCRIPTION:<dd>Meeting link:<br></dd><dd><dl><dd><a href="https://ietf.web
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 join</h5></dd>\n\n-::~:~::~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~
 :~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-\nPlease do not edit this section of the desc
 ription.\n\nThis event has a video call.\nJoin: https://meet.google.com/tju
 -xpot-axd\n\nView your event at https://www.google.com/calendar/event?actio
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 ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-
LAST-MODIFIED:20200623T150123Z
LOCATION:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452
 794c25\, 
SEQUENCE:0
STATUS:CONFIRMED
SUMMARY:RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time
TRANSP:OPAQUE
END:VEVENT
END:VCALENDAR

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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "mcharlesr@gmail.com" <mcharlesr@gmail.com>, "prowe@mitre.org" <prowe@mitre.org>, "elear@cisco.com" <elear@cisco.com>, "mdb@juniper.net" <mdb@juniper.net>, "ncamwing@cisco.com" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, Nicolae Paladi <nicolae.paladi@ri.se>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "lgl@island-resort.com" <lgl@island-resort.com>, Thomas Hardjono <ietf-rats@hardjono.net>, "blueroofmusic@gmail.com" <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Thomas Fossati <tho@koanlogic.com>, "mathias.brossard@arm.com" <mathias.brossard@arm.com>, Pete Loscocco <pete.loscocco@gmail.com>, Thomas Fossati <thomas.fossati@arm.com>, "Guinn, Andrew L." <andrew.guinn@jhuapl.edu>, Ned Smith <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "shwethab@cisco.com" <shwethab@cisco.com>, Peter Loscocco <palosco@tycho.nsa.gov>, "Helble, Sarah C." <sarah.helble@jhuapl.edu>
Thread-Topic: Invitation: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time @ Weekly from 10:00 to 11:00 on Friday from Fri 2020-06-26 to Tue 2020-06-30 (EDT) (dthaler@microsoft.com)
Thread-Index: AQHWSW8ssl+wVcSSIkqq8+X1TfesuKjmTGfw
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:06:14 +0000
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From nobody Wed Jun 24 08:08:25 2020
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Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Data Model for Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Procedures using TPMs
        Authors         : Henk Birkholz
                          Michael Eckel
                          Shwetha Bhandari
                          Bill Sulzen
                          Eric Voit
                          Liang Xia (Frank)
                          Tom Laffey
                          Guy C. Fedorkow
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-02.txt
	Pages           : 45
	Date            : 2020-06-24

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG RPC and a minimal datastore tree
   required to retrieve attestation evidence about integrity
   measurements from a composite device with one or more roots of trust
   for reporting.  Complementary measurement logs are also provided by
   the YANG RPC originating from one or more roots of trust of
   measurement.  The module defined requires at least one TPM 1.2 or TPM
   2.0 and corresponding Trusted Software Stack included in the device
   components of the composite device the YANG server is running on.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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Hi All,

This draft defines how to subscribe to a stream of attestation related 
Evidence on TPM-based network devices.  When subscribed, a Telemetry stream of 
verifiably fresh YANG notifications (which are generated when TPM PCRs are 
extended) are pushed to the subscriber.

This draft integrates:
 *  Section 5 of draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing-01
 *  Elements of draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model

Thanks!

Eric, Henk, and Wei


-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 12:19 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Wei Pan <william.panwei@huawei.com>; 
Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Eric Voit and posted to the IETF 
repository.

Name:		draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription
Revision:	00
Title:		Attestation Event Stream Subscription
Document date:	2020-06-24
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		20
URL: 
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription-00.txt
Status: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription/
Htmlized: 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription-00
Htmlized: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-birkholz-rats-network-device-subscription


Abstract:
   This document defines how to subscribe to a stream of attestation
   related Evidence on TPM-based network devices.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission 
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing updated
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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2020 01:11:29 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing updated
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Updates from v02 of draft-voit-rats-trusted-path-routing go into 
draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing-00  (I needed to do a file rename due 
to an IETF submission glitch).  Changes include:

   o  Added timing diagram that aligns to the architecture draft and the 
interaction model draft.
   o  The Attester's AIK is included within the Stamped Passport.  This 
eliminates the need to provision to AIK certificate on the Relying  Party.
   o  YANG modules integrate fully with charra as well as NETCONF cryptotypes 
and keystores.

Thanks,
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:20 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Eric Voit and posted to the IETF 
repository.

Name:		draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing
Revision:	00
Title:		Trusted Path Routing
Document date:	2020-06-25
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		26
URL: 
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing-00.txt
Status: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing/
Htmlized: 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing-00
Htmlized: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voit-rats-trustworthy-path-routing


Abstract:
   There are end-users who believe encryption technologies like IPSec
   alone are insufficient to protect the confidentiality of their highly
   sensitive traffic flows.  These end-users want their flows to
   traverse devices which have been freshly appraised and verified.
   This specification describes Trusted Path Routing.  Trusted Path
   Routing protects sensitive flows as they transit a network by
   forwarding traffic to/from sensitive subnets across network devices
   recently appraised as trustworthy.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission 
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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From nobody Sat Jun 27 01:30:28 2020
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Subject: [Rats] [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF108: DRAFT AGENDA
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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA
for IETF108.  Remember that there is still quite some potential for
changes.

Conflicts that meet the eye:  LAKE/SUIT (!). ACE/RATS.  (I think
6LO/COSE can be ignored.)  HACKATHON is on top of CORE, but I don't
know what that slot on Friday is supposed to be.

All times appear to be in UTC, even though nothing says so;
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc gives the same times.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

MONDAY, July 27, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 1    	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG
Rm 5    	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Research Group
Rm 2    	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 4    	ART ***	cbor	Concise Binary Object Representation =
Maintenance and Extensions WG
Rm 6    	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Rm 2    	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Rm 5    	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 5    	ART	webtrans	WebTransport WG
Rm 4    	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Research Group
Rm 2    	SEC	gnap	Grant Negotiation and Authorization =
Protocol WG

TUESDAY, July 28, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 1    	ART ***	asdf	A Semantic Definition Format for Data =
and Interactions of Things BOF
Rm 2    	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Rm 3    	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Rm 8    	TSV	masque	Multiplexed Application Substrate over =
QUIC Encryption WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 4    	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 4    	SEC ***	lake	Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange =
WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG
Rm 2    	TSV	loops	Local Optimizations on Path Segments BOF

WEDNESDAY, July 29, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 5    	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Rm 4    	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Rm 3    	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG
Rm 2    	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 6    	ART	webtrans	WebTransport WG
Rm 2    	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Rm 4    	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG
Rm 5    	SEC ***	cose	CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG
Rm 1    	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

THURSDAY, July 30, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 6    	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Rm 4    	RTG	raw	Reliable and Available Wireless WG
Rm 5    	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG
Rm 2    	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 3    	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Rm 2    	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 6    	INT	add	Adaptive DNS Discovery WG
Rm 7    	INT ***	drip	Drone Remote ID Protocol WG
Rm 4    	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG

FRIDAY, July 31, 2020

1100-1240  Session I
Rm 8    	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Rm 6    	GEN	hackathon	Hackathon
Rm 2    	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Rm 1    	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1300-1350  Session II
Rm 3    	ART	wpack	Web Packaging WG
Rm 4    	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Rm 6    	SEC	emu	EAP Method Update WG

1410-1550  Session III
Rm 1    	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Rm 7    	IRTF	coinrg	Computing in the Network Research Group
Rm 3    	SEC	privacypass	Privacy Pass WG


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Subject: [Rats] Verifier Input instead of Endorsement?
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Stepping back a bit on the definition of an Endorsement, I think the =
four inputs to a Verifier are these:
  - Key material for verifying trust in the Attester
  - Known-good/Reference values for comparison with claims
  - Static implicit claims that are passed to RP's via Attestation =
Results
  - Appraisal Policy

These can and will be conveyed to the Verifier in many different ways:
  - X.509 certs with extensions
  - Signed documents
  - HTTP queries against the Attester/device manufacturer
  - Remote SQL or some other sort of database access to manufacturer(s)
  - Data storage like flash drives the are hand carried into the =
Verifier's site
  - One-time special file transfers
  - Ceremonial procedures with M out of N people physical present =
approving transfer

It seems like shoe-horning all of the above (except policy) into an =
Endorsement, like I=E2=80=99ve tried to do =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/94>  is too much. I =
tried this shoe-horning because I think the architecture document needs =
to cover all this and Endorsements was what was in it. A typical =
Endorsement seems to be just the first two mentioned, X.509 and signed =
documents expanding its definition to include database access is a =
stretch.

Rather than defining Endorsement, I=E2=80=99d like to define Verifier =
Input:

          *******************   ************     ****************
          * Manufacturer(s) *   * Verifier *     * Relying Party*
          *******************   *  Owner   *     *  Owner       *
                       |        ************     ****************
                       |              |                 |
         Verifier Input|              |                 |
                       |              |Appraisal        |
                       |              |Policy           |
                       |              |for              | Appraisal
                       |              |Evidence         | Policy for
                       |              |                 | Attestation
                       |              |                 |  Result
                       v              v                 |
                     .-----------------.                |
              .----->|     Verifier    |------.         |
              |      '-----------------'      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                    Attestation|         |
              |                    Results    |         |
              | Evidence                      |         |
              |                               |         |
              |                               v         v
        .----------.                      .-----------------.
        | Attester |                      | Relying Party   |
        '----------'                      '=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=98



Endorsements must still be mentioned, but as one form of Verifier input =
just like EAT is one form of Attestation Evidence.

Verifier Input would be defined as:
  - Key material for verifying trust in the Attester
  - Known-good/Reference values for comparison with claims
  - Static implicit claims that are passed to RP's via Attestation =
Results

To do this, I=E2=80=99d replace the current PR =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/94> and issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/65> I have on =
Endorsements with a new PR. It will be a fair bit of work, so I want to =
see if there is some consensus first.

LL






--Apple-Mail=_D001EE9C-4296-4B01-BFFD-181981872EED
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Stepping back a bit on the =
definition of an Endorsement, I think the four inputs to a Verifier are =
these:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; - Key material for verifying trust in the =
Attester<br class=3D"">&nbsp; - Known-good/Reference values for =
comparison with claims<br class=3D"">&nbsp; - Static implicit claims =
that are passed to RP's via Attestation Results<br class=3D"">&nbsp; - =
Appraisal Policy<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">These=
 can and will be conveyed to the Verifier in many different =
ways:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - X.509 certs with =
extensions</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Signed documents</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; - HTTP queries against the Attester/device =
manufacturer</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Remote SQL or some other sort =
of database access to manufacturer(s)</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Data =
storage like flash drives the are hand carried into the Verifier's =
site</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - One-time special file =
transfers</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Ceremonial procedures with M out =
of N people physical present approving transfer</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It seems like shoe-horning all of the =
above (except policy) into an Endorsement,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/94" =
class=3D"">like I=E2=80=99ve tried to do</a>&nbsp; is too much. I tried =
this shoe-horning because I think the architecture document needs to =
cover all this and Endorsements was what was in it. A typical =
Endorsement seems to be just the first two mentioned, X.509 and signed =
documents expanding its definition to include database access is a =
stretch.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Rather =
than defining Endorsement, I=E2=80=99d like to define Verifier =
Input:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; ******************* &nbsp; ************ &nbsp; &nbsp; =
****************</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Manufacturer(s) * &nbsp; =
* Verifier * &nbsp; &nbsp; * Relying Party*</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; ******************* &nbsp; * &nbsp;Owner &nbsp; * &nbsp; =
&nbsp; * &nbsp;Owner &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; *</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;************ &nbsp; &nbsp; =
****************</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Verifier Input| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;|Appraisal &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|Policy &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;|for &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
Appraisal</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;|Evidence &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Policy =
for</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | =
Attestation</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | =
&nbsp;Result</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;v &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;v &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;.-----------------. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .-----&gt;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Verifier &nbsp; &nbsp;|------. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;'-----------------' &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Attestation| &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Results =
&nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Evidence &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; v &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; v</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; .----------. =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;.-----------------.</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | Attester | =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| Relying Party &nbsp; |</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier New" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; '----------' =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;'=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=98</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Endorsements must still be mentioned, but as one form of =
Verifier input just like EAT is one form of Attestation =
Evidence.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Verifier Input would be defined as:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 - Key material for verifying trust in the Attester<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
- Known-good/Reference values for comparison with claims<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; - Static implicit claims that are passed to RP's via =
Attestation Results</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To do this, I=E2=80=99d replace the current&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/94" =
class=3D"">PR</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/65" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;I have on Endorsements with a new PR. It will =
be a fair bit of work, so I want to see if there is some consensus =
first.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_D001EE9C-4296-4B01-BFFD-181981872EED--


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Verifier Input instead of Endorsement?
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Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 03:56:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Verifier Input instead of Endorsement?
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Subject: [Rats] Invitation: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time @ Weekly from 10:00 to 11:00 on Tuesday, Friday from Tue 2020-06-23 to Tue 2020-07-14 (EDT) (rats@ietf.org)
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You have been invited to the following event.

Title: RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time
Meeting  
link:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25Meeting  
number:610 366 750Password:4vY2aS6X8DFHost key:820822More ways to join
When: Weekly from 10:00 to 11:00 on Tuesday, Friday from Tue 2020-06-23 to  
Tue 2020-07-14 Eastern Time - Toronto
Where:  
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25,

Joining info: Join with Google Meet
https://meet.google.com/voo-ixyf-kii

Calendar: rats@ietf.org
Who:
     * mcharlesr@gmail.com - organizer
     * prowe@mitre.org
     * elear@cisco.com
     * mdb@juniper.net
     * ncamwing@cisco.com
     * Nicolae Paladi
     * rats@ietf.org
     * jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
     * lgl@island-resort.com
     * Thomas Hardjono
     * blueroofmusic@gmail.com
     * Thomas Fossati
     * mathias.brossard@arm.com
     * Pete Loscocco
     * Thomas Fossati
     * Guinn, Andrew L.
     * Ned Smith
     * Henk Birkholz
     * shwethab@cisco.com
     * dthaler@microsoft.com
     * Peter Loscocco
     * Helble, Sarah C.

Event details:  
https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=VIEW&eid=MGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&tok=MTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwYTQyOWVkZWVlOTUyMmJmMjMyMDMwMGFlZTdjYjVmMmQwMGU&ctz=America%2FToronto&hl=en&es=0

Invitation from Google Calendar: https://www.google.com/calendar/

You are receiving this courtesy email at the account rats@ietf.org because  
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To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline this event.  
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r:#888;white-space:nowrap;width:90px" valign=3D"top"><div><i style=3D"font-=
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on"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">mdb@juniper.net</span><me=
ta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"mdb@juniper.net"/></span></div></div></div=
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;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td=
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em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/P=
erson"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">ncamwing@cisco.com</sp=
an><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"ncamwing@cisco.com"/></span></div></=
div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,S=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-=
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ema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Nicolae Palad=
i</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"nicolae.paladi@ri.se"/></span><=
/div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:=
Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-i=
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indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</sp=
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nogh@qti.qualcomm.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"jodonogh@qt=
i.qualcomm.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"paddin=
g-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:1=
0px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New=
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t:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" =
itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" cla=
ss=3D"notranslate">lgl@island-resort.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" con=
tent=3D"lgl@island-resort.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td =
style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;col=
or:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-fam=
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e=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itempro=
p=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itempr=
op=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Thomas Hardjono</span><meta itemprop=3D"e=
mail" content=3D"ietf-rats@hardjono.net"/></span></div></div></div></td></t=
r><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=
=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#2=
22"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0">=
<span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"=
><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</spa=
n><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"blueroofmusic@gmail.com"/></span></di=
v></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Ari=
al,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-inde=
nt:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span><=
/div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font=
-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http:/=
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ssati</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"tho@koanlogic.com"/></span>=
</div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family=
:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-=
indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</sp=
an></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;=
font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"h=
ttp://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">math=
ias.brossard@arm.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"mathias.bros=
sard@arm.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-=
right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10p=
x"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,m=
onospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-fa=
mily:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:=
-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" it=
emscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=
=3D"notranslate">Pete Loscocco</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"pe=
te.loscocco@gmail.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D=
"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;=
width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Cour=
ier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10p=
x;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"tex=
t-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"att=
endee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"na=
me" class=3D"notranslate">Thomas Fossati</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" con=
tent=3D"thomas.fossati@arm.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td=
 style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;co=
lor:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-=
right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div sty=
le=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itempr=
op=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemp=
rop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Guinn, Andrew L.</span><meta itemprop=3D=
"email" content=3D"andrew.guinn@jhuapl.edu"/></span></div></div></div></td>=
</tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-=
size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=
=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#2=
22"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0">=
<span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"=
><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Ned Smith</span><meta itempr=
op=3D"email" content=3D"ned.smith@intel.com"/></span></div></div></div></td=
></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font=
-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td styl=
e=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#=
222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"=
><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person=
"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">Henk Birkholz</span><meta i=
temprop=3D"email" content=3D"henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"/></span></div=
></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Aria=
l,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-inden=
t:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></=
div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-=
size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://=
schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate">shwethab@c=
isco.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"shwethab@cisco.com"/></s=
pan></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-fa=
mily:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"t=
ext-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;=
</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-se=
rif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" itemscope itemtype=
=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=3D"notranslate"=
>dthaler@microsoft.com</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"dthaler@mi=
crosoft.com"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-r=
ight:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px=
"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,mo=
nospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-fam=
ily:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-=
1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attendee" ite=
mscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" class=
=3D"notranslate">Peter Loscocco</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"p=
alosco@tycho.nsa.gov"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"=
padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;w=
idth:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Couri=
er New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px=
;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text=
-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"atte=
ndee" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"nam=
e" class=3D"notranslate">Helble, Sarah C.</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" co=
ntent=3D"sarah.helble@jhuapl.edu"/></span></div></div></div></td></tr></tab=
le></td></tr></table><div style=3D"float:right;font-weight:bold;font-size:1=
3px"> <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DVIEW&amp;ei=
d=3DMGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;tok=3DMTkjbW=
NoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwYTQyOWVkZWVlOTUyMmJmMjMyMDMwMGFlZTdjYjVmMmQwM=
GU&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;=
white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">more details &raquo;</a><br></div><div=
 style=3D"padding-bottom:15px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;c=
olor:#222;white-space:pre-wrap!important;white-space:-moz-pre-wrap!importan=
t;white-space:-pre-wrap!important;white-space:-o-pre-wrap!important;white-s=
pace:pre;word-wrap:break-word"><span><dd>Meeting link:<br></dd><dd><dl><dd>=
<a href=3D"https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fietf.webex.com%2Fie=
tf%2Fj.php%3FMTID%3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25&amp;sa=3DD&amp;ust=3D=
1593970707905000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw32cUas8BjLlM4ZK6cnQLII" target=3D"_blank">=
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25<=
/a></dd><dt>Meeting number:</dt><dd>610 366 750</dd><dt>Password:</dt><dd>4=
vY2aS6X8DF</dd><dt>Host key:</dt><dd>820822</dd></dl><br><br><h5>More ways =
to join</h5></dd></span><meta itemprop=3D"description" content=3D"Meeting l=
ink:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794=
c25Meeting number:610 366 750Password:4vY2aS6X8DFHost key:820822More ways t=
o join"/></div></div><p style=3D"color:#222;font-size:13px;margin:0"><span =
style=3D"color:#888">Going (rats@ietf.org)?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><wbr>Al=
l events in this series:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<strong><span itemprop=3D"potenti=
alaction" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta itempro=
p=3D"attendance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/Yes"/><span it=
emprop=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHandle=
r"><link itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GE=
T"/><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&amp;e=
id=3DMGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;rst=3D1&amp=
;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwYTQyOWVkZWVlOTUyMmJmMjMyMDMwMGFl=
ZTdjYjVmMmQwMGU&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=
=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">Yes</a></span></span><s=
pan style=3D"margin:0 0.4em;font-weight:normal"> - </span><span itemprop=3D=
"potentialaction" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta=
 itemprop=3D"attendance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/Maybe"=
/><span itemprop=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpAc=
tionHandler"><link itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpReques=
tMethod/GET"/><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRES=
POND&amp;eid=3DMGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;r=
st=3D3&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwYTQyOWVkZWVlOTUyMmJmMj=
MyMDMwMGFlZTdjYjVmMmQwMGU&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D=
0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">Maybe</a></span=
></span><span style=3D"margin:0 0.4em;font-weight:normal"> - </span><span i=
temprop=3D"potentialaction" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAct=
ion"><meta itemprop=3D"attendance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttenda=
nce/No"/><span itemprop=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org=
/HttpActionHandler"><link itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/Htt=
pRequestMethod/GET"/><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?actio=
n=3DRESPOND&amp;eid=3DMGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZ=
w&amp;rst=3D2&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwYTQyOWVkZWVlOTU=
yMmJmMjMyMDMwMGFlZTdjYjVmMmQwMGU&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&amp;hl=3Den&am=
p;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">No</a></=
span></span></strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr><a href=3D"https://www.go=
ogle.com/calendar/event?action=3DVIEW&amp;eid=3DMGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJ=
lbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbThkMDYwY=
TQyOWVkZWVlOTUyMmJmMjMyMDMwMGFlZTdjYjVmMmQwMGU&amp;ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&=
amp;hl=3Den&amp;es=3D0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D=
"url">more options &raquo;</a></p></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"background-col=
or:#f6f6f6;color:#888;border-top:1px Solid #ccc;font-family:Arial,Sans-seri=
f;font-size:11px"><p>Invitation from <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/cale=
ndar/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"">Google Calendar</a></p><p>You are recei=
ving this courtesy email at the account rats@ietf.org because you are an at=
tendee of this event.</p><p>To stop receiving future updates for this event=
, decline this event. Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at=
 https://www.google.com/calendar/ and control your notification settings fo=
r your entire calendar.</p><p>Forwarding this invitation could allow any re=
cipient to send a response to the organizer and be added to the guest list,=
 or invite others regardless of their own invitation status, or to modify y=
our RSVP. <a href=3D"https://support.google.com/calendar/answer/37135#forwa=
rding">Learn More</a>.</p></td></tr></table></div></span></span>
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ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
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ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
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ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
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ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
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ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE
 ;CN=mcharlesr@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:mcharlesr@gmail.com
X-MICROSOFT-CDO-OWNERAPPTID:-814265952
CREATED:20200630T173826Z
DESCRIPTION:<dd>Meeting link:<br></dd><dd><dl><dd><a href="https://ietf.web
 ex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25" target="_blank">h
 ttps://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452794c25</a>
 </dd><dt>Meeting number:</dt><dd>610 366 750</dd><dt>Password:</dt><dd>4vY2
 aS6X8DF</dd><dt>Host key:</dt><dd>820822</dd></dl><br><br><h5>More ways to 
 join</h5></dd>\n\n-::~:~::~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~
 :~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-\nPlease do not edit this section of the desc
 ription.\n\nThis event has a video call.\nJoin: https://meet.google.com/voo
 -ixyf-kii\n\nView your event at https://www.google.com/calendar/event?actio
 n=VIEW&eid=MGw5aDlkdW1yNDA2aDN0ZWt0aTJlbjM5Z2IgcmF0c0BpZXRmLm9yZw&tok=MTkjb
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 ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-
LAST-MODIFIED:20200630T173827Z
LOCATION:https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m4c3d7395a15dad1ed8c0f95452
 794c25\, 
SEQUENCE:0
STATUS:CONFIRMED
SUMMARY:RATS Architecture Design Team weekly meeting time
TRANSP:OPAQUE
END:VEVENT
END:VCALENDAR

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/HE70JilffsHnOfs9ONLV6XoSKz4>
Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Architecture continued
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Subject: [Rats] should Evidence containers be explicit about Personally Identiable Information?
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The architecture design team is working hard to come to consensus!
We discussed for a few minutes an aside comment I had made about some text we
just added about keeping sensitive Evidence private.

Thomas Fossati has just included some of Kathleen's comments as a new ticket:

    > Kathleen's review [part 2](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/7-UJAqHPMLhrGCk9tyh3JqGu8rw/)

    > Further privacy considerations:
    > * Remote attestation also provides a way to profile systems as well as
    > the user behind that system.
    > * If attestation results go higher in the stack to include containers
    > and applications, it could reveal even more about a system or user.

...

I had asked in my aside, if the *ARCHITECTURE* document should create a
requirement on Evidence (such as EAT) that it should *explicitely* flag when
it contains PII.

There are three pieces to this.
Let's start with the Evidence container, and use as an example:
  1) A claim about a device serial number,
  2) or a claim about a device location

a) PII could be implicit.
  The Verifier could just know this fact.
  That would be implicit: serial numbers are PII, device location is PII.
  Even if the device is a water-tower or a lighthouse. [cf:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend ]
  The onus is now on the Verifier to ALWAYS know everything about every claim.
  Even ones it does not understand or use.
  This may have impacts upon audit trails, and who can see those audit trails.

b) PII could be explicit.
   The Attester would mark the claim with a flag, "pii: true" or something
   when it fills out a claim with data that it thinks is PII.
   This allows the Attester to mark every piece of data that might be
   sensitive as such, even if they are newly standardized claims that not
   every Verifier even uses.  {The lighthouse in the joke above, might decide
   that it's location is not PII}
   This relieves the Verifier from having to know the PII status of every
   item.

   (It is likely that "pii: true" would be the default, and pii:false
   would have to explicit, or rather, that the inverse: "public: true" would
   be what would be flagged)

An Evidence container, (such as EAT) could standardize the above.
We could debate this when we get to LC on EAT.
Another container (PKIX) might not.  This could be annoying.

So part of my question was should we debate this now, and make this an
architectural requirement for all containers?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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