From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 3 01:33:33 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17885 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25372; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25292 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.sirius.com (mail1.sirius.com [205.134.253.131]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15708 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from axlotl (ppp-sfx201--036.sirius.net [205.134.235.36] (may be forged)) by mail1.sirius.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA84420; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:01:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000102214138.00c26e00@pop.well.com> X-Sender: gbroiles@mail.wenet.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 22:00:42 -0800 To: Chris Savage From: Greg Broiles Cc: "IETF Wiretapping List (E-mail)" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raven] IP-tapping - easy or hard? Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 04:54 AM 12/30/99 , Chris Savage wrote: >Am I correct? When, if ever, would an Internet entity have information >about a subject's transmissions that would not be obtainable by a LEA simply >tapping the carrier-provided link between the subject and the Internet? It's relatively difficult to wiretap a conversation between two modern (e.g., transmission rate > 1200 bps) modems because of the fancy audio tricks they use to encode the data they're passing - the characteristics of the link between the modems is negotiated dynamically during the connection, and depends on the conditions at each end of the connection. Further, it's necessary to decode several layers of protocols - e.g., at the most basic level, analog audio signals are used to represent digital data. That digital data likely consists of low-level packets (this is handled inside the modems) which facilitate data compression and error-correction at the modem level; those packets consist of data sent between (in a typical or canonical implementation) serial ports, which themselves constitute a PPP session; on top of that PPP session, you've got IP packets, many of which are likely to contain ICMP or UDP or TCP packets, which can then be assembled into sessions used by application (like email or web or audio traffic). There are reportedly boxes priced in the tens of thousands of dollars which can perform the above processes - I don't know how well they work, or how widely they're deployed in law enforcement. In the context of traditional analog lines, it's easy and cheap to wiretap voice conversations, and appreciably more difficult and expensive to wiretap modem conversations. If an eavesdropper can force one end of a modem conversation to cooperate with surveillance activity, their job is much cheaper and simpler, as the required facilities and capabilities already exist. Further, the above description assumes that there's been no attempt to preserve privacy - a subscriber operating in a privacy-sensitive environment might choose to negotiate a Diffie-Hellman key exchange with their ISP (I anticipate that this sort of consumer-level VPN setup will become more common/necessary, as deregulation and mandatory competition come to traditional service providers) that would make their communications unreadable to third parties. The historical model where one business entity provides connectivity to the internet and email access and webserver space is changing - for example, I switch between ISP's with some frequency, but depend on third parties (and my own colocated hardware) for service other than IP transport. I predict that this model will become more popular, as market participants choose to specialize, and bare IP transport starts to look more like a commodity service and less like a specialty service. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles@netbox.com PGP: 0x26E4488C _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Tue Jan 4 13:56:21 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03969 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00711; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00685 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailman.cisco.com (mailman.cisco.com [171.68.225.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03783 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from chsharp-tecra (chsharp-isdn.cisco.com [171.68.116.221]) by mailman.cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id KAA19851 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:39:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000104131744.00a7b990@dogwood.cisco.com> X-Sender: chsharp@dogwood.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:32:51 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Chip Sharp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raven] US Electronic Surveillance efforts (and IETF) Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org FYI, In the US, committee T1P1 currently has an ad-hoc working group set up to discuss packet mode electronic surveillance. Their primary interest is wireless (since T1P1 deals primarily with wireless) but they are looking at other issues as well. Committee T1S1 seems to be trying to set up an ad-hoc group to deal with this issue as well to work in conjunction with the T1P1 group. TIA TR45.2 is continuing their work on a US "safe harbor" electronic surveillance standard. They issued the first interim standard on this issue (J-STD-025). They are focusing primarily on the punch list that was identified in the FCC's last ruling. This involves voice and certain supplementary services. In addition, PacketCable is defining specs for electronic surveillance for packet-mode voice. These may be release to the public, but I can't say for sure. If anyone else knows for sure, they can post. These efforts are basically focused on delivering either "call identifying information" or the whole data stream to an LEA (Law Enforcement Agency). The definition of "call identifying information" is a little fuzzy when it comes to IP. US standards groups are defining standards for packet mode electronic surveillance. They do not care whether or not the IETF does anything. It is my guess that other countries will do the same. Since IETF is an international organization it would be difficult to deal with every country. Could our friends from other parts of the globe describe the work going on in their countries/regions? Thanks, Chip Support NetAid! http://www.netaid.org -------------------------------------------------- Chip Sharp Consulting Engineering Cisco Systems Telco Bio-region Reality - Love it or Leave it. -------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 10:08:50 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02204 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18000; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17976 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from hubbub.cisco.com (hubbub.cisco.com [171.69.11.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01890 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ORANLT ([171.69.210.5]) by hubbub.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.2-SunOS.5.5.1.sun4/CISCO.GATE.1.1) with SMTP id GAA02948 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:44:43 -0800 (PST) From: "David Oran" To: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Delivered-To: ip-sub-1-outgoing@listbox.com >Delivered-To: ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com >From: "David Farber" >To: "ip" >Subject: IP: Russia spies on its own people >Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:35:51 -0500 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) >Importance: Normal >Sender: owner-ip-sub-1@admin.listbox.com >Reply-To: farber@cis.upenn.edu >X-SMTP-HELO: admin.listbox.com >X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: owner-ip-sub-1-outgoing@listbox.com >X-SMAP-Received-From: outside >X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: admin.listbox.com [208.210.124.36] > > >St. Petersburg Times >January 14, 2000 >Russia's Electronic Police Get Carte Blanche >By Jen Tracy >STAFF WRITER > >Under an obscure bit of legislation quietly approved by acting President >Vladimir Putin, the nation's major law enforcement and security bodies - >from the tax police to the Border Guards - are to be technically equipped >to enjoy instant real-time access to e-mail and other electronic traffic. > >Seven law enforcement bodies named in the new law are now to join the >Federal Security Service - the main KGB successor agency and acting >President Putin's alma mater - in being hard-wired to Russia's Internet >service providers. > >These authorities are still required by the Russian Constitution to obtain >a court warrant before tapping phones, opening e-mails or accessing other >private correspondence between citizens or organizations. But for all of >them, e-mails, e-commerce transactions and other Internet traffic will be a >mere mouse-click away - easily perused without anyone ever knowing, >regardless of what the courts or the Constitution may say. > >"This means Russia has officially become a police state," Yelena Bonner, >the human rights activist and wife of the late Soviet dissident Andrei >Sakharov, said in a telephone interview on Wednesday from Boston, where she >has been visiting for the past few months. "And this wartime police state >came about unnoticed when Putin rose to power on Dec. 31." > >Putin signed the legislation - an amendment to the 1995 Law on Operational >Investigations that passed the State Duma on Dec. 1 - on Jan. 5. It took >force Jan. 6 upon publication in Rossiiskaya Gazeta, the official >government newspaper. > >The original 1995 law gave the security services the right to monitor all >sorts of correspondence, from postal deliveries to cell phone >conversations, provided they first obtained a warrant. > >With the growth of the Internet, the FSB and the State Communications >Committee have issued new regulations - based on their interpretation of >the 1995 law - that force Internet service providers to link their >computers to those at FSB headquarters. > >Internet service providers do not like to talk about the FSB's so-called >SORM project - the acronym stands for Sistema Operativno-Rozysknykh >Meropriyatii, or System for Operational-Investigative Activities. But many >of them have already quietly complied. > >The costs to the Internet service provider of installing the equipment are >estimated from $10,000 to $30,000, not including any future upgrades. >That's enough to shut down some smaller providers, and some SORM-watchers >argue that the big Internet players actually welcome SORM as it helps them >consolidate their market share. > >The new amendment doesn't mention SORM by name or detail the new technical >requirements for Internet service providers. But it does extend the FSB's >hard-wired access to electronic traffic to seven other agencies: the tax >police, the Interior Ministry, the Border Guards, the Customs Committee, >the Kremlin security service, the presidential security service, the >parliamentary security services and the Foreign Intelligence Service, or >SVR. > >Internet experts interviewed on Wednesday said they expected the additional >security organs could simply piggy-back on the FSB's SORM technology, which >has already been installed at the expense - and expertise - of the >providers. > >Human rights activists worry that the FSB - and now the seven other >security organs - will not bother getting a court order when they can see >private information at a whim. And if once they placed some faint hopes on >the FSB simply not having the manpower to systematically track mass >quantities of e-mail and other traffic, the situation has drastically >changed now that eight security organs can in theory be working at once, >perhaps even in cooperation. > >"It was bad enough that the FSB had unlimited control over confidential >correspondence, and now it is multiplied eight times," said Boris >Pustintsev, chairman of St. Petersburg-based Citizens' Watch rights group. > >"The FSB alone had some problems implementing SORM as NGOs >[non-governmental organizations] were fighting it. Now, it will be routine >[to get SORM set up and functioning], as you can't fight a monster with >eight heads." > >The FSB says SORM will help law enforcement track and capture criminals >ranging from tax evaders to pedophiles, because such people may conduct or >discuss their business electronically. > >Human rights groups counter that the Russian security services are cannot >be trusted with such power. They argue that agents will abuse SORM to >assemble political dossiers and to steal and sell commercial secrets - >something that could line the pockets of agents and organizations who have >not fared well under post-Soviet budgets. > >In the nationally televised New Year's Eve address in which he acknowledged >Boris Yeltsin's resignation and took on the duties of the presidency, Putin >promised he would be a generous patron to Russia's security services. > >"The potential of the special services will not just be maintained but >increased," Putin pledged then. > >The FSB and the tax police did not reply to questions faxed by The St. >Petersburg Times. > > >Esther Dyson Always make new mistakes! > _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 11:05:33 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03184 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19708; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19678 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA02992 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:55:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001171555.KAA02992@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 20609 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jan 2000 15:55:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.167) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 17 Jan 2000 15:55:26 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:55:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jan 00, at 9:44, David Oran wrote: .. > >St. Petersburg Times > >January 14, 2000 > >Russia's Electronic Police Get Carte Blanche > >By Jen Tracy > >STAFF WRITER > > > >Under an obscure bit of legislation quietly approved by acting President > >Vladimir Putin, the nation's major law enforcement and security bodies - > >from the tax police to the Border Guards - are to be technically equipped > >to enjoy instant real-time access to e-mail and other electronic traffic. "Nice guy" Mr Putin, fortunately the Internet is a good medium to distribute this kind of knowledge about him. .. > >These authorities are still required by the Russian Constitution to obtain > >a court warrant before tapping phones, opening e-mails or accessing other > >private correspondence between citizens or organizations. But for all of > >them, e-mails, e-commerce transactions and other Internet traffic will be a > >mere mouse-click away - easily perused without anyone ever knowing, > >regardless of what the courts or the Constitution may say. I still think it cannot be said enough, the only way to encounter misuse is putting up standards that make it nearly impossible to do this with one mouseclick without traces. An auditable tapping standard is definitely needed. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 12:00:12 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03932 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA20690; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA20660 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03588 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:31:50 -0500 (EST) From: janne.haikonen@nokia.com Received: from mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com (mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com [131.228.118.60]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/o) with ESMTP id SAA26605; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:31:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh02nok.ntc.nokia.com (esebh02nok.ntc.nokia.com [131.228.118.151]) by mgw-i1.ntc.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07794; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:31:50 +0200 (EET) Received: by esebh02nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:31:49 +0200 Message-ID: <6D1A8E7871B9D211B3B00008C7490AA501A81FFD@treis03nok> To: chefren@pi.net, raven@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:31:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org > An auditable tapping standard is definitely needed. - And why exactly would Russian law enforcement start using your 'auditable tapping' standard, if they already have this easier system (and also their government and legistlation allows them to use non-auditable taps)? - As strong as possible end-to-end encryption is definitely needed! (BTW. Notice how even USA is loosening its export restrictions for strong cryptographic SW/HW... Quite contrary to you 'predictions'...). Just my personal opinions, Janne H. _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 12:19:20 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04315 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22043; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22027 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA04093 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:02:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001171702.MAA04093@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 24413 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jan 2000 17:02:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.167) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 17 Jan 2000 17:02:15 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:02:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <6D1A8E7871B9D211B3B00008C7490AA501A81FFD@treis03nok> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jan 00, at 18:31, janne.haikonen@nokia.com wrote: > > An auditable tapping standard is definitely needed. > > - And why exactly would Russian law enforcement start > using your 'auditable tapping' standard, if they already > have this easier system (and also their government and > legistlation allows them to use non-auditable taps)? The use of the auditable standard should be demanded by the international community. Unauditable taps are clearly unacceptable in the light of basic human rights. > - As strong as possible end-to-end encryption is definitely > needed! It's there, where are you asking for? If people think they need it they can use it, big majority doesn't use it, they think the net is secure enough. >(BTW. Notice how even USA is loosening its export > restrictions for strong cryptographic SW/HW... I think that's a small bubble compared to the entering big wave of non-techies that want a world with checks and balances. > Quite contrary to you 'predictions'...). Contrary to a strange explanation of my 'predictions", I have never argued stong encryption isn't valuable or not necessary. I only argue for regulation of strong encryption since free use would allow places to hide for organized crime. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 12:20:41 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04384 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22343; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22318 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from nix.swip.net (nix.swip.net [192.71.220.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04204 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bygg@localhost) by nix.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03787 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:10:00 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:09:59 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Eriksson To: raven@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001171702.MAA04093@ietf.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, chefren wrote: > > > An auditable tapping standard is definitely needed. > > > > - And why exactly would Russian law enforcement start > > using your 'auditable tapping' standard, if they already > > have this easier system (and also their government and > > legistlation allows them to use non-auditable taps)? > > The use of the auditable standard should be demanded by the > international community. Yeah, right. They can start by implementing it in Grozny. --Johnny _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 16:31:26 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09237 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28835; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28815 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08897 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01659 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:10:33 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000117160834.00994e40@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:09:15 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raven] Chefren ties Russian gov's hands Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Chefren wrote: "Nice guy" Mr Putin, fortunately the Internet is a good medium to distribute this kind of knowledge about him. And the fact that Russians know that their communications on the net have no protection from the renamed KGB is sure to encourge Russian people to carry out a dialog in support of democracy! ;-) But not to fear. Chefren has an idea about tapping that ties the hands of the Russian government. The box would be sealed. If misdeeds are done, someone would know. Who would know? The Russian government would know that the Russian government had done wrong. THEN they'd be in big trouble! Reminds me of a cartoon during regarding the government in the US doing black bag jobs without warrants, of course. The cartoon showed a masked burglar who also wore an FBI badge, and he was saying: "This is the FBI. I am under arrest. If I don't come out with my hands up, I'm coming in after me." -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 16:33:03 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09261 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28975; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28955 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08934 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01678 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:13:30 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000117160933.009968a0@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:12:11 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001171702.MAA04093@ietf.org> References: <6D1A8E7871B9D211B3B00008C7490AA501A81FFD@treis03nok> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 12:02 PM 1/17/2000 , you wrote: >On 17 Jan 00, at 18:31, janne.haikonen@nokia.com wrote: > > > > An auditable tapping standard is definitely needed. > > > > - And why exactly would Russian law enforcement start > > using your 'auditable tapping' standard, if they already > > have this easier system (and also their government and > > legistlation allows them to use non-auditable taps)? > >The use of the auditable standard should be demanded by the >international community. Chefren is asked "why exactly would Russian law start....". He answers, that an auditable standard "should be demanded by the international community." Assuming for the moment that Chefren actually intended that answer to be responsive to the question, does anyone other than Chefren think that because a standard should be demanded, that the Russians would use it and be limited by it? -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 17:09:33 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09615 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00153; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00116 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA09424 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:49:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 25386 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jan 2000 21:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.167) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 17 Jan 2000 21:49:10 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:49:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000117155900.00997b90@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001171555.KAA02992@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jan 00, at 16:06, Ed Stone wrote: > Chefren wrote: > > >"Nice guy" Mr Putin, fortunately the Internet is a good > >medium to distribute this kind of knowledge about him. > > And the fact that Russians know that their communications on the net have > no protection from the renamed KGB is sure to encourge Russian people to > carry out a dialog in support of democracy! ;-) > > But not to fear. Chefren has an idea about tapping that ties the hands of > the Russian government. The box would be sealed. If misdeeds are done, > someone would know. Who would know? The Russian government would know that > the Russian government had done wrong. THEN they'd be in big trouble! > .. Of course you can make fun of it and I have no problem laughing about it myself. However. Fact is taps will be there, taps will be used in courts and unfortunately taps can be misused. If the IETF for example starts a simple office that suppies big random numbers (keys) that have to be used by all individual internet taps, it could form a basic part of an administration that, if figuered out well, is probably pretty hard to crack. Judges and lawyers can reject taps that aren't registered well and the world becomes a is a little more honest. +++chefren p.s. It will never keep Mr Putin and the likes of doing things we hopefully all consider to be =very= wrong. I have seen this guy a few weeks only and I'm so disgusted that I don't even wan't to know what disaster it takes to get him away. _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 18:39:33 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10334 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02908; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02883 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10196 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02360 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:30:38 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000117165416.009c5c00@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:29:18 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000117155900.00997b90@fast.synernet.com> <200001171555.KAA02992@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org > > But not to fear. Chefren has an idea about tapping that ties the hands of > > the Russian government. The box would be sealed. If misdeeds are done, > > someone would know. Who would know? The Russian government would know that > > the Russian government had done wrong. THEN they'd be in big trouble! > > .. > >Of course you can make fun of it and I have no problem >laughing about it myself. That is a very positive sign that you see the silliness of suggesting that an "auditable tap" is any protection from a government that chooses, from moment to moment, from administration to administration, not to extend that protection from the government to its subjects. >However. > >Fact is taps will be there, taps will be used in courts and >unfortunately taps can be misused. Fact is anthrax will be there, anthrax will be used in laboratories, and unfortunately, anthrax can be misused. You have no problem with the world's governments having anthrax, do you? Just because some may use it to ethnically cleanse a few thousand square miles, shouldn't cause us to hesitate to provide anthrax to all governments, should it? ;-) -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 20:19:03 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10911 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA05163; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA05133 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:54:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA10784 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:56:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001180056.TAA10784@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 29588 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2000 00:56:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.88) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 18 Jan 2000 00:56:07 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:56:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000117165416.009c5c00@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 17 Jan 00, at 18:29, Ed Stone wrote: > > > > But not to fear. Chefren has an idea about tapping that ties the hands of > > > the Russian government. The box would be sealed. If misdeeds are done, > > > someone would know. Who would know? The Russian government would know that > > > the Russian government had done wrong. THEN they'd be in big trouble! > > > .. > > > >Of course you can make fun of it and I have no problem > >laughing about it myself. > > That is a very positive sign that you see the silliness of suggesting that > an "auditable tap" is any protection from a government that chooses, from > moment to moment, from administration to administration, not to extend that > protection from the government to its subjects. > > > >However. > > > >Fact is taps will be there, taps will be used in courts and > >unfortunately taps can be misused. > > > Fact is anthrax will be there, anthrax will be used in laboratories, and > unfortunately, anthrax can be misused. You have no problem with the world's > governments having anthrax, do you? Yes I and other citizens in this world do have problems with that and that's why this kind of weapons are banned. > Just because some may use it to > ethnically cleanse a few thousand square miles, shouldn't cause us to > hesitate to provide anthrax to all governments, should it? ;-) Eh Ed, can you tell us of any misuse of anthrax the last 20 years? If the world community thinks it's a bad idea to use such things even the most evil idiots hesitate to use it. If there were no free press, no camera's and no internet, mister Putin had used gas or antrax some months ago. Our society needs transparancy to keep checks and balances in good order. The IETF should design a wise tapping protocol with good checks and balances. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 17 21:02:03 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11134 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:02:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06658; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06635 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from Princeton.EDU (postoffice.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.120]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11053 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailserver.Princeton.EDU (mailserver.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.65]) by Princeton.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02043 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.Princeton.EDU (phoenix.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.42]) by mailserver.Princeton.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07632 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:51:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:51:11 -0500 (EST) From: Ray Yang To: raven@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: Russia spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001180056.TAA10784@ietf.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, chefren wrote: > Eh Ed, can you tell us of any misuse of anthrax the last 20 > years? If the world community thinks it's a bad idea to use > such things even the most evil idiots hesitate to use it. > > If there were no free press, no camera's and no internet, > mister Putin had used gas or antrax some months ago. > > Our society needs transparancy to keep checks and balances > in good order. > > The IETF should design a wise tapping protocol with good > checks and balances. "checks and balances." Ahh, the beautiful ring of words claiming legitimacy by borrowing phrases. Who will check and who will balance? Who will be checked and who will be balanced? Who will audit and who will tap? Who will be hurt and who will gain? The answers that have come up here are that: those who wish to install a police state will gain. Those with little regard for liberty will gain. Those who wish for checks and balances and rights to mean whatever is convenient for them to mean will gain. They will check themselves when they choose to do so. The security services of countries will decide when they want to tap, they will audit themselves (or set up a 'separate' department to do so), and they will tap as well. The ordinary citizen would not benefit from an intrusive tapping protocol -- at this stage, the potential (and real) cons to such a proposal far outweigh the alleged benefits. We've been over this a few thousand times before ... Ray _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Wed Jan 19 16:57:52 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05870 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00150; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00117 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:39:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (cyberpass.net [216.34.245.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05660 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gustav@localhost) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA20682; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001192143.NAA20682@rigel.cyberpass.net> From: gustav To: raven@ietf.org Subject: [Raven] Chefren Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Why don't we all ignore him? Obviously, his world view is significantly different from the mainstream of the Raven list, and we'll never persuade him with words. The only thing that will eventually change is mind is when he actually finds himself living under a government that "cheats" on the auditable taps, and, while snooping his email, decides that Chefren has incorrect thoughts, or evades taxes, or uses the wrong pharmaceuticals, and therefore he needs to be "helped", and so they bust in and shoot him or burn his house down. While the first bullets are flying through the air, or the first flames start in his house, then he might understand our worldview a little better. Until then, we should just ignore him and not respond anymore. _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Wed Jan 19 17:39:15 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06250 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA01214; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA01195 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA06138 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:26:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001192226.RAA06138@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 4686 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2000 22:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.148) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 19 Jan 2000 22:25:39 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:25:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] Chefren Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200001192143.NAA20682@rigel.cyberpass.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 19 Jan 00, at 13:43, gustav wrote: > Why don't we all ignore him? You don't do so. By the way, why do you want to set up people against individuals? We are discussing things here, there are serious problems, decisions are made elsewhere. > Obviously, his world view is significantly different from > the mainstream of the Raven list, and we'll never > persuade him with words. Maybe so but why would it be necessary to persuade people? We can undoubtly learn from each other. > The only thing that will eventually change is mind is > when he actually finds himself living under a government > that "cheats" on the auditable taps, and, while snooping > his email, decides that Chefren has incorrect thoughts, > or evades taxes, or uses the wrong pharmaceuticals, and > therefore he needs to be "helped", and so they bust in > and shoot him or burn his house down. As far as I know my country doesn't head in that direction, to the contrary, it gets more and more open and accountable and I like that. > While the first bullets are flying through the air, or > the first flames start in his house, then he might > understand our worldview a little better. I think I detect pretty misplaced feelings of superiority. > Until then, we should just ignore him and not respond anymore. Just do so for yourself and don't try to set up people against others, very ugly and about precisely what you think you are fighting. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 21 13:28:03 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15198 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22342; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22313 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailman.cisco.com (mailman.cisco.com [171.68.225.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14927 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from chsharp-tecra (chsharp-isdn.cisco.com [171.68.116.221]) by mailman.cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id KAA01180 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:14:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000121131020.00b281c0@dogwood.cisco.com> X-Sender: chsharp@dogwood.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:11:40 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Chip Sharp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raven] TIA CALEA Web Page Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org For those interested in US issues surrounding lawful intercept and CALEA, TIA has now put up a web site containing information on this issue. http://www.tiaonline.org/standards/CALEA_JEM/ Chip Support NetAid! http://www.netaid.org -------------------------------------------------- Chip Sharp Consulting Engineering Cisco Systems Telco Bio-region Reality - Love it or Leave it. -------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 12:01:57 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09806 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27620; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27597 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09393 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23735 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:42:32 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000127113525.009df8e0@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:42:12 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000117155900.00997b90@fast.synernet.com> <200001171555.KAA02992@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Should IETF work with the Chinese government to create or modify protocols or standards to assist Chinese law enforcement in enforcing Chinese internet and encryption laws? Or should IETF collaborate only with some governments, but not with others? To facilitate wiretapping laws only, or other laws as well? For example, would the IETF create or modify protocols or standards to assist the Taliban insuring that women cannot access the internet? With which governments and laws would IETF collaborate? "BEIJING, CHINA (NB) -- By Martin Stone, Newsbytes. China has sent ripples of distress through the Internet community with a variety of new rules concerning state secrets and encryption, but is seeking today to reassure foreign investors that the regulaitons will not limit the free exchange of online information. According to a news reports today and Wednesday, sweeping new regulations on encryption technology could restrict sales of everything from imported software to mobile phones in China. Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao said, however, "This will not affect the pace of foreign companies entering China." Under regulations due to take effect on Monday, all foreign and Chinese companies or individuals using encryption technology to protect e-communication from eavesdropping must register with the government. The registration is seen as the first step in forcing foreign companies to reveal their encryption secrets, and possibly the first step toward a ban on foreign encryption sales in China. US Ambassador to China Joseph Prueher said the problem was of "high interest" to the US government and that two issues are at stake, according to Reuters. The first is the free flow of information, and the second is the apparent effort by China to force foreign companies to reveal their encryption methods, the report said. He added that the situations complicate China's efforts to join the World Trade Organization (WTO). Foreign Web operators in China have called the new rules vague and complicated, and said they risk sales in China and face the threat of commercial espionage or competition from state-owned Chinese firms with potential access to foreign encryption secrets, Reuters reported. On Wednesday, China created online angst with the introduction of rules that penalize Websites for "leaking state secrets," prompting speculation on the curbing of news content. Under rules published in the People's Daily newspaper, Websites are required to undergo security checks, Reuters said, adding the regulations appear to give authorities control over the Internet in the name of protecting sensitive government information. China's definition of state secrets is so broad it can encompass virtually any information not specifically approved for publication, the report alleged. Reuters interpreted the new edict as declaring, "All organizations and individuals are forbidden from releasing, discussing or transferring state secret information on bulletin boards, chat rooms or in Internet news groups." The report added that the security rules could affect so-called "cyber-reporters", who write news specifically for online distribution. Reported by Newsbytes.com, http://www.newsbytes.com ." -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 12:28:32 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10227 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29192; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29161 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA10030 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:13:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 12272 invoked by uid 0); 27 Jan 2000 17:12:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.52) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 17:12:41 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:12:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000127113525.009df8e0@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 27 Jan 00, at 11:42, Ed Stone wrote: > Should IETF work with the Chinese government to create or modify protocols > or standards to assist Chinese law enforcement in enforcing Chinese > internet and encryption laws? Or should IETF collaborate only with some > governments, but not with others? To facilitate wiretapping laws only, or > other laws as well? For example, would the IETF create or modify protocols > or standards to assist the Taliban insuring that women cannot access the > internet? With which governments and laws would IETF collaborate? The IETF should think for itself. Of course the organization should look to requirements in the field but that has nothing to do with "collaboration". Basic question: Is tapping unavoidable requirement for networks? Since untappable networks stand for places where criminal organization can hide, laws in a quite a few countries demand it. IETF can decide what's a reasonable way to tap. Since there is a lot of privacy involved the needed standards should be designed very carefully. +++chefren =Signature follows= I think we need a simple architecture for a point to point tap interface that has strong provisions against misuse. On one side the communication provider who only starts tapping a specific customer or IP number with proper warrants. On the other side the approved tapping room. Everything should countrywise be organized by a central "tapping office". This office should provide keys for strong encryption to both communication provider and tapping room. Law and technology should both provide as much checks and balances as we can come up with. Law can provide good procedures, technology can provide technical means to check them or force them. _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 13:11:05 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11207 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00396; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00373 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10786 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24427 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000127125124.0099ed70@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:56:26 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000127113525.009df8e0@fast.synernet.com> <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 12:12 PM 1/27/2000 , you wrote: >On 27 Jan 00, at 11:42, Ed Stone wrote: > > > Should IETF work with the Chinese government to create or modify protocols > > or standards to assist Chinese law enforcement in enforcing Chinese > > internet and encryption laws? Or should IETF collaborate only with some > > governments, but not with others? To facilitate wiretapping laws only, or > > other laws as well? For example, would the IETF create or modify protocols > > or standards to assist the Taliban insuring that women cannot access the > > internet? With which governments and laws would IETF collaborate? > > >The IETF should think for itself. Of course the >organization should look to requirements in the field but >that has nothing to do with "collaboration". > >Basic question: Is tapping unavoidable requirement for >networks? No, it is not an unavoidable requirement for networks. I avoid it all the time. Most people do. >Since untappable networks stand for places where criminal >organization can hide, laws in a quite a few countries >demand it. So you mean that IETF must honor laws, such as those in China, and those that the Taliban may establish to keep women off the internet, or that Saudi Arabia may establish to stop communication of birth control information? Or just some laws from some countries? Which is it? Chefren, I am concerned that a criminal organization can hide in your home or in your office. What am I to do to be sure that no criminals are hiding there? This is a frightful concern. Something must be done. We must not allow criminal organizations to hide in homes or businesses. We must look into this and get help from the IETF. This is so frightening!! ;-) >IETF can decide what's a reasonable way to tap. Since there >is a lot of privacy involved the needed standards should be >designed very carefully. No, they can, and have, by consensus, learned that their assistance to government wiretapping is not wanted those to whom it would be applied, nor required by law. But nice try, anyway. -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 14:50:49 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13332 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02544; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02522 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from bommel.progressive-systems.com (216-132-55-12.velocityhsi.com [216.132.55.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12750 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ge@localhost) by bommel.progressive-systems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18026; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:27:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:27:47 -0700 From: "Ge' Weijers" To: chefren Cc: raven@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Message-ID: <20000127122747.A17769@progressive-systems.com> References: <200001172149.QAA09424@ietf.org> <4.2.0.58.20000127113525.009df8e0@fast.synernet.com> <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org>; from chefren@pi.net on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:12:41PM +0100 Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:12:41PM +0100, chefren wrote: > > IETF can decide what's a reasonable way to tap. Since there > is a lot of privacy involved the needed standards should be > designed very carefully. No technical solutions exist for this kind of political problem, unless you envision equipment that is capable of ethical and moral reasoning. A tap box cannot distinguish between a warrant issued by an NL judge and one issued by a modern-day Roland Freisler. Careful protocol design is not going to help here. The choice is simple: we can achieve (almost) no crime by abolishing all civil liberties and consider everyone guilty until proven innocent, or we live with a certain level of crime as the consequence of having certain of those liberties. This is a political choice, and no amount of technology will 'fix' things. You are proposing that an _unelected_ IETF should decide where to draw the line between legitimate tapping and excessive governement surveilance, and develop its standards accordingly. This seems to be a strange proposal for someone who uses the word 'democratic' a lot. Ge' _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 17:11:43 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15792 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07282; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07257 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7-old.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.99]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15588 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from here (slsdn48p56.ozemail.com.au [210.84.2.184]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12273 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:59:54 +1100 (EST) From: "Lyal Collins" To: "Raven" Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:57:12 +1100 Message-ID: <000f01bf6911$776cc200$b80254d2@here> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The IETF should think for itself. Of course the > organization should look to requirements in the field but > that has nothing to do with "collaboration". > > Basic question: Is tapping unavoidable requirement for > networks? It would appear so, given recent UK and US moves in this direction. There does appear to be some difference in the definition of "tapping". In some cases, it means assess to message keys, in others it seems to parallel the Australian case of authorising B&E to systems. We've lost control of our own systems, people. Live with it. Lyal _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 17:26:20 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15989 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA07748; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA07724 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from yorktown.paranet.com (kirkwood.paranet.com [199.164.131.35]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15782 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sprintparanet.com (dhcp-65-247.phx.paranet.com [172.16.65.247]) by yorktown.paranet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22302 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:05:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3890C163.13CF1307@sprintparanet.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:06:27 -0700 From: Christian Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Raven Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people References: <000f01bf6911$776cc200$b80254d2@here> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I still live in a democratically run country and if We (the collective we of the people of the USA) decide that we do not want to lose control of these systems then we can put political pressure on our government to get our way. We most certainly do not have to live with it. Lyal Collins wrote: > > We've lost control of our own systems, people. Live with it. > > Lyal > > _______________________________________________ > raven mailing list > raven@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven -- --------.--------------------------------------. ------/ Christian Price / ----/ Assistant Technical Analyst / ---/ Four Corners Area ITOT/OSA / --/ SprintParanet, Phoenix Office / -/ 602-266-9242 / '--------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 19:49:15 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17289 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA13616; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA13583 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA17196 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:31:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001280031.TAA17196@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 19764 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 2000 00:31:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.14) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 00:31:49 -0000 From: "chefren" To: Christian Price Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:31:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people CC: Raven Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3890C163.13CF1307@sprintparanet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 27 Jan 00, at 15:06, Christian Price wrote: > I still live in a democratically run country and if We (the collective > we of the people of the USA) decide that we do not want to lose control > of these systems then we can put political pressure on our government to > get our way. > > We most certainly do not have to live with it. > > Lyal Collins wrote: > > > > We've lost control of our own systems, people. Live with it. As far as I see it the sentence should be read as: The techies have lost control over the Internet to democracy, live with it. And that's no shame! To the contrary. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 19:51:57 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17321 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14288; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14268 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA17265 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:43:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001280043.TAA17265@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 22391 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 2000 00:43:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.14) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 00:43:57 -0000 From: "chefren" To: Raven Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:43:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000127125124.0099ed70@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 27 Jan 00, at 12:56, Ed Stone wrote: > At 12:12 PM 1/27/2000 , you wrote: > >On 27 Jan 00, at 11:42, Ed Stone wrote: .. > >Basic question: Is tapping unavoidable requirement for > >networks? > > No, it is not an unavoidable requirement for networks. I avoid it all the > time. Most people do. You cannot sell communication in The Netherlands, Australia and more and more other countries... As far as I see it: Most people don't care if government taps their communication lines. > >Since untappable networks stand for places where criminal > >organization can hide, laws in a quite a few countries > >demand it. > > So you mean that IETF must honor laws, No it should honor technical requirements in standards, the people who buy equipment have to honor laws. > such as those in China, and those that the Taliban may > establish to keep women off the internet, or that Saudi > Arabia may establish to stop communication of birth > control information? Or just some laws from some > countries? Which is it? Just wait, in Saudi Arabia most Internetting people are women. As a matter of fact they start businesses and it's an extra push to allow them to drive cars themselves. China has to go a long way but if you would have shown a film of today's china to the leaders 7-10 year ago they would have killed you. Taliban have shown more basic respects too lately. We should just keep communicating. But this has little to do with tappability. Tappability is about misuse of communication. > >IETF can decide what's a reasonable way to tap. Since there > >is a lot of privacy involved the needed standards should be > >designed very carefully. > > No, they can, and have, by consensus, learned that their assistance to > government wiretapping is not wanted those to whom it would be applied, nor > required by law. But nice try, anyway. consensus? As far as I see it here in The Netherlands and elsewhere Internet tapping has started and it will definitely never go away. IETF is missing a chance to direct an inevitable need in the market. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 20:35:47 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17620 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16324; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16302 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA17508 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:27:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001280127.UAA17508@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 2263 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 2000 01:27:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.14) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 01:27:39 -0000 From: "chefren" To: Raven Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:27:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20000127122747.A17769@progressive-systems.com> References: <200001271713.MAA10030@ietf.org>; from chefren@pi.net on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:12:41PM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 27 Jan 00, at 12:27, Ge' Weijers wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:12:41PM +0100, chefren wrote: > > > > IETF can decide what's a reasonable way to tap. Since there > > is a lot of privacy involved the needed standards should be > > designed very carefully. > > No technical solutions exist for this kind of political problem, > unless you envision equipment that is capable of ethical and moral > reasoning. ??? > A tap box cannot distinguish between a warrant issued by > an NL judge and one issued by a modern-day Roland > Freisler. Careful protocol design is not going to help > here. If enough dependencies are added it will be at least very difficult to produce an illegal tap that will be usefull in court. > The choice is simple: we can achieve (almost) no crime by abolishing > all civil liberties and consider everyone guilty until proven > innocent, or we live with a certain level of crime as the consequence > of having certain of those liberties. This is a political choice, and > no amount of technology will 'fix' things. You simply say "certain level of crime" and seem to forget that if it's =simple= to hide criminal organization with strong encryption and untappable networks it will definitely rise to a level that's absolutely unacceptable for any democracy. > You are proposing that an _unelected_ IETF should decide where to draw > the line between legitimate tapping and excessive governement > surveilance, and develop its standards accordingly. This seems to be a > strange proposal for someone who uses the word 'democratic' a lot. So you didn't understood me at all on this point. IETF can definitely design a technically sound standard for an auditable tap and this has nothing to do with legitimate or excessive. IETF cannot prevent misuse of tapping, not even with strong encryption protocols, tcpdump exists, tapping or at least traffic analysis is no problem. However IETF do can supply a way to make people an organizations accountable. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Thu Jan 27 21:54:35 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18976 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA18056; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA18033 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18048 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:43:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27546 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:43:05 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000127214033.00994b10@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:43:05 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raven] Register with China Govt Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org "Under regulations that take effect Monday, all foreign and Chinese companies or individuals using encryption technology, which protects electronic communication from eavesdropping, must register with the government." Source: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,33950,00.html Chefren, should IETF assist the Chinese gov't by creating or modifying protocols to insure that only persons who are registered with the gov't are using encryption? Why not? ;-) -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 03:36:02 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04407 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA01678; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA01649 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from oznet15.ozemail.com.au (oznet15.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.116]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04329 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from here (slsdn12p09.ozemail.com.au [210.84.11.201]) by oznet15.ozemail.com.au (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08511 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:28:24 +1100 (EST) From: "Lyal Collins" To: "Raven" Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:25:47 +1100 Message-ID: <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 In-Reply-To: <3890C163.13CF1307@sprintparanet.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was being slightly sarcastic. While the majority on this list and those in similar discussions forums keep insisting "we" don't have to do anything, governments ARE taking pre-emptive actions. It's a lot harder to legislation repealed or diluted than it is to drive a minimalist, democratically controlled initiative. While the IETF may not be the best entity to act as "change agent", it has to happen, or we all lose out. Now, that's a call to action - I can't put it any simpler. Act, or accept, that is the question. Which is it to be, list participants? Regards, Lyal > -----Original Message----- > From: raven-admin@ietf.org [mailto:raven-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Christian Price > Sent: Friday, 28 January 2000 9:06 > Cc: Raven > Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people > > > I still live in a democratically run country and if We (the collective > we of the people of the USA) decide that we do not want to lose control > of these systems then we can put political pressure on our government to > get our way. > > We most certainly do not have to live with it. > > Lyal Collins wrote: > > > > We've lost control of our own systems, people. Live with it. > > > > Lyal > > > > _______________________________________________ > > raven mailing list > > raven@ietf.org > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven > > -- > --------.--------------------------------------. > ------/ Christian Price / > ----/ Assistant Technical Analyst / > ---/ Four Corners Area ITOT/OSA / > --/ SprintParanet, Phoenix Office / > -/ 602-266-9242 / > '--------------------------------------' > > _______________________________________________ > raven mailing list > raven@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven > _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 03:56:33 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04494 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA02105; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA02079 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from camino.pa.tibcofinance.com ([216.101.119.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04439 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from tekbspa.tibcofinance.com (tekbspa.tibcofinance.com [160.101.12.31]) by camino.pa.tibcofinance.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10204 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.12net (falcon [160.101.12.39]) by tekbspa.tibcofinance.com (8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA13881 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:36:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:36:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001280836.AAA13881@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> Received: by falcon.12net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06615; Fri, 28 Jan 00 00:37:48 PST From: Patrick May To: "Raven" Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> References: <3890C163.13CF1307@sprintparanet.com> <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> Reply-To: mayp@tibco.com Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Lyal Collins writes: > I was being slightly sarcastic. > > While the majority on this list and those in similar discussions forums keep > insisting "we" don't have to do anything, governments ARE taking pre-emptive > actions. > > It's a lot harder to legislation repealed or diluted than it is to drive a > minimalist, democratically controlled initiative. > > While the IETF may not be the best entity to act as "change agent", it has > to happen, or we all lose out. > > Now, that's a call to action - I can't put it any simpler. > > Act, or accept, that is the question. Which is it to be, list participants? Act, of course. Act to make certain that Internet protocols are secure and untappable by anyone. Regards, Patrick May _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 14:09:16 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24166 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:09:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19077; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19052 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23126 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31196 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:41:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000128133515.009c4c00@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:40:52 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> References: <3890C163.13CF1307@sprintparanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 03:25 AM 1/28/2000 , you wrote: >I was being slightly sarcastic. > >While the majority on this list and those in similar discussions forums keep >insisting "we" don't have to do anything, governments ARE taking pre-emptive >actions. > >It's a lot harder to legislation repealed or diluted than it is to drive a >minimalist, democratically controlled initiative. > >While the IETF may not be the best entity to act as "change agent", it has >to happen, or we all lose out. > >Now, that's a call to action - I can't put it any simpler. > >Act, or accept, that is the question. Which is it to be, list participants? You mean, if they are going to kill us, the least we can do is assist and neaten up the process by kindly committing suicide? Hooey. If something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of civil liberties and stupid is going to be done, let it be done without the assistance of those to whom it is done. What that accomplishes is depriving the government surveillance state of cover and any shred of legitimacy. If you think "going along" so you can make the policy better "from the inside" is a realistic strategy, read some history. -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 15:00:27 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25411 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20929; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20902 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:42:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA25072 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:44:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001281944.OAA25072@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 32044 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 2000 19:43:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.158) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 19:43:45 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:43:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jan 00, at 13:40, Ed Stone wrote: > You mean, if they are going to kill us, the least we can do is assist and > neaten up the process by kindly committing suicide? A democratically approved tap =could= be compared to a democratically approved death penalty. Yes. What's the problem? Do you want the IETF to provide standards that don't leave democracy a chance? > Hooey. If something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, > destructive of civil liberties and stupid is going to be > done, let it be done without the assistance of those to > whom it is done. Ah, so we should make standards that make it difficult to produce electricity for electric chairs and also make it difficult to produce needles that can be used for lethal injections? Sigh... > What that accomplishes is depriving the government surveillance state of > cover and any shred of legitimacy. If you think "going along" so you can > make the policy better "from the inside" is a realistic strategy, read some > history. The surveillance state is nearer than ever BECAUSE of the encryption lobby. +++chefren p.s. Economist September 4th 1999 page 48: .. According to Gallup polls only 10% of Americans say they hold a secular evolutionist view of the world, while 44% believe in strict biblical creationism. Four million also believe they have been abducted by aliens. .. I don't know why but this kind of "news" makes me think serious discussions about encryption or tapping with Americans are pretty senseless... _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 15:00:37 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25423 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20581; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20556 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpf.casema.net (smtpf.casema.net [195.96.96.173]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA24769 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:32:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001281932.OAA24769@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 26668 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jan 2000 19:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.121.158) by smtpf.casema.net with SMTP; 28 Jan 2000 19:32:39 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:32:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200001280836.AAA13881@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> References: <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jan 00, at 0:36, Patrick May wrote: > Act, of course. Act to make certain that Internet protocols are > secure and untappable by anyone. Yuck!!! (Please don't take it personally.) This view is SO incredibly STUPID, it will definitely end up to legitimate governments to enter our houses and put bugs in our OWN equipment to encounter the problems that definitely will appear. The idea of untappable networks undoubtly will lead to law- approved razzia's in homes for information. "Nuclear Sixties" are back again? "Stop Encryption Race NOW!" Again: The communication of citizens can be protected enough by demanding telecom providers to encrypt the datastreams. The providers may use strong encryption and only have to take it off for individual taps after serious and proper warrants are given. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 17:14:56 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28394 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA25398; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA25378 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28047 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32333 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:02:04 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000128165742.009d9a90@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:01:49 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001281932.OAA24769@ietf.org> References: <200001280836.AAA13881@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org >Again: The communication of citizens can be protected >enough by demanding telecom providers to encrypt the >datastreams. The providers may use strong encryption and >only have to take it off for individual taps after serious >and proper warrants are given. Do you mean warrants that are viewed as serious and proper by the government of China? The government of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, North Korea? The Nixon administration? Newt/Hillary?... or just the serious and proper warrants of some shorter list of nations? ;-) Chefren's auditable tap, prevents government abuse of privacy: "This is the FBI. I'm under arrest. If I don't come out in five minutes with my hands up, I'm coming in after me." -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 17:47:43 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28916 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26026; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26001 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28638 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32517 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:26:26 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000128171008.009976a0@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:26:10 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001281944.OAA25072@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 02:43 PM 1/28/2000 , you wrote: >On 28 Jan 00, at 13:40, Ed Stone wrote: > > > You mean, if they are going to kill us, the least we can do is assist and > > neaten up the process by kindly committing suicide? > >A democratically approved tap =could= be compared to a >democratically approved death penalty. You do the death penalty in Holland? You don't weaken democracy by refusing to do the death penalty, do you? >Yes. > >What's the problem? > >Do you want the IETF to provide standards that don't leave >democracy a chance? Wow!! IETF can refuse to give democracy a chance? What a power trip! Who needs nuclear weapons and beach landings? All you need to subvert democracy is a few votes of IETF folks!! > > Hooey. If something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, > > destructive of civil liberties and stupid is going to be > > done, let it be done without the assistance of those to > > whom it is done. > >Ah, so we should make standards that make it difficult to >produce electricity for electric chairs and also make it >difficult to produce needles that can be used for lethal >injections? If one opposes such actions, but one assists in their implementation, that is sufficient, isn't it, for what one views as wrong to succeed. Ghandi said (paraphrased) "You must do what you can. It will not matter much. That is why you must do it." I recommend that you take the line of thinking about electric chairs, and assisting their functionality, and look into the application of Weberian bureaucracy and obedience to authority to institutionalize crimes against humanity during the twentieth century. Find an old person living near you in Holland and ask them about what that means. >Sigh... > > > What that accomplishes is depriving the government surveillance state of > > cover and any shred of legitimacy. If you think "going along" so you can > > make the policy better "from the inside" is a realistic strategy, read > some > > history. > >The surveillance state is nearer than ever BECAUSE of the >encryption lobby. You mean that the surveillance state would be benign except for the desire of some people for privacy and confidentiality? Please read the newspeak section of Orwell's 1984. But I do appreciate your continuing to make your case. It is very helpful for all to see the points and justifications you provide. >p.s. Economist September 4th 1999 page 48: > > .. According to Gallup polls only 10% of Americans say > they hold a secular evolutionist view of the world, > while 44% believe in strict biblical creationism. Four > million also believe they have been abducted by aliens. .. > >I don't know why but this kind of "news" makes me think >serious discussions about encryption or tapping with >Americans are pretty senseless... From this section, it seems that you sometimes do not look beyond unsupported assertion, and you sometimes do not hesitate to extend an unsupported generalization to a nationality. Someone might generalize (wrongly, of course) that pro-surveillance state sycophants are not clear, critical thinkers. ;-) -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 18:54:15 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29872 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27907; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27886 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from reel.demon.co.uk (IDENT:root@reel.demon.co.uk [158.152.96.65]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29686 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from reel.demon.co.uk (peterg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by reel.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29124 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:34:48 GMT Message-Id: <200001282134.VAA29124@reel.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 To: raven@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:31:50 +0100." <200001280031.TAA17196@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:34:48 +0000 From: Peter Greenwood Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org ccprice@sprintparanet.com said: > I still live in a democratically run country and if We (the collective > we of the people of the USA) decide that we do not want to lose > control of these systems then we can put political pressure on our > government to get our way. Later, chefren@pi.net said: > The techies have lost control over the Internet to democracy, live > with it. Before the last election in Britain, the (then) Opposition party had a policy of opposing the (then) Government's proposals to impose a legal requirement to hand copies of all encryption keys to Government approved "trusted third parties", who could in turn be ordered to hand them to the Government if required. At the election, there was a change of government. Following the election, the (new) Government party came up with a proposal for a legal requirement to hand copies of all encryption keys to Government approved "trusted third parties", who could in turn be ordered to hand them to the Government if required. That could be a sudden change of mind on going from having no responsibility to having a country to run, or it could be the Civil Service "providing continuity". It certainly does not indicate a democratic mandate for decrypting people's data. Democracy per se is no guarantee of good government. As they say, "live with it". -- Peter Greenwood peterg@reel.demon.co.uk _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 20:51:51 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00889 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA01071; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA01038 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00528 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from here (slsdn21p31.ozemail.com.au [210.84.14.31]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA12291 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:55:27 +1100 (EST) From: "Lyal Collins" To: Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:52:50 +1100 Message-ID: <000401bf69f3$2b048870$1f0e54d2@here> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000128133515.009c4c00@fast.synernet.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for raising a great point to demonstrate a "middle of the road view". The events in Europe of the last 60 years shows the consequences when "if something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of civil liberties and stupid is going to be done, let it be done without the assistance of those to whom it is done." Sitting on our hands leads nowhere good in most environments. Some actions to consider taking to counter the current groundswell against personal controls over information flow might be: - education in the public (possibly, but hopefully not the hysterical "Big brother is coming" genre of messages) - lobby groups. They may be the existing EFA/EFF style group, or a fresh group set up specifically on this issue. - propose options that "meet in the middle" of the 2 extremes of the discussion (at one end is the Hands-off brigade, while at the other is "must know all your gossip to keep the boogey-man away" battalion) - approach politicians directly, and show them the complexity and difficulties of what they may be agree to, AND have at least one option to contribute to the debate. It seems to me that not only is democracy about choice by the people, but personal and community accountability for actions and choices. Technology may assist with the human burden of maintaining accountability, but it won't be the only answer. Why can't we move towards gving a little ground, in a way that says "we compromised this far, but no further" Which is really saying that encouraging auditability of actions by all (especially LE/Regulatory) can be a good thing. I'm sure there are other options to the "auditable taps" and the "hand-off" options that have been discussed to boredom on this list - but I haven't heard any. Are there other options ?? (hint; I personally think that "head in the sand" is not adding value to the dicsussion, but giving control to up to the "system") Regards, Lyal > -----Original Message----- > From: raven-admin@ietf.org [mailto:raven-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Ed > Stone > Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2000 5:41 > To: raven@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people > > > At 03:25 AM 1/28/2000 , you wrote: > >I was being slightly sarcastic. > > > >While the majority on this list and those in similar discussions > forums keep > >insisting "we" don't have to do anything, governments ARE taking > pre-emptive > >actions. > > > >It's a lot harder to legislation repealed or diluted than it is > to drive a > >minimalist, democratically controlled initiative. > > > >While the IETF may not be the best entity to act as "change > agent", it has > >to happen, or we all lose out. > > > >Now, that's a call to action - I can't put it any simpler. > > > >Act, or accept, that is the question. Which is it to be, list > participants? > > > You mean, if they are going to kill us, the least we can do is assist and > neaten up the process by kindly committing suicide? Hooey. If something > wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of civil liberties and > stupid is going to be done, let it be done without the assistance > of those > to whom it is done. > > What that accomplishes is depriving the government surveillance state of > cover and any shred of legitimacy. If you think "going along" so you can > make the policy better "from the inside" is a realistic strategy, > read some > history. > > -- > -------------------------- > Ed Stone > estone@synernet.com > -------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > raven mailing list > raven@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven > _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Fri Jan 28 21:51:42 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA02301 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA04873; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA04853 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from lint.cisco.com (lint.cisco.com [171.68.224.209]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA01259 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from bigger-dawgs ([171.70.114.134] (may be forged)) by lint.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id SAA27423; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:36:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000128213347.00a3e930@lint.cisco.com> X-Sender: pferguso@lint.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:36:43 -0500 To: "chefren" From: Paul Ferguson Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Cc: raven@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200001281932.OAA24769@ietf.org> References: <200001280836.AAA13881@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 08:32 PM 01/28/2000 +0100, chefren wrote: >Again: The communication of citizens can be protected >enough by demanding telecom providers to encrypt the >datastreams. The providers may use strong encryption and >only have to take it off for individual taps after serious >and proper warrants are given. Wrong. The private communications of private citizens will only remain secure so long as strong encryption remains in the hands of the ordinary citizen, and the keys remain private. Period. Any other arrangement is simply intolerable, unworkable, and tyrannical. Speaking only for myself, - paul _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Sat Jan 29 01:41:12 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA07373 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19248; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19219 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@ci57407-b.nash1.tn.home.com [24.1.34.52]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06803 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.net (IDENT:Nathe@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03029 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:27:35 -0500 Message-ID: <38925E25.6C279D95@home.net> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:27:33 -0500 From: nathe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raven@ietf.org References: <200001281700.MAA16053@optimus.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raven] A call to arms. Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Now, that's a call to action - I can't put it any simpler. > > > > Act, or accept, that is the question. Which is it to be, list participants? > > Act, of course. Act to make certain that Internet protocols are > secure and untappable by anyone. I agree. with Mr. May.... We should not make make standards tapible, far from it... we should make them as close to untapible as possible. -Ethan McCargar _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Sat Jan 29 11:24:04 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21147 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02338; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02311 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20794 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03191 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:47:38 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000129101501.00994890@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:47:49 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <000401bf69f3$2b048870$1f0e54d2@here> References: <4.2.0.58.20000128133515.009c4c00@fast.synernet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 07:52 PM 1/28/2000 , you wrote: >Thanks for raising a great point to demonstrate a "middle of the road view". I hope it wasn't mistaken by others as middle of the road. Whether or not a middle of the road view is reasonable depends on the merits of the viewpoints, not on proximity to some central point on a continuum. See the biblical example of cutting the baby in half... >The events in Europe of the last 60 years shows the consequences when "if >something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of civil liberties >and stupid is going to be done, let it be done without the assistance of >those to whom it is done." That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. >Sitting on our hands leads nowhere good in most environments. Again, whether "nowhere" is better than "point A" depends on the merits and specifics of the status quo, contrasted with "point A". If the status quo is more expensive, more difficult tapping; and "point A" is cheap, ubiquitous, instant, easy tapping, then most who have written here advocate the status quo. >Some actions to consider taking to counter the current groundswell against >personal controls over information flow might be: >- education in the public (possibly, but hopefully not the hysterical "Big >brother is coming" genre of messages) The CESA proposal floated by the US DOJ seems to clearly announce where they'd like Big Brother to be. >- lobby groups. They may be the existing EFA/EFF style group, or a fresh >group set up specifically on this issue. >- propose options that "meet in the middle" of the 2 extremes of the >discussion (at one end is the Hands-off brigade, while at the other is "must >know all your gossip to keep the boogey-man away" battalion) Silly. Just because a point is in the middle of two points does not give it any claim to support. It depends on the specifics and the merits. Ex: You want to sell your house for $250,000; I want to buy it for one cent. Why won't you be reasonable and meet me in the middle? The reason is the valuation of the house. Being in the middle is irrelevant. >- approach politicians directly, and show them the complexity and >difficulties of what they may be agree to, AND have at least one option to >contribute to the debate. The UK Labor party was against the intrusiveness of key escrow, key disclosure and the extensive wiretap proposals during the election. Post election, they changed their minds. Democracy. Chickens banding together to influence foxes has not been a very useful exercise. >It seems to me that not only is democracy about choice by the people, but >personal and community accountability for actions and choices. Not about government accountability to its citizens? Like the pilot said to the air traffic controller who was rude and vectoring him all over the sky, " Sir, am I up here because you are down there, or are you down there because I'm up here?" >Technology may assist with the human burden of maintaining accountability, >but it won't be the only answer. Why can't we move towards gving a little >ground, in a way that says "we compromised this far, but no further" Because that doesn't work. Some one will look at that position, give it a few weeks, and then come up with yet further desires, and someone will say "Why can't we come to the middle ground?" ;-) >Which is really saying that encouraging auditability of actions by all >(especially LE/Regulatory) can be a good thing. It's silly. You want LE to audit LE? Governments who transgress will catch themselves, confess and punish themselves? >I'm sure there are other options to the "auditable taps" and the "hand-off" >options that have been discussed to boredom on this list >- but I haven't heard any. Are there other options ?? A good one is supporting the idea that the communications between one party and another are none of the government's business. If a gov't has reason to believe that a crime is occuring and they can prove it, arrest and prosecute. If not, why are they interested in the communications? They don't know if a crime is being committed, but they must surveill to be sure? Then why not microphones in every room? What is the basis of fearing Internet communications as harboring crime, but not voice communications in the living room? >(hint; I personally think that "head in the sand" is not adding value to the >dicsussion, but giving control to up to the "system") Does that mean, "be reasonable, do it your way?" -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Sat Jan 29 20:45:53 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25168 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA19466; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA19433 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep8.mail.ozemail.net (fep8.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.102]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25135 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from here (slsdn21p29.ozemail.com.au [210.84.14.29]) by fep8.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27226 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:41:48 +1100 (EST) From: "Lyal Collins" To: Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:39:12 +1100 Message-ID: <000201bf6ac2$cfa797d0$1d0e54d2@here> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000129101501.00994890@fast.synernet.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] > >The events in Europe of the last 60 years shows the consequences when "if > >something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of > civil liberties > >and stupid is going to be done, let it be done without the assistance of > >those to whom it is done." > > That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. Here we go again, wanting specific details before the position is agreed to. > >Sitting on our hands leads nowhere good in most environments. > > Again, whether "nowhere" is better than "point A" depends on the > merits and > specifics of the status quo, contrasted with "point A". If the status quo > is more expensive, more difficult tapping; and "point A" is cheap, > ubiquitous, instant, easy tapping, then most who have written > here advocate > the status quo. Which is the latter, if have I understood the point? > > >Some actions to consider taking to counter the current > groundswell against > >personal controls over information flow might be: > >- education in the public (possibly, but hopefully not the > hysterical "Big > >brother is coming" genre of messages) > > The CESA proposal floated by the US DOJ seems to clearly announce where > they'd like Big Brother to be. What is the public awareness of that? Can the message be put across succintly, defendable against (predictable) claims of hysteria by proponents of these forms of legislation or regulation? Most of this agree with you about CES, FIDENT, the EU/Dutch/UK legislation. What are we doing about it? Wasting electrons, mostly. > >- lobby groups. They may be the existing EFA/EFF style group, or a fresh > >group set up specifically on this issue. > >- propose options that "meet in the middle" of the 2 extremes of the > >discussion (at one end is the Hands-off brigade, while at the > other is "must > >know all your gossip to keep the boogey-man away" battalion) > > Silly. Just because a point is in the middle of two points does > not give it > any claim to support. It depends on the specifics and the merits. It MAY make it easier to achieve compromise on - a core aspect of democracy. Very few get the perfect outcomme, but enough people can accept a position over other positions - I think its called majority rule. [snip] > >- approach politicians directly, and show them the complexity and > >difficulties of what they may be agree to, AND have at least one > option to > >contribute to the debate. > > The UK Labor party was against the intrusiveness of key escrow, key > disclosure and the extensive wiretap proposals during the election. Post > election, they changed their minds. Democracy. Chickens banding > together to > influence foxes has not been a very useful exercise. Perhaps that's why some chickens decide to work for the farmer, who has dogs and a gun. > >It seems to me that not only is democracy about choice by the people, but > >personal and community accountability for actions and choices. > > Not about government accountability to its citizens? The government exist by "peoples choice", and is therefore accountable. > Because that doesn't work. Some one will look at that position, give it a > few weeks, and then come up with yet further desires, and someone > will say > "Why can't we come to the middle ground?" ;-) Yes. Life moves on, situations change, and community needs will change. So lets define a community "line in the sand". Lets see if that is acceptable to everyone (not only list participants). If the line in the sand needs to be re-drawn (in either direction), then lets embark on that process if and when. Staying tied to "views about ideas" that were defined before computer tapping and crime became common place is akin to luddism. In my terms, and example of "views about ideas" would the viewpoint each of us has about the idea of personal privacy. > >Which is really saying that encouraging auditability of actions by all > >(especially LE/Regulatory) can be a good thing. > > It's silly. You want LE to audit LE? Governments who transgress The desire for specific before agreement on position, again. I never said who would audit LE. There are other options that may be acceptable; - most people on this list imply acceptance of the judiciary as reasonably impartial. Why not a panel of judges? - EFF, EFA, etc? - UN - World Court? This will need legislation on a national basis to be effective. We aren't solving the needs of everyone on the planet by the process that will arise from these efforts - that would need an effective world government, somthing we are unlikely to see for a long time. But some of us who put more credence on particular values may be able to help ourselves. > A good one is supporting the idea that the communications between > one party > and another are none of the government's business. If a gov't has > reason to > believe that a crime is occuring and they can prove it, arrest and > prosecute. If not, why are they interested in the communications? They This aspect of the discussion leads nowhere. We are in an age where technology has made it possible for crimes to be conspired, arranged, and often implemented in bits, rather than atoms. The non-electronic evidence discussion is valid IF we all pay enough taxes to have : - a police officer on every corner, with a right to stop and question or detain anyone on an arbitrary basis - every parcel opened and inspected by customs, imposing multi-week delays in imports and exports - every parcel opened and inspected by the postal service - every air and sea passenger strip-searched at point of entry. IF countries continue with the current taxation levels on their respect populations OR existing regulatory and policing efforts stay about the same AND either: - all communications are capable of being monitored OR - every computer is made capable of being monitored for the data it processes (regardless of whether that data is communicated). Thus, a personal diary, medical records, tax files, electronic briefs for lawyers etc would be open to LE scrutiny. > don't know if a crime is being committed, but they must surveill to be > sure? Then why not microphones in every room? What is the basis > of fearing > Internet communications as harboring crime, but not voice > communications in > the living room? See the points I made above. Why stop at the living room? Restraunts, bars, bathrooms, streets - hell, why not even our clothes "Surveill" means observe or close inspection, in my dictionary. We are all potentially under surveillance in every day life. Anyone can watch us shopping, working, driving, and most outdoors recreation. Why should electronic surveillance be different. Isn't the web servers and data-links of the Internet the conceptual equivalent of shops, sportsgrounds and roads? Why should laws apply differently to elelctronic activities to those applying to non-electronic activities? Note I am not saying the laws need to be policed in exactly the same way. The area of on-line policing is still new enough for us to have some influence, if we want. Do we want to have that influence? > >(hint; I personally think that "head in the sand" is not adding > value to the > >dicsussion, but giving control to up to the "system") > Does that mean, "be reasonable, do it your way?" No. It means waiting for someone else to be "nice" about this and see it our way won't work, as history shows - see previous discussion on "something wrongheaded, dangerous, intrusive, destructive of civil liberties and stupid is going to be done". Lets explore options or close down the list. If list participants don't move on something definitive, the list only serves as a discussion forums for concepts that are trivialised by legislation, and hence mostly meaningless in the bigger picture of our lives. Lyal _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 03:40:19 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29999 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA27331; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA27306 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from camino.pa.tibcofinance.com ([216.101.119.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29827 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from tekbspa.tibcofinance.com (tekbspa.tibcofinance.com [160.101.12.31]) by camino.pa.tibcofinance.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27960 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.12net (falcon [160.101.12.39]) by tekbspa.tibcofinance.com (8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA18120 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:18:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:18:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001310818.AAA18120@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> Received: by falcon.12net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11650; Mon, 31 Jan 00 00:19:54 PST From: Patrick May To: raven@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001281932.OAA24769@ietf.org> References: <000501bf6969$46d41550$c90b54d2@here> <200001280836.AAA13881@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> <200001281932.OAA24769@ietf.org> Reply-To: mayp@tibco.com Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org chefren@pi.net writes: > On 28 Jan 00, at 0:36, Patrick May wrote: > > Act, of course. Act to make certain that Internet protocols are > > secure and untappable by anyone. > > Yuck!!! (Please don't take it personally.) > > This view is SO incredibly STUPID, it will definitely end Now why would you think that anyone would take such a lucid and eloquent response personally? > up to legitimate governments to enter our houses and put > bugs in our OWN equipment to encounter the problems that > definitely will appear. > > The idea of untappable networks undoubtly will lead to law- > approved razzia's in homes for information. This may happen in some countries, but not necessarily in those with true freedom of speech and protection against arbitrary police powers. The U.S. government, for example, has been acting outside of its constitutional boundaries for decades. Nonetheless, the U.S. courts have upheld the right to speak anonymously and have even managed to resist the drug war hysteria to the degree that they require law enforcement to at least get a judge to rubber stamp a warrant before they search a private residence. Any definition of "legitimate government" that includes the notion of placing bugs in the equipment of people not even accused of a crime is so skewed as to be laughable. > Again: The communication of citizens can be protected > enough by demanding telecom providers to encrypt the > datastreams. The providers may use strong encryption and > only have to take it off for individual taps after serious > and proper warrants are given. No, it cannot. As you have noted yourself, tcpdump exists. As numerous others have pointed out, law enforcement in many countries, including the U.S., has a long history of using such tools despite laws intended to prevent such abuses. The only way for individuals to protect private communications is to use end-to-end strong encryption. Sincerely, Patrick May PS to the List Moderator: The clear and overwhelming consensus on this list and at the physical meeting is that the IETF should not sanction the weakening of new or existing protocols in order to facilitate wiretapping. Is there a procedure to summarize this result to the IETF board and to close this list? _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 13:01:32 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11277 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12623; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12602 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx20.rmci.net (halcyon.rmci.net [205.162.184.63]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA10726 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6901 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2000 17:39:56 -0000 Received: from proto.rmci.net (208.14.170.17) by halcyon.rmci.net with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 17:39:56 -0000 From: Andrew Spencer Reply-To: spence@rmci.net Organization: Operations To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:45:01 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0001311039400A.13098@proto.rmci.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Raven] Two Cents... "Self Correcting Problem..." Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Been watching this debate for awhile and thought I'd add my two cents... Please forgive me if I don't communicate this as well as I'd like but I take this conclusion for granted.. If you look back to history I believe you will find that no country has been perfect in its dealing with new technologies... Anything new allows for a break, a discrepancy in the way things were done. An upset of power. Telegraph did it... Phones do it... Now we see Internet playing a part in revolutions and Political Actions in different countries... You can't engineer for politics... Nor can you electrical or mechanically engineer a societal solution. Apples and Oranges... Different mind sets and goals... What's my point? Attempting to engineer a collection of protocols and Internet access that allows anyone to do anything is chaos. Engineering a data system that allows anyone to tap any part of it at anytime is "Collosal". It has nothing to do with politics. The reason ISPs (I've worked for 3) didn't originally filter content or trap usage is because of the cost, expenditure, and technical difficulty. It takes machines an order of magnitude more powerful to track and trap content, then to just let it pass through. And our margins are only getting tighter. Currently I donot keep any mail log for more than 36 hours... As to the political... Don't open that Pandora's box, you might even let hope out. The right and wrongness of humans and their political societies can only be judged over time. In my humble opinion any government that cannot cajole compliance out of 80-90% of its populace without heavily relying on new technologies to control its people has a high potentiality for failure. Nuff said. Flipside, any society that cannot expend the necessary research to implement technologies in their fashion, doesn't get them in that fashion... if you can't afford it, you don't get it... Self correcting problem... Capitalism works quite well... If China wishes to pay me X number of dollars to devise a Network system for their needs it will work out... They can make their own network with Internet "portals".. Government shave many options.. If they can garner the capital they can make any solution "Viable" for short term... I personally have nothing against any body politic that wants to perpetuate itself with little or no divergence, but they can't ask the IETF to work on their behalf. The Internet, having gained most of its growth from Educational Facilities around the world to share email, and to share computer resources, has deep roots in the free flow of information for its own sake. Its quite arrogant for any body politic or organization to expect an organization based on these principals to proactive assist in this manner. If you want to tap my communications, as a United States Citiizen, and you feel I am enough a government threat, you can tap my communications at the source. Technically it's much easier than tapping 10-20 points in between. If you tap my computer and all points of access. If I encrypt, you tap at the point of decryption. If I am extremely paranoid and take extra precautions (which at this moment I don't) you are not looking at the average citizen. You are looking at someone with reasons and motivations that may or may not be valid. Let me make this point exceedingly clear. You are looking at someone who falls into a 5-10% class of exception. Not the rule. Most people I know don't even know how to remove a cookie from their browser, let alone use PGP encryption. That's the average. In the counterpoint, if you are looking at 30-40% using encryption then you have a greater problem. A populace that feels they have to protect themselves from data intrusion. That's a differnet problem. Another reality point, if you have any government that works against the wishes of more than 20% of the population you have a problem that writing any Internet protocol will not solve. That's the design of a democracy/republic. It allows the populace to effect change to keep the government, and the people, in sync. Problems do correct themselves, no matter what. In time it will unravel, and either they will be wrong and dealt with accordingly, or the other party (FBI,CIA,NSA,DOJ) will be dealt with accordingly. In 80-90 years there is always a conclusion.. (Death and taxes ;-) Let the mix of humans, ideas, memes, politics, words, with impending resolution continue ad infinitium, Amen... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Note. The above ideas are not in anyway connected with my employer, they are merely the ramblings of one person. They are written in the hopes of understanding and enjoyment, not malice or harm. If they in anyway create problems for you, I suggest not re-reading them. ;-) Andrew Spencer "No mysteries... only solutions..." ----------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 13:02:44 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11298 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13126; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13101 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA11060 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:54:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001311754.MAA11060@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 10252 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2000 17:39:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.111) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 17:39:28 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:39:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000128171008.009976a0@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001281944.OAA25072@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jan 00, at 17:26, Ed Stone wrote: > Wow!! IETF can refuse to give democracy a chance? What a power trip! Who > needs nuclear weapons and beach landings? All you need to subvert > democracy is a few votes of IETF folks!! I don't know why you seem very enthusiastically about this. If politicicians are starting to use strong encryption during their politics the end of democracy is not behind the horizon. As far as =I= see it of course... +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 13:28:07 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11891 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:28:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13633; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13609 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11439 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14000 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:08:34 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000131130522.0099b530@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:08:55 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001311754.MAA11060@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000128171008.009976a0@fast.synernet.com> <200001281944.OAA25072@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 12:39 PM 1/31/2000 , you wrote: >On 28 Jan 00, at 17:26, Ed Stone wrote: > > > Wow!! IETF can refuse to give democracy a chance? What a power trip! Who > > needs nuclear weapons and beach landings? All you need to subvert > > democracy is a few votes of IETF folks!! > > >I don't know why you seem very enthusiastically about this. It was just a ludicrous statement that demanded ridicule. Similar to assertions that sealed tap boxes will tie hands of miscreant governments. But it has been said and I agree that the meeting and this list have come to the same conclusion. The answers provided to the questions "Should IETF..." are emphatically NO. I think it is done. -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 16:17:28 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15965 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19238; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19207 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA15875 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:12:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001312112.QAA15875@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 32523 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2000 20:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.111) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 20:59:08 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:59:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 28 Jan 00, at 21:36, Paul Ferguson wrote: > At 08:32 PM 01/28/2000 +0100, chefren wrote: > > >Again: The communication of citizens can be protected > >enough by demanding telecom providers to encrypt the > >datastreams. The providers may use strong encryption and > >only have to take it off for individual taps after serious > >and proper warrants are given. > > Wrong. > > The private communications of private citizens will only > remain secure so long as strong encryption remains in the > hands of the ordinary citizen, and the keys remain private. > > Period. > > Any other arrangement is simply intolerable, unworkable, > and tyrannical. > > Speaking only for myself, That's pretty clear! I try at least to think for the group and it's definitely unacceptible if even only a few individuals can hide against the clearly specified will (laws) of the democratic majority. So are you an egoist or a socialist? (*) +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 16:36:23 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16338 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19706; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19683 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA16173 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:28:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001312128.QAA16173@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 13589 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2000 21:13:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.111) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 21:13:38 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:13:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000201bf6ac2$cfa797d0$1d0e54d2@here> References: <4.2.0.58.20000129101501.00994890@fast.synernet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 30 Jan 00, at 12:39, Lyal Collins wrote: .. > Lets explore options or close down the list. If list participants don't > move on something definitive, the list only serves as a discussion forums > for concepts that are trivialised by legislation, and hence mostly > meaningless in the bigger picture of our lives. I guess you are right, it's probably already a little too late... Government here has come up with a little messy solution, doesn't work perfectly but "enough". Probably nobody here would have approved it but if the techies don't come up with better ideas the non-techies "develop" it. As pointed out here by Maurice they will tap only at the larger backbone. Might well be that they turn everything around and demand all access providers to route their data through a few pipes. Money and stupidity are no problems for governments... +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 16:36:44 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16349 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19473; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19446 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA15982 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:19:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200001312119.QAA15982@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 6281 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2000 21:05:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.111) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 21:05:54 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:05:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000129101501.00994890@fast.synernet.com> References: <000401bf69f3$2b048870$1f0e54d2@here> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 29 Jan 00, at 10:47, Ed Stone wrote: > That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. And start thinking? With the current media that history would absolutely never repeat. =Even= if a Hitler would come in place she/he would never have come so far neighter with with his camps nor with his war to Russia. (Millosevic didn't came away with it and the Russians don't even come away with something far smaller now.) I have no problem with giving in democracy is a belief... +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 17:39:10 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17440 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA21393; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA21373 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17121 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16383 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:25:27 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000131171841.00996b40@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:25:41 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200001312119.QAA15982@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000129101501.00994890@fast.synernet.com> <000401bf69f3$2b048870$1f0e54d2@here> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 04:05 PM 1/31/2000 , you wrote: >On 29 Jan 00, at 10:47, Ed Stone wrote: > > > That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. > > >And start thinking? > >With the current media that history would absolutely never >repeat. Thank you for that guarantee. Between 1917 and 1987 the Soviet Union murdered 62 million of its own subjects; China, between 1949 and 1987 murdered 35 million of it subjects; Nazis are a distant third at 21 million people murdered (does not include soldiers/war dead). Turkey killed around 2 million between 1909 and 1918; Two million Cambodians to the Khmer Rouge; Pakistan murdered 1.5 million while Tito's Yugoslavia murdered one million; Mexico murdered about 1.5 million between 1900 and 1920. Around 170 million total murdered by governments this century, excluding international and civil wars. A few hundred thousand here or there are not counted. Not every reduction in liberty or concentration of power in government results in good things. Quite the contrary. Source": "Death By Government", Dr. R.J. Rummel We now return to our program, already in progress.. -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 17:39:14 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17451 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA21473; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA21453 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17159 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from here (slsdn13p53.ozemail.com.au [210.84.12.53]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17855; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:27:57 +1100 (EST) From: "Lyal Collins" To: , Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:25:14 +1100 Message-ID: <000201bf6c3a$0b5a1820$350c54d2@here> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 In-Reply-To: <200001310818.AAA18120@tekbspa.tibcofinance.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] > > up to legitimate governments to enter our houses and put > > bugs in our OWN equipment to encounter the problems that > > definitely will appear. > > > > The idea of untappable networks undoubtly will lead to law- > > approved razzia's in homes for information. > > This may happen in some countries, but not necessarily in those > with true freedom of speech and protection against arbitrary police > powers. The U.S. government, for example, has been acting outside of > its constitutional boundaries for decades. Nonetheless, the > U.S. courts have upheld the right to speak anonymously and have even > managed to resist the drug war hysteria to the degree that they > require law enforcement to at least get a judge to rubber stamp a > warrant before they search a private residence. > Any definition of "legitimate government" that includes the > notion of placing bugs in the equipment of people not even accused of > a crime is so skewed as to be laughable. It it reasonable to presume that this article is actually a form of April Fools joke? http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,33779,00.html While Australia now has legislation that permits break and enter to computers, the US seems to think the issue dooes not need clarifying. [snip] Should the focus of this (or another) list discussion be changed to one of designing computer systems that are resistant to this form of intrusion? Lyal _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 18:05:10 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17834 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22097; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22074 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw1a.lmco.com (mailgw1a.lmco.com [192.31.106.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17693 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from emss02g01.ems.lmco.com (emss02g01.ems.lmco.com [198.7.15.39]) by mailgw1a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA31950 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:51:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38887) id <0FP800F01258NV@lmco.com> for raven@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:51:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from mbox.vs.lmco.com ([138.209.240.12]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38887) with ESMTP id <0FP800A2I254MO@lmco.com> for raven@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:51:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from poseidon (poseidon.vs.lmco.com [138.209.67.9]) by mbox.vs.lmco.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25219 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:54:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from loupan.vs.lmco.com by poseidon (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00930; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:55:26 -0600 (CST) Received: by loupan.vs.lmco.com (8.7.1) id WAA14168; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:55:12 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:55:11 -0600 From: Matthew Saroff Subject: Re: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-reply-to: Lyal Collins <"RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people"@[138.209.240.12]> To: raven@ietf.org Reply-to: msaroff@pobox.com Message-id: <10001311655.ZM14166@loupan.vs.lmco.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <000201bf6c3a$0b5a1820$350c54d2@here> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT You have to look at the bright side as presented by the pro tapping folks on this list: All we have to do is to find out who is doing all the chinese spam that is hitting everyone's mailbox, and then use it as a mirror to send pro-democracy information to chinese users. Let the Chinese security apparatus do the rest, %-) -- Matthew Saroff Do not reply directly to this message. Reply to msaroff@pobox.com _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 19:57:23 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19163 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA25767; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA25742 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA19028 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:32:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002010032.TAA19028@ietf.org> Received: (qmail 23779 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2000 00:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO system) (195.96.120.157) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 1 Feb 2000 00:32:13 -0000 From: "chefren" To: raven@ietf.org Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 01:32:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000131171841.00996b40@fast.synernet.com> References: <200001312119.QAA15982@ietf.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 31 Jan 00, at 17:25, Ed Stone wrote: > At 04:05 PM 1/31/2000 , you wrote: > >On 29 Jan 00, at 10:47, Ed Stone wrote: > > > > > That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. > > > > > >And start thinking? > > > >With the current media that history would absolutely never > >repeat. > > Thank you for that guarantee. > > Between 1917 and 1987 the Soviet Union murdered 62 million of its own > subjects; China, between 1949 and 1987 murdered 35 million of it subjects; > Nazis are a distant third at 21 million people murdered (does not include > soldiers/war dead). > > Turkey killed around 2 million between 1909 and 1918; Two million > Cambodians to the Khmer Rouge; Pakistan murdered 1.5 million while Tito's > Yugoslavia murdered one million; Mexico murdered about 1.5 million between > 1900 and 1920. > > Around 170 million total murdered by governments this century, excluding > international and civil wars. A few hundred thousand here or there are not > counted. > > Not every reduction in liberty or concentration of power in government > results in good things. Quite the contrary. > > Source": "Death By Government", Dr. R.J. Rummel Pretty biased without the about 150 people My Lai eh? Old news from before the modern media. Vietnam war with cruelties like My Lai, pictured naked people running for napalm and the officer executing a guy on the street in front of a camera were more or less a turn. Even a very very isolated place like Grozny has regular real time satellite telephone contact with reporters in The Netherlands (and probably to tens of other countries). The Internet gives the media even better chances. > We now return to our program, already in progress.. Hm... As argued in another thread and before: The stronger the encryption the stronger encountering laws for law enforcement. If YOU were with law enforcement and the criminals were using encryption, wouldn't you ask for laws that allow you to place bugs in their keyboards? Inevitable and pretty dumb weapon race. +++chefren _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven From raven-admin@ietf.org Mon Jan 31 21:15:59 2000 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20389 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29816; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29787 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from fast.synernet.com (IDENT:root@fast.synernet.net [166.82.6.2] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20265 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from computername (a793c.vnet.net [166.82.194.182]) by fast.synernet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17326 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:01:44 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000131202730.009c88f0@fast.synernet.com> X-Sender: estone@fast.synernet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:00:41 -0500 To: raven@ietf.org From: Ed Stone Subject: RE: [Raven] IP: China spies on its own people In-Reply-To: <200002010032.TAA19028@ietf.org> References: <4.2.0.58.20000131171841.00996b40@fast.synernet.com> <200001312119.QAA15982@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raven-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: raven-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Raven Discussion List X-BeenThere: raven@ietf.org At 07:32 PM 1/31/2000 , you wrote: >On 31 Jan 00, at 17:25, Ed Stone wrote: > > > At 04:05 PM 1/31/2000 , you wrote: > > >On 29 Jan 00, at 10:47, Ed Stone wrote: > > > > > > > That would take us to 1940 Europe. Reread some history. > > > > > > > > >And start thinking? > > > > > >With the current media that history would absolutely never > > >repeat. > > > > Thank you for that guarantee. > > > > Between 1917 and 1987 the Soviet Union murdered 62 million of its own > > subjects; China, between 1949 and 1987 murdered 35 million of it subjects; > > Nazis are a distant third at 21 million people murdered (does not include > > soldiers/war dead). > > > > Turkey killed around 2 million between 1909 and 1918; Two million > > Cambodians to the Khmer Rouge; Pakistan murdered 1.5 million while Tito's > > Yugoslavia murdered one million; Mexico murdered about 1.5 million between > > 1900 and 1920. > > > > Around 170 million total murdered by governments this century, excluding > > international and civil wars. A few hundred thousand here or there are not > > counted. > > > > Not every reduction in liberty or concentration of power in government > > results in good things. Quite the contrary. > > > > Source": "Death By Government", Dr. R.J. Rummel > >Pretty biased without the about 150 people My Lai eh? Excluded from the count of dead from governments murdering their own people, due to the fact that My Lai was the murder of nationals of one nation by an army of another nation in an international "police action". >Old news from before the modern media. Vietnam war with >cruelties like My Lai, pictured naked people running for >napalm and the officer executing a guy on the street in >front of a camera were more or less a turn. > >Even a very very isolated place like Grozny has regular >real time satellite telephone contact with reporters in The >Netherlands (and probably to tens of other countries). > >The Internet gives the media even better chances. > > > We now return to our program, already in progress.. > > >Hm... As argued in another thread and before: The stronger >the encryption the stronger encountering laws for law >enforcement. > >If YOU were with law enforcement and the criminals were >using encryption, wouldn't you ask for laws that allow you >to place bugs in their keyboards? If they are criminals, arrest them. No need to bug folks who are already arrestable and convictable. Just arrest them if they are committing crimes. -- -------------------------- Ed Stone estone@synernet.com -------------------------- _______________________________________________ raven mailing list raven@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven