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Thread-Topic: RAW side meeting Thread-Index: AdUyPzUbEw3sozWOTyWR/XEbybXRgA== Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 08:10:23 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 08:09:53 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pthubert@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c0:1008::1d] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: acf91416-125a-416b-3354-08d7005716b5 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:MN2PR11MB4478; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4478: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 3 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 0088C92887 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(366004)(136003)(346002)(199004)(189003)(2906002)(66476007)(476003)(64756008)(8676002)(478600001)(486006)(66946007)(66446008)(68736007)(256004)(73956011)(33656002)(6436002)(606006)(14454004)(66556008)(76116006)(790700001)(6116002)(966005)(8936002)(81166006)(53936002)(74316002)(316002)(81156014)(25786009)(2501003)(3480700005)(86362001)(71200400001)(6666004)(54896002)(9686003)(55016002)(102836004)(186003)(7116003)(5660300002)(46003)(6306002)(236005)(71190400001)(110136005)(4744005)(2201001)(7696005)(99286004)(52536014)(7736002)(6506007)(491001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MN2PR11MB4478; H:MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: EiL6fRp7kUnpPMh68qBizjGfuLOP2g5M4MhU6+ZRvtvpoNcbbjZtwugzeTxri8iKXc/BSPyDRkhTCRdpCZf39WihusImm4ok9e3r1HST/3UIAwljZahVDG5vGtlzCZYOzS8+d1v3k8rqSKL51LjwCfozQrrLfvd/pEDxm1DY9VK9inOPVJEHF3qsPUIv8JZ13TRSDEZv6yIu5Hec+E4ns9er4xlbSyaOVv+Lnho39wNwr/gBx0kiIB5A5oa/vw+6GVhJw8QyUNYrYH6KPhYMdQRd07cLoyRgymNU1lVGIv/PgJU+9nX6BfA2NUUKxBAknrTzE0u4YuXKEcDIGegFEDypIF9YYEkK1Y0Tt+BYa2hBmWGu7BEGtWDvhkSOu8IuWdG9vNqJdgk1JE3DFMm8kTNri6ThRLxMnAybHBiFnxs= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB3565372BC09D9A3F826871EED8FA0MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: acf91416-125a-416b-3354-08d7005716b5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jul 2019 08:10:33.7814 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pthubert@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4478 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.17, xch-aln-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] RAW side meeting X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 08:11:11 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB3565372BC09D9A3F826871EED8FA0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all I started a Doodle for a RAW side meeting during the IETF 105 meeting in Mo= ntreal. I'll arrange for remote participation as needed. The goal is to complete the study of the proposed charter and ask for a WG = formation without a second BoF. Please let us know which time would suit you if you are willing to particip= ate here: https://doodle.com/poll/qru2xyewcuxhcthy All the best, Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565372BC09D9A3F826871EED8FA0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

I started a Doodle for a RAW side meeting during the= IETF 105 meeting in Montreal. I’ll arrange for remote participation = as needed.

The goal is to complete the study of the proposed ch= arter and ask for a WG formation without a second BoF.

Please let us know which time would suit you if you = are willing to participate here: https://doodle.com/pol= l/qru2xyewcuxhcthy

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

--_000_MN2PR11MB3565372BC09D9A3F826871EED8FA0MN2PR11MB3565namp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 4 04:49:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B891201A8; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0SlcySnXZVA; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10091.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 033A812004F; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:49:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VYwicwsoGtgYSUQDYXsz4o7czuxzYrMSad86TKHhVrs=; b=Jc9Ye5NBMIO0EN8qPt2juk4dXDv06x4rZMYCFpepEPJebGUqwX/PtzW68z+fNi0TlZOVMMp8K8d4yELkZ0LC4qw7FkX8artZ+yEJB8l7e+QOvMwhXQJWXXnASq8lQUnz/eDJDrKk4hw6X7ZEsPKzxxVJWnrg4oF4mOKosiw5hUc= Received: from AM6PR07MB5478.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.89.19) by AM6PR07MB4519.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.38.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.12; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:49:08 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5478.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dee:748a:6039:edd9]) by AM6PR07MB5478.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dee:748a:6039:edd9%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2052.010; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:49:08 +0000 From: "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "int-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "" , "raw@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "'Grossman, Ethan A.'" Thread-Topic: RAW side meeting Thread-Index: AQHVMl59YR9YDl3nAkiRDxAGTpJ7GA== Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:49:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [131.228.2.21] user-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 x-clientproxiedby: PR0P264CA0046.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:100:1::34) To AM6PR07MB5478.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:85::19) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=martin.vigoureux@nokia.com; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c319b467-8b05-4020-2eae-08d700759f73 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:AM6PR07MB4519; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB4519: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 0088C92887 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(346002)(376002)(136003)(396003)(366004)(39860400002)(199004)(189003)(25786009)(99286004)(229853002)(7736002)(6246003)(11346002)(305945005)(65806001)(65956001)(66066001)(478600001)(8936002)(36756003)(65826007)(53936002)(7116003)(6506007)(102836004)(8676002)(81166006)(3480700005)(31686004)(2906002)(256004)(81156014)(2501003)(386003)(6436002)(71190400001)(446003)(6306002)(71200400001)(6512007)(6486002)(966005)(110136005)(486006)(66946007)(68736007)(76176011)(64756008)(86362001)(58126008)(31696002)(14454004)(6116002)(2201001)(476003)(4744005)(316002)(186003)(26005)(3846002)(2616005)(52116002)(73956011)(66446008)(66556008)(66476007)(64126003)(5660300002)(491001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM6PR07MB4519; H:AM6PR07MB5478.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 6pJk1/gNfvRUQH4UGJkujJd+Y5eoKX1gP9GqLaPtctuj+smVKjb+d0Y5OxU1vKX502zGnkmlNUkL4tViVcOs1O1clM+Mp+WZDUjmrltvpyLxr/xfwQW9rayaxkV/aoVAmKILOAvGh1HjizJzZ4ckskOPHyiFaYnwoBBm0PLnrUJkVP6X0H2BuzfjctYd5DpYFDhl6T2uypzQXQOvvQ+vyXioNFymXlx98h4qYw6pb/CKyAmTJJlb58ParlIp08ISG4rDsZDmHytIr8DEy2kwhIA69yTkgAORzMriv+yj0nHbtA9O6gWsIqXocHOJvujvCh2PA8ZC+emVt0qWSY6apy20YiB36fCOtW6Qol92KxseOM4NIbPb8H8XnX5ehfVShddoCFihzfL1UpDH4hcEWCozBUJFPYpVYMPEJywHdlw= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <691F30EC01C9DA4597B742BFC96E19EA@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c319b467-8b05-4020-2eae-08d700759f73 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jul 2019 11:49:08.3973 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: martin.vigoureux@nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB4519 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] RAW side meeting X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 11:49:16 -0000 Pascal, do you plan on booking an "Unofficial Side Meeting" room for that? -m Le 2019-07-04 =E0 10:10, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a =E9crit=A0: > Dear all >=20 > I started a Doodle for a RAW side meeting during the IETF 105 meeting in= =20 > Montreal. I=92ll arrange for remote participation as needed. >=20 > The goal is to complete the study of the proposed charter and ask for a=20 > WG formation without a second BoF. >=20 > Please let us know which time would suit you if you are willing to=20 > participate here: https://doodle.com/poll/qru2xyewcuxhcthy >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Pascal >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 4 04:57:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A2612004F; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=IVi9Eqkv; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=aLvJ27VC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlGZZiJnfW7b; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 958D91201E7; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 04:57:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1262; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562241432; x=1563451032; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=W76KZmBsBfonp39Gd1HsmVVtEkEF5buRzrwV29tvpSc=; b=IVi9EqkvTpoPZvq9opdIs67Tp8WXyNQZJgBoWYLOcsPVd+UeycuN2G0g +lELSSxM4eYb1DhCp/5kVlQYa5KzqmHJnsnDtJpfC73of+11HkVBsBVDq ph01YSfU7GJGbgZAkh8mEuk/l1uJzfZyase4k889WtBbcVGRrxIyK67tE Q=; IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AOyQBCROoJAZVPY71Yrcl6mtXPHoupqn0MwgJ65?= =?us-ascii?q?Eul7NJdOG58o//OFDEu6w/l0fHCIPc7f8My/HbtaztQyQh2d6AqzhDFf4ETB?= =?us-ascii?q?oZkYMTlg0kDtSCDBjjMP73ZSEgAOxJVURu+DewNk0GUMs=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CqAAC/6B1d/5pdJa1mGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBZ4FEUANqVSAECygKhBKDRwOOSoJbl0aBQoEQA1QJAQEBDAE?= =?us-ascii?q?BIwoCAQGEQAIXghMjOBMBAwEBBAEBAgEFbYo3DIVLAQEBAgESEREMAQE3AQQ?= =?us-ascii?q?LAgEIGgImAgICMBUQAQEEDgUfA4MAAYFqAw4PAQIBC5tiAoE4iGBxgTKCeQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BBYUVGIISAwaBDCiLXxeBQD+BOB+CTD6EDE+CczKCJo47L5tfCQKCF4ZWjS0?= =?us-ascii?q?bgiyEDYMRji6Ub498AgQCBAUCDgEBBYFnIYFYcBVlAYJBgkGDcYpTcoEpjEo?= =?us-ascii?q?BgSABAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,451,1557187200"; d="scan'208";a="586797258" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 04 Jul 2019 11:57:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x64BvAl6022416 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:57:10 GMT Received: from xhs-aln-001.cisco.com (173.37.135.118) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 06:57:10 -0500 Received: from xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) by xhs-aln-001.cisco.com (173.37.135.118) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 06:57:09 -0500 Received: from NAM04-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (72.163.14.9) by xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 06:57:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=W76KZmBsBfonp39Gd1HsmVVtEkEF5buRzrwV29tvpSc=; b=aLvJ27VCN+lIYZC1iRknz01hWkeQ1J1SJwVe4/T9KRGlKrf2J2g+b4+TCabKN9+rxCgNvHRm59XkWPG7vzu5FXlFFSeFP4ydLMyZzkV6Ei5YHMb9J/drisOyASUmGUrl9fYOUFmycnRdbsFK9t7fYo0NHI8WFDzjIxUwaNS2Q4o= Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.178.250.159) by MN2PR11MB4335.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (52.135.38.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.17; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:57:09 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2032.019; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:57:08 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" CC: "int-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "" , "raw@ietf.org" , "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "Grossman, Ethan A." 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Thu, 04 Jul 2019 10:16:41 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , , "" , , , "'Grossman, Ethan A.'" , "ccamp-chairs@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 12:16:37 -0400 Message-ID: <16bbdc5fa88.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: AquaMail/1.20.0-1458 (build: 102100001) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 172.58.190.208 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1hj4PZ-0045Rs-20 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPV6:2607:fb90:a85d:4ba2:0:1c:6131:401]) [172.58.190.208]:22750 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] RAW side meeting X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 16:22:28 -0000 Umm, booked room, remote participation, wg group formation based on results - how is this not a bof? ---------- On July 4, 2019 7:49:48 AM "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" wrote: > Pascal, > > do you plan on booking an "Unofficial Side Meeting" room for that? > > -m > > Le 2019-07-04 à 10:10, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a écrit : >> Dear all >> >> I started a Doodle for a RAW side meeting during the IETF 105 meeting in >> Montreal. I’ll arrange for remote participation as needed. >> >> The goal is to complete the study of the proposed charter and ask for a >> WG formation without a second BoF. >> >> Please let us know which time would suit you if you are willing to >> participate here: https://doodle.com/poll/qru2xyewcuxhcthy >> >> All the best, >> >> Pascal >> > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > From nobody Fri Jul 5 00:54:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F26120044; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 00:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham 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cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.19; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:51:55 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2032.022; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:51:55 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "raw@ietf.org" , "int-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "" CC: "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "ccamp-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: More slots in the doodle Thread-Index: AdUzJ3cg46s3xpHWTcicYJ5rLvFgwQ== Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:51:45 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:51:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pthubert@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:44f3:1300:552f:ff32:b86:aad7] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2c08f14f-d99a-4c7d-e2a0-08d7013f2daa 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WUtag8DSBG83ybtPmfnUs0lHvJbSsGwnYXJMR3nve9/q3pwfz5oitQQErfdectCjjfggVb7CIUXIaFNOsxPkWcXKtqoUNrRREy47wuBlREVpp156c0kRwE8uB4wF45QvWXN4Pvg6qXWftxzcoQ/GzZawO2+euXVCRl3LZrptVVGDWVDBWkLZR+2+9xuEqUfSXscpkyWUE5VkxiT8TzTRL/I2L4j9yU+34IpIhxHHoEqedZxoczuR2tDYLn44vzcSgVfanuMpGMKIBlnrdhJSyxA5kAfLeZIKJE8AeuZZSiBbGA5dJkGdzKwRBjxnhNuzULBgEAeAc5KO/X/S2VlF0G69tivKYs8isyCG835NrjSmhAmGvB+ohagDtTTU6PQttMFEEpg+owR1DXAPl17S5T97FsveZ5Ube8K4L7b7rmU= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB3565446CB439803E9A065D94D8F50MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2c08f14f-d99a-4c7d-e2a0-08d7013f2daa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Jul 2019 11:51:55.5286 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pthubert@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3741 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.16, xch-aln-006.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] More slots in the doodle X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 11:52:25 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB3565446CB439803E9A065D94D8F50MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all I recreated the doodle with more slots in it https://doodle.com/poll/irtk4g= irmup3nqq5 Reason is, I should have accounted for the free time 9AM to 10AM but failed= to propose that possibility. If 9-10AM suits you any day please reenter your vote in the new poll. Sorry for the inconvenience. Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565446CB439803E9A065D94D8F50MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

I recreated the doodle with more slots in it https://doodle.com/poll/irtk4girmup3nqq5

Reason is, I should have accounted for the free time= 9AM to 10AM but failed to propose that possibility.

If 9-10AM suits you any day please reenter your vote= in the new poll.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Pascal

--_000_MN2PR11MB3565446CB439803E9A065D94D8F50MN2PR11MB3565namp_-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 06:24:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F271200B2 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlKbJOXnmtxb for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03ABD120026 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CMGW (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910A21AB1E3 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 07:24:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jOCihscDeeyBxjOCih8pOO; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 07:24:44 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=d17FMCl+iBcLRJY6GeUhm8XYcQ5oZpx2LvXYqvX7evs=; b=I2Lew2KVig/cOShuXe17Y8QEPq +uRxPLHncEg/xOXQQEqpmdU5VBMGpoIW89F3iSEupiHDPjoN4dz0VUqe0q1GOrm7XywZ1ErYMjH+T B7QGQ/A9CZNNvU8xnrSh2SQ0h; Received: from static-207-255-178-69.mdde.cpe.atlanticbb.net ([207.255.178.69]:23604 helo=[10.0.0.48]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hjOCh-000o8l-OB; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 07:24:44 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , , "" , , , "'Grossman, Ethan A.'" , "ccamp-chairs@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 09:24:39 -0400 Message-ID: <16bc24ee5d8.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <16bbdc5fa88.27ce.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.20.0-1458 (build: 102100001) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 207.255.178.69 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1hjOCh-000o8l-OB X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: static-207-255-178-69.mdde.cpe.atlanticbb.net ([10.0.0.48]) [207.255.178.69]:23604 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] RAW side meeting X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:24:51 -0000 Pascal, Thanks for the response and explanation. I guess it all comes down to the last sentence in your second point. You can always do a working group forming bof in Singapore since you expect to have critical mass there. Lou ---------- On July 5, 2019 3:54:34 AM "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" wrote: > Hello Lou > > That is because: > > 1) I came too late with the BoF request - actually I asked the ADs and did > not realize that the Wiki was mandatory and missed the date anyway. As a > response to that flow I got that a WG forming BoF is a useful but not a > mandatory step > > 2) The PAW non-WG forming BoF was really good for the context, techs, > etc... Now we have drafts no need to play that again. What we really need > is to refine the charter that we discussed in Prague in a way that > positions unique work in extension but not in collision with DetNet and > CCAMP. Seems we can do that with a side meeting. > > 3) Critical RAW people will not be there in Montreal, a WG forming BoF may > not have looked on the brightest side. They will attend Singapore for the > most part. > > All the best, > > Pascal > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Raw On Behalf Of Lou Berger >> Sent: jeudi 4 juillet 2019 18:17 >> To: Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) >> ; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> ; int-ads@tools.ietf.org; > ads@ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; detnet-chairs@ietf.org; 'Grossman, Ethan A.' >> ; ccamp-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Raw] RAW side meeting >> >> Umm, booked room, remote participation, wg group formation based on >> results >> - how is this not a bof? >> >> >> ---------- >> On July 4, 2019 7:49:48 AM "Vigoureux, Martin (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" >> wrote: >> >> > Pascal, >> > >> > do you plan on booking an "Unofficial Side Meeting" room for that? >> > >> > -m >> > >> > Le 2019-07-04 à 10:10, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) a écrit : >> >> Dear all >> >> >> >> I started a Doodle for a RAW side meeting during the IETF 105 meeting in >> >> Montreal. I’ll arrange for remote participation as needed. >> >> >> >> The goal is to complete the study of the proposed charter and ask for a >> >> WG formation without a second BoF. >> >> >> >> Please let us know which time would suit you if you are willing to >> >> participate here: https://doodle.com/poll/qru2xyewcuxhcthy >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> Pascal >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > Raw mailing list >> > Raw@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >> > >> >> >> -- >> Raw mailing list >> Raw@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Mon Jul 8 01:55:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A37B120106 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:55:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2Ovs0yp3eL7 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout20.partage.renater.fr (smtpout02-ext1.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9711200E7 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 01:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.25]) by smtpout20.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B8ABFBE6 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:55:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7466FA00FB for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:55:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id kGS6KZfRsz3g for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:55:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (lb01.partage.renater.fr [194.254.242.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4D656A00AC for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:55:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Fabrice Theoleyre Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6FFA9C11-3D93-4D7D-91CB-1CF6DC995A46" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <7B169300-489C-4CFA-A314-0A487897F625@unistra.fr> References: <156233193137.21997.1286029639092053969.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: raw@ietf.org Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:55:41 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 08:55:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6FFA9C11-3D93-4D7D-91CB-1CF6DC995A46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear all,=20 As promised during the last raw call, we prepared with Georgios a draft = for OAM operations with RAW. There is still much room for improvement, and additional contributors = are more than welcome.=20 Best regards, Fabrice > D=C3=A9but du message r=C3=A9exp=C3=A9di=C3=A9 : >=20 > De: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Objet: New Version Notification for = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.txt > Date: 5 juillet 2019 =C3=A0 15:05:31 UTC+2 > =C3=80: "Fabrice Theoleyre" , "Georgios Z. = Papadopoulos" , "Georgios = Papadopoulos" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > Revision: 00 > Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) = features for RAW > Document date: 2019-07-05 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.tx= t > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > The wireless medium presents significant specific challenges to > achieve properties similar to those of wired deterministic networks. > At the same time, a number of use cases cannot be solved with wires > and justify the extra effort of going wireless. This document > presents some of these use-cases. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6FFA9C11-3D93-4D7D-91CB-1CF6DC995A46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = all, 

As = promised during the last raw call, we prepared with Georgios a draft for = OAM operations with RAW.

There is still much room for improvement, and additional = contributors are more than welcome. 

Best regards,
Fabrice



D=C3=A9but= du message r=C3=A9exp=C3=A9di=C3=A9 :

De: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Objet: = New Version = Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.txt
Date: = 5 juillet 2019 =C3=A0 15:05:31 = UTC+2
=C3=80: = "Fabrice Theoleyre" <theoleyre@unistra.fr>, "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" = <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>, "Georgios = Papadopoulos" <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>

A new version of I-D, = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support
Revision: 00
Title:= = Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) features for = RAW
Document date: 2019-07-05
Group:= = Individual Submission
Pages: 7
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-su= pport-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-suppor= t/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-00<= /a>
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-s= upport


Abstract:
  The wireless medium presents significant = specific challenges to
  achieve properties = similar to those of wired deterministic networks.
=   At the same time, a number of use cases cannot be solved = with wires
  and justify the extra effort of = going wireless.  This document
  presents = some of these use-cases.




Please note that it may take a couple of = minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized = version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat


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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MN2PR11MB3613; H:MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: sr0mGvKzUnou1afLmy28rc4OSqx5+Q1DvjWsTK3oqWy4Rsiuzi1SqCeqYerr0M1cM5F+AmDiZPpniN/ZWbFcDLfnUMZ875BgVDWvbq3aKy5FQCGQ3VWkMkb7KLhpTX5jifLwpejfkTeo7em8xTfZ6axPDkEJyHhxunDHbGy0dsLPj4xALp9kCuivZwO9S12hDGTbZLIsXyAU6wKgVCnHfMvuDjKgMf9UPvnJhHoAtasjWG8qY8LlHB9Vwdy8giJ8a6+l2gBUBFGuiyioentb+6cOwp03nU3AvUiiSSKrnlKdyPrPLLVv8MDSd3aZMSXCRsbhgRArM5hngmenV+Yg4nsIWBYFS3ohbt3fo3g1jojSZwIkHDcMlA8d8Pmo2fHRgIepLTOAVHlNNnY9IgVfhjdDDHat/5tC4KtPdQPyuZ8= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2cf18d16-044f-400a-6c38-08d7047a8022 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jul 2019 14:34:07.6976 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pthubert@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3613 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.26, xch-rcd-016.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] FW: RAW in Sainte Catherine X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:34:33 -0000 --_004_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_" --_000_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all: I booked a side meeting on RAW charter in room Ste Catherine at 8:30AM Sorry for the people on Pacific time, that was the only way to get an A-D i= n the room and that's critical to get our text right. All the best, Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all:

 

I booked a side meeting on RAW charter in room Ste C= atherine at 8:30AM

Sorry for the people on Pacific time, that was the o= nly way to get an A-D in the room and that’s critical to get our text= right.

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

 

--_000_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_-- --_004_MN2PR11MB35655962D3488A98F3327FCED8F10MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: attachment; creation-date="Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:34:02 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:34:02 GMT" From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Subject: RAW in Sainte Catherine Thread-Index: AdU2WzIgiHGOadP1T1aplvPa1pOa1g== Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:35:38 +0000 Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7880687074717680747867707876697875767769797576697775736_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_7880687074717680747867707876697875767769797576697775736_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --_000_7880687074717680747867707876697875767769797576697775736_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

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a="39366275" X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,473,1557180000"; d="p7s'?scan'208,217";a="39366275" Received: from 122-10.dynamic.rz.unibw-muenchen.de ([137.193.122.10]) by cold1srv.rz.unibw-muenchen.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Jul 2019 10:49:50 +0200 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "raw@ietf.org" References: From: "Dr. Corinna Schmitt" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:49:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080804030807070801050301" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: RAW in Sainte Catherine X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:50:00 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080804030807070801050301 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------77BFA12746770E483D8A29F8" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------77BFA12746770E483D8A29F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pascal, no problem. Can you distribute us the information for remote participation and CEST? Regards from Annual Conference of CODE, Corinna Am 09.07.19 um 16:34 schrieb Pascal Thubert (pthubert): > > Dear all: > > =A0 > > I booked a side meeting on RAW charter in room Ste Catherine at 8:30AM > > Sorry for the people on Pacific time, that was the only way to get an > A-D in the room and that=92s critical to get our text right. > > =A0 > > All the best, > > =A0 > > Pascal > > =A0 > --=20 ****************************************************** Dr. Corinna Schmitt Researcher and Laboratory Supervisor Research Institute CODE Universit=E4t der Bundeswehr M=FCnchen Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39 85577 Neubiberg, Germany Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314 Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de https://www.unibw.de/code https://www.corinna-schmitt.de --------------77BFA12746770E483D8A29F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pascal,

no problem. Can you distribute us the information for remote participation and CEST?

Regards from Annual Conference of CODE,
Corinna




Am 09.07.19 um 16:34 schrieb Pascal Thubert (pthubert):

Dear all:

=A0

I booked a side meeting on RAW charter in room Ste Catherine at 8:30AM

Sorry for the people on Pacific time, that= was the only way to get an A-D in the room and that=92s critica= l to get our text right.

=A0

All the best,

=A0

Pascal

=A0


--=20
******************************************************

Dr. Corinna Schmitt
Researcher and Laboratory Supervisor

Research Institute CODE
Universit=E4t der Bundeswehr M=FCnchen

Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39
85577 Neubiberg, Germany

Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314
Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de
htt=
ps://www.unibw.de/code
https://www.corinna-schmitt.de
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Y/eDysB35K9D8zLbPmXn17at/MQASzgn7pMYkcY4Yy/+X2UoQJeBp9GFJU88+BvZS3ZGbr2W4aj0cFumgOyzawy7V25tfgbDA8ucjH/9yHAMVxBlHefgdaEbqTEgJZI+V3TDdmusUgYcvGUW6B4LYa4AIOFdJcj0EWL8OqqjnEYJHwjB2VRSfnZETUImO+9FTTPx7rdBoUgETfQHP55lr6A5oDrdtd/G/+qkLlxaBfm/JwrBLEMdo9DRc+eXGboAU/qRROpKDOiOhbm1b/zS7zRnfOhCP6p3k9S1Nc8drsbiXCw5+bcELx7rG1udD2TE2UYttIKnVj2r9zzXoXdj/0pLUSiqqdHU50LMlH6OoMf0urE3e2y5ccw4b1fHs3bF56aWYMrSoRAHSY/CuGWDmv71H3kcs3NPVr4sF5Ig6do= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB3565F66A9645DE4D1C34768ED8F30MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cd1a5109-f16a-45b4-c58b-08d7061ed045 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Jul 2019 16:42:50.7594 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pthubert@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4191 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.22, xch-aln-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] RAW side meeting X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:42:58 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB3565F66A9645DE4D1C34768ED8F30MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- Do not delete or change any of the following text. -- Join Meeting number (access code): 205 246 474 Meeting password: egEHuyPT (34348978 from phones) Join by phone Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only) +1-408-525-6800 Cal= l-in toll number (US/Canada) +1-866-432-9903 Cal= l-in toll-free number (US/Canada) Global call-in numbers | Toll-free calling restrictions= Join from a video system or application Dial 205246474@cisco.webex.com You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. >From the Cisco internal network, dial *267* and the 9-digit meeting number.= If you are the host, enter your PIN when prompted. Can't join the meeting? If you are a host, go here to view host information. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this Webex service allows audio and othe= r information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be discover= able in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically consent = to such recordings. If you do not consent to being recorded, discuss your c= oncerns with the host or do not join the session. --_000_MN2PR11MB3565F66A9645DE4D1C34768ED8F30MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-- Do not delete or change any = of the following text. --<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"= >  
 

Join

 

 
Meeting= number (access code): 205 246 474
Meeting password: egEHuyPT (34348978 from phones) 
 

Join by= phone 
Tap to = call in from a mobile device (attendees only) 
+1-408-525-6800&= nbsp;Call-in toll number (US/Canada) 
+1-866-432-9903&= nbsp;Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada) 
Global call-in numbers  |  Toll-free calling restrictions  
 
Join fr= om a video system or application
Dial 205246474@cisco.webex.com<= span style=3D"mso-bookmark:WBX1567C"> 
You can= also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number.  
From th= e Cisco internal network, dial *267* and the 9-digit meeting number. If you= are the host, enter your PIN when prompted.  
 
Can't join th= e meeting?
 
If you are a host, go here to view host information.

IMPORTAN= T NOTICE: Please note that this Webex service allows audio and other inform= ation sent during the session to be recorded, which may be discoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you = automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to being re= corded, discuss your concerns with the host or do not join the session.

 

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(20.178.250.159) by MN2PR11MB3743.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.178.253.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2115.10; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:06:44 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1ce9:1582:146c:c50a%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2094.017; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:06:44 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "raw@ietf.org" CC: Randal Atkinson , "'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)'" Thread-Topic: RAW notes Thread-Index: AdVF8GiXcLOvKXhMTUGrdfDzH7wdJg== Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:06:38 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:06:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pthubert@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c0:1004::257] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email 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INTjocbI7bIiUaCX3GmP8v4bpFEEHnSY1PC/DeAqmzxPYB8bnVzbUvQW7a8tzoqjBPJBBBJso9ZgD7oPMPnSL3CFC8DiXMbBgSsi6dhzEE+3deEZfvXBCILCPVXf/nQGsYk4pL3JwIRDjw2WexAKX+7BwxGCM6yX1mlGRo3ii6APmAr+F+qNoMdlCdi4ydBLya44HFAUM+zsm3uIw6b/e9A9utFRuUdHd8m400QI+3nvtjLDRUWbkxc40Jq1+xgyh8F6BmlhWuCznQvO38w7LKoRDGdx0wIhZLnMux6O5V1kGDil8kb8Wr9LRW2ta6BF7EpqM81MMttqkO6K/mOnN9wAXZZ0k9K86l5YPyh9MHxtnFPO2H6hiwBImKcyFmjmB5YkLGSyAUP9himhSvMIF1PKkNEM+WGiKEooaFNivRQ= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB3565FB5ED19710FC11F14D7FD8DD0MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 537224d0-69e7-4338-396b-08d714259b4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jul 2019 13:06:44.7131 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pthubert@cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3743 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.22, xch-aln-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] RAW notes X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:06:52 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB3565FB5ED19710FC11F14D7FD8DD0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all Many thanks for all those who attended the side meeting last Thursday morni= ng in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-hoc webex. Sorry for the = issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, special thanks to Rand, Lo= u and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs. Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the list for anything I missed= or that I might have misunderstood. Summary: * RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally b= elongs to RTG Area. * The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct. * RAW should stay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach)= . How the PHY is programmed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed,= are unknown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., pro= gramming TSCH slots is out of scope - it may be an item to either recharter= 6TiSCH or form a new WG in INT Area. * The RAW charter should present the work as generic (IP layer), the 4 = technologies being not limitative but examples against which we assert our = generic solution * There may be overlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is we= ll-observed by radio vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards det= erministic networking, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the ve= ry opposite. In more details: * A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end networ= k coding, and possibly radio-specific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, ov= erhearing, frequency diversity, time slotting, and possibly others). How th= e routing operation computes the Track is out of scope for RAW. The scope = of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to = optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the e= xpected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such as= energy and spectrum. * Another prerequisite is that an IP link can be established over the r= adio with some guarantees in terms of service reliability, e.g., it can be = relied upon to transmit a packet within a bounded latency and provides a gu= aranteed BER/PDR outside rare but existing transient outage windows that ca= n last from split seconds to minutes. The radio layer can be programmed wit= h abstract parameters, and can return an abstract view of the state of the = Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET's DLEP). In the layered appro= ach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and out of scope= . Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of scope. * The end-to-end routing can be centralized and can reside outside the = network. Reaching to the routing computation can be slow in regards to the = speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Du= e to the cost and latency to perform a route computation, routing is not ex= pected to be sensitive/reactive to transient changes. The abstraction of a = link at the routing level is expected to use statistical operational metric= s that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repr= esent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. = We distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify = as slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made.= RAW operates at the forwarding time scale on one DetNet flow over one Trac= k. * RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It will consider exi= sting tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM to observe the Tr= ack, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packe= ts. * RAW decisions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Altern= atively, they may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the current st= ate of the next hop and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is= installed in all intermediate nodes to recognize the flow and determine th= e forwarding policy to be applied. Next steps: * Revise the proposed charter * Send the charter to RTG, request formation a WG * Publish a problem statement draft All the best Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565FB5ED19710FC11F14D7FD8DD0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

Many thanks for all those who attended the side meet= ing last Thursday morning in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-ho= c webex. Sorry for the issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, spe= cial thanks to Rand, Lou and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs.

 

Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the lis= t for anything I missed or that I might have misunderstood.

 

Summary:

 

  • RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally belongs to RTG Area.
    • =
  • The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct.
  • RAW should s= tay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach). How the PHY is p= rogrammed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed, are unknown at th= e IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., programming TSCH slots is out of scope = – it may be an item to either recharter 6TiSCH or form a new WG in IN= T Area.
  • The RAW charter should present the work as gen= eric (IP layer), the 4 technologies being not limitative but examples again= st which we assert our generic solution
  • There may be o= verlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is well-observed by radio= vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards deterministic networkin= g, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the very opposite.

 

 

In more details:

 

  • A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding, and possibly radio-specific abst= racted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing, frequency diversity, time slott= ing, and possibly others). How the  routing operation computes the Tra= ck is out of scope for RAW. The scope of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to= optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the = expected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such a= s energy and spectrum.
  • Another prerequisite is that a= n IP link can be established over the radio with some guarantees in terms o= f service reliability, e.g., it can be relied upon to transmit a packet wit= hin a bounded latency and provides a guaranteed BER/PDR outside rare but exist= ing transient outage windows that can last from split seconds to minutes. T= he radio layer can be programmed with abstract parameters, and can return a= n abstract view of the state of the Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET’s DLEP). In the la= yered approach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and o= ut of scope. Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of = scope.
  • The end-to-end routing can be centralized and c= an reside outside the network. Reaching to the routing computation can be s= low in regards to the speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Due to the cost and latency to perform a rou= te computation, routing is not expected to be sensitive/reactive to transie= nt changes. The abstraction of a link at the routing level is expected to u= se statistical operational metrics that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repre= sent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. W= e distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify a= s slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made. RAW operates at the forwarding = time scale on one DetNet flow over one Track.
  • RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It w= ill consider existing tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM t= o observe the Track, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packets.
  • RAW decisions= may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Alternatively, they may b= e made at intermediate hops and depend on the current state of the next hop= and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is installed in all intermediate nodes to= recognize the flow and determine the forwarding policy to be applied.=

 

 

Next steps:

 

  • Revise the proposed charter
  • Send the charter to = RTG, request formation a WG
  • Publish a problem statemen= t draft

 

All the best

 

Pascal

 

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, Thank you for the notes! Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be done as we cannot yet = claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking a= ddressed; however, the details of the work to be done are not clear for me = at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or n= ot a new WG is needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the = work to address missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups. I agree that a problem statement draft would be a great next step. It would= be even better if gap analysis could be included. Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discussed at the relevant WG= s, so we could see what they say to the problem and the gaps, what they cou= ld do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which were brought up at the se= ssion, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet-overview-00.pdf. My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of the IETF that is overal= l responsible for the architecture to provide Deterministic Networking on L= ayer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessary keeping in mind to le= verage existing work as much as possible. "RAW extends DetNet" reads to me that DetNet extensions necessary for wirel= ess should be done in DetNet. For instance, if additional parameters would = be needed for a DetNet flow supported by wireless segments, then that could= be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I'd b= e glad to see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wirel= ess, and address those needs in DetNet. As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as potentially very usefu= l. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times as CCAMP has addressed = various technologies that may have a lot of similarities, e.g., microwave r= ecently. I agree that radio layer details should remain abstract from Layer 3 perspe= ctive. Actually, my layered view is: . . . ---------------------- DetNet ----------------------- optionally: TSN ----------------------- Radio Technology ----------------------- I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered view. It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side meeting and did not sp= end time on the two information item I thought to share. I can share it now= . It is just background information, but still may be somewhat relevant. There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for deterministic wireless. For inst= ance: 3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integration with IEEE 802.1 TS= N networks. The architectural extensions to support integration of IEEE 802= ..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. For lack of better furth= er reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange = on the subject: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Monday_TSN IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a joint session to see wher= e we are with WLAN - TSN integration and what could be done: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_8211_8021_TSN (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilities mentioned above: It is t= he IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the overall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN archit= ecture.) The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer view is that in case of a = wireless - TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may leverage such a subnet. I'm looking forward to see the problem statement and gap analysis to see wh= at is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking. My 2 cents, Best regards, Janos Ps: I'm sorry for sending this mail from vacation; which may imply delayed resp= onse on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may be better to share these tho= ughts earlier than later. From: Raw On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM To: raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' ; Randal Atkinson Subject: [Raw] RAW notes Dear all Many thanks for all those who attended the side meeting last Thursday morni= ng in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-hoc webex. Sorry for the = issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, special thanks to Rand, Lo= u and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs. Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the list for anything I missed= or that I might have misunderstood. Summary: * RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally b= elongs to RTG Area. * The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct. * RAW should stay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach)= . How the PHY is programmed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed,= are unknown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., pro= gramming TSCH slots is out of scope - it may be an item to either recharter= 6TiSCH or form a new WG in INT Area. * The RAW charter should present the work as generic (IP layer), the 4 = technologies being not limitative but examples against which we assert our = generic solution * There may be overlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is we= ll-observed by radio vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards det= erministic networking, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the ve= ry opposite. In more details: * A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end networ= k coding, and possibly radio-specific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, ov= erhearing, frequency diversity, time slotting, and possibly others). How th= e routing operation computes the Track is out of scope for RAW. The scope = of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to = optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the e= xpected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such as= energy and spectrum. * Another prerequisite is that an IP link can be established over the r= adio with some guarantees in terms of service reliability, e.g., it can be = relied upon to transmit a packet within a bounded latency and provides a gu= aranteed BER/PDR outside rare but existing transient outage windows that ca= n last from split seconds to minutes. The radio layer can be programmed wit= h abstract parameters, and can return an abstract view of the state of the = Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET's DLEP). In the layered appro= ach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and out of scope= . Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of scope. * The end-to-end routing can be centralized and can reside outside the = network. Reaching to the routing computation can be slow in regards to the = speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Du= e to the cost and latency to perform a route computation, routing is not ex= pected to be sensitive/reactive to transient changes. The abstraction of a = link at the routing level is expected to use statistical operational metric= s that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repr= esent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. = We distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify = as slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made.= RAW operates at the forwarding time scale on one DetNet flow over one Trac= k. * RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It will consider exi= sting tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM to observe the Tr= ack, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packe= ts. * RAW decisions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Altern= atively, they may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the current st= ate of the next hop and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is= installed in all intermediate nodes to recognize the flow and determine th= e forwarding policy to be applied. Next steps: * Revise the proposed charter * Send the charter to RTG, request formation a WG * Publish a problem statement draft All the best Pascal --_000_VI1PR07MB5213FFBEA6DB663EE3B4902FF2DD0VI1PR07MB5213eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pascal,

 

Thank you for the notes!

 

Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be= done as we cannot yet claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministi= c wireless networking addressed; however, the details of the work to be don= e are not clear for me at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or not a new WG i= s needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the work to addre= ss missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups.

 

I agree that a problem statement draft would be a gr= eat next step. It would be even better if gap analysis could be included.

Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discu= ssed at the relevant WGs, so we could see what they say to the problem and = the gaps, what they could do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which we= re brought up at the session, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet= -overview-00.pdf.

 

My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of = the IETF that is overall responsible for the architecture to provide Determ= inistic Networking on Layer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessar= y keeping in mind to leverage existing work as much as possible.

 

“RAW extends DetNet” reads to me that De= tNet extensions necessary for wireless should be done in DetNet. For instan= ce, if additional parameters would be needed for a DetNet flow supported by= wireless segments, then that could be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I’d be glad to= see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wireless, and = address those needs in DetNet.

 

As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as= potentially very useful. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times = as CCAMP has addressed various technologies that may have a lot of similari= ties, e.g., microwave recently.

 

I agree that radio layer details should remain abstr= act from Layer 3 perspective.

 

Actually, my layered view is:

 

.

.

.

----------------------

DetNet

-----------------------

optionally: TSN

-----------------------

Radio Technology

-----------------------

 

 

I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered v= iew.

 

 

It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side= meeting and did not spend time on the two information item I thought to sh= are. I can share it now. It is just background information, but still may b= e somewhat relevant.

 

There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for determini= stic wireless. For instance:

 

3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integra= tion with IEEE 802.1 TSN networks. The architectural extensions to support = integration of IEEE 802..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. F= or lack of better further reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange on the subjec= t:

https://1.ieee802.org/j= uly-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-agenda/#Monday_TSN

 

IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a jo= int session to see where we are with WLAN – TSN integration and what = could be done:

h= ttps://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-age= nda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_8211_8021_TSN

 (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilit= ies mentioned above: It is the IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the ove= rall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN architecture.)

 

The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer vie= w is that in case of a wireless – TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may l= everage such a subnet.

 

 

I’m looking forward to see the problem stateme= nt and gap analysis to see what is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wirele= ss networking.

 

My 2 cents,

Best regards,

Janos

 

 

Ps:

I’m sorry for sending this mail from vacation;= which may imply delayed response on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may= be better to share these thoughts earlier than later.

 

 

 

 

From: Raw <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' <lberger@labn.net>; Randal= Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: [Raw] RAW notes

 

Dear all

 

Many thanks for all those who attended the side meet= ing last Thursday morning in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-ho= c webex. Sorry for the issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, spe= cial thanks to Rand, Lou and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs.

 

Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the lis= t for anything I missed or that I might have misunderstood.

 

Summary:

 

  • RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally belongs to RTG Area.
    • =
  • The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct.
  • RAW should s= tay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach). How the PHY is p= rogrammed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed, are unknown at th= e IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., programming TSCH slots is out of scope = – it may be an item to either recharter 6TiSCH or form a new WG in IN= T Area.
  • The RAW charter should present the work as gen= eric (IP layer), the 4 technologies being not limitative but examples again= st which we assert our generic solution
  • There may be o= verlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is well-observed by radio= vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards deterministic networkin= g, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the very opposite.

 

 

In more details:

 

  • A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding, and possibly radio-specific abst= racted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing, frequency diversity, time slott= ing, and possibly others). How the  routing operation computes the Tra= ck is out of scope for RAW. The scope of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to= optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the = expected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such a= s energy and spectrum.
  • Another prerequisite is that a= n IP link can be established over the radio with some guarantees in terms o= f service reliability, e.g., it can be relied upon to transmit a packet wit= hin a bounded latency and provides a guaranteed BER/PDR outside rare but exist= ing transient outage windows that can last from split seconds to minutes. T= he radio layer can be programmed with abstract parameters, and can return a= n abstract view of the state of the Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET’s DLEP). In the la= yered approach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and o= ut of scope. Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of = scope.
  • The end-to-end routing can be centralized and c= an reside outside the network. Reaching to the routing computation can be s= low in regards to the speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Due to the cost and latency to perform a rou= te computation, routing is not expected to be sensitive/reactive to transie= nt changes. The abstraction of a link at the routing level is expected to u= se statistical operational metrics that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repre= sent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. W= e distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify a= s slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made. RAW operates at the forwarding = time scale on one DetNet flow over one Track.
  • RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It w= ill consider existing tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM t= o observe the Track, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packets.
  • RAW decisions= may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Alternatively, they may b= e made at intermediate hops and depend on the current state of the next hop= and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is installed in all intermediate nodes to= recognize the flow and determine the forwarding policy to be applied.=

 

 

Next steps:

 

  • Revise the proposed charter
  • Send the charter to = RTG, request formation a WG
  • Publish a problem statemen= t draft

 

All the best

 

Pascal

 

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Janos Many thanks for the long email, demonstrates great care and that's really a= ppreciated. Please see below All the best, Pascal From: Janos Farkas Sent: lundi 29 juillet 2019 18:00 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' ; Randal Atkinson Subject: RE: RAW notes Hi Pascal, Thank you for the notes! Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be done as we cannot yet = claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking a= ddressed; however, the details of the work to be done are not clear for me = at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or n= ot a new WG is needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the = work to address missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups. I agree that a problem statement draft would be a great next step. It would= be even better if gap analysis could be included. ? We are on it Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discussed at the relevant WG= s, so we could see what they say to the problem and the gaps, what they cou= ld do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which were brought up at the se= ssion, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet-overview-00.pdf. My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of the IETF that is overal= l responsible for the architecture to provide Deterministic Networking on L= ayer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessary keeping in mind to le= verage existing work as much as possible. "RAW extends DetNet" reads to me that DetNet extensions necessary for wirel= ess should be done in DetNet. For instance, if additional parameters would = be needed for a DetNet flow supported by wireless segments, then that could= be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I'd b= e glad to see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wirel= ess, and address those needs in DetNet. ? Well, 6man is responsible for IPv6, but the many "IPv6 over foo" are h= andled elsewhere, e.g., 6lo, and we've been successful at forming WGs like = that one that specialize on a certain aspect. ? I think we agree that a WG should not attempt to boil the ocean. Seems= that the mainstream DetNet has been pretty busy so far with mostly Wired /= SP concerns with MPLS and pseudowire, and the group is far from being fini= shed on that. Things evolved positively for wireless, but initially PREOD d= id not have a O, the model was replicate at ingress and eliminate at egress= , great on wires but largely inadequate for wireless. Still today, there is= no concern about optimizing the usage of the DetNet path for energy or spe= ctrum, and simple techniques like ARQ and overhearing do not seem to exist = at all. ? If the argument for not forming RAW is that DetNet is handling the top= ic in house, then DetNet should add RAW's items in its charter. I'm not aga= inst it at all, I helped start DetNet with that in mind, and so far was dis= appointed. But say it does, then should DetNet meet 3-4 times per IETF? Thi= s is not our model, we prefer more specialized / smaller groups. ? I think the most important aspect we achieve with a specialized WG is = to attract a more specific crowd that may not show up at the IETF otherwise= and can really talk to one another on their particular domain. Merging all= work items dilutes the value of the WG for each participants and drives th= em away. ? IOW People who do not care about the specialized topic do not need to = show up, like DetNet people with only an SP interest will not visit RAW and= may attend another group scheduled at the same time. I like that way of th= e IETF work when we have the right people in the right room, with smaller r= ooms, though agreeably collisions that sometimes hurt. ? In the case of wireless I tried since inception of the WG to get Wirele= ss topics in. You know and I know that wireless was always a thing at the e= dge. DetNet does not look at the problems that I am now facing for our next= deployments and I need a place to work on them, else we'll ship proprietar= y stuff and no one wants that. As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as potentially very usefu= l. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times as CCAMP has addressed = various technologies that may have a lot of similarities, e.g., microwave r= ecently. ? ? Another analog case I'm well aware of is 6TiSCH. 6TiSCH did a lot of w= ork on putting solutions together and pushing the needed RFC work in the re= levant WGs. It did quite little on new standard specs, mostly the glue that= had no home either at IETF or IEEE. I can list more RFCs from ROLL and 6lo= that help accomplish the 6TiSCH architecture than from 6TiSCH itself. But = we needed 6TiSCH to maintain the overall picture of what was going on. ? I expect RAW to generate work for the WGs you indicate, and ask for De= tNet reviews for some specs just like the IPv6-oevr-Foo ask for review from= 6man occasionally. I agree that radio layer details should remain abstract from Layer 3 perspe= ctive. ? To a point. Some needs come from the radio layers and people who do n= ot work on radios are not motivated to solve radio-specific issues. Models = that do not understand scheduled radios cannot program the forms of diversi= ty that enable DetNet services. OTOH, the abstraction that we want for RAW = should be abstract enough to represent OFDMA as well as TSCH, both capable = of injecting diversity in time and frequency. Actually, my layered view is: . . . ---------------------- DetNet ----------------------- optionally: TSN ----------------------- Radio Technology ----------------------- I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered view. ? There's more than one DetNet functionality, TSN is probably not everyt= hing we'll ever need in particular with radios, and there are many radio te= chnologies. We'll keep forming groups in all layers. Think IEEE 802.11be, a= ren't they needed? It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side meeting and did not sp= end time on the two information item I thought to share. I can share it now= . It is just background information, but still may be somewhat relevant. There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for deterministic wireless. For inst= ance: 3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integration with IEEE 802.1 TS= N networks. The architectural extensions to support integration of IEEE 802= ..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. For lack of better furth= er reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange = on the subject: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Monday_TSN IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a joint session to see wher= e we are with WLAN - TSN integration and what could be done: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_8211_8021_TSN (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilities mentioned above: It is t= he IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the overall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN archit= ecture.) The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer view is that in case of a = wireless - TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may leverage such a subnet. ? Suer. EHT (.11be) enables .11 extensions to support TSN-like feature. = Note that it cannot be the plain application of TSN as is, e.g., the concep= t of preemption is revisited. ? RAW actually enables DetNet extensions to optimize resources at forwar= ding time over a IP-multihop network. All good, and you never see one-WG-do= es-it-all at any layer. I'm looking forward to see the problem statement and gap analysis to see wh= at is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking. ? Sure, and then again, the group that builds the solution is not necess= arily the group that builds the individual tools. As soon as you need a col= lection of tools or tools extensions, its good to have a WG that centralize= s the requests and monitors the progress overall. Many thanks! Pascal Ps: I'm sorry for sending this mail from vacation; which may imply delayed resp= onse on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may be better to share these tho= ughts earlier than later. From: Raw > On Behalf Of = Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM To: raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' >; Randal Atkinson > Subject: [Raw] RAW notes Dear all Many thanks for all those who attended the side meeting last Thursday morni= ng in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-hoc webex. Sorry for the = issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, special thanks to Rand, Lo= u and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs. Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the list for anything I missed= or that I might have misunderstood. Summary: * RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally b= elongs to RTG Area. * The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct. * RAW should stay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach)= . How the PHY is programmed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed,= are unknown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., pro= gramming TSCH slots is out of scope - it may be an item to either recharter= 6TiSCH or form a new WG in INT Area. * The RAW charter should present the work as generic (IP layer), the 4 = technologies being not limitative but examples against which we assert our = generic solution * There may be overlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is we= ll-observed by radio vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards det= erministic networking, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the ve= ry opposite. In more details: * A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end networ= k coding, and possibly radio-specific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, ov= erhearing, frequency diversity, time slotting, and possibly others). How th= e routing operation computes the Track is out of scope for RAW. The scope = of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to = optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the e= xpected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such as= energy and spectrum. * Another prerequisite is that an IP link can be established over the r= adio with some guarantees in terms of service reliability, e.g., it can be = relied upon to transmit a packet within a bounded latency and provides a gu= aranteed BER/PDR outside rare but existing transient outage windows that ca= n last from split seconds to minutes. The radio layer can be programmed wit= h abstract parameters, and can return an abstract view of the state of the = Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET's DLEP). In the layered appro= ach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and out of scope= . Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of scope. * The end-to-end routing can be centralized and can reside outside the = network. Reaching to the routing computation can be slow in regards to the = speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Du= e to the cost and latency to perform a route computation, routing is not ex= pected to be sensitive/reactive to transient changes. The abstraction of a = link at the routing level is expected to use statistical operational metric= s that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repr= esent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. = We distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify = as slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made.= RAW operates at the forwarding time scale on one DetNet flow over one Trac= k. * RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It will consider exi= sting tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM to observe the Tr= ack, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packe= ts. * RAW decisions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Altern= atively, they may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the current st= ate of the next hop and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is= installed in all intermediate nodes to recognize the flow and determine th= e forwarding policy to be applied. Next steps: * Revise the proposed charter * Send the charter to RTG, request formation a WG * Publish a problem statement draft All the best Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565005372C48E260DCF2BEFD8DC0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Janos

 

Many thanks for the long email, demonstrates grea= t care and that’s really appreciated.

Please see below

 

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

 

From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.= com>
Sent: lundi 29 juillet 2019 18:00
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; raw@ietf.o= rg
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' <lberger@labn.net>; Randal= Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: RAW notes

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Thank you for the notes!

 

Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be= done as we cannot yet claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministi= c wireless networking addressed; however, the details of the work to be don= e are not clear for me at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or not a new WG i= s needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the work to addre= ss missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups.

 

I agree that a problem statement draft would be a gr= eat next step. It would be even better if gap analysis could be included.

 

Ø    We are on it

 

Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discu= ssed at the relevant WGs, so we could see what they say to the problem and = the gaps, what they could do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which we= re brought up at the session, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet= -overview-00.pdf.

 

My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of = the IETF that is overall responsible for the architecture to provide Determ= inistic Networking on Layer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessar= y keeping in mind to leverage existing work as much as possible.

 

“RAW extends DetNet” reads to me that De= tNet extensions necessary for wireless should be done in DetNet. For instan= ce, if additional parameters would be needed for a DetNet flow supported by= wireless segments, then that could be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I’d be glad to= see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wireless, and = address those needs in DetNet.

 

Ø    Well, 6man is responsible for IPv6, but the = many “IPv6 over foo” are handled elsewhere, e.g., 6lo, and we&#= 8217;ve been successful at forming WGs like that one that specialize on a c= ertain aspect.

Ø    I think we agree that a WG should not attemp= t to boil the ocean. Seems that the mainstream DetNet has been pretty busy = so far with mostly Wired / SP concerns with MPLS and pseudowire, and the gr= oup is far from being finished on that. Things evolved positively for wireless, but initially PREOD did not = have a O, the model was replicate at ingress and eliminate at egress, great= on wires but largely inadequate for wireless. Still today, there is no con= cern about optimizing the usage of the DetNet path for energy or spectrum, and simple techniques like ARQ = and overhearing do not seem to exist at all.

Ø    If the argument for not forming RAW is that = DetNet is handling the topic in house, then DetNet should add RAW’s i= tems in its charter. I’m not against it at all, I helped start DetNet= with that in mind, and so far was disappointed. But say it does, then should DetNet meet 3-4 times per IETF? This is not o= ur model, we prefer more specialized / smaller groups.

Ø    I think the most important aspect we achieve= with a specialized WG is to attract a more specific crowd that may not sho= w up at the IETF otherwise and can really talk to one another on their part= icular domain. Merging all work items dilutes the value of the WG for each participants and drives them aw= ay.  

Ø    IOW People who do not care about the special= ized topic do not need to show up, like DetNet people with only an SP inter= est will not visit RAW and may attend another group scheduled at the same t= ime. I like that way of the IETF work when we have the right people in the right room, with smaller rooms, = though agreeably collisions that sometimes hurt.

Ø   In the case of wireless I tried since incept= ion of the WG to get Wireless topics in. You know and I know that wireless = was always a thing at the edge. DetNet does not look at the problems that I= am now facing for our next deployments and I need a place to work on them, else we’ll ship proprietary stuf= f and no one wants that.

As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as= potentially very useful. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times = as CCAMP has addressed various technologies that may have a lot of similari= ties, e.g., microwave recently.

 

Ø     

Ø    Another analog case I’m well aware of = is 6TiSCH. 6TiSCH did a lot of work on putting solutions together and pushi= ng the needed RFC work in the relevant WGs. It did quite little on new stan= dard specs, mostly the glue that had no home either at IETF or IEEE. I can list more RFCs from ROLL and 6lo that h= elp accomplish the 6TiSCH architecture than from 6TiSCH itself. But we need= ed 6TiSCH to maintain the overall picture of what was going on.<= /p>

Ø    I expect RAW to generate work for the WGs yo= u indicate, and ask for DetNet reviews for some specs just like the IPv6-oe= vr-Foo ask for review from 6man occasionally.

 

 

I agree that radio layer details should remain abstr= act from Layer 3 perspective.

 

Ø    To a point. Some needs come from the radio &= nbsp;layers and people who do not work on radios are not motivated to solve= radio-specific issues. Models that do not understand scheduled radios cann= ot program the forms of diversity that enable DetNet services. OTOH, the abstraction that we want for RAW should = be abstract enough to represent OFDMA as well as TSCH, both capable of inje= cting diversity in time and frequency.

 

 

 

Actually, my layered view is:

 

.

.

.

----------------------

DetNet

-----------------------

optionally: TSN

-----------------------

Radio Technology

-----------------------

 

 

I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered v= iew.

 

Ø    There’s more than one DetNet functiona= lity, TSN is probably not everything we’ll ever need in particular wi= th radios, and there are many radio technologies. We’ll keep forming = groups in all layers. Think IEEE 802.11be, aren’t they needed?

 

 

It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side= meeting and did not spend time on the two information item I thought to sh= are. I can share it now. It is just background information, but still may b= e somewhat relevant.

 

There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for determini= stic wireless. For instance:

 

3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integra= tion with IEEE 802.1 TSN networks. The architectural extensions to support = integration of IEEE 802..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. F= or lack of better further reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange on the subjec= t:

https://1.ieee802.org/j= uly-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-agenda/#Monday_TSN

 

IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a jo= int session to see where we are with WLAN – TSN integration and what = could be done:

h= ttps://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-age= nda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_8211_8021_TSN

 (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilit= ies mentioned above: It is the IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the ove= rall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN architecture.)

 

The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer vie= w is that in case of a wireless – TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may l= everage such a subnet.

 

Ø    Suer. EHT (.11be) enables .11 extensions to = support TSN-like feature. Note that it cannot be the plain application of T= SN as is, e.g., the concept of preemption is revisited.

Ø    RAW actually enables DetNet extensions to op= timize resources at forwarding time over a IP-multihop network. All good, a= nd you never see one-WG-does-it-all at any layer.

 

 

I’m looking forward to see the problem stateme= nt and gap analysis to see what is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wirele= ss networking.

 

Ø    Sure, and then again, the group that builds = the solution is not necessarily the group that builds the individual tools.= As soon as you need a collection of tools or tools extensions, its good to= have a WG that centralizes the requests and monitors the progress overall.

 

Many thanks!

 

Pascal

 

 

Ps:

I’m sorry for sending this mail from vacation;= which may imply delayed response on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may= be better to share these thoughts earlier than later.

 

 

 

 

From: Raw <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.ne= t)' <lberger@labn.net>; R= andal Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.c= om>
Subject: [Raw] RAW notes

 

Dear all

 

Many thanks for all those who attended the side meet= ing last Thursday morning in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-ho= c webex. Sorry for the issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, spe= cial thanks to Rand, Lou and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs.

 

Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the lis= t for anything I missed or that I might have misunderstood.

 

Summary:

 

  • RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally belongs to RTG Area.
    • =
  • The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct.
  • RAW should s= tay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach). How the PHY is p= rogrammed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed, are unknown at th= e IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., programming TSCH slots is out of scope = – it may be an item to either recharter 6TiSCH or form a new WG in IN= T Area.
  • The RAW charter should present the work as gen= eric (IP layer), the 4 technologies being not limitative but examples again= st which we assert our generic solution
  • There may be o= verlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is well-observed by radio= vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards deterministic networkin= g, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the very opposite.

 

 

In more details:

 

  • A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding, and possibly radio-specific abst= racted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing, frequency diversity, time slott= ing, and possibly others). How the  routing operation computes the Tra= ck is out of scope for RAW. The scope of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to= optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the = expected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such a= s energy and spectrum.
  • Another prerequisite is that a= n IP link can be established over the radio with some guarantees in terms o= f service reliability, e.g., it can be relied upon to transmit a packet wit= hin a bounded latency and provides a guaranteed BER/PDR outside rare but exist= ing transient outage windows that can last from split seconds to minutes. T= he radio layer can be programmed with abstract parameters, and can return a= n abstract view of the state of the Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET’s DLEP). In the la= yered approach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and o= ut of scope. Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of = scope.
  • The end-to-end routing can be centralized and c= an reside outside the network. Reaching to the routing computation can be s= low in regards to the speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Due to the cost and latency to perform a rou= te computation, routing is not expected to be sensitive/reactive to transie= nt changes. The abstraction of a link at the routing level is expected to u= se statistical operational metrics that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repre= sent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. W= e distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify a= s slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made. RAW operates at the forwarding = time scale on one DetNet flow over one Track.
  • RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It w= ill consider existing tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM t= o observe the Track, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packets.
  • RAW decisions= may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Alternatively, they may b= e made at intermediate hops and depend on the current state of the next hop= and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is installed in all intermediate nodes to= recognize the flow and determine the forwarding policy to be applied.=

 

 

Next steps:

 

  • Revise the proposed charter
  • Send the charter to = RTG, request formation a WG
  • Publish a problem statemen= t draft

 

All the best

 

Pascal

 

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