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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, Thank you very much for the detailed response! I think it is good that our views have been put on the table; I hope it hel= ps moving on. However, I'm skipping one-by-one response as I am not sure how much additio= nal benefit it would bring to the group at this stage. In any case, we may agree or disagree on sub-items; we agree on the main on= e: nest step is problem statement draft. So, I'm looking forward to see the= draft. Thank you! Best regards, Janos From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 4:59 PM To: Janos Farkas ; raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' ; Randal Atkinson Subject: RE: RAW notes Hello Janos Many thanks for the long email, demonstrates great care and that's really a= ppreciated. Please see below All the best, Pascal From: Janos Farkas > Sent: lundi 29 juillet 2019 18:00 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' >; Randal Atkinson > Subject: RE: RAW notes Hi Pascal, Thank you for the notes! Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be done as we cannot yet = claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking a= ddressed; however, the details of the work to be done are not clear for me = at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or n= ot a new WG is needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the = work to address missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups. I agree that a problem statement draft would be a great next step. It would= be even better if gap analysis could be included. ? We are on it Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discussed at the relevant WG= s, so we could see what they say to the problem and the gaps, what they cou= ld do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which were brought up at the se= ssion, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet-overview-00.pdf. My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of the IETF that is overal= l responsible for the architecture to provide Deterministic Networking on L= ayer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessary keeping in mind to le= verage existing work as much as possible. "RAW extends DetNet" reads to me that DetNet extensions necessary for wirel= ess should be done in DetNet. For instance, if additional parameters would = be needed for a DetNet flow supported by wireless segments, then that could= be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I'd b= e glad to see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wirel= ess, and address those needs in DetNet. ? Well, 6man is responsible for IPv6, but the many "IPv6 over foo" are h= andled elsewhere, e.g., 6lo, and we've been successful at forming WGs like = that one that specialize on a certain aspect. ? I think we agree that a WG should not attempt to boil the ocean. Seems= that the mainstream DetNet has been pretty busy so far with mostly Wired /= SP concerns with MPLS and pseudowire, and the group is far from being fini= shed on that. Things evolved positively for wireless, but initially PREOD d= id not have a O, the model was replicate at ingress and eliminate at egress= , great on wires but largely inadequate for wireless. Still today, there is= no concern about optimizing the usage of the DetNet path for energy or spe= ctrum, and simple techniques like ARQ and overhearing do not seem to exist = at all. ? If the argument for not forming RAW is that DetNet is handling the top= ic in house, then DetNet should add RAW's items in its charter. I'm not aga= inst it at all, I helped start DetNet with that in mind, and so far was dis= appointed. But say it does, then should DetNet meet 3-4 times per IETF? Thi= s is not our model, we prefer more specialized / smaller groups. ? I think the most important aspect we achieve with a specialized WG is = to attract a more specific crowd that may not show up at the IETF otherwise= and can really talk to one another on their particular domain. Merging all= work items dilutes the value of the WG for each participants and drives th= em away. ? IOW People who do not care about the specialized topic do not need to = show up, like DetNet people with only an SP interest will not visit RAW and= may attend another group scheduled at the same time. I like that way of th= e IETF work when we have the right people in the right room, with smaller r= ooms, though agreeably collisions that sometimes hurt. ? In the case of wireless I tried since inception of the WG to get Wirele= ss topics in. You know and I know that wireless was always a thing at the e= dge. DetNet does not look at the problems that I am now facing for our next= deployments and I need a place to work on them, else we'll ship proprietar= y stuff and no one wants that. As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as potentially very usefu= l. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times as CCAMP has addressed = various technologies that may have a lot of similarities, e.g., microwave r= ecently. ? ? Another analog case I'm well aware of is 6TiSCH. 6TiSCH did a lot of w= ork on putting solutions together and pushing the needed RFC work in the re= levant WGs. It did quite little on new standard specs, mostly the glue that= had no home either at IETF or IEEE. I can list more RFCs from ROLL and 6lo= that help accomplish the 6TiSCH architecture than from 6TiSCH itself. But = we needed 6TiSCH to maintain the overall picture of what was going on. ? I expect RAW to generate work for the WGs you indicate, and ask for De= tNet reviews for some specs just like the IPv6-oevr-Foo ask for review from= 6man occasionally. I agree that radio layer details should remain abstract from Layer 3 perspe= ctive. ? To a point. Some needs come from the radio layers and people who do n= ot work on radios are not motivated to solve radio-specific issues. Models = that do not understand scheduled radios cannot program the forms of diversi= ty that enable DetNet services. OTOH, the abstraction that we want for RAW = should be abstract enough to represent OFDMA as well as TSCH, both capable = of injecting diversity in time and frequency. Actually, my layered view is: . . . ---------------------- DetNet ----------------------- optionally: TSN ----------------------- Radio Technology ----------------------- I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered view. ? There's more than one DetNet functionality, TSN is probably not everyt= hing we'll ever need in particular with radios, and there are many radio te= chnologies. We'll keep forming groups in all layers. Think IEEE 802.11be, a= ren't they needed? It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side meeting and did not sp= end time on the two information item I thought to share. I can share it now= . It is just background information, but still may be somewhat relevant. There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for deterministic wireless. For inst= ance: 3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integration with IEEE 802.1 TS= N networks. The architectural extensions to support integration of IEEE 802= ..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. For lack of better furth= er reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange = on the subject: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Monday_TSN IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a joint session to see wher= e we are with WLAN - TSN integration and what could be done: https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-ag= enda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_8211_8021_TSN (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilities mentioned above: It is t= he IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the overall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN archit= ecture.) The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer view is that in case of a = wireless - TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may leverage such a subnet. ? Suer. EHT (.11be) enables .11 extensions to support TSN-like feature. = Note that it cannot be the plain application of TSN as is, e.g., the concep= t of preemption is revisited. ? RAW actually enables DetNet extensions to optimize resources at forwar= ding time over a IP-multihop network. All good, and you never see one-WG-do= es-it-all at any layer. I'm looking forward to see the problem statement and gap analysis to see wh= at is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wireless networking. ? Sure, and then again, the group that builds the solution is not necess= arily the group that builds the individual tools. As soon as you need a col= lection of tools or tools extensions, its good to have a WG that centralize= s the requests and monitors the progress overall. Many thanks! Pascal Ps: I'm sorry for sending this mail from vacation; which may imply delayed resp= onse on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may be better to share these tho= ughts earlier than later. From: Raw > On Behalf Of = Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM To: raw@ietf.org Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' >; Randal Atkinson > Subject: [Raw] RAW notes Dear all Many thanks for all those who attended the side meeting last Thursday morni= ng in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-hoc webex. Sorry for the = issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, special thanks to Rand, Lo= u and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs. Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the list for anything I missed= or that I might have misunderstood. Summary: * RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally b= elongs to RTG Area. * The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct. * RAW should stay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach)= . How the PHY is programmed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed,= are unknown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., pro= gramming TSCH slots is out of scope - it may be an item to either recharter= 6TiSCH or form a new WG in INT Area. * The RAW charter should present the work as generic (IP layer), the 4 = technologies being not limitative but examples against which we assert our = generic solution * There may be overlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is we= ll-observed by radio vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards det= erministic networking, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the ve= ry opposite. In more details: * A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end networ= k coding, and possibly radio-specific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, ov= erhearing, frequency diversity, time slotting, and possibly others). How th= e routing operation computes the Track is out of scope for RAW. The scope = of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to = optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the e= xpected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such as= energy and spectrum. * Another prerequisite is that an IP link can be established over the r= adio with some guarantees in terms of service reliability, e.g., it can be = relied upon to transmit a packet within a bounded latency and provides a gu= aranteed BER/PDR outside rare but existing transient outage windows that ca= n last from split seconds to minutes. The radio layer can be programmed wit= h abstract parameters, and can return an abstract view of the state of the = Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET's DLEP). In the layered appro= ach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and out of scope= . Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of scope. * The end-to-end routing can be centralized and can reside outside the = network. Reaching to the routing computation can be slow in regards to the = speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Du= e to the cost and latency to perform a route computation, routing is not ex= pected to be sensitive/reactive to transient changes. The abstraction of a = link at the routing level is expected to use statistical operational metric= s that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repr= esent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. = We distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify = as slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made.= RAW operates at the forwarding time scale on one DetNet flow over one Trac= k. * RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It will consider exi= sting tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM to observe the Tr= ack, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packe= ts. * RAW decisions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Altern= atively, they may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the current st= ate of the next hop and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is= installed in all intermediate nodes to recognize the flow and determine th= e forwarding policy to be applied. Next steps: * Revise the proposed charter * Send the charter to RTG, request formation a WG * Publish a problem statement draft All the best Pascal --_000_VI1PR07MB52136C47D964A7CBB0B3DCA9F2BB0VI1PR07MB5213eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pascal,

 

Thank you very much for the detailed response!<= /o:p>

I think it is good that our views have been put on t= he table; I hope it helps moving on.

However, I’m skipping one-by-one response as I= am not sure how much additional benefit it would bring to the group at thi= s stage.

 

In any case, we may agree or disagree on sub-items; = we agree on the main one: nest step is problem statement draft. So, I’= ;m looking forward to see the draft.

 

Thank you!

 

Best regards,

Janos

 

 

From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@= cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 4:59 PM
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; raw@ietf.org
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)' <lberger@labn.net>; Randal= Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: RAW notes

 

Hello Janos

 

Many thanks for the long email, demonstrates grea= t care and that’s really appreciated.

Please see below

 

 

All the best,

 

Pascal

 

From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Sent: lundi 29 juillet 2019 18:00
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; raw@ietf.org
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.ne= t)' <lberger@labn.net>; R= andal Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.c= om>
Subject: RE: RAW notes

 

Hi Pascal,

 

Thank you for the notes!

 

Frankly speaking, I understand that work needs to be= done as we cannot yet claim having all the details of Layer 3 deterministi= c wireless networking addressed; however, the details of the work to be don= e are not clear for me at all. Based on the discussions so far, it is even less clear whether or not a new WG i= s needed. Actually, I think it would be better to conduct the work to addre= ss missing pieces in the relevant existing Working Groups.

 

I agree that a problem statement draft would be a gr= eat next step. It would be even better if gap analysis could be included.

 

Ø    We are on it

 

Having the draft, it could be submitted to and discu= ssed at the relevant WGs, so we could see what they say to the problem and = the gaps, what they could do. In addition to DetNet, MANET, CCAMP, which we= re brought up at the session, further relevant WGs are listed on page 4 in https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-paw-03-detnet= -overview-00.pdf.

 

My view on DetNet includes that DetNet is the WG of = the IETF that is overall responsible for the architecture to provide Determ= inistic Networking on Layer 3 and specify corresponding details as necessar= y keeping in mind to leverage existing work as much as possible.

 

“RAW extends DetNet” reads to me that De= tNet extensions necessary for wireless should be done in DetNet. For instan= ce, if additional parameters would be needed for a DetNet flow supported by= wireless segments, then that could be contributed to the DetNet flow information model draft. Actually, I’d be glad to= see it contributed to DetNet what is missing and needed for wireless, and = address those needs in DetNet.

 

Ø    Well, 6man is responsible for IPv6, but the = many “IPv6 over foo” are handled elsewhere, e.g., 6lo, and we&#= 8217;ve been successful at forming WGs like that one that specialize on a c= ertain aspect.

Ø    I think we agree that a WG should not attemp= t to boil the ocean. Seems that the mainstream DetNet has been pretty busy = so far with mostly Wired / SP concerns with MPLS and pseudowire, and the gr= oup is far from being finished on that. Things evolved positively for wireless, but initially PREOD did not = have a O, the model was replicate at ingress and eliminate at egress, great= on wires but largely inadequate for wireless. Still today, there is no con= cern about optimizing the usage of the DetNet path for energy or spectrum, and simple techniques like ARQ = and overhearing do not seem to exist at all.

Ø    If the argument for not forming RAW is that = DetNet is handling the topic in house, then DetNet should add RAW’s i= tems in its charter. I’m not against it at all, I helped start DetNet= with that in mind, and so far was disappointed. But say it does, then should DetNet meet 3-4 times per IETF? This is not o= ur model, we prefer more specialized / smaller groups.

Ø    I think the most important aspect we achieve= with a specialized WG is to attract a more specific crowd that may not sho= w up at the IETF otherwise and can really talk to one another on their part= icular domain. Merging all work items dilutes the value of the WG for each participants and drives them aw= ay.  

Ø    IOW People who do not care about the special= ized topic do not need to show up, like DetNet people with only an SP inter= est will not visit RAW and may attend another group scheduled at the same t= ime. I like that way of the IETF work when we have the right people in the right room, with smaller rooms, = though agreeably collisions that sometimes hurt.

Ø   In the case of wireless I tried since incept= ion of the WG to get Wireless topics in. You know and I know that wireless = was always a thing at the edge. DetNet does not look at the problems that I= am now facing for our next deployments and I need a place to work on them, else we’ll ship proprietary stuf= f and no one wants that.

 =

As you captured in the notes, DLEP was brought up as= potentially very useful. Furthermore, CCAMP was brought up multiple times = as CCAMP has addressed various technologies that may have a lot of similari= ties, e.g., microwave recently.

 

Ø     

Ø    Another analog case I’m well aware of = is 6TiSCH. 6TiSCH did a lot of work on putting solutions together and pushi= ng the needed RFC work in the relevant WGs. It did quite little on new stan= dard specs, mostly the glue that had no home either at IETF or IEEE. I can list more RFCs from ROLL and 6lo that h= elp accomplish the 6TiSCH architecture than from 6TiSCH itself. But we need= ed 6TiSCH to maintain the overall picture of what was going on.<= /p>

Ø    I expect RAW to generate work for the WGs yo= u indicate, and ask for DetNet reviews for some specs just like the IPv6-oe= vr-Foo ask for review from 6man occasionally.

 

 

I agree that radio layer details should remain abstr= act from Layer 3 perspective.

 

Ø    To a point. Some needs come from the radio &= nbsp;layers and people who do not work on radios are not motivated to solve= radio-specific issues. Models that do not understand scheduled radios cann= ot program the forms of diversity that enable DetNet services. OTOH, the abstraction that we want for RAW should = be abstract enough to represent OFDMA as well as TSCH, both capable of inje= cting diversity in time and frequency.

 

 

 

Actually, my layered view is:

 

.

.

.

----------------------

DetNet

-----------------------

optionally: TSN

-----------------------

Radio Technology

-----------------------

 

 

I do not see the need for a new WG in this layered v= iew.

 

Ø    There’s more than one DetNet functiona= lity, TSN is probably not everything we’ll ever need in particular wi= th radios, and there are many radio technologies. We’ll keep forming = groups in all layers. Think IEEE 802.11be, aren’t they needed?

 

 

It is good that we discussed RAW details at the side= meeting and did not spend time on the two information item I thought to sh= are. I can share it now. It is just background information, but still may b= e somewhat relevant.

 

There are efforts happening at Layer 2 for determini= stic wireless. For instance:

 

3GPP SA2 is working on 5G System support for integra= tion with IEEE 802.1 TSN networks. The architectural extensions to support = integration of IEEE 802..1 TSN networks are documented in 3GPP TS 23.501. F= or lack of better further reference, let me point to the one I have at hand; the liaison exchange on the subjec= t:

https://1.ieee802.org/july-2019-plenary-meeting-i= n-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-agenda/#Monday_TSN

 

IEEE P802.11be (TGbe) and IEEE 802.1 TSN TG had a jo= int session to see where we are with WLAN – TSN integration and what = could be done:

https://1.ieee802.org/july-= 2019-plenary-meeting-in-vienna-austria-tsn-tg-agenda/#Tuesday_80211_TGbe_82= 11_8021_TSN

 (An analogy to my view on DetNet responsibilit= ies mentioned above: It is the IEEE 802.1 WG who is responsible for the ove= rall IEEE 802 LAN/MAN architecture.)

 

The reason I added TSN as an option to the layer vie= w is that in case of a wireless – TSN integrated subnet, DetNet may l= everage such a subnet.

 

Ø    Suer. EHT (.11be) enables .11 extensions to = support TSN-like feature. Note that it cannot be the plain application of T= SN as is, e.g., the concept of preemption is revisited.

Ø    RAW actually enables DetNet extensions to op= timize resources at forwarding time over a IP-multihop network. All good, a= nd you never see one-WG-does-it-all at any layer.

 

 

I’m looking forward to see the problem stateme= nt and gap analysis to see what is missing for Layer 3 deterministic wirele= ss networking.

 

Ø    Sure, and then again, the group that builds = the solution is not necessarily the group that builds the individual tools.= As soon as you need a collection of tools or tools extensions, its good to= have a WG that centralizes the requests and monitors the progress overall.

 

Many thanks!

 

Pascal

 

 

Ps:

I’m sorry for sending this mail from vacation;= which may imply delayed response on my part. Nonetheless, I thought it may= be better to share these thoughts earlier than later.

 

 

 

 

From: Raw <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 3:07 PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Cc: 'Lou Berger (lberger@labn.ne= t)' <lberger@labn.net>; R= andal Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.c= om>
Subject: [Raw] RAW notes

 

Dear all

 

Many thanks for all those who attended the side meet= ing last Thursday morning in Ste Catherine., and those who joined the ad-ho= c webex. Sorry for the issues starting it, my mistake, not Webex. Also, spe= cial thanks to Rand, Lou and Ronald for coming and for their useful inputs.

 

Below are my RAW notes ; please come back to the lis= t for anything I missed or that I might have misunderstood.

 

Summary:

 

  • RAW extends DetNet to focus on issues that are mostly radio-specific = and relate to less consistent transmissions, energy constraints and shared = spectrum efficiency. As a technique to optimize forwarding, RAW naturally belongs to RTG Area.
    • =
  • The group needs to write a problem statement that separates the routi= ng time scale and the forwarding time scale, and focuses on forwarding time= operations on a given routing construct.
  • RAW should s= tay abstract to the radio layer (keep a layered approach). How the PHY is p= rogrammed, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed, are unknown at th= e IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction. E.g., programming TSCH slots is out of scope = – it may be an item to either recharter 6TiSCH or form a new WG in IN= T Area.
  • The RAW charter should present the work as gen= eric (IP layer), the 4 technologies being not limitative but examples again= st which we assert our generic solution
  • There may be o= verlaps with MANET (e.g., use of DLEP), and MANET is well-observed by radio= vendors. On the other hand, as an approach towards deterministic networkin= g, RAW is neither mobile not ad-hoc, pretty much the very opposite.

 

 

In more details:

 

  • A prerequisite to the RAW work is that an end-to-end routing function= computes a complex path (we can use the 6TISCH definition of a Track) with= a high degree of redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding, and possibly radio-specific abst= racted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing, frequency diversity, time slott= ing, and possibly others). How the  routing operation computes the Tra= ck is out of scope for RAW. The scope of the RAW operation is one Track, and the goal of the RAW operation is to= optimize the use of the Track at the forwarding timescale to maintain the = expected service while optimizing the usage of constrained resources such a= s energy and spectrum.
  • Another prerequisite is that a= n IP link can be established over the radio with some guarantees in terms o= f service reliability, e.g., it can be relied upon to transmit a packet wit= hin a bounded latency and provides a guaranteed BER/PDR outside rare but exist= ing transient outage windows that can last from split seconds to minutes. T= he radio layer can be programmed with abstract parameters, and can return a= n abstract view of the state of the Link to help forwarding decision (think MANET’s DLEP). In the la= yered approach, how the radio manages its PHY layer is out of control and o= ut of scope. Whether it is single hop or meshed is also unknown and out of = scope.
  • The end-to-end routing can be centralized and c= an reside outside the network. Reaching to the routing computation can be s= low in regards to the speed of events that affect the forwarding operation at the radio layer. Due to the cost and latency to perform a rou= te computation, routing is not expected to be sensitive/reactive to transie= nt changes. The abstraction of a link at the routing level is expected to u= se statistical operational metrics that aggregate the behavior of a link over long periods of time, and repre= sent its availability as a shade of gray as opposed to either up or down. W= e distinguish the time scale at which routes are computed that we qualify a= s slow from the forwarding time scale where per-packet decisions are made. RAW operates at the forwarding = time scale on one DetNet flow over one Track.
  • RAW observes the whole Track in quasi real time. It w= ill consider existing tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and inband-OAM t= o observe the Track, and BIER-TE and SR to control the use of the Track on individual packets.
  • RAW decisions= may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band. Alternatively, they may b= e made at intermediate hops and depend on the current state of the next hop= and local policies. In either case, a per-flow state is installed in all intermediate nodes to= recognize the flow and determine the forwarding policy to be applied.=

 

 

Next steps:

 

  • Revise the proposed charter
  • Send the charter to = RTG, request formation a WG
  • Publish a problem statemen= t draft

 

All the best

 

Pascal

 

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a="41011352" X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,515,1559512800"; d="p7s'?scan'208,217";a="41011352" Received: from 122-10.dynamic.rz.unibw-muenchen.de ([137.193.122.10]) by cold1srv.rz.unibw-muenchen.de with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Sep 2019 08:47:07 +0200 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "raw@ietf.org" Cc: Lou Berger , Janos Farkas References: <156864878242.28094.7324180225992662008.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Dr. Corinna Schmitt" Message-ID: <89e11e2f-c728-9bbd-dfb8-c594ea047504@unibw.de> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:47:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms010100000307090007000004" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:47:21 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010100000307090007000004 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8B373A698A82D63F5BB33A3C" Content-Language: de-DE This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8B373A698A82D63F5BB33A3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pascal, that's great news. I will check and see how I can contribute. Regards, Corinna Am 16.09.19 um 17:52 schrieb Pascal Thubert (pthubert): > Dear all > > In response to the informal meeting in Montreal and the feedback by > Lou and Janos, I posted a 00 to progress on the problem statement > discussion. > I'm looking for anything from comments, contents and co authors. > Please let me know! > > All the best > > Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Sent: lundi 16 septembre 2019 17:46 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement= > > > Hi, > > The IETF datatracker draft submission service has received your draft > draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement-00, and requires a confirmation > step in order to be able to complete the posting of the draft. > Please follow this link to the page where you can confirm the posting: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/106546/confirm/f398ee8131bb2= 74d89fa9d8fb2b70ee1/ > > > Best regards, > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The IETF Secretariat > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 through the draft submission service > > > --=20 > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw --=20 ****************************************************** Dr. Corinna Schmitt Researcher and Laboratory Supervisor Research Institute CODE Universit=E4t der Bundeswehr M=FCnchen Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39 85577 Neubiberg, Germany Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314 Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de https://www.unibw.de/code https://www.corinna-schmitt.de --------------8B373A698A82D63F5BB33A3C Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pascal,

that's great news. I will check and see how I can contribute.
=
Regards, Corinna

Am 16.09.19 um 17:52 schrieb Pascal Thubert (pthubert):
Dear all

In response to the informal meeting in Montreal and the feedback by Lou and Janos, I posted a 00 to progress on the problem statement discussion.
I'm looking for anything from comments, contents and co authors. Please let me know!

All the best

Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org><= /a>
Sent: lundi 16 septembre 2019 17:46
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
= Subject: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement


Hi,

The IETF datatracker draft submission service has received your draft draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement-00, and requires a confirmation step in order to be able to complete the posting of the draft.
Please follow this link to the page where you can confirm the posting:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/submi= t/status/106546/confirm/f398ee8131bb274d89fa9d8fb2b70ee1/


Best regards,

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The IETF Secretariat
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 through the draft submission service

--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/raw
 

--=20
******************************************************

Dr. Corinna Schmitt
Researcher and Laboratory Supervisor

Research Institute CODE
Universit=E4t der Bundeswehr M=FCnchen

Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39
85577 Neubiberg, Germany

Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314
Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de
htt=
ps://www.unibw.de/code
https://www.corinna-schmitt.de
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 14:42:49 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: "raw@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , Janos Farkas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dafa050592bfe32c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:42:27 -0000 --000000000000dafa050592bfe32c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pascal, Thank you for the update! I like the idea of the draft and I'm willing to help in this one. Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:53 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > Dear all > > In response to the informal meeting in Montreal and the feedback by Lou > and Janos, I posted a 00 to progress on the problem statement discussion. > I'm looking for anything from comments, contents and co authors. Please > let me know! > > All the best > > Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Sent: lundi 16 septembre 2019 17:46 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement > > > Hi, > > The IETF datatracker draft submission service has received your draft > draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement-00, and requires a confirmation step > in order to be able to complete the posting of the draft. > Please follow this link to the page where you can confirm the posting: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/106546/confirm/f398ee8131bb274= d89fa9d8fb2b70ee1/ > > > Best regards, > > The IETF Secretariat > through the draft submission service > > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > --000000000000dafa050592bfe32c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pascal,

Thank you for the update!
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-si= ze:small;color:#0b5394">
I like the idea = of the draft and I'm willing to help in this one.
=


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86= =D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88






=
On Mon, Se= p 16, 2019 at 4:53 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
Dear all

In response to the informal meeting in Montreal and the feedback by Lou and= Janos, I posted a 00 to progress on the problem statement discussion.
I'm looking for anything from comments, contents and co authors. Please= let me know!

All the best

Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
Sent: lundi 16 septembre 2019 17:46
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
Subject: Confirm submission of I-D draft-pthubert-raw-problem-statement


Hi,

The IETF datatracker draft submission service has received your draft draft= -pthubert-raw-problem-statement-00, and requires a confirmation step in ord= er to be able to complete the posting of the draft.
Please follow this link to the page where you can confirm the posting:

https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/106546/confirm/f398ee8131bb274d89fa9d8fb2= b70ee1/


Best regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF Secretariat
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 through the draft submission service


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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:10:07 +0000 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "raw@ietf.org" CC: "detnet-chairs@ietf.org" , "'Grossman, Ethan A. (eagros@dolby.com)'" , "Dr. Corinna Schmitt" Thread-Topic: RAW updated charter Thread-Index: AdVuMujF/HmNokwNTx+VmqISIapSgg== Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:09:39 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:09:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pthubert@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:44f3:1300:151a:fc55:1e6d:b77c] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 11f0e862-0731-405a-1ee2-08d73c4a4a87 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(5600167)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:MN2PR11MB4032; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4032: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 2 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 01644DCF4A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(39860400002)(396003)(376002)(346002)(136003)(189003)(199004)(102836004)(2501003)(14454004)(86362001)(6436002)(6506007)(54906003)(7696005)(55016002)(99286004)(790700001)(6116002)(52536014)(14444005)(606006)(256004)(316002)(6916009)(7736002)(5660300002)(2906002)(71190400001)(66446008)(8936002)(81166006)(2351001)(81156014)(71200400001)(486006)(478600001)(6666004)(8676002)(33656002)(476003)(7116003)(3480700005)(74316002)(966005)(64756008)(66946007)(66556008)(66476007)(76116006)(1730700003)(186003)(25786009)(54896002)(9686003)(5640700003)(6306002)(46003)(4326008)(236005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MN2PR11MB4032; H:MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 3K2dmM1kxx1DOqfKwLlEV2w7PrGEmsidWh+TjNc5GE24vCgfq+uQSYb3DhXskzSMGvrpbgcjCMWpaxYTK9RvAjvvAVEdnI4NYsyveNF2VSrsi6/2i+rjg61i94gqpYOJcZCx8jZ7bPg+Xjyciwa4eQIX4+QWLmiKik1Zt0qeq/6ioELvqu5aY4/UCJBP1M+2r5L6nK1A+EVGtlHnb18BUSOhJIfS6QYQokKM3coBiblyJ74TqDCHyVQ5YYrygCtiJHsC/LY/PiPyDenm9A2QHSC2sAtpttNoVDU/NNkPpGXlyY/PzqNzKz9dlH2qiy573O8+SDwHo6efe/Thg/da//jQnO9AJR6mFpSzGZcNyWL4PuKbHSUc5jsJTrNFmhmiiPIyWkF0GYo3IJ0x37z8eRQNeDOozi3bEdjFENJklj8= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB3565D06ACBFD638CD0D1047CD88E0MN2PR11MB3565namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 11f0e862-0731-405a-1ee2-08d73c4a4a87 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Sep 2019 15:10:07.0760 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FZppWlZPuJnjV8GrC8cnzVpYMVsgsYKNqfmySP00HPZnRYDvZ0jQAbWGFkEPC6xc6/qe0MnO1dOyLCDWCp2SWA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4032 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.25, xch-rcd-015.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] RAW updated charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:10:20 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB3565D06ACBFD638CD0D1047CD88E0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all At the meeting at IETF 105, a number of comments were discussed. In particular, Lou's point about whether RAW is a technology group (over f= oo) or a L2 agnostic IP layer thingy. As a way to program TSCH it was an ov= er foo. As a DetNet inheritance it was IP layer. We had to choose. The disc= ussion leaned towards an IP layer thingy, which leaves the TSCH programming= out. On the side, we had to open to other technologies but since it is hard to s= ay that we work on *, we thought that keeping a list of focus technologies = on which we can evaluate our proposals (like LPWAN does for instance) was s= till preferable. Another comment was to clarify the scope. We are now clearly a specializati= on of DetNet. Janos indicated in a long mail that it could mean that the wo= rk should be done within DetNet. Considering the load at DetNet and the cur= rent interests, I tend to prefer a separate group with a focus, see note1 b= elow. On the side, we appear to be the only BoF request for Singapore https://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki . We need all hands on the deck this time! I maintain the charter here: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/RAW = and cc'ed the current very below. Proposed charter --------------------- Bringing determinism in a packet network means eliminating the statistic= al effects of multiplexing (jitter and collision loss) in the transmissions= . Wireless networks operate on a shared medium, and thus transmissions can= not be fully deterministic due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced multipath fading. However, scheduling the transmissions can alleviate those effects by leveraging diversity in the spatial, time and frequency domains, providing a more reliable and available service. Deterministic Networking is an attempt to mostly eliminate packet loss f= or a committed bandwidth with a guaranteed worst-case end-to-end latency, eve= n when co-existing with best-effort traffic in a shared network. This innovation is enabled by recent developments in technologies includ= ing IEEE 802.1 TSN (for Ethernet LANs) and IETF DetNet (for wired IP network= s). It is getting traction in various industries including manufacturing, on= line gaming, professional A/V, cellular radio and others, making possible many cost and performance optimizations. Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) networking services extend DetNet to approach end-to-end deterministic performances in a network with scheduled wireless segments, possibly combined with wired segments, and possibly sharing physical resources with non-deterministic traffic. The wireless and wired media are fundamentally different at the physical level, and while the generic Problem Statement for DetNet applies to the wired as well as the wireless media, the methods to achieve RAW have to differ from those used to support time-sensitive networking over wires, = as a RAW solution will need to address less consistent transmissions, energ= y conservation and shared spectrum efficiency. The development of RAW technologies has been lagging behind deterministi= c efforts for wired systems both at the IEEE and the IETF. But recent effo= rts at the IEEE and 3GPP indicate that wireless is finally catching up at th= e lower layer and that it is now possible for the IETF to extend DetNet fo= r wireless segments that are capable of scheduled wireless transmissions. The intent for RAW is to provide DetNet elements that are specialized fo= r short range radios. From this inheritance, RAW stays agnostic to the rad= io layer underneath though the capability to schedule transmissions is assu= med. How the PHY is programmed to do so, and whether the radio is single-hop or meshed, are unknown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstracti= on. Still, in order to focus on real-worlds issues and assert the feasibilit= y of the proposed capabilities, RAW will focus on selected technologies that = can be scheduled at the lower layers: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC= ), IEEE 802.11ax/be where 802.11be is extreme high throughput (EHT), and L-= band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS) -see Note1-. The establishment of a path is not in-scope for RAW. It may be the produ= ct of a centralized Controller Plane as described for DetNet. As opposed to wi= red networks, the action of installing a path over a set of wireless links may be very slow relative to the speed at which the radio conditions var= y, and it makes sense in the wireless case to provide redundant forwarding solutions along a complex path and to leave it to the RAW Network Plane = to select which of those forwarding solutions are to be used for a given pa= cket based on the current conditions. The path installed by the Controller Plane should provide a high degree = of radio redundancy and diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding,= and possibly radio-specific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing, frequency diversity, time-slotting, and possibly others). The goal of th= e RAW operation is to control redundant transmissions along a path at the forwarding timescale to maintain the expected service level while optimi= zing the usage of constrained resources such as energy and spectrum. The scope of the RAW WG comprises Network plane protocol elements such a= s OAM and in-band control to enable the RAW operation at the Service and at th= e forwarding sub-layers, e.g., controlling whether to use packet replicati= on, Hybrid ARQ and coding, with a constraint to limit the use of redundancy = when it is really needed, e.g., when a spike of loss is observed. RAW observe= s the path in quasi real-time. The WG will consider the applicability of exist= ing tools -see Note2- such as L2-triggers, DLEP -see Note3-, BFD and in-band= -OAM to observe the path, and BIER-TE and Segment Routing to control the use = of the path on individual packets. RAW forwarding decisions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band= . Alternatively, they may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the s= tate of the next hop and local policies, in which case a different in-band signaling may be needed. The group will produce the following deliverables -see Note2-: 1) An informational document describing deterministic wireless use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document 2) An informational document describing the technologies that the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDAC= S) 3) Produce a Standards Track document to enable operations, administration and maintenance (OAM) inside a RAW network, providi= ng packet loss evaluation, self-testing and automated adaptation to enable trade-offs between resilience and energy consumption. Note1: The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated = set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. Participa= nts coming from the wireless industry are not expected to be familiar with t= he IETF nor interested with the current DetNet activities on pseudowires an= d MPLS. It makes sense to provide them with a separate WG were attendees can talk a same language with folks that share a common interest. Note2: A problem statement and one or more applicability statements will be pro= duced that may or may not be suited for archiving, to be decided at a later ti= me. Note3: As a technique to provide a radio-specific DetNet service and forwarding sub-layers, RAW appears to belong to the routing Area. Overlaps with MAN= ET were identified (e.g., the use of DLEP), but as an approach towards Deterministic Networking, RAW is neither mobile nor ad-hoc, but pretty m= uch the very opposite. Comments welcome as usual ! Pascal --_000_MN2PR11MB3565D06ACBFD638CD0D1047CD88E0MN2PR11MB3565namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all

 

At the meeting at IETF 105, a n= umber of comments were discussed.

 

In particular,  Lou’= s point about whether RAW is a technology group (over foo) or a L2 agnostic= IP layer thingy. As a way to program TSCH it was an over foo. As a DetNet = inheritance it was IP layer. We had to choose. The discussion leaned towards an IP layer thingy, which leaves the TSCH pr= ogramming out.

 

On the side, we had to open to = other technologies but since it is hard to say that we work on *, we though= t that keeping a list of focus technologies on which we can evaluate our pr= oposals (like LPWAN does for instance) was still preferable.

 

Another comment was to clarify = the scope. We are now clearly a specialization of DetNet. Janos indicated i= n a long mail that it could mean that the work should be done within DetNet= . Considering the load at DetNet and the current interests, I tend to prefer a separate group with a focus, see= note1 below.

 

On the side, we appear to be th= e only BoF request for Singapore https://trac.tools.ie= tf.org/bof/trac/wiki . We need all hands on the deck this time!

 

I maintain the charter here: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/RAW and cc’ed the curre= nt very below.

 

 

Proposed charter

 

---------------------

 

   Bringing determini= sm in a packet network means eliminating the statistical<= /p>

   effects of multipl= exing (jitter and collision loss) in the transmissions.

   Wireless networks = operate on a shared medium, and thus transmissions cannot=

   be fully determini= stic due to uncontrolled interferences, including the

   self-induced multi= path fading. However, scheduling the transmissions can

   alleviate those ef= fects by leveraging diversity in the spatial, time and

   frequency domains,= providing a more reliable and available service.

 

   Deterministic Netw= orking is an attempt to mostly eliminate packet loss for a

   committed bandwidt= h with a guaranteed worst-case end-to-end latency, even

   when co-existing w= ith best-effort traffic in a shared network.

   This innovation is= enabled by recent developments in technologies including=

   IEEE 802.1 TSN (fo= r Ethernet LANs) and IETF DetNet (for wired IP networks).=

   It is getting trac= tion in various industries including manufacturing, online

   gaming, profession= al A/V, cellular radio and others, making possible

   many cost and perf= ormance optimizations.

 

   Reliable and Avail= able Wireless (RAW) networking services extend DetNet

   to approach end-to= -end deterministic performances in a network with

   scheduled wireless= segments, possibly combined with wired segments, and

   possibly sharing p= hysical resources with non-deterministic traffic.

   The wireless and w= ired media are fundamentally different at the physical

   level, and while t= he generic Problem Statement for DetNet applies to the

   wired as well as t= he wireless media, the methods to achieve RAW have to

   differ from those = used to support time-sensitive networking over wires, as<= /p>

   a RAW solution wil= l need to address less consistent transmissions, energy

   conservation and s= hared spectrum efficiency.

 

   The development of= RAW technologies has been lagging behind deterministic

   efforts for wired = systems both at the IEEE and the IETF. But recent efforts=

   at the IEEE and 3G= PP indicate that wireless is finally catching up at the

   lower layer and th= at it is now possible for the IETF to extend DetNet for

   wireless segments = that are capable of scheduled wireless transmissions.

 

   The intent for RAW= is to provide DetNet elements that are specialized for

   short range radios= . From this inheritance, RAW stays agnostic to the radio<= /p>

   layer underneath t= hough the capability to schedule transmissions is assumed.

   How the PHY is pro= grammed to do so, and whether the radio is single-hop

   or meshed, are unk= nown at the IP layer and not part of the RAW abstraction.=

 

   Still, in order to= focus on real-worlds issues and assert the feasibility of

   the proposed capab= ilities, RAW will focus on selected technologies that can=

   be scheduled at th= e lower layers: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel

   hopping (TSCH), 3G= PP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC),<= /p>

   IEEE 802.11ax/be w= here 802.11be is extreme high throughput (EHT), and L-band

   Digital Aeronautic= al Communications System (LDACS) -see Note1-.

 

   The establishment = of a path is not in-scope for RAW. It may be the product of

   a centralized Cont= roller Plane as described for DetNet. As opposed to wired=

   networks, the acti= on of installing a path over a set of wireless links

   may be very slow r= elative to the speed at which the radio conditions vary,<= /p>

   and it makes sense= in the wireless case to provide redundant forwarding

   solutions along a = complex path and to leave it to the RAW Network Plane to<= /p>

   select which of th= ose forwarding solutions are to be used for a given packet

   based on the curre= nt conditions.

 

   The path installed= by the Controller Plane should provide a high degree of<= /p>

   radio redundancy a= nd diversity (DetNet PREOF, end-to-end network coding, and

   possibly radio-spe= cific abstracted techniques such as ARQ, overhearing,

   frequency diversit= y, time-slotting, and possibly others). The goal of the RAW

   operation is to co= ntrol redundant transmissions along a path at the

   forwarding timesca= le to maintain the expected service level while optimizing

   the usage of const= rained resources such as energy and spectrum.

 

   The scope of the R= AW WG comprises Network plane protocol elements such as OAM

   and in-band contro= l to enable the RAW operation at the Service and at the

   forwarding sub-lay= ers, e.g., controlling whether to use packet replication,=

   Hybrid ARQ and cod= ing, with a constraint to limit the use of redundancy when

   it is really neede= d, e.g., when a spike of loss is observed. RAW observes the

   path in quasi real= -time. The WG will consider the applicability of existing=

   tools -see Note2- = such as L2-triggers, DLEP -see Note3-, BFD and in-band-OAM

   to observe the pat= h, and BIER-TE and Segment Routing to control the use of<= /p>

   the path on indivi= dual packets.

 

   RAW forwarding dec= isions may be made at the ingress and signaled in-band.

   Alternatively, the= y may be made at intermediate hops and depend on the state

   of the next hop an= d local policies, in which case a different in-band

   signaling may be n= eeded.

 

 

   The group will pro= duce the following deliverables -see Note2-:

 

      = 1) An informational document describing deterministic wireless

     &= nbsp;   use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases docume= nt

 

      = 2) An informational document describing the technologies that the

     &= nbsp;   group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and poss= ibly LDACS)

 

      = 3) Produce a Standards Track document to enable operations,

     &= nbsp;   administration and maintenance (OAM) inside a RAW network= , providing

     &= nbsp;   packet loss evaluation, self-testing and automated adapta= tion to

     &= nbsp;   enable trade-offs between resilience and energy consumpti= on.

 

 

   Note1:<= /span>

   The Working Group = will leverage cross-participation with the associated set=

   of stakeholders to= ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real

   demands and that t= he proposed solutions are indeed applicable. Participants=

   coming from the wi= reless industry are not expected to be familiar with the<= /p>

   IETF nor intereste= d with the current DetNet activities on pseudowires and

   MPLS. It makes sen= se to provide them with a separate WG were attendees

   can talk a same la= nguage with folks that share a common interest.

 

   Note2:<= /span>

   A problem statemen= t and one or more applicability statements will be produced

   that may or may no= t be suited for archiving, to be decided at a later time.=

 

   Note3:<= /span>

   As a technique to = provide a radio-specific DetNet service and forwarding

   sub-layers, RAW ap= pears to belong to the routing Area. Overlaps with MANET<= /p>

   were identified (e= .g., the use of DLEP), but as an approach towards

   Deterministic Netw= orking, RAW is neither mobile nor ad-hoc, but pretty much=

   the very op= posite.

 <= /p>

 

 

Comments welcome as usual !

 

Pascal

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