From nobody Mon Jan 13 13:14:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216621200E3 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 13:14:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CCvs89K_xs13 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CC2012002F for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 00DKsZie009306 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:14:52 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2xgv1vpxyd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:14:51 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 00DLEpuT021337 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:14:51 -0500 Received: from zlp27129.vci.att.com (zlp27129.vci.att.com [135.66.87.42]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 00DLEjvu021208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:14:46 -0500 Received: from zlp27129.vci.att.com (zlp27129.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp27129.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 822AA40392A9 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.9.129.148]) by zlp27129.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 6725C4039282 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.49]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.148]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:14:45 -0500 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: "raw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed RAW charter Thread-Index: AdXKVnmbULuYyq59Tr2J+ZIiJo18pw== Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:14:44 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.204.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8AF87FBBEMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-13_07:2020-01-13, 2020-01-13 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-2001130169 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:14:56 -0000 --_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8AF87FBBEMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi RAW, Happy New Year! As promised, here's a proposed charter. Please send comments. I'll be submi= tting it to the IESG for the first step (internal review) by the end of the= week. Note, while the BoF had the most support for doing only use cases and requi= rements, I've included here also a gap analysis and an architecture/framewo= rk document. I think the gap analysis will be the most critical. The archit= ecture/framework is intended not to be the typical comprehensive protocol a= rchitecture, but only architectural aspects of what is needed to enable dep= loyment and usage in a wireless network. Looking forward to your comments- Deborah (your supporting AD) -- Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high reliability and ava= ilability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium. The wireless medium p= resents significant challenges to achieve deterministic properties such as = low packet error rate, bounded consecutive losses, and bounded latency. RAW= extends the DetNet Working Group concepts to provide for high reliability = and availability for an IP network utilizing scheduled wireless segments an= d other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with s= tochastic traffic: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3= GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be,= and L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS). Similar to = DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, addressing t= he Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high reliability an= d availability. While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wired, there has been rec= ent industry interest for wireless applications which were not initially in= cluded in the DetNet use cases. One critical application is Aeronautical Da= ta Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and = data link layer for data communications is reaching maturity and there is s= ignificant interest in developing an IP connectivity solution. In the interests of providing timely solutions for these newly identified i= ndustry applications, RAW's focus will be on identifying use cases and requ= irements for these new applications. RAW will solicit input on deployment p= lans, requirements, and operational practices (including security and priva= cy aspects) for these newer industrial applications. RAW's primary focus is= on identifying areas where the DetNet adaptation to wireless networks requ= ires additional supporting mechanisms. The RAW Working Group will also exam= ine the applicability of other existing IETF work, e.g., DLEP. The RAW Wor= king Group will provide input to the DetNet Working Group, MANET Working Gr= oup, and other IETF Working Groups, and cooperate in reviewing solutions to= RAW's identified deployment problems. RAW is not chartered to work on a so= lution, if solution work is needed in addition to the DetNet solution work = or other existing solution work in the IETF, it will be coordinated on wher= e the work will be done. The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timeframe (12-18 months) Wor= king Group to quickly address these newer industry applications. The initia= l milestones will be comprised of Informational documents. The documents ma= y exist individually or on a git repository. The use case document may cons= ist of one or more documents to allow users/operators the opportunity to pr= ovide comprehensive deployment plans for these new (to IETF) technologies. = The group will closely coordinate with the DetNet and MANET Working Groups.= The work produced by this group may be of interest to other SDOs, 3GPP, IE= EE, and the Aeronautical industry. No formal co-ordination is anticipated w= ith these groups at this time. Milestones Draft for "Use Cases" adopted by WG Draft for "Problem Statement and Requirements" adopted by WG Draft for "Architectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment and usage i= n a wireless network" adopted by WG Draft for "Evaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis" adopted by W= G Draft for "Use Cases" submit for publication Draft for "Problem Statement and Requirements" submit for publication Draft for "Architectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment and usage i= n a wireless network" submit for publication Draft for "Evaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis" submit for p= ublication --_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8AF87FBBEMISOUT7MSGUSRDE_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi RAW,

 

Happy New Year!

 

As promised, here’s a proposed charter. Please= send comments. I’ll be submitting it to the IESG for the first step = (internal review) by the end of the week.

 

Note, while the BoF had the most support for doing o= nly use cases and requirements, I’ve included here also a gap analysi= s and an architecture/framework document. I think the gap analysis will be = the most critical. The architecture/framework is intended not to be the typical comprehensive protocol architecture, but= only architectural aspects of what is needed to enable deployment and usag= e in a wireless network.

 

Looking forward to your comments-

Deborah

(your supporting AD)

 

--

 

Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for h= igh reliability and availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium= . The wireless medium presents significant challenges to achieve determinis= tic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded consecutive losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends t= he DetNet Working Group concepts to provide for high reliability and availa= bility for an IP network utilizing scheduled wireless segments and other me= dia, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with stochastic traffic: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 times= lotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communica= tions (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and L-band Digital Aeronautical Communicat= ions System (LDACS). Similar to DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, addressing = the Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high reliability a= nd availability.

 

While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wi= red, there has been recent industry interest for wireless applications whic= h were not initially included in the DetNet use cases. One critical applica= tion is Aeronautical Data Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and data link layer fo= r data communications is reaching maturity and there is significant interes= t in developing an IP connectivity solution.

 

In the interests of providing timely solutions for t= hese newly identified industry applications, RAW’s focus will be on i= dentifying use cases and requirements for these new applications. RAW will = solicit input on deployment plans, requirements, and operational practices (including security and privacy aspects) for the= se newer industrial applications. RAW’s primary focus is on identifyi= ng areas where the DetNet adaptation to wireless networks requires addition= al supporting mechanisms. The RAW Working Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF work, e.g= ., DLEP.  The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetNet Worki= ng Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and cooperate= in reviewing solutions to RAW’s identified deployment problems. RAW is not chartered to work on a solution, if soluti= on work is needed in addition to the DetNet solution work or other existing= solution work in the IETF, it will be coordinated on where the work will b= e done.

 

The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timef= rame (12-18 months) Working Group to quickly address these newer industry a= pplications. The initial milestones will be comprised of Informational docu= ments. The documents may exist individually or on a git repository. The use case document may consist of one or more d= ocuments to allow users/operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive = deployment plans for these new (to IETF) technologies. The group will close= ly coordinate with the DetNet and MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group may be of interest t= o other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical industry. No formal co-ordin= ation is anticipated with these groups at this time.

Milestones

Draft for “Use Cases” adopted by WG=

Draft for “Problem Statement and Requirements&= #8221; adopted by WG

Draft for “Architectural/Framework aspects to = enable deployment and usage in a wireless network” adopted by WG=

Draft for “Evaluation of Existing IETF Tools a= nd Gap Analysis” adopted by WG

Draft for “Use Cases” submit for publica= tion

Draft for “Problem Statement and Requirements&= #8221; submit for publication

Draft for “Architectural/Framework aspects to = enable deployment and usage in a wireless network” submit for publica= tion

Draft for “Evaluation of Existing IETF Tools a= nd Gap Analysis” submit for publication

 

 

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08:47:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Dean Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:47:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: "raw@ietf.org" Cc: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac1bb7059c1c58e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 16:47:31 -0000 --000000000000ac1bb7059c1c58e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments inline below. Justin Dean On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:14 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A wrote: > Hi RAW, > > > > Happy New Year! > > > > As promised, here=E2=80=99s a proposed charter. Please send comments. I= =E2=80=99ll be > submitting it to the IESG for the first step (internal review) by the end > of the week. > > > > Note, while the BoF had the most support for doing only use cases and > requirements, I=E2=80=99ve included here also a gap analysis and an > architecture/framework document. I think the gap analysis will be the mos= t > critical. The architecture/framework is intended not to be the typical > comprehensive protocol architecture, but only architectural aspects of wh= at > is needed to enable deployment and usage in a wireless network. > > > > Looking forward to your comments- > > Deborah > > (your supporting AD) > > > > -- > > > > Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high reliability and > availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium. > This very first sentence seems off to me as later in the charter it's mentioned that no solutions are going to be directly in scope so will the work actually provide this or just outline the challenges and point towards solutions in DetNet/Manet/other WGs? If no solutions will be in scope then I suggest leading with the next 1-2 sentences mixed with the first as way of introduction to RAW. > The wireless medium presents significant challenges to achieve > deterministic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded consecuti= ve > losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concept= s > to provide for high reliability and availability for an IP network > utilizing scheduled wireless segments and other media, e.g., > frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with stochastic traffic: > IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G > ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and > L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS). > and etc. is needed here unless this his is exhaustive. > Similar to DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, > addressing the Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high > reliability and availability. > > > > While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wired, there has been > recent industry interest for wireless applications which were not initial= ly > included in the DetNet use cases. One critical application is Aeronautica= l > Data Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer > and data link layer for data communications is reaching maturity and ther= e > is significant interest in developing an IP connectivity solution. > (using wireless links?) > > > In the interests of providing timely solutions for these newly identified > industry applications, RAW=E2=80=99s focus will be on identifying use cas= es and > requirements for these new applications. RAW will solicit input on > deployment plans, requirements, and operational practices (including > security and privacy aspects) for these newer industrial applications. > RAW=E2=80=99s primary focus is on identifying areas where the DetNet adap= tation to > wireless networks requires additional supporting mechanisms. The RAW > Working Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF > work, e.g.., DLEP. The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetNe= t > Working Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and > cooperate in reviewing solutions to RAW=E2=80=99s identified deployment p= roblems. > RAW is not chartered to work on a solution, if solution work is needed in > addition to the DetNet solution work or other existing solution work in t= he > IETF, it will be coordinated on where the work will be done. > In terms of presentation of information the critical bit of info that RAW will NOT work on solutions seems a bit buried here and this should be moved towards the top. > > > The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timeframe (12-18 months) > Working Group to quickly address these newer industry applications. The > initial milestones will be comprised of Informational documents. The > documents may exist individually or on a git repository. > Unnecessary suggest cutting previous sentence. > The use case document may consist of one or more documents to allow > users/operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive deployment plans > for these new (to IETF) technologies. The group will closely coordinate > with the DetNet and MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group > may be of interest to other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical > industry. No formal co-ordination is anticipated with these groups at thi= s > time. > "these groups" meaning "these non-IETF groups"? > Milestones > > Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D adopted by WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirements=E2=80=9D adopted by= WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment a= nd usage > in a wireless network=E2=80=9D adopted by WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2= =80=9D adopted by > WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D submit for publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirements=E2=80=9D submit for= publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment a= nd usage > in a wireless network=E2=80=9D submit for publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2= =80=9D submit for > publication > > > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > --000000000000ac1bb7059c1c58e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Comments inline below.
Justin Dean

On Mon, Jan 13, = 2020 at 2:14 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <d= b3546@att.com> wrote:

Hi RAW,

=C2=A0

Happy New Year!

=C2=A0

As promised, here=E2=80=99s a proposed charter. Plea= se send comments. I=E2=80=99ll be submitting it to the IESG for the first s= tep (internal review) by the end of the week.

=C2=A0

Note, while the BoF had the most support for doing o= nly use cases and requirements, I=E2=80=99ve included here also a gap analy= sis and an architecture/framework document. I think the gap analysis will b= e the most critical. The architecture/framework is intended not to be the typical comprehensive protocol architecture, but= only architectural aspects of what is needed to enable deployment and usag= e in a wireless network.

=C2=A0

Looking forward to your comments-

Deborah

(your supporting AD)

=C2=A0

--

=C2=A0

Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for h= igh reliability and availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium= .


This very first sentence = seems off to me as later in the charter it's mentioned that no solution= s are going to be directly in scope so will the work actually provide this = or just outline the challenges and point towards solutions in DetNet/Manet/= other WGs?=C2=A0 If no solutions will be in scope then I suggest leading wi= th the next 1-2 sentences mixed with the first as way of introduction to RA= W.

The wireless medium presents significant ch= allenges to achieve deterministic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded consecutive losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends t= he DetNet Working Group concepts to provide for high reliability and availa= bility for an IP network utilizing scheduled wireless segments and other me= dia, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with stochastic traffic: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 times= lotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communica= tions (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and L-band Digital Aeronautical Communicat= ions System (LDACS).

and etc. is needed h= ere unless this his is exhaustive.=C2=A0

Simila= r to DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, addressing = the Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high reliability a= nd availability.

=C2=A0

While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wi= red, there has been recent industry interest for wireless applications whic= h were not initially included in the DetNet use cases. One critical applica= tion is Aeronautical Data Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and data link layer fo= r data communications is reaching maturity and there is significant interes= t in developing an IP connectivity solution.

(using wireless links?)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In the interests of providing timely solutions for t= hese newly identified industry applications, RAW=E2=80=99s focus will be on= identifying use cases and requirements for these new applications. RAW wil= l solicit input on deployment plans, requirements, and operational practices (including security and privacy aspects) for the= se newer industrial applications. RAW=E2=80=99s primary focus is on identif= ying areas where the DetNet adaptation to wireless networks requires additi= onal supporting mechanisms. The RAW Working Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF work, e.g= .., DLEP.=C2=A0 The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetNet Work= ing Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and cooperat= e in reviewing solutions to RAW=E2=80=99s identified deployment problems. RAW is not chartered to work on a solution, if soluti= on work is needed in addition to the DetNet solution work or other existing= solution work in the IETF, it will be coordinated on where the work will b= e done.

In terms of presentation of inform= ation the critical bit of info that RAW will NOT work on solutions seems a = bit buried here and this should be moved towards the top.

=C2=A0

The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timef= rame (12-18 months) Working Group to quickly address these newer industry a= pplications. The initial milestones will be comprised of Informational docu= ments. The documents may exist individually or on a git repository.

Unnecessary sugg= est cutting previous sentence.
=C2=A0

The use case document may consist of one or more documents to allow users/= operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive deployment plans for the= se new (to IETF) technologies. The group will closely coordinate with the D= etNet and MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group may be of interest t= o other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical industry. No formal co-ordin= ation is anticipated with these groups at this time.

"these groups" meaning "these non-IETF groups&quo= t;?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Milestones

Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D adopted by WG<= u>

Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirement= s=E2=80=9D adopted by WG

Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects t= o enable deployment and usage in a wireless network=E2=80=9D adopted by WG<= u>

Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools= and Gap Analysis=E2=80=9D adopted by WG

Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D submit for pub= lication

Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirement= s=E2=80=9D submit for publication

Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects t= o enable deployment and usage in a wireless network=E2=80=9D submit for pub= lication

Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools= and Gap Analysis=E2=80=9D submit for publication

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
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AdXKVnmbULuYyq59Tr2J+ZIiJo18pwAo8uqAAADSjQA= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:10:47 +0000 Message-ID: <015f01d5cafd$9043d980$b0cb8c80$@dell.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [163.244.62.187] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_015f01d5cafd9043d980b0cb8c80dellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-14_04:2020-01-14, 2020-01-14 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 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XP5xcznA0IJQKDvOVOliKwYoEYaeN6p5hm5VlF89tfva0VzDwqW6msCrlRlvQWfmCGOl hq62eVCfXiPWwqG2Vt7kb7yePspmuLpQkabOPQ89nqgNpi2k9fHbn8HLdDJXjhSTgMsx 9rl0IYnG1H++BZmSYdZl9AXbzj8vTAjSxonz97Cok55vkvHi0PgmHWAnPTZ8a6wfmvP2 H6EQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWAcRd4f3bV3nt3VU97aUs7MMgbMkW+bd5F78btq/YM9qGlHKu mrBWaQ7J/NxleTPUH9i7IIJCW7be0TlDgajxcB8NFA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwfoYIGNQICcDR8iW4gairvAW4MgIxtWm576/tbX4JhAPhXYq2eXGdFeaUimbx+73o83n0TFTOABMERY859OW8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:231d:: with SMTP id u29mr3381701ote.185.1579022747238; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <015f01d5cafd$9043d980$b0cb8c80$@dell.com> In-Reply-To: <015f01d5cafd$9043d980$b0cb8c80$@dell.com> From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 14:25:36 -0300 Message-ID: To: David.Lake@dell.com Cc: bebemaster@gmail.com, raw@ietf.org, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f118fa059c1ce1da" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:25:53 -0000 --000000000000f118fa059c1ce1da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, For the time being, just a small comment: I would like to define the charter about what it is going to be made instead of what it is not (Solutions). I think it is nice to see the right type of product we are looking for (are we looking for Best Practices? Informational documents only? Define a framework and/or an abstraction layer keeping relevant statistics about the efficiency? are we looking for a model?) Regards, Diego Dujovne Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 =C3=A0 14:11, a =C3=A9crit : >
In-line
> > > > *From:* Raw *On Behalf Of *Justin Dean > *Sent:* 14 January 2020 16:47 > *To:* raw@ietf.org > *Cc:* BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A > *Subject:* Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > Comments inline below. > Justin Dean > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:14 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A > wrote: > > Hi RAW, > > > > Happy New Year! > > > > As promised, here=E2=80=99s a proposed charter. Please send comments. I= =E2=80=99ll be > submitting it to the IESG for the first step (internal review) by the end > of the week. > > > > Note, while the BoF had the most support for doing only use cases and > requirements, I=E2=80=99ve included here also a gap analysis and an > architecture/framework document. I think the gap analysis will be the mos= t > critical. The architecture/framework is intended not to be the typical > comprehensive protocol architecture, but only architectural aspects of wh= at > is needed to enable deployment and usage in a wireless network. > > > > Looking forward to your comments- > > Deborah > > (your supporting AD) > > > > -- > > > > Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high reliability and > availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium.. > > > > This very first sentence seems off to me as later in the charter it's > mentioned that no solutions are going to be directly in scope so will the > work actually provide this or just outline the challenges and point towar= ds > solutions in DetNet/Manet/other WGs? If no solutions will be in scope th= en > I suggest leading with the next 1-2 sentences mixed with the first as way > of introduction to RAW. > > The wireless medium presents significant challenges to achieve > deterministic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded consecuti= ve > losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concept= s > to provide for high reliability and availability for an IP network > utilizing scheduled wireless segments and other media, e.g., > frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with stochastic traffic: > IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G > ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and > L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS). > > and etc. is needed here unless this his is exhaustive. > > > >
LDACS does not use IP. A number of other systems where we need to > create Reliable and Available Wireless paths do not use IP. This limits > the applicability of the technology. Is it the PATH we wish to make > Reliable and Available or the Protocol?
> > Similar to DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, > addressing the Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high > reliability and availability. > > > > While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wired, there has been > recent industry interest for wireless applications which were not initial= ly > included in the DetNet use cases. One critical application is Aeronautica= l > Data Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer > and data link layer for data communications is reaching maturity and ther= e > is significant interest in developing an IP connectivity solution. > > (using wireless links?) > > > >
=E2=80=9Csignificant interest=E2=80=9D reads purely of conjecture to= me. If what we > are trying to do is to make the link Reliable and Available, does the > higher-level protocol actually matter?
> > > > In the interests of providing timely solutions for these newly identified > industry applications, RAW=E2=80=99s focus will be on identifying use cas= es and > requirements for these new applications. RAW will solicit input on > deployment plans, requirements, and operational practices (including > security and privacy aspects) for these newer industrial applications. > RAW=E2=80=99s primary focus is on identifying areas where the DetNet adap= tation to > wireless networks requires additional supporting mechanisms. The RAW > Working Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF > work, e.g..., DLEP. The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetN= et > Working Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and > cooperate in reviewing solutions to RAW=E2=80=99s identified deployment p= roblems. > RAW is not chartered to work on a solution, if solution work is needed in > addition to the DetNet solution work or other existing solution work in t= he > IETF, it will be coordinated on where the work will be done. > > In terms of presentation of information the critical bit of info that RAW > will NOT work on solutions seems a bit buried here and this should be mov= ed > towards the top. > > > > The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timeframe (12-18 months) > Working Group to quickly address these newer industry applications. The > initial milestones will be comprised of Informational documents. The > documents may exist individually or on a git repository. > > Unnecessary suggest cutting previous sentence. > > > > The use case document may consist of one or more documents to allow > users/operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive deployment plans > for these new (to IETF) technologies. The group will closely coordinate > with the DetNet and MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group > may be of interest to other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical > industry. No formal co-ordination is anticipated with these groups at thi= s > time. > > "these groups" meaning "these non-IETF groups"? > > > >
The general concern I have is in terms of abstracting the Layer 1 > aspects from the delivery SLA. The analogy I will draw where it works > VERY well is VoLTE where the contract in terms of an IP QoS is explicitly > tied to the air interface QCI and =E2=80=9Creliability=E2=80=9D is built = by moving the > voice call from a packet-switched to a circuit-switched connection if the > air-interface breaks-down. This means that the solution is anything BUT > abstracted in terms of layers! > > > > We do need to be aware that significant, non-predictable behaviour can > occur on RF connections =E2=80=93 for example, the massive tropospheric = =E2=80=9Clift=E2=80=9D that > occurred across much of Western Europe at the end of December which cause= d > OTA TV and Radio to be severely impacted for a number of days > https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/freeview-tv-signal-d= own-people-17486405 > > > >
> > Milestones > > Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D adopted by WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirements=E2=80=9D adopted by= WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment a= nd usage > in a wireless network=E2=80=9D adopted by WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2= =80=9D adopted by > WG > > Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2=80=9D submit for publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Statement and Requirements=E2=80=9D submit for= publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectural/Framework aspects to enable deployment a= nd usage > in a wireless network=E2=80=9D submit for publication > > Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2= =80=9D submit for > publication > > > > > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Profesor Asociado Escuela de Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --000000000000f118fa059c1ce1da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For the time being, just a s= mall comment:
I would like to define the charter about what it is= going=C2=A0to be
made instead of what it is not (Solutions). I t= hink it is nice to
see the right type of product we are looking f= or (are we looking
for Best Practices? Informational documents=C2= =A0only? Define a=C2=A0
framework and/or an abstraction layer kee= ping relevant statistics
about the efficiency? are we looking for= a model?)
Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Diego Dujovne
=

= Le=C2=A0mar. 14 janv. 2020 =C3=A0=C2=A014:11, <David.Lake@dell.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

<DL> In-line </DL>

=C2=A0

From: Raw <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Justin Dean
Sent: 14 January 2020 16:47
To: raw@ietf.org
Cc: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter

=C2=A0

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Comments inline below.
Justin Dean

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:14 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A = <db3546@att.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi RAW,

=C2=A0

Happy New Year!

=C2=A0

As promised, here=E2=80=99s a p= roposed charter. Please send comments. I=E2=80=99ll be submitting it to the= IESG for the first step (internal review) by the end of the week.

=C2=A0

Note, while the BoF had the mos= t support for doing only use cases and requirements, I=E2=80=99ve included = here also a gap analysis and an architecture/framework document. I think the gap analysis will be the most critical. The architecture/frame= work is intended not to be the typical comprehensive protocol architecture,= but only architectural aspects of what is needed to enable deployment and = usage in a wireless network.

=C2=A0

Looking forward to your comment= s-

Deborah

(your supporting AD)<= /u>

=C2=A0

--

=C2=A0

Reliable and Available Wireless= (RAW) provides for high reliability and availability for IP connectivity o= ver a wireless medium..

=C2=A0

This very first sentence seems off to me as later in= the charter it's mentioned that no solutions are going to be directly = in scope so will the work actually provide this or just outline the challen= ges and point towards solutions in DetNet/Manet/other WGs?=C2=A0 If no solutions will be in scope then I suggest leading with th= e next 1-2 sentences mixed with the first as way of introduction to RAW.=

The wireless medium presents si= gnificant challenges to achieve deterministic properties such as low packet= error rate, bounded consecutive losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts to provide for high= reliability and availability for an IP network utilizing scheduled wireles= s segments and other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media res= ources with stochastic traffic: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-relia= ble low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and L-band Digita= l Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS).

and etc. is needed here unless this his is exhaustiv= e.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<DL> LDACS does not use IP.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A numb= er of other systems where we need to create Reliable and Available Wireless= paths do not use IP.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This limits the applicability of the tech= nology.=C2=A0 Is it the PATH we wish to make Reliable and Available or the Protocol? </DL>

Similar to DetNet, RAW will sta= y abstract to the radio layers underneath, addressing the Layer 3 aspects i= n support of applications requiring high reliability and availability.

=C2=A0

While DetNet solutions apply to= both wireless and wired, there has been recent industry interest for wirel= ess applications which were not initially included in the DetNet use cases. One critical application is Aeronautical Data Commun= ications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and data link= layer for data communications is reaching maturity and there is significan= t interest in developing an IP connectivity solution.

(using wireless links?)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<DL> =E2=80=9Csignificant interest=E2=80=9D re= ads purely of conjecture to me.=C2=A0 If what we are trying to do is to mak= e the link Reliable and Available, does the higher-level protocol actually = matter? </DL>

=C2=A0

In the interests of providing t= imely solutions for these newly identified industry applications, RAW=E2=80= =99s focus will be on identifying use cases and requirements for these new applications. RAW will solicit input on deployment plans, re= quirements, and operational practices (including security and privacy aspec= ts) for these newer industrial applications. RAW=E2=80=99s primary focus is= on identifying areas where the DetNet adaptation to wireless networks requires additional supporting mechanisms. The RAW Wo= rking Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF work= , e.g..., DLEP.=C2=A0 The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetNe= t Working Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and cooperate in reviewing solutions to RAW= =E2=80=99s identified deployment problems. RAW is not chartered to work on = a solution, if solution work is needed in addition to the DetNet solution w= ork or other existing solution work in the IETF, it will be coordinated on where the work will be done.=

In terms of presentation of information the critical= bit of info that RAW will NOT work on solutions seems a bit buried here an= d this should be moved towards the top.

=C2=A0

The RAW Working Group is planne= d to be a short timeframe (12-18 months) Working Group to quickly address t= hese newer industry applications. The initial milestones will be comprised of Informational documents. The documents may exist indi= vidually or on a git repository.

Unnecessary suggest cutting previous sentence.

=C2=A0

The use case document may consi= st of one or more documents to allow users/operators the opportunity to pro= vide comprehensive deployment plans for these new (to IETF) technologies. The group will closely coordinate with the DetNet and = MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group may be of interest to= other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical industry. No formal co-ordina= tion is anticipated with these groups at this time.

"these groups" meaning "these non-IET= F groups"?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<DL> The general concern I have is in terms of= abstracting the Layer 1 aspects from the delivery SLA.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The ana= logy I will draw where it works VERY well is VoLTE where the contract in te= rms of an IP QoS is explicitly tied to the air interface QCI and =E2=80=9Creliability=E2=80=9D is built by moving the voice call fr= om a packet-switched to a circuit-switched connection if the air-interface = breaks-down.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This means that the solution is anything BUT abstr= acted in terms of layers!

=C2=A0

We do need to be aware that significant, non-predict= able behaviour can occur on RF connections =E2=80=93 for example, the massi= ve tropospheric =E2=80=9Clift=E2=80=9D that occurred across much of Western= Europe at the end of December which caused OTA TV and Radio to be severely impacted for a number of days https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/freeview-tv-signal-dow= n-people-17486405

=C2=A0

</DL>

Milestones=

Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2= =80=9D adopted by WG

Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Stat= ement and Requirements=E2=80=9D adopted by WG

Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectura= l/Framework aspects to enable deployment and usage in a wireless network=E2= =80=9D adopted by WG

Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation o= f Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2=80=9D adopted by WG=

Draft for =E2=80=9CUse Cases=E2= =80=9D submit for publication

Draft for =E2=80=9CProblem Stat= ement and Requirements=E2=80=9D submit for publication=

Draft for =E2=80=9CArchitectura= l/Framework aspects to enable deployment and usage in a wireless network=E2= =80=9D submit for publication

Draft for =E2=80=9CEvaluation o= f Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis=E2=80=9D submit for publication

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw


--
DIEG= O DUJOVNE
Profesor Asociado
Escuela de Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunic= aciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile=
www.ingenier= ia.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125
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db3546@att.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157910874622.29420.18171612166386322893.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:19:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] raw - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 17:19:06 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Rick Taylor, a Chair of the raw working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Reliable and Available Wireless Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Rick Taylor Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: dtn Technology Overlap: detnet manet lpwan Key Participant Conflict: netmod netconf People who must be present: Erik Nordmark Deborah Brungard Rick Taylor Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jan 15 23:28:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD7F120A07 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 23:28:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kfISHObvP4O for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 23:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailin.dlr.de (mailin.dlr.de [194.94.201.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tm-snts-smtp: 023FC612424FEBA8B390952A46887314EA39B898BCE0A5A57CBE6CD7D746CD5C2000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8819338715d54758b7743a01129a6592dlrde_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 07:28:07 -0000 --_000_8819338715d54758b7743a01129a6592dlrde_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWF5YmUgSSBjYW4gY2xhcmlmeSB0aGlzIGEgbGl0dGxlIGJlbG93Lg0KVGhvbWFzDQoNCg0KPERM PiBMREFDUyBkb2VzIG5vdCB1c2UgSVAuICAgQSBudW1iZXIgb2Ygb3RoZXIgc3lzdGVtcyB3aGVy ZSB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGNyZWF0ZSBSZWxpYWJsZSBhbmQgQXZhaWxhYmxlIFdpcmVsZXNzIHBhdGhz 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AdXKVnmbULuYyq59Tr2J+ZIiJo18pwAo8uqAAADSjQAABpqKgABJoHqAAAI1poA= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 08:31:21 +0000 Message-ID: <009a01d5cc47$5328ba20$f97a2e60$@dell.com> References: <015f01d5cafd$9043d980$b0cb8c80$@dell.com> <8819338715d54758b7743a01129a6592@dlr.de> In-Reply-To: <8819338715d54758b7743a01129a6592@dlr.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [163.244.62.186] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_009a01d5cc475328ba20f97a2e60dellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-16_02:2020-01-16, 2020-01-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=961 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 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<8eff22c969904b8e918fa0a0850c23ec@dlr.de> References: <015f01d5cafd$9043d980$b0cb8c80$@dell.com> <8819338715d54758b7743a01129a6592@dlr.de> <009a01d5cc47$5328ba20$f97a2e60$@dell.com> In-Reply-To: <009a01d5cc47$5328ba20$f97a2e60$@dell.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tm-snts-smtp: 38537ED5ECCCD272C931903FF86D4CD94EFDB2507534272D4B20E19AD939F4712000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8eff22c969904b8e918fa0a0850c23ecdlrde_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Proposed RAW charter X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 08:55:06 -0000 --_000_8eff22c969904b8e918fa0a0850c23ecdlrde_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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03:44:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <157934785187.31641.10972388357265038044.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 03:44:11 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Barry Leiba's No Record on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:44:12 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Record When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Before I record a specific position, I’d like to understand more here: 1. As it’s written, except for the stated connections to DETNET and MANET this sounds more like an INT area working group than one in RTG. Can it be clearer as to why it’s about routing? 2. Given how tightly connected it is to DETNET, why does it make sense to separate it out in its own working group? Won’t it simply be the same people, just dividing their time between the two? How does the separation help get the collective work between the two groups done? From nobody Sat Jan 18 08:45:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC3E12002F; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 08:45:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2dlSa-Lrsof; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 08:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C2512003E; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 08:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 00IGjBlT036738; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:45:11 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2xkxv55vyd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:45:11 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 00IGivTH000897; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:44:57 -0500 Received: from zlp27128.vci.att.com (zlp27128.vci.att.com [135.66.87.50]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 00IGipYQ000771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:44:51 -0500 Received: from zlp27128.vci.att.com (zlp27128.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp27128.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 6B19F4014CA2; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:44:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.9.129.147]) by zlp27128.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 535244009E7F; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:44:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.116]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.147]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:44:50 -0500 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: Barry Leiba , The IESG CC: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" , "raw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Barry Leiba's No Record on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVzfSfmFehpknGoES54/Ow+kfqsqfwkuag Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:44:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157934785187.31641.10972388357265038044.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157934785187.31641.10972388357265038044.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.254.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-18_05:2020-01-16, 2020-01-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-2001180136 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Barry Leiba's No Record on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:45:18 -0000 SGkgQmFycnksDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyENCkFuc3dlcnMgYmVsb3ctDQpE ZWJvcmFoDQoNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGllc2cgPGllc2ct 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bXBsZXRpbmcgdGhlaXIgTDEtTDIgd29yaywgYW5kIHRoZWlyIGludGVyZXN0IGluIElQIGNvbm5l Y3Rpdml0eSwgaXQgaXMgY3JpdGljYWwgdG8gaW5pdGlhdGUgd29yayBhdCBJRVRGIGlmIHdlIGFy ZSB0byBoYXZlIHRpbWVseSBzdGFuZGFyZCBzb2x1dGlvbnM6DQpodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2Vy LmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRpbmcvMTA2L21hdGVyaWFscy9zbGlkZXMtMTA2LXJhdy11bnByZXNlbnRl ZC1jb250ZW50LWxkYWNzLTAwDQoNCg0K From nobody Sat Jan 18 09:22:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5C612003E; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IS_PJXAZe_k6; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-f51.google.com (mail-io1-f51.google.com [209.85.166.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9523C120024; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-f51.google.com with SMTP id d15so29450420iog.3; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oO3H7kRAnQWi3/AVGNlrSP5c9W0fpJ7QcZIfZ06xbk0=; b=IpRc+xpT4M5vG8dU+LdfWskPjUrW+zNNufEWON48zAOBqvhdQ5iRVKPHSeLiVkPYDD Dayxj1pza0IaNKopFWBYFuBM8hsUm+WF6jK+Grc9ghBRrjdvGLdxmjxgbFr61KEw3waE Tqi9RwinMjlClXk2vhuCCAupG6K7U+4TIghQIglxOxs1SM6tchadyhSoL2r7ZPQPYEPK LX/+5kWbpraq8OKgLV50Zxa0l2P+Px0AasDWNQJBZFDeybI+arg2mL+TzcRC8QAb0MHn QJcGG6+ptHV7MvYGT5oDx40ZBNGGw+MVHrGmywVqbHfOvWZexYxInIgVqFkY+54PUEon KFjg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVX94cUuqrmSAnUWdDZceySUbnj9idpCIgyLL9sASfpsT7rqsqh t2RMt6p9/7K7jLXnNOkk2mcL/RQq7kYClfp20QQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx0yvtjvx3+hRsNKlwEKNfaD0w1/etfF1gqSYEr7c6HslBG6lPFqNqhMueh+AEhgt2gaDDPVzFlpvH4grSaBtw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8f41:: with SMTP id r62mr35171523iod.140.1579368142624; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:22:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157934785187.31641.10972388357265038044.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 12:22:11 -0500 Message-ID: To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" Cc: The IESG , "raw-chairs@ietf.org" , "raw@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Barry Leiba's No Record on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:22:25 -0000 Thanks for the quick response, Deborah. > So I was very careful - I didn't want to hint at the solution in the charter at this time - it may end up > being in INT or Routing or both. Considering the charter is about identifying what needs to be > done - do you feel it is necessary to identify/scope to one area vs. another at this time in the > charter life? No... I was looking for more differentiation of the work, and no more than that. But if you feel that the vagueness is useful for getting the right discussions going, and given that it is -- as is quite clear in the charter -- just for discussion and Informational exposition now, I'm fine with it as it is. I'm off to record a "No Objection" now. Barry From nobody Mon Jan 20 15:41:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42191120045; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 15:41:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <157956367420.1648.7664332970081213564.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 15:41:14 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 23:41:14 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am usually wary of chartering WGs to produce supporting documents such as use cases and requirements. On one hand I believe these documents are important to the eventual solutions work. On the other hand, it concerns me that the solutions might be delayed while the support documents work through publication, or that the support documentation might loose their relevance during that time. In this case, addressing the applications of a new-to-the-IETF community, and producing documents that may be of external interest is important. There are a couple of related details that I would like to see specifically addressed in the charter (+ milestones): - The timeframe is short (12-18 months), but the list of work items is significant. The milestones need to be properly prioritized and closely managed. - Specifically related to Use Cases, the text says that "the Use Case document may consist of one or more documents". One of the milestones should point to a date when no more use cases will be accepted in the WG -- this is to avoid late submissions from not letting the WG continue/finish the work in the short timeframe. - The text about the "documents may exist individually or on a git repository" hints at the possibility of not publishing all the documents as RFCs, but it is not explicit about it. I would like the Charter to explicitly talk about alternate publication mechanisms, and, if possible, define upfront which documents should be published as RFCs and which shouldn't. Guiding the WG to make those decisions early, and empowering the Chairs (in the Charter) to enforce them is important. Other comments: - Is there a reference to the "Aeronautical standards work"? Is it important to coordinate with the body producing them? - The third paragraph mentions "these new applications" at least 3 times...but there is no clear indication of what those are, except for the "One critical application is Aeronautical Data Communications." If the work wants to be scoped and focused, then the charter should be a little more specific about the applications. - [nit] "The RAW Working Group will also examine..." Start a new paragraph there... From nobody Tue Jan 21 00:59:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5419D120025; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:58:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <157959713427.28791.10514235248366172823.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:58:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_charter-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-raw-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 08:58:54 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am trusting the routing AD for the relevance of this work. Also interested in the "L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS)" mention in the charter. Unsure whether it is worth mentioning the ATN mailing list. See: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/atn -éric From nobody Tue Jan 21 02:08:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F2F1200E6; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 02:07:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <157960127225.28909.11468675451961273225.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 02:07:52 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Abstain_on_charter-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-raw-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:07:52 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm uncertain what to ballot here, so I'll abstain. It's unclear to me which if any documents the working group will produce. I agree with Alvaro that is would be good to be more explicit about this to support the chairs and future ADs. I also still don't quite understand why this is not part of the DetNet group. It seems that the DetNet people have to go to this group anyway. So why not adding it the DetNet charter and the chairs could just e.g. request two sessions at the meeting and use this to split the discussion. Such an approach would enable a much smoother and hopefully faster convergence to solution work if any is needed. From nobody Tue Jan 21 10:33:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE231209B9; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HxceYxIWx7yK; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8C2512088C; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i1so3522493oie.8; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Q4aJAoAlXzNfs0f6QaBSjRDIHhHtrSjEUuKV6jBpaNU=; b=I5cg6bdR9j6rxwoF5g0PNBEMosiL8TyFa1dqaRkzy9F8RvWZPClirOcuvCR6DDgsjC xvfkF4SV6KiDPGm08b/DqGe0Kj7yWNq1nGGsesXgyXPA4E6b3a2t9tyuQdvWpA+p1CWH EML0zD5xKxDjkd1hN9OUJPFIdMV54KTNehbG006oDZL6n+hFunvXKtPS9Bl5kM06sE03 Tu3x7H/syEMAK8pz+RB4s6hsQr/M5TRO1055ekCC4jVqSc8w1xjA0/hxtfQadlwaorZC unpnEssLFY8LJfwPl/9fjZS/23ICmzPe/t/oi4tJ3Ql7JuaRuA+sMvH+3W3JkHWHNFBK BLeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q4aJAoAlXzNfs0f6QaBSjRDIHhHtrSjEUuKV6jBpaNU=; b=KPOzUd8RQC8TU52RnKJYp8gIu5RBVt1n9Fy59aR27EmpIwGwl0uHcwXE+LLt/zN3S2 BPalvWqb1voGnRRjqL5XeyQuemib9/emN3gXSCgeeheWrq6tDow+NXZ1pbNNgo1+li7N 8ZQnMtEJkY4M+O7gh/9aAbQlB9SwQL7fOLEa81i5keOZV488QdidEANVvy9b6fqyLlat x82nEM5FEvlNEpBhiH9NdRKEkRmpR4Vfn2SoZ3wo+qopDEWwdi3ZKwGGnJBreHdu0YFb yG1UWYdKnNGS4NVHtv4iKYUnnDfJFkOgKaNEJjf3MxrwG0tbcBf20U8EH6xtr1ncczcR wrkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXqLnhNlExxCzu26gNsZLe6IVxJjnQO3XNzL4aluvEVbdZCg9Ue Rcou2/kJocwbGVeFBliE5Km3p7WsVKhueFw7pvE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzuljlrxgkLQhww54Ngq6B2gToYrHyIOz3j5leGP9DaNY50e/T5GvsVKIJrPS7MmFxvBE4z/fKIKg6bm52Nev4= X-Received: by 2002:aca:fc47:: with SMTP id a68mr3932764oii.52.1579631575271; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157960127225.28909.11468675451961273225.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157960127225.28909.11468675451961273225.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 20:32:16 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= , manet Cc: The IESG , raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb8eae059caaa2eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Abstain_on_charter-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-raw-00-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 18:33:01 -0000 --000000000000eb8eae059caaa2eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMHO, this WG will need to join both MANET WG and DetNet WG. To make this WG discuss and work well it will need both WGs chairs join together as the RAW WG chair. I think this RAW WG will must have the same MANET and DetNEt Chairs. The big difference between DetNet and RAW is that DetNet is only focused on networking that is predictable in IP connections, but this RAW will focus on both usecases of predictable and unpredictable connections at layers 2 and 3, for wireless technologies/standards/IEEE. In addition, IMO, this RAW WG participants/discussions are mostly for MANET WG/charter not DetNET WG/charter, because MANET focuses on the wireless networking for both unpredictable and predictable connections. Best Wishes, AB On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:07 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-raw-00-00: Abstain > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm uncertain what to ballot here, so I'll abstain. > > It's unclear to me which if any documents the working group will produce.= I > agree with Alvaro that is would be good to be more explicit about this to > support the chairs and future ADs. > > I also still don't quite understand why this is not part of the DetNet > group. > It seems that the DetNet people have to go to this group anyway. So why n= ot > adding it the DetNet charter and the chairs could just e.g. request two > sessions at the meeting and use this to split the discussion. Such an > approach > would enable a much smoother and hopefully faster convergence to solution > work > if any is needed. > > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > --000000000000eb8eae059caaa2eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IMHO, this WG will need to join both MANET WG and Det= Net WG. To make this WG discuss and work well it will need both WGs chairs = join together as the RAW WG chair. I think this RAW WG will must have the s= ame MANET and DetNEt Chairs. The big difference between DetNet and RAW is t= hat DetNet is only focused on networking that is predictable in IP connecti= ons, but this RAW will focus on both usecases of predictable and unpredicta= ble connections at layers 2 and 3, for wireless technologies/standards/IEEE= .

In addition, IMO, this RAW WG participants/discu= ssions are=C2=A0mostly=C2=A0for MANET WG/charter not DetNET WG/charter, bec= ause MANET focuses on the wireless networking for both=C2=A0unpredictable a= nd predictable connections.

Best Wishes,

AB

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:07 PM Mirja K=C3=BCh= lewind via Datatracker <noreply@ietf= .org> wrote:
Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has ente= red the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-raw-00-00: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/=



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm uncertain what to ballot here, so I'll abstain.

It's unclear to me which if any documents the working group will produc= e. I
agree with Alvaro that is would be good to be more explicit about this to support the chairs and future ADs.

I also still don't quite understand why this is not part of the DetNet = group.
It seems that the DetNet people have to go to this group anyway. So why not=
adding it the DetNet charter and the chairs could just e.g. request two
sessions at the meeting and use this to split the discussion. Such an appro= ach
would enable a much smoother and hopefully faster convergence to solution w= ork
if any is needed.


--
Raw mailing list
Raw@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
--000000000000eb8eae059caaa2eb-- From nobody Tue Jan 21 13:01:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73A1120041; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:01:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <157964046490.28967.7790241737460572796.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 13:01:04 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 21:01:05 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it's possible to go to external review with this charter now, but I think it would be much better to get clear answers to the questions Alvaro raises in his ballot before putting it out to external review. I had many of the same questions when reading this. In particular, one rationale for publishing informational documents as RFCs is to ease coordination with other SDOs. In this case it's unclear whether the documents are intended to be published as RFCs, and the charter says there will be no coordination with SDOs, including wherever the aeronautical standards are being developed. This seems like a bit of a contradiction to me. If RFCs are needed for alignment and coordination, then we should coordinate. And if not, then I wonder whether drafts will be sufficient. From nobody Wed Jan 22 11:51:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DD112089B; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <157972266048.12320.3799679905954952023.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 11:51:00 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 19:51:01 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- +1 on Alvaro Retana’s feedback. To the question of how will the WG know they covered all of the use cases, are the “newer industrial applications” referenced in “The RAW Working Group is planned to … quickly address these newer industry applications”: (a) “Aeronautical Data Communications” or (b) “IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS)”? (Not my area) Is it possible to be clearer on the purpose of the draft artifacts? If the need for new “solution work” is unclear, then why is there certainty that more supporting documents are needed? From nobody Wed Jan 22 15:09:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610E91200FD; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 15:09:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Vigoureux via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Vigoureux Message-ID: <157973458936.12246.10080201087084621117.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 15:09:49 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:09:49 -0000 Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, it is not clear to me what these sentences mean: The documents may exist individually or on a git repository. Does it mean that no draft could ever be published and that contributions could only be made and stored on github? The Use Case document may consist of one or more documents to allow users/operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive deployment plans for these new (to IETF) technologies. What are the technologies being referred to here? From nobody Thu Jan 23 02:24:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92513120178; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:24:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <157977506754.22708.16966215934432538803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:24:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 10:24:27 -0000 Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This is not a particular hard Block. However, I think the sum of the comments from the IESG recommends substantial rewording on the charter before it going out for external review. I at least would like to see the reworked charter before giving it a go-ahead to sending it out for external review. I personally are especially interested if it can be clarified what the WG actually is expected to produce. I also have to ask the question, is Routing the right area? A lot of the text appears to talk about issues that would be more at home in INT? This appears to take a more architectural gap analysis. I understand that there is overlap into both areas. However, if the target is to produce a gap analysis to figure out where there are short comings in the IETF suit of protocols, are there going to be any effort into identifying issues using this network for transport protocols? The LDACS text appears to implicitly indicate that the WG should consider how to provide an IP solution for them. If such work is to be done I think that needs its own home. Can the below part be changed to not imply such work: " The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and data link layer for data communications is reaching maturity and there is significant interest in developing an IP connectivity solution." From nobody Thu Jan 23 04:30:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B3D12004C; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:30:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UqOdYe19QXXj; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailin.dlr.de (mailin.dlr.de [194.94.201.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF7C1200A4; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:30:13 -0800 (PST) IronPort-SDR: 9ke5YtEuWtEXfpQYPLcIxeI4uW3x0RFHgsO0F/ZhzH0qFI08FyF5wY3ceGRdExqNXDnEc5CwCx z4eBRUtatwrA== IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AP9GrwRUHC4dcYLztwkfMypOWbWPV8LGtZVwlr6?= =?us-ascii?q?E/grcLSJyIuqrYZRSHu6dThVPEFb/W9+hDw7KP9fy5BSpau93b7zhCKMUKC0?= =?us-ascii?q?Zez51O3kQJO42sMQXDNvnkbig3ToxpdWRO2DWFC3VTA9v0fFbIo3e/vnY4Ex?= =?us-ascii?q?T7MhdpdKyuQtaBx8u42Pqv9JLNfg5GmCSyYa9oLBWxsA7dqtQajZFtJ6osxR?= =?us-ascii?q?bFuGVEd/pZyW92J1+YghLw6tut8JJ5/Clcpvws+9RcXanmeqgzUKBVAikhP2?= =?us-ascii?q?0p/sPgqAPNTRGI5nsSU2UWlgRHDg3Y5xzkXZn/rzX3uPNl1CaVIcP5Q7Y0WS?= =?us-ascii?q?+/76hwUx/nlD0HNz8i/27JjMF7kb9Wrwigpxx7xI7UfZ2VOf9jda7TYd8WWW?= =?us-ascii?q?xMVdtXWidcAI2zcpEPAvIBM+hGsof9u1UAoxiwBQauBePg1jBGiXDt0K0myu?= =?us-ascii?q?QhEx3K0BA8E94TtnnfsdX7NL0VUeCw1KTFyivNb/NR2Tf48ofIaQotr/CWXb?= =?us-ascii?q?1qb8XR1FEvFwfeg1qNrYzlJSmZ2fkTvGWC6edrSOGhi3Y/pg1svjSj3Nogh4?= =?us-ascii?q?rGi44P11zJ+yZ0zJwrKdGmUEJ3fNypHIVKuy2EKod6WN4uTmNptSog17EKoZ?= =?us-ascii?q?C7czYJxZg7whPSbueIf5SV7R39UeucIzZ1i2hldb+6mRm97Uqtxff5W8Wq3l?= =?us-ascii?q?ZGsjZKn9/RvX4XzRPT8NKISv5l80ek3jaAyh7c5/lfIUAxiarbM5khwqMslp?= =?us-ascii?q?YLsUTMACv2mELugaGYcEsq9Oem5eTnbLvhpZGSMJV6hh/gPqohm8OyH/40Mg?= =?us-ascii?q?kIX2iH4+Szzqfv8lD9QLVQlPE5j7fWvIjbJcQduKG5HxdY3ps/5xqlEjur09?= =?us-ascii?q?sVkWMaIF9Lex+LlZblN0/WLPD9F/i/glCskDlxx/DBO73sGovDLnjEkLfkZ7?= =?us-ascii?q?l98FRQxgspzd9F+Z1UF6kBIPboV0DssNzYFAU1PBGqzOr/EtVyypseWX6TAq?= =?us-ascii?q?+eKK7StEWH5u0pI+mRf48Zojj8JOY+5/7yk3A5g1sdfbSv3ZQKc323AO5mI0?= =?us-ascii?q?SFbnr3mdcBFmEKshAiQ+ztjV2ISSRTaGqqX6Ig+jE7D5qrDYbdSYC2j7yMxy?= =?us-ascii?q?a7EYNKZmBIEFyMFm3od4qcUfcWdC2SOtNhkiADVbW5UY8uzx+vuBbmxLpnNO?= =?us-ascii?q?XU+zcYtYn42dh0+eLTiR8y+SZzD8SH3GGHV3t0kX8QRz8qwKB/plRwyk2Z3q?= =?us-ascii?q?l2mPFYFMJc5+9HUgsgMp7c1eN6WJjOXVeVe96GTku9BMqrGi08VNYsxdMmbl?= =?us-ascii?q?x8EM65iRaF1C2vVftdw72GH5Mc86/A0T72PckrmFjc06x022UmRc5GLiuJnK?= =?us-ascii?q?dy6hDXL4LNiQOVmvD5JuwnwCfR+TLbniK1t0ZCXVsoXA=3D=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2FrBQBokSle/xaKuAplHAEBAQEBBwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BEQEEBAEBgXuBeIEKgU6VO4IDmTUJAQEBAQEBAQEBBwEvAQGEQAKCQzgTAgM?= =?us-ascii?q?BDAEBBQEBAQEBBQQBAQKGLII7IoNXAQQBcQgFCwIBTjIlAgQBDQ0MB4VnrlC?= =?us-ascii?q?FSoR0gTiOMYRiijcElzOIb48yB4FIlyAjjmmMDo5emwgCBAIEBQIVgWmBe3G?= =?us-ascii?q?DPE8YDZZHjWCBEAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,353,1574118000"; d="scan'208";a="31490670" From: To: , CC: , Thread-Topic: [Raw] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHV0ddRn9jDt/Y4GkOtMCXWWcND4Kf4KHWA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:30:10 +0000 Message-ID: <031ac1fa345c4a37b1f0d8dff008e2af@dlr.de> References: <157977506754.22708.16966215934432538803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157977506754.22708.16966215934432538803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tm-snts-smtp: 18569CFE573E337B770005D3B2DD85AD120EDF70BD46AA85627249F90343EA5B2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:30:18 -0000 Maybe I can clarify. > The LDACS text appears to implicitly indicate that the WG should consider= how > to provide an IP solution for them. If such work is to be done I think th= at > needs its own home. Can the below part be changed to not imply such work: An IP solution for LDACS is already on its way (outside of IETF in the R&D = of our aviation industry partners). It can therefore IMO not be in the focu= s of RAW. The particular use case of RAW the aviation community would be interested i= n is as follows: Future aircraft shall have multiple wireless links. LDACS = is one of them. AeroMACS and Iris would be the others. These datalinks (all= IPv6 based) should be used to provide more reliable and available data lin= k service for applications related to the safety and regularity of the flig= ht than each of them could provide on its own. The exact mechanism and use cases for this are yet to be determined, althou= gh it is discussed that it would likely rely on choosing the right link at = the right time. All of this is currently under discussion outside of IETF. = However, we think that IETF involvement (through RAW?) would be a good ide= a. Thomas From nobody Thu Jan 23 04:58:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2749712023E; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:58:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.401 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXg4b5-UdRVZ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F5A1120255; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048589.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. 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zlp27127.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id B754040002C7; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:58:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.116]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:58:03 -0500 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: Magnus Westerlund CC: The IESG , "raw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Raw] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-raw-00-00: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHV0ddOrGXR00cnPUaYD0i0m0wBV6f4NdD8 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:58:02 +0000 Message-ID: <21D56037-1947-4B02-8DCD-319388B7291F@att.com> References: <157977506754.22708.16966215934432538803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157977506754.22708.16966215934432538803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure 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bmlmaWNhbnQgaW50ZXJlc3QgaW4gZGV2ZWxvcGluZyBhbiBJUCBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgc29sdXRp b24uIg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLS0gDQo+IFJhdyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gUmF3QGll dGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9vZnBvaW50LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1odHRw cy0zQV9fd3d3LmlldGYub3JnX21haWxtYW5fbGlzdGluZm9fcmF3JmQ9RHdJQ0FnJmM9TEZZWi1v OV9IVU1lTVRTUWljdmpJZyZyPTZVaEdwVzlsd2k5ZE03allseFhEOHcmbT1VV2k5Zm90SlJNeXBH d0hFalBUTUFXOWtlQkFBTy1EbzA1U2ZKbE15Zm84JnM9Z1N4NVMxT1E1QU4zaUZVb0VpaFliOFh2 S0FwYlp2a0hSRTJhcWFyQzEtbyZlPSANCg== From nobody Wed Jan 29 06:39:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B601200F5; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 06:39:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org, raw@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <158030875028.2753.1330365826143979692.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 06:39:10 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Magnus Westerlund's No Objection on charter-ietf-raw-00-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:39:10 -0000 Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-raw-00-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are still some acronyms that could benefit from expansion, such as DLEP. From nobody Wed Jan 29 12:26:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietf.org Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7B012003E; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:26:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: raw@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <158032957083.2765.3527725262573618661.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:26:10 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] WG Review: Reliable and Available Wireless (raw) X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:26:11 -0000 A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Routing Area. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2020-02-05. Reliable and Available Wireless (raw) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: TBD Assigned Area Director: Deborah Brungard Routing Area Directors: Alvaro Retana Deborah Brungard Martin Vigoureux Mailing list: Address: raw@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/raw/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/raw/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-raw/ Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) provides for high reliability and availability for IP connectivity over a wireless medium. The wireless medium presents significant challenges to achieve deterministic properties such as low packet error rate, bounded consecutive losses, and bounded latency. RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts to provide for high reliability and availability for an IP network utilizing scheduled wireless segments and other media, e.g., frequency/time-sharing physical media resources with stochastic traffic: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11ax/be, and L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS), etc. Similar to DetNet, RAW will stay abstract to the radio layers underneath, addressing the Layer 3 aspects in support of applications requiring high reliability and availability. While DetNet solutions apply to both wireless and wired, there has been recent industry interest for wireless applications which were not initially included in the DetNet use cases. One critical application is Aeronautical Data Communications. The Aeronautical standards work on a physical layer and data link layer for data communications is reaching maturity and there is significant interest in IP connectivity applications. In the interests of providing timely solutions for these newly identified industry applications, RAW’s focus will be on identifying use cases and requirements for these new applications. RAW will solicit input on deployment plans, requirements, and operational practices (including security and privacy aspects) for these newer industrial applications. RAW’s primary focus is on identifying areas where the DetNet adaptation to wireless networks and other IETF tools may require additional supporting mechanisms. The RAW Working Group will also examine the applicability of other existing IETF work, e.g., MANET's dynamic link exchange protocol (DLEP). The RAW Working Group will provide input to the DetNet Working Group, MANET Working Group, and other IETF Working Groups, and cooperate in reviewing solutions to RAW’s identified deployment problems. RAW is not chartered to work on a solution. If solution work is needed, it will be coordinated on where the work will be done. If RAW is chosen for the solution work, the Working Group will recharter. The RAW Working Group is planned to be a short timeframe (12-18 months) Working Group to quickly address these newer industry applications. The initial milestones will be published as Informational documents: Use Cases, Requirements, Architecture/Framework Aspects for a Wireless Network, and an Evaluation of Existing IETF Tools and Gap Analysis. Additional documents may be published or exist on a git repository, the publication format will be agreed by the Working Group at the time the document is adopted by the group. The Use Case document may consist of one or more documents to allow users/operators the opportunity to provide comprehensive deployment plans for these new (to IETF) technologies, e.g., the Aeronautical Data Communication applications. The group will closely coordinate with the DetNet and MANET Working Groups. The work produced by this group may be of interest to other SDOs, 3GPP, IEEE, and the Aeronautical industry. Milestones: TBD