From nobody Wed Apr 1 00:20:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E363A0E96 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8GX9z2VF1dA3 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fortiss.org (mail.fortiss.org [178.15.138.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7B483A0E91 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.16.27] (port=40172 helo=ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org) by mail.fortiss.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1jJXfH-0004gq-10; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 09:19:55 +0200 Received: from ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org (192.168.16.27) by ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org (192.168.16.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:19:54 +0200 Received: from ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org ([fe80::3928:e952:611b:9286]) by ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org ([fe80::3928:e952:611b:9286%12]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.010; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:19:54 +0200 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F1F.5E84407B.006A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 From: Rute Sofia To: Janos Farkas , Rick Taylor , "raw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 Thread-Index: AdYGe3CExDgJzMuTS0OCTeKY+s1olwBKKPhQABRyhFA= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:19:54 +0000 Message-ID: <960c22ac78f548f6b321c5bea471ac3c@fortiss.org> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831E8F@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [94.134.92.252] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="sha-256"; boundary="----82C10D2468E7E99BCC0B29FE84C11F1B" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 07:20:03 -0000 This is an S/MIME signed message ------82C10D2468E7E99BCC0B29FE84C11F1B Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_960c22ac78f548f6b321c5bea471ac3cfortissorg_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_960c22ac78f548f6b321c5bea471ac3cfortissorg_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I also support the adoption of this draft. A major help in the context of R= AW. Best Regards, Rute From: RAW On Behalf Of Janos Farkas Sent: 01 April 2020 00:00 To: Rick Taylor ; raw@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 Hi, I support the adoption of this draft. It is in the RAW charter and there ar= e milestones for it. Regards, Janos From: RAW > On Behalf Of = Rick Taylor Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:12 PM To: raw@ietf.org Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 Hi All, The authors of: draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 have asked for a call for working gr= oup adoption of their draft. This is your opportunity to express your opinion. A decision will be made on/after 13th April. Cheers, Rick and Eve Co-chairs --_000_960c22ac78f548f6b321c5bea471ac3cfortissorg_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello

 

I also support the adoption of this draft. A major help= in the context of RAW.

Best Regards,

Rute

 

From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Janos Farkas
Sent: 01 April 2020 00:00
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; raw@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-case= s-03

 

Hi,

I support the adoption of this = draft. It is in the RAW charter and there are milestones for it.=

Regards,

Janos

 

 

From: RAW <raw-bounces@iet= f.org> On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:12 PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03=

 

Hi All,

 

The authors of: draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-03 have asked for a ca= ll for working group adoption of their draft.

 

This is your opportunity to exp= ress your opinion.

 

A decision will be made on/afte= r 13th April.

 

Cheers,

 

Rick and Eve<= /p>

Co-chairs

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ESMTP id 216DC61F14; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 186F91400E8; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C4C1400EC; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr Received: from zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id MlKdPCBgPvkz; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.94] (unknown [194.254.241.250]) by zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D38A61400E8; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:51 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Fabrice Theoleyre In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:59:51 +0200 Cc: Rick Taylor , "raw@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9A3665D9-A268-4337-9ABB-73B58BE3AFE8@unistra.fr> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: Janos Farkas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 09:00:00 -0000 Dear Janos, all,=20 > I guess I'd start with: > 3) Does the draft meet the criteria outlined in the WG charter (this = is mostly a decision for the chairs, but we welcome feedback!) >=20 > Checking the RAW charter: > "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution. If solution work is = needed, the Working Group will coordinate with the IESG to determine = where the work will be done. If RAW is chosen for the solution work, the = Working Group will recharter." >=20 > The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It includes = conformance language, e.g.,: > " The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the data packets = of the flow to monitor." > " These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D Yes, this is something we have to address.=20 > To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the current = RAW charter. Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created by = implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given = solution. While we point to existing works for each of =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2= =80=9D, we don=E2=80=99t recommend a specific one.=20 Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the = draft is too =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this is = probably something we can address. Let us know the incriminated parts. Bets regards, Fabrice =20 >=20 > Thinking then on: > 1) Is the RAW working group the correct WG for this work? > Also in the RAW charter: > " RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts" > As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet OAM, not RAW = OAM on its own. The draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM. Well, = DetNet OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for it: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/ > Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet OAM could = be extended for wireless in the DetNet WG.=20 >=20 >=20 > So, I do not support the adoption of this draft. >=20 > Regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Rick Taylor > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a = call for working group adoption of their draft. >=20 > The link to the draft is: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ >=20 > This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >=20 > A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Rick and Eve > Co-chairs >=20 > --=20 > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >=20 > --=20 > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Wed Apr 1 02:24:39 2020 Return-Path: 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8bit Dear all, thanks for the feedback last week in the session to our draft. We just performed an update see below. Stay healthy, Corinna, Nils and Thomas A new version of I-D, draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Corinna Schmitt and posted to the IETF repository. Name:           draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs Revision:       02 Title:          L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS) Document date:  2020-04-01 Group:          Individual Submission Pages:          18 URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02.txt Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs/ Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02 Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02 Abstract:    This document provides an overview of the architecture of the L-band    Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS), which provides a    secure, scalable and spectrum efficient terrestrial data link for    civil aviation.  LDACS is a scheduled, reliable multi-application    cellular broadband system with support for IPv6.                                                                                   Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat -- ****************************************************** Dr. Corinna Schmitt Researcher and Lab Manager Research Institute CODE Universität der Bundeswehr München Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39 85577 Neubiberg, Germany Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314 Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de https://www.unibw.de/code https://www.corinna-schmitt.de --------------89F9CB3C97137DB33BB8CDE1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all,

thanks for the feedback last week in the session to our draft.
We just performed an update see below.

Stay healthy,
Corinna, Nils and Thomas




A new version of I-D, draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Corinna Schmitt and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs
Revision:       02
Title:          L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS)
Document date:  2020-04-01
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          18
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-02

Abstract:
   This document provides an overview of the architecture of the L-band
   Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS), which provides a
   secure, scalable and spectrum efficient terrestrial data link for
   civil aviation.  LDACS is a scheduled, reliable multi-application
   cellular broadband system with support for IPv6.

                                                                                 


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



-- 
******************************************************

Dr. Corinna Schmitt
Researcher and Lab Manager

Research Institute CODE
Universität der Bundeswehr München

Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39
85577 Neubiberg, Germany

Phone: +49 (0)89 6004 7314
Email: corinna.schmitt@unibw.de
https://www.unibw.de/code
https://www.corinna-schmitt.de
--------------89F9CB3C97137DB33BB8CDE1-- From nobody Wed Apr 1 09:40:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19A63A12F7 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdac.in Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZ-uF1kB914z for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsender.cdac.in (mailsender.cdac.in [196.1.113.117]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 805CB3A12D6 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ims.pune.cdac.in (ims.pune.cdac.in [10.208.1.15]) by mailsender.cdac.in (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 031GeMtS000940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 1 Apr 2020 22:10:23 +0530 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cdac.in; s=default; t=1585759223; bh=KehsTIW0Q0Q7JBsVKEZtPqoeN2VQDone1h9Bt+7+6rk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date; b=O0TYr5xVOZLjN8Gzt/TUEr0Yt/HWeaugcT7Iv1sf/UX7tt13lHEy6tcD6su8X/4OS tGBR6V0DsNM4T4Xf1aGLdprySJtNExAkSEE1Q9YoFQFmkC28NlbM0TCDh/SWtQn7hX U3r2+pQZ7dyiC6RxwIR7HOCFkC0uWmrmjZ1y6hiw= Received: from mailgw.pune.cdac.in ([10.208.1.4]) by ims.pune.cdac.in (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 031GeHGj014745; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 22:10:17 +0530 X-AuthUser: lijo Received: from DESKTOPT1728SQ (53.33.92.111.asianet.co.in [111.92.33.53] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mailgw.pune.cdac.in (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 031GeFO9009958; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 22:10:17 +0530 From: To: Cc: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 22:10:09 +0530 Message-ID: <01b301d60844$368b8580$a3a29080$@cdac.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B4_01D60872.5044FA00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-in Thread-Index: AdYIQwOkOVVf45D1Q+eLrJMV7NdeVw== X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner-ID: 031GeHGj014745 X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner-MCPCheck-IMS: MCP-Clean, MCP-Checker (score=0, required 1) X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.6, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_50 0.80, BOGUS_THREAD 0.50, HTML_MESSAGE 0.30), not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.539, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_20 -0.74, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner-Information: Please contact npsfhelp@cdac.in/mailadmin@cdac.in for more information X-MailScanner-ID: 031GeMtS000940 X-CDAC-PUNE-MailScanner-From: lijo@cdac.in X-CDAC-MailScanner-Spam-Status: No Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] 5G Cellular-V2X application usecase regardng:- X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 16:40:51 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B4_01D60872.5044FA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I went through the draft-farkas-5g-raw-00.txt, seems to be an interesting read. Congrats to the authors to depict the 5G architecture in a good shape. We are planning to work on 5G Cellular-V2X technology to build an application that requires high reliability and low latency communication. It will be very good if you can provide some inputs on the following. 1. Does the 5G architecture that has been described in the draft include Device to Device communication ? 2. From my understanding of the draft, it appears that the it is geared towards centralized architecture to accomplish the objectives of high reliability and low latency. Can we extend the schemes mentioned in the draft to D2D communication, that seems like requires a distributed solution. Thanks in Advance !! Regards, Lijo Thomas C-DAC For assimilation and dissemination of knowledge, visit cakes.cdac.in ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ C-DAC is on Social-Media too. Kindly follow us at: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CDACINDIA & Twitter: @cdacindia ] This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------=_NextPart_000_01B4_01D60872.5044FA00 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="----------=_1585759222-11504-5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1585759222-11504-5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

=  

I went through the draft-farkas-= 5g-raw-00.txt, seems to be an interesting read. Congrats to the authors= to depict the 5G architecture  in a good shape.

=

 

We are planning to work on 5G Cellular-V2X technology to b= uild an application that requires high reliability and low latency communic= ation. It will be very good if you can provide some inputs on the following= .

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1D2228'>
1. Does the 5G architecture that has been described in the draft in= clude Device to Device communication ?

2. From my understanding of the draft, it appears that the it is= geared towards centralized architecture to accomplish the objectives of hi= gh reliability and low latency.  Can we extend the schemes mentioned i= n the draft to D2D  communication, that seems like requires a distribu= ted solution.

 

 

Thanks in Advance !!<= /p>

 

Regards,

Lijo Thomas

C-DAC

&n= bsp;



For assimilation and dissemination of knowledge, visit cakes.cdac.in

3D"150th

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This e-mail is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
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all copies and the original message. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this em= ail
is strictly prohibited and appropriate legal action will be taken.
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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 97a8460f-e976-40e5-9314-08d7d678a576 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Apr 2020 20:09:55.5226 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aBJa0MY04dehdheOX14kuZgPI76tI5ewQrKEkU7xxDV7cqrrvIDh8bDKhMYrX7o9b0NaOAdiy10hYkO+cde9CYcHYvqC8ONYFuzyf+TdmuM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB4688 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 20:10:01 -0000 Hi Pascal, I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW charte= r. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to collect us= e cases and then collect the requirements out of the use cases. I think thi= s helps understanding the problem we are about to solve. Perhaps requiremen= ts is close to problem statement. I'd be glad to see then what can we do wi= th current IETF technology to meet the requirements / solve the problem and= what are the gaps. This may help seeing clearer what could be useful to in= clude in a framework/architecture. I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but run wi= th some overlaps. Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: For/a= gainst was maybe 80 vs 20." where the work items were: "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless use = cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that the g= roup will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework to a= rchitecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most familiar w= ith DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655 DetNet Architectur= e outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to the problem coming from R= FC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet Problem Statement. Of course, = RFC 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by indivi= dual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a solution at= high level. The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to rema= in in the scope of the charter. As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to my m= ind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that it is go= od, but it should not specify solution details. I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework".=20 I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two opti= ons for the reasons explained above. Best regards, Janos -----Original Message----- From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM To: raw@ietf.org Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architec= ture-00.txt Dear all: The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match the li= st of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW charter. In part= icular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an architecture draft b= ut does not require a problem statement. Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO requirements and= the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I just pushed the firs= t version to hint the group of where we wish to go and solicit early feedba= ck. Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. Comments welcome! Keep safe... Pascal -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos ; Geo= rgios Papadopoulos ; Pascal Thuber= t (pthubert) Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.tx= t A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF re= pository. Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture Revision: 00 Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture Document date: 2020-04-01 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw-arc= hitecture-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-archite= cture/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture= -00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw-ar= chitecture Abstract: Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while minimizing the waste of resources. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --=20 RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Wed Apr 1 13:40:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A693A0855 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWkN7cbLVgZl for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) 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X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 12:29:39 -0000 Hello Janos: I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm= reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless= experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirem= ent that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is con= tained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that ar= e specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly e= xtended.=20 If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless e= xperts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the beginnin= g of a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture= outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and = hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF.=20 All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. Keep safe, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Janos Farkas > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture= - > 00.txt >=20 > Hi Pascal, >=20 > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW char= ter. I > found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to collect use c= ases > and then collect the requirements out of the use cases. I think this help= s > understanding the problem we are about to solve. Perhaps requirements is > close to problem statement. I'd be glad to see then what can we do with > current IETF technology to meet the requirements / solve the problem and > what are the gaps. This may help seeing clearer what could be useful to > include in a framework/architecture. > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but run = with > some overlaps. >=20 >=20 > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: For= /against > was maybe 80 vs 20." > where the work items were: > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless us= e > cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document > 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that the > group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" >=20 >=20 > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework to > architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most familia= r with > DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655 DetNet Architecture = outlines > at a high level the DetNet solution to the problem coming from RFC 8578 > DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet Problem Statement. Of course, RFC > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by individu= al > drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a solution at hi= gh level. >=20 > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." >=20 > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to re= main > in the scope of the charter. >=20 > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to my > mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that it is= good, > but it should not specify solution details. >=20 > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two op= tions > for the reasons explained above. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture-00.txt >=20 > Dear all: >=20 > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match the = list > of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW charter. In > particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an architecture d= raft > but does not require a problem statement. >=20 > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO requirements a= nd > the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I just pushed the fir= st > version to hint the group of where we wish to go and solicit early feedba= ck. > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. >=20 > Comments welcome! >=20 > Keep safe... >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos ; > Georgios Papadopoulos ; Pascal > Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.= txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF > repository. >=20 > Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture > Revision: 00 > Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture > Document date: 2020-04-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-archi= tecture/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architectu= re-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced > multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on > wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a > centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the > controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW > separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is > recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding > decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the > forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the > redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be > used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while > minimizing the waste of resources. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Thu Apr 2 07:06:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A58B3A198E for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 07:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:17:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0351400D4; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:17:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr Received: from zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 2H1Ifx0Z5JMP; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:17:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.88] (unknown [194.254.241.250]) by zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DA3021400EA; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:17:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Fabrice Theoleyre Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DFC20CB-BBC2-43A3-AB23-C40E9D18DA5F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:17:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "raw@ietf.org" , Rick Taylor To: Janos Farkas References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9A3665D9-A268-4337-9ABB-73B58BE3AFE8@unistra.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 14:17:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8DFC20CB-BBC2-43A3-AB23-C40E9D18DA5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Janos,=20 I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and more = importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest.=20 Merging OAM and general requirements in a single document may be an = option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having something very big, and = complicated to digest by everybody.=20 Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we split both documents?=20 What overlapping parts do you envision between both of them?=20 Best regards, Fabrice > Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Dear Fabrice and Pascal, >=20 > Perhaps, I have not elaborated my points too much. >=20 > I of course also see a lot of value in collecting the OAM requirements = for RAW. It is just not obvious to me that this draft is a collection of = RAW OAM requirements. For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" = or alike. >=20 > A requirements document is listed among the RAW milestones. > OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM requirements, could be part = of the RAW requirements document. > I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, maybe updated = text could be good input to RAW requirements document. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >=20 > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM > To: Fabrice Theoleyre >; Janos Farkas > > Cc: raw@ietf.org ; Rick Taylor = > > Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Dear all >>> The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It includes=20 >>> conformance >> language, e.g.,: >>> " The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the data=20 >>> packets of >> the flow to monitor." >>> " These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> Yes, this is something we have to address. >=20 > Well that language can be found in informational as well; if it must = it must, fact of life that can be observed and described in an = informational. Publishing as informational for all I know does not = preclude such language. Note that this is not using BCP 14. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the current=20= >>> RAW >> charter. >>=20 >> Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created by=20 >> implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given=20 >> solution. While we point to existing works for each of = =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, we=20 >> don=E2=80=99t recommend a specific one. >>=20 >> Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the=20= >> draft is too =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this = is probably=20 >> something we can address. >> Let us know the incriminated parts. >>=20 >=20 > God for me then...=20 > I'm happy that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW = angle is described in full. > It is up to the chairs and ADs to transfer or kindly ask for reviews = from DetNet at any stage if that can help.=20 >=20 > Be safe! >=20 > Pascal >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thinking then on: >>> 1) Is the RAW working group the correct WG for this work? >>> Also in the RAW charter: >>> " RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts" >>> As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet OAM, not=20= >>> RAW >> OAM on its own. The draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM.=20 >> Well, DetNet OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for = it: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/ >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/ >>> Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet OAM=20 >>> could >> be extended for wireless in the DetNet WG. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> So, I do not support the adoption of this draft. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Janos >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RAW On Behalf Of Rick Taylor >>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM >>> To: raw@ietf.org >>> Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of=20 >>> draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >>>=20 >>> Hi All, >>>=20 >>> The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a=20= >>> call >> for working group adoption of their draft. >>>=20 >>> The link to the draft is:=20 >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw- >> oam-support/ >>>=20 >>> This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >>>=20 >>> A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Rick and Eve >>> Co-chairs >>>=20 >>> -- >>> RAW mailing list >>> RAW@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >>>=20 >>> -- >>> RAW mailing list >>> RAW@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >>=20 >> -- >> RAW mailing list >> RAW@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = --Apple-Mail=_8DFC20CB-BBC2-43A3-AB23-C40E9D18DA5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = Janos, 

I guess = that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and more importantly on = what makes it so specific is of interest. 

Merging OAM and general requirements in = a single document may be an option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having = something very big, and complicated to digest by = everybody. 

Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we split both = documents? 
What overlapping parts do you = envision between both of them? 

Best regards,
Fabrice



Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas = <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Dear Fabrice and = Pascal,

Perhaps, I = have not elaborated my points too much.

I of course also see a lot of value in collecting the OAM = requirements for RAW. It is just not obvious to me that this draft is a = collection of RAW OAM requirements. For instance, the title is not "OAM = Requirements" or alike.

A requirements document is listed among the RAW = milestones.
OAM = requirements, clearly phrased as OAM requirements, could be part of the = RAW requirements document.
I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, = maybe updated text could be good input to RAW requirements = document.

Best = regards,
Janos

-----Original = Message-----
From: Pascal = Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 = 11:25 AM
To: Fabrice = Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Dear all
The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It = includes 
conformance
language, e.g.,:
" The ping packets must = be labeled in the same way as the data 
packets = of
the flow to monitor."
" These metrics should = be collected:=E2=80=9D

Yes, = this is something we have to address.

Well that language can be found = in informational as well; if it must it must, fact of life that can be = observed and described in an informational. Publishing as informational = for all I know does not preclude such language. Note that this is not = using BCP 14.



To me, the draft seems = to be solution, hence, outside of the current 
RAW
charter.

Actually, = we have tried to explain the challenges created by 
implementing = OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given 
solution. = While we point to existing works for each of =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, = we 
don=E2=80=99t recommend a specific one.

Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our = objective. If the 
draft is too =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some = parts, this is probably 
something we = can address.
Let us know the incriminated parts.


God for me then... 
I'm happy that RAW works on this = draft for now to ensure that the RAW angle is described in = full.
It is up to = the chairs and ADs to transfer or kindly ask for reviews from DetNet at = any stage if that can help. 

Be safe!

Pascal



Thinking then on:
1) Is the RAW working group = the correct WG for this work?
Also in the RAW charter:
" RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts"
As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet = OAM, not 
RAW
OAM on its own. The draft does = not mention or refer to DetNet OAM. 
Well, DetNet = OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for it:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet = OAM 
could
be extended for wireless in = the DetNet WG.


So, I do not support the adoption of this = draft.

Regards,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of 
draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Hi All,

The authors of: = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a 
call
for working group adoption of their draft.

The link = to the draft is: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-
oam-support/

This is your opportunity to = express your opinion.

A decision will be = made on/after 13th April.

Cheers,

Rick and Eve
Co-chairs

--
RAW mailing list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

--
RAW mailing list
RAW@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

--
RAW mailing = list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

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dG1sPg0K --_000_VI1PR07MB4415AEFCC0FE0D19288072C0F2C60VI1PR07MB4415eurp_-- From nobody Thu Apr 2 07:54:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F27B3A1475 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 07:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDKfZ_Sbe9_A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 07:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fortiss.org (mail.fortiss.org [178.15.138.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8A853A1072 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 07:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.16.27] (port=51400 helo=ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org) by mail.fortiss.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1jK1DT-0005dk-09; Thu, 02 Apr 2020 16:53:11 +0200 Received: from ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org (192.168.16.27) by ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org (192.168.16.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:53:10 +0200 Received: from ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org ([fe80::3928:e952:611b:9286]) by ms01.fortiss.fortiss.org ([fe80::3928:e952:611b:9286%12]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.010; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:53:10 +0200 X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F1E.5E85FC24.001C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 From: Rute Sofia To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "Janos Farkas" CC: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" , "raw@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHWCCdbQWLXrSLM5UyP1kApZmWDcahkQDCwgABo7MCAARPGgIAAKxOg Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:53:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [94.134.92.233] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="sha-256"; boundary="----4675E750776B628F0BFEFBA5D6CA63C4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 14:53:37 -0000 This is an S/MIME signed message ------4675E750776B628F0BFEFBA5D6CA63C4 Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hello After reading the draft, and being one of the "wireless" as well as "IP peo= ple" :), IMO: - this is not an architecture, so the term framework is possibly better. - there would be benefits in merging the content of this draft and the OAM = requirements draft. Relevant to the research towards industrial environments (e.g., industrial = IoT) is that determinism needs to be addressed both on the MAC and IP layer= . Ideally working together. The terminology, namely, reliability and availability, are somewhat confusi= ng...perhaps state that reliability is in this draft defined based on two s= pecific indicators, namely, latency (MTBF) and packet loss (MCF). Similarl= y to availability, how is a "path" defined here? E2E path? 1 hop? Best Regards, Rute Sofia -----Original Message----- From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: 02 April 2020 14:29 To: Janos Farkas Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architec= ture-00.txt Hello Janos: I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm= reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless= experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirem= ent that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is con= tained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that ar= e specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly e= xtended.=20 If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless e= xperts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the beginnin= g of a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture= outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and = hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF.=20 All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. Keep safe, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Janos Farkas > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt >=20 > Hi Pascal, >=20 > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW=20 > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to=20 > collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use=20 > cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to=20 > solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad=20 > to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the=20 > requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help=20 > seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architectur= e. > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but=20 > run with some overlaps. >=20 >=20 > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again:=20 > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." > where the work items were: > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless =20 > use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document > 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that=20 > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" >=20 >=20 > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework=20 > to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most=20 > familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655=20 > DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to=20 > the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet=20 > Problem Statement. Of course, RFC > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by=20 > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a sol= ution at high level. >=20 > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." >=20 > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to=20 > remain in the scope of the charter. >=20 > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to=20 > my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that=20 > it is good, but it should not specify solution details. >=20 > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two=20 > options for the reasons explained above. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert=20 > (pthubert) > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20 > architecture-00.txt >=20 > Dear all: >=20 > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match=20 > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW=20 > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an=20 > architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. >=20 > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO=20 > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I=20 > just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go an= d solicit early feedback. > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. >=20 > Comments welcome! >=20 > Keep safe... >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos=20 > ; > Georgios Papadopoulos ;=20 > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the=20 > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture > Revision: 00 > Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture > Document date: 2020-04-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-archi= tecture/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architectu= re-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced > multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on > wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a > centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the > controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW > separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is > recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding > decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the > forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the > redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be > used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while > minimizing the waste of resources. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet= f.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw -- RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw ------4675E750776B628F0BFEFBA5D6CA63C4 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIVeAYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIVaTCCFWUCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkq hkiG9w0BBwGgghK+MIIGuDCCBKCgAwIBAgIPGReV3CJ0GxId21RMXMvcMA0GCSqG SIb3DQEBCwUAMEUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkNIMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxTd2lzc1NpZ24gQUcx 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a8f98461-97a3-4890-916d-08d7d72a5bd5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Apr 2020 17:22:02.4066 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: XPN1r8TP4w4VNkdnpZmIL8gn1FAxksMMBH2pPBaNmEyl/GzX+DOGZRAYvzVHeTlPBvIBeDeZhzQuhzGjI6Z7tg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4597 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 17:22:37 -0000 Hello Rute >=20 > After reading the draft, and being one of the "wireless" as well as "IP p= eople" > :), IMO: >=20 > - this is not an architecture, so the term framework is possibly better. I added .framework to the title as suggested in the 01 that I just posted. = I expect to keep on working to add more text that's actually architecture. > - there would be benefits in merging the content of this draft and the OA= M > requirements draft. We had a certain organization in the RAW docs and the charter came out diff= erently, so we are reshuffling text between docs, this your impression on t= he architecture. The architecture deliverable is new with the charter and w= e are just starting to publish text for it, using text from the problem sta= tement as context since there will not be a problem statement published . >=20 > Relevant to the research towards industrial environments (e.g., industria= l IoT) > is that determinism needs to be addressed both on the MAC and IP layer.. > Ideally working together. Great point.=20 >=20 > The terminology, namely, reliability and availability, are somewhat > confusing...perhaps state that reliability is in this draft defined based= on two > specific indicators, namely, latency (MTBF) and packet loss (MCF). Simil= arly to > availability, how is a "path" defined here? E2E path? 1 hop? A path is a very generic term and usually allows A to reach B, so at least = it is not a hop between A and B. In DetNet, the term covers a complex graph with PRE. At 6TiSCH, the decisio= n was to form a term (Track) to cover the complex graph towards B (almost a= DODAG but not exactly) on which we apply PAREO functions.=20 This doc inherits from 6TISCH for that terminology. MTBF is not latency but the time between packets that fail to achieve their= contract, the contract being for instance in-order delivery within bounded= time, to echo DetNet. Or something else, Reliability is abstract to the SL= A. MCF is not packet loss but losses in a row. If you lose exactly every other= packet you have a PDR of only 50% but the MCF is 1. You need both to expr= ess that you never lose more than X packets in a row and that this event (o= f losing >X packets in a row) is really rare. I put some more text on reliability in -1. Now we need text on architecture= as you point out. Keep safe! Pascal >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: 02 April 2020 14:29 > To: Janos Farkas > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture-00.txt >=20 > Hello Janos: >=20 > I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. >=20 > I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I= 'm > reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireles= s > experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a require= ment > that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is conta= ined > in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that are spe= cific > to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly extended. >=20 > If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless > experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the begin= ning of > a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture > outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and > hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF. >=20 > All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. >=20 > Keep safe, >=20 > Pascal > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Janos Farkas > > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt > > > > Hi Pascal, > > > > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW > > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to > > collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use > > cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to > > solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad > > to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the > > requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help > > seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architect= ure. > > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but > > run with some overlaps. > > > > > > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ > > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: > > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." > > where the work items were: > > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless > > use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document > > 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that > > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS= )" > > > > > > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework > > to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most > > familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655 > > DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to > > the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet > > Problem Statement. Of course, RFC > > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by > > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a s= olution at > high level. > > > > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." > > > > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to > > remain in the scope of the charter. > > > > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to > > my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that > > it is good, but it should not specify solution details. > > > > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". > > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two > > options for the reasons explained above. > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > > (pthubert) > > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM > > To: raw@ietf.org > > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw- > > architecture-00.txt > > > > Dear all: > > > > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match > > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW > > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an > > architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. > > > > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO > > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I > > just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go = and > solicit early feedback. > > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. > > > > Comments welcome! > > > > Keep safe... > > > > Pascal > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 > > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos > > ; > > Georgios Papadopoulos ; > > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture > > Document date: 2020-04-01 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 16 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw= - > > architecture-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architec= ture-00 > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-ra= w- > > architecture > > > > > > Abstract: > > Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced > > multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on > > wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a > > centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the > > controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW > > separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is > > recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding > > decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the > > forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the > > redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be > > used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while > > minimizing the waste of resources. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.i= etf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > > RAW mailing list > > RAW@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Thu Apr 2 13:12:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11ADE3A1588; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 20:12:13 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB4415.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e02a:72a3:7222:f505]) by VI1PR07MB4415.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e02a:72a3:7222:f505%2]) with mapi id 15.20.2878.014; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 20:12:13 +0000 From: Janos Farkas To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "raw@ietf.org" , "raw-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHWCCdbQWLXrSLM5UyP1kApZmWDcahkQDCwgABo7MCAARPGgIAAh1qQ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 20:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [176.63.28.146] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 938032c8-415e-4585-fbca-08d7d7422248 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR07MB6430: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 938032c8-415e-4585-fbca-08d7d7422248 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Apr 2020 20:12:13.8206 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Q81gosLRKCymVkyqGZzzurC7Iqfq+knyu6yWetubeE4RR0VIBT5pu5KU732dc2lufIT3TTBpmEUoZD5DCI8SSm4n/9dX3qHEw2yFf3xo9Dg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB6430 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 20:12:37 -0000 Hi Pascal, Please see few notes in-line as [Janos Farkas]. -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) =20 Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 2:29 PM To: Janos Farkas Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-0= 0.txt Hello Janos: I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm= reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless= experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirem= ent that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is con= tained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that ar= e specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly e= xtended.=20 If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless e= xperts to help us produce it.=20 [Janos Farkas]=20 I fully agree that it is absolutely great to have expertise attracted to IE= TF and involved in our work, and get people with various expertise work to= gether. I agree that the architecture is the beginning of a solution,=20 [Janos Farkas]=20 This is my concern. By developing solution we go beyond the charter. I think we would rather fit in the charter if we develop a framework, not a= n architecture. So, I'd suggest to remove architecture and only keep framew= ork. All the best, Janos which is composed of many components that the architecture outlines. That's= the reason why it must come the best informed party, and hopefully RAW is = the group that has formed for that at the IETF.=20 All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. Keep safe, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Janos Farkas > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt >=20 > Hi Pascal, >=20 > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW=20 > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to=20 > collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use=20 > cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to=20 > solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad=20 > to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the=20 > requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help=20 > seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architectur= e. > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but=20 > run with some overlaps. >=20 >=20 > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again:=20 > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." > where the work items were: > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless =20 > use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document > 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that=20 > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" >=20 >=20 > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework=20 > to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most=20 > familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655=20 > DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to=20 > the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet=20 > Problem Statement. Of course, RFC > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by=20 > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a sol= ution at high level. >=20 > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." >=20 > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to=20 > remain in the scope of the charter. >=20 > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to=20 > my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that=20 > it is good, but it should not specify solution details. >=20 > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two=20 > options for the reasons explained above. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert=20 > (pthubert) > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20 > architecture-00.txt >=20 > Dear all: >=20 > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match=20 > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW=20 > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an=20 > architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. >=20 > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO=20 > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I=20 > just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go an= d solicit early feedback. > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. >=20 > Comments welcome! >=20 > Keep safe... >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos=20 > ; > Georgios Papadopoulos ;=20 > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the=20 > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture > Revision: 00 > Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture > Document date: 2020-04-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-archi= tecture/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architectu= re-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced > multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on > wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a > centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the > controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW > separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is > recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding > decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the > forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the > redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be > used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while > minimizing the waste of resources. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet= f.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Thu Apr 2 13:33:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6D53A18A1 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 810b99e1-8521-4334-d7de-08d7d7451d0c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Apr 2020 20:33:33.5591 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vXOe6cSqLVl7hVSEw8uKn6XUSJ0DVw+yg6kmCaZzYkQKDgPoAve7z1pqyF7Tw7/xEanmsshMAD8EExtSp8L+eqskX1BxYKPeavykDEzgUSs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB4190 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 20:33:39 -0000 Hi Pascal, Reliability and Availability are unfortunately controversial terms as diffe= rent industries, or even sub-groups of industries have defined them indepen= dently of each other, hence, very much unfortunately differently. A lot of = discussion is now happening on it in multiple fora with the convergence of = Operations Technology, Information Technology, and Telecommunications netwo= rking. I would not try to redefine them in RAW. We may consider taking one = of the existing or converged definitions. When it comes to packet loss, I have the same information as you: there is = no tolerance of n consecutive packets in industrial automation for the reas= ons you described. The numbers I heard is no 2 or 3 consecutive packets are= allowed to be lost. This is also captured in the DetNet use cases: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-7.4 In DetNet, we did not try to convert this requirement to X nines, but intro= duced new parameter for it: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-07#sec= tion-5.9.5 As it was also pointed out on the DetNet list, it actually often means zero= packet loss requirement: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/nkoqM-cBlmIhBoyvs4u6nv-q-t0/ So, we need service protection to meet this requirement as described in Det= Net Architecture: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8655.html#name-service-= protection. Stay safe, Janos -----Original Message----- From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 4:04 PM To: Rex Buddenberg ; raw@ietf.org Cc: Fabrice Theoleyre ; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <= cjbc@it.uc3m.es> Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-arch= itecture-00.txt Dear RAWers, The Industrial people I've been discussing with tell me that they want 5 ni= nes of reliability (PDR=3D99.999%) because if the faults are independent, t= hen there are 10 nines that we have 2 faults in a row, and 15 nines that yo= u get three. What they really want is to avoid faults in a row. Because after 4 packet l= osses, the control loop is unstable and the production line is emergency ha= lted. Once a year you get a bad look. Twice and your equipment is on the cu= rb. You see that the nines of reliability actually translate in an unscheduled = loss of availability that is less than 4 loops. Because we cannot repair th= at fast, we need redundancy is a requirement. In the architecture I used the following definition: Reliability: Reliability is a measure of the probability that an item will perform its intended function for a specified interval under stated conditions. For RAW, the service that is expected is delivery within a bounded latency and a failure is when the packet is either lost or delivered too late. RAW expresses reliability in terms of Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) and Maximum Consecutive Failures (MCF). Availability: Availability is a measure of the relative amount of time where a path operates in stated condition, in other words (uptime)/(uptime+downtime). Because a serial wireless path may not be good enough to provide the required availability, and even 2 parallel paths may not be over a longer period of time, the RAW availability implies a path that is a lot more complex than what DetNet typically envisages (a Track). (feedback welcome!) Certainly the ratio of usable time is of interest. If it's scheduled and yo= u can coordinate other maintenance activities then it can last longer. But = the losses in a row are the real criterion on which automation operates; th= e reliable cross-over that Rex tells us about must happen within that time. Keep safe, Pascal --=20 RAW mailing list RAW@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Thu Apr 2 13:51:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094693A1992 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=W8BTKp27; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=M8cjd2aI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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To: Janos Farkas , Fabrice Theoleyre , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "raw@ietf.org" , Rick Taylor Thread-Topic: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 Thread-Index: AdYGe8mxEVBupFh/T4SqJGrVNRXqOgBKEQsQABf2UoAAAJY4MAAXiphAACU++YAAAPGHAAAT827A Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 00:21:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9A3665D9-A268-4337-9ABB-73B58BE3AFE8@unistra.fr> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=eagros@dolby.com; x-originating-ip: [73.70.15.21] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c76c5b78-fe24-4aed-844a-08d7d764f6c9 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR06MB5240: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0362BF9FDB x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPRPx9QvtdRd for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 00:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout02-ext3.partage.renater.fr (smtpout02-ext3.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642583A12EB for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 00:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.25]) by smtpout20.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF7EC0B6E; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5F87A00C7; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36F2A00B1; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id o8KAFZ6MwhFI; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.88] (unknown [194.254.241.251]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5EF32A00C7; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Fabrice Theoleyre Message-Id: <918B4AF6-5E86-4018-8D44-CA84519459E2@unistra.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A0668691-546E-48BB-B8D6-AB42C1189BEE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 09:22:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Janos Farkas , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "raw@ietf.org" , Rick Taylor To: "Grossman, Ethan A." References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9A3665D9-A268-4337-9ABB-73B58BE3AFE8@unistra.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 07:22:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A0668691-546E-48BB-B8D6-AB42C1189BEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ethan,=20 Yes, wireless networks are lossy by nature. Some technologies using the = unlicensed band may even be subject to external interference. Last but = not least energy and bandwidth are limited resources for many = scenarios/technologies. This creates to my mind specific challenges for = wireless.=20 Thus, the objective was to emphasize these aspects in the document.=20 Best regards, Fabrice > Le 3 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 02:21, Grossman, Ethan A. a = =C3=A9crit : >=20 > Hi Fabrice, Pascal, > =20 > Do I understand correctly that the OAM requirements of RAW extend a = lot further than for wired, due to having to maintain status of the = various paths at very short time intervals (e.g. to make routing = decisions on very short notice due to transient conditions) and this is = part of what differentiates OAM for RAW from OAM for DetNet, and which = might justify a separate document because it is inherently a potentially = complex aspect of the proposed work of RAW, i.e. much more so than for = DetNet/wired? > =20 > Thanks, > Ethan.=20 > =20 > From: RAW > On = Behalf Of Janos Farkas > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 7:47 AM > To: Fabrice Theoleyre > > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; raw@ietf.org = ; Rick Taylor > > Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 > =20 > Dear Fabrice, > =20 > My point is that we have =E2=80=9CRequirements Document=E2=80=9D in = the charter. I haven=E2=80=99t seen draft for it yet. > Having an OAM requirements section int the Requirements Document is = not less readable or referenceable than a separate draft. Actually, = there is gain of saving separate intro, security considerations and so = on. > =20 > Best regards, > Janos > =20 > =20 > From: Fabrice Theoleyre >=20 > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 4:17 PM > To: Janos Farkas > > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; raw@ietf.org = ; Rick Taylor > > Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 > =20 > Dear Janos,=20 > =20 > I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and more = importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest.=20 > =20 > Merging OAM and general requirements in a single document may be an = option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having something very big, and = complicated to digest by everybody.=20 > =20 > Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we split both documents?=20 > What overlapping parts do you envision between both of them?=20 > =20 > Best regards, > Fabrice > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas > a =C3=A9crit : > =20 > Dear Fabrice and Pascal, >=20 > Perhaps, I have not elaborated my points too much. >=20 > I of course also see a lot of value in collecting the OAM requirements = for RAW. It is just not obvious to me that this draft is a collection of = RAW OAM requirements. For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" = or alike. >=20 > A requirements document is listed among the RAW milestones. > OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM requirements, could be part = of the RAW requirements document. > I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, maybe updated = text could be good input to RAW requirements document. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >=20 > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM > To: Fabrice Theoleyre >; Janos Farkas > > Cc: raw@ietf.org ; Rick Taylor = > > Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Dear all >=20 > The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It includes=20 > conformance > language, e.g.,: >=20 > " The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the data=20 > packets of > the flow to monitor." >=20 > " These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D >=20 > Yes, this is something we have to address. >=20 > Well that language can be found in informational as well; if it must = it must, fact of life that can be observed and described in an = informational. Publishing as informational for all I know does not = preclude such language. Note that this is not using BCP 14. >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the current=20= > RAW > charter. >=20 > Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created by=20 > implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given=20 > solution. While we point to existing works for each of = =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, we=20 > don=E2=80=99t recommend a specific one. >=20 > Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the=20= > draft is too =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this = is probably=20 > something we can address. > Let us know the incriminated parts. >=20 >=20 > God for me then...=20 > I'm happy that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW = angle is described in full. > It is up to the chairs and ADs to transfer or kindly ask for reviews = from DetNet at any stage if that can help.=20 >=20 > Be safe! >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thinking then on: > 1) Is the RAW working group the correct WG for this work? > Also in the RAW charter: > " RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts" > As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet OAM, not=20 > RAW > OAM on its own. The draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM.=20 > Well, DetNet OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for = it: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/ = > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/ = > Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet OAM=20 > could > be extended for wireless in the DetNet WG. >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, I do not support the adoption of this draft. >=20 > Regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW > On = Behalf Of Rick Taylor > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of=20 > draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a=20= > call > for working group adoption of their draft. >=20 >=20 > The link to the draft is:=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw- = > oam-support/ >=20 >=20 > This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >=20 > A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Rick and Eve > Co-chairs >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = --Apple-Mail=_A0668691-546E-48BB-B8D6-AB42C1189BEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ethan, 

Yes, = wireless networks are lossy by nature. Some technologies using the = unlicensed band may even be subject to external interference. Last but = not least energy and bandwidth are limited resources for many = scenarios/technologies. This creates to my mind specific challenges for = wireless. 

Thus, the objective was to emphasize these aspects in the = document. 

Best regards,
Fabrice


Le 3 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 02:21, Grossman, Ethan = A. <eagros@dolby.com> a =C3=A9crit :

Hi = Fabrice, Pascal,
 
Do I understand correctly that the OAM requirements of RAW = extend a lot further than for wired, due to having to maintain status of = the various paths at very short time intervals (e.g. to make routing = decisions on very short notice due to transient conditions) and this is = part of what differentiates OAM for RAW from OAM for DetNet, and which = might justify a separate document because it is inherently a potentially = complex aspect of the proposed work of RAW, i.e. much more so than for = DetNet/wired?
 
Thanks,
Ethan. 
 
From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Janos Farkas
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 = 7:47 AM
To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption = of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
 
Dear Fabrice,
 
My point is that we have =E2=80=9CRequirements Document=E2=80=9D= in the charter. I haven=E2=80=99t seen draft for it yet.
Having an = OAM requirements section int the Requirements Document is not less = readable or referenceable than a separate draft. Actually, there is gain = of saving separate intro, security considerations and so on.
 
Best = regards,
Janos
 
 
From: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr> 
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 = 4:17 PM
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption = of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
 
Dear Janos, 
 
I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and = more importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest. 
 
Merging OAM and general requirements in = a single document may be an option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having = something very big, and complicated to digest by everybody. 
 
Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we = split both documents? 
What overlapping parts do = you envision between both of them? 
 
Best regards,
Fabrice
 
 

 

Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com> = a =C3=A9crit :
 

Dear Fabrice and = Pascal,

Perhaps, I have not elaborated my = points too much.

I of course also see a lot = of value in collecting the OAM requirements for RAW. It is just not = obvious to me that this draft is a collection of RAW OAM requirements. = For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" or alike.

A requirements document is listed among the = RAW milestones.
OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM = requirements, could be part of the RAW requirements document.
I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, = maybe updated text could be good input to RAW requirements document.

Best regards,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM
To: = Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>; Janos Farkas = <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Dear = all

The intended status of the draft is Standards = Track. It includes 
conformance

language, e.g.,:

" The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the = data 
packets of

the flow to = monitor."

" These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D

Yes, this is something we have to = address.


Well that = language can be found in informational as well; if it must it must, fact = of life that can be observed and described in an informational. = Publishing as informational for all I know does not preclude such = language. Note that this is not using BCP 14.


 

To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the = current 
RAW

charter.
Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created = by 
implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a = given 
solution. While we point to existing works for each of = =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, we 
don=E2=80=99t = recommend a specific one.

Anyway, = maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the 
draft is too = =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this is probably 
something we = can address.
Let us know the incriminated parts.


God for me then... 
I'm happy = that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW angle is = described in full.
It is up to the chairs and ADs to = transfer or kindly ask for reviews from DetNet at any stage if that can = help. 
Be safe!

Pascal




Thinking then on:
1) Is the RAW = working group the correct WG for this work?
Also in the = RAW charter:
" RAW extends the DetNet Working Group = concepts"
As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension = of DetNet OAM, not 
RAW

OAM on its own. The = draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM. 
Well, DetNet = OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for it:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/
Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. = DetNet OAM 
could

be extended for wireless = in the DetNet WG.



So, I do not support the adoption of this draft.

Regards,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: = RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 = PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Subject: [Raw] = Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Hi All,

The authors of: = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a 
call

for working group adoption of their draft.


The link to the draft is: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-

oam-support/


This is your opportunity to express your = opinion.

A decision will be made on/after = 13th April.

Cheers,

Rick and Eve
Co-chairs

--
RAW mailing list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
--
RAW mailing list
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= --Apple-Mail=_A0668691-546E-48BB-B8D6-AB42C1189BEE-- From nobody Fri Apr 3 01:41:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807A43A1482 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 01:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=imt-atlantique.fr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dmFMMvzbrhLf for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 01:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr (zproxy130.enst.fr [IPv6:2001:660:330f:2::c2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36B573A147F for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 01:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7701201E0; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zproxy130.enst.fr [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id ivvkq-v3xWWb; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046541214DD; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 zproxy130.enst.fr 046541214DD DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=imt-atlantique.fr; s=50EA75E8-DE22-11E6-A6DE-0662BA474D24; t=1585903310; bh=8v/lLckAC01qmgqUFJa3UqCRbNpLqc4iXi4GQbmst/E=; h=Mime-Version:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=R/rGIAsb6A7RovEObc16303Pc8ocCkXxnwr4AqGEja/RrQz9XGLelAMl/56uuo6wC ZwEoRDv95kcJ88sGjNbSVVnGrdZIGJMMNgV8jpAEJOhGa36D7Ar1vSAv/vwNBcxUAE 9L2XFYqgkLA2xUqJWlvTwAzkDKcm8nxI9yTIZ1i4= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zproxy130.enst.fr Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zproxy130.enst.fr [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id n87YeU2Ea4YN; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:e0a:170:d730:b99b:d8fb:427:b829] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:170:d730:b99b:d8fb:427:b829]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A319E120500; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:49 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1A7EB93-4E08-42D8-AA0F-E708A0F3E9ED" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:41:49 +0200 Cc: Janos Farkas , Fabrice Theoleyre , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , "raw@ietf.org" , Rick Taylor Message-Id: <29AB279E-6629-45C0-9CB7-D5E5191005B9@imt-atlantique.fr> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9A3665D9-A268-4337-9ABB-73B58BE3AFE8@unistra.fr> To: "Grossman, Ethan A." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 08:41:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1A7EB93-4E08-42D8-AA0F-E708A0F3E9ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Ethan, I might replace routing decisions in your example with forwarding = decisions. The routing decisions will be for long period of time while forwarding = will be rather on very short notice as you mention. My 2 cents, Georgios > On Apr 3, 2020, at 02:21, Grossman, Ethan A. wrote: >=20 > Hi Fabrice, Pascal, > =20 > Do I understand correctly that the OAM requirements of RAW extend a = lot further than for wired, due to having to maintain status of the = various paths at very short time intervals (e.g. to make routing = decisions on very short notice due to transient conditions) and this is = part of what differentiates OAM for RAW from OAM for DetNet, and which = might justify a separate document because it is inherently a potentially = complex aspect of the proposed work of RAW, i.e. much more so than for = DetNet/wired? > =20 > Thanks, > Ethan.=20 > =20 > From: RAW On Behalf Of Janos Farkas > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 7:47 AM > To: Fabrice Theoleyre > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; = raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor > Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 > =20 > Dear Fabrice, > =20 > My point is that we have =E2=80=9CRequirements Document=E2=80=9D in = the charter. I haven=E2=80=99t seen draft for it yet. > Having an OAM requirements section int the Requirements Document is = not less readable or referenceable than a separate draft. Actually, = there is gain of saving separate intro, security considerations and so = on. > =20 > Best regards, > Janos > =20 > =20 > From: Fabrice Theoleyre >=20 > Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 4:17 PM > To: Janos Farkas > > Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >; raw@ietf.org = ; Rick Taylor > > Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 > =20 > Dear Janos,=20 > =20 > I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and more = importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest.=20 > =20 > Merging OAM and general requirements in a single document may be an = option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having something very big, and = complicated to digest by everybody.=20 > =20 > Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we split both documents?=20 > What overlapping parts do you envision between both of them?=20 > =20 > Best regards, > Fabrice > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas > a =C3=A9crit : > =20 > Dear Fabrice and Pascal, >=20 > Perhaps, I have not elaborated my points too much. >=20 > I of course also see a lot of value in collecting the OAM requirements = for RAW. It is just not obvious to me that this draft is a collection of = RAW OAM requirements. For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" = or alike. >=20 > A requirements document is listed among the RAW milestones. > OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM requirements, could be part = of the RAW requirements document. > I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, maybe updated = text could be good input to RAW requirements document. >=20 > Best regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >=20 > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM > To: Fabrice Theoleyre >; Janos Farkas > > Cc: raw@ietf.org ; Rick Taylor = > > Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Dear all >=20 > The intended status of the draft is Standards Track. It includes=20 > conformance > language, e.g.,: >=20 > " The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the data=20 > packets of > the flow to monitor." >=20 > " These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D >=20 > Yes, this is something we have to address. >=20 > Well that language can be found in informational as well; if it must = it must, fact of life that can be observed and described in an = informational. Publishing as informational for all I know does not = preclude such language. Note that this is not using BCP 14. >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the current=20= > RAW > charter. >=20 > Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created by=20 > implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a given=20 > solution. While we point to existing works for each of = =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, we=20 > don=E2=80=99t recommend a specific one. >=20 > Anyway, maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the=20= > draft is too =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this = is probably=20 > something we can address. > Let us know the incriminated parts. >=20 >=20 > God for me then...=20 > I'm happy that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW = angle is described in full. > It is up to the chairs and ADs to transfer or kindly ask for reviews = from DetNet at any stage if that can help.=20 >=20 > Be safe! >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thinking then on: > 1) Is the RAW working group the correct WG for this work? > Also in the RAW charter: > " RAW extends the DetNet Working Group concepts" > As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension of DetNet OAM, not=20 > RAW > OAM on its own. The draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM.=20 > Well, DetNet OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for = it: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/ = > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/ = > Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. DetNet OAM=20 > could > be extended for wireless in the DetNet WG. >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, I do not support the adoption of this draft. >=20 > Regards, > Janos >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW > On = Behalf Of Rick Taylor > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 PM > To: raw@ietf.org > Subject: [Raw] Call for adoption of=20 > draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a=20= > call > for working group adoption of their draft. >=20 >=20 > The link to the draft is:=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw- = > oam-support/ >=20 >=20 > This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >=20 > A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Rick and Eve > Co-chairs >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw = > =20 > --=20 > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw --Apple-Mail=_D1A7EB93-4E08-42D8-AA0F-E708A0F3E9ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hello Ethan,

I might replace routing decisions in = your example with forwarding decisions.
The routing = decisions will be for long period of time while forwarding will be = rather on very short notice as you mention.

My 2 cents,
Georgios

On Apr 3, 2020, at 02:21, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> = wrote:

Hi Fabrice, Pascal,
 
Do I = understand correctly that the OAM requirements of RAW extend a lot = further than for wired, due to having to maintain status of the various = paths at very short time intervals (e.g. to make routing decisions on = very short notice due to transient conditions) and this is part of what = differentiates OAM for RAW from OAM for DetNet, and which might justify = a separate document because it is inherently a potentially complex = aspect of the proposed work of RAW, i.e. much more so than for = DetNet/wired?
 
Thanks,
Ethan. 
 
From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Janos Farkas
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 = 7:47 AM
To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor = <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption = of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
 
Dear Fabrice,
 
My point is that we have =E2=80=9CRequirements Document=E2=80=9D= in the charter. I haven=E2=80=99t seen draft for it yet.
Having an = OAM requirements section int the Requirements Document is not less = readable or referenceable than a separate draft. Actually, there is gain = of saving separate intro, security considerations and so on.
 
Best = regards,
Janos
 
 
From: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr> 
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 = 4:17 PM
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption = of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01
 
Dear Janos, 
 
I guess that focusing on the OAM requirements for RAW and = more importantly on what makes it so specific is of interest. 
 
Merging OAM and general requirements in = a single document may be an option, but I=E2=80=99m afraid of having = something very big, and complicated to digest by everybody. 
 
Pedagogically, shouldn=E2=80=99t we = split both documents? 
What overlapping parts do = you envision between both of them? 
 
Best regards,
Fabrice
 
 

 

Le 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 22:40, Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com> = a =C3=A9crit :
 

Dear Fabrice and = Pascal,

Perhaps, I have not elaborated my = points too much.

I of course also see a lot = of value in collecting the OAM requirements for RAW. It is just not = obvious to me that this draft is a collection of RAW OAM requirements. = For instance, the title is not "OAM Requirements" or alike.

A requirements document is listed among the = RAW milestones.
OAM requirements, clearly phrased as OAM = requirements, could be part of the RAW requirements document.
I understand this is an early draft. Given the comments, = maybe updated text could be good input to RAW requirements document.

Best regards,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:25 AM
To: = Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>; Janos Farkas = <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: raw@ietf.org; Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Subject: RE: [Raw] Call for adoption of = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Dear = all

The intended status of the draft is Standards = Track. It includes 
conformance

language, e.g.,:

" The ping packets must be labeled in the same way as the = data 
packets of

the flow to = monitor."

" These metrics should be collected:=E2=80=9D

Yes, this is something we have to = address.


Well that = language can be found in informational as well; if it must it must, fact = of life that can be observed and described in an informational. = Publishing as informational for all I know does not preclude such = language. Note that this is not using BCP 14.


 

To me, the draft seems to be solution, hence, outside of the = current 
RAW

charter.
Actually, we have tried to explain the challenges created = by 
implementing OAM with RAW networks. We tried to not detail a = given 
solution. While we point to existing works for each of = =E2=80=9Dchallenge=E2=80=9D, we 
don=E2=80=99t = recommend a specific one.

Anyway, = maintaining an informational status was our objective. If the 
draft is too = =E2=80=9Dsolution oriented=E2=80=9D in some parts, this is probably 
something we = can address.
Let us know the incriminated parts.


God for me then... 
I'm happy = that RAW works on this draft for now to ensure that the RAW angle is = described in full.
It is up to the chairs and ADs to = transfer or kindly ask for reviews from DetNet at any stage if that can = help. 
Be safe!

Pascal




Thinking then on:
1) Is the RAW = working group the correct WG for this work?
Also in the = RAW charter:
" RAW extends the DetNet Working Group = concepts"
As I understand, RAW OAM should be an extension = of DetNet OAM, not 
RAW

OAM on its own. The = draft does not mention or refer to DetNet OAM. 
Well, DetNet = OAM has not been finished yet, but there are drafts for it:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-mpls-oam/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-detnet-ip-oam/
Perhaps the OAM work could be done in the DetNet WG. = DetNet OAM 
could

be extended for wireless = in the DetNet WG.



So, I do not support the adoption of this draft.

Regards,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: = RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 12:14 = PM
To: raw@ietf.org
Subject: [Raw] = Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01

Hi All,

The authors of: = draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a 
call

for working group adoption of their draft.


The link to the draft is: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-

oam-support/


This is your opportunity to express your = opinion.

A decision will be made on/after = 13th April.

Cheers,

Rick and Eve
Co-chairs

--
RAW mailing list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
--
RAW mailing list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
 
-- 
RAW mailing = list
RAW@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

= --Apple-Mail=_D1A7EB93-4E08-42D8-AA0F-E708A0F3E9ED-- From nobody Fri Apr 3 12:23:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9ACC3A0404; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H_BjcNwYJ0J8; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A95783A03FE; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id z5so8450262oth.9; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=exCy5MoofBFuIXhqjTMUdt1NReGgRfjOa8smbAdPfPc=; b=TjyYMGbmuZ+regejdA5yua4MS98GZzcfHvTxNyIvmwNyRRo3AsbtDWqW7bNA391XcK xD1BuPIlSk7QY1iYt09kuQrCob70x0BURch7g8dVWIsawErRbg/ajkFbphWP/W67C5iK TWfRqIERInckklp44F/b1VSyUwwavzPrKzvi1MgwY43XiRUDXQscRkrgJ+iDHu4JPiGg PhrrV/xfD4zgFdod1VBIOH+WbsBTtVG47/kJWymJ0OhRSnEGlCtx6CmqV6bh3ViQJCdr /uIcIlcRAQ6TbklS6GKszp+5KKpnTALVYQdAk4UlQwm9E9e0oencYzxdBn/JuUBipc50 rz8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=exCy5MoofBFuIXhqjTMUdt1NReGgRfjOa8smbAdPfPc=; b=p1M+2FLl5kGopQQ3T+7o9064H1f4Kytbg4z5D4SWk8rVRk1wCT2Mvu6GkHvMzX7H10 oF1K9fRwZNSD4JSRgIadRtGQC7uFbFLe8KYzvwaQSRRu0DiiQ8rBAiXnBVqCn+esW5rC Wl5oEhvxP5UawBpWbp4ESYbJcvRYaKIHTFhQMScXjLGUlFxB21fzgPo611vTbnW6mOk/ tqUMkIbIpeC8eWptRvuTT8TPPD/NwNqxd1mvsZk8Kx4prWVsaL9h7D0TDwud3AvRpRSt V+BZRbyxioiV9FVAYepeLb0CJCo/X91s6xUhi61squUZVz/H9lwa/wQRpuermiofJ0jg H3Og== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYtdW9Ax2rLzJrrjvxt1E6c5XgD+ooPYK5Y8xXmoOsyvQI4hDLa UeMm+bBOoh7/MSqeHC0uKU3xjLITUQ7e8RXM6F0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI14gFYG44bNjhLRR5uUHM+0LA2eqVUkwjjvUPp5xKrJOfAusNSFwuBz2vNiGhcb5v6/A+gz7OvAiFv1EPpUBk= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:77d1:: with SMTP id w17mr7817225otl.44.1585941822425; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:23:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:23:24 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: "raw@ietf.org" , "raw-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f5d01c05a267da8f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 19:23:59 -0000 --000000000000f5d01c05a267da8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:27 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Dear all: > > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match the > list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW charter. In > particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an architecture > draft but does not require a problem statement. > I don't agree that this WG is not required to do a problem statement, in my opinion any new WG is required to do so. AB --000000000000f5d01c05a267da8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:27 PM Pascal= Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Dear all:

The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match the li= st of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW charter. In part= icular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an architecture draft b= ut does not require a problem statement.

I don't agree that this WG is not required to do a problem statement,= in my opinion any new WG is required to do so.

AB=
--000000000000f5d01c05a267da8f-- From nobody Fri Apr 3 12:34:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2FC3A079A for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:34:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C77nzdsPAlDB for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A120C3A0780 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id z5so8481300oth.9 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:33:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2LOxaGyMNl6UH3J19qC2ldPMv0jPei8JrXH9fNEh3/A=; b=kLWqa9x4MxviyrtW7cuauWP+tHGVDb1pKfi1WEPzYu8wij6LaN0c7f54xvNOr8K+6C F/g1cmdPh7wOIj4p7ZWrK8fL+4COeFzN2hAbzUI7kWRp9+eeGwYfI78CaknIqAlIANZF lZGmIbOzVb5eUtwYUOXRg/QMUj5OGitJWnHb9FI51s9fqVJsyRpV7Lbn4ePBM/zbCOrJ SM32IbYE9+STzhDifm5MTrSfzyNd8QwrSHuspQNcps3mavJF9e8Vqpl8kGe3hCXcoUWi E43pAbJptX5qX94lzonrPHkbDm0BEs75nguNK5doc6T0+GzyO+8lSGDQySVrChjyvvAb ZrXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2LOxaGyMNl6UH3J19qC2ldPMv0jPei8JrXH9fNEh3/A=; b=AiCgCo1gYvHEFs/zUW9hqJyDZcCjYB9Bhbsg1vc6IWTZUZXZnXUl5Vw+w0sewpd+FC 6LXHeAqXns41u8DpC41zkwZ1OwD40YJ1L20fqXwVNcZkT6w30RZAtmf1SjsiH+9JBIzJ s0DM6kYrR27aIlHW48lDvYwLcIUHL9MPdR1ikUmnG0ZOSyLii00zT5FmuZGJ4Rvdn9ch Oodslq0Uq1fir+Kt6YCqAi2ath5GLVNSGP8L0DxUI5m2lG+nbsvcG106y9Tz4jHbMrOh IWGq7wDna/uOUy2DCpcVJZc1wgGdTxsdYBymkdRWyOUvOlgw2raKa26fFh6zrxRVjqNC 9KPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuasuIOEmh/LRhaGqQH6HEHnXwlpCdDSPhF2OAjzSGRaQgApNKtG 2DTgHbUooaR2cI8jAaej8nxaeVHQObywPZhQy0s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL4oeL3e6Hr3QVwC114qWLcqyHuQWFAt7KeoG7Cv7HXkZQd9aIOl6Zwr6skwMpfSqPFnuaVzQbF6vB7Je7irTY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:77d1:: with SMTP id w17mr7847650otl.44.1585942386653; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:33:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> <1585770064.2437.660.camel@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:32:49 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Rex Buddenberg , "raw@ietf.org" , Fabrice Theoleyre , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000973bf005a267fc3a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 19:34:10 -0000 --000000000000973bf005a267fc3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 4:08 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Dear RAWers, > > The Industrial people I've been discussing with tell me that they want 5 > nines of reliability (PDR=99.999%) because if the faults are independent, > then there are 10 nines that we have 2 faults in a row, and 15 nines that > you get three. > > What they really want is to avoid faults in a row. Because after 4 packet > losses, the control loop is unstable and the production line is emergency > halted. Once a year you get a bad look. Twice and your equipment is on the > curb. > > You see that the nines of reliability actually translate in an unscheduled > loss of availability that is less than 4 loops. Because we cannot repair > that fast, we need redundancy is a requirement. > > In the architecture I used the following definition: > > Reliability: Reliability is a measure of the probability that an > item will perform its intended function for a specified interval > under stated conditions. For RAW, the service that is expected is > delivery within a bounded latency and a failure is when the packet > is either lost or delivered too late. RAW expresses reliability > in terms of Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) and Maximum > Consecutive Failures (MCF). > I think the reliability definition in RAW depends on the use case, and IMHO we cannot define for All RAW technologies or use cases, furthermore, in wireless cases the packet loss is not correct to measure reliability, I recommend bit error rate in wireless. AB --000000000000973bf005a267fc3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 4:08 PM Pascal= Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Dear RAWers,

The Industrial people I've been discussing with tell me that they want = 5 nines of reliability (PDR=3D99.999%) because if the faults are independen= t, then there are 10 nines that we have 2 faults in a row, and 15 nines tha= t you get three.

What they really want is to avoid faults in a row. Because after 4 packet l= osses, the control loop is unstable and the production line is emergency ha= lted. Once a year you get a bad look. Twice and your equipment is on the cu= rb.

You see that the nines of reliability actually translate in an unscheduled = loss of availability that is less than 4 loops. Because we cannot repair th= at fast, we need redundancy is a requirement.

In the architecture I used the following definition:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Reliability:=C2=A0 Reliability is a measure of the probability= that an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 item will perform its intended function for a specifie= d interval
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 under stated conditions.=C2=A0 For RAW, the service th= at is expected is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 delivery within a bounded latency and a failure is whe= n the packet
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is either lost or delivered too late.=C2=A0 RAW expres= ses reliability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in terms of Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) and Maxim= um
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Consecutive Failures (MCF).

<= /div>
I think the reliability definition in RAW depends on the use case= , and IMHO we cannot define for All RAW technologies or use cases,
furthermore, in wireless=C2=A0cases the packet loss is not correct to mea= sure reliability, I recommend bit error rate in wireless.

AB
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The Existing IETF Technologies and Gap Analysis Document could include: - problem statement - existing IETF technologies to address the problem - gaps Regards, Janos -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) =20 Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 7:22 PM To: Rute Sofia ; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) ; Janos Farkas Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-0= 0.txt Hello Rute >=20 > After reading the draft, and being one of the "wireless" as well as "IP p= eople" > :), IMO: >=20 > - this is not an architecture, so the term framework is possibly better. I added .framework to the title as suggested in the 01 that I just posted. = I expect to keep on working to add more text that's actually architecture. > - there would be benefits in merging the content of this draft and the=20 > OAM requirements draft. We had a certain organization in the RAW docs and the charter came out diff= erently, so we are reshuffling text between docs, this your impression on t= he architecture. The architecture deliverable is new with the charter and w= e are just starting to publish text for it, using text from the problem sta= tement as context since there will not be a problem statement published . >=20 > Relevant to the research towards industrial environments (e.g.,=20 > industrial IoT) is that determinism needs to be addressed both on the MAC= and IP layer.. > Ideally working together. Great point.=20 >=20 > The terminology, namely, reliability and availability, are somewhat=20 > confusing...perhaps state that reliability is in this draft defined=20 > based on two specific indicators, namely, latency (MTBF) and packet=20 > loss (MCF). Similarly to availability, how is a "path" defined here? E2E= path? 1 hop? A path is a very generic term and usually allows A to reach B, so at least = it is not a hop between A and B. In DetNet, the term covers a complex graph with PRE. At 6TiSCH, the decisio= n was to form a term (Track) to cover the complex graph towards B (almost a= DODAG but not exactly) on which we apply PAREO functions.=20 This doc inherits from 6TISCH for that terminology. MTBF is not latency but the time between packets that fail to achieve their= contract, the contract being for instance in-order delivery within bounded= time, to echo DetNet. Or something else, Reliability is abstract to the SL= A. MCF is not packet loss but losses in a row. If you lose exactly every other= packet you have a PDR of only 50% but the MCF is 1. You need both to expr= ess that you never lose more than X packets in a row and that this event (o= f losing >X packets in a row) is really rare. I put some more text on reliability in -1. Now we need text on architecture= as you point out. Keep safe! Pascal >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert=20 > (pthubert) > Sent: 02 April 2020 14:29 > To: Janos Farkas > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20 > architecture-00.txt >=20 > Hello Janos: >=20 > I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. >=20 > I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you,=20 > so I'm reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also=20 > attracts wireless experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not=20 > take it as a requirement that what this resulting team produces is a=20 > subset of DetNet and is contained in the DetNet Architecture. I=20 > actually expect new approaches that are specific to RAW in addition to th= ose inherited from DetNet and possibly extended. >=20 > If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the=20 > wireless experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture=20 > is the beginning of a solution, which is composed of many components=20 > that the architecture outlines. That's the reason why it must come the=20 > best informed party, and hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for t= hat at the IETF. >=20 > All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. >=20 > Keep safe, >=20 > Pascal > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Janos Farkas > > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt > > > > Hi Pascal, > > > > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW=20 > > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely,=20 > > to collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the=20 > > use cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about=20 > > to solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be=20 > > glad to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet=20 > > the requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may=20 > > help seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/arch= itecture. > > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but=20 > > run with some overlaps. > > > > > > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ > > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: > > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." > > where the work items were: > > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic=20 > > wireless use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document > > 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that=20 > > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS= )" > > > > > > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer=20 > > framework to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a=20 > > solution. I'm most familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example.=20 > > I think RFC 8655 DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the=20 > > DetNet solution to the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases=20 > > and RFC 8577 DetNet Problem Statement. Of course, RFC > > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by=20 > > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is=20 > > a solution at > high level. > > > > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." > > > > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order=20 > > to remain in the scope of the charter. > > > > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes=20 > > to my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft=20 > > that it is good, but it should not specify solution details. > > > > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". > > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the=20 > > two options for the reasons explained above. > > > > Best regards, > > Janos > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > > (pthubert) > > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM > > To: raw@ietf.org > > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org > > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20 > > architecture-00.txt > > > > Dear all: > > > > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match=20 > > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW=20 > > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and=20 > > an architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. > > > > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO=20 > > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document.=20 > > I just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish=20 > > to go and > solicit early feedback. > > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. > > > > Comments welcome! > > > > Keep safe... > > > > Pascal > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 > > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos > > ; > > Georgios Papadopoulos ; > > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Subject: New Version Notification for=20 > > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the=20 > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture > > Document date: 2020-04-01 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 16 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw= - > > architecture-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw- > architecture/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architec= ture-00 > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-ra= w- > > architecture > > > > > > Abstract: > > Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced > > multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on > > wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a > > centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the > > controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW > > separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is > > recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding > > decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the > > forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the > > redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be > > used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while > > minimizing the waste of resources. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.i= etf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > > RAW mailing list > > RAW@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >=20 > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Fri Apr 3 12:49:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2016B3A0922 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:49:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jh_0cIMeoj1H for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F23B3A0905 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id k9so7192674oia.8 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=epmTdyI8NLfr1SwsB9c7hdUXMNlpUJ1CjBo6CSocNjU=; b=T/bHIENzOlrI3z7MrZvzLmd4yVy6lyIB7wyG27upR8QHp9nqDT18iOzNdN0cMzYrjs 7pfpSbzBD5XlCesRO5v5o4/UYGxteCMiuQJeuxUNgw951r+tKb8dVShI2WOUDJ4tkyVH xMZPAeR3qkk3COcvLgasPDnXox3YqlU44EumopKmX5mFIAdIsS1tJliNIFa64kM0Roat s3GVrsY9yfJIEoUYj1WLr78pdHmM1CKInASs1CSEVGTtTBWHEQBSDGA/VjNNwFcLPVHN WFnxWfnrQBhuS9kBztgry2Mv8Y+scmN0leqSv8s15HVh2N5Bx1KbNiONA+tUS3lBwfWr Knpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=epmTdyI8NLfr1SwsB9c7hdUXMNlpUJ1CjBo6CSocNjU=; b=JK7YoDWLLr0Y056Xlfrg/q39mIeKMWhtWffuiX/eZXvxorB+zfPY0H+WhDiTi+G1F2 wQrqFBUKgOgit8WuhX0PHFuzvJp7ogPgb59FlMrH/+2C+mKVqEGCND0lY3Es6Q4G9DEn lgvgodoJmoa5fWjttlIvyFMW2ELfOy56VR46VZcbTV+ugkD0n7ZWby6Xag2CnwKA//vk WL2i8YUG41I6o/mAcpQrJuaYsFNFBtVlpa0HmbRsU+7jvbqVJoteFwUWgzNNvufXN8PY fxUcBYLopIZKlLor9GqfQyllz1Gg3RAUUGJzmsntD0aTDBDCOZ+piqqma6oQBjX7DdT3 kYRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua7PElDaDv3YcL8UMgPjc7tNfzne3Pqk4aBnu0A8szpUmVZwLeU CHDI4u6UT+bjbU26JpBaBm4x5fm8NrTGuZwQ3ug= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLdgwRndxgD+NZT+5fgmd7ItbzKpqvjL3yMXlpAy7Qki65Ln2GUVEjlFD95m9JomAf8ZCfq7HR5BuCtdsvAYJc= X-Received: by 2002:aca:f254:: with SMTP id q81mr4460917oih.12.1585943376749; Fri, 03 Apr 2020 12:49:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> <1585770064.2437.660.camel@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 21:49:18 +0200 Message-ID: To: Janos Farkas Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Rex Buddenberg , "raw@ietf.org" , Fabrice Theoleyre , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009aebc605a2683724" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 19:49:39 -0000 --0000000000009aebc605a2683724 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Janos, On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:33 PM Janos Farkas wrote: > Hi Pascal, > > Reliability and Availability are unfortunately controversial terms as > different industries, or even sub-groups of industries have defined them > independently of each other, hence, very much unfortunately differently. A > lot of discussion is now happening on it in multiple fora with the > convergence of Operations Technology, Information Technology, and > Telecommunications networking. I would not try to redefine them in RAW. We > may consider taking one of the existing or converged definitions. > I think it is better to define them for each technology. > > When it comes to packet loss, I have the same information as you: there is > no tolerance of n consecutive packets in industrial automation for the > reasons you described. The numbers I heard is no 2 or 3 consecutive packets > are allowed to be lost. > IMO packet lost is not measure for reliability because we still can repeat is any protocol, the most important issue is packet error rate, receiving packets with error is a problem, because in wireless there is possibilities of packet errors and bit errors per packet which could not be corrected. So we need packet error rate most likely. > This is also captured in the DetNet use cases: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-7.4 > In DetNet, we did not try to convert this requirement to X nines, but > introduced new parameter for it: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-07#section-5.9.5 > > As it was also pointed out on the DetNet list, it actually often means > zero packet loss requirement: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/detnet/nkoqM-cBlmIhBoyvs4u6nv-q-t0/ I agree that the packet loss should not be an issue, we need all packets to be received on time even it was re-sent. > > > So, we need service protection to meet this requirement as described in > DetNet Architecture: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8655.html#name-service-protection. > agree AB --0000000000009aebc605a2683724 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Janos,

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:33 PM = Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Pascal,

Reliability and Availability are unfortunately controversial terms as diffe= rent industries, or even sub-groups of industries have defined them indepen= dently of each other, hence, very much unfortunately differently. A lot of = discussion is now happening on it in multiple fora with the convergence of = Operations Technology, Information Technology, and Telecommunications netwo= rking. I would not try to redefine them in RAW. We may consider taking one = of the existing or converged definitions.

I think it is better to define them for each technology.=C2=A0

When it comes to packet loss, I have the same information as you: there is = no tolerance of n consecutive packets in industrial automation for the reas= ons you described. The numbers I heard is no 2 or 3 consecutive packets are= allowed to be lost.

IMO packet lost is= not measure for reliability because we still can repeat is any protocol, t= he most important issue is packet error rate, receiving packets with error = is a problem, because in wireless there is possibilities of packet errors a= nd bit errors per packet which could not be corrected. So we need packet er= ror rate most likely.
=C2=A0
This is also captured in the DetNet use cases:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8578#section-7.4 In DetNet, we did not try to convert this requirement to X nines, but intro= duced new parameter for it:
https://tools.i= etf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-flow-information-model-07#section-5.9.5<= br>
As it was also pointed out on the DetNet list, it actually often means zero= packet loss requirement:
https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/detnet/nkoqM-cBlmIhBoyvs4u6nv-q-t0/

I agree that the packet loss should not be an issue, we need all pa= ckets to be received on time even it was re-sent.
=C2=A0


So, we need service protection to meet this requirement as described in Det= Net Architecture: https://www.rfc= -editor.org/rfc/rfc8655.html#name-service-protection.
<= div>
agree

AB
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X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 19:27:38 -0000 Hi,     I just (re)red this draft -- I agree that it doesn't seem to be an architecture.  It does raise some good points related to requirements and possible tools for a DetNet wireless solution. The main points I'd look for from a RAW (DetNet over Wireless) architecture, or framework, document  are how the Data plane (including OAM) and controller planes at the DetNet Layer interact with those same functions at the Wireless layer.  For example, how is a DetNet flow mapped into a wireless track/flow/stream, and how control information from the wireless layer makes it to the DetNet control(ler) plane and how is it used (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5623 provides an example of a generic approach to this). I think the best way forward for the material in this document is for it to be integrated into other existing a future documents -- and for the WG to not adopt it as a foundation for a RAW architecture document. Lou On 4/2/20 10:53 AM, Rute Sofia wrote: > Hello > > After reading the draft, and being one of the "wireless" as well as "IP people" :), IMO: > > - this is not an architecture, so the term framework is possibly better. > - there would be benefits in merging the content of this draft and the OAM requirements draft. > > Relevant to the research towards industrial environments (e.g., industrial IoT) is that determinism needs to be addressed both on the MAC and IP layer. Ideally working together. > > The terminology, namely, reliability and availability, are somewhat confusing...perhaps state that reliability is in this draft defined based on two specific indicators, namely, latency (MTBF) and packet loss (MCF). Similarly to availability, how is a "path" defined here? E2E path? 1 hop? > > Best Regards, > Rute Sofia > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Sent: 02 April 2020 14:29 > To: Janos Farkas > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt > > Hello Janos: > > I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. > > I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirement that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is contained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that are specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly extended. > > If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the beginning of a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF. > > All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. > > Keep safe, > > Pascal >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Janos Farkas >> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 >> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for >> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt >> >> Hi Pascal, >> >> I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW >> charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to >> collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use >> cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to >> solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad >> to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the >> requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help >> seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architecture. >> I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but >> run with some overlaps. >> >> >> Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ >> " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: >> For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." >> where the work items were: >> "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless >> use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document >> 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that >> the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" >> >> >> As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework >> to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most >> familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655 >> DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to >> the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet >> Problem Statement. Of course, RFC >> 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by >> individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a solution at high level. >> >> The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." >> >> So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to >> remain in the scope of the charter. >> >> As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to >> my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that >> it is good, but it should not specify solution details. >> >> I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". >> I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two >> options for the reasons explained above. >> >> Best regards, >> Janos >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert >> (pthubert) >> Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM >> To: raw@ietf.org >> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw- >> architecture-00.txt >> >> Dear all: >> >> The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match >> the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW >> charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an >> architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. >> >> Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO >> requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I >> just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go and solicit early feedback. >> Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. >> >> Comments welcome! >> >> Keep safe... >> >> Pascal >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 >> To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos >> ; >> Georgios Papadopoulos ; >> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> Subject: New Version Notification for >> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture >> Revision: 00 >> Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture >> Document date: 2020-04-01 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 16 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw- >> architecture-00.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00 >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw- >> architecture >> >> >> Abstract: >> Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced >> multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on >> wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a >> centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the >> controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW >> separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is >> recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding >> decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the >> forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the >> redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be >> used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while >> minimizing the waste of resources. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> >> -- >> RAW mailing list >> RAW@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Tue Apr 7 12:40:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7403A1000 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ysKzOBPc0St1QZl73mTEub8Sl3QYbMTjvgVxE76LMo4=; b=G/X9W0/upsSSDQetevQ+L7Y6/3 4dUef/wjPS2d5s9ys9O/70MmbU61itaTkLVVKrICzU4Lxoy9uYtTVi+QPv6CurcNqZyYiOAMNlh2m Vx/Nz+hFKTdSm0JzFfns2s7Yq; Received: from pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([72.66.11.201]:50462 helo=fs2.dc.labn.net) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jLu4s-003QIV-Vg; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 13:40:07 -0600 To: Rick Taylor , "raw@ietf.org" , draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support@ietf.org References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <6de68145-6eb8-8bca-b6d4-8b312756c52d@labn.net> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:40:05 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 72.66.11.201 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1jLu4s-003QIV-Vg X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-72-66-11-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net (fs2.dc.labn.net) [72.66.11.201]:50462 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 19:40:16 -0000 Hi,     I read this document and generally like what I see. We actually don't have a document of this type for DetNet net as a whole. (Actually, most the concepts I read are really independent of wireless and are generally applicable to almost any network.) My suggestion is revise this document and break out what is generally applicable to any DetNet and what is specific to a wireless DetNet.  Once this is done, it should be apparent if there are really two documents here, one for DetNet and one for RAW, or just one for RAW. To be clear, my view is that this document is not ready for adoption. From a content perspective you might want to check out https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5860 and reuse some text from there. Cheers, Lou On 3/30/20 6:13 AM, Rick Taylor wrote: > Hi All, > > The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a call for working group adoption of their draft. > > The link to the draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ > > This is your opportunity to express your opinion. > > A decision will be made on/after 13th April. > > Cheers, > > Rick and Eve > Co-chairs > From nobody Tue Apr 7 13:24:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCAE3A12B3; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcmF3DQo= From nobody Wed Apr 8 00:09:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3942E3A0934; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 00:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2K6yCCyDSACs; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 00:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout01-ext3.partage.renater.fr (smtpout01-ext3.partage.renater.fr [194.254.240.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FDD3A0932; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 00:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr (zmtaauth01.partage.renater.fr 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Fabrice Theoleyre In-Reply-To: <6de68145-6eb8-8bca-b6d4-8b312756c52d@labn.net> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:09:26 +0200 Cc: Rick Taylor , "raw@ietf.org" , draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <6de68145-6eb8-8bca-b6d4-8b312756c52d@labn.net> To: Lou Berger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 07:09:50 -0000 Hi Lou,=20 Yes, this is something we are currently doing: making a clear = distinction between what is specific to wireless, from what is common = with "generic detnet". We also read the rfc 5860, and it was indeed a source of inspiration.=20 The current document is definitely not ready for adoption, but the = objective was here to ask the opinion of everybody to improve the = quality of the draft, and to fit the RAW objectives.=20 Cheers, Fabrice > Le 7 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 21:40, Lou Berger a =C3=A9crit = : >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I read this document and generally like what I see. We actually = don't have a document of this type for DetNet net as a whole. (Actually, = most the concepts I read are really independent of wireless and are = generally applicable to almost any network.) My suggestion is revise = this document and break out what is generally applicable to any DetNet = and what is specific to a wireless DetNet. Once this is done, it should = be apparent if there are really two documents here, one for DetNet and = one for RAW, or just one for RAW. >=20 > To be clear, my view is that this document is not ready for adoption. >=20 > =46rom a content perspective you might want to check out = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5860 and reuse some text from there. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Lou >=20 > On 3/30/20 6:13 AM, Rick Taylor wrote: >> Hi All, >>=20 >> The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a = call for working group adoption of their draft. >>=20 >> The link to the draft is: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ >>=20 >> This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >>=20 >> A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Rick and Eve >> Co-chairs >>=20 From nobody Wed Apr 8 11:59:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1873A159E for ; 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bh=DDPBuVR9h4wnFuueav6NDtHFX3dZdXh80s7w4Vn6dYY=; b=uA7u4hCUs8DERKW80UiVihPjB2 mBvrmYvTdGwjxPVIrRrpEto5Nodoi+DkRy2K6TjMr5esCCdGTBoNeFDf04XyH4ottgK6t0w6yusnj CK8Z7v6F/onEk87M4RdGpY7wV; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=32193 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jMFvI-001u0y-Om; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:59:40 -0600 To: Fabrice Theoleyre Cc: "raw@ietf.org" , draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support@ietf.org, Rick Taylor References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801F5831EA3@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <6de68145-6eb8-8bca-b6d4-8b312756c52d@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <2b2e0617-ff53-985c-c816-029c910ccb09@labn.net> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:59:39 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jMFvI-001u0y-Om X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:32193 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 19 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] Call for adoption of draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 18:59:43 -0000 Fabrice Thanks for the response and I look forward to seeing the update! Lou On 4/8/2020 3:09 AM, Fabrice Theoleyre wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Yes, this is something we are currently doing: making a clear distinction between what is specific to wireless, from what is common with "generic detnet". > We also read the rfc 5860, and it was indeed a source of inspiration. > > The current document is definitely not ready for adoption, but the objective was here to ask the opinion of everybody to improve the quality of the draft, and to fit the RAW objectives. > > Cheers, > Fabrice > > > >> Le 7 avr. 2020 à 21:40, Lou Berger a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> I read this document and generally like what I see. We actually don't have a document of this type for DetNet net as a whole. (Actually, most the concepts I read are really independent of wireless and are generally applicable to almost any network.) My suggestion is revise this document and break out what is generally applicable to any DetNet and what is specific to a wireless DetNet. Once this is done, it should be apparent if there are really two documents here, one for DetNet and one for RAW, or just one for RAW. >> >> To be clear, my view is that this document is not ready for adoption. >> >> From a content perspective you might want to check out https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5860 and reuse some text from there. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Lou >> >> On 3/30/20 6:13 AM, Rick Taylor wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> The authors of: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-01 (have asked for a call for working group adoption of their draft. >>> >>> The link to the draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ >>> >>> This is your opportunity to express your opinion. >>> >>> A decision will be made on/after 13th April. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Rick and Eve >>> Co-chairs >>> From nobody Fri Apr 10 14:01:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34663A0D43 for ; 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bh=qpL6fHlJP5/HeAP19ahndXxtcIlJVpWUz70HQ49gYZg=; b=CDj+jFU0hf3CCoIfk2lLuxYIH0 mHecrp8nkQySmsaPF8p8sMxjyQmsarWUUHduJnxQtHfO1GExARi8m2kG3TbgN02R6cmbJsOUiA7ZH uvrk0lhx9hXsilE0KOUGRF60U; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=55545 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jN0mO-001Vie-A9; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:01:36 -0600 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" , "raw@ietf.org" , Rute Sofia , Janos Farkas References: <158574681247.30890.2068130938683129843@ietfa.amsl.com> <4270f53f-0ef6-8a08-b7a9-7899e689132b@labn.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:01:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1jN0mO-001Vie-A9 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:55545 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:01:48 -0000 Hi Pascal, On 4/7/2020 4:24 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hello Lou > > We did not ask for adoption yet sorry, my mistake.  I was going through Rick's calls and assumed there was a call for adoption on this one too. > and are well aware that the architecture piece is missing. We are composing the framework based on the existing RAW documents since there is a mismatch between the pre-WG work and the chartered work. > > When that is done (soon) we’ll work on the (new) architecture text; in the current shape it is way too early to judge if the document is adoptable or not. Note that some of what you are rightfully asking already exists partially in the 6TiSCH and DetNet architectures, and there will be some fusion work to do. As co author of both I believe it is quite doable. A matter of time... Fair enough - thanks for the response and my apologies for the adoption comment. Lou > > Keep safe! > > Pascal > >> Le 7 avr. 2020 à 21:27, Lou Berger a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> I just (re)red this draft -- I agree that it doesn't seem to be an architecture. It does raise some good points related to requirements and possible tools for a DetNet wireless solution. >> >> The main points I'd look for from a RAW (DetNet over Wireless) architecture, or framework, document are how the Data plane (including OAM) and controller planes at the DetNet Layer interact with those same functions at the Wireless layer. For example, how is a DetNet flow mapped into a wireless track/flow/stream, and how control information from the wireless layer makes it to the DetNet control(ler) plane and how is it used (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5623 provides an example of a generic approach to this). >> >> I think the best way forward for the material in this document is for it to be integrated into other existing a future documents -- and for the WG to not adopt it as a foundation for a RAW architecture document. >> >> Lou >> >>> On 4/2/20 10:53 AM, Rute Sofia wrote: >>> Hello >>> >>> After reading the draft, and being one of the "wireless" as well as "IP people" :), IMO: >>> >>> - this is not an architecture, so the term framework is possibly better. >>> - there would be benefits in merging the content of this draft and the OAM requirements draft. >>> >>> Relevant to the research towards industrial environments (e.g., industrial IoT) is that determinism needs to be addressed both on the MAC and IP layer. Ideally working together. >>> >>> The terminology, namely, reliability and availability, are somewhat confusing...perhaps state that reliability is in this draft defined based on two specific indicators, namely, latency (MTBF) and packet loss (MCF). Similarly to availability, how is a "path" defined here? E2E path? 1 hop? >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Rute Sofia >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>> Sent: 02 April 2020 14:29 >>> To: Janos Farkas >>> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >>> >>> Hello Janos: >>> >>> I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries. >>> >>> I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirement that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is contained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that are specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly extended. >>> >>> If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the beginning of a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF. >>> >>> All in all I believe that the charter makes a lot of sense. >>> >>> Keep safe, >>> >>> Pascal >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Janos Farkas >>>> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10 >>>> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for >>>> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt >>>> >>>> Hi Pascal, >>>> >>>> I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW >>>> charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to >>>> collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use >>>> cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to >>>> solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad >>>> to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the >>>> requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help >>>> seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architecture. >>>> I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but >>>> run with some overlaps. >>>> >>>> >>>> Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/ >>>> " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again: >>>> For/against was maybe 80 vs 20." >>>> where the work items were: >>>> "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless >>>> use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document >>>> 2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that >>>> the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)" >>>> >>>> >>>> As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework >>>> to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most >>>> familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655 >>>> DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to >>>> the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet >>>> Problem Statement. Of course, RFC >>>> 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by >>>> individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a solution at high level. >>>> >>>> The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution." >>>> >>>> So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to >>>> remain in the scope of the charter. >>>> >>>> As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to >>>> my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that >>>> it is good, but it should not specify solution details. >>>> >>>> I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework". >>>> I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two >>>> options for the reasons explained above. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Janos >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RAW On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert >>>> (pthubert) >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM >>>> To: raw@ietf.org >>>> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw- >>>> architecture-00.txt >>>> >>>> Dear all: >>>> >>>> The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match >>>> the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW >>>> charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an >>>> architecture draft but does not require a problem statement. >>>> >>>> Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO >>>> requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I >>>> just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go and solicit early feedback. >>>> Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text. >>>> >>>> Comments welcome! >>>> >>>> Keep safe... >>>> >>>> Pascal >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14 >>>> To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos >>>> ; >>>> Georgios Papadopoulos ; >>>> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >>>> Subject: New Version Notification for >>>> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt >>>> has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the >>>> IETF repository. >>>> >>>> Name: draft-pthubert-raw-architecture >>>> Revision: 00 >>>> Title: Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture >>>> Document date: 2020-04-01 >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 16 >>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw- >>>> architecture-00.txt >>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture/ >>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00 >>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw- >>>> architecture >>>> >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced >>>> multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on >>>> wireless links. The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a >>>> centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the >>>> controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited. RAW >>>> separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is >>>> recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding >>>> decision is taken for an individual packet. RAW operates at the >>>> forwarding time scale. The RAW problem is to decide, within the >>>> redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be >>>> used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while >>>> minimizing the waste of resources. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>> >>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> RAW mailing list >>>> RAW@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >>> -- >>> RAW mailing list >>> RAW@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw >> -- >> RAW mailing list >> RAW@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw From nobody Sat Apr 11 07:03:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990213A12C2 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZ0cpOGYKXKU for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 07:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout02-ext3.partage.renater.fr (smtpout02-ext3.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071C93A12BF for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 07:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [194.254.241.25]) by smtpout20.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B1EBFE3A; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FC94A0111; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70135A010D; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr Received: from zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id V8SuOGpS9DGr; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.94] (unknown [194.254.241.251]) by zmtaauth02.partage.renater.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4DF72A010B; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Fabrice Theoleyre In-Reply-To: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:47 +0200 Cc: "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" , Grek Mirsky Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> To: raw@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:03:56 -0000 Dear all, We just submitted a novel version of the draft: 1/ we addressed the comments of Rex 2/ we addressed the comments of Greg, who is now also an author 3/ we partly addressed the comments of Lou, so that the draft now = focuses only on wireless specificities. Up to now, we modified the = introduction and the abstract, we have to make the same job for the rest = of the draft. We have also to describe more clearly the relationship with OAM for = detnet (Janos' comment) Best regards, Fabrice > Le 11 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 15:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org a =C3=A9crit : >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > Revision: 02 > Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) = features for RAW > Document date: 2020-04-11 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.tx= t > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02 >=20 > Abstract: > Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructure. > However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several orders of > magnitude lower than wired networks. Besides, wireless = transmissions > are lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot be decoded > correctly by the receiver may be quite high. In these conditions, > guaranteeing the network infrastructure works properly is > particularly challenging, since we need to address some issues > specific to wireless networks. This document lists the requirements > of the Operation, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) features > recommended to construct a predictable communication infrastructure > on top of a collection of wireless segments. This document = describes > the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless > networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Apr 11 23:07:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5993A00D3 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:07:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.902 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=uoc.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S7K75tPejVkR for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753583A00C9 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id v8so7771312wma.0 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:07:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uoc.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kEcpRfoNi+zqwOaoKiu5a4BMBK8QS7M580LHwtCH8JU=; b=QgVILMa5zZRiXq96FNbXAZav9MOY+dtJeVlAci392cr5WnuMw8QzOoN7GLCyTFg28X pq8M0K/vgML/owTSyZ8dyT4poNUlSV7vMfMmduJLsRZGCICqYxuY94U7ovNpq/E6tRul pgwq+9qKtAttn8XXqIi90q2ROpeMcakr703Ag= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kEcpRfoNi+zqwOaoKiu5a4BMBK8QS7M580LHwtCH8JU=; b=QehyBDxjbwg7z9nW/uKbxnO8bPrjzWk2JbynZDojSIJNf6ea9e9MmTpeSqydqgl+sI +Xb6S+RjZ0mcTttKYendWHNKHQpoli0RWj2blDJwx85RocFmYksdIFyPLx3K2/GBoFsK fmw7ifXbHh+8ITDvPu/FNRH+/l8fTgd2vIi/MoedGbXOCIDbbmXe/KpPeDe3MocufJjI ifWakmfWMUhx7MXkjdVWbbbmdaR5ja9fvxM7Vd+6zQsG+1pG9klYh//7g0TSA0Tc51vC xZ6S0zAr4hOJABfvF0SOmnQlDZ87XiQApW0/qKFQSByV7dsWb+dOYjjV5/IBEm3EdjA0 ox4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubfJKJL+xroNTN7XyzgUYOUymQ2RFQUOt+0yXXSRemvnyjkuvqs mMTs7sTaUu0iKVizgquGwmKEITpVLp06NTV28o6r8mfFBwJa+C2JT9z8OBNxKRS6lr2i6nbP7yv lhukSVHgls1Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLEDJOCWoRUflOftc6VPMYv0iY+SalRDPQHHkUcbNoUInGA87A1mdcOCVpezvE5wPJhcEtia3s8NEgjMcMxO1E= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7212:: with SMTP id n18mr13439976wmc.53.1586671633717; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:07:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> In-Reply-To: <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> From: Xavi Vilajosana Guillen Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:07:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fabrice Theoleyre Cc: raw@ietf.org, Grek Mirsky , "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a756905a311c761" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:07:23 -0000 --0000000000001a756905a311c761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Fabrice, Georgios and Grek, I am adding comments here to the whole document. See below XV>> kind regards Xavi ----- Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) features for RAW draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02 Abstract Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructure. However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several orders of XV>> typo here. bandwidth magnitude lower than wired networks. Besides, wireless transmissions are lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot be decoded correctly by the receiver may be quite high. In these conditions, guaranteeing the network infrastructure works properly is particularly challenging, since we need to address some issues specific to wireless networks. This document lists the requirements of the Operation, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) features recommended to construct a predictable communication infrastructure on top of a collection of wireless segments. This document describes the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO). Status of This Memo This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." This Internet-Draft will expire on October 13, 2020. Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 1] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 Copyright Notice Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the document authors. All rights reserved. This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of publication of this document. Please review these documents carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as described in the Simplified BSD License. Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1.1. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1.2. Acronyms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1.3. Requirements Language . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2. Role of OAM in RAW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3. Operation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3.1. Information Collection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3.2. Continuity Check . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3.3. Connectivity Verification . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.4. Route Tracing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.5. Fault Verification/detection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.6. Fault Isolation/identification . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4. Administration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.1. Collection of metrics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.2. Worst-case metrics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.3. Energy efficiency constraint . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5. Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5.1. Multipath Routing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5.2. Replication / Elimination . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5.3. Resource Reservation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 5.4. Soft transition after reconfiguration . . . . . . . . . . 10 6. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 7. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 8. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 9. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 2] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 1. Introduction Reliable and Available Wireless (RAW) is an effort that extends DetNet to approach end-to-end deterministic performances over a network that includes scheduled wireless segments. XV>> is that true? what if the network is not scheduled per se but enables through some sort of redundancy to achieve probabilistically some sort of higher levels of reliability? In wired networks, many approaches to Quality of Service (QoS) tried to implement traffic differentiation so that routers handle differently each type of packets. However, this differentiated treatment was expensive for most applications. Deterministic Networking (DetNet) [RFC8655] has proposed to provide a bounded end-to-end latency on top of the network infrastructure, comprising both Layer 2 bridged and Layer 3 routed segments. Their work encompasses the data plane, OAM, time synchronization, management, control, and security aspects. However, wireless networks create specific challenges. First of all, radio bandwdidth is significantly lower than for wired networks. In XV>> typo here bandwidth these conditions, the volume of signaling messages has to be very limited. XV>> well 802.11ax and 802.11be are not that limited. Even worse, wireless links are lossy: a layer 2 transmission may or may not be decoded correctly by the receiver, depending on a large set of parameters. Thus, providing high reliability through only wireless segments only is particularly challenging. XV>> I would remove the second only above. Last but not least, radio links present very unstable characteristics. If the wireless networks use an unlicensed band, packet losses are not anymore temporally and spatially independent. Typically, links may exhibit a very bursty characteristic, where several consecutive packets may be dropped. Thus, providing availability and reliability on top of the wireless infrastructure requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these bursty losses. Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Tools are of primary importance for IP networks [RFC7276]. It defines a toolset for fault detection and isolation, and for performance measurement. The main purpose of this document is to detail the specific requirements of the OAM features recommended to construct a predictable communication infrastructure on top of a collection of wireless segments. This document describes the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless networks to provide availability and predictability. In this document, the term OAM will be used according to its definition specified in [RFC6291]. We expect to implement an OAM framework in RAW networks to maintain a real-time view of the network Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 3] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 infrastructure, and its ability to respect the Service Level Objectives (SLO), such as delay and reliability, assigned to each data flow. XV>> somewhere in the intro: it would be adequate to refer to the use cases draft and point out when OAM is needed with respect to the presented use cases. I think this will facilitate the reader to understand where (in which use cases) these wireless segments are used and how OAM will make our life easier. 1.1. Terminology o OAM entity: a data flow to be controlled; o Maintenance End Point (MEP): OAM devices crossed when entering/ exiting the network. In RAW, it corresponds mostly to the source or destination of a data flow. OAM message can be exchanges between two MEPs; o Maintenance Intermediate end Point (MIP): OAM devices along the flow; OAM messages can be exchanged between a MEP and a MIP; o Defect: a temporary change in the network (e.g. a radio link which is broken due to a mobile obstacle); o Fault: a definite change which may affect the network performance, e.g. a node runs out of energy. 1.2. Acronyms OAM Operations, Administration, and Maintanence XV>>typo here Maintenance DetNet Deterministic Networking SLO Service Level Objective QoS Quality of Service SNMP Simple Network Management Protocol SDN Software Defined Network 1.3. Requirements Language The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all capitals, as shown here. Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 4] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 2. Role of OAM in RAW RAW networks expect to make the communications reliable and predictable on top of a wireless network infrastructure. Most critical applications will define an SLO to be required for the data XV> a SLO instead of an SLO flows it generates. RAW considers network plane protocol elements such as OAM to improve the RAW operation at the service and the forwarding sub-layers. To respect strict guarantees, RAW relies on an orchestrator able to monitor and maintain the network. Typically, a Software Defined Network (SDN) controller is in charge of scheduling the transmissions in the deployed network, based on the radio link characteristics, SLO of the flows, the number of packets to forward. Thus, resources have to be provisioned a priori to handle any defect. OAM represents the core of the over provisioning process, and maintains the network operational by updating the schedule dynamically. XV> this seems to be an L3-like schedule or a path computation engine. If we are orchestrating different joint segments I understand that some of the technologies below will have their own scheduling/traffic management mechanisms and this SDN-like controller defined here will interact with them. Would be good to clarify this maybe with a figure. Fault-tolerance also assumes that multiple paths have to be XV> Paths apply to multihop networks. What if we join segments each one of them being a hub and spoke network? I am thinking in a topology like WiFi_Node -> AP-> 5G/LTE radio provisioned so that an end-to-end circuit keeps on existing whatever the conditions. The replication/elimination processes (PREOF) on a node is typically controlled by the central controller/orchestrator. OAM is in charge of controlling that PREOF is working properly on a node and within the domain. To be energy-efficient, reserving some dedicated out-of-band resources for OAM seems idealistic, XV>> to give more strength to this statement, maybe develop a little bit further why out of band OAM is not possible? and only in-band solutions are considered here. RAW supports both proactive and on-demand troubleshooting. XV>> same here, maybe detail further when proactive and when on-demand is needed or used. 3. Operation OAM features will enable RAW with robust operation both for forwarding and routing purposes. 3.1. Information Collection Several solutions (e.g., Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP), YANG-based data models) are already in charge of collecting the statistics. That way, we can encapsulate these statistics in specific monitoring packets, to send them to the controller. 3.2. Continuity Check We need to verify that two endpoints are connected. In other words, there exists "one" way to deliver the packets between two endpoints A and B. Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 5] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 3.3. Connectivity Verification Additionally, to the Continuity Check, we have to verify the connectivity. This verification considers additional constraints, i.e., the absence of misconnection. In particular, the resources have to be reserved by a given flow, and no packets from other flows steal the corresponding resources. Similarly, the destination does not receive packets from different flows through its interface. It is worth noting that the control and data packets may not follow the same path, and the connectivity verification has to be conducted in-band without impacting the data traffic. Test packets must share the fate with the monitored data traffic without introducing congestion in normal network conditions. 3.4. Route Tracing Ping and traceroute are two very common tools for diagnostic. They help to identify a subset of the list of routers in the route. However, to be predictable, resources are reserved per flow in RAW. Thus, we need to define route tracing tools able to track the route for a specific flow. XV>> question here: we need maybe even after to be able to identify flows. Not sure if this is detailed along this section. just have a thought on this. Wireless networks are meshed by nature: XV> *not true at all*. most LPWAN are not meshed. Most cellular networks are not meshed. most WiFi networks are not meshed. Most BLE networks are not meshed. Some 802.15.4 are meshed. we have many redundant radio links. These meshed networks are both an asset and a drawback: while several paths exist between two endpoints, we should choose the most efficient one(s), concerning specifically the reliability, and the delay. XV>> maybe the point here is to focus on the fact that we have different segments where a segment can be a point to point link, a full mesh or something hybrid. (e.g Wifi station-AP is a point to point link). The point is to understand if we can have redundant segments so as to exploit segment redundancy. Thus, multipath routing can be considered to make the network fault- tolerant. Even better, we can exploit the broadcast nature of wireless networks to exploit meshed multipath routing: we may have multiple Maintenance Intermediate Endpoints for each hop in the path. In that way, each Maintenance Intermediate Endpoint has several possible next hops in the forwarding plane. Thus, all the possible paths between two maintenance endpoints should be retrieved. XV>> as said. This applies to 15.4 perfectly but not sure if it can apply to other technologies. Could we maybe consider this vision from a segment perspective? Each segment may have certain properties to address redundancy (e.g packet repetitions in NB-IoT, MIMO and the use of different modulations in WiFi) 3.5. Fault Verification/detection RAW expects to operate fault-tolerant networks. Thus, we need mechanisms able to detect faults, before they impact the network performance. The network has to detect when a fault occurred, i.e., the network has deviated from its expected behavior. While the network must report an alarm, the cause may not be identified precisely. For Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 6] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 instance, the end-to-end reliability has decreased significantly, or a buffer overflow occurs. 3.6. Fault Isolation/identification The network has isolated and identified the cause of the fault. For instance, the quality of a specific link has decreased, requiring more retransmissions, or the level of external interference has locally increased. 4. Administration The network has to expose a collection of metrics to support an operator making proper decisions, including: o Packet losses: the time-window average and maximum values of the number of packet losses have to be measured. Many critical applications stop to work if a few consecutive packets are dropped; o Received Signal Strength Indicator (RSSI) is a very common metric in wireless to denote the link quality. The radio chipset is in charge of translating a received signal strength into a normalized quality indicator; o Delay: the time elapsed between a packet generation / enqueuing and its reception by the next hop; XV>> maybe also consider segment-delay? i.e the sum of delays in the internals of the segment o Buffer occupancy: the number of packets present in the buffer, for each of the existing flows. These metrics should be collected: o per virtual circuit to measure the end-to-end performance for a given flow. Each of the paths has to be isolated in multipath routing strategies; XV>> this is what I meant before. :) o per radio channel to measure, e.g., the level of external interference, and to be able to apply counter-measures (e.g. blacklisting) o per device to detect misbehaving node, when it relays the packets of several flows. Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 7] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 4.1. Collection of metrics We have to minimize the number of statistics / measurements to exchange: o energy efficiency: low-power devices have to limit the volume of monitoring information since every bit consumes energy. o bandwidth: wireless networks exhibit a bandwidth significantly lower than wired, best-effort networks. o per-packet cost: it is often more expensive to send several packets instead of combining them in a single link-layer frame. Thus, localized and centralized mechanisms have to be combined together, and additional control packets have to be triggered only after a fault detection. 4.2. Worst-case metrics RAW aims to enable real-time communications on top of a heterogeneous architecture. Since wireless networks are known to be lossy, RAW has to implement strategies to improve reliability on top of unreliable links. Hybrid Automatic Repeat reQuest (ARQ) has typically to enable XV>> ...(ARQ) has been typically used to ... retransmissions based on the end-to-end reliability and latency requirements. To make correct decisions, the controller needs to know the distribution of packet losses for each flow, and each hop of the paths. In other words, the average end-to-end statistics are not enough. They must allow the controller to predict the worst-case. 4.3. Energy efficiency constraint RAW targets also low-power wireless networks, where energy represents a key constraint. Thus, we have to take care of power and bandwidth consumption. The following techniques aim to reduce the cost of such maintenance: piggybacking: some control information are inserted in the data packets if they do not fragment the packet (i.e., the MTU is not exceeded). Information Elements represent a standardized way to handle such information; XV>> not sure LDACS and LTE-alike have IEs in their MAC header structure. Cellular technologies have a dedicated control channel while others don't flags/fields: we have to set-up flags in the packets to monitor to XV>> ... to be able to monitor ... remove to monitor (before) be able to monitor the forwarding process accurately. A sequence number field may help to detect packet losses. Similarly, path inference tools such as [ipath] insert additional information in Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 8] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 the headers to identify the path followed by a packet a posteriori. 5. Maintenance RAW needs to implement a self-healing and self-optimization approach. The network must continuously retrieve the state of the network, to judge about the relevance of a reconfiguration, quantifying: the cost of the sub-optimality: resources may not be used optimally (e.g., a better path exists); the reconfiguration cost: the controller needs to trigger some reconfigurations. For this transient period, resources may be twice reserved, and control packets have to be transmitted. Thus, reconfiguration may only be triggered if the gain is significant. 5.1. Multipath Routing To be fault-tolerant, several paths can be reserved between two maintenance endpoints. They must be node-disjoint so that a path can be available at any time. 5.2. Replication / Elimination When multiple paths are reserved between two maintenance endpoints, they may decide to replicate the packets to introduce redundancy, and thus to alleviate transmission errors and collisions. For instance, in Figure 1, the source node S is transmitting the packet to both parents, nodes A and B. Each maintenance endpoint will decide to trigger the replication/elimination process when a set of metrics passes through a threshold value. =3D=3D=3D> (A) =3D> (C) =3D> (E) =3D=3D=3D // \\// \\// \\ source (S) //\\ //\\ (R) (root) \\ // \\ // \\ // =3D=3D=3D> (B) =3D> (D) =3D> (F) =3D=3D=3D Figure 1: Packet Replication: S transmits twice the same data packet, to its DP (A) and to its AP (B). Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 9] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 5.3. Resource Reservation Because the QoS criteria associated with a path may degrade, the network has to provision additional resources along the path. We need to provide mechanisms to patch a schedule (changing the channel offset, allocating more timeslots, changing the path, etc.). XV>> for me this is an interaction with the particular controller of the particular segment. The OAM decision reaches the segment representative and in there a particular segment controller e.g 6tisch SF or WiFi trigger frame controller is notified to do some change in the operation of the segment. 5.4. Soft transition after reconfiguration Since RAW expects to support real-time flows, we have to support soft-reconfiguration, where the novel resources are reserved before the ancient ones are released. Some mechanisms have to be proposed so that packets are forwarded through the novel track only when the resources are ready to be used, while maintaining the global state consistent (no packet reordering, duplication, etc.) 6. IANA Considerations This document has no actionable requirements for IANA. This section can be removed before the publication. 7. Security Considerations This section will be expanded in future versions of the draft. 8. Acknowledgments TBD 9. Informative References [ipath] Gao, Y., Dong, W., Chen, C., Bu, J., Wu, W., and X. Liu, "iPath: path inference in wireless sensor networks.", 2016, . [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997, . [RFC6291] Andersson, L., van Helvoort, H., Bonica, R., Romascanu, D., and S. Mansfield, "Guidelines for the Use of the "OAM" Acronym in the IETF", BCP 161, RFC 6291, DOI 10.17487/RFC6291, June 2011, . Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 10] Internet-Draft OAM features for RAW April 2020 [RFC7276] Mizrahi, T., Sprecher, N., Bellagamba, E., and Y. Weingarten, "An Overview of Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Tools", RFC 7276, DOI 10.17487/RFC7276, June 2014, . [RFC8174] Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 10.17487/RFC8174, May 2017, . [RFC8655] Finn, N., Thubert, P., Varga, B., and J. Farkas, "Deterministic Networking Architecture", RFC 8655, DOI 10.17487/RFC8655, October 2019, . Authors' Addresses Fabrice Theoleyre CNRS Building B 300 boulevard Sebastien Brant - CS 10413 Illkirch - Strasbourg 67400 FRANCE Phone: +33 368 85 45 33 Email: theoleyre@unistra.fr URI: http://www.theoleyre.eu Georgios Z. Papadopoulos IMT Atlantique Office B00 - 102A 2 Rue de la Chataigneraie Cesson-Sevigne - Rennes 35510 FRANCE Phone: +33 299 12 70 04 Email: georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr Grek Mirsky ZTE Corp. Email: gregimirsky@gmail.com Theoleyre, et al. Expires October 13, 2020 [Page 11] Missatge de Fabrice Theoleyre del dia ds., 11 d=E2= =80=99abr. 2020 a les 16:03: > Dear all, > > We just submitted a novel version of the draft: > 1/ we addressed the comments of Rex > 2/ we addressed the comments of Greg, who is now also an author > 3/ we partly addressed the comments of Lou, so that the draft now focuses > only on wireless specificities. Up to now, we modified the introduction a= nd > the abstract, we have to make the same job for the rest of the draft. > > We have also to describe more clearly the relationship with OAM for detne= t > (Janos' comment) > > Best regards, > Fabrice > > > > Le 11 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 15:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org a =C3=A9crit : > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > > Revision: 02 > > Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) > features for RAW > > Document date: 2020-04-11 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 11 > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.t= xt > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support/ > > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02 > > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02 > > > > Abstract: > > Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructure. > > However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several orders of > > magnitude lower than wired networks. Besides, wireless transmissions > > are lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot be decoded > > correctly by the receiver may be quite high. In these conditions, > > guaranteeing the network infrastructure works properly is > > particularly challenging, since we need to address some issues > > specific to wireless networks. This document lists the requirements > > of the Operation, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) features > > recommended to construct a predictable communication infrastructure > > on top of a collection of wireless segments. This document describes > > the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless > > networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO). > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > --=20 Dr. Xavier Vilajosana Wireless Networks Lab *Internet Interdisciplinary Institute (IN3)Professor* (+34) 646 633 681 xvilajosana@uoc.edu http://xvilajosana.org http://wine.rdi.uoc.edu Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia Av Carl Friedrich Gauss 5, B3 Building 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona). Catalonia. Spain [image: Universitat Oberta de Catalunya] =C2=AD --=20 INFORMACI=C3=93 SOBRE PROTECCI=C3=93 DE DADES DE LA UNIVERSITAT OBERTA DE= =20 CATALUNYA (UOC) Us informem que les vostres dades identificatives i les=20 contingudes en els missatges electr=C3=B2nics i fitxers adjunts es poden=20 incorporar a les nostres bases de dades amb la finalitat de gestionar les= =20 relacions i comunicacions vinculades a la UOC, i que es poden conservar=20 mentre es mantingui la relaci=C3=B3. Si ho voleu, podeu exercir el dret a= =20 accedir a les vostres dades, rectificar-les i suprimir-les i altres drets= =20 reconeguts normativament adre=C3=A7ant-vos a l'adre=C3=A7a de correu emisso= ra o a=20 fuoc_pd@uoc.edu . Aquest missatge i qualsevol=20 fitxer que porti adjunt, si escau, tenen el car=C3=A0cter de confidencials = i=20 s'adrecen =C3=BAnicament a la persona o entitat a qui s'han enviat. Aix=C3=AD=20 mateix, posem a la vostra disposici=C3=B3 un delegat de protecci=C3=B3 de d= ades que=20 no nom=C3=A9s s'encarregar=C3=A0 de supervisar tots els tractaments de dade= s de la=20 nostra entitat, sin=C3=B3 que us podr=C3=A0 atendre per a qualsevol q=C3=BC= esti=C3=B3=20 relacionada amb el tractament de dades. La seva adre=C3=A7a de contacte =C3= =A9s=20 dpd@uoc.edu . INFORMACI=C3=93N SOBRE PROTECCI=C3=93N DE DATOS DE=20 LA UNIVERSITAT OBERTA DE CATALUNYA (UOC) Os informamos de que vuestros=20 datos identificativos y los contenidos en los mensajes electr=C3=B3nicos y= =20 ficheros adjuntos pueden incorporarse a nuestras bases de datos con el fin= =20 de gestionar las relaciones y comunicaciones vinculadas a la UOC, y de que= =20 pueden conservarse mientras se mantenga la relaci=C3=B3n. Si lo dese=C3=A1i= s, pod=C3=A9is=20 ejercer el derecho a acceder a vuestros datos, rectificarlos y suprimirlos= =20 y otros derechos reconocidos normativamente dirigi=C3=A9ndoos a la direcci= =C3=B3n de=20 correo emisora o a fuoc_pd@uoc.edu . Este mensaje y=20 cualquier fichero que lleve adjunto, si procede, tienen el car=C3=A1cter de= =20 confidenciales y se dirigen =C3=BAnicamente a la persona o entidad a quien = se=20 han enviado. As=C3=AD mismo, ponemos a vuestra disposici=C3=B3n a un delegado de=20 protecci=C3=B3n de datos que no solo se encargar=C3=A1 de supervisar todos = los=20 tratamientos de datos de nuestra entidad, sino que podr=C3=A1 atenderos par= a=20 cualquier cuesti=C3=B3n relacionada con el tratamiento de datos. Su direcci= =C3=B3n de=20 contacto es dpd@uoc.edu . UNIVERSITAT OBERTA DE=20 CATALUNYA (UOC) DATA PROTECTION=C2=A0INFORMATION Your personal data and the data=20 contained in your email messages and attached files may be=C2=A0stored in o= ur=20 databases for the purpose of maintaining relations and communications=20 linked to=C2=A0the UOC, and the data may be stored for as long as these=20 relations and communications are=C2=A0maintained. If you so wish, you can= =20 exercise your rights to access, rectification and erasure of=C2=A0your data= , and=20 any other legally held rights, by writing to the sender=E2=80=99s email add= ress or=20 to=C2=A0fuoc_pd@uoc.edu . This message and, where=20 applicable, any attachments are confidential and addressed solely to=C2=A0t= he=20 individual or organization they were sent to. The UOC has a data protection=20 officer who not only supervises the data processing carried out=C2=A0at the= =20 University, but who will also respond to any questions you may have about= =20 this data=C2=A0processing. You can contact our data protection officer by= =20 writing to dpd@uoc.edu . --0000000000001a756905a311c761 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Fabrice, Georgios and Grek,

I am a= dding comments here to the whole document. See below XV>>=C2=A0
=

kind regards
Xavi
-----
<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) features f= or RAW
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02

Abstract

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructure.
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several orders of<= div>XV>> typo here. bandwidth
=C2=A0 =C2=A0magnitude lower th= an wired networks.=C2=A0 Besides, wireless transmissions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ar= e lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot be decoded
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0correctly by the receiver may be quite high.=C2=A0 In these condi= tions,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0guaranteeing the network infrastructure works proper= ly is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0particularly challenging, since we need to address so= me issues
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific to wireless networks.=C2=A0 This documen= t lists the requirements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the Operation, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) features
=C2=A0 =C2=A0recommended to construct a p= redictable communication infrastructure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0on top of a collect= ion of wireless segments.=C2=A0 This document describes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the= benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO).

Status of Thi= s Memo

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conform= ance with the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Task Force (IETF).=C2=A0 Note that other groups may also d= istribute
=C2=A0 =C2=A0working documents as Internet-Drafts.=C2=A0 The l= ist of current Internet-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/cur= rent/.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid fo= r a maximum of six months
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and may be updated, replaced, or = obsoleted by other documents at any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0time.=C2=A0 It is inapp= ropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
=C2=A0 =C2=A0material or to= cite them other than as "work in progress."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= This Internet-Draft will expire on October 13, 2020.






Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13, 2020 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page 1]
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I= nternet-Draft =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM features for RAW= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0April 2020

<= br>Copyright Notice

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and t= he persons identified as the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0document authors.=C2=A0 All ri= ghts reserved.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is subject to BCP 78 and t= he IETF Trust's Legal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Provisions Relating to IETF Docum= ents
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(htt= ps://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0publication of this document.=C2=A0 Please review these documents
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with = respect
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to this document.=C2=A0 Code Components extracted f= rom this document must
=C2=A0 =C2=A0include Simplified BSD License text = as described in Section 4.e of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Trust Legal Provisions a= nd are provided without warranty as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in the Simpli= fied BSD License.

Table of Contents

=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0 Int= roduction =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 3=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.1.=C2=A0 Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . =C2=A0 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.2.=C2=A0 Acronyms =C2=A0. = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A01.3.=C2=A0 Requirements Language . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2= =A0 4
=C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 Role of OAM in RAW =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 5
=C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Operation . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 5
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A03.1.=C2=A0 Information Collection =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . =C2=A0 5
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.2.=C2=A0 Continuity Check =C2=A0. . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 5
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.3.=C2=A0= Connectivity Verification . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 6
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.4.=C2=A0 Route Tracing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . =C2=A0 6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.5.=C2=A0 Fault Verification/de= tection =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03= .6.=C2=A0 Fault Isolation/identification =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . = =C2=A0 7
=C2=A0 =C2=A04.=C2=A0 Administration =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 7
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.=C2=A0 Collec= tion of metrics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 8
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A04.2.=C2=A0 Worst-case metrics =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . =C2=A0 8
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.3.=C2=A0 Energy efficiency const= raint =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 8
=C2=A0 =C2=A05.=C2=A0 M= aintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 9
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05.1.=C2=A0 Multipath Routing . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . =C2=A0 9
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05.2.=C2=A0 Replication / Elim= ination . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A0 9
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05.3= .=C2=A0 Resource Reservation =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2= =A010
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05.4.=C2=A0 Soft transition after reconfigurati= on . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A010
=C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0 IANA Consideration= s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A010
=C2=A0 =C2=A07.=C2= =A0 Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A010<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A08.=C2=A0 Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . =C2=A010
=C2=A0 =C2=A09.=C2=A0 Informative References =C2=A0= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A010
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors'= Addresses =C2=A0. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . =C2=A011
=







Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expi= res October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0[Page 2]
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1.=C2=A0 Introduction

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Relia= ble and Available Wireless (RAW) is an effort that extends
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= DetNet to approach end-to-end deterministic performances over a
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0network that includes scheduled wireless segments.
XV>> is = that true? what if the network is not scheduled per se but enables through =
some sort of redundancy to achieve probabilistically some sort of highe= r levels of
reliability?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In wired
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ne= tworks, many approaches to Quality of Service (QoS) tried to
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0implement traffic differentiation so that routers handle differently
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0each type of packets.=C2=A0 However, this differentiated treat= ment was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expensive for most applications.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Deterministic Networking (DetNet) [RFC8655] has proposed to provide a=C2=A0 =C2=A0bounded end-to-end latency on top of the network infrastructu= re,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0comprising both Layer 2 bridged and Layer 3 routed segm= ents.=C2=A0 Their
=C2=A0 =C2=A0work encompasses the data plane, OAM, tim= e synchronization,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0management, control, and security aspect= s.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0However, wireless networks create specific challenge= s.=C2=A0 First of all,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0radio bandwdidth is significantly lo= wer than for wired networks.=C2=A0 In
XV>> typo here bandwi= dth
=C2=A0 =C2=A0these conditions, the volume of signaling messages has = to be very
=C2=A0 =C2=A0limited.

XV>> well 802.11ax and 80= 2.11be are not that limited.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even worse, wireless links= are lossy: a layer 2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transmission may or may not be decode= d correctly by the receiver,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depending on a large set of pa= rameters.=C2=A0 Thus, providing high
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reliability through on= ly wireless segments only is particularly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0challenging.
= =C2=A0
XV>> I would remove the second only above.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Last but not least, radio links present very unstable
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0characteristics.=C2=A0 If the wireless networks use an unlicensed band,<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet losses are not anymore temporally and spatially inde= pendent.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Typically, links may exhibit a very bursty charact= eristic, where
=C2=A0 =C2=A0several consecutive packets may be dropped.= =C2=A0 Thus, providing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0availability and reliability on top = of the wireless infrastructure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0requires specific layer 3 me= chanisms to counteract these bursty
=C2=A0 =C2=A0losses.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Tools are of
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0primary importance for IP networks [RFC7276].=C2=A0 It defines a = toolset
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for fault detection and isolation, and for performa= nce measurement.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The main purpose of this document is t= o detail the specific
=C2=A0 =C2=A0requirements of the OAM features reco= mmended to construct a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0predictable communication infrastruc= ture on top of a collection of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0wireless segments.=C2=A0 Thi= s document describes the benefits, problems,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and trade-offs= for using OAM in wireless networks to provide
=C2=A0 =C2=A0availability= and predictability.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this document, the term OAM wil= l be used according to its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0definition specified in [RFC6291= ].=C2=A0 We expect to implement an OAM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0framework in RAW net= works to maintain a real-time view of the network



Theoleyre,= et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page 3]
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0infra= structure, and its ability to respect the Service Level
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Obj= ectives (SLO), such as delay and reliability, assigned to each
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0data flow.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
XV>> somewhere in the intro: it = would =C2=A0be adequate to refer to the use cases draft and point out when =
OAM is needed with respect to the presented use cases. I think this wil= l facilitate the
reader to understand where (in which use cases) these = wireless segments are
used and how OAM will make our life easier. =C2=A0= =C2=A0

1.1.=C2=A0 Terminology

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0OAM enti= ty: a data flow to be controlled;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Maintenance E= nd Point (MEP): OAM devices crossed when entering/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = exiting the network.=C2=A0 In RAW, it corresponds mostly to the source
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or destination of a data flow.=C2=A0 OAM message can b= e exchanges
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between two MEPs;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o= =C2=A0Maintenance Intermediate end Point (MIP): OAM devices along the
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flow; OAM messages can be exchanged between a MEP and = a MIP;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Defect: a temporary change in the networ= k (e.g. a radio link which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is broken due to a mobil= e obstacle);

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Fault: a definite change which may= affect the network performance,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g. a node runs o= ut of energy.

1.2.=C2=A0 Acronyms

=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM Operations= , Administration, and Maintanence
XV>>typo here Maintenance= =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0DetNet Deterministic Networking

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0SLO Service Level Objective

=C2=A0 =C2=A0QoS Quality of Servic= e

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SNMP Simple Network Management Protocol

=C2=A0= =C2=A0SDN Software Defined Network

1.3.=C2=A0 Requirements Language=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", = "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", = "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"OPT= IONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP
= =C2=A0 =C2=A014 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0capitals, as shown here.







Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page 4]
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2.= =C2=A0 Role of OAM in RAW

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW networks expect to make t= he communications reliable and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0predictable on top of a wire= less network infrastructure.=C2=A0 Most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0critical applicatio= ns will define an SLO to be required for the data

XV> a SLO inste= ad of an SLO

=C2=A0 =C2=A0flows it generates.=C2=A0 RAW considers ne= twork plane protocol elements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as OAM to improve the RA= W operation at the service and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding sub-layers.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0To respect strict guarantees, RAW relies on an orchestra= tor able to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0monitor and maintain the network.=C2=A0 Typical= ly, a Software Defined
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Network (SDN) controller is in charg= e of scheduling the transmissions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the deployed network, = based on the radio link characteristics, SLO
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the flows, = the number of packets to forward.=C2=A0 Thus, resources have
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0to be provisioned a priori to handle any defect.=C2=A0 OAM represents th= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0core of the over provisioning process, and maintains the = network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0operational by updating the schedule dynamically.XV> this seems to be an L3-like schedule or a path computation engine.= If we are
orchestrating different joint segments I understand that som= e of the technologies
below will have their own scheduling/traffic mana= gement mechanisms and this SDN-like
controller defined here will interac= t with them. Would be good to clarify this maybe
with a figure.

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fault-tolerance also assumes that multiple paths have to beXV> Paths apply to multihop networks. What if we join segments each one= of them
being a hub and spoke network?
I am thinking in a topology = like WiFi_Node -> AP-> 5G/LTE radio

=C2=A0 =C2=A0provisioned s= o that an end-to-end circuit keeps on existing whatever
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the= conditions.=C2=A0 The replication/elimination processes (PREOF) on a
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0node is typically controlled by the central controller/orchest= rator.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM is in charge of controlling that PREOF is workin= g properly on a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0node and within the domain.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0To be energy-efficient, reserving some dedicated out-of-band
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0resources for OAM seems idealistic,
XV>> to give more s= trength to this statement, maybe develop a little bit further
why out of= band OAM is not possible? =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and only in-band solutio= ns are considered here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW supports both proactive and= on-demand troubleshooting.
XV>> same here, maybe detail further w= hen proactive and when on-demand is needed
or used.

3.=C2=A0 Ope= ration

=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM features will enable RAW with robust operati= on both for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding and routing purposes.

3.1.=C2= =A0 Information Collection

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Several solutions (e.g., Sim= ple Network Management Protocol (SNMP),
=C2=A0 =C2=A0YANG-based data mod= els) are already in charge of collecting the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0statistics.=C2= =A0 That way, we can encapsulate these statistics in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specif= ic monitoring packets, to send them to the controller.

3.2.=C2=A0 Co= ntinuity Check

=C2=A0 =C2=A0We need to verify that two endpoints are= connected.=C2=A0 In other words,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0there exists "one&qu= ot; way to deliver the packets between two endpoints A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and = B.



Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13= , 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page 5]
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3.3.=C2=A0 Connectivity Verification

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Additio= nally, to the Continuity Check, we have to verify the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0conne= ctivity.=C2=A0 This verification considers additional constraints,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0i.e., the absence of misconnection.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In partic= ular, the resources have to be reserved by a given flow, and
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0no packets from other flows steal the corresponding resources.
=C2=A0= =C2=A0Similarly, the destination does not receive packets from different=C2=A0 =C2=A0flows through its interface.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is worth= noting that the control and data packets may not follow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0th= e same path, and the connectivity verification has to be conducted
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0in-band without impacting the data traffic.=C2=A0 Test packets mu= st share
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the fate with the monitored data traffic without i= ntroducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0congestion in normal network conditions.

= 3.4.=C2=A0 Route Tracing

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ping and traceroute are two ve= ry common tools for diagnostic.=C2=A0 They
=C2=A0 =C2=A0help to identify= a subset of the list of routers in the route.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0However, to = be predictable, resources are reserved per flow in RAW.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thu= s, we need to define route tracing tools able to track the route
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0for a specific flow.

=C2=A0XV>> question here: we need m= aybe even after to be able to identify flows.
=C2=A0Not sure if this is= detailed along this section. just have a thought on this.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Wireless networks are meshed by nature:
XV> not true at all<= /b>. most LPWAN are not meshed. Most cellular networks are not meshed.
m= ost WiFi networks are not meshed. Most BLE networks are not meshed. Some 80= 2.15.4 are meshed.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0we have many redundant radio
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0links.=C2=A0 These meshed networks are both an asset and a drawba= ck: while
=C2=A0 =C2=A0several paths exist between two endpoints, we sho= uld choose the most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0efficient one(s), concerning specifical= ly the reliability, and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0delay.

XV>> maybe = the point here is to focus on the fact that we have different segments wher= e a
segment can be a point to point link, a full mesh or something hybr= id.
(e.g Wifi station-AP is a point to point link). The point is to und= erstand if we can have
redundant segments so as to exploit segment redu= ndancy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thus, multipath routin= g can be considered to make the network fault-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tolerant.=C2= =A0 Even better, we can exploit the broadcast nature of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0wir= eless networks to exploit meshed multipath routing: we may have
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0multiple Maintenance Intermediate Endpoints for each hop in the path.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In that way, each Maintenance Intermediate Endpoint has se= veral
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible next hops in the forwarding plane.=C2=A0 Thu= s, all the possible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0paths between two maintenance endpoints= should be retrieved.
XV>> as said. This applies to 15.4 perfectly= but not sure if it can apply to other technologies.
Could we maybe cons= ider this vision from a segment perspective? Each segment may have certain<= br>properties to address redundancy (e.g packet repetitions in NB-IoT, MIMO= and the use of different modulations in WiFi)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
3.5.=C2= =A0 Fault Verification/detection

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW expects to operate= fault-tolerant networks.=C2=A0 Thus, we need
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms ab= le to detect faults, before they impact the network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform= ance.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The network has to detect when a fault occurred, = i.e., the network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0has deviated from its expected behavior.= =C2=A0 While the network must
=C2=A0 =C2=A0report an alarm, the cause ma= y not be identified precisely.=C2=A0 For



Theoleyre, et al. = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page 6]
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0instance, th= e end-to-end reliability has decreased significantly, or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a = buffer overflow occurs.

3.6.=C2=A0 Fault Isolation/identification
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The network has isolated and identified the cause of the = fault.=C2=A0 For
=C2=A0 =C2=A0instance, the quality of a specific link h= as decreased, requiring
=C2=A0 =C2=A0more retransmissions, or the level = of external interference has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0locally increased.

4.= =C2=A0 Administration

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The network has to expose a colle= ction of metrics to support an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0operator making proper decis= ions, including:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Packet losses: the time-window= average and maximum values of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of packet= losses have to be measured.=C2=A0 Many critical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ap= plications stop to work if a few consecutive packets are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 dropped;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Received Signal Strength Indica= tor (RSSI) is a very common metric
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in wireless to d= enote the link quality.=C2=A0 The radio chipset is in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 charge of translating a received signal strength into a normalized
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 quality indicator;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Delay: = the time elapsed between a packet generation / enqueuing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 and its reception by the next hop;
=C2=A0XV>> maybe also co= nsider segment-delay? i.e the sum of delays in the internals of the segment=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0Buffer occupancy: the number of packets presen= t in the buffer, for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 each of the existing flows.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0These metrics should be collected:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o = =C2=A0per virtual circuit to measure the end-to-end performance for a
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 given flow.=C2=A0 Each of the paths has to be isolated= in multipath
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 routing strategies;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0
XV>> this is what I meant before. :) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0per radio channel to measure, e.g., the level o= f external
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 interference, and to be able to apply co= unter-measures (e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 blacklisting)

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0o =C2=A0per device to detect misbehaving node, when it relays the pac= kets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of several flows.






<= br>
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4.1.=C2=A0 Collection of metrics

=C2=A0 =C2=A0We have to minimize = the number of statistics / measurements to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0energy efficiency: low-power devices have to limit th= e volume of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 monitoring information since every bit = consumes energy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0bandwidth: wireless networks e= xhibit a bandwidth significantly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lower than wired, = best-effort networks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0per-packet cost: it is of= ten more expensive to send several
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets instead = of combining them in a single link-layer frame.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thus, l= ocalized and centralized mechanisms have to be combined
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tog= ether, and additional control packets have to be triggered only
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0after a fault detection.

4.2.=C2=A0 Worst-case metrics

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW aims to enable real-time communications on top of a hetero= geneous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0architecture.=C2=A0 Since wireless networks are kno= wn to be lossy, RAW has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to implement strategies to improve = reliability on top of unreliable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0links.=C2=A0 Hybrid Automa= tic Repeat reQuest (ARQ) has typically to enable
XV>> ...(ARQ) has= been typically used to ... =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0retran= smissions based on the end-to-end reliability and latency
=C2=A0 =C2=A0r= equirements.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0To make correct decisions, the controller = needs to know the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0distribution of packet losses for each fl= ow, and each hop of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0paths.=C2=A0 In other words, the av= erage end-to-end statistics are not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enough.=C2=A0 They must= allow the controller to predict the worst-case.

4.3.=C2=A0 Energy e= fficiency constraint

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW targets also low-power wireles= s networks, where energy represents
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a key constraint.=C2=A0= Thus, we have to take care of power and bandwidth
=C2=A0 =C2=A0consumpt= ion.=C2=A0 The following techniques aim to reduce the cost of such
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0maintenance:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 piggybacking: some contr= ol information are inserted in the data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets if = they do not fragment the packet (i.e., the MTU is not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 exceeded).=C2=A0 Information Elements represent a standardized way to=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 handle such information;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 XV>> not sure LDACS and LTE-alike have IEs in their MAC header stru= cture.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Cellular technologies have a dedicated control chan= nel while others don't

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flags/fields: we ha= ve to set-up flags in the packets to monitor to
XV>> ... to be abl= e to monitor ... remove to monitor (before) =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = be able to monitor the forwarding process accurately.=C2=A0 A sequence
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 number field may help to detect packet losses.=C2=A0 S= imilarly, path
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 inference tools such as [ipath] inse= rt additional information in



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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the headers to ide= ntify the path followed by a packet a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 posteriori.
5.=C2=A0 Maintenance

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RAW needs to implement a sel= f-healing and self-optimization approach.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The network must = continuously retrieve the state of the network, to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0judge ab= out the relevance of a reconfiguration, quantifying:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 the cost of the sub-optimality: resources may not be used
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optimally (e.g., a better path exists);

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 the reconfiguration cost: the controller needs to trigger some
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reconfigurations.=C2=A0 For this transient period, res= ources may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 twice reserved, and control packets h= ave to be transmitted.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thus, reconfiguration may only b= e triggered if the gain is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0significant.

5.1.=C2=A0 M= ultipath Routing

=C2=A0 =C2=A0To be fault-tolerant, several paths ca= n be reserved between two
=C2=A0 =C2=A0maintenance endpoints.=C2=A0 They= must be node-disjoint so that a path can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be available at a= ny time.

5.2.=C2=A0 Replication / Elimination

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Wh= en multiple paths are reserved between two maintenance endpoints,
=C2=A0= =C2=A0they may decide to replicate the packets to introduce redundancy, an= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thus to alleviate transmission errors and collisions.=C2= =A0 For instance,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in Figure 1, the source node S is transmi= tting the packet to both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0parents, nodes A and B.=C2=A0 Each= maintenance endpoint will decide to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0trigger the replicatio= n/elimination process when a set of metrics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0passes through = a threshold value.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =3D=3D=3D> (A) =3D> (C)= =3D> (E) =3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\\// =C2= =A0 \\// =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \\
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 source (S) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0//\\ =C2=A0 //\\ = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (R) (root)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 // =C2=A0\\ // =C2=A0\\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0//
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =3D= =3D=3D> (B) =3D> (D) =3D> (F) =3D=3D=3D


=C2=A0 =C2=A0Fi= gure 1: Packet Replication: S transmits twice the same data packet,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to= its DP (A) and to its AP (B).



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5.3.=C2=A0 Resource Reservation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because the QoS criteria associated with a path may degr= ade, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network has to provision additional resources alon= g the path.=C2=A0 We
=C2=A0 =C2=A0need to provide mechanisms to patch a = schedule (changing the channel
=C2=A0 =C2=A0offset, allocating more time= slots, changing the path, etc.).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
XV>> for me this= is an interaction with the particular controller of the
particular seg= ment. The OAM decision reaches the segment representative and in
there = a particular segment controller e.g 6tisch SF or WiFi trigger frame control= ler
is notified to do some change in the operation of the segment. =C2= =A0

5.4.=C2=A0 Soft transition after reconfiguration

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Since RAW expects to support real-time flows, we have to support
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0soft-reconfiguration, where the novel resources are reserved b= efore
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the ancient ones are released.=C2=A0 Some mechanisms = have to be proposed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0so that packets are forwarded through t= he novel track only when the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resources are ready to be used= , while maintaining the global state
=C2=A0 =C2=A0consistent (no packet = reordering, duplication, etc.)

6.=C2=A0 IANA Considerations

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document has no actionable requirements for IANA.=C2=A0 T= his section
=C2=A0 =C2=A0can be removed before the publication.

7= .=C2=A0 Security Considerations

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This section will be ex= panded in future versions of the draft.

8.=C2=A0 Acknowledgments
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TBD

9.=C2=A0 Informative References

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0[ipath] =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gao, Y., Dong, W., Chen, C., Bu, J., Wu, W., and= X. Liu,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "iPath: p= ath inference in wireless sensor networks.",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2016, <https://doi.org/10.1109/TNET.2014.2371459>.

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC2119] =C2=A0Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs t= o Indicate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Requirement = Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2119>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RF= C6291] =C2=A0Andersson, L., van Helvoort, H., Bonica, R., Romascanu,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 D., and S. Mansfield, "G= uidelines for the Use of the "OAM"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Acronym in the IETF", BCP 161, RFC 6291,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOI 10.17487/RFC6291, June 20= 11,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc629= 1>.






Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Expires October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 [Page 10]
=0C
Internet-Draft =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0OAM features for RAW =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0April 2020


=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7276] =C2=A0Mizrahi, T., Spre= cher, N., Bellagamba, E., and Y.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Weingarten, "An Overview of Operations, Administration,
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and Maintenance (OAM) Tool= s", RFC 7276,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOI = 10.17487/RFC7276, June 2014,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 <https://www.= rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7276>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8174] =C2=A0Le= iba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, = DOI 10.17487/RFC8174,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 M= ay 2017, <https://ww= w.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8174>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8655] =C2=A0= Finn, N., Thubert, P., Varga, B., and J. Farkas,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Deterministic Networking Architecture&quo= t;, RFC 8655,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DOI 10.17= 487/RFC8655, October 2019,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 <https://www.rfc= -editor.org/info/rfc8655>.

Authors' Addresses

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Fabrice Theoleyre
=C2=A0 =C2=A0CNRS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Building B=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0300 boulevard Sebastien Brant - CS 10413
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I= llkirch - Strasbourg =C2=A067400
=C2=A0 =C2=A0FRANCE

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Phone: +33 368 85 45 33
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Email: theoleyre@unistra.fr
=C2=A0 =C2=A0URI: =C2=A0 http://www.theoleyre.eu


=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IMT Atlantique
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Office B00 - 102A
=C2=A0 =C2=A02 Rue de la Chataigneraie
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Cesson-Sevigne - Rennes =C2=A035510
=C2=A0 =C2=A0FRANCE

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Phone: +33 299 12 70 04
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Email: georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantiq= ue.fr


=C2=A0 =C2=A0Grek Mirsky
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ZTE Corp.
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Email: gregimirsk= y@gmail.com







Theoleyre, et al. =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Expires October 13, 2020 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 [Page 11]

Missatge de Fabrice Theoleyre <= ;theoleyre@unistra.fr> del d= ia ds., 11 d=E2=80=99abr. 2020 a les 16:03:
Dear all,

We just submitted a novel version of the draft:
1/ we addressed the comments of Rex
2/ we addressed the comments of Greg, who is now also an author
3/ we partly addressed the comments of Lou, so that the draft now focuses o= nly on wireless specificities. Up to now, we modified the introduction and = the abstract, we have to make the same job for the rest of the draft.

We have also to describe more clearly the relationship with OAM for detnet = (Janos' comment)

Best regards,
Fabrice


> Le 11 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 15:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to the=
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support=
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A002
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Operatio= ns, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) features for RAW
> Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2020-04-11
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individu= al Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theole= yre-raw-oam-support-02.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-suppor= t/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-s= upport
> Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-theoleyre-ra= w-oam-support-02
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructu= re.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several= orders of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0magnitude lower than wired networks.=C2=A0 Besides, wirele= ss transmissions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot = be decoded
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0correctly by the receiver may be quite high.=C2=A0 In thes= e conditions,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0guaranteeing the network infrastructure works properly is<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0particularly challenging, since we need to address some is= sues
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific to wireless networks.=C2=A0 This document lists t= he requirements
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the Operation, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) fe= atures
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0recommended to construct a predictable communication infra= structure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0on top of a collection of wireless segments.=C2=A0 This do= cument describes
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wi= reless
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO).
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>

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--0000000000001a756905a311c761-- From nobody Sun Apr 12 21:46:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214CE3A0E49 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3MWMIIsaTwBl for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C54CD3A0E4A for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id k15so4023604pfh.6 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SK7NfqcLPV+BaL71BSoam/kVkKZrZAG5NkTGELCvpGs=; b=Ag6xKm+JMAyR3BruSErMshFORcuS0dk6piNq/SHb+811yXtAAW568nLBM/B/C9L/Bz XapO2xzzOKaI0rWKXLL4yM+k1LBc/hBeyCcNAzzDxfeBEQpgUe7nveJfDhbEW7DQfHKd EhUEUCaylLifX75esevmX+LxO8Qtq7ecdeUSXnwgH+V2jcnYhARL9DJZM2WLugzJyms/ kRH/EP7OlQlf+d+j1ACcs/1lcTnnWQJ76WsGIw1iOKoiIrJazFKSzzuil1hkIL0LE6k4 5+Pr7M5KPChGQzoR1PWYkHWr9DRW4O6IMLx7szTg8ykwBQYQk3gH/8dFQS1FS9HScdQO 9zyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SK7NfqcLPV+BaL71BSoam/kVkKZrZAG5NkTGELCvpGs=; b=QYkbFHpiLaBrNZ5oQtr1JYhyEkgEnJBNFR7wHfXBw/sEowrhWWn3QDPlcjclqrSr+j Tve7aKaF3C3+92p9BWM4yY8qahjO822exViexKIc9hZM29VW1pztWOEDiaSl8j7uRlgX yWpPoj8TRkW74g5y1Ly7tmSxY0o4WrMXJIwSJ1Alplj28Q7OGi7Rdhe5rgIgRV63iAFw gBQOuMVgCdiZwD87WSF5FzAVHgGKpB4UeLKtCrkTUidEXaoYowG3MKYdKvlSKYKuVUs3 47x6lNaqTZVzl7r/4xq/P0pv3zZVcsJpf4kCz1PN+aUUr1gWr7g1mGR4N91xkUpMjBc9 Kmsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY+ghppla9DwWOEKUtvgf0RPHGwsag+BXyHl0TIGx7G9LyE3kmW LyABbSE3GsoOf7G37CrcOzD070w5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJqn8HVJGfcF0eqDnVX6Xd2+FqOhELg7JJVnFs7hBvWzKMP/sITMa9zhtO31+pmD8SXjlRtxA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4e21:: with SMTP id c33mr16235245pgb.305.1586753173637; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (c-73-241-197-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.241.197.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e7sm689763pgt.63.2020.04.12.21.46.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1586753172.2208.35.camel@gmail.com> From: Rex Buddenberg To: Fabrice Theoleyre , raw@ietf.org Cc: Grek Mirsky , "Georgios Z. Papadopoulos" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:46:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.2 (3.18.5.2-1.fc23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:46:52 -0000 Fabrice, Comments: In 1. Introduction > Thus, providing >    availability and reliability on top of the wireless infrastructure >    requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these bursty >    losses. Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms (e.g. TCP) were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty losses.   The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer 1 utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my experience in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit bandwidth- expensive. > > 1.2.  Acronyms > >   >    QoS Quality of Service Is this to mean quality of service measured or quality of service control?  Usually qos means the former; QoS control the latter. Suggest adding FEC to acronym list. > 7.  Security Considerations The control traffic (e.g. OAM) must be authentic. I can think of no occasions where that would not be the case. b On Sat, 2020-04-11 at 16:03 +0200, Fabrice Theoleyre wrote: > Dear all, > > We just submitted a novel version of the draft: > 1/ we addressed the comments of Rex > 2/ we addressed the comments of Greg, who is now also an author > 3/ we partly addressed the comments of Lou, so that the draft now > focuses only on wireless specificities. Up to now, we modified the > introduction and the abstract, we have to make the same job for the > rest of the draft. > > We have also to describe more clearly the relationship with OAM for > detnet (Janos' comment) > > Best regards, > Fabrice > > > > > > Le 11 avr. 2020 à 15:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Fabrice Theoleyre and posted to > > the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support > > Revision: 02 > > Title: Operations, Administration and Maintenance > > (OAM) features for RAW > > Document date: 2020-04-11 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 11 > > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-theoleyr > > e-raw-oam-support-02.txt > > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-theoleyre-ra > > w-oam-support/ > > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam > > -support-02 > > Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-theoley > > re-raw-oam-support > > Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-theoleyre-r > > aw-oam-support-02 > > > > Abstract: > >   Some critical applications may use a wireless infrastructure. > >   However, wireless networks exhibit a bandiwidth of several orders > > of > >   magnitude lower than wired networks.  Besides, wireless > > transmissions > >   are lossy by nature; the probability that a packet cannot be > > decoded > >   correctly by the receiver may be quite high.  In these > > conditions, > >   guaranteeing the network infrastructure works properly is > >   particularly challenging, since we need to address some issues > >   specific to wireless networks.  This document lists the > > requirements > >   of the Operation, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) features > >   recommended to construct a predictable communication > > infrastructure > >   on top of a collection of wireless segments.  This document > > describes > >   the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using OAM in wireless > >   networks to achieve Service Level Objectives (SLO). > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > From nobody Mon Apr 13 03:44:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31C23A13AE for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 03:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwGv9TXVnbpm for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-5.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-5.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D099B3A13AF for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 03:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.35] ([79.72.166.100]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id NwZxjSafsSpzxNwZxjxbql; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:44:37 +0100 X-Originating-IP: [79.72.166.100] X-Authenticated-User: john.s.grant@ntlworld.com X-Spam: 0 X-Authority: v=2.3 cv=XYunMrx5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=KdT9lSvhpbvUFdjzdD3cHA==:117 a=KdT9lSvhpbvUFdjzdD3cHA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=le6d79QuAAAA:8 a=11qjgg2_Qu_r-BpURVsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=PgR0mB1VPH0acp-TQVAA:9 a=_evjwbqLq9rsjOcM:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QbAMNLWdp4a7deKPGBBn:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=nt3jZW36AmriUCFCBwmW:22 To: raw@ietf.org References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> <1586753172.2208.35.camel@gmail.com> From: John Grant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:44:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1586753172.2208.35.camel@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4212A783E13A56200689705C" Content-Language: en-GB X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMPAk+053LPlx8+z0UzrxVDY2NjoEtdkbaEmsd8io/hQbVTESOfdi5WPVVlkYV1nYo159C/vGaHgWIWJ2sRUyuTfe2M+IPONBDAjULx7quFay096CiaQ THiXvPZPTNLOzDsXQN8AP7ctR8P3vW6TwnW93NrhOxmiQVY60ejdfkZc Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:44:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4212A783E13A56200689705C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 13/04/2020 05:46, Rex Buddenberg wrote: >> Thus, providing >>    availability and reliability on top of the wireless infrastructure >>    requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these bursty >>    losses. > Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms (e.g. TCP) > were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty losses. >   The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer 1 > utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my experience > in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit bandwidth- > expensive. In cellular there is also acknowledge/retransmit in the lower layers; I guess it'd be layer 2 so still not layer 3. One issue the mobile industry has is that TCP assumes a packet that gets through at the second attempt has been delayed by congestion, and reacts inappropriately. -- John Grant Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England +44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455 http://www.ninetiles.com --------------4212A783E13A56200689705C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 13/04/2020 05:46, Rex Buddenberg wrote:
Thus, providing
   availability and reliability on top of the wireless infrastructure
   requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these bursty
   losses.

Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms (e.g. TCP)
were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty losses.
  The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer 1
utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my experience
in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit bandwidth-
expensive.
In cellular there is also acknowledge/retransmit in the lower layers; I guess it'd be layer 2 so still not layer 3. One issue the mobile industry has is that TCP assumes a packet that gets through at the second attempt has been delayed by congestion, and reacts inappropriately.
-- 
John Grant
Nine Tiles, Cambridge, England
+44 1223 862599 and +44 1223 511455
http://www.ninetiles.com
--------------4212A783E13A56200689705C-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 06:31:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBB03A15D8 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uXYeUlFHGFY7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 030393A15D6 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id s202so4127951oih.3 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:31:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g7IyjyFT+3RyTiHWV/MkTxSQvn2I6TUbTZEha/JYdks=; b=m+kGpw5qxdE1RK3OrQNC41YasjDSbrVrQbMpyKRZXx+lFJ2WWgFS0QNH0OXsfCDK8Q yMqiVyMrMY4tE3PHZcY6mMGO79ngmaU43AuXEBw9WUchtv8x8fJGS3AeSE0emPe3vQSK JfQ15P+Lw7Xj/rdjlFURDz/CIdHvByXF5WPChYMT2jXJ3OSF0SzvZ5i0u5aw6uerC/El 1zOwYulCwpuncUOC63kp/v/ojd013Fg3aAXch8m+Z3v+B76iTsg59YYvWbAJSk7/tKZs 2kvngUN3kGFNIKHwJuHqb4Gbt9nPG1+PJom98Lk1JWgnRyGd9sUsfmE/J5lggZvDuTkQ 7mQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g7IyjyFT+3RyTiHWV/MkTxSQvn2I6TUbTZEha/JYdks=; b=JK4rRXOu0QHDQzPwCA8uNHGeOf3ZvC+kUf60fm7Q2CAaC0dEG8AJD2jTz2XfP1Zr4D KY5jBYKiIKCOC/PXcQBMKG98XgyfEqQqBzchVwQ7qL/7f9KWkPhR4KHuI2how8JPpXnu LXOVDvuLJhR7l0UaRrKnVu++XDsQMftkvGsbY1zzBtz8LLJGPmoTP81lUAGShcqh7+oj V4HhHeZS86pq+twAfjJmVYXetBfjCFAWxFPNMnm4opmehQnpFZiDtmBMvJkT1L2lPWy6 ry6vTC0v4YDEhpzk2KFzqWv5d2GumY0paaPctapkAhekO67u+9609cPMxFcSsuAF7DIW V7hQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYUdx8teDIdXoml6qHyBeDenP/oEBZpDlhy9RGGUya1Z429S5TZ WpGuN+/3saYhJD4auNUYxeDlJ3Gcu8ptMO+PLxQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLKgn5KbcxMiIMVluThRLVgeb4PmNFhItKL0LGej61DlnDH6y93sdbWprsAfM8+21rruiEf76shiWE1aKteoOo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:474e:: with SMTP id u75mr11493575oia.52.1586784687036; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:31:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> <1586753172.2208.35.camel@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:31:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: John Grant Cc: raw@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009b1f6d05a32c1940" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:31:29 -0000 --0000000000009b1f6d05a32c1940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:44 PM John Grant wrote: > On 13/04/2020 05:46, Rex Buddenberg wrote: > > Thus, providing > availability and reliability on top of the wireless infrastructure > requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these bursty > losses. > > Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms (e.g. TCP) > were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty losses. > The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer 1 > utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my experience > in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit bandwidth- > expensive. > > In cellular there is also acknowledge/retransmit in the lower layers; I > guess it'd be layer 2 so still not layer 3. One issue the mobile industry > has is that TCP assumes a packet that gets through at the second attempt > has been delayed by congestion, and reacts inappropriately. > For RAW technology there needs to be reliable technique in L1 or L2 so that we can call it reliable wireless. In cellular it is reliable techniques. AB --0000000000009b1f6d05a32c1940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:44 PM John= Grant <j@ninetiles.com> wrote= :
=20 =20 =20
On 13/04/2020 05:46, Rex Buddenberg wrote:
Thus, providing
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0availability and reliability on top of the wireless infra=
structure
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these =
bursty
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0losses.

Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms (e.=
g. TCP)
were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty losses.
=C2=A0 The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer 1
utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my experience
in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit bandwidth-
expensive.
In cellular there is also acknowledge/retransmit in the lower layers; I guess it'd be layer 2 so still not layer 3. One issue the mobile industry has is that TCP assumes a packet that gets through at the second attempt has been delayed by congestion, and reacts inappropriately.

For RAW tech= nology there needs to be reliable technique in L1 or L2 so that we can call= it reliable wireless. In cellular it is reliable techniques.
AB
--0000000000009b1f6d05a32c1940-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 11:13:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: raw@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE8A3A1ADD for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZJlIJyfioD1h for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF7B3A1AE4 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id d17so4818035pgo.0 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ldkk5lSabjY+TRGhRQAWbMQuk2ojOAnS0cO80FRpAKQ=; b=J7rl9Msl3Hs0cl/TKb4yRFV32b1tj7Rww/c7Xw3mgs9GGEwlSBcxgOsvmq+1iiYwzn BSmSJK25z0bYjAJF7qWq0/S1Kru0bc6aU76/szoO9jOM3ZHocoh3u+laJWVoRPNv3iBI vsKj4tTWXLwCbdpq+F6UvNslZKyyq04syEC1lBjyo3LsXMaqwCMXHZv481lv9EaQbDBw HSt6dKsNOcZ6FKxL5P9G88jOCVLegI3sOLIKZ5Wb11Yy6pd1GMwPZADRbtKhmJrcd5La zlyF+TXLDjZpDxkIxbQETrqC4etQUfq6/BR5AH1TR/vRD7sk5/VCqU02BIHgvff/NDKF qo9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ldkk5lSabjY+TRGhRQAWbMQuk2ojOAnS0cO80FRpAKQ=; b=HN8KzhvXF5gubM8GBvhXzNiqizY2+8HWRb5cW/fEmwCCqh6O9wYJQj23E8lKClx5Kz vVM/uLiEZMzSpAztSAsDkCrphNjD0wU9wP2pk/XMYStUILFNzTZ60KPbU6JnQcUxIEQu xg1EAG8HY4L1VEQ9j6+vN2WzzIcU/kwV6xIJvZCMzxHxLD+sV5Ytesd0MlfSwEcrxmOo AbCq4QT1gM0uT28kGmTSF2jjfOVgnmm9JlCHSQrTyRZm0/LtX3l1kYqUO3H9Eyo2GWNP z3r2KDSeKsGod976IVksAJCqGdmMLAjllHHXAU0bbszvMzO/sqoSwDrape/pJf9393Qr sbwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuambbFH5PwrRQ4zOoV3b0w2sMaFzXDo15AjTUDfXql4i0wwdqMs PbbJTJVXGRuTcvGn0xOjgdZ2XVgS X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI1uMyA0ftcNF3r3zZpjtvKVNchaOImd+MPhI4yuUOGdG8zJTtwE9DE98vhW+Kd9cDIEOCTZw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:86c9:: with SMTP id h9mr15966984pfo.294.1586801577719; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (c-73-241-197-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.241.197.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm9195900pfi.202.2020.04.13.11.12.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1586801575.2208.44.camel@gmail.com> From: Rex Buddenberg To: Abdussalam Baryun , John Grant Cc: raw@ietf.org Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:12:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: <158661318544.14084.5863836622249108176@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F7B9B43-11FB-4D0A-8B90-AA1EB8BAA1FB@unistra.fr> <1586753172.2208.35.camel@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.2 (3.18.5.2-1.fc23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-02.txt X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:13:01 -0000 Ethernet, for example, has a frame check sequence and a link-level (aka layer 2) retransmit on error.  Back in the '80s there were some experiments (by radio amateurs if memory serves) that found that end- end (layer 4) error control was more efficient than per hop. Nonetheless both exist.     John, you are correct -- TCP detected a missing packet but it had no idea why the packet was missing. And the reactions (partially shutting the send window) assumed that a missing packet was caused by congestion (e.g. router queue overflow). That, of course, is a pretty naive, and often wrong, conclusion. Especially in wireless.     If I'm reading what the OAM folks on this list are telling us is that we need more information -- more 'why' in the missing packet event??? For that, you're gonna want to bore down into base station MAC operations (via the MIB values).   My intent here is to fix the wording in the draft to avoid attracting the protocol police. On Mon, 2020-04-13 at 15:31 +0200, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:44 PM John Grant wrote: > > On 13/04/2020 05:46, Rex Buddenberg wrote: > > > > Thus, providing > > > >    availability and reliability on top of the wireless > > > > infrastructure > > > >    requires specific layer 3 mechanisms to counteract these > > > > bursty > > > >    losses. > > > Where I was raised, layer 4 was where reliability mechanisms > > > (e.g. TCP) > > > were to be found. TCP is very good at counteracting bursty > > > losses. > > >   The other place that bursty losses can be countered is at layer > > > 1 > > > utilizing Forward Error Correction (FEC) techniques. In my > > > experience > > > in MF, LF, HF radio they can be quite effective, albeit > > > bandwidth- > > > expensive. > >  In cellular there is also acknowledge/retransmit in the lower > > layers; I guess it'd be layer 2 so still not layer 3. One issue the > > mobile industry has is that TCP assumes a packet that gets through > > at the second attempt has been delayed by congestion, and reacts > > inappropriately. > For RAW technology there needs to be reliable technique in L1 or L2 > so that we can call it reliable wireless. In cellular it is reliable > techniques. > > AB > --  > RAW mailing list > RAW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw