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From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
CC: "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>, "raw-chairs@ietf.org" <raw-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/raw/bHkelli08-dBgICx-6X1gf8tzLk>
Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
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Hi Pascal,

Perhaps it may be good to write here another comment I made before in diffe=
rent forms:
It would be good to see whether or not PAREO is applicable to the RAW radio=
 technologies or only to IEEE Std 802.15.4? This includes whether the conce=
pt of tracks is only applicable to 6TiSCH or other technologies as well? I =
think it would be beneficial if the authors could show that.

Thank you!

All the best,
Janos



-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>=20
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 2:29 PM
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-0=
0.txt

Hello Janos:

I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries.

I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I'm=
 reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireless=
 experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a requirem=
ent that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is con=
tained in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that ar=
e specific to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly e=
xtended.=20

If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless e=
xperts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the beginnin=
g of a solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture=
 outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and =
hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF.=20

All in all I believe that the charter makes  a lot of sense.

Keep safe,

Pascal
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for=20
> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt
>=20
> Hi Pascal,
>=20
> I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW=20
> charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to=20
> collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use=20
> cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to=20
> solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad=20
> to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the=20
> requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help=20
> seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architectur=
e.
> I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but=20
> run with some overlaps.
>=20
>=20
> Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/
> " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again:=20
> For/against was maybe 80 vs 20."
> where the work items were:
> "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless =20
> use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document
>  2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that=20
> the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS)"
>=20
>=20
> As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework=20
> to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most=20
> familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655=20
> DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to=20
> the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet=20
> Problem Statement. Of course, RFC
> 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by=20
> individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a sol=
ution at high level.
>=20
> The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution."
>=20
> So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to=20
> remain in the scope of the charter.
>=20
> As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to=20
> my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that=20
> it is good, but it should not specify solution details.
>=20
> I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework".
> I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two=20
> options for the reasons explained above.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Janos
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert=20
> (pthubert)
> Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM
> To: raw@ietf.org
> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20
> architecture-00.txt
>=20
> Dear all:
>=20
> The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match=20
> the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW=20
> charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an=20
> architecture draft but does not require a problem statement.
>=20
> Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO=20
> requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I=20
> just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go an=
d solicit early feedback.
> Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text.
>=20
> Comments welcome!
>=20
> Keep safe...
>=20
> Pascal
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14
> To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos=20
> <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;
> Georgios Papadopoulos <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;=20
> Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Subject: New Version Notification for=20
> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the=20
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-pthubert-raw-architecture
> Revision:	00
> Title:		Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture
> Document date:	2020-04-01
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		16
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw-
> architecture-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-archi=
tecture/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architectu=
re-00
> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-raw-
> architecture
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>    Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced
>    multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on
>    wireless links.  The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a
>    centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the
>    controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited.  RAW
>    separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is
>    recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding
>    decision is taken for an individual packet.  RAW operates at the
>    forwarding time scale.  The RAW problem is to decide, within the
>    redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be
>    used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while
>    minimizing the waste of resources.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
> --
> RAW mailing list
> RAW@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" <raw-chairs@ietf.org>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
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Hello Janos

I'm working on the document 01 and thanks to you in particular there's a lo=
t of work to be done : )

Conceptually, PAREO is not linked to a particular MAC / PHY; the most diffi=
cult of all is the constructive interference and you see it in 5G, Wi-Fi7 a=
nd TSCH. ARQ is also quite ubiquitous in LAN/WAN wireless at least for reas=
onable distances. Overhearing is less done in practice but I have not seen =
reasons that would absolutely bar it in the non-TSHC techs. Outside RAW, it=
 is the foundation of the reliability in LoRa for instance.

Track is another thing. You could do it in a Wi-Fi mesh, and quite possibly=
 you could use D2D to achieve it as well in 5G (at least one rebound). I've=
 not seen any of that done in practice in the real world as of now. We shou=
ld mention that in an applicability statement, but at the architecture leve=
l, since all is feasible and we are abstracting the MAC/PHY, what exactly w=
ould you wish to say?

Following our discussions, draft archi-framework 01 will separate the use c=
ases where we protect one hop (the wireless access) and where we protect a =
limited wireless path (a Track). In the former case, we'll observe the firs=
t hop L2 Link and the end-to-end L3 SLA; as I see it now, but the debate ha=
s not even started, the rest of the path would be considered as infinitely =
good compared to the first hop, whatever metric you consider for reliabilit=
y and availability, so we'd charge all end-to-end issue to the first hop an=
d make it more reliable (like use more than one link) to cope with L3 end-t=
o-end issues.=20

Does that match your question?

Take care,

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Janos Farkas
> Sent: lundi 18 mai 2020 00:16
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-
> architecture-00.txt
>=20
> Hi Pascal,
>=20
> Perhaps it may be good to write here another comment I made before in
> different forms:
> It would be good to see whether or not PAREO is applicable to the RAW rad=
io
> technologies or only to IEEE Std 802.15.4? This includes whether the conc=
ept
> of tracks is only applicable to 6TiSCH or other technologies as well? I t=
hink it
> would be beneficial if the authors could show that.
>=20
> Thank you!
>=20
> All the best,
> Janos
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 2:29 PM
> To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
> Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture=
-
> 00.txt
>=20
> Hello Janos:
>=20
> I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries.
>=20
> I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you, so I=
'm
> reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also attracts wireles=
s
> experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not take it as a require=
ment
> that what this resulting team produces is a subset of DetNet and is conta=
ined
> in the DetNet Architecture. I actually expect new approaches that are spe=
cific
> to RAW in addition to those inherited from DetNet and possibly extended.
>=20
> If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the wireless
> experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture is the begin=
ning of a
> solution, which is composed of many components that the architecture
> outlines. That's the reason why it must come the best informed party, and
> hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for that at the IETF.
>=20
> All in all I believe that the charter makes  a lot of sense.
>=20
> Keep safe,
>=20
> Pascal
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
> > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10
> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for
> > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt
> >
> > Hi Pascal,
> >
> > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW
> > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely, to
> > collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the use
> > cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about to
> > solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be glad
> > to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet the
> > requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may help
> > seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/architect=
ure.
> > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but
> > run with some overlaps.
> >
> >
> > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/
> > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again:
> > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20."
> > where the work items were:
> > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic wireless
> > use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document
> >  2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that
> > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS=
)"
> >
> >
> > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer framework
> > to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a solution. I'm most
> > familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example. I think RFC 8655
> > DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the DetNet solution to
> > the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases and RFC 8577 DetNet
> > Problem Statement. Of course, RFC
> > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by
> > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is a s=
olution at
> high level.
> >
> > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution."
> >
> > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order to
> > remain in the scope of the charter.
> >
> > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes to
> > my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft that
> > it is good, but it should not specify solution details.
> >
> > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework".
> > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the two
> > options for the reasons explained above.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Janos
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert
> > (pthubert)
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM
> > To: raw@ietf.org
> > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-
> > architecture-00.txt
> >
> > Dear all:
> >
> > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match
> > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW
> > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and an
> > architecture draft but does not require a problem statement.
> >
> > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO
> > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document. I
> > just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish to go =
and
> solicit early feedback.
> > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text.
> >
> > Comments welcome!
> >
> > Keep safe...
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14
> > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
> > <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;
> > Georgios Papadopoulos <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;
> > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name:		draft-pthubert-raw-architecture
> > Revision:	00
> > Title:		Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture
> > Document date:	2020-04-01
> > Group:		Individual Submission
> > Pages:		16
> > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw=
-
> > architecture-00.txt
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-
> architecture/
> > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architec=
ture-00
> > Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-ra=
w-
> > architecture
> >
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced
> >    multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on
> >    wireless links.  The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a
> >    centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the
> >    controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited.  RAW
> >    separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is
> >    recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding
> >    decision is taken for an individual packet.  RAW operates at the
> >    forwarding time scale.  The RAW problem is to decide, within the
> >    redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be
> >    used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while
> >    minimizing the waste of resources.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.i=
etf.org.
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> >
> >
> > --
> > RAW mailing list
> > RAW@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
>=20
> --
> RAW mailing list
> RAW@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: CRH "mapping table" and OAM - Re: Adoption Call for "The IPv6 Compact Routing Header (CRH)"
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Subject: Re: [Raw] CRH "mapping table" and OAM - Re: Adoption Call for "The IPv6 Compact Routing Header (CRH)"
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From nobody Wed May 27 09:51:43 2020
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Subject: [Raw] raw - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 108
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Eve Schooler, a Chair of the raw working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Reliable and Available Wireless
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Eve Schooler


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  100 Minutes
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: dtn coinrg
 Technology Overlap: lpwan manet detnet 6tisch
 Key Participant Conflict: netmod netconf icnrg





People who must be present:
  Lou Berger
  Deborah Brungard
  Pascal Thubert
  Rick Taylor
  Janos Farkas
  Eve Schooler

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert@cisco.com)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
CC: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" <raw-chairs@ietf.org>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
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Hi Pascal,

I'm sorry for the non-prompt reply. I guess too many balls in the air.

Well, what I'm after is how these concepts are really applicable to the exi=
sting and standardized RAW technologies. Perhaps in other words, how is the=
 RAW layer applicable to the different RAW technologies, and how does the R=
AW layer interwork with the standard radio technologies below RAW?

As the concepts seem to be coming from 6TiSCH, I suppose the concepts work =
for IEEE Std 802.15.4. But, I'm afraid it is not so clear for IEEE Std 802.=
11 and 3GPP standards, for example.

For instance, ARQ is called out. 3GPP standards specify ARQ (and HARQ). Doe=
s RAW intend to influence 5G ARQ?
I think similar questions could be raised for other radio techniques used i=
n WLAN and 5G.
=20
All the best,
Janos


-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>=20
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 9:58 AM
To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-0=
0.txt

Hello Janos

I'm working on the document 01 and thanks to you in particular there's a lo=
t of work to be done : )

Conceptually, PAREO is not linked to a particular MAC / PHY; the most diffi=
cult of all is the constructive interference and you see it in 5G, Wi-Fi7 a=
nd TSCH. ARQ is also quite ubiquitous in LAN/WAN wireless at least for reas=
onable distances. Overhearing is less done in practice but I have not seen =
reasons that would absolutely bar it in the non-TSHC techs. Outside RAW, it=
 is the foundation of the reliability in LoRa for instance.

Track is another thing. You could do it in a Wi-Fi mesh, and quite possibly=
 you could use D2D to achieve it as well in 5G (at least one rebound). I've=
 not seen any of that done in practice in the real world as of now. We shou=
ld mention that in an applicability statement, but at the architecture leve=
l, since all is feasible and we are abstracting the MAC/PHY, what exactly w=
ould you wish to say?

Following our discussions, draft archi-framework 01 will separate the use c=
ases where we protect one hop (the wireless access) and where we protect a =
limited wireless path (a Track). In the former case, we'll observe the firs=
t hop L2 Link and the end-to-end L3 SLA; as I see it now, but the debate ha=
s not even started, the rest of the path would be considered as infinitely =
good compared to the first hop, whatever metric you consider for reliabilit=
y and availability, so we'd charge all end-to-end issue to the first hop an=
d make it more reliable (like use more than one link) to cope with L3 end-t=
o-end issues.=20

Does that match your question?

Take care,

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Janos Farkas
> Sent: lundi 18 mai 2020 00:16
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org; raw@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Raw] New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20
> architecture-00.txt
>=20
> Hi Pascal,
>=20
> Perhaps it may be good to write here another comment I made before in=20
> different forms:
> It would be good to see whether or not PAREO is applicable to the RAW=20
> radio technologies or only to IEEE Std 802.15.4? This includes whether=20
> the concept of tracks is only applicable to 6TiSCH or other=20
> technologies as well? I think it would be beneficial if the authors could=
 show that.
>=20
> Thank you!
>=20
> All the best,
> Janos
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 2:29 PM
> To: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
> Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for=20
> draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt
>=20
> Hello Janos:
>=20
> I'll change the title to add /Framework in 01, no worries.
>=20
> I have seen a lot of cross participation with DetNet, including you,=20
> so I'm reasonably sure that we have that side covered. RAW also=20
> attracts wireless experts that did not participate to DetNet. I do not=20
> take it as a requirement that what this resulting team produces is a=20
> subset of DetNet and is contained in the DetNet Architecture. I=20
> actually expect new approaches that are specific to RAW in addition to th=
ose inherited from DetNet and possibly extended.
>=20
> If that's correct we'll need a new architecture, and we want the=20
> wireless experts to help us produce it. I agree that the architecture=20
> is the beginning of a solution, which is composed of many components=20
> that the architecture outlines. That's the reason why it must come the=20
> best informed party, and hopefully RAW is the group that has formed for t=
hat at the IETF.
>=20
> All in all I believe that the charter makes  a lot of sense.
>=20
> Keep safe,
>=20
> Pascal
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>
> > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 22:10
> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > Cc: raw@ietf.org; raw-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for
> > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture- 00.txt
> >
> > Hi Pascal,
> >
> > I like the approach reflected in the first two milestones in the RAW=20
> > charter. I found this multiple times a good way of working; namely,=20
> > to collect use cases and then collect the requirements out of the=20
> > use cases. I think this helps understanding the problem we are about=20
> > to solve. Perhaps requirements is close to problem statement. I'd be=20
> > glad to see then what can we do with current IETF technology to meet=20
> > the requirements / solve the problem and what are the gaps. This may=20
> > help seeing clearer what could be useful to include in a framework/arch=
itecture.
> > I understand that these work items are not completely sequential but=20
> > run with some overlaps.
> >
> >
> > Since you brought up the BoF, the consensus reached on the BoF:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-raw/
> > " If do WG for only first 2 work items, informational, do poll again:
> > For/against was maybe 80 vs 20."
> > where the work items were:
> > "1) Produce informational documents describing deterministic=20
> > wireless use cases, in continuation to the DetNet Use Cases document
> >  2) Produce informational documents describing the technologies that=20
> > the group will cover (e.g., URLLC, TSCH, 802.11ax/be and possibly LDACS=
)"
> >
> >
> > As you asked feedback about architecture; honestly, I prefer=20
> > framework to architecture. Architecture for me is kind of a=20
> > solution. I'm most familiar with DetNet, so I'll take it as example.=20
> > I think RFC 8655 DetNet Architecture outlines at a high level the=20
> > DetNet solution to the problem coming from RFC 8578 DetNet Use Cases=20
> > and RFC 8577 DetNet Problem Statement. Of course, RFC
> > 8655 does not provide the solution details, they are provided by=20
> > individual drafts like the data plane drafts; but still RFC 8655 is=20
> > a solution at
> high level.
> >
> > The RAW charter says: "RAW is not chartered to work on a solution."
> >
> > So, a framework seems to be better to me than architecture in order=20
> > to remain in the scope of the charter.
> >
> > As for framework, the DetNet Controller Plane Framework draft comes=20
> > to my mind. In the DetNet WG we discussed with regards to this draft=20
> > that it is good, but it should not specify solution details.
> >
> > I know, the charter uses "architecture/framework".
> > I'm just expressing an opinion on which one I'd suggest out of the=20
> > two options for the reasons explained above.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Janos
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: RAW <raw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert
> > (pthubert)
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 3:27 PM
> > To: raw@ietf.org
> > Cc: raw-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Raw] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pthubert-raw-=20
> > architecture-00.txt
> >
> > Dear all:
> >
> > The collection of documents that we built for the BoF does not match=20
> > the list of deliverables that we have now committed with the RAW=20
> > charter. In particular, the charter expects a requirement draft and=20
> > an architecture draft but does not require a problem statement.
> >
> > Georgios and I picked and restructured text from the PAREO=20
> > requirements and the PS draft, and started an architecture document.=20
> > I just pushed the first version to hint the group of where we wish=20
> > to go and
> solicit early feedback.
> > Please expect revisions soon to add more architecture text.
> >
> > Comments welcome!
> >
> > Keep safe...
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> > Sent: mercredi 1 avril 2020 15:14
> > To: Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
> > <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;
> > Georgios Papadopoulos <georgios.papadopoulos@imt-atlantique.fr>;
> > Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > Subject: New Version Notification for=20
> > draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-00.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the=20
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name:		draft-pthubert-raw-architecture
> > Revision:	00
> > Title:		Reliable and Available Wireless Architecture
> > Document date:	2020-04-01
> > Group:		Individual Submission
> > Pages:		16
> > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pthubert-raw=
-
> > architecture-00.txt
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pthubert-raw-
> architecture/
> > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architec=
ture-00
> > Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pthubert-ra=
w-
> > architecture
> >
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    Due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced
> >    multipath fading, deterministic networking can only be approached on
> >    wireless links.  The radio conditions may change -way- faster than a
> >    centralized routing can adapt and reprogram, in particular when the
> >    controller is distant and connectivity is slow and limited.  RAW
> >    separates the routing time scale at which a complex path is
> >    recomputed from the forwarding time scale at which the forwarding
> >    decision is taken for an individual packet.  RAW operates at the
> >    forwarding time scale.  The RAW problem is to decide, within the
> >    redundant solutions that are proposed by the routing, which will be
> >    used for each individual packet to provide a DetNet service while
> >    minimizing the waste of resources.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20
> > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.i=
etf.org.
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> >
> >
> > --
> > RAW mailing list
> > RAW@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw
>=20
> --
> RAW mailing list
> RAW@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw

