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Fri, 11 Dec 2020 16:23:03 +0000 From: "Schooler, Eve M" To: "raw@ietf.org" CC: "raw-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft minutes - RAW WG IETF 109 Thread-Index: AdbP11qGtcGuXSejSXOFrIfKB7MrEg== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 16:23:03 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-version: 11.5.1.3 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=intel.com; x-originating-ip: [99.4.120.204] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 21cbd89c-ee81-41d8-7f9e-08d89df108c4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SA2PR11MB5097: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: cn3fel5LzYadcRFNSG6LmRPJ+7S4qdp9Vyptr0pFzjHu71JvA1N4U6PIIitQ19ZZZ+5iGU3+VhOZYC4nsABKPavmVcgNxwaUAUtKPlPIaQ8AdylZ7LDhrRA6w3wzz43p0ZRhaGbABcA8EIy/+ADSzCua/dJ9L1MLsWjv0aeTmNWldBixWR2xR1bRsfANp4xL/B+Fp386PIoE1AT/YKUko/ErohkEYWifUKnuo50zvq0XPjxXhDb42tou3/KkgSgA5DpAXffggWfgF7NxCwH1AlLiULoIe10ywrgXGgTNCDoVlGm8t3cXxla5k7Rjt7uerj9LkahCNa+9QUZSXh2dWa8OSpI8r4ZE07aBdnMaqk7+zowFo9rA15eL/JQgBuMKKJDjevTITjUWgrd9eXfVIQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_004_SN6PR11MB3150A3724D4A7D345F136BF6D7CA0SN6PR11MB3150namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN6PR11MB3150.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21cbd89c-ee81-41d8-7f9e-08d89df108c4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Dec 2020 16:23:03.1680 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 46c98d88-e344-4ed4-8496-4ed7712e255d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: lKcFaDUD6NhzOQE8MfT+YtR4yDDaU3875XAdWowhKGnF5LASP71LB9OmJrKWt+baJuQ3SeDWGZyxmAMd9kvvqV5K1LDkgUkzX8MRZrzvNAk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR11MB5097 X-OriginatorOrg: intel.com Archived-At: Subject: [Raw] Draft minutes - RAW WG IETF 109 X-BeenThere: raw@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: reliable and available wireless List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 16:23:11 -0000 --_004_SN6PR11MB3150A3724D4A7D345F136BF6D7CA0SN6PR11MB3150namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR11MB3150A3724D4A7D345F136BF6D7CA0SN6PR11MB3150namp_" --_000_SN6PR11MB3150A3724D4A7D345F136BF6D7CA0SN6PR11MB3150namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Thanks for the great presentations, participation, and discussion at the IE= TF 109. Many thanks to Pascal Thubert and Ethan Grossman for serving as our trusted= note takers. Below/attached are the draft minutes from the last RAW WG for your review/s= uggested edits (they are due today!). I cannot tell if it is a distribution hiccup or just IETF backlog... the mi= nutes are available on the web site, but don't appear to have circulated to= the mailing list, thus this e-mail (apologies if it is redundant). Have a great weekend, Be well, Stay safe, Eve & Rick ----- # RAW WG Agenda IETF-109 * Date: Monday, November 16, 2020 * Time: 1200-1400 ITC (UTC+7)-- 120mins * Chairs: Rick Taylor Eve Schooler * Responsible AD: Deborah Brungard * Meetecho: https://az.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=3Draw * Live minutes: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-109-raw # Minutes * Note takers: Pascal Thubert & Ethan Grossman ## 1 Intro - Chairs -- 10 mins * Rick makes the introduction, note well etc... invites to CodiMD * Eve gives a status, * Rick indicates that this is not a doc writing groups, we want to move on = to propose protocols, we have a tight schedule. Is archicture / framework I= -D ready for adoption ? * New drafts, what to do with them? * Carlos Bernardos: Re: draft-bernardos-raw-mec-00 - Didn't ask for preso s= lot this time, expect to present at next IETF; is active work. ## 2 Technologies - Pascal Thubert -- 20 mins https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-technologies-00 Re: do we want to enforce all technology chapters to have same structure. Lou Berger: Where does this info show up? Is there a section where IETF tec= hnologies show up? Pascal: This draft is about specific radio technologies, IETF technologies = not included here. Background. A charter item to do this analysis for IETF technologies, the gap analysis = - that draft is about link layer (et al) and their capabilities. There are= other sections about IETF protocols. Rick: Personal opinion: Don't need all sections to have the same format - i= f a section is important then include it, but don't fight for symmetry. Pascal: On deployment and spectrum section, for WiFi 6 would be interesting= to have this, what services and when. Big fight for WiFi spectrum - maybe = ask WiFi to get a "6.3" section. Maybe projections for deployment. Could be= interesting. Nils: Says (in chat) he can add to LDACS draft. Pascal: A 6G discussion is at IETF, maybe work with Janos to create? Would = be good to hear where 6G is going with respect to determinism. Rick: What about legacy technologies? All about new techs, not much on lega= cy. Is that out of scope for this doc? Pascal: Limited to technologies that can be scheduled, which allow bounded = latency. So didn't go over all non-deterministic radios. Rick: Could be a work item for WG? Produce a doc about workarounds for lega= cy? Chunshan Xiong: Working in 5G 3PP. Question: Have dedicated spectrum for 5G= (?) Pascal: Not sure where more about 5G would fit into this doc - what is sugg= estion? CX: Two accesses available fo 5G, multiple path, for reliabliity and throug= hput. Could improve mobility and throughput and reliability. Pascal: Agree, that's why we're here. Arch has picture of this, WiFi on one= stream, 5G on another. For this doc, explaining technology, do you want a = section explaining how they work together? CX: In 5G maybe consider (?) This is IETF - looking at solutions between heterogenious technologies. 5G = may have system for improving reliability within 5G tech space - that's gre= at but where IETF comes in is when data transitions to different technologi= es, but still needs the required SLA. So maybe more words in 5G saying is m= ore than just radio for handsets, may be useful for furhter work and analys= is, but we don't need to duplicate what 5G 3PP etc are doing. Want to figur= e out how they interact with other technologies. Eve: This doc is to harmonize various technologies, it is groundwork for th= at. Pascal: About adoption of this doc - are we missing something? Maybe more a= bout 5G, or about WiFi with 5G underneath, ask authors of that section if t= hey want to add that. Don't want to change structure dramatically, how to g= et to last call to approve? Ask for reviewers? Rick: Agree more review would be good. Eve: Will review further. Show of hands: Who has read doc (technologies draft)? Raise 8, do not 6, total 36 Show of hands: Who will do a thorough review of this draft? Carlos, Eve, Adam Wiethuechter, (one more?) Raise: 4, Do not: 7, total 36 ## 3 Architecture - Pascal Thubert -- 20 mins https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-architecture-04 Eve: Would be a good place to solicit input Pascal: Not the right Rick: For gap analysis that would be its own document. Section 2 here would be shorter, would call out other drafts "solving problems as listed in these references" . Pascal: Structure may need to be adapted, remove some pieces if they are be= tter expressed elsewhere. Not sure if need prime statement. Sec 2.2 only couple of pages. 2.4 (related IETF work) would be huge, so bet= ter to do as own doc. Rick: They need to be there so can scope this document. Use cases are gener= al, broad, need to refine them to say framework applies to these use cases = - good but need to keep short. Pascal: "Framework" definition? Packaged into framework and architecture, e= xplaining what can be done, section 3, currently called framework, but mayb= e rename to "background"? Model inherits from DetNet. Flow Identification vs Path Identification - 6TiSCH has different tuple tha= n defined in DetNet - decouple path from flow indication, allow multiple fl= ows in a path. Can then have OAM with same 5- or 6-tuple but still distingu= ish. 2 usual methods: Source/Segment routing, at ingress, put in at start. Here = would not linear path but 2-dimensional path. Pascal: (?) Inherits from 6TiSCH and ROLL Pascal: Would like feedback today or on ML about structure. So far see that= 2.4 could go away when new draft arrives. Same for Arch - did (Pascal) do = the right organization? Anything else we need? Pascal feels he is done with= it, ready to give to WG. Eve: So once have done this review step would be ready to ask for adoption? Rick: Will help with review of this. It is a key part of the work, need to = adopt, willing to help. As soon as can get latest draft, WG please read it = - interoducts a lot of framework, architecture, tries to set down ideas bei= ng discussed informally in a formal manner. So if concepts aren't clear, no= w is the time to resolve this. Pascal: WG adoptions isn't a guarantee that it will be published eventually= , but adoption call would trigger reviews we are talking about. Eve: So post it, we can read it, then ask on ML if ready to adopt, since fa= irly mature. Lou Berger: Filling in some spots, identifying gaps would be good before ad= option, good to know what we're signing up for. Flag what work is, prior to= adoption call. Rick: Would counter that: Doc is critical to WG, what WG is trying to achie= ve, solve problems in use cases. So personally feel that adopting ASAP keep= s momentum in WG. Lou: Support adoption, once have identified missing things e.g., DLEP and D= etNet. Willing to identify more about what is needed to integrate with othe= r IETF technologies. Would not support adoption without flagging those thin= gs. Rick: With chair hat on: Pascal publishes update. Then 4 weeks later have c= all for adoption - gives everyone time to read and review. Is tech and appr= oach correct? Criteria for deciding. Does this work for Pascal, WG? Pascal: Would be good if Lou could contribute some of those missing pieces.= Can you two help with this in next 4 weeks? Rick: Yes will make that time. Or another DetNet LDP expert. Lou: Will send something to the list once the new revision is posted. Pascal: Not sure what Lou has signed up for? Need work on Arch doc, want to= see how it fits into rest of IETF framework, e.g. DetNet and TE, there is = some new text in new version, but Lou could improve a lot. Also discussion = on how fits with existing tooling like DLEP, would need to be in Gap analys= is, how to describe integration in Arch doc. Need to structure, decide what goes where. ## 4 Use Cases - Carlos Bernardos -- 5 mins https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-use-cases-00 Questions for WG: Eve: Chairs discussed this. Concluded that have good collection of use case= s, but to get to LC, need to reach out to others in those areas, to determi= ne if they are captured well enough. Carlos: Will try to recruit others to review. Rick: This is a WG doc, so WG please reach out to subject matter experts. I= f you know someone or are a SME, please have a look. Don't need a huge dril= ldown essay, just need to make sure relevant info is there and is correct. = Make sure everyone in WG is happy with this. Nils: Will rework some of aeronautics part. Alexandre Petrescu: For the UAV platooning use-case - one of the use-cases is the 'drone show'= using thousands of simultaneously flying drones. But unfortunately these c= ommunicate only when on the ground. DO we know when will these drones commu= nicate among them in-flight? Rick: Could write a lot about UAV swarming - as long as capture general pu= rpose text, will be sufficient. Pascal: Maybe need link between use cases, where each applies, and how arc= hitecture solves the problems, how to glue them together. Conclusion of use= case doc is to find common themes to look at. Create link to Arch doc. Rick: Agree. Needs solid use cases doc, so can refer to it. Can then recha= rter RAW in the future, so next gen of IETF contributors can solve what is = currently out of scope). Pascal: E.g. need for multiple accesses at same time. Have two abstraction= s, mesh and ... . Carlos: Would like to turn req'ts section at the end to make link with Arc= h. Will try to do this in next iteration, with other feedback. Then will ge= t more comments after that. See how to integrate into Arch. Pascal: Has published new version of Arch draft. ## 5 LDACS - Nils Maeurer -- 15 mins https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-05 Rick: Question of why are we handling this in IETF/RAW? Is in slide p 13 - = keep tower to ground networks operating smoothly. Using alternate technolog= ies, but end to end is important. So LDACS proper may be out of scope for I= ETF, but making sure it connects to rest of world is in scope. Pascal: Do we have a case where plane on top would use other planes as a r= elay to tower, like mesh network? Nils: Presented air to ground, more mature, but also air-air layer is bein= d worked on. Relaying from one aircraft to another. But need MAC and PHY pr= ocedures defined. Rick: This use case being explored by aeronautuical companies, but not alw= ays at Layer 2, maybe at IP layer, since diff't manufacturers radios, diff'= t security domains, etc. Eve: thanks for iterating on feedback, look forward to next draft. ## 6 OAM -Fabrice Theoleyre -- 15 mins https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-support-04 Rick: Checking charter to make sure OAM is a charter item? Eve: Not listed in milestones, but is in charter. Rick: So we need an OAM doc, so WG please review, give authors feedback. Au= thors are you ready for adoption? Fabrice: No, not ready yet. Maybe at next IETF. Eve: We need to reconfigure milestones, need to add an OAM milestone, a bit= further out. But need to estimate a time frame with authors. Rick: looking to rationalize milestones with what is actually being worked = on. Eve: Need to align milestones with charter and deliverability capabilities.= Rick: Not increasing scope of work. ## 7 Discussion Pascal: Back to Architecture - give ourselves 4 weeks? Would like work sess= ion to discuss between Lou and Rick to figure out how to make suggested cha= nges. Time is tight. Rick: Is 4 weeks too long? Pascal: No, should just adopt, then ask two new authors as only change for = 00 revision. Form design team or just authors to do what Lou and Rick want.= Could do just between them and authors. But if we know where we're going, = don't need to wait four weeks. Rick: Choice of 4 weeks was because no opportunity for WG to read latest ve= rsion, so need time for that. Consider if correct direction for arch and fr= amework for RAW. Pascal: Could do the required work in personal contribution. Rick: Two separate questions: Is there more work to do? Does WG adopt doc? Lou: Reason for 2 week cutoffs - starting at busy time, should allow 4 week= s to allow time for review. Can't say "I published it today, let's adopt to= day" Rick: 4 weeks gets us through to start of December holidays. Happy to do sh= ow of hands, but need time to consider. Pascal: Will take the time it needs. If it's 4 weeks, OK. Eve: Agree with Pascal - it has been posted, read it, get comments in after= this week, hard next week in US due to holiday, but should be able to fini= sh before December holidays at latest. Take it to list. As long as adoption= is within this calendar year, fine. Pascal: People will take it more seriously if call for adoption. Rick: Point is to have call for adoption at end of 4 weeks. Eve: Thanks to group for discussion and note taking. Rick: Might do interim, if not see you at IETF 110... (hopefully the bluesheet is created automatically somewhere) Adjourned. --_000_SN6PR11MB3150A3724D4A7D345F136BF6D7CA0SN6PR11MB3150namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

 

Thanks for the great presentations, participation, a= nd discussion at the IETF 109.

Many thanks to Pascal Thubert and Ethan Grossman for= serving as our trusted note takers.

Below/attached are the draft minutes from the last R= AW WG for your review/suggested edits (they are due today!).

I cannot tell if it is a distribution hiccup or just= IETF backlog… the minutes are available on the web site, but donR= 17;t appear to have circulated to the mailing list, thus this e-mail (apolo= gies if it is redundant).

 

Have a great weekend,

Be well,  Stay safe,

Eve & Rick

 

-----

# RAW WG Agenda IETF-109

 

* Date: Monday, November 16, 2020

* Time: 1200-1400 ITC (UTC+7)-- 120mins <= /p>

* Chairs:

  Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftwa= re.com>

  Eve Schooler <eve.m.schooler@intel.com>=

* Responsible AD: Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.co= m>

* Meetecho: https://az.conf.meetecho.com/conference/= ?group=3Draw

* Live minutes: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-1= 09-raw

 

# Minutes

 

* Note takers: Pascal Thubert & Ethan Grossman

 

## 1 Intro - Chairs -- 10 mins

 

* Rick makes the introduction, note well etc... invi= tes to CodiMD

* Eve gives a status,

* Rick indicates that this is not a doc writing grou= ps, we want to move on to propose protocols, we have a tight schedule. Is a= rchicture / framework I-D ready for adoption ?

* New drafts, what to do with them?

* Carlos Bernardos: Re: draft-bernardos-raw-mec-00 -= Didn't ask for preso slot this time, expect to present at next IETF; is ac= tive work.

 

## 2 Technologies - Pascal Thubert -- 20 mins

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-technolog= ies-00

 

Re: do we want to enforce all technology chapters to= have same structure.

Lou Berger: Where does this info show up? Is there a= section where IETF technologies show up?

Pascal: This draft is about specific radio technolog= ies, IETF technologies not included here. Background.

A charter item to do this analysis for IETF technolo= gies, the gap analysis -  that draft is about link layer (et al) and t= heir capabilities. There are other sections about IETF protocols.

Rick: Personal opinion: Don't need all sections to h= ave the same format - if a section is important then include it, but don't = fight for symmetry.

Pascal: On deployment and spectrum section, for WiFi= 6 would be interesting to have this, what services and when. Big fight for= WiFi spectrum - maybe ask WiFi to get a "6.3" section. Maybe pro= jections for deployment. Could be interesting.

Nils: Says (in chat) he can add to LDACS draft.

Pascal: A 6G discussion is at IETF, maybe work with = Janos to create? Would be good to hear where 6G is going with respect to de= terminism.

Rick: What about legacy technologies? All about new = techs, not much on legacy. Is that out of scope for this doc?

Pascal: Limited to technologies that can be schedule= d, which allow bounded latency. So didn't go over all non-deterministic rad= ios.

Rick: Could be a work item for WG? Produce a doc abo= ut workarounds for legacy?

Chunshan Xiong: Working in 5G 3PP. Question: Have de= dicated spectrum for 5G (?)

 

Pascal: Not sure where more about 5G would fit into = this doc - what is suggestion?

CX: Two accesses available fo 5G, multiple path, for= reliabliity and throughput. Could improve mobility and throughput and reli= ability.

 

Pascal: Agree, that's why we're here. Arch has pictu= re of this, WiFi on one stream, 5G on another. For this doc, explaining tec= hnology, do you want a section explaining how they work together?

 

CX: In 5G maybe consider (?)

 

This is IETF - looking at solutions between heteroge= nious technologies. 5G may have system for improving reliability within 5G = tech space - that's great but where IETF comes in is when data transitions = to different technologies, but still needs the required SLA. So maybe more words in 5G saying is more than just= radio for handsets, may be useful for furhter work and analysis, but we do= n't need to duplicate what 5G 3PP etc are doing. Want to figure out how the= y interact with other technologies.

 

Eve: This doc is to harmonize various technologies, = it is groundwork for that.

 

Pascal: About adoption of this doc - are we missing = something? Maybe more about 5G, or about WiFi with 5G underneath, ask autho= rs of that section if they want to add that. Don't want to change structure= dramatically, how to get to last call to approve? Ask for reviewers?

 

Rick: Agree more review would be good.

Eve: Will review further.

Show of hands: Who has read doc (technologies draft)= ?

Raise 8, do not 6, total 36

 

Show of hands: Who will do a thorough review of this= draft?

Carlos, Eve, Adam Wiethuechter, (one more?)

Raise: 4, Do not: 7, total 36

 

 

## 3 Architecture - Pascal Thubert -- 20 mins

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pthubert-raw-archi= tecture-04

 

Eve: Would be a good place to solicit input

Pascal: Not the right

Rick: For gap analysis that would be its own documen= t.

Section 2 here would be shorter, would call out othe= r drafts

"solving problems as listed in these references= " .

 

Pascal: Structure may need to be adapted, remove som= e pieces if they are better expressed elsewhere.

Not sure if need prime statement.

Sec 2.2 only couple of pages. 2.4 (related IETF work= ) would be huge, so better to do as own doc.

 

Rick: They need to be there so can scope this docume= nt. Use cases are general, broad, need to refine them to say framework appl= ies to these use cases - good but need to keep short.

 

Pascal: "Framework" definition? Packaged i= nto framework and architecture, explaining what can be done, section 3, cur= rently called framework, but maybe rename to "background"? Model = inherits from DetNet.

Flow Identification vs Path Identification - 6TiSCH = has different tuple than defined in DetNet - decouple path from flow indica= tion, allow multiple flows in a path. Can then have OAM with same 5- or 6-t= uple but still distinguish.

 

2 usual methods: Source/Segment routing, at ingress,= put in at start. Here would not linear path but 2-dimensional path.

 

Pascal: (?) Inherits from 6TiSCH and ROLL=

 

Pascal: Would like feedback today or on ML about str= ucture. So far see that 2.4 could go away when new draft arrives. Same for = Arch - did (Pascal) do the right organization? Anything else we need? Pasca= l feels he is done with it, ready to give to WG.

 

Eve: So once have done this review step would be rea= dy to ask for adoption?

Rick: Will help with review of this. It is a key par= t of the work, need to adopt, willing to help. As soon as can get latest dr= aft, WG please read it - interoducts a lot of framework, architecture, trie= s to set down ideas being discussed informally in a formal manner. So if concepts aren't clear, now is the tim= e to resolve this.

 

Pascal: WG adoptions isn't a guarantee that it will = be published eventually, but adoption call would trigger reviews we are tal= king about.

 

Eve: So post it, we can read it, then ask on ML if r= eady to adopt, since fairly mature.

 

Lou Berger: Filling in some spots, identifying gaps = would be good before adoption, good to know what we're signing up for. Flag= what work is, prior to adoption call.

 

Rick: Would counter that: Doc is critical to WG, wha= t WG is trying to achieve, solve problems in use cases. So personally feel = that adopting ASAP keeps momentum in WG.

 

Lou: Support adoption, once have identified missing = things e.g., DLEP and DetNet. Willing to identify more about what is needed= to integrate with other IETF technologies. Would not support adoption with= out flagging those things.

 

Rick: With chair hat on: Pascal publishes update. Th= en 4 weeks later have call for adoption - gives everyone time to read and r= eview. Is tech and approach correct? Criteria for deciding. Does this work = for Pascal, WG?

 

Pascal: Would be good if Lou could contribute some o= f those missing pieces. Can you two help with this in next 4 weeks?

 

Rick: Yes will make that time.

Or another DetNet LDP expert.

 

Lou: Will send something to the list once the new re= vision is posted.

 

Pascal: Not sure what Lou has signed up for? Need wo= rk on Arch doc, want to see how it fits into rest of IETF framework, e.g. D= etNet and TE, there is some new text in new version, but Lou could improve = a lot. Also discussion on how fits with existing tooling like DLEP, would need to be in Gap analysis, how to = describe integration in Arch doc.

Need to structure, decide what goes where.

 

 

## 4 Use Cases - Carlos Bernardos -- 5 mins

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-use-cases= -00

 

Questions for WG:

Eve: Chairs discussed this. Concluded that have good= collection of use cases, but to get to LC, need to reach out to others in = those areas, to determine if they are captured well enough.

Carlos: Will try to recruit others to review. <= /o:p>

 

Rick: This is a WG doc, so WG please reach out to su= bject matter experts. If you know someone or are a SME, please have a look.= Don't need a huge drilldown essay, just need to make sure relevant info is= there and is correct. Make sure everyone in WG is happy with this.

 

Nils: Will rework some of aeronautics part.

 

Alexandre Petrescu:

 For the UAV platooning use-case - one of the u= se-cases is the 'drone show' using thousands of simultaneously flying drone= s. But unfortunately these communicate only when on the ground. DO we know = when will these drones communicate among them in-flight?

 Rick: Could write a lot about UAV swarming - a= s long as capture general purpose text, will be sufficient.

 

 Pascal: Maybe need link between use cases, whe= re each applies, and how architecture solves the problems, how to glue them= together. Conclusion of use case doc is to find common themes to look at. = Create link to Arch doc.

 

 Rick: Agree. Needs solid use cases doc, so can= refer to it. Can then recharter RAW in the future, so next gen of IETF con= tributors can solve what is currently out of scope).

 

 Pascal: E.g. need for multiple accesses at sam= e time. Have two abstractions, mesh and ... .

 

 Carlos: Would like to turn req'ts section at t= he end to make link with Arch. Will try to do this in next iteration, with = other feedback. Then will get more comments after that. See how to integrat= e into Arch.

 

 Pascal: Has published new version of Arch draf= t.

 

 

 

## 5 LDACS - Nils Maeurer -- 15 mins

 

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-raw-ldacs-05<= o:p>

Rick: Question of why are we handling this in IETF/R= AW? Is in slide p 13 - keep tower to ground networks operating smoothly. Us= ing alternate technologies, but end to end is important. So LDACS proper ma= y be out of scope for IETF, but making sure it connects to rest of world is in scope.

 

 Pascal: Do we have a case where plane on top w= ould use other planes as a relay to tower, like mesh network?

 Nils: Presented air to ground, more mature, bu= t also air-air layer is beind worked on. Relaying from one aircraft to anot= her. But need MAC and PHY procedures defined.

 

 Rick: This use case being explored by aeronaut= uical companies, but not always at Layer 2, maybe at IP layer, since diff't= manufacturers radios, diff't security domains, etc.

 

 Eve: thanks for iterating on feedback, look fo= rward to next draft.

 

 

 ## 6 OAM -Fabrice Theoleyre -- 15 mins

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-theoleyre-raw-oam-= support-04

 

Rick: Checking charter to make sure OAM is a charter= item?

Eve: Not listed in milestones, but is in charter.

Rick: So we need an OAM doc, so WG please review, gi= ve authors feedback. Authors are you ready for adoption?

Fabrice: No, not ready yet. Maybe at next IETF.

 

Eve: We need to reconfigure milestones, need to add = an OAM milestone, a bit further out. But need to estimate a time frame with= authors.

 

Rick: looking to rationalize milestones with what is= actually being worked on.

 

Eve: Need to align milestones with charter and deliv= erability capabilities. Rick: Not increasing scope of work.

 

 

## 7 Discussion

 

Pascal: Back to Architecture - give ourselves 4 week= s? Would like work session to discuss between Lou and Rick to figure out ho= w to make suggested changes. Time is tight.

 

Rick: Is 4 weeks too long?

 

Pascal: No, should just adopt, then ask two new auth= ors as only change for 00 revision. Form design team or just authors to do = what Lou and Rick want. Could do just between them and authors. But if we k= now where we're going, don't need to wait four weeks.

 

Rick: Choice of 4 weeks was because no opportunity f= or WG to read latest version, so need time for that. Consider if correct di= rection for arch and framework for RAW.

 

Pascal: Could do the required work in personal contr= ibution.

 

Rick: Two separate questions: Is there more work to = do? Does WG adopt doc?

 

Lou: Reason for 2 week cutoffs - starting at busy ti= me, should allow 4 weeks to allow time for review. Can't say "I publis= hed it today, let's adopt today"

 

Rick: 4 weeks gets us through to start of December h= olidays. Happy to do show of hands, but need time to consider.

 

Pascal: Will take the time it needs. If it's 4 weeks= , OK.

 

Eve: Agree with Pascal - it has been posted, read it= , get comments in after this week, hard next week in US due to holiday, but= should be able to finish before December holidays at latest. Take it to li= st. As long as adoption is within this calendar year, fine.

 

Pascal: People will take it more seriously if call f= or adoption.

 

Rick: Point is to have call for adoption at end of 4= weeks.

 

Eve: Thanks to group for discussion and note taking.=

 

Rick: Might do interim, if not see you at IETF 110..= .

(hopefully the bluesheet is created automatically so= mewhere)

 

Adjourned.

 

 

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