From nobody Mon Nov 1 00:08:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81E13A0D74; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdcnFU8nJ46k; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5A163A10D3; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A178Svl362366 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Nov 2021 08:08:29 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635750510; bh=ggdpe8O/Me63BgbU5mU7Kt0CMfgcdkUUfxM8PXKqAyY=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZWiVjJGgpg0olSsweFWfsamoyJmhMEPp+ETNUkcVm4j6TmtFe8gIsJmK/2IYVSojy FKUbioilG/Hn1M4E3FaDk+aRxBtlh2xT5W9hBpJjMOlZiPy28jtrPW1l2HYRqAN8bH EJDDOrF8mOK1EXXkEY6yvpXAZBE6UmYUbqb2o/Zg= Message-ID: <5319b6ff-9e2a-47c9-b7b9-65f80399d8cc@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 08:08:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------tQcnvT7xQQgUV1EAqt7kiyJC" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:08:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------tQcnvT7xQQgUV1EAqt7kiyJC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------QWPxghAQvbMdmt2BtC05GwWJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley Message-ID: <5319b6ff-9e2a-47c9-b7b9-65f80399d8cc@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> --------------QWPxghAQvbMdmt2BtC05GwWJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Hi Mark,

You and John are saying two slightly different things:

  • You desire a process by which members of the community can some changes through some light weight approval process.
  • John is saying that the RSCE needs to be able to address issues as they perceive them arising.

Both of these issues come together in the end under the auspices of the LLC (RPC).

Under our current system, the LLC has the authority to create light weight approaches to address the sorts of changes you have envisioned.=C2=A0 It does not require any action on the part of the= RSWG or the RSAB, and it barely requires oversight by either.

Let's go to our text.=C2=A0 I am assuming that your PR#101 is goin= g to be accepted because I've heard no objections to it and some support (this doesn't yet incorporate Jay's proposed changes, that I've also heard no objection to):

In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC, or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can document working practices regarding the editorial preparation and final publication and dissemination of RFCs. Examples include:

  • Maintenance of a style guide that defines editorial standards to which RFCs must adhere (see the style guide web page, which extends {{RFC7322}).

  • Instructions regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to the editing and publication process.

  • Guidelines regarding the final structure and layout of published documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ({{RFC7991}}), such guidelines could include clarifications regarding XML elements and attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs.

We are relying on their discretion to properly oversee changes, or at the very least to refer controversial matters to the community.

This is my view as to how the draft stands today.

We could add text that requests that LLC initiate and oversee a process to consider and accept tooling and site changes from the community.=C2=A0 Does the group want such a change?

However, to address John's concern, we should make slight changes to the RSCE text, so that we don't prohibit the RSCE from doing that which you would like other community members to engage in.=C2=A0= That was the substance of the change I proposed.=C2=A0 Does the gro= up want such a change?

Eliot

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-0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 21:50:04 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 10:50:32 -0000 On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, at 07:08, Jay Daley wrote: > In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended > period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever > recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as > the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment How would you distinguish this from a "full" appointment, such that it warrants a note like this? From nobody Mon Nov 1 05:58:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE043A1292 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 89wfBOs4hVpJ for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33DCF3A12F8 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HjY4Y0hbqz6G7T9; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:58:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1635771517; bh=F8/wfQNA+8+rDwGylzdyvcIzqw6mke/1F021vcW9ICk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=S2plmRGWevnrJ25FJx/6Yn90iy5r5E7JPSKuIdQ2jwkg7QCEc22vQvtyelCRpJrKG fi+ViWqy3p7WQ4NJRWEmfMvtOUiNqHbrpxhMzI4OgL+FZAOgbIsoInL0yv7irk3KHi w7qxm6bz8+HmYhJKMK/X44AZ8JaF713dq+YAQC1A= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HjY4W563Zz6G9KZ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 08:58:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 12:58:43 -0000 As I understand it, the RSWG owns policy and strategic direction. It seems to me that it follows that the RSWG does not own the maintenance of the RFC Editor web page. The RPC does. So it is not at all clear that the question below is in the remit of this group. Yours, Joel On 10/31/2021 8:54 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Let's say that I, as a member of the community and a participant in the RSWG, had an idea about how to improve the RFC Editor web site. Maybe it's a change to the CSS, maybe it's an RSS feed, maybe it's something much more substantial. > > I'm willing to do the work (both in terms of convincing people it's a good idea, and actually performing the task). Let's assume that there is no financial cost beyond what we currently pay to host a web site, etc., and the ongoing administrative, maintenance and operational burden is non-existent to slight-but-eminantly-manageable. > > In my mind, the barriers to this kind of community contribution should be as low as is possible *while* still assuring adequate review, consensus, and oversight. > > The first question is whether making that happen demands that an RFC be published. If it does, I think we've failed. > > If it doesn't require an RFC being published, the next question is how that kind of thing is authorised. > > One answer would be for me to petition the RSCE to use their position to enact this. I think that's inappropriate, and against the spirit of what we're doing here. > > Another answer would be for me to go talk to the RPC and convince them to do it. Again, to me there isn't adequate oversight or visibility. > > Another answer is 'some level of discussion + consensus in the RSWG, with buy-in from the RSAB'. Personally, I think that's reasonable. > > Is there another way to do this? Do people disagree with this goal (and if so, why)? > > Cheers, > > >> On 29 Oct 2021, at 6:44 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> We say that the RSCE has the responsibility inter alia to: >> >> >> >> >>> * If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC >> >> And then we say: >> >>> >>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the >>> following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]): >>> >>> * Editing, processing, and publication of RFCs >>> >>> * Publication formats for the RFC Series >>> >>> * Changes to the RFC style guide >>> >>> * Series-wide guidelines regarding document content and quality >>> >>> * Web presence for the RFC Series >>> >>> * Copyright matters related to the RFC Series >>> >>> * Archiving, indexing, and accessibility of RFCs >> >> So here we have an example of indexing. The only issue is when a commitment is needed. In that case, either the RPC has the authority, the ED has the authority, or the ED and RPC must seek the authority. And then the question turns to whom. >> >> Am I missing something? >> >> Eliot >> >> On 29.10.21 06:13, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> This area has been a concern in the back of my mind too. >>> >>> What might be really interesting is if the RSWG were to have a lightweight way* to bless a particular goal or effort -- whether it be by the RPC, the RSCE, or a community member (or group of them). It would still retain change control over the output, of course, but it would enable things like this to make progress. >>> >>> Does that makes sense? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> * I.e., without publishing an RFC. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 29 Oct 2021, at 11:32 am, Jay Daley >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 29/10/2021, at 1:14 PM, John R Levine >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> As a concrete example, we have a longstanding issue that Google Scholar does not index RFCs. I think I know what the problem is, various coding and indexing issues on the rfc-editor web site, and I hope I can get them fixed before my term runs out. But if I don't or I do but then it breaks again, who has the authority to talk to Google and if need be, to make the changes to fix it? ... >>>>>>> >>>>>> The language in sections 4.2 "Implementation-Specific Policies", >>>>>> (proposed to become "Working Practices") and 4.3 "RPC Responsibilities", >>>>>> isn't exclusive. So my answer is that if the problem flagged by the >>>>>> community is "get RFCs into Google Scholar", solving it is then the >>>>>> RPC's job (and how they tackle will probably involve consulting the >>>>>> RSCE). Maybe we need a sentence or two making this clear. >>>>>> >>>>> We have known about the Google Scholar problem for many years. The RPC is as aware of it as anyone, but hasn't been able to fix it because, unsurprisingly, their deep expertise in editorial issues doesn't happen to extend to the details of web indexing. (I happen to know about it because I used to do expert witness work for Google.) >>>>> >>>>> If the RSWG has to rediscover that this is an issue, then tell the RPC to fix it, then hear back that the RPC needs outside help, then consult the RSCE, etc etc. oh never mind. >>>>> >>>>> We need to have people with the authority to solve small problems on their own and assign those problems directly to people who can address them. Running everything through two committees is truly a recipe for paralysis. >>>>> >>>> As I understand it, the new model allows for this because the new model focuses solely on policy, leaving the implementation to the RPC (with support from … and oversight from … and …) As the Google Scholar issue is solely one of distribution, then it is solely an implementation issue. >>>> >>>> We need to remember that only a subset of the role/responsibilities of the RSE are transferring to the RSWG and implementation matters are not part of that. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> John Levine, >>>>> johnl@taugh.com >>>>> , Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY >>>>> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. >>>>> https://jl.ly >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jay Daley >>>> IETF Executive Director >>>> >>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham >>> https://www.mnot.net/ >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Mon Nov 1 07:50:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA8C3A139E for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:50:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=isi.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JyNlD8FkH3jw for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 512193A13A1 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id az37so3995676uab.13 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isi.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sKdAgdIvhIf/rgiRqai5+wGFt1h5ZJi7ZQ4oI9MUXcs=; b=HPMIfR9E5xyKIXgpiUPFLUZICwoBv9mfmiG1w5iQdSxyRiElDolJ3Z0HaHvX+mIXAP qGpviBHdP4uMLA1liUzu0sqeIaeRPtX0jebANaNRQiuStBsuz2DgvlRJAw19NCh4WsyG qXuVA5xbt/nYwxlK0ii3yl/ooCLmv8qnHcHzFO4XzKmZ627JROmfAT8tYIs8rqaIktwo bA41L9IfkB+C4YQsSjuwo7X9InAtvb45sR44gfTWvcdn37DEMd8t771hvV/RUBmQK/PU +9HirWVdC5wpuOd2RTwmJNywKlMNyItt6BJdNzEbPsNicrh12L7pE+tNwr1RzXXJdKcO jZ1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sKdAgdIvhIf/rgiRqai5+wGFt1h5ZJi7ZQ4oI9MUXcs=; b=l24A+afpMvBbsjx7C5W1w2/ybwfvhC0d/APPcSMam7nwmEcIDXz55gn3DIvjZZ7vHD cPbG2kWY9M9dVony0c0uN/HXaZJEix8na9gKqb735xtNZofU/PbTa7NHv0VIAXAqWwyo cpr0LadRvn7p0o6STBHuqOFNPtnjpNWcvxrc1hpeXgHwOq3wGh+v0m4xKZMz2cd98PfM PQq5r2cEPJRk5PT8y+zujSyjwYGWzgc84q8o30Fe7EaEtKsHeiiF4MrSlw9bTHww3IOd c+DcSNugL1+CJvM7Bt+b518dyOjw4hRnnPhP2KXCV0GuJ/sHZJZpZU6rFKmiMuX8sTRh n00w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Gkcppyr9H5ZSrG2JZaFCk7kq2WqSXvlyB30eNVYBX7Trq5kj5 l052q0G/jkVDLLpwctBNvgCU4iwjs0HfjIRY2KMXgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+N0UBUAw4rn/BhMvgqS3IB4iQEeE0tfLs/sIc9J0oWfqWMMoFaqyPjHOpXtM5JlHdL2Cy/eaO4PwilpQUq8g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:374e:: with SMTP id u14mr10605462vst.28.1635778198797; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:49:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Wes Hardaker Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000789d4105cfbb4acc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:50:06 -0000 --000000000000789d4105cfbb4acc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > As I understand it, the RSWG owns policy and strategic direction. > It seems to me that it follows that the RSWG does not own the > maintenance of the RFC Editor web page. The RPC does. > So it is not at all clear that the question below is in the remit of > this group. > A bit of framing to potentially help (and hopefully not hinder): A. RFCs contain content in English (currently) with some structure around how they're composed (RFC7322) and encoded (RFC7991) B. the RFC Editor page, html versions, text versions, pdf versions, etc are about the presentation of that content (insert datatracker and tools team too) It seems to me that this work has been concentrating on A, and that's its perceived remit. And it's up to the RSCE and the RPC to deal with B. The community should likely be able to contribute to both efforts. Mark's good question is about whether B has oversight or not. It will come down to a level of micro-management vs autonomy vs required paperwork for changes (again). -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI --000000000000789d4105cfbb4acc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As I understand it, the RSWG = owns policy and strategic direction.
It seems to me that it follows that the RSWG does not own the
maintenance of the RFC Editor web page.=C2=A0 The RPC does.
So it is not at all clear that the question below is in the remit of
this group.

A bit of framing to potenti= ally help (and hopefully not hinder):

A. RFCs cont= ain content in English (currently) with some structure around how they'= re composed (RFC7322) and encoded (RFC7991)
B. the RFC Editor pag= e, html versions, text versions, pdf versions, etc are about the presentati= on of that content (insert datatracker and tools team too)

It seems to me that this work has been concentrating on A, and tha= t's its perceived remit.=C2=A0 And it's up to the=C2=A0RSCE and the= RPC to deal with B.=C2=A0 The community should likely be able to contribut= e to both efforts.=C2=A0 Mark's good question is about whether B has ov= ersight or not.

It will come down to a level of mi= cro-management vs autonomy=C2=A0vs required paperwork for changes (again).<= /div>
--
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI
--000000000000789d4105cfbb4acc-- From nobody Mon Nov 1 07:57:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798823A13BC for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZOmmh0i3lm6 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 160443A13B9 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hjbk76t7Kz6G9MT; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1635778671; bh=sr2Fen5BOgc7zXeyKGwSjBO4FCYuKkf+DHKmEkSTpPI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=T5yGJ0XjwrTEvWQGHdoOeJrpcJCiQZax0vwYBcF58MbNjx0oEop9KlwJV84BAD94e OczM0EwONAZB0rd1XjQ7PV9aDLKHBXgWeOUPoRXGBeTGZ+GIKHhhhgzH5EqhXSePxF aIRplbfhn6QBdogbqCUCouLrztYLgS3mjj01XcbM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hjbk73XS8z6G9Kd; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:57:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Wes Hardaker Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:57:57 -0000 That framing below is reasonable. However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG. Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body. Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF Executive Director. As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make input a little easier. Yours, Joel On 11/1/2021 10:49 AM, Wes Hardaker wrote: > > As I understand it, the RSWG owns policy and strategic direction. > It seems to me that it follows that the RSWG does not own the > maintenance of the RFC Editor web page.  The RPC does. > So it is not at all clear that the question below is in the remit of > this group. > > > A bit of framing to potentially help (and hopefully not hinder): > > A. RFCs contain content in English (currently) with some structure > around how they're composed (RFC7322) and encoded (RFC7991) > B. the RFC Editor page, html versions, text versions, pdf versions, etc > are about the presentation of that content (insert datatracker and tools > team too) > > It seems to me that this work has been concentrating on A, and that's > its perceived remit.  And it's up to the RSCE and the RPC to deal with > B.  The community should likely be able to contribute to both efforts. > Mark's good question is about whether B has oversight or not. > > It will come down to a level of micro-management vs autonomy vs required > paperwork for changes (again). > -- > Wes Hardaker > USC/ISI > From nobody Mon Nov 1 12:33:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989DA3A11C8 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZKOT_cX0BW7Q for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2C9E3A117F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0EB4A4ED13; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sS5URm85HeV7; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1EC764A4ED0F; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:33:40 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3E99E95F-13CC-469F-BC26-DE2D8BBE50EC@ietf.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 19:33:50 -0000 > On 1/11/2021, at 11:50 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, at 07:08, Jay Daley wrote: >> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an = extended=20 >> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through = whatever=20 >> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts = as=20 >> the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment >=20 > How would you distinguish this from a "full" appointment, such that it = warrants a note like this? This process is limited, as per the first clause, to a situation where = there is already an RSCE but they are unavailable. It does not cover = the situation where the post is empty and so the full appointment = process has to be followed then. Jay >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 1 13:45:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB513A2F65 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7onPR4D5qCZ for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 548763A2F67 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id y20so6728293pfi.4 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lvdpQJF5/gqQJbdJvetNzWmSm2vpABKGw156ReoTj58=; b=klUiFXKKtV91MLsD8mq2N+O7usaAfWc0YptzK5TNMpMH7AAJfvi8NgMKQDjnPiaBHa RSxElqH8uIWFvfrl3QjXPSqWGTvwXMkJD2zA4dV6s5UYwkE/sC+yMSbJiiSMurpgO8TX uYjIdk7I+ixwBQhDug2i2BsQD2ZjiUiV+zvm60kRFtdXshJT5U7PxeSaCm1kLfzMuH6j F6Wwfo5QwNWyie36BLMmWPpxmVSWycLK9AAqdTyEI3i9vRN1+51uW7dd4EYAN/at9pVj 2umh7WlLOP8Zq/awJcyBWooT6Fx+RnEDI0Sj2wNUE4wNIA/E1d1ynd28KnyCAkmMSRim jVuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lvdpQJF5/gqQJbdJvetNzWmSm2vpABKGw156ReoTj58=; b=WqY5zZEdNTCNTn1ukAQ/KsK88LeGgAoqSlGbed3Kuac7tDDtL6INYpkBWHPxoK1dgM AwN86Vh4GXlTZH9uc4QGmQcM/AjHBokqqPKsw4oD3J0gloQ45+J6wmq4XAOVRmORtSph ocZK5FcXB70cf13wlzIMI/4/fQU1Z7OfBtK//y4p2EfICmoO9FQbiZPHpHYGy+iBibxm VNsfm4VPFJPQK/ONb+peTM0OcTTu+vhX1jEWDSwkiT4uyXFSUHb5QahDubD+ZWHHMhw4 5FA8jI1Tsx8hY/ZslDKfT6wrTdJsg+Es/YFxQY6Ro3N5L5cCSKZBa6V00JGa3SloML3n yPyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LtcW81UwxUQj80MCHPBBw48/Eqm7XeQJ78rw0n+mDeRYL1Eqh p6shUWrTRFL+WHLfXLOMvOM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoxNcsOJq5QetwFw4dnliPSe/4Zwe/G5W43kRJg5AilKztDHsKPDKF53DdWZuP4i7H7iIA2A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:c94:b0:480:fcc2:bb2c with SMTP id a20-20020a056a000c9400b00480fcc2bb2cmr12702096pfv.30.1635799517249; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ip8sm327088pjb.9.2021.11.01.13.45.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:45:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, John R Levine , Jay Daley References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <5319b6ff-9e2a-47c9-b7b9-65f80399d8cc@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <2535ba2a-1ea9-cf50-d869-a54d13afb93d@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 09:45:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5319b6ff-9e2a-47c9-b7b9-65f80399d8cc@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:45:23 -0000 > We could add text that requests that LLC initiate and oversee a process=20 to consider and accept tooling and site changes from the community. Does=20 the group want such a change? Harmless, but IMHO already covered by RFC8711. Regards Brian On 01-Nov-21 20:08, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Mark, >=20 > You and John are saying two slightly different things: >=20 > * You desire a process by which members of the community can some cha= nges through some light weight approval process. > * John is saying that the RSCE needs to be able to address issues as = they perceive them arising. >=20 > Both of these issues come together in the end under the auspices of the=20 LLC (RPC). >=20 > Under our current system, the LLC has the authority to create light wei= ght approaches to address the sorts of changes you have envisioned.=C2=A0=20 It does not require any action on the part of the RSWG or the RSAB, and i= t barely requires oversight by either. >=20 > Let's go to our text.=C2=A0 I am assuming that your PR#101 is going to = be accepted because I've heard no objections to it and some support (this=20 doesn't yet incorporate Jay's proposed changes, that I've also heard no o= bjection to): >=20 >> In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC, or to spec= ify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can document working practi= ces regarding the editorial preparation and final publication and dissemi= nation of RFCs. Examples include: >> >> * >> >> Maintenance of a style guide that defines editorial standards to w= hich RFCs must adhere (see the style guide web page , which extends {{RFC7322}). >> >> * >> >> Instructions regarding the file formats that are accepted as input=20 to the editing and publication process. >> >> * >> >> Guidelines regarding the final structure and layout of published d= ocuments. In the context of the XML vocabulary ({{RFC7991}}), such guidel= ines could include clarifications regarding XML elements and attributes u= sed to capture the semantic content of RFCs. >> > We are relying on their discretion to properly oversee changes, or at t= he very least to refer controversial matters to the community. >=20 > This is my view as to how the draft stands today. >=20 > We could add text that requests that LLC initiate and oversee a process=20 to consider and accept tooling and site changes from the community.=C2=A0=20 Does the group want such a change? >=20 > However, to address John's concern, we should make slight changes to th= e RSCE text, so that we don't prohibit the RSCE from doing that which you=20 would like other community members to engage in. That was the substance o= f the change I proposed.=C2=A0 Does the group want such a change? >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 1 14:40:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1993D3A302A for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=oywu7GTD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SjrewNL/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kGWtHQOYsDO1 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B31B3A3013 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A174C3201E3F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 17:40:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=CC2G04mCbqRyLRjtFdfY/voaKiXJ0A5 vEkge1YngQXs=; b=oywu7GTD+ycRNYEszpXmEvqa1Q7a+D0O03yYixfmSHQEPKX sNKbXKel8paLVc9US+oCIdijh7ES1wh6KdNTZa5LGsJGyMV98SPlviGQd5gfiZe0 nPoTaZVML6w2cCEfT8tnpoz4sUle5QSTlrwWW6GI1KMjpAcXPpxs+4xRMeP1+jx+ nzx7z9oyUQUlitjLU8WFlnkVu9E+iDMedEmuujh2ZFbWySov9XZVPeaKbYeIZLJ4 XK688FZVTj8bObMawvB3PJESda5aIiLmnKCLBYSjXa7j37TRy0a+GvFz0UU37J7p JOryYvTWuF+6GsgXkN3TLFenjZlxYeaXId8FKqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=CC2G04 mCbqRyLRjtFdfY/voaKiXJ0A5vEkge1YngQXs=; b=SjrewNL/NZxnGKO+l8/VYc nFo/On8f+AttIkJZKVImRG1M2UfDQ486P5KRKWq3b1WtgFs795eCp9TEN9rUs+Hr 0l4w/3sjmIuYkYFkGywpJLzuYy8sZsgGVFdOezqMdz116PgkMr1rCROiWlCUMvcy BBLkHPrsKtLtntQxr/OWIyRa8FBTkyk2AA5QuyjqCoUqGDD60uJHO6NZHoeIRL/w 9SnuhMzVAGwzQ6/iXJ7kcnsu5TISIMuf80cAPfGLAuVDVgGZzGbO3mncsjc2/IOC ubipy4FWyGhkVarUURU8YsM8/JipoT8UW0B2vCMzK3Yqc0F8TmSuGI/kXEWdSAjw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdehfedgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id DF5453C044D; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:40:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <78605005-de9b-44fb-a452-ded54b3a79cf@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3E99E95F-13CC-469F-BC26-DE2D8BBE50EC@ietf.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> <3E99E95F-13CC-469F-BC26-DE2D8BBE50EC@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 08:39:51 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 21:40:33 -0000 On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 06:33, Jay Daley wrote: >> On 1/11/2021, at 11:50 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, at 07:08, Jay Daley wrote: >>> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended >>> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever >>> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as >>> the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment >> >> How would you distinguish this from a "full" appointment, such that it warrants a note like this? > > This process is limited, as per the first clause, to a situation where > there is already an RSCE but they are unavailable. It does not cover > the situation where the post is empty and so the full appointment > process has to be followed then. Ok, then this is fine. From nobody Mon Nov 1 19:29:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F543A08D6 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=MVpQxEtH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Twe7wLCi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZmjUG0m1HGoZ for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 537FB3A08CB for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229D35C005D; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 22:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 22:29:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=h cURa4t/2vmi1kmzj1Dg3TTKoid1SbqtgJBrSkPa/pI=; b=MVpQxEtH/ycvaMQBQ ykHd4w1eTRznUdZSpIEOnp0naQJOYWgJGPBUMPpAqNCJSxSsLWmkA3df/biCjq3A 343txvM+z6vKrogm187NUkaXmICp4/BKrNSkrTsXWOJqlveIU0y7d82QfXKH0tBC g2vgpz8085lUe0p83rc1tuNl9jreu07XcU04Ivt/OuG+DYpZQ5+7LiDw40i3xx6u pf/a+1IQpFjGeOOAAgR8AA/F8SG4c5kBzW1pViS8LRyU1BaU1pSLj+GN/C8ENtVA J9ANOvi68+QdAEjDTAc0y3c6HKVgcFGzN7adc+ja0a0eXen5KQ7YDcwa5QAslS09 qhnlA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=hcURa4t/2vmi1kmzj1Dg3TTKoid1SbqtgJBrSkPa/ pI=; b=Twe7wLCiUyuRFxq/a/s2ulqYU/s+XacEuq6jr4C2micLw3WEyHaAa/Ek8 SjyPgTxT54/v3AmZMG4nO8al9XE8s3AgmP0P4NEy9HjFHAnTvzl99G3exoahKGFR sfr2pIFmPsLyyQnJ44byNZ1qjj+kXlBaQWBWt74w9K3qlGFqgGWF1m+Fdsy+59sg B3cu+LaWYzTw281JJtHMMFvv+DeKVo1hcVItAt3igckSMxLVn8coGv0XTEZbAz6d eBTOzobXVMtTdRO3pSYvTpj7BRZT4p1fobaajfdx16putz/omgj03ScnhP3twlZ3 hZXo93UlJfp2SLjOwqItpY9Gakqtg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdehgedggedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 22:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:29:01 +1100 Cc: Wes Hardaker , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 02:29:11 -0000 > On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > That framing below is reasonable. >=20 > However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the = details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of = the RSWG. > Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be = within the scope of this body. I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the pages = available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit = fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B = ('presentation'). However, I think it's important that the community has some level of = input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private = -- it needs to see some level of daylight. The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. = People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were = already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if = there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things = out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be = good to hear. > Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in = consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. > We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the = RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF = Executive Director. >=20 > As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and = process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend = itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, = or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to = commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to = make input a little easier. That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Nov 1 20:01:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1003A0944 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12SJNVppmhPk for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F4433A0926 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id e65so18876226pgc.5 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:01:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PRaoqBq0GKfHduk1v01bnRjNNPf/cZZc0Mesh6gxf4A=; b=SWp2+p4+8GGPQA+zVIh5h3p62HNBDeZbntk3Xa6y5tOeLgUv7hUI+eK/QFjAsbJyXm HMjctofbpmmwOUVRkC5FXkTrXGUUtxwRYCy5I368vmbusU5DH6+e1SJ/aIqYhtDqJg8E HcZ3och8nyUza1L0bTeB+WHAc4PkL0Zgg44TLKSZXPWuo3MIkO7TJEmwVGypVorpFE7+ HnJkIFvfOKi9aAxjvWU1vfyygNfKpzzYTUZMdoSH4yXoCbmpkUMUeeIUYq+mHQg4pzDM JjwMIhPVtS4XMt2ftE+B/uTJLMkhlAhkWizzMvpcwAaUdetCopBaPNq4ZoB5hA0+qDOh i83w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PRaoqBq0GKfHduk1v01bnRjNNPf/cZZc0Mesh6gxf4A=; b=TQGKu7zNX4J5IWCwZC/ZHs4E/7DK96SKU3asmQTKsK6ZcCKxuYFuu1rsNIi0pDbaAb rXJwTgdOKMKEfVnjzJBauRJJQ4iTCcgQ8qJiWlhZA4mVNUajsaCUHeGA4awV5dgXA7gX Z/Yj67pfIa/8LDZWZcGKd375h5iWDULZLQ+belGZYlp/zHS1t1r9evTD/nGfDREzNuGf XM6BSAi77i288f8e0F1xRBtAzEzRsWSmy/Bpp9mTLXd4K4zZ3HmR9jdXIiO/UHULMda5 bO/7uQs58lQCS+71ga1jd4wO+j9zLR+LJ6iR478fKnuu6tMhroz/wIV1CFSAvx1ER5VZ gwvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531F5gtBrbJmiYN+ksW0v94tUFcQVDQTo9ZWCrINQA8jkMDLZIi8 z8nF1DZl5mOLe3z7ptGuDS4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJybb1y2SOrYYEPpKyfFSe1zUntlaoyQZC73gZQzccaGOBtgrE7+O20JbqHtA8EaZ6GS9N6Prw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:174e:b0:43b:80ba:99c8 with SMTP id j14-20020a056a00174e00b0043b80ba99c8mr33191631pfc.51.1635822061634; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm687839pjt.46.2021.11.01.20.00.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:01:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Wes Hardaker References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:00:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 03:01:09 -0000 Mark, On 02-Nov-21 15:29, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> That framing below is reasonable. >> >> However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG. >> Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body. > > I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B ('presentation'). > > However, I think it's important that the community has some level of input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private -- it needs to see some level of daylight. > > The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be good to hear. I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of scope because RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community reached rough consensus on that document, they handed the problem over to the implementation of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed to yesterday: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its expectations for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its contractor(s), according to that paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, because RFC8711 refers exclusively to "the IETF community", but I'd be happy to see such text. However, if we don't like RFC8711, that is not in our remit. That's all I'm trying to say. Brian > > >> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF Executive Director. >> >> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make input a little easier. > > That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Mon Nov 1 20:25:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C823A0970 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wrLKLx8CmIaQ for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 250603A0972 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HjwJF53SMz6G9MH; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1635823501; bh=KBz8MIv1i0KQ4Z7pYdWjSxyrIWj0SohUxMdUAl9iu/A=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=eKZqvbookVdl+oq8vei6Z/E3iUzcCP1pinRHP/sE0txKUr8rvUkAmeeReVAtnIzE3 vhPlTw2IeNUUKUaKPujlK5UmUvWj/ljIESR1XalvMTqUs2zq56BtuZ0G0zGvkz1Uzo 1EjNswMJxXlpgHki5+YM6mwlRu9cfJM/wqOxWqg4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HjwJF1hjKz6G9Jf; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40c95a5c-91dd-7b30-ed07-054bd2370e89@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:24:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 03:25:07 -0000 Giving the RSWG purview to work on adjustments to the UI of the RFC Editor web site is a significant change to the scoping that I understood we agreed to, which was policy and strategy. I strongly object to such a change in scope. Yours, Joel On 11/1/2021 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> That framing below is reasonable. >> >> However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG. >> Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body. > > I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B ('presentation'). > > However, I think it's important that the community has some level of input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private -- it needs to see some level of daylight. > > The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be good to hear. > > >> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF Executive Director. >> >> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make input a little easier. > > That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Mon Nov 1 20:37:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548E03A0983 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6UCb7mqmwRS for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 844D33A097F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id h16so13369847qtk.0 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:37:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=eqQezjvm/l8b/d2hStjL1PYpV+meWe62GUcGAaeaZLY=; b=FGe+rLoQTWARNd3vQbBgeW5cnAHHlIWUbD13q4f4+n23WPmP/LWffJ4Mbq1jcdfdPB Yt/wCtURMUiaIzDzrUoZMJU6YH//h+AkesjR6qfuGFOWEdCx6duNrV746+iHeBCoronV hPCeEhXRssqoYyRJeSsl5NgmZswRs03HMXgQ+ekDXodSgSPsdXYX/BzXg6clhqacb5jJ n535CjuPZvaqKfSAmjeTLmhXVCrJ91z6R5R6bARym4e2s1hNCdvz0DsDDifPx1+r98SC OFh94jqNk/1cQ+qqxPzz+uBK5adCGnrfalPZOowb2z8V3RJXIYuunLmmhr4M2oWl5oGY G0Aw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=eqQezjvm/l8b/d2hStjL1PYpV+meWe62GUcGAaeaZLY=; b=ANh1wH8ub0Sc5uZG/z1KlGqGunRLLXThH74nfkB/TMPaGTMbsEw9sT0yABoon3aeqZ c0STp0evz4ID6d9nLMNDEfPVGYwnKQs89Jn0I4ZfP8VUWHqHqC8Ri8+V7hDZrCz+HU6J SZ95Aqcf3Be0+b4hNPLud82r3YioCsWRcwYWQGTwnNMiYuPR61VSfFGazT8exgYqFCCh TswwY1QCD6Mma1/dJRy1nrAKSiLyPaeTO4saID7CGImLxDcUVwTJiPO2bBqu2kg/PTrx ydNmR/0qDaQJB8Yi+l1eUe1zHR/53T5dw2RkW/hA9zUZYHeSoPEyWqeg8sc1J3xXSrsF AKKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533J6+ip6blFmJgS5FsEUmlfVEWUsYbWs7afnXwr4RSMRGSX5soL JNCHlM1ewTLaND8U3QzAtkg78obHAgfpO0jsgM0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfd7hKGVwkFnRYNUvVnE3FjMXvn6QrgehWWz9CiGn6UA+iQWMrEUnrsE1Hj8yUorkOYOKIHw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:58c5:: with SMTP id u5mr18818565qta.399.1635824248422; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e10sm12067871qtx.66.2021.11.01.20.37.27 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ROEyw5VifPqEtY3Y9O65d0eQ" Message-ID: <5ee01b48-2610-205b-d714-d2d2457d0845@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:37:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 03:37:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ROEyw5VifPqEtY3Y9O65d0eQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/1/2021 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > That framing below is reasonable. > > However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG. > Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body. > > I agree that the RPC + LLC have_responsibility_ for keeping the pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B ('presentation'). > > However, I think it's important that the community has some level of input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private -- it needs to see some level of daylight. > > The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope*is*. So if there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be good to hear. AIRC we spent a *lot* of time on delineating and agreeing to the boundaries of the RSWG and the current draft describes those limits.  Strategic policy as described in RSWG authored and RSAB approved documents is how the RSWG affects the RFC series.  It might be OK to have the discussion in the RSWG with the understanding that the tactical decisions are not made there.  But given the general mission creep of most working groups, and the lack of established (in terms of precedent and common agreement) fences between the strategic and tactical, I would object to any discussion in the RSWG that's not targeted at creating policy documents for the editorial series and any attempts at management-like input to either the RPC or the RSCE from the RSWG. So if the RSWG wants input, it gets people to write documents, follows its process to get community consensus (including outside non-RSWG commentary and adjustments), and gets the RSAB to approve it, and the LLC to scope the work for the RPC and RSCE contracts that are driven by such documents.   I think that's satisfies Mark's "community has some level of input".  That said, that process is by design and definition not quick, and we need a process for things that the IAB had previously delegated to the RSE that require quicker turn around.   The RSWG/RSAB can always write a document to override those decisions. To Joel's point - the RSWG *might* be able to direct where the responsibility lies, but I actually think that's a meta issue that this group needs to clarify and that it probably should not be subject to later RSAB/RSWG twiddling. Think of it this way:  We as a group are proposing a structure for the delegation of a number of authorities and responsibilities  to the RSWG/RSAB/RSCE  from the IAB, IESG and LLC which structure those groups will have to approve as part of this document publication.  How RFC series responsibilities have been split up and specified by the to-be-published first document should probably not be subject to change by the internal processes of the RSWG/RSAB without the further approval of those groups.  We may want to make that a bit clearer to avoid having the possibility of the RSWG throwing out most of the discussion and hard work we've done within a few years of formation.  Or at least provide some minimum number of years where certain things are fixed so we can get some experience to inform any future changes. If there's a need to do the changes sooner, we re-involve the delegating organizations and get their approval. As an aside, I really miss the old interface to the mailing list archives.  Maybe I'm missing something, but trying to move back and look at the early threads without having a specific subject or phrase is painful and time consuming. --------------ROEyw5VifPqEtY3Y9O65d0eQ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/1/2021 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

That framing below is reasonable.

However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG.
Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body.

I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B ('presentation').

However, I think it's important that the community has some level of input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private -- it needs to see some level of daylight.

The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be good to hear.

AIRC we spent a *lot* of time on delineating and agreeing to the boundaries of the RSWG and the current draft describes those limits.  Strategic policy as described in RSWG authored and RSAB approved documents is how the RSWG affects the RFC series.  It might be OK to have the discussion in the RSWG with the understanding that the tactical decisions are not made there.  But given the general mission creep of most working groups, and the lack of established (in terms of precedent and common agreement) fences between the strategic and tactical, I would object to any discussion in the RSWG that's not targeted at creating policy documents for the editorial series and any attempts at management-like input to either the RPC or the RSCE from the RSWG.

So if the RSWG wants input, it gets people to write documents, follows its process to get community consensus (including outside non-RSWG commentary and adjustments), and gets the RSAB to approve it, and the LLC to scope the work for the RPC and RSCE contracts that are driven by such documents.   I think that's satisfies Mark's "community has some level of input".  That said, that process is by design and definition not quick, and we need a process for things that the IAB had previously delegated to the RSE that require quicker turn around.   The RSWG/RSAB can always write a document to override those decisions.

To Joel's point - the RSWG *might* be able to direct where the responsibility lies, but I actually think that's a meta issue that this group needs to clarify and that it probably should not be subject to later RSAB/RSWG twiddling.  

Think of it this way:  We as a group are proposing a structure for the delegation of a number of authorities and responsibilities  to the RSWG/RSAB/RSCE  from the IAB, IESG and LLC which structure those groups will have to approve as part of this document publication.  How RFC series responsibilities have been split up and specified by the to-be-published first document should probably not be subject to change by the internal processes of the RSWG/RSAB without the further approval of those groups.  We may want to make that a bit clearer to avoid having the possibility of the RSWG throwing out most of the discussion and hard work we've done within a few years of formation.  Or at least provide some minimum number of years where certain things are fixed so we can get some experience to inform any future changes.  If there's a need to do the changes sooner, we re-involve the delegating organizations and get their approval.


As an aside, I really miss the old interface to the mailing list archives.  Maybe I'm missing something, but trying to move back and look at the early threads without having a specific subject or phrase is painful and time consuming.




--------------ROEyw5VifPqEtY3Y9O65d0eQ-- From nobody Mon Nov 1 20:44:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5C33A0995 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Zcdr2ru7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SUtOqa6P Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFEEBe3eVpt2 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC2CE3A098D for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F42A5C018B; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 23:44:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=A 4nhpj/k+lo8aYk5bQjgXEZWlA4dzU2lDd6keJ4iucw=; b=Zcdr2ru7BFp/jaupn es8fuHgLRwDoSNXpNuZzeZdcOHp/2qVQP7jrKcwb3FRP2pLjjlf7Lnl3xadRZ8YI Mb2lUy8305Y6IIChKwRHoJCw2ACGGLxlw9Cx4vm7qgr5+di75kSDqD90eR89rwVr avLa7IBYbrLqNHdyaKArl8YbZFyUUiTURWDDdCtc7qY0xEjSPIT9quG6hwuhx8fj 96TB5Pk7tHdt8X9NEQlz4qELTQ4ahAtYaK6HMafhYR68TvqzA6rYSUM9SPXGiTu4 IjzgvNc1dh5Ap5HDQgp/dNmttZLa21ZLvj+vTvn1olfmggyCFZiKZf8Caivau60K wYCSw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=A4nhpj/k+lo8aYk5bQjgXEZWlA4dzU2lDd6keJ4iu cw=; b=SUtOqa6P96xLtmF3aII1cLowYQEA9OXodHmQuAgCOm2gYpuLPWTYOffhD 7/B8MQxc5eJtd+iq6I+RUP3tbwTTnNX1e7OlQ/2GuOsyvpMEesHi5UL5DmGc9iAS 3vwScj8jA4LdirOOdMbdGkJVNd18L+1JxiwTQPi8rfaL9XJdsjAnJnhF0xFoicKW uvRf4s54zk90FvMRsJj+YFvaw7eF4clhdJMez03zxu4pD+AhC8Rq706/jEjiOX3F rcUEVENBglQkjRByCs/6t0WZ87RSLKT/D4YMrC25Uzgqopy7lj6LDc6gvxjz+Ov1 V2I06C7zH04F+Yd4RmksDY3pEcDxA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdehgedgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeelieffudeiledvieegfefgvdfhhedvkedvhefgteefteffvddukedtheehvefg feenucffohhmrghinheprhhftgdqvgguihhtohhrrdhorhhgpdhivghtfhdrohhrghdpmh hnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhf rhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:44:08 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 03:44:19 -0000 Hi Brian, > On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:00 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of = scope because RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community = reached rough consensus on that document, they handed the problem over = to the implementation of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed = to yesterday: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 Paragraph four mentions the RFC Editor as an example of historical = benefit seen due to the IETF's use of contractors, and then paragraph = five then talks about the IETF's history of community involvement, = documenting an expectation that the LLC will respect the IETF = community's wishes -- possibly requiring documentation of consensus. I read this as imprecise use of 'IETF community' in 8711 -- especially = since a distinction with the greater RFC Series Community had yet to be = strenuously and successfully argued for. Regardless of that, this text does not prohibit the LLC from considering = other factors.=20 Nor does it give the LLC authority over such decisions -- section 5.1 is = couched in terms of *responsibilities*, not authorities, and all other = mentions of the RFC Editor in 8711 merely characterise the LLC as a = source of 'financial support for the operation of the RFC Editor.'=20 For example, when the IESG wants a change to www.ietf.org, they make = that known to the LLC, and the LLC has the responsibility to carry that = out. Of course, the LLC can and does adjust and improve the site based = upon their expertise and observations, but ultimate authority resides in = the IESG. In our current model, there is no clear role or body that has = authority over the content of rfc-editor.org. So I think it's too strong to say that 8711 puts out of scope any = involvement of the RSWG in defining requirements for or even offering = improvements to e.g., the RFC Editor web site. And, it would be = exceedingly odd for us to effectively convene the RFC Series Community = in the RSWG but then say that it had no input into or authority over how = the RFC Series is presented.=20 > We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its = expectations for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its = contractor(s), according to that paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, = because RFC8711 refers exclusively to "the IETF community", but I'd be = happy to see such text. However, if we don't like RFC8711, that is not = in our remit. That's all I'm trying to say. Understood, but see above. >=20 > Brian >=20 >=20 >=20 >>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in = consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to = the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / = IETF Executive Director. >>>=20 >>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools = and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would = lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the = datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would = hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system = just to make input a little easier. >> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Nov 1 20:44:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CD23A09CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=o6azr0LI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Roatortj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIv4dNzv9ik1 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77B7B3A09D6 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEA73201C29; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 23:44:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=F 18U0V5qskrY72/GgqHpU8rylI0okvdiKyG0xWaDgdE=; b=o6azr0LIPt+LrndFm oGbfuJSzlXqLNMOSxQKzmAkKVdnaMmBaXr2Z7f9cFY3/r4lC6frfJGzdn7i2VVGa 1an0D4LjttGOjr/Wb2esdZsqDQDnY5cYuE6VoWv8Uc2m6+0RWDEfMuzKIY9HSK1t SNsRpzNhCBPFQQH2gv6470w8dWwXtnOKUcYILrhdaKsj5t2/jx9JDbwFEPyyG3ol QyPIzRi+BvD+UHgycVxfq0lRSDjjyaSp5MIYSBEGpSEX9MGr2bRVxyttHr3L5hq7 xh4yNDiz3xrJBut5jAuPlLrJ3o1x9H/tcccn9BqNfJxaw2hY1I/rzId3qB+B5c7z pZwlA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=F18U0V5qskrY72/GgqHpU8rylI0okvdiKyG0xWaDg dE=; b=RoatortjegTR/xNv1F+j5Bl8bLTadZIuAZDISVBovDAB6FjcvEsTuIiWm E9QTOX6p4Pqq4bAIw+6x1aBnuXF24YTJI+MrjHP+GSEPnOY0DL0iJgSbJEafqyNo jOlEaYyHIWGSmbs6uAkKAUVLZToqYfEvDNxvQMBLdiMAV4ro6KifYgdm/hKk9Phy Sd3pv1UpxPOnkMU9Xh2SK1dI8jxd8nzPZmpoPNEi8DY7nWY1+AwEUDJ5imuik7+f 8hXUuGxj9mKakrPljH4nph+fGGJtZ8im9T4QnNOzwIhAJH9s/Zb3ms4On77BrqOg Vtgmhp5pDkMvnyEyQ/mopx7lN+xaQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdehgedgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtue dtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhoth esmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 1 Nov 2021 23:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <40c95a5c-91dd-7b30-ed07-054bd2370e89@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:44:21 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DFD2D1F-597B-4901-A8B2-267C12B713A4@mnot.net> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <40c95a5c-91dd-7b30-ed07-054bd2370e89@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 03:44:31 -0000 That may have been your understanding, but it was not mine. > On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:24 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Giving the RSWG purview to work on adjustments to the UI of the RFC = Editor web site is a significant change to the scoping that I understood = we agreed to, which was policy and strategy. >=20 > I strongly object to such a change in scope. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/1/2021 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >>>=20 >>> That framing below is reasonable. >>>=20 >>> However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the = details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of = the RSWG. >>> Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be = within the scope of this body. >> I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the = pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a = bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B = ('presentation'). >> However, I think it's important that the community has some level of = input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private = -- it needs to see some level of daylight. >> The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. = People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were = already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if = there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things = out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be = good to hear. >>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in = consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to = the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / = IETF Executive Director. >>>=20 >>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools = and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would = lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the = datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would = hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system = just to make input a little easier. >> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 2 00:27:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D6F3A0E00 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 00:27:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch 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bh=Jg8HE8RAOQ/0nBJXKvPMRbNQYs8jT2VfEqcqlibD7PA=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=hUu+7+cDjK07r0Z63c1eK3FxpuAg4qJKag+143PlkQyFGUGXvy+tfz27Fe47im3qK NTr1vvVgro9wlJovP8nu7HkT0GNwq/uR96P6QPCaQKxJeqqbRuqptjodO/is9q/93F GhtzGU1k6lBQnSID1pj0tACEtp5K+g9zCeMzBOvA= Message-ID: <380a4fd5-01e8-f5fc-90af-3e19dadbc275@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:27:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------qtLumb6bCSbuv0woSgdUlMER" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 07:27:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------qtLumb6bCSbuv0woSgdUlMER Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4PLVm4BAqmt343gE2n0WAFst"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <380a4fd5-01e8-f5fc-90af-3e19dadbc275@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> 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BF6SvnFrKg9h65TAelv7G+0NCIqIB0nIbo+FvZUMu6ru4TJ81pKr+4QC+hgMS+Ird5hDGTVOWknQ qrT8gp+0d+sOPLxhSm80+iQVReBxYan11S43gIXYO6F6TUnhplXwm+jaqzf0r0eQ385K8cSi1Ix2 sUJMB0xPB4DFW0LEXKFT3l02EItz/NiXfXC8Tafs5Q== =vRlE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------qtLumb6bCSbuv0woSgdUlMER-- From nobody Tue Nov 2 01:36:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D633A0F0C for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmxi3qqpLb5w for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B3223A0F04 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2041F4A4ED05; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NCF3SQOZwFLF; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE6524A4ECE7; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 01:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:36:15 +1300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 08:36:27 -0000 =EF=BB=BFMark So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about improving the R= FC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about improving the RFC Editor s= ervice as Eliot describes it? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org > On 2/11/2021, at 4:44 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > =EF=BB=BFHi Brian, >=20 >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:00 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of scope b= ecause RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community reached roug= h consensus on that document, they handed the problem over to the implementa= tion of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed to yesterday: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 >=20 > Paragraph four mentions the RFC Editor as an example of historical benefit= seen due to the IETF's use of contractors, and then paragraph five then tal= ks about the IETF's history of community involvement, documenting an expecta= tion that the LLC will respect the IETF community's wishes -- possibly requi= ring documentation of consensus. >=20 > I read this as imprecise use of 'IETF community' in 8711 -- especially sin= ce a distinction with the greater RFC Series Community had yet to be strenuo= usly and successfully argued for. >=20 > Regardless of that, this text does not prohibit the LLC from considering o= ther factors.=20 >=20 > Nor does it give the LLC authority over such decisions -- section 5.1 is c= ouched in terms of *responsibilities*, not authorities, and all other mentio= ns of the RFC Editor in 8711 merely characterise the LLC as a source of 'fin= ancial support for the operation of the RFC Editor.'=20 >=20 > For example, when the IESG wants a change to www.ietf.org, they make that k= nown to the LLC, and the LLC has the responsibility to carry that out. Of co= urse, the LLC can and does adjust and improve the site based upon their expe= rtise and observations, but ultimate authority resides in the IESG. In our c= urrent model, there is no clear role or body that has authority over the con= tent of rfc-editor.org. >=20 > So I think it's too strong to say that 8711 puts out of scope any involvem= ent of the RSWG in defining requirements for or even offering improvements t= o e.g., the RFC Editor web site. And, it would be exceedingly odd for us to e= ffectively convene the RFC Series Community in the RSWG but then say that it= had no input into or authority over how the RFC Series is presented.=20 >=20 >=20 >> We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its expectations= for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its contractor(s), according to t= hat paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, because RFC8711 refers exclusivel= y to "the IETF community", but I'd be happy to see such text. However, if we= don't like RFC8711, that is not in our remit. That's all I'm trying to say.= >=20 > Understood, but see above. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consultati= on with the RSOC and RSAG. >>>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the R= SCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF Exec= utive Director. >>>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and p= rocess used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend itsel= f to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, or if some= different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit as part of t= his work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make input a little ea= sier. >>> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Tue Nov 2 06:54:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A403A11CD for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:54:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fr-nziURsMi for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13A823A11CB for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HkBGM6ky9z1ntRn; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:54:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1635861259; bh=tGnDsqVsA5YyJW8/79IgV+9r7gFhQyOSlMcFv5hGqMs=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=o6yRBDFYgngCv2O7rj05TgCYIWBwuNNvJeTEqpuj5OrwGUOkqpP0kAXxM/lTxRAak goQdfcxD7te7eTI0KNc09SsX/Ux+mlNS33kiVrXftxUsfYqLjrClfpxFXKftDxaxYd SDi9SnhGsKNpRvjUM07/48imh1odiy/AeklGuu6I= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HkBGM26w5z1nv1S; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45d86169-b193-d5fa-c28d-d6850c3349fc@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 09:54:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <40c95a5c-91dd-7b30-ed07-054bd2370e89@joelhalpern.com> <4DFD2D1F-597B-4901-A8B2-267C12B713A4@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <4DFD2D1F-597B-4901-A8B2-267C12B713A4@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:54:25 -0000 From the front of the current Internet Draft, which I thought we had all agreed on: The RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) shall formulate proposals regarding policies that govern the RFC Series. Adjustments to the RFC Editor web page are not policy. Yours, Joel On 11/1/2021 11:44 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > That may have been your understanding, but it was not mine. > >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:24 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> Giving the RSWG purview to work on adjustments to the UI of the RFC Editor web site is a significant change to the scoping that I understood we agreed to, which was policy and strategy. >> >> I strongly object to such a change in scope. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/1/2021 10:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 1:57 am, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> >>>> That framing below is reasonable. >>>> >>>> However, I still say that B, that is performing oversight over the details of things like the RFC Editor web pages, is outside the scope of the RSWG. >>>> Having said that, assigning where the responsibility lies may be within the scope of this body. >>> I agree that the RPC + LLC have _responsibility_ for keeping the pages available and functional (you used 'ownership' earlier, which is a bit fuzzy). I also agree that they can act proactively on B ('presentation'). >>> However, I think it's important that the community has some level of input. I also think that it's important that it not be ad hoc or private -- it needs to see some level of daylight. >>> The RSWG seems well suited as a venue for that kind of discussion. People are saying that it's 'outside the scope of RSWG' as if RSWG were already operating -- we're here to determine what the scope *is*. So if there's a reasoned argument as to why RSWG should consider such things out of scope instead of just assertions that it isn't in scope, it'd be good to hear. >>>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / IETF Executive Director. >>>> >>>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make input a little easier. >>> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Tue Nov 2 07:09:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2823A11DC; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Oty-eyzF-Pm; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDC5B3A11D5; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b200547d38c039b87b35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:547d:38c0:39b8:7b35]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mhuT3-0002kL-Fl; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 15:08:49 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:08:46 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" , Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635862135;fc25c5e3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mhuT3-0002kL-Fl Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:09:01 -0000 Yes, I think there are two points missing here. A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct any request = that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or entities = to reply. I thought that would maybe still be the RSCE, or do we need a = dedicated person at the RPC to be responsible that any request gets = relied to? And B) who would be the right person to e.g. talk to other publishing = organisation or publishing related activities, such as applying for a = DOI number. I was also assuming that would still be the RSCE as that=E2=80= =99s the person with the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again = someone from the RPC as well but, again, I think it would be good to = clarify a but more what/who the appropriate body is. I think it would be better to be a bit more concrete in the document but = this is also not a hard point for me; just saying this is not very well = specified. Mirja =20 > On 29. Oct 2021, at 23:33, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Mirja >=20 > We currently have: >=20 > 4.5. External Representation >=20 > =46rom time to time, individuals or organizations external to the IETF = and the broader RFC Series community may have questions about the RFC = Series. Such inquiries should be directed to the = rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias and then handled by the = appropriate bodies(e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (e.g., RSWG chairs, = RSCE). > Do you think it also needs something like =E2=80=9CAll other external = representation of the RFC Series should be handled by the appropriate = bodies or individuals=E2=80=9D ? >=20 > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director=20 > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >> On 30/10/2021, at 9:46 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> On 30/10/2021, at 9:21 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOne comment below. >>>=20 >>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 22:14, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think your proposed change makes sense. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the = RPC might flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for = support to fix it if additional technical expertise is needed, it could = still be the RSCE that could talk to Google, if needed. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, whoever is best suited.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC = Series=E2=80=9D and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we = didn=E2=80=99t resolve this issue fully? We could re-add that point to = the list RSCE responsibilities or is that not what is intended? >>>>=20 >>>> No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the = series though they may be *a* representative. We did resolve this - we = agreed that all we need to say is that such queries come into the the = RPC who dispatch them as appropriate. >>>=20 >>> I was not reading or proposing this as *the* representation of the = series. But rather a one person that might be qualified to go out there = in the world and talk about the series. >>=20 >> Sorry, I assumed you meant *the* representative if it=E2=80=99s not = also added to the other roles.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director=20 >> exec-director@ietf.org >>>=20 >>> I didn=E2=80=99t remember the conclusion of that discussion and what = you say in not mentioned in the draft. If that was the conclusion (which = it fine for me) we should explicitly spell this out in the document. >>>=20 >>> Mirja >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regarding the more high level policy question about accessibility, = I would think this are covered by the RPC responsibilities: >>>>>=20 >>>>> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement >>>>> regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the >>>>> dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and >>>>> accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D >>>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that = explicitly notes that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing = with external archives.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I think = we still rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us (the = community) and the RPC which are the important venues. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes agreed.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Jay >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Jay Daley >>>> IETF Executive Director=20 >>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mirja >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>>>>>> * If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC >>>>>>>> And then we say: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted >>>>>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document is = that the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not just = sitting there waiting to be asked (by whom?). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I = could see how the text reads that way. My suggestion would be to make = two changes: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Remove "If requested," >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> And >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to "Matters = on which the RSCE might provide guidance" >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ??? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?) >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Tue Nov 2 07:12:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157933A11E2 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6dVSAH18YyG for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63BD33A11E1 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b200547d38c039b87b35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:547d:38c0:39b8:7b35]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mhuWg-0006Rb-Mv; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 15:12:34 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:12:33 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0ABD48E5-6A8D-4D80-B89B-D565B02B291C@kuehlewind.net> References: To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635862356;2b0a3895; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mhuWg-0006Rb-Mv Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:12:41 -0000 See below. > On 30. Oct 2021, at 00:43, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 30-Oct-21 05:04, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Hi all >> I opened this issue: >> #109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org = in stone? >> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109 >=20 > OLD: > Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. >=20 > NEW: > Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list or its = equivalent. That might be good enough. >=20 >> To check whether we want to hard-code the rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org = list into this draft. >> However, I have one more question: >> The respective section only specifies that calls must be sent to = rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org and may be send elsewhere. I know this point = touches on the hard question of who is the community but I would = expected that we would at least try to ensure to consult with those = communities that we know about. >> My assumption was that maybe the stream managers, potentially not = necessarily for all documents but based on their judgement, would also = send our calls to their respectively community. So maybe to last-call in = the IETF, to at least the iab@iab.org list but maybe even to other IAB = lists, and for the IRTF maybe the IRSG. >> Is this something we should write down as well or are my expectations = wrong? >=20 > I wouldn't write down the details because those details may change in = future. Just make it clear that we want wide distribution. Maybe just >=20 > OLD: > The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities... >=20 > NEW: > The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices widely to other = communities... I don=E2=80=99t think that makes any difference. I don=E2=80=99t want to = micro-manage but I believe if we are not more concrete here, the right = things might not happen. As I said, I personally thought that e.g. using the IETF last call list = would be appropriate. If that is an expectation also from others in the = group, we need to write it down to make it happen. However, the first step here is to understand what the expectation of = the group is. Mirja >=20 > Brian >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 2 07:28:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB95E3A11EC for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQH9rhMSPkfm for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 106C93A11E4 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122333.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 1A2BLB0q010245; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:28:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=sBy3tBLAmU2todM/YM/anrdpBXGwSZm+oIgd5ZoQxxU=; b=OfBTE5EQJLXZkRpdhQruXnEMzDVcl8UIdzIAUQXScyE1yKRDSIBa31Xk8m6ZNzESy40X Fc4jnFLuYg/Qwow2GQ4M3w3d9eXY1NgO8HgVXiQWcu0OJqzLkHEAz/NwR3rTg+zOneHW iOdzWShVg4W1p46WwjNylmmvYbhBhBtX12c3g0oV5PdlcP4si6KLhx4vCBaZGEJ74cdu 2jnmTzJbQ7R7xNuFBWZ0AzEuV4+aDbNw4rffY/cP0rcan386eKyoh3JxkDLPeeT4pap+ Ff+YIu+Hw1vs4aCoCq2I6YNU8RfprBoCXrIzGdWyjru6yrRBCdNQa1qTOfMa4NE1rtWh oA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3c2t3ghcfj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:28:47 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1A2EJYxQ026156; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:28:03 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3c1rn8mn2g-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 07:28:03 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 10:26:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 10:26:11 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Mark Nottingham CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure Thread-Index: AQHXzBoKh4kaVJOT3ESs15KpE0LYXavpN0YAgAAnloCAAAUGAIAAPbMAgAA6vgCABER7gIAAymcAgAAe9QCAAAJcgIAAwR6AgAAPpICAAAVpgIAAqmqA///F2gA= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:26:11 +0000 Message-ID: <83F507BD-B9D6-45DE-98B0-2C00CE4DE557@akamai.com> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <40c95a5c-91dd-7b30-ed07-054bd2370e89@joelhalpern.com> <4DFD2D1F-597B-4901-A8B2-267C12B713A4@mnot.net> <45d86169-b193-d5fa-c28d-d6850c3349fc@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <45d86169-b193-d5fa-c28d-d6850c3349fc@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.54.21101001 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-02_05:2021-11-01, 2021-11-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=985 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111020085 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: qp03qgPWKUjCraS0yXcI72gB6tSuy_JR X-Proofpoint-GUID: qp03qgPWKUjCraS0yXcI72gB6tSuy_JR X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-02_08,2021-11-02_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=943 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111020085 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:28:55 -0000 DQo+ICAgIEFkanVzdG1lbnRzIHRvIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIHdlYiBwYWdlIGFyZSBub3QgcG9s aWN5Lg0KDQpNYWtlcyBzZW5zZSB0byBtZS4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Nov 2 07:52:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CA73A1219 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g8kCO7sN9bsl for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB63B3A1217 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 07:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p5dec2ba9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([93.236.43.169] helo=[192.168.178.42]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mhv98-0002vz-SD; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 15:52:18 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:52:17 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635864744;13561932; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mhv98-0002vz-SD Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 14:52:30 -0000 I agree with Mark that the _authority_ of the _content_ of the RFC = editor page should not be with the LLC. I could actually see the RSAB to have this authority, as the RSCE is as = members and the stream representatives are the (only) customers. I think = I would trust the RSAB to decide if a change touches on policy and would = need to be discussed in the RSWG or not. However, for me Marks originally proposal was more about tooling (which = might be the confusing part here). For RFC-tooling-related question, so = far we used rfc-interest@ for discussion and I think that works well, so = I don=E2=80=99t think we should changes it. And it also seems that LLC = actually has the authority about tooling (that support the needs of the = various bodies we have). Not sure if others agree to this view but I at least think this = discussion has shown that we need to clarify this in the draft as we = seem to have different ideas in this group. > On 2. Nov 2021, at 04:44, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, >=20 >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:00 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 >> I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of = scope because RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community = reached rough consensus on that document, they handed the problem over = to the implementation of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed = to yesterday: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 >=20 > Paragraph four mentions the RFC Editor as an example of historical = benefit seen due to the IETF's use of contractors, and then paragraph = five then talks about the IETF's history of community involvement, = documenting an expectation that the LLC will respect the IETF = community's wishes -- possibly requiring documentation of consensus. >=20 > I read this as imprecise use of 'IETF community' in 8711 -- especially = since a distinction with the greater RFC Series Community had yet to be = strenuously and successfully argued for. >=20 > Regardless of that, this text does not prohibit the LLC from = considering other factors.=20 >=20 > Nor does it give the LLC authority over such decisions -- section 5.1 = is couched in terms of *responsibilities*, not authorities, and all = other mentions of the RFC Editor in 8711 merely characterise the LLC as = a source of 'financial support for the operation of the RFC Editor.'=20 >=20 > For example, when the IESG wants a change to www.ietf.org, they make = that known to the LLC, and the LLC has the responsibility to carry that = out. Of course, the LLC can and does adjust and improve the site based = upon their expertise and observations, but ultimate authority resides in = the IESG. In our current model, there is no clear role or body that has = authority over the content of rfc-editor.org. >=20 > So I think it's too strong to say that 8711 puts out of scope any = involvement of the RSWG in defining requirements for or even offering = improvements to e.g., the RFC Editor web site. And, it would be = exceedingly odd for us to effectively convene the RFC Series Community = in the RSWG but then say that it had no input into or authority over how = the RFC Series is presented.=20 >=20 >=20 >> We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its = expectations for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its = contractor(s), according to that paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, = because RFC8711 refers exclusively to "the IETF community", but I'd be = happy to see such text. However, if we don't like RFC8711, that is not = in our remit. That's all I'm trying to say. >=20 > Understood, but see above. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in = consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to = the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / = IETF Executive Director. >>>>=20 >>>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools = and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would = lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the = datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would = hate to commit as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system = just to make input a little easier. >>> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 2 09:07:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912A93A0811 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 09:07:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pTWsQkd2ZlQL for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 09:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B33E3A07D7 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::6] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A2G72gY1326244 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:07:03 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635869223; bh=Re2mKNNtEHNQskWW9cYLN+f7C5nwIB8XB/dcMc50eRE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=NGB5buzGTpy4iyx+t9nQYgMy6JaNIMZroRz8JT7fYL6msLw7IyMKCmR3mGI7ZmZZA uddfErIjIIP7oJ3b9jARa9Xx92AXm/JSvUIcEbDp3E1yDY1Xu46Ex9cl3H4Jmtg1HU xsMw7t0CYaAlwkjGqzTy+3kr9Ugrcee7xnKsUatI= Message-ID: <6ce6b068-76f9-1a51-6d8f-ba19715e4680@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:06:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <0ABD48E5-6A8D-4D80-B89B-D565B02B291C@kuehlewind.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0ABD48E5-6A8D-4D80-B89B-D565B02B291C@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0IhcSLH3pq9rDVjfRrJhvN0X" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:07:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------0IhcSLH3pq9rDVjfRrJhvN0X Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------LblgYL8ueY8N2GiGKmoM907j"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6ce6b068-76f9-1a51-6d8f-ba19715e4680@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? 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(Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D63894A6573C; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 11:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 07:51:57 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Carsten Bormann , "John R. Levine" , Mark Nottingham , Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 18:52:09 -0000 > On 3/11/2021, at 3:08 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Yes, I think there are two points missing here. >=20 > A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct any = request that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or = entities to reply. I thought that would maybe still be the RSCE, or do = we need a dedicated person at the RPC to be responsible that any request = gets relied to? Having a team of people handle this, as we have with support@, legal@, = sponsorship@, ombudsteam@, liaison-coordination@ and more, is = substantially preferable to a single person.=20 >=20 > And B) who would be the right person to e.g. talk to other publishing = organisation or publishing related activities, such as applying for a = DOI number. I was also assuming that would still be the RSCE as that=E2=80= =99s the person with the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again = someone from the RPC as well but, again, I think it would be good to = clarify a but more what/who the appropriate body is. I don=E2=80=99t think we know enough in advance about who would handle = what given the potential complexities of the questions asked to define = it in this I-D. Jay >=20 > I think it would be better to be a bit more concrete in the document = but this is also not a hard point for me; just saying this is not very = well specified. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 29. Oct 2021, at 23:33, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >> We currently have: >>=20 >> 4.5. External Representation >>=20 >> =46rom time to time, individuals or organizations external to the = IETF and the broader RFC Series community may have questions about the = RFC Series. Such inquiries should be directed to the = rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org email alias and then handled by the = appropriate bodies(e.g., RSAB, RPC) or individuals (e.g., RSWG chairs, = RSCE). >> Do you think it also needs something like =E2=80=9CAll other external = representation of the RFC Series should be handled by the appropriate = bodies or individuals=E2=80=9D ? >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director=20 >> exec-director@ietf.org >>=20 >>> On 30/10/2021, at 9:46 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> On 30/10/2021, at 9:21 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFOne comment below. >>>>=20 >>>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 22:14, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 5:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =EF=BB=BFHi Eliot, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I think your proposed change makes sense. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> My 2c on the issue in general: My assumption was that while the = RPC might flag such an issue issue and maybe even ask the LLC for = support to fix it if additional technical expertise is needed, it could = still be the RSCE that could talk to Google, if needed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes, whoever is best suited.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The v2 model had a point about "representation of the RFC = Series=E2=80=9D and we did discuss this at some point but maybe we = didn=E2=80=99t resolve this issue fully? We could re-add that point to = the list RSCE responsibilities or is that not what is intended? >>>>>=20 >>>>> No definitely not, the RSCE is not *the* representative of the = series though they may be *a* representative. We did resolve this - we = agreed that all we need to say is that such queries come into the the = RPC who dispatch them as appropriate. >>>>=20 >>>> I was not reading or proposing this as *the* representation of the = series. But rather a one person that might be qualified to go out there = in the world and talk about the series. >>>=20 >>> Sorry, I assumed you meant *the* representative if it=E2=80=99s not = also added to the other roles.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director=20 >>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>>=20 >>>> I didn=E2=80=99t remember the conclusion of that discussion and = what you say in not mentioned in the draft. If that was the conclusion = (which it fine for me) we should explicitly spell this out in the = document. >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regarding the more high level policy question about = accessibility, I would think this are covered by the RPC = responsibilities: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> "The core responsibility of the RPC is continuous improvement >>>>>> regarding the implementation of RFC policies (including the >>>>>> dimensions of document quality, timeliness of production, and >>>>>> accessibility of results),=E2=80=9D >>>>>=20 >>>>> I=E2=80=99ve tried to address that in a proposed change that = explicitly notes that =E2=80=98publishing=E2=80=99 includes depositing = with external archives.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> However, while Google Scholar might be a more obvious one, I = think we still rely on the publishing expertise of the RSCE to tell us = (the community) and the RPC which are the important venues. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes agreed.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Jay >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Jay Daley >>>>> IETF Executive Director=20 >>>>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 29. Oct 2021, at 10:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 29.10.21 09:52, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>>>>>>> * If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF = LLC >>>>>>>>> And then we say: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted >>>>>>>> I think the expectation we don=E2=80=99t find in the document = is that the RSCE (*) takes the initiative on these issues, and is not = just sitting there waiting to be asked (by whom?). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I don't think this group's intent was to gag the RSCE, but I = could see how the text reads that way. My suggestion would be to make = two changes: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Remove "If requested," >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> And >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Change "Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted" to = "Matters on which the RSCE might provide guidance" >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> ??? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Not that anyone else couldn't as well, mind you. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> (*) (pronounce: risky?) >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Nov 2 12:16:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5700F3A0CBB for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=KVsjTq7H; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=HiT/Ex3/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aTyonxFveK8o for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 978833A0CB9 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13128 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2021 19:16:16 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=3345.61818e80.k2111; bh=MPR5bsFg20VV/JiNkAo5eMCrqJxPXBky/5eW505cb9s=; b=KVsjTq7HJmvllwd80pUjXWfzYqaGEd8HIGX+3GVnz+JiPS62tYuQgZ8YZbxq+bGIdDDR7PxLi0BAve7tkmoQ3BPnQwLj80l7RJYzLrPOLQbTtCRG9pf78yRdSuul39wOnTcEzbhT1zTXUHCqgtRAt+3APc76j3/qbbLXrVekb+eJtI8eOz7PWPUzk7LRMVlpBSNG4Xgr78t5jAKnw+9TTK2STiJ2oaV9aBoLDBV99zuop0pDCEwrb0SAqmlhyu+lvGL9WShLhqRH2ROQE+Fv1gt9QL+DASfSqHxYdO+xIpc3wFqobDITnADFgaHlIrYR5hArKctmaX5k9lUnaP7FlQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=3345.61818e80.k2111; bh=MPR5bsFg20VV/JiNkAo5eMCrqJxPXBky/5eW505cb9s=; b=HiT/Ex3/KLXVTnEKVVmzDG+ENzWCJ2sNqeHV3KAoJ522qkaOIRualXCwA94iwWFXm/nGekYWbw37h2J2cpJspS8B7NIyIJwu9IrBvTQLg5DTnJ+u1TqtC2FGK7Lr67Ad912anBJRW2Sm7pv9T8LpFzGJMn/Jk9G9mIvIhc/oFCk21xj8eVHZtRacHX2GzcJKaTUoKu8fvo0SaZbxo8j4ZMSaN9TYhS54qb1E0+NXrZnV+4/C9BADKifHCfrIVoLKVuDRDG+r2amCOPIivcX0eoPvf7W15fpBCymuVs8A7vjtRQVNsU1MJ5RJ+pzwHGvXjJU111ZMhHX5bsU+RUt/0g== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 02 Nov 2021 19:16:16 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id A5A582F6BA2D; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC0D2F6BA0F; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: 2 Nov 2021 15:16:14 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Jay Daley" , "Mirja Kuehlewind" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 19:16:28 -0000 >> A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct any request that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or entities to reply. I thought that would maybe still be the RSCE, or do we need a dedicated person at the RPC to be responsible that any request gets relied to? > > Having a team of people handle this, as we have with support@, legal@, sponsorship@, ombudsteam@, liaison-coordination@ and more, is substantially preferable to a single person. For responding to outside queries, sure. >> And B) who would be the right person to e.g. talk to other publishing organisation or publishing related activities, such as applying for a DOI number. I was also assuming that would still be the RSCE as that’s the person with the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again someone from the RPC as well but, again, I think it would be good to clarify a but more what/who the appropriate body is. > > I don’t think we know enough in advance about who would handle what > given the potential complexities of the questions asked to define it in > this I-D. There's no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up. This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to recognize and deal with routine stuff, while still sending significant issues up to the committees. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Nov 2 13:13:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1E53A03F3 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NGUbQ2bzUUDw for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 765BA3A03F4 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id o14so600014plg.5 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n9mqg7p396+l5QE6MD7r0kJzP/hTR9SZSWbUCX0WvH8=; b=UfP5CI5KCUJMbwrlEssAAB1dTG4RM1EvO8/SPTQHDshT/Vo5W4P7TzRa5+9J3fbzZz T5WdX6pPcF71WIlyFe6kclc/LDARjgNarTD6Letmu+mr8osxmkcu/ddKWrsERmvEmwJ3 wnuBG0DY+8MOJF0OXgNaBnAbLg44YTtTBhyhzRsf8rugf/6Ocg3UYyxfz+KKVpmNL6nW UUDHM29xVX2D2zk6niWjvqjiKKXwdyB6XIbDoZzXedkBj0gDJGfweSu06xZ+Sd2Qx/zS K1bo9dl7vJVLdbUw/c4K+Ui5U+AL3PXYGeGLM0gOM8Cxy0HaLC9gwf3ZrKcS0vEaPPFl EubQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=n9mqg7p396+l5QE6MD7r0kJzP/hTR9SZSWbUCX0WvH8=; b=qdOAlzurPg5g0aZIndK8uCHcGPxYfLFKwFoIyb0K7+8+tpWx2DL/2wZZpo9XHg8uYM wlHLEzti4pIcdYfQcscZ+hdtyr0mCHkES4UXm1vvkiEsAyRtyWBT03rXH+oIG0rscRRa YBC6h0WmkvI0z7jchhQC+p/+yXYYbXoJtwk2WughJvdQkyn6OcDy4hsvEmqay00E30SM xSRj6eU9Ta6+uNdEbjtG2ei5hhCvcmD9i1UM4QRyLy5Pc3sC/Zysn9mUJIU1aLB8FrPa Oo1x+TbJeEhVj7qaiuUCOD/ZCH3wGohEG4B51X05oFoM/xFko4QUzzdiFXgtWJUdjw71 /U0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CTjdE2gwbKIDY703gmA2NTBMP/wlcWtCzsAjKCfPG9iMgfGx4 CU+IOvu4q//u7yqG+R7iD3Ns9r/EjxvgWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6KU2vbEbQZm5/kEJ2xipszHcDHjhuvyFjfEGKXmbXG54YzUPNOsjkKb+7uW7m1SArjiHuvQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b583:b0:13d:e495:187a with SMTP id a3-20020a170902b58300b0013de495187amr34012438pls.9.1635884001579; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o1sm3306832pjs.30.2021.11.02.13.13.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:13:21 -0700 (PDT) To: John R Levine , Jay Daley , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <339b266e-3fb2-aebf-0c4d-1f752bcc0e1d@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:13:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 20:13:30 -0000 On 03-Nov-21 08:16, John R Levine wrote: >>> A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct any reque= st that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or entities=20 to reply. I thought that would maybe still be the RSCE, or do we need a d= edicated person at the RPC to be responsible that any request gets relied=20 to? >> >> Having a team of people handle this, as we have with support@, legal@,=20 sponsorship@, ombudsteam@, liaison-coordination@ and more, is substantial= ly preferable to a single person. >=20 > For responding to outside queries, sure. >=20 >>> And B) who would be the right person to e.g. talk to other publishing=20 organisation or publishing related activities, such as applying for a DOI=20 number. I was also assuming that would still be the RSCE as that=E2=80=99= s the person with the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again som= eone from the RPC as well but, again, I think it would be good to clarify=20 a but more what/who the appropriate body is. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think we know enough in advance about who would handle=20 what >> given the potential complexities of the questions asked to define it i= n >> this I-D. >=20 > There's no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up. > This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to recognize and de= al > with routine stuff, while still sending significant issues up to the > committees. Agreed, but I thought that was already quite clear when I re-read the dra= ft for the ongoing Last Call. The RPC and the RSCE are there every day. T= he RSWAG and the RSAB are not. Brian Brian From nobody Tue Nov 2 13:20:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297703A0744 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id taGaTnyV1C0y for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A1F3A0691 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id x66so75049pfx.13 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h+bkqq2OFmteXQ3Q/P4Yu5mwBykWm8k9ARUHyJrVUlM=; b=PUcpLlnCfs5d8uZ3lTbKEYiD6aj4e3uFsRyqwtgqLnZspbZGd8+fC0cf/bjBD/W+j0 seC+/dGLgQvH1VHtO0pH++1ifzSOKEi6TkhLsFofr8ByX92TTci3pS+1CzFBhtMojAQR z5W9PRkW6IibCnjMAEoxcMAoUznfDeHDmkMniXBVICk96eJ6iue0o4uFzNxZ2OtMDeA2 nqNHoy9e6/KnNRbufIEsWbajL7p7aTh8Eq1/XRxTTmnOPEzIKM9yewAtAdorQohI9uoG YdU+lPNAOCOsV6HOw8Y1wYx8xQ7oNlDpNEq7moy8+lz6rE//br/uI8kz4+zuhP7p7vhd zEDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h+bkqq2OFmteXQ3Q/P4Yu5mwBykWm8k9ARUHyJrVUlM=; b=3Yg7dE1U9nIAskZpBOEZlhLMEkuLYgJkYuHX2suKh8YuPoG76KADbPe+/v+oRF9mf0 NhsK2dwHwS2N4wpLDicvWlEP3ugJMC996a+GZH4Vge3xNIwrZSfc0S3e1neoUZt7GllB ZOGb0c9GwPLl7clPsouAmKjuNKFxqnPNSSsCH9bpaRKIh1QwM+/kgKIxbjzilWGdX8y9 Sbo7THkYeQE2+byDqIVVUtEuJsfgXQKjRqLWXJXMMDl7bbxGr6EIbBpr/dZU0MuU8LYK G5bkjV0SpWX39VFbaCmL9JcYMvQd3GpuXPmoGIimdIULmzrT5W8WZ2XMzOabiMNDjEAz HPzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531eUT7mLtBE7PtwGRFs3neWOCDXXSF2pDE0kO6wEqmWU10JtB0d L/s0wxu4t/Mm1ASPhEINRiY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8hQfOSpiLxfv1EsE1duISPAEgN53w7HARtJ7TXCCooDCt+9bVeLty9v+Wm51TNH0gCDC18Q== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9010:0:b0:481:1883:a3d2 with SMTP id m16-20020aa79010000000b004811883a3d2mr12964923pfo.50.1635884438964; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ip8sm3744299pjb.9.2021.11.02.13.20.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 13:20:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:20:34 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 20:20:45 -0000 On 03-Nov-21 03:52, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I agree with Mark that the _authority_ of the _content_ of the RFC edit= or page should not be with the LLC. Huh? The content (the text etc.) is not going to be debated in detail by = a committee, I hope. The policy is not the content, and the RSWG/RSAB onl= y determine policy. I agree with Joel that we have unambiguously limited = the RSWG/RSAB in that way. If the web site content does not follow the po= licy, of course, that's a problem, but it's an operational problem. > I could actually see the RSAB to have this authority, as the RSCE is as=20 members and the stream representatives are the (only) customers. I think = I would trust the RSAB to decide if a change touches on policy and would = need to be discussed in the RSWG or not. The RSAB isn't an authority. It's an approval body. Its power of decision=20 is actually very limited. > However, for me Marks originally proposal was more about tooling (which=20 might be the confusing part here). For RFC-tooling-related question, so f= ar we used rfc-interest@ for discussion and I think that works well, so I=20 don=E2=80=99t think we should changes it. And it also seems that LLC actu= ally has the authority about tooling (that support the needs of the vario= us bodies we have). Yes. Again, RFC8711 settled this issue almost 2 years ago. Brian > Not sure if others agree to this view but I at least think this discuss= ion has shown that we need to clarify this in the draft as we seem to hav= e different ideas in this group. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 2. Nov 2021, at 04:44, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:00 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of sc= ope because RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community reac= hed rough consensus on that document, they handed the problem over to the=20 implementation of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed to yest= erday: >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 >> >> Paragraph four mentions the RFC Editor as an example of historical ben= efit seen due to the IETF's use of contractors, and then paragraph five t= hen talks about the IETF's history of community involvement, documenting = an expectation that the LLC will respect the IETF community's wishes -- p= ossibly requiring documentation of consensus. >> >> I read this as imprecise use of 'IETF community' in 8711 -- especially=20 since a distinction with the greater RFC Series Community had yet to be s= trenuously and successfully argued for. >> >> Regardless of that, this text does not prohibit the LLC from consideri= ng other factors. >> >> Nor does it give the LLC authority over such decisions -- section 5.1 = is couched in terms of *responsibilities*, not authorities, and all other=20 mentions of the RFC Editor in 8711 merely characterise the LLC as a sourc= e of 'financial support for the operation of the RFC Editor.' >> >> For example, when the IESG wants a change to www.ietf.org, they make t= hat known to the LLC, and the LLC has the responsibility to carry that ou= t. Of course, the LLC can and does adjust and improve the site based upon=20 their expertise and observations, but ultimate authority resides in the I= ESG. In our current model, there is no clear role or body that has author= ity over the content of rfc-editor.org. >> >> So I think it's too strong to say that 8711 puts out of scope any invo= lvement of the RSWG in defining requirements for or even offering improve= ments to e.g., the RFC Editor web site. And, it would be exceedingly odd = for us to effectively convene the RFC Series Community in the RSWG but th= en say that it had no input into or authority over how the RFC Series is = presented. >> >> >>> We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its expectat= ions for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its contractor(s), accordi= ng to that paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, because RFC8711 refers = exclusively to "the IETF community", but I'd be happy to see such text. H= owever, if we don't like RFC8711, that is not in our remit. That's all I'= m trying to say. >> >> Understood, but see above. >> >> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in consul= tation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>>>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility to = the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC / I= ETF Executive Director. >>>>> >>>>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools a= nd process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would len= d itself to the kind of community input that we use for the datatracker, = or if some different interaction would be needed. I would hate to commit=20 as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make in= put a little easier. >>>> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >=20 > . >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 2 13:23:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF9F3A0788 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBh9WVnmYKDV for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91A0E3A0819 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC72D4A44554; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KweEzp-Orava; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A65A44A40EF6; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:23:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <86126C60-25B6-4EB4-8258-D4D921472EF4@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FCC518AD-D859-4347-9F26-8483DF4B469D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:23:33 +1300 In-Reply-To: <339b266e-3fb2-aebf-0c4d-1f752bcc0e1d@gmail.com> Cc: John R Levine , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> <339b266e-3fb2-aebf-0c4d-1f752bcc0e1d@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 20:23:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FCC518AD-D859-4347-9F26-8483DF4B469D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 3/11/2021, at 9:13 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 03-Nov-21 08:16, John R Levine wrote: >>>> A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct any = request that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or = entities=20 > to reply. I thought that would maybe still be the RSCE, or do we need = a dedicated person at the RPC to be responsible that any request gets = relied to? >>>=20 >>> Having a team of people handle this, as we have with support@, = legal@,=20 > sponsorship@, ombudsteam@, liaison-coordination@ and more, is = substantially preferable to a single person. >> For responding to outside queries, sure. >>>> And B) who would be the right person to e.g. talk to other = publishing=20 > organisation or publishing related activities, such as applying for a = DOI number. I was also assuming that would still be the RSCE as that=E2=80= =99s the person with the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again = someone from the RPC as well but, again, I think it would be good to = clarify a but more what/who the appropriate body is. >>>=20 >>> I don=E2=80=99t think we know enough in advance about who would = handle=20 > what >>> given the potential complexities of the questions asked to define it = in >>> this I-D. >> There's no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up. >> This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to recognize and = deal >> with routine stuff, while still sending significant issues up to the >> committees. >=20 > Agreed, but I thought that was already quite clear when I re-read the = draft for the ongoing Last Call. The RPC and the RSCE are there every = day. The RSWAG and the RSAB are not. A minor point - the RSE was part time and the workload so far specified = for the RSCE also tends towards that. Jay >=20 > Brian >=20 > Brian >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_FCC518AD-D859-4347-9F26-8483DF4B469D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 3/11/2021, at 9:13 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 03-Nov-21 08:16, John R Levine wrote:
A) I think we need one person how its responsible to direct = any request that come in rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org to the right person or = entities 
to reply. I thought that would = maybe still be the RSCE, or do we need a dedicated person at the RPC to = be responsible that any request gets relied to?

Having a = team of people handle this, as we have with support@, legal@, 
sponsorship@, ombudsteam@, liaison-coordination@ and more, is = substantially preferable to a single person.
For = responding to outside queries, sure.
And B) who = would be the right person to e.g. talk to other publishing 
organisation or publishing = related activities, such as applying for a DOI number. I was also = assuming that would still be the RSCE as that=E2=80=99s the person with = the publishing expertise. I guess it could be again someone from the RPC = as well but, again, I think it would be good to clarify a but more = what/who the appropriate body is.

I don=E2=80=99t think we know enough in = advance about who would handle 
what
given the potential complexities of the questions asked to = define it in
this I-D.
There's = no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up.
This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to = recognize and deal
with routine stuff, while still sending = significant issues up to the
committees.

Agreed, but I thought that was already quite clear when I = re-read the draft for the ongoing Last Call. The RPC and the RSCE are = there every day. The RSWAG and the RSAB are not.

A minor = point - the RSE was part time and the workload so far specified for the = RSCE also tends towards that.

Jay


  Brian

  Brian

-- Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_FCC518AD-D859-4347-9F26-8483DF4B469D-- From nobody Tue Nov 2 13:35:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5DA3A09D0 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24JC71h22Ur8 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58C943A0A6C for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b200547d38c039b87b35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:547d:38c0:39b8:7b35]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mi0VJ-0003DS-4C; Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:35:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:35:32 +0100 Cc: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <594D76BF-201A-4386-84F6-13C54899B349@kuehlewind.net> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1635885337;6eb93e09; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mi0VJ-0003DS-4C Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 20:35:56 -0000 The authority over the content on the IETF webpage lies with the IESG, = which is a committee of people that is selected by the community to act = based on community consensus. The RPC is not that. I was not proposing to maintain the content of the = RFC editor webpage in the RSWG but there needs to be authority over the = content by a body that is guided by the community. The RSAB is an approval body but we talk about =E2=80=9Cactivities = related to implementation of policies=E2=80=9D and the RSAB as an = advisory body for the RPC, so I think we already defined more than = =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D approval of documents as their role. In think we have a gap here. > On 2. Nov 2021, at 21:20, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 03-Nov-21 03:52, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> I agree with Mark that the _authority_ of the _content_ of the RFC = editor page should not be with the LLC. >=20 > Huh? The content (the text etc.) is not going to be debated in detail = by a committee, I hope. The policy is not the content, and the RSWG/RSAB = only determine policy. I agree with Joel that we have unambiguously = limited the RSWG/RSAB in that way. If the web site content does not = follow the policy, of course, that's a problem, but it's an operational = problem. >=20 >> I could actually see the RSAB to have this authority, as the RSCE is = as=20 > members and the stream representatives are the (only) customers. I = think I would trust the RSAB to decide if a change touches on policy and = would need to be discussed in the RSWG or not. >=20 > The RSAB isn't an authority. It's an approval body. Its power of = decision is actually very limited. >=20 >> However, for me Marks originally proposal was more about tooling = (which=20 > might be the confusing part here). For RFC-tooling-related question, = so far we used rfc-interest@ for discussion and I think that works well, = so I don=E2=80=99t think we should changes it. And it also seems that = LLC actually has the authority about tooling (that support the needs of = the various bodies we have). >=20 > Yes. Again, RFC8711 settled this issue almost 2 years ago. >=20 > Brian >=20 >> Not sure if others agree to this view but I at least think this = discussion has shown that we need to clarify this in the draft as we = seem to have different ideas in this group. >>> On 2. Nov 2021, at 04:44, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Brian, >>>=20 >>>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 2:00 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I'm not especially happy about this, but I'm asserting it's out of = scope because RFC8711 *makes* it out of scope. When the IETF community = reached rough consensus on that document, they handed the problem over = to the=20 > implementation of the LLC and in particular of the para I pointed to = yesterday: >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8711.html#section-5.1-5 >>>=20 >>> Paragraph four mentions the RFC Editor as an example of historical = benefit seen due to the IETF's use of contractors, and then paragraph = five then talks about the IETF's history of community involvement, = documenting an expectation that the LLC will respect the IETF = community's wishes -- possibly requiring documentation of consensus. >>>=20 >>> I read this as imprecise use of 'IETF community' in 8711 -- = especially=20 > since a distinction with the greater RFC Series Community had yet to = be strenuously and successfully argued for. >>>=20 >>> Regardless of that, this text does not prohibit the LLC from = considering other factors. >>>=20 >>> Nor does it give the LLC authority over such decisions -- section = 5.1 is couched in terms of *responsibilities*, not authorities, and all = other=20 > mentions of the RFC Editor in 8711 merely characterise the LLC as a = source of 'financial support for the operation of the RFC Editor.' >>>=20 >>> For example, when the IESG wants a change to www.ietf.org, they make = that known to the LLC, and the LLC has the responsibility to carry that = out. Of course, the LLC can and does adjust and improve the site based = upon=20 > their expertise and observations, but ultimate authority resides in = the IESG. In our current model, there is no clear role or body that has = authority over the content of rfc-editor.org. >>>=20 >>> So I think it's too strong to say that 8711 puts out of scope any = involvement of the RSWG in defining requirements for or even offering = improvements to e.g., the RFC Editor web site. And, it would be = exceedingly odd for us to effectively convene the RFC Series Community = in the RSWG but then say that it had no input into or authority over how = the RFC Series is presented. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> We could add some text saying that the RSWG may document its = expectations for tools, for the benefit of the LLC and its = contractor(s), according to that paragraph. Even that is a bit strange, = because RFC8711 refers exclusively to "the IETF community", but I'd be = happy to see such text. However, if we don't like RFC8711, that is not = in our remit. That's all I'm trying to say. >>>=20 >>> Understood, but see above. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Brian >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>> Historically, it was indeed part of the RSE's job. often in = consultation with the RSOC and RSAG. >>>>>> We have, as far as I can tell, not assigned that responsibility = to the RSCE. I had assumed therefore that the oversight fell to the LLC = / IETF Executive Director. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As a minor note, I have no idea if the current setup of the rools = and process used to create and maintain the RFC Editor web pages would = lend itself to the kind of community input that we use for the = datatracker, or if some different interaction would be needed. I would = hate to commit=20 > as part of this work to a complete rebuild of that system just to make = input a little easier. >>>>> That doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. >>>>> -- >>>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>=20 >> . >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 2 19:22:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0203A09E4 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ir9O6PTS; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PNzI2br+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bQUt-ItdV_g for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B6323A09E7 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503995C00D6; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 22:22:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=v HY11ERdsFrw73pYX51TezzppY3RDQb7oTuo5CCXK+c=; b=ir9O6PTSiKlFbQ2f5 U1mDPzYKoWaFvg6/lfrbCIdIwcn5AVC1s9wI1w/YZwItNDemI63yUzrfPwFrLLXJ PjHNSTHWtJND9ZaLHStpynWDOqZEdiDDNlLb0petTOju9WxgPpmvUuGQpqbOnNEJ eO1/kIEeOdVxokTfvp7YASon9Bd1VrZthj8SDc0HB5OwCUNX8DYq2aTiHF0c5BGa T/sPo57Zn1VNaoVWka/vSPtsTKxqTYyWNn5cwh/eINBj5NIWSRvV4/LQ9J8V6FQt 66vZb4RNV3lstwTXjp9H0+qCjDVARvH1+zyHdGr1H3jnTIYgK0RvYAVwwa88DTIQ APG7g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=vHY11ERdsFrw73pYX51TezzppY3RDQb7oTuo5CCXK +c=; b=PNzI2br++8wInOxWNBrrxtxy3IZH7NNIeQvP1LUE2dBbR8YAjcSSq2eUD f28WOEW5cCAjr08BBLf2Z4FF9LrDElD0OoV2noYB/nj2bcvsBVRaG7zYLmqrCPy4 sm3y1XX7h5aomnzWhw3Kj5k4feYIXwGIuVMBzz+LNgTSXUEVLLqBl44z4jKH9RpF 15SbSerFCHRy2sRx4WzSspFNqsH5iJuXfxV++xwKksXF0r313Af+bx4KAr+9/Xxq 17gjtXBOFRTmWtlxAUdMIda/D+i+XFOgu/vt5hRARk0zV//47jiOM1P3Bp90GPPc heviY+KCLbSSZGoLOW3Yrmkw2qhog== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtddugdeggecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepteefleffjeffhfehheeffeegudelgfeujedukeeigedvgeehffefvdehffeileek necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:22:02 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 02:22:14 -0000 > On 2 Nov 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about = improving the RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about = improving the RFC Editor service as Eliot describes it? The web presence is the most obvious and important aspect. If it = simplifies the discussion, I'm happy to limit it to the web presence, = since that's 99% of non-IETF folks' experience with the RFC Series. Cheers,=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 2 19:29:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDF33A0A00 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=k+QP2XbU; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=V+TRLOOn Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id caFv7XrALg3L for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A52DF3A09E8 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3FD5C017D; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 22:29:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=y zdPnOv67sHFSg07NYMkdvVg/b2uhMOOeRVk+dyZ7QI=; b=k+QP2XbU6xqCRtPPH XmLHcAGpUrQf82xQD1ZFLnsRuuh5t/FRcFUIoiilE9IA55Bv913WYlrepgC05Lim GMg2auksNoyB3filDMppwv4L67RFpgNE8xOF777RFDuJ1W2UrBr/tMotSDaKaYDd S+KhG38uuNsj6vYW+G4VdU62hy1Zx/sCIIM1N3WSP7KLQLZ2CgI3j2FIT4Tbcsdn Ey3Wu6dhgE3XU2yfixZ75i/fJkOxD7+TA+gdJPAm4E78wZDiIYg898tcU614+1pg 9xMcM03jNG/NPrhOMQeZ/7HxFp+9mnrH5OzORaTGz3znP6UQn25P9tYTGKyKviSh bIR2A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=yzdPnOv67sHFSg07NYMkdvVg/b2uhMOOeRVk+dyZ7 QI=; b=V+TRLOOnODXRhBBs7Qd8dKrel9hDq28jsAcOUn5IIy82xAz2FVPpss63t FaN2vfv6sawDE3GP8CyMCZhlpQpjhiHwi1h200AnwpOMIUKF0ivv4Iq3VAkLSa4n g5HGwNs/lqFZVUIqoXESu2IjIguTphyP2SGQbCkddAidAqhzfcGjbYjAf7/5Y+Vk 4eS0TApCWk8pGVkpjjgxBb4JJyq+se5gf/suIgtypY0iaiUPthSsXlbkI1vfA59l xi6h0tf8siIM2CGycRtgtzIPSSUIOF5B5UlsXxl7IJqKHmK5xCNdwCnnd1iQbJIY ZW6CkJw+RcpBAA6aljp0ufo+Wtj+Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtddugdegiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepteefleffjeffhfehheeffeegudelgfeujedukeeigedvgeehffefvdehffeileek necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:29:09 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9350798A-343A-4409-B47E-499CEE565229@mnot.net> References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <23584298-65b0-8142-76ab-28010b01123c@gmail.com> <94CB9CDE-FD5F-4AE0-B92B-3AD7CB253530@mnot.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 02:29:22 -0000 > On 3 Nov 2021, at 1:52 am, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > However, for me Marks originally proposal was more about tooling = (which might be the confusing part here). For RFC-tooling-related = question, so far we used rfc-interest@ for discussion and I think that = works well, so I don=E2=80=99t think we should changes it. And it also = seems that LLC actually has the authority about tooling (that support = the needs of the various bodies we have). I think there are two issues mingling here: 1) Who determines how the RFC Series is presented to and interacts with = the world. E.g., the web site. This is the 'authority' issue discussed = before. 2) How the tradition of 'community involvement in the execution of = certain administrative functions' (as per RFC8711) is reflected in #1.=20= It's a bit weird to me to characterise #2 as a tooling issue, since in = many cases it will be making suggestions for content on the web site. It = might be creating new tools too. That *doesn't* mean that I want the = ability for the RSWG to create requirements for the tools team -- = rather, that if a good tool emerges in the community, and it would be = beneficial to list it / use it on the site, we should have a process for = that. > Not sure if others agree to this view but I at least think this = discussion has shown that we need to clarify this in the draft as we = seem to have different ideas in this group. Oh, my yes. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 2 19:30:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E3B3A0A1A for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=DXlqdLvO; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=RHKLcqkw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AQM1z6rlw0k for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECFC53A0A1D for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA535C019F; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 22:30:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=B 7KDLSCmjv+B5/5LGaSW54D6TgRoRHrpPQIb50Ep+oI=; b=DXlqdLvO9Yuqypr4r q9xMRndbh1YUsjV5JAhsspl7LM3W6BKvtP853NpkDtjvwxdT/GhQfcJhuS6AKsTx eya4WTaTEDuuJ5Z01HKmsoVX+eJhHqknTMp1QsDndx1h7L8sxzlLd2riPHZVTFC9 zDL8nqypcEtmIgQnwco8d5a2cuu8L/wV59mbmoYrFk3UYYr9HgD+u+XITWoeYnN/ T0Y7IrfvJGn/QXmBwszHtnVTtX1kEUxUQMHb7u2aEOFzVRNv/ZJQOHeeAA9yAaFJ HfxFYKrmBcZFv7FtugRyImqS4gt+/BBGw/wd11TJWaJzb2+4SamZPRBhjPLVmb8q F0X5w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=B7KDLSCmjv+B5/5LGaSW54D6TgRoRHrpPQIb50Ep+ oI=; b=RHKLcqkwifrPb+dH5fkIg+x+RBP4C3m29SYK9mCkbzjdFfFtYf1F3Lv01 k+P2bYx+4Jto4oeosfQx83wUKmGCopWUh06QpjVDf06Q7QTu2hQt+vNElgRdXzJO Fui5K9F2U65GJK7LC8mXhKHmkBKtodYO9eG90r4UpC14Rb3bR88NIQqK0QNRwa9a 3+3cX58KP80eqp8OeQ6g3kZg5BpPs44oiSoeKxv4IgHF+jAVpQqaQ52+EE9Gn4Lk POeLi5Pz++r7WHLxuJfxE9WLtTyMiOoGeePQGQzeoyx04WJLl7t5pQw9mno7CMji +HbZIXHITNnCBXHTkIu2telz8qWWA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtddugdegiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:30:45 +1100 Cc: Jay Daley , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 02:30:55 -0000 > On 3 Nov 2021, at 6:16 am, John R Levine wrote: >=20 > There's no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up. = This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to recognize and = deal with routine stuff, while still sending significant issues up to = the committees. +1 - I think John's on the right path here. The people in = selected/elected positions need to be empowered, and able to make = judgement calls, and there need to be processes to handle the cases when = they make the wrong judgement calls (without making it an exercise in = blame). Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 2 20:24:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3450F3A0C9A for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 20:24:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=OZ6Rjwja; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=WW0BgaFX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7ReOpu3rGSs for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 20:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E28E83A0C97 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3125C012E for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 23:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Nov 2021 23:24:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=FeDIrarwmPy9+nVJhvlDwC8SglCXutYXEfqdqBU5Uz0=; b=OZ6Rjwja x05tGIUIrTA8htI/zlLF1OyhHOZ62xQLfUIymcvGugBNdgdCPIk1KsCQmT06BJuA Zj7OJJg3xJpyljumCtEepmky0D6zpyw6RTWtwiGur5V3/fGU1rV/zIZeGMR/Bh5G erSl2O/We7az91RVr8E3VVo0S6AdpubgkWbcaWKdMFLLblrZizPG3Q5ZD7iM43Ew BPcQSJd9sdsv760bYeChiHZ+KnRlpAmqDIvFZ2VKABe7798o2rDZPBR+NqIb2RR5 AvYxymDE+78rjlRmjF4v0drsj/VZkfFjLM45u3b7VE5MEypJSTsWozFN2ZbsO4Kr eNp5La6XIRSdRA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=FeDIrarwmPy9+nVJhvlDwC8SglCXu tYXEfqdqBU5Uz0=; b=WW0BgaFXzJCz75hY6U7u/7a2XbpOGYp/KfXJ1NUnCAHBA X0jI8xUZTSDPSGhHRtIG0DXizoXKH2j3AfFs1hvNzibEc+ypWK7piSzWB6QZ49J8 0Rbu4Ufd0TRv7a1hMJLMv6nx5TtuZiNrrzk7ME8eEY613d8Bdn8ugSd2mbWjWpCd sUNL1+2+/ZTfsngiu5WPNMf2IJX9KS4R2C6/f5wwfBFKyqONv8gr/mNxQOnCjRxi 9SQ/4bulMw7N9SdSiXPySU3NyNRIMyKQzTJJfL5HgBHDzmcpUPMpa6GnJnoPzkfh 09BbUtZSx0cOGcJkJI5mfHfUcS/HmopI4GPZdq9nQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtddugdehiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtredtre ertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghn thhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvefguddtgfejfeduueehkeehke duueegheefgeevkeekgeelveevffeuudffheehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptden ucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6B9353C0AEC; Tue, 2 Nov 2021 23:24:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:23:53 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 03:24:17 -0000 Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about appeals. For #93, I suggest: OLD: However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general policy. NEW: However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a more general policy. For #94, I suggest: ADD: Decisions of the RSAB can be appealed on grounds of failure to follow the correct process. Where the RSAB makes a decision in order to resolve a dispute (or for other reasons??), appeals can be filed on the basis that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established by the RSWG. In other cases, disagreements about the conduct of the RSAB are not subject to appeal. That is, we allow people to appeal if the RSAB is *wrong*, but we have to allow the RSAB to resolve disputes. The policies will sometimes not cover things and decisions need to be made. People can take their dispute to the bodies that have delegates on the RSAB as a last resort. Also, people can attempt to convince the RSWG to set a policy that is different than what the RSAB might have decided in the heat of the moment. From nobody Wed Nov 3 00:02:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3003A0D16 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEJ2fNQm9tLC for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D6433A097A for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A372KC71761079 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:02:21 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635922941; bh=Q9fQrWoEtS3Hywh3k5k6DgMEFCaJIc05y8rX8lHgq2Y=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=BGBaJPSY40fEwdeaL0OIBmrRFcb0KW3Gp1Mj0lpE/yHZGXi/DHb1MQH1IqdhujHlb vj6tqLWHLu9/tqATKgLQf/COuY3Pnha4odkhSx68S3hz2hrK3Z9epCs+96ABjVO/sn y8w1zgGxgtHaMTY4UPEzrXD+PJvmjbI3Vb+amngw= Message-ID: <3edaaae7-43e5-e195-03a7-1cd70a846776@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:02:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------qDshoNhLV3NQfRDyg80wGuFF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 07:02:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------qDshoNhLV3NQfRDyg80wGuFF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------UvxM0LZHBhZGm0mUDDLKZf3K"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <3edaaae7-43e5-e195-03a7-1cd70a846776@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> --------------UvxM0LZHBhZGm0mUDDLKZf3K Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzLCBNYXJ0aW4uwqAgQXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSwgdGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHN1cHBv cnQgZm9yIGNoYW5nZXMuwqAgDQpQbGVhc2UgZGlzY3VzcywgYWdyZWUgb3IgZGlzYWdyZWUu DQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCk9uIDAzLjExLjIxIDA0OjIzLCBNYXJ0aW4gVGhvbXNvbiB3cm90ZToN Cj4gRWxpb3QgcHJvbXB0ZWQgbWUgdG8gc3VnZ2VzdCByZXNvbHV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUgaXNz dWVzIEkgcmFpc2VkIGFib3V0IGFwcGVhbHMuDQo+DQo+IEZvciAjOTMsIEkgc3VnZ2VzdDoN Cj4NCj4gT0xEOg0KPiAgICAgIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGluIHRoZSBpbnRlcmVzdCBvZiB0aW1lIHRo ZSBkaXNhZ3JlZW1lbnQgbWF5IGJlIHJlc29sdmVkIGFzIHRoZSBwYXJ0aWVzIGJlc3Qgc2Vl IGZpdCB3aGlsZSB0aGUgUlNXRyBmb3JtdWxhdGVzIGEgbW9yZSBnZW5lcmFsIHBvbGljeS4N Cj4gTkVXOg0KPiAgICAgIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGluIHRoZSBpbnRlcmVzdCBvZiB0aW1lIHRoZSBS U0FCIG1heSBwcm9wb3NlIHJlc29sdXRpb25zIGZvciBkaXNhZ3JlZW1lbnRzIGFmdGVyIHJl ZmVycmluZyB0aGUgbWF0dGVyIHRvIHRoZSBSU1dHIHRvIGZvcm11bGF0ZSBhIG1vcmUgZ2Vu ZXJhbCBwb2xpY3kuDQo+DQo+IEZvciAjOTQsIEkgc3VnZ2VzdDoNCj4NCj4gQUREOg0KPiAg ICAgIERlY2lzaW9ucyBvZiB0aGUgUlNBQiBjYW4gYmUgYXBwZWFsZWQgb24gZ3JvdW5kcyBv ZiBmYWlsdXJlIHRvIGZvbGxvdyB0aGUgY29ycmVjdCBwcm9jZXNzLiBXaGVyZSB0aGUgUlNB QiBtYWtlcyBhIGRlY2lzaW9uIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIHJlc29sdmUgYSBkaXNwdXRlIChvciBm b3Igb3RoZXIgcmVhc29ucz8/KSwgYXBwZWFscyBjYW4gYmUgZmlsZWQgb24gdGhlIGJhc2lz IHRoYXQgdGhlIFJTQUIgbWlzaW50ZXJwcmV0ZWQgYW4gYXBwcm92ZWQgcG9saWN5IHRoYXQg d2FzIGVzdGFibGlzaGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBSU1dHLiBJbiBvdGhlciBjYXNlcywgZGlzYWdyZWVt ZW50cyBhYm91dCB0aGUgY29uZHVjdCBvZiB0aGUgUlNBQiBhcmUgbm90IHN1YmplY3QgdG8g YXBwZWFsLg0KPg0KPiBUaGF0IGlzLCB3ZSBhbGxvdyBwZW9wbGUgdG8gYXBwZWFsIGlmIHRo ZSBSU0FCIGlzICp3cm9uZyosIGJ1dCB3ZSBoYXZlIHRvIGFsbG93IHRoZSBSU0FCIHRvIHJl c29sdmUgZGlzcHV0ZXMuICBUaGUgcG9saWNpZXMgd2lsbCBzb21ldGltZXMgbm90IGNvdmVy IHRoaW5ncyBhbmQgZGVjaXNpb25zIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgbWFkZS4gIFBlb3BsZSBjYW4gdGFr ZSB0aGVpciBkaXNwdXRlIHRvIHRoZSBib2RpZXMgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGRlbGVnYXRlcyBvbiB0 aGUgUlNBQiBhcyBhIGxhc3QgcmVzb3J0LiAgQWxzbywgcGVvcGxlIGNhbiBhdHRlbXB0IHRv IGNvbnZpbmNlIHRoZSBSU1dHIHRvIHNldCBhIHBvbGljeSB0aGF0IGlzIGRpZmZlcmVudCB0 aGFuIHdoYXQgdGhlIFJTQUIgbWlnaHQgaGF2ZSBkZWNpZGVkIGluIHRoZSBoZWF0IG9mIHRo ZSBtb21lbnQuDQo+DQo= --------------UvxM0LZHBhZGm0mUDDLKZf3K-- --------------qDshoNhLV3NQfRDyg80wGuFF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ch4-0x7x-gnG; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 008D43A1123; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A378sKk1764121 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:08:54 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1635923335; bh=285PQfb0NfMlfvmyMYPOAnIoN8NPw4/qU3Bf+PgPAuA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=NI860fBe7uaPt2ykODJ2AWsKe2R5MEAzY8kr4ESos5kqcB/UF9umMI4TDvuc+4JDE zob75QtPtf0rHKobzoPnjGBef8SAfrQPK3TqpApFpd/0JW8oIvrBKSUli1ZQUXgOtH SZuKYRgUhnNOmLhH8YAEKee6yG2Fo2p/ytW3lZRQ= Message-ID: <6c363ee8-8bdf-94e7-3275-7e7afc0b13f4@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:08:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: John R Levine , Jay Daley , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0BMgzGHU85ckARF70jirDLN5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 07:09:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------0BMgzGHU85ckARF70jirDLN5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 18:16:47 -0000 It appears that Mark Nottingham said: >1) Who determines how the RFC Series is presented to and interacts with the world. E.g., the web site. This is the 'authority' issue discussed before. Historically it has been the RSE and RPC, or in practice AMS. If we are claiming the IETF gets to manage that site, we have severe mission creep. R's, John PS: Insert the long "the RFC series isn't just the IETF" string here. From nobody Wed Nov 3 14:48:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EC13A124A for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Fwcw2RIuy9x for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x630.google.com (mail-pl1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0104B3A1235 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x630.google.com with SMTP id v20so3794487plo.7 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:48:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zJVu9XqchGSg0vHTi17ETacUEddJqJceG9r/4No9nVw=; b=PB+GHvam7hD/gixEOJa84TEhvFraPVpZ3IRKbIkQ+c2naYZqSqYuRHulRL/P0h7SpO 6g/UQMt+gcBqPzdkEyWsOT0/sEgd2x9fVEUuuuuqrDAAGZGE6v9yd5Doe+nmI5V9jTcm eDyPtbS47ty7VdWDURcBvIuvKngwOXo6E7k5/jveHz6K3siA9uN264LY92pi7DgCxvNw /uRE8H3vpuUutl4/GU/TrFHuFnAk2vLHkiNYjITIF43aOKUgB7k+LIbToQ9pBLlOA1Xr k4owBVSJjldu+rCGX+U/uDthlNHGFBe0l2jijKPvy6syK5zZeFHFmXc1cqG3tCzYwWij 6SMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zJVu9XqchGSg0vHTi17ETacUEddJqJceG9r/4No9nVw=; b=PjjoL3CFAG9I/tmTu6tMRB17xWOfh0tTgfnD4WxgJHbCctulPdUhjmUw6w05OuPdKw fi+C7oswBPqOE1kE2dCcMJXXicU1pAmoSqRZ9EsKYc67posfuzWQkNwY0Yd1K+wcfz8+ 12DjRG3oj4deYGKeIGv0xULGNzKkN8jdUR2uNAo+nRzyrKnmay5YTgMf+Dm8UuCJyljt XlJl2L6SnzpAXNE4ydrmRIbI8sosGMx6kCW2sb0b0zhV0S8gWNGFivL/aJI4Gua69/HT PIIneh833gHlsvh5hFt16ak4q2PktXyyvwcAnUpKQ71wC8IJH3RqBgKbvVhiEAEcTiiq WH6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306/iRJdwX66hobhhAQPL4ED3TPLYAfrZpkOaB7tiZW0Qo5L+ea 8nlvxoASxPQV66Dh+Xykk/AHhedFb/XnfA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHnDs5Kan06NwlPmh10aLmyb4sVvacCSizHN8kJSSF6Tir9W0Lupjyif3i4VesPQeykJuhgw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d490:b0:141:fd0f:5316 with SMTP id c16-20020a170902d49000b00141fd0f5316mr17254881plg.14.1635976098326; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p3sm3164712pfb.205.2021.11.03.14.48.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:48:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <3edaaae7-43e5-e195-03a7-1cd70a846776@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <07cce841-7497-e5b0-51a5-18e8f61c2cfb@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:48:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3edaaae7-43e5-e195-03a7-1cd70a846776@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 21:48:21 -0000 I'm a definite NO OBJECTION on these changes (i.e. I see no harm in them,=20 but I'm not sure of the necessity). Regards Brian Carpenter On 03-Nov-21 20:02, Eliot Lear wrote: > Thanks, Martin.=C2=A0 At this stage, there should be support for change= s. > Please discuss, agree or disagree. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 03.11.21 04:23, Martin Thomson wrote: >> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about = appeals. >> >> For #93, I suggest: >> >> OLD: >> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolve= d as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general po= licy. >> NEW: >> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolution= s for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a=20 more general policy. >> >> For #94, I suggest: >> >> ADD: >> Decisions of the RSAB can be appealed on grounds of failure to f= ollow the correct process. Where the RSAB makes a decision in order to re= solve a dispute (or for other reasons??), appeals can be filed on the bas= is that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established b= y the RSWG. In other cases, disagreements about the conduct of the RSAB a= re not subject to appeal. >> >> That is, we allow people to appeal if the RSAB is *wrong*, but we have=20 to allow the RSAB to resolve disputes. The policies will sometimes not c= over things and decisions need to be made. People can take their dispute=20 to the bodies that have delegates on the RSAB as a last resort. Also, pe= ople can attempt to convince the RSWG to set a policy that is different t= han what the RSAB might have decided in the heat of the moment. >> >> From nobody Wed Nov 3 14:54:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC463A126D for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6ipV0K3yp1L for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FB383A126B for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 75so3576573pga.3 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sjpAjKZQTGijIoBc6e2ogYKoQLanv/KImRZz0YWex5w=; b=A95Wj3cr7m529mbACxZcoxUAZ7+KttGh/s34TBOUJXWAwyId2vB0Ccj3NY+xlk4E4M +frLpP0NszHRtBfCNTe5es0kAHi6WjJ0COXnCaPWNYVrFTO+umkMm5lS+zmT/Yf0adao aIffLPKRaKzvMFD/ssGUuL8ap+1uWS28ut0qV3o6plvVwriglsf91kjCCAQnsl7bFlNF PT4W+g83fBmmA1pZVc3YnZiFf6VGNDGOczppy05GsDINWHlQP1sSgg7PhaZ6I59c1XiT 0Ay7fXnmqQkKphLR+y3SW4Yeeeis108IVVgREJaiEl5GCRzLdd+WpHeMSJyoD6kl3DVl OlmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sjpAjKZQTGijIoBc6e2ogYKoQLanv/KImRZz0YWex5w=; b=IT9USi4UEviys9Yc2qSNutXRp8G2Pg/12yKEw+D0TniKDsgOgkDiszsqk618M0poQ7 3r63xeLmKYxENWpggJJa/ujS7hlQKU3drx9/ZSzEx5QA3nSjzg+ZlmJ7tKuyjf4yjKBn 9vQpfnDucGLXm96R2U46a6bHwPKokbAaoAVSiTKKuFFYE9l1h5MQrnwieyk0+VGflu87 Jzg7sF9J1i7qXami4kL+RW8GgV01LIw7ZaW6/MLsHnS5qD31FPmU77SMPgN3kdQnsQ6V iMjQAh5XHZQHn+CcwunNqVGD77TJbkPic7d+WdvSc363IDTw9PLFREIUSwZCU14zojKY keEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Eg8S01FjQxTRz2MEOEEjYK8oCHhd1IQ2HbZbzJayZyh7EuzBr FcIEFl7RMS9/8L13IWGCFu5CSPbwOQkH1Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJws4mIfRL3VvkvhnuO+mIvo21aV1K8SffJ2dkxG+uwReNR5DEk8HxePzb9LofAwl23KXy5h3A== X-Received: by 2002:a63:83c6:: with SMTP id h189mr20682428pge.126.1635976436723; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d17sm3189173pfo.40.2021.11.03.14.53.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , John R Levine , Jay Daley , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> <6c363ee8-8bdf-94e7-3275-7e7afc0b13f4@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <624e05e3-78ea-304b-ff27-c9a77dfd15e4@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:53:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6c363ee8-8bdf-94e7-3275-7e7afc0b13f4@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 21:54:00 -0000 On 03-Nov-21 20:08, Eliot Lear wrote: > John, >=20 > On 02.11.21 20:16, John R Levine wrote: >> >> There's no way we can anticpate all of the issues that would come up. >> This is why I keep saying we need to empower people to recognize and >> deal with routine stuff, while still sending significant issues up to >> the committees. >=20 >=20 > I proposed relaxing the text to allow the RSCE to give unsolicited > advice to the RPC, but leaving the authority to make changes to the RPC= > and LLC.=C2=A0 Would that be acceptable? =20 We already say "The RSCE provides expert advice to the RPC and RSAB on how to implement established policies on an ongoing and operational basis,..." That doesn't exclude unsolicited advice and it leaves authority with the = RPC and LLC. So I don't see why we need more text. Brian > Otherwise, what sort of change are > you looking for?=C2=A0 Absent an answer to either question, we cannot p= roceed > on this issue. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 3 14:56:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82483A127C for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Iey3xlaZgVy for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F3E73A126B for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id h74so3822007pfe.0 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:56:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wTnDkj7fL5PIyO8RbEY/0zt9yx4Dho5KRvkWDnxiYck=; b=fIdMSoqbkCtMT2SM2RT0jQj+GSI/3EARMYuMUb/uOOGDheWvbV6Lu7gYvcizsy0IYh vxQEHnbsaxM2dFf+jrrXBTORmxZFyZ6DyMKJ9sS6TqPF444lRtAeVyNxi6FeiNgGJVDX +fCC4/rEixJWcFU4pfDnsMAEyEg37SwCjNNB6efaSllmCRAaVHEkZTrMZIhDM7KSlzre 0ky4kjvPC53akETo822CYvnz9umFJ2a3KsuRyjbsKCt2w8N3YsB+Wed2UaTcCrCmfFA9 PTbvHddIrYKc6U85v165xIP39xTHl+Kt20R3RprU2mHS9FNibL6gm/ihTixKTNyiGoQl UW5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wTnDkj7fL5PIyO8RbEY/0zt9yx4Dho5KRvkWDnxiYck=; b=vpHTOeScd7hcfr/7+YlbQq/y5s7ebZkcSfF0K62yWIYskULxSRVZO4+1kE5oQ/7m0M 86fJ1zd2EI+4siMRl4nT7x3sp3JTD4yVbTRts2XwCbx4MrotJAcYBO/FErwqlUEGBm3s 2JUVOx1SdknQ/mHPFzTtczqlWLqj26GfD7A9YSbRvzGBoqWXu0TgUDqabEPTxb4kcXYF VvlkBHCO3/rZ8ac/NiV7F5C+nWSoingmAQrZ49k/HLvBbqcs2Bv5npsNkCx6qQycqcq+ VK/CITcXdplNigN4JLo94JgpeQaQ6zjk1xoqHMiATc3lYiJvpfWHRTNt7AYt6r0fBVlD EKNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532GQOohmp6OkRsOwusRHkS2Jn/d1MwxXnkadwxOecO1QdpiyOe5 9kvVxD0yEYYGga8u42SKmYbuOInz9Td9bg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxWWhE6S5Sik1haQaRp9flLLGRCiw1L77ycOxisJTOoWiyUw9DoqegTkR8LJ7lIfubEX0Dlow== X-Received: by 2002:a63:6945:: with SMTP id e66mr4701041pgc.9.1635976603380; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e12sm2675657pgv.82.2021.11.03.14.56.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:56:42 -0700 (PDT) To: John Levine , rfced-future@iab.org Cc: mnot@mnot.net References: <20211103181637.CA8FA2F7664E@ary.qy> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <62a9f1cb-9085-3792-f496-45abc7c5e62a@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:56:38 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20211103181637.CA8FA2F7664E@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 21:56:51 -0000 On 04-Nov-21 07:16, John Levine wrote: > It appears that Mark Nottingham said: >> 1) Who determines how the RFC Series is presented to and interacts with the world. E.g., the web site. This is the 'authority' issue discussed before. > > Historically it has been the RSE and RPC, or in practice AMS. > > If we are claiming the IETF gets to manage that site, we have severe mission creep. Agreed. But where does the draft suggest or imply that? Brian > > R's, > John > > PS: Insert the long "the RFC series isn't just the IETF" string here. > From nobody Wed Nov 3 17:50:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F583A1510 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4bWBHK3f9hR for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C69E33A150C for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A8B4B0B40D; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihmjD9H__PGZ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DD024B0B407; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:50:44 +1300 Message-Id: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> References: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 00:50:55 -0000 > On 3/11/2021, at 3:22 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 2 Nov 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about improving t= he RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about improving the RFC Edi= tor service as Eliot describes it? >=20 > The web presence is the most obvious and important aspect. If it simplifie= s the discussion, I'm happy to limit it to the web presence, since that's 99= % of non-IETF folks' experience with the RFC Series. Great. So what I want to do now is break that down into pieces and examine e= ach one. The tl;dr of what follows is that there are two gaps but neither ne= ed to be tackled in this proposed new model. Piece 1 - strategic. Examples of what I mean here are: - how does the rfc-editor site balance its three purposes of publishing RFCs= , being the home of the RFC editor function and being the source of info for= the AUTH48 process, or should they be split into multiple sites - what=E2=80=99s the expected user experience for non-IETF consumers of RFCs= For me this piece sits clearly in the proposed RSWG/RSAB process. However, a= nd this is a big however, I don=E2=80=99t think that there has so far been a= ny attempt to discuss and agree a community consensus on the strategy for th= e site and so this would mean quite a new direction for those discussions. I= f an RFC were published that contained an overall strategic plan then that w= ould ease much of the friction below.=20 Piece 2 - functional design. Examples of what I mean here are: - should this site offer full text search of RFCs - what should be the default page/format presented to those finding an RFC These decisions were previously made by the RSE and as I understand it, this= is where you see the need for a lighter weight consensus process than a new= RFC. While that=E2=80=99s preferable to another sole decision maker, it sti= ll means that these decisions are being made without an overall strategy and= will be patchy as a result. (That assumes that it is possible to reach a l= ightweight consensus on these matters which I doubt).=20 We are better off considering this as a new type of implementation task - im= plementation of the strategy from piece 1 above - that should be delegated t= o a focused team that reports back to the community but doesn=E2=80=99t requ= ire community consensus. Currently I don=E2=80=99t see any suitable team tha= t brings together all the right groups (Community, RPC, Tools) and so there i= s a gap. =20 Piece 3 - content. Examples of what I mean here are: - the overall plan for what content appears on the site and what doesn=E2=80= =99t=20 - how to integrate content from different sources (staff, RFCs, volunteers, e= xternal sites) into a seamless content experience.=20 Again this was under the sole purview of the RSE but it=E2=80=99s obvious to= me that the absence of an overall content strategy for all our web presence= s meant that the end result was bound to be messy. The overlaps between rfc= -editor.org, Datatracker, www.Ietf.org and tools.Ietf.org are strong evidenc= e for that.=20 For now this sits with the RPC/LLC but there is still a gap though one much l= arger than just this site - we need ways to improve community involvement in= all content for all of our web presences. =20 Piece 4 - infrastructure. Examples of what I mean here are: - ensuring that we don=E2=80=99t go another five years between server upgrad= es - optimising content delivery to various parts of the internet Again this was previously managed by the RSE and I believe this is now for t= he LLC to manage through setting contractual expectations and SLAs with our o= utsourced IT team based on ongoing community consultation.=20 Sorry for the long post, but how does that analysis match with others=E2=80=99= understanding? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > Cheers,=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 3 19:33:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082323A15E1 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 19:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=H6yrlKVv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=BDDCktqh Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JYGLmpz_mp2q for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 19:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 880F63A15E4 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 19:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27AE5C00FD; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 22:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 03 Nov 2021 22:32:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=o zMcKSdZaPIqgYLSNI8qIk5+odgXhi8PZP1KgUoxzmw=; b=H6yrlKVvLMFREFP/E JrYEGHRGPMh9O/l+lgfcW0V8ifvGeQwzkWBFhlP8Ychmbz6dRIbmCZIydkPK4llm ESmSxTROxtpSWplFnohWMYxqdyxXZ6nZaAG1Zs4gze2+MhEvWSn+G3LC3xtLNJ9g Ze24B7+yS4dNlmIFxJ8MZJDfDFavjirzd/TPGYk9w4/pkhKVyuybiNdr3remgzs7 YMNEF3vE23fB8uwePuH5z8FVmW7E3FxPNKxOhpAUmKkD3zg4uthGT/wCFLqDTRqt l0iVr73QiGiNdJHeLxrq7Hckc84Ojc+FyyzLlX31qSGbIugjjHvbiJJkf1zZvQTL hqeNw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ozMcKSdZaPIqgYLSNI8qIk5+odgXhi8PZP1KgUoxz mw=; b=BDDCktqh2zTTzDpR7LHfe7/r+SouZitSmGxYRwVHpgBpajvZ+0sdSj/Sz CkilFFovkdCES87UjkaUj6F8TGl8v5ioth1BvpvStBSq2oYQRH+SEW7COJ90F8o6 gcseteZaLBPVaTvDEDicrNp8xr6Le8o6SeGJi90Q1AA+erxXkd7Tz3FZN4cI4xr2 8w8bA+HrdxaPtp4ezLIZh+4w041EIlnSF7+9bxIIGt4evO1D2UFFY00Y7fDy+rP+ jcPqVRdh0N9Riygj5byffzAogWCG9NWSV/9JnjhrN1fVMfFmBOvPZrUuuEc35ExK D8P2BhtzkRMOcLlkiz2KjewthT9ng== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtdefgdeghecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepudegveeigfehffeghfeghfffudegfeeuudeghedtgfetleefgfffuddtffejteef necuffhomhgrihhnpehrfhgtqdgvughithhorhdrohhrghdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnh hothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:32:50 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 02:33:01 -0000 Hi Jay, Thanks, that's very helpful. Responses below. > On 4 Nov 2021, at 11:50 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >> On 3/11/2021, at 3:22 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>> So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about = improving the RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about = improving the RFC Editor service as Eliot describes it? >>=20 >> The web presence is the most obvious and important aspect. If it = simplifies the discussion, I'm happy to limit it to the web presence, = since that's 99% of non-IETF folks' experience with the RFC Series. >=20 > Great. So what I want to do now is break that down into pieces and = examine each one. The tl;dr of what follows is that there are two gaps = but neither need to be tackled in this proposed new model. >=20 > Piece 1 - strategic. Examples of what I mean here are: > - how does the rfc-editor site balance its three purposes of = publishing RFCs, being the home of the RFC editor function and being the = source of info for the AUTH48 process, or should they be split into = multiple sites > - what=E2=80=99s the expected user experience for non-IETF consumers = of RFCs >=20 > For me this piece sits clearly in the proposed RSWG/RSAB process. = However, and this is a big however, I don=E2=80=99t think that there has = so far been any attempt to discuss and agree a community consensus on = the strategy for the site and so this would mean quite a new direction = for those discussions. If an RFC were published that contained an = overall strategic plan then that would ease much of the friction below.=20= Yes. > Piece 2 - functional design. Examples of what I mean here are: > - should this site offer full text search of RFCs > - what should be the default page/format presented to those finding an = RFC >=20 > These decisions were previously made by the RSE and as I understand = it, this is where you see the need for a lighter weight consensus = process than a new RFC. While that=E2=80=99s preferable to another sole = decision maker, it still means that these decisions are being made = without an overall strategy and will be patchy as a result. (That = assumes that it is possible to reach a lightweight consensus on these = matters which I doubt).=20 >=20 > We are better off considering this as a new type of implementation = task - implementation of the strategy from piece 1 above - that should = be delegated to a focused team that reports back to the community but = doesn=E2=80=99t require community consensus. Currently I don=E2=80=99t = see any suitable team that brings together all the right groups = (Community, RPC, Tools) and so there is a gap. =20 Yes, but am wary of forming yet more isolated teams that are supposed to = represent the community but are really just an exclusive group with = little accountability or communication.=20 > Piece 3 - content. Examples of what I mean here are: > - the overall plan for what content appears on the site and what = doesn=E2=80=99t=20 Is this what we've been talking about as 'authority'? It's more than a = plan, I think -- it can also be reactive. > - how to integrate content from different sources (staff, RFCs, = volunteers, external sites) into a seamless content experience.=20 >=20 > Again this was under the sole purview of the RSE but it=E2=80=99s = obvious to me that the absence of an overall content strategy for all = our web presences meant that the end result was bound to be messy. The = overlaps between rfc-editor.org, Datatracker, www.Ietf.org and = tools.Ietf.org are strong evidence for that.=20 >=20 > For now this sits with the RPC/LLC but there is still a gap though one = much larger than just this site - we need ways to improve community = involvement in all content for all of our web presences. =20 I think the authority needs to sit in the community, not the LLC. It = might be delegated for small things, but if there's a decision to be = made about what content appears on the site (e.g., because there's a = dispute about what should be said), that shouldn't be made by the LLC or = RPC. The execution of content (writing, editing, HTML, etc.) might often = come from the LLC or a contractor, of course. > Piece 4 - infrastructure. Examples of what I mean here are: > - ensuring that we don=E2=80=99t go another five years between server = upgrades > - optimising content delivery to various parts of the internet >=20 > Again this was previously managed by the RSE and I believe this is now = for the LLC to manage through setting contractual expectations and SLAs = with our outsourced IT team based on ongoing community consultation.=20 Yes. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 3 20:13:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B943A0646 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NS4_YlpTh1KP for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5DE03A0637 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79394B0B416; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YgGX8NYfI2i; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E408B4B0B414; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:13:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <5B139057-BAFE-454F-A600-36FDFFBAA1AE@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD0642E7-89CC-4203-9D91-B00FE7F420B1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:13:11 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: rfced-future@iab.org To: Mark Nottingham References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 03:13:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD0642E7-89CC-4203-9D91-B00FE7F420B1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 4/11/2021, at 3:32 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 > Thanks, that's very helpful. Responses below. >=20 >> On 4 Nov 2021, at 11:50 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >>> On 3/11/2021, at 3:22 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about = improving the RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about = improving the RFC Editor service as Eliot describes it? >>>=20 >>> The web presence is the most obvious and important aspect. If it = simplifies the discussion, I'm happy to limit it to the web presence, = since that's 99% of non-IETF folks' experience with the RFC Series. >>=20 >> Great. So what I want to do now is break that down into pieces and = examine each one. The tl;dr of what follows is that there are two gaps = but neither need to be tackled in this proposed new model. >>=20 >> Piece 1 - strategic. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - how does the rfc-editor site balance its three purposes of = publishing RFCs, being the home of the RFC editor function and being the = source of info for the AUTH48 process, or should they be split into = multiple sites >> - what=E2=80=99s the expected user experience for non-IETF consumers = of RFCs >>=20 >> For me this piece sits clearly in the proposed RSWG/RSAB process. = However, and this is a big however, I don=E2=80=99t think that there has = so far been any attempt to discuss and agree a community consensus on = the strategy for the site and so this would mean quite a new direction = for those discussions. If an RFC were published that contained an = overall strategic plan then that would ease much of the friction below.=20= >=20 > Yes. >=20 >> Piece 2 - functional design. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - should this site offer full text search of RFCs >> - what should be the default page/format presented to those finding = an RFC >>=20 >> These decisions were previously made by the RSE and as I understand = it, this is where you see the need for a lighter weight consensus = process than a new RFC. While that=E2=80=99s preferable to another sole = decision maker, it still means that these decisions are being made = without an overall strategy and will be patchy as a result. (That = assumes that it is possible to reach a lightweight consensus on these = matters which I doubt).=20 >>=20 >> We are better off considering this as a new type of implementation = task - implementation of the strategy from piece 1 above - that should = be delegated to a focused team that reports back to the community but = doesn=E2=80=99t require community consensus. Currently I don=E2=80=99t = see any suitable team that brings together all the right groups = (Community, RPC, Tools) and so there is a gap. =20 >=20 > Yes, but am wary of forming yet more isolated teams that are supposed = to represent the community but are really just an exclusive group with = little accountability or communication.=20 I agree, such a group would need clear terms of reference / operating = procedures to prevent it becoming that. That=E2=80=99s still preferable = than attempting to reach consensus on this level of detail as I think = that would be unworkable. >=20 >> Piece 3 - content. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - the overall plan for what content appears on the site and what = doesn=E2=80=99t=20 >=20 > Is this what we've been talking about as 'authority'? It's more than a = plan, I think -- it can also be reactive. No idea - I find this focus on static =E2=80=99authority=E2=80=99 rather = than the dynamic process of change to be a distorted lens. Yes I agree = it can be and should be reactive too.=20 >=20 >> - how to integrate content from different sources (staff, RFCs, = volunteers, external sites) into a seamless content experience.=20 >>=20 >> Again this was under the sole purview of the RSE but it=E2=80=99s = obvious to me that the absence of an overall content strategy for all = our web presences meant that the end result was bound to be messy. The = overlaps between rfc-editor.org , Datatracker, = www.Ietf.org and tools.Ietf.org = are strong evidence for that.=20 >>=20 >> For now this sits with the RPC/LLC but there is still a gap though = one much larger than just this site - we need ways to improve community = involvement in all content for all of our web presences. =20 >=20 > I think the authority needs to sit in the community, not the LLC. It = might be delegated for small things, but if there's a decision to be = made about what content appears on the site (e.g., because there's a = dispute about what should be said), that shouldn't be made by the LLC or = RPC. The execution of content (writing, editing, HTML, etc.) might often = come from the LLC or a contractor, of course. Yes I fully agree this needs to be community-led. My point is that = content changes and content planning is needed every day and until a = community-led structure emerges, the LLC is by default picking this up, = taking whatever lead it can from the IESG, EMODIR, tools users, = individual community members, etc. My personal goals, which were = publicly consulted on, cover some parts of this. Jay >=20 >=20 >> Piece 4 - infrastructure. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - ensuring that we don=E2=80=99t go another five years between server = upgrades >> - optimising content delivery to various parts of the internet >>=20 >> Again this was previously managed by the RSE and I believe this is = now for the LLC to manage through setting contractual expectations and = SLAs with our outsourced IT team based on ongoing community = consultation.=20 >=20 > Yes. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_BD0642E7-89CC-4203-9D91-B00FE7F420B1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 4/11/2021, at 3:32 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> = wrote:

Hi Jay,

Thanks, that's very helpful. Responses below.

On 4 = Nov 2021, at 11:50 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

On 3/11/2021, at 3:22 = PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF

On 2 Nov = 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about = improving the RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about = improving the RFC Editor service as Eliot describes it?

The web presence is the most = obvious and important aspect. If it simplifies the discussion, I'm happy = to limit it to the web presence, since that's 99% of non-IETF folks' = experience with the RFC Series.

Great. So what I want to do now is break that down into = pieces and examine each one. The tl;dr of what follows is that there are = two gaps but neither need to be tackled in this proposed new model.

Piece 1 - strategic.  Examples of what I = mean here are:
- how does the rfc-editor site balance its = three purposes of publishing RFCs, being the home of the RFC editor = function and being the source of info for the AUTH48 process, or should = they be split into multiple sites
- what=E2=80=99s the = expected user experience for non-IETF consumers of RFCs

For me this piece sits clearly in the proposed RSWG/RSAB = process. However, and this is a big however, I don=E2=80=99t think that = there has so far been any attempt to discuss and agree a community = consensus on the strategy for the site and so this would mean quite a = new direction for those discussions.  If an RFC were published that = contained an overall strategic plan then that would ease much of the = friction below. 

Yes.

Piece 2 - functional design. =  Examples of what I mean here are:
- should this site = offer full text search of RFCs
- what should be the = default page/format presented to those finding an RFC

These decisions were previously made by the RSE and as I = understand it, this is where you see the need for a lighter weight = consensus process than a new RFC. While that=E2=80=99s preferable to = another sole decision maker, it still means that these decisions are = being made without an overall strategy and will be patchy as a result. = (That assumes that it is possible to reach a lightweight consensus on = these matters which I doubt). 

We are better off considering this as a new type of = implementation task - implementation of the strategy from piece 1 above = - that should be delegated to a focused team that reports back to the = community but doesn=E2=80=99t require community consensus. Currently I = don=E2=80=99t see any suitable team that brings together all the right = groups (Community, RPC, Tools) and so there is a gap.   

Yes, but am wary of forming yet more isolated teams that are = supposed to represent the community but are really just an exclusive = group with little accountability or communication. 

I agree, such a = group would need clear terms of reference / operating procedures to = prevent it becoming that.  That=E2=80=99s still preferable than = attempting to reach consensus on this level of detail as I think that = would be unworkable.



Piece = 3 - content. Examples of what I mean here are:
- the = overall plan for what content appears on the site and what = doesn=E2=80=99t 

Is this what we've been talking about as 'authority'? It's = more than a plan, I think -- it can also be reactive.

No idea - I = find this focus on static =E2=80=99authority=E2=80=99 rather than the = dynamic process of change to be a distorted lens.  Yes I agree it = can be and should be reactive too. 


- how to integrate content from = different sources (staff, RFCs, volunteers, external sites) into a = seamless content experience. 

Again this was under the sole purview of the RSE but it=E2=80=99= s obvious to me that the absence of an overall content strategy for all = our web presences meant that the end result was bound to be messy. =  The overlaps between rfc-editor.org, = Datatracker, www.Ietf.org and tools.Ietf.org are strong evidence for = that. 
For now this sits with the RPC/LLC but there is still a gap = though one much larger than just this site - we need ways to improve = community involvement in all content for all of our web presences. =  

I think the authority needs to sit in the community, not the = LLC. It might be delegated for small things, but if there's a decision = to be made about what content appears on the site (e.g., because there's = a dispute about what should be said), that shouldn't be made by the LLC = or RPC. The execution of content (writing, editing, HTML, etc.) might = often come from the LLC or a contractor, of course.

Yes I fully = agree this needs to be community-led.  My point is that content = changes and content planning is needed every day and until a = community-led structure emerges, the LLC is by default picking this up, = taking whatever lead it can from the IESG, EMODIR, tools users, = individual community members, etc.  My personal goals, which were = publicly consulted on, cover some parts of this.

Jay



Piece 4 - infrastructure. Examples of = what I mean here are:
- ensuring that we don=E2=80=99t go = another five years between server upgrades
- optimising = content delivery to various parts of the internet

Again this was previously managed by the RSE and I believe = this is now for the LLC to manage through setting contractual = expectations and SLAs with our outsourced IT team based on ongoing = community consultation. 

Yes.

Cheers,

--
Mark = Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_BD0642E7-89CC-4203-9D91-B00FE7F420B1-- From nobody Wed Nov 3 23:19:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAB63A091C for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:19:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqTNRhPsMb_r for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:19:20 -0700 (PDT) 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NSGOtUKlfzKIBWs9qCufVBxMBM/ewhhUlumcj31BiZ3K01d0A1CFMnqmJ2oJv4lkkW cG8SbLMEEWSFuviaXTgB79ONMjplrU+zo2IvUCgQ= Message-ID: <563ea667-56f0-b95d-c33d-f811e6dbf584@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:19:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , John R Levine Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> <6c363ee8-8bdf-94e7-3275-7e7afc0b13f4@lear.ch> <624e05e3-78ea-304b-ff27-c9a77dfd15e4@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <624e05e3-78ea-304b-ff27-c9a77dfd15e4@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Bji11Ytg1MCXGaYRMxmBRPU0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org 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wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGDe1cFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOe aAf+ODl7Tt9A9SgK0BO2odX4Vq8Z1J0tJT0oNlGzL+aon/gbRzF2zDpyorcb+uq/pECRNUiKuivS M++LIOrtjVt5Uxxxmw3lRPCwQV/aIdEoKGl7JXIdDcOljk3EGaLfBeM/pQ43YTOTQ0w94CnA6cXu u9fQUZlaLSpTHizhbBBcAVI5lXdLS4Lo2fB1+yIswLq4FizvJkPV/5uP3McBZBJBOQ7loysy4Gc1 BAdHXdWSgWTvhm2gSyClvJ3x714g+nYFPUM6dJ75/g29m32rh67CQjnWrgeVh/UTvjxCf228k0Eg kWsfxY17VIfVRm4YT5686k2Q0qHh3nYWd3bdNOozHg== =oqzx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------Bji11Ytg1MCXGaYRMxmBRPU0-- From nobody Wed Nov 3 23:28:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D1C3A0942 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTFGboQg19EI for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490883A0934 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB764A6571D; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jYdpfyZPeo7; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42D744A40EF6; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 23:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <563ea667-56f0-b95d-c33d-f811e6dbf584@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:27:47 +1300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , John R Levine , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <54B764B1-E6E9-4F81-9C16-24C922543F4C@ietf.org> <15C0D158-930D-45D0-94C5-EB9F99820784@ietf.org> <1F8BF0CC-E23B-4AF1-BFDE-C75A486BDB64@ietf.org> <6c363ee8-8bdf-94e7-3275-7e7afc0b13f4@lear.ch> <624e05e3-78ea-304b-ff27-c9a77dfd15e4@gmail.com> <563ea667-56f0-b95d-c33d-f811e6dbf584@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:59 -0000 > On 4/11/2021, at 7:19 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, >=20 > On 03.11.21 22:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>=20 >>> I proposed relaxing the text to allow the RSCE to give unsolicited >>> advice to the RPC, but leaving the authority to make changes to the = RPC >>> and LLC. Would that be acceptable?=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> We already say >> "The RSCE provides expert advice to the RPC and RSAB on how to >> implement established policies on an ongoing and operational >> basis,..." >> That doesn't exclude unsolicited advice and it leaves authority with = the RPC and LLC. So I don't see why we need more text. >=20 >=20 > But we ALSO say the following: >=20 >> "If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC". >>=20 >=20 > That implies, don't provide expert advice unless requested. My = proposal is simply to remove the words, =E2=80=9Cif requested". >=20 > And then directly below that: >=20 >> Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the >> following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]): >=20 > That again implies that the RSCE must be passive until consulted. My = suggestion was to reword slightly: >=20 >> Matters on which the RSCE might provide guidance could include the >> following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]): >=20 > I think this addresses John's concerns, but I'm not 100% sure. I support both of these changes. There=E2=80=99s no need to frame this = role as reactive only. Jay >=20 > Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Nov 4 05:57:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477943A0AE2; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cW7nr1ZDA2in; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5BA63A0AE1; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1micJM-00077D-GD; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 13:57:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:57:43 +0100 Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636030669;a11ceca3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1micJM-00077D-GD Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 12:57:55 -0000 Hi Jay, hi Mark, Jay thanks for spitting this up. I mostly agree just one more comment = below. > On 4. Nov 2021, at 03:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 > Thanks, that's very helpful. Responses below. >=20 >> On 4 Nov 2021, at 11:50 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >>> On 3/11/2021, at 3:22 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 7:36 pm, Jay Daley = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> So that I=E2=80=99m clear, is your concern specifically about = improving the RFC Editor web presence or is it more broadly about = improving the RFC Editor service as Eliot describes it? >>>=20 >>> The web presence is the most obvious and important aspect. If it = simplifies the discussion, I'm happy to limit it to the web presence, = since that's 99% of non-IETF folks' experience with the RFC Series. >>=20 >> Great. So what I want to do now is break that down into pieces and = examine each one. The tl;dr of what follows is that there are two gaps = but neither need to be tackled in this proposed new model. >>=20 >> Piece 1 - strategic. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - how does the rfc-editor site balance its three purposes of = publishing RFCs, being the home of the RFC editor function and being the = source of info for the AUTH48 process, or should they be split into = multiple sites >> - what=E2=80=99s the expected user experience for non-IETF consumers = of RFCs >>=20 >> For me this piece sits clearly in the proposed RSWG/RSAB process. = However, and this is a big however, I don=E2=80=99t think that there has = so far been any attempt to discuss and agree a community consensus on = the strategy for the site and so this would mean quite a new direction = for those discussions. If an RFC were published that contained an = overall strategic plan then that would ease much of the friction below.=20= >=20 > Yes. >=20 >> Piece 2 - functional design. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - should this site offer full text search of RFCs >> - what should be the default page/format presented to those finding = an RFC >>=20 >> These decisions were previously made by the RSE and as I understand = it, this is where you see the need for a lighter weight consensus = process than a new RFC. While that=E2=80=99s preferable to another sole = decision maker, it still means that these decisions are being made = without an overall strategy and will be patchy as a result. (That = assumes that it is possible to reach a lightweight consensus on these = matters which I doubt).=20 >>=20 >> We are better off considering this as a new type of implementation = task - implementation of the strategy from piece 1 above - that should = be delegated to a focused team that reports back to the community but = doesn=E2=80=99t require community consensus. Currently I don=E2=80=99t = see any suitable team that brings together all the right groups = (Community, RPC, Tools) and so there is a gap. =20 >=20 > Yes, but am wary of forming yet more isolated teams that are supposed = to represent the community but are really just an exclusive group with = little accountability or communication.=20 >=20 >> Piece 3 - content. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - the overall plan for what content appears on the site and what = doesn=E2=80=99t=20 >=20 > Is this what we've been talking about as 'authority'? It's more than a = plan, I think -- it can also be reactive. >=20 >> - how to integrate content from different sources (staff, RFCs, = volunteers, external sites) into a seamless content experience.=20 >>=20 >> Again this was under the sole purview of the RSE but it=E2=80=99s = obvious to me that the absence of an overall content strategy for all = our web presences meant that the end result was bound to be messy. The = overlaps between rfc-editor.org, Datatracker, www.Ietf.org and = tools.Ietf.org are strong evidence for that.=20 >>=20 >> For now this sits with the RPC/LLC but there is still a gap though = one much larger than just this site - we need ways to improve community = involvement in all content for all of our web presences. =20 >=20 > I think the authority needs to sit in the community, not the LLC.It = might be delegated for small things, but if there's a decision to be = made about what content appears on the site (e.g., because there's a = dispute about what should be said), that shouldn't be made by the LLC or = RPC. The execution of content (writing, editing, HTML, etc.) might often = come from the LLC or a contractor, of course. I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with the = the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is with = the IESG which a board of community members selected by community = member. This is not the case for the RPC, so I think the authority over = the content of the rfc-editor.org page should also not sit with the RPC. = While there is work to improve community involvement for all pages, the = is an actual gap in authority for the rfc-editor.org page. >=20 >=20 >> Piece 4 - infrastructure. Examples of what I mean here are: >> - ensuring that we don=E2=80=99t go another five years between server = upgrades >> - optimising content delivery to various parts of the internet >>=20 >> Again this was previously managed by the RSE and I believe this is = now for the LLC to manage through setting contractual expectations and = SLAs with our outsourced IT team based on ongoing community = consultation.=20 >=20 > Yes. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 4 06:00:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1C13A0AE4; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IISVJSA09ale; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C07513A0AE2; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A4Cxon42633929 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:59:51 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636030791; bh=F8qIFvIaCnm7KuQWpdXCIWjG8UkHibESjySVLZcDmSo=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=b0eOh6AmZ/RFJsh04vUQpwqzpdYf/sGYLilx3ss/1Z4782IM0IYE4cebHxWzbTmvI fvy3bEm9STKy1wdhGXRncFLkQI9zUfu5oJCXexASgUSO3BDRgTf6c3xdZII+sXKR9k BaEDHciSqAQQg5RelViydP530fUbCi0pX5zdM454= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:59:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------KwZSNzFuFeMuUldBP7XgFwGQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 13:00:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------KwZSNzFuFeMuUldBP7XgFwGQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5xG2EETaNOxlIF3J3dd79BPt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: --------------5xG2EETaNOxlIF3J3dd79BPt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------rViVTAVtgqCuvBhqAuSeTBTk" --------------rViVTAVtgqCuvBhqAuSeTBTk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpPbiAwNC4xMS4yMSAxMzo1NywgTWlyamEgS3VlaGxld2luZCB3cm90ZToNCj4gSSBhZ3Jl ZSBhdXRob3JpdHkgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgb2YgYW55IHBhZ2Ugc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBz aXQgd2l0aCB0aGUgdGhlIExMQy4gRm9yIHRoZSBpZXRmLm9yZyBwYWdlIGFuZCB0aGUgZGF0 YXRyYWNrZXIgdGhlIGF1dGhvcml0eSBpcyB3aXRoIHRoZSBJRVNHIHdoaWNoIGEgYm9hcmQg b2YgY29tbXVuaXR5IG1lbWJlcnMgc2VsZWN0ZWQgYnkgY29tbXVuaXR5IG1lbWJlci4NCg0K UHJlY2lzZWx5IHdoZXJlIGRvZXMgaXQgc2F5IHRoYXQ/wqAgTWF5YmUgd2UgY2FuIG1vZGVs IHRoYXQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg== --------------rViVTAVtgqCuvBhqAuSeTBTk Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; 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wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGD2UYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNC SQf/dgT1tCK/KNCwHlcF1H4o6zrJs1VKxL/wuO/dsea8cbGqySADc+u15hTxG4QhGhd/PyTKiLkZ Pc04mTzsbmu1sCyXPKeQiDNEHzGVbJGM+F6c2Ak4vfceMNpAJiGKfbtHmUufE10dfSjwvaaUbNXb /tb8rJiugRXqlCcVX33Hcxjfheci7jtwsFPK7hgbKmdlyaWJg36iS+opohMd4es/Ys7mNW3NtHnj XuQsmykjhi7UFr1q6DwpQBSqcA0p/1M8Tw5P+ZkN+0TjG8UOOBLwuPmLOHvCRPAHcv2gRUALScUx w9qMt8KjdBvOjAuAdYD6pQGOThOwLcKbNcjCY8poNg== =Z2PM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------KwZSNzFuFeMuUldBP7XgFwGQ-- From nobody Thu Nov 4 06:10:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E77E3A0B97; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:10:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZI_krZPwEaRh; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E5503A0B79; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1micVM-0001xD-88; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 14:10:08 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:10:07 +0100 Cc: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org, "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636031413;385d19ff; X-HE-SMSGID: 1micVM-0001xD-88 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 13:10:18 -0000 Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say =E2=80=9C[Th= e IESG] also administers IETF logistics, including operation of the Internet-Draft document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web pages as = part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D. This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and when the = old ietf.org page was still up. =46rom the RFC it seems, however, quite = cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in scope = for the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side = where authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities = (e.g. information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). Mirja > On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with = the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is = with the IESG which a board of community members selected by community = member. >=20 > Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that language. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > From nobody Thu Nov 4 06:38:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3643A0C17 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqXxWBuzwpwP for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044903A1166 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:32:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ZyCrW8q3Y8N for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AC6C3A0E25 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mifea-0005tn-WE; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:31:53 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:31:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636043519;31ff66a6; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mifea-0005tn-WE Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:32:11 -0000 Catching up on this point again. Even if we don=E2=80=99t want to be too = specific I think the text could be stronger, so here is a proposal: OLD Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. The RSAB = and RSWG should also send notices to other communities that may be = interested in or impacted by a proposal as they see fit, following = policies for those communities as appropriate.=20 NEW Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. If deemed = appropriate, each stream representative on the RSAB should confirm = consensus among its appointing body or stream community using the = established processes of that stream.=20 Further, the RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities = that may be interested in or impacted by a proposal as they see fit, = following policies for those communities as appropriate.=20 Do people find that useful? > On 30. Oct 2021, at 00:43, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 30-Oct-21 05:04, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Hi all >> I opened this issue: >> #109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org = in stone? >> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109 >=20 > OLD: > Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. >=20 > NEW: > Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list or its = equivalent. >=20 >> To check whether we want to hard-code the rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org = list into this draft. >> However, I have one more question: >> The respective section only specifies that calls must be sent to = rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org and may be send elsewhere. I know this point = touches on the hard question of who is the community but I would = expected that we would at least try to ensure to consult with those = communities that we know about. >> My assumption was that maybe the stream managers, potentially not = necessarily for all documents but based on their judgement, would also = send our calls to their respectively community. So maybe to last-call in = the IETF, to at least the iab@iab.org list but maybe even to other IAB = lists, and for the IRTF maybe the IRSG. >> Is this something we should write down as well or are my expectations = wrong? >=20 > I wouldn't write down the details because those details may change in = future. Just make it clear that we want wide distribution. Maybe just >=20 > OLD: > The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities... >=20 > NEW: > The RSAB and RSWG should also send notices widely to other = communities... >=20 > Brian >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 4 09:39:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172813A0E1A for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:39:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0yVIP8DMbOmh for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E057F3A0962 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 1A4G0KfK029074; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:39:05 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=vsogFJ7uOWzAFnyZOwQEkg/eozUBXI9qdFqN1HH4hc0=; b=jY1BmBUpIB9+yKH1mk19QyrxdK8I4dZHMM58LjuSJ75poucualxfwBGRix2sZELelzBG 4bVTqOG0cQDkQOBI3AvQIIwrMnPP7UQxrxolb+IldpZHCCLbIMVIHK+pIHZCL5RU5tvo JEydbAjsCs15n3qJgz9Gq0Rybk+7FuJkC59C/mWJC1pdRWqwJYDgh8cw2XYa0sNQG4oU y2oJd1f87w4gyRdSt7plz9Af6E8Qon7Rp4AS9q9PHI1QRSQBbVm4jhlqcLogJygOLyy3 qcXnBa7STZNj1qppPGFMwZOi8DardDt+Aut3miO96q0ri+7GSdhIguke2Gjh0jn2sEWp TA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3c44j7usnq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:39:05 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1A4GZrFF002294; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:39:04 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3c48sg0uh2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 09:39:04 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:39:03 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:39:03 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? Thread-Index: AQHXzN64FRBEqmySVE+mem1E/piYa6vq1heAgAkGKoD//77ugA== Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:39:03 +0000 Message-ID: <668E8B29-7D32-4A89-B267-A433420D1E1B@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.54.21101001 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-04_05:2021-11-03, 2021-11-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=897 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111040063 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: dVjrpfEkFWut93VmoiaYMpV_D4NT_p-p X-Proofpoint-GUID: dVjrpfEkFWut93VmoiaYMpV_D4NT_p-p X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-04_05,2021-11-03_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=841 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111040063 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:39:13 -0000 DQo+ICAgIE5vdGljZXMgd2lsbCBhbHdheXMgYmUgc2VudCB0byB0aGUgcmZjLWludGVyZXN0IG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdC4gDQoNCklzIGl0IHJlYWxseSBhIGdvb2QgaWRlYSB0byBlbWJlZCBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QgbmFtZXMgaW4gcG9saWN5IGRvY3VtZW50cz8NCg0K From nobody Thu Nov 4 09:42:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF08A3A1165 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:42:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfgHSwytlu40 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC1323A117C for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mifoN-0007rg-IL; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:41:59 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <668E8B29-7D32-4A89-B267-A433420D1E1B@akamai.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:41:58 +0100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1363282E-1B3C-4166-B818-D38544DE1952@kuehlewind.net> References: <668E8B29-7D32-4A89-B267-A433420D1E1B@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636044125;3abeee66; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mifoN-0007rg-IL Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:42:19 -0000 I ready opened an issue for this and the proposed resolution (by Brian = Carpenter) was to write "the rfc-interest mailing list or an equivalent.=E2=80=9D=20 > On 4. Nov 2021, at 17:39, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list.=20 >=20 > Is it really a good idea to embed mailing list names in policy = documents? >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 4 09:49:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924233A0A74 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b6SPm3kQBiIt for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9D463A0A65 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A4Gn4FE2777175 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:49:05 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636044545; bh=3gpg3vTi4cmb5ut8I/j6mNbr+x8vWl5nDOedkO8yzMk=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=dE779MAu9/xmiyaogRpPsSiSuazvlxhoa6fBqA2/gJe02QMWoqhffvGFOOKD6YpMj az0xJHoU+2cwFwPnpVyBgZOue4ZKDqItGTwbQdG+rRGb1oyW6+VmqrX4VI1uHK+K46 ZfA5fp8enM8BmtYTStNhiXLb8+CpsoCW25LH4A5Q= Message-ID: <6245e3a7-5339-e7e2-1358-cde55a412b13@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:49:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------MBIeF6f0PunxaNZjZ1MuBUkn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:49:14 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------MBIeF6f0PunxaNZjZ1MuBUkn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RxENt9glmyXTZszS1We0ddut"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6245e3a7-5339-e7e2-1358-cde55a412b13@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? 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Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGEDwAFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMu MQf9Gy5Lr/jw3KdVwe9Fnnhkur9s+z89h5Ws2FiECFUMjnuvHjedrh0J90PVS/sg99Jhinqe0Btv w22jqHTtH5uM5zEsJP3TGLKZF5zwCM7kejSQ7Iqv5BlsPOGFarZIoOWhZDahPhSFlLlX/oRK19mZ KNhlUkc49A0rYhLqENaDTr6Abt6jW4iK/qx0WHlNTxK8kRSJQUAuTk4ekjM+70U/yMqBbsOE38s6 78gqv2WYMRksyLKQFACqO7zc7UWlFxablepRU0t18Dit+Z1UbAqC72vyITI81siY6NtWSSwKlBlT ZIbdekGWtD8lqOUc9ZttIRhJ1y/117Q2lXg7DNeg6A== =h6+1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------MBIeF6f0PunxaNZjZ1MuBUkn-- From nobody Thu Nov 4 10:12:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F2E3A1158 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:12:47 -0700 (PDT) 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([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A4HCYf22788526 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:12:35 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636045956; bh=7uKrB19w6zUvGPEGVFnopfkP7EeRqdCjuP5tnceT/gc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Q0dGyvv8laEA2nkKRKex1vVG14yiBdOv8W3PIQc7DjgM09kZAyz+ou3KWYAPDNiYs 4GUxM4HbJm9MXI7ZJp8La+4MN88p+TCpmAvDEjCmjkSu22YFAaQbib6sFojrB7MKNg 4YOwcDLrVo8qhUokpaPv09XzHi6xGUnlls4aPkeI= Message-ID: <73f81a81-f2aa-2add-21fc-799c01e20442@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:12:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "Salz, Rich" Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <668E8B29-7D32-4A89-B267-A433420D1E1B@akamai.com> <1363282E-1B3C-4166-B818-D38544DE1952@kuehlewind.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <1363282E-1B3C-4166-B818-D38544DE1952@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------aLtYD8Fb4AhiNlglPza3NHVo" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:12:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------aLtYD8Fb4AhiNlglPza3NHVo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------mYLNQIeWNuvAco2wGK30uuWv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind , "Salz, Rich" Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <73f81a81-f2aa-2add-21fc-799c01e20442@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where to send community calls for comments? References: <668E8B29-7D32-4A89-B267-A433420D1E1B@akamai.com> <1363282E-1B3C-4166-B818-D38544DE1952@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <1363282E-1B3C-4166-B818-D38544DE1952@kuehlewind.net> --------------mYLNQIeWNuvAco2wGK30uuWv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------PKYRAGSrlcRr0kzUIbfLzpzO" --------------PKYRAGSrlcRr0kzUIbfLzpzO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSd2ZSBzZWVuIG5vIG9iamVjdGlvbiB0byB0aGlzLsKgIElzIHRoZXJlIGFueT8NCg0KRWxp b3QNCg0KT24gMDQuMTEuMjEgMTc6NDEsIE1pcmphIEt1ZWhsZXdpbmQgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEkg cmVhZHkgb3BlbmVkIGFuIGlzc3VlIGZvciB0aGlzIGFuZCB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgcmVzb2x1 dGlvbiAoYnkgQnJpYW4gQ2FycGVudGVyKSB3YXMgdG8gd3JpdGUNCj4NCj4gInRoZSByZmMt aW50ZXJlc3QgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IG9yIGFuIGVxdWl2YWxlbnQu4oCdDQo+DQo+DQo+PiBP biA0LiBOb3YgMjAyMSwgYXQgMTc6MzksIFNhbHosIFJpY2ggPHJzYWx6QGFrYW1haS5jb20+ IHdyb3RlOg0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pj4gICAgTm90aWNlcyB3aWxsIGFsd2F5cyBiZSBzZW50IHRv 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p1sm6095307pfo.143.2021.11.04.13.02.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 13:02:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 09:02:31 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 20:02:43 -0000 On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say =E2=80=9C= [The IESG] also > administers IETF logistics, including operation of the Internet-Dra= ft > document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D >=20 > However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web pages a= s part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D. >=20 > This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and when th= e old ietf.org page was still up. From the RFC it seems, however, quite c= leat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in scope for=20 the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side where au= thority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. informa= tion about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but the implic= ation is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web site, and controls = the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC tools and web site. But as=20 I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that the LLC "is expe= cted to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far as rules go, I belie= ve that's all we've got. It's enough, but it does seem that our draft sho= uld empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We can't change RFC = 8711, because we're not the IETF. Brian >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> >> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with t= he the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is wi= th the IESG which a board of community members selected by community memb= er. >> >> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that language. >> >> Eliot >> >> >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 4 14:27:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1453A0B90 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLL556QT7wJ5 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf29.google.com (mail-qv1-xf29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 331F93A0BF7 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf29.google.com with SMTP id s9so6166268qvk.12 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=MvUrWvbw4H4YtNWcyrj4IVkKH2otteMm5s0q6LfZFfw=; b=0Usu9s8HWxyHT94jQxnOY80LY4FYAFa+6u7WdsXLKCsS1qpIS2/TAQP2vr3W2uKLzW XteBN0Hl2sjcXJItBVE+30okmBkuk5GUJQiwaAjThLFvTwfvEfdKND35VUJVtckxUDzL SrArGGy+qT/AtwUJolda6xRigjKB6BTZFInhCB+hz3Ry+VR1OcaS6U3/7EaZcsn3FHMP y8UwPAz0BsAYgiic04jlW879DwDXREMLEPlNcROcQw5ADhjxGx3Sb9SUVlVJNLFKJ0G3 ssVwRMsqCk/CYGdbevil1Pw8eqAP2xUONjMf5kEt3CtFWQsppBPQjQoZR2/9NEehGZJM wtZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=MvUrWvbw4H4YtNWcyrj4IVkKH2otteMm5s0q6LfZFfw=; b=xgeb8mSABDS2GO8CAQKXAmNhDz3NrLPQMyI6+6ibRsoTjmf9zMX2rbQrj5UfETKLru by/5ZlH/3O4pqiulKBSUE8/OzcMywq6HpLepY16LAZhIeftDvnFphseacIm52xrRSqvT 2MvoeNdTnpIOiUm3AwyKYZTZEY8bnceN5KSiux54XMEp++vZ0aR0jQ2pbF4cLCnDE00K +4tM3KWPz7LnidRpt1SWo5T8xnLrfH1aja0u3zrv9BryxbqYnptrgspRwO7dxVC32LCh QmeQBuEEjBw3XKYCWZOlZB0S3XWChNYf2tovx7PshvHUagFNO8jzZjAGPiSaHHoVzany nd0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RvWQPKqIdu4oHN7oigAFgxDUWvef4xbIhFpOsjIGfc1RWRHnX zrdXLkAjeeaC5nLIEkRztcE9mGQwOCUxIw7aJ80= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwa4T5MV6PSWYRbQgwYDXQVwOCYsCwvtL3KQSbWot7VgSU/JD0irbiCeGUfmY420CHy5YMq5g== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f9cc:: with SMTP id j12mr9172854qvo.2.1636061210700; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d18sm4860965qtb.70.2021.11.04.14.26.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------X6ZAbo3V1XoOxBdSwChxHWSB" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:26:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 21:27:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------X6ZAbo3V1XoOxBdSwChxHWSB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/22/2021 4:13 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > This begins the two week last call on > draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through > Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  > We will address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot > (and of course on list). > > Brian and Eliot > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > Hi - I've got some specific comments and changes for the -05 document which I'll include below.  I still owe text for the "heritage" section and that's taking longer.   I apologize for the delay, but life got in my way. Overall, this generally reads well and reflects my understanding of where we are in the discussions. This is going to use a combo of the PDF page numbers and the section number so bear with me: Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition.   This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third para with: "This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals." Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.  Insert "Editorial" before "Series". Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/ Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is a run on. Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community". Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, " Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/ Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it. Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB. DISCUSS. Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence = "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS. Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some language is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes." Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract". Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/ Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.  Suggest  inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence.  Referencing the current contract may also be useful here. Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "However, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."    Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed. Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal. Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. Mike --------------X6ZAbo3V1XoOxBdSwChxHWSB Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 10/22/2021 4:13 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Dear Colleagues,

This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]  This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021.  Please send your comments to this mailing list.  We will address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list).

Brian and Eliot

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model



Hi - I've got some specific comments and changes for the -05 document which I'll include below.  I still owe text for the "heritage" section and that's taking longer.   I apologize for the delay, but life got in my way.

Overall, this generally reads well and reflects my understanding of where we are in the discussions.

This is going to use a combo of the PDF page numbers and the section number so bear with me:

Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition.   This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third para with:

"This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals."

Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.  Insert "Editorial" before "Series".

Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/

Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is a run on.

Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community".

Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, "

Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/

Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it.

Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS.

Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence = "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS.

Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some language is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes."

Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract".

Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/

Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.  Suggest  inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence.  Referencing the current contract may also be useful here.

Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "However, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."    Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed.

Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal.

Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. 

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.


Mike




--------------X6ZAbo3V1XoOxBdSwChxHWSB-- From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:04:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5728C3A0C63 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:04:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISxEu8sQ9KIV for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A2B53A0C5F for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id bi29so7147751qkb.5 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:04:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SKApxZmbVzcDGw0a2ncArKqdJfTj0ww9uoa+LyBj0no=; b=uNMwI3NudGpmrPrMStbyS4bki2OQYgFfqwqJEPwWALvaEK01EndolnEJz7YwzboQSs /i/gH5lZBeaLosViDtDWsTSVQ/buMUCvRcEYdcaBknO5dJOjKQexyJpZ14Xw8vi3rB6o rO2vKc4TgEFEotdOANE1G62HiJWukTriXBJdAM3LTmhJ4Vz/LnPtp4BGvh5TfYWd6wZ1 8UMqoA+wpWqOK5PfBL1PV10lQcUxzPBJjgYicK5YlnSD2x7EBuFHP37YxyQQLxUy3tyJ 0DSPWHPRaxrVJDpvxZ4WZ5hPOdf7Cv/Gpb+oGFqNWRFplxpK/UubQ+pXDDU9QBcERX/Q psRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SKApxZmbVzcDGw0a2ncArKqdJfTj0ww9uoa+LyBj0no=; b=LYrxr9Zxg6OnSvgy69Zfz5ZVDJ5nV55zUf27M0wVqov/X+xcIeD3t9wxl4pZXMAnUM Es2EPzqE5kCZblUFAlqBHjp3C8W4Hoq2A2hl6XBhZwEjJXyt/9p8GBm1JlB6uR5fvbIU jPJzuCPx3U29P2AXiLyn0jsXuGU16/svEfkMQCgzU0R5xMLi8vVrnLNY622kRd8yRwga AGL0pqvQtVtSCToaLhgbf4MAJlILa6sBPyft/5MVDGEn8EpovHgJM/J89G8hcgnMRxVG dXfgvAkmFxY4pKCt83sr1qilbJmMD4EI5vJEKdoKnyibCyphY4CedlxsyfkGRZpW8YTd 9ukQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531l31VaOef/BVIjHGL0iLYxN8bD5WQ7MFMqKnL/fZfAvjZfWxQZ CrLzpetR0eeIPMu1IJOccMI4Ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFZzV9CI0TDuips/wrzZrmBkFLCQj3IgpO//+um5PSpA8i2GuxQuq42M0/MaB8UcAYLNI7RQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:3705:: with SMTP id de5mr7591504qkb.41.1636063451454; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c4sm4506745qkf.122.2021.11.04.15.04.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8479464b-0c0c-7691-e5bb-8d040a6c7583@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:04:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , EKR References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie> <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:04:21 -0000 On 10/28/2021 3:16 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Mike, everyone, > > First, a point of clarification.  I don't have a strong position. I > may not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to > fix the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't. > > Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that > fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutable > might be changed.  There may be other aspects.  But I don't think we > get through this without either dropping the word heritage or > significantly elaborating it.  I think it may not be necessary to use > the word.  See below. > > Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I > don't see how we don't expose the tension at all.  But there is a > difference between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I > don't think we do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former > (EKR, you can and should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see > below), and I have very little confidence that we will find any > consensus on the latter. > > With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1: > >>    Because policy issues can be difficult and contentious, RSWG >>    participants and RSAB members are strongly encouraged to work >>    together in a spirit of good faith and mutual understanding to >>    achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).  In particular, RSWG members >>    are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and RSAB members are >>    encouraged to clearly express their concerns early in the process and >>    to be responsive to the community.  All parties are encouraged to >>    respect the value of each stream and the long-term health and >>    viability of the RFC Series. > > Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend: > >>  All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each stream and >> the long-term health and >>  viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for both the >> factors that have led to the series'  wide acceptance, and those that >> require it to evolve to see to its continued success. > > Obviously those factors will be a matter of, perhaps intense, debate.  > Our rough consensus process is designed to allow for that tension to > play out; but it requires a modicum of trust, that people will act in > good faith toward one another.  You have all generally done an > exemplary job of that here.  I hope that spirit would carry forward > into the RSWG. > > Eliot > Eliot, et al - What I'm looking at is stealing and expanding text from sections 2.2 and 2.3 of Bob Braden's/ISI's last report for the RFC Editor contract (sections titled "Editorial Policy" and "Quality of Documents").  I think "principles" is actually the right word vs heritage, but we have a heritage of conforming to those principles :-) to the notable success of the series.  Ignoring those principles would probably be a Bad Thing (tm). Basically, identifying what's been critical for the success of the series:  readability, stability, allowances for author individuality, et al and placing guardrails (metarules) to make sure that changes proposed by the RSWG and approved by the RSAB respect such principles seems to me to be just good engineering. I think that's more than a few sentences, but not more than 3-4 paragraphs in a section probably titled "Principles for RSWG and RSAB policy formation" The text you cite up above is basically motherhood telling people to be nice to each other, but doesn't really give them any guidance on how to measure "the good of the series" in any meaningful manner or against any useful measuring stick. I apologize again for the delays.   Mike From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:09:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5376E3A0C6E for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:09:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MgueKI2DpmAX for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A0A33A0C6D for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id n15so7120440qkp.12 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bp5oMY4WT2a+Yho893POuuNLGQsWyequH0q48KCx0zY=; b=BMON5RWK+qjVCHHIN2U5ZG/0syBKXSupw3SQqNHDosOoo3cgyi1FJRGZjYuXqxRCwG fXOj+rr0cU1pA4fc6d/Fj0CscYfGX8X+R+pOP7HaJ0b8eFU7zMZze1FhNFlPrQI7yeYi u8OGnTcEjVHu82JGE2iaSN4bEEduVPT8vaJTxPcKMg5OjB6MrgLclQidTZCS51khK8o0 d2C7ynHEN3FzhhqUxZdMJJWhz0M8XtpVJMFmnVEQCD03yV3a9VxW4mOSvwqCDYkXbQXw lV3OaCnXXcxdCeB67BAyhLjXCwdyimmf1nzCvNFjpaIsFLvU2wotbqx682z0Jd7kjvT4 nNzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bp5oMY4WT2a+Yho893POuuNLGQsWyequH0q48KCx0zY=; b=lQu8sb0zmDQFGNscKYaTxC6RSgdfQb97SLkUiFO3hFhmHJP152c/MFq8S5H2Bj5qwr AqyPS6l7WJ4Xus6DCawJZHXVsWyB7ezwjwQCWTwOEbAmITtPGSD9LUmpvyInVKHGJqgX GRh351JCg4qYs4IMGZti+Cm4n331pJ7xtzrG+QC2PHaaxVAL+kMXCiRrD7xW97j7ifdL 9Fztk1+nYDJMZfw0gN4lh/zc1iwtwBs5vDTZ5Wr3/wsuIdytOa43V99CQhbCA0nXDp5X CJjAvQJEdy8xbCpwpi6GMV0UuHJ7g0c3/rzjbuKd1rRsG1lcNqqE81z6WCLQuvfp7yxy LjxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533F6QlFsEjb+ui68p/j2JkNHreRe0gb38nFUoYZTqbxirQLsA8D 4/5eZmJU1uAvWXCn+7p101Ih8YJFManltnh33Do= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMWDRRNRdCCZAwumkFux/9K2IRptU9LB9ypqduKc9P5ew7IgC+wBZ0PoVntJuPc6YaESjxEg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:88c2:: with SMTP id k185mr43936245qkd.227.1636063769557; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm4917084qty.42.2021.11.04.15.09.28 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:09:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:09:35 -0000 On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. > Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't > change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of > those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC > and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, > unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is > definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism > other than to the LLC itself. The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is acting on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about.  Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and responsibilities.  "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer is. Mike From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:25:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897BC3A0CFD for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5FOrstKZH4gb for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 410643A0CFB for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id g13so5179740qtk.12 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ztw5qAZhihIgdX6gpXNKel4Vfx3bipfEf6727Cqlics=; b=Gzd070xAVNKVvr9tTKXLeyeZudhjdAkotbbGhUzEK1p8f7eKYwclav69AY7jikMMim SiWKs+81QsFRY30e9y244bgX0xbQ2C3xAvHdOTNKJ3tCY0eIhJmKLQ8rj2h39iBAsUyh XpF/CAQoSVwuVHfl74/g+wBp+a9V0KNISZVgjBuS9m8eiZIz3fi2V1qoeKfgUwnvjwfI ZNB8Qxtddr8IiZnNMtPg7SCgIdRAbJK5G+ZoMXdU8ffu8QOWm1s0zhikfA9gGTySY7ZJ t4mBNey46gY5m79g2/sMTlWMLMe3oHfIuYz+VTSyOKlS6Lmewq3dYa9l6Zwv6cHhGPsh 4XLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ztw5qAZhihIgdX6gpXNKel4Vfx3bipfEf6727Cqlics=; b=Qvo45TcbZU60S2TNj/Z0p9jwCfvyCESPkVpgXKtK0oQ8RdbpWxPuVdVX1/pS0JGjPd MF6aWidBa8tUBakx0Iv0aKVtcMxhM1CpStetq5tT6lmgqqzCuEJZBmBQLwkTKDb93453 +Hy1H9TV6WDBioCrNynLLcknt7q/HIRSCiOjWPW24iNtdC0sEyHB5M9+ykVUC/YFbz1V /NhbRVbDBnAv0ecipdgbn44HyUxbOjEXI/iadl6MGVh8eKj4RCBf8GrAJuTK+8Z54ptA /QVwyv215Cv6h5BMfpGANYezIaba+3NaObNT5j6owvAqA0KIdrj7OqYYN13jptmIbwzw aCQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533aQPoEAJcQPRDszJf7GNIKaYNWgoQF6468V4lkZvlqGaX13jtz MphTwKFuSY101lS+rz85aPMkM9TO8UKrJo739q4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzz4Z9RdQYz0aqCwXRhajODdPdHNPi+iUpnSWOtr5w8xMfiuqSDsnEOLlwhAgtHyHura583fA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5916:: with SMTP id 22mr30799813qty.288.1636064699104; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m20sm4662764qkp.57.2021.11.04.15.24.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:24:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie> <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie> <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org> <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:25:06 -0000 On 10/30/2021 10:09 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Hello Christian, others, > > Thanks for mentioning the elephant in the room (changing the way RFCs > get 'updated'). > > This is indeed a problem that may be discussed very actively in the > future RSWG and RSAG. But please note that this cannot happen > independently of the streams. It's the streams that have the authority > on the content of their RFC. > > Let's assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of integrating > errata into published RFCs. If any stream refused, that stream's > errata would just not participate in this feature. > > The dependency is much clearer for more aggressive proposals. Let's > assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of publishing RFCs as > 'living standards'. It's very clear that if any stream didn't want > that, they just wouldn't use this feature. > > I hope that also makes it clear that in particular for more aggressive > proposals, the initiative really has to come from the streams, or more > correctly, from the bodies behind these streams. Otherwise, any work > is bound to be dead on arrival. Overall, it will probably take quite > some time and a lot of coordination. > > That leads me to the conclusion that whatever statement about heritage > we make or do not make, we should be fine, because there isn't too > much of a risk of some subgroup in the RSWG to dominate the direction. > > Regards,   Martin. > > > > On 2021-10-28 08:58, Christian Huitema wrote: >> On 10/27/2021 3:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> >>> It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of >>> the RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is >>> impossible to pin down as a general statement and is best addressed >>> during a discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the >>> text is very carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is >>> necessary to avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt >>> instrument that I would expect it to be regularly invoked >>> inappropriately and to create friction because those invoking it >>> would think they have policy on their side. >> >> >> I don't think of that in terms of heritage so much as principles. I >> think we have broad agreement about most principles, such as making >> access to the discussion open and free. We also mostly have broad >> agreement on preserving continuity of the look and feel of the >> series, even if after tortuous debate we finally got  the format to >> evolve and allow such things as international characters or vector >> graphics. The only principle that I see regularly contested is the >> idea that once published, RFC cannot be changed. >> >> I hear the arguments on both sides. On one side, RFC are archived >> documents, and we don't get to rewrite the past ever, so yes, once a >> document is stamped with a number, it is cast in stone. On the other >> side, network protocol specifications need to evolve frequently, and >> if they evolve developers ought to have a simple mean to access the >> latest version of protocol XXX. There is a big tension there, because >> if the protocol is known as RFC NNNN, then it cannot change. If it is >> known as protocol XXX it can change but then the RFC number becomes >> irrelevant. Arguably we have a tension between keeping the series >> relevant and maintaining a core principle. >> >> Resolving such tensions is exactly what the RSWG should do. I don't >> think that we should try to preempt the debate by making statements >> about heritage. That leads me to agree with Eric and Elliot. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> > Martin/Christian et al - Documents have one tag that never changes - the RFC number.  They also have other tags that can be added and deleted - STD springs to mind.    The problem cited above is mostly not a problem that needs to be solved in the RFC system, but in the way STDs  (and maybe other sub-series) are described to the outside community. We use RFC on everything because it's well known, but that's a marketing issue.  If you want to fix this, then start marketing the STD series in a way that makes clear that the RFC number is subordinate (for this purpose) to the STD number.  Also, maybe adopt a reference number format that's bound in time such as other standards organizations use.   E.g. refer to IETF-STD-3-1989-03 instead of RFC 1122, RFC1123.   The IETF/IESG is responsible for the mappings from those documents to stable references maintained by the RFC editor system - e.g. DOI's.   Say you have an errata published for RFC1122 this month - IETF-STD-3a-2021-11 with mappings to the revised RFC1122 and the original RFC1123. For the RFC series, the main change here is to allow for quick publication of errata changes - but that's more a process change than a real change to the RFC series. So - Market the STD numbers.  Pay someone who has a clue to do the marketing for us.   Takes a few years, but you'll eventually get to where you want to be. Later, Mike From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:39:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194D33A0D55 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9VFmZaMuULql for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97F703A0D52 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id f8so9650090plo.12 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E0ZyWutn+W9PFSxl9IHq2dnVDjxKB/Z20yiSGotvQEw=; b=GBZyhxxmggBWhE0BgiUSEj86ycftEvqzXirSVXVP4W/u5/0JnwJOr+fVvFGg6pltJt LR2sRr310ry0XzC2RG6HGa66GhhO5QyYrWp+LhsBtCaxZ7RADvjc2xoKTrV9s4nCdwfN QXJgEZnHwATdxW/APKVrD7I1A5WMTRW6sUYpUZ/fFWiSoKevj2xAOpKLYkRcw59IRSaW Fj/+jG3R4Ou2QDhdZR3LGyB1crVe4ko7k1F2FZ2BqlvPpk1g8uW4NtyowKk5ez72tqBk OUp0cfsTf9UVcbUuec1c//SQ5GVZbQfOu00LYxA/8TT1630oaDvBl9FAWfO1PpDKar58 phpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=E0ZyWutn+W9PFSxl9IHq2dnVDjxKB/Z20yiSGotvQEw=; b=IX9YPyQ/kB6+IxH+IiNXg0E1sFJV9YhgXuGuymwUWxnwRwdmdcWxIq3xQ98oGCc8KL a/QY8IIDzFy1GwiYqi7RemizOKimikVBZdfKF0IAll4blIX59/HsBBgMOQAxLjXfvjy7 p1Z0DLNnT3F6Xj/4xslUWhqgP/LHq7F/Hk/pZ9yiJOA8lar3d+qJR2HPPok0sn6JHnlO OuoxEC8WKOqJWImP0A+sMllSpQ9FZg6+JrByLwtbeMoKXx6ShhWugCWFy9nonjh7ESLM w3tmBWLwyaBumvBpq2JCIVlIEQm5dJb0ft67NN0+AEQ0kVjm5bK28PVqrTjSPqx8Fl43 2wpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5327uHITZ74i0E+T0kK/JMUmbIfAPyFj94l5irEFU8+NAmxB51qi 7H/nBsZ6TfzdOKVvbvfpF6E2JCxeH6gTmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCd1wBF9legfedfTfzGMAdO9aSDxRrnmQH3C5KX2hVpITsyWKwHnms2XEJ+aLqv2g92G286A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6283:: with SMTP id d3mr25579680pjj.64.1636065572569; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm5901689pfp.14.2021.11.04.15.39.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:39:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:39:27 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:39:38 -0000 On 05-Nov-21 11:09, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >> other than to the LLC itself. >=20 > The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is actin= g > on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. > Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and > responsibilities.=C2=A0 "acting on behalf" explains who the real custom= er is. True, but again quoting RFC 8711: "Responsiveness to the community. The IETF LLC is expected to act consist= ently with the documented consensus of the IETF community, to be responsi= ve to the community's needs, and to adapt its decisions in response to co= nsensus-based community feedback." The tricky issue is that this phrasing is expressly limited to the "IETF community". I don't have an easy remedy for that limitation. I also= don't want to leave a gap where some future ED can say "show me where it says I have to listen to the RFC community." I find myself wondering whether we need to ask the IETF to produce a very short update to RFC 8711. Alternatively, a decision by the LLC Board= to explicitly include this expectation in the LLC's remit would work. Brian >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:51:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAAA33A0D72 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISmn_uUO87gh for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CF7D3A0D71 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468554B0D4B6; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zv2AlI3spgMH; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E9FF4B0B414; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:51:19 +1300 Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <16A7A6AE-B96A-40A4-AC07-F3A2F508BDBB@ietf.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:51:33 -0000 > On 5/11/2021, at 11:39 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Nov-21 11:09, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >>> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >>> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >>> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >>> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >>> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >>> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >>> other than to the LLC itself. >> The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is = acting >> on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. >> Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and >> responsibilities. "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer = is. >=20 > True, but again quoting RFC 8711: >=20 > "Responsiveness to the community. The IETF LLC is expected to act = consistently with the documented consensus of the IETF community, to be = responsive to the community's needs, and to adapt its decisions in = response to consensus-based community feedback." >=20 > The tricky issue is that this phrasing is expressly limited to the > "IETF community". I don't have an easy remedy for that limitation. I = also > don't want to leave a gap where some future ED can say "show me where = it > says I have to listen to the RFC community." >=20 > I find myself wondering whether we need to ask the IETF to produce a > very short update to RFC 8711. Alternatively, a decision by the LLC = Board > to explicitly include this expectation in the LLC's remit would work. I struggle to imagine any possible situation where someone could claim = "yes the RFC community want that but the IETF community doesn=E2=80=99t". Jay >=20 > Brian >=20 >=20 >> Mike >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Nov 4 15:58:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7AA3A0061 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3N-GV5y9EMh9 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E30123A0062 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id d21so5651430qtw.11 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lIIgOjE23czEhmhnluGwRAb7INObJdt/hWtmx45Pp4E=; b=WFH18s1+5ebkGaGPC4QmSLGFpzW0mZS9lUt1kBScKGQqHk0xjmvtvs0B67jvlb81Ro 7RtvGB6daDLnYuQaUwgBgdYLhO21dl9tTpXg3dQvpSTCaxOdeiyLY1Gd4bPSguJcOoHY jwgAPrjX2vPUdQMxVOt68PQGNa8lvWqHhbwoPvA0sqvja8m1hMIfdOpG4644qwXiHimb lunSVxFX930PeQqgsB0zsNHDKDPK2Ivchz3/uKbrI3viry8Tvy36OBgVA4MeqWSFaiLh XHrIGrtCWWHHRxnmmZh8dxlAkIxHUahbRHncsnwsZOs8YUwfbC2OCzLvTWRrK0lb6G0V N4+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lIIgOjE23czEhmhnluGwRAb7INObJdt/hWtmx45Pp4E=; b=HPe0U3reHyFerwT21GReFwKvIxkTu77KJ1Ru5RBu5wWdtW8XpJmtOfGxnPV2RMo0i6 EK7rXDjrAdlQVxOWIoXRHko2Y5js54bglWJBAVcCBLwH5K26sCBpuMSyUGd75RKzvtUz rPmDU43kL6WWCAU780fp5fqqioJ82UlTov6LEVygsvDdAUtVxO9jqv6cYL/FcfdiVU/I fOYoT80n9Or6sQ9qoRidntxmT6963sXtR1+cCODYtARmfcgQ+SHbJNZ+79uIA3qjcJig Q8lmq5L3dQHzlZ1CmlFAtMeXfBpg25YdyCfFx9/5xNLbBxIPeh+Lyv+1d/PZZCvjvfL8 Jsxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530zZLYlNXVoFUAOikSck1ZwzjOrj/mQq75lHU2COYfHBBXxeDqq 1O7sPC9D4soEzJowo6XsX9yNnpv6ECS6WcoYkBc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzFXa9TbClE11Yl6muytUpiuaI++5xqi0zRXcYBMQHli2ycSslcG2QnhOOGxTuXoYzXIuSBbw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7fd5:: with SMTP id b21mr58966552qtk.101.1636066687399; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11sm209838qtk.62.2021.11.04.15.58.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0d9820bf-92b0-c51a-caff-cf47a9a3d7c0@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:58:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:58:14 -0000 On 11/4/2021 6:39 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05-Nov-21 11:09, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >>> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >>> change the reality.  We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >>> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >>> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >>> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >>> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >>> other than to the LLC itself. >> >> The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is acting >> on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. >> Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and >> responsibilities.  "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer is. > > True, but again quoting RFC 8711: > > "Responsiveness to the community. The IETF LLC is expected to act > consistently with the documented consensus of the IETF community, to > be responsive to the community's needs, and to adapt its decisions in > response to consensus-based community feedback." > > The tricky issue is that this phrasing is expressly limited to the > "IETF community". I don't have an easy remedy for that limitation. I also > don't want to leave a gap where some future ED can say "show me where it > says I have to listen to the RFC community." Not a problem.  If this happens, the appropriate place to address it is with the ED's employer - the LLC board. > > I find myself wondering whether we need to ask the IETF to produce a > very short update to RFC 8711. Alternatively, a decision by the LLC Board > to explicitly include this expectation in the LLC's remit would work. Except that has exactly the same legal impact as bringing a specific issue to the board - e.g. none.  If the LLC board is going to ignore the complaint in the first place, knowing that this specific behavior was considered bad from before the creation of this document, why would writing/modifying a second document have any visible affect? If you want actual enforceable behavior, write something into the LLC agreement or articles of incorporation that refers to RFC8711.  I doubt we need that. Mike > >    Brian > > >> >> Mike >> >> > From nobody Thu Nov 4 16:01:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E5D3A04BB for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5s_tCFrcqD6 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96C623A046A for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id p17so6150664qkj.0 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:01:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YCrf/EAhsmzJ9iFVQKzgvsv2nudisqiP/LN6tWlbaQw=; b=cv4wDLwSULpFjyNbpSzlx1JDoJGlHq2Q8ljzoUv6AKxNKBVyB3svpRbj+W/4DRFE88 CUC/x/Sr3H0EGibw7GZ1GqsAIxc/7PU+5pQImAoaIpf1RO/VC/VQDPPpL3UQrNbpK5U4 Tzd9LPbT6faXgtV2cOG30cQYa8Pr/bCivx/uh7sLVttp6POHOeHTUvOG2KUntctYBS0o HwjZEsCxcMayLt1Ds97Qtrh3Is5FD5t3QMCf/KO+jxlJzcBAjc201V7YsgqC4g14DZK8 slz2U1jzDbJIQhjvcO64q6cCe5QphtPU+/1ZoK5Nr4W/KIAIi8MPFolgJIEWfNnqnu9T AtAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YCrf/EAhsmzJ9iFVQKzgvsv2nudisqiP/LN6tWlbaQw=; b=7Zg0+6KBNEBREoEh0GqgD6gKidbJZwuVJG/58ftXN/9cxzU/Q4z7rKST+t6FxGm1uQ V/F0mG9UML98YQNRdKZzOmjvLlwwnBLKW5YRMWJr4aj9uvqHiKYb46LSTUDOkj4tzgb4 pi4JIS+HHTNojHE0G59Unu8daamfeDZQM5Han0QvBT0RP1+9tXi8KNX47T5PyeaeMIG9 JEsKpMxPKJjMBD5ZCGnN3E+z3K9UE0a13YxOZ4zqJ2+q/TSFt+OMSpZY8k13ZiAH4gZ7 2MqMNAdLDdeNTXR0yDd/RaJDKrbXVt356MP5XGn0TlOLryaGEwyUX6dvfI7nlXwXPKZV FSBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531XwDng++bUnObw3kMnpxJ+vOR++uphI6WRGwpXBzbQmSZ7D5bL s8BJ/7/8OEAcakKNBkrBIGO77g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz19M1IUYb+Yl8nQrlGi9q+3fLFfLcugfrS64ULXWRJX7UJr1RRRKozndz7eAM4klWR/eUoHw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4250:: with SMTP id w16mr43147346qko.485.1636066864046; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o5sm4690572qtg.24.2021.11.04.16.01.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:01:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> <16A7A6AE-B96A-40A4-AC07-F3A2F508BDBB@ietf.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <16A7A6AE-B96A-40A4-AC07-F3A2F508BDBB@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:01:12 -0000 On 11/4/2021 6:51 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > >> On 5/11/2021, at 11:39 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 05-Nov-21 11:09, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>>> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >>>> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >>>> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >>>> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >>>> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >>>> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >>>> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >>>> other than to the LLC itself. >>> The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is acting >>> on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. >>> Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and >>> responsibilities. "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer is. >> True, but again quoting RFC 8711: >> >> "Responsiveness to the community. The IETF LLC is expected to act consistently with the documented consensus of the IETF community, to be responsive to the community's needs, and to adapt its decisions in response to consensus-based community feedback." >> >> The tricky issue is that this phrasing is expressly limited to the >> "IETF community". I don't have an easy remedy for that limitation. I also >> don't want to leave a gap where some future ED can say "show me where it >> says I have to listen to the RFC community." >> >> I find myself wondering whether we need to ask the IETF to produce a >> very short update to RFC 8711. Alternatively, a decision by the LLC Board >> to explicitly include this expectation in the LLC's remit would work. > I struggle to imagine any possible situation where someone could claim "yes the RFC community want that but the IETF community doesn’t". > > Jay I expect if we ever get to that case, we'll need to create a separate LLC under the ISOC specifically for the purpose of housing the RFC editor function. Later, Mike > >> Brian >> >> >>> Mike >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 4 18:33:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333E33A07D7 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wr3yWaw1s5U2 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C1AE3A05D0 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id fv9-20020a17090b0e8900b001a6a5ab1392so2275457pjb.1 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 18:33:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tc5pJFo2BUT65Zo4YhS3m3bxQwwk4Ea3kKx6RvujsEE=; b=F/dN2x9lICf7hn5J5FMrDNCJwSGHcCwHrljdg7N/c+VEYBdYnbDZiH5nnkttJOvEgq GwiBb+ADaimzq+HUhErrOQvFKua6u9l3Kn7y//FwcZvQXy4e9iPXUFR1+Pl1/ww528ZN CtDVTRBeEjOiOEQ42bnzMlwn9B2WPi43R/mbO9p9CcsdqjxuJrawpqT1LH0bugA7ix3v yUX1TrCuAHXk5/LCpYAUxPAN7KN4ZUon2qkY7dUa7VBTVM6CQirxS0mkI/KtmKTEBKUz 2TSKn1WZshGi2PIE9gBjzrvxiodZls+D+blKunMla9rT+lXx8jBzFRiQ0WqCR59ArSH8 +s3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tc5pJFo2BUT65Zo4YhS3m3bxQwwk4Ea3kKx6RvujsEE=; b=inbjAnStfv03IB2zfT+erfb0ERZdp2QQlhUbJ9FFEfR3S0Ne3FJ5GriOWsGef23EEe u4JyWZqC7+OzIiWmJp1xtOpZQj7/7gKa3N03MZXYmbWHQ3u1ZW8OWwwGM4A0kaIufM7Y iaHn6DWy1EPfQsweFiYJkeybCTrMfUUCuXAizVYjmlY33gIazYthxkEavQvPtu7HCskT BVQQG2yJGItxslcm+ZZD2DkN1OW5P872tPo7lxzZdP/8qsIXQeXsS+0DSjB8eekkko3V 23NsN1r9hgw1+uN6ZF6QZ8GlAsONyawKmSFmQRe/nhySbAyF4kMX9NhGV2+v4kof6aFQ cmhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532BLggaQS19lInEKiJY1IpPc6qgub1Ca63xlg0tQrAYo/K2NNAF Hmw1Mhk/2LuDdKyrzsPjbsoiChgydvIpwQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwmnWIHBSfo8fnGVCZXw+1QSQzvBeL7qReTCyXnrYxdArQwo6HD5Xv8LWqnWowOMyRlDVy/9w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4598:: with SMTP id v24mr26183785pjg.5.1636076029891; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 18:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r6sm4405972pjg.21.2021.11.04.18.33.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 18:33:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> <16A7A6AE-B96A-40A4-AC07-F3A2F508BDBB@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:33:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16A7A6AE-B96A-40A4-AC07-F3A2F508BDBB@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 01:33:54 -0000 On 05-Nov-21 11:51, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 5/11/2021, at 11:39 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 05-Nov-21 11:09, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>>> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >>>> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >>>> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >>>> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >>>> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >>>> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >>>> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >>>> other than to the LLC itself. >>> The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is act= ing >>> on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. >>> Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and= >>> responsibilities. "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer = is. >> >> True, but again quoting RFC 8711: >> >> "Responsiveness to the community. The IETF LLC is expected to act cons= istently with the documented consensus of the IETF community, to be respo= nsive to the community's needs, and to adapt its decisions in response to=20 consensus-based community feedback." >> >> The tricky issue is that this phrasing is expressly limited to the >> "IETF community". I don't have an easy remedy for that limitation. I a= lso >> don't want to leave a gap where some future ED can say "show me where = it >> says I have to listen to the RFC community." >> >> I find myself wondering whether we need to ask the IETF to produce a >> very short update to RFC 8711. Alternatively, a decision by the LLC Bo= ard >> to explicitly include this expectation in the LLC's remit would work. >=20 > I struggle to imagine any possible situation where someone could claim = "yes the RFC community want that but the IETF community doesn=E2=80=99t".= So do I, but people have raised the issue of where authority lies. Personally, I already said I'm OK with the -05 draft. 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Thu, 4 Nov 2021 22:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:49:02 +1100 Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 02:49:14 -0000 Hi Eliot, > On 5 Nov 2021, at 3:27 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Jay and Mark, >=20 > Here is what the Section 3 chapeau currently reads: >=20 >> Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the open = through proposals that are generated by and discussed within the RFC = Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC Series Approval = Board (RSAB). >=20 >> Policies under the purview of the RSWG and RSAB might include but are = not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication = and dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of the RFC Series. >=20 > As I read it, this permits the RSWG and RSAB to publish the sort of = RFC you are suggesting to be written. Such an RFC could state both = transparency and coordination requirements, as well as operational = expectations. As you wrote, such an RFC would cover all much of what = you described. >=20 > Mark, again as I read the above text, it does not specifically address = your concerns, but provides you an avenue to get your concerns addressed = once the RSWG is created. Do you read it the same way, and do you (and = others) believe that is sufficient for us to proceed with this document? I have two concerns at this point: 1) While that's a reasonable reading of the above, some have strongly = pushed back on this area as 'out of scope.' If they were pushing back on = including some of the detailed work that Jay so helpfully categorised as = being homed in the RPC and LLC, that's understandable. However, if = there's pushback on any discussion of this area *at all* in the RSWG, = I'd be concerned that the scope of the WG was being used to limit = community oversight and input.=20 2) The path you outline could result in the RSWG considering publishing = an RFC that creates new bodies or new communication channels to pursue = these topics. Execution of those functions could involve the RSWG in = some capacity -- whether in an oversight role or in direct consultation = or decision making -- without the publication of an RFC for each = decision. Therefore, I'd expect that the RSWG would be able to modify = its operation (subject to RSAB oversight) to accommodate that, and any = argument that doing so were out of scope would be toothless. Is that the = clearly case? Cheers,=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 4 20:19:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459563A0AB0 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMlnpKS89SO1 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B283A0AAF for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hlm29521sz1ntyl; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636082353; bh=4vi17GD9z4Ay4Fw67NeGpIHZd7BS1hym2mHGKMip2Lk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=IeFe/+v8sMMCxMlWjE9dLktfT5+VLQb6MlZFw8wPOmsGfCMnyNy4RpdALy0kdV9dF dI9Y6wx7ht2a/kKo8KCyyXoKat9lgG4N91L1nQrViIaRcu2khKXGlDFll9XcdmjynS t6H9TZaJ1UepZLzz/bN+b3NpJqj1FyBVsYXz8cEs= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hlm2916rwz1nt5Q; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 23:19:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 03:19:18 -0000 To address your quesitons directly... No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled compromise. I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we have agreed to assign to the RSWG. I do not think that includes management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC Editor web site. Yours, Joel On 11/4/2021 10:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Eliot, > >> On 5 Nov 2021, at 3:27 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Hi Jay and Mark, >> >> Here is what the Section 3 chapeau currently reads: >> >>> Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the open through proposals that are generated by and discussed within the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB). >> >>> Policies under the purview of the RSWG and RSAB might include but are not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of the RFC Series. >> >> As I read it, this permits the RSWG and RSAB to publish the sort of RFC you are suggesting to be written. Such an RFC could state both transparency and coordination requirements, as well as operational expectations. As you wrote, such an RFC would cover all much of what you described. >> >> Mark, again as I read the above text, it does not specifically address your concerns, but provides you an avenue to get your concerns addressed once the RSWG is created. Do you read it the same way, and do you (and others) believe that is sufficient for us to proceed with this document? > > I have two concerns at this point: > > 1) While that's a reasonable reading of the above, some have strongly pushed back on this area as 'out of scope.' If they were pushing back on including some of the detailed work that Jay so helpfully categorised as being homed in the RPC and LLC, that's understandable. However, if there's pushback on any discussion of this area *at all* in the RSWG, I'd be concerned that the scope of the WG was being used to limit community oversight and input. > > 2) The path you outline could result in the RSWG considering publishing an RFC that creates new bodies or new communication channels to pursue these topics. Execution of those functions could involve the RSWG in some capacity -- whether in an oversight role or in direct consultation or decision making -- without the publication of an RFC for each decision. Therefore, I'd expect that the RSWG would be able to modify its operation (subject to RSAB oversight) to accommodate that, and any argument that doing so were out of scope would be toothless. Is that the clearly case? > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Thu Nov 4 20:28:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3ED03A0B2E for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ho5Qs_6VVkqx for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 173EE3A0AE2 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 20:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id v4so6122471qtw.8 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 20:28:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X5ZHccmXzaU9+ZBQw183CjkfcEETMArdV+yIeUvI08M=; b=l8aAdcqXPB9QFHtCO7NASnntPS4Rb2ZH7b3xOWVk87aawD3JupdQbUP+LBiE3E1FpR Ewg4SyNkFRp5k7S8+5jDC7Wd2dO6l5uXjULPStsCuSITB2Rugj7nYzZaPzrNydAUBtTU jk+QvtqLOunx0GevdtUwQQpdoVDoRsKx8Eh+bOLKjipD5DPqb6mi5BcKYmHTp8Oq3umI 8/rQGfyqdoMYaharrwz5iw3UqpZqDeEgpfd71SNmjKHqcqXYetOhycJcC0MwhTgi1LUN nNmyFlBib6P71EqvduPGnl1xwxR4L/LgpRk8Ma5XgcKli8NBsWbppS5bbiaCDIJbN8rs TtOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=X5ZHccmXzaU9+ZBQw183CjkfcEETMArdV+yIeUvI08M=; b=XTWY/MhRokfr3nV91PfpE655YUtwcHn1xPkslvGRUyFzS56x6etpPMVIsmcWi5EUjf yjSBc3mu7WausRYbWZ27xCKWI0yEIpiMH5zM7xAdnb8otg3bDuSk7/G5MYwDN3Yp2ses r6eHbu4Nz1pnIpxMbFLL8vG5k0zLRdxTyEOFWjizOtwFBLCmDqbcIvaowpEmSgYIlzdW EszXFlSc+hSlrKWOnWrA/BKziPJdU3EERgVeQHwRPKerK7SrnoH6OsTXNIp58scgP+eL Mr67zZHnlHSo6OP0YT0SC6fOCcQs3AkPxFVtxN4/k/uvPGIwk3+0eNXJ9kQPdCyG2S0l hGtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5303jwWj5yqEf6W9ltAMLrZoCtFJBMgct5YRdQPNzuqjwvbPBV7E N65h/976ggj/WOgiOiaBWsHM4BuYBzIt5GFkmHw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0/RaBS9hgLt1fJYt4llCI68zjb9ixjLd9YPLMIPWZXqQrv0wL+PzrwXANVwq6B+z6DR9oWA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e94:: with SMTP id 20mr42974706qtp.150.1636082914869; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 20:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m66sm4740436qkb.87.2021.11.04.20.28.34 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Nov 2021 20:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 23:28:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 03:28:44 -0000 On 11/4/2021 11:19 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > To address your quesitons directly... > No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to > simply expand their scope as they see fit.  Having that right would > undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the > assumptions that enabled compromise. > > I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for > publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we > have agreed to assign to the RSWG.  I do not think that includes > management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC > Editor web site. > > Yours, > Joel Agreeing with Joel, let me propose a change to the "chapeau" from below: > Policies under the purview of the RSWG and RSAB might include but are > not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication > and dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of the RFC Series. becomes: Policies described within the Editorial series might include, but are not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCs, and a general model for overall management of the RFC series. For avoidance of doubt, the RSWG shall have no role in the day to day operation of the RFC series, and the RSAB shall have only the roles described within this document with respect to operation of the series.  Such roles or lack of roles may not be expanded without the concurrence of the IAB and the IESG or absent a general expression of consensus by the community for the change. > > On 11/4/2021 10:49 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Hi Eliot, >> >>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 3:27 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jay and Mark, >>> >>> Here is what the  Section 3 chapeau currently reads: >>> >>>> Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the >>>> open through proposals that are generated by and discussed within >>>> the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC >>>> Series Approval Board (RSAB). >>> >>>> Policies under the purview of the RSWG and RSAB might include but >>>> are not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for >>>> publication and dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of >>>> the RFC Series. >>> >>> As I read it, this permits the RSWG and RSAB to publish the sort of >>> RFC you are suggesting to be written.  Such an RFC could state both >>> transparency and coordination requirements, as well as operational >>> expectations.  As you wrote, such an RFC would cover all much of >>> what you described. >>> >>> Mark, again as I read the above text, it does not specifically >>> address your concerns, but provides you an avenue to get your >>> concerns addressed once the RSWG is created.  Do you read it the >>> same way, and do you (and others) believe that is sufficient for us >>> to proceed with this document? >> >> I have two concerns at this point: >> >> 1) While that's a reasonable reading of the above, some have strongly >> pushed back on this area as 'out of scope.' If they were pushing back >> on including some of the detailed work that Jay so helpfully >> categorised as being homed in the RPC and LLC, that's understandable. >> However, if there's pushback on any discussion of this area *at all* >> in the RSWG, I'd be concerned that the scope of the WG was being used >> to limit community oversight and input. >> >> 2) The path you outline could result in the RSWG considering >> publishing an RFC that creates new bodies or new communication >> channels to pursue these topics. Execution of those functions could >> involve the RSWG in some capacity -- whether in an oversight role or >> in direct consultation or decision making -- without the publication >> of an RFC for each decision. Therefore, I'd expect that the RSWG >> would be able to modify its operation (subject to RSAB oversight) to >> accommodate that, and any argument that doing so were out of scope >> would be toothless. Is that the clearly case? >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >> > From nobody Thu Nov 4 21:18:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF50B3A0C28 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:18:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=n2BztKRs; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=lA8fLddH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5_i3imuq9Vo for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23DF93A0C26 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361593201CCC; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 00:18:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=Z z8Hfesc8Y/S54kuJp0B1+mEgeIHl6WUmCRoHd6o1to=; b=n2BztKRsnpHWHXyIG NmcyzU3Ckp5CMWXiIWv4Y/8Hw3YNR7rFd/sUutxoxGflATqUjfy9f4fPwbffDEX5 yCcAT+CzsGRvW4XPiMdfzZToYfeLbinMffSjtvHHcXT9vsMlBK6srDNTbYH233Eo AoHQcRmYwu4klB8xhoYdYYkSS7ggk6avSRa/5wUS5pWMO4G+3UvtQW/SNK4Gm45g CyXnkqh4uO8vzE7P0tj2gm3FSL7QGvzJ1EHD/nA/SoafWTFnlOswRzIs5LjpXqFe FS8A6q8fzwUVOpylXL4XUeUbLepXud13YImnc2nHKiXk5Y9OFJJhxYWBGx7M0yFn 7W4sg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Zz8Hfesc8Y/S54kuJp0B1+mEgeIHl6WUmCRoHd6o1 to=; b=lA8fLddHUAOOg3Hj+Q6p0U5xOlet4N3q5PQGHiyXamk5EhV3n1rozWzxi j7tLMFBvrQhHP3fQdC3Vn7XFNnAU0mFSdhtZWUSX4JqNVrOG3KoQl0Ef4PE1Smji qSbNLOWYEOytqk9fOEDFUOgt7XS3+6B5hWzUOwXutYsEYh+CpB/kdgb5egf1HO2J T0+VMQsKcigxbmDboeSTuSOqoreIOa47nDr+12GbrO4kiEcK8YvRyY1sYq0dSrvm TEI1yU8UeVeWlVjdyiIxU+cbzRUTzPKKxVLnEKUJ7DUZeBJeOZ1HsQiTF12z5pwx /xijDIASf/y7SmSzUOZfjUnSV7Qww== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtdehgdeiiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutd ehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueetteenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtse hmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:18:12 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 04:18:23 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to = simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would = undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions = that enabled compromise. What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the ability = to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC = without publishing an RFC? > I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for = publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we = have agreed to assign to the RSWG. I do not think that includes = management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC Editor = web site. 'Tools' is a word that's used imprecisely in the IETF. Would you = consider the following in scope? - Whether there should be an RSS feed with particular kinds of content = available - What specific information should be available on the site - What *requirements* the layout, tools, or content structure should = honour Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 4 21:36:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82683A0764 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4BrHlZiIp7xS for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33D023A074B for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hlnll3rgdz6G9NH; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:36:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636087011; bh=YhtDBFv+TiMjamqMOaAg4gIO3amngiPuBx3fbKJbWQs=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=lVVzQrEuhwdv4BLUey3twAsdedaf8ly0J+88VEFp02j9fexnVGeSccsUUdzgqPHtU TJGbLqYYKswoo172sDt0klBkY/Fw4fKj2zMAhLBhBKSnaH/9WboAh+B+YdTOiTdyx8 zvh21ic3aUtbkQTb9aDt30I7R35npFPwbRld2Ugk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hlnll0QCFz6G9N6; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:36:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 04:36:57 -0000 In line. Although the real answer to most of the second set of questions is "it depends". Yours, Joel On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled compromise. > > What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the ability to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RFC? Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the compromises of the structure. Also, it seems to me that as long as the goal is policy, the cost of producing an RFC seems an acceptable cost for getting the work done well. > >> I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we have agreed to assign to the RSWG. I do not think that includes management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC Editor web site. > > 'Tools' is a word that's used imprecisely in the IETF. Would you consider the following in scope? > > - Whether there should be an RSS feed with particular kinds of content available If asked as "whether the RFC Editor web site should support a subscription form of access to some set of data (e.g. newly publish RFCs), I can see that as policy. Saying it is RSS is implementation. > - What specific information should be available on the site This gets marginal, but certainly can be policy. For example, the question of whether the RFC Editor makes available versions of RFCs with the accepted errata inlined does seem to be policy. That such be clearly identified is probably policy. How it is to be presented is clearly NOT policy. > - What *requirements* the layout, tools, or content structure should honour Clearly, come of those requirements (e.g. ADA access) are policy. And some things people describe as "requirements on layout (though shalt use style sheet "foo") are not policy. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Thu Nov 4 22:22:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57B13A0CB7 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 22:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=hWmhkOZX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=A7wVkgDq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fABxdwDMjVIt for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 22:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD9383A0CB2 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 22:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063B03201C36; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 01:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 01:22:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=b QJa1nhp8XxE1pL2G6lMj0WnhBhYboC4FptmNbrgjg0=; b=hWmhkOZXLt9QGqukY 5TW7iUs4TDRZl25kDmWn3vVnMgDV7YJo88S3yQtO1+qebtRh33tbnHOsuSDJCYQZ jacP4HbP3gFON8rkOpwtDuIKnDD+gRN4UpiAqVPKeF3U1rkEVH1JdJKTDZOLYzWR ZHjNj2Oj9UzE11nMwCwLYC3zyfJRGX7axXZO5xSLUQT9Ix5yz/cWv/M/1d4hrgnV rt1AgFRGksdwtIx+scsHmAUPHcKeQa/SBtor4ni9y3/PLwW8kd+cNaLDfslJ2xQX U3V74Rcucz12NLnroK/Ej530eheZgcwCIX3z6eFWHmQuAdG02Gq1FATiPVhH34p+ OJWYQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bQJa1nhp8XxE1pL2G6lMj0WnhBhYboC4FptmNbrgj g0=; b=A7wVkgDqZ4iHUHSK+4wtMAAHnr0X8xoXiWN0aBabLwv1z0VagkZ1vB66q k/8t1aJm6Tea8PjF7dswdRz/fHOJUITA8HxqDDlzeR/xH6tgNw3vsYSlU9+KT5hp 6M2DKHHRoUHNtlJPCEmIs91Ywt+xrsklU9RC7zT0qSj4VP1oy66iiaoyWjMK5/bX DBBenMVFIttg1hsvgXFjIL6JLNRgGH8hci3aB+hCmbthj54/sLyYVFK2dgXchs8y ggBSXDKYnufnaBxo1rr7V9XE4sZqKXxjY0GO0+67cJRImehFQGF7aV1wQgSYaF5e VIEjmWVSPtJs0fB2pZFLJg494YowA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrtdehgdejlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeiteduuddvudfftedtuddvgeehtdeuhe ehjeegledtleekvefgffehfefffeffgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhi rggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 01:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:22:38 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 05:22:50 -0000 Hi Joel, Inline as well. I think we're making progress, at least in terms of = isolating the specific issues. > On 5 Nov 2021, at 3:36 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > In line. Although the real answer to most of the second set of = questions is "it depends". >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >>>=20 >>> No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to = simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would = undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions = that enabled compromise. >> What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the = ability to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the = RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RFC? >=20 > Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the = oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing = an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the = compromises of the structure. I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- = but Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility. > Also, it seems to me that as long as the goal is policy, the cost of = producing an RFC seems an acceptable cost for getting the work done = well. Publishing an RFC is *extremely* onerous these days. I note that both = the IESG and IAB document policy-like things on the Web as a result.=20 https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/ https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/iesg-coi-policy/ https://www.iab.org/documents/correspondence-reports-documents/ = https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-polic= y/ Requiring an RFC for any statement from the RSWG is going to hobble its = ability to do even simple things like answer a question from the = Executive Director or RPC. If someone sees an obvious improvement that = can quickly gain consensus, they'll need to either publish an RFC or = (more likely, if they know the right people) make a quiet suggestion on = the side. We seem to agree that RSWG/RSAB are authoritative for the content on the = RFC Editor site, in the sense that when there's disagreement about it, = it will be resolved there. Is it really practical to wait for an RFC to = be published if a problem comes up that requires that authority to be = exercised? >>> I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for = publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we = have agreed to assign to the RSWG. I do not think that includes = management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC Editor = web site. >> 'Tools' is a word that's used imprecisely in the IETF. Would you = consider the following in scope? >> - Whether there should be an RSS feed with particular kinds of = content available > If asked as "whether the RFC Editor web site should support a = subscription form of access to some set of data (e.g. newly publish = RFCs), I can see that as policy. Saying it is RSS is implementation. Implementation is 'write a Perl script to produce the feed.' Specifying = RSS (or more likely in our case, Atom, since it has an RFC) is a = functional requirement -- i.e., we are requiring the site to = interoperate with feed readers. Just as 'publish a Web site' implies use = of HTML, not PDF. If we can't agree to allow the RSWG to say such things, fine -- but it = seems like an absurd limitation to force the RSWG to state everything in = abstract weasel words for the LLC and RPC to interpret, and let's be = clear: we're placing all of our faith in the LLC coming up with the = appropriate way to deal with these 'implementation details', outside of = the community as constituted. That's less transparent and open than I'd = expect. >> - What specific information should be available on the site > This gets marginal, but certainly can be policy. For example, the = question of whether the RFC Editor makes available versions of RFCs with = the accepted errata inlined does seem to be policy. That such be = clearly identified is probably policy. How it is to be presented is = clearly NOT policy. Agreed. >> - What *requirements* the layout, tools, or content structure should = honour > Clearly, come of those requirements (e.g. ADA access) are policy. And = some things people describe as "requirements on layout (though shalt use = style sheet "foo") are not policy. Agreed (it does indeed depend). Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Nov 5 00:56:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624933A0D66; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hiUDHSrhoKXw; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D5343A0D63; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 00:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A57umIR3218734 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Nov 2021 08:56:49 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636099009; bh=K0Lf/L/IQjJCR1gDj7Ia/j52ycC3uH+E8ggRxFwhEHk=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=DOsdr1AKgGojNCL3i4uF6LxceIz1sMqxfdvi3vSdAJVeCuEAXba2CaSUWP/FR5Vi5 RvhmkfSxmjyX/9w9r5C9lN62NTHLUWVwfVDfvnKG41/L14GkWyfUACHkNzkM611RGa aeeA3py9trMJyJSuaghC071FJDIyKHsdccscmt7k= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 08:56:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------YeksWMmeV1Th4QubSMEXVJbA" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 07:56:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------YeksWMmeV1Th4QubSMEXVJbA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------PaBk5Ve01G0WzRpnZxg4vx4S"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> --------------PaBk5Ve01G0WzRpnZxg4vx4S Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------KaH0hc10AHk0Qd4LqvlJEPFF" --------------KaH0hc10AHk0Qd4LqvlJEPFF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------R7oWI64enc7w3ge30oPEasEd" --------------R7oWI64enc7w3ge30oPEasEd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyaywgTWlrZSwgYW5kIEpvZWwsDQoNClZlcnkgcHJvZHVjdGl2ZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9u LsKgIFRMO0RSIC0gc2NvcGUgb2YgZG9jdW1lbnQgcHJvYmFibHkgb2ssIA0KbWF5YmUgdHdl 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Hi Mark, Mike, and Joel,

Very productive discussion.=C2=A0 TL;DR - scope of document probab= ly ok, maybe tweak Section 3 chapeau to match Section 6 change of scope rules.=C2=A0 Now please see below.

On 05.11.21 06:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: 
On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mar=
k Nottingham wrote:

On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19=
 pm, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply e=
xpand their scope as they see fit.  Having that right would undermine mos=
t of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled =
compromise.

What about introducing n=
ew processes within its scope? E.g., the ability to gain consensus on a q=
uestion and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RF=
C?

Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversig=
ht by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alte=
rnative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the comprom=
ises of the structure.

I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- b=
ut Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility.

My reading of the text agrees that the RSWG is really geared toward establishing policies and producing RFCs.*=C2=A0 For them to= play an active role in managing content would require an entirely different decision process that is, as of yet, undocumented.=C2=A0 Would that be a good idea?=C2=A0 Up to the community to decide, but= it would, I think, be an impractical place to start, in order to achieve what I understand to be your goals.

I think the closest analog we have is the committer model in some OSS projects, where by agreement different people keep track of different parts of the code, and those committers get selected through various political processes =E2=80=93 perhaps that's where = you are aiming.=C2=A0 I could easily envision something akin to that here, = and maybe that is a good hypothetical to discuss.

The question at hand is what policy would the RSWG state to cause that model to come to be.

Could an RFC state something along these lines (just an example):<= /p>

  1. The LLC is requested to establish an OSS committer model that covers the following components: the RFC Editor web site, production, input processing, etc.
  2. The LLC is requested to provide a public log of all changes.
  3. Committers shall be selected by a committee {elected by the RSWG members OR appointed by the LLC OR appointed by the RSAB OR ....}
  4. Committer responsibilities include ensuring proper CI/CD for each change, validating, reviewing.
  5. The LLC may back out changes that it finds conflict with established policies or might otherwise unduly impact contractual responsibilities such as SLAs.
  6. Committers may be removed by {rough consensus of the RSWG OR vote of RSAB OR by whim of=C2=A0 Brian Rosen OR...}

There is some heavy lifting in the each of these bullets.=C2=A0 Ag= ain, my reading of this document allows for these sorts of negotiations to take place in the RSWG, under the current scope of authority.=C2= =A0 Could there be a conflict in with LLC model as negotiations take place?=C2=A0 Sure.=C2=A0 I would expect reason to prevail.=C2=A0 Th= e LLC is simply not going to implement something that they can't implement.<= /p>

And this is just one hypothetical example.=C2=A0 There may indeed = be others, such as overlapping decision processes within the RSWG.=C2=A0= I don't know how those would look, but it sounds... messy.=C2=A0 And those might require a change of scope.=C2=A0 We are already saying = that editorial series scope changes require additional layers of approval.=C2=A0 We could very much borrow some text from Section 6,= along the lines that Mike has mentioned.**=C2=A0 The implication wo= uld be that we should try to use the LLC relationship we have before doing major surgery.

If people agree, we will need to wordsmith the Section 3 chapeau slightly, but not in a way that I think changes the overall intent in our work.

Eliot

*Entertainment/bar moment: Mark Twain once said, =E2=80=9CThere is= no such thing as a new idea...=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 The model we have is som= ewhat analogous to the separation of powers in the US, where the legislature (RSWG as lower house/RSAB as upper house) proposes and the executive (LLC) disposes.=C2=A0 And so the LLC would have to establish community involvement and transparency mechanisms that are guided by the legislation created by the RSWG/RSAB.

**Mike, I take it you took your proposed chapeau text directly from Section 6?

Eliot

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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGE48AFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOW +wgAjDb+PoILmrmoNUl4S32btv6qEat2Fj6qvTPpuQJu1kThBe42imIBYGr/sW9JvwEdv2i+rH1K TmExHtQpsUE14PnkOdTghg7b0wrY+0xf47Rb3LXgGZcTqnDOJ/vNMPID/ReALk3EvH1FkzVjgfks 3BJSDAET9hTfxhXqcN2liru5XQCx6+CkY2E4q54F7tR1uovHr0rCkcdJEuEXZhtGmtS9IVOK+2M5 TUOaZNC//g4f0TzUTV8R7GCyUNNJvaTvO3a8bVq58qhXvyaJNnxog2zDa3Rfl3D0wIh+1bQgDhhU PaSuYwihmWSdybuf0d8nX/D/fcr1kDDBcwNyPISU8g== =uY9L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------YeksWMmeV1Th4QubSMEXVJbA-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 01:52:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CBB3A0DD7 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 01:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments.=C2=A0 Please see below for proposed dispositions.=C2=A0 For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion.=C2=A0 Others are of course free to disagree, in which c= ase we'll put each matter on the agenda.=C2=A0 If you agree with the be= low, I'll open up issues accordingly.

Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.=C2=A0 Instead replace the second sentence here (and t= he similar language in Section 2 third para with:

"This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals."

Editorial.


Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.=C2=A0 Ins= ert "Editorial" before "Series".

Editorial.


Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/

Editorial

Section 2, 3rd para change from above.=C2=A0 Also, that first sentence is a run on.

Editorial


Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.=C2=A0=C2=A0 s/ultimate authority/direction/.=C2=A0 Inser= t after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community".

Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108.


Section 3, first para s/that are//=C2=A0 There are also missing commas.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community las= t call, "

Editorial

Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/

I'm not sure which instance you're referring to.


Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it.

Currently that text reads:

Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting the 3 month timer).


Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.=C2=A0 I may have missed= this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.=C2=A0=C2=A0 DISCUSS.

There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the group.=C2=A0 The one within the group occurs at (4).=C2=A0 The one = beyond the group occurs at (6).=C2=A0 Please note that this is covered in detail in Section 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Could you please be more specific as= to what you want to discuss?


Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence =3D "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?=C2=A0 DISCUSS.

This is, at least in part, Issue 93.=C2=A0 Please see Martin's proposed text.=C2=A0 Again, please be more specific in what you wan= t to discuss.


Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think some la= nguage is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes."

In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial.=C2=A0 I propose that this change simply be adopted.<= br>


Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract".

Editorial.

Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/

Not editorial.

Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.=C2=A0 Suggest=C2= =A0 inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence.=C2=A0 Referencing the curre= nt contract may also be useful here.

Not editorial.


Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.=C2=A0 Instead:=C2=A0 "H= owever, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Basical= ly, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed.<= /p>

This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed.


Section 4.6.1 Second para.=C2=A0 There should be additional text= here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal.

Not editorial.

Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.=C2=A0 I've pretty much lost the argument abo= ut constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.=C2=A0 This document neuters the RSCE to the po= int where their only real customer is the RPC.=C2=A0

I am not sure what you are proposing.


Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.=C2=A0 Such contracts shall be discl= osed publicly".=C2=A0 There are too few people that might want to enga= ge with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.=C2=A0 I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Eliot
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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGE8LcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPB AggA1gcnZhll6TuD2wpGzA1OvPpISRqzSkmbHNI41hUorxZjS8FwdtWxlH8y3m1zgcgT0Rl0vJ7h LPMdt5Kq8znQWryxJRXtB/N7FtPjitBr7CbXFapJYQ6yJDEJ9zbOha9uY6DspVUhd/IdLRgmH0wu do/GuL9vZJ6yspA47B5kbdBFpJ+rKCpfVe9BaDStwoKKSDNLDJ4N/Hl2vqWgpx9InJaYU79js7bp 19xohAnCs2RjoVbb+wTI+LXhAQYIPXdxVaGecREl1Lk++AXnEUJISib8F+SfoqPVNT3G0bFEPlBB 6tNRUjTdlXqDGgFELtepDG7+b3CuND+MUxRHgjMgTg== =d6aY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------1G7EfQMjKo9Vct4hljwIjmza-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 02:15:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAE23A0DF6 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:15:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J03RjGeB7SCA for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7CCD3A0DF4 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mivJD-0006AM-Gs; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:14:51 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:14:50 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <974E27F9-0774-4AFC-A711-73502B8740A7@kuehlewind.net> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636103695;9fedc9b3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mivJD-0006AM-Gs Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 09:15:00 -0000 I proposed in an earlier mail to replace "RPC under authority of the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D With "as contractually overseen by the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D The second phase is already used once in the document and I think it = would be more correct to use it everywhere. =46rom my point of view we don=E2=80=99t necessarily need to add "on = behalf of the community=E2=80=9D because that=E2=80=99s what is defined = in RFC8711 as Brian Carpenter pointed out multiple time already. = However, maybe a reference to RFCC8711 would actually be appropriate? Do people agree? Mirja P.S.: Eliot opened issue #122 for this: https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/122 > On 4. Nov 2021, at 23:09, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >> other than to the LLC itself. >=20 > The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is = acting on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. = Contract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and = responsibilities. "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer is. >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Fri Nov 5 02:32:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C583A041C; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLRPf4QXJo1z; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D39813A040D; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 02:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee728b20079249552a5b1d108.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:7924:9552:a5b1:d108]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mivZj-0002OY-SU; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:31:56 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:31:52 +0100 Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636104725;3a381eee; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mivZj-0002OY-SU Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 09:32:11 -0000 Hi Brian, > On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say =E2=80=9C= [The IESG] also >> administers IETF logistics, including operation of the = Internet-Draft >> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D >> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web pages = as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D. >> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and when = the old ietf.org page was still up. =46rom the RFC it seems, however, = quite cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in = scope for=20 > the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side where = authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. = information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). >=20 > Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but the = implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web site, and = controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC tools and web = site. I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 different = angles about the website strategy, function design, content, and = infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for the = infrastructure of running and maintaining the website, there is a gap in = who owns the content and functions design decisions. And based on my own = interactions with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be = responsible for the content, beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written = down in RFCs, as that would require more community responsibility. While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the IESG = website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or LLC that = has authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t = think that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also = be true for IETF website. So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the = right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require = policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpage) but = decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or something = entirely new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up adding more = bureaucracy and positions to the model)... Mirja =20 > But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that the = LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far as = rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it does seem = that our draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. = We can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. >=20 > Brian >=20 >> Mirja >>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with = the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is = with the IESG which a board of community members selected by community = member. >>>=20 >>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that language. >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>> >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Fri Nov 5 06:01:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84BB3A0776; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 06:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fR3Ro3H56oUi; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AC293A0749; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1miyqP-0007ss-Mb; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 09:01:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 09:01:15 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 13:01:34 -0000 --On Friday, November 5, 2021 08:56 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: >... > *Entertainment/bar moment: Mark Twain once said, "There is > no such thing as a new idea..."=C2=A0 The model we have is > somewhat analogous to the separation of powers in the US, > where the legislature (RSWG as lower house/RSAB as upper > house) proposes and the executive (LLC) disposes.=C2=A0 And so = the > LLC would have to establish community involvement and > transparency mechanisms that are guided by the legislation > created by the RSWG/RSAB. Eliot, Poor analogy. More specifically, the analogy more or less works as long as everything goes smoothly. If they don't, the US system is supposed to include a third branch which can interpret those decisions and actions and enforce consistency with more general and lasting principles (we seem to be in the middle of a test as to whether that will continue to work). More important, that legislative body has the power to remove an executive who does not implement the policies it sets. Neither the RSWG/RSAG combination nor the "IETF community" (whatever that means) have the authority to remove the LLC or override its decisions. john From nobody Fri Nov 5 09:13:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6ED3A115A for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 09:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AnYWmIoRWwNN for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 09:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 606183A0DBB for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 09:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A5GDgsn3461116 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:13:43 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636128823; bh=dDnYgimXq9vqABg5IpKhocshM4kT3kNjjLVO/6AONac=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=MdiWGtVGSpbOWQv4fdnP6kVXi/cLesg19Kf7AXw2kU1i4J2q4Lk+bEHjxvpLOso2R tv1o3OkTroqP4jqGegIbiRnXf9Pa1gc3tbNwbquKr+hmJ8PfBn4JZ91d+TrAqLfYJ4 2Ybq8ElPCPooWdQUV8JxwgCYj5aBFEwzbH/ihxxY= Message-ID: <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:13:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------vp6CVuQ95KOsDYWcguyPhkdm" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:13:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------vp6CVuQ95KOsDYWcguyPhkdm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------cyj4A0WfFVTCndQ2O7JRnuTB"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> --------------cyj4A0WfFVTCndQ2O7JRnuTB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FGW6uh6Sk10w4apJBlRwAs0Z" --------------FGW6uh6Sk10w4apJBlRwAs0Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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b=L+6swW0UT152j72OnS8t9qaehHDCKjqAUooYAaKh7HpMPASGpgLFPRhODI5ta17ar oKhTVBpbvZttqIG7pHpTHInpVjnuwrgh6V58SztP8B2cDupVEf7OwP8zOe9SU6pqwS XSwK91XbuZK3x16KPiEuL2E9+ZkdDBQhSUrbrdrw= Message-ID: <353d2dfb-f2be-e075-069d-1cac19424abf@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:23:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------AbyKCaay3wb0hrhsBWW6Imyi" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Next week's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:23:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------AbyKCaay3wb0hrhsBWW6Imyi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------gLwYRC0KvzR8NiWZ8KahpUvj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <353d2dfb-f2be-e075-069d-1cac19424abf@lear.ch> Subject: Next week's meeting --------------gLwYRC0KvzR8NiWZ8KahpUvj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------wHI01N07QqDC39iaRWPWvGaW" --------------wHI01N07QqDC39iaRWPWvGaW Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------eXY6f0O7W6iYatBIbjAU4ZZN" --------------eXY6f0O7W6iYatBIbjAU4ZZN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgZXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNCllvdSBjYW4gZmluZCBvdXIgbWVldGluZyBtYXRlcmlhbHMgZm9y IG5leHQgd2VlaydzIG1lZXRpbmcgYXQ6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWVldGluZy8xMTIvc2Vzc2lvbi9yZmNlZmRwDQoNCkZvciB3aGF0IHdlIGhvcGUgdG8g YmUgdGhlIGxhc3QgdGltZSwgd2UgYXJlIGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yIGEgc2NyaWJlLsKgIA0KQXBw 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Hi everyone,

You can find our meeting materials for next week's meeting at:

=

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/1= 12/session/rfcefdp

For what we hope to be the last time, we are looking for a scribe.=C2=A0 Apply within, as they say.

Finally, a plea from the chairs.=C2=A0 We have but one hour.=C2=A0= This was because we expected slightly fewer issues than we got, and to accommodate the IESG and IETF in terms of being economical with our time.

To move things along, PLEASE be current on the mailing list discussion, and proposed text.=C2=A0 My intent is to move brisquely= as follows:

  • Editorial issues will receive very little time- just to confirm that they are indeed editorial.
  • Issues where it seems we have consensus on changes will receive roughly speaking the same treatment, but people may call out anything that concerns them.
  • Issues where there doesn't seem to be support for changes.=C2=A0= Unless people voice support, we're going to move on.
  • Issues where it's clear we need more discussion.=C2=A0 There ar= e very few of these.

In=C2=A0 this way we should be able to finish in the allotted time= , but it will help greatly if people DO voice support in advance of the meeting for proposed changes others have made.

Eliot


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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j24sm5683453qkg.133.2021.11.05.10.56.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ZqBm06wg5RLmO5RaXUA2IIO1" Message-ID: <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:56:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:56:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ZqBm06wg5RLmO5RaXUA2IIO1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for your comments.  Please see below for proposed > dispositions.  For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something > is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to > incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion.  > Others are of course free to disagree, in which case we'll put each > matter on the agenda.  If you agree with the below, I'll open up > issues accordingly. > >> Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition. This is >> worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is >> planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar >> language in Section 2 third para with: >> >> "This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group >> (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board >> (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals." >> > Editorial. > If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's choice", then this isn't editorial. As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group which produces policy proposals...." referring back to "Policy definition governing the Series as a whole.   Yes, there is the follow on clause of "subject to", but the responsibility as written is tied to the proposing, not to the proposing and approval.  The latter is correct.  As written it is not. Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping the last clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything beginning with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated diagramming sentences in English class?  This is a recursive sentence with two clauses,  each of which modifies the section before it.  In other words, a three-level sentence. The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC Series as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes policies, and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it currently is. > >> Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through >> publication of/of the concepts described in/. Insert "Editorial" >> before "Series". >> > Editorial. > Maybe.   The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing documents" either in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series.  I think this is a non-controversial change, but needs to be made whether editorial or not. >> >> Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/ >> > Editorial Yup. >> >> Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is >> a run on. >> > Editorial > See the first item - this needs to track that. > > >> Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of >> policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert after "LLC)" "on >> behalf of the community". >> > Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108. > Yes. > > >> Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   >> Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, " >> > Editorial Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of the process and is not cited here and needs to be. >> >> Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/ >> > I'm not sure which instance you're referring to. > Sorry - last sentence.  The RSWG rough consensus is not the only consideration, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense of the community gleaned from the community last call that's important here.  RSWG members represent their own points of view, and taken collectively may even be out of step with the broader community that doesn't have the time to spend nit picking words and comments.  The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, but pay attention if the community has issues the RSWG has decided do not merit their attention. Probably related to #93, but more general > >> Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." >> place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to >> dig through the piles of emails to try and find it. >> > Currently that text reads: > >> Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be >> delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a >> maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the >> RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above. > > This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting > the 3 month timer). > This whole section could use tightening.  I'll wait for the next document, but I can live with the general idea here - even though in this electronic society, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send things around for a snail mail vote - 5 times. > > >> Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but >> I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing >> the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS. >> > There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the > group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The one beyond the > group occurs at (6).  Please note that this is covered in detail in > Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you want > to discuss? > Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized we'd falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the community last call because the IESG does the community last call.  That makes less sense here for a number of reasons. First, the RSAB and the RSWG have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests that the WG.  Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded down with other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal  with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task).  Lastly, the RSWG is where the motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG. So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the RSWG has met consensus. This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work here is just wrong. > >> Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence = "only on grounds of >> failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just >> RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS. >> > This is, at least in part, Issue 93.  Please see Martin's proposed > text.  Again, please be more specific in what you want to discuss. > Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the community has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively participating in the RSWG.  The RSWG is *really* different from an IETF WG or even an IRTF RG in that pretty much everything it does can affect everyone. So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, but not sufficient.  There at least needs to be community buy-in or at least grudging acceptance and that may not come until the community last call, and may not actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a proposal is particularly onerous. This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 has to acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the only input into the RSAB's decision process. There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that trumps even the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on behalf of the community.  This ties in with the other discussions such as those from Mark wanting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what we've agreed to. The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without pain. > >> Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some language is >> needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which >> apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial >> stream documents and the requisite contractual changes." >> > In my view, this is *not* editorial but also not controversial.  I > propose that this change simply be adopted. > > Yes > >> Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - >> duplicative with "contract". >> > Editorial. > Yes >> >> Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - >> this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals >> rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC >> board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/ >> > Not editorial. > Not editorial, but not really controversial.  Refer to Jay for comment prior to opening an issue? > >> Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from >> time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these >> documents unless incorporated by reference. Suggest  inserting "(as >> of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long >> run on sentence. Referencing the current contract may also be useful >> here. >> > Not editorial. > Maybe.  This section can't be normative or directive because of outside issues.  I think that was always the intent, but maybe not captured by the text. > > >> Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "However, in the >> interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties >> best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to >> propose a more general policy." Basically, as written it implies the >> RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed. >> > This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed. > This my text alternate to Martin's in #94.  I don't think this is necessarily an RSAB issue for all items.  Basically the rule is that decisions get reported to the RSAB/RSWG.  The RSAB may poke its nose in immediately, the RSWG will consider whether documents need to be written. > >> Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here >> requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that >> draft prior to issuing it for proposal. >> > Not editorial. > Maybe.  This is implied by community input at the end of the second para, but just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW process.  This is what the RSOC did for the iRSE. Refer to Jay for comment before opening an issue? >> Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs >> section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining >> the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the >> section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community >> input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document >> neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. >> > I am not sure what you are proposing. > I'm not sure I am either!   Given the RSCE responsibilities in 5.2, I'd replace "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for confidential input from the community in the form of a questionnaire on specific RSCE responsibilities to the community".    Let's at least try and make this useful, rather than a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit for things they aren't responsible for simply because they have RFC Series in their title.  Open an issue? > > >> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  >> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't >> make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >> > Not editorial. > Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue? > > Eliot --------------ZqBm06wg5RLmO5RaXUA2IIO1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below for proposed dispositions.  For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion.  Others are of course free to disagree, in which case we'll put each matter on the agenda.  If you agree with the below, I'll open up issues accordingly.

Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition.   This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third para with:

"This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals."

Editorial.

If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's choice", then this isn't editorial. 

As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group which produces policy proposals...." referring back to "Policy definition governing the Series as a whole.   Yes, there is the follow on clause of "subject to", but the responsibility as written is tied to the proposing, not to the proposing and approval.  The latter is correct.  As written it is not. 

Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping the last clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything beginning with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated diagramming sentences in English class?  This is a recursive sentence with two clauses,  each of which modifies the section before it.  In other words, a three-level sentence.

The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC Series as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes policies, and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it currently is.


Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.  Insert "Editorial" before "Series".

Editorial.

Maybe.   The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing documents" either in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series.  I think this is a non-controversial change, but needs to be made whether editorial or not.

Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/

Editorial
Yup.

Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is a run on.

Editorial

See the first item - this needs to track that.


Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community".

Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108.

Yes.


Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, "

Editorial
Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of the process and is not cited here and needs to be.

Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/

I'm not sure which instance you're referring to.

Sorry - last sentence.  The RSWG rough consensus is not the only consideration, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense of the community gleaned from the community last call that's important here.  RSWG members represent their own points of view, and taken collectively may even be out of step with the broader community that doesn't have the time to spend nit picking words and comments.  The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, but pay attention if the community has issues the RSWG has decided do not merit their attention.

Probably related to #93, but more general


Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it.

Currently that text reads:

Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting the 3 month timer).

This whole section could use tightening.  I'll wait for the next document, but I can live with the general idea here - even though in this electronic society, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send things around for a snail mail vote - 5 times.


Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS.

There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The one beyond the group occurs at (6).  Please note that this is covered in detail in Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you want to discuss?

Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized we'd falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the community last call because the IESG does the community last call.  That makes less sense here for a number of reasons.  First, the RSAB and the RSWG have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests that the WG.  Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded down with other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal  with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task).  Lastly, the RSWG is where the motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG.

So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the RSWG has met consensus.

This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work here is just wrong.


Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence = "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS.

This is, at least in part, Issue 93.  Please see Martin's proposed text.  Again, please be more specific in what you want to discuss.

Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the community has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively participating in the RSWG.  The RSWG is *really* different from an IETF WG or even an IRTF RG in that pretty much everything it does can affect everyone. 

So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, but not sufficient.  There at least needs to be community buy-in or at least grudging acceptance and that may not come until the community last call, and may not actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a proposal is particularly onerous.

This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 has to acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the only input into the RSAB's decision process. 

There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that trumps even the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on behalf of the community.  This ties in with the other discussions such as those from Mark wanting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what we've agreed to.

The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without pain.


Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some language is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes."

In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial.  I propose that this change simply be adopted.


Yes

Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract".

Editorial.

Yes

Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/

Not editorial.

Not editorial, but not really controversial.  Refer to Jay for comment prior to opening an issue?

Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.  Suggest  inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence.  Referencing the current contract may also be useful here.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This section can't be normative or directive because of outside issues.  I think that was always the intent, but maybe not captured by the text.


Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "However, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."    Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed.

This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed.

This my text alternate to Martin's in #94.  I don't think this is necessarily an RSAB issue for all items.  Basically the rule is that decisions get reported to the RSAB/RSWG.  The RSAB may poke its nose in immediately, the RSWG will consider whether documents need to be written.



Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This is implied by community input at the end of the second para, but just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW process.  This is what the RSOC did for the iRSE.   Refer to Jay for comment before opening an issue?


Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. 

I am not sure what you are proposing.

I'm not sure I am either!   Given the RSCE responsibilities in 5.2, I'd replace "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for confidential input from the community in the form of a questionnaire on specific RSCE responsibilities to the community".    Let's at least try and make this useful, rather than a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit for things they aren't responsible for simply because they have RFC Series in their title.  Open an issue?


Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue?

Eliot


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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u15sm6147633qki.99.2021.11.05.11.25.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 11:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:25:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:25:41 -0000 On 11/5/2021 12:13 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > FWIW I have opened up issues for the below unless I needed more > information from Mike, with one exception: > > On 05.11.21 09:52, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here >> requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that >> draft prior to issuing it for proposal. > > This was actually previously discussed, and the level of detailed was > negotiated into what the text says.  I have no problem with us > addressing this point, but I would like to hear from others who would > support the change, before spending time on it at the meeting. > > Eliot > If its been discussed, I'm happy to strike the comment.  I just didn't remember anything on point here. 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bl40sm6226589qkb.38.2021.11.05.11.52.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 11:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------YPAWHqTmEBwZw5rQwIXdy73W" Message-ID: <1d4a2d15-6e11-33b2-a984-ee1322ee0151@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:52:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:53:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------YPAWHqTmEBwZw5rQwIXdy73W Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/5/2021 3:56 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hi Mark, Mike, and Joel, > > Very productive discussion.  TL;DR - scope of document probably ok, > maybe tweak Section 3 chapeau to match Section 6 change of scope > rules.  Now please see below. > > On 05.11.21 06:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>> >>>>> No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled compromise. >>>> What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the ability to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RFC? >>> Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the compromises of the structure. >> I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- but Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility. > > My reading of the text agrees that the RSWG is really geared toward > establishing policies and producing RFCs.*  For them to play an active > role in managing content would require an entirely different decision > process that is, as of yet, undocumented.  Would that be a good idea?  > Up to the community to decide, but it would, I think, be an > impractical place to start, in order to achieve what I understand to > be your goals. > I'm not quite sure why we're here yet again.   We set up a division of labor way early.  If you really think we need to reopen that division of labor, I've got a whole lot of other things we can reopen at the same time that were based on the understanding of that division of labor. Basically, the RSWG writes documents - period.  It does not in any way shape or form run anything operational, nor give operational guidance, nor produce opinions except in the form of documents which have the consensus of the RSWG.  It has no mechanism for it, and there is no similar mechanism in the IETF that can be borrowed that would not end up turning the RSWG into something closer to the RSOC than most of us feel comfortable doing - and even the RSOC members were not self-selected. > I think the closest analog we have is the committer model in some OSS > projects, where by agreement different people keep track of different > parts of the code, and those committers get selected through various > political processes – perhaps that's where you are aiming.  I could > easily envision something akin to that here, and maybe that is a good > hypothetical to discuss. > > The question at hand is what policy would the RSWG state to cause that > model to come to be. > > Could an RFC state something along these lines (just an example): > > 1. The LLC is requested to establish an OSS committer model that > covers the following components: the RFC Editor web site, > production, input processing, etc. > 2. The LLC is requested to provide a public log of all changes. > 3. Committers shall be selected by a committee {elected by the RSWG > members OR appointed by the LLC OR appointed by the RSAB OR ....} > 4. Committer responsibilities include ensuring proper CI/CD for each > change, validating, reviewing. > 5. The LLC may back out changes that it finds conflict with > established policies or might otherwise unduly impact contractual > responsibilities such as SLAs. > 6. Committers may be removed by {rough consensus of the RSWG OR vote > of RSAB OR by whim of  Brian Rosen OR...} > Seriously, this reads like something out of an open source software program (which apparently it is), not a policy shop for the RFC series.   I can't see any way in which a consistent and sane RFC series could continue under a model like the above.  In particular, "elected by the RSWG members" is particularly offensive - like every other WG, there are no members, only participants - we don't do voting.  Something like that could provide the beginnings of an oligarchy who might feel free to ignore community input. I will note that the above eliminates the IESG, IAB, IRTF chair and the RPC as places where sanity might occur in the publication of documents. If you want to throw out hypotheticals, maybe there's one that isn't quite this bad?  (And don't say Wiki....) > And this is just one hypothetical example.  There may indeed be > others, such as overlapping decision processes within the RSWG. I > don't know how those would look, but it sounds... messy.  And those > might require a change of scope.  We are already saying that editorial > series scope changes require additional layers of approval.  We could > very much borrow some text from Section 6, along the lines that Mike > has mentioned.**  The implication would be that we should try to use > the LLC relationship we have before doing major surgery. > I didn't actually borrow from section 6.  Section 6 talks about the Editorial stream and the use of the BCP and STD tags.   I'm more concerned with making sure that the division of labor we've agreed upon doesn't get overthrown with the first document out of the RSWG. > > If people agree, we will need to wordsmith the Section 3 chapeau > slightly, but not in a way that I think changes the overall intent in > our work. > > Eliot > > *Entertainment/bar moment: Mark Twain once said, “There is no such > thing as a new idea...”  The model we have is somewhat analogous to > the separation of powers in the US, where the legislature (RSWG as > lower house/RSAB as upper house) proposes and the executive (LLC) > disposes.  And so the LLC would have to establish community > involvement and transparency mechanisms that are guided by the > legislation created by the RSWG/RSAB. > > **Mike, I take it you took your proposed chapeau text directly from > Section 6? > > Eliot > > --------------YPAWHqTmEBwZw5rQwIXdy73W Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/5/2021 3:56 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mark, Mike, and Joel,

Very productive discussion.  TL;DR - scope of document probably ok, maybe tweak Section 3 chapeau to match Section 6 change of scope rules.  Now please see below.

On 05.11.21 06:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: 
On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:

On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply expand their scope as they see fit.  Having that right would undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled compromise.

What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the ability to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RFC?

Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the compromises of the structure.

I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- but Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility.

My reading of the text agrees that the RSWG is really geared toward establishing policies and producing RFCs.*  For them to play an active role in managing content would require an entirely different decision process that is, as of yet, undocumented.  Would that be a good idea?  Up to the community to decide, but it would, I think, be an impractical place to start, in order to achieve what I understand to be your goals.

I'm not quite sure why we're here yet again.   We set up a division of labor way early.  If you really think we need to reopen that division of labor, I've got a whole lot of other things we can reopen at the same time that were based on the understanding of that division of labor.  

Basically, the RSWG writes documents - period.  It does not in any way shape or form run anything operational, nor give operational guidance, nor produce opinions except in the form of  documents which have the consensus of the RSWG.  It has no mechanism for it, and there is no similar mechanism in the IETF that can be borrowed that would not end up turning the RSWG into something closer to the RSOC than most of us feel comfortable doing - and even the RSOC members were not self-selected.

I think the closest analog we have is the committer model in some OSS projects, where by agreement different people keep track of different parts of the code, and those committers get selected through various political processes – perhaps that's where you are aiming.  I could easily envision something akin to that here, and maybe that is a good hypothetical to discuss.

The question at hand is what policy would the RSWG state to cause that model to come to be.

Could an RFC state something along these lines (just an example):

  1. The LLC is requested to establish an OSS committer model that covers the following components: the RFC Editor web site, production, input processing, etc.
  2. The LLC is requested to provide a public log of all changes.
  3. Committers shall be selected by a committee {elected by the RSWG members OR appointed by the LLC OR appointed by the RSAB OR ....}
  4. Committer responsibilities include ensuring proper CI/CD for each change, validating, reviewing.
  5. The LLC may back out changes that it finds conflict with established policies or might otherwise unduly impact contractual responsibilities such as SLAs.
  6. Committers may be removed by {rough consensus of the RSWG OR vote of RSAB OR by whim of  Brian Rosen OR...}

Seriously, this reads like something out of an open source software program (which apparently it is), not a policy shop for the RFC series.   I can't see any way in which a consistent and sane RFC series could continue under a model like the above.  In particular, "elected by the RSWG members" is particularly offensive - like every other WG, there are no members, only participants - we don't do voting.  Something like that could provide the beginnings of an oligarchy who might feel free to ignore community input. 

I will note that the above eliminates the IESG, IAB, IRTF chair and the RPC as places where sanity might occur in the publication of documents.   

If you want to throw out hypotheticals, maybe there's one that isn't quite this bad?  (And don't say Wiki....)

And this is just one hypothetical example.  There may indeed be others, such as overlapping decision processes within the RSWG.  I don't know how those would look, but it sounds... messy.  And those might require a change of scope.  We are already saying that editorial series scope changes require additional layers of approval.  We could very much borrow some text from Section 6, along the lines that Mike has mentioned.**  The implication would be that we should try to use the LLC relationship we have before doing major surgery.

I didn't actually borrow from section 6.  Section 6 talks about the Editorial stream and the use of the BCP and STD tags.   I'm more concerned with making sure that the division of labor we've agreed upon doesn't get overthrown with the first document out of the RSWG.  

If people agree, we will need to wordsmith the Section 3 chapeau slightly, but not in a way that I think changes the overall intent in our work.

Eliot

*Entertainment/bar moment: Mark Twain once said, “There is no such thing as a new idea...”  The model we have is somewhat analogous to the separation of powers in the US, where the legislature (RSWG as lower house/RSAB as upper house) proposes and the executive (LLC) disposes.  And so the LLC would have to establish community involvement and transparency mechanisms that are guided by the legislation created by the RSWG/RSAB.

**Mike, I take it you took your proposed chapeau text directly from Section 6?

Eliot



--------------YPAWHqTmEBwZw5rQwIXdy73W-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 12:51:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2003A0CD6 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uIQdVC7BPoFI for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7A63A0CD3 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:50:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=RrUx0sARxqp0p/p93xmajJAOaKd9TR6K8qdfi7l9aZI=; b=Wed/ZCeNP+I8GLVgsJtC3xG+x7 zjQiUofjAmAmNw1joO5ZG9xGHE4TlT1QgftgaqPpRZQqZBPye1eVI5TmQUaT2kNeqQ6I6SXhYkBU4 +cHw5KGSRwxIqIPHi/wijABigFZ36Uvh1n52IRhT79/d5TrL6b6GUD8S1tfdD02WeESq248EbQXsH LmhtdjG0kA8/cc3bqScMnR0/uIJGY+JrfzunVZJpizk84WWlEloxc+5Ls6s0a/eKKNzwVU+hhJE/A 2+ECZsXmxZT0obPTEu6oZMUUqntB0p2oJRL1sdbu+OfiKDNMLy0gLTKoZCqRa1+QxqQ792NMxPMq1 VuAS215A==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=48480 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mj5Eb-0003hg-D0; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:50:49 +0000 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3A169B91-5C5A-4BD2-AA8B-9B6097A4235A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:50:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> Cc: Eliot Lear To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:51:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3A169B91-5C5A-4BD2-AA8B-9B6097A4235A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (one comment inline) > On 5 Nov 2021, at 17:56, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi Mike, >>=20 >> Thanks for your comments. Please see below for proposed = dispositions. For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something = is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to = incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion. Others = are of course free to disagree, in which case we'll put each matter on = the agenda. If you agree with the below, I'll open up issues = accordingly. >>=20 >>> Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition. This is = worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned. = Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in = Section 2 third para with: >>>=20 >>> "This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group = (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), = which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals." >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's = choice", then this isn't editorial. =20 >=20 > As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series = Working Group which produces policy proposals...." referring back to = "Policy definition governing the Series as a whole. Yes, there is the = follow on clause of "subject to", but the responsibility as written is = tied to the proposing, not to the proposing and approval. The latter is = correct. As written it is not. =20 >=20 > Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping = the last clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything = beginning with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated = diagramming sentences in English class? This is a recursive sentence = with two clauses, each of which modifies the section before it. In = other words, a three-level sentence. >=20 > The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC = Series as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes = policies, and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it = currently is. >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through = publication of/of the concepts described in/. Insert "Editorial" before = "Series". >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing = documents" either in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series. I = think this is a non-controversial change, but needs to be made whether = editorial or not. >>> Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/ >>>=20 >> Editorial > Yup. >>> Section 2, 3rd para change from above. Also, that first sentence is = a run on. >>>=20 >> Editorial >>=20 > See the first item - this needs to track that. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of = policy/. s/ultimate authority/direction/. Insert after "LLC)" "on = behalf of the community". >>>=20 >> Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108. >>=20 > Yes. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3, first para s/that are// There are also missing commas. = Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, " >>>=20 >> Editorial > Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of = the process and is not cited here and needs to be. >>> Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/ >>>=20 >> I'm not sure which instance you're referring to. >>=20 > Sorry - last sentence. The RSWG rough consensus is not the only = consideration, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense = of the community gleaned from the community last call that's important = here. RSWG members represent their own points of view, and taken = collectively may even be out of step with the broader community that = doesn't have the time to spend nit picking words and comments. = The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, but pay attention if the = community has issues the RSWG has decided do not merit their attention. >=20 > Probably related to #93, but more general >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." = place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to = dig through the piles of emails to try and find it. >>>=20 >> Currently that text reads: >>=20 >>=20 >>> Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be = delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum = of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, = only of the stream representatives enumerated above. >> This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting = the 3 month timer). >>=20 > This whole section could use tightening. I'll wait for the next = document, but I can live with the general idea here - even though in = this electronic society, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send = things around for a snail mail vote - 5 times. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6. I may have missed this, = but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing = the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB. DISCUSS. >>>=20 >> There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the = group. The one within the group occurs at (4). The one beyond the = group occurs at (6). Please note that this is covered in detail in = Section 3.2.3. Could you please be more specific as to what you want to = discuss? >>=20 > Sorry, the community last call. As I was reading this, I realized = we'd falling into cargo cult behavior. We had the RSAB do the community = last call because the IESG does the community last call. That makes = less sense here for a number of reasons. First, the RSAB and the RSWG = have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different = levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests = that the WG. Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded = down with other work - the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in = the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal with the processing = of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG = management which is not an RSAB task). Lastly, the RSWG is where the = motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing = the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, = gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary = lather rinse, repeat. The RSAB should be getting a document mostly = ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is = expected to be active in the RSWG. >=20 > So my suggestion here is to move the community last call = responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've = established the RSWG has met consensus. >=20 > This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of = work here is just wrong. >=20 I disagree. The RSAB members are representatives of their communities, = and the community last call is their last chance to ensure their full = communities get to give input. Leaving the community last call to the = RSWG chairs risks a very insular process.=20 >>> Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence =3D "only on grounds of = failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) = consensus? DISCUSS. >>>=20 >> This is, at least in part, Issue 93. Please see Martin's proposed = text. Again, please be more specific in what you want to discuss. >>=20 > Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the = community has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively = participating in the RSWG. The RSWG is *really* different from an IETF = WG or even an IRTF RG in that pretty much everything it does can affect = everyone. =20 >=20 > So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, = but not sufficient. There at least needs to be community buy-in or at = least grudging acceptance and that may not come until the community last = call, and may not actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a = proposal is particularly onerous. >=20 > This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 = has to acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the = only input into the RSAB's decision process. =20 >=20 > There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that = trumps even the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on = behalf of the community. This ties in with the other discussions such = as those from Mark wanting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what = we've agreed to. >=20 > The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without = pain. >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet. I think some language is = needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply = to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream = documents and the requisite contractual changes." >>>=20 >> In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial. I = propose that this change simply be adopted. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > Yes >>=20 >>> Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - = duplicative with "contract". >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > Yes >>> Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - = this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather = than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, = the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/ >>>=20 >> Not editorial.=20 >>=20 > Not editorial, but not really controversial. Refer to Jay for comment = prior to opening an issue? >>=20 >>> Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from = time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents = unless incorporated by reference. Suggest inserting "(as of = publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on = sentence. Referencing the current contract may also be useful here. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. This section can't be normative or directive because of = outside issues. I think that was always the intent, but maybe not = captured by the text. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence. Instead: "However, in the = interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best = see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a = more general policy." Basically, as written it implies the = RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed. >>>=20 >> This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed. >>=20 > This my text alternate to Martin's in #94. I don't think this is = necessarily an RSAB issue for all items. Basically the rule is that = decisions get reported to the RSAB/RSWG. The RSAB may poke its nose in = immediately, the RSWG will consider whether documents need to be = written. >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 4.6.1 Second para. There should be additional text here = requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft = prior to issuing it for proposal. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. This is implied by community input at the end of the second = para, but just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW = process. This is what the RSOC did for the iRSE. Refer to Jay for = comment before opening an issue? >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE = vs section 5.2. I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining = the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the = section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input = as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them. This document neuters = the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. =20 >>>=20 >> I am not sure what you are proposing. >>=20 > I'm not sure I am either! Given the RSCE responsibilities in 5.2, = I'd replace "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for = confidential input from the community in the form of a questionnaire on = specific RSCE responsibilities to the community". Let's at least try = and make this useful, rather than a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit = for things they aren't responsible for simply because they have RFC = Series in their title. Open an issue?=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the = RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the = RSCE function. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There are = too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not = want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around. = I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the = RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, = and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many = things they won't necessarily be good at. Given how few good technical = editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make = clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from = the RPC. Open an issue? >>=20 >> Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_3A169B91-5C5A-4BD2-AA8B-9B6097A4235A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii (one comment inline)

On 5 Nov 2021, at 17:56, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:

On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below for proposed dispositions.  For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion.  Others are of course free to disagree, in which case we'll put each matter on the agenda.  If you agree with the below, I'll open up issues accordingly.

Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition.   This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third para with:

"This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals."

Editorial.

If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's choice", then this isn't editorial. 

As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group which produces policy proposals...." referring back to "Policy definition governing the Series as a whole.   Yes, there is the follow on clause of "subject to", but the responsibility as written is tied to the proposing, not to the proposing and approval.  The latter is correct.  As written it is not. 

Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping the last clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything beginning with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated diagramming sentences in English class?  This is a recursive sentence with two clauses,  each of which modifies the section before it.  In other words, a three-level sentence.

The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC Series as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes policies, and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it currently is.


Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.  Insert "Editorial" before "Series".

Editorial.

Maybe.   The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing documents" either in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series.  I think this is a non-controversial change, but needs to be made whether editorial or not.

Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/

Editorial
Yup.

Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is a run on.

Editorial

See the first item - this needs to track that.



Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community".

Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108.

Yes.


Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, "

Editorial
Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of the process and is not cited here and needs to be.

Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/

I'm not sure which instance you're referring to.

Sorry - last sentence.  The RSWG rough consensus is not the only consideration, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense of the community gleaned from the community last call that's important here.  RSWG members represent their own points of view, and taken collectively may even be out of step with the broader community that doesn't have the time to spend nit picking words and comments.  The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, but pay attention if the community has issues the RSWG has decided do not merit their attention.

Probably related to #93, but more general


Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it.

Currently that text reads:


Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting the 3 month timer).

This whole section could use tightening.  I'll wait for the next document, but I can live with the general idea here - even though in this electronic society, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send things around for a snail mail vote - 5 times.


Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS.

There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The one beyond the group occurs at (6).  Please note that this is covered in detail in Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you want to discuss?

Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized we'd falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the community last call because the IESG does the community last call.  That makes less sense here for a number of reasons.  First, the RSAB and the RSWG have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests that the WG.  Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded down with other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal  with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task).  Lastly, the RSWG is where the motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG.

So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the RSWG has met consensus.

This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work here is just wrong.

I disagree. The RSAB members are representatives of their communities, and the community last call is their last chance to ensure their full communities get to give input. Leaving the community last call to the RSWG chairs risks a very insular process. 


Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence = "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS.

This is, at least in part, Issue 93.  Please see Martin's proposed text.  Again, please be more specific in what you want to discuss.

Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the community has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively participating in the RSWG.  The RSWG is *really* different from an IETF WG or even an IRTF RG in that pretty much everything it does can affect everyone. 

So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, but not sufficient.  There at least needs to be community buy-in or at least grudging acceptance and that may not come until the community last call, and may not actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a proposal is particularly onerous.

This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 has to acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the only input into the RSAB's decision process. 

There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that trumps even the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on behalf of the community.  This ties in with the other discussions such as those from Mark wanting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what we've agreed to.

The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without pain.


Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some language is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes."

In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial.  I propose that this change simply be adopted.


Yes

Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract".

Editorial.

Yes

Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/

Not editorial.

Not editorial, but not really controversial.  Refer to Jay for comment prior to opening an issue?

Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.  Suggest  inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence.  Referencing the current contract may also be useful here.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This section can't be normative or directive because of outside issues.  I think that was always the intent, but maybe not captured by the text.


Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "However, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."    Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed.

This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed.

This my text alternate to Martin's in #94.  I don't think this is necessarily an RSAB issue for all items.  Basically the rule is that decisions get reported to the RSAB/RSWG.  The RSAB may poke its nose in immediately, the RSWG will consider whether documents need to be written.



Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This is implied by community input at the end of the second para, but just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW process.  This is what the RSOC did for the iRSE.   Refer to Jay for comment before opening an issue?



Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. 

I am not sure what you are proposing.

I'm not sure I am either!   Given the RSCE responsibilities in 5.2, I'd replace "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for confidential input from the community in the form of a questionnaire on specific RSCE responsibilities to the community".    Let's at least try and make this useful, rather than a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit for things they aren't responsible for simply because they have RFC Series in their title.  Open an issue?



Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue?

Eliot


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--Apple-Mail=_3A169B91-5C5A-4BD2-AA8B-9B6097A4235A-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 13:01:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4933A0D43; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jWoEkjDNH7eh; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E0393A0D3B; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:01:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=9GPxlTJ6BT0cy9/ZJgLF6/0IkOaHm2vRVod/3LfmruE=; b=k6zYNV1PpsyjSreY1snn7rbknv jBbPUB7zZR03VC9K/YcRcbj37UIs2kwR2yJZe752igKxEReHteUXURaydpeLupH7Xuadi51vSN+mU P6a0eJ0qf8yvHIcQoIMlkv/ECToOpr9IpmQlIngWu+4zX32mKziw64hYCf7lt5pJ+QjlHrIlgz+Da GAesXbhK2XBneP9KDmwc8pirb7sS4dAIZuB6JhMjtgUsCxa9ezzH2Lqn7gIItZo4vJeiPHaTKWiCd wogaUQfqFgYbYma0W0rzhNzN0gxywzTEFKS1L0fAE1ZqfZSUj6q5nZheqqwX+HcANW4PKUpOrlTFt X1o1XGEw==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=39688 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mj5PH-0007G5-Nu; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:01:48 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:01:33 +0000 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:01:57 -0000 > On 22 Oct 2021, at 09:13, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Dear Colleagues, >=20 > This begins the two week last call on = draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1] This call will run through Friday, = 5 Nov 2021. Please send your comments to this mailing list. We will = address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of = course on list). I=E2=80=99ve re-read this draft, and while I still have some concerns, I = can live with the content. Some comments below, many but not all of = which are editorial. Apologies if these overlap with previous comments.=20 Near the end of Section 1: > In this model, documents are produced and approved through multiple > document streams. The stream manager for each stream is = responsible > for the content of that stream. The RFC Editor function is > responsible for the packaging and distribution of the documents. = As > such, documents from these streams are edited and published by the > Production Center. Is =E2=80=9CRFC Editor function=E2=80=9D intended here? I thought that = was replaced? Also, the =E2=80=9CAs such=E2=80=9D confuses and seems unnecessary. Section 2, 2nd paragraph: > By contrast, version 3 of the RFC Editor Model, specified here, > provides a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some > respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or = IRTF) The IRTF lacks the explicit requirement for consensus that exists in = IETF, so it might be clearer to just use the IETF as the example here. Section 3, 1st paragraph: > Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the = open > through proposals that are generated by and discussed within the = RFC > Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC Series > Approval Board (RSAB). The phrase =E2=80=9Cdefined in the open=E2=80=9D could be clearer. Maybe = =E2=80=9Cdefined through open and public discussion=E2=80=9D or similar? =E2=80=9Cgenerated by..the RSWG=E2=80=9D - implies that proposals can = only be generated by the group, but we also want to allow proposals to = originate elsewhere and submitted to the RSWG for discussion. Section 3.1.1:=20 > The intent is that > the RSWG operate in a way similar to working groups in the IETF and > research groups in the IRTF. Therefore, all RSWG meetings shall be > open to any participant, The combination of these can be read as open to any participant in the = IETF and IRTF. Perhaps =E2=80=9CAll RSWG meeting shall be open to all = interested persons=E2=80=9D to match the later text? > All interested persons are welcome to participate in the RSWG > (subject to anti-harassment policies as described below). This > includes participants in the IETF and IRTF, IAB and IESG members, > ... =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6this includes, but is not limited to, participants = in=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D Section 3.1.2:=20 > The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for > appointing RSAB members... In cases where the IRTF Chair or ISE appoints a delegate, this section = uses the term "appointing body=E2=80=9D to refer to both the IRTF = Chair/ISE, as the appointing body for the RSAB delegate, and to the IAB = as appointing body for the IRTF Chair/ISE, within a single paragraph. = This may cause confusion. > Whenever a new stream is created, Implies that new streams will be created. It should perhaps be =E2=80=9CIf= a new stream is created=E2=80=9D. > The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using = a > method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during = the > chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its > members. Is it possible for the RSAB chair to step down from the chair role, but = remain on the RSAB as a stream representative?=20 If the RSAB chair position is vacated because the representative steps = down from the RSAB, is there a requirement that the RSAB wait for their = replacement to be appointed before selecting a new chair? Section 3.2.2: > 1. An individual participant in the RSWG generates a proposal in = the > form of an Internet-Draft, which is submitted in full = conformance Should specify where it is submitted. =E2=80=9CAn individual participant=E2=80=9D - unclear if this is = intended to exclude the RSAB members and RSWG chairs, or if they are = allowed to submit as individuals but not as holders of those roles. I = assume the latter is intended, but the draft should be clarified. Bullet 3 in Section 3.2.2 explicitly calls out that the RSWG chairs are = also expected to participate as individuals. Given that, it would be = useful to also highlight here that RSAB members are also expected to = participate as individuals. > 5. After a comment period of suitable length, the RSWG chairs will > determine whether rough consensus for the proposal exists...=20 Are the RSWG chairs expected to publicly announce the outcome of the = last call?=20 > 6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue = a > community call for comments as further described below. If > substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again > consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At > this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal. The =E2=80=9CIf substantial comments have been received=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D = text is unclear. Should it be =E2=80=9CIf substantial comments are = received in response to the community call for comments, the RSAB may = return the draft to the RSWG to consider those comments and make = revisions as they see fit=E2=80=9D?=20 =E2=80=9CAt this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal=E2=80= =9D - at which time? Unclear if this is while the community call for = comments is ongoing, while the RSWG is revising the draft, or after the = community call for comments has concluded and any revisions have been = made. > 8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will > submit the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration. This seems that it should happen before step 6, to trigger the RSAB to = look at the document and issue the community call for comments.=20 Step 8 would seem better phrased as the RSWG chairs confirming that that = believe comments have been addressed and the document is ready for RSAB = ballot. > A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons: >=20 > * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or = group > that a particular member represents. Is an RSAB member permitted to file a CONCERN ballot if they believe a = proposal represents a serious problem for one of the other streams? = I=E2=80=99d expect that such issues would be resolved by discussion = between the RSAB members leading to the representative for the stream = concerned raising a CONCERN, but what happens if there is disagreement = amongst the RSAB members? > Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions > within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a > surprise to the RSWG. I agree with the intent, but the phrasing allows for bad-faith = accusations of surprise. Perhaps something like "RSAB members are = expected to participate in the discussions within the RSWG, and raise = any concerns and issues during those discussions; accordingly, no = position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise to the RSWG=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s possible that an RSAB member will be made aware of an issue = late in the process that would lead to them issuing a CONCERN. It=E2=80=99= s obviously desirable if concerns are raised early, but that can=E2=80=99t= be guaranteed. An RSAB member needs to be able to raise a late CONCERN = (i.e., concern ballots =E2=80=9CSHOULD NOT=E2=80=9D come as a surprise, = not =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=9D come as a surprise). It would be useful = to clarify that there are sometimes legitimate cases where a CONCERN may = be a surprise, although this should be rare. > 1. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the = RSWG. > Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate. >=20 > 2. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If > substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN > positions, an additional call for community input might be > needed. Agree with the intent, but would have expected the second sentence of = point 2 to be included in point 1. Also, =E2=80=9Chave been made=E2=80=9D -> =E2=80=9Care made" > 3. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions > remain, a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting > members vote YES, the proposal is approved. I=E2=80=99m not entirely happy with this, but accept the consensus. = However, we also allow for additional streams to be created with their = own voting members. If that happens, does this threshold change? It = would seem that it should. > Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. The > RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities that = may > be interested in or impacted by a proposal as they see fit, = following > policies for those communities as appropriate. Should this also say that: "RSAB members should distribute notice of the = call for comments to the communities they represent=E2=80=9D? > The IETF anti-harassment policy > (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment- > policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB, I agree that the policy should apply, but the linked IESG statement and = RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need updating to explicitly include = the RSWG? Section 4.1:=20 > * The general roles and responsibilities of the RPC are defined by > RFCs published in the Editorial Stream (i.e., not directly by = the > RSWG, RSAB, or RSCE). Needs clarification: changes to the roles and responsibilities of the = RPC will be defined in this way. The existing roles and responsibilities = remain and are not defined by Editorial stream RFCs (since, at present, = there is no editorial stream). > The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the > engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over > negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has > responsibility for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The > IETF LLC is empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a = committee > to complete these activities. Are there any constraints on who the LLC can appoint or on the = membership of the committee they may convene? Performance targets can be = a contentious issue. > 4.2. Implementation-Specific Policies This section seems perhaps under-specified. Based on past history, I = expect the RPC will no something reasonable, but the boundaries of its = authority to set policy are not well defined here. Section 4.4, 1st paragraph: "IRSG research group chair=E2=80=9D -> = =E2=80=9CIRTF research group chair=E2=80=9D Section 5.2: > Periodically, the IETF LLC will evaluate the performance of the = RSCE, > including a call for confidential input from the community. The = IETF > LLC will produce a draft performance evaluation for the RSAB (not Might be clearer as =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6will produce a draft evaluation of = the RSCE=E2=80=99s performance for review by the RSAB=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > 6. Editorial Stream I still think this section needs to be explicit that Experimental RFCs = cannot be published on the Editorial stream, rather than leaving it = implied. > Appendix A. Changes from Version 2 of the RFC Editor Model The content of the Appendix is fine, modulo the nits below, but I would = like to see it moved to a main section of the document to make it clear = that its contents are as normative as those in the rest of the document. > A.5. RFC Series Oversight Committee (RSOC) The phrasing in this section is imprecise: =E2=80=9Cabolishes=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Cdisbands=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cdisestablishes=E2=80=9D would be = clearer. > A.6. RFC Series Advisory Group (RSAG) "For the avoidance of doubt, this document affirms that the RSAG is = obsolete and its charter is no longer in force=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 there = seems a strange reluctance to be explicit here: the RSAB has been = abolished and no longer exists. Cheers, Colin --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Nov 5 13:07:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A1D3A0D68 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFQw8IeX_qPF for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf30.google.com (mail-qv1-xf30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DDBA3A0D64 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf30.google.com with SMTP id s9so7981855qvk.12 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fYxjeTEPaocO/ot7zxoFty1L0MdEH8w/wknCmowz12Q=; b=sbMs0bXt7V10NXkWWwYsHeYKI9vUIBG7hvcewXMUdxHTgg11j3ZTQqlJcySsU1egkD JhYF+psm/JrVSGLC49f9TiJcTP9JD9wS+sBOwL/1ldMYi9pv+F3sTcXZDySmg9rf4npl SwYAZoeDz+jlA0E/iHSkADCiKAM4aIiSpMdwPq7pbmXiUe0WDZ0Z8Y8dkCFvp1Oiq/Vj nLiY9TvymkT7kvFTN+AerTiAarOZymgcs724ZP+IONHSf9LIe12vgI1zsOJdueShWg8I zLQcYN6yhSYCBZzmmBv+2btBInxyKDYEKgaDEdzT1/lcw4TNZ8FNTYj5QI4oF46uzhcd SshA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fYxjeTEPaocO/ot7zxoFty1L0MdEH8w/wknCmowz12Q=; b=mt13sgPEQlXDxCbDJV+uLAVNIpuVRnh8TUQ7N56ZNI089/VfCUQMHmsJUdQerRcelS 2YuoeHzuK4Erez8iW7Pb4Fe0++w+ffKqGSStH+2zdx06o/kIlh9nARAL+ytJcaDG1WYi ROBkSi6NzJsBqSlo5y8bNC7U1h+LySiinL0sKHQ9YVvxtyES2DyMBQuRistr0+7l78mN Wgw22NCoi+Gqygy/V726dYEJPLhg8j+QFsrj6sfigCDZpgVoLDnWi7KeTS+OQz5+X5/l pN2f2zECatQN8QyL9OwCnhQ/s7A5kP/n10lb8LwUAXf6nda36HWcNiEU86VaTOaCEy1v /EIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300NfqH3/AObHstRmQInrfiRC+TtO5nR2MrLzuRoROLw6Ysb3pg gS+okvxGGoH47KBbDU2gLO++2OouIfR1lVMQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJySi+onnbhSjqoBo+mU5zkfnhAz6unAa2a9E9ONPEu+C1xNdL7WaxD66IOHMYW/feAAwR4cgQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:27ca:: with SMTP id ge10mr9600222qvb.46.1636142870759; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v21sm2915044qkg.51.2021.11.05.13.07.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:07:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:07:56 -0000 On 11/5/2021 3:50 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, >>>> but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for >>>> doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS. >>>> >>> There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the >>> group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The one beyond the >>> group occurs at (6). Please note that this is covered in detail in >>> Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you >>> want to discuss? >>> >> Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized >> we'd falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the >> community last call because the IESG does the community last call.  >> That makes less sense here for a number of reasons.  First, the RSAB >> and the RSWG have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly >> different levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain >> of interests that the WG. Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've >> already loaded down with other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as >> assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal  >> with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related >> functionality (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task).  >> Lastly, the RSWG is where the motivation is designed to come from, so >> they should be the ones doing the donkey work of putting the document >> out for public comment, gathering the responses, resolving them in >> the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The RSAB should be >> getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially given the >> requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG. >> >> So my suggestion here is to move the community last call >> responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've >> established the RSWG has met consensus. >> >> This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of >> work here is just wrong. >> > I disagree. The RSAB members are representatives of their communities, > and the community last call is their last chance to ensure their full > communities get to give input. Leaving the community last call to the > RSWG chairs risks a very insular process. > Hi Colin - Unless I'm really confused, the information the RSAB will receive in both instances is pretty much the same.  All I'm suggesting in that the mechanics of the last call - issuing it to all of the identified communities, gathering comments in a parseable format, running the discussion in the RSWG (including RSAB input), and updating the document to resolve things according to the discussion be driven by the RSWG chairs instead of one of the RSAB members already working 75% time on IESG or IAB or IRTF issues. As I said, not a line I'm drawing, but it seems the wrong way to divide the work. Mike From nobody Fri Nov 5 13:52:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A963A0E1F for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lqd6mslLBo1p for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ADCC3A0E1E for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:52:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=ZBErJd4XwK6MUUQZFhW0QwPg2hIkHeQmScixiM6BBO8=; b=gpTaiZy6EVl3TpZzisdFSkvFvi 9G0BH11xMsfnCeNRpeUZrXCkmeBpwvuBsnxLhuNGqIRuBeKqMcQiwKjcpEzpKWk6F5miFDCYEwXKi 0pqrWRFhNeiUTZmXkv16J47yvtWZ749eUxMvkTteaa6EdGDKI6rB4yJUNNx70nYyVREIo70AEGIxy r5h9p23anzASPUycOr/Z0u86MGduJueIjR+5I6GZx+60osJk5/km3TU268bTMHfrE7CU7JfJOGyjA kKbZ8J3cbH6lYb0UDV7PIGL+ojIAlbDJjavebhEdmD0V2i5OG6+8zZIuklZGcANEkAQRSZCCbX86Q sq3W9eYQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=39108 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mj6CQ-0003mv-BA; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:52:38 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:52:32 +0000 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:52:51 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2021, at 20:07, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 11/5/2021 3:50 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6. I may have missed this, = but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing = the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB. DISCUSS. >>>>>=20 >>>> There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the = group. The one within the group occurs at (4). The one beyond the = group occurs at (6). Please note that this is covered in detail in = Section 3.2.3. Could you please be more specific as to what you want to = discuss? >>>>=20 >>> Sorry, the community last call. As I was reading this, I realized = we'd falling into cargo cult behavior. We had the RSAB do the community = last call because the IESG does the community last call. That makes = less sense here for a number of reasons. First, the RSAB and the RSWG = have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different = levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests = that the WG. Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded = down with other work - the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in = the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal with the processing = of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG = management which is not an RSAB task). Lastly, the RSWG is where the = motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing = the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, = gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary = lather rinse, repeat. The RSAB should be getting a document mostly = ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is = expected to be active in the RSWG. >>>=20 >>> So my suggestion here is to move the community last call = responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've = established the RSWG has met consensus. >>>=20 >>> This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of = work here is just wrong. >>>=20 >> I disagree. The RSAB members are representatives of their = communities, and the community last call is their last chance to ensure = their full communities get to give input. Leaving the community last = call to the RSWG chairs risks a very insular process. >>=20 >=20 > Hi Colin - >=20 > Unless I'm really confused, the information the RSAB will receive in = both instances is pretty much the same. All I'm suggesting in that the = mechanics of the last call - issuing it to all of the identified = communities, gathering comments in a parseable format, running the = discussion in the RSWG (including RSAB input), and updating the document = to resolve things according to the discussion be driven by the RSWG = chairs instead of one of the RSAB members already working 75% time on = IESG or IAB or IRTF issues. As I said, not a line I'm drawing, but it = seems the wrong way to divide the work. RSAB members are more incentivised to consult their respective = communities than the RSWG chairs. If everything is working well, the = results should be the same. But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB = members have more an incentive to seek feedback more widely. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Nov 5 14:08:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9253A0EB6 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QBW9VLsojanF for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1B6C3A0EBA for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id n15so9890853qkp.12 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:08:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VAieSOs49mxnp1fhh80JQjPPb/ZSxweEWkj6g+9aEsg=; b=QTx6FH2InZ1Xp9+CG+MK8EJ7dMOcCzRXNCOI2MkCZdIfUMnlSkrCVnkapHGacnQ23x SmuwVofTN9UJKBXTiXyVBr8e12wnoiiIn3YNcM0JlWQfFMlebGaUX3dUDrp13QXqJzlS GkLBSyBd8EEcjDDuCuzxNPgGnXzVwjrek8t1s4mZifAqB/4HsP3dtZeIGrHQawPlzbsd D1gqIJSYTPo3b0lwSfsFVHKI3Ys7dqOh8AFW9F48Yug4k71yJyY6f1C3cKTmjFKcU0ja 8uqhThdqRhqJTN68X+mfxkm3VINZFej27qn1wD6tTihzCjXAkPx3qjndw2v48RaCKxSW SdCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VAieSOs49mxnp1fhh80JQjPPb/ZSxweEWkj6g+9aEsg=; b=DTuoM9/3ebmGHROE/bY6BBQVUtVdxZJ8MxQRKQeL9zoXK98yyFbEcjFY+dLO5107wO KjULnA7JeEAfOlRrpLpjsxh4pYm/k9wBf4B9LKWb6DC25uugc/kTBHBq8EI6TCnzxzLR 93iC1Qz38KjD2a9p76LEQvVtq/b9zUe3I6xtvhn+MS5aK8V6/VarHurg2y3AVIQ72MTo A0khsHSGIzYNSmgTc4fgazfywL6TI2G17ZR3jwHmdTWvpcMGFD/2zRWIvx6bgd/OMZ5i mHGBRaaptoAiuxrie/t8VhdVn0cvDoMs7rEeLl0lBLV/hO8FF7r1IrvDn3mS05ZVbi3R l3tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530IZndmSF66AZ3tMTWNwJUkqzA1amGuV1Us6Q3LJqQJQISDUaMY zqLCOBIVl32MmFT3ilbmSpJKCg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz3fM6pLsyvRJbPgVmAr/VVSZ1uNN6YewHHVUskTmLh1FyJckXEk76oA6dBMOFKYyV9Fu5erg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:65d8:: with SMTP id z207mr9841351qkb.317.1636146517922; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l10sm6631525qtx.10.2021.11.05.14.08.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:08:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:08:45 -0000 On 11/5/2021 4:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB members have more an incentive to seek feedback more widely. This is where I'm not getting you.  Community last calls go to the community regardless of who issues the calls.  I would expect there will be one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from the RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty automatic.  I expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in addition to reviewing community feedback and the RSWG response for sufficiency. Or? Mike From nobody Fri Nov 5 14:21:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE4A3A0F61 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0jZflAlp7R5 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6768E3A0F5E for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457EA4B0DE39; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SC_P2C6qCAPo; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9F2F4B0DE32; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C6A5F569-7AB2-408F-A258-38B7A55071D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:21:21 +1300 Message-Id: <97379D54-F9DE-4107-A863-809527C7CDBF@ietf.org> References: <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:21:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C6A5F569-7AB2-408F-A258-38B7A55071D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 6/11/2021, at 6:56 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi Mike, >>=20 >> Thanks for your comments. Please see below for proposed dispositions. Fo= r conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something is editorial, my sugge= stion is that it be left to the editor to incorporate as he deems appropriat= e, without further discussion. Others are of course free to disagree, in wh= ich case we'll put each matter on the agenda. If you agree with the below, I= 'll open up issues accordingly. >>=20 >>> Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition. This is worded= in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned. Instead r= eplace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third= para with: >>>=20 >>> "This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG),= which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which eval= uates and approves or rejects such proposals." >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's choi= ce", then this isn't editorial. =20 >=20 > As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series Working G= roup which produces policy proposals...." referring back to "Policy definiti= on governing the Series as a whole. Yes, there is the follow on clause of "= subject to", but the responsibility as written is tied to the proposing, not= to the proposing and approval. The latter is correct. As written it is no= t. =20 >=20 > Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping the l= ast clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything beginnin= g with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated diagramming sen= tences in English class? This is a recursive sentence with two clauses, ea= ch of which modifies the section before it. In other words, a three-level s= entence. >=20 > The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC Serie= s as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes policies= , and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it currently is. >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publi= cation of/of the concepts described in/. Insert "Editorial" before "Series"= . >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing documents" ei= ther in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series. I think this is a non-c= ontroversial change, but needs to be made whether editorial or not. >>> Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/ >>>=20 >> Editorial > Yup. >>> Section 2, 3rd para change from above. Also, that first sentence is a r= un on. >>>=20 >> Editorial >>=20 > See the first item - this needs to track that. >>=20 >>> Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/. = s/ultimate authority/direction/. Insert after "LLC)" "on behalf of the com= munity". >>>=20 >> Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108. >>=20 > Yes. >>=20 >>> Section 3, first para s/that are// There are also missing commas. Ins= ert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last call, " >>>=20 >> Editorial > Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of the p= rocess and is not cited here and needs to be. >>> Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/ >>>=20 >> I'm not sure which instance you're referring to. >>=20 > Sorry - last sentence. The RSWG rough consensus is not the only considera= tion, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense of the commun= ity gleaned from the community last call that's important here. RSWG member= s represent their own points of view, and taken collectively may even be out= of step with the broader community that doesn't have the time to spend nit p= icking words and comments. The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, b= ut pay attention if the community has issues the RSWG has decided do not mer= it their attention. >=20 > Probably related to #93, but more general >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." pla= ce holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig throu= gh the piles of emails to try and find it. >>>=20 >> Currently that text reads: >>=20 >>> Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be del= ayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum of 3 m= onths; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, only of the= stream representatives enumerated above. >> This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting the= 3 month timer). >>=20 > This whole section could use tightening. I'll wait for the next document,= but I can live with the general idea here - even though in this electronic s= ociety, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send things around for a snai= l mail vote - 5 times. >>=20 >>> Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6. I may have missed this, but I t= hought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of r= esolving the questions, not the RSAB. DISCUSS. >>>=20 >> There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the group. = The one within the group occurs at (4). The one beyond the group occurs at= (6). Please note that this is covered in detail in Section 3.2.3. Could y= ou please be more specific as to what you want to discuss? >>=20 > Sorry, the community last call. As I was reading this, I realized we'd fa= lling into cargo cult behavior. We had the RSAB do the community last call b= ecause the IESG does the community last call. That makes less sense here fo= r a number of reasons. First, the RSAB and the RSWG have exactly the same d= omain of interests, but slightly different levers, but in the IETF the IESG h= as a much broader domain of interests that the WG. Second, the RSAB consist= s of folks we've already loaded down with other work - the RSAB is "other d= uties as assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to dea= l with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related functionali= ty (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task). Lastly, the RSWG is wher= e the motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing t= he donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the= responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.= The RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially g= iven the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG. >=20 > So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility to= the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the RSWG ha= s met consensus. >=20 > This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work he= re is just wrong. >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence =3D "only on grounds of failure..= ." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus? DI= SCUSS. >>>=20 >> This is, at least in part, Issue 93. Please see Martin's proposed text. = Again, please be more specific in what you want to discuss. >>=20 > Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the community= has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively participating in th= e RSWG. The RSWG is *really* different from an IETF WG or even an IRTF RG i= n that pretty much everything it does can affect everyone. =20 >=20 > So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, but no= t sufficient. There at least needs to be community buy-in or at least grudg= ing acceptance and that may not come until the community last call, and may n= ot actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a proposal is particu= larly onerous. >=20 > This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 has t= o acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the only inpu= t into the RSAB's decision process. =20 >=20 > There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that trumps e= ven the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on behalf of the co= mmunity. This ties in with the other discussions such as those from Mark wa= nting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what we've agreed to. >=20 > The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without pai= n. >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet. I think some language is needed h= ere such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC an= d which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the r= equisite contractual changes." >>>=20 >> In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial. I propose t= hat this change simply be adopted. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > Yes >>> Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative= with "contract". >>>=20 >> Editorial. >>=20 > Yes >>> Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this= is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the g= eneric LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a= POC designated by the LLC board to look into/ >>>=20 >> Not editorial.=20 >>=20 > Not editorial, but not really controversial. Refer to Jay for comment pri= or to opening an issue? It would be better to name a role yes and this should be my role, the ED, be= cause thats the role with day-to-day responsibility here and so that the LLC= Board can be the escalation step if someone is concerned that the ED has fa= iled to act. >>> Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time= to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless in= corporated by reference. Suggest inserting "(as of publication)" after "re= sponsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence. Referencing the c= urrent contract may also be useful here. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. This section can't be normative or directive because of outside is= sues. I think that was always the intent, but maybe not captured by the tex= t. >>=20 >>> Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence. Instead: "However, in the int= erest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit w= hile the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general po= licy." Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and tha= t is not guaranteed. >>>=20 >> This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed. >>=20 > This my text alternate to Martin's in #94. I don't think this is necessar= ily an RSAB issue for all items. Basically the rule is that decisions get r= eported to the RSAB/RSWG. The RSAB may poke its nose in immediately, the RS= WG will consider whether documents need to be written. >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> Section 4.6.1 Second para. There should be additional text here requiri= ng the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to i= ssuing it for proposal. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Maybe. This is implied by community input at the end of the second para, b= ut just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW process. T= his is what the RSOC did for the iRSE. Refer to Jay for comment before ope= ning an issue? >=20 Yes that would be good and in line with the LLC=E2=80=99s expected way of wo= rking.=20 >=20 >>> Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs se= ction 5.2. I've pretty much lost the argument about constraining the RSCE i= nto such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm no= t sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be vir= tually invisible to them. This document neuters the RSCE to the point where= their only real customer is the RPC. =20 >>>=20 >> I am not sure what you are proposing. >>=20 > I'm not sure I am either! Given the RSCE responsibilities in 5.2, I'd re= place "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for confidential input fr= om the community in the form of a questionnaire on specific RSCE responsibil= ities to the community". Let's at least try and make this useful, rather t= han a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit for things they aren't responsible= for simply because they have RFC Series in their title. Open an issue?=20 >>=20 >>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC f= rom contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE funct= ion. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There are too few people= that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full t= ime person for some of the tasks we've moved around. I'd prefer making it e= xplicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for t= he RSCE. >>>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 > Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I= have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they wo= n't necessarily be good at. Given how few good technical editor/publisher c= andidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shou= ldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC. Open an issue? I can=E2=80=99t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC an= d RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn=E2=80=99t allow f= or any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend independently so if the RPC= wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subc= ontract with them directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to a= dd a SoW to the RSCE contract. Maybe there might be a situation where the R= PC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill b= ut that still wouldn=E2=80=99t be a COI.=20 Ultimately I don=E2=80=99t mind such text being added but perhaps more subtl= y than mentioning a COI - =E2=80=9CNothing here should prevent the RPC from s= ubcontracting the RSCE=E2=80=9D Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >> Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail-C6A5F569-7AB2-408F-A258-38B7A55071D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 6/11/2021, at 6:56 AM, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com&= gt; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20
On 11/5/2021 4:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments.  Please see below for proposed dispositions.  For conciseness, if I indicate that I believe something is editorial, my suggestion is that it be left to the editor to incorporate as he deems appropriate, without further discussion.  Others are of course free to disagree, in which case we'll put each matter on the agenda.  If you agree with th= e below, I'll open up issues accordingly.

Section 1, numbered item 1 beginning Policy definition. &nbs= p; This is worded in a way that implies more authority to the RSWG than is planned.  Instead replace the second sentence here (and the similar language in Section 2 third para with:

"This is the responsibility of both the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which proposes policy, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which evaluates and approves or rejects such proposals."

Editorial.

If Editorial means "same meaning, different way of saying it, Peter's choice", then this isn't editorial. 

As written it says "This is the responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group which produces policy proposals...." referring back to "Policy definition governing the Series as a whole.   Yes= , there is the follow on clause of "subject to", but the responsibility as written is tied to the proposing, not to the proposing and approval.  The latter is correct.  As written i= t is not. 

Try it this way: Read the sentence as a whole, then read it dropping the last clause beginning "that", then read it again dropping everything beginning with "which". What do you see? Remember how much you hated diagramming sentences in English class?  This is a recursive sentence with two clauses,  each= of which modifies the section before it.  In other words, a three-level sentence.

The meaning has to be closer to "Policy definition governing the RFC Series as a whole is the joint responsibility of the RSWG which proposes policies, and the RSAB which evaluates and approves them." than it currently is.


Section 1, numbered item 2 top of page 4 first sentence: s/through publication of/of the concepts described in/.  Insert "Editorial" before "Series".

Editorial.

Maybe.   The RPC is not "implementing policy" by "publishing documents" either in the RFC series or the Editorial sub-series.  I= think this is a non-controversial change, but needs to be made whether editorial or not.

Following para s/documents are produced/RFCs are produced/

Editorial
Yup.

Section 2, 3rd para change from above.  Also, that first sentence is a run on.

Editorial

See the first item - this needs to track that.


Section 2, 4th para s/Policy implementation/Implementation of policy/.   s/ultimate authority/direction/.  Insert= after "LLC)" "on behalf of the community".

Not editorial, but a response to Issue 108.

Yes.


Section 3, first para s/that are//  There are also missing commas.   Insert after (RSWG) - ", pass a community last= call, "

Editorial
Maybe, but non controversial, but the community last call is part of the process and is not cited here and needs to be.

Section 3.1.2 first para - s/RSWG/RSWG and the community last call/

I'm not sure which instance you're referring to.

Sorry - last sentence.  The RSWG rough consensus is not the only= consideration, it's both the rough consensus of the RSWG, and the sense of the community gleaned from the community last call that's important here.  RSWG members represent their own points of view,= and taken collectively may even be out of step with the broader community that doesn't have the time to spend nit picking words and comments.  The RSAB needs to honor not just the RSWG POV, but= pay attention if the community has issues the RSWG has decided do not merit their attention.

Probably related to #93, but more general


Section 3.1.2 top of page 8 bullet beginning "Voting on approval..." place holder as I haven't seen the last text here and I don't want to dig through the piles of emails to try and find it.

Currently that text reads:

Voting on approval of policy documents produced by the RSWG shall be delayed until the vacancy or vacancies have been filled, up to a maximum of 3 months; this clause does not apply to a vacancy of the RSCE role, only of the stream representatives enumerated above.

This is subject to change based on the outcome of Issue 97 (resetting the 3 month timer).

This whole section could use tightening.  I'll wait for the next document, but I can live with the general idea here - even though in this electronic society, 3 months is pretty much enough time to send things around for a snail mail vote - 5 times.


Section 3.2.2 page 10 numbered bullet 6.  I may have missed this, but I thought the RSWG was responsible for the last call and for doing the work of resolving the questions, not the RSAB.   DISCUSS.

There are two last calls; one within the group and one beyond the group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The o= ne beyond the group occurs at (6).  Please note that this is covered in detail in Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you want to discuss?

Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized we'd falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the community last call because the IESG does the community last call.  That makes less sense here for a number of reasons.&n= bsp; First, the RSAB and the RSWG have exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different levers, but in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests that the WG.  Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded down with other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in the IETF the IESG is selected specifically to deal  with the processing of a broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG management which is not an RSAB task).  Lastly, the RSWG is where= the motivation is designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing the donkey work of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the responses, resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially given the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG.

So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the RSWG has met consensus.

This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work here is just wrong.


Section 3.2.4 - 1st para, 2nd sentence =3D "only on grounds of failure..." - how about on a disagreement on community (not just RSWG) consensus?  DISCUSS.

This is, at least in part, Issue 93.  Please see Martin's proposed text.  Again, please be more specific in what you want= to discuss.

Basically, the RSAB shouldn't be rubber stamping the RSWG if the community has other idea, even if the "community" wasn't actively participating in the RSWG.  The RSWG is *really* different from a= n IETF WG or even an IRTF RG in that pretty much everything it does can affect everyone. 

So the proposal is to acknowledge that RSWG consensus is necessary, but not sufficient.  There at least needs to be community buy-in or at least grudging acceptance and that may not come until the community last call, and may not actually be reached even after RSWG re-shuffling if a proposal is particularly onerous.

This isn't easily captured inside of #93 but the text to resolve #93 has to acknowledge that the RSWG consensus (and the document) isn't the only input into the RSAB's decision process. 

There's tension here that we need to resolve between an RSWG that trumps even the community, or an RSWG that tries at least to act on behalf of the community.  This ties in with the other discussions such as those from Mark wanting to expand the remit of the RSWG way past what we've agreed to.

The text fix here may be simple, but getting there will not be without pain.


Section 4.1, 2nd para, first bullet.   I think some lan= guage is needed here such as insert at end: "or by such legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been superceded by Editorial stream documents and the requisite contractual changes."

In my view, this is not editorial but also not controversial.  I propose that this change simply be adopted.


Yes

Section 4.1, 2nd para, last bullet, delete "contractually" - duplicative with "contract".

Editorial.

Yes

Section 4.1, para at top of page 14 beginning "If individuals..." - this is one of the few places that we need specific individuals rather than the generic LLC so: s/the IETF LLC look into/the IETF LLC board, the IETF ED or a POC designated by the LLC board to look into/

Not editorial.

Not editorial, but not really controversial.  Refer to Jay for comment prior to opening an issue?

= It would be better to name a role yes and this should be my role, the ED, be= cause thats the role with day-to-day responsibility here and so that the LLC= Board can be the escalation step if someone is concerned that the ED has fa= iled to act.

Section 4.3 - first para: The RPC responsibilities will change from time to time and are specified by the contract, not by these documents unless incorporated by reference.  Suggest  inserting "(as of publication)" after "responsibilities" near the end of that long run on sentence. = ; Referencing the current contract may also be useful here.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This section can't be normative or directive because of outside issues.  I think that was always the intent, but maybe not captured by the text.


Section 4.4, third bullet last sentence.  Instead:  "Ho= wever, in the interest of time, the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG considers whether there is a need to propose a more general policy."  &nbs= p; Basically, as written it implies the RSWG will take action and that is not guaranteed.

This is covered by Issues 93 and 94, to be discussed.

This my text alternate to Martin's in #94.  I don't think this i= s necessarily an RSAB issue for all items.  Basically the rule is that decisions get reported to the RSAB/RSWG.  The RSAB may poke its nose in immediately, the RSWG will consider whether documents need to be written.



Section 4.6.1 Second para.  There should be additional text here requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that draft prior to issuing it for proposal.

Not editorial.

Maybe.  This is implied by community input at the end of the second para, but just clarifies what a concrete example of that is for the SOW process.  This is what the RSOC did for the iRSE.&nbs= p;  Refer to Jay for comment before opening an issue?

Yes that would be good and in line with the LLC=E2=80=99s expected wa= y of working. 


Section 5, the bullets describing the responsibilities of the RSCE vs section 5.2.  I've pretty much lost the argument abou= t constraining the RSCE into such a side role, but comparing these bullets to the section 5.2, I'm not sure I see the point of soliciting community input as the RSCE will be virtually invisible to them.  This document neuters the RSCE to the point where their only real customer is the RPC. 

I am not sure what you are proposing.

I'm not sure I am either!   Given the RSCE responsibilities in= 5.2, I'd replace "...a call for ...community" with "...a call for confidential input from the community in the form of a questionnaire on specific RSCE responsibilities to the community".    Let's a= t least try and make this useful, rather than a blank sheet where the RSCE gets hit for things they aren't responsible for simply because they have RFC Series in their title.  Open an issue?


Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be= disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might wan= t to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue?

I can=E2=80=99t see on what basis a COI w= ould be imposed and both the RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The R= PC contract doesn=E2=80=99t allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC t= o spend independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted w= ork then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but rather neg= otiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE contract.  May= be there might be a situation where the RPC has a staff shortage and wants t= o directly contract the RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn=E2=80=99t be a= COI. 

Ultimately I don=E2=80=99t mind such te= xt being added but perhaps more subtly than mentioning a COI - =E2=80=9CNoth= ing here should prevent the RPC from subcontracting the RSCE=E2=80=9D
<= div>
Jay

-- Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director 
exec-director@ietf.= org

Eliot


=20 --
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu= re
= --Apple-Mail-C6A5F569-7AB2-408F-A258-38B7A55071D7-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 14:30:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC773A0FD9; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pK3W9wJbbpi0; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC1B3A0FD8; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a10c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.161.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HmDF24VNsz2xKV; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:30:14 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:30:14 +0100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 657840614.13477-ba3d118c763bfe71464c552bb41bacaa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:30:22 -0000 TIL a new word: guidelie. Goes into my preferred active vocabulary right away=E2=80=A6 (Other nits below.) I can=E2=80=99t say I am happy with this document, but I may have to = accept it as the best that could be achieved at this point. "The RSCE provides expert advice to the RPC and RSAB on how to implement = established policies=E2=80=9D. I would like to make explicit that it is = very much the job of the RSCE to watch the actual impact of these = policies and to make proposals to remedy any shortcomings and to create = continuous improvement, out of actively observing both = creation/production and reception. Others have already commented on the strangely passive role afforded to = the RSCE by this document (5: =E2=80=9Cif requested=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cbe = consulted=E2=80=9D), which needs to be fixed. Also, it looks like the = power of the RSE has to a large part been transferred to whoever calls = the shots at the RPC (e.g., see 4.4). I have a lot of trust in the = people who are performing this function now, but policies are made to = reduce the need for unconditional reliance on such trust. Both the RPC and the RSCE ultimately report to the IETF Admin LLC. = Diving a bit deeper into what some may think of as paranoia, these = contractual relationships cannot be out in the open, and clearly a = future manipulative IED could do a lot of damage here. I believe we = need to develop some rules of transparency here (I=E2=80=99m going to = avoid the term whistleblower, but there should be defined emergency = communication channels from dependent entities such as RPC and RSCE to = entities such as the LLC board, that are not subject to contractual = restrictions not already required by US law). Smaller points: IRTF RGs can be closed (is this still true? We haven=E2=80=99t practiced = this in a while), these are maybe not a role model for the RSWG. "The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the = engagement of the RPC=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 please translate into a form of = English that more people can understand. You cannot submit Errata, only Errata Reports. (#18 in 4.3). These turn into Errata when being approved (and usually commented on in = the approvement process). [The Errata Reporting process desperately = needs some continuous improvement, if anybody wonders why I care about = this seemingly trivial mistake.] (Already mentioned by others: undefined phrasing =E2=80=9Cin the = open=E2=80=9D.) Nits: =E2=80=9Cguidelies=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Ctools used to authors RFCs=E2=80=9D Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-10-22, at 10:13, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Dear Colleagues, >=20 > This begins the two week last call on = draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1] This call will run through Friday, = 5 Nov 2021. Please send your comments to this mailing list. We will = address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of = course on list). >=20 > Brian and Eliot >=20 > [1] = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model >=20 > >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 5 14:35:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE21F3A0FEC for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:35:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rCwYFYSWB7u for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 404653A0FF5 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id g18so5222111pfk.5 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EW4zZRisvh8lq7WQtr0khN5ngCz0+Hg6A9LnPB4nk7w=; b=RKwCsqf3Z01SmxzZynpdH5dJLGZTVCk2wTf+SRsDOJnQGDWlFpDcYmFFQOr5pEMX/v SVWPSGZ6X6ZaN7ppp1h4PaQPwag+opBZEyMGEYoDTIJYQQkc3yH8KgFZF+jhC11jG3lL +UEw19qlTPpwpI1Q4pwz/IqGbaKnRWYZa9UwWseb3itdxdMcH876Bp1dcAXiJaE+r9eu vkuRxUXajXEcDu/2B/WF/tmc9QLH7M8qTpWIWmFreYmvR280uLfO/9UADUKoVjgt5wde OCtSTG2hJMLsvaRsDY6IG5w3jMt6nQjp2SepRfKLOEZB1vfJ1DX4O6je9wZXPDu6FHvj E/VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EW4zZRisvh8lq7WQtr0khN5ngCz0+Hg6A9LnPB4nk7w=; b=s9SPJlxxw2uY4enMCpHObmFW/xdwUwSf/6LM7MSy1GODY2NUzaqDA9/AZrLMuIKL2h 1LUEoOZW6ygYDh8926+CdZ7p7aKgMBWatAsvZzZ8nuCuFjWJXJJnHces+74V7FlVLK2t dGoJAH13mwBSEp6pSRxlNum7NphOcvm/x6rHMq2pd9YPhDHqD/NaI+0wKR+fma5K+KlG lR3RGbUepgUxQr5U59oAKaoqKDHW562PwL9jERKShkQP2Ti62oNEWO4Qr32B2NxPinb0 CZEJxXi4oU4YzX0vthEXS/y69ZRBEUXf+geO9vUWkcoNFRUbEocuzrMkr8Z//S1FR0Ix uoGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531qFw87VFeDtfAFbCI4Tv/YE93kuNZ3DLqqcsT7AkrZXp5w0s53 RGV32wxEqWs35IdiX7Qw8mtJYCpuhmDZfQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyH/UVuWb4YjqQBx7vQFdNkrHRqHyrAw0aebi3vQikAMquORDEil6wIgfR8xKzanBUQBDfZJA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2410:b0:40e:7d8:ad7f with SMTP id z16-20020a056a00241000b0040e07d8ad7fmr62176957pfh.25.1636148103239; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r16sm6582621pgb.38.2021.11.05.14.35.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:35:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> <974E27F9-0774-4AFC-A711-73502B8740A7@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8f0484d8-c488-077e-551c-3ebf5cc20b32@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:34:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <974E27F9-0774-4AFC-A711-73502B8740A7@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:35:09 -0000 On 05-Nov-21 22:14, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I proposed in an earlier mail to replace >=20 > "RPC under authority of the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D >=20 > With >=20 > "as contractually overseen by the IETF LLC=E2=80=9D >=20 > The second phase is already used once in the document and I think it wo= uld be more correct to use it everywhere. Yes. "Authority" seems to be a trigger word, so let's not use it. =20 > From my point of view we don=E2=80=99t necessarily need to add "on beh= alf of the community=E2=80=9D because that=E2=80=99s what is defined in R= FC8711 as Brian Carpenter pointed out multiple time already. However, may= be a reference to RFCC8711 would actually be appropriate? It's not essential, but it might be useful, to remind people that the LLC=20 exists and manages the contracts as a matter of established community con= sensus. Brian >=20 > Do people agree? >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 > P.S.: Eliot opened issue #122 for this: > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/122 >=20 >=20 >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 23:09, Michael StJohns wro= te: >> >> On 10/29/2021 10:57 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >>> That sounds a whole lot like "ultimate authority" to me. >>> Dropping "ultimate" might make us feel better, but doesn't >>> change the reality. We can, I think, rely on the integrity of >>> those running the LLC and the good connections between the LLC >>> and the community to prevent abuse of that authority, but, >>> unless I'm missing something significant, the authority is >>> definitely there and there is no plausible appeals mechanism >>> other than to the LLC itself. >> >> The phrase is probably "under contract to the LLC which itself is acti= ng on behalf of the community" in most of the cases we talked about. Con= tract implies a negotiated and limited set of both authorities and respon= sibilities. "acting on behalf" explains who the real customer is. >> >> Mike >> >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 5 14:40:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0053A0E92 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SiRwoXa2_Vtp for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6C763A1016 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id t5-20020a17090a4e4500b001a0a284fcc2so4259817pjl.2 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZC4R8x1ESichLzwULJ2FyLlbF5KTsT6NCQFlJYsCtxE=; b=oUn/7cQkhv+80H6/w1ojVQMcAgGJSYco5IOuWZZfLCZa9hZ3COiukgWvnQh29TIWjb cuI20jdGzEqxjOMuDccdZ3le5ozutPao2sQykq/WDTk+V2q6Wmy0FF0zeAootKrgKwNN 26qxLBoHJQBgVfmHLgea9Dtxn13OOJeI0OjyFFDoRuAQBWuIlhbAIJnTG/BbSB4Ijv/z EF022BuEXdgtjv6ZmPIcgFoyTMqCFRrWHXBkgQxfu6rBQwndqYCuq2kZPmSAl0btmblj sv5wA49751W255igREHpMjRzd7OZ4FJplamBGnvt2nmm14JLwbPk0P95H78KlDBCsR4v p8cA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZC4R8x1ESichLzwULJ2FyLlbF5KTsT6NCQFlJYsCtxE=; b=VdSJP6nc+p5qaJaB+PXlMrOc9Gc1AHzP44Fow1GRUxeSkTkZcKJH9eW+n/pk2Up5pR sqFdzAqYNpv7ig4DziP6MSvsMCxkNGZgx39J+mAw6cEDzC2jlpW3X8+zGATFYdVVKogh bF7Bv/3C8bAnxZ/Pj80TAz69r83hGCV5E7nNNe8gOjFS/n5RGYLiVi4KSX7QH4Mft1rY B2XInHbTAjVqFD+xsnpw1XZtP6ADjKd2DD+WySwziwlPWMfavZf+bFzackrk7vvKEXUT ZUW22Bp88FRyaDVgaKA6U6Fn5kPiYtWtXRUDygjuSbQQqoYEdSeW5o9Wwi8uXg+0dVFL fvLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oesjmEecPbD2tVcx2Ib0Zlg/3pgBFAClAlcePqVVwqQqfIUmK c/UqzanroyKu8gIFl5sKtY7yqwI7fp8Thw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUwYzoGNXN2iJWJc8u7LHTR74AENecxLb6T4yomZaCqL1pHF6JRwn4cAjcqSfwdmJEBLBrAA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a47:: with SMTP id lb7mr27760951pjb.243.1636148442405; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h13sm8888067pfc.140.2021.11.05.14.40.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 14:40:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:40:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5010ebbe-4146-0d85-63ea-7b09824fe864@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 21:40:50 -0000 On 06-Nov-21 05:13, Eliot Lear wrote: > FWIW I have opened up issues for the below unless I needed more > information from Mike, with one exception: >=20 > On 05.11.21 09:52, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Section 4.6.1 Second para.=C2=A0 There should be additional text here >> requiring the LLC to share the draft SOW and solicit input on that >> draft prior to issuing it for proposal. >=20 > This was actually previously discussed, and the level of detailed was > negotiated into what the text says.=C2=A0 I have no problem with us > addressing this point, but I would like to hear from others who would > support the change, before spending time on it at the meeting. Since this is already standard operating procedure for the LLC, it is another instance of needing to ensure that RFC8711 applies to the RFC Editor work. I think Mirja's suggestion is correct: put in a blanket statement to that effect. Brian =20 From nobody Fri Nov 5 15:58:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244213A08B0 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bar-a-8cunVj for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 838533A095C for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id k2so10110542pff.11 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:58:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8fa2b42TRw+sVK2GTmmP15l/ICQLL/FfWu8TBUV5f7M=; b=mFWei7wKWZwV0RurgSHtLqrGhGLp8IvzRnq4EwVR6ClR30b1LkxPJCs+Q/LDb+4BVI eO7Op78yH5mjltiDKb7qW5s/jXPHDQMBaO4/YA3OSlAFkO3W9bnl69xZIx6SoyXjR54H IATZ+kHlK1Zkcb1M5a15r0KzRHx9pv39KqL7pbZdT09YyepHkUI3XLV3ikH767RW8/8z 5W7MBTZbrpfgCegnZNtC0eQYCU17ev7tXndbk0nkgj7nBj9pib8ar/vpuS+68AvISh0n NXj9+/9PeQESuOLMoZB1rqzuij5vX7tNFob9HQQAA9hun4qtoodIVnsFEhVGmtjp7JZh 4Fpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8fa2b42TRw+sVK2GTmmP15l/ICQLL/FfWu8TBUV5f7M=; b=epCGf7QVR00V7cZNaBs7QrOjdDYZdguCBu175sWVqFRxz9jBEkgq5SWzkAsvjryLNY iBlNsis5Y2ZteOcmfo2W58Aas+SEzSwWk3UGJK7oSyruNXLngDYw6YJcKnUMoZhdG5jp Z6VpYDA+1V/07OEuYB0UIMiX7gKH0WtJ8pGiuZo3b/WR3qv6Yp0iDXliEFH79xy2cp8x eYECi5KdX58a6tJK1LBCa5tDyBdywGt8ofVqIU6wIIABppO52HAG7ZUvZGfJFYRMx49g pjCbTZ9E2iX5fCCSHa5Zj2/VsdlkKC3IRTHFfp/cu0Eq105XIhyMdY65SbwlFf0HWtjz QHcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uezQ1PAEfXR4tns1FEckK3EJbfKQIxoUKhfYbibpfy6bfbzH2 igBjLA7PA/twHkHWrenBCwXkDxQgv+15iQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXBu1tShcTFmvaduOjUwOVoj0lkraHONtBH44OfwNUpAKhFRLSZ9Nd8N9vugJaJhDm3nANkA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:556:: with SMTP id 83mr36266814pgf.222.1636153095896; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k5sm6989747pjd.46.2021.11.05.15.58.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:58:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Jay Daley References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:58:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 22:58:26 -0000 Hi Mirja, On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say =E2=80=9C= [The IESG] also >>> administers IETF logistics, including operation of the Internet-D= raft >>> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web pages=20 as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D. >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and when = the old ietf.org page was still up. From the RFC it seems, however, quite=20 cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in scope fo= r >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side where=20 authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. infor= mation about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). >> >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but the imp= lication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web site, and contro= ls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC tools and web site. >=20 > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 different angl= es about the website strategy, function design, content, and infrastructu= re. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for the infrastructure of running=20 and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content and f= unctions design decisions. And based on my own interactions with the RPC = I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for the content,=20 beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would re= quire more community responsibility. >=20 > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the IESG we= bsite content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or LLC that has=20 authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think = that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be tru= e for IETF website. I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between policy=20 and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in emergencies, the=20 RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. =20 > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the r= ight structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require po= licy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpage) but decisio= ns. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or something entirely n= ew but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up adding more bureaucracy and = positions to the model)... Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets policy by = issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the RSWG/RSAB can't issue = a formal statement when the topic is not suitable for an RFC. If there ar= e words in the draft that forbid that, we should remove those words. So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site should be u= navailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensus for this= , the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying so. The RPC imp= lements this. Brian >=20 > Mirja >=20 > =20 >=20 >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that the LL= C "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far as rules g= o, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it does seem that our=20 draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We can't ch= ange RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. >> >> Brian >> >>> Mirja >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with=20 the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is w= ith the IESG which a board of community members selected by community mem= ber. >>>> >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that language.= >>>> >>>> Eliot >>>> >>>> >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > . >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 5 16:26:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260193A0C94; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKjfjwSwy7s9; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9F193A0C93; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:25:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:From:Subject; bh=LfKbYyV7D62BWZ0qytAqkmtkocF4uOLyV8gtemiJoMg=; b=EBnt7WtPvBcwjDkGRdzngSMXbo R6UjIe4B3Jci2ilDHiAmQClrVeuIyNAmjPqmfiNjyFcMKCaU1orw2kv2DfZihAI/wYPJnQ+y9aYnZ vnuzKC6vxZ/y9OXEvUC/F1FF3QW3lr5LIFxNeQrBhyHSai8DBRSXNNirBzqsccpQPdrLduRZghsGv VliE5TA9dDs/3xFQTq7vXHF+5l1Bemcgot9GUuzTRtR6IPa9E3PsMJZLcXQz0cStNWMoYZqEoZKYd K5kS5Qn3vmGW/dc3joHTAE7EVhlra1yHlwm13Prko7h33qPlhh6SzWS6jqw+V/T00ddfYe/w8ePRe efGbsijw==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=35219 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mj8ah-0002N9-Dn; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:25:47 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:25:39 +0000 Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:26:08 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2021, at 21:30, Carsten Bormann wrote: ... > IRTF RGs can be closed (is this still true? We haven=E2=80=99t = practiced this in a while),=20 NWCRG is in the process of closing. Colin (yeah, off topic for this list, I know...)= From nobody Fri Nov 5 16:26:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C128B3A0C95 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:26:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EBeuYeqUb9GX for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB0523A0C90 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id i12so11002998ila.12 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:26:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MWWNOFhUXki0aFgE6BKjMxHm6q1fV8eY7RhlyPr51/s=; b=nrBQrYF/L03GFKEvZnWO17jfDaygQxUNi0INwrTJ+84NYtwc30gnx643zKk5Ivi+g+ nLhNemHWwQP8D1vuc4T5+73cA9oIkNhDeLDMgnQpKVkyZ6lq4NsGirreMmClPx9U+gdR 05re6WmPae6cNO2Kcunq9wVnkZ7PfEG7ytPgnJ0ryXkeTEaztMgiWYf0naKxVosQ8TAS pwCpjLz4O8NP9lQJZPPt9iZCqiSCi6PypoPmMZXfz4XyFnsH/n0VN5GxbK+kaqRC/Gjx 7R+2dK/HGVJgU0pAh8Vb6lW3qMlUiVaA7VAE/iT2exGsc6IYX3yOs9+Vlq2N0WtTsqSg 1L8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MWWNOFhUXki0aFgE6BKjMxHm6q1fV8eY7RhlyPr51/s=; b=nlfCdzL48kpmwbeugdhhPcCnaegMcQrZuKq53n5APNf8YtxAhwoHn9W0SUyhRQltvJ tdhaKae5O9Xos4NtsbX2Dqhl/ePp2v3SIWPh/4+sKWR5PsXaEADebIXwEMN6jfhI8m9f tz2koA1i1bxQnaX/5uU8DYAjdkh9R2fAzmRCtqEAgXuWWgAACHUcJt3+Cdzrx0o51kPk UXkkBijo/yYpa3DeWun15KgSv2wcGc4fDqLieagmYBbpXotrUrFFLYEn3d/NT+/hCuU8 Zrew5kClWNtJpEQrZdWD+2lsKUdSOUk4m5GXT1kNmLdWeLBDzjvuFyzc4MkbtVegMQqj ThNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QZiCS6i7WX+s5M8XftiBK1qrDmKWMzNRSDSih9zCpNckf8zgj pUoLtQDW/qDh+rpWGEHlBY87Zw8OR8J7yiXZ/H028w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyjjtDvl8AmS4oIIAGdtPS2tXpZVzS2ZH/x6pf45jGLyBzz4LsFjBDz7q3lNkda1CexbguiUipaDCDJpMdcVyQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b8a:: with SMTP id h10mr42705262ili.219.1636154795865; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org, Jay Daley , Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , Wes Hardaker , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067cb6705d012f9ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:26:44 -0000 --00000000000067cb6705d012f9ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Mirja, > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say =E2=80= =9C[The > IESG] also > >>> administers IETF logistics, including operation of the > Internet-Draft > >>> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web pages > as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D. > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and when > the old ietf.org page was still up. From the RFC it seems, however, quite > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in scope fo= r > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side where > authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. > information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). > >> > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but the > implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web site, and > controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC tools and web sit= e. > > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 different > angles about the website strategy, function design, content, and > infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for the infrastructur= e > of running > and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content and > functions design decisions. And based on my own interactions with the RPC= I > believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for the content, > beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would re= quire > more community responsibility. > > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the IESG > website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or LLC that h= as > authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think = that=E2=80=99s > what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be true for IETF > website. > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between policy > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in emergencies, the > RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the r= ight > structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require policy,= aka Jay=E2=80=99s > point about strategy for the webpage) but decisions. For me the only > available option is the RSAP (or something entirely new but I really hope > we won=E2=80=99t end up adding more bureaucracy and positions to the mode= l)... > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets policy by > issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the RSWG/RSAB can't issue = a > formal statement when the topic is not suitable for an RFC. If there are > words in the draft that forbid that, we should remove those words. > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site should be > unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensus for thi= s, > the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying so. The RPC > implements this. > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force. -Ekr Brian > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that the LL= C > "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far as rules go,= I > believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it does seem that our > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We can't > change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> Mirja > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not sit with > the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is > with the IESG which a board of community members selected by community > member. > >>>> > >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that language. > >>>> > >>>> Eliot > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> -- > >> Rfced-future mailing list > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > . > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000067cb6705d012f9ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mirja,

On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>>
>> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 = say =E2=80=9C[The IESG] also
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0administers IETF logistics, including opera= tion of the Internet-Draft
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document series and the IETF meeting event.= =E2=80=9D
>>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG h= as web pages
as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org)=E2=80=9D.
>>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used an= d when the old ietf.org page was still up. From the RFC it seems, however, quite =
cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in scope for<= br> >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org side where <= br> authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. informa= tion about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6).
>>
>> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but= the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web site, and = controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC tools and web site.=
>
> I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 different ang= les about the website strategy, function design, content, and infrastructur= e. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for the infrastructure of running and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content and fun= ctions design decisions. And based on my own interactions with the RPC I be= lieve they also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for the content,
beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would requ= ire more community responsibility.
>
> While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the IESG w= ebsite content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or LLC that has =
authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think th= at=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be true fo= r IETF website.

I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between policy <= br> and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in emergencies, the <= br> RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy.

> So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the = right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require pol= icy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpage) but decisions.= For me the only available option is the RSAP (or something entirely new bu= t I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up adding more bureaucracy and positio= ns to the model)...

Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets policy by is= suing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the RSWG/RSAB can't issue = a formal statement when the topic is not suitable for an RFC. If there are = words in the draft that forbid that, we should remove those words.

So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site should be una= vailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensus for this, th= e RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying so. The RPC implement= s this.

I agree with this. This is cons= istent, I think with our practice of having non-RFC IESG statements that st= ill have substantive force.

-Ekr
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
> Mirja
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that th= e LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". A= s far as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough,= but it does seem that our
draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We can't = change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>
>>> Mirja
>>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should= not sit with
the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the datatracker the authority is with the= IESG which a board of community members selected by community member.
>>>>
>>>> Precisely where does it say that?=C2=A0 Maybe we can model= that language.
>>>>
>>>> Eliot
>>>>
>>>> <OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfce= d-future
>
> .
>

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000067cb6705d012f9ae-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 16:34:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D323A0CAD for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U6x5tdr4nnmD for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55B393A0CA6 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HmH0D48cPz1nthx; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636155260; bh=W90dFOJuYeodx54Y3Cbs3o8qAzqRLxZrONFOll64+Tk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=msXa9X+FmV9xGH2f9+ThwasJwd4P7dJmDMslbhId65xlHoA4getpYuy12rlJyAK/G KZe1hg+UNzeIjwFI1rzULvnw6M7wFtUL553vJxXtTu3fVnhAgu4rtEBBkvAAqQd/z9 nChMrh/yHKQa1C3DVKQW4VJbOMFrR+VMQKiHj0QY= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HmH0C4lflz1nsZF; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:34:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:34:26 -0000 I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) of RSWG statements. IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to the community. We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made. because they are our seleccted leaders. Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at all. These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far, even subject to review by the RSAB. They do not require community review and acceptance. People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work. What the numbers that others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group and community rough consensus process. Either we retain that part of the process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an unaccountable body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. For me, I would rather retain the work. if the thing being done does not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not Policy. Its tactics. Yours, Joel On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > Hi Mirja, > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > > > wrote: > >> > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say > “[The IESG] also > >>>     administers IETF logistics, including operation of the > Internet-Draft > >>>     document series and the IETF meeting event.” > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web > pages > as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org )”. > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and > when the old ietf.org page was still up. From the > RFC it seems, however, quite > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in > scope for > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org > side where > authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. > information about the LLC or the IAB…). > >> > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but > the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web > site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC > tools and web site. > > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 > different angles about the website strategy, function design, > content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for > the infrastructure of running > and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content > and functions design decisions. And based on my own interactions > with the RPC I believe they also don’t want to be responsible for > the content, > beyond just reflect what’s written down in RFCs, as that would > require more community responsibility. > > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the > IESG website content, I don’t think it should be the RPC or LLC that > has > authority about the RFC editor website content and I don’t think > that’s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be true > for IETF website. > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between > policy > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in > emergencies, the > RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don’t think the RSWG has the > right structure to fill that gap (as these things don’t require > policy, aka Jay’s point about strategy for the webpage) but > decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or > something entirely new but I really hope we won’t end up adding more > bureaucracy and positions to the model)... > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets > policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the > RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is not > suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that forbid > that, we should remove those words. > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site should > be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensus > for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying > so. The RPC implements this. > > > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force. > > -Ekr > >     Brian > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that > the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far > as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it > does seem that our > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We > can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. > >> > >>    Brian > >> > >>> Mirja > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not > sit with > the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the > datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of > community members selected by community member. > >>>> > >>>> Precisely where does it say that?  Maybe we can model that > language. > >>>> > >>>> Eliot > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> -- > >> Rfced-future mailing list > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > . > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > From nobody Fri Nov 5 16:37:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D573A0CBC for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RECGvUtQXVqS for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333D23A0CBB for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id g13so8199024qtk.12 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DGCiBZtPzHlo8cUkzmEKY65iQgPqAA+39BogAZhzpBI=; b=0htblPgbjE3YkP1mu0I+0qdmVyZ4J3NiPF8ktUl95ajyuoWy3uhUB+H+KJAwc27vvS lVKWugNnQ4bZbBJUXRDP6NXOjo/hAqxuaQtdniaK8gwEQx7GBsvmJl6Ew4XI9vBKWG/R Ruj7tI0V0mggzXrKUj6N0R6w6SPouHKUIOmFpKVF93w04Ax+niE3iP0j80Z3n3swmPnJ 2t/+h40iByJ1KoOe0RLlSI9yjHPA5nQftlLjdr/lm8Z9NFhSM5o7BXrgXSe+EHuNDTlB xJ8M9QITLkQ4SAlmMg7js60cYwJwP0c2XofdoT2uO+vbQlXuFj2zU/1DF5mAKVfEaENu 665w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DGCiBZtPzHlo8cUkzmEKY65iQgPqAA+39BogAZhzpBI=; b=ZPydFHk6r4oIu5hTJzZnCHz/EK/PwAKJZpYPUIxWVPkvEiSacc3FbKhGj4xak2u+tL MKNVhy0UnwI5Urp4w4rHjd5UEsaqrP/czn/rymMqqjjU/zlrvb2dVo4TfQQg9OPgUvzI BVbVXK4PBx7SQTHZQf60YTrxO0RfhbFltAxLzJbZwMBxnrl1OE6AeU5QxfTvDYRX89OI AV57p9QrtjUUAgoTcUAllz5uciCfaJ/mIL99jKmQqgKyR85AVY9qoHgR75l4PTSncXTs 33roGhs5TMyFlxbaAXUBDVVsy0y9UWrjUjhYJMNvXMU9Ulshtc+mf1da/n+6nT5oYXFB qVsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533p2rVcp3t1sMziZpuP+Y2WB47pZiSln+tddeHp52t9tsCBVCaQ JdiTninf8FjJKKhb2VHLbNoZY1D4dEQjee8Z X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMZH52smVoQqow1VdynkrCi3RtrjGxjsKX3JE0kYrVy91COrXEPVYQdP+OBD107IZBFqgi8A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1810:: with SMTP id t16mr60101801qtc.348.1636155444999; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h68sm6182541qkf.126.2021.11.05.16.37.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9c2638fe-d5a5-7bad-0a9d-a7d72d884039@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:37:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:37:34 -0000 On 11/5/2021 7:34 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) of > RSWG statements. > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to the > community.  We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made.  > because they are our seleccted leaders. > > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at > all.  These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far, > even subject to review by the RSAB.  They do not require community > review and acceptance. > > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work.  What the numbers that > others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group > and community rough consensus process.  Either we retain that part of > the process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an > unaccountable body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. > > For me, I would rather retain the work.  if the thing being done does > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not > Policy.  Its tactics. > > Yours, > Joel Joel said it much better than I could have and I agree with this unconditionally. Mike > > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter >> > >> wrote: >> >>     Hi Mirja, >> >>     On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>      > Hi Brian, >>      > >>      >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter >>     > >>     wrote: >>      >> >>      >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>      >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say >>     “[The IESG] also >>      >>>     administers IETF logistics, including operation of the >>     Internet-Draft >>      >>>     document series and the IETF meeting event.” >>      >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has web >>     pages >>     as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org )”. >>      >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used and >>     when the old ietf.org page was still up. From the >>     RFC it seems, however, quite >>     cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in >>     scope for >>      >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org >>     side where >>     authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. >>     information about the LLC or the IAB…). >>      >> >>      >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but >>     the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web >>     site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC >>     tools and web site. >>      > >>      > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 >>     different angles about the website strategy, function design, >>     content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is responsible for >>     the infrastructure of running >>     and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content >>     and functions design decisions. And based on my own interactions >>     with the RPC I believe they also don’t want to be responsible for >>     the content, >>     beyond just reflect what’s written down in RFCs, as that would >>     require more community responsibility. >>      > >>      > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the >>     IESG website content, I don’t think it should be the RPC or LLC that >>     has >>     authority about the RFC editor website content and I don’t think >>     that’s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be true >>     for IETF website. >> >>     I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between >>     policy >>     and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in >>     emergencies, the >>     RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. >> >>      > So I think we have a gap here. I don’t think the RSWG has the >>     right structure to fill that gap (as these things don’t require >>     policy, aka Jay’s point about strategy for the webpage) but >>     decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or >>     something entirely new but I really hope we won’t end up adding more >>     bureaucracy and positions to the model)... >> >>     Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets >>     policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the >>     RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is not >>     suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that forbid >>     that, we should remove those words. >> >>     So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site should >>     be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensus >>     for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying >>     so. The RPC implements this. >> >> >> I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of >> having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force. >> >> -Ekr >> >>          Brian >> >>      > >>      > Mirja >>      > >>      > >>      > >>      >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that >>     the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As far >>     as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it >>     does seem that our >>     draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We >>     can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. >>      >> >>      >>    Brian >>      >> >>      >>> Mirja >>      >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear >     > wrote: >>      >>>> >>      >>>> >>      >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>      >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not >>     sit with >>     the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the >>     datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of >>     community members selected by community member. >>      >>>> >>      >>>> Precisely where does it say that?  Maybe we can model that >>     language. >>      >>>> >>      >>>> Eliot >>      >>>> >>      >>>> >>      >> >>      >> -- >>      >> Rfced-future mailing list >>      >> Rfced-future@iab.org >>      >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>     >>      > >>      > . >>      > >> >>     --     Rfced-future mailing list >>     Rfced-future@iab.org >>     https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>     >> > From nobody Fri Nov 5 17:47:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647DF3A08B0 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie> <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <0d763ba3-fda8-dd43-12f6-c994a9a019fc@cs.tcd.ie> <87C5D584-892E-4B54-A180-D102724DA8AE@ietf.org> <698d2e93-54aa-4f54-47d5-3e75d92aa1aa@huitema.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TY2PR01CA0003.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:a::15) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.6] (60.34.155.208) by TY2PR01CA0003.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:a::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.10 via Frontend Transport; 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As an example, the fact that RFCs never change is currently very well established, and it would take an awful lot to change that. But it's important to understand that such a change is not impossible in case the community really wanted it. And the process we currently are creating should be designed to allow such changes if they really correspond to wide community consensus. That should be independent of whether we currently (or in the future) agree with them or not (we both clearly don't agree with them, at least at this time). Regards, Martin. On 2021-11-05 07:24, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/30/2021 10:09 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: >> Hello Christian, others, >> >> Thanks for mentioning the elephant in the room (changing the way RFCs >> get 'updated'). >> >> This is indeed a problem that may be discussed very actively in the >> future RSWG and RSAG. But please note that this cannot happen >> independently of the streams. It's the streams that have the authority >> on the content of their RFC. >> >> Let's assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of integrating >> errata into published RFCs. If any stream refused, that stream's >> errata would just not participate in this feature. >> >> The dependency is much clearer for more aggressive proposals. Let's >> assume that the RSWG and RSAG came up with a way of publishing RFCs as >> 'living standards'. It's very clear that if any stream didn't want >> that, they just wouldn't use this feature. >> >> I hope that also makes it clear that in particular for more aggressive >> proposals, the initiative really has to come from the streams, or more >> correctly, from the bodies behind these streams. Otherwise, any work >> is bound to be dead on arrival. Overall, it will probably take quite >> some time and a lot of coordination. >> >> That leads me to the conclusion that whatever statement about heritage >> we make or do not make, we should be fine, because there isn't too >> much of a risk of some subgroup in the RSWG to dominate the direction. >> >> Regards,   Martin. >> >> >> >> On 2021-10-28 08:58, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> On 10/27/2021 3:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> >>>> It seems to me as someone relatively new to the internal workings of >>>> the RFC series that "heritage" or any similar-meaning term is >>>> impossible to pin down as a general statement and is best addressed >>>> during a discussion on a specific proposal in the RSWG.  Unless the >>>> text is very carefully worded (e.g. with a corollary that change is >>>> necessary to avoid stagnation) then it would be such a blunt >>>> instrument that I would expect it to be regularly invoked >>>> inappropriately and to create friction because those invoking it >>>> would think they have policy on their side. >>> >>> >>> I don't think of that in terms of heritage so much as principles. I >>> think we have broad agreement about most principles, such as making >>> access to the discussion open and free. We also mostly have broad >>> agreement on preserving continuity of the look and feel of the >>> series, even if after tortuous debate we finally got  the format to >>> evolve and allow such things as international characters or vector >>> graphics. The only principle that I see regularly contested is the >>> idea that once published, RFC cannot be changed. >>> >>> I hear the arguments on both sides. On one side, RFC are archived >>> documents, and we don't get to rewrite the past ever, so yes, once a >>> document is stamped with a number, it is cast in stone. On the other >>> side, network protocol specifications need to evolve frequently, and >>> if they evolve developers ought to have a simple mean to access the >>> latest version of protocol XXX. There is a big tension there, because >>> if the protocol is known as RFC NNNN, then it cannot change. If it is >>> known as protocol XXX it can change but then the RFC number becomes >>> irrelevant. Arguably we have a tension between keeping the series >>> relevant and maintaining a core principle. >>> >>> Resolving such tensions is exactly what the RSWG should do. I don't >>> think that we should try to preempt the debate by making statements >>> about heritage. That leads me to agree with Eric and Elliot. >>> >>> -- Christian Huitema >>> >> > Martin/Christian et al - > > Documents have one tag that never changes - the RFC number.  They also > have other tags that can be added and deleted - STD springs to mind. The > problem cited above is mostly not a problem that needs to be solved in > the RFC system, but in the way STDs  (and maybe other sub-series) are > described to the outside community. > > We use RFC on everything because it's well known, but that's a marketing > issue.  If you want to fix this, then start marketing the STD series in > a way that makes clear that the RFC number is subordinate (for this > purpose) to the STD number.  Also, maybe adopt a reference number format > that's bound in time such as other standards organizations use.   E.g. > refer to IETF-STD-3-1989-03 instead of RFC 1122, RFC1123.   The > IETF/IESG is responsible for the mappings from those documents to stable > references maintained by the RFC editor system - e.g. DOI's.   Say you > have an errata published for RFC1122 this month - IETF-STD-3a-2021-11 > with mappings to the revised RFC1122 and the original RFC1123. > > For the RFC series, the main change here is to allow for quick > publication of errata changes - but that's more a process change than a > real change to the RFC series. > > So - Market the STD numbers.  Pay someone who has a clue to do the > marketing for us.   Takes a few years, but you'll eventually get to > where you want to be. > > Later, Mike > > From nobody Fri Nov 5 18:12:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D543A0C80 for ; 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Sat, 6 Nov 2021 01:12:10 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4669.013; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 01:12:10 +0000 Message-ID: <32899afc-f320-d9d6-b3f1-cf16fbdd33ae@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:12:08 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0147.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:7e::15) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.6] (60.34.155.208) by TYAPR01CA0147.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:7e::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.10 via Frontend Transport; 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one within the group and one beyond the >> group.  The one within the group occurs at (4).  The one beyond the >> group occurs at (6).  Please note that this is covered in detail in >> Section 3.2.3.  Could you please be more specific as to what you want >> to discuss? >> > Sorry, the community last call.  As I was reading this, I realized we'd > falling into cargo cult behavior.  We had the RSAB do the community last > call because the IESG does the community last call.  That makes less > sense here for a number of reasons. First, the RSAB and the RSWG have > exactly the same domain of interests, but slightly different levers, but > in the IETF the IESG has a much broader domain of interests that the > WG.  Second, the RSAB consists of folks we've already loaded down with > other work -  the RSAB is "other duties as assigned", but in the IETF > the IESG is selected specifically to deal  with the processing of a > broad swath of documents and related functionality (e.g. WG management > which is not an RSAB task).  Lastly, the RSWG is where the motivation is > designed to come from, so they should be the ones doing the donkey work > of putting the document out for public comment, gathering the responses, > resolving them in the WG, and if necessary lather rinse, repeat.  The > RSAB should be getting a document mostly ready for vote - especially > given the requirement that the RSAB is expected to be active in the RSWG. > > So my suggestion here is to move the community last call responsibility > to the RSWG, specifically the RSWG chairs once they've established the > RSWG has met consensus. > > This is not a line I will die to hold, but I think the division of work > here is just wrong. For the record, and having read the followup emails, I agree with Michael here. The RSAB members will see where the last call goes in their communities, and can always ask the RSWG chairs to add a mailing list if they think that list should also newly get the last call announcement. Regards, Martin. From nobody Fri Nov 5 18:14:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9A13A0C97 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pr_z_b4oyOOK for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EE3C3A0C93 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id x9so11198532ilu.6 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:14:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=calXmDwaXUHHOVcrL0jax7M0z2VRgvw4VZNWgt1zQ6s=; b=G4k5ru20pVFyFBb3M4wKP0C8fim6XstUfcWjDQrZcHjt18jXC9EijRl9nHbDaJMy2p eoaiB5oCM/EuokDXEoSAxvVVmtWquAc7M0nYtJQ+Jjpo77IIKCgZMIf6I0KVyWUxuIz5 oG6tY7mi/fp4nK7GGWKXTITR8mq+oqEm+FFAa+VEVDFJMk1YvthP9++BLTSVcUHVykvC NO023EWZ8LwrOjbTJ79ltcCnwCmh0fkIw9UFx/RHA4gGWVjLagC4x/otH0lxNgnm188X GuIXsSrmuDmgp5KK4PU4lymiJ0894TlJ8JUCRfyZw+bj6RnWTYlAg9/wbpyNV8mOiEFs lxFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=calXmDwaXUHHOVcrL0jax7M0z2VRgvw4VZNWgt1zQ6s=; b=ajCPLxOuo8A53ju+i+iiMRsmWo1Op2UeIk/fzJRZbYmBz6l59pA6OFannvB4L9r+P0 F9SBF1dXZqB5hNk7fiokjEuQC07EiAqzmKnkD3MG4f8sWhja7Uu2IIwES1CdyqwITYrp DVOlOlUK2wurj4Ju1k0mKNvGHFEe7yUudOxd4/BLtsaWqzNAGcrFtygHYg3ncs3s3iYR p3P+fjXyLyJXkOdhJlLKx6YVhkWuGZNDmbK815YQtdAbbsJFfPOUmrStB8WENeLyODme msAMi+R7R/OsqVtDQOIxJZM40zNH/TiPoxgyey7+pIx7JpzVImSc9i/n0jFlt4BBZtun CCXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533d50Olh17231uCffEbhCpuCsNRGV5SaaYereIoF7RAc6+02zp2 02SlX54ijgXsrs6glIJTfOVuKGoNMkljdPMnZB3/tA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzy5Anj0JnPKHYoigjLpwb0X6XCesLjO+xrzFs6XYerwWO5CEawqZY7zBu7rQ1W+9NJqakP91XE3WUqwtXwDQ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:20ea:: with SMTP id q10mr19305620ilv.10.1636161241202; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:14:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093d4fe05d0147932" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 01:14:10 -0000 --00000000000093d4fe05d0147932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as RFCs. -Ekr On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) of > RSWG statements. > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to the > community. We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made. because > they are our seleccted leaders. > > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at > all. These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far, > even subject to review by the RSAB. They do not require community > review and acceptance. > > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work. What the numbers that > others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group and > community rough consensus process. Either we retain that part of the > process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an unaccountable > body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. > > For me, I would rather retain the work. if the thing being done does > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not > Policy. Its tactics. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. RFC3710 say > > =E2=80=9C[The IESG] also > > >>> administers IETF logistics, including operation of the > > Internet-Draft > > >>> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D > > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG has we= b > > pages > > as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org )=E2=80= =9D. > > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely used an= d > > when the old ietf.org page was still up. From the > > RFC it seems, however, quite > > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in > > scope for > > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the ietf.org > > side where > > authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities (e.g. > > information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). > > >> > > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC 8711, but > > the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web > > site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC > > tools and web site. > > > > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 > > different angles about the website strategy, function design, > > content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is responsible fo= r > > the infrastructure of running > > and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the content > > and functions design decisions. And based on my own interactions > > with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsib= le for > > the content, > > beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that wo= uld > > require more community responsibility. > > > > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts of) the > > IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or= LLC that > > has > > authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t = think > > that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also = be true > > for IETF website. > > > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary between > > policy > > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in > > emergencies, the > > RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. > > > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG ha= s the > > right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t req= uire > > policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpage) but > > decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or > > something entirely new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up ad= ding more > > bureaucracy and positions to the model)... > > > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets > > policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the > > RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is not > > suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that forbid > > that, we should remove those words. > > > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site shoul= d > > be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough consensu= s > > for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying > > so. The RPC implements this. > > > > > > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of > > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > > > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also says that > > the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". As fa= r > > as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it > > does seem that our > > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We > > can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. > > >> > > >> Brian > > >> > > >>> Mirja > > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not > > sit with > > the the LLC. For the ietf.org page and the > > datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of > > community members selected by community member. > > >>>> > > >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model that > > language. > > >>>> > > >>>> Eliot > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Rfced-future mailing list > > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > --00000000000093d4fe05d0147932 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FWIW, I was anticipating that these = statements would go through the same
process as RFCs, they just w= ouldn't be published in the series.

With that = said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB
venue = either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited
publ= ication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as RF= Cs.

-Ekr


=
On Fri= , Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I think there is a basic problem with this appr= oach (at the bottom) of
RSWG statements.
IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to the
community.=C2=A0 We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily =
have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made.=C2=A0 becaus= e
they are our seleccted leaders.

Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at
all.=C2=A0 These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far, <= br> even subject to review by the RSAB.=C2=A0 They do not require community review and acceptance.

People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work.=C2=A0 What the numbers that=
others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group and community rough consensus process.=C2=A0 Either we retain that part of the =
process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an unaccountable
body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC.

For me, I would rather retain the work.=C2=A0 if the thing being done does =
not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not
Policy.=C2=A0 Its tactics.

Yours,
Joel

On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter
> <b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wro= te:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mirja,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Brian,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpent= er
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.= com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrot= e:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Actually, that's a bit overly sim= plified I guess. RFC3710 say
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C[The IESG] also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0administers IETF l= ogistics, including operation of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document series an= d the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> However, if you further read on, the = RFC says "The IESG has web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pages
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.o= rg>)=E2=80=9D.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This RFC was written before the datat= racker was widely used and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the old ietf.org <http://ietf.org> page was still up= . From the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC it seems, however, quite
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cleat that all matters related to the datatracker a= re clearly in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the IESG, however, there are probably par= ts of the = ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org> side where
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority is not fully clear or lies with some othe= r entities (e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very= clearly in RFC 8711, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the implication is that the LLC provides tools and = the IETF web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which i= mplies the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools and web site.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely = separated 4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different angles about the website strategy, functi= on design,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC i= s responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the infrastructure of running
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who = owns the content
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and functions design decisions. And based on my own= interactions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want= to be responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the content,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in = RFCs, as that would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0require more community responsibility.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While the IESG has authority about (at least = most parts of) the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it shou= ld be the RPC or LLC that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority about the RFC editor website content and = I don=E2=80=99t think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise = this would also be true
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for IETF website.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with that. As others have made clear, the b= oundary between
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and implementation is somewhat subjective, but exce= pt in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0emergencies, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99= t think the RSWG has the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0right structure to fill that gap (as these things d= on=E2=80=99t require
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for = the webpage) but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions. For me the only available option is the = RSAP (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something entirely new but I really hope we won=E2= =80=99t end up adding more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bureaucracy and positions to the model)...
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, th= e IESG sets
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reaso= n why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when t= he topic is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draf= t that forbid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, we should remove those words.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Edito= r web site should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There i= s rough consensus
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal St= atement saying
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so. The RPC implements this.
>
>
> I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force.
>
> -Ekr
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> But as I have quoted to the point of bore= dom, it also says that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF commu= nity's wishes". As far
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as rules go, I believe that's all we've got= . It's enough, but it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does seem that our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* tho= se wishes. We
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can't change RFC 8711, because we're not th= e IETF.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot L= ear <lear@lear.ch<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewi= nd wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>> I agree authority about the c= ontent of any page should not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sit with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the the LLC. For the ietf.org <http://ietf.org> page and = the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a = board of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community members selected by community member.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Precisely where does it say that?= =C2=A0 Maybe we can model that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Eliot
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> <OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.as= c>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iab.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.iab.org/mailman= /listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>
--00000000000093d4fe05d0147932-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 19:39:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9323A0FDC for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fk_7afhq-rnT for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0FE3A0FDA for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HmM5c4w9Xz1nv1Z; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636166356; bh=dO3n1NUArwJfeYqGs+HcDMS15j3a3b7PCUs2bxCZjvc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=WvpxDTpM/3D9Gbi3HpTJfo9GOtrV8uScDFm6I3lGyAuTrJAwOx93zGvzM1YuUz3Rn AAIOgla9wBk85hK2XbekVPt7pZ7+xjBejOpfKcSMlY1MNGws5orNc6eyzrPqLDtfEF tBXx8C8oT4JfdGuS08i2IK2n7GWij3sye7umXNUE= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HmM5c0LW1z1nv0C; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 19:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:39:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 02:39:22 -0000 I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSWG / RSAB takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication. Yours, Joel On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. > > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as > RFCs. > > -Ekr > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) of > RSWG statements. > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to the > community.  We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made.  because > they are our seleccted leaders. > > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at > all.  These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far, > even subject to review by the RSAB.  They do not require community > review and acceptance. > > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work.  What the numbers that > others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group and > community rough consensus process.  Either we retain that part of the > process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an unaccountable > body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. > > For me, I would rather retain the work.  if the thing being done does > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not > Policy.  Its tactics. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter > > > >> wrote: > > > >     Hi Mirja, > > > >     On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >      > Hi Brian, > >      > > >      >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > >      > >> > >     wrote: > >      >> > >      >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >      >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. > RFC3710 say > >     “[The IESG] also > >      >>>     administers IETF logistics, including operation of the > >     Internet-Draft > >      >>>     document series and the IETF meeting event.” > >      >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG > has web > >     pages > >     as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org > >)”. > >      >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely > used and > >     when the old ietf.org > page was still up. From the > >     RFC it seems, however, quite > >     cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly in > >     scope for > >      >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the > ietf.org > >     > side where > >     authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities > (e.g. > >     information about the LLC or the IAB…). > >      >> > >      >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC > 8711, but > >     the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web > >     site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC > >     tools and web site. > >      > > >      > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 > >     different angles about the website strategy, function design, > >     content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is > responsible for > >     the infrastructure of running > >     and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the > content > >     and functions design decisions. And based on my own interactions > >     with the RPC I believe they also don’t want to be responsible for > >     the content, > >     beyond just reflect what’s written down in RFCs, as that would > >     require more community responsibility. > >      > > >      > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts > of) the > >     IESG website content, I don’t think it should be the RPC or > LLC that > >     has > >     authority about the RFC editor website content and I don’t think > >     that’s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be > true > >     for IETF website. > > > >     I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary > between > >     policy > >     and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in > >     emergencies, the > >     RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. > > > >      > So I think we have a gap here. I don’t think the RSWG has the > >     right structure to fill that gap (as these things don’t require > >     policy, aka Jay’s point about strategy for the webpage) but > >     decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or > >     something entirely new but I really hope we won’t end up > adding more > >     bureaucracy and positions to the model)... > > > >     Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets > >     policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the > >     RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is not > >     suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that forbid > >     that, we should remove those words. > > > >     So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site > should > >     be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough > consensus > >     for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying > >     so. The RPC implements this. > > > > > > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice of > > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force. > > > > -Ekr > > > >          Brian > > > >      > > >      > Mirja > >      > > >      > > >      > > >      >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also > says that > >     the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes". > As far > >     as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, but it > >     does seem that our > >     draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We > >     can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. > >      >> > >      >>    Brian > >      >> > >      >>> Mirja > >      >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > >     >> wrote: > >      >>>> > >      >>>> > >      >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >      >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page should not > >     sit with > >     the the LLC. For the ietf.org > > page and the > >     datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of > >     community members selected by community member. > >      >>>> > >      >>>> Precisely where does it say that?  Maybe we can model that > >     language. > >      >>>> > >      >>>> Eliot > >      >>>> > >      >>>> > >      >> > >      >> -- > >      >> Rfced-future mailing list > >      >> Rfced-future@iab.org > > > >      >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >      > > >      > > >      > . > >      > > > > >     -- > >     Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >      > > > > From nobody Fri Nov 5 20:07:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804143A1085 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:07:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xd_bc6kru8y for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF0AF3A1084 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id x27so22533978lfu.5 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NUTq5IWA8B0MI+aYGQfkZjGa78Fj+Km1enK2bls0K+Y=; b=lNU0i89Ik+8dkZ6jkOc6Qj/orK8BDQtKNHVsq3Ikc2ZcpDc8HtkNTsc6njnXSaAsIf Pb3EeFdp/nCRoL3bBPpwWNvWe8Xv6M1WYZPgn6frhNlfe56WadNaDNUCn65EzYSLw2l7 S0oZRzX3154Z/+FZVlt49zTdMnzQPB5XCPtnD+gaz6lZLJDojREuqDRh2r+bzTHRZLBH eCQzjadODOT4xJR3rIfI1RQ+5iiBiehZHTNHGH8vBRismwhzNQHrqbQ3F8b2oed9kyIk IWcmoITMIvK5c9GBfnF0jt2oUpWAMYZzChjbHDChFYLJQqVQbXE67p99HWRzKhmpmCrd ydGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NUTq5IWA8B0MI+aYGQfkZjGa78Fj+Km1enK2bls0K+Y=; b=73HBbBHxVkJIuhUHR6SNbwxEc2rgBsanFoK94HSQ/DmWo3uE+qhRj0Lh0RlOJekXO/ 8+5nJbICtpEbyH76wfg9ucvvbOF3E0Z5NV1Brt3e/hhNSvmAtyjSqFSLn2Kcza3Ul9lX eWPI5voOYkkwf+Xr4++ofpj+kUn5IhB3DaE5ykv6x5X0idwMPGee0tstafsiEfI8f+GI 0fjsGvCKMwbC59wQxR/evp3oQGBXOwICwHS8nFOn98mwE4/p0lMvmskHRrkO6QUqsDp9 0JDVy+slOZ0bFJ0o/VKEepog4S0+t/YulWehONEUzh3QEK/6SOcFKvvQSctZrd/0z4z8 cYiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531u/BJ48zWg/MucbekS9U3jvStP5ZUmeXbUOEzoqzf+YmaWPEVD fcgDJPRPz8ktYUHb3/KE/8kqavVDXnq/3cgyn2D8dRFVg7O9mA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAsOBjt/wt/OlUbA2+hhevzafBZ5A3rW5q1Vn0/8N2vziRglsml9Pf5+B+DOqDvK5wxfcksI//4+d92ZxMEeg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:ad1:: with SMTP id n17mr58034132lfu.247.1636168042450; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:07:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:07:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6a1e605d0160eee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 03:07:32 -0000 --000000000000f6a1e605d0160eee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2=80=99s actions once the = document is approved for publication. We do need to manage expectations, as simple things might incur out of proportion costs and may require LLC to twiddle its budget. Or may just not be possible immediately. To be clear, the authors may not use AUTH48 to expand upon what was approved. EKR - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propose text? Mike On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSWG / RSAB > takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication. > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the sam= e > > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. > > > > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB > > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited > > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published a= s > > RFCs. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) > of > > RSWG statements. > > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to > the > > community. We permit them to make statements that do not necessari= ly > > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made. > because > > they are our seleccted leaders. > > > > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern a= t > > all. These statements are not, by the rules we have written so far= , > > even subject to review by the RSAB. They do not require community > > review and acceptance. > > > > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work. What the numbers > that > > others have produceed show is that the work is in the working group > and > > community rough consensus process. Either we retain that part of t= he > > process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an > unaccountable > > body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. > > > > For me, I would rather retain the work. if the thing being done do= es > > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly n= ot > > Policy. Its tactics. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. > > RFC3710 say > > > =E2=80=9C[The IESG] also > > > >>> administers IETF logistics, including operation of > the > > > Internet-Draft > > > >>> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80= =9D > > > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG > > has web > > > pages > > > as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org > > >)=E2=80=9D. > > > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely > > used and > > > when the old ietf.org > > page was still up. From the > > > RFC it seems, however, quite > > > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearl= y > in > > > scope for > > > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the > > ietf.org > > > > side where > > > authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entitie= s > > (e.g. > > > information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). > > > >> > > > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC > > 8711, but > > > the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF > web > > > site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies th= e > RFC > > > tools and web site. > > > > > > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 > > > different angles about the website strategy, function design= , > > > content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is > > responsible for > > > the infrastructure of running > > > and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the > > content > > > and functions design decisions. And based on my own > interactions > > > with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be re= sponsible > for > > > the content, > > > beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as = that would > > > require more community responsibility. > > > > > > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts > > of) the > > > IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the= RPC or > > LLC that > > > has > > > authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2= =80=99t > think > > > that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this woul= d also be > > true > > > for IETF website. > > > > > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary > > between > > > policy > > > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in > > > emergencies, the > > > RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. > > > > > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the = RSWG has > the > > > right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80= =99t > require > > > policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpa= ge) but > > > decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or > > > something entirely new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t en= d up > > adding more > > > bureaucracy and positions to the model)... > > > > > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG se= ts > > > policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the > > > RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is n= ot > > > suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that > forbid > > > that, we should remove those words. > > > > > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web sit= e > > should > > > be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough > > consensus > > > for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement > saying > > > so. The RPC implements this. > > > > > > > > > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practice > of > > > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force= . > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also > > says that > > > the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes"= . > > As far > > > as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, bu= t > it > > > does seem that our > > > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes= . > We > > > can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. > > > >> > > > >> Brian > > > >> > > > >>> Mirja > > > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page shoul= d > not > > > sit with > > > the the LLC. For the ietf.org > > > page and the > > > datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of > > > community members selected by community member. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model > that > > > language. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Eliot > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Rfced-future mailing list > > > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > > > > > > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rfced-future mailing list > > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000f6a1e605d0160eee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2=80=99s= actions once the document is approved for publication.=C2=A0 We do need to= manage expectations, as simple things might incur out of proportion costs = and may require LLC to twiddle its budget.=C2=A0 Or may just not be possibl= e immediately. To be clear, the authors may not use AUTH48 to expand upon w= hat was approved.



EKR - I think it=E2=80=99= s in your corner to propose text? =C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /div>
Mike

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halper= n <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wr= ote:
I could live with declaring th= at policy determined by the RSWG / RSAB
takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication.
Yours,
Joel

On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the sa= me
> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >
> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited
> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being publis= hed as
> RFCs.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think there is a basic problem with this approach= (at the bottom) of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG statements.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG statements are made by people appointed by and= responsible to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community.=C2=A0 We permit them to make statements = that do not necessarily
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have rough community consensus when decisions need = to be made.=C2=A0 because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they are our seleccted leaders.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not matc= h that pattern at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all.=C2=A0 These statements are not, by the rules w= e have written so far,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even subject to review by the RSAB.=C2=A0 They do n= ot require community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0review and acceptance.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work.=C2= =A0 What the numbers that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others have produceed show is that the work is in t= he working group and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community rough consensus process.=C2=A0 Either we = retain that part of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and ha= ve an unaccountable
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0body able to exercise authority of the workings of = the RPC.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For me, I would rather retain the work.=C2=A0 if th= e thing being done does
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not have a long enough impact to be published, then= it is clearly not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Policy.=C2=A0 Its tactics.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpen= ter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter= @gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> wrote:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mirja,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja = Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Brian,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4. Nov 2021, = at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 05-Nov-21 02:= 10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Actually, th= at's a bit overly simplified I guess.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC3710 say
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C[The IESG] also >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0administers IETF logistics, including operation of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> However, if = you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pages
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as part of the IETF web (<= a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.iet= f.org <http://www.ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://www.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.org>>= )=E2=80=9D.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This RFC was= written before the datatracker was widely
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the old ietf.org <http://ietf.org<= /a>> <http://ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org>> page was still up. From the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC it seems, however, qui= te
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cleat that all matters rel= ated to the datatracker are clearly in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the IESG, howeve= r, there are probably parts of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>> side where
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority is not fully cle= ar or lies with some other entities
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information about the LLC = or the IAB=E2=80=A6).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Well yes. It isn= 't actually said very clearly in RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08711, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the implication is that th= e LLC provides tools and the IETF web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0site, and controls the RFC= Editor contract, which implies the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools and web site.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have to slightly d= isagree here. Jay nicely separated 4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different angles about the= website strategy, function design,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content, and infrastructur= e. While the LLC or RPC is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the infrastructure of runn= ing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintaining the websit= e, there is a gap in who owns the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and functions design decis= ions. And based on my own interactions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the RPC I believe the= y also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the content,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond just reflect what= =E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0require more community res= ponsibility.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While the IESG has a= uthority about (at least most parts
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of) the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG website content, I do= n=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0LLC that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority about the RFC ed= itor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s what RFC871= 1 says because otherwise this would also be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0true
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for IETF website.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with that. As othe= rs have made clear, the boundary
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and implementation is some= what subjective, but except in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0emergencies, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPC and LLC are not suppos= ed to make policy.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think we have a= gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0right structure to fill th= at gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s = point about strategy for the webpage) but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions. For me the only= available option is the RSAP (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something entirely new but= I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bureaucracy and positions = to the model)...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, sort of. But I obs= erve that when needed, the IESG sets
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy by issuing an IESG = Statement. I see no reason why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG/RSAB can't issue = a formal statement when the topic is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suitable for an RFC. If th= ere are words in the draft that forbid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, we should remove tho= se words.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, someone proposes in th= e RSWG that the RFC Editor web site
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be unavailable on the day = of the full moon. There is rough
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this, the RSAB agrees,= and puts out a formal Statement saying
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so. The RPC implements thi= s.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I agree with this. This is consistent, I thin= k with our practice of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > having non-RFC IESG statements that still hav= e substantive force.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> But as I have qu= oted to the point of boredom, it also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0says that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC "is expected = to respect the IETF community's wishes".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as rules go, I believe tha= t's all we've got. It's enough, but it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does seem that our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft should empower the R= SWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can't change RFC 8711,= because we're not the IETF.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bri= an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 4. No= v 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch>>> wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 04.11= .21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>> I ag= ree authority about the content of any page should not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sit with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the the LLC. For the ietf.org &l= t;http://i= etf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>> page and the<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0datatracker the authority = is with the IESG which a board of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community members selected= by community member.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Precisel= y where does it say that?=C2=A0 Maybe we can model that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Eliot >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> <Open= PGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future mai= ling list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future@iab.org <mail= to:Rfced-future@i= ab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailing list<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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--000000000000f6a1e605d0160eee-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 20:16:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DB33A10E0 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcpMwAL6ll5p for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 377953A10DD for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id br12so20704413lfb.8 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+KM9rMxogqIt7J4cQYrVJA7tdBM2Dsc2NcBPtf0GU44=; b=pWz6mNJHE4XDZlCMP02STFxSpr3ZYdFzhQqiPLJOAzkuaH+1d6OPE58TtHKgN4z9A3 Dvf+yUdaM1nLR3w6e7HVT1lQtM0P7M7w/wvdgwTQFyuTH6PadvfhWPEUOX/pmVFGO3Yf +iUpumIorDGF8tQ1RRJnxdfUmJJTyuIH1kcpdBe2f3rHwwrdxuS7MrRb+1JvwJj2i5jb Dbl8tWeJB3nadZrXZyxmYwFEr/5g7H0ihx9igZEQjYVBgBUBFVafAct5/ogDKaE1JAgk qnnqBE6l7kMcpdt77/SHuNXTloZlt850Cpxc+5KPDet3mqz8ZuO9XMOqVzC9o0n0oNFo d2EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+KM9rMxogqIt7J4cQYrVJA7tdBM2Dsc2NcBPtf0GU44=; b=k3AmOMS4++dlnPSyWfaQya3tFgcvs3gvcUFoGpj0DHg9DzAr9e6oEQKGhIk7w9mjvL h+lIbf14U5p+HCbC+y7X4AkgJ8GxnQWO8wQzMk+F2Ke7gnLmrGsqs2uguc63tgsHOtiX kRPCh1Sfr90kGHcH3STs3hbh9MxP5fT+9yHsA9I2cxlrFWEPeWxlLn8m5soYvxLFuDOn R2SK5ErghaKx4ej9Q2c8fY6i0vguJn0XxhB3UueVQpJWvuP7u3TjA3VWcxVkVlbGiIHv 55ghGhYaA58+1+LKG800FvfXnnvD2b2zePfV4aRWJgHmrPy1PktOrSDRTVoYN1q3qiLp 16TA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KLQVw/p7t6ObyTiNWv4ghnuaOsoFl4EmYiYNdTPC5k8w+xx4C xM5/U+FLpwWnKPlZ0wXw1JbfmLoeZyYmivwrD+bmI67fWvVnvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4k5g8vWkwqulUkaJJlLz/Z9vBLL5HT1HI/GRWi64P1Y7CT2Auees07QcpaCZZQL2dptT0kXPrCEo7cdlJ4NU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c38d:: with SMTP id t135mr16041234lff.581.1636168594738; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:16:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:16:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1e88705d0162f9b" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 03:16:47 -0000 --000000000000e1e88705d0162f9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I wrote the stuff below, I realized that we hadn=E2=80=99t considered th= e AUTH48 and author/editor centric stuff in the publication process. Unlike IETF WG documents, or for that matter most other stream documents, editorial stream documents will always (mostly?) be the product of the whole RSWG not a specific author or set of authors. That suggests that AUTH48 queries may need to be sent to the entire WG, with anything more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing WG input. Consider the above a partially formed thought. Mike On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 23:07 StJohns, Michael wrote: > I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2=80=99s actions once th= e document is > approved for publication. We do need to manage expectations, as simple > things might incur out of proportion costs and may require LLC to twiddle > its budget. Or may just not be possible immediately. To be clear, the > authors may not use AUTH48 to expand upon what was approved. > > > > EKR - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propose text? > > Mike > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >> I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSWG / RSAB >> takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication. >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the sa= me >> > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >> > >> > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >> > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >> > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published >> as >> > RFCs. >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern > > > wrote: >> > >> > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom= ) >> of >> > RSWG statements. >> > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and responsible to >> the >> > community. We permit them to make statements that do not >> necessarily >> > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be made. >> because >> > they are our seleccted leaders. >> > >> > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern = at >> > all. These statements are not, by the rules we have written so fa= r, >> > even subject to review by the RSAB. They do not require community >> > review and acceptance. >> > >> > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work. What the numbers >> that >> > others have produceed show is that the work is in the working grou= p >> and >> > community rough consensus process. Either we retain that part of >> the >> > process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an >> unaccountable >> > body able to exercise authority of the workings of the RPC. >> > >> > For me, I would rather retain the work. if the thing being done >> does >> > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it is clearly >> not >> > Policy. Its tactics. >> > >> > Yours, >> > Joel >> > >> > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpenter >> > > > > >> > > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Mirja, >> > > >> > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> > > > Hi Brian, >> > > > >> > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter >> > > > > >> > > > >> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> > > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I guess. >> > RFC3710 say >> > > =E2=80=9C[The IESG] also >> > > >>> administers IETF logistics, including operation of >> the >> > > Internet-Draft >> > > >>> document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80= =9D >> > > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says "The IES= G >> > has web >> > > pages >> > > as part of the IETF web (www.ietf.org >> > >)=E2=80=9D. >> > > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was widely >> > used and >> > > when the old ietf.org > > > page was still up. From the >> > > RFC it seems, however, quite >> > > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are >> clearly in >> > > scope for >> > > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the >> > ietf.org >> > > > side where >> > > authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entiti= es >> > (e.g. >> > > information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). >> > > >> >> > > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in RFC >> > 8711, but >> > > the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF >> web >> > > site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies >> the RFC >> > > tools and web site. >> > > > >> > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 >> > > different angles about the website strategy, function desig= n, >> > > content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is >> > responsible for >> > > the infrastructure of running >> > > and maintaining the website, there is a gap in who owns the >> > content >> > > and functions design decisions. And based on my own >> interactions >> > > with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be >> responsible for >> > > the content, >> > > beyond just reflect what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as= that >> would >> > > require more community responsibility. >> > > > >> > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts >> > of) the >> > > IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be th= e RPC or >> > LLC that >> > > has >> > > authority about the RFC editor website content and I don=E2= =80=99t >> think >> > > that=E2=80=99s what RFC8711 says because otherwise this wou= ld also be >> > true >> > > for IETF website. >> > > >> > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary >> > between >> > > policy >> > > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in >> > > emergencies, the >> > > RPC and LLC are not supposed to make policy. >> > > >> > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the= RSWG has >> the >> > > right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80= =99t >> require >> > > policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webp= age) but >> > > decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or >> > > something entirely new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t e= nd up >> > adding more >> > > bureaucracy and positions to the model)... >> > > >> > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG >> sets >> > > policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why th= e >> > > RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is >> not >> > > suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that >> forbid >> > > that, we should remove those words. >> > > >> > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web si= te >> > should >> > > be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough >> > consensus >> > > for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement >> saying >> > > so. The RPC implements this. >> > > >> > > >> > > I agree with this. This is consistent, I think with our practic= e >> of >> > > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive forc= e. >> > > >> > > -Ekr >> > > >> > > Brian >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Mirja >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it also >> > says that >> > > the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's wishes= ". >> > As far >> > > as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's enough, >> but it >> > > does seem that our >> > > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those >> wishes. We >> > > can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF. >> > > >> >> > > >> Brian >> > > >> >> > > >>> Mirja >> > > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > > >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> > > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any page >> should not >> > > sit with >> > > the the LLC. For the ietf.org >> > > page and the >> > > datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of >> > > community members selected by community member. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we can model >> that >> > > language. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> Eliot >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >> >> > > >> -- >> > > >> Rfced-future mailing list >> > > >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> > > >> > > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > . >> > > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Rfced-future mailing list >> > > Rfced-future@iab.org >> > > >> > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > --000000000000e1e88705d0162f9b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As I wrote the stuff below, I realized that we hadn=E2=80= =99t considered the AUTH48 and author/editor centric stuff in the publicati= on process.=C2=A0 Unlike IETF WG documents, or for that matter most other s= tream documents, editorial stream documents will always (mostly?) be the pr= oduct of the whole RSWG not a specific author or set of authors.=C2=A0 That= suggests that AUTH48 queries may need to be sent to the entire WG, with an= ything more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing WG input. = =C2=A0

Consider the abov= e a partially formed thought. =C2=A0

Mike



On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 23:07 StJohns, Michael <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:
I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC= beginning it=E2=80=99s actions once the document is approved for publicati= on.=C2=A0 We do need to manage expectations, as simple things might incur o= ut of proportion costs and may require LLC to twiddle its budget.=C2=A0 Or = may just not be possible immediately. To be clear, the authors may not use = AUTH48 to expand upon what was approved.

<= div dir=3D"auto">

EK= R - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propose text? =C2=A0=C2=A0
=

Mike

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 = at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSW= G / RSAB
takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication.
Yours,
Joel

On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the sa= me
> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >
> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited
> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being publis= hed as
> RFCs.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think there is a basic problem with this approach= (at the bottom) of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG statements.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG statements are made by people appointed by and= responsible to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community.=C2=A0 We permit them to make statements = that do not necessarily
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have rough community consensus when decisions need = to be made.=C2=A0 because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they are our seleccted leaders.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not matc= h that pattern at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all.=C2=A0 These statements are not, by the rules w= e have written so far,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even subject to review by the RSAB.=C2=A0 They do n= ot require community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0review and acceptance.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of work.=C2= =A0 What the numbers that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others have produceed show is that the work is in t= he working group and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community rough consensus process.=C2=A0 Either we = retain that part of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and ha= ve an unaccountable
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0body able to exercise authority of the workings of = the RPC.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For me, I would rather retain the work.=C2=A0 if th= e thing being done does
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not have a long enough impact to be published, then= it is clearly not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Policy.=C2=A0 Its tactics.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E Carpen= ter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter= @gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>> wrote:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mirja,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 05-Nov-21 22:31, Mirja = Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Brian,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4. Nov 2021, = at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 05-Nov-21 02:= 10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Actually, th= at's a bit overly simplified I guess.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC3710 say
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C[The IESG] also >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0administers IETF logistics, including operation of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> However, if = you further read on, the RFC says "The IESG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pages
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as part of the IETF web (<= a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.iet= f.org <http://www.ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://www.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.org>>= )=E2=80=9D.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This RFC was= written before the datatracker was widely
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the old ietf.org <http://ietf.org<= /a>> <http://ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org>> page was still up. From the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC it seems, however, qui= te
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cleat that all matters rel= ated to the datatracker are clearly in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the IESG, howeve= r, there are probably parts of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>> side where
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority is not fully cle= ar or lies with some other entities
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information about the LLC = or the IAB=E2=80=A6).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Well yes. It isn= 't actually said very clearly in RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08711, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the implication is that th= e LLC provides tools and the IETF web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0site, and controls the RFC= Editor contract, which implies the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools and web site.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have to slightly d= isagree here. Jay nicely separated 4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different angles about the= website strategy, function design,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content, and infrastructur= e. While the LLC or RPC is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the infrastructure of runn= ing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintaining the websit= e, there is a gap in who owns the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and functions design decis= ions. And based on my own interactions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the RPC I believe the= y also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the content,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond just reflect what= =E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0require more community res= ponsibility.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While the IESG has a= uthority about (at least most parts
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of) the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG website content, I do= n=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0LLC that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority about the RFC ed= itor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s what RFC871= 1 says because otherwise this would also be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0true
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for IETF website.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with that. As othe= rs have made clear, the boundary
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and implementation is some= what subjective, but except in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0emergencies, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPC and LLC are not suppos= ed to make policy.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think we have a= gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0right structure to fill th= at gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s = point about strategy for the webpage) but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions. For me the only= available option is the RSAP (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something entirely new but= I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bureaucracy and positions = to the model)...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, sort of. But I obs= erve that when needed, the IESG sets
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy by issuing an IESG = Statement. I see no reason why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG/RSAB can't issue = a formal statement when the topic is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suitable for an RFC. If th= ere are words in the draft that forbid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, we should remove tho= se words.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, someone proposes in th= e RSWG that the RFC Editor web site
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be unavailable on the day = of the full moon. There is rough
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this, the RSAB agrees,= and puts out a formal Statement saying
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so. The RPC implements thi= s.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I agree with this. This is consistent, I thin= k with our practice of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > having non-RFC IESG statements that still hav= e substantive force.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> But as I have qu= oted to the point of boredom, it also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0says that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC "is expected = to respect the IETF community's wishes".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as rules go, I believe tha= t's all we've got. It's enough, but it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does seem that our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft should empower the R= SWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can't change RFC 8711,= because we're not the IETF.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bri= an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 4. No= v 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:lear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch>>> wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 04.11= .21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>> I ag= ree authority about the content of any page should not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sit with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the the LLC. For the ietf.org &l= t;http://i= etf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>> page and the<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0datatracker the authority = is with the IESG which a board of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community members selected= by community member.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Precisel= y where does it say that?=C2=A0 Maybe we can model that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Eliot >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> <Open= PGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future mai= ling list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future@iab.org <mail= to:Rfced-future@i= ab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailing list<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>

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Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000e1e88705d0162f9b-- From nobody Fri Nov 5 20:54:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D945F3A11C5 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Chs6kxxeTOl4 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8B883A11C4 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id x64so10600477pfd.6 for ; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/HxKpy4/C6pzxx6GgN1apD/lQzPfWQWtooAHTOPlGTs=; b=NSIl7a/AQHxmIDDUqUs/5XZNthGEqbPwVsgqZagk+liS9MMNduk04qfK8cn9IYjATn uRmQ5ihv5KmNWdNEBYn8mWsSuLM9OsnL+VtGJYgteQqpvuvWDRQi7SzpYmNm6tYezOGZ 9c9ndTRd/yroyrPh50qbx6arWeXwsEfT8jIpNUXsJ6AsVh1sQ2el9k499kZK3tyHbezz MZRJMUZY0+JaTUCxeQMtBHzCgDqAWRzBp5XEuwojJp4LyuuDI9TS1ZfmC3H+vJOrGEY1 kshKSgGKIjJoQCR7XyIx3DGhgVvNB572KU+eKqpiO3qTvA3wKOSQniotWnERK24zAo3b 3jpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/HxKpy4/C6pzxx6GgN1apD/lQzPfWQWtooAHTOPlGTs=; b=sQrXOkUrggA92KUQebQ9WkVU/dqAMKmK1qcsrgHp1ilsWX7B7fqudqOXUuxcw1ZDDw t9w2j6X9yTpAsdN2UXNZXaeGAS89PzBxZK/TF0Kt2yhCMaxCwEJnR1qUUB5iwJlR84Pf Ehl9KWNj7WNUPvITpT4CWj0eU4qGpbu6FHuYy19QTp3GRtnstbpw1WstiZFNFTpBmOhF 57RBwUG1coX57LDZl+ZuRg34MY545XawU72lHLs3FnpyEeDBgyvs1njfA/ZzB0WX729f zDC+GOfApqiMDkgZ0aXRtqFM5isW9PTZPAx78om4yAaX1Apn0fk82PhDI+UfwCupcu+J azkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532UGxbrJKgAl5mIue+wKhkjwJdLdylzjCAYrwkWumDKj+Mk1hk8 LnTGXTPbgz6XKEFjNGEF3WQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC1Pya/TXr42MkQwnm/V8KSx/zEOuZEWwK4DMLFJoUKrNAU3HBXC5aAvEysf08vY5AfrGm5Q== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e551:: with SMTP id z17mr46315259pgj.203.1636170850947; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r25sm6866252pge.61.2021.11.05.20.54.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:54:10 -0700 (PDT) To: "StJohns, Michael" , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 16:54:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 03:54:19 -0000 Hi Mike, I think that's wrong. At least for the IETF stream, any WG document that = gets to AUTH48 is the work of the WG, and the authors are really editors = on behalf of the WG. The AUTH48 goes to the authors, and iirc to the WG c= hairs, the shepherd, and the sponsoring AD. Correct behaviour is that if = (and only if) there is an issue that is not editorial, the proposed chang= e is taken briefly to the WG list. (Briefly, that is, if it is non-contro= versial. If it proves to be controversial, AUTH48 can take 48 weeks...) Why would the RSWG be different? Regards Brian On 06-Nov-21 16:16, StJohns, Michael wrote: > As I wrote the stuff below, I realized that we hadn=E2=80=99t considere= d the AUTH48 and author/editor centric stuff in the publication process.=C2= =A0 Unlike IETF WG documents, or for that matter most other stream docume= nts, editorial stream documents will always (mostly?) be the product of t= he whole RSWG not a specific author or set of authors.=C2=A0 That suggest= s that AUTH48 queries may need to be sent to the entire WG, with anything=20 more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing WG input. >=20 > Consider the above a partially formed thought. >=20 > Mike >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 23:07 StJohns, Michael > wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2=80=99s actions o= nce the document is approved for publication.=C2=A0 We do need to manage = expectations, as simple things might incur out of proportion costs and ma= y require LLC to twiddle its budget.=C2=A0 Or may just not be possible im= mediately. To be clear, the authors may not use AUTH48 to expand upon wha= t was approved. >=20 >=20 >=20 > EKR - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propose text? >=20 > Mike >=20 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >=20 > I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSWG = / RSAB > takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication. > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go thro= ugh the same > > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the seri= es. > > > > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the R= SWG/RSAB > > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or exp= edited > > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being = published as > > RFCs. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern > > >> w= rote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think there is a basic problem with thi= s approach (at the bottom) of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG statements. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG statements are made by people appoin= ted by and responsible to the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community.=C2=A0 We permit them to make s= tatements that do not necessarily > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have rough community consensus when decis= ions need to be made.=C2=A0 because > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they are our seleccted leaders. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Allowing the RSWG to issue statements doe= s not match that pattern at > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all.=C2=A0 These statements are not, by t= he rules we have written so far, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even subject to review by the RSAB.=C2=A0=20 They do not require community > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0review and acceptance. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of=20 work.=C2=A0 What the numbers that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others have produceed show is that the wo= rk is in the working group and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community rough consensus process.=C2=A0 = Either we retain that part of the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process, and thus the work, or we ditch t= hat and have an unaccountable > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0body able to exercise authority of the wo= rkings of the RPC. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For me, I would rather retain the work.=C2= =A0 if the thing being done does > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not have a long enough impact to be publi= shed, then it is clearly not > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Policy.=C2=A0 Its tactics. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote= : > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E=20 Carpenter > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mirja, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 05-Nov-21 22:31,=20 Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Brian, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4. Nov 2021,=20 at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 05-Nov-21 02= :10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Actually, that= 's a bit overly simplified I guess. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC3710 say > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C[The IESG]=20 also > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0administers IETF logistics, including operation of the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Draft > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0document series and the IETF meeting event.=E2=80=9D > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> However, if yo= u further read on, the RFC says "The IESG > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has web > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pages > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as part of the IETF=20 web (www.ietf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>)=E2=80=9D. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This RFC was w= ritten before the datatracker was widely > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the old ietf.o= rg > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> page=20 was still up. From the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC it seems, howev= er, quite > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cleat that all matt= ers related to the datatracker are clearly in > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope for > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the IESG, howev= er, there are probably parts of the > > ietf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> side where > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority is not fu= lly clear or lies with some other entities > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information about t= he LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Well yes. It is= n't actually said very clearly in RFC > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08711, but > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the implication is = that the LLC provides tools and the IETF web > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0site, and controls = the RFC Editor contract, which implies the RFC > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools and web site.= > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have to slight= ly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different angles ab= out the website strategy, function design, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content, and infras= tructure. While the LLC or RPC is > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responsible for > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the infrastructure = of running > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintaining the=20 website, there is a gap in who owns the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and functions desig= n decisions. And based on my own interactions > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the RPC I beli= eve they also don=E2=80=99t want to be responsible for > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the content, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond just reflect=20 what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0require more commun= ity responsibility. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While the IESG h= as authority about (at least most parts > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of) the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG website conten= t, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the RPC or > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0LLC that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority about the=20 RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s what=20 RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0true > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for IETF website. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with that. = As others have made clear, the boundary > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and implementation = is somewhat subjective, but except in > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0emergencies, the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPC and LLC are not=20 supposed to make policy. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think we ha= ve a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the RSWG has the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0right structure to = fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99t require > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy, aka Jay=E2=80= =99s point about strategy for the webpage) but > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions. For me t= he only available option is the RSAP (or > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something entirely = new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end up > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding more > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bureaucracy and pos= itions to the model)... > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, sort of. Bu= t I observe that when needed, the IESG sets > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy by issuing a= n IESG Statement. I see no reason why the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG/RSAB can't iss= ue a formal statement when the topic is not > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suitable for an RFC= =2E If there are words in the draft that forbid > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, we should rem= ove those words. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, someone propose= s in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be unavailable on t= he day of the full moon. There is rough > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this, the RSAB = agrees, and puts out a formal Statement saying > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so. The RPC impleme= nts this. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I agree with this. This is consistent,=20 I think with our practice of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > having non-RFC IESG statements that st= ill have substantive force. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bria= n > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Mirja > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> But as I have q= uoted to the point of boredom, it also > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0says that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC "is expecte= d to respect the IETF community's wishes". > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as rules go, I beli= eve that's all we've got. It's enough, but it > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does seem that our > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft should empowe= r the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. We > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can't change RFC 87= 11, because we're not the IETF. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Br= ian > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Mirja > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 4. Nov 202= 1, at 13:59, Eliot Lear > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> wro= te: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 04.11.21 1= 3:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>> I agree auth= ority about the content of any page should not > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sit with > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the the LLC. For th= e ietf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> page and the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0datatracker the aut= hority is with the IESG which a board of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community members s= elected by community member. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Precisely whe= re does it say that?=C2=A0 Maybe we can model that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Eliot > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future ma= iling list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future@ia= b.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iab= =2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > . > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailin= g list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/r= fced-future > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Nov 6 01:00:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC343A14C3 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 01:00:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhZMfkCTW6iq for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 01:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A9AD3A14C1 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 01:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A680LKg3920459 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 6 Nov 2021 09:00:21 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636185624; bh=rhDhTklfXSNwVAR/vA16yJx9jKwNKkDwS+3KzLCLioQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=OYqU6gGxFYVmmcqGl4OorHSUOZNq7HIUgO4zh9cZ0qUt4PyAfm3v421qLZO7wSGZ0 6CjjLPYvZvEGxtjkkPBw6u5tGWkieH+cuYnZYxcm66j/Np8AX+yoYZNVgZMjIaDQFv 6+GsHdSpO58BIjoDOqLYqh/UHZ1w6Gdz93BIr9gM= Message-ID: <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 09:00:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , "StJohns, Michael" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------K0j90OwJJEtzDDxCRrDdk7Et" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 08:00:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------K0j90OwJJEtzDDxCRrDdk7Et Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------q0Ui8wHDwvzKU0iGTzWjriUa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter , "StJohns, Michael" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> --------------q0Ui8wHDwvzKU0iGTzWjriUa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------uMUnBpusgxoa0ADYDuxVLPlS" --------------uMUnBpusgxoa0ADYDuxVLPlS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T2suDQoNCldoYXQgSSBhbSBoZWFyaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGFkZCBhIHNlbnRl bmNlIHNheWluZyB0aGF0IHBvbGljaWVzIA0KdGFrZSB1cG9uIGFwcHJvdmFsIGJ5IHRoZSBS U0FCLCByZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIHRoZSB0aW1pbmcgb2YgcHVibGljYXRpb24gDQpvZiBhbiBS RkMuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCk9uIDA2LjExLjIxIDA0OjU0LCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlciB3 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with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mjIWC-0001rB-B3; Sat, 06 Nov 2021 10:01:48 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:01:44 +0000 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 10:01:58 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2021, at 21:08, Michael StJohns = wrote: > On 11/5/2021 4:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB members have more an = incentive to seek feedback more widely. >=20 > This is where I'm not getting you. Community last calls go to the = community regardless of who issues the calls. I would expect there will = be one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from = the RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty = automatic. I expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in = addition to reviewing community feedback and the RSWG response for = sufficiency. >=20 > Or? For the reason that we don=E2=80=99t ask WG chairs to manage an = IETF-wide last call, but rather task the IESG with doing it. If you want = to get broad community feedback, you make it the responsibility of those = representing the broader communities in the process to ask for feedback. = In this case, that=E2=80=99s the RSAB, as the stream representatives.=20 And yes, in many cases, that devolves into rsab-secretary@ sends email = to the same set of lists the RSWG chairs would have sent email to. But = for the more interesting cases, the RSAB members =E2=80=93 as community = representatives =E2=80=93 have the incentive to seek out feedback from = their community more broadly than the RSWG chairs who are not embedded = in that community. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Sat Nov 6 05:02:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4C43A081C for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKy6NTtxQdt9 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58C663A07F4 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::1] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:1]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A6C2FIb4037686 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:02:16 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636200137; bh=259Ux8L9D8eH6l0uWp1NtGnpr/MKqaW3tvIWXKRbxxs=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=dPiLa5DGumlEhZUHxZic5qrGqP++GHMENOcbixqA5uk+EJD9KY89L2QChQQS7ka4j HS8xn0X5SuSPbbuTSOs7JRBDdCD0GbqZUfu8kiI1I7c0U8alLO+rZfqQgZOQxbv/+n Xr/JXjwugro2qdvzVUx6MWlFhjfmd4cg7Z7ydu20= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:02:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------gRH7I9dcJVecLxJkwQ6kICOE" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:02:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------gRH7I9dcJVecLxJkwQ6kICOE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------oO52BHpdeQ9D3E91l8jjjxUg"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Colin Perkins , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> 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<82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:55:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "StJohns, Michael" , "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011302505d01e4a7c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:56:42 -0000 --00000000000011302505d01e4a7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 8:54 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I think that's wrong. At least for the IETF stream, any WG document that > gets to AUTH48 is the work of the WG, and the authors are really editors = on > behalf of the WG. The AUTH48 goes to the authors, and iirc to the WG > chairs, the shepherd, and the sponsoring AD. Correct behaviour is that if > (and only if) there is an issue that is not editorial, the proposed chang= e > is taken briefly to the WG list. (Briefly, that is, if it is > non-controversial. If it proves to be controversial, AUTH48 can take 48 > weeks...) > > Why would the RSWG be different? > This was my expectation as well. Of course, in AUTH48, the eponsoring AD has some latitude to determine whether a given change is de minimis. I agree with Mike that in this case, there just shouldn't be discretion. -Ekr > Regards > Brian > > On 06-Nov-21 16:16, StJohns, Michael wrote: > > As I wrote the stuff below, I realized that we hadn=E2=80=99t considere= d the > AUTH48 and author/editor centric stuff in the publication process. Unlik= e > IETF WG documents, or for that matter most other stream documents, > editorial stream documents will always (mostly?) be the product of the > whole RSWG not a specific author or set of authors. That suggests that > AUTH48 queries may need to be sent to the entire WG, with anything > more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing WG input. > > > > Consider the above a partially formed thought. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 23:07 StJohns, Michael > wrote: > > > > I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2=80=99s actions o= nce the document > is approved for publication. We do need to manage expectations, as simpl= e > things might incur out of proportion costs and may require LLC to twiddle > its budget. Or may just not be possible immediately. To be clear, the > authors may not use AUTH48 to expand upon what was approved. > > > > > > > > EKR - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propose text? > > > > Mike > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > I could live with declaring that policy determined by the RSWG = / > RSAB > > takes effect when the RFC is approved for publication. > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go > through the same > > > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the > series. > > > > > > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the > RSWG/RSAB > > > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or > expedited > > > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being > published as > > > RFCs. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > I think there is a basic problem with this approach (at > the bottom) of > > > RSWG statements. > > > IESG statements are made by people appointed by and > responsible to the > > > community. We permit them to make statements that do no= t > necessarily > > > have rough community consensus when decisions need to be > made. because > > > they are our seleccted leaders. > > > > > > Allowing the RSWG to issue statements does not match tha= t > pattern at > > > all. These statements are not, by the rules we have > written so far, > > > even subject to review by the RSAB. > They do not require community > > > review and acceptance. > > > > > > People keep saying that RFCs are a lot of > work. What the numbers that > > > others have produceed show is that the work is in the > working group and > > > community rough consensus process. Either we retain tha= t > part of the > > > process, and thus the work, or we ditch that and have an > unaccountable > > > body able to exercise authority of the workings of the > RPC. > > > > > > For me, I would rather retain the work. if the thing > being done does > > > not have a long enough impact to be published, then it i= s > clearly not > > > Policy. Its tactics. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel > > > > > > On 11/5/2021 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E > Carpenter > > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > > > > > On 05-Nov-21 22:31, > Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > > >> On 4. Nov 2021, > at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter > > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > > >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I > guess. > > > RFC3710 say > > > > =E2=80=9C[The IESG] > also > > > > >>> administers IETF logistics, including > operation of the > > > > Internet-Draft > > > > >>> document series and the IETF meeting > event.=E2=80=9D > > > > >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC say= s > "The IESG > > > has web > > > > pages > > > > as part of the IETF > web (www.ietf.org http://www.ietf.org>> > > > < > http://www.ietf.org >>)=E2=80=9D. > > > > >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker > was widely > > > used and > > > > when the old ietf.org < > http://ietf.org > > > > >> page > was still up. From the > > > > RFC it seems, however, quite > > > > cleat that all matters related to the datatracker > are clearly in > > > > scope for > > > > >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts o= f > the > > > ietf.org >> > > > > < > http://ietf.org >> side where > > > > authority is not fully clear or lies with some > other entities > > > (e.g. > > > > information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6). > > > > >> > > > > >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly > in RFC > > > 8711, but > > > > the implication is that the LLC provides tools an= d > the IETF web > > > > site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which > implies the RFC > > > > tools and web site. > > > > > > > > > > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely > separated 4 > > > > different angles about the website strategy, > function design, > > > > content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC > is > > > responsible for > > > > the infrastructure of running > > > > and maintaining the > website, there is a gap in who owns the > > > content > > > > and functions design decisions. And based on my > own interactions > > > > with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t wa= nt to be > responsible for > > > > the content, > > > > beyond just reflect > what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would > > > > require more community responsibility. > > > > > > > > > > While the IESG has authority about (at least > most parts > > > of) the > > > > IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it sh= ould be > the RPC or > > > LLC that > > > > has > > > > authority about the > RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think > > > > that=E2=80=99s what > RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be > > > true > > > > for IETF website. > > > > > > > > I agree with that. As others have made clear, the > boundary > > > between > > > > policy > > > > and implementation is somewhat subjective, but > except in > > > > emergencies, the > > > > RPC and LLC are not > supposed to make policy. > > > > > > > > > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t= think > the RSWG has the > > > > right structure to fill that gap (as these things > don=E2=80=99t require > > > > policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy fo= r the > webpage) but > > > > decisions. For me the only available option is th= e > RSAP (or > > > > something entirely new but I really hope we won= =E2=80=99t > end up > > > adding more > > > > bureaucracy and positions to the model)... > > > > > > > > Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, > the IESG sets > > > > policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no > reason why the > > > > RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the > topic is not > > > > suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the > draft that forbid > > > > that, we should remove those words. > > > > > > > > So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC > Editor web site > > > should > > > > be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There > is rough > > > consensus > > > > for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal > Statement saying > > > > so. The RPC implements this. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with this. This is consistent, > I think with our practice of > > > > having non-RFC IESG statements that still have > substantive force. > > > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, > it also > > > says that > > > > the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF > community's wishes". > > > As far > > > > as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's > enough, but it > > > > does seem that our > > > > draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* > those wishes. We > > > > can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF= . > > > > >> > > > > >> Brian > > > > >> > > > > >>> Mirja > > > > >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear < > lear@lear.ch > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > > > >>>>> I agree authority about the content of any > page should not > > > > sit with > > > > the the LLC. For the ietf.org < > http://ietf.org > > > > http://ietf.org>>> page and the > > > > datatracker the authority is with the IESG which = a > board of > > > > community members selected by community member. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Precisely where does it say that? Maybe we > can model that > > > > language. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Eliot > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Rfced-future mailing list > > > > >> Rfced-future@iab.org Rfced-future@iab.org> Rfced-future@iab.org>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future < > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future> > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>> > > > > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>> > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rfced-future mailing list > > > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > > > > >> > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future < > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future> > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>> > > > > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future < > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future> > > > > > > --00000000000011302505d01e4a7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 8:54 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mike,

I think that's wrong. At least for the IETF stream, any WG document tha= t gets to AUTH48 is the work of the WG, and the authors are really editors = on behalf of the WG. The AUTH48 goes to the authors, and iirc to the WG cha= irs, the shepherd, and the sponsoring AD. Correct behaviour is that if (and= only if) there is an issue that is not editorial, the proposed change is t= aken briefly to the WG list. (Briefly, that is, if it is non-controversial.= If it proves to be controversial, AUTH48 can take 48 weeks...)

Why would the RSWG be different?

This w= as my expectation as well. Of course, in AUTH48, the eponsoring AD has some= latitude to determine whether a given change is de minimis. I agree with M= ike that in this case, there just shouldn't be discretion.

-Ekr


Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

On 06-Nov-21 16:16, StJohns, Michael wrote:
> As I wrote the stuff below, I realized that we hadn=E2=80=99t consider= ed the AUTH48 and author/editor centric stuff in the publication process.= =C2=A0 Unlike IETF WG documents, or for that matter most other stream docum= ents, editorial stream documents will always (mostly?) be the product of th= e whole RSWG not a specific author or set of authors.=C2=A0 That suggests t= hat AUTH48 queries may need to be sent to the entire WG, with anything
more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing WG input.
>
> Consider the above a partially formed thought.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 23:07 StJohns, Michael <msj@nthpermutation.com <mail= to:msj@nthpermu= tation.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m mostly ok with the LLC beginning it=E2= =80=99s actions once the document is approved for publication.=C2=A0 We do = need to manage expectations, as simple things might incur out of proportion= costs and may require LLC to twiddle its budget.=C2=A0 Or may just not be = possible immediately. To be clear, the authors may not use AUTH48 to expand= upon what was approved.
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0EKR - I think it=E2=80=99s in your corner to propos= e text?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mike
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 22:39 Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com<= /a> <mailto:jmh= @joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I could live with declaring that poli= cy determined by the RSWG / RSAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0takes effect when the RFC is approved= for publication.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/5/2021 9:13 PM, Eric Rescorla w= rote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > FWIW, I was anticipating that t= hese statements would go through the same
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > process as RFCs, they just woul= dn't be published in the series.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > With that said, if we can agree= that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > venue either have immediate eff= ect upon RSAB approval or expedited
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > publication in the RFC series, = I don't object to them being published as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RFCs.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 4:34 PM = Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think ther= e is a basic problem with this approach (at the bottom) of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG stateme= nts.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG stateme= nts are made by people appointed by and responsible to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community.= =C2=A0 We permit them to make statements that do not necessarily
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have rough c= ommunity consensus when decisions need to be made.=C2=A0 because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they are our= seleccted leaders.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Allowing the= RSWG to issue statements does not match that pattern at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all.=C2=A0 T= hese statements are not, by the rules we have written so far,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even subject= to review by the RSAB.=C2=A0
They do not require community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0review and a= cceptance.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0People keep = saying that RFCs are a lot of
work.=C2=A0 What the numbers that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others have = produceed show is that the work is in the working group and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community ro= ugh consensus process.=C2=A0 Either we retain that part of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process, and= thus the work, or we ditch that and have an unaccountable
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0body able to= exercise authority of the workings of the RPC.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For me, I wo= uld rather retain the work.=C2=A0 if the thing being done does
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not have a l= ong enough impact to be published, then it is clearly not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Policy.=C2= =A0 Its tactics.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/5/2021= 7:25 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri= , Nov 5, 2021 at 3:58 PM Brian E
Carpenter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter= @gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>> wrote= :
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mirja,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 05-Nov-21 22:31,
Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Brian,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 4. Nov 2021,
at 21:02, Brian E Carpenter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 05-Nov-21 02:10, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Actually, that's a bit overly simplified I g= uess.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC3710 say<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C[The IESG]
also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0administers IETF logistics, i= ncluding operation of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document series and the IETF = meeting event.=E2=80=9D
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> However, if you further read on, the RFC says &q= uot;The IESG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0has web
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0pages
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0as part of the IETF
web (w= ww.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.org> <http://www.ietf.org <http://www.ie= tf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://www.ie= tf.org <http://www.ietf.org> <http://www.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.or= g>>>)=E2=80=9D.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This RFC was written before the datatracker was = widely
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the old ietf.org <http://ietf.org> <http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org&= gt;> <http://ietf.org
<http:/= /ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <htt= p://ietf.org>>> page
was still up. From the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC it seems, however, quite
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0cleat that all matters related to the datatracker are clearly = in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the IESG, however, there are probably parts of the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org <http://ietf.org> <http://ietf.org<= /a> <ht= tp://ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org> <http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>= ;>> side where
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority is not fully clear or lies with some other entities<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0information about the LLC or the IAB=E2=80=A6).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Well yes. It isn't actually said very clearly in= RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08711, but >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0the implication is that the LLC provides tools and the IETF we= b
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0site, and controls the RFC Editor contract, which implies the = RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools and web site.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have to slightly disagree here. Jay nicely separated 4=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0different angles about the website strategy, function design,<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0content, and infrastructure. While the LLC or RPC is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responsible = for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0the infrastructure of running
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0and maintaining the
website, there is a gap in who owns the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0content
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0and functions design decisions. And based on my own interactio= ns
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the RPC I believe they also don=E2=80=99t want to be resp= onsible for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0the content,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond just reflect
what=E2=80=99s written down in RFCs, as that would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0require more community responsibility.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While the IESG has authority about (at least most parts<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of) the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0IESG website content, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be the R= PC or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0LLC that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0authority about the
RFC editor website content and I don=E2=80=99t think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0that=E2=80=99s what
RFC8711 says because otherwise this would also be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0true
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0for IETF website.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with that. As others have made clear, the boundary
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0between
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0and implementation is somewhat subjective, but except in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0emergencies, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0RPC and LLC are not
supposed to make policy.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So I think we have a gap here. I don=E2=80=99t think the= RSWG has the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0right structure to fill that gap (as these things don=E2=80=99= t require
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy, aka Jay=E2=80=99s point about strategy for the webpage= ) but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions. For me the only available option is the RSAP (or >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0something entirely new but I really hope we won=E2=80=99t end = up
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding more<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0bureaucracy and positions to the model)...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, sort of. But I observe that when needed, the IESG sets=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy by issuing an IESG Statement. I see no reason why the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG/RSAB can't issue a formal statement when the topic is= not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0suitable for an RFC. If there are words in the draft that forb= id
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, we should remove those words.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, someone proposes in the RSWG that the RFC Editor web site<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0be unavailable on the day of the full moon. There is rough
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consensus >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this, the RSAB agrees, and puts out a formal Statement say= ing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0so. The RPC implements this.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I agre= e with this. This is consistent,
I think with our practice of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > having= non-RFC IESG statements that still have substantive force.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> But as I have quoted to the point of boredom, it als= o
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0says that >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC "is expected to respect the IETF community's = wishes".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0as rules go, I believe that's all we've got. It's = enough, but it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0does seem that our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft should empower the RSWG/RSAB to *express* those wishes. = We
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0can't change RFC 8711, because we're not the IETF.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> Mirja
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 4. Nov 2021, at 13:59, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch <mailto:= lear@lear.ch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:lear@lear.ch" target=3D"_blank">lear@lear.ch <mailt= o:lear@lear.ch>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:l= ear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch> <mailto:lear@lear.ch <mailto:lear@lear.ch>>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> On 04.11.21 13:57, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>> I agree authority about the content of a= ny page should not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0sit with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0the the LLC. For the ietf.org <http://ietf.org> <http://ietf.org <http://ietf.= org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org <htt= p://ietf.org> <http://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>>> page and the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0datatracker the authority is with the IESG which a board of >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0community members selected by community member.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Precisely where does it say that?=C2=A0 Mayb= e we can model that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0language.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> Eliot
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> <OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D27A33.asc>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Rfced-future mailing list
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org" target=3D"_blank">Rfced-future@iab.o= rg <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org> <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>= >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/= listinfo/rfced-future <https://www.iab.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rfced-future>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listin= fo/rfced-future <https://www.iab.org/mailman= /listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future <= https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future <= ;https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future<= /a>>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future <= https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailing list
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>
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--00000000000011302505d01e4a7c-- From nobody Sat Nov 6 05:59:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433BA3A0CFA for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VvXeAKvf4wQy for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1A483A0CF8 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 05:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a10c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.161.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HmcsZ2rw6z2xJK; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:59:46 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:59:46 +0100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 657896385.943894-42b05bc4af6b60c353d09318dbeadcf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <434C0A10-E57E-4803-BADD-4F76093F0462@tzi.org> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> To: "StJohns, Michael" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:59:54 -0000 On 2021-11-06, at 04:16, StJohns, Michael = wrote: >=20 > with anything more complex than phrasing and comment placement needing = WG input. =20 =E2=80=A6 and RSAB approval (standing in for the AD in the IETF stream). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 6 12:42:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD233A0E93 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 12:42:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRam6i-kYZD5 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 12:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1E1D3A0E98 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2021 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id s136so11319609pgs.4 for ; Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hkNOc7lnVf6reUqSIpx1VByBAa8C1yRX/FdwSJLFphk=; b=I4OYkqkvrgv6UXKXOw82Xa1EcTew4++tbTSNlK9HiI6yQhgmD2/vJf9b/fY3QmxPL4 8exMmFqGxveCzSAqUghsgDEfniWP9SuUKGN9+6KFmlor+VwnmlPAhLkcIEZf0ZsWLhH0 GS3G9IGDO8XjVRvWqp5Xf9yJVPhqX1nnXLtyAM93WGQbObMHAGJPjfKFUkszNQtzJTol PgHmrayaoD1m7Gar6669IzB6WYzoNM7oEwK4EjqaEn6VqDDfv+Oy5BCBYGd+T3WbyQve r33Bhfty5PiCAqYVBzG2b16bCW5WT0cayRdO0qC6MJXCUed0Gb7Bim7PzA/zdBb9LvE3 +a/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hkNOc7lnVf6reUqSIpx1VByBAa8C1yRX/FdwSJLFphk=; b=jJgVnEbgdkNZ4mRy5I45vOHOvCJhl8LN0KWbvXNzQjPWGi2atz11BToglmaghY5puR ELmXrIyaJo+ryezVxos1ijkSFTOVL3mL1m1GfM7ofXBOcXjHNYY9xhAjal6pCx52v5Xv evm1TfcbXJLrqlIIrZbZt6hriHATKEqWxe3WQwxq5XII2k2RGeAUxoF+xYljjB8ozLab NPHUp5Ha2b/Qz6HnkufapwmgGAji7cV/qTBgfm2gg6U5kgAN5C1hXZ58VEi/nuMhzRNp HRyxbDcwxzAIN4d/NCA0Ogz6EQZAOV30HtaEP3qTDH6sytFdT/z6XgzllSwt5nmV158f OnJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531E5BsrLcyNyb5shnBegt6ir4Y+I2IJb7+MvBc2tev1lR+2q8wA 898H+wsvJnbT5CUvYuKygi1/4nrnaMHBRw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwaIPsPpO9b1XfSrhUHDtZs4a1ptoayHs/tfn2BdvXLlE95Ppc6oZ3gqAefFP985cJqFb6+2g== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7dc7:0:b0:47e:50ae:b9eb with SMTP id y190-20020a627dc7000000b0047e50aeb9ebmr68043981pfc.77.1636227746448; Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s13sm11560236pfk.211.2021.11.06.12.42.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:42:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Colin Perkins , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:42:20 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 19:42:34 -0000 On 07-Nov-21 01:02, Eliot Lear wrote: > We'll discuss this point this week. >=20 > As a practical matter, I would expect the tooling to kick in such that > once the chairs have sent the document to the RSAB it just goes out for= > community review (whether from the RSAB chairs or RSWG chairs).=C2=A0 T= he > more important point is who you want to interpret the feedback, and > there we're saying that it's the RSWG in the first instance.=C2=A0 Only=20 an > appeal of lack of consensus (e.g. failure to follow process) would brin= g > the issue to the RSAB. >=20 > To me, what this means is that what is more important than who issues > the call is the wording of the call itself: it must be made clear to > community members that to have their views noted, they need to > participate in RSWG discussions.=C2=A0 Simply replying the RSAB has NO > effect, as things are currently stated. I agree that the community last call discussion must take place in public= , which in practice means via the RSWG list or the rfc-interest list. The RSAB shouldn't have a pocket veto (any more than the IESG). But I think Colin is correct; by symmetry with IETF and IRTF practice, the approving body should issue the last call. Otherwise, we don't have effective checks and balances. Brian >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > On 06.11.21 11:01, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 21:08, Michael StJohns wro= te: >>> On 11/5/2021 4:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB members have more an in= centive to seek feedback more widely. >>> This is where I'm not getting you. Community last calls go to the co= mmunity regardless of who issues the calls. I would expect there will be=20 one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from the = RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty automatic. I = expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in addition to re= viewing community feedback and the RSWG response for sufficiency. >>> >>> Or? >> >> For the reason that we don=E2=80=99t ask WG chairs to manage an IETF-w= ide last call, but rather task the IESG with doing it. If you want to get=20 broad community feedback, you make it the responsibility of those represe= nting the broader communities in the process to ask for feedback. In this=20 case, that=E2=80=99s the RSAB, as the stream representatives. >> >> And yes, in many cases, that devolves into rsab-secretary@ sends email=20 to the same set of lists the RSWG chairs would have sent email to. But fo= r the more interesting cases, the RSAB members =E2=80=93 as community rep= resentatives =E2=80=93 have the incentive to seek out feedback from their=20 community more broadly than the RSWG chairs who are not embedded in that = community. >> >> From nobody Sun Nov 7 02:04:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7153A11E1 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 02:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VzYyyBmGVRXY for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 02:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B914C3A11E2 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 02:04:15 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=dLAA4/09YoG42HisJxRFhO4KFfN5Ig6oQzzFHbd8Y+Ll1G8HsfsImV2jKC7mr0hEZGr+GbeVwXaD4QmGwSmR72TZ0v6H6AblNTlAdBpkVEtgqIbBZwKwblp3wNfnkJvkOVeifZXgZzs87lyieg0Ry2b8pWS4lU8CmvcxOdo1RbpT3XUlagRfAlY2GFwJzZUpspEgLJ8bJAXewsnojVHzuIL2fWytZ59HkhPSqV0wjCgId68EcbDjuDfKUa4GiFoCqapONqvo6cYNajaqsrLG8Yw6AkZGycQKX4WZ6JYe1ML33lCEjSMJjWEnSeJ4xKfK2eSyJBNpwpMWSTMlrijKog== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=uaW3hBfbZXv4ycTWu2rEnuIsFZocRt523RTx43oCKV8=; b=eiG1gg3JUC0jfq3QwVemMN6qtmd2E4PfXpOoKg2QYeoWs2Y5xHWjPP+2KV4mnTMWg4MVA8HWU/O6zIZlX1AwQk3w2IY1t6mTuWFj/yVrHZ4vux4aSiNGqGVf9AB0+1WNYUzn75ma8miCbJ4OWTEfSoqJ42HlARrzQP+MNSi1d7UIyL/T3gnD/TDUTl4FYzYeFI0Qh83Rj8VACTRwxvzxfCHwUx7hyYI4ldE05iZPoAXso2z7k5Gz7trAqTzW9SlGXkQkQLLNR+vq5rxIrbYj9f0RN+a51hioWRj/dGluq0bowiFieG1x7kvdXYpcq9dNl2gQUYMin5fei8j5KsSn8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=uaW3hBfbZXv4ycTWu2rEnuIsFZocRt523RTx43oCKV8=; b=C74guWsRKlcbmgEiMH0a7hSwDovh0eFqxgknDsvbKbBfhAbb/uHOnKcIF48rhWdKAcG9AK438eh8Qt5UroObM03yijeabal2R2VFZ4XxR5IsyFkUY4h7wY5TEgbeuukUkwPHU48pVrUbPlGIhRG+VdIXTucbeFFuD/xFenkKkdw= Authentication-Results: mnot.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mnot.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYAPR01MB5945.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8055::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.10; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:04:11 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4669.015; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:04:11 +0000 Message-ID: <44b7533b-eb86-4840-aa6b-499be3484741@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 19:04:09 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TY1PR01CA0138.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:402:1::14) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.6] (219.167.55.115) by TY1PR01CA0138.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:402:1::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:04:11 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 71e7d396-9db1-4ce5-757a-08d9a1d5f22f X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB5945: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; 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On 2021-11-05 14:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Inline as well. I think we're making progress, at least in terms of isolating the specific issues. > >> On 5 Nov 2021, at 3:36 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> In line. Although the real answer to most of the second set of questions is "it depends". >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the compromises of the structure. > > I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- but Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility. > >> Also, it seems to me that as long as the goal is policy, the cost of producing an RFC seems an acceptable cost for getting the work done well. > > Publishing an RFC is *extremely* onerous these days. I note that both the IESG and IAB document policy-like things on the Web as a result. > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/ > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/iesg-coi-policy/ > https://www.iab.org/documents/correspondence-reports-documents/ > https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-policy/ One way to see these documents is that they are there for as long as nobody sees the need to document their content in an actual RFC. That view might work for our case, too. Let's say somebody in the RSWG　has actually figured out how to make sure RFCs appear in Google Scholar. Let's say they write it up as an email first, and after the RSWG quickly agrees that doing this would be a good thing, it ends up as a 'statement'. The RSAB could then simply ask the LLC and the RPC "do you need this as an RFC, or are you fine with what we have". The RPC could come back and say "that's a one line change, we'll ask our programmer to work on it next week, where they have some cycles available", or (not in this case I'd guess, but in another) "sorry, we need more money if you want us to do this". The LLC could then say "sorry, that's too much money for us to just wrap that in somewhere, can you please give us an RFC". > Requiring an RFC for any statement from the RSWG is going to hobble its ability to do even simple things like answer a question from the Executive Director or RPC. If someone sees an obvious improvement that can quickly gain consensus, they'll need to either publish an RFC or (more likely, if they know the right people) make a quiet suggestion on the side. Yes. In this discussion, I think some people are afraid that an active minority of RSWG participants rides their hobby horses. That's clearly not what we want to be happening. On the other hand, we don't want to block obvious progress that has wide agreement, and we want to make the effort needed for such progress commensurate with the issues involved, and want to make sure we can take advantage of the expertise available. > We seem to agree that RSWG/RSAB are authoritative for the content on the RFC Editor site, in the sense that when there's disagreement about it, it will be resolved there. Is it really practical to wait for an RFC to be published if a problem comes up that requires that authority to be exercised? > >>>> I do think that that policies about "document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCS" fall within the policy remit we have agreed to assign to the RSWG. I do not think that includes management of the layout, tools, or content structure for the RFC Editor web site. Well, just as a very simple example, what about the RSWG/RSAB saying that STDs are more important than RFCs, and should therefore come first? >>> 'Tools' is a word that's used imprecisely in the IETF. Would you consider the following in scope? >>> - Whether there should be an RSS feed with particular kinds of content available >> If asked as "whether the RFC Editor web site should support a subscription form of access to some set of data (e.g. newly publish RFCs), I can see that as policy. Saying it is RSS is implementation. > > Implementation is 'write a Perl script to produce the feed.' Specifying RSS (or more likely in our case, Atom, since it has an RFC) is a functional requirement -- i.e., we are requiring the site to interoperate with feed readers. Just as 'publish a Web site' implies use of HTML, not PDF. > > If we can't agree to allow the RSWG to say such things, fine -- but it seems like an absurd limitation to force the RSWG to state everything in abstract weasel words for the LLC and RPC to interpret, and let's be clear: we're placing all of our faith in the LLC coming up with the appropriate way to deal with these 'implementation details', outside of the community as constituted. That's less transparent and open than I'd expect. I very much agree with Mark here. Please also consider the following points: Most people in the IETF are technically oriented. It will be very difficult for many of them to not think about and discuss some of the main implementation 'details'. I can't imagine the chairs telling everybody to shut up talking about technical details. (I can imagine and hope that they will tell people to concentrate on policy and discuss details only to the extent relevant, but that's a separate thing.) There may be wide community consensus on some of the bigger 'details' (e.g. Atom as in the example above), and it would be a pity if these wouldn't be documented and would result in money spent uselessly away from community interest and needs. And many of the people involved will have valuable expertise in some of the areas affected. Do we want to give these people the impression that their expertise isn't of interest? And then let the LLC and the RPC figure out things on their own, and pay additional consultancies? It's fairly clear that the RSWG/RSAB shouldn't tell the LCC/RPC whether a button should be green or blue, or have sharp or round corners. But there's an awful lot between what Mark has very nicely termed "abstract weasel words" and low level details. We have to make sure that the RSWG/RSAB (which, after all, after integrating wide review comments,... should reflect community consensus) can express the needs of the community at a level the community is comfortable with, and at a level that makes the job of the LCC/RPC easier, not more difficult. Also, do we want to have strictly separated groups, e.g. a policy group and a tools group, with extremely clear but very thin lines separating their responsibilities? A few mails ago, in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/wwo239eievM6y6C-7J5DENo3wGc, Mark said he's happy to limit the discussion to Web presence. I think that's a good example, but another example is the RFC XML format. If some changes to that format are needed, does the RSWG/RSAB discuss them to result in something purely abstract, and then much of the same discussion is rehashed in some tools group or list? Or is there a better way to organize this? Regards, Martin. 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o10sm9791972qtx.43.2021.11.07.09.49.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 09:49:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <111ca9a7-a321-6313-5f48-29dd087f3a35@nthpermutation.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:49:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 17:49:18 -0000 On 11/6/2021 6:01 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 5 Nov 2021, at 21:08, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/5/2021 4:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB members have more an incentive to seek feedback more widely. >> This is where I'm not getting you. Community last calls go to the community regardless of who issues the calls. I would expect there will be one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from the RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty automatic. I expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in addition to reviewing community feedback and the RSWG response for sufficiency. >> >> Or? > > For the reason that we don’t ask WG chairs to manage an IETF-wide last call, but rather task the IESG with doing it. If you want to get broad community feedback, you make it the responsibility of those representing the broader communities in the process to ask for feedback. In this case, that’s the RSAB, as the stream representatives. And that's where you run off the rails.  The RSWG and the RSAB BOTH represent exactly the same broad community.  As I noted before, the RSWG is NOT an IETF WG and the reasons for passing on last call to the IESG from the WG do not apply here - basically the RSWG and the RSAB have exactly the same domain of interest. If you disagree with that statement, I'd like to understand how you think how the RSAB has an enclosing domain to the RSWG given ALL the various discussions we've had. > > And yes, in many cases, that devolves into rsab-secretary@ sends email to the same set of lists the RSWG chairs would have sent email to. But for the more interesting cases, the RSAB members – as community representatives – have the incentive to seek out feedback from their community more broadly than the RSWG chairs who are not embedded in that community. > In what scenario would you expect the RSAB members to ignore their community (and the RSAB collectively ignore the Community) when evaluating a document and its "legislative history" including the last call info? I don't see it and I'd be surprised if you could craft such a scenario. Of course, its always possible for the RSAB to be composed of a lazy set of gits (github pun crossed with british slang intended) and completely fail to meet their responsibilities, but I fail to see how placing the last call in their hands including the responsibility for pushing it back to the RSWG to fix things (which AIRC doesn't map well to the permitted vote types) would prevent that in any case. Later, Mike From nobody Sun Nov 7 09:49:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331073A0DCE for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:49:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ddeCvmWEQhiB for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A183A0DD3 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id i13so10603772qvm.1 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 09:49:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oMa41H4UKl4tpDEenLUwCKyPGS9nK6p/IwSfT0W9Ut8=; b=AY7otKxzn6NINJYC8u4xIip47GDqaAbwQrdYwlcOyF28eC8h2ctCvPwEr5weGf349t tB2J+x176pcx1trx90VEf/MTqYtUq0R9j/sZeCnz4BXtEwuuH1M2+FAJE66MPjE0VAi7 ZBXYoR8nBywwqrB1I7i0EDOcqamtIoq3QFS9ybE4/3A5zMGuFuDCOoVfTYnd9bY3H86k aAQLi0QBqM9EcN4rztrXDimY72N8oAqU3kW7WvUrpKAQKo4owR05H9RVVHVkzNLY9O7X 03KTr1A1z8h+ByGC0/XrtfkCzIrjb6Wok7CwpmfiQpF0E2VejGdC7YnXIQEORnDjjr2p HKIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oMa41H4UKl4tpDEenLUwCKyPGS9nK6p/IwSfT0W9Ut8=; b=5hGlops0cwNR8h2Y4GigWshw6k/eA2BdCJvuSpkbuEuaE13kNsmQHPNcFNGnzij/BL 6qhF+3UTut6+/J8gORuMwzI0rvaMO98iToUukx5Md/FxW5X2bUQXOOM02xHZ0WMdrAep Mk6i6K9AWP2Jx7SAqu3SpWUitesHQK7pQQQLtCH6q3wB2oS8Ye/ntBOJfzST+5zPNgv3 XJ5v55ReKNiYXYQqq+og7E8Hi/x4ZfBb7Bm23o+taTCRAWHznrB4B/VN2yLme6HXyFCI ItAoFNTX2To3dFjBUaDOxVN4MerAd5MH3yUQtFJ86aNT1dY+Agd3p9blrF54bYhE92MT sxAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NySrTXk9d1nnWsPaYfg0UTB/Ni+uQtuDuQmopujp/p9Uyh4Mx SMxazF0sjKmkbXjZca5axfifyA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzI3NawWVAlvzQ1coW7FSnxp+ZpZRhj6NORQ+RFvMI97ELtzCl/jziPAE4MIrIz5yjXATfeQw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:19e9:: with SMTP id q9mr13026506qvc.52.1636307366842; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 09:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11sm10136472qta.50.2021.11.07.09.49.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 09:49:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:49:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 17:49:32 -0000 On 11/6/2021 3:42 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > the > approving body should issue the last call. Otherwise, we don't have > effective checks and balances. This is both cargo cult (doing it the way we've always done it because that's the way we've always done it) and a non sequitur.    And still not supported by any valid analysis. So - let's assume we make the change I propose and the RSWG does: 1) Write the document 2) Issue WG last call 3) Resolve WG last call either simply or requiring another round of debate and the submission of a new document and a new last call. 4) Issues community last call 5) Resolves (or fails to resolve) community issues and either goes to step 2, step 4, or step 6 depending. The RSAB does 6) Evaluates the output from step 5 and approves or refers the document back to the RSWG to *really* address the community issues which are right there on the public mailing list for all to see and can't be ignored by the RSWG. So I'm still missing how "we don't have effective checks and balances" given that the RSAB still has to evaluate the output of the community last call. Would you care to explain a scenario where C&B fails here? Later, Mike. From nobody Sun Nov 7 10:03:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403893A0E29 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:03:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZftC_rWziAe0 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85F163A0E24 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1A7I33MH725534 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Nov 2021 19:03:03 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636308185; bh=Zj1gQSlG18NKUWu2Myi9GMTg7ljlpcFX2bVtjZmkDtg=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=WHQJ7pQr6my3RrC5K4HUbwYmghAbybIRivhrnF7S74TKNxJsvoZhJ170mmrhpRunx UVDFTyk3OggV7uCUDmwc6CEmWjxFnnzDWavIG96DDI0mRSVAKWlpWb/p3gskOVYmMx mCGj8Qu1lGcZnBgzP/NT1aZYIBa773yUjEYDc4og= Message-ID: <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 19:03:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------4Z3meJkMAHtz1ctkurGAWCHe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 18:03:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------4Z3meJkMAHtz1ctkurGAWCHe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ispMRFoTHXICZIF553JmgtPG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: --------------ispMRFoTHXICZIF553JmgtPG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Mike, perhaps we really do have some problem in the draft, because you and I are reading it differently.=C2=A0 Please see belo= w.

On 07.11.21 18:49, Michael StJohns wrote:


The RSAB does

6) Evaluates the output from step 5 and approves or refers the document back to the RSWG to *really* address the community issues which are right there on the public mailing list for all to see and can't be ignored by the RSWG.
So I'm still missing how "we don't have effective checks and balances" given that the RSAB still has to evaluate the output of the community last call.


What the draft says is this:


6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a community call for comments as further described in Section 3.2.3.

7. If substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal.If substantial changes have been made, additional community calls for comment should be issued by the RSAB, and again comments considered by the RSWG.

8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

Nowhere does this draft state that the RSAB evaluates community comments.=C2=A0 In particular, that reason doesn't appear in the enumerated reasons an RSAB member may object.=C2=A0 Currently, as t= he draft reads to me, the RSAB can only consider a lack of consensus within the RSWG itself if someone appeals to the RSAB on that basis (failure of process).

But this actually supports your logic.=C2=A0 The reason that the I= ESG sends out a call is that THEY evaluate community feedback, not an IETF WG.

If we want the RSAB to evaluate community consensus, the draft should be far clearer on that point.

Eliot

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Community last calls go to the = community regardless of who issues the calls. I would expect there will = be one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from = the RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty = automatic. I expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in = addition to reviewing community feedback and the RSWG response for = sufficiency. >>>=20 >>> Or? >>=20 >> For the reason that we don=E2=80=99t ask WG chairs to manage an = IETF-wide last call, but rather task the IESG with doing it. If you want = to get broad community feedback, you make it the responsibility of those = representing the broader communities in the process to ask for feedback. = In this case, that=E2=80=99s the RSAB, as the stream representatives. >=20 > And that's where you run off the rails. The RSWG and the RSAB BOTH = represent exactly the same broad community. As I noted before, the RSWG = is NOT an IETF WG and the reasons for passing on last call to the IESG = from the WG do not apply here - basically the RSWG and the RSAB have = exactly the same domain of interest. If you disagree with that = statement, I'd like to understand how you think how the RSAB has an = enclosing domain to the RSWG given ALL the various discussions we've = had. I strongly disagree with that statement. The RSWG comprises the small subset of the community that cares about = process issues. The chairs of the RSWG have the goal of concluding the = work done by that group, and have little incentive to seek input from = the wider community. The RSAB members are appointed by the broader community, and represent = that broader community in the RSWG. If they believe the RSWG is doing = something that warrants more extensive community review, they have an = incentive to seek out that wider review.=20 Having the RSAB run the community call for comments is an essential = check against an RSWG that=E2=80=99s unrepresentative of the broader = community. >> And yes, in many cases, that devolves into rsab-secretary@ sends = email to the same set of lists the RSWG chairs would have sent email to. = But for the more interesting cases, the RSAB members =E2=80=93 as = community representatives =E2=80=93 have the incentive to seek out = feedback from their community more broadly than the RSWG chairs who are = not embedded in that community. >>=20 > In what scenario would you expect the RSAB members to ignore their = community (and the RSAB collectively ignore the Community) when = evaluating a document and its "legislative history" including the last = call info? >=20 > I don't see it and I'd be surprised if you could craft such a = scenario. The scenario I was crafting was the exact opposite, where the RSWG is = ignoring the wider community. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Sun Nov 7 10:16:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBDC3A0F22 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:16:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38ZMTItvBaTE for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 889073A0F16 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id w4so10838618qtn.2 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 10:16:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=V3976FJCt+fvlEE5gukXUePV400XSbFWhpsVeS/a9MQ=; b=jFgxpJSBDMKYuzWqU+pFZQHRyl7GWR4vyrm8aU0zxXm8iAeUncSUsUSAOpQmuIOxf2 UEuexRzoGOgjNaRwxC4d2DZMJZKvGlEWts70Xvyromv1H/3UP6foMN9IPDKKoSR9ihA/ BVwKo8JYLleROtDvh7uRL+avKcBkyY3QeRfT0eLwpwsCkD8gQm0+k2sS7fsVpaQ0UvyB 2iDIOTwW2Zm4SrPwucEitKWUDTpbIAbTnHyxHy45gExD2R8Sfe9zBewuE7LsokxVZ0VH 28ggmf7Wb6dgl/vaJRBdDKWNp+aBn/5eXbPXFty/gF2xWC2OByqCdbxo9a/HPBSxO26n xfew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=V3976FJCt+fvlEE5gukXUePV400XSbFWhpsVeS/a9MQ=; b=qYmbi2Y0fdCxXlbI8HXkQt86Dq2Isy354UzDvBpCkLGp0N+2eS87lvrkeSUQ7qKotU S9h8PaM9qn4MjeLYURJeuvYq4mO9YmssTBDlqjfZqENopPFg/5e168CUVV4BGLDrUyfJ cbEkA18NIVVMfd7lmFUEMaPJLpKA3SxCNJuRVL8IXVMWb0e4JFYLc2hoynrBrRuyhKEx XHZQv7MiVflkLvyairppTVPm1X/HQy3VnISSbH8a1KfMyx/25plYTUSnqaJC8U9Zn4bD B4OokhYqL01PHnfUCVPGM4WxJLI/QVV2e73O0KfoyvLI9ItdVwUkfky4vSvstWh0Q241 47qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hUY4o9zDKZdaB6C75nN98yPp4a98XwW+YR1oh5ZsDAoTcXNNV MvNPulk+QRSFUcye1YN53bKa9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxzRYOBVT7i7w6iZTRc1Ycu+emz+uiIQW13bUR9kL2WAiXibaA5EGkh7gJZTroKkQ6/Mp38pQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:578d:: with SMTP id v13mr77528379qta.61.1636308998895; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 10:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y25sm8966063qkj.11.2021.11.07.10.16.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 10:16:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------dfUub5lcHEVSp2sfBaKwYiJ2" Message-ID: <72cc0bfe-406d-33cc-8e1e-6e555d7b513a@nthpermutation.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:16:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 18:16:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------dfUub5lcHEVSp2sfBaKwYiJ2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/7/2021 1:03 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Mike, perhaps we really do have some problem in the draft, because you > and I are reading it differently.  Please see below. > > On 07.11.21 18:49, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> >> The RSAB does >> >> 6) Evaluates the output from step 5 and approves or refers the >> document back to the RSWG to *really* address the community issues >> which are right there on the public mailing list for all to see and >> can't be ignored by the RSWG. >> So I'm still missing how "we don't have effective checks and >> balances" given that the RSAB still has to evaluate the output of the >> community last call. > > > What the draft says is this: > > >> 6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a >> community call for comments as further described in Section 3.2.3 >> . >> >> 7. If substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again >> consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At this >> same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal.If substantial >> changes have been made, additional community calls for comment should >> be issued by the RSAB, and again comments considered by the RSWG. >> >> 8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit >> the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration. >> > Nowhere does this draft state that the RSAB evaluates community > comments.  In particular, that reason doesn't appear in the enumerated > reasons an RSAB member may object.  Currently, as the draft reads to > me, the RSAB can only consider a lack of consensus within the RSWG > itself if someone appeals to the RSAB on that basis (failure of process). > > But this actually supports your logic.  The reason that the IESG sends > out a call is that THEY evaluate community feedback, not an IETF WG. > > If we want the RSAB to evaluate community consensus, the draft should > be far clearer on that point. > > Eliot > If you're saying that the RSWG can ignore community consensus and the RSAB has to approve the documents anyway, then there *really* is a problem with the document. As far as the above is concerned, who issues the call in (6) has no difference on what the RSWG has to do in (7). Later, Mike --------------dfUub5lcHEVSp2sfBaKwYiJ2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/7/2021 1:03 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Mike, perhaps we really do have some problem in the draft, because you and I are reading it differently.  Please see below.

On 07.11.21 18:49, Michael StJohns wrote:


The RSAB does

6) Evaluates the output from step 5 and approves or refers the document back to the RSWG to *really* address the community issues which are right there on the public mailing list for all to see and can't be ignored by the RSWG.
So I'm still missing how "we don't have effective checks and balances" given that the RSAB still has to evaluate the output of the community last call.


What the draft says is this:


6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a community call for comments as further described in Section 3.2.3.

7. If substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal.If substantial changes have been made, additional community calls for comment should be issued by the RSAB, and again comments considered by the RSWG.

8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration.

Nowhere does this draft state that the RSAB evaluates community comments.  In particular, that reason doesn't appear in the enumerated reasons an RSAB member may object.  Currently, as the draft reads to me, the RSAB can only consider a lack of consensus within the RSWG itself if someone appeals to the RSAB on that basis (failure of process).

But this actually supports your logic.  The reason that the IESG sends out a call is that THEY evaluate community feedback, not an IETF WG.

If we want the RSAB to evaluate community consensus, the draft should be far clearer on that point.

Eliot

If you're saying that the RSWG can ignore community consensus and the RSAB has to approve the documents anyway, then there *really* is a problem with the document.

As far as the above is concerned, who issues the call in (6) has no difference on what the RSWG has to do in (7). 

Later, Mike



--------------dfUub5lcHEVSp2sfBaKwYiJ2-- From nobody Sun Nov 7 11:38:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA283A12CB for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 11:38:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7pr3A1wurlZq for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 11:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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Ng+zx8UxTgD20X773tG8HaWxSWaHYCr7S8RpXQA0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 20:38:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> <72cc0bfe-406d-33cc-8e1e-6e555d7b513a@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <72cc0bfe-406d-33cc-8e1e-6e555d7b513a@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------K061JriEaeLHc2dFkg0aAmIK" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 19:38:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------K061JriEaeLHc2dFkg0aAmIK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------y6g3wvlPkmm810flbkj2erLr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Michael StJohns , Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm13307256pfu.33.2021.11.07.11.40.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) To: Colin Perkins , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> <111ca9a7-a321-6313-5f48-29dd087f3a35@nthpermutation.com> <2A99DFFE-22F6-4646-9D59-19B3BCCFE127@csperkins.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 08:39:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2A99DFFE-22F6-4646-9D59-19B3BCCFE127@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 19:40:12 -0000 On 08-Nov-21 07:13, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 7 Nov 2021, at 17:49, Michael StJohns wrot= e: >> On 11/6/2021 6:01 AM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 21:08, Michael StJohns wr= ote: >>>> On 11/5/2021 4:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>> But if the RSWG is getting insular, and RSAB members have more an i= ncentive to seek feedback more widely. >>>> This is where I'm not getting you. Community last calls go to the c= ommunity regardless of who issues the calls. I would expect there will b= e one or more mailing lists that will get the last call on things from th= e RFC series process and those will be well known and pretty automatic. = I expect the RSAB to seek input from their constituencies in addition to = reviewing community feedback and the RSWG response for sufficiency. >>>> >>>> Or? >>> >>> For the reason that we don=E2=80=99t ask WG chairs to manage an IETF-= wide last call, but rather task the IESG with doing it. If you want to ge= t broad community feedback, you make it the responsibility of those repre= senting the broader communities in the process to ask for feedback. In th= is case, that=E2=80=99s the RSAB, as the stream representatives. >> >> And that's where you run off the rails. The RSWG and the RSAB BOTH re= present exactly the same broad community. As I noted before, the RSWG is=20 NOT an IETF WG and the reasons for passing on last call to the IESG from = the WG do not apply here - basically the RSWG and the RSAB have exactly t= he same domain of interest. If you disagree with that statement, I'd like=20 to understand how you think how the RSAB has an enclosing domain to the R= SWG given ALL the various discussions we've had. >=20 > I strongly disagree with that statement. >=20 > The RSWG comprises the small subset of the community that cares about p= rocess issues. The chairs of the RSWG have the goal of concluding the wor= k done by that group, and have little incentive to seek input from the wi= der community. >=20 > The RSAB members are appointed by the broader community, and represent = that broader community in the RSWG. If they believe the RSWG is doing som= ething that warrants more extensive community review, they have an incent= ive to seek out that wider review. >=20 > Having the RSAB run the community call for comments is an essential che= ck against an RSWG that=E2=80=99s unrepresentative of the broader communi= ty. Exactly. That is the check and balance. IMHO what the draft already says = is appropriate and does not need need changing. Brian >=20 >=20 >>> And yes, in many cases, that devolves into rsab-secretary@ sends emai= l to the same set of lists the RSWG chairs would have sent email to. But = for the more interesting cases, the RSAB members =E2=80=93 as community r= epresentatives =E2=80=93 have the incentive to seek out feedback from the= ir community more broadly than the RSWG chairs who are not embedded in th= at community. >>> >> In what scenario would you expect the RSAB members to ignore their com= munity (and the RSAB collectively ignore the Community) when evaluating a=20 document and its "legislative history" including the last call info? >> >> I don't see it and I'd be surprised if you could craft such a scenario= =2E >=20 > The scenario I was crafting was the exact opposite, where the RSWG is i= gnoring the wider community. >=20 From nobody Sun Nov 7 12:11:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A604D3A0BC1 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VXzzuW6R2em0 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B683A0AB1 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id v15so18314698ljc.0 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=08MW9LHlQMZXsylf9zfbF6PVvvF0eHRgPldkc9w5pkM=; b=fwm4ZT0MXGMQ8q2hmZepyYaLxZ9RsBs6CzvAKAPMRa8ebPbVJWeKiLO/MsU8Pbn7hC lGzF7a195XqR66Nc1WiMd5H1NfJQnvSXHldvESmdSxQKxTCCl1mDdDAI1Cy+Sf3y2nWc zxrGNxvwyu92IN89KQ9dJVVZttsVtb1UWJ8mvv+GNWcKg6IOh9OQeYTMWpxq53ciUPg/ /8HZJ8D6oKj6VqBQ3D3ulZuM66sTYokGJyHR46A32gDwI9sJzCewOyu6h13pzXY4NRyu fXOk6kUCrMqB+GhaGwyob4heUbRpACtVvkuHfnuYX3v7If40+J5/fwtg7z9lyyqbqG4w jmUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=08MW9LHlQMZXsylf9zfbF6PVvvF0eHRgPldkc9w5pkM=; b=LPXXIQ5MOvDf9aQ2d3zEOsIe2UucqT6VAYS2dp5VqTt+ifkU+DcMLlrAl5s0a63/H9 o9oGsKgw1oD7dv240JfnoTPRVFa00a9PkvyiSYB1ybuldKzHVxHDFzkJuhRFwfJelmqo HlsrxaHLRTcVwS5B1SkSLHhA4p4otBF4KCDCD4jGtwJlwrXPgyzKT/oVlYyJJpaEprLX H1Z/88BC6X5JYrrL9Az674IHcplFmW8jvQH+qgPdXwdGRWsPdTCuvk2dxlidNv21GiIP zRVJRrAEoKRYY7n43ox+TSgL7EHR/wYTKt26/Z9s47ad+ek9KsK1LTUztnJBQyX60pUL abpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PbAq6VLysmV8lElCOTYeSu118xHr1cX2OMZyjcs26we+3fXte ezRt2AZAntUmNu0zSOveEL8XYH/q8sEDnKr8pKMc7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzoQGBKPy7e3gP/n3kUrA9aEanHHzGx7lBVuCNzZmhpJ75++rg2uw0DZMZGMby31pLTWha11Sbo5kcY8UtbBzg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:96c5:: with SMTP id d5mr39372959ljj.176.1636315873657; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 12:11:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <69aca95a-ef9e-4b1d-92c4-fd9d1ca73c2c@lear.ch> <047323cc-9c31-20eb-299a-fc1df0f335ca@nthpermutation.com> <02146455-6D66-49C2-A734-835ADD34A1D4@csperkins.org> <45822a7b-f6cc-257c-e1ff-421cbff8458e@nthpermutation.com> <33487319-0448-4AC0-8B9D-387EC2125A35@csperkins.org> <57d4f2fd-4fec-6968-4f48-7ce4d7bf66cf@lear.ch> <72cc0bfe-406d-33cc-8e1e-6e555d7b513a@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 15:11:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Colin Perkins , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063d28b05d0387a30" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 20:11:27 -0000 --00000000000063d28b05d0387a30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m on my iPad so this is short. I consider not resolving community consensus (or for that matter not asking for and incorporating community comment) to be a failure of process and as such is one of the reasons the RSAB can reject a document. Mike On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 14:38 Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Keep in mind: I am not taking a position on what SHOULD be, but merely > stating what I think the document says. Please see below. > > On 07.11.21 19:16, Michael StJohns wrote: > > > > If you're saying that the RSWG can ignore community consensus and the > > RSAB has to approve the documents anyway, then there *really* is a > > problem with the document. > > > In my interpretation of what is written, nowhere does the RSAB get to > interpret community consensus. The RSAB only passes judgment on a > document based on potential harm to a stream or potential harm to the > overall health of the series, and not whether there is community consensu= s. > > Community members who object need to be counted for/against the > consensus by the RSWG chairs. The RSAB only gets their say if the > chairs have clearly erred in their calling of consensus, one way or > another, and their decision is appealed. > > If we want the RSAB to interpret community consensus during the > community call, we should say that. We do not currently do so. > > Eliot > > Eliot > > > --00000000000063d28b05d0387a30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=E2=80=99m on my iPad so this is short.

I consider not resolving community conse= nsus =C2=A0(or for that matter not asking for and incorporating community c= omment) to be a failure of process and as such is one of the reasons the RS= AB can reject a document. =C2=A0

Mike

On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 14:38 Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi Mike,

Keep in mind: I am not taking a position on what SHOULD be, but merely
stating what I think the document says.=C2=A0 Please see below.

On 07.11.21 19:16, Michael StJohns wrote:
>
> If you're saying that the RSWG can ignore community consensus and = the
> RSAB has to approve the documents anyway, then there *really* is a > problem with the document.
>
In my interpretation of what is written, nowhere does the RSAB get to
interpret community consensus. =C2=A0 The RSAB only passes judgment on a document based on potential harm to a stream or potential harm to the
overall health of the series, and not whether there is community consensus.=

Community members who object need to be counted for/against the
consensus by the RSWG chairs.=C2=A0 The RSAB only gets their say if the chairs have clearly erred in their calling of consensus, one way or
another, and their decision is appealed.

If we want the RSAB to interpret community consensus during the
community call, we should say that.=C2=A0 We do not currently do so.

Eliot

Eliot


--00000000000063d28b05d0387a30-- From nobody Sun Nov 7 16:02:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAA53A12F8 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTvgpY9NGLIe for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94A8E3A12F6 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id h23so15208895ila.4 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tWcDt7hHICC8mWlm1+FBtGom2VPYMg/juTMAFMrXzdw=; b=gJikt3Vve6YxI6W6IlQOzNmWYs3FlWEfDmgvY2SyAX9jybOzFZxZZtrskQPoJeD11X YGp5eFD6dBe+hCD8wIhzjPQ5UaR/1BzugFdRS/6xTDJXHHXSSBlOzgX/Pk1pizvPNjoE mh6N/1NBGJ57amAA4LjcCNyrTQQjKFU2OkGRCSK3TLXKT6vXV9Rjyh47Dbe7uzUwvxOC gClNdkSLPiN7d7Xozrm2TouuCVL8Z4dybJFnmECSfOLoerIQhXqL9kfwE2hoK58GXdMA Ac4dHfU55GMtl9orOoxzuv3hi0ZmEK8lrnn/Lx5d06yWOe92+UWOvKbe0tJDmuDkxSv2 2aEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tWcDt7hHICC8mWlm1+FBtGom2VPYMg/juTMAFMrXzdw=; b=zqlYTP8H7b9eByIrCN1VmkKx/v2w7MnM6FXABzakSciORR+johl+WsPjocrFALIid2 ppIxD0rUvgujob2xm0+0GHMBKe6oqx/rGFMyUNCsF34edY6UNxZSIUfenwVdtnvQRNtR bt4miL3szIBTWSGHud/gujunEppgFB68xlRgfypk2w/UMJQyzH1EKxJCFgSEwkGNnGzN UbAAOs4w1uDkhVyYpI2kygx53hXmtroFp5MbKU8H32o2mxERiY9GE6I7BQ9v5RYHx8j0 cEa4uyUJ2oF+gLoEflyON9jZ+YQJqsLetpLOWbHN8FRrxidOfdG99inNcdP3GI5zMLyb XdBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5308vale/LJ3V/7xWA2sgXMVnbJt4GCKHRsqLDd0ip8gLwZIgycO ibRC8LfaO8k/Gt6UFPEHszQEWqwkJp5cQ0bjBBkkJU5PX3Q5ww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVz5gaCku8k4nk5LoJ9qU3xQN8UZaRdO4oCfcYVpLP6SWKmEoeFEdK8E/TEqnlKJ+FVgEOUymdBK5R9m5XAME= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c08d:: with SMTP id h13mr44160797ile.60.1636329733884; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 16:02:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:01:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008625a805d03bb413" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 00:02:20 -0000 --0000000000008625a805d03bb413 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This document seems like it's generally in pretty good shape. Some comments below. * The RSAB considers those proposals and approves them, returns them to the RSWG for further consideration, or declines to publish them, as appropriate. It's actually not quite clear to me that the RSAB can decline to publish as distinct from just sending the proposal back. What would that consist of? * If issues arise with the implementation of particular policies, the RPC brings those issues to the RSAB, which interprets the policies and provides interim guidance to the RPC, informing the RSWG of those interpretations. Is this appealable? The RSWG shall operate by rough consensus, a mode of operation informally described in [RFC7282]. Please do not cite 7282 in this way. The content does not have IETF consensus. Just remove the cite. S 3.1.2. * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member or a member of the community selected by the IESG * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or a member of the community selected by the IAB Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That seems to be what it says. The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during the chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its members. shall choose? S 4.2. * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to the editing and publication process. * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such policies could include matters such as the exact XML elements and attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs. More generally, such policies could address the readability and presentation of information in RFCs. I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. S 5.1. The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. The selection committee will take into account the role definition (https://github.com/intarchboard/ program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as well as any other information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or employment of the RSCE. This link will be a problem, as it is not stable. On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 1:13 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > This begins the two week last call on > draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1] This call will run through Friday, > 5 Nov 2021. Please send your comments to this mailing list. We will > address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of > course on list). > > Brian and Eliot > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000008625a805d03bb413 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This document seems like it's generally in pretty good= shape. Some
comments below.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0The RSAB co= nsiders those proposals and approves them, returns them
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 to the RSWG for further consideration, or declines to publish
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 them, as appropriate.

It's actually not quite = clear to me that the RSAB can decline to
publish as distinct from just s= ending the proposal back. What
would that consist of?


=C2=A0 = =C2=A0* =C2=A0If issues arise with the implementation of particular policie= s,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RPC brings those issues to the RSAB, which i= nterprets the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies and provides interim guidanc= e to the RPC, informing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RSWG of those interpret= ations.

Is this appealable?


=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSWG shall o= perate by rough consensus, a mode of operation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0informally d= escribed in [RFC7282].

Please do not cite 7282 in this way. The cont= ent does not
have IETF consensus. Just remove the cite.


S 3.1= .2.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for the IETF s= tream, an IESG member
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a member of the community = selected by the IESG

=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representati= ve for the IAB stream, an IAB member or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a member of= the community selected by the IAB

Could we simplify this to be &quo= t;any person selected by the IAB"? That
seems to be what it says.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among it= s members using a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0method of its choosing.=C2=A0 If the chai= r position is vacated during the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0chair's term, the RSAB= should choose a new chair from among its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0members.

s= hall choose?


S 4.2.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding t= he file formats that are accepted as input to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the e= diting and publication process.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* = =C2=A0Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents.=C2=A0 In the context of the XML vocabulary ([R= FC7991]), such
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies could include matters such = as the exact XML elements and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attributes used to ca= pture the semantic content of RFCs.=C2=A0 More
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 gene= rally, such policies could address the readability and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 presentation of information in RFCs.

I actually don't think = this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on
either of these matters. Th= ey should be decided by the community.


S 5.1.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Th= e IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendati= on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=C2=A0 The selection c= ommittee will take
=C2=A0 =C2=A0into account the role definition (https://github.com/intarchboard/=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as w= ell as any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0other information that the committee deems neces= sary or helpful in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0making its decision.=C2=A0 The IETF LLC = is responsible for contracting or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0employment of the RSCE.
This link will be a problem, as it is not stable.

On Fri, Oct 22, = 2021 at 1:13 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch= > wrote:
= Dear Colleagues,

This begins the two week last call on
draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1]=C2=A0 This call will run through Frida= y,
5 Nov 2021.=C2=A0 Please send your comments to this mailing list.=C2=A0 We = will
address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of
course on list).

Brian and Eliot

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z3sm13578523pfh.79.2021.11.07.16.08.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 16:08:19 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <064554b2-42d2-0bcd-3a0b-57d5de05b8c5@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:08:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 00:08:28 -0000 On 08-Nov-21 13:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSWG shall operate by rough consensus, a mode of oper= ation > =C2=A0 =C2=A0informally described in [RFC7282]. >=20 > Please do not cite 7282 in this way. The content does not > have IETF consensus. Just remove the cite. Better, cite RFC2418, in particular https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc241= 8.html#section-3.3 Brian From nobody Sun Nov 7 16:15:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D0B3A1329 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:15:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nR3ee8lbapvF for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0C713A1324 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id i11so6012697ilv.13 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 16:15:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4Pt2oo+9csaHKK50ghL1u5QBLBGSZ6X6asI/VFVeUMA=; b=bGPz5wk7D3jGXc+8aURIWU12iXi19UlB15yzDfEdoPdi8g5Tnj74whzsRrsIarrM8t 9AQuBmHtTu29v4kmveZ/7FZqMt+q//38TzY+yH6MdHcZ92oMukRnBAOXE1n+BXLg9JNU H2IdiOFexV+8gg1rKgQ5DaZdUJ45vhgFPAJoYQuSWossn5ng2jBqH4bpwsxlmf0tfLS+ gnLkuUnOrVwdOzpvacAFDDdSVxyGuXKEw0oOjj9ycJUh+Ku96Ncr4h8qA4PhG+oSNNRJ QUIdDMVZ3YIxyuw7fezXyA4dCHtu+1hm90VcimRcF3WzuAtg6yVcCG6NLacp1Q8fQQh/ q43g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4Pt2oo+9csaHKK50ghL1u5QBLBGSZ6X6asI/VFVeUMA=; b=UbjAlIeAvExTbCyP9irqNJhB/JmWgmo3/eTldHR6/5JzMNOJLUP19PVaHsuuc2Ce4s mRl+NigJ7e1ItL8xPJv9TbkwFD+Ept3o1/Bv2qW72TEBvikhDxVQxYsFo4xdcxZ0tdf5 kfWPphLGrjRe28r+eJZN+85rix7GHFZYPhLrKndy4gGtdRG+3Ix+he+OkazCOF1n0VSG 2fJHR9HhuMcegaBTHiBcHUn/+sg6LI+yDqVyHl0Lyt60DhsfLJphSId0VNiiA1x0HQ9w FCkSLv35naCjEoZ1VxSeHXeVzx+zeh9IgbIR9Uj70Ewm4GA/Hi8LZe+E7j/SIw20ZZ59 y70g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312yL+2Uutrr4HAqSfc/Bx41OdjGldLei0gp9/4FFSfYG7pRoFp RgYSqfb6PaGZ+UD/LL0lG3ALotilQQt9tOvCyBCf2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzDA2wPQBBo45zLMyEHHfkbXqq+BTy7ISaqF49oZmRo3iND0of6cpvQ0G9AkI5FdB9KYKoXZocJWYz+RGRxmjI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b8a:: with SMTP id h10mr52185958ili.219.1636330521555; Sun, 07 Nov 2021 16:15:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <064554b2-42d2-0bcd-3a0b-57d5de05b8c5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <064554b2-42d2-0bcd-3a0b-57d5de05b8c5@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:14:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000079080c05d03be397" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 00:15:27 -0000 --00000000000079080c05d03be397 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agreed. Thanks for reminding me of that. On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 4:08 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 08-Nov-21 13:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > The RSWG shall operate by rough consensus, a mode of operation > > informally described in [RFC7282]. > > > > Please do not cite 7282 in this way. The content does not > > have IETF consensus. Just remove the cite. > > > Better, cite RFC2418, in particular > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2418.html#section-3.3 > > Brian > > --00000000000079080c05d03be397 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed. Thanks for reminding me of that.

On Sun, Nov 7,= 2021 at 4:08 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08-Nov-21 13:01, Eric Rescorla wro= te:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSWG shall operate by rough consensus, a mode o= f operation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0informally described in [RFC7282].
>
> Please do not cite 7282 in this way. The content does not
> have IETF consensus. Just remove the cite.


Better, cite RFC2418, in particular https://w= ww.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2418.html#section-3.3

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

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--------------HPoyYrxj4Oyl8cA8xVfG4D6F-- --------------0Kh0Vad5gYUQdnhbFkDeHvQA-- --------------sMI6UTQwz3lBu0hTIK1UvDWz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGIvK4FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejP6 PAf+OkjKyVTrGDIRt3aSTVAmE15mJKjmUiBx5ioAiazRPkm68ha+tuWSlGimxHojtQ/KK4D8I3o3 HEbAx86ylutuYEoXJaBtjfzeta+XLPQSAIYyh+N1MeI5uORvRd5bXFdcQfYo0ZFOqssrwHZxaOwl EAqAaXCs+JdQGC/HYsqhsU2Cq8JTP7sCBAW+quDJJ4D0SyE9Iyeyfo6ezAKmWwcKyMFMsGY7WMi6 QWlPjq6ZW8n2Uavh9YX+lhSXfDe10PjnyFi//kSF6+F1gxu3DDAquKTTlV1BTrF+brsUn6MaM62N 9CUrceyN4KG88TA2J1Ke/FI7df13lAra985HdzTvdQ== =kEvE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------sMI6UTQwz3lBu0hTIK1UvDWz-- From nobody Sun Nov 7 22:32:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 06:32:10 -0000 Hello Eric, others, A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to my comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do that). On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > * If issues arise with the implementation of particular policies, > the RPC brings those issues to the RSAB, which interprets the > policies and provides interim guidance to the RPC, informing the > RSWG of those interpretations. Interesting 'find'. This 'interim guidance' seems close to the 'statement' discussed in another thread. The main difference seems to be that this is only on request. So in theory, if RSWG/RSAG create an RFC that asks for a "subscription form of access to newly publish RFCs", then the RPC could ask "did you mean RSS or Atom or something else". But that's predicated on the LLC not already having made the decision. > S 3.1.2. > > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member > or a member of the community selected by the IESG > > * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or > a member of the community selected by the IAB > > Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That > seems to be what it says. Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think what we wanted was something close to * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably   an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the community selected   by the IESG (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or decide it's not what we meant. > S 4.2. > * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to > the editing and publication process. > > * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published > documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such > policies could include matters such as the exact XML elements and > attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs. More > generally, such policies could address the readability and > presentation of information in RFCs. > > I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on > either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. I agree, mostly. I wouldn't want the RSWG/RSAG to have to discuss each and every XML element and attribute. But I would expect some of the discussions to get fairly close to that. My example would be the extension of the allowed characters in RFCs. This is both something that has happened recently (in relation the overall RFC　history) and that might happen again in the future (allowing a wider range of non-ASCII characters in a wider range of locations in an RFC with less ASCII explanations). Let's assume that everybody here agrees that the general policy change (allow more than only ASCII in RFCs) is something the RSWG/RSAG would have done in an Editorial RFC. Having been involved in the relevant discussions, I cannot imagine such a thing to have happened without discussing things in quite some detail, in order to address the many and varied concerns that people have/had. And I cannot imagine the resulting RFC to have just read "allow more than only ASCII in RFCs", because that would have left the fear of going too far in many of the participants. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Nov 8 03:28:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9703A0C7F for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:28:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-k9tv_Cabpc for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82D1E3A0C82 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id m9so3329670iop.0 for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 03:28:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LCq8Y6npgrNOMk+zO6nGEdCYkhwF3yECp//fHStEHEg=; b=vwpcm5D0mRFzIDbyOu4D9SSbZ1DQLIwmLyx4QsjNFXxLZY67TiVBzRMHf9p2iAcKyl 6HinuuNrXv0tjDI7aCRoOQJ0D5sSY+TnmROrJSoIvuZ4DC0V3hLdbWba8meEzxxQ5ltL XkTkF21RwfDmdlsOOqtOzdj9CJKmpc1RUkFNqUJ0WyisUlLy/mC21WmCtQ6eXlPmuZ+N M90CA5dbL8/eA/HOGg/fq96xc1oyDj1ozLymD8DZ+6hgcFSKago2u4InvGduKCZF5q3b wzwx6St5oEXTYjXsAKzxuP0QdxXWByobh4gm7kGSVsBHbGJYEtRnwrkIyr2TussR4TxH 7hCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LCq8Y6npgrNOMk+zO6nGEdCYkhwF3yECp//fHStEHEg=; b=So/XzodOXJ47/JpK+UcFs/nCwwMnjWiY+fg8Gah7B+Vg3O0MIFrTwlpoiKyAxcgs8O HrSpZnwnZrz+ijdie8c9C7UzqAQbx0MbGsWquA+cEbdat00lpwoIiOHTlyiz7yQdy4tN rWe/UFCSe1lO7AqhVJmlb70C/PFxe82xtSo/WnWVQUC1aNbkcSanSxrZZPStx6rt3s7R 2vc3Gu0LfS2PgLOFPdXy94rOy7XuIYsUWZWIQl/ONPQZNpze4bU40ORNMRB1BKobKMM0 eIlEfvAVfPzMbzShMQJmxZymOpJjDceDP9s4j6BejeZ635XYWoRZLuO6YK1QiMDX1NS7 THow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325KUDGv/L4xlCh+2NG+EvuHtnLXRxdOhvcPgSR3F5/aUx23TZN Ft3ActluOt9jFdP7dYB8YyyxyncE296hEYkA/d1kXA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtgxJYfTbtijkqA0d5R3/3Toj+a3zEp4IMIy5XCZKj5B+tc6XkCrmvcUUqLUA87/oRKlt3eAIL3wzRhAXClwE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:734d:: with SMTP id a13mr24216884jae.113.1636370902780; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 03:28:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:27:46 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061a35205d0454ac4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:28:30 -0000 --00000000000061a35205d0454ac4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:59 PM Eliot Lear wrote: > Thanks, Eric. I am opening three additional issues based on your > review. Please see below. > > On 08.11.21 01:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > This document seems like it's generally in pretty good shape. Some > > comments below. > > > > > > * The RSAB considers those proposals and approves them, returns the= m > > to the RSWG for further consideration, or declines to publish > > them, as appropriate. > > > > It's actually not quite clear to me that the RSAB can decline to > > publish as distinct from just sending the proposal back. What > > would that consist of? > > Issue 132, not editorial. > > I think you're identifying an issue in terms of what happens if there is > a vote, and there are not three votes to approve a proposal (bottom of = =C2=A7 > 3.2.2). This document doesn't say what happens. I think what we mean > to say is this: > > > If a vote is taken and the proposal is not approved, it is returned to > > the RSWG. The RSWG can then decide whether to attempt to make further > > changes that would overcome RSAB concerns. > > That would match the intro text you quote. > Yes, this seems reasonable. I suppose that there might be some cases where this is impossible because the RSAB objects to the whole concept of the document, but even then it's possible some massive revision would be acceptable and determining whether it's the "same" document doesn't really matter (ship of Theseus, etc.) > > > > > * If issues arise with the implementation of particular policies, > > the RPC brings those issues to the RSAB, which interprets the > > policies and provides interim guidance to the RPC, informing the > > RSWG of those interpretations. > > > > Is this appealable? > > Martin has addressed this in his proposal for issues 93 and 94 > You mean https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101/? This seems to actually be mnot, so I wasn't sure. > > > > S 3.1.2. > > > > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member > > or a member of the community selected by the IESG > > > > * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or > > a member of the community selected by the IAB > > > > Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That > > seems to be what it says. > > Issue #133. Editorial. Consistency across streams should be maintained. > I agree that this is editorial, but the other bullets read differently anyway. > > > > > > The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using = a > > method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during the > > chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its > > members. > > > > shall choose? > > Issue 130. Editorial. > > "chooses"? I think Peter is avoiding 2119 language. > Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. With that said, I note that this document doesn't cite either 2119 or 8174. Should it? > > > > > > S 4.2. > > * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to > > the editing and publication process. > > > > * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published > > documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), suc= h > > policies could include matters such as the exact XML elements and > > attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs. More > > generally, such policies could address the readability and > > presentation of information in RFCs. > > > > I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on > > either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. > > Mark has opened PR#101 on this. Please also see his comments. > Yes this seems reasonable. -Ekr > > > > > S 5.1. > > The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from > > the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation > > to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. The selection committee will tak= e > > into account the role definition (https://github.com/intarchboard/ > > program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as well as any > > other information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in > > making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or > > employment of the RSCE. > > > > This link will be a problem, as it is not stable. > > Peter has changed this in his working copy. > > Eliot > --00000000000061a35205d0454ac4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:59 PM Eliot = Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Thanks, Eric.=C2=A0 I = am opening three additional issues based on your
review.=C2=A0 Please see below.

On 08.11.21 01:01, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> This document seems like it's generally in pretty good shape. Some=
> comments below.
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0The RSAB considers those proposals and approves t= hem, returns them
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the RSWG for further consideration, or decline= s to publish
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 them, as appropriate.
>
> It's actually not quite clear to me that the RSAB can decline to > publish as distinct from just sending the proposal back. What
> would that consist of?

Issue 132, not editorial.

I think you're identifying an issue in terms of what happens if there i= s
a vote, and there are not three votes to approve a proposal (bottom of =C2= =A7
3.2.2).=C2=A0 This document doesn't say what happens.=C2=A0 I think wha= t we mean
to say is this:

> If a vote is taken and the proposal is not approved, it is returned to=
> the RSWG.=C2=A0 The RSWG can then decide whether to attempt to make fu= rther
> changes that would overcome RSAB concerns.

That would match the intro text you quote.

<= div>Yes, this seems reasonable.

I suppose that the= re might be some cases where this is impossible because
the RSAB = objects to the whole concept of the document, but even then it's
<= div>possible some massive revision would be acceptable and determining whet= her
it's the "same" document doesn't really mat= ter (ship of Theseus, etc.)


>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0If issues arise with the implementation of partic= ular policies,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RPC brings those issues to the RSAB, which in= terprets the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies and provides interim guidance to the RPC= , informing the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RSWG of those interpretations.
>
> Is this appealable?

Martin has addressed this in his proposal for issues 93 and 94

You mean https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rf= ced-future/pull/101/? This seems to actually be mnot, so I wasn't s= ure.



>
> S 3.1.2.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for the IETF stream,= an IESG member
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a member of the community selected by the IESG=
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for the IAB stream, = an IAB member or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a member of the community selected by the IAB
>
> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"= ;? That
> seems to be what it says.

Issue #133.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 Consistency across streams should be mai= ntained.

I agree that this is editorial= , but the other bullets read differently anyway.

<= br>
=C2=A0
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its mem= bers using a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of its choosing.=C2=A0 If the chair position is va= cated during the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from= among its
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0members.
>
> shall choose?

Issue 130.=C2=A0 Editorial.

"chooses"?=C2=A0 I think Peter is avoiding 2119 language.

Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. Wit= h that said, I note that this document doesn't
cite either 21= 19 or 8174. Should it?


>
>
> S 4.2.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the file formats that are acce= pted as input to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the editing and publication process.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the final structure and layout= of published
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents.=C2=A0 In the context of the XML vocabu= lary ([RFC7991]), such
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies could include matters such as the exact = XML elements and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attributes used to capture the semantic content o= f RFCs. More
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally, such policies could address the readab= ility and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation of information in RFCs.
>
> I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide o= n
> either of these matters. They should be decided by the community.

Mark has opened PR#101 on this.=C2=A0 Please also see his comments.

Yes this seems reasonable.

=
-Ekr

>
>
> S 5.1.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including m= embers from
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the community, that will be responsible for making a reco= mmendation
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=C2=A0 The selection co= mmittee will take
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0into account the role definition (https://github.c= om/intarchboard/
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as = well as any
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0other information that the committee deems necessary or h= elpful in
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0making its decision.=C2=A0 The IETF LLC is responsible fo= r contracting or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0employment of the RSCE.
>
> This link will be a problem, as it is not stable.

Peter has changed this in his working copy.

Eliot
--00000000000061a35205d0454ac4-- From nobody Mon Nov 8 03:30:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69C63A0C7E for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:30:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRKVJC4zpusu for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1E23A0C90 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id j28so16497497ila.1 for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 03:30:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R3KU46BYoFWSmJbC1ifYpZL9994q4QgMn7LMQkd62Mw=; b=KLrmtCLneqMOx6Ct5DspvdKVoOi32toSR0XHDAMkKQAQ0vYLWSY408IoCppnZGtAV9 r9YEuamQhClZoWoD6xfiu90O7P/zQ0YfItb2c2wp6RF+DGPJVc8meaeJ1P0cf0/Mywor TtUy3Phvbd37XR7nNv0ZwL12s14LIsLwJJOPawdt0wqTnLnYzVwceECosn/UkuSWRpkY 5RXs+Krm/xzyjgnzD6kGHOiAe3kSmRcJ2CpwRk1PeOBAsfXWXio5ErkOb5+Gjbmv9EHg FHApuqhHlJaMHnxNDj9YgTkakfSq/4NiTN8gJLUu0krWZRnmUz4tFfiSeTLYxscO4ftN cZWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R3KU46BYoFWSmJbC1ifYpZL9994q4QgMn7LMQkd62Mw=; b=Z9Tc35Fyj7QOR4enKh3sUGlOoGe8GyJR65jZa049tksOYgMTOUy+Hrt5nbkUy3q+vG D/48q4V5j87qzojkuHAQ31BeMXcSiZ4UY4mcmp8K6uSEHzJCbVnDD6pWjdxgTO+eaK7n S2T+0+cWzey2oLQwHAwZIkPIkFwinWQkBW9nOSh9IF7z2EsJCyvWHEllrGW2WFgJOIKS U8YHgomF0E/vDPrV+/y0J4f+G4GceL6m65gQS//U0qKiO0McRUD7SRYRXtoj8k/QzzAC n8GhclkfdxKUeCPz2Vrhsd72XAa/kfdiZx/eJBCaAo2bt+5EKAhyT1aAaBrC5QZn7rv3 Cuzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532JTAWa5/5baKuyyA8YPFgvIGDaRZsisftR8ejZ1WQuQg21r4lN NI2gpXzfa4dBsf9MmDReOPcI/tYFMvnKLvKKikPA+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMNAQm07SzRpv0YBKzuPJx6MAVrno31evLKcdE57Xrb2wqy43Ad0lYfJm7W1GwwfeemZ7Xu0BJldLmHPFa+yg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:20ea:: with SMTP id q10mr29942608ilv.10.1636371003008; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 03:30:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 03:29:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005b093205d045501d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:30:09 -0000 --0000000000005b093205d045501d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 10:31 PM Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > S 3.1.2. > > > > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member > > or a member of the community selected by the IESG > > > > * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member o= r > > a member of the community selected by the IAB > > > > Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That > > seems to be what it says. > > Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think what > we wanted was something close to > > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably > an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the community selected > by the IESG > > (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or > decide it's not what we meant. > I don't think the current text expresses a preference, and I don't think we should do so. > > S 4.2. > > * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input t= o > > the editing and publication process. > > > > * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published > > documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), su= ch > > policies could include matters such as the exact XML elements an= d > > attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs. More > > generally, such policies could address the readability and > > presentation of information in RFCs. > > > > I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on > > either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. > > I agree, mostly. I wouldn't want the RSWG/RSAG to have to discuss each > and every XML element and attribute. But I would expect some of the > discussions to get fairly close to that. > Well, I also don't want the RPC to decide it unilaterally. So perhaps we need some other process for that (which RSWG could invent). -Ekr --0000000000005b093205d045501d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 10:31 PM Marti= n J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoy= ama.ac.jp> wrote:

On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> S 3.1.2.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IETF s= tream, an IESG member
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a member of the community selected by th= e IESG
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IAB st= ream, an IAB member or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a member of the community selected by the I= AB
>
> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"= ;? That
> seems to be what it says.

Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think what we wanted was something close to

=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the commu= nity selected
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0by the IESG

(and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or
decide it's not what we meant.

I do= n't think the current text expresses a preference, and I don't thin= k we should
do so.


= =C2=A0
> S 4.2.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=C2=A0 Policies regarding the file formats that ar= e accepted as input to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the editing and publication process.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=C2=A0 Policies regarding the final structure and = layout of published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents.=C2=A0 In the context of the XML = vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies could include matters such as the = exact XML elements and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attributes used to capture the semantic con= tent of RFCs.=C2=A0 More
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally, such policies could address the = readability and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation of information in RFCs.
>
> I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide o= n
> either of these matters. They should be decided by the community.

I agree, mostly. I wouldn't want the RSWG/RSAG to have to discuss each =
and every XML element and attribute. But I would expect some of the
discussions to get fairly close to that.

Well, I also don't want the RPC to decide it unilaterally. So perhaps= we
need some other process for that (which RSWG could invent).

-Ekr
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FpwnLhkezQ2/yH/it0qdxdMq8Osz6Q7wL4HaXufgL59Zg80edatznwjPDHLZ+taJ71 yV21rJJs6kUPHl2RXUKgOT0pVG7APK2D1K69dNTA= Message-ID: <0d2e2499-da59-47cf-0211-6ac9b455ed03@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 14:39:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------3qcMQolD70hSKRWJLtBoLeI0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 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Hi EKR,


On 08.11.21 12:27, Eric Rescorla wrote= :


Martin has addressed this in his proposal for issues 93 and 94

You mean ht= tps://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101/? This seems to actually be mnot, so I wasn't sure.

That's different.=C2=A0 What the document says is that process iss= ues are appealable to the IAB.=C2=A0 What Martin is proposing is that w= hen it comes to interim decisions, the content is appealable to the IAB.




>
> S 3.1.2.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for th= e IETF stream, an IESG member
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a member of the community select= ed by the IESG
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for th= e IAB stream, an IAB member or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a member of the community selected = by the IAB
>
> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That
> seems to be what it says.

Issue #133.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 Consistency across streams= should be maintained.

I agree that this is editorial, but the other bullets read differently anyway.


=C2=A0
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from= among its members using a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of its choosing.=C2=A0 If the chair = position is vacated during the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new = chair from among its
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0members.
>
> shall choose?

Issue 130.=C2=A0 Editorial.

"chooses"?=C2=A0 I think Peter is avoiding 2119 language.
=

Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. With that said, I note that this document doesn't
cite either 2119 or 8174. Should it?

Reading it back, probably.=C2=A0 Others?

Eliot



>
>
> S 4.2.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the file formats= that are accepted as input to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the editing and publication process= =2E
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the final struct= ure and layout of published
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents.=C2=A0 In the context of = the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies could include matters such= as the exact XML elements and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attributes used to capture the sema= ntic content of RFCs. More
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally, such policies could addr= ess the readability and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation of information in RFCs= =2E
>
> I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on
> either of these matters. They should be decided by the community.

Mark has opened PR#101 on this.=C2=A0 Please also see his comments.

Yes this seems reasonable.

-Ekr

>
>
> S 5.1.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF LLC will form a selection committe= e, including members from
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the community, that will be responsible for= making a recommendation
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=C2=A0 Th= e selection committee will take
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0into account the role definition (https://github.com/intarchb= oard/
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) a= s well as any
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0other information that the committee deems = necessary or helpful in
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0making its decision.=C2=A0 The IETF LLC is = responsible for contracting or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0employment of the RSCE.
>
> This link will be a problem, as it is not stable.

Peter has changed this in his working copy.

Eliot

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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q30xyQBeci1F for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 06:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EE303A0C92 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 06:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id f10so17043940ilu.5 for ; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 06:15:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kOw6hPEQei1aQOx5siWWGkzaNNNo3QOnR6puS1JO9AE=; b=2MIBBUNYLvgtWSKYwVheOk5m2uVGYzu9i4hWLdLtEEvu271j3octgTK2GeO15mP7Zs 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzD6GL58LoIVcS4bWe1UgDp7bx53Po24zfA9KXJNVTV9+vi/3xlEDUaoy2aG55JiDJW/aBG1O7T2vAgJG2hNXA= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c051:: with SMTP id o17mr184132ilf.276.1636380949267; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 06:15:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <0d2e2499-da59-47cf-0211-6ac9b455ed03@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <0d2e2499-da59-47cf-0211-6ac9b455ed03@lear.ch> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 06:15:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032dfe405d047a1c3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 14:15:56 -0000 --00000000000032dfe405d047a1c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 5:39 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi EKR, > > > On 08.11.21 12:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > Martin has addressed this in his proposal for issues 93 and 94 >> > > You mean https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101/? > This seems to actually be mnot, so I wasn't sure. > > That's different. What the document says is that process issues are > appealable to the IAB. What Martin is proposing is that when it comes to > interim decisions, the content is appealable to the IAB. > i don't see that proposal. Can you send a link? -Ekr > > >> > >> > S 3.1.2. >> > >> > * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member >> > or a member of the community selected by the IESG >> > >> > * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or >> > a member of the community selected by the IAB >> > >> > Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That >> > seems to be what it says. >> >> Issue #133. Editorial. Consistency across streams should be maintained. >> > > I agree that this is editorial, but the other bullets read differently > anyway. > > > > >> > >> > >> > The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a >> > method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during the >> > chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its >> > members. >> > >> > shall choose? >> >> Issue 130. Editorial. >> >> "chooses"? I think Peter is avoiding 2119 language. >> > > Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. With that said, I note that this document > doesn't > cite either 2119 or 8174. Should it? > > Reading it back, probably. Others? > > Eliot > > > >> > >> > >> > S 4.2. >> > * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to >> > the editing and publication process. >> > >> > * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published >> > documents. In the context of the XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such >> > policies could include matters such as the exact XML elements and >> > attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs. More >> > generally, such policies could address the readability and >> > presentation of information in RFCs. >> > >> > I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on >> > either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. >> >> Mark has opened PR#101 on this. Please also see his comments. >> > > Yes this seems reasonable. > > -Ekr > > > >> > >> > S 5.1. >> > The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from >> > the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation >> > to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. The selection committee will take >> > into account the role definition (https://github.com/intarchboard/ >> > program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as well as any >> > other information that the committee deems necessary or helpful in >> > making its decision. The IETF LLC is responsible for contracting or >> > employment of the RSCE. >> > >> > This link will be a problem, as it is not stable. >> >> Peter has changed this in his working copy. >> >> Eliot >> > > --00000000000032dfe405d047a1c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 5:39 AM Eliot = Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi EKR,


On 08.11.21 12:27, Eric Rescorla wrote:
=20


Martin has addressed this in his proposal for issues 93 and 94

You mean https://github.com/intarchboard/p= rogram-rfced-future/pull/101/? This seems to actually be mnot, so I wasn't sure.

That's different.=C2=A0 What the document says is that process i= ssues are appealable to the IAB.=C2=A0 What Martin is proposing is that whe= n it comes to interim decisions, the content is appealable to the IAB.


i don't see th= at proposal. Can you send a link?

-Ekr
<= br>




>
> S 3.1.2.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for the = IETF stream, an IESG member
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a member of the community selected= by the IESG
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0As the stream representative for the = IAB stream, an IAB member or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a member of the community selected by= the IAB
>
> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That
> seems to be what it says.

Issue #133.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 Consistency across streams s= hould be maintained.

I agree that this is editorial, but the other bullets read differently anyway.


=C2=A0
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from a= mong its members using a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of its choosing.=C2=A0 If the chair po= sition is vacated during the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0chair's term, the RSAB should choose a ne= w chair from among its
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0members.
>
> shall choose?

Issue 130.=C2=A0 Editorial.

"chooses"?=C2=A0 I think Peter is avoiding 2119 langu= age.

Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. With that said, I= note that this document doesn't
cite either 2119 or 8174. Should it?

Reading it back, probably.=C2=A0 Others?

Eliot



>
>
> S 4.2.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the file formats t= hat are accepted as input to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the editing and publication process.<= br> >
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Policies regarding the final structur= e and layout of published
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents.=C2=A0 In the context of th= e XML vocabulary ([RFC7991]), such
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 policies could include matters such a= s the exact XML elements and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attributes used to capture the semant= ic content of RFCs. More
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally, such policies could addres= s the readability and
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 presentation of information in RFCs.<= br> >
> I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on
> either of these matters. They should be decided by the community.

Mark has opened PR#101 on this.=C2=A0 Please also see his comments.

Yes this seems reasonable.

-Ekr

>
>
> S 5.1.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members from
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the community, that will be responsible for m= aking a recommendation
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role.=C2=A0 The = selection committee will take
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0into account the role definition (http= s://github.com/intarchboard/
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md) as well as any
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0other information that the committee deems ne= cessary or helpful in
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0making its decision.=C2=A0 The IETF LLC is re= sponsible for contracting or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0employment of the RSCE.
>
> This link will be a problem, as it is not stable.

Peter has changed this in his working copy.

Eliot

--00000000000032dfe405d047a1c3-- From nobody Mon Nov 8 11:35:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8033A0DA1; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 11:35:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmzd1ncH-deV; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 11:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 597663A0D9B; Mon, 8 Nov 2021 11:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id n8so16527911plf.4; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:35:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3C7EaweiE8DyC4HGzeuLagYBu3nAweACCHVSKlqggvM=; b=hNc+73gUuCoGtvzaYV3kpmIZ452JJoRIUDAEyhS2vSQudK6NyfRUaXW/F1oWNLwNsF OEAMsjbFuBi2MmFk7ESJC2cCm91C0i5tYGfrLjMcZ2nuHc9qFVYhZsNM3v2zNuWW7okn 0a6Qa4jTROlhagxn09afH+25p0anrCUKhNE/ZOmxY8eEz6GcI9OZWh9WPjzEdLXiS742 PSdmj7H5pktQuFMG8oPhslOLUn6FqKcdb+qyol7LG1/3T8B3oTTfl8V97BF628UkIZc0 XCBIf7JlLmw0N7w9viKCJXmjuztaAC9wyAAds/c/+22Sr1oVE1aRzODMGE+FiQvVJTJ9 q8jA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3C7EaweiE8DyC4HGzeuLagYBu3nAweACCHVSKlqggvM=; b=Bne2Db4eoEXjTXNsXIPF8YDZdxcEAmedoHqr26uHNyyLxQnW0OzVqM9wcW9YbChcPV MN3SliCPrQG8SfqqCHpX4IOZNCCaHbgM4PULLOSCvciCmu2xHagr+U4Yep9wpqz0CYtH YWWBVxex3hIqRdWdr61Fwy8yTEBDdkzBJRXxQ75+8idCuwH4syuJe3u5mrc9mmFZYu8w VMATQKzDsGELOCxwHsRTNP+VGep92ebBZcJCE58bEqojmxewXhBrTbNJMFRkWhroUMdb bPE46JxsD/JDJn2qXlPWT9NmwEuOnt/1qS2Yes2EiP7i/apyTWFQBW2mosLjiNmQ9dHS c4lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531zH2GhCk3NmiNkV2wcJQfzSZZp4/jGhp0bVm30c6fJHqGaHxi4 E0BjBLmzwOHunB245/YiOm4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrZ37zkwRBOYA0XxcCl4T6wBTq7tTryL55MeV/NiQPd+yBXBO1qbutxNVlwkvbKg+Q4UzqrQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b909:b0:13a:2d8e:12bc with SMTP id bf9-20020a170902b90900b0013a2d8e12bcmr1687592plb.6.1636400124562; Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i15sm6934340pfu.151.2021.11.08.11.35.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:35:24 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <07b39320-9c22-5a21-9e82-573263f53dd9@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:35:18 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 19:35:29 -0000 On 09-Nov-21 00:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > "chooses"? I think Peter is avoiding 2119 language. > > > Well, it uses "shall" elsewhere. With that said, I note that this document doesn't > cite either 2119 or 8174. Should it? > Please not. The English language is perfectly suitable on its own for procedural documents. Brian From nobody Tue Nov 9 14:11:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8823A11BD for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:11:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WH40eCi5bC1 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C072D3A11B6 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id h23so343307ila.4 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:11:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8JodVqWdCOmTOB+DSkQpp7hSyvYWmzCfHNxJG9lCWTs=; b=aUA3oRJJD1g2FVkztkZIPg1/imM4+cdE80m20PhUwla7VKQIdL36IuIy790h1elgrW FOhH8d1XHSGKs9Xkb4y7q6SJvGAj1tWjQiV0zEAXXzUTBDStdpqZqztiI3G5YfO8rC/R N07sxoVkaNH3BWqtxPc6+/W3bd9jI/vulcwkM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8JodVqWdCOmTOB+DSkQpp7hSyvYWmzCfHNxJG9lCWTs=; b=hlkcSxpIVrhEG5klR9a+4Udry3Olqynr9VSJgoWGwf2BDJYjvjfIoM0KY+EsEaEhgE 7HG/ZWWpGOzYR1mAvq+JI/FoMk0eF65h6yTPsNMlvmgv9VtmjE3w8M4jpJUwggyNLncq NhvW5NLTp6TQa6sBV9kH4Qco/pHS5TNOY2FImM2goOe0L5iTgEUODzxGFTADzzBC0r85 fRw8omuIS+yfAHJkK+WMM2AyBrxlYyi05b3dsFIXRoyHPQzqmEIb6WpMKgwgRv9o3v5l sdcL5OCplGrZIXrPDLLIsqEKsVpc+3JFJ/jDifRswYzFiC1ROsiIx8tsGakgptQEVcd/ Hbng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339EpGr96B2Hxc9xVEeqdE5PTBw0dh9uW5vW3fcAA2QOST6W62r 9nvmw67+antoyVQx/OD/yPrMow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyAyNtRCKH3zsgcILBpKrzf/XKkSNJkPSInww8DxpX7HtogxHg6b3nT+X2sJqzzGOL5uOpylw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:2169:: with SMTP id s9mr8350804ilv.213.1636495905049; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x5sm11661621iov.38.2021.11.09.14.11.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:11:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:11:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind References: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org> <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:11:49 -0000 On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> >>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate >>>> discussion issue to the list. Here it is: >>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the draft >>>> - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE. >>>> For the RPC vendor one we say: >>>>        The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will >>>> consist >>>>        of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected by the >>>>        IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers. >>>> For the RSCE one we say: >>>>     The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including members >>>> from >>>>     the community, that will be responsible for making a recommendation >>>>     to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. >>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director >>>> explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers. >>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And if >>>> so, why? >>> >>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might >>> comment, but >>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC that >>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each >>> commitee. >> >> Yes either or both, no preference. >>> >>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream >>> managers in >>> the loop is essential for the RPC case, >> >> I agree. >> >>> and having the community in general >>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE. >> >> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee who >> understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because they >> are > representatives of one group or another. > > > Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was just > tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn't mean > you'd choose randoms. From my perspective as document editor, I'd say the difference was not intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree that we want to follow the same or a similar process for both selection committees. The RSCE text was written later and I think is more reflective of list discussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying that over for the description of the RPC vendor selection committee as well. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 14:26:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5003A11E1 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:26:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnAI_9fReciw for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912803A11E0 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id l8so383927ilv.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:26:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NbK5uLBClCi5R/wd3dgwj5843E9g8tUPDikRE6QxGM8=; b=a5XjVOjR+YeUuOMtsvnrSeFyaVDKmRwz6mBUyIZywdDQYpU59PqDFrHm3Xl/lSXonV 9VHeD0P6p3PVDPt+Cub2ezgoEZXMDs9tZymI8lJ+HMxy8TCSAanhN4Xw/p2mc3jGHnco NFbskC5iQK+m+elri++j7m9XK9edoQdCbd9VQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NbK5uLBClCi5R/wd3dgwj5843E9g8tUPDikRE6QxGM8=; b=p+JH16jU+CQGKvMJ665sOOnvw2OgJconn4r7eeCWjN23uUP8oblycGBRU0p1ItcS7E W/zVWEq/yOceRK6gPLALG35wSV1trCxdVEyujj93Xf9Wwc7GxrPH65ARMZo7dDKvG2VR KZqR7GQtUcCrtsoPFzQMyMkXCwfk7cMnuIL6ypoxGDn1xGtT6guvb3TXBqEYWeftnE+J 2NT1Cmft7y3pDDtXa4Az95ReLqQNr6ZE2nL82ZVwGFu+C2G9UDmpZO8doXsgS7BM5nwG Y7Fu8IvIerpF6Krr/YE6yP6z9BwxV28E14TGY5uww/gBLBQAedv801oPNyErAoF97D6s NAtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338GfchuMV7dubRFfGkKRzG7OlJCoh8F4IOGoBgKT3ZYt2VU2Mt KSK8fLJ3aBV9feR9Sbu273EbLxsRqPKmQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyOVC+U3xQh/df34qXa202pwuHrnj4J6xClXnvcu3odkrdA9mYizOB6FzV9kB/Lrg3hUdbdDA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1ca6:: with SMTP id x6mr7676048ill.225.1636496787598; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m7sm12829298ilu.58.2021.11.09.14.26.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1ad2afd9-ef07-0fe2-e56d-170dd1498d23@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:26:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <1AB8D2DC-7405-40E2-A992-128C6814D721@ietf.org> <5c573508-7968-e86a-6ca9-65ed850415cc@cs.tcd.ie> <5ACB96F5-27C2-41F9-9DBC-90477C4699E3@kuehlewind.net> <9bc06675-d4ee-3d04-b2f6-f0cee835ab1e@lear.ch> <826110622993ADC9314D88DD@PSB> <590fb46a-cd2e-c52f-5498-c161ae64cf01@nthpermutation.com> <974E27F9-0774-4AFC-A711-73502B8740A7@kuehlewind.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <974E27F9-0774-4AFC-A711-73502B8740A7@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Ultimate authority [was: Re: [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:26:31 -0000 On 11/5/21 3:14 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I proposed in an earlier mail to replace > > "RPC under authority of the IETF LLC” > > With > > "as contractually overseen by the IETF LLC” > > The second phase is already used once in the document and I think it would be more correct to use it everywhere. As document editor, I think this is an improvement. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 15:16:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C803A089C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:16:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGGj0rGbsZoO for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 925753A08AE for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id v23so630686iom.12 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:16:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=upR0uhRhl4dsgphiisWoSUl0SenDqJ1rqrLPbBHCAes=; b=WSgivkMdjt+frYs4IEL00KJ0bl4OfxCCl/Nw3N2+8KrNIPKIq8eQs/JhavGukyBpV/ H93GX3HibIqEUrHoC5QtcHncsin4uFqky/0mJWOtkC2d9ZPXZevoyOXIrqVSE52G1Z0/ GiPK//A1kcXwt56UD8CEfRiSgIx+Mw/iQ35Pc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=upR0uhRhl4dsgphiisWoSUl0SenDqJ1rqrLPbBHCAes=; b=RkCRUE4ysS9dBEUTh4RrOV5qqA9K4PHXnAUJbanpnEPIhmQF5x/gZqoaXzr1aIFmcv aW+463N3mQRGVc7Zkm+P0V/YLOtbTMgR4Rkm3rgUzkQQm7I8mh6OFrMxTAJ2gdt6eKLv MWeLQ9ScIA/Ft+qCisfHFHm5tmgOZMFal5kvj0NjX2/WPR5ztDqxyhm+YE5TO4sUqOsb Kyg4rsKPKsZwWONNJjSTe4D57hktsntqC4mEaYosFGD/dzUF3+TZ18DpU+q0tJibGUls Z7HA0jUEg4gsSvPTN/mLxaNLM5ZLTS8uS+++bNWLQU5QEbnT5vQRy+hVlGDteW0NkoPl +msw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QP78IpH0/KSWz17VWuQmPQGL9ryDedLl17tScRZ0gBR1Rr8QG zvuHHFt4YTrU9qvEB5VgiVKjKg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkezp25+XO/7RNz/vMXfznhEAAO4IBdYroWxp/qPng7vkzXPVkh/XcMk6vWLMw7lp+0Sp3Kw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:d84:: with SMTP id l4mr8996208jaj.30.1636499761345; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z9sm5603727ile.29.2021.11.09.15.16.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:16:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:15:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:16:08 -0000 On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about appeals. > > For #93, I suggest: > > OLD: > However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general policy. > NEW: > However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a more general policy. I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably people or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks, document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, etc.). The bit about referring the matter to the RSWG seems mostly fine, although I'm not 100% sure about the order of events (let's say the parties to the discussion realize only after the fact that perhaps there's a more general policy issue involved - is it an appealable offense that the RSAB didn't refer the matter to the RSWG first?), nor about the wisdom of always involving the RSWG in issues that could be quite picayune (we haven't always done a good job of steering clear of micromanagement - e.g., I recall very long discussions not long ago about whether there should be one space or two spaces after a period!). > For #94, I suggest: > > ADD: > Decisions of the RSAB can be appealed on grounds of failure to follow the correct process. Where the RSAB makes a decision in order to resolve a dispute (or for other reasons??), appeals can be filed on the basis that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established by the RSWG. In other cases, disagreements about the conduct of the RSAB are not subject to appeal. > > That is, we allow people to appeal if the RSAB is *wrong*, but we have to allow the RSAB to resolve disputes. The policies will sometimes not cover things and decisions need to be made. People can take their dispute to the bodies that have delegates on the RSAB as a last resort. Also, people can attempt to convince the RSWG to set a policy that is different than what the RSAB might have decided in the heat of the moment. It seems to me that (1) appeals aren't usually successful so why encourage them (2) sometimes a decision needs to be made with relative alacrity (3) it's more important to figure out whether we need a general policy and to get that policy right than it is to second-guess or appeal a decision covered under (2). Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 15:50:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2053A0C85 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:50:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tw4Qi8Yu1jIl for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69C43A0D60 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id l19so600214ilk.0 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:50:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BIas5v2EBU9szlN63/d9uzLUS74KebkTDQbyjqNC3z8=; b=YDIrmdZwBN1ODfGx8YxWljhh2G5Fp6p4k+NhFAsSrKxvhZE3VyAlp6UiGjr+qgIy14 qv0FhVZczG9xvDwDgF369WeKwEvIA4+J/spMW9t7pkvYfCo3WkUMqsMS+r00hky/q9vw HKOKDYxWL0WNaKSOf+zxOGJ3cBpXfWrecSw+E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BIas5v2EBU9szlN63/d9uzLUS74KebkTDQbyjqNC3z8=; b=TB0SISzOuDJJfCyWRy6N3js5HebZZC5d3q1Jtg4ZO6m9vz13XaG8HDICg+tAjTGcYW ym4u1MnH5TIvsGaHeWgir8YGsROsBD9ziDFQ9WgBL43sHYUzdadUpyBpDSY/5i+cTxhN 9eKKAOHfYaqwXoBIOHnMHxu91vcPMYHvAFEzFW9F/dVWYNYzcQVtyG8YGv2VmZr7KzqF 8w+zcUaM2Y9+4yBFzLD3U0TmdnMhR+Di6+I4sMTxgFWm7ueFuOrtSkM0ik9ok0nw5Eud GSt1POqDTd9saY2uEnh3RBDwGG+E2BJHRwJ5WEiz4vGn22IedhVVJyTPohgYATIZxoEl /S9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532wsZnoYq12tYJyr6KRLPCCtKPbK+VprDwinjTYiPTA/htgbdH0 EezLVLYAPrkHh5tbqQwk/Kbxkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJztOfjUS2y7qu4OrBmFqk4Up5lM5oHZKpJ4XZewAdHnTTxxn5TEa5cIvkkZC7nrVQRo5lB1dA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1526:: with SMTP id i6mr8712725ilu.3.1636501801415; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a18sm7685059ioe.13.2021.11.09.15.50.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:50:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8442d27a-b9ec-0bff-37cd-d850a4479d42@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:49:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <20211028163649.19F772F30CCF@ary.qy> <8cb0851a-6e03-607c-50d6-e6c6d990901e@gmail.com> <763ee0af-efcc-dbc5-2342-967a17c12062@taugh.com> <6FE95589-82A1-49E6-9867-89EBD5A30772@ietf.org> <6AC80437-227F-4560-A98D-0FFB2F548E02@mnot.net> <334d762f-c5d6-e2d4-a3c4-d148f9fcfff3@lear.ch> <2E0AEA25-63E0-4407-B53A-1512362197DD@mnot.net> <9AC81474-000B-43E4-84B0-45CEC4E7D293@mnot.net> <380a4fd5-01e8-f5fc-90af-3e19dadbc275@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <380a4fd5-01e8-f5fc-90af-3e19dadbc275@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:50:16 -0000 Coming to these threads late, I see a few things... On 11/2/21 1:27 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Mark, > > Let's at least for the moment accept your goal that you would like to > have a means by which community members can directly contribute to > improve the RFC Editor service.  Let's also accept that the RPC is going > to need to be involved in seeing to the above goal.  Let's posit at > least a modest mechanism to implement that goal in the form of a review > process to accept changes, and a transparency report to indicate what > those changes were. 1. As Alice and Jay both pointed out, the RPC will formulate work plans in concert with the LLC and communicate those plans to the community within the RSWG. This is an opportunity to provide input regarding these more implementation-specific priorities and identify any policy-related issues that such priorities might raise (say, that the RFC Editor website could provide improved accessibility to visually impaired users). 2. People have bright ideas about things that are more implementation specific (e.g., regarding CSS or layout for the RFC Editor website) and they should have a way to suggest those ideas in a relatively transparent way, which I *think* is rfc-interest. From the perspective of the RSWG, I think the main reason for this transparency is to ensure that if such a suggestion raises a policy issue, we can identify that issue more clearly and bring it to the RSWG. It seems to me that these things will happen naturally via the existing or envisioned mechanisms described above. Do we need to specify these matters in greater detail in the document before us? I see no reason not to, at least for the avoidance of doubt. > In an earlier email, I had proposed some text, which I gather people > didn't prefer.  What would be the policy language you would want in This > document to enable/require such a thing?  We can argue over the words > "MUST" or "is requested" but let's get into the right ballpark, if we > can.  That way at least there is some proposal that people can consider. Eliot, as I understood it your proposal was: OLD * If requested, provide expert advice to the RPC and IETF LLC Matters on which the RSCE might be consulted could include the following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]): NEW * Provide expert guidance to the RPC and IETF LLC Matters on which the RSCE might provide guidance could include the following (see also Section 4 of [RFC8729]): (Note: in the bullet point I prefer "guidance" to "advice" so that it ties in with the very next paragraph.) This seems fine to me, but it doesn't fully address the topic at hand. I'm happy to formulate more precise text to address (1) and (2) if we think that's needed. 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5sm12153742qki.39.2021.11.09.15.54.15 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:54:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:54:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:54:22 -0000 On 11/9/2021 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established > by the RSWG. For about the 50th time - the RSWG does not establish policy, it proposes it.     Someone might argue that the RSAB misinterpreted an Editorial RFC, but who determines what the proper interpretations of such documents are if it isn't the RSAB? So a big NO on your proposed language. Mike From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:03:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C91C3A0C75 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:03:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nj08BCrvEyyH for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70FF93A0C5B for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id e144so772313iof.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XFVTql8usoZvZKNUUX68kHPQ1L/vlf1Ez1avS/sU/ho=; b=U5/Ei6wzNzp0RP+9Q2jj6FpyMBW29nenEtG73UF8Nb4TBhf+c9Lx8eqau/D13Vtrqx pJKPeT1hdosIcO5G3h/44n2pS0Y6Un+XIkDXy/cFC4LzaS0lv4mEr6Ugt/C5eXsYg0Lt 2Xq7PeP4cq7nXcbyv9pP5M3z8UknvhZZqFMlQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XFVTql8usoZvZKNUUX68kHPQ1L/vlf1Ez1avS/sU/ho=; b=Ma6UYEg3L+jh0wvlKErzS+Z0YBfqh+oO8RYP+LC/whUrffPMphiCiMnNOCJILg0ulI MgSZy/Uypl2pxYUGEjStuS1p+3xYLr8pk0lSb2LhT+pj0ZWcJMFHyfwrqHPUTRG4Do6I Z0aQFhKF+N0ezZOnlsNEtXLCOlkEgIP4v0dfer6MtrYbZ8FzBxRgra/qkwFqN5nYd83I /46zCXgfzWNbT8wQzpi5qLUo4FykTVPLSUsgd386btpDJ+twoLz0gXNYmqyTjmMwXCeU y2+QdAMBFjcW8N67rBTBOEIUEGFw5LVhNn+pbUvwtmyzEu7WpdVykz7ZJbtrv1dZ1vet YdlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vI2OZ8DNmGEPFWCf2VqKXdc8Z5W93OUxE8+BuFL4LmES/bTpH COydpq1oo31HVXxGbLAZBEOj1Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyd69+FP1n4HSB2VD9vSCypfwaXZWRsKtEqDLime7+2FqO3/mCK80UytdjGUrw6do7QeY1IZw== X-Received: by 2002:a5e:c707:: with SMTP id f7mr7940149iop.188.1636502600184; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm10378721iom.9.2021.11.09.16.03.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:03:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:03:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:03:25 -0000 On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same > process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. > > With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB > venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited > publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as > RFCs. IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, published as RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:04:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CB03A0C7A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Aq83PiRlh0F for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 367EB3A0C75 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id e144so773615iof.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:04:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wRLARx+eNDm2KvLE63RXkUZJygORtptNshcYnA5lBrY=; b=cJW1PfmUCWzawD896TLkQMaHVeQLrrRt3ckVs85InAI/hlmm8XlE94B42RqI7p9bSd nJSEzBeDH0WB/cQXXYQmx9AHs1twq7RCBBEnahcTDz6tnLn278NwAIqAOdrDQmpY7pK8 3+ASAb9Vh7Y2Mk8Xba2Hfw7GY/o6XxG2rlPsw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wRLARx+eNDm2KvLE63RXkUZJygORtptNshcYnA5lBrY=; b=ipEwPuigIiABFB3CGGLuyjLVZz3QpDwEh38CYBDp3ilXnnBRSs4CTF4ua4vX7HQaiI EQ0etIfko/KJam1Pg1tki/k40JGvYP/cj8N8gTvq9I7oddCJN40ml/vESrtyhH41qJYk cDsDv4vtdBaW0i+jDUIfEMgNYp4H23nO/OSMhaKKZ1XC7/jp/SnCA8PGBYIdBwqtgOMp NH0kbxvxA+wDydkz7BXySv/enj3Ru9pmKVMqRtXVoWHkXgx8VVDnuBHHmAfd9oQ8gR20 ijrIByvOv/PrO/BeET2deySOZrz3Yk1CMty3Uk5hc1FFXgOcXqpxBON4yIZA54eZaA5l zjyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Qnhm9FCv44Q8GDeTjjE3pxII68D3KE4PAZR1HhINqOdJ7QPCd ZXmz1i1l62D+Y0tYqR4OG4fOwm5Uf4h2kA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzrnT2fv6KW3d4UV2ijhMx5/qh+rJV5pZs+FMAp9uuF9yO+Qgt6RA2Q8rUllOMrIw3+i618FA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8619:: with SMTP id f25mr8053293iol.46.1636502642057; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i25sm3984965iol.50.2021.11.09.16.04.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:04:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:04:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:04:11 -0000 On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that policies > take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of publication > of an RFC. WFM. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:12:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7443A0C9D for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:12:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6OnTS8H9B6bO for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E1863A0C93 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id r8so772332iog.7 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IehRx9ibfhqOODktcEitWfdes0aHWDmObKqLx2HFAsQ=; b=VglBSJSOwmoAmLhN0x1zCptaqTuQLfgqa5BGUlHoWoWxASonB1ebhbcSVtnyo9MAdL +xjGNa+/NlD0gDeDj+ELpdIS2hdD1f+MRVLAatvsbKwKOpaI36HaIg4X6RL++qzDsXou KRh4lUzB2IulbVFACt5rKNume/ClWnWqtZCeU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IehRx9ibfhqOODktcEitWfdes0aHWDmObKqLx2HFAsQ=; b=tuRyVdeUNiWFYy1DHpKd0Lnp9gBAE5Qe5CPr8swbx+uSoPB2Y7EKGuKNSbKC3Bpl17 TA/OpJUgOLZkf2uiwGkPmZO+Ceslmv95Fjje5HHtV2zdguXsrsbHG3JXBKfeCBLwDgRr 7VkxbP6g5CNxxMGE845eiSzOGXAg4hDofxmvts61S/YMoLinHHZBWNieHqX/axzmzBeU ZzYMBq7Zv62jMjVTicVF2NjEarbrzVsmhBZQAVwic/zqJaVB6zwbJpHNKXIxYMZm1Am5 78HVtABX7EApuxMwQU9N5Wh2qO2bKbdxnaIAtqci5kQcVV7YsXFtrO9nJtZB3vamOMl3 oWhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UZeL4GT7s+oE/uK4MN4CDaZiRD15z1q8wOrrtBfVyW0VWZ+9S hQkTon1tsFl5+FnwA1SSMQKgVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbKWh6W63W8N0gFsvlb6U7CfIB2B0uuKXn38ZvxkMCje9Z0Rhpxk6hOq9WkxrzAmKIoMrVWQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:928c:: with SMTP id s12mr7969968iom.163.1636503166496; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c11sm11376563ilm.74.2021.11.09.16.12.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:12:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:12:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <8CFA1125-32D9-4776-AAE7-29970EF4EBC3@mnot.net> <7bf04a51-48ad-7236-0f7d-45727a268e2b@joelhalpern.com> <23AB27C6-834B-49DE-8F4F-4020471D78FD@mnot.net> <99338966-D5D1-460B-AF97-15E010B49E17@mnot.net> <1d4a2d15-6e11-33b2-a984-ee1322ee0151@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <1d4a2d15-6e11-33b2-a984-ee1322ee0151@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:12:53 -0000 On 11/5/21 12:52 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/5/2021 3:56 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Hi Mark, Mike, and Joel, >> >> Very productive discussion.  TL;DR - scope of document probably ok, >> maybe tweak Section 3 chapeau to match Section 6 change of scope >> rules.  Now please see below. >> >> On 05.11.21 06:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 11/5/2021 12:18 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>>> On 5 Nov 2021, at 2:19 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> No, I do not think the RSWG / RSAB are free, once established to simply expand their scope as they see fit. Having that right would undermine most of the point of this process, and many of the assumptions that enabled compromise. >>>>> What about introducing new processes within its scope? E.g., the ability to gain consensus on a question and communicate that to the RPC/RSCE/LLC without publishing an RFC? >>>> Since the structure in terms of the powers of the chairs, and the oversight by the RSAB, is keyed to the production of an RFC, introducing an alternative agreement form would seem at best to risk undermining the compromises of the structure. >>> I anticipated that might be the answer, and I don't disagree with it -- but Eliot's proposal seemed to imply such flexibility. >> >> My reading of the text agrees that the RSWG is really geared toward >> establishing policies and producing RFCs.*  For them to play an active >> role in managing content would require an entirely different decision >> process that is, as of yet, undocumented.  Would that be a good idea? >> Up to the community to decide, but it would, I think, be an >> impractical place to start, in order to achieve what I understand to >> be your goals. >> > I'm not quite sure why we're here yet again.   We set up a division of > labor way early.  If you really think we need to reopen that division of > labor, I've got a whole lot of other things we can reopen at the same > time that were based on the understanding of that division of labor. > > Basically, the RSWG writes documents - period.  It does not in any way > shape or form run anything operational, nor give operational guidance, > nor produce opinions except in the form of documents which have the > consensus of the RSWG. Big +1. (Modulo that the RSWG is also the/a place where the LLC and RPC inform the community about their work plans and priorities in the realm of implementation.) Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:16:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDFB3A0CAD for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:16:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id psyTFOwT2n4N for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C599A3A0CA6 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id k21so795164ioh.4 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9vhIW5gNrgY/xJwSFXOCEckiIh46dA4jVqEM4jCo3Gw=; b=GQAgFIfJMSufcMX0NHbKf9XN5UAOKcbw2FVJYmM4G+QN56yVaWM6sUmlwN76Y1l/r6 HQKlNNWtj1W32T5XcaeqU85HqD3cI0C70wwwJD1fVKuj6pWRUbQXVgov2lkEVkwgwiVT lG1jAFhVv5hB9Gpxf50W/ONDF9xZK1K6iRWJo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9vhIW5gNrgY/xJwSFXOCEckiIh46dA4jVqEM4jCo3Gw=; b=F+7bfYZ8rTUbafok/9fTIccpYYmNurEmU08UtrX4jOFrpa4X/bcCc+0yHekx4SC9jO jAU/TQFQToxz0rMyA7u7lnhK2wiRvenIM0ruPDMJfvmXxVwrXHnSr8W4JcMGjWO8/PaS CVvD+0Q+Fe247XRkY2VKGE7pu5G/fJH/C0QqW7NpJWD1/WY4GUHq5HqNDpQZODE/Rfyv drUN35OasUuTk18GdfM2+3aELbhGEEBeAQUB8807Iwhh95U2F/7eQiaW3QmJ6rfmI1S1 KtVBKRaGZ/4MMbYZBO7fFxhxH7X2q0iv7E1iYvX0A/0yMRf3uGd2t5ws/3T0GjPhydyx qHeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FDuYYBoAmrMs9jOdIY4nRk02l2f5lGHbXEsNLdtW6ntUr8hda TSIoM8oCLl9S8IYTKVOzVVlnFw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0W3MO6hj/mZ/d3UkLs8DVlP24h9bM7ZURoB37If3ZUdAiax7wZf0pVVO3uPqjXh0yYm2ljg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8152:: with SMTP id f18mr7751871ioo.135.1636503405439; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i16sm10674465ioh.54.2021.11.09.16.16.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <21b78e57-b3d0-6c5a-c7c0-c17c1c86d79d@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:16:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:16:50 -0000 On 11/9/21 4:54 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/9/2021 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established >> by the RSWG. > > For about the 50th time - the RSWG does not establish policy, it > proposes it.     Someone might argue that the RSAB misinterpreted an > Editorial RFC, but who determines what the proper interpretations of > such documents are if it isn't the RSAB? > > So a big NO on your proposed language. I was quoting a previous email from Martin Thomson. That was not my text. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:20:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623E63A0CD4 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:20:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IKuS4LwpXjaG for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2B073A0D4B for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id t11so574329qtw.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:20:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nhLXhE1E4whTlOYEL4Mhab/qJbVt0TTZZ12LLx146EE=; b=6DHQGyemLukW5Ce8SN2m307OcoLJWzJZCAyT8XVc57/tiEgpRyR0fSOIY9dXADjWSm nxZ2Chc1TG1a+fR3jjQ/6OZvyjGPMQgCqSckAHm7LS++2XwI9eBg/0xiydY3nalka4Ku oR8Z4hB4gLtpSF7nuWSYGddR2vNfLorF6JGKdyjzyOSJeSEBu2B3ZU2fJXpZlzXNeQzb f1IBpCDYGG5AK8k8oTF9RGNNSJB6qLFgmym40FNYiQ5PaNTggElc3LBNRg0kozAw4dXe 5mOfZJkFeF6al3V7UDSgMuiSjWRKROM/Q6z1GJjCK/RvkYPV6i5BKrmbmtQ2pia9EC0f MJ0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nhLXhE1E4whTlOYEL4Mhab/qJbVt0TTZZ12LLx146EE=; b=HtlAjqqPVnr6qYw6/11349HfEMYbyUHFh/myseA1ff+YRKAdhBTsufTsKT+pfKoGNq /jPF1f7NhVPWSYSLlXN/2+V7UIcz+wwX1mkbeTXNJKUm9w2weNJ4c+hRJD0cbdHx0ny0 HVyR4Ck7pDZsGSCMqVCZar75OQKXSboqupGlOvXAJSTM+rjg53p8cBtBYrO9x09m7jpH +fAO4OvcDTBYzRNIISrO59YdFCrA/nMERqmnIGWasvgfY+NlcW4l+Qy34I18kQgGSLj1 mOzJH+boGOZNKIEFRWUsr2brEAtbQQsogM4tV0iuhDI7QzYzyxCgYKUpC4tZIe36mC6I HETQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kiMrXNuAehc8mlNtWh+ZsvRzAt1ef7sVVSKPEbMXEnDon3970 BXxVGBwGazVLBMHhlraieepJ+U2YnuUUtAvH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTpMXpzwi5EWtGWrkOPQdbLPjvbiypsxTL+DQAEsmoUk5JlEOBMTfWJ50FXJrRuRT3tFAwSA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:104a:: with SMTP id f10mr13686765qte.152.1636503636361; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j13sm12772037qkp.111.2021.11.09.16.20.35 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:20:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:20:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:20:47 -0000 On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that >> policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of >> publication of an RFC. > > WFM. > > Peter > I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails that have occurred since this thread started. Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the tasking in place to make such things happen.  The period of time between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing. At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions. Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation process? Mike From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:21:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6571A3A0CD4 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:21:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yX9piv_Dkl_E for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86B3F3A0CD8 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id c12so559219qtd.5 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:21:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1B4yziBO8YKGY//x4SmZxu2u7HyjqjZEd7cB+Imwpfo=; b=suWkZDbGZ8sGw8WfgYWnHRC5LEqzNIaHuMPRvXrY8o1BhvVhVIldbZBJEnHZ4V8+qv 83ElpsQm1xWLAtK3NQ+YaJmOGZKeKgKt6IfO+ZCa7/xmWGUMEOcCV8TzqpaVMKQy1P8Z EwAlErr3AKfZhVxYMoRpgCXdyYQ9hHQMUKeywsIJ4dgJhERjNkUOZnf2q/2Ei8LweVTG iXbIdKOQ7G0Zz32GutFXVVqV7j0E91tCcu2kYPcIN/QvFGRu69Rnk8UowkGoa7z+N1Hf +zfe1t67lq5vdai75pQI/Hvgq/EABXRymvBxTzx62aaLgOhOUetl3v3LvYaLchyufO3m DJLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1B4yziBO8YKGY//x4SmZxu2u7HyjqjZEd7cB+Imwpfo=; b=XUyg1j5ZhPvor2D+NKI3Cm9S9+Ejsfv+l6pOzc/uvVcHfsGYu+0CBLcjrcWLoVt5gi lRgRAALajwowL6hBI6UWmLZp1i2NnQQ6OWVX0D4TyJ17KBLFFBQWra9ARVU3r4qz8PWn NXspMj26wqu10u+VmBRxaQpdHosVHtgwmFBklbvEjzYTu2M73Z7tvIVimDrW4iOKwISr 7XBLh92f4892N9xUJH0eUz18oVEuQ7D9rQ4EiQwJhmG/k8WLqtXjqGjQ2GpQ066WdZoA pCTYIvWcP1iYRWC6wHsybZTM9K9NTF4to7xVvnQFkzN26kutoav4oDaEnqZyBav6BikW q/+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fkS0EYj6kTqh8hnqJmBq4cEUfp/oncEN1v3cRlY33XZxPHoZB UBP7uYd0QvD/B58HtfvivCGtxaC8obddrQQ6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTw7VZTZql/SzcjQuWJJSq88RmjHcbWRs5ngj/a2CRL1a0bo3yih5a7IZwRwexy/I7ds8lkw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5c54:: with SMTP id j20mr13355029qtj.190.1636503685076; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ay12sm12687645qkb.35.2021.11.09.16.21.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:21:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8411619a-ac0b-2618-e288-2da8c350a3ec@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:21:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> <21b78e57-b3d0-6c5a-c7c0-c17c1c86d79d@mozilla.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <21b78e57-b3d0-6c5a-c7c0-c17c1c86d79d@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:21:31 -0000 On 11/9/2021 7:16 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/9/21 4:54 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/9/2021 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established >>> by the RSWG. >> >> For about the 50th time - the RSWG does not establish policy, it >> proposes it.     Someone might argue that the RSAB misinterpreted an >> Editorial RFC, but who determines what the proper interpretations of >> such documents are if it isn't the RSAB? >> >> So a big NO on your proposed language. > > I was quoting a previous email from Martin Thomson. That was not my text. > > Peter My apologies to mis-attributing this to you.  My objection stands to the language. From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:23:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F5D3A0CE0 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:23:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5KaBdXKGa0iF for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D76483A0CDC for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id w15so628811ill.2 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:23:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VCJx6teVobQ7G2MDn5FeKwiPw69QjdwPBo7KFtgCjKE=; b=cETV2zpAkWz7MioHwEXPwKm6SRHSVYupp2obZ1OkMNKFLy4z0S0j+Y+wOoZC4jA6PP q3QvQFlZOLiQbm4e2PnvJNCD/JkYMvP/Wu8EylJCeK0TFhCgzYUWYJVl4LgF21NSkfN4 QBZcWdeuZR7hNEhtAewKLrbEtXNF7JyPb/D7g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VCJx6teVobQ7G2MDn5FeKwiPw69QjdwPBo7KFtgCjKE=; b=VMrGxWb7a8eBORxag9N8/NUlG5asYTKgeSak22qIpyAxJsU04yRfh16Ci890igOiUu khXM58cToC+4OF5pVyHhtQ9If5S0F2UTFeqKciPQ0VCjY170GRPd290fm2z3ECRACMRb t/q5g85P7J/4r7e+pKkRCdzlPipvMVD+7IyWvNt2ORcTATiU/MaP8qOWsx1Q66GkQ7Js Mw4KxgqtVTGmEDkugCuCqec2VqKkipE7eM/lnT5858vp7q+lzllSyzmks8TCUxjEGxYd y8uf6rdPYUzmsnSCABEntc15yLOQ06ezE9w7MT0g+Hu/udPrmIumqfkpsWKFQ2ZgETZS EEZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WPu/x4JDwKvEbu2UbEX8dBHFgScct6zd/yFLYsAc/RAWY3IZ6 wfCM84Lrs2E09cpRLWDkNKkH2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWZbdXNaJzW5v0cDg4H4zcZS9+f/ChgNpXIbCJO4C1n0lFHX0W1byyzRFFYjYTx+EyToF+Jg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1d84:: with SMTP id h4mr8620210ila.265.1636503799050; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i4sm11818494ilv.15.2021.11.09.16.23.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:23:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:23:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <570a63fc-4426-48ec-8cee-338acaf9e4cb@www.fastmail.com> <6F50754C-8C3F-4318-B33F-A7BC12D14CE3@mnot.net> <1FF99FF7-95AA-4DC6-BD74-2AA1D469A897@mnot.net> <1b7c4b75-e533-c4f2-37ee-4db8252aafa5@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <1b7c4b75-e533-c4f2-37ee-4db8252aafa5@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:23:26 -0000 I tried to make this distinction through the phrasing in the current draft, but "working practices" is much clearer - thanks, Brian! On 10/27/21 4:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Does anyone NOT like it? > > Diff below. > > Eliot > > > -## Implementation-Specific Policies > +## Working Practices > > -Under and consistent with the high-level policies defined for the RFC > -Series in general or particular streams, the RPC shall define more > -particular policies regarding matters related to the editorial preparation > +In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC, or to > specify the > +detail of its implementation, the RPC can > +document working practices regarding the editorial preparation >  and final publication and dissemination of RFCs. Examples include: > >  * Maintenance of a style guide that defines editorial standards to which > -  RFCs must adhere (see {{RFC7322}} and the > -  [style guide web page](https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/)). > +  RFCs must adhere (see the > +  [style guide web page](https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/), which > +  extends {{RFC7322}). > >  * Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as input to the >    editing and publication process. > >  * Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published > documents. >    In the context of the XML vocabulary ({{RFC7991}}), such policies could > -  include matters such as the exact XML elements and attributes used to > -  capture the semantic content of RFCs. More generally, such policies > -  could address the readability and presentation of information in RFCs. > +  include clarifications regarding XML elements and attributes used to > +  capture the semantic content of RFCs. > >  ## RPC Responsibilities > > Eliot > > On 27.10.21 05:12, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> I like it; done. >> >> >>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 2:10 pm, Brian E Carpenter >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 27-Oct-21 12:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> Hi Stephen, >>>> FWIW I think the current text encourages such things even more >>>> strongly. >>>> I agree that the RPC setting policies willy-nilly is concerning, but >>>> I also acknowledge that the reality is that they'll need to in some >>>> circumstances, else many RFCs will be delayed indefinitely while the >>>> RSWG and RSAB chew on an ever-increasing pile of problems. >>>> A few things we can do to ameliorate that: >>>> - Make it clear that RPC policies are temporary and subject to >>>> review by the RSWG >>>> - Make it clear that RPC polices are not pre-emptive; although >>>> persuasive, they can be overridden by the RSWG >>>> - Limit the scope of RPC policies >>>> I think all three are implied by the current text and the proposal, >>>> but could be clarified. >>> If you s/working policies/working practices/ I think it will make the >>> intent clear >>> without undercutting the RSWG/RSAB policy role. >>> >>>    Brian >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 10:22 am, Stephen Farrell >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>> >>>>> On 27/10/2021 00:12, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>>> How about: >>>>>> https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/101 >>>>> Apologies if I'm getting the githubbery differy wrong but >>>>> your suggestion seems to add: >>>>> >>>>> "In the absence of a high-level policy documented in an RFC, >>>>> or to specify the detail of its implementation, the RPC can >>>>> define working policies regarding the editorial preparation >>>>> and final publication and dissemination of RFCs." >>>>> >>>>> My starting point is to be strongly opposed to that as it >>>>> puts the RPC in the position of initiating, and being the >>>>> proponent for, policy changes. That seems to me to be the >>>>> opposite of where we want to be, despite the inefficiency >>>>> of where we are:-) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> S. >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> On 27 Oct 2021, at 3:03 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>> On 26.10.21 05:16, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>>>>>>> 2) Section 4.2 seems to put the XML format under the exclusive >>>>>>>>> control of the RPC. Is that really our intent? Likewise for the >>>>>>>>> 'readability and presentation of RFCs'. >>>>>>>> I didn't read that text in that way, but in looking again, it >>>>>>>> could be clearer. >>>>>>> Again, my favorite question: do you have a preferred correction? >>>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >> -- >> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> > From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:25:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1473A0CE0 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id msTmHCuAU440 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D223B3A0CD4 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id j28so640065ila.1 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:25:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mDx8xVEJIhkHfplLIrzqiZR6BEEtRSqvuqPNYnS2NUo=; b=c2fd+V0rqjwbuoQrINP6QN5HsDLZfU9PbSs8XniFrjGBbIyKQgQarMHSnwtVVu1NBP a2SgULxANFy9eEw017+9EM/gbwLPJjqQ8uXcw6CMDZvoqQ2VTW+zVfHbxun84bwIIiEy Q9LqlnmExPMnjxGhdaVy8jkE16nw56lzqQFts= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mDx8xVEJIhkHfplLIrzqiZR6BEEtRSqvuqPNYnS2NUo=; b=qAmEAWRaln7R7DVBQLNW1xMKet5/6jab5hYanyvur95vxBSXPQ1xneBTBtlZE6y4LS MwYdGFdg5RKb8T7hANvCKYqXyXhxpbSJLhR6F7Oy3MQUINcleFNKT1qu929suU++89rd F9LRVNaB6tSWXeK56D7qsZsPwNFlAffKJhWkXMdtLNGqhku0aUnKmTQDu/JQI+9wO7u3 RMZUQfiRoynLIGO2Zzr+VFvD9ZixLzlAJMaScm/EDWmIUq3mGvFvVEOYVj8zQd+kshHK ZkxXp9n8R+7hzjujnudJU6EC9AoqaIFkhYAyJpCD5tTYWhCRNmwXBp+qIw/vND05Xc5q pa2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532DeygWA+cp55EUqmAl246XX0pVWi/KVRwTJafA+/iC/6JmLz3Q XrAz5PpTCaOBfJNUSD4khGGZ0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwP9BaIWPtmnSCFeN4Gtxx0CRyASD/5FvmDALe71dynMmsoEU1KzO0QbVw0CFr5hcUP9qXblw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:16c9:: with SMTP id 9mr8299808ilx.166.1636503915714; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c16sm11387653ilk.3.2021.11.09.16.25.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:25:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0f88609f-c1ad-9180-b160-6b270e3d113e@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:25:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> <21b78e57-b3d0-6c5a-c7c0-c17c1c86d79d@mozilla.com> <8411619a-ac0b-2618-e288-2da8c350a3ec@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <8411619a-ac0b-2618-e288-2da8c350a3ec@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:25:20 -0000 On 11/9/21 5:21 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/9/2021 7:16 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 4:54 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/9/2021 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established >>>> by the RSWG. >>> >>> For about the 50th time - the RSWG does not establish policy, it >>> proposes it.     Someone might argue that the RSAB misinterpreted an >>> Editorial RFC, but who determines what the proper interpretations of >>> such documents are if it isn't the RSAB? >>> >>> So a big NO on your proposed language. >> >> I was quoting a previous email from Martin Thomson. That was not my text. >> >> Peter > > My apologies to mis-attributing this to you. No worries! > My objection stands to the > language. > Yes, agreed. For clarity, a policy is established through the process described in our document: an RSWG proposal, approved by the RSAB, published as an RFC. I suspect Martin's phrasing was merely shorthand. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:28:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EC53A0CEF for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:28:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dhAkDSsyj8UK for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68073A0CDD for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id l8so632755ilv.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:28:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XkG5pumlF5nVKNxaWxEbWzgQcuoLoppXeaa7FOssPR4=; b=bHU5fwXPkxdMQg21vXxM71/hyHyHPxRThK6CyhN5Mii2yqT/rU2q4H9DJYSmx1cxq7 SmvsCNHcPeHXdXI50NRmy/mrMsFgSkF4uYhtCoPeeqMY42ByE1EiKjCsKHn22hTg/VWg DQ++uJ26l1lmL0yowtfN2DxDwYM9SoOtozROM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XkG5pumlF5nVKNxaWxEbWzgQcuoLoppXeaa7FOssPR4=; b=QyS12Xd67LQzChtGpwN1mTlKdXAdah4WcNt6GiSersW7xEJceVDxXbynpf5L41GDzO LrNkubDWpWUrDFn/1D5YFPWOIKNtMCZoF90VHATpc1eRPWGo9nTCv8krKQi8gY9b+KF1 NthO/vG8Gkw4ee8a5ZIdU2qMKwfKoF8+nXGw59cf3uma/ydQLV4V0ww3klnle9Z8YQPl ZzVHyD8AQB6jbAezYI6+N9uCDsj3mFHo3J9UEEb0ClmLee7o6ngaEHLZZv/v5vLXLcy+ r5+kXHgNIqmbv3htAHYKuoFKfBJy2bD284xa99NxWGMOeCWGwve2YqAVCkWsch0d8lwS lH1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DcKXm+SU0cQPNGkDfUa7SSF63dotMwcvVuP10p/OEXgSw2pg+ Lglk9CPaL+KBebYRD1HxyWvcg4fQ/CbYpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEYTV4KICRZIHcBLbjud1H5udhjLdQFlpA7nFDYtIrXfcyNgzr75SxtwpWoq2BVRkdPGGLpQ== X-Received: by 2002:a92:c983:: with SMTP id y3mr8280748iln.24.1636504080489; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e10sm11207660ili.53.2021.11.09.16.27.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:27:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:27:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:28:05 -0000 On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >>> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that >>> policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of >>> publication of an RFC. >> >> WFM. >> >> Peter >> > I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails > that have occurred since this thread started. > > Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does > not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the > tasking in place to make such things happen.  The period of time between > the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document through the > process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to figure out how > to do what the document is requesting/directing. > > At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by a > request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from the > LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG > can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat > similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions. > > Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early > implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation > process? I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:36:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAB53A0D56 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:36:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aktA84sMlNAO for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F231A3A0D52 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id n15so644357qta.0 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:36:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TDiyjS4iYKbAozTJDi5c5sN9fX+mhAvKLnLmW2n9PcI=; b=d8QyA1FQTlvlJHNrm76QQT76yY4uEPnJfI+Ds4TleJwq5EE4DPiE2PYMjEkUK6Od+2 YWAZ2DmvxbuW5HR1AX4NbB/N8A6w1a6Hr5j4tEHNWEKtVyS/zWnjPoHlIVI4yhuRk33c Q4NS6Ap9ZbCd4NPIj5XAxbXzAX6zOqs5kbxVGPwyHpOXWEsMc7LqlH+N4Wgrh15wiVJ/ KAOrXGtwc0SP7aLk41l/dsFV+J/Hm7/IkHKsaz+LgSSaVICAd6BJwfYhEmA7f5dixONa uf6WYpfMxBSlGg8aR/9sSEurTj8LJXEjGR4tWP2cIkNv7ld8liN3A76YlQ2EEAsZo7Yc LdCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TDiyjS4iYKbAozTJDi5c5sN9fX+mhAvKLnLmW2n9PcI=; b=eezXA7pwYBr7/0je2tDY7RCo47pxgA61V1cw4Ryqjt5dyIEg6ifdElKxduH7H+52rB ysLzrQRNR2sLFz/SaBM7nm1h0z3u9dvTFqZMB2LzudxjaTcZfLHL+oKK29sq9vognZve ZzJcFRuWQK70gE/ceSN1hg0MmCSohCOsGNu8m+b1OVCI3AR+GiSsV98nRjhfzK3e3nvD J4yep/kAhOvZk7TmRuQ5Fsdjb0c3t+HySuPoV5I0Sb2sYHebaGlcva+HLegapwSv980H RVP9DYDDaYTxKEDIlq3SCx13ZdsEBYJQ3MiSInQeC7anH4prEkvzmUyT7I+rF/jVMm7A Kf5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532yoXuici0pX2hj+5P+H92+cTyVIzTgWN76oFfxYzKLfLwu9lNW opeXZSuNvJXlf3+YD3MA4VTFoFteevBliNHU X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGQZLEaeT7tOGRCAV5bldHsIFbeGQt2Cs6SjSlCx+b+mBcBo0SItnktwNKjyS7Y+7v4alcpw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:11:: with SMTP id a17mr13022372qtg.276.1636504587807; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n19sm13534912qta.22.2021.11.09.16.36.27 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:36:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:36:32 -0000 On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> >>>> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that >>>> policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing >>>> of publication of an RFC. >>> >>> WFM. >>> >>> Peter >>> >> I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other >> emails that have occurred since this thread started. >> >> Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does >> not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or >> the tasking in place to make such things happen.  The period of time >> between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document >> through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to >> figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing. >> >> At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by >> a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from >> the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the >> RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being >> somewhat similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent >> submissions. >> >> Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early >> implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation >> process? > > I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval > by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the > RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until > processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. > "may" not "can"  I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" > Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 16:38:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1AE3A0D60 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:38:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIYbK0xHa6OF for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC3B93A0D41 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id l8so655995ilv.3 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:38:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1NQwUCUII/pP3C1pJCU2P2vk0QxhbM9Ao+zW+Z792iI=; b=GnhDPMiay+IuSTWQ/wO/xh4XoBi9B4+7prrCXfiDBeV8GkEfMmKI+j8VwFWU26HrWk gt7VcdMoJEl3Xloxddw50xIOzJ5nHdgzb4BEomXQFnEPvSiRA8rNcTBFqFNUQjfQ3qZF C8IX+Pt9kZbKjf99VFhtx6yA3fAr245W4a3uE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1NQwUCUII/pP3C1pJCU2P2vk0QxhbM9Ao+zW+Z792iI=; b=D7uxSD1B2lg9dYdf6kSyrLJff6/A/8TML/x+/JUH9ASTYj0eTNIIdHFkDNboPJma1W wS1P++drdoJnld5FA8TuJ5H6CTq/8eKXHF796camqQhmz1+vf06g2ftcQE4wXvvY2NPZ rYftNP2weT7/hBrG95pHxihQlfhoYxWux51t18wXEJrZiMqTzKRxlfMP9x7smbtSCKWR DzKhiS2r1L6pVzuSNh1j2UOjWvkd6nquKOwhH3tG8HYWvoCUMyrg1tYVuafFIKUtJCGn sAJW9I3fu/CrOTbuWdc4bsrd0F9RX24bwuZLZjoZG41/Ec1Qq0So1y4Xy6DvV2SLQLl7 TAyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531peaKNGeD39pe/G8Y0cVqvjNTNzbHfqD+RRaHBVbq33tgshOGd HlaQ6IP/r8EgBEEdONRVuiyIJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSh1ISNqFbrPHaRtmsHkq5ONXx3nv91cy86KTF9KBzY8w4XVw7QwIiRYCh4yc7mW2AHyxR6w== X-Received: by 2002:a92:7413:: with SMTP id p19mr8442413ilc.134.1636504704891; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm11074597iot.45.2021.11.09.16.38.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:38:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:38:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:38:30 -0000 On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that >>>>> policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing >>>>> of publication of an RFC. >>>> >>>> WFM. >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>> I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other >>> emails that have occurred since this thread started. >>> >>> Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does >>> not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or >>> the tasking in place to make such things happen.  The period of time >>> between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document >>> through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to >>> figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing. >>> >>> At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by >>> a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from >>> the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the >>> RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being >>> somewhat similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent >>> submissions. >>> >>> Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early >>> implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation >>> process? >> >> I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval >> by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the >> RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until >> processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. >> > "may" not "can"  I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection > due to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" Seems reasonable, thanks. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 17:15:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955AB3A0E1C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:14:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EhkKc6zD6C1A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27DE33A0E1D for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id gx15-20020a17090b124f00b001a695f3734aso184241pjb.0 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:14:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZSwOHamoOBSo/sh4WfCP3KKJKXeRnnlgGyWGtIelGIU=; b=cUpKN0KKjE0cW0eF49/RcGV78lQLTB5znrUBO52dKNLTKuxef+hoOuzYQw0EjA0rFL n1qVxOlOMfnp7K+ObYGGIpgMWRGXmK8p64z7LUqtlITp9RXasnCRRRwx6P3yNOthyrdE 3uRAvttmJRG25lGX79Qd+17WUU7ELiztb12Zmea58piO1/szoHD0odOyyk61C6hyrNNn P8p6IdCq41BD8OJ6P72EW7qc2x6BEUTb5p7cziJxfxWp8x3jY1humrobvgniRtcxlGV+ st8USm9jlpLBjh4sMIkejUBsBhG4Bx0JLMwgXUbwJ+oE3pxrUSvXHXFUUAOmJrAiJ9dC TqGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZSwOHamoOBSo/sh4WfCP3KKJKXeRnnlgGyWGtIelGIU=; b=FdSzvD+Eb51Xm0d+UBmQc91yOhfpRubCZEBx2BzuF0j+dM1DEQyR4XqGiYsipGkYI/ Br5k9ap3DIRYY9C9SOZ4jP3koRTe8igx2UOv6WTQzFiP084y1xL22zaqi+rO/AQOsRxM vhmv/mGlk9uyZXD9oJGZCkPenbw0mynYoNUqC6gNE1Di+RGCCYBMiexycebXToVH3i0K 7Te8WJLxqlxME22qOSla5WfpdhncKLb5lofxAWTipCoLEn+LojF+GEcPWfR1hs5C4Wtv nGSyk1KkzDpXctcjb3RqmyQgk9ZYRS9XcVk7LbDA6GPdTjPqohhOQsUT9wxq8oOqPfQg c0Lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531cRDDs5nHaPSgtqDYLWfY6cPWU0Aon2CUUO1W4ncwCHJioAvSN Z2aJS0mVUaJgUEa6gYyGG9E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8Ha7DhI9pPLL3Ltj6saZyW7c1PAQB7pWrcZa+q1qSJdVwZFpmJc9l1dUeu2Yli1V+/C3bTA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4c51:: with SMTP id np17mr10607499pjb.213.1636506889947; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l17sm21912677pfc.94.2021.11.09.17.14.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:14:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:14:58 -0000 On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same >> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >> >> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as >> RFCs. > > IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process > we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, published as > RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about > what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs whose effective content is one line of text. If the RSWG has something very simple to say, it should just say it. One way is for the RSWG to follow the rule in RFC 2418 and post minutes of its meetings, for example. We surely don't need to legislate for that. Brian From nobody Tue Nov 9 17:21:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A233A0E29 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f69dR7v4araT for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A87AA3A0E2A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id w33-20020a17090a6ba400b001a722a06212so699008pjj.0 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:21:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LhyLRSejA2qZr7AbCjNJgnE+qUDGc8s8BUYOWumBQrA=; b=iCeD0pgDrFZC//gBDYO/c4ZDSwCnzqQKh8fRB0rcrJNzcxsbxqfVxnxPZZFmKGPkL7 DTyhChaj5gilsPEPfOFLefrapdmaZZ2QiH4RgqufRcD1vxD7l9jHGkHKayYFZFs6oE2C Mq9H0cJe3n21eCyxhe3AKdQ2hBNrKh4zXYlDmRJTmSn68UWqhYsaQNbQAuLU5LKbj6p+ qMoQ+hhQXRIbGyS812v5l7m6wgMtgZdqn9KvImrcaMBfCDK1fevCZs7d6l7il5dbg0xS f4iQ+c8O/v1TzpGSqIwBrZzpddQI5YXNl9RrMtyNKELD8dYpqPvJdP32TR4glewsv1yq QwJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LhyLRSejA2qZr7AbCjNJgnE+qUDGc8s8BUYOWumBQrA=; b=nsTKFJiC+8wmZWm0dEN0O5SW78yp6mMqdJ2hVek6xWU6fekRdmeFP7/ZfqtzQ3eZKM P3TGRNaQVVqdNw0ZghleeWnl/ZsyLJTejb/d1oybXuUW/ZuASxWGW6pXRkpu8oV4pz5q rKCssOmygN9lscbwNsK6PFwcSKwJdOjz4PDJ0FH1a9MhK8fyCqCyFguYZ/yYTcB+XIZo cNls906ZRSZs5tA/9BGqpeJs0EoNYawEA5snGh/6mMe39V2dv78zaAhcWbkviPh35gza q8KPZljIpQXROBgKLt9a85v+kDqT0txwgYTaKGkZBLMu3yb1hKQ2tqX9KFPTrzWukebC 5KWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530W6W+cjXpgr/ac0SSjOTflGEw6//uDsT+nXsGgojKYQLfaCCRd OH9MTuNX24cyssOEpP1B1+YTOOoZ+XV05Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiHZoSeibiqR2LCshA80pJOh6cc4ZAhpGZ6ogf6i+FXEzQP59n1KT/psVMGQ4c3M9juonDkw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4f42:: with SMTP id pj2mr12522009pjb.7.1636507280318; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k16sm15460699pfu.183.2021.11.09.17.21.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) To: Michael StJohns , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <202f005c-6854-4232-ffdf-95f9cabfa766@nthpermutation.com> <21b78e57-b3d0-6c5a-c7c0-c17c1c86d79d@mozilla.com> <8411619a-ac0b-2618-e288-2da8c350a3ec@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <232e4668-261d-3456-5f07-58f1173ad8e8@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:21:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8411619a-ac0b-2618-e288-2da8c350a3ec@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:21:26 -0000 On 10-Nov-21 13:21, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/9/2021 7:16 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 4:54 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/9/2021 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy that was established= >>>> by the RSWG. >>> >>> For about the 50th time - the RSWG does not establish policy, it >>> proposes it.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Someone might argue that the RSA= B misinterpreted an >>> Editorial RFC, but who determines what the proper interpretations of >>> such documents are if it isn't the RSAB? >>> >>> So a big NO on your proposed language. >> >> I was quoting a previous email from Martin Thomson. That was not my te= xt. >> >> Peter >=20 > My apologies to mis-attributing this to you.=C2=A0 My objection stands = to the > language. That being duly noted, it seems to me that the sentence would work, and be useful, if it ended thus: "...that the RSAB misinterpreted an approved policy." It's all a bit of a corner case, though, and I'm not sure that death by a thousand corner cases is helping us. Whatever we do will have corner ca= ses, so we cannot win by more and more analysis. Brian From nobody Tue Nov 9 17:36:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714DE3A0E7B for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9f4NpCc5CSW for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97CF43A0E78 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HpnVq1rgRz6G9GY; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636508163; bh=aHXJXCvT5B0OAn3iVB5LNfe8xed05dt10F9wH9EjgiE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=LF1FlgHFsnfHWlk6RSjo/AcyXaT9Y+oxyx1ptH+p722I47kZv53Qe5rr4f6qh16cl v0GQsKC4bMAlqIVlYUIs0vvDNXIYIjVQ74u3gmoyClLmXPQ9MvNmN6zOysJyYttY8L BWbYL4NhyG5rKIDPFoVocIVLpEw3okYUOPHEa8hQ= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HpnVp2xvQz6G975; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <89d7a01d-4a48-8ecf-18f7-ec192170124c@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:36:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:36:09 -0000 Brian, I do nto follow your logic. The only thing the RSWG is supposed to opin about is policy. For policy, it is suppodsed to determine the rough consensus of the larger community. THere are a series of hoops we have selcted to try to achieve that. Minutes of a session of a meeting do not match that in any fashion. If once or twice we actually need 1 content line RFCs, so be it. The bits are cheap. If we need it more than that, something very strange is going on. Yours, Joel On 11/9/2021 8:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same >>> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >>> >>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >>> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >>> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as >>> RFCs. >> >> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process >> we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, published as >> RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about >> what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). > > The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs whose > effective content is one line of text. If the RSWG has something very > simple to say, it should just say it. One way is for the RSWG to follow > the rule in RFC 2418 and post minutes of its meetings, for example. We > surely don't need to legislate for that. > >    Brian From nobody Tue Nov 9 17:36:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE2A3A0E7E for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gSQDZGhB_8-v for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE45B3A0E7B for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id i9so747632ilu.8 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:36:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=W9MV03HaQhMlvp48TCcXGZc/53bvWwevKEZGZ6xrJfg=; b=POjG100QxQfoBJk10P7Ztbv5iL+uPDLo57Fwrcj2Fr6khoalfve10OsojmQPcW9fCJ 588B1/aiw1oJqThvY/Lf9izSGM+5TQ04hWxSTwhFZw0dNOJ2YyEvSitYtfRehWrxbojL fwqDxYxUSKzEseUCDQ91q45ox/+fgEvDF7h2g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=W9MV03HaQhMlvp48TCcXGZc/53bvWwevKEZGZ6xrJfg=; b=eJ5dlUp10GYZRHXoDatylHngIodhYrzavionTs46SMy8eZqUbxZmd1Mh2qgw4J6IGO HkYfB0l6IPYvfbQVAa7uHrlGh0Dk8ts3lQdrpzIylyxT4E84eZMbBCJu2Jx0uGyxRw4P N4gYIHmm7DKPjcQTHFzh6pD5oQ7Z9pW31+o39W5kDLkDcr8HjatwQ4p5YatvDx5Yf+yq U4LnejKk5y4MJ5RIERL9cS/IcpJrw5P1UdPJcJdgZ119Ci36Rs9oZCewPOZq4CcllKNa vvdgDfahUVtOd4Mq7bTPP2P7H0GAfwWZ/uujot22ztWPaoxF//6je3SV9yIi7TzFO++X U+0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533oVFJkdQUZyS401zEMs9fP7wtlXpvo3NbYtXZyduNi1YOtk7zg WH8l0O5uR0gPXP9PVH/CAskebA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxc9YVqbmkeAilgmkKfBM5ZLPWXc/I73vRGyeddhk6/sOhdb36pfZ0Yfn2tYiKhxXS9RQ3HiQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1445:: with SMTP id p5mr8705017ilo.105.1636508198616; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm10728500iob.17.2021.11.09.17.36.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6caeaf42-ebad-22e8-2d49-f84d309c80ac@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:36:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> <3E99E95F-13CC-469F-BC26-DE2D8BBE50EC@ietf.org> <78605005-de9b-44fb-a452-ded54b3a79cf@www.fastmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <78605005-de9b-44fb-a452-ded54b3a79cf@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:36:46 -0000 On 11/1/21 3:39 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 06:33, Jay Daley wrote: >>> On 1/11/2021, at 11:50 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, at 07:08, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an extended >>>> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through whatever >>>> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE acts as >>>> the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment >>> >>> How would you distinguish this from a "full" appointment, such that it warrants a note like this? >> >> This process is limited, as per the first clause, to a situation where >> there is already an RSCE but they are unavailable. It does not cover >> the situation where the post is empty and so the full appointment >> process has to be followed then. > > Ok, then this is fine. > For the avoidance of doubt, we might want to say "the currently appointed RSCE" or some such. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 17:52:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CEC3A0E9E for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:52:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nsw9Tg8pqTQS for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93C423A0E9C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id x10so963057ioj.9 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:52:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hge2dzc7Bb697sUwmi0DRWjsMwRK6R3pkZUNAA2FSiQ=; b=SQtii7pXnRx5oVPUVipGs19A6T9TLXlb5hxu+muCWONOfpGgYyarpC5EckgQ7InHjW 7e0w6OOCmQrZmveOZ1Wpmd7x3mdmNeDNOx5mSJR0idlz2vUazUoUasE46ah//AlBC1J8 5nOZpXo2UnbOodTHSmWWzP4uA8kDqG/XEiLww= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hge2dzc7Bb697sUwmi0DRWjsMwRK6R3pkZUNAA2FSiQ=; b=sL6QRgjkEt4oMvpsrewUyAzJaJfMK6vjeZUvBOEGTw3hbvSitf3CLMPC8Nzfre7XbR gBbUUV9zKgPkCGcptLVaT5pq+QFRmzxGnySI/cniwWJwLMhbU2xRYvdHv5aFsAQPSXU4 UctojmX0sLZ30R5rU9vgbw5HbNtaVr4uF3Y3idU7eV2zJBcTSWaCoUuhB69Solf/jGw5 VF/3vpoyXnOe/F59q9NlpKR8TGIU3Ko4vGyC3P62fCjwjCV2f8JLs0zkQ9PZAJ1wKUvT Ng0Ud9XgP5Ygt8c6bTXGNXrK2MzLNGvDTfFfc+RaZu5q6ajApmvSzSLkUlHfpTysld6r jwnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MUIElLToxnsy0lbYthSycMoU8ypUcHNyuqC+zrhNFhsxtBwGS t5O1rNdd6l27hwQr1b4J7F3HpQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6VVR+AGe8AuqYAwMORY0HAPJzDChaFsVNYdPJmhaHd40wlWG8jEKTJ2W//gtMonKP6yn+AQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2d8f:: with SMTP id k15mr8067835iow.31.1636509159692; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b9sm11331673ilo.73.2021.11.09.17.52.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:52:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7319341a-c428-ef0c-661f-0d03c23ab89c@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:52:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:52:46 -0000 Hi Colin, thanks for the careful review. I agree with most of your feedback and will reply in greater detail after our meeting this week, since IMHO these matters don't require discussion there. On 11/5/21 2:01 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 22 Oct 2021, at 09:13, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> This begins the two week last call on draft-iab-rfcedfp-rfced-model-05.[1] This call will run through Friday, 5 Nov 2021. Please send your comments to this mailing list. We will address any issues that are raised during our IETF time slot (and of course on list). > > I’ve re-read this draft, and while I still have some concerns, I can live with the content. Some comments below, many but not all of which are editorial. > > Apologies if these overlap with previous comments. > > > > > > Near the end of Section 1: > >> In this model, documents are produced and approved through multiple >> document streams. The stream manager for each stream is responsible >> for the content of that stream. The RFC Editor function is >> responsible for the packaging and distribution of the documents. As >> such, documents from these streams are edited and published by the >> Production Center. > > Is “RFC Editor function” intended here? I thought that was replaced? > Also, the “As such” confuses and seems unnecessary. > > > > Section 2, 2nd paragraph: > >> By contrast, version 3 of the RFC Editor Model, specified here, >> provides a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some >> respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) > > The IRTF lacks the explicit requirement for consensus that exists in IETF, so it might be clearer to just use the IETF as the example here. > > > Section 3, 1st paragraph: > >> Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the open >> through proposals that are generated by and discussed within the RFC >> Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC Series >> Approval Board (RSAB). > > The phrase “defined in the open” could be clearer. Maybe “defined through open and public discussion” or similar? > > “generated by..the RSWG” - implies that proposals can only be generated by the group, but we also want to allow proposals to originate elsewhere and submitted to the RSWG for discussion. > > > Section 3.1.1: > >> The intent is that >> the RSWG operate in a way similar to working groups in the IETF and >> research groups in the IRTF. Therefore, all RSWG meetings shall be >> open to any participant, > > The combination of these can be read as open to any participant in the IETF and IRTF. Perhaps “All RSWG meeting shall be open to all interested persons” to match the later text? > > >> All interested persons are welcome to participate in the RSWG >> (subject to anti-harassment policies as described below). This >> includes participants in the IETF and IRTF, IAB and IESG members, >> ... > > “…this includes, but is not limited to, participants in…” > > > Section 3.1.2: > >> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for >> appointing RSAB members... > > In cases where the IRTF Chair or ISE appoints a delegate, this section uses the term "appointing body” to refer to both the IRTF Chair/ISE, as the appointing body for the RSAB delegate, and to the IAB as appointing body for the IRTF Chair/ISE, within a single paragraph. This may cause confusion. > > >> Whenever a new stream is created, > > Implies that new streams will be created. It should perhaps be “If a new stream is created”. > > >> The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a >> method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during the >> chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its >> members. > > Is it possible for the RSAB chair to step down from the chair role, but remain on the RSAB as a stream representative? > > If the RSAB chair position is vacated because the representative steps down from the RSAB, is there a requirement that the RSAB wait for their replacement to be appointed before selecting a new chair? > > > Section 3.2.2: > >> 1. An individual participant in the RSWG generates a proposal in the >> form of an Internet-Draft, which is submitted in full conformance > > Should specify where it is submitted. > > “An individual participant” - unclear if this is intended to exclude the RSAB members and RSWG chairs, or if they are allowed to submit as individuals but not as holders of those roles. I assume the latter is intended, but the draft should be clarified. > > > Bullet 3 in Section 3.2.2 explicitly calls out that the RSWG chairs are also expected to participate as individuals. Given that, it would be useful to also highlight here that RSAB members are also expected to participate as individuals. > > >> 5. After a comment period of suitable length, the RSWG chairs will >> determine whether rough consensus for the proposal exists... > > Are the RSWG chairs expected to publicly announce the outcome of the last call? > > >> 6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a >> community call for comments as further described below. If >> substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again >> consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At >> this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal. > > The “If substantial comments have been received…” text is unclear. Should it be “If substantial comments are received in response to the community call for comments, the RSAB may return the draft to the RSWG to consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit”? > > “At this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal” - at which time? Unclear if this is while the community call for comments is ongoing, while the RSWG is revising the draft, or after the community call for comments has concluded and any revisions have been made. > > >> 8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will >> submit the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration. > > This seems that it should happen before step 6, to trigger the RSAB to look at the document and issue the community call for comments. > > Step 8 would seem better phrased as the RSWG chairs confirming that that believe comments have been addressed and the document is ready for RSAB ballot. > > >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons: >> >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group >> that a particular member represents. > > Is an RSAB member permitted to file a CONCERN ballot if they believe a proposal represents a serious problem for one of the other streams? I’d expect that such issues would be resolved by discussion between the RSAB members leading to the representative for the stream concerned raising a CONCERN, but what happens if there is disagreement amongst the RSAB members? > > >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a >> surprise to the RSWG. > > I agree with the intent, but the phrasing allows for bad-faith accusations of surprise. Perhaps something like "RSAB members are expected to participate in the discussions within the RSWG, and raise any concerns and issues during those discussions; accordingly, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise to the RSWG”. > > It’s possible that an RSAB member will be made aware of an issue late in the process that would lead to them issuing a CONCERN. It’s obviously desirable if concerns are raised early, but that can’t be guaranteed. An RSAB member needs to be able to raise a late CONCERN (i.e., concern ballots “SHOULD NOT” come as a surprise, not “MUST NOT” come as a surprise). It would be useful to clarify that there are sometimes legitimate cases where a CONCERN may be a surprise, although this should be rare. > > >> 1. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate. >> >> 2. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If >> substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN >> positions, an additional call for community input might be >> needed. > > Agree with the intent, but would have expected the second sentence of point 2 to be included in point 1. > > Also, “have been made” -> “are made" > > >> 3. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions >> remain, a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting >> members vote YES, the proposal is approved. > > I’m not entirely happy with this, but accept the consensus. However, we also allow for additional streams to be created with their own voting members. If that happens, does this threshold change? It would seem that it should. > > >> Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. The >> RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities that may >> be interested in or impacted by a proposal as they see fit, following >> policies for those communities as appropriate. > > > Should this also say that: "RSAB members should distribute notice of the call for comments to the communities they represent”? > > >> The IETF anti-harassment policy >> (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment- >> policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB, > > I agree that the policy should apply, but the linked IESG statement and RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need updating to explicitly include the RSWG? > > > Section 4.1: > >> * The general roles and responsibilities of the RPC are defined by >> RFCs published in the Editorial Stream (i.e., not directly by the >> RSWG, RSAB, or RSCE). > > Needs clarification: changes to the roles and responsibilities of the RPC will be defined in this way. The existing roles and responsibilities remain and are not defined by Editorial stream RFCs (since, at present, there is no editorial stream). > > >> The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the >> engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over >> negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has >> responsibility for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The >> IETF LLC is empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a committee >> to complete these activities. > > Are there any constraints on who the LLC can appoint or on the membership of the committee they may convene? Performance targets can be a contentious issue. > > >> 4.2. Implementation-Specific Policies > > This section seems perhaps under-specified. Based on past history, I expect the RPC will no something reasonable, but the boundaries of its authority to set policy are not well defined here. > > > Section 4.4, 1st paragraph: "IRSG research group chair” -> “IRTF research group chair” > > > Section 5.2: > >> Periodically, the IETF LLC will evaluate the performance of the RSCE, >> including a call for confidential input from the community. The IETF >> LLC will produce a draft performance evaluation for the RSAB (not > > Might be clearer as “…will produce a draft evaluation of the RSCE’s performance for review by the RSAB…”? > > >> 6. Editorial Stream > > I still think this section needs to be explicit that Experimental RFCs cannot be published on the Editorial stream, rather than leaving it implied. > > >> Appendix A. Changes from Version 2 of the RFC Editor Model > > The content of the Appendix is fine, modulo the nits below, but I would like to see it moved to a main section of the document to make it clear that its contents are as normative as those in the rest of the document. > > >> A.5. RFC Series Oversight Committee (RSOC) > > The phrasing in this section is imprecise: “abolishes”, “disbands”, or “disestablishes” would be clearer. > > >> A.6. RFC Series Advisory Group (RSAG) > > "For the avoidance of doubt, this document affirms that the RSAG is obsolete and its charter is no longer in force” – there seems a strange reluctance to be explicit here: the RSAB has been abolished and no longer exists. > > > Cheers, > Colin > > > From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:01:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4C43A0EC0 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:01:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRyMjCgLkJeG for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 763733A0EBD for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id y16so989848ioc.8 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WJixq2TI6/jCsVnetf2Bs2PW9Ps1ioIUi5gq4VKkFcU=; b=TXAfF9qiyw1yHia2NugWGK7TJpVv7zgCdv+zXr1EXFc2U/Rgs60qAdyc2B+92+F9F2 QT97tR8KgsR74xHeag6RKlJzCBLvR2qsqXia3mvSs+waJe8YqmvlxiSnwQi6bY3+XmWW lTzjexDywLoWGAjbR867WtpmII9v+TLKQe9KY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WJixq2TI6/jCsVnetf2Bs2PW9Ps1ioIUi5gq4VKkFcU=; b=rQQvlhD+oFuCYZwqierc42pjclMRWDSelGu0XSgDqT1RfL7qCd7GxYHdrUEYCaqFZc hy3oPjP9WMA6wArjmpSRzc29sNfRmV2ns+rRApYP/0G8Dbxk/t5LxBx1ARnQkP5E5JtV dOp1RMtb9cIf4jdSpflBbbO1Rb1ePZRNDkMjspfgIJM5LrDUJ6HzpzM1FHdEeVqKd/nR 8msrr923G1HWQbeS+YIgWdBNLJ66LjRRnzntiFtEU2tW+5UX2ow+LDnhu4mb9JUJ8tBa I+vWbBEq4Vk+jop+FaIOZtz0oJgcj4ZqdWEGh2M6RaZFVib8+Yd/IKBAmt0ji6kkpqFm O48g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nc/y+IBoD3pVfqzhwp8g//VDBpO8wfhRnq7Zl9A+AMX00OuWR opbAc8IzCQa1M2I7KNvBJIHolsIXmfl2Ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4oJKOErCQnzx2F/gBaqlUAsIf3lzqCeWQ2sOrcakT9V7hD1VeIlcMVspBhpcBpO/4IFN4Zg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:12cb:: with SMTP id v11mr9671538jas.13.1636509676564; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w5sm13403757ilv.83.2021.11.09.18.01.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:01:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38791a0e-ea13-2c6f-2f31-550030850bde@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:01:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:01:24 -0000 On 11/8/21 4:29 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 10:31 PM Martin J. Dürst > wrote: > > On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > S 4.2. > >     *  Policies regarding the file formats that are accepted as > input to > >        the editing and publication process. > > > >     *  Policies regarding the final structure and layout of published > >        documents.  In the context of the XML vocabulary > ([RFC7991]), such > >        policies could include matters such as the exact XML > elements and > >        attributes used to capture the semantic content of RFCs.  More > >        generally, such policies could address the readability and > >        presentation of information in RFCs. > > > > I actually don't think this is appropriate for the RPC to decide on > > either of these matters. They should be decided by the community. > > I agree, mostly. I wouldn't want the RSWG/RSAG to have to discuss each > and every XML element and attribute. But I would expect some of the > discussions to get fairly close to that. > > > Well, I also don't want the RPC to decide it unilaterally. So perhaps we > need some other process for that (which RSWG could invent). When writing that text, I had in mind the sorts of things that come up mostly within the editing team itself. Example: authors often structure tabulated information as because they can't figure out how to make an actual table work, but the editors would prefer to structure that information using the element. However, I see that the text as written is overly broad, so I'll propose tighter language. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:10:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2283A0EF3 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TLFjMyde4Gf9 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41A633A0EEE for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id k22so981258iol.13 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:10:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+aYX8/ZM8srPENa9bxoTLwdeYLsHACgiKm1E2Ly+nZc=; b=JoE0bOa4Wd7wwqCTmBAWWZQvSMBwxJtGFSq2/rNB7WPLjhHljYXUyg9nRXAEz8RfdH DZO3Sf8WdWUQwxU8hH/Zbq0OSMFh0Alm/Q1CjvcWgwZN8TP4tYAofQAM7CVGg5jDKwFQ jYCfzlzm0cniv332+WJ7pY/0BGT3pw0QW05UU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+aYX8/ZM8srPENa9bxoTLwdeYLsHACgiKm1E2Ly+nZc=; b=Fr272jSetnkfbTxZWzXJL+vV+mUdyrOBQFfOXlMlahLQpc6qOBlI7J9PCfnVpJfLiU CEZTeoC2jATNJ4rOwe128hyIN6eEukd7AZdHZfL7207Up7BbFCozKzVqeRuBJm6W6la4 fc7+irQRE5raxTh+LCl2BRP0Kev/hUqSTEhKQz9epMoTwdYeuvWb0BEmHJ22S45a+Xr+ ONJrKVsPme6h4umSf6Shnr/JgbKv6kDaMfjKF9QRd8aih7r7SOC/OYbzCBkivXw8ExBF dCFg7Bsmzn2g146GFZpN0+yNMedB+5jqF7fV0VEG6RBoBFGqH+no+kWA2a0CnfxDW+F6 mPSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xKVkds0VF57TKkEQtREIYT+Bl/6V9KWh7ElXQ3XNOrJxAn7c5 s0cZeLtXTkpPYiLMvt4QdUXsCQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYW5u21/94BxhxpJzsTW3fZ2EPVp/g8LfYZKZaltDGJEm+XCXeM4VxC6ngTtamHluTRWQ22w== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f812:: with SMTP id o18mr8180663ioh.64.1636510243014; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n4sm12759305ili.10.2021.11.09.18.10.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:10:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:10:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:10:46 -0000 On 11/9/21 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same >>> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >>> >>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >>> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >>> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as >>> RFCs. >> >> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process >> we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, published as >> RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about >> what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). > > The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs whose > effective content is one line of text. Like draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? ;-) > If the RSWG has something very > simple to say, it should just say it. As I understand it, folks are suggesting that we have a separate class of RFC Series "statements", proposed within the RSWG and approved by the RSAB, yet published not as RFCs but as pages on a website somewhere. This strikes me as a recipe for confusion (where does one find the policies if they're in two different places?). If the process we've specified results in a policy, let's publish that policy as an RFC in the Editorial Stream, end of story. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:29:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5703A0FC3 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:29:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFkq9QMoTszN for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB5C73A0FB8 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mkdMB-000NPg-I8; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 21:28:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 21:28:53 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham Message-ID: <5837DD7DBF0EEC2422D744D0@PSB> In-Reply-To: <89d7a01d-4a48-8ecf-18f7-ec192170124c@joelhalpern.com> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <89d7a01d-4a48-8ecf-18f7-ec192170124c@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:29:11 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 20:36 -0500 "Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > Brian, I do nto follow your logic. > > The only thing the RSWG is supposed to opin about is policy. > For policy, it is suppodsed to determine the rough consensus > of the larger community. THere are a series of hoops we have > selcted to try to achieve that. > > Minutes of a session of a meeting do not match that in any > fashion. > > If once or twice we actually need 1 content line RFCs, so be > it. The bits are cheap. If we need it more than that, > something very strange is going on. Brian, I largely agree with Joel. The bits associated with an RFC, even a short one, are cheap (a comment I first heard from Jon Postel in the 1980s. If we find ourselves needing to publish more than one or two of those in a six month period, I'd see that as not merely strange but a sign of either bad management, overspecification, or attempted micromanagement on the part of the RSWG/RSAB process. If we need multiple trivial-length RFCs to cause the community to be aware of such things, that might actually be a benefit. I'd also think that the RSAB ought to have the authority and good sense to combine multiple trivial-length I-Ds getting approved within the same general time period into single RFC if that made sense... and that the RPC ought to feel enabled to encourage that if they found themselves working on more than RFC process documents at the same time. And especially because I think we are talking about cases -- ones that ought to be rare or non-existent -- of many very short documents within a short period, if any of the above needs to be explicit in the document rather than assuming the relevant actors would have and apply good sense, I think we and the document, have serious problems. best, john From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:35:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533ED3A0FD4 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:35:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nm5xtbmN4sgo for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 442463A0FD9 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id h23so897365ila.4 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:35:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtIJh2IeGf7dHx4j2J2C9TdouMothIiAIpV2S/hzYSU=; b=UC4gWKb/ZNfjnGYdd4eIV2eIeMoYRDES98t+Ga89EuGn4/QfCLvZuJU/AM2jYo/Sku 3qoGuxO9YpXR9Aa1IVqfAF8dUrWt8VwlJDJc1TwIE3OPHfWPPd4llnXCbCdMQ9hoQf0f 3wduMBFN6MFZQcsT+0g1EPOf9M067BC9QePNo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AtIJh2IeGf7dHx4j2J2C9TdouMothIiAIpV2S/hzYSU=; b=AWI1Yb/6rwX9qTRNvpaH4HStNdNuQeP8bUBG5BAzHMTyFHPbGBqcFk0RbAPlo2Owji 8TK49NQbZ5exwxjaHO6WERbP2eOUEv6Dj53Yg8i+mqnv3WBZAqTkXMSPuEJnJaIC1b0c 2Zx8LaXYwCaakp+lDTJzUpzN81NG8tqPVrpT/BNpMnfvIjnwHuNshRtWMnl5AarPiItZ bxPTMfSeJGd8KDq6Mqk82lHCyj1C7OGXPCmSURYHxBlHh0wIURy6uS1tzKD/JMixdEC+ 2FJkImNR/oAAIfuvUD2Ze3bKGGFim7X3LkHH1To1FESH3xzVy8utzq6/Et0qUBlvq46c /dJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532T4jMvaTdK5o570j9ToiXIZh6JYHD/VzHpUk43ekUj+59H9Ag3 CT7O5rvw5Fbs7+j8GA6rzFncCQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzDNSbeVDn/ypUaiCn9hvL4AYKL5tmKEa2F51DXtrRhHhgo83kDsEU9ZjLabuyMmFXHsgPojw== X-Received: by 2002:a92:d78a:: with SMTP id d10mr9187447iln.108.1636511746257; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i4sm13143289ilm.9.2021.11.09.18.35.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:35:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <27c6567c-0958-7a23-d553-a70a838ca5a8@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:35:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , EKR References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <684eca25-2cba-1792-9566-ccbe4677e583@cs.tcd.ie> <50a5a6b4-b01c-32e8-7793-d761e6d6dfa6@lear.ch> <8611723b-1cbf-8cd3-e70c-78aa812f2da0@nthpermutation.com> <8479464b-0c0c-7691-e5bb-8d040a6c7583@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <8479464b-0c0c-7691-e5bb-8d040a6c7583@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:35:54 -0000 On 11/4/21 4:04 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 10/28/2021 3:16 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Mike, everyone, >> >> First, a point of clarification.  I don't have a strong position. I >> may not have couched my words properly, but my only bias really is to >> fix the issues we can now, and not attempt to fix the issues we can't. >> >> Christian has put things rather concretely by suggesting that >> fundamental parameters of the serious like whether RFCs are immutable >> might be changed.  There may be other aspects.  But I don't think we >> get through this without either dropping the word heritage or >> significantly elaborating it.  I think it may not be necessary to use >> the word.  See below. >> >> Furthermore, there are enough concerns around this matter, that I >> don't see how we don't expose the tension at all.  But there is a >> difference between exposing that tension and trying to govern it. I >> don't think we do any harm to Eric's concerns if we do the former >> (EKR, you can and should correct me if you strongly disagree, but see >> below), and I have very little confidence that we will find any >> consensus on the latter. >> >> With that in mind, we already have the following in Section 3.2.1: >> >>>    Because policy issues can be difficult and contentious, RSWG >>>    participants and RSAB members are strongly encouraged to work >>>    together in a spirit of good faith and mutual understanding to >>>    achieve rough consensus (see [RFC7282]).  In particular, RSWG members >>>    are encouraged to take RSAB concerns seriously, and RSAB members are >>>    encouraged to clearly express their concerns early in the process and >>>    to be responsive to the community.  All parties are encouraged to >>>    respect the value of each stream and the long-term health and >>>    viability of the RFC Series. >> >> Perhaps it is this last sentence that we might amend: >> >>>  All parties are encouraged to, respect the value of each stream and >>> the long-term health and >>>  viability of the RFC Series, and to give consideration for both the >>> factors that have led to the series'  wide acceptance, and those that >>> require it to evolve to see to its continued success. >> >> Obviously those factors will be a matter of, perhaps intense, debate. >> Our rough consensus process is designed to allow for that tension to >> play out; but it requires a modicum of trust, that people will act in >> good faith toward one another.  You have all generally done an >> exemplary job of that here.  I hope that spirit would carry forward >> into the RSWG. >> >> Eliot >> > Eliot, et al - > > What I'm looking at is stealing and expanding text from sections 2.2 and > 2.3 of Bob Braden's/ISI's last report for the RFC Editor contract > (sections titled "Editorial Policy" and "Quality of Documents"). Do you mean this? https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/FinalReport-CY2002-Mar2007.pdf >  I > think "principles" is actually the right word vs heritage, but we have a > heritage of conforming to those principles :-) to the notable success of > the series.  Ignoring those principles would probably be a Bad Thing (tm). > > Basically, identifying what's been critical for the success of the > series:  readability, stability, allowances for author individuality, et > al and placing guardrails (metarules) to make sure that changes proposed > by the RSWG and approved by the RSAB respect such principles seems to me > to be just good engineering. > > I think that's more than a few sentences, but not more than 3-4 > paragraphs in a section probably titled "Principles for RSWG and RSAB > policy formation" In principle I have no objections to specifying some principles. ;-) Interestingly, versions 1 and 2 of the RFC Editor Model didn't specify such principles, although they do mention some relevant considerations such as document quality and accessibility. Life went on and RFCs continued to be published in a reasonable fashion. In addition, RFC 8729 mentions principles such as expert implementation, clear management and direction, and appropriate community input (which we borrowed for the introduction to our document). As far as I can see, the ISI report you reference expresses some opinions (e.g. "ISI strongly believes that it is important to minimize the number of errors in published documents") that don't necessarily reflect consensus from within the IETF or RFC communities. I do wonder whether this is the time or place to work out such principles, or whether that's something the RSWG should do once it's formed. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:42:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772513A0FE8 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BA4zWb_taw4E for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C54B3A0FE3 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id o4so1240395pfp.13 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xkQC/l5XuvKY70GqX2OIClNLAhjNnu2UQcvoTRi+hPc=; b=IUVZvuQnfoHTvzzPMb37+a1mFIWSeN1abqJ0i4zl3Es/73tTCMFO4fMFzT62EJ/4Uk 6jxbuP1B3rU+6nN5fzLLw9ekLkZ8H1YcRknMna7XHnEbRq+fg1v/5clCqFrX7zgW8c69 ubWThub3+3HBfX1Gbuu3I4dOxJ4mHFaUozpMYpQVK5fuYT2Es1RgvTwLrwe5Nt5IYA2Q slMXei+TwGt+o+CyKBSTaeCzu2jY2Z5oyEsKqR3OG8JGWdIVW7dq6k+Z1jGOgX6DZkNx 4Swmyp6HNwkdBABkVoknwcB77LMDo1jQv5E+qwUDVlsB9+bUZpH1rHA2hg+R8kczNnIw KcSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xkQC/l5XuvKY70GqX2OIClNLAhjNnu2UQcvoTRi+hPc=; b=fUUmI9BjJ6nssWkBvKBt+POiB/9zYAQqCC7dBiH0iEwEaqM1m4ruTlA7cDOX4gx9SF 0gHblmAZZe8dGg8FsoxGk5xGrCoSTaEXoNG64JCJIR7hj9P1GsaOSB+Z8uAno1pOWkEW XF6lQ0YifS2gmioNEgqZBwuDdjETUkSr7AZJN/Kk48OZ/OP5uerP5k2BBN1w8R5rC+v2 bGKGI1UGnuPLA8cvXCAf9UGJk1Ry8Lb5MN+3CVBkbRVBLvK9nY3yTsnWP0OkgVNWZ6On 3TMC74FJgwAvCDULtvaVq6qp2bGqX5rjMNWyPLc0Znb7wNuuH8Ny2wTJTGd6xiURByHy zY8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vr0oYzFLzMhlnF+MRnaNTbpZKhc/mqq4IwQMUi/X/ITHVDPEl mwcVsHodGA1gWpGPCctn5cCj0pC+7fnoXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxx3/tA8ppkVxNVZZo/FYVjfRU2BCzzfL/DRuUZFOCEW8sVScNH+nlE/QuZ5z4QibW0kiS1+A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:16c6:b029:32d:e190:9dd0 with SMTP id l6-20020a056a0016c6b029032de1909dd0mr96015197pfc.70.1636512132208; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i19sm8266108pfu.119.2021.11.09.18.42.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:42:11 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:42:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:42:19 -0000 Peter, (Also trying to reply to Joel's point.) On 10-Nov-21 15:10, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/9/21 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the same >>>> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >>>> >>>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >>>> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >>>> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being published as >>>> RFCs. >>> >>> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process >>> we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, published as >>> RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about >>> what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). >> >> The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs whose >> effective content is one line of text. > > Like draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? ;-) > >> If the RSWG has something very >> simple to say, it should just say it. > > As I understand it, folks are suggesting that we have a separate class > of RFC Series "statements", proposed within the RSWG and approved by the > RSAB, yet published not as RFCs but as pages on a website somewhere. > This strikes me as a recipe for confusion (where does one find the > policies if they're in two different places?). If the process we've > specified results in a policy, let's publish that policy as an RFC in > the Editorial Stream, end of story. If there's a page of substantive content, sure. I had in mind something more like: "RSWG members agreed that the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs requires a major update." It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 is policy.) How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? Brian From nobody Tue Nov 9 18:58:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2D13A1037 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:58:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sMKJXkEEBoS4 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A75D03A1038 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id k1so930320ilo.7 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:58:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KK0+1MthzLtdlQn01lZgCzIPkhalbfHqEfy8z6OX9h0=; b=YV+NrWiN4qaVkoEbnNFoyyGx4wJE9t/UWSF4X8YMXn7KmTSY3p4NAh++mlJSTII9n9 CaGHG0gD4OWZ8fuqsxTaXrZcACwES4olO9bBjTqfvZWQccemJo32ucKFxwRYnmRMbFlY xcVA1qM1Ongp0GvXcSXHJ1puD+zXJ7QpigVG4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KK0+1MthzLtdlQn01lZgCzIPkhalbfHqEfy8z6OX9h0=; b=vczvplBNPEe1Tw34Vh3w47sa+q7sZ1nIfVDTnH8TmHTN7UoQpUS572lhE6O2842kAV gEO/y+MYCCyW6Ndc/2oYK7RujOEqnUVEMhx4ZxrpQSxZSputdXDhgWJHtGPt/tdUQH/+ K3EzhXTRgUkafg9KxaLdVMRdlvx60IQYjN2RtWwlhKJGxrkpY6Ymx7uIJH/c+UmwPAjU yrsb/wzfKuTFHFDshI4vdI3yxZkMS6BH1suhFgcTBvlbNj+ABF0l5Bl+kpf+o9vtLcoz X4SooI1b/Nk64fjoopi6TmONa04Vg2fQ4bnq7tghx0b3n6XBoN6oo2pVCOf2X7a08oJq GjbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532y/xuHMTgYphnJoPrI4sCELZMql6ZC4hhs2+kkm42AE6YJINGs U3MuS8foCxrIM6xWx7FO/NGVV1K3XO7otg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyB6eeSmkYW31HrMuv64XbgjjtqU8yMKLUD5P8BoqQ7DMaXGF96vMRGbc8GuWCFLX7aWKwiHQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1025:: with SMTP id o5mr9162734ilj.133.1636513082582; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y6sm13322986ilu.38.2021.11.09.18.58.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:58:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:57:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 02:58:10 -0000 On 11/9/21 7:42 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Peter, > > (Also trying to reply to Joel's point.) > > On 10-Nov-21 15:10, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the >>>>> same >>>>> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >>>>> >>>>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >>>>> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >>>>> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being >>>>> published as >>>>> RFCs. >>>> >>>> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process >>>> we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, >>>> published as >>>> RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about >>>> what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). >>> >>> The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs >>> whose >>> effective content is one line of text. >> >> Like draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? ;-) >> >>> If the RSWG has something very >>> simple to say, it should just say it. >> >> As I understand it, folks are suggesting that we have a separate class >> of RFC Series "statements", proposed within the RSWG and approved by the >> RSAB, yet published not as RFCs but as pages on a website somewhere. >> This strikes me as a recipe for confusion (where does one find the >> policies if they're in two different places?). If the process we've >> specified results in a policy, let's publish that policy as an RFC in >> the Editorial Stream, end of story. > > If there's a page of substantive content, sure. I had in mind > something more like: > > "RSWG members agreed that the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs > requires a major update." > > It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community > might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. As I understand it, general agreement that we need to fix our use of SVG in RFCs could lead in several different directions, such as: - creating a design team to report back to the RSWG with recommendations - suggesting the addition of related tasks to the RPC's work plan (e.g., survey RFC authors regarding the tools they use to generate SVG) - conferring with the RSCE about best practices for SVG generation in technical publishing It's not clear to me how either an RFC or a "statement" is needed in order to do those things. > However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant > RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 > is policy.) > > How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? By communicating with the RSCE, LLC executive director, RPC folks, interested RSWG participants, etc. And, of course, all of these individuals should already be part of the discussions happening in the RSWG, so this kind of communication ought to happen quite naturally. Nothing special required as far as I can see. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 9 19:05:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934A03A104A for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:05:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pot6zLw3pIXC for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B23EF3A1045 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 19:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id m9so1221568iop.0 for ; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 19:05:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ud6evSxDxYjQkcX+4F3y7D4tiCvokjfzqHUtqj+4KUI=; b=Kr1/fDgcyFbmw9jXtPCIlHn2rwJJF68GotBeHy5uxn9Sq14ss6rLZ0NUuHWXqiUGYK JtJstWERA1kiwlPy1RjahoUsxiy0RXtKiUY16q4f7GVwD41EaBr7+QiPjzlpEh5UxYhe 7Z01sUqhRk7DR1ZT6ZeWoXmRufCtTjZYp9bcg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ud6evSxDxYjQkcX+4F3y7D4tiCvokjfzqHUtqj+4KUI=; b=FYXK3AJfiNzA1kU3LkDnSL4SThdl1NjgTgz1ALRxv08mbOmKaY4000lg9qtul09g6y 9gEuRXooIDUIrwuYJothgrQaryLAwQMncV/CDoTancoitbp0Mwc5jRbzZOU4e49htKGw 7BF4ripzN0+C9350yW3kgo4BMR6rPVab2fPYEmyw73d7pVNMr4oWMxD5KCabNtEVQLLl 6kM6Iq7jcIBvajJaFWaN7qxxy4em9H02oXjQhwTzDZFwAw40WnzL97nLk1ohVaNORlvz M/zfbE+dqtN1ItcJdjzMjcPri7hHyWUFLpJ9ZRPOZY2AMp6/XwQyJuV6kcH88V+y443k l60Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wYTgj46S+ZeeoRfWmKbIJTxZ8ykqKE7hdpCwZ9tuKxDh+7kJx dlafQq5BEmIdy4LyKu71I29f5w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyC/fPfIlum5LWXFJt5cjTtq1LrZgNoMC3MhnUL6cu/u5LbVz7lM8St/NUodANu7d7zThwFg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9504:: with SMTP id d4mr8243273iom.49.1636513529717; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 19:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p18sm12420135iov.44.2021.11.09.19.05.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Nov 2021 19:05:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:05:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:05:35 -0000 On 11/5/21 3:30 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > TIL a new word: guidelie. > Goes into my preferred active vocabulary right away… Oh yes, I can think of many uses for this one! > (Other nits below.) > > I can’t say I am happy with this document, but I may have to accept it as the best that could be achieved at this point. > > "The RSCE provides expert advice to the RPC and RSAB on how to implement established policies”. I would like to make explicit that it is very much the job of the RSCE to watch the actual impact of these policies and to make proposals to remedy any shortcomings and to create continuous improvement, out of actively observing both creation/production and reception. Section 5 does state that the primary responsibilities of the RSCE include: * Identify problems with the RFC publication process and opportunities for improvement * Provide expert advice regarding policy proposals within the RSWG Do you think we need to expand those descriptions? > Others have already commented on the strangely passive role afforded to the RSCE by this document (5: “if requested”, “be consulted”), which needs to be fixed. The responsibilities mentioned above don't seem passive to me. But Eliot made a few suggestions (e.g., remove "if requested") that seemed good. > Also, it looks like the power of the RSE has to a large part been transferred to whoever calls the shots at the RPC (e.g., see 4.4). Section 4.4 is about document-specific disagreements about the application of existing policies (or highly constrained, temporary workarounds or decisions when there are gaps in existing policies). That doesn't strike me as the "power of the RSE" as traditionally exercised, which IMHO is more related to policy definition - the very things that we're now investing in the community via the RSWG. > I have a lot of trust in the people who are performing this function now, but policies are made to reduce the need for unconditional reliance on such trust. Isn't that the entire point of this Program? > Both the RPC and the RSCE ultimately report to the IETF Admin LLC. Diving a bit deeper into what some may think of as paranoia, these contractual relationships cannot be out in the open, and clearly a future manipulative IED could do a lot of damage here. I believe we need to develop some rules of transparency here (I’m going to avoid the term whistleblower, but there should be defined emergency communication channels from dependent entities such as RPC and RSCE to entities such as the LLC board, that are not subject to contractual restrictions not already required by US law). I'm not qualified to speak about these matters (e.g., the extent to which U.S. law requires that "these contractual relationships cannot be out in the open"). 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Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:58:55 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:58:35 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Peter Saint-Andre" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:05 -0000 On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, at 10:15, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about appeals. >> >> For #93, I suggest: >> >> OLD: >> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general policy. >> NEW: >> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a more general policy. > > I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably people > or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks, > document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, etc.). The problem I'm trying to address here is that there is no responsibility in the original text. Who owns the decision? Sure, in most cases, things will just be resolved to mutual satisfaction. But someone has to be responsible if the decision is wrong. > The bit about referring the matter to the RSWG seems mostly fine, > although I'm not 100% sure about the order of events I don't care about order of events. Maybe instead: > However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements. Disagreements about the interpretation of policies shall be referred to the RSWG so they might consider proposals for policies that address shortcomings. > It seems to me that (1) appeals aren't usually successful so why > encourage them I don't see how the text I proposed did that. I'm just trying to say what can be appealed and what cannot. > (2) sometimes a decision needs to be made with relative alacrity Not sure how that is relevant to that text either. If relative alacrity is necessary, that doesn't absolve those responsible from their responsibility to conform with established policies. > (3) it's more important to figure out whether we need a general > policy and to get that policy right than it is to second-guess or appeal > a decision covered under (2). Yes, I agree, but I would prefer that the appeal be answered that way than there be no recourse when there is a direct and deliberate violation of policy. As the remediation for appeals of this nature is probably just better clarification of policies (and not any form of censure on RSAB members or anything like that), I fail to see why this proposal is objectionable. As for MSJ's response: > established by the RSWG. replace with > established by the process described in this document. From nobody Tue Nov 9 20:12:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC293A1150 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:12:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id goJ-i_dhMmBs for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0C203A114F for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mkexu-000Nal-OU; Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:12:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 23:11:56 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , "Joel M. Halpern" cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <8CF4D0D3E90A96453192BEEB@PSB> In-Reply-To: <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:12 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 15:42 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Peter, > > (Also trying to reply to Joel's point.) > > On 10-Nov-21 15:10, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go >>>>> through the same process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be >>>>> published in the series. >>>>> >>>>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the >>>>> RSWG/RSAB venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB >>>>> approval or expedited publication in the RFC series, I >>>>> don't object to them being published as RFCs. >>>> >>>> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through >>>> the process we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, >>>> approved by RSAB, published as RFC) so as to trim the >>>> decision tree and forestall confusion about what's a >>>> "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). >>> >>> The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number >>> of RFCs whose effective content is one line of text. >> >> Like draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? ;-) >> >>> If the RSWG has something very >>> simple to say, it should just say it. >> >> As I understand it, folks are suggesting that we have a >> separate class of RFC Series "statements", proposed within >> the RSWG and approved by the RSAB, yet published not as RFCs >> but as pages on a website somewhere. This strikes me as a >> recipe for confusion (where does one find the policies if >> they're in two different places?). If the process we've >> specified results in a policy, let's publish that policy as >> an RFC in the Editorial Stream, end of story. > > If there's a page of substantive content, sure. I had in mind > something more like: > > "RSWG members agreed that the definition of acceptable SVG in > RFCs > requires a major update." > > It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG > community > might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as > policy. > However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant > RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC > 7996 > is policy.) > > How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? While I'm not either Peter or Joel, I would have no problems with either (1) Putting that information into an I-D even if the only thing that will eventually turn into an RFC is that major update. (2) Making an announcement to some appropriate places including ietf-announce. In addition, it that is the sort of one-line statement you are talking about, I'd rather see an RFC that actually explains the issue and/or the reasoning. The sentence is a bad case of insider-speak. > Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? Peter and Joel will need to speak for themselves, but I think it is a tutorial and, while tutorials are not themselves policy, the advice they give often is. best, john From nobody Tue Nov 9 22:00:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2FE3A128B; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:00:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Y6H3iT0o; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=F/5j19LE Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YaBQQ_ijB9aY; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 928B63A1262; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E743201D92; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:00:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=V GZIyDgzJGNlXatyB09otx/WxuR1Rdh1iNU6KEJ0sVM=; b=Y6H3iT0oqED3jfOnO VgzXjlxMknSU7YJE9ZXNEl/srRl6nn/U6vk60GcElZvrOmcN2qswXc5m20Fq03TB KVMURDW/O2yEi0D/OShXDeLzvj+D7zKA5EX8+pynYTrA4U+e+NGPBcSa1TGCojFl 9esTrvm9SH9QXdQmSGkFP+Sg55W/yMBCVoO2KcWd6ipWPfmapbtVHL3JMVggwINF 8V/aZGW6qiF+8q41iNewr/M9ZdrveY0w/+dANl5YVg44szRlAT/82mlmmAq7DYP9 iPuaIg+E6aOMtFkdIAVbctT+Nf3tc9RBmRs12M++/ASgldRiMrCLzJkERhnJBgMi 1XgMA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=VGZIyDgzJGNlXatyB09otx/WxuR1Rdh1iNU6KEJ0s VM=; b=F/5j19LE9OmIDKfZpqH1RhX/xkZJPaQ4ljbaBGsciHn8dK91XcLeLGtVR 5TKlQBuS01a5dcICO6fN6wbZ6sCEvEqrIdndCxQi3FavzmH4GuRhi+TShmQ4IXhH KD1zNU7NTc++HLRIrhqlVtrPBZQYOFQWKNZ0dErG5TNDV7Joje4m+Le3shRv3I0c CFfFPuBBdswo0qAJ/Z77PsYNfj6xQUCvgM9zlpmj0YHDagcpJDix3oLuhhDuYmxV kxv3L8rDaX2aYQvsefAbKnPRFoR6as32Tyi9Rpg40GunQXX1SU8hN1y6PZHgoBn+ YdACBjntD7isj7b0RCFat95CQlFOQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudehgdekhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtjehmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepffeuudehgefgueeiledukeduteefhfegvefgkeeikeetffelffdujefgleefteeh necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:00:28 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:00:25 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:00:40 -0000 Just to make sure -- > On 10 Nov 2021, at 2:05 pm, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > Section 5 does state that the primary responsibilities of the RSCE include: > > * Identify problems with the RFC publication process and > opportunities for improvement I hope that we can agree that this is not the exclusive purview of the RSCE. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 9 22:05:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875DF3A129C for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=nzXFz4Bv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=QrHl0+/p Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2jCYWS36sdMO for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B631A3A1297 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2021 22:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DA932019DA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:05:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=s mwGJKwhRVpEgLmxskMbaItHknOqHFaH9V3Sx8CCKM8=; b=nzXFz4BvmS1S75ToU Ok2Af9pI2RHFeeN0QNql35i/jP4YrHBa87xC/g2U4qj1j3bMRyj4l42+zdwxQp5l OW+6PrjK3hMjJc7O6eaJBQ+PdWqziI1xByTBJcw3at8ze6l9oR4ZDRZQBYBzrbfk rzSgHMlcTGMN8nVR52o7roJRoaNzJV9E7k8508Q9s4I+JXYyraclzVxyUQxi0kMN vtQa+EOogOK3d8aOxKYX+bJRXIXjOWaZxCniUKtD8iCROld+HdFtzQC2A/X0NnLo f0v8yUQ4JEVVQOJypgDEfcTVZ21uN/4l/SVU1nL1WOsfEoIjYmn8SMIm7Lnfaphg Ld1sQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=smwGJKwhRVpEgLmxskMbaItHknOqHFaH9V3Sx8CCK M8=; b=QrHl0+/pYO6aR+wctIXB4mReSoDDgnqBYWurlBKxB1uAKKKEf0ZmmM1Kk 73CCA99lNzvF4l/jPiDiL5CuL/1TtrIKQ8m5nk6n1n9ucD2HuYadtk/9s1i3UG6u KS+XQpO3vrzfwV60EEK4hB/VAlQ1nzOxGvE8n8zK8dfGXV8V1E99A8lebrbbl3+X dZxqvEHitf8FjuLtKEgyloyrcAxNZXSALiNqgWoVNfZdayYala2yeH+pNA71yQdk ljhZx/wF25Sg/Yqnyod0L9e6T/5FbiBzm1FlqBg8ie/FcUtvWhRlgEiTH4kOzbKV zr4bUiUo6rKbXwO2IBF+uVtgif7aw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudehgdekiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:05:23 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:05:19 +1100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:05:32 -0000 > On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community > might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. > However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant > RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 > is policy.) >=20 > How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >=20 > Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to = oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out of = the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, = which implies RSWG involvement. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 00:57:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D473A089C for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:57:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCi_fffynRXr for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------P6l4BUNLV7t0AWwetXYFegvT" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] A word about today's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:57:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------P6l4BUNLV7t0AWwetXYFegvT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1dW301AzXbjF2xuw5Z9pj8Iz"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <7ab76ba6-73d5-ffe2-12cc-afd2afbc4da2@lear.ch> Subject: A word about today's meeting --------------1dW301AzXbjF2xuw5Z9pj8Iz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Hi everyone,

The slides have been updated to add the issues that Eric mentioned.=C2=A0 If I have MISSED any issues, please could you note= them in email.=C2=A0 After the close of our last call we do have a = good few issues to deal with.=C2=A0 The good news is that a good many ar= e editorial.=C2=A0 We do not propose to spend much time on those, and= will work with the editor to address those issues out of band.=C2=A0= More good news: we seem to have converged on a number of changes.=C2= =A0 We hope not to spend much time on those.

There are a handful of issues that have not garnered any additional support.=C2=A0 We propose to give people time today to v= oice support, but we ask that people be brief.

We would like to spend most of the time on issues where we do not yet see clear consensus.=C2=A0 Those are these:

<= col style=3D"mso-width-source:userset;width:201pt" width=3D"268"> <= col style=3D"mso-width-source:userset;width:225pt" width=3D"300"> <= /colgroup>

= 93

=

= Appeals against RSAB decisions

= Proposed text from Martin

= Discuss

= 94

=

= Who resolves disputes when they need to be timely?

= Proposed text from Martin

= Discuss

= 117

= RSWG for everything?

= RPC responsibilities and the community

= Lots of discussion on list

= Discuss

= 129

= RSWG Chairs issue community last call instead of RSAB

= Different views

= Discuss


As always, the group gets to decide all of this, but if we are business like, we should be able to get through the agenda.

Eliot

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port 10024) with ESMTP id pb9QDzbUj9eJ for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8956D3A0AA0 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5200B4196FB0; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SK_zN2MAU1UT; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72C2E403C203; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:18:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:18:20 +1300 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org> <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:18:33 -0000 > On 10/11/2021, at 11:11 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate = discussion issue to the list. Here it is: >>>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the = draft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE. >>>>> For the RPC vendor one we say: >>>>> The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will = consist >>>>> of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected = by the >>>>> IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers. >>>>> For the RSCE one we say: >>>>> The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including = members from >>>>> the community, that will be responsible for making a = recommendation >>>>> to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. >>>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director = explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers. >>>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And = if so, why? >>>>=20 >>>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might = comment, but >>>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC = that >>>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each = commitee. >>>=20 >>> Yes either or both, no preference. >>>>=20 >>>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream = managers in >>>> the loop is essential for the RPC case, >>>=20 >>> I agree. >>>=20 >>>> and having the community in general >>>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE. >>>=20 >>> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee = who understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because = they are=20 >> representatives of one group or another. >> Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was = just tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn't = mean you'd choose randoms. >=20 > =46rom my perspective as document editor, I'd say the difference was = not intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree that we = want to follow the same or a similar process for both selection = committees. The RSCE text was written later and I think is more = reflective of list discussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying = that over for the description of the RPC vendor selection committee as = well. Sorry but the difference in composition should stay as those are the = relevant compositions for the two different contracts. Jay > Peter >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 10 01:23:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93193A0AB5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EAPavjEQ6uza for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D41C3A0AAD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AEE4196FBC; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XsKhM_BQTwBJ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3DF64403C203; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_61BF5825-E0FC-41DE-841E-8EA5A312EFB5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:23:11 +1300 In-Reply-To: <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:23:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_61BF5825-E0FC-41DE-841E-8EA5A312EFB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>> On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that = policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of = publication of an RFC. >>>>>=20 >>>>> WFM. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Peter >>>>>=20 >>>> I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other = emails that have occurred since this thread started. >>>>=20 >>>> Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, = does not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding = or the tasking in place to make such things happen. The period of time = between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document = through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to = figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing. >>>>=20 >>>> At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed = by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from = the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the = RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat = similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent = submissions. >>>>=20 >>>> Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with = early implementation - how are those differentiated during the = evaluation process? >>>=20 >>> I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval = by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the RSAB". = Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until processes, = practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. >>>=20 >> "may" not "can" I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an = objection due to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" >=20 > Seems reasonable, thanks. I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must = implement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in = reality it needs to plan and schedule and prioritise with the rest of = its work, and also consider any extra resourcing it may need to as the = LLC for. Jay >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_61BF5825-E0FC-41DE-841E-8EA5A312EFB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>= wrote:

On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
On = 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, = Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

What I am hearing is that we = should add a sentence saying that policies take upon approval by the = RSAB, regardless of the timing of publication of an RFC.

WFM.

Peter

I originally = agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails that have = occurred since this thread started.

Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the = document, does not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the = funding or the tasking in place to make such things happen.  The = period of time between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final = document through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et = al to figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing.

At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB = approval be followed by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early = implementation from the LLC before any work begins just because neither = the RSAB nor the RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it = as being somewhat similar to the conflict review the IESG does for = independent submissions.

Also, there are = documents that won't require/can't be done with early implementation - = how are those differentiated during the evaluation process?

I see your points. We can change = "policies take effect upon approval by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take = effect upon approval by the RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually = take effect until processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to = make it so.

"may" not = "can"  I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due to = the need to resolve resource or contract issues"

Seems reasonable, thanks.

I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound = as if the RPC must implement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC = objects, when in reality it needs to plan and schedule and prioritise = with the rest of its work, and also consider any extra resourcing it may = need to as the LLC for.

Jay


Peter

-- 
Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_61BF5825-E0FC-41DE-841E-8EA5A312EFB5-- From nobody Wed Nov 10 01:24:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678633A0ACD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id maQlpnvWRqYM for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BD283A0AB9 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD984196FBC; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PVxBUXYORziP; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1D23403C203; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:24:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <6caeaf42-ebad-22e8-2d49-f84d309c80ac@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:24:27 +1300 Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <3CC023AE-CCFB-4C54-8D0A-2E519ADA8C1F@ietf.org> <33004691-949f-415a-8f01-ba9efe7ff8df@www.fastmail.com> <3E99E95F-13CC-469F-BC26-DE2D8BBE50EC@ietf.org> <78605005-de9b-44fb-a452-ded54b3a79cf@www.fastmail.com> <6caeaf42-ebad-22e8-2d49-f84d309c80ac@mozilla.com> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:24:41 -0000 > On 10/11/2021, at 2:36 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/1/21 3:39 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 06:33, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> On 1/11/2021, at 11:50 PM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, at 07:08, Jay Daley wrote: >>>>> In the case that the RSCE is expected to be unavailable for an = extended >>>>> period then the IETF LLC may appoint a Temporary RSCE through = whatever >>>>> recruitment process it considers appropriate. A Temporary RSCE = acts as >>>>> the RSCE in all aspects during their term of appointment >>>>=20 >>>> How would you distinguish this from a "full" appointment, such that = it warrants a note like this? >>>=20 >>> This process is limited, as per the first clause, to a situation = where >>> there is already an RSCE but they are unavailable. It does not = cover >>> the situation where the post is empty and so the full appointment >>> process has to be followed then. >> Ok, then this is fine. >=20 > For the avoidance of doubt, we might want to say "the currently = appointed RSCE" or some such. "the RSCE" cannot mean anything else but I don=E2=80=99t object to this = change. Jay >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 10 03:46:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31B43A0E6E; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:46:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K6dSkrg5cL-w; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDF493A0E63; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AABkVu42660012 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:46:31 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636544791; bh=kAus1E+q18HBX6wp05TMbFKWQbxBTlslshl1iqo/oSw=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=plWBGS76rBhDfxj15EQkHZsu3CUo0eLP8gYxpa8P/DubU7/tePeXovSodIXvHAnTj mgJ8ISuTWBxMRoVeB0jaOr3tKnpRaVbhZNeO5zeR5gZhPwSWn3n26ciNhXsuFttK0L xAprRDubI4r/ihL0dVWGKefOaPzLjvG7M5Q/YZZU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:46:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------vxR0asL46OpTzH0SB1ngIVO3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development 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<08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:50:38 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d80fe505d06dd74a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:51:21 -0000 --000000000000d80fe505d06dd74a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Well, I do think we need *some* text because the RPC backlog can be quite long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC processing completes... On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:23 AM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > > On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > > On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that policies > take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of publication of > an RFC. > > > WFM. > > Peter > > I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails > that have occurred since this thread started. > > Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does not > necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the > tasking in place to make such things happen. The period of time between > the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document through the > process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to figure out how to > do what the document is requesting/directing. > > At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by a > request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from the LLC > before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG can > obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat similar to > the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions. > > Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early > implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation process? > > > I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval by > the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the RSAB". > Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until processes, > practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. > > "may" not "can" I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due > to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" > > > Seems reasonable, thanks. > > > I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must > implement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in reality > it needs to plan and schedule and prioritise with the rest of its work, and > also consider any extra resourcing it may need to as the LLC for. > > Jay > > > Peter > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000d80fe505d06dd74a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, I do think we need *some* text because the RPC backl= og can be quite long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC processing co= mpletes...

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:23 AM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:


On 10/11/2021= , at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns= wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
O= n 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
= On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

What= I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that policies take up= on approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of publication of an RFC.=

WFM.

Peter

I originally agr= eed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails that have occur= red since this thread started.

Basically, approval by the RSAB for p= ublication of the document, does not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE= has either the funding or the tasking in place to make such things happen.= =C2=A0 The period of time between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting th= e final document through the process provides some breathing room for the L= LC et al to figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing.=

At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be follow= ed by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from = the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG c= an obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat similar = to the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions.

Al= so, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early= implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation proces= s?

I see your points. We can change "policies take= effect upon approval by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect= upon approval by the RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually = take effect until processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to make = it so.

"may" not "can"=C2=A0 I beli= eve, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due to the need to res= olve resource or contract issues"

= Seems reasonable, thanks.

I would pre= fer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must implement every n= ew RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in reality it needs to plan= and schedule and prioritise with the rest of its work, and also consider a= ny extra resourcing it may need to as the LLC for.

Jay


--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000d80fe505d06dd74a-- From nobody Wed Nov 10 03:55:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC463A0E7E for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R0cFFDdXttmU for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D67333A0E82 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq3FN3Vvmz6G8MY; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:55:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636545320; bh=pL/DlFwXntOdOSJeSGq6dmVOC0VbXscnra52Lg882A0=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=i7RPdp9OBlPq7D6RcESLjvOg5nJZEgmTJZIYTqdkPMoYpJzRTQhvIHfZtVmStfDWe sPzfM+CpK3FjQD34QrtdOrClK/tu6N6mueD/yKa+a7KW7sSa1kzM0LptEbqctF3/FQ PxI3tHqz8fLnQ2ifcCDxki066GoUgzsSqen8vt/8= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq3FM6hbjz6G9H9; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:55:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:55:25 -0000 Maybe I am misunderstanding your example. That sure looks like the start of an RSWB process (however they want to do it) of figuring out what the policy for SVG should be. Just telling the RPC "do something better" is not policy, it is badly formed management. Whether the RSWG wants to agree on some requrieemnts, appoint a design team, or solicit advice (or some combination of those, or something else) is up to them, and is not part of the policy. If they agree on requirements, and think that the requirements should be binding in some fashion, those could become an RFC. Or maybe those are an example of an informational RFC? But the one liner is not policy, and is not a directive from the RSWG to anyone. Yours, Joel On 11/9/2021 9:42 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Peter, > > (Also trying to reply to Joel's point.) > > On 10-Nov-21 15:10, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/9/21 6:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 10-Nov-21 13:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/5/21 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> FWIW, I was anticipating that these statements would go through the >>>>> same >>>>> process as RFCs, they just wouldn't be published in the series. >>>>> >>>>> With that said, if we can agree that RFCs published by the RSWG/RSAB >>>>> venue either have immediate effect upon RSAB approval or expedited >>>>> publication in the RFC series, I don't object to them being >>>>> published as >>>>> RFCs. >>>> >>>> IMHO it would be best for such pronouncements to go through the process >>>> we've outlined in our document (RSWG I-D, approved by RSAB, >>>> published as >>>> RFC) so as to trim the decision tree and forestall confusion about >>>> what's a "statement" (non-RFC) and what's a "policy" (RFC). >>> >>> The issue I see there is that it might lead to a fair number of RFCs >>> whose >>> effective content is one line of text. >> >> Like draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? ;-) >> >>> If the RSWG has something very >>> simple to say, it should just say it. >> >> As I understand it, folks are suggesting that we have a separate class >> of RFC Series "statements", proposed within the RSWG and approved by the >> RSAB, yet published not as RFCs but as pages on a website somewhere. >> This strikes me as a recipe for confusion (where does one find the >> policies if they're in two different places?). If the process we've >> specified results in a policy, let's publish that policy as an RFC in >> the Editorial Stream, end of story. > > If there's a page of substantive content, sure. I had in mind > something more like: > > "RSWG members agreed that the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs > requires a major update." > > It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community > might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. > However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant > RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 > is policy.) > > How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? > > Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? > >    Brian > > From nobody Wed Nov 10 03:59:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5A23A0E8E for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eOXXnCLeiXPe for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 206DC3A0E8A for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq3Kc6pxBz6G9Kd; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636545540; bh=LfGXlR7uAAxkYLrK7DXa96fomppad7iPYPyvRqlb/mU=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=hChiFjJrHhgcO+fqOrwaVMrgL2n/wFBG6ybn4HZcX4ptktLhAmZJIc0OLsItd/Cyc gVCDENGgLndID5OH9jFLGoF8SYWZT8KPpEtYacR0ZbRXq7AEMhpA2ZoGQbso0+fAHr 5MYpjL+iYbhmRXeVY5KKpnwQsngDYC7Mr+d1gwn8= X-Quarantine-ID: <55RQWbu2U6JK> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq3Kc2rP1z6G8wf; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:59:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> From: Joel Halpern Direct In-Reply-To: <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:59:06 -0000 As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG. And the result would be policy. But "go, do better" is NOT policy. It's not even good management. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community >> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >> is policy.) >> >> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >> >> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? > > Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out of the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, which implies RSWG involvement. > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 03:59:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041FD3A0E93 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZmUVSW6bMNpG for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C36D93A0E91 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A574196FC4; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxVP-HERFeYt; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A2A2403C203; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 03:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_38BD860E-2E05-42AF-AC8F-910FDED34346" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:59:37 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns To: Eric Rescorla References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:59:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_38BD860E-2E05-42AF-AC8F-910FDED34346 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 11/11/2021, at 12:50 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > Well, I do think we need *some* text because the RPC backlog can be = quite long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC processing = completes... I only meant omitting the "unless the LLC makes an objection =E2=80=A6" = not the substantive text. Jay >=20 > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:23 AM Jay Daley > wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: >>=20 >> On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>>> On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>>> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that = policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of = publication of an RFC. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> WFM. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Peter >>>>>>=20 >>>>> I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other = emails that have occurred since this thread started. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, = does not necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding = or the tasking in place to make such things happen. The period of time = between the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document = through the process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to = figure out how to do what the document is requesting/directing. >>>>>=20 >>>>> At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed = by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from = the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the = RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat = similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent = submissions. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with = early implementation - how are those differentiated during the = evaluation process? >>>>=20 >>>> I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon = approval by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by = the RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until = processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. >>>>=20 >>> "may" not "can" I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an = objection due to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" >>=20 >> Seems reasonable, thanks. >=20 > I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must = implement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in = reality it needs to plan and schedule and prioritise with the rest of = its work, and also consider any extra resourcing it may need to as the = LLC for. >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_38BD860E-2E05-42AF-AC8F-910FDED34346 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 11/11/2021, at 12:50 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:

Well, I do think we need *some* text because the = RPC backlog can be quite long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC = processing completes...

I only meant omitting the "unless the LLC makes an = objection =E2=80=A6" not the substantive text.

Jay


On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:23 AM Jay = Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:


On = 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On 11/9/21 5:36 = PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote:
On 11/9/21 = 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, = Eliot Lear wrote:

What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying = that policies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing = of publication of an RFC.

WFM.

Peter

I originally agreed with this, but I'm = rethinking it given other emails that have occurred since this thread = started.

Basically, approval by the RSAB = for publication of the document, does not necessarily mean that the = LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the tasking in place to make such = things happen.  The period of time between the RSAB approval, and = the RPC getting the final document through the process provides some = breathing room for the LLC et al to figure out how to do what the = document is requesting/directing.

At the = very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by a request = for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from the LLC = before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG can = obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat similar = to the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions.

Also, there are documents that won't = require/can't be done with early implementation - how are those = differentiated during the evaluation process?

I see your points. We can change = "policies take effect upon approval by the RSAB" to "policies *can* take = effect upon approval by the RSAB". Clearly some policies won't actually = take effect until processes, practices, and tools have been adjust to = make it so.

"may" not = "can"  I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due to = the need to resolve resource or contract issues"

Seems = reasonable, thanks.

I would prefer omitting that as it = makes it sound as if the RPC must implement every new RFC immediately = unless the LLC objects, when in reality it needs to plan and schedule = and prioritise with the rest of its work, and also consider any extra = resourcing it may need to as the LLC for.

Jay


Peter

-- 
Rfced-future = mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

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Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:00:48 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:00:45 +1100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> References: <50897D59-8C2A-4D1B-B239-3689E34C5C7A@ietf.org> <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> To: Joel Halpern Direct X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:00:56 -0000 I'm confused by your 'go, do better' characterisation - I was addressing = Brian's comment about revising the relevant RFC. > On 10 Nov 2021, at 10:59 pm, Joel Halpern Direct = wrote: >=20 > As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the = SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG. And the result would be = policy. But "go, do better" is NOT policy. It's not even good = management. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community >>> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >>> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >>> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >>> is policy.) >>>=20 >>> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >>>=20 >>> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? >> Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to = oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out of = the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, = which implies RSWG involvement. >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:08:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135003A0E90 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:08:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DcJ3GARWSJTL for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E11B33A0EA0 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AAC8Lr92670841 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:08:22 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636546102; bh=3YmVy3w2uWhEdCtCPZ0YLOlaXWMmZmDAwdmYFTXi5ww=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=SicabhMbV5FgGEMk9Id5Wi4TenQtugmUoa6k1TlXz7U/Ejfqbc4SQ/JFBCC60kz55 kLISRu59tE7cIBAVAMlrBmLppqCPyE9wnlTV58AhcmdxlI/a2NFPJrdQmFBR+Oxuir /6AmU3yxKC5nARjqDNfPyPwZM0hBCjX1BvE0whZU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:08:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , Joel Halpern Direct Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------wW1lsK0EYkPllap7GBpQBrud" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:08:34 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------wW1lsK0EYkPllap7GBpQBrud Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------poXjhvpQOXG546y2jyqmb62a"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham , Joel Halpern Direct Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: 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<08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <0bd237f0-822f-e3c1-fe84-6bfa23d9ae56@gmail.com> <9d9ee361-f814-28e2-fc1d-894a15e6db7c@lear.ch> <1c4cd66d-18a5-4b99-a4d2-a32840224351@mozilla.com> <0ec13185-a2a4-ec49-eb15-19d58e62fbbf@nthpermutation.com> <9af105f4-6da5-ef19-77ec-a2fea1bf3b97@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:11:12 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000062923e05d06e2144" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 process for RSWG? WAS Re: iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:12:12 -0000 --00000000000062923e05d06e2144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 3:59 AM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 11/11/2021, at 12:50 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Well, I do think we need *some* text because the RPC backlog can be quite > long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC processing completes... > > > I only meant omitting the "unless the LLC makes an objection =E2=80=A6" n= ot the > substantive text. > SGTM -Ekr > Jay > > > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:23 AM Jay Daley wrote: > >> >> >> On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote= : >> >> On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> >> What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that policies >> take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of publication = of >> an RFC. >> >> >> WFM. >> >> Peter >> >> I originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails >> that have occurred since this thread started. >> >> Basically, approval by the RSAB for publication of the document, does no= t >> necessarily mean that the LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the >> tasking in place to make such things happen. The period of time between >> the RSAB approval, and the RPC getting the final document through the >> process provides some breathing room for the LLC et al to figure out how= to >> do what the document is requesting/directing. >> >> At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB approval be followed by a >> request for a no-objection ruling on the early implementation from the L= LC >> before any work begins just because neither the RSAB nor the RSWG can >> obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being somewhat similar = to >> the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissions. >> >> Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be done with early >> implementation - how are those differentiated during the evaluation proc= ess? >> >> >> I see your points. We can change "policies take effect upon approval by >> the RSAB" to "policies *can* take effect upon approval by the RSAB". >> Clearly some policies won't actually take effect until processes, >> practices, and tools have been adjust to make it so. >> >> "may" not "can" I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection >> due to the need to resolve resource or contract issues" >> >> >> Seems reasonable, thanks. >> >> >> I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must >> implement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in real= ity >> it needs to plan and schedule and prioritise with the rest of its work, = and >> also consider any extra resourcing it may need to as the LLC for. >> >> Jay >> >> >> Peter >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >> >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > --00000000000062923e05d06e2144 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 3:59 AM Jay D= aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:



Well, I do think we need *some* text because the RPC backlog = can be quite long and if nothing can ever happen until RFC processing compl= etes...

I only meant omitti= ng the "unless the LLC makes an objection =E2=80=A6" not the subs= tantive text.

SGTM
<= div>
-Ekr


=
Jay


On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:= 23 AM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:


On 10/11/2021, at 1:38 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:
On 11/9/21 5:36 PM, M= ichael StJohns wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/9/21 5:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
On 11/9/2021 7:04 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/6/21 2:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

What I am hearing is that we should add a sentence saying that po= licies take upon approval by the RSAB, regardless of the timing of publicat= ion of an RFC.

WFM.

Peter

I = originally agreed with this, but I'm rethinking it given other emails t= hat have occurred since this thread started.

Basically, approval by = the RSAB for publication of the document, does not necessarily mean that th= e LLC/RPC/RSCE has either the funding or the tasking in place to make such = things happen.=C2=A0 The period of time between the RSAB approval, and the = RPC getting the final document through the process provides some breathing = room for the LLC et al to figure out how to do what the document is request= ing/directing.

At the very least, I'd suggest that the RSAB appr= oval be followed by a request for a no-objection ruling on the early implem= entation from the LLC before any work begins just because neither the RSAB = nor the RSWG can obligate funding or even tasking. Think of it as being som= ewhat similar to the conflict review the IESG does for independent submissi= ons.

Also, there are documents that won't require/can't be d= one with early implementation - how are those differentiated during the eva= luation process?

I see your points. We can change "= ;policies take effect upon approval by the RSAB" to "policies *ca= n* take effect upon approval by the RSAB". Clearly some policies won&#= 39;t actually take effect until processes, practices, and tools have been a= djust to make it so.

"may" not "can"= ;=C2=A0 I believe, and add "unless the LLC makes an objection due to t= he need to resolve resource or contract issues"

Seems reasona= ble, thanks.

I would prefer omitting that as it makes it sound as if the RPC must imp= lement every new RFC immediately unless the LLC objects, when in reality it= needs to plan and schedule and prioritise with the rest of its work, and a= lso consider any extra resourcing it may need to as the LLC for.
=
Jay


Peter

--=C2=A0
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org=
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000062923e05d06e2144-- From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:12:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445E33A0EA2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aCOyOVkGU8vb for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97AC03A0FAF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq3d51fwCz6G8MY; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636546345; bh=NgU2vDnsBnJtSowOMI8ph2QRGIvRfhKvtC2SG+8xF4U=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=gWkzdr6fDyatk2Bo5F+LMoN4zgrmki7kdR6P5RMCWJISvUX8su3m+C6fCe7HQEmZb rSX26nljg44AyveQb37Ip77qQgZL3F5cE0ZkWjj+1h30ve7rJl4LpNCjTAy716E+vX UTT8pzGisiZGKA/OpDlpDDRZGxuANC60vNG9zkfk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq3d45Gw8z6G7vV; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:12:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:12:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: Joel Halpern Direct In-Reply-To: <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:12:36 -0000 Brian's text was "the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs requires a major update". That is not a policy. It is a statement that the RSWG wants to work on something. It is roughly as meaningful as the classic instruction "fetch a rock"... "no, not that rock, a better rock." Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 7:00 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I'm confused by your 'go, do better' characterisation - I was addressing Brian's comment about revising the relevant RFC. > > >> On 10 Nov 2021, at 10:59 pm, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >> >> As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG. And the result would be policy. But "go, do better" is NOT policy. It's not even good management. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> >>>> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community >>>> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >>>> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >>>> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >>>> is policy.) >>>> >>>> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >>>> >>>> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? >>> Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out of the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, which implies RSWG involvement. >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:14:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2FC3A0EAC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=HFMSY0wz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=A4LDbfu4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fpzCcuCJyIPX for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0C193A0EA2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5F25C0217; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:14:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=U rvIdz8qgEQ4TsT7EWq5q8Huui/ASldfvPpc7EObvpM=; b=HFMSY0wzjAne35MZp RaFpcY5QLrxjpYqKD+cZowEjsW2GE2/g/4sjUiiwSP469jX4bs9UB7Owp+wXMMnu mSTzuhL/a+Z5Pp+m2qucPxShnz0/TRiYmvSKlzadZqyp1RUMQQpa68A9lyM8dYh7 s2EkzqOfIa+zl20mJncGjvo/u1AGrE5qxNAmvu+x/cGrKX+z2Fi6n/pAXBDqaJj4 oyfEPuNyDxiVdVS3Y+TvTF6lbtrI9bNnnUc36/LxrDmL1PqxlaIwLu324n68Vs2E A1n7G94hvNwzhqoGoS90u/2SzeWS3w3/Tt+Du9LqFX/oL9Uh2PUGfzUBpYQi6Gae d2Mgw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=UrvIdz8qgEQ4TsT7EWq5q8Huui/ASldfvPpc7EObv pM=; b=A4LDbfu4l+0HSqt0EczlAHcMZDSSPbz4f5hQ6WK9W0iS6dif8I2MUVX1X qPIMmAerePQ23V0krp12F5a2IKw3TOu+Lg9+Ds+lSz8q9nDlUU1fxMEx6F0CRO1S hZDw6milyQI1sdlJI522eUALOcpFi57vl8OEhLKPIOkBB/mjy++gWHvQmZ/8RwXP cDJwXD7+V8CVrifRJPsj97R9zAPjXgPahXQc2lD/9Zya5QL1aGLlWpFqJn5jZJ5s marYILb23VhI2jMgxGQzCGyU3AP55/S5G9cKrm3lpi8YBWXN41JJUf9W++umZqgN WddG+lFa7MIdaKojEd1andy5S+fRQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudejgdefjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:14:07 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:14:05 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> To: Joel Halpern Direct X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:14:15 -0000 Let me be more direct. If determines that an update of 7996 is desirable, where is = that work done, and who does it? What stream is it published upon? > On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:12 pm, Joel Halpern Direct = wrote: >=20 > Brian's text was "the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs > requires a major update". That is not a policy. It is a statement = that the RSWG wants to work on something. It is roughly as meaningful = as the classic instruction "fetch a rock"... "no, not that rock, a = better rock." >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/10/2021 7:00 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> I'm confused by your 'go, do better' characterisation - I was = addressing Brian's comment about revising the relevant RFC. >>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 10:59 pm, Joel Halpern Direct = wrote: >>>=20 >>> As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the = SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG. And the result would be = policy. But "go, do better" is NOT policy. It's not even good = management. >>>=20 >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>>=20 >>> On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG = community >>>>> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >>>>> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >>>>> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >>>>> is policy.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? >>>> Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue = to oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out = of the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, = which implies RSWG involvement. >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:14:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0403A0EBF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o0PmQaUgEGeh for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C49CE3A0EB5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq3gw0G34z6G9KW; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636546492; bh=M1UUSl3w0UPecNiV7nKs91/efOCQfntjxth+ZhvRtjA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=l7GjlEvFoE1rem8teJ9dnL5jVauW2OcUOT6Qn9lVtqkcaLDdJcJkd1P+DF7g4lsS6 U/sz/cSg7kWfoE5ZFpPtDVYK1SyQuVBa/RLGpxAomegMpIl98N1EtAIaLtD1saPF7c AK7mtXTjmUfiG7DnoMzU5xQEMSUXF8KaTWYZtOX4= X-Quarantine-ID: <2_8BW1_Vc_tH> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq3gv3TM7z6G7vV; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:14:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <862fe91d-0781-9fe8-d08e-c82f1e2b8f8d@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:14:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:14:57 -0000 I have no desire to legislate what would constitute a policy. But it clearly would have more content than the example. Given the observed community sensitivity on the example Brian chose, I would expect something fairly specific. But whatever the RSWG chose and the RSAB approved, I would expect it to be clear enough to at least be actionable such that one could understand fairly if the RPC had complied with it. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 7:08 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Isn't this a bit of art, balancing between management and > micromanagement?  I could easily imagine the RSWG specifying principles > that enable good decision making regarding image format, without ever > mentioning SVG, and I could imagine a healthy discussion in which both > the RPC and the RSCE contribute. > > I could equally imagine a bit more detailed specification, in which we > say, here are the specific parameters that we specify for SVG > construction, and maybe even sample code! > > > On 10.11.21 13:00, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> I'm confused by your 'go, do better' characterisation - I was >> addressing Brian's comment about revising the relevant RFC. >> >> >>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 10:59 pm, Joel Halpern Direct >>> wrote: >>> >>> As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the >>> SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG.  And the result would be >>> policy.  But "go, do better" is NOT policy.  It's not even good >>> management. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community >>>>> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >>>>> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >>>>> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >>>>> is policy.) >>>>> >>>>> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >>>>> >>>>> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? >>>> Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to >>>> oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out >>>> of the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial >>>> stream, which implies RSWG involvement. >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >> -- >> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >> From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:19:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89AB13A0EB5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:18:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19civVmRn7Rz for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C20B13A0EAC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq3mc4C1Gz6G9M9; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:18:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636546736; bh=jY0zXF1aMfeHnJSK6HM0W7eTi3a+86EADVl2yDAmKVI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=HDZq1n+UOI9XzB/8ML0Ds8j7B++9hwBImEMc9NCPRMQ+iu2rtFHT59L8ZF146kvNH v+CntxX8jz/tadTvcCu9yOwcgE94cjhQLcprwFEMMUj6vrdGFq2wtxv+yKHlIoeexN t8W/4864HWFM1m5toqloFhHuCJlHadWiQUMH2Jnw= X-Quarantine-ID: <3VMKgG6APrHN> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq3mc0Zhgz6G9Kd; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:18:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:18:59 -0000 I can see several paths. I am not mandating one. Here are two, of the many possibiities. The RSWG could write a policy that directs the properties an SVG profile replacement should have, and directs the RPC to pick something that matches it. While sensible, given the community sensitivity, I would be very surprised if the RWG were willing to do that. The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during development, I could see that working. Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, RFCs. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 7:14 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Let me be more direct. > > If determines that an update of 7996 is desirable, where is that work done, and who does it? What stream is it published upon? > > >> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:12 pm, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >> >> Brian's text was "the definition of acceptable SVG in RFCs >> requires a major update". That is not a policy. It is a statement that the RSWG wants to work on something. It is roughly as meaningful as the classic instruction "fetch a rock"... "no, not that rock, a better rock." >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/10/2021 7:00 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> I'm confused by your 'go, do better' characterisation - I was addressing Brian's comment about revising the relevant RFC. >>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 10:59 pm, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >>>> >>>> As I said in my reply to Brian, working out a new policy on what the SVG should be does seem to fall to the RSWG. And the result would be policy. But "go, do better" is NOT policy. It's not even good management. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 11/10/2021 1:05 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 1:42 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems clear to me that this is a matter where the RSWG community >>>>>> might have a strong opinion, which they might construe as policy. >>>>>> However, doing anything about it, such as revising the relevant >>>>>> RFC, is not RSWG business. (I assume that nobody thinks RFC 7996 >>>>>> is policy.) >>>>>> >>>>>> How do you think the RSWG should convey this opinion? >>>>>> >>>>>> Alternatively, do you think that RFC 7996 is policy? >>>>> Where would you have that work done, then? Would the IAB continue to oversee it? I had thought the whole idea here was to get the IAB out of the loop... and that such documents would be on the Editorial stream, which implies RSWG involvement. >>>>> -- >>>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:39:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D424E3A0ED6 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:39:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=V9Hesdqt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=dzxTDLF5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kgbsbDlJzgtZ for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D77173A0EDB for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFCC5C0183; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=g eHFt15Lh1Q5czCGPiN5vvyY77IIbvQLFVddXCUxh4Q=; b=V9Hesdqt0PElKCriN i+EDfRA8SSvOlX1EIU9nf+Tn8UXl8CeKt7yr9es0LGgc60B4FXg24AADpjhT8j4K AdHvvZ5SSNgtRAsHk5gp4/OSMSL12ZbKzB58+4EmPoZeDNJBIFG9mkHPpe3yVik0 6xvnZvgwvP+Dl+xOAAw4GeS+C7tMYB1Vg0U7x9kLbtTtMx8Tt8yik/hDdpkYrsBW OeLPMg/XuBEg76sm2KxdSDzjQwMSTLwJHU5XFAB1XkoUDxU72TYB/at23MVtdd0k hjW4lkwGfA2y5d4sElxMS5bjbM+GRLtAXoo36OYGsFB5SDCNPacmRtRZ+Q6uw98+ jG6GA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=geHFt15Lh1Q5czCGPiN5vvyY77IIbvQLFVddXCUxh 4Q=; b=dzxTDLF5hnNkRV+oG1dYom0aX9h9oH+8IMdXED7MxZbKFgKtG2fZLD1gf BiS2Dzo6JdMAVWLUhtEtfvyCzmi1flgqTxTOwqJ3PnjRwx27tvZTXRoCXcV83B+E MPPrrEntGK9uh5QEgk1Hg7UlqfQUyzLGeitdDzyR9vw5+d1ZMqO/N1Yyp8NJGeO1 R3P76ClfdPRqj5UijrfGMn7oVqWLRaP7C9RkbTat+kai3HqeKw0780pIcjhvcHrG DHwYh3QOgFWoWlQx1Jy4xZLFsHPr3va1EukWg1lqMRQF1CY0T6gbPpx/bAZfDdn9 D3i8LfD9H3w723wXA3D7bWarPPsdQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudejgdegvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutd ehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueetteenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtse hmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:44 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:39:41 +1100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2A4B74AC-33BA-4593-8B62-E15B962CDB1A@kuehlewind.net> <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:39:52 -0000 Joel, > On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the = design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams = should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during = development, I could see that working. This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. > Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, RFCs. Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could = result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes 79996? -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:54:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453073A0F01 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:54:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKyvZ_1daIvK for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B875A3A08B0 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq4Yq3rtMz6G9MW; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:54:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636548879; bh=40//ZLFIODbsHYh7RjH8jMGRDVBIGM+nPDE2M4hDS60=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=QYjwLTTW/3yhBePbZoWGLIb70H8yAdvga0ezCGJevxukV5MXA9MW8MCqLykuMJR+Q /Bnl9zW4nRzpja3IdbklHGAUnsoDHB9wiMzOyPhETbkGwLvUs/ms0c0ZqNpxQPryZG XQU1p3n6MB9K6viK9Zg2AMjvsCvTqJ1feKYUbfug= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq4Yq0JVrz6G9MN; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:54:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:54:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:54:44 -0000 Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the RSWG, through the process we have defined. Whether there is also some other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Joel, > >> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during development, I could see that working. > > This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. > >> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, RFCs. > > Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes 79996? > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 04:58:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B877B3A0EFD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TstMOLP6OWlR for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6E0C3A0EFF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9574B4B0DEA5; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ggF8VedpFB1; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDEBE4196FCD; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:58:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:58:29 +1300 Cc: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <82a8b930-2203-8a97-2b82-5ee8ab935140@gmail.com> <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:58:41 -0000 > On 11/11/2021, at 1:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small = non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. >=20 > It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the = RSWG, through the process we have defined. Whether there is also some = other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. Does the draft need to explicitly empower the RSWG to create design = teams? Jay >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Joel, >>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >>>=20 >>> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the = design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams = should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during = development, I could see that working. >> This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. >>> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, = RFCs. >> Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could = result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes 79996? >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 10 05:04:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9666A3A0EFB for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:04:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QMu2CS7eb1k3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BFE83A0F35 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hq4nP1dr8z6G9MQ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:04:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636549481; bh=vX48L241qBkv9O8QzzzF9s5wMj8SsfIm1g+WoS25mDg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=V0MEiZC+tFD3XIrTMWb7Waum6d6jcvLtkFxAiwdQ1Eee4jPTHjCvoFN1CUnMLZsHu 9c9ACI6FmAX3neTDs82jpAz/QeddFiAy2waiXHU9k4ZgSA6M9ec0Sz04s3TUnuORL+ lcQRRqnN1frMS1FI2LsN9QWGtFsJk8Ske8bNRNV8= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hq4nN4K9tz6G9KW; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:04:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:04:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley Cc: Mark Nottingham , rfced-future@iab.org References: <4942ef86-8c86-26a1-52a0-2418cf0690dd@gmail.com> <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:04:47 -0000 Since a design team has no authority except to report to the RSWG, I do not see why we need to call that out. I would hope and expect reasonable use of approaches to solve problems, as long as they result in decisions by the RSWG on the RSWG email list. In particular, since we have no means or desire to prevent people from talking to each other, design teams can and will happen. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 7:58 AM, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 11/11/2021, at 1:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. >> >> It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the RSWG, through the process we have defined. Whether there is also some other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. > > Does the draft need to explicitly empower the RSWG to create design teams? > > Jay > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> Joel, >>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> >>>> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during development, I could see that working. >>> This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. >>>> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, RFCs. >>> Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes 79996? >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > From nobody Wed Nov 10 06:55:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0BC23A109E for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jlrQN0pCE1jc for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB1443A1078 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id v23so3048754iom.12 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CQgb1/1yVf2auQ1FKA4FzEVoaj517mQPifQcgfZAEVs=; b=N04dQ8bo0EGigOeOxgmmBbNPMocOcDrZH71ljN1OxDvygqoDPTNGWi1IMgjkMfaepA HV2czXK5KjDleYVANbJqDdbs4AuKJoANU7Q+IxEOZ6dJtcCt1/Av0yXPKq0craerQ9Mx HCaQcmzfHBP5WhMDjPVj1aBXsEl+hljY8dRTo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CQgb1/1yVf2auQ1FKA4FzEVoaj517mQPifQcgfZAEVs=; b=ypu2SizELXmx0pwdMrH3LznNySgyh5g3rdOvuRajgiOfkbaND13/QWiZMNtOh5Bb6y Doc5dxfeOBUHvNOb85imyCVfVlpYv2lobj/As851rm70mdfaTidVTYIgojPZ2tMLLi8J Czdi2XNGIQ73WkGgrCnse8UajEvIMBLXIyVz+/ZG60SFfzvdbDiZ/0lASfyCtPrvOzbq DllFA/s791tNP4M4xNPQzLo7CW5J/FdHnUCJthNOGbW4uFhMdu2o2TQetcBkZajHhlfZ CnbVeQH8iV69ZL3Nq6EbJ3PMO8AS0ComCdfx8PUGYchcb1KcQUBP2iQP0v9HkuWHPJhP B0aA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HYPZM+IoKOh5xaNPfzOKhYv7/HXRXfagvvV6meaQpZu7GH/PS iaw9qZWJ9X58EOunP9Cc5kI+4fkEoT2LHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyz0AbTrE6Fs+f/6NXY6w6ey9nHn+NejMpQjbNSkQS7U7WoLdsvCq1mY4ZKdVW3+ABEwsbgPg== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:440f:: with SMTP id r15mr43884ioa.128.1636556102142; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l4sm58239ilv.46.2021.11.10.06.55.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:55:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:55:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:55:09 -0000 On 11/10/21 4:46 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > On 10.11.21 07:00, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Just to make sure -- >> >>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 2:05 pm, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>> >>> Section 5 does state that the primary responsibilities of the RSCE >>> include: >>> >>>    *  Identify problems with the RFC publication process and >>>       opportunities for improvement >> I hope that we can agree that this is not the exclusive purview of the >> RSCE. > > I really couldn't imagine otherwise. Mark, do you think text is needed on this point? Peter From nobody Wed Nov 10 06:58:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C5C3A1078 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:58:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=XaK62j7z; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=k14Wnd0a Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IXvSd_hOArQD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5BA83A10BF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D425C0200; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:58:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:58:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=u sgkplzQXe+Y1HTu00B7Jm0hoYb8VzoNapCxb1DXu+c=; b=XaK62j7zppE6XppYq dyDSDeCDauKQTPS8MkOqmtMca4WlbF2V11X9ihZ2AFJulttLW3dpwJIOotGJa2fy EWDJ5uUV+F5bziKn9T4y5Bw26m/sAtOq9DiCIbSbA42482Qn8XOgHYXz0cy5Rd+X 0c9gc/rKAV9gyytUpprYF3UM5+56HvALwqFR067DQrAoNGEHZ+NN1wP06HNDTCc9 Q0dJpJ5e/Ztzvm2rJ9lsyXqaFxFYJpFvsFJmfnyu345+LGlerzOLuHxb1Akxbnf1 o6vAlrxpNzPMSXhs40lo4gTpbR+na0ZleBb8BBz2uIS0eVL8USNbmvxqqpP/+VhB OFGwg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=usgkplzQXe+Y1HTu00B7Jm0hoYb8VzoNapCxb1DXu +c=; b=k14Wnd0aKziVfIofq/c2R7vX+3u6wpFeA/5ODEZ2GlLHWLNuTLvFFcvRm vD7sqbcDGJAYSh5yKhOcdsjROF+jKaplEIhZuUEXB/mxBoxovkFZl/wlUVRPtL6A /Msy3Ki9Rszj1W1rSfGUBAGavCgkNcHZcfuX23ycmwC6qyiCkWruXbnCyyc/0iH1 UgN0Q8IRs87+td6ysrRUeyuyq8GexXsGP6VSfsojty6p03KJiqV7oTXv++IoSPId Y2rKzm0k3DWkrunOoK47rZgUZmZP+7jTjA+VOCov3M2v7xN9HsdSCdMouh3gHx+Y 23llkq+5daDdh86e8YI49VCCExkww== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudejgdeilecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:58:01 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:57:58 +1100 Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:58:09 -0000 I've seen people interpret the word 'responsibility' in different ways = which might need clarification. So, perhaps. > On 11 Nov 2021, at 1:55 am, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/10/21 4:46 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> On 10.11.21 07:00, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> Just to make sure -- >>>=20 >>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 2:05 pm, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Section 5 does state that the primary responsibilities of the RSCE = include: >>>>=20 >>>> * Identify problems with the RFC publication process and >>>> opportunities for improvement >>> I hope that we can agree that this is not the exclusive purview of = the RSCE. >> I really couldn't imagine otherwise. >=20 > Mark, do you think text is needed on this point? >=20 > Peter -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:04:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7763A0D39 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VKBGnJrfAEAf for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 148033A1084 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id w15so2825304ill.2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IJoW7eYYgJ4w+ciKIVu7FLLrg6JT3/9vLlVqHB7w3L4=; b=WykTZdXUL58CNqMReeNYRE4vCOjpDDW4VkyhEQ3wdK9LgoO+tBdx1tLT/+eUA0k9uU s7uhjBh309gjoC+QDpME+7vbIsu4KdMXfXxlnFqTPTfYP7lyFy+iDdqeFdZ2dLkB4Cfz QhuBYbj/R27DYkUSw/MEwVP17uFecvQXKth9Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IJoW7eYYgJ4w+ciKIVu7FLLrg6JT3/9vLlVqHB7w3L4=; b=tjNoSs5aJ5HjgHQfad01wbahtQLJ3tmJD2rgjmBqOZRPqvP6cV897uzkDZ8Kpq91tk OwXNs7bivNlxvT/Fyk7peCkMY3OPXbm7L4BiYHBhK/ztMO8fAmyLe23RPhSO41tuEEun IgvgwgbS5Ao7j4u1/JN9qwW1CXsRlavHB6108dy9oYlQn+qX4GGrCpgQNfmD3NADspLV YCSIrj6hVGmOntcesbfImBCBEYURqTXALtfstmDFzZJfTolxYBanBfkEKEvN8D0SRpYR M6uNHjiEQHpsFXQBn3SCL3sdNyBTNG/T8nb59rdS75hCRWwZhTVP8THb8JeOe3YAvzDz KDjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PR6O8Nt8u/GT++m/XCrrFe45Q/GBZZuNHHZqKJ+ZL5jhfBYOc PUlh0YnAhwdToTd1BZtL4y6Zxw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynKcFC8xAxdmdUlqMGpnL06QeBooUubd/BeIoPwLXKoubL4vYleoEUtIj4+7DMscSDFP3qFw== X-Received: by 2002:a92:ca48:: with SMTP id q8mr384725ilo.173.1636556677001; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm73134ilu.64.2021.11.10.07.04.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:04:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <819e4786-cfdb-7d0e-31fe-918bf86e8dff@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:04:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] A short review (Re: **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:04:45 -0000 OK, I'll attempt clarifications in -06 and share text on list beforehand. On 11/10/21 7:57 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I've seen people interpret the word 'responsibility' in different ways which might need clarification. So, perhaps. > > >> On 11 Nov 2021, at 1:55 am, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 11/10/21 4:46 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> On 10.11.21 07:00, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> Just to make sure -- >>>> >>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 2:05 pm, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Section 5 does state that the primary responsibilities of the RSCE include: >>>>> >>>>> * Identify problems with the RFC publication process and >>>>> opportunities for improvement >>>> I hope that we can agree that this is not the exclusive purview of the RSCE. >>> I really couldn't imagine otherwise. >> >> Mark, do you think text is needed on this point? >> >> Peter > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:19:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7F03A10FD for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:19:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LE_qTlhw_pVo for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6AD93A1168 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id y16so3167242ioc.8 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gE8FVH6LecPd8KJJsUqxny2N6mGFq/A8W2Eg1BuKbC8=; b=aL+Mp55AAPTHZR0DESGoJkcqwZmQlTsGkEucUdLaZokMqjkfsni/yR0/LmH32DQh2n UPITUYax4XjEK0LmEv0Ofo2qxfK6N12ajwHVDU5E37AI3GdiW7ng8koTyxxJz5V+bfRZ /jFX+3tmE9IfS+K5Mdyezaj/gwbDitzRQ2wfM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gE8FVH6LecPd8KJJsUqxny2N6mGFq/A8W2Eg1BuKbC8=; b=yZdzHmp79ElokR6S0XKAQMPOOUTxqL87cCNKRG0+UJ8EKhQyUlAF8160Ja+7w14fhL O0CPJ71hdgdLpqrpcelOUpnDbTDBcu3JV1gfVPe+bbOI7+4jDZko4w5FtU3jxwIkuGdl LBET93uyWzkKOtu1806jSKzjOpuh3su2SWx5aztxeaX/zC+boLa+fn+eGetqXEs5lpoG pAZBcOt9zVggRmkXOhR6flouPrEjqawSRIsDZ7i5IhZUKuxtq2+Kv9lIfKOWLhMN8KVb /MdHBsSjZDGtvUa6l/hgwQYJlWZkGg+uIG5wCrmVP+0zYYPFdBMeDdKOuK/7kCg+g7ul vK7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312m8b+FYVbH3/s/in4gCl6rK+mrEkjUpWU6UCFrIR/h+3pB8pN 2mKKigwJ51nd2KG3AgdlIZR2gA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBjVrW29yE7N5A9ZdZ1ngp8rFB45AIRfQjtYMefY5ENo6844T0YfHxV0za7u2R5ZooN7WFoA== X-Received: by 2002:a02:954d:: with SMTP id y71mr328926jah.83.1636557484816; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t6sm64441iov.39.2021.11.10.07.18.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:18:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:18:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:19:02 -0000 On 11/9/21 8:58 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, at 10:15, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about appeals. >>> >>> For #93, I suggest: >>> >>> OLD: >>> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general policy. >>> NEW: >>> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a more general policy. >> >> I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably people >> or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks, >> document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, etc.). > > The problem I'm trying to address here is that there is no responsibility in the original text. Who owns the decision? Ah, I see. We could say (tweaking some text in the rest of the paragraph): * If the disagreement raises a new issue that is not covered by an existing policy or that cannot be resolved through consultation between the RPC and other relevant individuals and bodies (as described above), the RSAB should bring to the RSWG in order to formulate a new policy. However, if needed, in the interest of time the RSAB is responsible for resolving the disagreement before a new policy is defined. > Sure, in most cases, things will just be resolved to mutual satisfaction. But someone has to be responsible if the decision is wrong. > >> The bit about referring the matter to the RSWG seems mostly fine, >> although I'm not 100% sure about the order of events > > I don't care about order of events. > > Maybe instead: > >> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements. Disagreements about the interpretation of policies shall be referred to the RSWG so they might consider proposals for policies that address shortcomings. I think the foregoing text says that, although perhaps in a roundabout way? Peter From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:23:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0373A104B for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:23:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e24-HstrK1ta for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 764D83A0D7B for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mkpRl-00013F-Ax; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:23:33 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:23:32 +0100 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636557817;119c046c; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mkpRl-00013F-Ax Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:23:42 -0000 Hi all, I don=E2=80=99t have strong opinion here but given #120 doesn=E2=80=99t = provided any context, I would like to provide this context here before = we close the issue. The only text we currently have in the draft about performance targets = it this: "Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over negotiating performance = targets for the RPC and also has responsibility for ensuring that those = targets are adhered to.=E2=80=9D We don=E2=80=99t say anything about where this performance targets come = from and what they should be about. I believe we had a lengthy = discussion that we don=E2=80=99t want to micro-manage here and I even = made a strong point about this, but I think we could at the end just say = a tiny little more. So I proposed to add this sentence: "Performance targets are set based on the current publication load as = well as additional efforts as requested in policies by the RSWG and may = be consulted with the community.=E2=80=9D Other proposals are of course welcome. Not adding anything is also okay = for me. Mirja From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:31:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CFE3A104B for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfrybVe4CzIo for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5591C3A0DC1 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F5D4B185B5; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BjT5vvPQvAlR; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A31784196FC2; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:31:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 04:31:07 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:31:18 -0000 > On 11/11/2021, at 4:23 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t have strong opinion here but given #120 doesn=E2=80=99t = provided any context, I would like to provide this context here before = we close the issue. >=20 > The only text we currently have in the draft about performance targets = it this: >=20 > "Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over negotiating performance = targets for the RPC and also has responsibility for ensuring that those = targets are adhered to.=E2=80=9D >=20 > We don=E2=80=99t say anything about where this performance targets = come from and what they should be about. I believe we had a lengthy = discussion that we don=E2=80=99t want to micro-manage here and I even = made a strong point about this, but I think we could at the end just say = a tiny little more. So I proposed to add this sentence: >=20 > "Performance targets are set based on the current publication load as = well as additional efforts as requested in policies by the RSWG and may = be consulted with the community.=E2=80=9D I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance = targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going to = change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new = model. For example, "performance" is likely to mean more than "speed of = processing", including: - correctness - cost per page - author satisfaction and so on. Jay >=20 > Other proposals are of course welcome. Not adding anything is also = okay for me. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:35:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4593A10EB for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:35:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=V5WJNlFG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=kEYZT6GX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Shdpkfq-HjOg for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48DEA3A0DDC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FB95C0238 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:35:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=QD8qS 6R9Puc4yb4XHNxNpGqCwqcEotLxb0ARZB1RpgU=; b=V5WJNlFG7s6rp2EK8TJrj GMgOLPJI0JmoMxc3u3+dMMsYV8aeQ6/u9I9DDjwOMntoM99CHTWQTbN8VeRiSoJM Z1eIZZD4il5Ot12pdPB84z03GYWDNv4tWQ//zIlhb3i4yRN8rzVCNqrfClgjM2PG nEv4dT0AW2qe8TPHIxtVNdX43PQclz14+EnOKNrRBpAA8cl+B993FL8Jyl1+GJz9 6e0MGUVTMrNYAHxqB/iRaV3uswBnNvHN0sps37vmhkYP4tKzDNF1ia1GSma3z3Sb Mi70XOREPKA4Cv6vc7J7xwRRNEyzrlPGeYFKoX+eGxp3kYy2PJ1z/1NyfwObeGjB Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=QD8qS6R9Puc4yb4XHNxNpGqCwqcEotLxb0ARZB1Rp gU=; b=kEYZT6GX12xL5e6CIGgYxk2q07bdg4bG9ZBbGb/rCMpl/WJIwV5gN0JUD tet54Hvx3U/NNfC5KpgD98PNskdF3NXQfyTGKedE+Pm3UHglD1x8lUAnDwhu4Oqf F+Slm68UFlrmQPD6D4+i8qE8LmtTFFYaoN42lb4vLQajsDlxKgNvthRCNcDAQrrN Zq1VvBCRlJ1Q6MkJKXnpRhXBrEDLlvzK0Ypj+SBMonX3D62RTmQEzjea5r76zE0S 9/NIAAXikkD7frZsqeYjIfSPaMRmLvrvqNzSTciLMRh/ccn0lvlsd3AdJsrq7Rv4 8BFVM+IOvmJ2HtD3BFPj+kEso3tHw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudejgdejjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqh ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgjeeuudeiffeltdegle ehjedvtedtjeduudehgfegfefgkefgueeiteegffdttdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 49EFC3C0AEC; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:35:07 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 02:34:46 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:35:13 -0000 On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: > I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance=20 > targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going t= o=20 > change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new mod= el. =20 This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC model w= as their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to the ex= tent possible - not add those to the set of things this group needs to c= oncern itself with. From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:36:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A403A10EB for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:36:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83IebNTrMoKx for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 622683A0DE7 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mkpeT-00051n-Mt; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:36:41 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:36:41 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636558606;ef46c6bb; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mkpeT-00051n-Mt Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:36:51 -0000 Okay, thanks for confirming. > On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:34, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: >> I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance=20 >> targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going = to=20 >> change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new = model. =20 >=20 > This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC model = was their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to the = extent possible - not add those to the set of things this group needs to = concern itself with. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:39:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FAB3A10FA for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4jnpbOY-W2c for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0F953A0DE7 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mkpgl-00083U-6T; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:39:03 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:39:02 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636558745;be4bb1b7; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mkpgl-00083U-6T Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:39:10 -0000 Actually, just to warp this up entirely then. So we maybe then even need = to say less and strike the existing sentence about performance targets = as well? The full paragraph is: "The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the = engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over = negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has responsibility = for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The IETF LLC is = empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a committee to complete = these activities.=E2=80=9D > On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:36, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Okay, thanks for confirming. >=20 >> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:34, Martin Thomson wrote: >>=20 >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: >>> I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance=20 >>> targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going = to=20 >>> change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new = model. =20 >>=20 >> This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC = model was their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to = the extent possible - not add those to the set of things this group = needs to concern itself with. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:39:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3F93A0DE7 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uT_6ki8hGUSA for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D14733A10F4 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB754B18607; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8bTIrjtdVnug; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 38B3D4196FC2; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:39:47 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 04:39:42 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:39:54 -0000 > On 11/11/2021, at 4:34 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: >> I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance=20 >> targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going = to=20 >> change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new = model. =20 >=20 > This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC model = was their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to the = extent possible - not add those to the set of things this group needs to = concern itself with. I=E2=80=99m happy for the draft to include a requirement for the LLC to = consult on the performance targets or otherwise ensure community = engagement in their development, though as Brian has pointed out before, = that is the expected standard operating procedure for the LLC. Jay >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:41:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8003A115A for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:41:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v6r6E7_x-cee for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4590A3A11A4 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thread-Topic: Draft minutes Thread-Index: AQHX1kh+AOFurpBpkEqVM3BXjb3hQA== Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:34:48 +0000 Message-ID: <8A7E978B-CF2D-4041-BFC7-55B518F8C06E@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21110701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8A7E978BCF2D4041BFC755B518F8C06Eakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-10_05:2021-11-08, 2021-11-10 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=628 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111100081 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 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wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGL6G8FAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNW PggAtBi5bBwk3HIA/FV+GR/DgXKzqOwZ1owUQG2swVN58gz7GftIzrD04T+Xl5Ik+1EUIVPTIW/V ElxwBpNaEac+CNqZH2wKIdzfz3J2njJFL72mxSdMQeCzpHHZitf53Mhzd5DWBnf7WpzFQX2F7FM4 sDfkDZj9vtZqqtxr+BOqDCccLOry6B4Qf8cmnXMyVhJxPl9FR92UUzh0BPxlpZx49tH6YtbQIBXn ijfI6+bFXUvTyLZvdKyfgnoqpFd3XUfAOpuVyTDpYqFfO3VmXp2X+RlakZs/pV/yDMrFfDV0pyi0 ukid+W3LIiFSBvqaawSu1yH34+iqyI5xIaBv0keJ5g== =xzFO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------i3eGUU02wRAnW8nKOCrm1her-- From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:57:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465A73A1129 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SE9l7dJ3VWi9 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E48713A111C for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mkpyM-00017Y-GN; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:57:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:57:13 +0100 Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636559838;6338b6ee; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mkpyM-00017Y-GN Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:57:22 -0000 See below. > On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:18, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/9/21 8:58 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, at 10:15, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised = about appeals. >>>>=20 >>>> For #93, I suggest: >>>>=20 >>>> OLD: >>>> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be = resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more = general policy. >>>> NEW: >>>> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose = resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to = formulate a more general policy. >>>=20 >>> I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably = people >>> or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks, >>> document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, = etc.). >> The problem I'm trying to address here is that there is no = responsibility in the original text. Who owns the decision? >=20 > Ah, I see. >=20 > We could say (tweaking some text in the rest of the paragraph): >=20 > * If the disagreement raises a new issue that is not covered by an > existing policy or that cannot be resolved through consultation > between the RPC and other relevant individuals and bodies (as > described above), the RSAB should bring to the RSWG in order > to formulate a new policy. However, if needed, in the interest = of > time the RSAB is responsible for resolving the disagreement = before > a new policy is defined. >=20 >> Sure, in most cases, things will just be resolved to mutual = satisfaction. But someone has to be responsible if the decision is = wrong. Actually I also think that someone needs to be clearly responsible to = make decisions. This sentence only takes about the case where there is = an issue that should be brought to the RSWG. However even if an issue is = resolved without the need for a new policy, I think it should be clear = who is making the final decision, how that is document, and who is = respectively responsible if the decision is wrong/gets applied. I = don=E2=80=99t think this is fully covered in this section yet, but maybe = it actually goes beyond Resolution of Disagreements between the Authors = and the RPC which this section talks about=E2=80=A6? Mirja >>> The bit about referring the matter to the RSWG seems mostly fine, >>> although I'm not 100% sure about the order of events >> I don't care about order of events. >> Maybe instead: >>> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions = for disagreements. Disagreements about the interpretation of policies = shall be referred to the RSWG so they might consider proposals for = policies that address shortcomings. >=20 > I think the foregoing text says that, although perhaps in a roundabout = way? >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:58:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A903A0E61 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h9_5fKWQbbos for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F5863A0E4C for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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(PPS) with ESMTPS id 3c8fwpsdyv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:58:29 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1AAFom17004076; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:58:28 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3c81umhb5n-6 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:58:28 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:49:47 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:49:47 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Thanks for today's meeting Thread-Index: AQHX1kmjvGFL1wRaSECTsCl2rHI656v86JgA Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:49:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21110701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-10_05:2021-11-08, 2021-11-10 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=574 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111100082 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: fIUMW9Un9AdhXgEAUqf2AYFTqOPqo98Q X-Proofpoint-GUID: fIUMW9Un9AdhXgEAUqf2AYFTqOPqo98Q X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-10_05,2021-11-08_02,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=521 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111100082 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Thanks for today's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:58:37 -0000 QXMgc2V2ZXJhbCBvdGhlcnMgd2VyZSBzYXlpbmcgYXQgdGhlIGNsb3NlIG9mIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5n LCBhIHZlcnkgYmlnIHRoYW5rLXlvdSB0byB5b3UgYW5kIEJyaWFuIGZvciBndWlkaW5nIHRoaXMg cmF0aGVyIG5vdmVsIHByb2dyYW0gdG8gYSBmYWlybHkgcXVpY2sgY29uY2x1c2lvbiwgd2l0aG91 dCBsb3NpbmcgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9yIHBlcnZlcnRpbmcgSUVURiBwcm9jZXNzZXMuDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 10 07:58:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6003A1143 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wm3gIHR2-j5k for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FAD3A115A for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268DE660264 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:58:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A0V-1dNB5vgA for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:58:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [193.234.219.226]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 813066601FE for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:58:35 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:57:35 +0200 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05 review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:58:43 -0000 For what it is worth, I used the meeting time to do another read of the = document from top to bottom. No major concerns came up for me at least. = (But I am aware of the issue discussions, and see that there are = changes/problems that need to be resolved in them, e.g., clarifying = appeals and timers, etc.) Jari From nobody Wed Nov 10 08:23:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3F03A07BC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GYCXuMUSS0mx for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ABFD3A083D for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AAGNN1j2795238 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:23:23 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636561403; bh=v7DYk1WkP9oah8SgawpvojMcBUxAEEI8QIQZjq40yCo=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=mBSfjlxVJ76QMQ+7lX382mjxRQka/bcQUKovuobc5Rf9e+DoEOqcUxjwmAnz/ZDbd fQAfDPxjqZhI7TB7Vo4pQc2X2oAtq+IqbDuSWdnmtPsDN7BA3QOSXBGbdxpO80MRos 2lsmTSsHhnwLE7sg9T/pMlDoTmtx9HZ6VYPJZ6qw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:23:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------hFFcWjZ4XarRp0Aa0on2LppZ" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 126: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:23:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------hFFcWjZ4XarRp0Aa0on2LppZ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------b7yMNdIu5pCWI8wgev4wK8Uc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Issue 126: who issues the community last call --------------b7yMNdIu5pCWI8wgev4wK8Uc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------PE7R0XkstusNml6kcCyS52Ow" --------------PE7R0XkstusNml6kcCyS52Ow Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------hvcPOK0lDWwhWuxPDFm6D0lO" --------------hvcPOK0lDWwhWuxPDFm6D0lO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2UgZGlkbid0IGdldCB0byBjb3ZlciB0aGlzIGlzc3VlIHRvZGF5LsKgIFRoZSBwcm9wb3Nh bCBpbiB0aGlzIGlzc3VlIGlzIA0KdG8gY2hhbmdlIHJlc3BvbnNpYmlsaXR5IGZyb20gdGhl IFJTV0cgY2hhaXJzIHRvIHRoZSBSU0FCIGNoYWlycy7CoCBJIA0KcG9pbnRlZCBvdXQgdGhh dCBpdCBpcyBhIG1hdHRlciBvZiB3aG8gZXZhbHVhdGVzIGNvbW11bml0eSBjb25zZW5zdXMu DQoNCkJlY2F1c2UgSSBkaWRuJ3QgZ2V0IHRvIGFzayBpbiB0aGUgbWVldGluZywgSSB3b3Vs ZCBsaWtlIHRvIGFzayB0aGlzIA0KcXVlc3Rpb246DQoNCiAgKiBJcyB0aGVyZSBzdXBwb3J0 IGZvciB0aGUgUlNXRyBjaGFpcnMgaXNzdWluZyB0aGlzIGNhbGw/DQoNCkJ5IHN1cHBvcnQs IGlzIHRoaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIGhvbGQgdXAgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudD8g SWYgeW91IA0Kc3VwcG9ydCBtb3ZpbmcgdGhpcyByZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0eSB0byB0aGUgUlNX RyBjaGFpcnMsIGNvdWxkIHlvdSBjcmlzcGx5IA0Kc2F5IHdoYXQgYmVuZWZpdCB5b3UgcGVy Y2VpdmUgaW4gbWFraW5nIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2U/DQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg== --------------hvcPOK0lDWwhWuxPDFm6D0lO Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We didn't get to cover this issue today.=C2=A0 The proposal in thi= s issue is to change responsibility from the RSWG chairs to the RSAB chairs.=C2=A0 I pointed out that it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus.

Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this question:

  • Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this call?

By support, is this something that should hold up this document?=C2= =A0 If you support moving this responsibility to the RSWG chairs, could you crisply say what benefit you perceive in making the change?

Eliot

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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636561449; bh=KiErgWrg6U4KHJDnANiiWJwb0KDBMU7Y0a4MfPdFGrQ=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=ftYd5dBYPCnR74/ur6YwLpIOWqwe/XbfQUuj3yDHDedwPLx3NGhBtLiAk08OwutqE LkLPFNKIm1V+RwejlWX0QyWRWx13TBSj+B1GGmxmNeRCDXt3aor3tHusy4xp6LVFIt 16RCA3/uKacYs/C0UXTXRwcF4B+VKhWU7q7TkKSY= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:24:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Fb5WmzdZy0dyay5IeacqqrIh" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , 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And of course, that's issue 129, not 126.=C2=A0 Sorry.

On 10.11.21 17:23, Eliot Lear wrote:

We didn't get to cover this issue today.=C2=A0 The proposal in t= his issue is to change responsibility from the RSWG chairs to the RSAB chairs.=C2=A0 I pointed out that it is a matter of who evalu= ates community consensus.

Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this question:

  • Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this call?

By support, is this something that should hold up this document?=C2=A0 If you support moving this responsibility to the = RSWG chairs, could you crisply say what benefit you perceive in making the change?

Eliot


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a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636561636; bh=kSfng++KV9zYiemzJrJWkoMOkqDLxiecntyQTLBjYJY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=B8Q1nI4SBrCqTSlwTEzYmjp7+5u+8IxKRxEKnGMU8CIO4BXV7tEUpy0acsZSCwHr7 aC0wgT2zHiwFp4Zuz/xf2VIa19XBDQaARyY8IJqJxLRHqtABszAXa21fIeW4qV+HfA vlfoZdl8aW6VAOYx15OEkqIfOEhrtlpZDr8CU/GM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:27:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------EuNh4vWutBQKm0U0SHjB7w0s" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Issue 119: Heritage X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:27:34 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08:39:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76113A0D81 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:39:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DvBzfDfMaq7t for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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10 Nov 2021 17:38:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------37uS1mKi1cxq1L9nTTvwAT4q" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? 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rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19063A11AF for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:54:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id icBGLsBFkzll for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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+0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------bShvZmT3ZJEJ0eK4iYLZ0tgh" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:54:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------bShvZmT3ZJEJ0eK4iYLZ0tgh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------VBfbHydpgcXRssm6Ly7ltgnp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: Issue 129: who issues the community 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And that should read (I reversed things):

On 10.11.21 17:24, Eliot Lear wrote:
We didn't get to cover this issue today.=C2=A0 The proposal in this= issue is to change responsibility from the RSAB chairs RSWG chairs.=C2=A0 I pointed out that it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus.

Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this question:

  • Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this call?

By support, is this something that should hold up this document?=C2=A0 If you support moving this responsibility to th= e RSWG chairs, could you crisply say what benefit you perceive in making the change?

Eliot



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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbHhaPhYW8Iz for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D8F13A1217 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HqB2m0Rk5z6G9Mb; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:01:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636563696; bh=DZXRidIthOgopGpGZ94uUdmpKwG7faeRbJ9QNsUeGUo=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=TBo2XaxBvx9HwhO6re8yQBPWrmsWiXtLrVyA4DAfCaGgO0VYIKYEZSWD6Er5AMZgr LY0j2RieBOLHVazpR9aJEjjdYJXoTYMbr9zPXPpXGz8+QmD5oGTX1qLNVFpAod0JiT Xy8AD5HVAYjIEz91kr5SplOaxAVnb7MFquj5rZeA= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HqB2l3nq5z6G9MX; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:01:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:01:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:01:47 -0000 The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups can't change their own charters. changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. I can live with leaving this unspecified as that leaves it to the IESG / IAB implicitly to handle. I can live with adding text that says that amendments to this RFC are to be handled by a process defined by agreement between the IESG and IAB. At least there is a decent chance that their announcement of how they want to work on such a change will go to enough places early enough, and attract enough attention, to get folks involved before the RSWG forms a consensus, and then drives it. Yours, Joel On 11/10/2021 11:38 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > There seems to be some confusion – and justifiably so – as to how the > RSWG/RSAB process can change.  We don't say so in the document, and we > need to do so.  What we say is that the scope of the editorial stream > can't change. > > My proposal is that we be explicit, that the RSWG may propose changes to > THIS process.  The reason I think that's safe is that the streams are > well represented in the RSAB and will pay particular attention to such > changes. > > If others want to offer alternatives, please do so quickly. > > Eliot > > From nobody Wed Nov 10 11:20:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EEEB3A12CC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0kV_h80e7KQ for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B8903A1013 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id x9so3603595ilu.6 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bY+gC8crISLgPdQpGCnxYg0ej8ndMEPIaebPEyXfQa0=; b=HbEtpgCN2/rJKnPC31TnXw+FoGSlyQURalHgYfmnLHwYbSUsvJYB/4lB2ArU3weAtJ 8XWnDPjW4VM9fLMr1XM+WO35bZ0KRGc5adpn/lJMA96NGn1hkdn0ZIKshIG5GjX4CBfC BEbxUFSU3AVEd9piLQ1TAHjYQnlC+ZRg9d/T4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bY+gC8crISLgPdQpGCnxYg0ej8ndMEPIaebPEyXfQa0=; b=TCI1zFatbR8Ht8H/+ZSz1WILiZI/p7E2pL11a5TgXP2HsCq5lKD4EGs5/Dq0FJ7e+c nnUFxV42cv5q+I+2AU8gnF5XCOhBHb1S/uGVsGmRKnmbXhgx/ky2ww1wAWvDNr792xyr TrG+PRd1sLMIZDMi0urVeTRSp/FBMfIFDCIMjlHK4Rdmy3ThZI6RG9dHR7J10hE4Tr4d gEnmQfk1sGw4Y6nw79pEAYCZN8YQZOU/ujn+D7nzZzDmNIJdLg1G2E9FCSHDFboT3+GF CM/g9LPsuVI219kB7P2MnAbbBMa9X+gYdssMRP4n9K8Bws/sm0erkcnKouc9oUa1xfBR 07Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532lxmR7yUSZPzWlOtbWiYF6JT0DmqXKHd6mkzDxkF1jkUAxGG4s WiL+0QniijgbxHko4QMIpB8Wdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzjIAPJIzj1e4U+ApyG10547pDkpcQcQi7WOzTTYPJmCNouxVUiO/tXqhAM9g33h1rZCPpvKA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1487:: with SMTP id n7mr846706ilk.252.1636572004835; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f15sm491993ila.68.2021.11.10.11.20.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:20:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:20:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:20:09 -0000 On 11/10/21 8:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > See below. > >> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:18, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 11/9/21 8:58 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, at 10:15, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>>> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised about appeals. >>>>> >>>>> For #93, I suggest: >>>>> >>>>> OLD: >>>>> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be resolved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more general policy. >>>>> NEW: >>>>> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resolutions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formulate a more general policy. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably people >>>> or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks, >>>> document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, etc.). >>> The problem I'm trying to address here is that there is no responsibility in the original text. Who owns the decision? >> >> Ah, I see. >> >> We could say (tweaking some text in the rest of the paragraph): >> >> * If the disagreement raises a new issue that is not covered by an >> existing policy or that cannot be resolved through consultation >> between the RPC and other relevant individuals and bodies (as >> described above), the RSAB should bring to the RSWG in order >> to formulate a new policy. However, if needed, in the interest of >> time the RSAB is responsible for resolving the disagreement before >> a new policy is defined. >> >>> Sure, in most cases, things will just be resolved to mutual satisfaction. But someone has to be responsible if the decision is wrong. > > Actually I also think that someone needs to be clearly responsible to make decisions. This sentence only takes about the case where there is an issue that should be brought to the RSWG. That wasn't the intent of the text, so I need to make it clearer. > However even if an issue is resolved without the need for a new policy, I think it should be clear who is making the final decision, how that is document, and who is respectively responsible if the decision is wrong/gets applied. I don’t think this is fully covered in this section yet, but maybe it actually goes beyond Resolution of Disagreements between the Authors and the RPC which this section talks about…? Hmm, perhaps. The interface between authors and RPC might be the main place where we uncover an ambiguity or gap in existing policies, but not the only place. I'll have a think about this and report back. Peter From nobody Wed Nov 10 11:42:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC6A3A12ED for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:42:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJTAslWVqus2 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4DBF3A12F5 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AAJgFJA2891691 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:42:15 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636573335; bh=RjgEdCxt87I0v1URGvEBrLUQjnxb6iQdoxsxjF1ddAU=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=V0fkCc1Vj1iK7pCMtMBbh0+H8b3TYGJBhjelW0KRFxO0XAUWHVO+WlTXoYa+J9JMk y5FZzKjX9GheNpi9u6vQRFv6NV8TUqgi+vyjK498BWg/Tz6/deKqbAbXqcCeRz4LRH u/j1x+2/N6pxAbKffQd8+Jf4p38VIwhLgkuGbzx4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:42:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ulmKgD3wQKvSpJttOqIvVmYM" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:42:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ulmKgD3wQKvSpJttOqIvVmYM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------O8PSV3pi0NEQW70ZJkKEpNS0"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: How can this process be changed? 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Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--_com.samsung.android.email_274562972482220" Message-Id: <20211110195101.B17283A12F5@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t4sm493632pfj.13.2021.11.10.11.54.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:54:24 -0800 (PST) To: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind References: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org> <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <96a6bd3c-4a2f-d3a9-e246-f06ecdc36184@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:54:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:54:28 -0000 On 10-Nov-21 22:18, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 10/11/2021, at 11:11 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wr= ote: >> >> On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> >>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate = discussion issue to the list. Here it is: >>>>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the dra= ft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE. >>>>>> For the RPC vendor one we say: >>>>>> The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will=20 consist >>>>>> of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected = by the >>>>>> IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers. >>>>>> For the RSCE one we say: >>>>>> The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including membe= rs from >>>>>> the community, that will be responsible for making a recommen= dation >>>>>> to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. >>>>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director ex= plicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers. >>>>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And i= f so, why? >>>>> >>>>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might co= mment, but >>>>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC t= hat >>>>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each com= mitee. >>>> >>>> Yes either or both, no preference. >>>>> >>>>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream mana= gers in >>>>> the loop is essential for the RPC case, >>>> >>>> I agree. >>>> >>>>> and having the community in general >>>>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE. >>>> >>>> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee wh= o understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because they = are >>> representatives of one group or another. >>> Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was jus= t tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn't mean y= ou'd choose randoms. >> >> From my perspective as document editor, I'd say the difference was no= t intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree that we wan= t to follow the same or a similar process for both selection committees. = The RSCE text was written later and I think is more reflective of list di= scussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying that over for the descri= ption of the RPC vendor selection committee as well. >=20 > Sorry but the difference in composition should stay as those are the re= levant compositions for the two different contracts. I think this shows that (in general, not just on this point) we are well = into the territory of over-specifying details. If both said simply "The I= ETF LLC establishes a selection committee" we'd be fine. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 10 12:17:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1143A1329 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PpYeplhzjhFv for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B81C3A1323 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id u11so3999323plf.3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jSvBbj2/Wfk2hR+WfIs7hDIG/9bgWbZmtc37wXJniQI=; b=j5UGbZWgke2YPC1PKDRMYEnu8BmRNCBeM537rx7MYy+zWG0PAn2QSV9sYDHo8cP9bO /2sYYT4eZUKzJTRvdbjhJ1bwBP2WpObDtkCjwJeDhJBgD1fp65k/kcqUTqpwpqpS1R+y nDObEVVqQ+Rhivz2gbhyvPvaKHvxwPm7n2cY6bhAE7x6x+l6tc91pxxCbWxqencStUW7 0DkmQ+mCLTx50MOQciwd1hFKySUh5la9wLlLznaSlHz40goJ9j3KQxqQK7WONgfhzdM6 Hwmqv9J4+Kcgx1MEDpdWHoFTlH+Je0+BIGzdoGBuhIDUqCKBMPjUrikPtIM2khEzQI21 FUDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jSvBbj2/Wfk2hR+WfIs7hDIG/9bgWbZmtc37wXJniQI=; b=XllJ5cAliOlHdWJ/JkUQUmFFXzpyu92TtVuh8Brq3MkeXF1fbvVmpYdab66fIg4hPD ogL0RM4DUoLp25uTT2NLgF1/jZmJhdNAYZXc8q7eZqn06G93M3yxPJg2s63/k1nN4Gsw tOeQ/iWuDU/fWkp6I4M3qS+gNSu/RJSjDIgp5vwAmoum51zVknajTZxvZytZk9heh8jj o30Pve2uN6gkCkGfja/8E9Ypw7EwJpudI7H4nSQmkzkNZM0T1hy7Hx+e+MrpDcnM9TNt q15b1H7xV9MjKESHIBHtxylSr9wXK114wlrbaXkjVAZxo/+AcuPFvevZdhX4qsWQAh6N k/Dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sCZknuTfkORHSexZ5bz8FhVCM//O5oX80rrRJVrBca9d26nen XlYejw6wW5hGKLNAj6waRT9ANuJFlHgYiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzIbRzPetKpcTU5COxGMk4JsICf1hsoxfn1LXt/o84Jw74swU9mmT7KyKRmRMNPrTlnArigIw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b07:b0:142:852a:9e1f with SMTP id o7-20020a1709026b0700b00142852a9e1fmr1487398plk.29.1636575470982; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20sm504734pfu.146.2021.11.10.12.17.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:17:50 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6d941caf-ae8f-12ca-02fd-d912347f8a0d@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:17:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:17:55 -0000 On 11-Nov-21 08:20, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/10/21 8:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> See below. >> >>> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:18, Peter Saint-Andre wr= ote: >>> >>> On 11/9/21 8:58 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, at 10:15, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>> On 11/2/21 9:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>>>> Eliot prompted me to suggest resolutions to the issues I raised ab= out appeals. >>>>>> >>>>>> For #93, I suggest: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> However, in the interest of time the disagreement may be re= solved as the parties best see fit while the RSWG formulates a more gener= al policy. >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> However, in the interest of time the RSAB may propose resol= utions for disagreements after referring the matter to the RSWG to formul= ate a more general policy. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure the first part is an improvement, since presumably peo= ple >>>>> or entities other than the RSAB can propose resolutions (RPC folks,= >>>>> document authors, WG chairs, stream managers, document shepherds, e= tc.). >>>> The problem I'm trying to address here is that there is no responsib= ility in the original text. Who owns the decision? >>> >>> Ah, I see. >>> >>> We could say (tweaking some text in the rest of the paragraph): >>> >>> * If the disagreement raises a new issue that is not covered by = an >>> existing policy or that cannot be resolved through consultatio= n >>> between the RPC and other relevant individuals and bodies (as >>> described above), the RSAB should bring to the RSWG in order >>> to formulate a new policy. However, if needed, in the interes= t of >>> time the RSAB is responsible for resolving the disagreement be= fore >>> a new policy is defined. >>> >>>> Sure, in most cases, things will just be resolved to mutual satisfac= tion. But someone has to be responsible if the decision is wrong. >> >> Actually I also think that someone needs to be clearly responsible to = make decisions. This sentence only takes about the case where there is an=20 issue that should be brought to the RSWG. >=20 > That wasn't the intent of the text, so I need to make it clearer. >=20 >> However even if an issue is resolved without the need for a new policy= , I think it should be clear who is making the final decision, how that i= s document, and who is respectively responsible if the decision is wrong/= gets applied. I don=E2=80=99t think this is fully covered in this section=20 yet, but maybe it actually goes beyond Resolution of Disagreements betwee= n the Authors and the RPC which this section talks about=E2=80=A6? >=20 > Hmm, perhaps. The interface between authors and RPC might be the main > place where we uncover an ambiguity or gap in existing policies, but no= t > the only place. I'll have a think about this and report back. Like it or not, this is what you get by not having an RFC Series Editor. It seems to me that operational issues are decided by the RPC and that policy issues are decided by the RSWG/RSAB, so disputes can really only b= e about (a) failure to correctly implement policy or (b) incomplete or incorrect policy. That leads to two completely different appeal paths. (a) -> RPC -> LLC and (b) -> RSWG -> RSAB -> IAB. What we are dealing with here is how to jump from path (a) to path (b), i.e. jump from section 4.4 of the draft to section 3.2. We can't expect most authors to realise this; they just want to use a non-Latin character where policy doesn't allow it, etc. I have no text to propose, but I hope this frames the issue. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 10 12:57:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF10E3A13BE for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9ejmpGQHLi8 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E293A13BC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id o6-20020a17090a0a0600b001a64b9a11aeso2892885pjo.3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4seam8cXRzk/yJUUp6qbdDsN2hHO0eSWIxLfkCLY51A=; b=Obw3eNdi2B8CMNtIhx/eq6BqPZWJM60vLszDyuTmy8ihpsyHyZ1urHk9Pw7YRoOi7l RZBAnO+COx7EGvGurSNWNR6ALluaQ5Byyz7XO166EYhyd9rWsWpWDq9EI+UqOxhcvcmh LgPi+dqiixm2T2XB2TivHfXxi+3QtMsFyAt6m8v3+4p5RAbRDXVs4kQqb1Wfn4gNtqwh NRX+9KS4uOXTdZf4A9DPUkj9eA9P9ShP+WGMCxDELEDEHSuuoXAqMP/cdLu2TzBwJtS/ QdEm7RKmnOWj8Uo1dR2aW3pbxb0nqUSC6p6H8XSLaicweyMIcb61FW0X/H1s+8VEX41v o/6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4seam8cXRzk/yJUUp6qbdDsN2hHO0eSWIxLfkCLY51A=; b=AeY52SZv4MJ16NMTK0tQcGzRu8dcozccMyi2swiN97688koe/i3CIf/Ywh2h1eZeOM zkXesEiqzJINg8bnKEk5fv30XW2bCjKgskH37tBUzOrdRbsovgyzY6sGNS2+wlU7ek2q nGmeoRZ8cANBT0LFCFk6fSPUj7VFyRaaT8B0TfsyIhsboBnuh5oPYEKCaQ4KITsULX3P 0PfuyoROG/g8tyc9pEUjUHNPEhkBJ/XG6M0DFeb/SSkRji0+3ogNbQpB9h6RfaL5u/Wu WuMR1JDs6rkFv9/VfI3EApf12lZXqn2ETeOvMEmOpgo8e1NKooWIsEV6QTKa+oSC87E3 /EIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Qr1RqhewDW/+Nfvss5reULkCGoENv9MDD3cW+QD/MGixR41OD tcdLf4fpktr53h855IJwx8Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0YJyJT1QqSahwoVTdIsO+1SOdZDxuvJL6157cfVnK9N9tNcFhkXzehNjRxFAJhOMgM6nlOg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7284:b0:142:728b:46a6 with SMTP id d4-20020a170902728400b00142728b46a6mr2085144pll.45.1636577859824; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm368651pgo.71.2021.11.10.12.57.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:57:39 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:57:34 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:57:46 -0000 Since design teams are covered by RFC2418, and we are citing RFC2418, I don't think there is any need to specify it. However, that isn't what bothers me. It's the notion that the RSWG *as currently specified by the draft* is expected to produce highly technical documents like RFC7996bis would be. I fear that this needs changes in the draft, starting with the first sentence of the Abstract. I'm not against such changes but I don't see how to avoid them without leaving a significant gap. Regards Brian Carpenter On 11-Nov-21 02:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Since a design team has no authority except to report to the RSWG, I do > not see why we need to call that out. I would hope and expect > reasonable use of approaches to solve problems, as long as they result > in decisions by the RSWG on the RSWG email list. > > In particular, since we have no means or desire to prevent people from > talking to each other, design teams can and will happen. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/10/2021 7:58 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> >>> On 11/11/2021, at 1:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> >>> Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. >>> >>> It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the RSWG, through the process we have defined. Whether there is also some other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. >> >> Does the draft need to explicitly empower the RSWG to create design teams? >> >> Jay >> >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> Joel, >>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient consultation during development, I could see that working. >>>> This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. >>>>> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, RFCs. >>>> Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes 79996? >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>> >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >> > From nobody Wed Nov 10 13:10:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983143A10DC for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:10:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A5Epm8uThA9f for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12CED3A10D6 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 13:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AALAcEa2934421 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:10:39 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636578639; bh=CMs2QKjg9Zk/uLDYWiRh2+5ifO8thYPhjZnQd3WLFqs=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=NC6S+JvvG5OBHNqOpVlb8D3dfyEZwWuhBkSl+1aIA0XBXrCie20PFWYiOW7llXNCE HGMJj8LZpkcXXxLgUzw1FpwL1UA97Noa7k5K/B+zUZPmcarmovzIUg1gXA7EgAKwdM bNXR0m1HVPdrdUC4zB3hla6NF48gS4EFpkcg1Jhw= Message-ID: <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:10:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------XAoWw26lcwdCyG2iaSogizau" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:10:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------XAoWw26lcwdCyG2iaSogizau Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------xi6J8Wzc0bDv5pfvJAF0wwvC"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham Message-ID: <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure References: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: --------------xi6J8Wzc0bDv5pfvJAF0wwvC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB0aGluayB3ZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gdmFndWUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGxldmVsIGF0IHdoaWNoIHRo ZSBSU1dHIG9wZXJhdGVzLCANCmFuZCBJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCdzIGEgZ29vZCB0 aGluZy7CoCBJdCdzIGdvaW5nIHRvIHRha2UgYSB3aGlsZSBmb3IgDQp0aGUgZ3JvdXAgdG8g Z2V0IGl0cyBiZWFyaW5ncy7CoCBOb3RoaW5nIGJlYXRzIHJ1bm5pbmcgY29kZS7CoCBTbyBs ZXQncyBiZSANCmNhcmVmdWwgYXMgdG8gaG93IG1hbnkgY2hhbmdlcyB3ZSBtYWtlIHdpdGhv dXQgdGhhdCBydW5uaW5nIGNvZGUuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg0KT24gMTAuMTEuMjEgMjE6NTcs IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBTaW5jZSBkZXNpZ24gdGVhbXMgYXJlIGNv dmVyZWQgYnkgUkZDMjQxOCwgYW5kIHdlIGFyZSBjaXRpbmcgUkZDMjQxOCwgDQo+IEkgZG9u J3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlcmUgaXMgYW55IG5lZWQgdG8gc3BlY2lmeSBpdC4NCj4NCj4gSG93ZXZl ciwgdGhhdCBpc24ndCB3aGF0IGJvdGhlcnMgbWUuIEl0J3MgdGhlIG5vdGlvbiB0aGF0IHRo ZSBSU1dHICphcyANCj4gY3VycmVudGx5IHNwZWNpZmllZCBieSB0aGUgZHJhZnQqIGlzIGV4 cGVjdGVkIHRvIHByb2R1Y2UgaGlnaGx5IA0KPiB0ZWNobmljYWwgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGxpa2Ug UkZDNzk5NmJpcyB3b3VsZCBiZS4gSSBmZWFyIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBuZWVkcyANCj4gY2hhbmdl cyBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQsIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIG9mIHRo ZSBBYnN0cmFjdC4NCj4NCj4gSSdtIG5vdCBhZ2FpbnN0IHN1Y2ggY2hhbmdlcyBidXQgSSBk b24ndCBzZWUgaG93IHRvIGF2b2lkIHRoZW0gd2l0aG91dCANCj4gbGVhdmluZyBhIHNpZ25p ZmljYW50IGdhcC4NCj4NCj4gUmVnYXJkcw0KPiDCoMKgIEJyaWFuIENhcnBlbnRlcg0KPg0K Pg0KPiBPbiAxMS1Ob3YtMjEgMDI6MDQsIEpvZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybiB3cm90ZToNCj4+IFNp bmNlIGEgZGVzaWduIHRlYW0gaGFzIG5vIGF1dGhvcml0eSBleGNlcHQgdG8gcmVwb3J0IHRv IHRoZSBSU1dHLCBJIGRvDQo+PiBub3Qgc2VlIHdoeSB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGNhbGwgdGhhdCBv dXQuwqAgSSB3b3VsZCBob3BlIGFuZCBleHBlY3QNCj4+IHJlYXNvbmFibGUgdXNlIG9mIGFw cHJvYWNoZXMgdG8gc29sdmUgcHJvYmxlbXMsIGFzIGxvbmcgYXMgdGhleSByZXN1bHQNCj4+ IGluIGRlY2lzaW9ucyBieSB0aGUgUlNXRyBvbiB0aGUgUlNXRyBlbWFpbCBsaXN0Lg0KPj4N Cj4+IEluIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIsIHNpbmNlIHdlIGhhdmUgbm8gbWVhbnMgb3IgZGVzaXJlIHRv IHByZXZlbnQgcGVvcGxlIGZyb20NCj4+IHRhbGtpbmcgdG8gZWFjaCBvdGhlciwgZGVzaWdu IHRlYW1zIGNhbiBhbmQgd2lsbCBoYXBwZW4uDQo+Pg0KPj4gWW91cnMsDQo+PiBKb2VsDQo+ Pg0KPj4gT24gMTEvMTAvMjAyMSA3OjU4IEFNLCBKYXkgRGFsZXkgd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4NCj4+ Pg0KPj4+PiBPbiAxMS8xMS8yMDIxLCBhdCAxOjU0IEFNLCBKb2VsIE0uIEhhbHBlcm4gPGpt aEBqb2VsaGFscGVybi5jb20+IA0KPj4+PiB3cm90ZToNCj4+Pj4NCj4+Pj4gU29ycnksIEkg aGFkIG5vdCByZWFsaXplZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBoYWQgY2hhbmdlZCBmcm9tIHNt YWxsIA0KPj4+PiBub24tcmZjIGRpcmVjdGl2ZXMgb3N0ZW5zaWJseSBjb21pbmcgb3V0IG9m IHRoZSBSU1dHLg0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+PiBJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IGFuIHVwZGF0ZSB0byBSRkMg Nzk5NiBjb3VsZCByZWFzb25hYmx5IGNvbWUgZnJvbSB0aGUgDQo+Pj4+IFJTV0csIHRocm91 Z2ggdGhlIHByb2Nlc3Mgd2UgaGF2ZSBkZWZpbmVkLsKgIFdoZXRoZXIgdGhlcmUgaXMgYWxz byANCj4+Pj4gc29tZSBvdGhlciB3YXkgaXQgY291bGQgYmUgZG9uZSwgSSBsYWNrIHRoZSBp bWFnaW5hdGlvbiB0byBrbm93Lg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gRG9lcyB0aGUgZHJhZnQgbmVlZCB0byBl eHBsaWNpdGx5IGVtcG93ZXIgdGhlIFJTV0cgdG8gY3JlYXRlIGRlc2lnbiANCj4+PiB0ZWFt cz8NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IEpheQ0KPj4+DQo+Pj4+DQo+Pj4+IFlvdXJzLA0KPj4+PiBKb2VsDQo+ Pj4+DQo+Pj4+IE9uIDExLzEwLzIwMjEgNzozOSBBTSwgTWFyayBOb3R0aW5naGFtIHdyb3Rl Og0KPj4+Pj4gSm9lbCwNCj4+Pj4+PiBPbiAxMCBOb3YgMjAyMSwgYXQgMTE6MTggcG0sIEpv ZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybiANCj4+Pj4+PiA8am1oQGpvZWxoYWxwZXJuLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ Pj4+Pj4NCj4+Pj4+PiBUaGUgUlNXRyBjb3VsZCBzb2xpY2l0IGFkdmljZSwgYXBwb2ludCBh IGRlc2lnbiB0ZWFtLCByZXZpZXcgdGhlIA0KPj4+Pj4+IGRlc2lnbiB0ZWFtIHJlc3VsdHMs IGFuZCBldmVudHVhbGx5IHB1Ymxpc2ggYSBwb2xpY3kgb24gaG93IA0KPj4+Pj4+IGRpYWdy YW1zIHNob3VsZCBiZSByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBpbiBTVkcuIFdpdGggc3VmZmljaWVudCANCj4+ Pj4+PiBjb25zdWx0YXRpb24gZHVyaW5nIGRldmVsb3BtZW50LCBJIGNvdWxkIHNlZSB0aGF0 IHdvcmtpbmcuDQo+Pj4+PiBUaGlzIGlzIHJvdWdobHkgaG93IG1vc3QgZnVuY3Rpb25hbCB3 b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwcyBvcGVyYXRlLg0KPj4+Pj4+IE5laXRoZXIgb2YgdGhvc2UgcmVzdWx0 IGluIGFueSBvbmUgbGluZSwgb3IgZXZlbiBvbmUgcGFyYWdyYXBoLCANCj4+Pj4+PiBSRkNz Lg0KPj4+Pj4gU3VyZS4uLiBidXQgY2FuIHdlIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHByb2Nlc3MgdGhh dCBJIHF1b3RlIGFib3ZlIGNvdWxkIA0KPj4+Pj4gcmVzdWx0IGluIGFuIFJGQyAob24gdGhl IEVkaXRvcmlhbCBzdHJlYW0pIHRoYXQgdXBkYXRlcy9vYnNvbGV0ZXMgDQo+Pj4+PiA3OTk5 Nj8NCj4+Pj4+IC0tIA0KPj4+Pj4gTWFyayBOb3R0aW5naGFtwqDCoCBodHRwczovL3d3dy5t bm90Lm5ldC8NCj4+Pj4NCj4+Pj4gLS0gDQo+Pj4+IFJmY2VkLWZ1dHVyZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCj4+Pj4gUmZjZWQtZnV0dXJlQGlhYi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWFiLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3JmY2VkLWZ1dHVyZQ0KPj4+Pg0KPj4+DQo+Pg0KPg0K --------------xi6J8Wzc0bDv5pfvJAF0wwvC-- --------------XAoWw26lcwdCyG2iaSogizau Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IXyz2kYYZ7JHjblqD6Yc5DKCYBtofPqhkfFk3b4/KDc=; b=eItkli+6nMei9e2yMQAtTjkSToPqXskycaS+LVYNh7DusmIvCS+keVa8Pbhfwuyire rDYr0KV9EheKNoT5GRqd2XZr0ldEozecOCa1Z9cB2w/iyjDst2T5VRgmgo3O9n5ezLp+ tzVNSGWzcFp3tR9uIjyAuPqV2eYID4wdIDRhqC9h+Ka+Eef2KOlyDLYJMe6KomQgaD/U wNGdfCcEThHwwNx1zfVN1fgianfluX7AYoinjK1fBj+bhVvJiB/pVBduxDWkRKLVsVxV DIMTzr9G1EpgXZIAESAE/R37xlcMuQSSYk61rKA0cHCesvyruaTrjZlhaTW3EswlxZSY iRIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334eUn45gtatm9OABf9o+sYvg62KUMvXI49rrSl1qvs+Bw675OF hzPEKNytnwXTvtuWETLcXHg5Flx7IdlqZN8BPpaxAw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9yD5F4djac6AKOqe26WX31QH1nTExalhuJ/xKPA85Fs1CCWgV5ngSNLz3Zql2mdY+RrKDcuxAwj8SKsZ10S0= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9b86:: with SMTP id r6mr1714976iom.50.1636583423323; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:30:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org> <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> <96a6bd3c-4a2f-d3a9-e246-f06ecdc36184@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <96a6bd3c-4a2f-d3a9-e246-f06ecdc36184@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:29:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000097c2b605d076c525" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:30:30 -0000 --00000000000097c2b605d076c525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 11:54 AM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10-Nov-21 22:18, Jay Daley wrote: > > > > > >> On 10/11/2021, at 11:11 AM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > >> > >> On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > >>>>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate > discussion issue to the list. Here it is: > >>>>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the > draft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE. > >>>>>> For the RPC vendor one we say: > >>>>>> The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will > consist > >>>>>> of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected > by the > >>>>>> IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers. > >>>>>> For the RSCE one we say: > >>>>>> The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including > members from > >>>>>> the community, that will be responsible for making a > recommendation > >>>>>> to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. > >>>>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director > explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers. > >>>>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And i= f > so, why? > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might > comment, but > >>>>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC > that > >>>>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each > commitee. > >>>> > >>>> Yes either or both, no preference. > >>>>> > >>>>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream > managers in > >>>>> the loop is essential for the RPC case, > >>>> > >>>> I agree. > >>>> > >>>>> and having the community in general > >>>>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE. > >>>> > >>>> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee wh= o > understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen because they ar= e > >>> representatives of one group or another. > >>> Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was jus= t > tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn't mean you= 'd > choose randoms. > >> > >> From my perspective as document editor, I'd say the difference was no= t > intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree that we want = to > follow the same or a similar process for both selection committees. The > RSCE text was written later and I think is more reflective of list > discussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying that over for the > description of the RPC vendor selection committee as well. > > > > Sorry but the difference in composition should stay as those are the > relevant compositions for the two different contracts. > > I think this shows that (in general, not just on this point) we are well > into the territory of over-specifying details. If both said simply "The > IETF LLC establishes a selection committee" we'd be fine. > > Brian > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000097c2b605d076c525 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 11:54 AM Br= ian E Carpenter <brian.e.= carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10-Nov-21 22:18, Jay Daley wrote:
>
>
>> On 10/11/2021, at 11:11 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:=
>>
>> On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpen= ter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #11= 1 as a separate discussion issue to the list. Here it is:
>>>>>> We have two selection committees established by th= e LLC in the draft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE.
>>>>>> For the RPC vendor one we say:
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF LLC esta= blishes a selection committee, which will
consist
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the IETF Execu= tive Director and other members selected by the
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF LLC in consu= ltation with the stream managers.
>>>>>> For the RSCE one we say:
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF LLC will form a selec= tion committee, including members from
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the community, that will be re= sponsible for making a recommendation
>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the IETF LLC for the RSCE r= ole.
>>>>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Execu= tive director explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream ma= nagers.
>>>>>> Just checking if we think these differences are in= tentional? And if so, why?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both.= Jay might comment, but
>>>>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since i= t's the LLC that
>>>>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED i= s in each commitee.
>>>>
>>>> Yes either or both, no preference.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other difference is significant. I think having th= e stream managers in
>>>>> the loop is essential for the RPC case,
>>>>
>>>> I agree.
>>>>
>>>>> and having the community in general
>>>>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE.
>>>>
>>>> My overriding preference here is to have people on this co= mmittee who understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen becau= se they are
>>> representatives of one group or another.
>>> Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I = was just tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that doesn'= ;t mean you'd choose randoms.
>>
>>=C2=A0 From my perspective as document editor, I'd say the diff= erence was not intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree = that we want to follow the same or a similar process for both selection com= mittees. The RSCE text was written later and I think is more reflective of = list discussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying that over for t= he description of the RPC vendor selection committee as well.
>
> Sorry but the difference in composition should stay as those are the r= elevant compositions for the two different contracts.

I think this shows that (in general, not just on this point) we are well in= to the territory of over-specifying details. If both said simply "The = IETF LLC establishes a selection committee" we'd be fine.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nn15sm7144319pjb.11.2021.11.10.14.45.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:45:59 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mark Nottingham References: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:45:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:46:06 -0000 Ack. But if we weasel-word policy as "policy and related matters" or something like that, we will avoid claims that such things are out of scope. Regards Brian On 11-Nov-21 10:10, Eliot Lear wrote: > I think we have been vague about the level at which the RSWG operates, > and I would suggest that's a good thing.=C2=A0 It's going to take a whi= le for > the group to get its bearings.=C2=A0 Nothing beats running code.=C2=A0 = So let's be > careful as to how many changes we make without that running code. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > On 10.11.21 21:57, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Since design teams are covered by RFC2418, and we are citing RFC2418, >> I don't think there is any need to specify it. >> >> However, that isn't what bothers me. It's the notion that the RSWG *as= >> currently specified by the draft* is expected to produce highly >> technical documents like RFC7996bis would be. I fear that this needs >> changes in the draft, starting with the first sentence of the Abstract= =2E >> >> I'm not against such changes but I don't see how to avoid them without= >> leaving a significant gap. >> >> Regards >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter >> >> >> On 11-Nov-21 02:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> Since a design team has no authority except to report to the RSWG, I = do >>> not see why we need to call that out.=C2=A0 I would hope and expect >>> reasonable use of approaches to solve problems, as long as they resul= t >>> in decisions by the RSWG on the RSWG email list. >>> >>> In particular, since we have no means or desire to prevent people fro= m >>> talking to each other, design teams can and will happen. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/10/2021 7:58 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 11/11/2021, at 1:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small >>>>> non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. >>>>> >>>>> It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the >>>>> RSWG, through the process we have defined.=C2=A0 Whether there is a= lso >>>>> some other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. >>>> >>>> Does the draft need to explicitly empower the RSWG to create design >>>> teams? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the >>>>>>> design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how >>>>>>> diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient >>>>>>> consultation during development, I could see that working. >>>>>> This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. >>>>>>> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, >>>>>>> RFCs. >>>>>> Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could= >>>>>> result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes >>>>>> 79996? >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> Mark Nottingham=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.mnot.net/ >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>> >>>> >>> >> From nobody Wed Nov 10 17:22:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CDA3A1548 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:22:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IW5JSxRJtzsc for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF653A1547 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mkymt-0006hu-Lk; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 02:21:59 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 02:21:58 +0100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> References: To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636593723;5d78765a; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mkymt-0006hu-Lk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:22:08 -0000 I think the RSAB should issue community calls because a) it=E2=80=99s = the stream representatives that are best suited to decide and sent any = calls to the community they represent and b) from a practical point of = view I would expect the RSAB chair to have posting right e.g. on = ietf-announce or other lists but not the RSSWG chair. I not proposing to = necessarily send all community calls to ietf-announce@ but there might = be things where it could make sense. For feedback resolution I would like to see the following way in order = to always have a clear view who is responsible for the document in which = step: The RSWG chair request publication approval and document handling = goes over to the RSAB (chair). If there are any comments in the = community last call(s) there are three options: 1) comments are signification and need more RSSWG work, so the RSAB = hands the document back to the RSWG chairs.=20 2) comments are straight-forward to address. The RSAB confirms with the = document authors/shepherd that they work on a document update and waits = for the document update before an RSAB approval request is issued. 3) there are only minor comments (like nits or editorial). The RSAB = approval request is issued and comments can be addressed with the next = update after approvals or even during RFC editor state. Mirja =20 > On 10. Nov 2021, at 17:54, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > And that should read (I reversed things): >=20 > On 10.11.21 17:24, Eliot Lear wrote: >> We didn't get to cover this issue today. The proposal in this issue = is to change responsibility from the RSAB chairs RSWG chairs. I pointed = out that it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus. >>> Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this = question: >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this = call? >>> By support, is this something that should hold up this document? If = you support moving this responsibility to the RSWG chairs, could you = crisply say what benefit you perceive in making the change? >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 10 18:59:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA43E3A1622 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZF17ZWNW8DTN for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C961D3A1620 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECF44B185F2; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtZYu3l-BgZ3; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 781684B156A1; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:59:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:59:36 +1300 Message-Id: <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: iPad Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 02:59:46 -0000 Hi Mirja A few questions: - How is the non-IETF community included in this last call? In the new mode= l they primarily interact with the RSWG, RSCE and RPC.=20 - We spent a long time agreeing that the streams could appoint anyone they w= anted to the RSAB so what if a stream appoints someone who doesn=E2=80=99t h= ave posting rights to ietf-announce and is not someone who can speak more wi= dely for the stream, how do they issue the last call to their stream? - Do we need to have three separate last call messages going to ietf-announc= e for the same thing? (IESG stream last call, IAB stream last call, ISE stre= am last call) - If a stream representative issues a last call then they could be saying on= e of three things to their community=20 1. Please tell the RSWG your issues with the doc 2. Please tell the RSAB any reasons why they shouldn=E2=80=99t approve this d= oc 3. Please tell your stream representative any reasons why they shouldn=E2=80= =99t vote to approve this doc I can see value in all three so how are these disambiguated if it is the str= eam representatives that issue the last call? While it=E2=80=99s not for me to give a view on who issues the last call, I w= ill note that if the last call is handled by the RSWG then all of these ques= tions are moot. (the RPC could send the ietf-announce message on behalf of t= he RSWG if we are worried about posting rights for RSWG chairs). Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org > On 11/11/2021, at 2:22 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI think the RSAB should issue community calls because a) it=E2=80= =99s the stream representatives that are best suited to decide and sent any c= alls to the community they represent and b) from a practical point of view I= would expect the RSAB chair to have posting right e.g. on ietf-announce or o= ther lists but not the RSSWG chair. I not proposing to necessarily send all c= ommunity calls to ietf-announce@ but there might be things where it could ma= ke sense. >=20 > For feedback resolution I would like to see the following way in order to a= lways have a clear view who is responsible for the document in which step: T= he RSWG chair request publication approval and document handling goes over t= o the RSAB (chair). If there are any comments in the community last call(s) t= here are three options: >=20 > 1) comments are signification and need more RSSWG work, so the RSAB hands t= he document back to the RSWG chairs.=20 > 2) comments are straight-forward to address. The RSAB confirms with the do= cument authors/shepherd that they work on a document update and waits for th= e document update before an RSAB approval request is issued. > 3) there are only minor comments (like nits or editorial). The RSAB approv= al request is issued and comments can be addressed with the next update afte= r approvals or even during RFC editor state. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 10. Nov 2021, at 17:54, Eliot Lear wrote: >>=20 >> And that should read (I reversed things): >>=20 >>> On 10.11.21 17:24, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> We didn't get to cover this issue today. The proposal in this issue is t= o change responsibility from the RSAB chairs RSWG chairs. I pointed out tha= t it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus. >>>> Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this qu= estion: >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this call? >>>> By support, is this something that should hold up this document? If yo= u support moving this responsibility to the RSWG chairs, could you crisply s= ay what benefit you perceive in making the change? >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 10 19:29:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875413A1668 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJJ8ti3mFbbI for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C67F3A1664 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id iq11so3165184pjb.3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ezGmM5rAgHqhJ4KGKoU60umaxGowsjOu8YfVAKvRuZ0=; b=DRXGQHqvcgNqiWp+od7x8XqKqmjk68g7VF6gf5dfnvf8KvvOTl7YqH2fZ4C5uGiSEy oONyO3viSMrKi9WSpARhvbzJhfL+xk8ftP8x/My2GNQtSrquGEUMmdgtrRfyk/uupS1+ 1+SY4yqdoFDN6BcQTVVFxhJ0f4xCaOg4egXHYfmFFnEj8OO5N6rMAEG7xmimEuOmSqDC h3lJe0hd4HW3fpnk7n8DUiGC8Tem/GTdMwdP5YO9UFcJmDsebnagCqjMYAbGMQWH3g0K WgF18CZt9DnYcJ5/qsdOoOkI5BwcRn3neHf7jtpCtzUOshmPw/g5AI0yCanskjaorrBm b1xA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ezGmM5rAgHqhJ4KGKoU60umaxGowsjOu8YfVAKvRuZ0=; b=GT6zy7dRzK8gb4qkCO75TeytkunKJ2fkVVQ5HknCowZWpFJmebslZikUy/eF8FPuh1 WZcXtFVSOsY76h1PfybcHq9uD6psRP5cabz/9oi5I4i4f8CwJyhg8x20fHZ697DRFQkJ E/G0bq79KOAWh7WrUNzYVSh9YJowuSFHT1rBSzQ1XaolItSreMUVTbFqXUYjAfnqhItm vJCw3FtzoNRIU9VkKRh1OubdCNNkDbpx5IaHfJm6PqYTQFecY9KeqKOi0TLXyeZ8AFZk Nk+gZh79jXgBNsHk7LueebTn+dvE1i0JMiqVYN96/O89xHep7caKKBgs4aIfz6N66/Os 1GYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530EivmUTFpTH1zm29HtTrJrywS80GO9OKFuSgXpjq1hn7m5gVk2 Lnsp8hlFYeSs7hX+iNascy3OYlV0SabVUg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzk8jfpuc5UD9AMiJF5WqFJ0MZ+c+BFoeKwenNO+V3L2ym4U1x753ZzKmt/RgCrTmclYokXxg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:230b:b0:141:e3ce:2738 with SMTP id d11-20020a170903230b00b00141e3ce2738mr4160330plh.57.1636601386601; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t8sm780026pgk.66.2021.11.10.19.29.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:29:45 -0800 (PST) To: Jay Daley , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:29:41 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 03:29:51 -0000 I wonder whether we should even cover these details. As long as the docum= ent says that the LC must be sent widely, and that the RSWG must review a= ny non-editorial changes, experience will show the best way to do it. Regards Brian On 11-Nov-21 15:59, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi Mirja >=20 > A few questions: >=20 > - How is the non-IETF community included in this last call? In the new=20 model they primarily interact with the RSWG, RSCE and RPC. >=20 > - We spent a long time agreeing that the streams could appoint anyone t= hey wanted to the RSAB so what if a stream appoints someone who doesn=E2=80= =99t have posting rights to ietf-announce and is not someone who can spea= k more widely for the stream, how do they issue the last call to their st= ream? >=20 > - Do we need to have three separate last call messages going to ietf-an= nounce for the same thing? (IESG stream last call, IAB stream last call, = ISE stream last call) >=20 > - If a stream representative issues a last call then they could be sayi= ng one of three things to their community > 1. Please tell the RSWG your issues with the doc > 2. Please tell the RSAB any reasons why they shouldn=E2=80=99t approve = this doc > 3. Please tell your stream representative any reasons why they shouldn=E2= =80=99t vote to approve this doc > I can see value in all three so how are these disambiguated if it is th= e stream representatives that issue the last call? >=20 > While it=E2=80=99s not for me to give a view on who issues the last cal= l, I will note that if the last call is handled by the RSWG then all of t= hese questions are moot. (the RPC could send the ietf-announce message on=20 behalf of the RSWG if we are worried about posting rights for RSWG chairs= ). >=20 > Jay >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 10 20:15:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCD73A16B3 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvmKfFVdEmLz for ; 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The reasons are best expressed by Mike StJohns in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/IjhCkjCEwxaT51As_ibbA9Ul9SU, and in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/t1ZHIlgzdQBY5mADDy6ZvdPpClc/ While I clearly prefer this solution, I can live with the last call being issued by the RSAB chair, too. Regards, Martin. On 2021-11-11 01:23, Eliot Lear wrote: > We didn't get to cover this issue today.  The proposal in this issue is > to change responsibility from the RSWG chairs to the RSAB chairs.  I > pointed out that it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus. > > Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask this > question: > >  * Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this call? > > By support, is this something that should hold up this document? If you > support moving this responsibility to the RSWG chairs, could you crisply > say what benefit you perceive in making the change? > > Eliot > > From nobody Wed Nov 10 20:26:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5103A16C1 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:26:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=RgSuCB0s; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HBdhchYC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tU1t_MLV6Iiu for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 319493A16C0 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322AC5C0217; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:26:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=F eFiOlqD/Tj11rCZNHrTARJklrSBg+R0wXzh6uRfaT4=; b=RgSuCB0sLuWN1wq0z yac92QVMLIueDbDkzWPjSmbate+3Pf4tdzZir2e4l/JpnUGa5kUGetWDSnAcxdqo ZaejdkGCanQRC5knJ3fM47wAeDXJUicQSSelgiSkA8QQF0TPw936zxzPBNAUuUFW L27fyOR4jWCP4NDzTJvUeO5b6NaPqBoIiCMTnOmitAXfWZidQl6V2FtdDAALxXu5 Ebyxd6vWVaeOE1ZCC+5y0eY9TX+fP1zPNx+xx29nedGCNqNsBw3O54p+K1Cxs49Y 0dwlZeG0HgNTgiX059AfgTflxKqVgCfS9PDM8690tCObGfamhXfV1GvkstFImbw/ bdTgQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=FeFiOlqD/Tj11rCZNHrTARJklrSBg+R0wXzh6uRfa T4=; b=HBdhchYC76gb91oDOHqrEE9fCCmR5d+aVIBA2S+SGxIkusmwBc3M0loQ2 0uvJdx8ZBAnFHkdjohnaydU9xFR66zZbo3lk4FtWrpSXLOcS7Hq2+LTgToUhMuCJ YZbez7NemHIlawNmo/EhWNCfHxQPi6015RPERohrrqsPO45fH8dEEsRQa9hes84L fCS+/s3uxT6Zt7gjcv9avZCrHMHS48aUyYsXsUlP3QE1LMArk1vKmu5MByhwPw42 p19ip4pCmhs9J9zDypkWBQx/C4PI1qXp1Jf8RVBIUAOzkojSZStXTfmMDEiJR2xH DxxlVlsRw/7tB1ZpPIGcd3ARGjkaA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrvddtgdeijecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepuedtkefhtdfggfejjeegkeevheefhffguefgheefgfegkefhiedtgeduvedufeei necuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:26:36 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:26:34 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11E9D2D1-4853-439F-A651-F5A9E460A4AB@mnot.net> References: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 04:26:45 -0000 How about: Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced = using the process documented here, but are only operative upon agreement = of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does not preclude = such changes from being defined outside this process, so long as the = same agreement is found. > On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG = that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>=20 >> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups = can't change their own charters. >>=20 >> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be = visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal = process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage = this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >=20 > Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even say = that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the = editorial stream, which reads: >=20 >> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and = IETF LLC. >=20 > We can say something else. But we have to say something, because the = IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't = specified additional authority for anyone else. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 10 21:03:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3A43A1705 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:03:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mt3nIEIiwgN1 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10A43A1163 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ml2FY-000PWK-0A; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:03:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:03:42 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , Mirja Kuehlewind cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6d941caf-ae8f-12ca-02fd-d912347f8a0d@gmail.com> References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> <6d941caf-ae8f-12ca-02fd-d912347f8a0d@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Appeals issues X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:03:57 -0000 --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 09:17 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Hmm, perhaps. The interface between authors and RPC might be >> the main place where we uncover an ambiguity or gap in >> existing policies, but not the only place. I'll have a think >> about this and report back. > > Like it or not, this is what you get by not having an RFC > Series Editor. Exactly. > It seems to me that operational issues are decided by the RPC > and that policy issues are decided by the RSWG/RSAB, so > disputes can really only be about (a) failure to correctly > implement policy or (b) incomplete or incorrect policy. That > leads to two completely different appeal paths. No, there can also be a (c) which is a disagreement about whether something is a policy issue, an implementation one, or both. We've actually seen that happen many times over the years when an issue pops up for which the fix seems like a small operational or implementation decision but is one that turns out to have longer term or broader implications. As you suggest above, the traditional solution has rested in an RSE (or predecessor title) who has expertise (including sufficient expertise to know when to seek additional help and where to find it), responsibility, and authority for publications expertise, policy, and operations and whom the community is willing to trust to identify issues that require or would benefit from community input and to decide on others without wasting the community's time. Both the behavior of the IAB and RSOC that led us into this process and this effort are trying to replace that model with authority distributed into the community and a great deal of process and complicated relationships. That may have significant appeal (and I think it does) but it also leads inevitably to this kind of tangled situation. > (a) -> RPC -> LLC and (b) -> RSWG -> RSAB -> IAB. What we are > dealing with here is how to jump from path (a) to path (b), > i.e. jump from section 4.4 of the draft to section 3.2. We > can't expect most authors to realise this; they just want to > use a non-Latin character where policy doesn't allow it, etc. Since you have chosen that particular example, I note that "can I put this character there, where the policy permits it" is an operational question but might turn into a policy one if the character is a compatibility one or has unfortunate composition/decomposition properties. Or, if the issue is really a string that poses special rendering challenges, that could be either a policy problem or several different operational or tooling ones. > I have no text to propose, but I hope this frames the issue. Right. I'm in the same position. john From nobody Wed Nov 10 22:50:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2EB3A0C7A for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:50:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fDHPIGe70eCN for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ty1jpn01on0706.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe9d::706]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1AAB3A0C77 for ; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 06:50:13 +0000 Message-ID: <748504d1-067f-7017-d44b-7eae4b172534@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:50:09 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , Peter Saint-Andre , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Martin Thomson References: <2977ae7f-fbbf-44eb-9d4a-152b7506871e@www.fastmail.com> <96cd6850-53d1-5544-dd79-0ac00907d008@mozilla.com> <9cab6144-61c8-a66b-8533-e038ee18b8ba@mozilla.com> <754C2D3C-0C4D-4FE7-93CA-366A5CDD624B@kuehlewind.net> <6d941caf-ae8f-12ca-02fd-d912347f8a0d@gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR01CA0096.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2c::36) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [133.2.210.39] (133.2.210.39) by TYAPR01CA0096.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2c::36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4690.18 via Frontend Transport; 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The issue with policy and implementation is that they may overlap, leading to duplicate work and conflicts, or that things may fall between the cracks (the policy side thinks it's operational, and the operations side thinks its policy). Except for "everybody is nice with each other and does the right thing™", I don't yet see how our document deals with that issue. Regards, Martin. On 2021-11-11 14:03, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 09:17 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > >>> Hmm, perhaps. The interface between authors and RPC might be >>> the main place where we uncover an ambiguity or gap in >>> existing policies, but not the only place. I'll have a think >>> about this and report back. >> >> Like it or not, this is what you get by not having an RFC >> Series Editor. > > Exactly. > >> It seems to me that operational issues are decided by the RPC >> and that policy issues are decided by the RSWG/RSAB, so >> disputes can really only be about (a) failure to correctly >> implement policy or (b) incomplete or incorrect policy. That >> leads to two completely different appeal paths. > > No, there can also be a (c) which is a disagreement about > whether something is a policy issue, an implementation one, or > both. We've actually seen that happen many times over the > years when an issue pops up for which the fix seems like a small > operational or implementation decision but is one that turns out > to have longer term or broader implications. As you suggest > above, the traditional solution has rested in an RSE (or > predecessor title) who has expertise (including sufficient > expertise to know when to seek additional help and where to find > it), responsibility, and authority for publications expertise, > policy, and operations and whom the community is willing to > trust to identify issues that require or would benefit from > community input and to decide on others without wasting the > community's time. > > Both the behavior of the IAB and RSOC that led us into this > process and this effort are trying to replace that model with > authority distributed into the community and a great deal of > process and complicated relationships. That may have > significant appeal (and I think it does) but it also leads > inevitably to this kind of tangled situation. > >> (a) -> RPC -> LLC and (b) -> RSWG -> RSAB -> IAB. What we are >> dealing with here is how to jump from path (a) to path (b), >> i.e. jump from section 4.4 of the draft to section 3.2. We >> can't expect most authors to realise this; they just want to >> use a non-Latin character where policy doesn't allow it, etc. > > Since you have chosen that particular example, I note that "can > I put this character there, where the policy permits it" is an > operational question but might turn into a policy one if the > character is a compatibility one or has unfortunate > composition/decomposition properties. Or, if the issue is > really a string that poses special rendering challenges, that > could be either a policy problem or several different > operational or tooling ones. > >> I have no text to propose, but I hope this frames the issue. > > Right. I'm in the same position. > > john > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Wed Nov 10 22:53:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126A53A0C7E for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:52:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ql_EyKPbkrmL for ; 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X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 06:52:59 -0000 Hello Mark, others, On 2021-11-11 13:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: > How about: > > Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced using the process documented here, but are only operative upon agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so long as the same agreement is found. I really like this, because it gives the RSWG/RSAB the chance to fix obvious issues in the process (e.g. after a review of the current process a few years in), while also allowing changes from the outside if needed. Regards, Martin. > > >> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> >> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>> >>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups can't change their own charters. >>> >>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >> >> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even say that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the editorial stream, which reads: >> >>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF LLC. >> >> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because the IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't specified additional authority for anyone else. >> >> Eliot >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 10 23:44:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B2C3A0D52 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:44:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yg-tuyhL2q0D for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B3DD3A0D4E for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2021 23:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AB7iALw3241931 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:44:11 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636616651; bh=n6tCCkwDVrOCysi9TPVevZRa8p8TyCH2uqIv7PO5I6s=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=fdslrXn/tIIt5FOvkH+MptaB9aF6hdf+pKPw+OFNVl9NPhSILsq/j+rmqlJ+jNcvv p9AzC7ugPmxZtYKVolvjSEJTOwwmjcjj0A8porMvbsF4Y+qhyfgZgBI0BO+jNDqDi8 fZvLgmKvtyD2tpK12+3Wcqn3rlntnx6JBewh9uRI= Message-ID: <9ca917a0-88ea-8628-8c2a-41516f43c1c3@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:44:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> <11E9D2D1-4853-439F-A651-F5A9E460A4AB@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------fyqCrxdOezgWKTVjRWVG9C60" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 07:44:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------fyqCrxdOezgWKTVjRWVG9C60 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------L6AUhhyHG4RpIdeu3eAoY0tk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <9ca917a0-88ea-8628-8c2a-41516f43c1c3@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? 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ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgudeiheegvedvvedvve evleefhfetudevtdffteffleduvddtgeeiheeuvedvhfenucffohhmrghinhepihgrsgdr ohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpe hmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E91F83C0AEC; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 03:06:36 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <11E9D2D1-4853-439F-A651-F5A9E460A4AB@mnot.net> References: <8066c8cf-e63b-6af2-af58-c322323d3478@lear.ch> <11E9D2D1-4853-439F-A651-F5A9E460A4AB@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:06:17 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:06:48 -0000 WFM On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 15:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: > How about: > > Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced > using the process documented here, but are only operative upon > agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does > not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so > long as the same agreement is found. > > > >> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> >> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>> >>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups can't change their own charters. >>> >>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >> >> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even say that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the editorial stream, which reads: >> >>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF LLC. >> >> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because the IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't specified additional authority for anyone else. >> >> Eliot >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 00:12:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBD93A0DCB for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:12:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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bh=wNzBwTTX10iVJ8GPedCiKGdTrwWGzKpqqqGenmKkYDs=; h=Date:To:References:From:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=SiDwmGuIsTljCT+i+BDDBd5/NwSQQuXmm5jMAO2l2EL+oxOzobn+nBQOqPsVf4dec c+HMbtddmPHsMnJAX1hYB/MYHt3PWBDoBURuA/KOR5vSD5g9FuyloOrejQHn0vzpYx mTeC6rkAgPY+kxvuzQzNk3MTFOTd5PE/cPvKMg5c= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:11:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter References: <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Yc3M8LAGcelGrvJ6dWMih6o7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:12:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Yc3M8LAGcelGrvJ6dWMih6o7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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On 10.11.21 23:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Ack. Bu= t if we weasel-word policy as "policy and related matters"
or something like that, we will avoid claims that such things
are out of scope.

Yes.

Your issue is that we haven't specifically said that the RSWG can work at whatever level it needs to accomplish its goals.=C2= =A0 Mike's issue is that the scope is too broad.

I think this needs to be addressed in two spots in the text.

In the Section 3 chapeau:

Policies under the purview of the RSWG an= d RSAB might include but are not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication and dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of the RFC Series.

To address Mike's point, I think we need to remove "but are not necessarily limited to".=C2=A0 The remit still covers the overall management of the series.=C2=A0 One would really have to use one's imagination to go beyond that remit while still having something to do with RFCS, and in that instance, the RSWG and RSAB can go back to the community to request additional authority.

The second change goes to what work the RSWG goes to.=C2=A0 Here J= oel and others have been quite clear: produce RFCs.=C2=A0 But what thos= e RFCs contain is likely to need to vary.=C2=A0 I would very much exp= ect the RSCE to be heavily involved in any substantial publication standard (that's why that person will earn the big bucks).

So, in Section 3.1.1 (RFC Series Working Group):

The RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) shall= formulate proposals regarding policies that govern the RFC Series.

Change to:

The RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) shall= formulate proposals regarding policies and any necessary supporting specifications and guidelines that govern the RFC Series.

This further addresses Mark's point that makes it crystal clear that, yeah, SVG can be documented.=C2=A0 The words "any necessary" = are present to not require that such specifications emanate from the RSWG when all are satisfied with what the LLC is producing.=C2=A0 This also allows for leveling to happen as we lear= n the job.

Thoughts?

Eliot

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port 10024) with ESMTP id yFp9ouPU6lDr for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6803A3A0E1D for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904564B18638; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e284xAEOgQNQ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 349634B1862B; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 00:42:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:42:38 +1300 Message-Id: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> References: Cc: rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: iPad Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:42:50 -0000 > On 11/11/2021, at 9:06 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFWFM +1 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 15:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> How about: >>=20 >> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced=20 >> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon=20 >> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does=20 >> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so=20 >> long as the same agreement is found. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG th= at the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>>>=20 >>>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups c= an't change their own charters. >>>>=20 >>>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be vi= sibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal process. W= e can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage this. But the proce= ss has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >>>=20 >>> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even say th= at we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the editorial s= tream, which reads: >>>=20 >>>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF= LLC. >>>=20 >>> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because the IE= TF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't specified addi= tional authority for anyone else. >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 11 01:20:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0953A0637 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:20:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3TYtITbEW6jD for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02E5E3A0653 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200f886155f4ea9667c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:f886:155f:4ea9:667c]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1ml6FV-0002Hp-UG; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:20:01 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:20:00 +0100 References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> To: rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636622406;79179c2d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1ml6FV-0002Hp-UG Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:20:11 -0000 I'm okay with the text below, however, I think most of word are just = unnecessary. The requirement below is simply: "Updates, amendments and refinements of this document require agreement = of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC." The text below basically says then further than any process can be used = to produce these changes. But that doesn=E2=80=99t really say anything. = So I would prefer a wording like the above to make the requirement = crystal clear. If we want to be explicit I guess we can add another = sentence: =E2=80=9CSuch changes can be produced in the RSWG or any other process = that is accepted by the community.=E2=80=9D Mirja > On 11. Nov 2021, at 09:42, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 11/11/2021, at 9:06 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFWFM >=20 > +1 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director=20 > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >>=20 >>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 15:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> How about: >>>=20 >>> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced=20= >>> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon=20 >>> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this = does=20 >>> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, = so=20 >>> long as the same agreement is found. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the = RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working = groups can't change their own charters. >>>>>=20 >>>>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should = be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal = process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage = this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >>>>=20 >>>> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even = say that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the = editorial stream, which reads: >>>>=20 >>>>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and = IETF LLC. >>>>=20 >>>> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because = the IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't = specified additional authority for anyone else. >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 01:29:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376F83A07B1 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:29:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xXDrzuywp8GS for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50C313A0791 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AB9TEre3292222 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:29:14 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636622954; bh=8dVzNwWDSUpaeyoGpkiFLd6UXYcsikQZmc7EEck+pu0=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=pvUUP9Aqcw/sjR3jC0/+ejWHEclKaoC7LmnPuQL1Pq+Mdhe3dW9EpnFyF/cMr606W hy7lvMgFWiDhIXLRCuR7pcuC29yeu/maUqOsxVV3YXpvB1AxBe/SpQ8gqQEUcCBojz G+Ub0eL58OKUs8lEtYIPX59Gu3FSY8uscioIDP4A= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:29:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------e0okFhRKwKDg4WfSlkLdEx0P" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:29:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------e0okFhRKwKDg4WfSlkLdEx0P Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------frd3UKASpuNsgObVnL0Ea6Na"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D9FC3A0819; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b2000d09e93416fadaff.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:d09:e934:16fa:daff]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1ml6Sq-00064I-Jd; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:33:48 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:33:47 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636623233;0c8f11da; X-HE-SMSGID: 1ml6Sq-00064I-Jd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:33:59 -0000 See below. > On 11. Nov 2021, at 03:59, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja >=20 > A few questions: >=20 > - How is the non-IETF community included in this last call? In the = new model they primarily interact with the RSWG, RSCE and RPC.=20 Non-IETF community might already be part of the RSWG last call. However, = there is still the requirement in the text to send the community last = call to ref-interest@@. That won=E2=80=99t change. >=20 > - We spent a long time agreeing that the streams could appoint anyone = they wanted to the RSAB so what if a stream appoints someone who = doesn=E2=80=99t have posting rights to ietf-announce and is not someone = who can speak more widely for the stream, how do they issue the last = call to their stream? I was assuming that we actually give the RSAB chair posting right to = ietf@announce@. Given we use this list for multiple communities, there = should only be one call send by the RSAB chair. The other stream = representative might decide send to e.g. last-call@, iab@, = architecture-discuss@, or irsg@. I guess over time we might add a = function to the Datatracker to send these things more or less = automatically to the right list(s) (or those lists could be selected in = the Datatracker when the call is issued). Point is that I would prefer = the calls to come from a group of stream representations that have some = knowledge of their stream needs. I assume that the role of the stream representative means that that = person can speak more widely for the stream, or maybe I don=E2=80=99t = understand what you mean with that? >=20 > - Do we need to have three separate last call messages going to = ietf-announce for the same thing? (IESG stream last call, IAB stream = last call, ISE stream last call) See above; no, only one call send from the RSAB. >=20 > - If a stream representative issues a last call then they could be = saying one of three things to their community=20 > 1. Please tell the RSWG your issues with the doc > 2. Please tell the RSAB any reasons why they shouldn=E2=80=99t approve = this doc > 3. Please tell your stream representative any reasons why they = shouldn=E2=80=99t vote to approve this doc > I can see value in all three so how are these disambiguated if it is = the stream representatives that issue the last call? We don=E2=80=99t distinguish this kind of feedback in the IETF last = call. People send feedback and the AD or in this case the RSAB needs to = decide in which category the feedback falls and how to handle it. Note = that the RSAB has to do that for your point 2 and 3 not mater who sends = the call. >=20 > While it=E2=80=99s not for me to give a view on who issues the last = call, I will note that if the last call is handled by the RSWG then all = of these questions are moot. (the RPC could send the ietf-announce = message on behalf of the RSWG if we are worried about posting rights for = RSWG chairs). I don=E2=80=99t think the RPC should send out last calls in the name of = anybody. We might ask secretariat support for the RSAB in the future and = the secretariat to send it out in the name the RSAB (or as I said above = the datatracker might have a function to do that automatically). Also the question of where exactly the community last calls need to be = send for a given document is not moot and needs to be addressed by the = RSAB and thereby the stream representatives and not the RSWG. Mirja =20 >=20 > Jay > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director=20 > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 >> On 11/11/2021, at 2:22 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFI think the RSAB should issue community calls because a) = it=E2=80=99s the stream representatives that are best suited to decide = and sent any calls to the community they represent and b) from a = practical point of view I would expect the RSAB chair to have posting = right e.g. on ietf-announce or other lists but not the RSSWG chair. I = not proposing to necessarily send all community calls to ietf-announce@ = but there might be things where it could make sense. >>=20 >> For feedback resolution I would like to see the following way in = order to always have a clear view who is responsible for the document in = which step: The RSWG chair request publication approval and document = handling goes over to the RSAB (chair). If there are any comments in the = community last call(s) there are three options: >>=20 >> 1) comments are signification and need more RSSWG work, so the RSAB = hands the document back to the RSWG chairs.=20 >> 2) comments are straight-forward to address. The RSAB confirms with = the document authors/shepherd that they work on a document update and = waits for the document update before an RSAB approval request is issued. >> 3) there are only minor comments (like nits or editorial). The RSAB = approval request is issued and comments can be addressed with the next = update after approvals or even during RFC editor state. >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 10. Nov 2021, at 17:54, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>=20 >>> And that should read (I reversed things): >>>=20 >>>> On 10.11.21 17:24, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> We didn't get to cover this issue today. The proposal in this = issue is to change responsibility from the RSAB chairs RSWG chairs. I = pointed out that it is a matter of who evaluates community consensus. >>>>> Because I didn't get to ask in the meeting, I would like to ask = this question: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Is there support for the RSWG chairs issuing this = call? >>>>> By support, is this something that should hold up this document? = If you support moving this responsibility to the RSWG chairs, could you = crisply say what benefit you perceive in making the change? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 01:48:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B167E3A089B; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fdy0CAc9FUhy; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E3DF3A0899; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 01:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b2000d09e93416fadaff.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:d09:e934:16fa:daff]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1ml6h6-0002no-Ji; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:48:32 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:48:31 +0100 Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1636624117;bad33f7d; X-HE-SMSGID: 1ml6h6-0002no-Ji Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:48:39 -0000 I wasn=E2=80=99t proposing to specify this in this detail. As you say = one sentence and/or maybe some word tweaks fo the existing text might be = enough. Note that the currently procedure as specified is already mostly aligned = with what I propose: 6) Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a = community call for comments as further described in {{cfc}}. If = substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again consider = those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At this same time, = the RSAB will also consider the proposal. 7) If substantial changes have been made, additional community calls for = comment should be issued by the RSAB, and again comments considered by = the RSWG. 8) Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will submit = the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration. I think what I have in mind (and is probably slightly closer to the IESG = process with the respective states in the datatracker) would be this: 6) Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSWG will request = approval for publication and hand the document to the RSSAB. 7) The RSAB shall issue a community call for comments as further = described in {{cfc}}.=20 8) If substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will hand the = document back to the RSWG. If substantial changes have been made, an = additional RSWG call last should be consider by the RSWG chairs. When = all comments have been addressed to the satisfaction of the RSWG, the = chairs will re-request approval by the RSAB which may decide to issue = additional community calls respectively. 8) Once all substantial comments have been addressed or if no/only = non-substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will consider the = proposal for approval. I think this text would make it more clear who is responsible for = processing of a document in each step. Mirja > On 11. Nov 2021, at 04:29, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > I wonder whether we should even cover these details. As long as the = document says that the LC must be sent widely, and that the RSWG must = review any non-editorial changes, experience will show the best way to = do it. >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 11-Nov-21 15:59, Jay Daley wrote: >> Hi Mirja >> A few questions: >> - How is the non-IETF community included in this last call? In the = new=20 > model they primarily interact with the RSWG, RSCE and RPC. >> - We spent a long time agreeing that the streams could appoint anyone = they wanted to the RSAB so what if a stream appoints someone who = doesn=E2=80=99t have posting rights to ietf-announce and is not someone = who can speak more widely for the stream, how do they issue the last = call to their stream? >> - Do we need to have three separate last call messages going to = ietf-announce for the same thing? (IESG stream last call, IAB stream = last call, ISE stream last call) >> - If a stream representative issues a last call then they could be = saying one of three things to their community >> 1. Please tell the RSWG your issues with the doc >> 2. Please tell the RSAB any reasons why they shouldn=E2=80=99t = approve this doc >> 3. Please tell your stream representative any reasons why they = shouldn=E2=80=99t vote to approve this doc >> I can see value in all three so how are these disambiguated if it is = the stream representatives that issue the last call? >> While it=E2=80=99s not for me to give a view on who issues the last = call, I will note that if the last call is handled by the RSWG then all = of these questions are moot. (the RPC could send the ietf-announce = message on=20 > behalf of the RSWG if we are worried about posting rights for RSWG = chairs). >> Jay >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 11 02:00:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB943A096D; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 02:00:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVO1hYFcJsZe; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ejCg9ifGX4Hl75Y102FQ8zYg" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:00:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------ejCg9ifGX4Hl75Y102FQ8zYg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 03:41:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8396681b-48c6-8ff4-07f7-8972bbd66663@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 06:41:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:42:03 -0000 I prefer these words to the proposal from Mark. They put the responsibility in the right place. (While I find myself wanting stronger words, I think that is probably over-specifying.) Yours, Joel On 11/11/2021 4:20 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I'm okay with the text below, however, I think most of word are just unnecessary. The requirement below is simply: > > "Updates, amendments and refinements of this document require agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC." > > The text below basically says then further than any process can be used to produce these changes. But that doesn’t really say anything. So I would prefer a wording like the above to make the requirement crystal clear. If we want to be explicit I guess we can add another sentence: > > “Such changes can be produced in the RSWG or any other process that is accepted by the community.” > > Mirja > > > >> On 11. Nov 2021, at 09:42, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 11/11/2021, at 9:06 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> >>> WFM >> >> +1 >> >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> exec-director@ietf.org >> >>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 15:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> How about: >>>> >>>> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be produced >>>> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >>>> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this does >>>> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, so >>>> long as the same agreement is found. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>>>>> >>>>>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working groups can't change their own charters. >>>>>> >>>>>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that should be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the normal process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to manage this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >>>>> >>>>> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even say that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the editorial stream, which reads: >>>>> >>>>>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF LLC. >>>>> >>>>> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because the IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't specified additional authority for anyone else. >>>>> >>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > From nobody Thu Nov 11 05:40:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A30D3A1014 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xFzaOnR8u9kN for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 908463A1016 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id r8so5777222qkp.4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=RlqGCD+QIqNpdOb4kQYmV525ccK9uqQNoimGI2gLOSs=; b=Pu8A/L+9F/5qbNzBDXjCOn93St6bkVjRgO79HHhAdlFKANAazxW2ZJi7QXIdV37vfr DQ1KIbNclb4DK9761dFQfCMCXq78lNzVxU6fF/76AssVoazkFue0Hcu8vYdL8QFgsfap U0E/w5oG1uFMdpPiaT1RyXExqU+tm6Q3+lhfb/Die79BBMR76SLSfNLTGs7/FhLH0exO kduDeRrsjGdKGdCxcIoK4TIw00ZOB4sKLhB7eWBKIQ39xwRe7cztV2g3VDE3bsRemF+6 0RREMlvyic9ocE000Y+JemIJ5iNyzBTLtD8AMeIs23QkNe7HlMNzpII2PtAcLma8ITIn Kbsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=RlqGCD+QIqNpdOb4kQYmV525ccK9uqQNoimGI2gLOSs=; b=pEJpnOzF9KuWQuHsbCSG7habC9rVKPETyGYtWMF3tBgG2PAUwK50IRuTF4OoQuuOgk zKo33qaXn2H37uAfs11Iy5IjU763uYJY+uOboZVfPzFIdxstwfB5YK6Y9KCDkANzE+gD Si0ocjdwXUtc23kgV0L84Oh3jcwSLcZy/xQ1miicvz3NAkB1Hgq+8NAveglC0n/1W11S Mjjz5Nsmo8ag/4tHYJ0znn1PTcxXsMEyDPUhK+bnVU2FHwS9OD1tVOnUuB/Lx/1rhLaA nt5Uf41KPUg0j/7zULr8qZYJMoVyMhVOHLXkSdb1r+hiHPWY6EP9VYcTXnsBqBMsSJKB oEwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uo6X+JrONWrDQ0GBRZb9aPvczL3IKtIUl7/cDL9jrDUmZ+MIQ 8JKePd3c4663KQmPUX0oIM51O9Ql/lJQgrQj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywzJGwbSMNzrNchJ487vtcoxsILEfABRPNAMnl4GfOaQGJ/xPQ67POrraw5LB7d3jdXPmj6w== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a590:: with SMTP id o138mr5979947qke.174.1636638052390; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s7sm1609197qta.31.2021.11.11.05.40.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:40:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6txNkKtpNWmL3ORqLD80eKNT" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:40:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:40:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6txNkKtpNWmL3ORqLD80eKNT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/11/2021 5:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > This group discussed and agreed that the RSAB does NOT measure > consensus, precisely because it allows for a pocket veto.  I propose > not to revisit that aspect. I'm pretty sure that the group did not give the RSWG carte blanche to ignore community input, but if they are the only ones measuring consensus, it sounds like that's exactly what can happen. I don't recall interpreting the RSAB role as you do.  The RSAB gets to decide if process isn't followed, and that AFAICT includes deciding that community input was ignored or community consensus was not achieved. You've got the archives - could you point to where you're interpretation overrides mine? Mirja's process makes sense given that the RSAB is making the community call. Later, Mike > > Eliot > > On 11.11.21 10:48, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> 8) If substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will hand the >> document back to the RSWG. If substantial changes have been made, an >> additional RSWG call last should be consider by the RSWG chairs. When >> all comments have been addressed to the satisfaction of the RSWG, the >> chairs will re-request approval by the RSAB which may decide to issue >> additional community calls respectively. > --------------6txNkKtpNWmL3ORqLD80eKNT Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/11/2021 5:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
This group discussed and agreed that the RSAB does NOT measure consensus, precisely because it allows for a pocket veto.  I propose not to revisit that aspect.

I'm pretty sure that the group did not give the RSWG carte blanche to ignore community input, but if they are the only ones measuring consensus, it sounds like that's exactly what can happen.

I don't recall interpreting the RSAB role as you do.  The RSAB gets to decide if process isn't followed, and that AFAICT includes deciding that community input was ignored or community consensus was not achieved.

You've got the archives - could you point to where you're interpretation overrides mine?

Mirja's process makes sense given that the RSAB is making the community call.

Later, Mike



Eliot

On 11.11.21 10:48, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
8) If substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will hand the document back to the RSWG. If substantial changes have been made, an additional RSWG call last should be consider by the RSWG chairs. When all comments have been addressed to the satisfaction of the RSWG, the chairs will re-request approval by the RSAB which may decide to issue additional community calls respectively.


--------------6txNkKtpNWmL3ORqLD80eKNT-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 05:48:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F9A3A1022 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1LcbmehiBRzl for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92FBC3A101E for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HqjjR1hgCz6G9CK; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:48:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636638507; bh=X76xfHnHXXKPaBlnbXfCOTxteDREla61nk1ZfpSlK6U=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=X3WQlksmS1oj18BzBT795Ph8n6M4BvObI4BEvcpWLx2mBPu7WTpKXwkcwpAX/cRZV AdWq/l4+8f+T1Fu2oMvx4UTeejmlUfQ+tXeyXmJ34jabB2onGSklMVfxoaeRDZnKEh abfr2+t5V//BdqwTmpckd7yBHPQt3DaigrKfOGW4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HqjjQ4gf4z6G8nB; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:48:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:48:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:48:32 -0000 The wording here is a bit strange. One of the appeals grounds we already discussed is that the RSAB can be asked to rule that the RSWG chairs misjudged the RSWG rough consensus. So, to some degree, the RSAB clearly does end up judging rough consensus. Which suggests the same balance here. Let the RSWG do the job, and allow the RSAB to say "you got it wrong". (whether only in response to an appeal or as part of the RSAB review seems to be a minor fillip.) Yours, Joel On 11/11/2021 8:40 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/11/2021 5:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> This group discussed and agreed that the RSAB does NOT measure >> consensus, precisely because it allows for a pocket veto.  I propose >> not to revisit that aspect. > > I'm pretty sure that the group did not give the RSWG carte blanche to > ignore community input, but if they are the only ones measuring > consensus, it sounds like that's exactly what can happen. > > I don't recall interpreting the RSAB role as you do.  The RSAB gets to > decide if process isn't followed, and that AFAICT includes deciding that > community input was ignored or community consensus was not achieved. > > You've got the archives - could you point to where you're interpretation > overrides mine? > > Mirja's process makes sense given that the RSAB is making the community > call. > > Later, Mike > > >> >> Eliot >> >> On 11.11.21 10:48, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> 8) If substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will hand the >>> document back to the RSWG. If substantial changes have been made, an >>> additional RSWG call last should be consider by the RSWG chairs. When >>> all comments have been addressed to the satisfaction of the RSWG, the >>> chairs will re-request approval by the RSAB which may decide to issue >>> additional community calls respectively. >> > > From nobody Thu Nov 11 05:50:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF8D3A1026 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVa-i_CG4Teq for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A76DF3A1025 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id bq14so5836710qkb.1 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B+7InjSe58U8FRG8a26PJp8ae9Bp5qXW9QPN1dqMgxE=; b=uL1uJhHg/QRYtkb/um7NFtPy7XB/0p71X2Ez115tRvv+HjWzoo0S07PY4SbSMiY0lI mpXUtmYuMy/DaghimkzJw9Hz9hmX5JpmACEboqwix9a3LS6Reln8MA2CDcisXMOag/qB +STYyNE5+A9Im6JJb6njbWSf8dnqPFEWk/eb8kyYY1h9jwnmjQgCKTSTEZbws4AaoMce m0ltVlYKeKMeEn1da3ukxfzTM2x69B8WDc+83F7KeEXnpFDhdac87Lb6xDhV8G93AfKH qnYFIT8SSYPiJbEAeLW4eK98yeHC/17Q7Ksiu+/QWnhXLr2wp7McyH89eGoPY2SMuJoh E/NA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=B+7InjSe58U8FRG8a26PJp8ae9Bp5qXW9QPN1dqMgxE=; b=QW1dgyfnSAcZ3G8Sl6iP+xT7kGrmWHTeULcWLkHn7ROCp0WCxckVGVgphMMUX71ALD TxskEYi/FFaVlQa18LGQ2+PjdxJBZuFAxiA1guLicaFgbBWGINww5Aui6lLd39HXxLpt urCEF/a9SvLIXeMzka1v+H4p38EZWvf0ZJGZQS9vgVqNpJH99hP2TzpwolNFtd0uqNW3 eCPoj2lFl4A2LOQlWZjXIBq+9ll64Q8qJXaEAu+Ak18eBT9HDvdBEjBMrCGD5v8mTkSE 5EESejKsF9UB3Nn4i5PaB8SFsHs/raVLKeAyqTVWnXkg7ONj9/a50qsFdfWJFuMXOGwx wrsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YTLY1VSRFo3GFFHmjh9UwtAqV2WvFCWV0fmn7y5BOrkgEYeQO kbwqi8GZVuOdBA232pX62H3KE7vV74/tWgzT X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbFgab/TZYt3cUWMDDeIyll+NaOwzuZrCBwYgHTE0vFlJ/+ZEzDHj72ZpEpO86vFBcfO+itw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:6316:: with SMTP id x22mr5897276qkb.239.1636638600684; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r4sm1517620qtu.21.2021.11.11.05.49.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6fd2bc7a-af60-8641-1fba-d7fa327cc698@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:49:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <08c35327-c30f-4834-9efa-e47e6d9304da@joelhalpern.com> <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:50:07 -0000 On 11/10/2021 3:57 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Since design teams are covered by RFC2418, and we are citing RFC2418, > I don't think there is any need to specify it. Actually, I'm thinking we need to eliminate design teams in this process.  Design teams tend to be somewhat closed, and there isn't enough structure in the current document to prevent a design team from capturing the process, and removing what small protection we get from having an RSWG.  The RSWG will be fairly small, and there is no reason that design team discussions should not be captured on the RSWG communication process - to include minutes, emails, drafts, etc.  Yes, people will talk, but I'd really like to avoid cliques forming to decide things behind the scenes. > > However, that isn't what bothers me. It's the notion that the RSWG *as > currently specified by the draft* is expected to produce highly > technical documents like RFC7996bis would be. I fear that this needs > changes in the draft, starting with the first sentence of the Abstract. As I suggested oh so many months ago - this is sort of why we hire someone like the RSCE.  But I understand that discussion is a lost cause and I don't know how to fix the problem you identify in the previous sentence with the structure as currently described within the draft. If the RSWG can't do a "highly technical document", then I don't expect a design team of the RSWG to be able to do it either. > > I'm not against such changes but I don't see how to avoid them without > leaving a significant gap. > > Regards >    Brian Carpenter > > > On 11-Nov-21 02:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> Since a design team has no authority except to report to the RSWG, I do >> not see why we need to call that out.  I would hope and expect >> reasonable use of approaches to solve problems, as long as they result >> in decisions by the RSWG on the RSWG email list. >> >> In particular, since we have no means or desire to prevent people from >> talking to each other, design teams can and will happen. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/10/2021 7:58 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 11/11/2021, at 1:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry, I had not realized that the question had changed from small >>>> non-rfc directives ostensibly coming out of the RSWG. >>>> >>>> It seems that an update to RFC 7996 could reasonably come from the >>>> RSWG, through the process we have defined.  Whether there is also >>>> some other way it could be done, I lack the imagination to know. >>> >>> Does the draft need to explicitly empower the RSWG to create design >>> teams? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 11/10/2021 7:39 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>> Joel, >>>>>> On 10 Nov 2021, at 11:18 pm, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The RSWG could solicit advice, appoint a design team, review the >>>>>> design team results, and eventually publish a policy on how >>>>>> diagrams should be represented in SVG. With sufficient >>>>>> consultation during development, I could see that working. >>>>> This is roughly how most functional working groups operate. >>>>>> Neither of those result in any one line, or even one paragraph, >>>>>> RFCs. >>>>> Sure... but can we agree that the process that I quote above could >>>>> result in an RFC (on the Editorial stream) that updates/obsoletes >>>>> 79996? >>>>> -- >>>>> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>> >>> >> > From nobody Thu Nov 11 05:58:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23E83A1037 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:58:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7TW2etz3h5HM for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DC263A1033 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 05:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1ABDwBMb3422709 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:11 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636639091; bh=rCE+EWXqYANZzf4k1WB6zPopw6NRofaV5B5RHkRbveg=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=LxHpwrd44zY2j0m1lfVVOFtV3B1ws5q8JNO5SLkRo6izI78eZ9utmZIUooTual/QN pA47Z9+gb2ilY+T2Whi0pWNj2mlmIxE3Ra2gqhni3hfuuO548THWXDnaehipXW6BgH ipF1qQAsfGKgoM09uIly73Mc8Tfx+semULWK4Ouk= Message-ID: <19c5b3f1-4180-52ec-7f1a-e0efe6b837b0@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Y806mBKbh8nw00s5BxgTGdap" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:58:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Y806mBKbh8nw00s5BxgTGdap Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------remOwOa19c8moLd0V9V8kcFC"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <19c5b3f1-4180-52ec-7f1a-e0efe6b837b0@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: --------------remOwOa19c8moLd0V9V8kcFC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0BOPZJcbj0utbQ0LgsA5EHPU" --------------0BOPZJcbj0utbQ0LgsA5EHPU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpPbiAxMS4xMS4yMSAxNDo0OCwgSm9lbCBNLiBIYWxwZXJuIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBUaGUgd29y ZGluZyBoZXJlIGlzIGEgYml0IHN0cmFuZ2UuwqAgT25lIG9mIHRoZSBhcHBlYWxzIGdyb3Vu ZHMgd2UgDQo+IGFscmVhZHkgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIFJTQUIgY2FuIGJlIGFz a2VkIHRvIHJ1bGUgdGhhdCB0aGUgUlNXRyANCj4gY2hhaXJzIG1pc2p1ZGdlZCB0aGUgUlNX 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n13sm1982772qtx.68.2021.11.11.09.20.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:20:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:20:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Michael StJohns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:21:00 -0000 I apologize for the delay in providing the following.  This is the aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles.  I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their comments. # Principles for the RFC Editor Series The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the principles shall require additional approvals past that of the RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community consensus for such a change. ## Availability The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more than 35 years.  No change shall be made to the model which would introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust license<>. ## Accessibility There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. ## Publication Language The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative content language of an RFC shall remain English. ## Commonality of Purpose The RFC series is the general publication system for information related to the Internet, networking technology, and community discussions on those topics.  Neither an expansion nor contraction of that scope is desired. ## Diversity of Interests The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even eulogies [RFC2468].  And, more recently, Internet standards.  Each of these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of such expression we would probably be poorer for it. As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF publications. ## Breadth of Expression While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is expected to account for individual expression where possible. ## Archival Quality Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve both the information described and the documents themselves for the indefinite future.  To meet both publication and archival needs, the RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of the RFC Editor System functions. As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and LLC in addition to RSAB approval. ## World-class Publication As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is designed in part to enhance those characteristics.  Unfortunately, those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in speed of publication.  Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:31:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD3E3A0DC5 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:31:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnIxNZBcU_s8 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E66B03A0DBD for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id c3so7883144iob.6 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:31:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8fK5e1uhHm/hdGbyYZU285mZiGh+IxVBrXAqGIDVQCY=; b=FgzGUJcXp0HIPJichusyAh3oZDEoi6ymx8KPnCfjcG73HeExY0JC9RSS/Icxx622j6 l9KLNnqNC3VUs5ltEHBZgeXAfgwts/qYKiEI/EJirq7jwVIPqSrxyMtzOzuukG/r+Yc/ euoHHJhUxZQzVnuZyOxIME1cPR54k6tjjsSC0FMonyuERIe/npLpSx67/h1ZjzFDurmd xEUFSZnX2opEhzYdIxsBwTiKWsPI2PXeRk7qprGiqm/LVo8Ps73z3bSTSJACjUOpg3a1 mFtVCQZDtipZ/wX54YWGsIofROeOdy1b54ZeXxH24ZjL8d8M9SKqrqiLupqU/l5rPfxP JROA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8fK5e1uhHm/hdGbyYZU285mZiGh+IxVBrXAqGIDVQCY=; b=x+CPnxOoK9jd8A6ZYHNjAbyiSt1gy7Fzi3aRam3CqLPgyRmDi+a7Ispecy5BM6Koti tRLz2fQk3RdFH9hEXx4095e08uE4S5SSQD5NWkT53zaU5lSiqLVvHIzMMJHg7VqC12kI 8F8kkPFhrDUm//UmaBU38gyrZJonSDWD/U6nUSOlefDXylHQasNtDPAUYyKFPKahOqPZ XJrQJn9kouBR6JdSQkMxQsYMvJEF+WxBvty+8sNn8NeJL6w/49TY4eFk0Kco1sqFJu2K 95er8+zQgxufoQqdxhZ9iDBgctUm+gMC72otp5hiDKJYD15JXNFZ2JVGbMfhR+Mm8u+q kITw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533InjbUY4x7FFzhnW8VL0WxcHLvzoTb9Xaba9M8Q1gxQv48gC9P 2Y5rLwEKHm2Xmf1I2Ns0j+iQwpyEhMYYmRcjJ0jPxg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr4CXGaWPCiz+ndkOxDtfhfYcgTiZkGkLEQ5Vag704TA8twcpzwLUxusdgkRWyTYS3vk0d6liZny7EBLKBRFA= X-Received: by 2002:a02:734d:: with SMTP id a13mr6806436jae.113.1636651884937; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:31:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:30:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000391dc505d086b648" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:31:33 -0000 --000000000000391dc505d086b648 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Mike, Thanks for sending this. I agree with some of these principles and disagree with others, but as I indicated at the meeting, I don't think any of them should be especially encoded in this document. Rather, I think that our ordinary mechanisms are sufficient to examine and decide on any proposed changes in these areas. -Ekr On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:21 AM Michael StJohns wrote: > I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the > aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed > into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series > principles. I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates > their comments. > > > > > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series > > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. > > > ## Availability > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. > > ## Accessibility > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. > > ## Publication Language > > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. > > > ## Commonality of Purpose > > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. > > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. > > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. > > > ## Breadth of Expression > > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. > > ## Archival Quality > > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: > > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. > > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. > > > ## World-class Publication > > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000391dc505d086b648 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mike,

Thanks for sending = this. I agree with some of these principles and disagree with others,
=
but as I indicated at the meeting, I don't think any of them shoul= d be especially encoded
in this document. Rather, I think that ou= r ordinary mechanisms are sufficient to examine
and decide on any= proposed changes in these areas.

-Ekr


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:21 AM Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:
I apologize for the d= elay in providing the following.=C2=A0 This is the
aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed <= br> into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series
principles.=C2=A0 I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorpo= rates
their comments.




# Principles for the RFC Editor Series

The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of
documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve.
Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the
principles shall require additional approvals past that of the
RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and
such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community
consensus for such a change.


## Availability

The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more
than 35 years.=C2=A0 No change shall be made to the model which would
introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents.
Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust
license<<REF:
https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-= legal-provisions/>>.

## Accessibility

There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible
as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing
impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall
require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of
the RSAB.

## Publication Language

The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English.
No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of
translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative
content language of an RFC shall remain English.


## Commonality of Purpose

The RFC series is the general publication system for information
related to the Internet, networking technology, and community
discussions on those topics.=C2=A0 Neither an expansion nor contraction of<= br> that scope is desired.


## Diversity of Interests

The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas,
research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even
eulogies [RFC2468].=C2=A0 And, more recently, Internet standards.=C2=A0 Eac= h of
these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history
of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of
such expression we would probably be poorer for it.

As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that
non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to
maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these
streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB,
LLC Board, and with strong community consensus.

The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future
solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF
publications.


## Breadth of Expression

While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is
expected to account for individual expression where possible.

## Archival Quality

Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]:

The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services
for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles
being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve
both the information described and the documents themselves for the
indefinite future.=C2=A0 To meet both publication and archival needs, the RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the
publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while
acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of
the RFC Editor System functions.

As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive
policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and
LLC in addition to RSAB approval.


## World-class Publication

As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are
key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is
designed in part to enhance those characteristics.=C2=A0 Unfortunately,
those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in
speed of publication.=C2=A0 Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the
approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB.

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000391dc505d086b648-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:38:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EA63A0DC9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:38:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZGbfsATOdyXs for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D31D43A0DC5 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hqpq72x1nz1ntwj; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:38:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1636652323; bh=HvaXdY34C7ptAZoIT1BBGbOg3MQjONV+7ltqCohjWOw=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=SRKizK/yb0iVDPgMNnb2m6KLQ/hdcyAhV7+vf2Ph/HlMGstSf5iF2UkhZeYrD+9Do khG8+/WnSpl2NEtTmRdCsnk90o4rrdA+vWZiu4ClpjDf6suePcH2eIdinluaEY/KI8 dYSl/tHCwtNFBeAQ5w7xmdwRosjWmHGH8AAnKBCI= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hqpq605p3z1nsTj; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:38:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8e10f34c-9844-5d2d-5945-1c8339e150cb@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:38:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:38:49 -0000 This seems to me to be a good list of points to include in the RFC so as to capture our communal goals. Yours, Joel On 11/11/2021 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > I apologize for the delay in providing the following.  This is the > aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed > into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series > principles.  I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates > their comments. > > > > > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series > > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. > > > ## Availability > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years.  No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. > > ## Accessibility > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. > > ## Publication Language > > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. > > > ## Commonality of Purpose > > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics.  Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468].  And, more recently, Internet standards.  Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. > > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. > > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. > > > ## Breadth of Expression > > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. > > ## Archival Quality > > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: > > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future.  To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. > > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. > > > ## World-class Publication > > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics.  Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication.  Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. > From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:40:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF30C3A0DC9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tznxDqVtyafE for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 230483A0CAB for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id x10so7891079ioj.9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=7+I4SKUJGO1IjT6qsMizjchmygOiEleTOE2QwSkIuVM=; b=5tt+rUNw2+2qJnBjBc/paRg3sDQszEWKim3M8sWdNRNisY6CuMGv57aZGuyYO/eoua WWfE+rg8dGJPhVcRBhBp35yWNSDW9G1mf1wN7IEwtUHY/tePFMtdYolPljOkzavq4SSP H8NmQ/bCqZRYoiaOnRsZDC1ATrD/Ydq5zixzD8sQ9VeFfJ1HdiiDbVItSNnecAjO0dhJ jqVEuMYp3D+lrVGhqrCi9YiGVg83sf5Ya2LypVDgbSGntsVRR1misgBkQfi4FmsS6Ldg rK0RRQQSpRWRSTWltp+oIGPhFkcnqSxiw9jE/mgb4YediX0bo3kEQF2wNkNlSZ+GovM0 f6+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=7+I4SKUJGO1IjT6qsMizjchmygOiEleTOE2QwSkIuVM=; b=O6HpYtBoaj6/LgyEuhqieHExRddSrL7RqTzhqKiFmnNApQ+Wvku6ggbEEb0Jc9JxwK e2ISqDczrFEdcwW1Q7/SpFVBGcUFrnB2VK8Y09KWuwSBdBFDNy+c0YdC6fzxgHV0O0Jo flksA6sDrGWFzBp/kmu1UiL85Ap4wbkIvPwpzlpjwPH/hwf4Rbk6l6mRBBmaVVXC2oX3 gQzHafB/aXLurC4grnQVgPxUFva5ekzeg3qV0+g+LcrFy6v0ofib2ADGDH27JVHlXgzW av2EXoE31YLkju0Nn0CQN8kuva+q0Xn82jtEmxVI4mqHOjKOm7vrGvWVWHvhfwst8Klt roVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531s/w1jpIdhaYY3Gsa6CgYIW/lY8OrTFojzpyxBmP/pLvN6CfGU t6dBRLZid1b+F2LCELTisA/tOFCgH31i5yuK X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRYyIqB7Zq0kYHmAtiAnCDs7ylOe8YQ40aLvNm3o7FsHcIs0w1zMsXsC15vTbQOl5zo9pmNg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3156:: with SMTP id m22mr6024637ioy.19.1636652407909; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (dynamic-acs-24-154-121-237.zoominternet.net. [24.154.121.237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x15sm1928003iob.8.2021.11.11.09.40.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:40:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Brian Rosen In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:40:06 -0500 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:40:15 -0000 Mike Thanks for this. Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how = many of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so = proscriptive in this document 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the = detail What do you think? Brian > On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the = aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed = into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. = I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their = comments. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >=20 > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. >=20 >=20 > ## Availability >=20 > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >=20 > ## Accessibility >=20 > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. >=20 > ## Publication Language >=20 > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. >=20 >=20 > ## Commonality of Purpose >=20 > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. >=20 >=20 > ## Diversity of Interests >=20 > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on = networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >=20 > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >=20 > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. >=20 >=20 > ## Breadth of Expression >=20 > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. >=20 > ## Archival Quality >=20 > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >=20 > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. >=20 > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >=20 >=20 > ## World-class Publication >=20 > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:44:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99A13A0DCE for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:44:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Brc9bdqubLO for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 558673A0DD6 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id e144so7929120iof.3 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kEW9sYnH+ALrzXxcrqjBnXreQKO2R34siKmMNsUt+CI=; b=IVlTG0b3iDZKQBs0Rv7eEl7ONr21N9qKKnMm5ytflI6fFx/Tj5enGy7F8DffU4gBU6 B4w8GKehAL2v2z2KFENEmmUugb1fZIv8AmVpEt6eWx6iVjYqAffK6rp01lfwI0kZr4RB 76VBVirjntOre00LkjXdfF3mtdkrYTr0D+bP/jF8UJ3aWrGJrz93nxz0ZZjSIyJTR+1R cyNC23q+xALk/la/GLCMBMcYiom+HRWK8fPmzzB6WuAEC8eU3fDsmV7H/RACveRpdmZf KXzLdY8Mzi527xaK2L7MoaJr6LPZm0vVjbznRfbkfo9CfkGsI9O9qKHvnRK6LKE1BtgY xNKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kEW9sYnH+ALrzXxcrqjBnXreQKO2R34siKmMNsUt+CI=; b=gjMod3yzsp7Pk9Ds1wmdhDfpDp+ZUqTiwlFkBd3iXaIq4tWtnI4C+GBDhSzSmA2IHu 2+ZwH976QPvJi3VfegPqjYeFZKG99X9Zjfm1es8sovmvs8ZC9UuSLHy44XpEGgQ7w2Or 4N60MnZ8tiiv2OW/MYJe8ikMUMBiSwyyZS71eeXcfB9YCnt3NK/sMLKhyqMsqXe1gzPk 2Lh1z0BOg7LuKQBmw5GdmoyAVocEO0WUnIFKkAdw8AHqprAaQUeLpk6p85gdpcQqgQEs nu7tqw2zOqpnVVjW8ioMLQwnWCD8g8eFuttfEHswRlTGTkwXkN4uMIUkpn95zMy/LjnG 7/GA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533etfJ4MSy1b4tUFIYn3jlnAJRJ2QE9SF7pxZ3vx/UQBthBRI0r Y3QqM5LUmtA0U60xPGLCRvm0G50ekFuB4KJXC2bJysnaeQE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwGoE3hFZ1yabmYcLBOiN1/cOgBiuwV7G6h+K/yUs0ogAyIwlTXkTK9VUy3JGBg0mFOJaXHmQL1LA7FrUYP3EU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b4cc:: with SMTP id d195mr5992364iof.0.1636652645927; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:44:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> In-Reply-To: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian Rosen Cc: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000094e61f05d086e3fb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:44:13 -0000 --00000000000094e61f05d086e3fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I said at the meeting, I believe the current text is sufficient and that attempting to converge on these principles will be very expensive -Ekr On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:40 AM Brian Rosen wrote: > Mike > > Thanks for this. > > Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how many > of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. > > Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: > 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so pros= criptive > in this document > 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the > detail > > What do you think? > > Brian > > > On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns > wrote: > > > > I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the > aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed int= o > a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. I've > passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their comments. > > > > > > > > > > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series > > > > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > > consensus for such a change. > > > > > > ## Availability > > > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > > than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would > > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > > license< > https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. > > > > ## Accessibility > > > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > > the RSAB. > > > > ## Publication Language > > > > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > > content language of an RFC shall remain English. > > > > > > ## Commonality of Purpose > > > > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > > that scope is desired. > > > > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > > > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking= . > > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. > > > > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. > > > > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > > publications. > > > > > > ## Breadth of Expression > > > > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > > expected to account for individual expression where possible. > > > > ## Archival Quality > > > > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: > > > > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > > the RFC Editor System functions. > > > > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/= or > > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. > > > > > > ## World-class Publication > > > > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000094e61f05d086e3fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As I said at the meeting, I believe the current text = is sufficient and that attempting to converge on these principles will be v= ery expensive

-Ekr


On Thu, Nov 1= 1, 2021 at 9:40 AM Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
Mike

Thanks for this.

Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how many o= f us think we need something a lot like this in our document.

Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include:
1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so proscr= iptive in this document
2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the deta= il

What do you think?

Brian

> On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrot= e:
>
> I apologize for the delay in providing the following.=C2=A0 This is th= e aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed= into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles.= =C2=A0 I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their= comments.
>
>
>
>
> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series
>
> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of
> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve.
> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the
> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the
> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and
> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change.
>
>
> ## Availability
>
> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more=
> than 35 years.=C2=A0 No change shall be made to the model which would<= br> > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust
> license<<REF:
> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/tr= ust-legal-provisions/>>.
>
> ## Accessibility
>
> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible=
> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing
> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of<= br> > the RSAB.
>
> ## Publication Language
>
> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English.<= br> > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of
> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English.
>
>
> ## Commonality of Purpose
>
> The RFC series is the general publication system for information
> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community
> discussions on those topics.=C2=A0 Neither an expansion nor contractio= n of
> that scope is desired.
>
>
> ## Diversity of Interests
>
> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even
> eulogies [RFC2468].=C2=A0 And, more recently, Internet standards.=C2= =A0 Each of
> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history<= br> > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networkin= g.
> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it.
>
> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that<= br> > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these
> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB,=
> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus.
>
> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF
> publications.
>
>
> ## Breadth of Expression
>
> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is
> expected to account for individual expression where possible.
>
> ## Archival Quality
>
> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]:
>
> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services<= br> > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles<= br> > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future.=C2=A0 To meet both publication and archival needs, = the
> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the
> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions.
>
> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive
> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and= /or
> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval.
>
>
> ## World-class Publication
>
> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is
> designed in part to enhance those characteristics.=C2=A0 Unfortunately= ,
> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication.=C2=A0 Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at t= he
> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the
> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future= @iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut= ure

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000094e61f05d086e3fb-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:49:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890F03A0DD5 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:49:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zvcy-lI9Irkr for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C9033A0DD3 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1ABHnV4J005600; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:31 GMT Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAF44607D; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B933C4604B; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.119]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1ABHnPSp000457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:26 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Michael StJohns'" , References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:25 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcqwuOszg Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.119 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26524.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--8.164-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--8.164-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26524.001 X-TMASE-Result: 10--8.164400-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO3xIbpQ8BhdbI61Z+HJnvsOfePYk/N+W1grhioeAJKilYn8 w9PbaSGJIY8W3qOTcDSc6uj67xOkhhS4d2mjGHUJmOFnGEL0JOOL5MCc+du22H0mu4EXeD9Gac2 t/JoXOgD6CTrJ/RQ8aJ09pgURDiYVaaGs6XTeoZ+KR0fcRBoRNVIOc8QjxyVtEcWQUCNHW2ehAq HLqD5Ggc1BWrshJK3bXr6ShcUgPsNId3l8L6FwhPRUId35VCIeT5ysQDj6eFkCcQw/2siUZkKPQ Fc/fMN/1sS0B7F6uXIfQuFo5cgFFETKfKq8HqzdlVHM/F6YkvRM8zV+hbhmA8gV4AkwsqFnZ4Ys L3LbKzHkerFxK/XuuOSRbkfplPI4qcMNUvd1PQ8dxBAG5/hkW2P/IYHnyZ+wsLigDA/FpvXviD4 z8ehmeCcU9vuTnCWKxPnYyB4MOYYznw+i+raCo02Skm4RdDKBqb3/o5s+OcOJYx97rJn/3LiPFg CtDYg7jUKHuZS3Ko+nAbRNzr+DzYcL1fgO7YvztT4jIeGRd/WuP3jhainBquWR07sSEnVAV9dz6 47+et9ThZMUdrRJHGE/8apJ22BKnylG/Y6nzPTVr2dC6ax+aggnaupNy5h2OL/91ndgjbnNN8Ev tNwXeOjRyartA4oIRa0NB1EbxNYf0Lk5wIzieuT02pOa52nUwrBekK2Lf7RojAWuSDNe9jHzsSN v6H/4wyEPlTvajOdfGh9gMHDG0ad6neov7x7QJaPnAqeySUpy5Mi8Nd3XCkTqq9Xa45y59hzzbH h82h50905ctlpYH4FaJRII0UbsA4Ne3EO9MGKeAiCmPx4NwCs3zPQeiEbe+gtHj7OwNO3Ix3Icp 6zuW2mqdZZ2uPWtffILC5K/pOwdFoZ9yvYkpp8bPlXS3E5I X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:49:40 -0000 Thanks Mike, I find these to useful foundations. On the whole I might take them as = well-known, but I think that future-proofing the discussions by setting = out this text is helpful. It will, of course, disturb Brian and Eliot if we have to spend time on = this discussion now, but it seems to me that if we don't have agreement = on these points (the major points, not the wordsmithing) then we have an = elephant in the room with us. Failing to address that elephant now would = be gross neglect. Since I agree with this text, I find it hard to understand which points = someone might disagree with. It would be helpful that if someone is made = uncomfortable by this text, they could at least flag the high level what = their concerns are so I can see the scale of the disagreement. I do understand that some might say, "There is no need to include this = material," but this comes back to my first point, and putting in writing = something you don't consider necessary is not immediately harmful. Cheers, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Michael = StJohns Sent: 11 November 2021 17:21 To: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the=20 aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed=20 into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series=20 principles. I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates=20 their comments. # Principles for the RFC Editor Series The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the principles shall require additional approvals past that of the RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community consensus for such a change. ## Availability The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust license<>. ## Accessibility There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. ## Publication Language The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative content language of an RFC shall remain English. ## Commonality of Purpose The RFC series is the general publication system for information related to the Internet, networking technology, and community discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of that scope is desired. ## Diversity of Interests The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of such expression we would probably be poorer for it. As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF publications. ## Breadth of Expression While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is expected to account for individual expression where possible. ## Archival Quality Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve both the information described and the documents themselves for the indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of the RFC Editor System functions. As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and LLC in addition to RSAB approval. ## World-class Publication As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 09:54:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587903A0DE0 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:54:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMv77hnccly5 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72EC3A0DD9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 09:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hqq9R1dLnz2xG4; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:54:35 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:54:34 +0100 Cc: Brian Rosen , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Michael StJohns Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:54:42 -0000 On 11. Nov 2021, at 18:43, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > attempting to converge on these principles will be very expensive =E2=80=A6 is a good summary of why I=E2=80=99m so uncomfortable with = what is going on here. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 11 10:22:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570323A053E for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmIIMMYwtBBw for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6B9D3A048D for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mlEiR-0000QM-RE; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:22:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:22:21 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <7CCE2F129A56C8E593923D06@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:22:38 -0000 --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 09:30 -0800 Eric Rescorla wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for sending this. I agree with some of these principles > and disagree with others, > but as I indicated at the meeting, I don't think any of them > should be especially encoded > in this document. Rather, I think that our ordinary mechanisms > are sufficient to examine > and decide on any proposed changes in these areas. Eric, I somewhat disagree. I thing the largest two problems facing this group since it started, and the ones that has spawned the most controversies, have been "what problem(s) are we trying to solve" and "what are we willing to give up to make various solutions work". The current draft is a good statement of roles, details, and procedures going forward, but does not appear to address either question. I think that not holding up the document until we can reach consensus on a clear statement of either of those topics is the right decision. However, Mike's statement of principles responds to the easier question of "what is this all about historically and for the long term". By helping to differentiate between all of the pragmatic operational and procedural decisions we have made from those fundamental principles, it would, IMO, make the overall document much stronger and the prospects for the future much brighter. And, unless I'm sadly mistaken, his draft does not say anything to which we have not at least tacitly agreed several times. Looked a differently, I think our ordinary mechanisms should be more than adequate to deal with ordinary issues and problems. With some flexibility and good sense added in, they should be adequate to deal with short-term and narrow-scope problems that we have not anticipated as well. But proposed changes that would affect those principles are anything but ordinary and should get special scrutiny. In that regard, I am actually less concerned about the extraordinary approval rules in Mike's draft than I am to provide the RSWG some good guidance that a change that affects these things is not ordinary but is A Big Deal. To the degree that works, so will the ordinary process. If it sometime does not, those rules are an important safeguard. best, john From nobody Thu Nov 11 10:30:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1143A0819 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:30:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gr-wHR1sepsi for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 141DE3A0814 for ; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:30:26 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1ABIJwpC010890; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:30:08 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3c82mjb9md-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:30:08 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:17:19 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:17:19 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed Thread-Index: AQHX1yCDUqJ2pZ6ScEGnQIUSBa1DCKv+6UyA//+5KwA= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:17:19 +0000 Message-ID: <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21110701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9B7A60ADCEDC479596A316A77A0B7794akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-11_06:2021-11-11, 2021-11-11 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=850 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111110097 X-Proofpoint-GUID: pdNJlYBkMGjA4QWES5153TMAYTtDZy2i X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: pdNJlYBkMGjA4QWES5153TMAYTtDZy2i X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-11_06,2021-11-11_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=812 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111110098 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:30:33 -0000 --_000_9B7A60ADCEDC479596A316A77A0B7794akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gW5qdfyWidjL for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 157CD3A081B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mlEuC-0000R3-C0; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:34:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:34:29 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <0CE210370624A79A10519CDE@PSB> In-Reply-To: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:34:45 -0000 Brian, In case it was not clear from the response I just sent to ekr, I think what this documents says is at least close to right and is at about the right level of detail. I think it also addresses (by working around) some issues that have come in and out of the discussions but that have never turned into tickets because no one could figure out how to get to text on which there was a significant chance we could reach consensus. As to "a whole lot smaller", I think the option of a version with even more detail and at least somewhat more clarity should be considered as a possibility too and would be happy to provide suggestions :-). But my guess, today, without either of those hypothetical shorter or longer texts in front of us, is that Mike's proposal has the balance about right. And, FWIW, I agree with Adrian: of we are not largely in agreement about these principles (wordsmithing aside), then there is a mean-tempered elephant in the room. I'd go a step further and suggest that the presence of such an elephant would suggest that the current document, rather than representing actual consensus, represents a papering-over of hard issues and a certain amount of the sort of general exhaustion that interferes with clear thinking and actual agreement. best, john --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 12:40 -0500 Brian Rosen wrote: > Mike > > Thanks for this. > > Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to > understand how many of us think we need something a lot like > this in our document. > > Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: > 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don't think we should be so > proscriptive in this document 2. Something a whole lot smaller > that gets at the idea but without the detail > > What do you think? From nobody Thu Nov 11 10:37:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78273A0820 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qeg-tJ6xENfZ for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B0A73A0821 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id r8so8104848iog.7 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pi5kcOrr6N0Dg5UmfxqEItCRh6Ees2zy3BZnQ5UFVts=; b=fHDPZmGMBGdHnmon8OD82KXZ7+m1QAwk3YkMkTG/2zVvn6YNk/+Agj8dSlmsAvbQFs lD9ke7PVb1rwb6/gKLZ6Irlmtv1nijjsUMSSG6LlUsO9P9YfhWw/F4FZwiDfAyLd1SmR mQXE7/gSjd8G0NOUGCK3rSKK+6dg7Us6G8xTY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pi5kcOrr6N0Dg5UmfxqEItCRh6Ees2zy3BZnQ5UFVts=; b=ilEJEAj4cTHc3Alm3mkEjVIsbUOjArK/EWto2NyMe2fY5yJQ/+s4Ol5AvhCkOQ87Gk 2owfPJdpGHVm4EzILmwEbcZ1dPRLCfJ00NX9rrJXg/H9c6gRDJ9xcmjrY7fQqH/Nr2OM DSvFH1hciFWbM4uQo48nckqKOR/TNs4Jnp3xwpXnpEBTBMkcLHvOzEgAoUiexC11IrIk QOhBjx70Ba4jjq/U6AkIlodSOj+ECvuoj0zlLwUC2pMC2OTdRQ526T2IG5fhIQpeQgng 3jaGZTEAciCgf3GPsUT2KsxQGv9lTnSTBQRvmhRBu/SVG0ZGdr5/jletQA1c7yiDIxUQ NMHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OXRUcrB9QUHJf9IvHj2ZPhDOMVDi0J8E8dyVxv3hGzpgADsAh 9AHRDvfFoxKrLmYqiH0O+UUOww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJgtVfccSYm8vlxk3knTxDy4+SHMtIG6rinRs4WRziS5P8jue7/eS5VzKAPa407a6ECpJ9eQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:850b:: with SMTP id q11mr6039134ion.204.1636655813004; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l1sm1950070ioj.29.2021.11.11.10.36.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:36:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:36:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:37:00 -0000 On 11/11/21 11:17 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > *>* I don't think any of them should be especially encoded > > in this document. Rather, I think that our ordinary mechanisms are > sufficient to examine > > and decide on any proposed changes in these areas. > > I strongly agree with this.  As in “this should not be written into this > document and our existing mechanisms suffice.”  Name of the predecessor > documents had this kind of thing. s/Name/None/ :-) I said the same thing in the meeting yesterday. What is driving the perceived need for a statement of RFC principles right now? Why do folks feel these need to be encoded into v3 of the RFC Editor Model when they were not encoded into v1 or v2? What problems will this solve? Is it worth the cost of trying to get consensus on principles now or should this be something that the RSWG/RSAB can debate once they're in place? Peter From nobody Thu Nov 11 11:03:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178BA3A0A10 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:03:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0XjH7J75jWKq for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBA0F3A0A84 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id k1so6796063ilo.7 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=84pNLov7MCq8AepZlA7C4d8nLUSOzfyoU8aYknEF4Kg=; b=V7Mv6EL7+CZAnOBArXun+UxU0WVWXRoT7dJ6NdYpbsWHJd0ey79OPviKfgOHqUoY0V J/BqW+X2iQ8oP7AQM0qwYetKEI2RT3SeAaVrlLFy07QZnyNGtRToLIkUtAmtRg2aXMMO dPBsBtxQwVp7QOWYqqf3z+O/HsDxNHrzMxxEo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=84pNLov7MCq8AepZlA7C4d8nLUSOzfyoU8aYknEF4Kg=; b=cVBj/JKk99wFrUhb26uB4G13j0MNwEaHW4wDGzcOJA1i1c1V4Saejy5EN1noApLaPK 5PX5GMMOsIw/dZWwsAGM4CZYDSeIX4fPVnUE07s14BynPvGmpAHV2FfXA5cpi8I5oZtz z+2h4J94rQWWVeIEN8XfRnhHzPVIzQKcxHQr2YEyxP9gJBXXRozjTesnVNxP0fFW9dKa 2nqAyGM4QFVhtD6y6hWv98tP3u4PVUTgq68ycuHc/Q93F4Ye13EkrmXUFI14leqj21km aqc9yOKaxaT3Nko1V6MM/uIe+zy1BdnLtRGEdojlqDCJV5WPnrTChVH1KtMPhDBwPZSi AA/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wuvdzXI7wVDjldQHjDug+Z+QfFst/xqaEG13q5f4BVWNwhTbb HLEAzzRd5pzt/Mk3I+ZlqYhMsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTEyc6si6flOpNwaU/EEU25/HbcP3lSZ01LfKR70Luzcdjnt7LoYARkqiisMTqb4Derw521g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:df1:: with SMTP id m17mr5467753ilj.125.1636657376532; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w12sm2733192ilu.45.2021.11.11.11.02.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:02:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:02:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:03:04 -0000 Jay, what say you? On 11/10/21 8:39 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Actually, just to warp this up entirely then. So we maybe then even need to say less and strike the existing sentence about performance targets as well? > > The full paragraph is: > > "The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has responsibility for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The IETF LLC is empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a committee to complete these activities.” > > > >> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:36, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> >> Okay, thanks for confirming. >> >>> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:34, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: >>>> I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance >>>> targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is going to >>>> change in ways we don’t yet properly understand in the new model. >>> >>> This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC model was their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to the extent possible - not add those to the set of things this group needs to concern itself with. >>> >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > From nobody Thu Nov 11 11:05:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725F83A0B19; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:05:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:05:46 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <1CEF56C7-902B-4FAF-93DB-23E6F9D7FD2C@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_86DB06D3-B1B0-4599-B0C1-9C00494ED959" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:05:45 -0800 In-reply-to: <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-11_06:2021-11-11, 2021-11-11 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:05:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_86DB06D3-B1B0-4599-B0C1-9C00494ED959 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I agree with Peter and Ekr here that this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a = list that belongs in this document. I think the list is quite interesting as a set of things to discuss and = agree upon within the new RSWG/RSAB bodies, and contains items that the = IAB and IESG would be willing to help chime in on. However, this list = doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be central to the definition of how the RFC = editor model functions as a construct. If we believe that the model = that=E2=80=99s being defined is the right model, we should trust that it = can define the right guidelines for its operations. If we are concerned = that the new model will =E2=80=9Cgo rogue=E2=80=9D, then the most that = should be said here is that the new bodies should agree on a set of = long-term principles as their first task upon formation. (I also think = the current text in the document is sufficient, to be clear). Best, Tommy > On Nov 11, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/11/21 11:17 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> *>* I don't think any of them should be especially encoded >> in this document. Rather, I think that our ordinary mechanisms are = sufficient to examine >> and decide on any proposed changes in these areas. >> I strongly agree with this. As in =E2=80=9Cthis should not be = written into this document and our existing mechanisms suffice.=E2=80=9D = Name of the predecessor documents had this kind of thing. >=20 > s/Name/None/ :-) >=20 > I said the same thing in the meeting yesterday. What is driving the = perceived need for a statement of RFC principles right now? Why do folks = feel these need to be encoded into v3 of the RFC Editor Model when they = were not encoded into v1 or v2? What problems will this solve? Is it = worth the cost of trying to get consensus on principles now or should = this be something that the RSWG/RSAB can debate once they're in place? >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_86DB06D3-B1B0-4599-B0C1-9C00494ED959 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = agree with Peter and Ekr here that this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a list = that belongs in this document.

I think the list is quite interesting = as a set of things to discuss and agree upon within the new RSWG/RSAB = bodies, and contains items that the IAB and IESG would be willing to = help chime in on. However, this list doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be central = to the definition of how the RFC editor model functions as a construct. = If we believe that the model that=E2=80=99s being defined is the right = model, we should trust that it can define the right guidelines for its = operations. If we are concerned that the new model will =E2=80=9Cgo = rogue=E2=80=9D, then the most that should be said here is that the new = bodies should agree on a set of long-term principles as their first task = upon formation. (I also think the current text in the document is = sufficient, to be clear).

Best,
Tommy

On Nov 11, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>= wrote:

On 11/11/21 11:17 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
*>* I don't think any = of them should be especially encoded
in this document. = Rather, I think that our ordinary mechanisms are sufficient to = examine
and decide on any proposed changes in these = areas.
I strongly agree with this.  As in =E2=80=9Cthis= should not be written into this document and our existing mechanisms = suffice.=E2=80=9D  Name of the predecessor documents had this kind = of thing.

s/Name/None/ :-)

I said the same thing in the meeting = yesterday. What is driving the perceived need for a statement of RFC = principles right now? Why do folks feel these need to be encoded into v3 = of the RFC Editor Model when they were not encoded into v1 or v2? What = problems will this solve? Is it worth the cost of trying to get = consensus on principles now or should this be something that the = RSWG/RSAB can debate once they're in place?

Peter

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

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[76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t188sm2241934iof.5.2021.11.11.11.16.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:16:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:16:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind References: <8A6849A0-A9EC-4CEB-8579-68AB72EC0824@ietf.org> <0438df58-afda-15bf-4cf1-6bcc5e27e0bf@gmail.com> <5392ac05-3245-c685-3396-07d205b70699@mozilla.com> <96a6bd3c-4a2f-d3a9-e246-f06ecdc36184@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <96a6bd3c-4a2f-d3a9-e246-f06ecdc36184@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue #111: selection committees X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:16:50 -0000 On 11/10/21 12:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 10-Nov-21 22:18, Jay Daley wrote: >> >> >>> On 10/11/2021, at 11:11 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/29/21 7:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> On 30-Oct-21 12:44, Jay Daley wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 30/10/2021, at 11:49 AM, Brian E Carpenter >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30-Oct-21 09:23, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>>>> Eliot indicated that I should also bring issue #111 as a separate >>>>>>> discussion issue to the list. Here it is: >>>>>>> We have two selection committees established by the LLC in the >>>>>>> draft - one for the RPC vendor and one for the RSCE. >>>>>>> For the RPC vendor one we say: >>>>>>>         The IETF LLC establishes a selection committee, which will > consist >>>>>>>         of the IETF Executive Director and other members selected >>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>         IETF LLC in consultation with the stream managers. >>>>>>> For the RSCE one we say: >>>>>>>      The IETF LLC will form a selection committee, including >>>>>>> members from >>>>>>>      the community, that will be responsible for making a >>>>>>> recommendation >>>>>>>      to the IETF LLC for the RSCE role. >>>>>>> There are two differences here 1) naming the Executive director >>>>>>> explicitly as a member and 2) consultation with the stream managers. >>>>>>> Just checking if we think these differences are intentional? And >>>>>>> if so, why? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the ED should be mentioned in neither or both. Jay might >>>>>> comment, but >>>>>> it seems unnecessary to mention the ED at all, since it's the LLC >>>>>> that >>>>>> forms the committee and so can decide whether the ED is in each >>>>>> commitee. >>>>> >>>>> Yes either or both, no preference. >>>>>> >>>>>> The other difference is significant. I think having the stream >>>>>> managers in >>>>>> the loop is essential for the RPC case, >>>>> >>>>> I agree. >>>>> >>>>>> and having the community in general >>>>>> in the loop is appropriate for the RSCE. >>>>> >>>>> My overriding preference here is to have people on this committee >>>>> who understand the role being appointed to, not people chosen >>>>> because they are >>>> representatives of one group or another. >>>> Definitely, but for both committees the LLC gets to choose. I was >>>> just tilting the balance slightly for the RSCE case, but that >>>> doesn't mean you'd choose randoms. >>> >>>  From my perspective as document editor, I'd say the difference was >>> not intentional, but was a matter of simple divergence. I agree that >>> we want to follow the same or a similar process for both selection >>> committees. The RSCE text was written later and I think is more >>> reflective of list discussion, so personally I'd be fine with copying >>> that over for the description of the RPC vendor selection committee >>> as well. >> >> Sorry but the difference in composition should stay as those are the >> relevant compositions for the two different contracts. Fine by me. > I think this shows that (in general, not just on this point) we are well > into the territory of over-specifying details. If both said simply "The > IETF LLC establishes a selection committee" we'd be fine. As I recall, people wanted some mention of community involvement, which is why we ended up with the text we have. Peter From nobody Thu Nov 11 11:32:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B193A0C77; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIGk3S4iaF9q; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EFE13A0C75; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mlFnh-0000Ua-El; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:31:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:31:50 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre , "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Michael StJohns cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:32:07 -0000 --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:36 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/11/21 11:17 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> *>* I don't think any of them should be especially encoded >>=20 >> in this document. Rather, I think that our ordinary >> mechanisms are sufficient to examine >>=20 >> and decide on any proposed changes in these areas. >>=20 >> I strongly agree with this.=C2=A0 As in "this should not be >> written into this document and our existing mechanisms >> suffice." =C2=A0Name of the predecessor documents had this >> kind of thing. >=20 > s/Name/None/ :-) >=20 > I said the same thing in the meeting yesterday. What is > driving the perceived need for a statement of RFC principles > right now? Why do folks feel these need to be encoded into v3 > of the RFC Editor Model when they were not encoded into v1 or > v2? What problems will this solve? Is it worth the cost of > trying to get consensus on principles now or should this be > something that the RSWG/RSAB can debate once they're in place? I promised myself I was through posting for today but, since, as Peter notes, this came up yesterday and now today... Although I'm obviously not convinced, there may be sound arguments for leaving this material out, but "none of the predecessor documents included such statements" does not appear to me to be one of them. Those documents were all written as a combination of explanations to the community of how things worked and what the pieces were and how they fit together, plus some fine-tuning to adjust for changes in the surrounding structures. They described a system that had worked, and was perceived as having worked rather well, for, as RFC 8700 points out, around a half-century. That system was built around the idea of a strong and skilled "editor" (sometimes a couple of people, not just one) who felt responsible for both principles and continuity _and_ who had near-absolute authority. Those documents did not explicitly identify principles because there was no need to do so. A really bad choice of RFC Editor/RSE could have been fatal to that sort of system but, through what I think was a combination of talent and luck, we never had one of those but, instead, got highly skilled and committed people with no inclinations toward risky and radical changes. Now we are going down a different path, one that replaces the central role and authority of the RFC [Series] Editor with a rather complicated committee and decision structure. While I agree with the implicit assumption that we should make decisions and move forward with confidence, there is no proof that it will actually work and the subject matter and scope of the RFC Editor function is such that analogies to IETF WGs cannot inspire great confidence. From that standpoint, we are carrying out a high-stakes experiment. And saying, as part of the description and scope of the experiment, "these are principles and changes to them are not ordinary, and, if they are to be changed at all, need special consideration" seems both appropriate and wise ... no matter what earlier documents, written in a very different (and proven) environment and with very different assumptions, might have not needed to include. john From nobody Thu Nov 11 11:33:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C9F3A0C77 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5G5p7kgyqCg for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 788B83A0C7B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id h12-20020a056830034c00b0055c8458126fso10482333ote.0 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=07ohOHO+06U2cxw0v4nv3aklaHsI9COlmCY3T7vMAbA=; b=mYi4kF1CAFD3sIRoUtb1MC688lH29r9lSTjRczkm2b85rIslBC42r07J3x08hSDYfF uySrtGQjGJ09JCI5D+ls6tVBsUQ/BG1r4L3DiYAwEly2o2L7DIvcWePE2x6kC4dR13oG vwy0IX8+/1q+kPSladxKZeD+QC74ryZc4ix/EhyN3QlCmHn/Mt/McANU9/zhJf39SJ/B aUu7Czzr0Phzx7RyoY2cZsNb9tAivZUUZ7kl0PWL3MMC8z1T6ylE8jIct+61/rVr6xji KZnhVdZddOgsCDGazFYukQWHLzQHKt2C0JIMKUHBnSILbBEZRaHknJ4QAkKEAwI0uMCI NJSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=07ohOHO+06U2cxw0v4nv3aklaHsI9COlmCY3T7vMAbA=; b=1KXHnlJcQZHjTM5IiXVM/0RNZ2rgVZ0IvkhOI6nnyaGjhxodJ4ufv/pvHFKZP+LZv+ XyqTiXO7WGQ2UwMANj9UWM1NL5b6quOT0ggKl0kblpLpxgpxReFsu/YLUBLnEZz32mru Tny3zwkhjzdTPg5KOdI8OniM/rnFdzGsCLQPJVGkx3Q7iH5dAVMykpYGS4iZXrqhERVH Eb4LmgDYfrn2TVEu3hR7+PbigIzUXn9eR3tw7NH3HQomweoepp6oYRgfd3Yc5S/GJQdG Du2E+6EC7BzI4jw1shj2JRjfaSZHR0/uqm2QyO1EAOdc2OKSif24K1EboTwnR2pReIFa bA0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ICypFD8gBlepQ8LGZxsZZkuTiaoX9repKNVCV5tUlMQj0B9IW 3ZYsrzqbQIIVKxl9/4x0AQFtyWx2pI4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzH/jSECQEr/TRh+hBMBVV2xjAj2okJujHML//krt5QyFjdOGdbGITNnXADu3EV9siJxCzEtw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1397:: with SMTP id d23mr7840163otq.68.1636659182260; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:bda8:8edb:4b5a:d7f? ([2601:647:5a00:659:bda8:8edb:4b5a:d7f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o26sm794126otj.14.2021.11.11.11.33.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:01 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D59833A0-36A4-40BD-8C1F-0DFBB87B51CD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:33:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> Cc: Bob Hinden , Michael StJohns , Adrian Farrel To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:33:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D59833A0-36A4-40BD-8C1F-0DFBB87B51CD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I like what Mike St.Johns wrote and think it should be part of the = document. As Adrian said, if there is disagreement on this text, then there is a = bigger problem at hand. I don=E2=80=99t see how it could harmful if it = helps to build a consensus. Bob > On Nov 11, 2021, at 9:49 AM, Adrian Farrel = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Mike, >=20 > I find these to useful foundations. On the whole I might take them as = well-known, but I think that future-proofing the discussions by setting = out this text is helpful. >=20 > It will, of course, disturb Brian and Eliot if we have to spend time = on this discussion now, but it seems to me that if we don't have = agreement on these points (the major points, not the wordsmithing) then = we have an elephant in the room with us. Failing to address that = elephant now would be gross neglect. >=20 > Since I agree with this text, I find it hard to understand which = points someone might disagree with. It would be helpful that if someone = is made uncomfortable by this text, they could at least flag the high = level what their concerns are so I can see the scale of the = disagreement. >=20 > I do understand that some might say, "There is no need to include this = material," but this comes back to my first point, and putting in writing = something you don't consider necessary is not immediately harmful. >=20 > Cheers, > Adrian >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Michael = StJohns > Sent: 11 November 2021 17:21 > To: rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed >=20 > I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the > aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed > into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series > principles. I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this = incorporates > their comments. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >=20 > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. >=20 >=20 > ## Availability >=20 > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >=20 > ## Accessibility >=20 > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. >=20 > ## Publication Language >=20 > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. >=20 >=20 > ## Commonality of Purpose >=20 > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. >=20 >=20 > ## Diversity of Interests >=20 > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on = networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >=20 > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >=20 > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. >=20 >=20 > ## Breadth of Expression >=20 > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. >=20 > ## Archival Quality >=20 > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >=20 > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. >=20 > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >=20 >=20 > ## World-class Publication >=20 > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >=20 > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_D59833A0-36A4-40BD-8C1F-0DFBB87B51CD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmGNb+wACgkQrut0EXfn u6i6HQgApf9PVM+9tCa8djj1yZo7bEXrjcxgV8AOWYwpjKNciRY+ah1Ldki8Iv8G pMwjKZCZ6YklIItqReSY8a4If/9T2Eb+kxMQPOHCJGWK+hHseNZviEEVwA4eyePt 86qiG9Hw69eUoesTZwZDXJavM0G/RukdwSlD/ncI2saMqbdrq0cwAOs1MSemR4jM KTDFjllR9thTkUojZbTTrnwLnZ45nkLZoux7pYAZA4mkI9th97I0uqNsGaJI68wv EfXsemQjnNoplFI2jt02QyuYFmE2Gx6XENRLUhVzg1dA5ICKvoTE6xeFHsagyj2h SoXXmcHeQsNfCu4XFinnaujQst4nHA== =xCNv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D59833A0-36A4-40BD-8C1F-0DFBB87B51CD-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 11:43:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A993A0CA4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMtJp8AN48MF for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47DEA3A0D6A for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id u17so6538992plg.9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YC897Go1xj1csPEmUUQiVTupE5+YwhQkIC7CUoXxFms=; b=iCPbvB5LcvCbU7rnRGiN2xVosUzi1g+L1vXnMB3asaucN1uk4XwhB0bhhkA2Dw3Nxp 2bPCw+X61lAKGmJQvWoqEmUPeUsTzlGy0E7aPDTlBW315G8Qy6BxxpiTdGcVAQHmYk6+ fpIB6IfviWZihC0A5B9cS3EEzIwimCZdo85D/QVX8vAp6LrIjcrL/2xP3Ddv4GtqyNM8 qrkfNj9SU0Ne3rKtvBoJYGcHqLawPCC1nhw6YPCybGPQJ4RLPPNf/SHenb5i83DBIn47 ABTXujOD12VCvgVfg+Jwp9njcIgVB4b/oT8q7FcgOvUErGTMnSvd+mezzLg1I4hMT3rz 3Xlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YC897Go1xj1csPEmUUQiVTupE5+YwhQkIC7CUoXxFms=; b=2k4wRtmLC3Xy11yvyCV9HmcoOpnVQ1opDNUWbAi0EouDGDD1YmaoIysa7Su7EoAbxE nLDFaimVHRE6yfRhJ5pxKwVPJfX7i6U/Z1Qu2dGhWNeDrzw/bMd88bm8rkfv/CeuaGtf pLok4Ep574B4yE2iX7/C6sYT/jrEmbGOE2b+JksKyErPUn4I2wd13jFIUEXNnbXP7dO5 YXbgi6uMrdFnZQRsfrPfH2Eqpj7kA/emG1aifjdJw0BmKjhGO55DuHYgKEzTEz2Cd17M 7G75ypg5ry35gWtUq22v0CUPcZQJCONoLHsKvGtxHP5u6V+/6FF9DvUTYifgP4vQb8ha f3pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yuX0FfT+9CcrR1lIbG3gr5C4T4y5bmJLdbPnAy/ZDcSTNeRa5 IlEZRi9e1qVzRC/cD0bddn15FruP1QBRpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCbVODO3s/D0QBonNCu6cUH5zlC9JMeUKN14J/BQkjkGvgSsXOrerHw7Tctgiw9vEoUn1hGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a05:: with SMTP id kk5mr11078911pjb.232.1636659805314; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e15sm4016141pfv.131.2021.11.11.11.43.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:43:24 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <265400BF-691B-42F4-AD13-8E3683BF4FC6@kuehlewind.net> <22C11BFA-3AD5-4CC7-A13A-1B6C4A9877C4@ietf.org> <462F3FA7-1D4D-47CF-9F75-13568BDF7DE7@kuehlewind.net> <3dc73607-7b77-a0f0-797a-3b9003cf8841@lear.ch> <19c5b3f1-4180-52ec-7f1a-e0efe6b837b0@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <65a641b3-23d1-48fa-5bb0-c26f079d01ca@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:43:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19c5b3f1-4180-52ec-7f1a-e0efe6b837b0@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Issue 129: who issues the community last call X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:43:35 -0000 On 12-Nov-21 02:58, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > On 11.11.21 14:48, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> The wording here is a bit strange.=C2=A0 One of the appeals grounds we= >> already discussed is that the RSAB can be asked to rule that the RSWG >> chairs misjudged the RSWG rough consensus.=C2=A0 So, to some degree, t= he >> RSAB clearly does end up judging rough consensus. >> >> Which suggests the same balance here.=C2=A0 Let the RSWG do the job, a= nd >> allow the RSAB to say "you got it wrong". (whether only in response to= >> an appeal or as part of the RSAB review seems to be a minor fillip.) >=20 > This is how I interpret the text today, and it was not an accident, but= > it was rather a negotiation. True. However, if the text still needs interpretation, that suggests that= it isn't quite clear enough. Or that we should revisit it a couple of yea= rs from now, and make any adjustments then. Trying to make it perfect now is= unrealistic. Brian > You may recall the detail we went through > to get to what the authority of the RSAB is, and on what the RSAB can > decide, and on the role of the RSWG chairs, which oughtn't be > forgotten.=C2=A0 They are selected from the IAB and IESG to see that pr= ocess > is followed. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/11/2021 8:40 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/11/2021 5:00 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> This group discussed and agreed that the RSAB does NOT measure >>>> consensus, precisely because it allows for a pocket veto.=C2=A0 I pr= opose >>>> not to revisit that aspect. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure that the group did not give the RSWG carte blanche to= >>> ignore community input, but if they are the only ones measuring >>> consensus, it sounds like that's exactly what can happen. >>> >>> I don't recall interpreting the RSAB role as you do.=C2=A0 The RSAB g= ets >>> to decide if process isn't followed, and that AFAICT includes >>> deciding that community input was ignored or community consensus was >>> not achieved. >>> >>> You've got the archives - could you point to where you're >>> interpretation overrides mine? >>> >>> Mirja's process makes sense given that the RSAB is making the >>> community call. >>> >>> Later, Mike >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Eliot >>>> >>>> On 11.11.21 10:48, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>>> 8) If substantial comments have been received, the RSAB will hand >>>>> the document back to the RSWG. If substantial changes have been >>>>> made, an additional RSWG call last should be consider by the RSWG >>>>> chairs. When all comments have been addressed to the satisfaction >>>>> of the RSWG, the chairs will re-request approval by the RSAB which >>>>> may decide to issue additional community calls respectively. >>>> >>> >>> >> >> From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:00:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1FA3A0EFA for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.33 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjfzLdQ_kaNK for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2129.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 577C03A0EFB for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:00:16 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=d6XMDT1DZ22h0MzD8t+18+cXh5XW1Nmi4KJTwPZErz0YhwuVGJwVp+kXRknTJ5NjAQQ1qhFyBa4l2XAsjHmfgUI/8hhtJ9KjvOzaigQ36WnnR2xOXlF+9HsVNRPa+022RiD9HFTL0VvSCYE8Trg0vECjjPHh7MShEucyNMKYo48wDf14Qv2sAG6oj6RHe1AlFb/zIAdQ/kFW3svchMG7H643LmpB/T5sMf3UmEA0sHvpoiqrmjblkKGIIy7MQCqRuN9pQQyC2imq/VwJmrHhAS72jwntgenJ3ZoYdxFj8V23LI74HfZJYL2ecgTHyBk6E5TtRYuyVC/7B5di11rYvg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=U4c5T+c/tTWwQP9aYDFOUVoyzzAEdCJ+pg1lcXO8EOg=; b=f/oWFVYpHw/RcW2OThuwoamGx8oS6pkq7Oh/duqnW+YrPnt+Y7yfF9ygQkfONrHM3F7ssOiy9SMLWruhGhdKMru8q237iC6RdbeiNHiLElL9bBYjFTFR35mAX7FaS7lX8Ue8n/cazWtvE95OdRVQeH54ptHp98DepUII27vrgWtbmQxTufb3yRKx3gZyULTn28CUDcdReq+3MXPDfdCbSxbaDB/qQ1N8eXnaKtMk0cBe3RpNUXOCd++lV5OudaaIBV+e1np+/O5fzBnIu+ZR/BjW1Pu/1mp04FO1oR066vU8r7XmNXED0MnYtmdQbY00s3iaZEh1KUsMyZeMlo49jg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=U4c5T+c/tTWwQP9aYDFOUVoyzzAEdCJ+pg1lcXO8EOg=; b=uZUuKvKi9RDF5E7VhUqg70L1XC+Y0jKj1d+V0eHO3pDnBAVqwPB4K6it2e52eSsHtGl6c3KvT7HYHwYbJ1jO6JUMDkR3uAJ8vmm2Ekc4Huk0b5fxZv33HoN+Te4FclbptiL8xNS9cbpG5nlRHOiZxxQLN2xRsavrQQiyypHw8ePVDRPShpBpnmVkg7aK3UJD+KmBSuAMv2Cje60FM0G7xVr6ZvrnpsX1oGp4pKDtwSgtpW7d5j68rxpX0Vkz9kaAiSxfO1modFjXkVRv+v+5I9kYMKJ5ygOzvFTRhlkiA03gJBH2jIZZM6gfBxVuZkl+HwYaIR12qjYGDArJnDBTeQ== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB3979.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:4e::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.15; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:00:11 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cc12:31d:4dac:8672%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4669.019; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:00:11 +0000 To: "Joel M. 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boundary="yMScT1H1Io5ovQzimhS1UKiXfU5w5O9Xz"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <158e9363-c617-16d4-ca33-1191698277f9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <8e10f34c-9844-5d2d-5945-1c8339e150cb@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <8e10f34c-9844-5d2d-5945-1c8339e150cb@joelhalpern.com> --yMScT1H1Io5ovQzimhS1UKiXfU5w5O9Xz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F2F57421B13E11091EF4C44C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F2F57421B13E11091EF4C44C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/11/2021 17:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > This seems to me to be a good list of points to include in the RFC so a= s=20 > to capture our communal goals. +1 - I think some of Mike's text needs work but I think the draft needs this kind of text even more. Cheers, S. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/11/2021 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> I apologize for the delay in providing the following.=C2=A0 This is th= e=20 >> aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed = >> into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series=20 >> principles.=C2=A0 I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this=20 >> incorporates their comments. >> >> >> >> >> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >> >> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of >> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. >> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the >> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the >> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and >> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community >> consensus for such a change. >> >> >> ## Availability >> >> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more= >> than 35 years.=C2=A0 No change shall be made to the model which would >> introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. >> Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust >> license<> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >> >> ## Accessibility >> >> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible= >> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing >> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall >> require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of >> the RSAB. >> >> ## Publication Language >> >> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. >> No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of >> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative >> content language of an RFC shall remain English. >> >> >> ## Commonality of Purpose >> >> The RFC series is the general publication system for information >> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community >> discussions on those topics.=C2=A0 Neither an expansion nor contractio= n of >> that scope is desired. >> >> >> ## Diversity of Interests >> >> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, >> research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >> eulogies [RFC2468].=C2=A0 And, more recently, Internet standards.=C2=A0= Each of >> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history >> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networkin= g. >> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of >> such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >> >> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that >> non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to >> maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these >> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB,= >> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >> >> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future >> solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF >> publications. >> >> >> ## Breadth of Expression >> >> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is >> expected to account for individual expression where possible. >> >> ## Archival Quality >> >> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >> >> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services >> for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles >> being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve >> both the information described and the documents themselves for the >> indefinite future.=C2=A0 To meet both publication and archival needs, = the >> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the >> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while >> acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of >> the RFC Editor System functions. >> >> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive >> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and= /or >> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and >> LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >> >> >> ## World-class Publication >> >> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are >> key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is >> designed in part to enhance those characteristics.=C2=A0 Unfortunately= , >> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in >> speed of publication.=C2=A0 Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at t= he >> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the >> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >> >=20 --------------F2F57421B13E11091EF4C44C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ne22sm3212154pjb.18.2021.11.11.12.07.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:07:21 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" , Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> <6fd2bc7a-af60-8641-1fba-d7fa327cc698@nthpermutation.com> <46A48A52-0812-4F00-8F08-2EB4844F77F5@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:07:17 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <46A48A52-0812-4F00-8F08-2EB4844F77F5@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:07:25 -0000 On 12-Nov-21 03:05, Salz, Rich wrote: > Like Mike, I don't see a need for design teams here. I think we just don't know until we try. There's no reason to legislate one way or the other. Design teams in the IETF are normally open these days, so they act as way of keeping detailed technical emails off the WG list, but not as a secret cabal. Brian From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:08:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6CB3A0CEA for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrY_U9oruiRj for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x431.google.com (mail-pf1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10B093A0A84 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x431.google.com with SMTP id g18so6519634pfk.5 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/uOJd44wYNMXJcqKobJW7nWGUKhua/6vegr2WBTBROs=; b=KOzAe1dx8iuX+N5viR8nH8B4qumz3A9f4MtB+OLx+AlsDw+kUP8YAW9uMmk+WrQQQ2 CNFxSAB1Mj5FsZbtLs0wS3TfLMhbt3ste1qvwRF4ja65YasvvK0uk71PMW7DSpOf+RzB ZkBFFrXPdGKtzrohc40/dxOlLFck529vD/14c7craiSSpXZDnFhwEPHmvcRKx2jZOSPx U5BIYvfO2wZ+vff4/Ai4N6SRu4GOl9HBl3x20iLykBnj11bCRznlRBqFjtjAZEyZZeyr pU7BSuDfdGm87eCfK3+Q+jiuk1CYZlbud5yP6zYieAAKkhzLqBiusdea8nL0Bfp3oPbn v0bQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/uOJd44wYNMXJcqKobJW7nWGUKhua/6vegr2WBTBROs=; b=N2YI70iQbSEDHQZScQYKTIzSpMjZhjazvEhj7vecpMItz6rLLqZbu2uz0X82bf7uwU NoRtQ2ohdpUnWhQsFWMCNMv5RSzt+I6+9OP1ohhgD9bs4S/CdaGcq4/LsosbTN5pDZEY uFnFKmbVaB7PHUPgDT6dpMF2jDQqtWEm642ku76I0S/MLYrF9k4hePttTDr1L4ruh5Dh dbj30/C5udNpM/r1rsIQ8sjfw1DqHGU/ceTUhl4AG1KfP+rx81aYSP/R4/Hy7bkZO76a MpA8GXmASJ0gMaU89ugZtxUNHwQCTTUZeVR2b8GMxABe/bAH2bg0dyeFNcbVuA9/Av/t EnAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Nf6KvzaovhaTpi3qFjQBwY+wx6LoEG4mOgQkghOu9R2M9Ot7u kbaiyP/R4YIJ1Kg2al1YoFiifsFwRTIDug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVwox/PW579n1f4D1GAiWyI/j2E/YmCoxZ3X9LCZBVhBolf37AO83WdXkmsO1wf3VuTAgZVg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:22c3:b0:4a0:605:6446 with SMTP id f3-20020a056a0022c300b004a006056446mr8886101pfj.27.1636661313529; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z8sm2891873pgc.53.2021.11.11.12.08.31 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:08:32 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <03d53b0e-7829-8bf2-92d5-ed577938cb07@mozilla.com> <772e430d-c360-2ee0-b2f4-91eb5b49bc8c@gmail.com> <93C36266-178A-463D-8174-4E6313A5A292@mnot.net> <13c764f0-4b58-7c3f-ffa8-2ba9b3332e78@joelhalpern.com> <0789717E-4C80-41B1-82FB-48E53B7B8BB7@mnot.net> <03b89dab-65ae-dab0-8f0d-8a609b1eb1b6@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <267354b3-ce08-ae0b-d982-d6a09724625b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:08:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] iRSE comments on the new RFC editor structure X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:08:37 -0000 Eliot, That works for me, but I'd still prefer if there were a couple of weasel = words in the Abstract. Regards Brian On 11-Nov-21 21:11, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > On 10.11.21 23:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Ack. But if we weasel-word policy as "policy and related matters" >> or something like that, we will avoid claims that such things >> are out of scope. >=20 > Yes. >=20 > *Your* issue is that we haven't specifically said that the RSWG can wor= k at whatever level it needs to accomplish its goals. *Mike's* issue is t= hat the scope is too broad. >=20 > I think this needs to be addressed in two spots in the text. >=20 > In the Section 3 chapeau: >=20 >> Policies under the purview of the RSWG and RSAB might include but are = not necessarily limited to document formats, processes for publication an= d dissemination of RFCs, and overall management of the RFC Series. >=20 > To address Mike's point, I think we need to remove "but are not necessa= rily limited to".=C2=A0 The remit still covers the overall management of = the series.=C2=A0 One would really have to use one's imagination to go be= yond that remit while still having something to do with RFCS, and in that=20 instance, the RSWG and RSAB can go back to the community to request addit= ional authority. >=20 > The second change goes to what work the RSWG goes to.=C2=A0 Here Joel a= nd others have been quite clear: produce RFCs.=C2=A0 But what those RFCs = contain is likely to need to vary.=C2=A0 I would very much expect the RSC= E to be heavily involved in any substantial publication standard (that's = why that person will earn the big bucks). >=20 > So, in Section 3.1.1 (RFC Series Working Group): >=20 >> The RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) shall formulate proposals regardin= g policies that govern the RFC Series. >=20 > Change to: >=20 >> The RFC Series Working Group (RSWG) shall formulate proposals regardin= g policies *and* *any necessary* s*upporting specifications and guideline= s* that govern the RFC Series. >=20 > This further addresses Mark's point that makes it crystal clear that, y= eah, SVG can be documented.=C2=A0 The words "any necessary" are present t= o not *require *that such specifications emanate from the RSWG when all a= re satisfied with what the LLC is producing.=C2=A0 This also allows for l= eveling to happen as we learn the job. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Eliot >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:14:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE293A0D28 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:14:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N44NeqIyp60Q for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3F3C3A0D2A for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HqtGD5yDpz2xKV; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:13:56 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1CEF56C7-902B-4FAF-93DB-23E6F9D7FD2C@apple.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:13:53 +0100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> <1CEF56C7-902B-4FAF-93DB-23E6F9D7FD2C@apple.com> To: Tommy Pauly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:14:06 -0000 On 11. Nov 2021, at 20:05, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > I agree with Peter and Ekr here that this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a = list that belongs in this document. If the point of the document were to optimize the application of the = Dewey Decimal Classification to our documents, I=E2=80=99d agree. But this is not a philological exercise; the point is to guide future = work in this space. The discussion convinces me that we need this material as a backstop. Instead of spending more time on trying to disprove this, we might use = that time to fix the nits. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:41:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EE93A0E29 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_RDNS_DYNAMIC_FP=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QUvzOn170-0 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD453A0E23 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D69ABD6712D; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:41:13 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:41:13 -0500 Cc: Tommy Pauly , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5D04773D-6C8A-4B39-802F-55DFB1EAB008@sobco.com> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> <1CEF56C7-902B-4FAF-93DB-23E6F9D7FD2C@apple.com> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:41:21 -0000 I agree - useful guidance for future work in this space Scott > On Nov 11, 2021, at 3:13 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 11. Nov 2021, at 20:05, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >>=20 >> I agree with Peter and Ekr here that this doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a = list that belongs in this document. >=20 > If the point of the document were to optimize the application of the = Dewey Decimal Classification to our documents, I=E2=80=99d agree. >=20 > But this is not a philological exercise; the point is to guide future = work in this space. >=20 > The discussion convinces me that we need this material as a backstop. >=20 > Instead of spending more time on trying to disprove this, we might use = that time to fix the nits. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:54:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7DF3A0DEB for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id He03Nc9YPjV7 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com (mail-pl1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8408E3A0C9D for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id y7so6828126plp.0 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sPRhspbSGGEjwU4JpYfSlP3J5dLkM4ZTcmEXyRUwOSU=; b=TVpWv91bpCqrRZo971idH+gvKLwuQcceKmFL+pi89i4PASC6W71EoIg6xMB4YxuyKX UeXADqXDCtg9eTUD26Lkeh+Cx5ki4EHM2m5k/XZBHoylNlBci7xAbnyAQ5XTyg9mVQZF z76jKBHJD5wif6/f0J3eBxMMfKNuXea4fCHMdii3X8usixJoDCSpNUbNSOupfMbNS371 whs/uS/1nBk/4lqDS4ln5dSbtvVRJQNGk0botJxRn2jhjKSiVWUfsgDdaSZdjMlCTwRQ vRfDqXPGsBCyf78qhpKfKgGGPrTWcnQ2gGdw4zfQAr9NyWN1CI76L/N4K/Y0FwLeHwvx 02sA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sPRhspbSGGEjwU4JpYfSlP3J5dLkM4ZTcmEXyRUwOSU=; b=ZZZTQKicTLph3Nw/heCJyMtoP+LSGdifaS8M/S9y7i92cfq/Hi4IXUMwMpGOfQpceW skXLAfsPFJJtqLOoTV4LXMyGssT6aRNEExqneXFZHG9DBYMOmMep0ZESJv8WPnNwfOsb 10vnKZbg3TJzjwxwqj03lkoyWNhRgI3L3q7Fj0lnBKFwdeFKnVjHeMKB1HGyh/wQcmWL +OM6z/iO6Ij5nPSss/WKofrwJSMhoSQaclNfRhICSb2g7JOGCesJO2NM8dec1aDHH8lO bFY0fUs6XI7qMqYgDRCWQa4a3pRpPe/4QR+AHk9QNn3qbdsIByVM4Q1GR0zETEN2x605 bXEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532yi3ByLEdWid+kDzfmFe8FwMc6/T1nKwLjgt/PeQ2YaX3o0IuP NFBMA0UeoM5mKbv1Jfn476M5lfqCgkOzcg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyMeL91aKzbA+CP81iyyb2ThJHIH1mGBdAjOXMj7oYVB7KR7A45RKC2VecPHTQB0mTd1u2SgQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7b8d:b0:143:95e3:7dc0 with SMTP id w13-20020a1709027b8d00b0014395e37dc0mr2035004pll.21.1636664035970; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bf19sm9178231pjb.6.2021.11.11.12.53.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:53:55 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:53:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:54:01 -0000 On 12-Nov-21 06:40, Brian Rosen wrote: > Mike >=20 > Thanks for this. >=20 > Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how ma= ny of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. We need something a lot like this. Whether it's in *this* document or a c= ompanion document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) seems less important to me= =2E =20 > Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: > 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so pr= oscriptive in this document > 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the = detail Before we get to that, I think we need to know what disagreements *in pri= nciple* might exist. I was not one of the people who saw this in advance, but I support all of=20 it. I would also add a commitment to a robust and open peer review proces= s. Regards Brian C >=20 > What do you think? >=20 > Brian >=20 >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns =20 wrote: >> >> I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the aft= ermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed into a=20 document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. I've p= assed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their comments. >> >> >> >> >> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >> >> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of >> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. >> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the >> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the >> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and >> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community >> consensus for such a change. >> >> >> ## Availability >> >> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more= >> than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would >> introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. >> Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust >> license<> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >> >> ## Accessibility >> >> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible= >> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing >> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall >> require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of >> the RSAB. >> >> ## Publication Language >> >> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. >> No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of >> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative >> content language of an RFC shall remain English. >> >> >> ## Commonality of Purpose >> >> The RFC series is the general publication system for information >> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community >> discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of >> that scope is desired. >> >> >> ## Diversity of Interests >> >> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, >> research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >> eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of >> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history >> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networkin= g. >> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of >> such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >> >> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that >> non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to >> maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these >> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB,= >> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >> >> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future >> solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF >> publications. >> >> >> ## Breadth of Expression >> >> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is >> expected to account for individual expression where possible. >> >> ## Archival Quality >> >> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >> >> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services >> for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles >> being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve >> both the information described and the documents themselves for the >> indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the >> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the >> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while >> acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of >> the RFC Editor System functions. >> >> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive >> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and= /or >> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and >> LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >> >> >> ## World-class Publication >> >> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are >> key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is >> designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, >> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in >> speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the >> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the >> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 11 12:55:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD793A0E55; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:55:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fl2XK3G3-NtS; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0910A3A0E4C; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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(PPS) with ESMTPS id 3c95vtnrbt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:55:11 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1ABKa3Vb012736; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:55:11 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3c82mjbge5-7 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:55:11 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:39:51 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:39:51 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Carsten Bormann , Tommy Pauly CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed Thread-Index: AQHX1yCDUqJ2pZ6ScEGnQIUSBa1DCKv+6UyA//+5KwCAAFlIgIAACBOAgAATCoD//7NvgA== Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:39:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9B7A60AD-CEDC-4795-96A3-16A77A0B7794@akamai.com> <6b216400-0370-6b3e-c94f-af14cfbbc79c@mozilla.com> <1CEF56C7-902B-4FAF-93DB-23E6F9D7FD2C@apple.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21110701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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boundary="U7Wd4wZlLRJvo9hHdpvLo66vynt7IgtuB"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> --U7Wd4wZlLRJvo9hHdpvLo66vynt7IgtuB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48F07C351F0B068D03F69CF1" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48F07C351F0B068D03F69CF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Whether=C2=A0it's=C2=A0in=20 > *this*=C2=A0document=C2=A0or=C2=A0a=C2=A0companion=C2=A0document=C2=A0(= #2=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0Editorial=C2=A0Stream)=C2=A0seems=C2=A0less=C2=A0= important=C2=A0to=C2=A0me.=20 I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document existing principles from "within" the existing system. I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a significant probability that many people will want a break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. If there are any serious disagreements on principles like these then we'll be way better off if we know that now rather than only discover it later. 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l21sm8902393pjt.24.2021.11.11.13.32.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:32:17 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:32:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:32:26 -0000 On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Whether=C2=A0it's=C2=A0in >> *this*=C2=A0document=C2=A0or=C2=A0a=C2=A0companion=C2=A0document=C2=A0= (#2=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0Editorial=C2=A0Stream)=C2=A0seems=C2=A0less=C2=A0= important=C2=A0to=C2=A0me. I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just seems=20 like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous RFC. I'd = certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. Brian >=20 > I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. >=20 > I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document > existing principles from "within" the existing system. >=20 > I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a > significant probability that many people will want a > break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, > and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. >=20 > If there are any serious disagreements on principles > like these then we'll be way better off if we know that > now rather than only discover it later. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 11 13:45:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971DB3A0E00 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:45:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zUp93FRCZF0w for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 198A83A0DFE for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1ABLiu9X3649842 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:44:56 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636667096; bh=rBvxAtKGP491BmyTW/OfZE8wHcXoQ4lV3YE6MrGqu5Y=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=h1851kNWB5YM64HYUjp4Tbs9zIdrSHJWK3963k0toUZvctzXuNnfH/mgyPvo4xW3e 8J/aHsHae/hgwBeCH6ChwZjl6YQaytbrcn3H9tb/H6YMZO6xXfj8SawEGKO45wR7rG CEDoNrwGF5oiSAWHUfbVC8SPeiQ2WHjU9WcIaZw8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:44:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------HDtFPCiGkYH8LB1te5B6wzzZ" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] please doodle... 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:50:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_749ECFF4-E118-41BF-879E-CD82BA177F2F" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:50:01 -0800 In-reply-to: <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> Cc: Stephen Farrell , "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-11_07:2021-11-11, 2021-11-11 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:50:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_749ECFF4-E118-41BF-879E-CD82BA177F2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> Hiya, >> On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Whether it's in >>> *this* document or a companion document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) = seems less important to me. >=20 > I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just = seems like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous = RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which = certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and = worked on now. If we think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and = create -bis documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for = changing =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9C= core principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these together going = forward would likely be a disservice to both topics. Tommy >=20 > Brian >=20 >> I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. >> I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document >> existing principles from "within" the existing system. >> I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a >> significant probability that many people will want a >> break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, >> and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. >> If there are any serious disagreements on principles >> like these then we'll be way better off if we know that >> now rather than only discover it later. >> Cheers, >> S. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --Apple-Mail=_749ECFF4-E118-41BF-879E-CD82BA177F2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote:
Hiya,
On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter = wrote:
Whether it's in
*this* document or a companion documen= t (#2 in the Editorial Stream) seems le= ss important to me.

I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. = It just seems like a separate topic that could be a separate but = simultaneous RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of disagreement = *now*.

I agree = that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which certainly = could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and worked on = now.

If we think forward to a time = when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and create -bis documents, I imagine = there will be a different cadence for changing =E2=80=9Cthe = administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9Ccore principles and = values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these together going forward would = likely be a disservice to both topics.

Tommy


  Brian

I'd argue it's better done here and = now myself.
I think it'll be easier to relatively = succinctly document
existing principles from "within" the = existing system.
I think when the current draft is done, = there'll be a
significant probability that many people = will want a
break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is = appointed,
and good intentions now might get lost in such = a gap.
If there are any serious disagreements on = principles
like these then we'll be way better off if we = know that
now rather than only discover it later.
Cheers,
S.

-- 
Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

= --Apple-Mail=_749ECFF4-E118-41BF-879E-CD82BA177F2F-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 14:05:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621A93A0FDA for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:05:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AP73a35hEpQk for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89F413A0FD8 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1ABM4vhO015758 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:57 GMT Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF274604B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92754604A for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.119]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1ABM4txM008462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:56 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:04:55 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02E8_01D7D748.29C4F5F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ag8VneQClAmzxAIuh0VrAdzDhpqr1tkJAA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.119 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26524.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--20.466-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--20.466-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26524.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--20.465700-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtHxIbpQ8BhdbBJo06V2lHTeT5ysQDj6eFlrvf5eVgMu7LKB pljvKsfOf1wo8jNUPmEephxwV5Xz4OBsbMhlX2c5B89GKHo03naHnrXtAg8lI6r4vEVTsLe2HjW F55sm1sUX2uYEmczB0NiUCGstbltGWqBRUQClryY1Pd2wRvpA94vkwJz527bYi6ThmwuEvTpOtj OusIbNlXkb5L+B8R6qlZBXeIfdP7XUbgNMppOAc8DRReOLgIel3WFaxVW7M2ilSGxqXbofR39nS +Sh+7UtAQfiNYyjlSVLrEBPgdA+3Ajt4l5TmF6f8irf7wNB3Sj4nOjGtd/rn+JiUqjHevI07Z7+ UcGpsZjproVgMbzt6CdWGNeDxvoBRhde7HYZ0HK20BbG4zmyXqUB+KILVUD9IFWQH/JudNgvdxt ZJg3nTNe5cgMoLL9KYeiTooF+ThrdnRWNd7ZZmgI6GksNBIxVZ4oybycKGSbgm7lSO4VWy4ZjzY c2LRa+dNuRPTy4jpFJpV9rHFX3jzblc6Gei4nlCLQsumV/5S+CFkqa43bHmwMuv289VbCIxUDTx L3vuSD4+veoc+y9mWZhpDhdH8fMLEu3XubSvQFitzfafzhYes/I/m8aIlgMFzNmdVMsHrjNJdfw Risk1QP6HuDcBX9q5F5L7hZwf22fRSghnfviFwI6gMblpHUxtPGelsKOu4hfn9s2ECwbJA9jsRz S1Z6TcKzjaDbhn/PtJIfPs+qF43ZH581LXAeZwyfpezjzqJU2SSdNEgI3sLo1LxN+Aiu1OGdR0f u8ruyQPG4+GOj8tEYSl1ytIprJlwV2iaAfSWdr34lUqic7t6QwKHFtg4jegYpGArgCSfLfd+P6w wCt84RtqopBKUBlqN3TT+lcUII49YNEYMSYNNCQ9NuYCrKPno25l1nafQVUSJ2AiS0Gpw== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:05:06 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02E8_01D7D748.29C4F5F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by = discussing this if there is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6 =20 How would people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative = reference from the base document? That would allow the base document to = be approved, but not published until we had agreed on both texts. =20 A =20 From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Tommy = Pauly Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed =20 =20 On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter = > = wrote: =20 On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: Hiya, On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Whether it's in *this* document or a companion document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) = seems less important to me. I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just = seems like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous = RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. =20 I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which = certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and = worked on now. =20 If we think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and = create -bis documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for = changing =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating = =E2=80=9Ccore principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these = together going forward would likely be a disservice to both topics. =20 Tommy Brian I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document existing principles from "within" the existing system. I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a significant probability that many people will want a break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. If there are any serious disagreements on principles like these then we'll be way better off if we know that now rather than only discover it later. Cheers, S. --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org = https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =20 ------=_NextPart_000_02E8_01D7D748.29C4F5F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a = rabbit hole we are going by discussing this if there is resolute = opposition, but=E2=80=A6

 

How would = people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative reference from the = base document? That would allow the base document to be approved, but = not published until we had agreed on both texts.

 

A

 

From: Rfced-future = <rfced-future-bounces@iab.org> On Behalf Of Tommy = Pauly
Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50
To: Brian E = Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: = rfced-future@iab.org; Stephen Farrell = <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] = RFC Principles - long delayed

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_02E8_01D7D748.29C4F5F0-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 14:11:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B263A02C1 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Q_6-VWKTcJt for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A88E3A03F3 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3524B18660; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21yjLiXJz_kk; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E4B94196FBC; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:11:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:11:19 +1300 Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0736DB2A-174D-4FB4-92DB-1A66CF48BC38@ietf.org> References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:11:30 -0000 > On 12/11/2021, at 8:02 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > Jay, what say you? Fine by me. I should note that we appear to be rather casually removing = text that a number of people previously asked for and went through a few = iterations to get right, but if nobody objects then I certainly don=E2=80=99= t. Jay >=20 > On 11/10/21 8:39 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Actually, just to warp this up entirely then. So we maybe then even = need to say less and strike the existing sentence about performance = targets as well? >> The full paragraph is: >> "The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the = engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over = negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has responsibility = for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The IETF LLC is = empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a committee to complete = these activities.=E2=80=9D >>> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:36, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Okay, thanks for confirming. >>>=20 >>>> On 10. Nov 2021, at 16:34, Martin Thomson = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 02:31, Jay Daley wrote: >>>>> I would prefer not to try and scope the nature of RPC performance >>>>> targets here and now as this is already a complex area that is = going to >>>>> change in ways we don=E2=80=99t yet properly understand in the new = model. >>>>=20 >>>> This seems sensible to me. One of the many issues with the RSOC = model was their involvement in this part of the process. We should - to = the extent possible - not add those to the set of things this group = needs to concern itself with. >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Nov 11 14:40:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6DA3A0C9F for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wabze22K0351 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA1D23A0C9E for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63804B18630 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YmALnSZs2wFR for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78D104196FBC for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 11:40:21 +1300 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> To: rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> Message-Id: <425D2C83-B9AF-4EBE-9C0D-284C83F44F80@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:40:30 -0000 I don=E2=80=99t have a view on whether or not these principles are = incorporated, but if they are to be incorporated, then I do have some = significant issues with the way they are drafted and two content issues. My first content issue is that "Commonality of purpose" and "Diversity = of interests" contradict each other. The former restricts the scope, = the latter addresses the extraordinary breadth of the scope. My = recommendation would be to delete "Commonality of purpose" because I can = only see it stopping things from happening, not protecting the series in = any way. My second content issue is that "Breadth of expression" does not = properly balance the stated aim "individual expression" with the need = for consistency, clarity, readability, etc. Rather than express this in = favour of one or another, it is better put as statement of the various = things that must be balanced. My draft issues are that a number of these are not expressed as = principles, they are expressed as policy and for me the whole point = about principles is that they sit above policy, as analysed below: > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >=20 > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. This change mechanism is the one piece of policy that is required and = doesn=E2=80=99t need repeating below. > ## Availability >=20 > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more = than 35 years. Principle but better stated as "The RFC series documents shall be freely = available digitally". > No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. Policy. > ## Accessibility >=20 > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired.=20 Principle. > Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. Policy. Covered by the change mechanism above. > ## Publication Language >=20 > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. Principles > ## Commonality of Purpose >=20 > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. As noted above, I would strike this. > ## Diversity of Interests >=20 > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on = networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. Principle >=20 > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. Policy. >=20 > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. Principle. >=20 > ## Breadth of Expression >=20 > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. Principle but my preference would be "The RFC Series should balance the = need for a defined brand and style to ensure consistency, clarity and = readability, with the freedom of authors to express themselves = individually." > ## Archival Quality >=20 > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >=20 > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. Principle. > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. Policy. > ## World-class Publication >=20 > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. =20 Principle, though better worded as a statement of balance. > Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. Policy. I would simply strike all the policy parts except the change mechanism = in the preamble. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Nov 11 14:58:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463063A0DB6 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWWKsCODorX8 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 187643A0DB2 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse46.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.46] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mlJ1A-000ArS-Br for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 23:58:07 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HqxvZ5xbnzBCW for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mlJ18-0007pT-Mc for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 15660 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2021 22:58:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.63]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 11 Nov 2021 22:58:02 -0000 Message-ID: <64815e20-04c6-7844-33d5-c11d6e3cf997@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:58:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.46 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Khir W597VmI/2Kq3P8sU4z1wGYjbvhzWX8Co+5c+eruaSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4an1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYoo YruKIckVCKVmLUKCMWyJb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlhYlSSAXfqAdaIDBDPacCU0Otp+q3yU+z72+fnpodgpDE4hk 2/toVbnXLXbNz+nsYipus0mmwP6KIuEOfogXhudmMRr+w2X69ygMahiTQMBdV+jgNfwg+rDJHsT/ JRA7zDheMPxghFsjIwINNqkbXC8q7fBXfwiTkcwbv0dB5b3yNR3oW5YiBYO7UVjw0gdRPrII++x6 YSSQfv2n7TJ4De1knRDjH7QY7Fm+gQ0M40rBtaly/uPaPGs4IuAYIIDnnmIMx2SsJMcYcfaTa1Z5 siYOS4qqjKkTvrhEiORgsEtrMS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:58:13 -0000 On 11/11/2021 9:40 AM, Brian Rosen wrote: > Mike > > Thanks for this. > > Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how many of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. > > Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: > 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don’t think we should be so proscriptive in this document > 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the detail > > What do you think? I observe that Jon Postel never bothered to write down these principles, and I am worried about making a definitive statement as part of this document. Mike is making an honest effort to write down what is largely oral history and culture, but it is inevitable that when doing so his personal preferences get written down. For example, the paragraphs about diversity of interest show a great preference for a strong distance between the RFC community and the IETF. This is a debate that we had last year, we found a consensus that is reflected in the structure of the WG and of the RSAB, and I would rather not reopen that debate now. If we want to cite principles, I would rather cite the various already published RFC that make references to these principles, and leave it at that. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Nov 11 16:16:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4EC3A0CEA for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ykyxJyenMaA for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 439023A0CE9 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id k21so9115135ioh.4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+6z/X+bmNq0IHGXRGptdDVpEAdWefip+K/qhn4qI9NU=; b=XldHUye3J5THIEIrRFHNU7MaT8pKgcdjgBflIvcLY2famvmacvLUqEqg51q8PtnKRf /I/0TETkxyf+b3cwKdxL+F6q5jZWb/35eBp7pow9lqzxEtjrB8lTlmnTb8ArYrhfqJfH VBPeUkaf1UyfoL1kfMAamt1q1GAytjUMmQrH9FFq+QJ+MPvJYO4daf5ysv7baDOSGUuw 4dwOG60oBZHtAxeBw37mjvNAvnqiaKa1x9lWDosGIIyKY/jube/IaIoQU9YIWJ8K8ZAT oVuT7VZ66nHbo/NwB2OfTUVnYT4iA/Aw7R3PEyzEeS9rPcubLI2xqn34rD5O7dOiDciw p1eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+6z/X+bmNq0IHGXRGptdDVpEAdWefip+K/qhn4qI9NU=; b=POEu3sQfrNR6JQQs2oNomgPvqm5h+QXXpBbTcbzx8U+Ft8IlMP2HGpto6P5JdymmSS 5dRDC9t+0ZpBz2H0mKdDrqrNHOIJ1wxmdEbytcey3TTh3ckckv1JqY8I4XAmkK2Of7jM /iAbpTnLst2gB7QuRs87pa6hWPCoiyCvUIvQ50fQzETVw2jAMGHwvne4ScbYevolFzXg K9bZA/6hTWpk/x13jlL4hd0LKRhpp3XPYKMtyK2AwuN0xu0dm+LaCH6rdPfN6xSG9rbs kSbbST8zAH9cN3knmBQobIq/ysjL+DRIHdyNpT0om0F+ASQnhZtETrxpVM3NCBQeq7i7 ja0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531qWijKW2bBYaRgfEDpvZc+j8c/YnzqzUx2W92SgxwCRZhOMKHh fTsETskdAm7oI289j2YR3ffz/ypQeqm8h9iCIJRxQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxd9UwXTK2xFvcaSA3CHzfnYfH5lyKt+d/y6rHzezwC3vW8JBr3B4+V+lj3dRKGQvViR6J7V5YHVdZ3x3tG9JQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:734d:: with SMTP id a13mr8669075jae.113.1636676188386; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:15:52 -0800 Message-ID: To: Adrian Farrel Cc: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d252ce05d08c5e61" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:16:35 -0000 --000000000000d252ce05d08c5e61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:49 AM Adrian Farrel wrote: > Since I agree with this text, I find it hard to understand which > points someone might disagree with. It would be helpful that if > someone is made uncomfortable by this text, they could at least flag > the high level what their concerns are so I can see the scale of the > disagreement. Well, my concern is fundamentally that the purpose and effect of this text is to put certain matters outside the ordinary democratic RSWG process and into some other process that is much harder to execute, thus freezing them in their current configuration and not necessarily in the configuration that best serves the community. So, it's not so much that I necessarily agree or disagree with this text but rather that I disagree with the entire premise of the text. With that said, let me pick out two items, one of which I agree with on substance and one of which I disagree with. These aren't exhaustive but are merely designed to help lay out the nature of my objection. > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. As I am a native English speaker and my command of other languages is poor, I would be opposed to any change of the RFC series into some other language. However, I think that if we got to the point where the RSWG, the community, and the RSAB (which, note, in its current state, effectively requires agreement from either the IAB or the IESG because they collectively control 3 members) thought it was best to change to some other language, that seems like it would be entirely appropriate. For that reason, I am against a statement in this document that biases against that change. > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. First, I don't really know what it would mean for the RFC Series to be a "world-class publication series" (though, given the rather uneven quality level, I suspect that under many definitions it would not be). In any case, I don't think that this kind of patting ourselves on the back belongs in this document. Second, the right set of editorial procedures for documents is precisely the kind of issue which the RSWG ought to be resolving--and indeed has been the topic of active debate--so it's entirely inappropriate for this document to rule it out of scope. Finally, I'm quite surprised to see the LLC named as having to sign off on any of this. When the LLC was first formed we took great pains to ensure that it was subordinate to the community. This seems entirely inconsistent with giving it a veto over community decisions, and mostly functions to make change harder. -Ekr --000000000000d252ce05d08c5e61 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:49 AM Adrian Fa= rrel <adrian@ol= ddog.co.uk> wrote:
> Since I agree with thi= s text, I find it hard to understand which
> points someone might dis= agree with. It would be helpful that if
> someone is made uncomfortab= le by this text, they could at least flag
> the high level what their= concerns are so I can see the scale of the
> disagreement.

We= ll, my concern is fundamentally that the purpose and effect of this
text= is to put certain matters outside the ordinary democratic RSWG
process = and into some other process that is much harder to execute,
thus freezin= g them in their current configuration and not necessarily
in the configu= ration that best serves the community. So, it's not so
much that I n= ecessarily agree or disagree with this text but rather
that I disagree w= ith the entire premise of the text.

With that said, let me pick out = two items, one of which I agree with
on substance and one of which I dis= agree with. These aren't exhaustive
but are merely designed to help = lay out the nature of my objection.


> The publication languag= e of the series is, and shall remain, English.
> No action shall be t= aken which will prohibit the publication of
> translations of the RFC= series in other languages, but the normative
> content language of a= n RFC shall remain English.

As I am a native English speaker and my = command of other languages is
poor, I would be opposed to any change of = the RFC series into some
other language. However, I think that if we got= to the point where the
RSWG, the community, and the RSAB (which, note, = in its current state,
effectively requires agreement from either the IAB= or the IESG because
they collectively control 3 members) thought it was= best to change to
some other language, that seems like it would be enti= rely
appropriate. For that reason, I am against a statement in this
d= ocument that biases against that change.


> As a world-class p= ublication, quality, readability and accuracy are
> key to the succes= s of the RFC Series. The publication process is
> designed in part to= enhance those characteristics.=C2=A0 Unfortunately,
> those ideals a= re sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in
> speed of publ= ication.=C2=A0 Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the
> expense= of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the
> approvals of= the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB.

First, I don= 't really know what it would mean for the RFC Series to be
a "w= orld-class publication series" (though, given the rather uneven
qua= lity level, I suspect that under many definitions it would not
be). In a= ny case, I don't think that this kind of patting ourselves on
the ba= ck belongs in this document. Second, the right set of editorial
procedur= es for documents is precisely the kind of issue which the RSWG
ought to = be resolving--and indeed has been the topic of active
debate--so it'= s entirely inappropriate for this document to rule
it out of scope.
<= br>
Finally, I'm quite surprised to see the LLC named as having to s= ign
off on any of this. When the LLC was first formed we took great pain= s
to ensure that it was subordinate to the community. This seems
enti= rely inconsistent with giving it a veto over community decisions,
and mo= stly functions to make change harder.

-Ekr










--000000000000d252ce05d08c5e61-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 16:17:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D1B3A0D1B for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:17:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3v-9N5eGmyG3 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A1363A0CEB for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id w22so9131255ioa.1 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:17:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bMuMHfkFIWJUSNKxKjldiFzqAWbwoeQn9KZdaxGTnGY=; b=on4DdWIsMuO8DKCixVDf7HxN4WAHQSw4wEnew78NozBI3BGOru5xbHYVVEhL5TG5m4 mLQbWRm9fykES4PGArpBDCOIiKPPglSITIY5r8H2KD0RGe3km6JF67N1taT1Tn+b50v1 8nOAtn6Ucru2cL5PKw0589ZFCc/IrWYKWMTjwCT0duUALLcMCqms2ndf4kwYkHkccgZu uRQGXwj53ct/oNlsE3XIQSBZmbTQbGzQhmA8FVSA581X/0OhiySa+I5ttnfHh7sX1CKq BysjiHQPNTccmAYwRg+Px2UAp/lvjg/5BrAbKPNOpP1jrqPDdO99xG/bgguOFhkG+THl Ymxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bMuMHfkFIWJUSNKxKjldiFzqAWbwoeQn9KZdaxGTnGY=; b=yvDNNFyoUy6hlli4dKdab65+6te4hcWaBMrmU1NZaLFIUD8PpGZRt+cnGyN5srNPVd DyFh/xv8Y3zyGHYDWcBtdWG+aoDhIiXBgBh/O7qaUGl0orbWARRD4rK5ytdssvFZr9bu mZntDiUExWYYX9+VArIgN169s/dCL+t3B4I8CIPfhAmEbEae1smm1bDjfSXcWT1EAlC4 MxCl0mkl6mz05CfHYIPnTDGFUVKglpVENjiewkq7Q3VpSdzwrUTUxbITnLZTPGKgGTiJ bMt6KLgUT7T/DzE4rhXXyB1HLEMoopx6jj+RDiR9OVCv1+FLxHa8TYhNf8hgefNxeIdi VQOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533o956itcMpXzO9CySUT9dcjV+DxWlXFe9+AQ5K4KrqLWoNqy4j 0OFuUn5SKK/3/+sHK52kI+lGyZgdjovfsEENx1jKxgJmcUg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyzYGpV89ZIMgRKG4c8ONxkaCIABXh9u4jOTohbYGq0WdyCFgJML8lanwjIwVcsemwESXcuLGf6mWuZ/MsTpcY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16c5:: with SMTP id g5mr8564328jat.11.1636676244266; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:17:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:16:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026f1ae05d08c6256" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:17:31 -0000 --00000000000026f1ae05d08c6256 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adrian Farrel wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by discussin= g this if > there is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6 > > > > How would people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative reference > from the base document? That would allow the base document to be approved= , > but not published until we had agreed on both texts. > I would object to this for the same reason as I object to it being incorporated. -Ekr > > A > > > > *From:* Rfced-future *On Behalf Of *Tommy > Pauly > *Sent:* 11 November 2021 21:50 > *To:* Brian E Carpenter > *Cc:* rfced-future@iab.org; Stephen Farrell > *Subject:* Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed > > > > > > > > On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Whether it's in > > *this* document or a companion document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) seem= s less important to me. > > > I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just seems > like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous RFC. I'd > certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. > > > > I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which > certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and wo= rked on > now. > > > > If we think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and creat= e -bis > documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for changing =E2= =80=9Cthe > administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9Ccore principles and v= alues=E2=80=9D. Trying to > lump these together going forward would likely be a disservice to both > topics. > > > > Tommy > > > > > Brian > > > I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. > I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document > existing principles from "within" the existing system. > I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a > significant probability that many people will want a > break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, > and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. > If there are any serious disagreements on principles > like these then we'll be way better off if we know that > now rather than only discover it later. > Cheers, > S. > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000026f1ae05d08c6256 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adria= n Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk= > wrote:

I don=E2=80=99= t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by discussing this if there = is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

= How would people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative reference f= rom the base document? That would allow the base document to be approved, b= ut not published until we had agreed on both texts.

<= /blockquote>

I would object to this for the same reason = as I object to it being incorporated.

-Ekr

=C2=A0

A

=C2=A0

From: Rfced-future <rfced-future-bou= nces@iab.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: 11 Nov= ember 2021 21:50
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&= gt;
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
= Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


<= br>

On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter= <brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

On 12-Nov-21 1= 0:04, Stephen Farrell wrote:

Hiya,
On 11/11= /2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

Wh= ether=C2=A0it's=C2=A0in
*this*=C2=A0document=C2=A0or=C2=A0a=C2=A0com= panion=C2=A0document=C2=A0(#2=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0Editorial=C2=A0Stream)= =C2=A0seems=C2=A0less=C2=A0important=C2=A0to=C2=A0me.<= /p>


I was a bit unclear= . I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just seems like a separate = topic that could be a separate but simultaneous RFC. I'd certainly like= to know the points of disagreement *now*.

=C2=A0

I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial S= tream, which certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least ado= pted and worked on now.

= =C2=A0

If we think forwa= rd to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and create -bis documents, I= imagine there will be a different cadence for changing =E2=80=9Cthe admini= strative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9Ccore principles and values=E2= =80=9D. Trying to lump these together going forward would likely be a disse= rvice to both topics.

=C2=A0

Tommy=



=C2=A0=C2=A0Brian


I'd argue it's = better done here and now myself.
I think it'll be easier to relative= ly succinctly document
existing principles from "within" the e= xisting system.
I think when the current draft is done, there'll be = a
significant probability that many people will want a
break from thi= s topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed,
and good intentions now might = get lost in such a gap.
If there are any serious disagreements on princi= ples
like these then we'll be way better off if we know that
now = rather than only discover it later.
Cheers,
S.


--=C2=A0
Rfced-future mailing list=
Rfced-= future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listin= fo/rfced-future

=C2=A0

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000026f1ae05d08c6256-- From nobody Thu Nov 11 16:58:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61C03A0E18 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5H7ZNgbMOYnU for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31C113A0E1D for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id v20so7131770plo.7 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yllGTkmVUmiDRkBKFgjpLZBrg0qBzPp7yRzk7dvJwmU=; b=bSOZARfS0zdzn/SXh+Ub0rd7y7yuyW362y6JMSJUPgsW7N1g3nR/bWOI2RPpAHOPiI eAsWBcln7C0lsT04siHZTnPUwZRWNHxTCToTa/02lHNaw81TxvMb7Rl5j/j4+dCifDc1 Tp3LIMD8Rl2s2fiXuOQGj+i3db0C9t560N61bnUz+QsMbJhTfz45zLL+2jgu3ka2oxSG NKIlZybiG1UVyYxHjLaJ2OaGasnvf2YdgOTK+9Z4LaZwiYWrRWqE69b89vEjy3iIbFIg 3EaVmC9VSbuiyeGH1WQnVGYMZEw5RKa0AB5uLxyOZVUJ7SLb9ZigplON2oK2sBQcWWAj WMXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yllGTkmVUmiDRkBKFgjpLZBrg0qBzPp7yRzk7dvJwmU=; b=glYMI9KUqwQKI73qcozWpRSsNNleURzJga9FjNhl5ohuetRz62E2IZ2B/lYX0LIj3H Xvqs/elKs39/QJvfKSgs4K86PsBnV7Ii4qoQq3OXLEBW5VcPQCalXiGGhdoUCX630eZT MBBI+6HwazhRNFjmMxxvZ9A93lz1vkV316D7XJ7n8AI0xt4Vv9YTeYBfE3q68R7UlN6V mYI78FvqZYx8gf3cuNzks7lSKtRvTCGS6hJm+ReiFB3JnzruiKNEqdOeOIVx0CxHN04a Yo8B8ZKG2PtHUTo7AzimDDax3yjweirRF0FFWRDif1+ZV3BHNUpBnKz4QXD4o2Wx3ko6 SATA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GdxwY9ISgupiT+fwYtrZvYg7wt2vxJcfQZWb3TPWEPRNpoFOz ViAguGxOStNXlp1QfL1sBMUqCJCpOHC04g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCSglvGQPZGXln6eTOBBrvxjzCsZD62+a8jOihAPBAaDBshwQWTUCzed3SymQC9GYLzh8LHA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a83:: with SMTP id lp3mr31669136pjb.242.1636678696826; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a11sm4187298pfh.108.2021.11.11.16.58.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:58:16 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:58:11 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:58:23 -0000 Eric, On 12-Nov-21 13:15, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:49 AM Adrian Farrel > wrote: > > Since I agree with this text, I find it hard to understand which > > points someone might disagree with. It would be helpful that if > > someone is made uncomfortable by this text, they could at least flag= > > the high level what their concerns are so I can see the scale of the= > > disagreement. >=20 > Well, my concern is fundamentally that the purpose and effect of this > text is to put certain matters outside the ordinary democratic RSWG > process and into some other process that is much harder to execute, > thus freezing them in their current configuration and not necessarily > in the configuration that best serves the community. So, it's not so > much that I necessarily agree or disagree with this text but rather > that I disagree with the entire premise of the text. From that, and your other message, is it fair to conclude that you'd be OK with a statement of principles that was *not* a normative reference for the RFC Editor Model (Version 3) but *was* an Editorial Stream document and hence subject to the RSWG/RSAB process? (Incidentally, since RFC Editor Model (Version 3) is not by any means a standards track document, the term "normative reference" is undefined anyway.) That said, I'll bite, with comments on your two items below. =20 > With that said, let me pick out two items, one of which I agree with > on substance and one of which I disagree with. These aren't exhaustive > but are merely designed to help lay out the nature of my objection. >=20 >=20 > > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English= =2E > > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative= > > content language of an RFC shall remain English. >=20 > As I am a native English speaker and my command of other languages is > poor, I would be opposed to any change of the RFC series into some > other language. However, I think that if we got to the point where the > RSWG, the community, and the RSAB (which, note, in its current state, > effectively requires agreement from either the IAB or the IESG because > they collectively control 3 members) thought it was best to change to > some other language, that seems like it would be entirely > appropriate. For that reason, I am against a statement in this > document that biases against that change. So, if we strike "and shall remain", it's OK? > > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > > designed in part to enhance those characteristics.=C2=A0 Unfortunate= ly, > > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > > speed of publication.=C2=A0 Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at=20 the > > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >=20 > First, I don't really know what it would mean for the RFC Series to be > a "world-class publication series" You're right, it's a judgment word, but that's a wordsmithing issue. (though, given the rather uneven > quality level, I suspect that under many definitions it would not > be). In any case, I don't think that this kind of patting ourselves on > the back belongs in this document. Second, the right set of editorial > procedures for documents is precisely the kind of issue which the RSWG > ought to be resolving--and indeed has been the topic of active > debate--so it's entirely inappropriate for this document to rule > it out of scope. Here, I think that Jay is right that some of the points merge into policy, although the boundary is fuzzy. (My fix for that is to rename the text as "RFC Principles and General Policies".) > Finally, I'm quite surprised to see the LLC named as having to sign > off on any of this. When the LLC was first formed we took great pains > to ensure that it was subordinate to the community. This seems > entirely inconsistent with giving it a veto over community decisions, > and mostly functions to make change harder. I agree, but the LLC has a resources veto over *implementation* of community decisions, recognised elsewhere in RFC Editor Model (Version 3). I think it's mainly an academic point anyway, since publication delays are rarely caused by the RPC. It's entirely a result of IETF policy, for example, that we have documents stuck for years (literally) in the RPC queue waiting for normative references. Brian From nobody Thu Nov 11 18:37:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D90E3A1076 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ZDqyb4dR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=meQGSu/r Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uoh0PRYi3xxW for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9D273A1070 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96975C01EF; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:37:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=j e09K8NEOXI70JxM1LgRY+kquqs/LOGoKf8qcL2OmUs=; b=ZDqyb4dRGxXlUN471 rAUliqtVSFnB8Qctcj3lfLlL50ecTG8b8vfgAuYKRF/tzWkPTceLssXEONSv+QTx tT+jWsAoU4A0oLNMjE8IyqKSjZsW/GQbMQgHQeDEqz1/d0iRznHSwcShcqOT4AiQ hiI62jbqwX9HYGIUqEIfNvxJYGw6twrErrzHgW837KXSnikpM5vvSHkJ3wVVm9v7 UgfbHPKlr7QguZhuuBPtbKN3YytNyi4TsfRbtIADEsEaASZ+6WswyVxfqjSpS4nw 0aPQFxjFCImjMV9AoA/iC1NTgG8F0YIbvbPE7YAemc+N0hbdepje/gNbVVvpu21M GEQMQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=je09K8NEOXI70JxM1LgRY+kquqs/LOGoKf8qcL2Om Us=; b=meQGSu/rGv78QgSMv9iWi/maMOEZ82I7qhbTmA9wK8VcrMuPM83bzsXFn bfqOZx3aTASKiDw4MdeYP+2Yn6LEEk+RIMzw7VsT049u7n9BAdwAHDnPlj44f8UZ pJDnYAnSVksvxlw12OIJVU9k9PSjZzld0ql2wdbj5MZUiZzRL5V8KUreOC3xI0Ru ML3yiAqReEjBKHyij5D9ZMu2JSDZz40wGwKNMvUSnFH4NyKst3NUv1jBQF06/fE5 KN6EmlJgO0gD+NnghFdQ6RgbBL9FC8M1dz5U9evKqPRrnnLYjdsQqimum9oGis4o j+Dimok/t8r+2Wf0EV1JBhzjZmBQg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrvddvgdegjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeiteduuddvudfftedtuddvgeehtdeuhe ehjeegledtleekvefgffehfefffeffgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhi rggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:37:00 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:36:58 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 02:37:09 -0000 I largely agree with EKR here -- these may be perfectly appropriate = principles, but the proper place to agree to them is in the RSWG process = itself, not here.=20 I.e., this is out of scope for this program. Cheers, > On 12 Nov 2021, at 4:20 am, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the = aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed = into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. = I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their = comments. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >=20 > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. >=20 >=20 > ## Availability >=20 > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >=20 > ## Accessibility >=20 > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. >=20 > ## Publication Language >=20 > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. >=20 >=20 > ## Commonality of Purpose >=20 > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. >=20 >=20 > ## Diversity of Interests >=20 > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on = networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >=20 > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >=20 > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. >=20 >=20 > ## Breadth of Expression >=20 > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. >=20 > ## Archival Quality >=20 > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >=20 > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. >=20 > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >=20 >=20 > ## World-class Publication >=20 > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 11 18:39:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F133A1076 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=FExHXOfF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XouZYvGg Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jN3jWKOwns3q for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E82C73A0EEC for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291875C0213; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:39:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=/ +7Wx9V/QwZ6KPyFnzK+ruklUAPX7gscIOuY+kXRjNg=; b=FExHXOfFyvZItvI6a SUuY3ppAhx82TRLxOvtNoyPSfAcGBnR0fnD1+v6SRADRrey7kwhYg+dzGbV+UHVt 7DQjLZX0A1DfqHaAnxJR6BuWtbw0ZDCp5y3SjPVw2mmWKbbp7WFgsPIw5xdF/SOk f50hAptOitn71+X9f8lKVyNqAmr8LrAHdUh0E3GPl1FpsjohMqKRgqTfq3QfPfzB vKWgH9BHsBWZUtNoFr7ZUkJTbL18+r4b+rrkLyuNXJJ06ALk3HT5TCZisCb8JdI6 1gqjtUxzD1pqImnJsi9AOQHfMjLKxMewnMiMIgmHzH0zU16j9AzCK8vJUFGKAcvv /Gosg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=/+7Wx9V/QwZ6KPyFnzK+ruklUAPX7gscIOuY+kXRj Ng=; b=XouZYvGggZVaQxVdVmq7oSfyskvdSJckGVpEL6uK4aiOGPPq3GuyIgVda OD7ZxeUCHJbovfX0jmrsdV0hdWgeHDrDHWqMzDQ4BDloMgjilmpVzGpebcv8T4fF RHsokCocM45nSniUfNqCpkUNjjPOmlv30PbkRNQnCU4sXsZaxXZOsblK4c/wv71T BLSaCJXDOosIWuLcVz7Kh4tTH8TzpqCg2fOA9/GEfz0w8xgPrl32cNxZmVED/Tpv M4ObQe+Cx4WUFYs8RBKFfMxHKBravbYgxwRt2NnuVo6BMrhZmAyh11caNImRrUJO 6SbraFn2gLIbkX4Y2SWjdBECH/cRg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrvddvgdegjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepteeghfevjeefvdffjeeuieeuvdevvddvudejfedthffhvefhvdfhgfduieelffev necuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 21:39:07 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:39:05 +1100 Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0586FE1B-18F1-41C1-9F8E-D4BD42D3814B@mnot.net> References: <61B6976D-14FA-4CD5-A49F-432FABE40533@ietf.org> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] How can this process be changed? X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 02:39:15 -0000 I think explicitly saying that such changes are in scope for discussion = in the RSWG is worthwhile, given the uncertainty that we've seen so far.=20= I'm very economical with words when I know lots of people are going to = be reading a document and extra words will get in their way. However, = when a point is potentially contentious in the future, spending some = words now is a very good investment. Cheers, > On 11 Nov 2021, at 8:29 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Fewer words are better. More comments? >=20 > On 11.11.21 10:20, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> I'm okay with the text below, however, I think most of word are just = unnecessary. The requirement below is simply: >>=20 >> "Updates, amendments and refinements of this document require = agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC." >>=20 >> The text below basically says then further than any process can be = used to produce these changes. But that doesn=E2=80=99t really say = anything. So I would prefer a wording like the above to make the = requirement crystal clear. If we want to be explicit I guess we can add = another sentence: >>=20 >> =E2=80=9CSuch changes can be produced in the RSWG or any other = process that is accepted by the community.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 11. Nov 2021, at 09:42, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 11/11/2021, at 9:06 PM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFWFM >>> +1 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> exec-director@ietf.org >>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 15:26, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>> How about: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Updates, amendments and refinements of this document can be = produced >>>>> using the process documented here, but are only operative upon >>>>> agreement of the IAB, the IESG, and the IETF LLC. Note that this = does >>>>> not preclude such changes from being defined outside this process, = so >>>>> long as the same agreement is found. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 11 Nov 2021, at 6:42 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 10.11.21 18:01, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>>>> The RSAB does not have the level of oversight and review of the = RSWG that the IESG has relative to IETF working groups. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Technically, the IESG defines working group charters. Working = groups can't change their own charters. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> changing the scope (charter) of the RSWG is something that = should be visibly a big deal. Not something that can be part of the = normal process. We can not constrain how the IESG and IAB want to = manage this. But the process has to be up to them, not up to the RSWG. >>>>>> Let's agree that it can't be done by the RSWG alone. We can even = say that we would like the same approvals that change the scope of the = editorial stream, which reads: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, = and IETF LLC. >>>>>> We can say something else. But we have to say something, because = the IETF are about to remove authority from the IAB, and we haven't = specified additional authority for anyone else. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>> -- >>>>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>> --=20 >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 11 19:16:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090F43A110A for ; 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Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:15:54 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0c97334f-92d3-436d-be69-d1cfe2c9de71@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 14:15:34 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 03:16:00 -0000 So I'm going to join those who disagree with the premise of the text. Alignment on principles is how we might - in the future - make good decisions. However, if Mike's goal is to blow this entire enterprise up, forcing these specific principles upon the community is a really good way to go about it. On Fri, Nov 12, 2021, at 06:33, Bob Hinden wrote: > As Adrian said, if there is disagreement on this text, then there is a > bigger problem at hand. Oh yes, we really do have a big problem. There is a massive schism in the community on this topic, make no mistake. We've been walking softly as a result. That more than anything else, is why we've made so much progress so far. We're carefully identifying those things we share and documenting them. Mike's text is an attempt to force a particular set of views into a privileged position, by effectively writing it into the constitution. We might never completely agree on some of these items, but it's possible that we don't have to. Much of the work in the IETF proceeds despite some fairly fundamental disagreements between different parties. I'm not sure that I subscribe to the philosophy that there are essentially contested concepts[1], but I'm willing to admit that the fights over some subjects are tenacious. I propose that we instead allow these principles to be discussed, agreed, and documented according to the processes we have defined. I propose that we do that as the need arises rather than preemptively. Attempting to litigate this set of principles would destroy the progress we've made thus far. Cheers, Martin [1] Gallie, W. B. (2019). Essentially contested concepts (pp. 121-146). Cornell University Press. From nobody Thu Nov 11 20:19:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DC73A11A4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:19:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=nJDxiE+1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=SHhT7R+C Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMkIteOXbsH4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AE133A119E for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17903 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2021 04:19:38 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=45ed.618deb5a.k2111; bh=iPd751BSuaeEcv8igOAFbSrVPZTyC2U1AckvbejtIbI=; b=nJDxiE+17aLXeRvLlf69coMbwhhmgpftUjxlzykjVOStLmCGkVytHASrVpmaZ+0BJcMumIzyIF5DCiILOfxHxpxzSp+xAH4XZaxRKwUdkaXKPeeSsKhpYlLXdzIjuNld3xFod0OpbJqzF+/J6EdwPe21Rg0BoK3fivRxlKJlDeMpf7CQZuKToLkatLNMcAaO8aaUZnyESvFn6m+dWldH07iKTPCkW70b9673/wMLzs/F6Ha8cTRcNUdUEo1ERLsuXIpTtaMzgoBc770cQ/J099xoplAw9vrcBRi9crb70ZvxvK2H03K2CRq9rVuDsNuPtIpNAIDH9rwERyX0y8C/cg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=45ed.618deb5a.k2111; bh=iPd751BSuaeEcv8igOAFbSrVPZTyC2U1AckvbejtIbI=; b=SHhT7R+Cy2nY3rboRs+ye4JYhpKMal1dUuA39lSv4pCYv9KoldO6YGP6H+crLIoMjaFLez0C70GRhjmTuwS9l5kfKNF6r8dxOY7x1J3rnsK+53mAvNgESCSYRBPZ3Hm9gUIMuLeVS8towap9534lorw49hwu97NZpkf2SzvEiiiyMJsPJuXWjBi4sI3wYzFKykRuAIL1+McLJ132J4TNdqxQNH93w7RgHO3b8mZR322EsnSoGRE66azo007g8wCNMEcXWn72vkqisHTnrr6gxVudK0n5ObL+FeP04zfFRm+jjjT9I9uR2tOQ/FVuFq6WC3UqNZ8p0EsB3+YGKhU63w== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 12 Nov 2021 04:19:37 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4D35C2FD6A9F; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 23:19:37 -0500 (EST) Date: 11 Nov 2021 23:19:37 -0500 Message-Id: <20211112041937.4D35C2FD6A9F@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: rfced-future@iab.org Cc: msj@nthpermutation.com In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 04:19:48 -0000 It appears that Michael StJohns said: >## Availability > >The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more >than 35 years.  No change shall be made to the model which would >introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. Oh, OK. RFCs continue to be 100% free but to get access you have to log in with your Facebook account. Trying to get this sort of stuff correct is surprisingly hard, and I don't think we should try to do it on the fly. Perhaps the RSWG can take on as one of its early tasks to create a non-binding set of principles of the series. R's, John From nobody Thu Nov 11 20:35:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E562E3A11C2 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TgVnsohgJ8R4 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 893EE3A11BF for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id w33-20020a17090a6ba400b001a722a06212so5401803pjj.0 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZZB3i6pGfaiTvhjHmcysBmgAh6ZGiRXsszGIxCHK9vo=; b=W33WfmMebLXlwMVNeDUrFvHSmy3mMG5plExqq8UEqQmNSA6V8+jVjSa14d9bPSIEPx ilE8P4ESEuQeEPBUewgpbYy/A05q5QNSxPF1Uhvsv60J08FwngyuMYjCY9rpdMUrKUNT VL+5rtf2IPndwrFFpjQWNgQV5YS1Q6VDyZy0xVOR/9V2JxXKaTVkQVeD0RhUMueCk6Fv MphUCkwYcerrGv+jV04tCjAb5SP2kevX4TKEzow824f3i5X+UrDY2rTA+j01G3azWCvH 5zDzz/UC/OXJUzFM/OhaKGEzAXz8ImZK5xdGxYJDajntQA5MrTzpMv6SDZOPjv41FlKJ Uneg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZZB3i6pGfaiTvhjHmcysBmgAh6ZGiRXsszGIxCHK9vo=; b=58miH+pkHWSjrbnAulxsOG7QKTk/KTJdwwlUuxlVtpOymjNVuKB6aPUVDz+yFxpfHb /4U99FNbTVrSSx/I9Lh/Q3nk+2DwzpuwrTge9yrojbMC7VadedgS6pOT0XxsOTg3SgZz qSEB4v/Rf/MNDm0H6BzYXROy2NtYe9jZLKGaKv5nqN44teoKLV/i2BGQ6+pTlaZJAHGA XuEDzUOUUr7frF9pkYIWix04x9K0e5wtRwPnmdyiNh/70RfxOtqp6/Sxwo2cPNX6LBQS rJfLC4mj1xHSaipOGUsNJ+I0Jbrdk2AJs2myG0ZJUmqrlqzMi38ZOKXToqG5TXPun4N8 Cpnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530g/NyZNZkwL60qwbnSBtQXzFIaBkFKn51fCPl2vi8el7lQVDuJ Tza/Mjzx+7qVhyIXiHoLXkm9DmUqNTA7Zg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzuZ5s8YKsqdSQTgeBI+yow5GOJyX6KYW1T6e58sK74XV1DzzigxWSxqZfFl7nKUZdFxojrFw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b107:: with SMTP id z7mr14286054pjq.104.1636691702322; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s3sm3785238pjk.41.2021.11.11.20.35.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:35:01 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> <0c97334f-92d3-436d-be69-d1cfe2c9de71@www.fastmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:34:58 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0c97334f-92d3-436d-be69-d1cfe2c9de71@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 04:35:05 -0000 On 12-Nov-21 16:15, Martin Thomson wrote: > So I'm going to join those who disagree with the premise of the text. > > Alignment on principles is how we might - in the future - make good decisions. However, if Mike's goal is to blow this entire enterprise up, forcing these specific principles upon the community is a really good way to go about it. Well, maybe, but suggesting that the community should try to agree on a set of principles and high level policies is not. Actually deciding on them is not exactly excluded by our charter, but not exactly included either: "This program has no predetermined constraints on the decisions of the group. Updates to or retention of the oversight model, management, and the roles involved in the RFC Editor function are all within scope." I believe that our Chairs have discretion to determine whether *defining* principles and high level policies are in scope. > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2021, at 06:33, Bob Hinden wrote: >> As Adrian said, if there is disagreement on this text, then there is a >> bigger problem at hand. It isn't yet clear to me that we have that problem, because I haven't yet understood properly which of Mike's principles and high level policies are objected to at a basic level, once the superficial drafting issues are resolved. But neither is it clear to me what we gain by stalling the RFC Editor Model (Version 3) until they are resolved. This model creates precisely the environment where we can debate the principles and high level policies. > Oh yes, we really do have a big problem. There is a massive schism in the community on this topic, make no mistake. There isn't *one* topic. There are a whole lot of topics in Mike's text. There are far more thorny issues within the IETF standards process that might, if anybody seriously tackled them, completely transform the IETF Stream's requirements. That's a 20-year-old problem that I don't expect to see tackled soon. > > We've been walking softly as a result. That more than anything else, is why we've made so much progress so far. We're carefully identifying those things we share and documenting them. > > Mike's text is an attempt to force a particular set of views into a privileged position, by effectively writing it into the constitution. > > We might never completely agree on some of these items, but it's possible that we don't have to. Much of the work in the IETF proceeds despite some fairly fundamental disagreements between different parties. I'm not sure that I subscribe to the philosophy that there are essentially contested concepts[1], but I'm willing to admit that the fights over some subjects are tenacious. > > I propose that we instead allow these principles to be discussed, agreed, and documented according to the processes we have defined. I propose that we do that as the need arises rather than preemptively. Do you also agree that if it ain't broke, don't fix it? One argument for documenting historical and current principles and high-level policies is precisely to avoid inadvertent damage by changing something without fully understanding the consequences. That's why I think that documenting them up front is valuable. It doesn't turn them into a sacred text. But on balance, I agree, this does not belong in the RFC Editor Model (Version 3). Regards Brian > > Attempting to litigate this set of principles would destroy the progress we've made thus far. > > Cheers, > Martin > > [1] Gallie, W. B. (2019). Essentially contested concepts (pp. 121-146). Cornell University Press. > From nobody Thu Nov 11 22:19:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704C23A1304; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:19:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tp74Ggf62BkJ; Thu, 11 Nov 2021 22:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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QP8L+37+hlNNfZV2mFFxq7LSGfSZkUwKXhl8DGfA= Message-ID: <88cf9bf3-8415-6076-1c7a-19f8efe78c48@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:19:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> <0736DB2A-174D-4FB4-92DB-1A66CF48BC38@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0736DB2A-174D-4FB4-92DB-1A66CF48BC38@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0W1z360A70T7bFpaVsig7XdJ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 06:19:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------0W1z360A70T7bFpaVsig7XdJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8bgbIzHRb0Z4ba40Kv7BThUU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Jay Daley , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Mirja Kuehlewind , Martin Thomson Message-ID: <88cf9bf3-8415-6076-1c7a-19f8efe78c48@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] #120 Clarification on performance targets text References: <65CEC7CD-90A6-42F9-B03B-564090329AB1@kuehlewind.net> <5d6bedcc-88b3-416f-b731-7c4b262613f8@www.fastmail.com> <1F94EA54-27BD-43D1-9E9A-387A64CF7214@kuehlewind.net> <0736DB2A-174D-4FB4-92DB-1A66CF48BC38@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <0736DB2A-174D-4FB4-92DB-1A66CF48BC38@ietf.org> --------------8bgbIzHRb0Z4ba40Kv7BThUU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGOB2YFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNo vAgAkqUsd1NQ4JUHtMsX0AfSb7ggUGZ+z3NaE3wcL1kTGVjm0Hw+tbA7HkHQDoPdqBwTW5LQ8D+T YckVMnWDNNdzr9P+cSNSQBkM6nEoILKczTByvgGSPzwAuaJ7cp2cFY4qLzw6XSsHUm52jnCDwKdf pJdyBCr005oozR3pcGSLQZ/WAqXf0hlZink/qjIHIsK/NHPSUwl1DfrtqrCYtT7gWgyXqdLSk9O1 ShhrP/0a1xzOiC1grqAO6uoWHtV7mhDZd74/+VxKitm5mtbd8qrXScm3nojnz9OliYysQVgZGZhV 5F0jD2yM+UJrzQIjah0845w47iauLx2DZvrw+mpSUg== =XEC1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------0W1z360A70T7bFpaVsig7XdJ-- From nobody Fri Nov 12 00:49:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D343A13D4 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r6r6EdJDZiqB for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 661323A13D6 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AC8nUgL031543; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 GMT Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774DC4604A; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF9E46043; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.119]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AC8nT03030358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Eric Rescorla'" Cc: "'Michael StJohns'" , References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <036401d7d7a2$35af1760$a10d4620$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0365_01D7D7A2.35B028D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgEX6KRZAV8wc76sG30+MA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.119 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26524.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--13.428-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--13.428-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26524.006 X-TMASE-Result: 10--13.428200-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: yebcs53SkkDxIbpQ8BhdbI61Z+HJnvsOvMRNh9hLjFkrxUs8Nw/2fsU5 q8O6FzjsuBVFqK4EY2FM8JLNkyi5FXPixVYoX1xjiH95tLFH8edPnKxAOPp4WVnFZNfj6Xm2HjW F55sm1sUX2uYEmczB0NiUCGstbltGPg9yfk4YC0YLwUwfdPoXvqbsRRaTaNLRwCTIeJgMBBvF2Z IEe9OYkwi1ZKyMsNGHXr6ShcUgPsNId3l8L6FwhJ2qrRzrhHWqZ3KXhrKnN9vLkl8e9W70iyMIN 1XfvZowul6OdtdFAhdbUx5s8QD6NGwbe3d7QWkESEiJg5LpJbDquiWiLdUHoshkuSuyVkrM6Jtz yqE3wig8ok4IasF9qzvCYMMdl4ETsFNXDTDWmhCu4uRBVJmJbFRXlDwI7HfGqACdVGuL5bV5CtB Zx4r6VPU8jGdfA9eCK8koNkHBswfhtQ/fpJEpx6yBo9Jaui9GEDnDEqNPduo/hxcogCsi5oM3J3 FYvc7PV5PYFje3TbfmjiIWAqiOddfV1UV9HZ640H8ihGEHNUcCn5QffvZFleQi+UPSgGyWJJ5qB vCHQL5eIUHPgwITOlM/RWQICVPMLIZr1dp0hq3Bjbyj5wYDmqkHfh7O2L+7A6BMDL2MaVTvWrVX 7Ret/zTnQKMaj6xqcbgUf5QjVMb6U0b/i6LW4+9VsdrlGzy3Q6/DFZugyt1bYv6Kt+uF2MxFQxp 3PhHymoRv4vCWtWMfvo9UW9ImXv+z7xWvCPyPWcC0gYMYIWiOVGny5q72hiPS9JdK3W4/zU4H2c 6gTjqNA7k11Cii6509pgURDiYV8oEzakJLHA+eAiCmPx4NwAM5kYUazKEVsOzOncrmCoOFR9Hau 8GO7k+gZzbr04kzxFF1PH3IZRyTf6K1grI7edDu2LQNvVXmfdu3syRg8vay+/gkDl6HrB1FsMXn Mc917qaVOHzLg41Z8QoJlbnDrHyw3HzkBy/3 X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:40 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0365_01D7D7A2.35B028D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for engaging on this point, Eric. =20 If I understand you right, you are saying that you are concerned that = decisions made now might serve to limit what the RSWG can do later as a = =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D process. =20 Questions: Is what we are doing now not democratic? Is not the way we = are shaping the future process putting limits on what the RSWG can do = later? =20 I think it is helpful that you called out a couple of specifics in your = text below. Funnily, I don=E2=80=99t find what you say there to be = contentious at all: I=E2=80=99m sure we could easily find wording on = those points to satisfy both sides (up to and including removing text). =20 Cheers, Adrian =20 From: Eric Rescorla =20 Sent: 12 November 2021 00:16 To: Adrian Farrel Cc: Michael StJohns ; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed =20 On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:49 AM Adrian Farrel > wrote: > Since I agree with this text, I find it hard to understand which > points someone might disagree with. It would be helpful that if > someone is made uncomfortable by this text, they could at least flag > the high level what their concerns are so I can see the scale of the > disagreement. Well, my concern is fundamentally that the purpose and effect of this text is to put certain matters outside the ordinary democratic RSWG process and into some other process that is much harder to execute, thus freezing them in their current configuration and not necessarily in the configuration that best serves the community. So, it's not so much that I necessarily agree or disagree with this text but rather that I disagree with the entire premise of the text. With that said, let me pick out two items, one of which I agree with on substance and one of which I disagree with. These aren't exhaustive but are merely designed to help lay out the nature of my objection. > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. As I am a native English speaker and my command of other languages is poor, I would be opposed to any change of the RFC series into some other language. However, I think that if we got to the point where the RSWG, the community, and the RSAB (which, note, in its current state, effectively requires agreement from either the IAB or the IESG because they collectively control 3 members) thought it was best to change to some other language, that seems like it would be entirely appropriate. For that reason, I am against a statement in this document that biases against that change. > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. First, I don't really know what it would mean for the RFC Series to be a "world-class publication series" (though, given the rather uneven quality level, I suspect that under many definitions it would not be). In any case, I don't think that this kind of patting ourselves on the back belongs in this document. Second, the right set of editorial procedures for documents is precisely the kind of issue which the RSWG ought to be resolving--and indeed has been the topic of active debate--so it's entirely inappropriate for this document to rule it out of scope. Finally, I'm quite surprised to see the LLC named as having to sign off on any of this. When the LLC was first formed we took great pains to ensure that it was subordinate to the community. This seems entirely inconsistent with giving it a veto over community decisions, and mostly functions to make change harder. -Ekr ------=_NextPart_000_0365_01D7D7A2.35B028D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for engaging on this point, = Eric.

 

If I = understand you right, you are saying that you are concerned that = decisions made now might serve to limit what the RSWG can do later as a = =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D process.

 

Questions: = Is what we are doing now not democratic? Is not the way we are shaping = the future process putting limits on what the RSWG can do = later?

 

I think it = is helpful that you called out a couple of specifics in your text below. = Funnily, I don=E2=80=99t find what you say there to be contentious at = all: I=E2=80=99m sure we could easily find wording on those points to = satisfy both sides (up to and including removing = text).

 

Cheers,

Adrian

 

From: Eric Rescorla = <ekr@rtfm.com>
Sent: 12 November 2021 = 00:16
To: Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: Michael StJohns = <msj@nthpermutation.com>; rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: = Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long = delayed

 

> Since I agree with this text, I find = it hard to understand which
> points someone might disagree with. = It would be helpful that if
> someone is made uncomfortable by = this text, they could at least flag
> the high level what their = concerns are so I can see the scale of the
> = disagreement.

Well, my concern is fundamentally that the purpose = and effect of this
text is to put certain matters outside the = ordinary democratic RSWG
process and into some other process that is = much harder to execute,
thus freezing them in their current = configuration and not necessarily
in the configuration that best = serves the community. So, it's not so
much that I necessarily agree = or disagree with this text but rather
that I disagree with the entire = premise of the text.

With that said, let me pick out two items, = one of which I agree with
on substance and one of which I disagree = with. These aren't exhaustive
but are merely designed to help lay out = the nature of my objection.


> The publication language of = the series is, and shall remain, English.
> No action shall be = taken which will prohibit the publication of
> translations of the = RFC series in other languages, but the normative
> content = language of an RFC shall remain English.

As I am a native English = speaker and my command of other languages is
poor, I would be opposed = to any change of the RFC series into some
other language. However, I = think that if we got to the point where the
RSWG, the community, and = the RSAB (which, note, in its current state,
effectively requires = agreement from either the IAB or the IESG because
they collectively = control 3 members) thought it was best to change to
some other = language, that seems like it would be entirely
appropriate. For that = reason, I am against a statement in this
document that biases against = that change.


> As a world-class publication, quality, = readability and accuracy are
> key to the success of the RFC = Series. The publication process is
> designed in part to enhance = those characteristics.  Unfortunately,
> those ideals are = sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in
> speed of = publication.  Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the
> = expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the
> = approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the = RSAB.

First, I don't really know what it would mean for the RFC = Series to be
a "world-class publication series" (though, = given the rather uneven
quality level, I suspect that under many = definitions it would not
be). In any case, I don't think that this = kind of patting ourselves on
the back belongs in this document. = Second, the right set of editorial
procedures for documents is = precisely the kind of issue which the RSWG
ought to be resolving--and = indeed has been the topic of active
debate--so it's entirely = inappropriate for this document to rule
it out of = scope.


Finally, I'm quite surprised to see the LLC named as = having to sign
off on any of this. When the LLC was first formed we = took great pains
to ensure that it was subordinate to the community. = This seems
entirely inconsistent with giving it a veto over community = decisions,
and mostly functions to make change = harder.

-Ekr










------=_NextPart_000_0365_01D7D7A2.35B028D0-- From nobody Fri Nov 12 00:49:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36C93A13D6 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cp8T9_RamRvN for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 783713A13D9 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (vs1.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.121]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AC8nUV3019786; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 GMT Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADC64604B; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA5D4603D; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs1.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.2.119]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AC8nT02030358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:29 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Eric Rescorla'" Cc: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:30 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0360_01D7D7A2.356711E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ag8VneQClAmzxAIuh0VrAdzDhpoCCbchtQHzo20wq7ekZkA= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.2.119 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26524.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--14.684-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--14.684-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26524.006 X-TMASE-Result: 10--14.683900-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO3xIbpQ8BhdbI61Z+HJnvsOnhhGhPnmWEsZSz1vvG+0mrXQ PQH2e5fTl7ZZMV4fSQvJROKaj0N2cxt/FEV6QNBCAjoaSw0EjFXd+v0cJIidHx/Nr4idxLx/2Uw BLM8az1RrnzffrBJvTWJAGiBp7WzYoqesYRoqSFkpoxDq3DugMgEoHzC4m9uQWoQBC/aPk1tod8 I+JIk1pUnB7EMnenbEl4rY1LtHwFgH3J9/BJ2gR7WmSdbgUK0wqQd+Hs7Yv7t7eGs179ltWd+YY +k7ZT3Sky1K8KjjA1wnSMm0OYb8KlyRl7ud1OpGikdH3EQaETXOo//J/EA1Qbu0Y6RgIR3vaxZl X1gwMFs4HtM8wYm/tlN8H6JGT+ik6MYzUG9B7ZL0hv/rD7WVZOBwxa/RDufi/0Cnf486TSqhPTx 3lW8C2Qljj/fWygC/9iIj8njgBSs158EdyYsSY0wK/QP9kPgMBp2BxTcCYaSuNd+pu3dTGrTX3s LJiXhWZRUjkVFROF4EUYdSGQN9slq/w+Qp55pk71Wx2uUbPLf9sV9Tla1qi1cbfIj2Ta9sh80vs P8cwQ4odYefEiLfeYPbw023vELIKQF5X/V3WxnfSQNpZkETVNBO21OxlsovBxHTXJpH4UFyYyYB ymq600WEPqaKwI1R1XkffagVcE40JqyH0arQJCYRREGYqtmUfYraJ2bpuF6OHxbnkniIp5CKq9T c+nbojSJ3SkiGrFM7DnbwOZ7v8AO3Ypg23Gu4ZjQijgrFvzoj8dL4lJnXroVMrooKmT4ML+n8SK WxKYv3aCtTBCBhl3k48PxckV+klcWN/Q0QByzNLFLQ56TBXBe9CQaLe2PPhUfR2rvBju6NM5hC9 rjLqVFXNL1spI4ji9FVv3lzsTecXlm9juhnO4iOE5Mqh5PYnHoMZWSwwlza1wtBiAT10R4kHjZv 2IjeUDxtUhYTZp2gVQsF21FkEQ== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:49:41 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0360_01D7D7A2.356711E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks. =20 Good to know this opinion. I think we can take =E2=80=9Cseparate document with normative = reference=E2=80=9D off the table, then. We can go back to discussing =E2=80=9Cinclude text in the base = document.=E2=80=9D =20 Cheers, Adrian =20 From: Eric Rescorla =20 Sent: 12 November 2021 00:17 To: Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed =20 =20 =20 On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adrian Farrel > wrote: I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by = discussing this if there is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6 =20 How would people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative = reference from the base document? That would allow the base document to = be approved, but not published until we had agreed on both texts. =20 I would object to this for the same reason as I object to it being = incorporated. =20 -Ekr =20 =20 A =20 From: Rfced-future > On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50 To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: rfced-future@iab.org ; Stephen Farrell = > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed =20 =20 =20 On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter = > = wrote: =20 On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: Hiya, On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Whether it's in *this* document or a companion document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) = seems less important to me. I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just = seems like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous = RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. =20 I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which = certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and = worked on now. =20 If we think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and = create -bis documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for = changing =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating = =E2=80=9Ccore principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these = together going forward would likely be a disservice to both topics. =20 Tommy =20 Brian I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document existing principles from "within" the existing system. I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a significant probability that many people will want a break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. If there are any serious disagreements on principles like these then we'll be way better off if we know that now rather than only discover it later. Cheers, S. --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org = https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future =20 --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org =20 https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future ------=_NextPart_000_0360_01D7D7A2.356711E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks.

 

Good to = know this opinion.

I think we can take = =E2=80=9Cseparate document with normative reference=E2=80=9D off the = table, then.

We can go back to discussing = =E2=80=9Cinclude text in the base = document.=E2=80=9D

 

Cheers,

Adrian

 

From: Eric Rescorla = <ekr@rtfm.com>
Sent: 12 November 2021 = 00:17
To: Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: = rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC = Principles - long delayed

 

 

 

On = Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> = wrote:

I = don=E2=80=99t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by discussing = this if there is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6

 <= /o:p>

How would = people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative reference from the = base document? That would allow the base document to be approved, but = not published until we had agreed on both = texts.

 

I = would object to this for the same reason as I object to it being = incorporated.

 

-Ekr

 

 <= /o:p>

A=

 <= /o:p>

From: Rfced-future <rfced-future-bounces@iab.org> On Behalf Of = Tommy Pauly
Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50
To: = Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: = Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long = delayed

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /p>

On Nov 11, = 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> = wrote:

 <= /o:p>

On = 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote:

Hiya,
On = 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter = wrote:

Whether = ;it's in
*this* document or a companion = document (#2 in the Editorial Stream) seems=  less important to me.


I was a = bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just seems like a = separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous RFC. I'd = certainly like to know the points of disagreement = *now*.

 <= /o:p>

I agree = that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, which certainly = could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted and worked on = now.

 <= /o:p>

If we think = forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and create -bis = documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for changing = =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9Ccore = principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these together going = forward would likely be a disservice to both = topics.

 <= /o:p>

Tommy

 <= /p>


 &n= bsp;Brian

I'd argue = it's better done here and now myself.
I think it'll be easier to = relatively succinctly document
existing principles from = "within" the existing system.
I think when the current = draft is done, there'll be a
significant probability that many people = will want a
break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is = appointed,
and good intentions now might get lost in such a = gap.
If there are any serious disagreements on principles
like = these then we'll be way better off if we know that
now rather than = only discover it = later.
Cheers,
S.


-- 
R= fced-future mailing list
Rfced-future= @iab.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future" = target=3D"_blank">https://www.= iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

 <= /o:p>

--
Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

------=_NextPart_000_0360_01D7D7A2.356711E0-- From nobody Fri Nov 12 01:25:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5BB3A0844 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:25:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Muu6p8CQgBdj for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C95F93A0877 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HrCpt3MmFz2xHy; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:24:54 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <036401d7d7a2$35af1760$a10d4620$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:24:54 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 658401894.1208169-93289633f7925729fcfefadc3fc6f666 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <12EB102F-6B27-4CBB-8CEB-49835B498AE0@tzi.org> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> <036401d7d7a2$35af1760$a10d4620$@olddog.co.uk> To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:25:06 -0000 >=20 > =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D process. > =20 > Questions: Is what we are doing now not democratic?=20 Since we are already using terms from a very different domain = (government) here, let=E2=80=99s continue on that analogy: This is the usual bootstrapping problem you run into when setting up a = constitution. One might note that constitutions typically have elements that require a = qualified majority to change them. It is not unheard of to have elements that cannot be changed at all = (e.g., articles 1 and 20 in the German constitution). I don=E2=80=99t think anyone can argue that the German constitution = isn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D (*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) Possibly more so than others that lay claim to this word. We do = understand the need for a =E2=80=9Cdefensive democracy=E2=80=9D [1], = which may be less familiar to people living in countries that have not = recently needed to rebuild after a takeover by enemies of the democracy. = More generally speaking, my hunch is that some of the differences in = perspective in the current discourse stem from different levels of = experience with these kinds of process abuse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_democracy From nobody Fri Nov 12 01:39:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4D33A09D3 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MH47sLuzPhD5 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C81E63A0964 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AC9dhdx3997363 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:39:43 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636709984; bh=1045bUNW7YPmtEHEV624og1BEyue1evPEIRILCdw0hU=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=PuBd2a+tPHY5G05GLGYGDZSbAbqQGM6alkgK9mP0X7KAadLms/WomkP4LyH0jEWu5 40jhvyjxj7WEMpVpT09nXnI7JDhgEfYwysCIDLUl2aPqxQjvTSCf28TvqwSh6MGNKm G3UrefW9neeq7KR18H11i001viyANMqn0TJdMz+w= Message-ID: <7853cb35-8dbc-962c-c613-f493da723df5@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 10:39:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann , rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> <036401d7d7a2$35af1760$a10d4620$@olddog.co.uk> <12EB102F-6B27-4CBB-8CEB-49835B498AE0@tzi.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <12EB102F-6B27-4CBB-8CEB-49835B498AE0@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------YdH8GWHU0KOz5LS1cfWlw0To" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:39:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------YdH8GWHU0KOz5LS1cfWlw0To Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------G2uyCRUJDS1ZUvMjD4MZSwyO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Carsten Bormann , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <7853cb35-8dbc-962c-c613-f493da723df5@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> <036401d7d7a2$35af1760$a10d4620$@olddog.co.uk> <12EB102F-6B27-4CBB-8CEB-49835B498AE0@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <12EB102F-6B27-4CBB-8CEB-49835B498AE0@tzi.org> --------------G2uyCRUJDS1ZUvMjD4MZSwyO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------HDBOkONyRgm8nyUtux8soHBR" --------------HDBOkONyRgm8nyUtux8soHBR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------w55PAXO3v41QbLcKjUB9HaB6" --------------w55PAXO3v41QbLcKjUB9HaB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHRoYXQgKm5vd2hlcmUqIGlzIHRoZSBJRVRGIGludGVuZGVkIHRv IGJlIGRlbW9jcmF0aWMuwqAgDQpXZSB0eXBpY2FsbHkgcnVuIGJ5IHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1 cywgYSBtdWNoIGhpZ2hlciBiYXIgZm9yIGRlY2lzaW9uIA0KcHJvY2Vzc2VzLsKgIEJ1dCBJ IGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgY2hhbmdlcyB0aGUgbmF0dXJlIG9mIHRoZSANCmRpc2N1c3Np b24uwqAgVGhlIGNoYWlycyB3aWxsIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gdGhhdCBTb29uLg0KDQoNCg== --------------w55PAXO3v41QbLcKjUB9HaB6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would suggest that nowhere is the IETF intended to be democratic.=C2=A0 We typically run by rough consensus, a much highe= r bar for decision processes.=C2=A0 But I don't think this changes th= e nature of the discussion.=C2=A0 The chairs will comment on that Soo= n.


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port 10024) with ESMTP id v45MeIfYffTY for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 04:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9579B3A0E7D for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 04:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mlW3T-0001mG-TQ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:53:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:53:14 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Christian Huitema , Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <64815e20-04c6-7844-33d5-c11d6e3cf997@huitema.net> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <64815e20-04c6-7844-33d5-c11d6e3cf997@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 12:53:32 -0000 --On Thursday, November 11, 2021 14:58 -0800 Christian Huitema wrote: > I observe that Jon Postel never bothered to write down these > principles, and I am worried about making a definitive > statement as part of this document. Mike is making an honest > effort to write down what is largely oral history and culture, > but it is inevitable that when doing so his personal > preferences get written down. For example, the paragraphs > about diversity of interest show a great preference for a > strong distance between the RFC community and the IETF. This > is a debate that we had last year, we found a consensus that > is reflected in the structure of the WG and of the RSAB, and I > would rather not reopen that debate now. Just to the point of what Jon did or did not write down... I had several conversations with him on a mostly unrelated topic in the mid and late 1980s about why he had not written down the principles he and Joyce were following. Translated a bit into the vocabulary we are using, the answer I got was, approximately, that he understood the principles he was following, that he was ultimately the sole interpreter of those principles, and because unanticipated and edge cases came up periodically, would be a lot of work and just provide an invitation to flame wars. FWIW, it took some effort to get RFC 1111 written (one might guess that from the time lag between when he asked for comments about the series in RFC 825 in 1982 and the publication of RFC 1111 in 1989 and note that, in the distinctions we are making now, RFC 1111 is entirely about policy and not principles). As with my comments yesterday about why there were no statements of principles in earlier version, the answer is that there was a smoothly running system, one with a procedurally very simple decision process, that worked rather than a situation in which we are trying to invent a new (and very different and somewhat experimental) system and doing it around a very complex decision process. There may be good reasons to avoid identifying the principles we think are important and that are guiding us, but whatever Jon did or did not do seems irrelevant to me. john From nobody Fri Nov 12 05:42:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B693A091F for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 05:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5D_iBAkDXZff for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 05:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 967B43A0865 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 05:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mlWou-0001q5-Tu; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:42:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:42:15 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <0BC350500E1F2A00B8B08BC5@PSB> In-Reply-To: <0c97334f-92d3-436d-be69-d1cfe2c9de71@www.fastmail.com> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <023601d7d724$7853a0a0$68fae1e0$@olddog.co.uk> <0c97334f-92d3-436d-be69-d1cfe2c9de71@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:42:28 -0000 --On Friday, November 12, 2021 14:15 +1100 Martin Thomson wrote: >... > Oh yes, we really do have a big problem. There is a massive > schism in the community on this topic, make no mistake. > > We've been walking softly as a result. That more than > anything else, is why we've made so much progress so far. > We're carefully identifying those things we share and > documenting them. >... Martin, While agreeing about the schism, I suggest there is a different way of looking at "walking softly". It is that, rather than trying to reach agreement on the difficult issues, we have walked around them, keeping a large distance, and concentrated instead on procedures and rituals. If there is so much disagreement about principles that we can't write them down at this point --and therefore need to kick them down the road to the RSWG/RSAB-- I think we are setting ourselves and that process up for either not being able to make significant decisions in finite time or for having to declare an emergency and then making those decisions by some process we are not contemplating at all. My guess --YMMD-- is that this group and its discussions include a broader spectrum of people and perspectives, with more involvement, than we are going to see, long-term, in the RSWG. Once the new process gets rolling, I expect (or at least hope) that many of us will go back to concentrating on development of technical specifications and their documentation. However, that implies that the RSWG is likely to be disproportionately representative of people who are interested in process and details rather than what we consider the mainstream of the IETF's work (making the Internet better and all that). I think that would be fine as long as their task is to work out details (including most policies) but very dangerous if it involved making decisions about principles that we disagree about and are avoiding or sweeping under the rug. john From nobody Fri Nov 12 08:25:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B973A0BE0 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:25:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8su79H45_BWy for ; 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Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:25:01 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DC90C9F-03CD-4450-B33C-131A5683D622" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:25:00 -0800 In-reply-to: <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> Cc: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-12_05:2021-11-11, 2021-11-12 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 16:25:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8DC90C9F-03CD-4450-B33C-131A5683D622 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, a separate document with a normative reference would be off the = table, but as Brian pointed out, there can=E2=80=99t technically be = normative/blocking references in an Editorial Stream document. I would still urge people that a separate document on the Editorial = Stream would make most sense here if you want to have text enumerating = the values and principles of RFCs. Tommy > On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:49 AM, Adrian Farrel = wrote: >=20 > Thanks. > =20 > Good to know this opinion. > I think we can take =E2=80=9Cseparate document with normative = reference=E2=80=9D off the table, then. > We can go back to discussing =E2=80=9Cinclude text in the base = document.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Cheers, > Adrian > =20 > From: Eric Rescorla >=20 > Sent: 12 November 2021 00:17 > To: Adrian Farrel > > Cc: rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adrian Farrel > wrote: >> I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a rabbit hole we are going by = discussing this if there is resolute opposition, but=E2=80=A6 >> =20 >> How would people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative = reference from the base document? That would allow the base document to = be approved, but not published until we had agreed on both texts. > =20 > I would object to this for the same reason as I object to it being = incorporated. > =20 > -Ekr > =20 >> =20 >> A >> =20 >> From: Rfced-future > On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly >> Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50 >> To: Brian E Carpenter > >> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org ; Stephen = Farrell > >> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter = > = wrote: >>> =20 >>> On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hiya, >>>> On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Whether it's in >>>>> *this* document or a companion document (#2 in the Editorial = Stream) seems less important to me. >>>=20 >>> I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely to do it now. It just = seems like a separate topic that could be a separate but simultaneous = RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of disagreement *now*. >> =20 >> I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the Editorial Stream, = which certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or at least adopted = and worked on now. >> =20 >> If we think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and = create -bis documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for = changing =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9C= core principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these together going = forward would likely be a disservice to both topics. >> =20 >> Tommy >> =20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> I'd argue it's better done here and now myself. >>>> I think it'll be easier to relatively succinctly document >>>> existing principles from "within" the existing system. >>>> I think when the current draft is done, there'll be a >>>> significant probability that many people will want a >>>> break from this topic, e.g. until an rcse is appointed, >>>> and good intentions now might get lost in such a gap. >>>> If there are any serious disagreements on principles >>>> like these then we'll be way better off if we know that >>>> now rather than only discover it later. >>>> Cheers, >>>> S. >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = >> =20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --Apple-Mail=_8DC90C9F-03CD-4450-B33C-131A5683D622 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Yes, = a separate document with a normative reference would be off the table, = but as Brian pointed out, there can=E2=80=99t technically be = normative/blocking references in an Editorial Stream document.

I would still urge = people that a separate document on the Editorial Stream would make most = sense here if you want to have text enumerating the values and = principles of RFCs.

Tommy

On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:49 AM, = Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

Thanks.
 
Good to know this opinion.
I = think we can take =E2=80=9Cseparate document with normative reference=E2=80= =9D off the table, then.
We can go back to discussing = =E2=80=9Cinclude text in the base document.=E2=80=9D
 
Cheers,
Adrian
 
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> 
Sent: 12 = November 2021 00:17
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC = Principles - long delayed
 
 
 
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk> = wrote:
I don=E2=80=99t know how far down a = rabbit hole we are going by discussing this if there is resolute = opposition, but=E2=80=A6
 
How would = people feel about a separate RFC that was a normative reference from the = base document? That would allow the base document to be approved, but = not published until we had agreed on both texts.
 
I would object to this for the same = reason as I object to it being incorporated.
 
-Ekr
 
 
A
 
From: Rfced-future <rfced-future-bounces@iab.org> On Behalf = Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: 11 November 2021 21:50
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org; = Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC = Principles - long delayed
 
 

 

On Nov 11, 2021, at = 1:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
 

On 12-Nov-21 10:04, Stephen Farrell = wrote:

Hiya,
On 11/11/2021 20:53, Brian E = Carpenter wrote:

Whether it's in
*this* document or a companion documen= t (#2 in the Editorial Stream) seems le= ss important to me.

I was a bit unclear. I agree that it's timely = to do it now. It just seems like a separate topic that could be a = separate but simultaneous RFC. I'd certainly like to know the points of = disagreement *now*.
 
I agree that this can be a separate RFC on the = Editorial Stream, which certainly could be done simultaneously=E2=80=94or = at least adopted and worked on now.
 
If we = think forward to a time when we=E2=80=99ll want to revise and create = -bis documents, I imagine there will be a different cadence for changing = =E2=80=9Cthe administrative model=E2=80=9D and updating =E2=80=9Ccore = principles and values=E2=80=9D. Trying to lump these together going = forward would likely be a disservice to both topics.
 
Tommy

 


  Brian

I'd argue it's better = done here and now myself.
I think it'll be easier to = relatively succinctly document
existing principles from = "within" the existing system.
I think when the current = draft is done, there'll be a
significant probability that = many people will want a
break from this topic, e.g. until = an rcse is appointed,
and good intentions now might get = lost in such a gap.
If there are any serious disagreements = on principles
like these then we'll be way better off if = we know that
now rather than only discover it later.
Cheers,
S.

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Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
 
-- 
Rfced-future = mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
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= --Apple-Mail=_8DC90C9F-03CD-4450-B33C-131A5683D622-- From nobody Fri Nov 12 09:47:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69E63A0F5E for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.218 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hv5eWhYk6fN4 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ABFF3A0F4D for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse200.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.200] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mlae6-0003q2-Ox for rfced-future@iab.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 18:47:29 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HrQyg5f2WzByy for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mlae3-0000JL-LR for rfced-future@iab.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:23 -0800 Received: (qmail 27012 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2021 17:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.195]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 12 Nov 2021 17:47:22 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------yZzVvDHSM60zLOWwsb2Gk0Rw" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:47:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <64815e20-04c6-7844-33d5-c11d6e3cf997@huitema.net> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.200 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Koz8 GFAg0rdmmeBqjhA3CU7O2NIhLJd3vZdNtZEKARqESxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4an1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYrE 1lmm0niBm1lI+Qz5hSzrb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlgTv//51V440MN1VVQcByXa3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlaViLc 8qMxy8rcNEicdsU/QhyhRNnt0RYfyhGzrHEtWJpRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Zuw9Jm/bdZYzD4wtz nPcP09Yq/lrmOIggGSbFQcaLnZSN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:47:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------yZzVvDHSM60zLOWwsb2Gk0Rw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/12/2021 4:53 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > There may be good reasons to avoid identifying the principles we > think are important and that are guiding us, but whatever Jon > did or did not do seems irrelevant to me. My point was that in the absence of written history, attempts to reconstruct principles from oral history are fraught with peril. They will invariably incorporate opinions on present discussions under the guise of memory. That's why I would not want to incorporate Mike's text in the draft. I would be happy to incorporate citations of documents that predate the current discussion, such as the definitions of the RFC series in RFC 8729 or RFC 5741. Both documents use the same short text in their section 2: The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the Internet. That's as close as it gets to stated principles. I might add a citation of RFC 1796, which mentions principles like "not all RFC are standard", "A single archive" and "Rather document than ignore". But I don't think that we should elaborate much more than that in the draft. The RSWG may well start working on a document on principles. I agree with you, John, that such work should not be thought of as an archeological dig of Jon Postel's supposed thoughts. It should probably have to components. On one hand, look at the past of the series, the guidelines that were followed, and how those guidelines contributed to past success. (Or not?) On the other hand, look at what might need to change in order to be successful in the future. -- Christian Huitema --------------yZzVvDHSM60zLOWwsb2Gk0Rw Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 11/12/2021 4:53 AM, John C Klensin wrote:

There may be good reasons to avoid identifying the principles we
think are important and that are guiding us, but whatever Jon
did or did not do seems irrelevant to me.

My point was that in the absence of written history, attempts to reconstruct principles from oral history are fraught with peril. They will invariably incorporate opinions on present discussions under the guise of memory. That's why I would not want to incorporate Mike's text in the draft. I would be happy to incorporate citations of documents that predate the current discussion, such as the definitions of the RFC series in RFC 8729 or RFC 5741. Both documents use the same short text in their section 2: 

   The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting
   Internet technical specifications, including general contributions
   from the Internet research and engineering community as well as
   standards documents.

   RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the Internet.

That's as close as it gets to stated principles. I might add a citation of RFC 1796, which mentions principles like "not all RFC are standard", "A single archive" and "Rather document than ignore". But I don't think that we should elaborate much more than that in the draft.

The RSWG may well start working on a document on principles. I agree with you, John, that such work should not be thought of as an archeological dig of Jon Postel's supposed thoughts. It should probably have to components. On one hand, look at the past of the series, the guidelines that were followed, and how those guidelines contributed to past success. (Or not?) On the other hand, look at what might need to change in order to be successful in the future.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------yZzVvDHSM60zLOWwsb2Gk0Rw-- From nobody Sat Nov 13 15:09:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A293A0902 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:09:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUiFf68fMVNb for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C13C63A0905 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mm29C-00048d-H6; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:09:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:09:16 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Christian Huitema , Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <071046787094BFF2C2765405@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <64815e20-04c6-7844-33d5-c11d6e3cf997@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:09:35 -0000 (Apologies for the length of this, but I want to point out that almost half of it is quotation from Christian's note) --On Friday, November 12, 2021 09:47 -0800 Christian Huitema wrote: > On 11/12/2021 4:53 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > >> There may be good reasons to avoid identifying the principles >> we think are important and that are guiding us, but whatever >> Jon did or did not do seems irrelevant to me. > > My point was that in the absence of written history, attempts > to reconstruct principles from oral history are fraught with > peril. They will invariably incorporate opinions on present > discussions under the guise of memory. That's why I would not > want to incorporate Mike's text in the draft. I would be happy > to incorporate citations of documents that predate the current > discussion, such as the definitions of the RFC series in RFC > 8729 or RFC 5741. Both documents use the same short text in > their section 2: > > The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to > documenting > Internet technical specifications, including general > contributions > from the Internet research and engineering community as > well as > standards documents. > > RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the > Internet. > > That's as close as it gets to stated principles. I might add a > citation of RFC 1796, which mentions principles like "not all > RFC are standard", "A single archive" and "Rather document > than ignore". But I don't think that we should elaborate much > more than that in the draft. > > The RSWG may well start working on a document on principles. I > agree with you, John, that such work should not be thought of > as an archeological dig of Jon Postel's supposed thoughts. It > should probably have to components. On one hand, look at the > past of the series, the guidelines that were followed, and how > those guidelines contributed to past success. (Or not?) On the > other hand, look at what might need to change in order to be > successful in the future. Christian, While I think I understand your perspective, I would draw a distinction between "oral history" as a vague collection of ideas shared, very imperfectly, among some group and well-understood principles that have just never been written down. I think some of the things Mike included in his list (even some of those I agree with) are debatable and should be discussed carefully. And I think Mike was clear that the particular language he used and the details they imply are in no sense immutable. Let me make a comparison to a metaphorical statement of principle I have never really liked and don't know how well it translates across cultural boundaries. Suppose one has general agreement that motherhood and apple pie are good. That does not imply agreement about the best age range for mothers when children are born, best age for weaning, or conditions surrounding marriage. It also does not imply agreement about types of apples, composition and thickness of the crust, or even what is a "pie" relative to some other sorts of pastries. But "motherhood is bad and apple pies are worse" would be a radical departure from tradition and worth careful examination. More seriously, I think there is general agreement in contemporary human societies that indiscriminate killing of other humans is bad and inappropriate. Sadly, there is not universal agreement about several of the words in that statement. But those sorts of principles (and policies one would want to change only with great care) are important and especially important as guideposts to alert a community or society that a boundary is about to be crossed, that the change may turn out to be very significant, and that special consideration (and, in our language, broader consensus) is needed. Do they need to be written down? IMO, probably a good idea, but not necessary as long as the decision-making and interpretation of those principles is in the hands of a relatively small group with a shared understanding of both the principles and the relevant history. However, that is where the situation we find ourselves in now calls more strongly for getting those principles written down then at any previous time in the history of the series since it acquired an Editor who had (or was generally assumed to have) real authority. There are few people participating in this process who saw or were aware of RFC 1 shortly after it was published or who were involved in the decisions to separate the IENs into a separate series and process and then give up and merge the successors of that material back in. Statistically, I suggest that it is almost certain that there will be fewer ten or twenty years from now. Such people should not get special authority (now or in the past) but the memories and the principles should at least be considered when they imply "we tried that, it didn't work out well, and you should understand the reasons before trying it again". Whether publicly identified or not, there have been advisory groups appointed by the RFC Editor (and then the RSE and ISE), since at least the mid-1980s if not earlier. For pragmatic reasons as well as how the appointment process worked, someone whose position was that we should burn the house down and start over might be listened to carefully to see what could be learned, but did not end up part of any of those advisory groups. And, while the leadership of the RFC Editor Function were encouraged to consult the community (more explicitly in the last decade or two than before), that function bore much the same authority relationship to the IETF that the IAB and LLC do today: even where there is an obligation to consult, they are still responsible for decisions within their scope and based on their understanding (of the subject matter and that scope) rather than having IETF consensus determine those decisions. We are in the process of making some very radical changes to that long-established model. Maybe they are long overdue (for diversity considerations if nothing else). Some of us have more confidence that it will work well than others but I hope we can all agree that, regardless of the analogies or inferences we might draw from other processes, it is something of an untried experiment. It seems obvious to me (could be wrong-- ultimately part of the experiment) that this group represents a broader range of perspectives and a higher and more diverse level of involvement than the RSWG will have a few years down the road. Two things seem clear to me even if the second is a bit heretical. One is that it is time to get the real principles and fundamental policies written down and written down as part of this group's work. They should not be immutable positions but should act as signposts for the RSWG and RSAG and as warnings to them and the broader community that decisions that would change them are different from ordinary operational policy ones and need to be taken _very_ carefully and with broad community awareness, opportunity to comment, and, ideally, involvement. The details of how the latter are accomplished are, well, details. The second is that, if we cannot agree on what those principles are, the effort to focus on process and procedures and kicking things we cannot agree about down the road has gone too far and that we would be doing ourselves, and the broader community and the Internet itself, a huge disservice by pretending we actually have consensus about the future of the RFC Series. best, john From nobody Sat Nov 13 15:30:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B008D3A0953 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okdoXKHaKoKw for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD03F3A0952 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id j63so8490730qkd.2 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language :from:to:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=q9tmHmV1+QKiZ25yvTShOgChJX+lu6XtLs7uH0lNXLI=; b=y26+kDqEFUEtI93qNyabAUnUhtKVizQcjcC4vqTjni27coIqFFTS+LjiE7jtIsXXdf Un4tmOfV9YHOwlNhUuq0qFbDhxWZ1NuRw5f3P9tRhx1bTxiSSQdmPDpKCtOl2GTjAve9 m6b4s5WjyJ+rPhWMHvpnG6mH41ChaMfeBAicp539KN8AjViVOVqv7ccxjjfweXUtL5sf G7zmTRwMVpvDbIfCxfoHLTJyCHYquSnpLbFDqx/6nQi3UFd320R2WgJNacyeUDg4Qdxf WV6rDi2U7B75z0UGXKyLxKBFFh30Nks5XkflKrP2kdfmnimEW05TctlrhmaNReXE4meq LzFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:from:to:references:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=q9tmHmV1+QKiZ25yvTShOgChJX+lu6XtLs7uH0lNXLI=; b=m517THC54fMfBcGLPBKTCQaEaMot3y4xg9xmob0j9QjArIzsciddydDkJr7xqwLIk+ FWD0e4bcfx1d+LznRd2U2e5b9GC3cp9v0u1d2n1JtbG6cwJCq/xbkiXsP/9PBvLZrI+Y OpxknN5oLZ1q4teMf6C7q4K7BL+Sqc8NukWA1vA6phbTLf2KOu6tjP2Jrw0+VD9tcTmZ 5EBxY9+eWBXctgI3KmLcaYsEJycuDReWYZjabPri+fbX3Rrb0f1XSXmMP9uNFHO4A692 a54SF3sWdQ0xT8ZfjsGqDyFzWk+afNWui5QQx8j+hewtUlV87smtBchRAKTpnIBKarl1 01jA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZwvVmjVg+xCBa3VML7i3MinYPtZw3Df+Z6U4zDu6hhG6rFUek tTmIL6zTcOVAxdDhhd7F8RtDXyb8EzOb+mui X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwucWIBcKbtSNOVqNMvywom7i95K6Kd2VnKLfCgI+qy+wJApOfOseFDTcbmiyqfCr4QlQ/CqA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2684:: with SMTP id c4mr21521097qkp.19.1636846232274; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm5149264qtw.16.2021.11.13.15.30.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9b1a83a5-1498-726c-fec7-8ff6947d02ee@nthpermutation.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:30:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Michael StJohns To: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> In-Reply-To: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:30:40 -0000 Hi - I'm responding to my original note on purpose.  I have read each of the comments and responses in this thread and I think this works better as a set of mostly general comments. While drafting the text for the principles section, I realized that the current document had a few holes.   As a thought experiment, consider if all of the current people participating within this task group were struck dead, pulled off of IETF work by their employer, or other wise became unavailable to work on the RSWG once it is establish.  The questions are these: Does this document provide enough context and guidance for a randomly selected group of people to make useful contributions to the RFC system?  Does the model constrain the process enough to prevent the same group of randomly selected people from either accidentally or maliciously affecting the RFC system in a negative manner?   For the first question, I think the answer is an unqualified no.  For the second question, the discussion of the last few weeks has suggested that the answer is a qualified no - and really depends on the personalities involved. In the present case, think of the Principles (and yes, Policies Jay...) as a combination of owner's manual, training wheels and guard rails for the RFC series which will allow the nascent RSWG to accomplish a few tasks while gaining experience with this unique and new role, AND which will give the community sufficient time to evaluate whether the new process is meeting their needs. In a year or two, with a few documents completed and accepted by the community, I would expect that the RSWG and the RSAB could propose modifications to the principles as they figure out what works and what doesn't and make a case to the community for changes.  We've got a half century of worked and working examples that make up the current RFC Series.  Providing time for the RSWG to prove that it can do as well as those who came before, and that the new system works at least as well as the system it replaces, is well in keeping with the "working code" model of the normal IETF-style process. On to specific points. Few if any organizations in human history have given up authorities once they've acquired them absent some external or superior impetus.   Delaying the creation of a principles document until after the RSWG is chartered would likely result in no such document being created as it would be a voluntary constraint of the RSWG's prerogatives by the RSWG. The chair's role for this group is to determine consensus on whether something is in or out of scope, rather than, as was suggested in one email I read, be able to rule on their own choice.  The question of consensus here appears to be whether or not the document should be published without a principles section and I think we currently lack consensus for publication *without* this section.  However, we also lack consensus for publication *with* this section.  This will require discussion and I expect will end up with rough consensus one way or the other at some point with some folk disappointed. The text I wrote is cribbed from various sources and discussions going back 35 years, as well from discussions with folk that have been involved more recently in the RFC series process.  While this text has my own imprint, I believe it represents a broader view than just my personal opinions. The text I submitted is obviously not written in stone, and I expect there will be a bit of word-smithing including trimming, rephrasing, and expansion prior to finalization.   Let's try to avoid comma parsing and adjective twiddling for a week or so and work more on the broader concepts. Thanks - Mike On 11/11/2021 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > I apologize for the delay in providing the following.  This is the > aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed > into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series > principles.  I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this > incorporates their comments. > > > > > # Principles for the RFC Editor Series > > The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of > documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. > Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the > principles shall require additional approvals past that of the > RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and > such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community > consensus for such a change. > > > ## Availability > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years.  No change shall be made to the model which would > introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. > Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust > license< https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. > > ## Accessibility > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing > impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall > require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of > the RSAB. > > ## Publication Language > > The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. > No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of > translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative > content language of an RFC shall remain English. > > > ## Commonality of Purpose > > The RFC series is the general publication system for information > related to the Internet, networking technology, and community > discussions on those topics.  Neither an expansion nor contraction of > that scope is desired. > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, > research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468].  And, more recently, Internet standards.  Each of > these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. > If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of > such expression we would probably be poorer for it. > > As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that > non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to > maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these > streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, > LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. > > The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future > solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF > publications. > > > ## Breadth of Expression > > While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is > expected to account for individual expression where possible. > > ## Archival Quality > > Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: > > The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services > for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles > being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve > both the information described and the documents themselves for the > indefinite future.  To meet both publication and archival needs, the > RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the > publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while > acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of > the RFC Editor System functions. > > As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive > policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or > changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and > LLC in addition to RSAB approval. > > > ## World-class Publication > > As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are > key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is > designed in part to enhance those characteristics.  Unfortunately, > those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in > speed of publication.  Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the > expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the > approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. > From nobody Sat Nov 13 15:30:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC0E3A0955 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:30:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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<461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:30:39 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------yKhIJ8KLLwpLPP00FydR4na6" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0099.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::13) To 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Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:30:52 -0000 --------------yKhIJ8KLLwpLPP00FydR4na6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DrUvLPjSv682bOGDnkQH9mT3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i2sm10141178pfe.70.2021.11.13.16.04.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:04:52 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen Farrell , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 13:04:46 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:04:57 -0000 Stephen, On 14-Nov-21 12:30, Stephen Farrell wrote: Cutting to the chase: > My question: why would you (or others) urge us to punt on an > attempt to write down such principles? I can't speak for Tommy, but my view is that we (this particular IAB Program) should finish our job, which includes proposing the creation of the perfect forum to draft, debate, and reach rough consensus on such principles. > I honestly don't see > any net benefit in that The benefit is that we finish the work we were asked to do and bring to an end the present interim situation. > but definitely do see risks. (I also > do see that it might involve some more possibly contentious > discussion when the group expected to be done but as already > said, maybe we're better off understanding the shape of the > rift rather than papering over what are not cracks.) I expect that instead of finishing our work with a -06 version of the draft, that would sentence us to many months of doing the job that the RSWG will be constituted to do. And I also suspect that whatever outcome we reached, assuming it was blessed by the IAB (the only party with current authority to do so), would immediately become a topic for the RSWG anyway. None of this changes my personal opinion, which is that I broadly agree with Mike's draft. It should probably have been written years ago, and I'd still very much like to see the reasoned counter-arguments. But why should this be on the critical path for the RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? Brian From nobody Sat Nov 13 16:14:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AF93A09F9 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HjTfCRrLxoD8 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 122EB3A09E8 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse.mail2web.com ([66.113.192.6]) by mx135.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mm39u-0006O2-7w for rfced-future@iab.org; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 01:14:11 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HsCVT2J0Xz6GJ for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mm39t-0006ry-65 for rfced-future@iab.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:09 -0800 Received: (qmail 20671 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2021 00:14:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.195]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Nov 2021 00:14:08 -0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:14:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Stephen Farrell , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.192.6 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.192.0/27 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.192.0/27@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Ksgz m3En+oKwgeKXVjwPjydKZR2tNRPIxp/vINc/oXVUSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4alsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkgOaZXY1D 3Tei6L4lTC3Kzv6blagzf/fouhj8KehojfmLb5mum9xAXSaS3KKPtTZXWZip9+GhedmPokL8D3vh veYLhIg92+wH02ylfDiSQ0sYFBl6VX84fRovDGikEvLu7vlxwPg5iSJU22qtYbc2zIvhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DCinc6hm4Yij/9/ori/8mFXM bF4myMzDGDFHZjM6aMr8f2PfAQX2/VxKDD/sENV+FmQol/wVQ9P9/5EmbMn7XaXL3VJD2rnYxsyB Wmc9JBgRrnX8DAxpkCYbCO495zH8cQFVnde1UJCYLdcfX0Bx8d3C3+XDgfv5eKilgYPVmyd91wrq tplqj12FE5hu/LdV40wLLIOsx83YIaJAVyCF4C74SEkE6c4B20l6TQK8KmT7ZuM7jUXIESohoO51 xWmU8ZWl4WzxEKtlYIkiBBvn+Cx8mz6/+51ry19BcG4FkCAMpuzLPc2VvAqe6FQiaiKH0BjKjv1P 4OTNlksev6kNmdNBFNa0IY/JLHAmsnKl/dxe8AUy9furwzjHps/+CPPDQ++QLcvZOcS+BJG+m3Ce FykYp15CIK9zGJHbSMTxEpqbZAkeAc5FoBC3+rm7DidFTvY4ocfmWv3Fe9Iziczdq+A= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:14:17 -0000 On 11/13/2021 4:04 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I expect that instead of finishing our work with a -06 version > of the draft, that would sentence us to many months of doing > the job that the RSWG will be constituted to do. And I also > suspect that whatever outcome we reached, assuming it was blessed > by the IAB (the only party with current authority to do so), > would immediately become a topic for the RSWG anyway. Agree. > > None of this changes my personal opinion, which is that I broadly > agree with Mike's draft. It should probably have been written > years ago, and I'd still very much like to see the reasoned > counter-arguments. But why should this be on the critical path for > the RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? It should not. RFC have been published for 50 years, and several RFC Editors have been hired during that time, yet nobody until now felt a urgent need to write more than the very simple statements in RFC 8729 or RFC 5741. There was no apparent urgency in tying up the possible decisions of the RFC editors in the past, there is no more urgency in tying up the decisions of the RSWG in the future. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Sat Nov 13 16:24:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710683A0A10 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:24:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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00:24:24 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------OMaWKYqYBORo7euGKeyk2tND" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0301CA0008.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:3e::18) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com 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Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:24:36 -0000 --------------OMaWKYqYBORo7euGKeyk2tND Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fgXaGYkcBpk3P4Or8pbGaReh"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: 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Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:27:20 -0000 --------------kcvPW1NDUo4BQTRaZpQ60Qhc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------paVe2t48vjEYhhtQ0DgO0DNn"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --------------paVe2t48vjEYhhtQ0DgO0DNn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2SapzzqeYXeG4o4Zt0A7Q5Wt" --------------2SapzzqeYXeG4o4Zt0A7Q5Wt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpPbiAxNC8xMS8yMDIxIDAwOjE0LCBDaHJpc3RpYW4gSHVpdGVtYSB3cm90 ZToNCj4+IHRpbGzCoHZlcnnCoG11Y2jCoGxpa2XCoHRvwqBzZWXCoHRoZcKgcmVhc29uZWQN Cj4+IGNvdW50ZXItYXJndW1lbnRzLsKgQnV0wqB3aHnCoHNob3VsZMKgdGhpc8KgYmXCoG9u wqB0aGXCoGNyaXRpY2FswqBwYXRowqBmb3INCj4+IHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIE1vZGVsIChW ZXJzaW9uIDMpPyANCj4gDQo+IEl0IHNob3VsZCBub3QuIA0KDQpXZSBkaXNhZ3JlZS4NCg0K PiBSRkMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBmb3IgNTAgeWVhcnMsIGFuZCBzZXZlcmFsIFJG QyANCj4gRWRpdG9ycyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gaGlyZWQgZHVyaW5nIHRoYXQgdGltZSwgeWV0IG5v Ym9keSB1bnRpbCBub3cgZmVsdCBhIA0KPiB1cmdlbnQgbmVlZCB0byB3cml0ZSBtb3JlIHRo YW4gdGhlIHZlcnkgc2ltcGxlIHN0YXRlbWVudHMgaW4gUkZDIDg3Mjkgb3IgDQo+IFJGQyA1 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m12sm6624242pfk.27.2021.11.13.16.37.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:37:28 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen Farrell , Christian Huitema , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 13:37:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:37:36 -0000 Stephen, below... On 14-Nov-21 13:27, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 14/11/2021 00:14, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> till=C2=A0very=C2=A0much=C2=A0like=C2=A0to=C2=A0see=C2=A0the=C2=A0rea= soned >>> counter-arguments.=C2=A0But=C2=A0why=C2=A0should=C2=A0this=C2=A0be=C2= =A0on=C2=A0the=C2=A0critical=C2=A0path=C2=A0for >>> the RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? >> >> It should not. >=20 > We disagree. >=20 >> RFC have been published for 50 years, and several RFC >> Editors have been hired during that time, yet nobody until now felt a >> urgent need to write more than the very simple statements in RFC 8729 = or >> RFC 5741. There was no apparent urgency in tying up the possible >> decisions of the RFC editors in the past, there is no more urgency in >> tying=C2=A0up=C2=A0the=C2=A0decisions=C2=A0of=C2=A0the=C2=A0RSWG=C2=A0= in=C2=A0the=C2=A0future. >=20 > The above is true. But we've afaik only had one rfc editor > who resigned at least in part as a result of the effects of > the set of differences in opinion I mentioned in my last > mail. So without blaming anyone for that having happened, > I don't think business-as-usual describes the situation. It doesn't. But my understanding of our job here is to create a forum in which such differences in opinion can be resolved, rather than to resolve them. Brian From nobody Sat Nov 13 16:51:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C003A0A41 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:51:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wARoMHoX2Nr5 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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00:51:17 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Christian Huitema , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------wGtCMgYXzstWTkLe6CmeN2Qu" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0801CA0065.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com 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Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 00:51:36 -0000 --------------wGtCMgYXzstWTkLe6CmeN2Qu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------n3dxU0N7Wj47LsdlkKnS04Qa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , Christian Huitema , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> 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<7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 01:01:07 -0000 From where I sit, the structure of the forum we are creating, and the restriction / permissions on the parts of it, assume some form of agreement on principles. If, as now appears, we do not agree on those principles, then creating that forum seems to be counter-productive. To take it a step further, having that forum decide anything other than these principles, once it is created without them, would appear to be a recipe for disaster and conversations based on differing unstated assumptions. Claiming we have successfully completed our task here when we have created such a setup seems to be at best misleading to those who tasked us. I happen to think that Mike's proposals are a good start. I think it is even more important to actually face the issues. Saying "but, but, we were almost done..." misses the point. Yours, Joel On 11/13/2021 7:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Stephen, > > below... > > On 14-Nov-21 13:27, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 14/11/2021 00:14, Christian Huitema wrote: >>>> till very much like to see the reasoned >>>> counter-arguments. But why should this be on the critical path for >>>> the RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? >>> >>> It should not. >> >> We disagree. >> >>> RFC have been published for 50 years, and several RFC >>> Editors have been hired during that time, yet nobody until now felt a >>> urgent need to write more than the very simple statements in RFC 8729 or >>> RFC 5741. There was no apparent urgency in tying up the possible >>> decisions of the RFC editors in the past, there is no more urgency in >>> tying up the decisions of the RSWG in the future. >> >> The above is true. But we've afaik only had one rfc editor >> who resigned at least in part as a result of the effects of >> the set of differences in opinion I mentioned in my last >> mail. So without blaming anyone for that having happened, >> I don't think business-as-usual describes the situation. > > It doesn't. But my understanding of our job here is to create > a forum in which such differences in opinion can be resolved, > rather than to resolve them. > >    Brian > From nobody Sat Nov 13 18:31:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0013A0B9E for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:31:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2l9pvk3LP4-f for ; 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Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:30:52 -0800 (PST) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-7A12B2DD-D2A1-4A18-A792-7B673288696B Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit MIME-version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Christian Huitema , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk, rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:30:51 -0800 Message-id: <90A48542-0A77-4F77-9BC4-BA03764A58D0@apple.com> References: To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C45) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-14_01:2021-11-11, 2021-11-13 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 02:31:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7A12B2DD-D2A1-4A18-A792-7B673288696B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I agree with Brian and Christian=E2=80=99s point that this discussion about p= rinciples does not need to block the definition of the RFC Editor Model v3. Speaking as a current IAB member, we have a purely practical matter at hand a= bout how to organize the responsibilities of the RFC editor. We have an inte= rim RFC editor whose time and service we need to respect by making good prog= ress in this group. If we have any points here that will change substantiall= y the requirements for how the various new bodies are organized, then we sho= uld tackle them in this document. However, the topics being discussed here=E2=80=94while valuable to discuss=E2= =80=94do not seem to change the structure of the RFC Editor Model. Instead, t= hese principles are guidelines and advice that could be imparted upon and di= scussed with the bodies established by the v3 model document. This is someth= ing this program can choose to take on, or can be a task done with the newly= formed bodies. I would also note that this program does not need to reconcile all disagreem= ents in perspectives on the RFC series. Rather, it is about coming to commun= ity consensus on the RFC editor model. If we can come to an agreement, as we= have, on how to organize the RFC editor model, the program will have succee= ded=E2=80=94even if there remain disagreements about how to describe the vir= tues and faults of the RFC series itself, or disagreements about how the ser= ies should evolve. We do not need to chart out the entire future of the seri= es now. Instead, the task is to ensure that it has a structure in which it c= an continue effectively into the future.=20 Best, Tommy > On Nov 13, 2021, at 4:51 PM, Stephen Farrell w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hiya, >=20 >> On 14/11/2021 00:37, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> my understanding of our job here is to create >> a forum in which such differences in opinion can be resolved, >> rather than to resolve them. >=20 > Fair enough. Having been on the IAB when this programme was > chartered, I can say that's not my impression. That said, it > is also true that I don't recall there being an explicitly > agreed take on the above (within the IAB or more broadly) > at that time. >=20 > I'd also note that I don't recall this programme having had > any discussion about enabling the RSWG to be successful in > such discussions. So if that were (part of) our purpose then > we've not yet considered that goal I think. (*) >=20 > Instead, I think we were expected to make progress on the > substance of resolving the various conflicting positions, > and work remains on that (that could be achieved if we had > a set of agreed, documented, principles for the series > perhaps). >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > (*) I'm not disparaging what has been done by the programme > so far - figuring out a new and more sensible setup for the > RPC vis-a-vis the R(C)SE and community was absolutely > necessary and I think has mostly been well achieved without > so far having succeeded in reconciling the differing sets of > opinions that do seem to exist wrt principles. --Apple-Mail-7A12B2DD-D2A1-4A18-A792-7B673288696B Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc; x-apple-part-url=CF3A646A-1F32-43F7-BDA3-668A40D87248 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 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GsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN2OE=0D= =0A0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS=0D=0AoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frk= m6K7IKP=0D=0A3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG= 8QUe0s2WeWIys=0D=0As6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8= fST=0D=0A=3D40Nd=0D=0A-----END=20PGP=20PUBLIC=20KEY=20BLOCK-----= --Apple-Mail-7A12B2DD-D2A1-4A18-A792-7B673288696B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail-7A12B2DD-D2A1-4A18-A792-7B673288696B-- From nobody Sat Nov 13 18:35:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911513A0BA8; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:35:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flFyJyjaeBSp; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE0353A0BA6; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mm5Mn-0004O2-Lc; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 21:35:37 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 21:35:31 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , Stephen Farrell , Christian Huitema , Tommy Pauly , adrian@olddog.co.uk cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <848390E0047462B079EC0CF9@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <8baf1fdd-3e45-ec7a-525f-0c6c64bde73b@gmail.com> <7bb71515-a2d4-8302-5419-7bcf10f46c2c@cs.tcd.ie> <11eeec2e-ae11-6477-61a1-82c90b92388b@gmail.com> <02e701d7d748$29c459b0$7d4d0d10$@olddog.co.uk> <035f01d7d7a2$35662780$a0327680$@olddog.co.uk> <24E826F0-444B-45FE-B3FE-2D439EC13265@apple.com> <461c65a0-11c6-6278-7dcd-ecdce6417402@cs.tcd.ie> <40581d68-ebac-f9d2-ce52-52eea03dab28@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 02:35:53 -0000 --On Sunday, November 14, 2021 13:37 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Stephen, >=20 > below... >=20 > On 14-Nov-21 13:27, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>=20 >> Hiya, >>=20 >> On 14/11/2021 00:14, Christian Huitema wrote: >>>> = till=C2=A0very=C2=A0much=C2=A0like=C2=A0to=C2=A0see=C2=A0the=C2=A0= reasoned >>>> = counter-arguments.=C2=A0But=C2=A0why=C2=A0should=C2=A0this=C2=A0b= e=C2=A0on=C2=A0the=C2=A0cr >>>> itical=C2=A0path=C2=A0for the RFC Editor Model (Version 3)? >>>=20 >>> It should not. >>=20 >> We disagree. >>=20 >>> RFC have been published for 50 years, and several RFC >>> Editors have been hired during that time, yet nobody until >>> now felt a urgent need to write more than the very simple >>> statements in RFC 8729 or RFC 5741. There was no apparent >>> urgency in tying up the possible decisions of the RFC >>> editors in the past, there is no more urgency in >>> = tying=C2=A0up=C2=A0the=C2=A0decisions=C2=A0of=C2=A0the=C2=A0RSWG=C2= =A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0future. >>=20 >> The above is true. But we've afaik only had one rfc editor >> who resigned at least in part as a result of the effects of >> the set of differences in opinion I mentioned in my last >> mail. So without blaming anyone for that having happened, >> I don't think business-as-usual describes the situation. >=20 > It doesn't. But my understanding of our job here is to create > a forum in which such differences in opinion can be resolved, > rather than to resolve them. Brian, With the understanding that I think I am mostly, if not entirely, in agreement with Stephen and I strongly agree with Joel's conclusion: 'I think it is even more important to actually face the issues. Saying "but, but, we were almost done..." misses the point.' let me address two of your comments. =20 First, we've had lots of RFC Editors (title changes aside). With the exception of Jon Postel, every one of them has taken the job over from someone with similar authority and a very similar role and has had advisors who could provide advice about principles -- including criteria for success, which is not explicitly on Mike's list-- and continuity with the previous holder of the position. With the exception of Bob Braden, each of them had something of a transition period and/or some opportunity to consult with their predecessors (in Bob's case, he had Joyce Reynolds available and Joyce was a much larger part of the Postel-era RFC Editor Function than most people then or later have recognized [1]. If this group had concluded that the right path forward was to stay with (but tune) the organizational structures and authority relationships of the past, including retaining the principle of a strong RSE, with more or less the same selection criteria that led us to Heather (and vice versa), then, while Mike might disagree, I wouldn't be feeling great urgency to write principles down now either. And, when the new RSE was in place, I'd be in the front of the line begging Heather to talk with the new appointee. But we have made other decisions, decisions that are not only not business as usual but that specify a catastrophic [2] set of changes, with a very weak RSCE and the RSE function replaced by two committees, increased autonomy and authority for the RPC, and arguments about whether there is any ultimate authority and who or what has it. We also have not only failed to articulate the principles about the Series (as distinct from principles about openness and community participation and control) on which we are making those decisions, we have not even articulated the success criteria for the series and the new structures (different from declaring ourselves done and hence successful). = That worries me. It interacts strongly with the questions of how we determine that fundamental changes are needed to what we have produced and then how to start a process that makes them. Putting that back entirely onto the judgment of the IAB contradicts one of the goals with which I thing this efforts was started, i.e., getting the IAB out of the authority chain for the Series except as a participating Stream.=20 What would worry me even more would be our saying to the RSWG "you get to determine whether you and/or the Series are succeeding with no criteria other than who (or which faction) can make the most noise" [3]. =20 >From a slightly different perspective, if we intend the RSWG to be the forum in which decisions about the principles or success criteria for the Series are to be developed and worked out, then maybe we have serious overspecified many other things and should just establish the RSWG and maybe the RSAB and let them sort everything else out? Should we, for example, really have spent time concluding that there should be an RSCE and how that position is defined rather than just telling the RSWG that maybe the process might need some professional publications advice and let them sort that out? I think we made the right decisions there, but these principles and/or a clear definition of success for the Series, are, IMO, actually more important so I think a "kick it down the road and leave definitions of principle to the future" decision would be a real failure on our part. And, if the problem isn't that we don't want to spend time writing principles down but that we have such profound disagreements about what they are that we couldn't agree, then I suggest there is no basis for reaching a conclusion about whether this group has succeed and whether the draft(s) solve the problem we set out to solve... and that the community should reject them and us. I don't think things are nearly that bad. Do you? best, john [1] IMO, for all the wrong reasons. [2] I hope only in the mathematical sense. [3] The history of working groups or equivalent saying, especially when there are no success criteria going in, that they have failed and need to be replaced is rather grim. >=20 > Brian From nobody Sat Nov 13 18:36:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547073A0BCE for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:36:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMmDzz7O2I72 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A4413A0C9C for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id p2so27055698uad.11 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:36:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Wki2MegAzgvfdQR89ca7jTQx+eljjmIOPZMlFV9OzHs=; b=eZPgWRw9/aJ9GIYrvh9wdBSmSNeL6ss/gs5CUP3SBd/Dm/uwabn8xDCNZZ4XoFGfpG OmSjIqA3RH8AcqbtJWUWU0bktf6ac/WsGnk/tFVz86o5U6Jg2wW/KpqKEIfXgUsSb8ZC qu/PTHUzqZdXuCiUxbd3/7PIAukNVf9U+P7ZiucuzloY4Fukf1psIlDNY7EzODugLNUs 1WgLKKEVdtsTCbKJehXLbLlEPvxPpi3S7EnX5mGEQ46SjWYS8d3UwcD16qYp0dpg2iX0 rQnL7jnMWfZUQNiyLw3Bo4Kfg23adE8kGVU/2MLRsYUR5MBRVf7i82lpiNAWJlYrqBj3 dmkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Wki2MegAzgvfdQR89ca7jTQx+eljjmIOPZMlFV9OzHs=; b=DlZOt0zyy1fmelRAoZlx6+GHy3YM1clunfYkdRFDhOG7PgnyDiJSYN1llu0ZM49Cw+ kJbp366Ke5Ug8oIrluYFGuGjqjX5Npi0VHQRvb4k4MYbgIi565nZKtOs9kZ7ogX9nQdL M4xsB/V6ZzL73/HKfQTIS3hZIlYR8yj0aC34JGE3YjgG6QwjdD2MPdMRH4fuXRdDju6C p1/PO4C6iDYgSf0TeZOz9CCZfxWLb97ZsubKY+0PRziILFlZnBn6ODi/VhR07pGqrQrY rKwcABC81tkmnrYI0qD6Sm38D935i+ZnA+pUvnL7eba46yFZSyo3rhUM9DtXrJRcX4Pb ydfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ip8L/W9RP43TWONcP0oZ97lAa92Aw+SOH7wgozOaDtNnB0LMP 7iBdtW6XRnS3Rv4lH285Mm9bd3DILvvjjQP2XrBbLBpYvpg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLYRFm5lo9ySgowfU7wZSWlq90WYFQ07MMXmCRsGrW8kL0HcTvCXFSYFrVq37QPeNJKwXEZaWg/taE5aAqAOk= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:7052:: with SMTP id v18mr31263754ual.90.1636857405622; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:36:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nevil Brownlee Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:36:19 +1300 Message-ID: To: rfced-future@iab.org Cc: Nevil Brownlee Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035cdc405d0b690a7" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Principles, as a starting point for ongoing discussion X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 02:36:57 -0000 --00000000000035cdc405d0b690a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all: I've been following the 'principles" discussion for quite a while now. My view of this is: 1. It's useful to have our "Series Principles" written down, I think Mike has made a good start on that. 2. They really should be part of our rfc-model document. They don't need to spell everything out in detail, they are, however, needed to provide historical background on the RFC Series. 3. They can change in the future. Discussion of such changes must answer questions like "What would any proposed change achieve?", and "Does the proposed change conflict with the Series Principles, and if so, what new things does it allow RFCs to do?" Cheers, Nevil-----------------------------------Nevil Brownlee, Taupo, NZ --00000000000035cdc405d0b690a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all:
I've been following the 'pr= inciples" discussion for quite a while now.
My view of this = is:
1. It's useful to have our "Series Principles" = written down, I think Mike has made a good start on that.
2. They= really should be part of our rfc-model document.=C2=A0 They don't need= to spell everything out in detail, they are, however, needed to provide hi= storical background on the RFC Series.
3. They can change in the = future.=C2=A0 Discussion of such changes must answer questions like "W= hat would any proposed change achieve?",
and "Does the = proposed change conflict with the Series Principles, and if so, what new th= ings does it allow RFCs to do?"
Cheers, Nevil

-----------------------------------

Nevil Bro= wnlee, Taupo, NZ

--00000000000035cdc405d0b690a7-- From nobody Sat Nov 13 18:39:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891963A0BA9 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fdxIPGNftTGl for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEE393A0BA8 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 18:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mm5QX-0004OY-DR; Sat, 13 Nov 2021 21:39:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 21:39:23 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Nevil Brownlee , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles, as a starting point for ongoing discussion X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 02:39:34 -0000 Not long-winded and detailed comment: Exactly. john --On Sunday, November 14, 2021 15:36 +1300 Nevil Brownlee wrote: > Hi all: > I've been following the 'principles" discussion for quite a > while now. My view of this is: > 1. It's useful to have our "Series Principles" written down, I > think Mike has made a good start on that. > 2. They really should be part of our rfc-model document. They > don't need to spell everything out in detail, they are, > however, needed to provide historical background on the RFC > Series. > 3. They can change in the future. Discussion of such changes > must answer questions like "What would any proposed change > achieve?", and "Does the proposed change conflict with the > Series Principles, and if so, what new things does it allow > RFCs to do?" 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Sun, 14 Nov 2021 08:49:17 +0000 Message-ID: <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 17:49:11 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian Rosen , Michael StJohns Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TY2PR0101CA0029.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:1096:404:8000::15) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (114.180.159.253) by TY2PR0101CA0029.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:1096:404:8000::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4690.18 via Frontend Transport; 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Nothing, we agree mostly, but don’t think we should be so proscriptive in this document > 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the detail Having read everything in the thread up to now, my strong preference would be to have something like this, but a lot less verbose. The reasons have been pointed out in most detail by Carsten and John Klensin. Without some kind of such principles, we essentially design process without a clear purpose. For some of the principles, such as English or Accessibility, I don't think there should be wide disagreement, and if ever the case comes that e.g. the language should be changed, I can't imagine that the okay needed from IAB and IESG (and LLC, but that should be restricted to funds issues) would actually create a higher barrier. In my view, the situation is similar for the other principles. If we want to change the Diversity principle, then that would probably mean throwing out the IRE, IRTF, and possibly also the IAB stream(s). That won't happen very easily, because that would already mean we need IAB and IESG approval anyway. Also, for speed vs. quality issues, if a change is desired, then quite surely if the IESG and the IETF isn't part of the deal, that won't happen, but if there's a consensus in the IESG and the IETF that that's needed, it will happen (at least for the IETF stream). So either way (i.e. even without these principles), we should probably be able to keep things together. But I'm quite definitely against the idea of the RSWG's first job being to write down such principles. If we can't manage to write them down now, we shouldn't think it would be easy for the RSWG. And it wouldn't be very easy to invite people to the RSWG by telling them their first job is to try to figure out why they are here. Regards, Martin. > What do you think? > > Brian > >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >> I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their comments. >> >> >> >> >> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >> >> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of >> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. >> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the >> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the >> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and >> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community >> consensus for such a change. >> >> >> ## Availability >> >> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more >> than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would >> introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. >> Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust >> license<> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >> >> ## Accessibility >> >> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible >> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing >> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall >> require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of >> the RSAB. >> >> ## Publication Language >> >> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. >> No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of >> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative >> content language of an RFC shall remain English. >> >> >> ## Commonality of Purpose >> >> The RFC series is the general publication system for information >> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community >> discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of >> that scope is desired. >> >> >> ## Diversity of Interests >> >> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, >> research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >> eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of >> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history >> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. >> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of >> such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >> >> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that >> non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to >> maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these >> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB, >> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >> >> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future >> solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF >> publications. >> >> >> ## Breadth of Expression >> >> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is >> expected to account for individual expression where possible. >> >> ## Archival Quality >> >> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >> >> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services >> for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles >> being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve >> both the information described and the documents themselves for the >> indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the >> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the >> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while >> acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of >> the RFC Editor System functions. >> >> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive >> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, and/or >> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and >> LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >> >> >> ## World-class Publication >> >> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are >> key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is >> designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, >> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in >> speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the >> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the >> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Sun Nov 14 03:13:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E023A03EE for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:13:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L-ABAqTmxBaT for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63C2B3A03EA for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (vs1.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.121]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AEBD5vT009164; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:05 GMT Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4784604B; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B244603D; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs1.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.106.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AEBD3Z6001903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:04 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "=?utf-8?Q?'Martin_J._D=C3=BCrst'?=" Cc: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:02 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ah4sjqKsD1rpUA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.106.70 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26528.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--8.030-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--8.030-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26528.007 X-TMASE-Result: 10--8.030300-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFrxIbpQ8BhdbI61Z+HJnvsOjHhXj1NLbjAHAe47mcoCCT5K q5tyGyvzZFqPDYaaZLRSZTrtRPmIBVeh3E8YtVNyuZBZOg7RfX9m4iSocjSdu4xRWJphhsrc7hN vbVC6wKYySBwobdqTlxE8pJsGQqXtZq5LaqHIPFSFTLRMAFrHXLw2HnQG+TrAwEgSPNlM5Q2gGa Ak4s3bEl3zi/eJ6s3jM8xJ47/LlpDwhYtDtTTwvfIq3+8DQd0oZbvACQZDzTCfcVJ8cL8ZO0Mzo m4p2oKkCPnYMmIYXkcMeFlk3dNgN6YeOiYJ7x75IAjxomarSPAiJN3aXuV/oUSbbPTiMagTUIwz FP+sZrseZH/+PS6yQvaHLdfifP8fqir7ZnKdkvHece0aRiX9WohQfPD8Hiq1sR73pvMuk6+p5ju 8QE/mJJmkmEBuTbaAYYu3WYkCVWezRXVzlcTlNJeZUDMyphfSFCMVLdVJDafO+Vgsri2iAfF1bq tPiQUit0+uQUxqXD6PWx38Q1qIm+7aGm3+mRuIEclbAMYYY6zg02I3oyGU8EQKgRJWvUUuMMfGe vmkG3A2l7BfoMNxPudRJ7BlaBwAJ7/22eq+CeGASxsXx/YbJMqFE6gRdRObEt/W/Pt5w8f1WUYG MIOdyB8FA+pcIGFZQLQ0MW1GC5gRPArk5yqhlMDRReOLgIelAp+UH372RZX/GM3e+u7tWfLUwSA 0pLDO6kGDAGdF18Sp2px5Yn9IdyVZDx+o0Dr6dPM8veyrICZaoY8OZpUOyvA56pGWxGWYhhA7rs oYISpy+ROQfAr1jWW8PzCwSb20NX/1IdgSEt2eAiCmPx4NwNp/U3XwL5kCsOzOncrmCoP3FLeZX NZS4JFOlJCK/1ftnZK9A1nWbvebnur4ZHCxPzv9pLVoUzdvViXe2dCZWjTjgPSqVdDwT4IgBAbP w+z/asepcF+wibwa6OIGB6/m3cIYc7YwT+Vfg0o7yVRpECKwn+PGVed3d2n3Ee4z0B9SIp5Rs42 2B5N7VnB1kjR3Xzjo2qqMpCGc X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:13:15 -0000 Thanks Martin, that's clear (to me). I'm trying to imagine myself applying for the job of RSCE (for the = avoidance of doubt, I will NOT be applying for that job). I would want = to know the parameters of the job, and one of those would be "What is = the RFC Series?"=20 While it s possible to give high-level definitions such as those = currently in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05, those descriptions are = superficial. I don't mean that in any derogatory sense, but they are = general scoping statements of which the most detailed is: The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. So, a cautious candidate would ask, perhaps at interview, "What are the = guiding principles for the series, and where are these written down?" = I'm not sure that we could provide and answer at the moment, and I would = be very nervous about taking the job under those circumstances. Yet, as I understand it, one of the roles of this program is to enable = us to move on with recruiting an RSCE. I think it was Tommy who said = that we should not presume on the time and energy of the iRSE, so surely = we should get on with the tasks necessary to smooth the way. And to pick up on what Nevil said, there should be no fear that writing = this down makes it permanent. It is simply a statement of where we are = today with the understanding that any changes can be effected by the = RSWG. But if we don't write it down, we will fall immediately into = arguments about whether any changes are, in fact, changes. If you want = to see the RSWG fall at its first attempt to do anything, then I think = not writing down the foundational principles would be a good way to go = about it. Cheers, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Martin J. = D=C3=BCrst Sent: 14 November 2021 08:49 To: Brian Rosen ; Michael StJohns = Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed On 2021-11-12 02:40, Brian Rosen wrote: > Mike >=20 > Thanks for this. >=20 > Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how = many of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. >=20 > Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: > 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so = proscriptive in this document > 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the = detail Having read everything in the thread up to now, my strong preference=20 would be to have something like this, but a lot less verbose. The=20 reasons have been pointed out in most detail by Carsten and John = Klensin. Without some kind of such principles, we essentially design process=20 without a clear purpose. For some of the principles, such as English or=20 Accessibility, I don't think there should be wide disagreement, and if=20 ever the case comes that e.g. the language should be changed, I can't=20 imagine that the okay needed from IAB and IESG (and LLC, but that should = be restricted to funds issues) would actually create a higher barrier. In my view, the situation is similar for the other principles. If we=20 want to change the Diversity principle, then that would probably mean=20 throwing out the IRE, IRTF, and possibly also the IAB stream(s). That=20 won't happen very easily, because that would already mean we need IAB=20 and IESG approval anyway. Also, for speed vs. quality issues, if a change is desired, then quite=20 surely if the IESG and the IETF isn't part of the deal, that won't=20 happen, but if there's a consensus in the IESG and the IETF that that's=20 needed, it will happen (at least for the IETF stream). So either way (i.e. even without these principles), we should probably=20 be able to keep things together. But I'm quite definitely against the idea of the RSWG's first job being=20 to write down such principles. If we can't manage to write them down=20 now, we shouldn't think it would be easy for the RSWG. And it wouldn't=20 be very easy to invite people to the RSWG by telling them their first=20 job is to try to figure out why they are here. Regards, Martin. > What do you think? >=20 > Brian >=20 >> On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns = wrote: >> >> I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the = aftermath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed = into a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. = I've passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their = comments. >> >> >> >> >> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >> >> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of >> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. >> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the >> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the >> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and >> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community >> consensus for such a change. >> >> >> ## Availability >> >> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for = more >> than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would >> introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. >> Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust >> license<> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >> >> ## Accessibility >> >> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as = accessible >> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing >> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall >> require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of >> the RSAB. >> >> ## Publication Language >> >> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English. >> No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of >> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative >> content language of an RFC shall remain English. >> >> >> ## Commonality of Purpose >> >> The RFC series is the general publication system for information >> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community >> discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of >> that scope is desired. >> >> >> ## Diversity of Interests >> >> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, >> research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >> eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of >> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history >> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on = networking. >> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of >> such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >> >> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that >> non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to >> maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these >> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, = IAB, >> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >> >> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future >> solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF >> publications. >> >> >> ## Breadth of Expression >> >> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is >> expected to account for individual expression where possible. >> >> ## Archival Quality >> >> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >> >> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services >> for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles >> being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve >> both the information described and the documents themselves for the >> indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the >> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the >> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while >> acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of >> the RFC Editor System functions. >> >> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive >> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, = and/or >> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and >> LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >> >> >> ## World-class Publication >> >> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are >> key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is >> designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, >> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in >> speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the >> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the >> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >> >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan --=20 Rfced-future mailing list Rfced-future@iab.org https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Sun Nov 14 03:23:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31A73A05AC for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:22:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_RDNS_DYNAMIC_FP=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YvT0ubTHYcDk for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (173-166-5-71-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.166.5.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDB13A05C7 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 03:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (golem.sobco.com [136.248.127.162]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00238D7AF62; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 06:22:51 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 06:22:51 -0500 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Nevil Brownlee X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles, as a starting point for ongoing discussion X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:22:59 -0000 +1 > On Nov 13, 2021, at 9:36 PM, Nevil Brownlee = wrote: >=20 > Hi all: > I've been following the 'principles" discussion for quite a while now. > My view of this is: > 1. It's useful to have our "Series Principles" written down, I think = Mike has made a good start on that. > 2. They really should be part of our rfc-model document. They don't = need to spell everything out in detail, they are, however, needed to = provide historical background on the RFC Series. > 3. They can change in the future. Discussion of such changes must = answer questions like "What would any proposed change achieve?", > and "Does the proposed change conflict with the Series Principles, and = if so, what new things does it allow RFCs to do?" > Cheers, Nevil > ----------------------------------- >=20 > Nevil Brownlee, Taupo, NZ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Sun Nov 14 07:09:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816943A0C18 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 07:08:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, 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(8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AEFFmJS677672 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:15:48 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636902949; bh=Ly7NzLhxz4l6c+MMAaPdrnWNWBOq7N6luyU7aDs2Q0I=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=TtqDO24/MB7UYcrbLF4UHR5zwmr8hUAdNrNx/PHgfaG6OgngVcZvos2oKnM8UpJIZ YeRey9jxBpYmVWeIsLLD++mXfOI8qhPVL7MxZ1Lwm2j/Jx+8ypY26x9kmO+rYcmtOa CLGWsOU+Zy36lBdqyU53G3oBbMyfCu9bOcjNEpIY= Message-ID: <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:15:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------kqgSfphz2xips9RzYfWGzcH3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:16:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------kqgSfphz2xips9RzYfWGzcH3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Ya7ONL3H4JXp51o296oFBye5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: 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application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGRKCEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMe cAgA1XawcY7sj9cP7LtBUIQPs5KrHfnqbUfLi+C81htr6L6MM8/Byk76LW4H52QVmAVLS2r13XY2 qC/960NeULyKVv/p1YONy8qp4Nm4CKOGCG1r17709v7ldtx3XdnYptnHYTHuNzzgy2vK4yJWLDIr DY5WknRyfhHj9y6aDTaMAC2PGpDkh2aidA+q5k/ZuKJ/RcDVPEg22MP/hLxefP5h90AoenoC4/9Q TJK4aq1KJk+B6kGX7mRwLJTpGdJ/z3JaNM9Zf6pXMoSe0o4KRZeEZtdgd8ke7RZp3yttXS8lulKe CKEpaeG7MHoxLHiWz5J3+s/ykpDwMQ3PqwSFiEjojw== =sn7h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------kqgSfphz2xips9RzYfWGzcH3-- From nobody Sun Nov 14 07:33:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0B03A0C43 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 07:33:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWTXmmTMmSTZ for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 07:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E38B3A0C40 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 07:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AEFXaqd021575; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:36 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988764604B; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C48F46048; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.106.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AEFXZp9010630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:36 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Eliot Lear'" Cc: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:35 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ah4sjqIBB9SeSAIqfZwuq/YRgqA= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.106.70 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26530.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No-0.064-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No-0.064-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26530.001 X-TMASE-Result: 10-0.064500-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: oTBA/+sdKabxIbpQ8BhdbPHkpkyUphL99+PHtghP8GKKIo9dsR2z7oR4 RLK5G1ihtnOGRi+4J8gAHoQ695l6tbw1O9BZkm5i+FIEZETMUcQvnJ25kMIK21c/CedjlcvkjHt x2E6QktHtQhjsVNASrYNOjb5U7I5tr9wTAKg0Z/IW8Al79bnADxsFJd+dRbPf7V/Rrd7FCxI0ln zX2yER2rWrMaVJoeHuu9XCMXxE0GuynnhEYgJ+WZ4CIKY/Hg3Ak2IrxPqtcjbefx4FmMaZTOTCM ddcL/gjro1URZJFbJtZ4wZvWsG2Tc/3BFSI4x0uJmf/fDwXo1WkM/sRHxg/tos4LK+Qy+ZePTtt Y4qu8l+z+KgOy77Nfc2hFPy3/1C42ghGDeB1h8Own+PGVed3d2n3Ee4z0B9SIp5Rs422B5N7VnB 1kjR3X03SfL77PvcE X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:33:43 -0000 >> Yet, as I understand it, one of the roles of this program is to = enable us to >> move on with recruiting an RSCE. I think it was Tommy who said that = we >> should not presume on the time and energy of the iRSE, so surely we >> should get on with the tasks necessary to smooth the way. > > As a point of information, Jay has said here that he believes he will = be=20 > able to hire an RSCE. I'm glad to hear it and I don't doubt Jay's ability to run the process. My point was, however, that I would expect an external (i.e., not = familiar with the IETF) applicant to need/demand the information. I = suppose that I might also not that someone familiar with the IETF might = want to understand whether they would be expected to continue with the = established processes as they view them, as others view them, or not at = all. A From nobody Sun Nov 14 15:17:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715633A0B2E for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H5RnI22eA9VB for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 930DC3A0B2A for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEF54112A50; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q3PPH3ykS1Tk; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C582F4112A44; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:17:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:17:45 +1300 Cc: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> To: Adrian Farrel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 23:17:56 -0000 > On 15/11/2021, at 4:33 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 >>> Yet, as I understand it, one of the roles of this program is to = enable us to >>> move on with recruiting an RSCE. I think it was Tommy who said that = we >>> should not presume on the time and energy of the iRSE, so surely we >>> should get on with the tasks necessary to smooth the way. >>=20 >> As a point of information, Jay has said here that he believes he will = be=20 >> able to hire an RSCE. >=20 > I'm glad to hear it and I don't doubt Jay's ability to run the = process. >=20 > My point was, however, that I would expect an external (i.e., not = familiar with the IETF) applicant to need/demand the information. I = suppose that I might also not that someone familiar with the IETF might = want to understand whether they would be expected to continue with the = established processes as they view them, as others view them, or not at = all. Yes, the flipside is that a candidate might look at a long list of = principles set in stone and wonder if there is any scope for them to = develop the series. =46rom that I conclude that the inclusion/exclusion = of principles should not be a factor in considering the likelihood of = getting the right candidates for the RSCE role. Jay >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Nov 14 15:50:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1CB3A0B83 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 15:50:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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<91dcb9ba-b948-5b97-36d4-00dbcfca4c57@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 23:50:36 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------tyhQe5EQmRcGfscNHYJ7Ksqk" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0301CA0057.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:54::25) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) 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rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 23:50:56 -0000 --------------tyhQe5EQmRcGfscNHYJ7Ksqk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F6qci7qMqeB0Wb0DZiUWpWix"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley , Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Message-ID: <91dcb9ba-b948-5b97-36d4-00dbcfca4c57@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: 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for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BB5F3A0BDF for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EF14112A50; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:02:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X5MOLAOnKP2P; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E7794112A44; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:02:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <91dcb9ba-b948-5b97-36d4-00dbcfca4c57@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:02:10 +1300 Cc: Adrian Farrel , rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> <91dcb9ba-b948-5b97-36d4-00dbcfca4c57@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 00:02:21 -0000 > On 15/11/2021, at 12:50 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 > On 14/11/2021 23:17, Jay Daley wrote: >> Yes, the flipside is that a candidate might look at a long list of >> principles set in stone and wonder if there is any scope for them to >> develop the series. > Two things. First, if you find a candidate who thinks RFCs > are created via chisel, then I think the hiring decision in > that case will be easy:-) >=20 > Second and a bit more seriously, describing what some on > this list have proposed as resulting in something being > "a long list of principles set in stone" looks quite a lot > like taking a position in the debate. I'm guessing, as ED, > you didn't have that intent though. No, as already stated I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s appropriate for = the LLC to have a view on this - This was intended to characterise how a = candidate might take an adverse perspective so perhaps I could have used = quotes to make that clearer. Jay >=20 > Cheers, > S. > --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Nov 14 16:53:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7865A3A0C94 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PP-3wzn84oX for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F23F3A0C8A for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id np3so11406240pjb.4 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O2gQSBeEHfQqHZT6xN3ezHL9NH2mijo0WQul/UGM0HI=; b=MkKieXFew4fZZKMZMPm8sRAtilQQgAN+r3l0MyfkxnbZfkBeaCsnPqC5GO8PzcJp3h 8vnTsLgl7U75jgCFEShJtjcyIpTN3bOkcXa3j546Z5pjWJ7F4nn0OSYgk+PfrkpTXjHL EGJhsQmjCbUgHV3x6dYp9rOYvPEcyXvOsgH5dAkc2jwIK2FVu6MKlF0WzRY0GSl/4kX3 9CHQ1M6twOonoyecOG6yczvjSOsTHudoFgVHtVuBoiD1v5UZnvwb8rXS230GgZy0XIP7 VMDIVju3i2Mqw++Db5BBEBXUVdv1n14dBKta3O+jJ8/cR8n5Igyq1EXXdws2ZTtFG0wr /bCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O2gQSBeEHfQqHZT6xN3ezHL9NH2mijo0WQul/UGM0HI=; b=EXloCvsT/ztylV73r8gi0GjPeBRwAMzJxLde04C55DzI5momzPsOa8X4nLrOAsC50m r9t3I1gWP7r+JFrGY9oBnm+IZu3AZMDDpjibRB2v5NTbl69SGQKtBjx0fXBKuMWxaErz hoofvSTR1GrS/NqK0QPkzATZNh8CiREdnd4+3DIrTt4Kun2T5pG7X5sZ5yrQYzU05smE 1WglpO+3jVzFowVwA3bXnHZFQ8Nbp3EFF4ku2+N68u5GFdJObGFYzRzQkLOk6W62/Et8 D+WDOXYozJU0EcZMIpjQCXS7FQ3oCdZ5btDci2ENMEPwvupU0vcww9T1K0ks4+N2IV2N oCWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531d76P90YjHHF/GmoOJM1RpeM6cIwLZ8itxkCS+Nh1EBsu60u6w lKGW9h2YrhH9zxZY4SF1245IfRTHEZqn+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyOea3tTrSf2UNYMdi0hBHOftItkjMM5l/QBnlFEzcIj0crPu1wQos8GK5iFElFnPkvTmlkpw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1c87:: with SMTP id oo7mr35346010pjb.159.1636937604417; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i6sm12922029pfu.173.2021.11.14.16.53.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Nov 2021 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7dcb2275-0bd5-9ffc-c821-75a35cd00dde@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:53:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 00:53:31 -0000 On 15-Nov-21 00:13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Thanks Martin, that's clear (to me). >=20 > I'm trying to imagine myself applying for the job of RSCE (for the avoi= dance of doubt, I will NOT be applying for that job). I would want to kno= w the parameters of the job, and one of those would be "What is the RFC S= eries?" I found myself wondering what we said when looking for the first external=20 RSE in 2011. Not much, it turns out: https://web.archive.org/web/20111006180950/https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse= /RSE-Position-Description.html Perhaps the candidates were given more details later in the process. Brian >=20 > While it s possible to give high-level definitions such as those curren= tly in draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05, those descriptions are superfici= al. I don't mean that in any derogatory sense, but they are general scopi= ng statements of which the most detailed is: >=20 > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival series > dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, includi= ng > general contributions from the Internet research and engineering > community as well as standards documents. >=20 > So, a cautious candidate would ask, perhaps at interview, "What are the=20 guiding principles for the series, and where are these written down?" I'm=20 not sure that we could provide and answer at the moment, and I would be v= ery nervous about taking the job under those circumstances. >=20 > Yet, as I understand it, one of the roles of this program is to enable = us to move on with recruiting an RSCE. I think it was Tommy who said that=20 we should not presume on the time and energy of the iRSE, so surely we sh= ould get on with the tasks necessary to smooth the way. >=20 > And to pick up on what Nevil said, there should be no fear that writing=20 this down makes it permanent. It is simply a statement of where we are to= day with the understanding that any changes can be effected by the RSWG. = But if we don't write it down, we will fall immediately into arguments ab= out whether any changes are, in fact, changes. If you want to see the RSW= G fall at its first attempt to do anything, then I think not writing down=20 the foundational principles would be a good way to go about it. >=20 > Cheers, > Adrian >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Martin J= =2E D=C3=BCrst > Sent: 14 November 2021 08:49 > To: Brian Rosen ; Michael StJohns > Cc: rfced-future@iab.org > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed >=20 > On 2021-11-12 02:40, Brian Rosen wrote: >> Mike >> >> Thanks for this. >> >> Prior to working on specific wording, I would like to understand how m= any of us think we need something a lot like this in our document. >> >> Alternatives to working on this proposed text might include: >> 1. Nothing, we agree mostly, but don=E2=80=99t think we should be so p= roscriptive in this document >> 2. Something a whole lot smaller that gets at the idea but without the=20 detail >=20 > Having read everything in the thread up to now, my strong preference > would be to have something like this, but a lot less verbose. The > reasons have been pointed out in most detail by Carsten and John Klensi= n. >=20 > Without some kind of such principles, we essentially design process > without a clear purpose. For some of the principles, such as English or= > Accessibility, I don't think there should be wide disagreement, and if > ever the case comes that e.g. the language should be changed, I can't > imagine that the okay needed from IAB and IESG (and LLC, but that shoul= d > be restricted to funds issues) would actually create a higher barrier. >=20 > In my view, the situation is similar for the other principles. If we > want to change the Diversity principle, then that would probably mean > throwing out the IRE, IRTF, and possibly also the IAB stream(s). That > won't happen very easily, because that would already mean we need IAB > and IESG approval anyway. >=20 > Also, for speed vs. quality issues, if a change is desired, then quite > surely if the IESG and the IETF isn't part of the deal, that won't > happen, but if there's a consensus in the IESG and the IETF that that's= > needed, it will happen (at least for the IETF stream). >=20 > So either way (i.e. even without these principles), we should probably > be able to keep things together. >=20 > But I'm quite definitely against the idea of the RSWG's first job being= > to write down such principles. If we can't manage to write them down > now, we shouldn't think it would be easy for the RSWG. And it wouldn't > be very easy to invite people to the RSWG by telling them their first > job is to try to figure out why they are here. >=20 > Regards, Martin. >=20 >> What do you think? >> >> Brian >> >>> On Nov 11, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> >>> I apologize for the delay in providing the following. This is the af= termath of Stephen's question/comment about heritage and it morphed into = a document that attempts to describe current RFC series principles. I've=20 passed this by 1/2dz or so folk and this incorporates their comments. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> # Principles for the RFC Editor Series >>> >>> The following principles provide some guidance as to the scope of >>> documents that the RSWG may propose and the RSAB may approve. >>> Documents or proposals which suggest modifications of any of the >>> principles shall require additional approvals past that of the >>> RSWG/RSAB, specifically consent from the IAB, IESG and the LLC and >>> such approvals shall be granted only after gaining strong community >>> consensus for such a change. >>> >>> >>> ## Availability >>> >>> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for mor= e >>> than 35 years. No change shall be made to the model which would >>> introduce fees for access to any or all of the RFC series documents. >>> Distribution of RFCs shall continue to be subject to the Trust >>> license<>> https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>>. >>> >>> ## Accessibility >>> >>> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessibl= e >>> as possible to communities that have special needs - e.g. seeing >>> impaired. Proposals that might negatively impact accessibility shall >>> require the approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of= >>> the RSAB. >>> >>> ## Publication Language >>> >>> The publication language of the series is, and shall remain, English.= >>> No action shall be taken which will prohibit the publication of >>> translations of the RFC series in other languages, but the normative >>> content language of an RFC shall remain English. >>> >>> >>> ## Commonality of Purpose >>> >>> The RFC series is the general publication system for information >>> related to the Internet, networking technology, and community >>> discussions on those topics. Neither an expansion nor contraction of= >>> that scope is desired. >>> >>> >>> ## Diversity of Interests >>> >>> The RFC series has published thought experiments, speculative ideas, >>> research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >>> eulogies [RFC2468]. And, more recently, Internet standards. Each of= >>> these RFCs and their communities have contributed to the rich history= >>> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networki= ng. >>> If we did not acknowledge this and attempt to conserve the means of >>> such expression we would probably be poorer for it. >>> >>> As the Independent Stream and IRTF Stream are the primary places that= >>> non-standards related conversations take place, and with a desire to >>> maintain diversity of interests in the system, neither of these >>> streams may be disestablished except by the approval of the IESG, IAB= , >>> LLC Board, and with strong community consensus. >>> >>> The RFC brand shall not be reserved at any time now or in the future >>> solely to apply to a single community of interest i.e., IETF >>> publications. >>> >>> >>> ## Breadth of Expression >>> >>> While the RFC series has its own brand and style, the series is >>> expected to account for individual expression where possible. >>> >>> ## Archival Quality >>> >>> Paraphrasing from the introduction to [RFC8153]: >>> >>> The RFC Editor System provides both publication and archival services= >>> for the RFC Series, although there is nothing prohibiting those roles= >>> being split apart. In the archival role the main goal is to preserve >>> both the information described and the documents themselves for the >>> indefinite future. To meet both publication and archival needs, the >>> RFC Editor System must find the necessary balance between the >>> publication needs of today and the archival needs of tomorrow, while >>> acknowledging a finite set of resources to complete both aspects of >>> the RFC Editor System functions. >>> >>> As there may be legal implications related to changes in archive >>> policy, changes in the applicability of RFC8153 to the RFC Series, an= d/or >>> changes to RFC8153 shall require the approvals of the IAB, IESG and >>> LLC in addition to RSAB approval. >>> >>> >>> ## World-class Publication >>> >>> As a world-class publication, quality, readability and accuracy are >>> key to the success of the RFC Series. The publication process is >>> designed in part to enhance those characteristics. Unfortunately, >>> those ideals are sometimes at odds with a desire for an increase in >>> speed of publication. Any RSWG proposals that promote speed at the >>> expense of quality, readability or accuracy shall require the >>> approvals of the IESG, IAB and LLC in addition to that of the RSAB. >>> >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >=20 From nobody Sun Nov 14 22:09:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417F33A0E95 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 22:09:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.941 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.941 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMPuxxAOzfxf for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 22:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B77733A0E94 for ; Sun, 14 Nov 2021 22:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AF69bbS1109912 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 07:09:37 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636956577; bh=6n0GqnC2wq2UZ9EV8xJXBvgkjjIW/NU/d8es7IN2F5A=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=G+mC/SHCJdapHqZkTU2Sni2BWlZiBWv1l9Ued2hcdxBPAa95x/NHB5mnQvI1pIRoH yCxHFaJtI+wXC8/Cto4TEsfcux42Wvq0+w8yeNeJl+B6nMF8chcflis61dy6+Q4cNo 54BN+CBvBuZKWYRWLOsQEO7081YWP/f6AnWzfZ1w= Message-ID: <820ad8c2-1340-82f9-9d91-de9775e7d642@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 07:09:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------aW2nSS78USIN2Zn8jNB0HQfS" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] please doodle... 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A reminder, please doodle by tomorrow.

On 11.11.21 22:44, Eliot Lear wrote:
Well, we're not quite done.

This doodle is for a meeting that would take place if we cannot resolve issues over email.=C2=A0 Please answer by Tuesday, November= 16th.

https://doodle.com/poll/6rnb6gq5q8e7x2ue

Eliot


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Mon, 15 Nov 2021 03:54:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tciLzEBbprTg; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 03:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54EAA3A09F7; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 03:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (vs4.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.122]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AFBrw6R032183; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:58 GMT Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156B14604A; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs4.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A2A46043; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs4.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.106.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AFBruU6016778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:57 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Jay Daley'" Cc: "'Eliot Lear'" , References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:53:56 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ah4sjqIBB9SeSAIqfZwuAeDQXPsBbqFpWKvc6/sg Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.106.70 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26530.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--13.073-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--13.073-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26530.007 X-TMASE-Result: 10--13.073500-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: hwsFDxVJcFnxIbpQ8BhdbJFL3OZgJTJB52mltlE2n8jLkl8e9W70i6IL whR702Zp4K9FmervsqWE1m7YcRRTBHimQCA94R1W3nHtGkYl/Vpj/yGB58mfsOWPsfbn1jth2xR Qzj7kkMyhYKrIigvDWaM11BbPd9FRbXXLcQDolha84C/3iwAgxHFd5+Cf9M1DjiLABC6i+1jTGN NDxXmvcV7rPczTjcg4Ni+cJvVBczSDqfzik/6WerXkpFHAEbgzU8GJwHc+LvUEAQWehyXoZuPhs 17991vRspNshWuJkNc/Gl2UPqGHkkbA4WsmwGNNwRTopFgZxh1jC5+qvCnMfrobGHR5ejtrS8wl 3IZExLJANPw79fYF9z3ItbC5GCF+YlAr3AgnbbX1MIl9eZdLbxg6dAPBanTELraGNlLRahhhxaC HtqPFn1LFWXhmJpwxbN/5p6gxq5S2tlYdo0NnhPHkpkyUphL9+D+zbdY8EikrxUs8Nw/2flcIP2 h8Kmtm6oysViSYlfgkFyQegp0SnoPRdNT5k7TS4iOiEZ2VhWSdjL0yzRNxAlc/CedjlcvkjHtx2 E6QktHtQhjsVNASrYNOjb5U7I5tr9wTAKg0Z/IW8Al79bnADxsFJd+dRbPfpmqkh7k9fxrdRMpE 80x769asgjb4dx/MzNIzlHU4m8/Tf0kse0OHa/lZlPYYWH6dZ4oybycKGSbgm7lSO4VWy4ZjzYc 2LRa+zEbb1nSua8yG9lz1CZorVE1+zyfzlN7yRjjVhf+j/wqLZAVphLW/bSq2rl3dzGQ1DBbGvt cMofyeQCy4s1dyAfaEku2Anr3Ip57HLN7su0xKKkB4+QnQfwDuDXTmYhAz X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:54:08 -0000 At the risk of going round and round, but hoping to clear some things before the interim... If our principles are set in stone, then surely documenting them will help everyone. If our principles are not set in stone then documenting them will not make them more or less set in stone, only clearer. In either case, documenting how the principles can be changed should help candidates know (rather than guess) whether there is scope for developing the series. As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they cannot be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the community), but does document the starting point so that a change of principles is properly considered and doesn't just drift through. I appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we read a spec and take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good understanding that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as necessary and according to agreement. We should not be afraid of writing down how things are today so that we know what it is we want to change and recognise what changes we are making. It might be nice to see the push for a statement of the principles as a move to be helpful, not a move to obstruct (I am not accusing anyone of thinking anything). That is, if some people have a concern that recruitment might be difficult or confused without the statement of principles, then see this as a concern that needs to be addressed. Or, if other people see the absence of a statement of principles as giving the RSWG unsound foundations because they fear that the community will take a varied and conflicting set of assumptions into the work, the consider that as a worry that also needs to be addressed. It will not do to say, "I don't see that as an issue: move on," or "You are worrying about nothing." Cheers, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Jay Daley Sent: 14 November 2021 23:18 To: Adrian Farrel Cc: Eliot Lear ; rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed > On 15/11/2021, at 4:33 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > >>> Yet, as I understand it, one of the roles of this program is to enable us to >>> move on with recruiting an RSCE. I think it was Tommy who said that we >>> should not presume on the time and energy of the iRSE, so surely we >>> should get on with the tasks necessary to smooth the way. >> >> As a point of information, Jay has said here that he believes he will be >> able to hire an RSCE. > > I'm glad to hear it and I don't doubt Jay's ability to run the process. > > My point was, however, that I would expect an external (i.e., not familiar with the IETF) applicant to need/demand the information. I suppose that I might also not that someone familiar with the IETF might want to understand whether they would be expected to continue with the established processes as they view them, as others view them, or not at all. Yes, the flipside is that a candidate might look at a long list of principles set in stone and wonder if there is any scope for them to develop the series. From that I conclude that the inclusion/exclusion of principles should not be a factor in considering the likelihood of getting the right candidates for the RSCE role. Jay > > A > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 15 04:00:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0543A0875 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zzm92J1uGCK for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 271DA3A0A46 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Ht76x6QlVz2xsw; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:00:25 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:00:25 +0100 Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 658670425.478138-f372b5d7236043029f5fded3ee5633ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7792D86F-347F-4D99-955A-162A7A4451EA@tzi.org> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> To: Adrian Farrel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:00:36 -0000 On 2021-11-15, at 12:53, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they = cannot > be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the = community), > but does document the starting point so that a change of principles is > properly considered and doesn't just drift through. We are essentially setting up a charter for RSWG (and the gatekeeper = body, RSAB). Charters provide guide rails for a number of good reasons, the most = important being to give chairs (and gatekeepers) a way to stop the group = from wasting time. If we can=E2=80=99t come up with consensus about those guide rails, we = consider a BOF process failed. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Nov 15 04:21:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CE23A0A69 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IaCkw0M1u1Di for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 147B43A0A68 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id l19so16429422ilk.0 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=J1O4Qnt6xePjwXvy2gJLxe88N+/yCks+goG3gikfxo0=; b=4/jzAJ7KQyFDj09+gB3Uh/yGxjcDXOjaLZIP+gSt0Qj4XBeRE9WbPAx9QWFxPKxPEu Fkej6nTWVNynq1lApbA/GEYA61kxtvjVYtAuqClE9KpVDeoJ+clCXuELJa08Ky9lqwoa ZoJ6/zURusJCmgA5h54x5oYVIKPkFHsxJzXVSZT1VAtCP4mkz/yD5yE/Z91VK+l/uT/D JEKlErXXwrPNx/ygFsbNc+MdOR8I9nZ+Fx/pRncRQQHjOKoBO1ToSr684n0qNoyjEOoh LRp8pVTX6Wj2J6xDDIZhGRah7FWiuk+TIE9lVT1dmj5unEXDSS40jnq1AIazxwga6J/K t2Ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=J1O4Qnt6xePjwXvy2gJLxe88N+/yCks+goG3gikfxo0=; b=I0I8o/HlrlPc3YpHhIN6+erBQa/rGqHyyWnfgqHyiauw1z8mpJqTX7iNHlsltMngge W7/jNJ9sfU6nsSlf7WqBEVDT9e4Io8Yaba4n+vpMnCfuPNHIi4UyqBCfuc4bMc4G/QDG PZTHVGCudZmFb63sF3Znjvbul3WvegGxg1c1XL74+fB+TcF8JnWlS3/W1weQMib64y4W sbavZBJdNSfabMQYaEVt9DfBQgzIU2aZVbE2Beg/PaUlrLCjIW9WnKSGEuM6ZrgdOw7a +UKpsNrRTFDTyl0+CAwotVGvZAhjhqNVVBJ0OGOlDVWCRY9abt7NJPXfiuOC+z4SqFSV k0AA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vssQY09dpl/8rv16HMGgyAQfnkFxRNIUzOg5aQdKVy9IiC26U 93/qW8oegAuGFxC7xng7PQJ2G64ZrnMSnhVCWTwX/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzy1T+E/Dkle+G4xkdviy5s0+YKvsajkeU/sFZxxfiqTY+8DAFQVz2dP09b1Lbjj10xIOe96NDpvAFyqRMglwM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1b8a:: with SMTP id h10mr21925221ili.219.1636978898943; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:21:02 -0800 Message-ID: To: Adrian Farrel Cc: Jay Daley , rfced-future@iab.org, Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6db3a05d0d2d9c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:21:46 -0000 --000000000000c6db3a05d0d2d9c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:54 AM Adrian Farrel wrote: > As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they cannot > be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the > community), > As I noted, the proposal Mike made had the purpose and effect of making those principles extremely hard to change; much harder than the other pieces of the series. I appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we read a spec and > take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good understanding > that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as necessary and according > to agreement. We should not be afraid of writing down how things are today > so that we know what it is we want to change and recognise what changes we > are making. > There is a difference between how things are today as a descriptive matter and how they ought to be as a prescriptive matter. Mike's document certainly is of the latter type. As MT noted, there are a number of deep divisions about how the RFC series ought to evolve. The basic thrust of the work we have been doing is to produce a structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve those differences and (2) to make progress on topics where we do agree without those differences getting in the way. Requiring agreement on a statement of principles -- which will necessarily either be largely meaningless or require resolving those differences -- does not seem likely to be successful. -Ekr --000000000000c6db3a05d0d2d9c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:54 AM Adria= n Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk= > wrote:
As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they cannot=
be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the community)= ,

As I noted, the proposal Mike made ha= d the purpose and effect of making those
principles extremely har= d to change; much harder than the other pieces of the
series= .


I appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we re= ad a spec and
take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good understanding that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as necessary and according=
to agreement. We should not be afraid of writing down how things are today<= br> so that we know what it is we want to change and recognise what changes we<= br> are making.

There is a difference betwe= en how things are today as a descriptive matter
and how they ough= t to be as a prescriptive matter.=C2=A0 Mike's document certainly
=
is of the latter type.

As MT noted, there= are a number of deep divisions about how the RFC series
ought to= evolve. The basic thrust of the work we have been doing is to produce
a structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve thos= e differences
and (2) to make progress on topics where we do agre= e without those differences
getting in the way. Requiring agreeme= nt=C2=A0 on a statement of principles -- which
will necessarily e= ither be largely meaningless or require resolving those differences --does not seem likely to be successful.

-Ekr

--000000000000c6db3a05d0d2d9c7-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 04:28:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFDA3A0A83 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7r7OdEU3RT6z for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4E713A0A20 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AFCRwYC031072; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:58 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4354146050; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3694D46048; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.106.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AFCRvgS012652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:57 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Eric Rescorla'" Cc: References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:27:56 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <001101d7da1c$38b192e0$aa14b8a0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01D7DA1C.38B25630" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHABcZrgTc0EiCYFjcftdW1orzBcgJGp+W0Ah4sjqIBB9SeSAIqfZwuAeDQXPsBbqFpWAFCwd5IAlojl5OrwBAvMA== Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.106.70 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26530.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--22.174-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--22.174-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26530.007 X-TMASE-Result: 10--22.174000-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: u6ojmU07PKzxIbpQ8BhdbBlJRfzNw8afTLZB6U/YaPq23i8Uz6fOUwTg sjIJUJZI/RV3+zzRgjn6eW9GZAD2Md6wgRkhIxdmcLFCzkSGF+MSNknbAcGHqh/Nr4idxLx/2Uw BLM8az1SLKXbCfGzOx9iUCGstbltG4xapGSHYrksNwUVhIF6pVpTb3PKAwoR/j6Xh9k1IeO5RCU Ewqzwr+MPu3laOalLpYvdKTvDNVGYnWcwP3OEnI8Xt33YIQlY7VdZAGAuZKcIoqvgrRCcr6ebWM oxumHGXOelJXrqHws1+oLl1r04ZRPcqbABI0A3bgcvvvRSOOOKp/958oU3WcBT++WnU8gyJzG1Q nWZxDWJ3AArVYKdueA9rW/zFWZKiYseW/o6DgKTB5xi0VO7ouDYQvSY7z58JFoZnYv6piPDbBEQ /g5FxGNLXgbGvEexJSaVfaxxV94+zMJ0yoJG7DsG0UNgaZpYq2gp+A6golza2M1wsSbtrkfdIm8 S+G8+gpL7GITcGzGNPlNWvPMXFkPCDFvXZFmYywpU1WSBl38hU4sxFq6igEVCd7VOgbE3ogV045 u17QddVngNu1PoOXWQsm8avblxzRS5eRZNKL9GL6bUMM+bbIv98fIf4wIXlBnREgaSmvMIiZKSD Fh3GwmJGlus6gUNKBTdFn3JeI7Tq3WC5KhDhQ54CIKY/Hg3AAzmRhRrMoRWw7M6dyuYKg4VH0dq 7wY7uzUkmFwpcz1H6sJSr11VM1eQhhysnheyOqpMPlcGZXgcNLSLPKJ0wMA== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:28:07 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D7DA1C.38B25630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric, =20 I don=E2=80=99t think you should ascribe motivations (purpose) from the = end result (effect). I don=E2=80=99t find Mike=E2=80=99s text says that = anything is extremely hard to change, only that making such changes = requires conscious action. =20 I also don=E2=80=99t see how =E2=80=9Cevolution=E2=80=9D can be = conducted unless you know where you are starting from. =20 A =20 From: Eric Rescorla =20 Sent: 15 November 2021 12:21 To: Adrian Farrel Cc: Jay Daley ; rfced-future@iab.org; Eliot Lear = Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:54 AM Adrian Farrel > wrote: As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they = cannot be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the = community), =20 As I noted, the proposal Mike made had the purpose and effect of making = those principles extremely hard to change; much harder than the other pieces = of the=20 series. =20 =20 I appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we read a spec = and take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good = understanding that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as necessary and = according to agreement. We should not be afraid of writing down how things are = today so that we know what it is we want to change and recognise what changes = we are making. =20 There is a difference between how things are today as a descriptive = matter and how they ought to be as a prescriptive matter. Mike's document = certainly is of the latter type. =20 As MT noted, there are a number of deep divisions about how the RFC = series ought to evolve. The basic thrust of the work we have been doing is to = produce a structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve those = differences and (2) to make progress on topics where we do agree without those = differences getting in the way. Requiring agreement on a statement of principles -- = which will necessarily either be largely meaningless or require resolving = those differences -- does not seem likely to be successful. =20 -Ekr =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D7DA1C.38B25630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,

 

I = don=E2=80=99t think you should ascribe motivations (purpose) from the = end result (effect). I don=E2=80=99t find Mike=E2=80=99s text says that = anything is extremely hard to change, only that making such changes = requires conscious action.

 

I also = don=E2=80=99t see how =E2=80=9Cevolution=E2=80=9D can be conducted = unless you know where you are starting from.

 

A

 

From: Eric Rescorla = <ekr@rtfm.com>
Sent: 15 November 2021 = 12:21
To: Adrian Farrel = <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: Jay Daley = <exec-director@ietf.org>; rfced-future@iab.org; Eliot Lear = <lear@lear.ch>
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC = Principles - long delayed

 

 

 

On = Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:54 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> = wrote:

As Nevil = pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they cannot
be = changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the = community),

 

As I noted, the proposal Mike made had the purpose and = effect of making those

principles extremely hard to change; much harder than = the other pieces of the

series.

 

 

I = appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we read a spec = and
take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good = understanding
that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as = necessary and according
to agreement. We should not be afraid of = writing down how things are today
so that we know what it is we want = to change and recognise what changes we
are = making.

 

There is a difference between how things are today as = a descriptive matter

and = how they ought to be as a prescriptive matter.  Mike's document = certainly

is of the latter = type.

 

As MT noted, there are a number of deep divisions = about how the RFC series

ought to evolve. The basic thrust of the work we have = been doing is to produce

a = structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve those = differences

and (2) to = make progress on topics where we do agree without those = differences

getting in the = way. Requiring agreement  on a statement of principles -- = which

will necessarily = either be largely meaningless or require resolving those differences = --

does not seem likely to be = successful.

 

-Ekr

 

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01D7DA1C.38B25630-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 04:33:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9E73A0B06 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIZLrtQlNu_c for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3AC43A0AF1 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id z26so21085954iod.10 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pvMbBNnIOdvjhwlai+zBpvfLtUoWXekgnb6Do2Y27VM=; b=DGGpgVRx6OKMMDZtufugD4I4ogKjU2+iuxE5MsBkHWCrsSDWwb2UidLpXixORss/bE QaOEEr2rY/eEcNx1EVmiPvP3jvLaM3YHsb30uJRTj2r5F5qP2ZZmeh7S4qzomrzqSJdV f0H1/K1QWfLbkX+qv8QHWe9JsNzwKuY+Zz9UtqUfBBJwG+4lx5kEh725gIMJ5Wu1Wddk q102XpxWhr8v+1ZCn4hGNAeZDsRJp6zd3QfOEs4fPHg5stMd8yYuf5gG8/J3FZQVgl7S sbojYXE+GDxQqmdgWl1ET99rgOkFl89c74r/8vgbe/W0Dh9K7ZoCAhjmG+TMGt4mBT+3 oMgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pvMbBNnIOdvjhwlai+zBpvfLtUoWXekgnb6Do2Y27VM=; b=bUjoujcZLaGOGD/mWoasP3YfkUIMg3iS9sRsuSLs+gejOcOeHA5LzAxVtW6dM4nGSB y7tRgC0vWSz9trezOLJBx6NiWaHVfrm2tJmR1OibOgudWBikFchI60rApR86tqAUFyqw Q95vR4Wj5f4JS4XOc6tID0fy4jG6vklakc2iVNMa3B5KKQ26yUUmDKSVkPCmskozfUKy qjBBitl8TjdOddpa+ezPfOzDMTCATf73Us1vfFyIwQRIiA3lxjux30fhtT37ngnbExTf vbgRVyjyJwr1ojbByP02ok3eCznQCv/vMML6ghtHNMzvysU23/7DUUa8G6lR+ye+jcW5 FTKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311+nz1/gW6Ihp6H5RrCOaNtTPIwLHsKooArlsHac86QmOsdmd5 N7RO9TmPmfOZSm2bVTjXMBd8y9+ov/X4PKfrII/JPzJt19s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5w1eW/tclj5D5FyekDS0bzr67OOT3wyW5jDZskdWT9KwfFHQ1HpL+57qiQmmt3o61scF4l4rHhcWm0zJ9ImE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:734d:: with SMTP id a13mr30060844jae.113.1636979622681; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <16681ab0-73c6-7b1f-5181-3a97b0a9ad0c@lear.ch> <05be01d7d96c$fd9b2ea0$f8d18be0$@olddog.co.uk> <70F68E58-F6C8-42ED-9B71-A7134D7D8E54@ietf.org> <000301d7da17$78ae22a0$6a0a67e0$@olddog.co.uk> <001101d7da1c$38b192e0$aa14b8a0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <001101d7da1c$38b192e0$aa14b8a0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 04:33:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Adrian Farrel Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ea342605d0d304ed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:33:56 -0000 --000000000000ea342605d0d304ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:28 AM Adrian Farrel wrote: > Eric, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think you should ascribe motivations (purpose) from the e= nd result > (effect). I don=E2=80=99t find Mike=E2=80=99s text says that anything is = extremely hard to > change, only that making such changes requires conscious action. > Well, his text specifically prescribes a heightened process for making these changes ("strong consensus" + assent from IESG/IAB/LLC), so I think it's reasonable to infer that the intent was to make them harder to change. Mike should of course feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I also don=E2=80=99t see how =E2=80=9Cevolution=E2=80=9D can be conducted u= nless you know where you > are starting from. > I'm not sure what you are getting at here. As I said before, there is a distinction between descriptive and prescriptive. It's one thing to say "RFCs are currently published in English" and quite another to say "RFCs should be published in English and that should be hard to change" -Ekr > > A > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla > *Sent:* 15 November 2021 12:21 > *To:* Adrian Farrel > *Cc:* Jay Daley ; rfced-future@iab.org; Eliot > Lear > *Subject:* Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:54 AM Adrian Farrel wrote= : > > As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that they cann= ot > be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by the > community), > > > > As I noted, the proposal Mike made had the purpose and effect of making > those > > principles extremely hard to change; much harder than the other pieces of > the > > series. > > > > > > I appreciate that, as engineers (and would be lawyers ;-) we read a spec > and > take it as a set of absolute rules. But we should have good understanding > that specs change, get revised, or get obsoleted as necessary and accordi= ng > to agreement. We should not be afraid of writing down how things are toda= y > so that we know what it is we want to change and recognise what changes w= e > are making. > > > > There is a difference between how things are today as a descriptive matte= r > > and how they ought to be as a prescriptive matter. Mike's document > certainly > > is of the latter type. > > > > As MT noted, there are a number of deep divisions about how the RFC serie= s > > ought to evolve. The basic thrust of the work we have been doing is to > produce > > a structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve those > differences > > and (2) to make progress on topics where we do agree without those > differences > > getting in the way. Requiring agreement on a statement of principles -- > which > > will necessarily either be largely meaningless or require resolving those > differences -- > > does not seem likely to be successful. > > > > -Ekr > > > --000000000000ea342605d0d304ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:28 AM Adria= n Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk= > wrote:

Eric,<= u>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think you should ascribe mot= ivations (purpose) from the end result (effect). I don=E2=80=99t find Mike= =E2=80=99s text says that anything is extremely hard to change, only that m= aking such changes requires conscious action.


Well, his text specifically prescribes a heighten= ed process for making these changes ("strong consensus"=C2=A0+ as= sent from IESG/IAB/LLC), so I think it's reasonable to infer that the i= ntent was to make them harder to change. Mike should of course feel free to= correct me if I'm wrong.


I also don=E2=80=99t see how =E2=80=9Cevolution=E2=80=9D can be cond= ucted unless you know where you are starting from.


I'm not sure what you are getting at her= e. As I said before, there is a distinction between descriptive and prescri= ptive. It's one thing to say "RFCs are currently published in Engl= ish" and quite another to say "RFCs should be published in Englis= h and that should be hard to change"

-Ekr=

=C2=A0

A

= =C2=A0

From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Sent= : 15 November 2021 12:21
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
<= b>Cc: Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>; rfced-future@iab.org; Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>
Subject:= Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3= :54 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

As Nevil pointed out, documenting principles does not mean that t= hey cannot
be changed (indeed, the RSWG exists to do that as desired by = the community),

<= u>=C2=A0

As I noted, the pr= oposal Mike made had the purpose and effect of making those

principles extremely hard to change; mu= ch harder than the other pieces of the

series.

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

I appreciate that, as engineers (and would= be lawyers ;-) we read a spec and
take it as a set of absolute rules. B= ut we should have good understanding
that specs change, get revised, or = get obsoleted as necessary and according
to agreement. We should not be = afraid of writing down how things are today
so that we know what it is w= e want to change and recognise what changes we
are making.=

=C2=A0

=

There is a difference between how things are to= day as a descriptive matter

and how they ought to be as a prescriptive matter.=C2=A0 Mike's doc= ument certainly

is of th= e latter type.

= =C2=A0

As MT noted, there are a= number of deep divisions about how the RFC series

<= div>

ought to evolve. The basic thrust of the work we= have been doing is to produce

a structure in which (1) we can discuss and potentially resolve thos= e differences

and (2) to= make progress on topics where we do agree without those differences=

getting in the way. Requiring = agreement=C2=A0 on a statement of principles -- which

will necessarily either be largely meaningles= s or require resolving those differences --

does not seem likely to be successful.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

<= /u>=C2=A0

--000000000000ea342605d0d304ed-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 08:58:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13E03A0E8C for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qGKDcvRqS1v for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AACB3A0E83 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AFGwZbK1425877 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:58:36 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1636995517; bh=QE+iGWm/aNRiGxM+jgzdQAJXZXOD2uhCZmdXYiIDBQI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=DSQMxraIpfY6M6lkKJJgqpB8X2wJzF8bIxN+DOllLbE5chURrs5m0DWcWJKa3INjL n1XKVn+6Ya/BoL77gDF+UVRuzWy9c2H1VeoGwAEDtPCgOFWQiItRcjxdqCHpHRv8TB DIHAJeIdHJrCmTup9d7OvWpSVkcnEdMgGj0YeNCA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:58:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------BVWhzj4YqjYvOH4z5oWVft8d" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:58:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------BVWhzj4YqjYvOH4z5oWVft8d Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tmwXddRBiDMWrGoXsS0rJCRB"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Principles / policies proposal --------------tmwXddRBiDMWrGoXsS0rJCRB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------PfKAefJkOOKCC6SBnYQmjRy1" --------------PfKAefJkOOKCC6SBnYQmjRy1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8fpxAkBKuoH6ddBvwyNyUblv" --------------8fpxAkBKuoH6ddBvwyNyUblv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBDb2xsZWFndWVzLA0KDQoNClRoZSBjaGFpcnMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGZvbGxvd2luZyB0 aGUgdmlicmFudCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHJlZ2FyZGluZyB0aGUgDQpwcm9wb3NhbCB0aGF0IE1p a2UgcHV0IGZvcnRoIG9uIHByaW5jaXBsZXMgb2YgdGhlIFJGQyBzZXJpZXMuwqAgV2Ugc2Vl LCANCnJvdWdobHkgc3BlYWtpbmcsIHR3byBncm91cHMgb2YgaW5kaXZpZHVhbHM6IHRob3Nl IHdobyB3YW50IGdvdmVybmluZyANCnBvbGljaWVzIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBub3csIGFuZCB0 aG9zZSB3aG8gd291bGQgcmF0aGVyIHNlZSB0aGlzIA0KZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBtb3ZlZCB0byB0 aGUgUlNXRy4NCg0KDQpBbGwgb2YgdXMgaW4gdGhpcyBncm91cCBhcmUgdmV0ZXJhbnMuwqAg V2UgaGF2ZSBhbGwgY2hhaXJlZCB3b3JraW5nIA0KZ3JvdXBzIGFuZCBiZWVuIGluIG90aGVy IGxlYWRlcnNoaXAgcG9zaXRpb25zLCBhbmQgYnkgYW5kIGxhcmdlIHdlIGtub3cgDQpvbmUg YW5vdGhlci7CoCBXaXRoIHRoaXMgaW4gbWluZCwgd2UgaGF2ZSBhIHF1ZXN0aW9uOg0KDQoN CkRvIHlvdSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgd2Ugd2lsbCByZWFjaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgdG8gaW5jbHVk ZSBNaWtl4oCZcyBwcm9wb3NhbCANCm9yIHNpbWlsYXI/DQoNCg0KSWYgeW91IGFuc3dlciB5 ZXMgdG8gdGhpcyBxdWVzdGlvbiwgYXJlIHlvdSB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIG1vdmUgb2ZmIG9mIHlv dXIgDQp2aWV3cyB0byBmaW5kIGNvbW1vbiBncm91bmQgd2l0aCB0aG9zZSB3aG8gaG9sZCBk aWZmZXJlbnQgcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzPw0KDQoNCkJyaWFuIGFuZCBFbGlvdA0KDQoNCg== --------------8fpxAkBKuoH6ddBvwyNyUblv Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion regarding the p= roposal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC series.=C2=A0 We see= , roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those who want governing p= olicies in the draft now, and those who would rather see this discussion = moved to the RSWG.


All of us in this group are veterans.=C2=A0 We have all chaired worki= ng groups and been in other leadership positions, and by and large we kno= w one another.=C2=A0 With this in mind, we have a question:


Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s= proposal or similar?=C2=A0


If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move off of yo= ur views to find common ground with those who hold different perspectives= ?


Brian and Eliot


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(PPS) with ESMTPS id 3cb5cv4bu2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:05:17 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1AFGndXt025428; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:05:16 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3ca9k44fd8-17 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:05:16 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.24; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:01:23 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.024; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:01:23 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal Thread-Index: AQHX2kISonLWytdpVEm4KbeaSkiJY6wE0FKA Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:01:22 +0000 Message-ID: <4E30670D-086F-433C-9E4C-A01FAADE80AC@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21110701 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4E30670D086F433C9E4CA01FAADE80ACakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-15_08:2021-11-15, 2021-11-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=938 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111150087 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Qi4Y60SP3ODJub7WPUBWbt2b4ZEUN75U X-Proofpoint-GUID: Qi4Y60SP3ODJub7WPUBWbt2b4ZEUN75U X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-15_10,2021-11-15_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=913 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111150087 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:05:25 -0000 --_000_4E30670D086F433C9E4CA01FAADE80ACakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 15 Nov 2021 09:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FgKRyPVMCKxy for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 09:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC61A3A0D7C for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 09:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mmfbU-0008hw-V4; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:17:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:17:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7dcb2275-0bd5-9ffc-c821-75a35cd00dde@gmail.com> References: <79d32c80-dd1d-daf4-ae8e-5064a7d41dba@nthpermutation.com> <9525E25C-FD32-4897-8701-F1FB59F4991A@brianrosen.net> <094a57db-b1e0-d988-5550-2fe53add3e34@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <05a601d7d948$982f7a40$c88e6ec0$@olddog.co.uk> <7dcb2275-0bd5-9ffc-c821-75a35cd00dde@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Principles - long delayed X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:17:20 -0000 --On Monday, November 15, 2021 13:53 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 15-Nov-21 00:13, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> Thanks Martin, that's clear (to me). >> >> I'm trying to imagine myself applying for the job of RSCE >> (for the avoidance of doubt, I will NOT be applying for that >> job). I would want to know the parameters of the job, and one >> of those would be "What is the RFC Series?" > > > I found myself wondering what we said when looking for the > first external RSE in 2011. Not much, it turns out: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20111006180950/https://www.rfc-edi > tor.org/rse/RSE-Position-Description.html > > Perhaps the candidates were given more details later in the > process. Brian, As you guessed, they were. I can't remember how much of it was spontaneous, but, in my capacity as a participant in the recruiting and selection processes, I remember several people I/we were trying to get to apply for the position asking questions for which the sort of principles we are talking about were the answer. As I mentioned in one of my earlier notes, we were able to answer those questions because the RSE was stepping into a Series and system that had been running for many years with the same general principles (oral or not and with considerable evolution of procedures and policies). I even got a piece of free advice from someone who was nearing retirement from the senior publications position at another SDO who I thought might be talked into a part time position. It was that we should probably reject out of hand, or at least be very suspicious of, anyone who applied who didn't ask those sorts of questions. A decade ago, having the members of the group doing recruitment and selection just answer those questions made sense and was fairly safe. The new RSE was expected to maintain continuity with a well-established way of doing things or to be sure there was extraordinary community involvement and consensus about major changes. In retrospect, I wish we had written things down, but the widely shared tradition seemed fine at the time. So, again, this effort is a disruptive change (or set of them). We cannot rely on the years of experience and broadly shared consensus we had (or thought we had) a decade or more ago for answering candidate questions. Getting principles written down is likely to help in the RSCE recruitment and selection process (assuming we care) and to provide the RSWG guidance about the boundary between ordinary policy and decision-making and things that are A Big Deal --not to prevent future changes but to increase the odds that proposed major changes in direction will be recognized by the RSWG and the community. Finally, before writing this, I looked at Section 5 of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05. It is quite thorough about what the RSCE is expected to do. However, especially with the cited material at https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/blob/master/Issue12-RSE-role.md basically not saying anything (as well as being outdated), it is rather thin on both qualifications for the position and explanation of the fundamental nature of the Series. If we are satisfied that the members of the selection committee will have enough publication experience themselves as well as the same sort of understanding of the community consensus on these issues we had a decade ago, that is probably ok ... but, if we don't have enough consensus among ourselves to agree about principles, the latter seems extremely unlikely and we had best reopen that section and start writing. best, john From nobody Mon Nov 15 10:08:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C363A0FBF for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRtoNA2QhBMa for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf30.google.com (mail-qv1-xf30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A2E33A0FBD for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf30.google.com with SMTP id kl8so7419438qvb.3 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=gJi3Wo5OpvjsABH40ajTYK4mH5oAnAXYM2pNSkN9Msk=; b=UK0LABW+TSJ6/WxNZHo9aklwb/UGfDL73tBSoS9+0wR3uuAXl8YUDeY4+N98Ta9rIq WnvQQf0Rx2ms5xXN1nyUPITyxvLgXOx7o3Vk8/S19NL7kyIaL/IoEituHrA/wsEkwgV6 rVCh05YBq9xZhcycw/40nRE38nbdwpXorxs7gi6EwF8UdICbHWHi6LtrZdW7n6Dd7J/t VhxW1LTXcnQPoB8YgKF+muX//l914DE8mH+bLcCzvhbtC0iNDZ/fKTT6khQ9n6Tb9c17 ijGw3Y0n7Ugsx5JdGZIFBAdo4Y645ytAVL961l1CaiTKb4DACpreGamxuK5fml3xC3jU hykQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=gJi3Wo5OpvjsABH40ajTYK4mH5oAnAXYM2pNSkN9Msk=; b=xtz3/99YzdcbHpsYewj1qFDrL77ZYAWOPsWnip/I8NENiAh8DPULhcCBFW30pp6wFH UOEEONeDLEitGNAvFdYx7f+P9BTIJZR7J/dK66W7CocqVpJaYnD+juQyyO5zgTgI2U2p wYbLTGrLVDhx6NrxBcb08oDEA+kHyn2gxi6SY07iLMmm+NKSPnmvtvNdM06iuED4llmk TykWSiK3yy/w8lhgGF3oHEgNw1qlQsCzcjIhPdBmlDe2jdPrJ9MYzfJhYOxBkanTY0rp LCWqlttjCjw9DmNvA6zl5CsNzUG101KzGDIuei60R0F+RTg08UN6IZ8PXh++o4VGm62O zxdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pDtg/HIKhZ+WSQGFfnPvB0NVXQz01VcJmpWmgaQ1KgXPKLqNW uJRK3J9qAQfBc2/kEsoFp5BI+5OQLPBSmFaz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2zXgd/suTYaWIRlI9g+Sfqh29t7OM5L0TgkbXB6g8cJePqpZrmb43yHgh818htTbNgoftJg== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:fa07:: with SMTP id q7mr39395993qvn.18.1636999690855; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j126sm7124360qke.103.2021.11.15.10.08.09 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------YDwdyZiBosRJXXVJ8eLGXq5b" Message-ID: <2fc53a87-345c-f516-9ab2-787fe6d68cc0@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:08:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:08:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------YDwdyZiBosRJXXVJ8eLGXq5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/15/2021 11:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion regarding the > proposal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC series.  We see, > roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those who want governing > policies in the draft now, and those who would rather see this > discussion moved to the RSWG. > > > All of us in this group are veterans.  We have all chaired working > groups and been in other leadership positions, and by and large we > know one another.  With this in mind, we have a question: > > > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike’s proposal > or similar? > As I pointed out in another email, and a point this email skips over, there is also the question: Do you believe that we will reach consensus to exclude Mike's proposal or similar? Which if the process is fair needs to be an absolute dual to the first question. So let me answer the neutral question not the one you asked:  I believe we will achieve rough consensus (but not consensus - rough consensus being lesser of consensus and with the possibility of remaining opposition) on how to proceed.  I doubt that it will be an easy discussion. I don't know what that decision will be, nor am I willing to constrain the time period for achieving the decision, nor to treat one position as superior to the other at the beginning of the discussion. > > If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move off of > your views to find common ground with those who hold different > perspectives? > This question really makes little sense in conjunction with your first one.  If I say, yes we'll achieve consensus to include principles text, I would expect the next discussion is on the views and where they differ.    If you say no, then we don't even ask if you're willing to attempt to make common ground? You have emails that you've received that have fairly hardened positions on both sides.  I would submit a willingness to move from views has not necessarily been a common strategy for most members of this group. > > Brian and Eliot > > > --------------YDwdyZiBosRJXXVJ8eLGXq5b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/15/2021 11:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion regarding the proposal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC series.  We see, roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those who want governing policies in the draft now, and those who would rather see this discussion moved to the RSWG.


All of us in this group are veterans.  We have all chaired working groups and been in other leadership positions, and by and large we know one another.  With this in mind, we have a question:


Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike’s proposal or similar? 

As I pointed out in another email, and a point this email skips over, there is also the question: Do you believe that we will reach consensus to exclude Mike's proposal or similar?

Which if the process is fair needs to be an absolute dual to the first question.

So let me answer the neutral question not the one you asked:  I believe we will achieve rough consensus (but not consensus - rough consensus being lesser of consensus and with the possibility of remaining opposition) on how to proceed.  I doubt that it will be an easy discussion. I don't know what that decision will be, nor am I willing to constrain the time period for achieving the decision, nor to treat one position as superior to the other at the beginning of the discussion.


If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move off of your views to find common ground with those who hold different perspectives?

This question really makes little sense in conjunction with your first one.  If I say, yes we'll achieve consensus to include principles text, I would expect the next discussion is on the views and where they differ.    If you say no, then we don't even ask if you're willing to attempt to make common ground?

You have emails that you've received that have fairly hardened positions on both sides.  I would submit a willingness to move from views has not necessarily been a common strategy for most members of this group.



Brian and Eliot




--------------YDwdyZiBosRJXXVJ8eLGXq5b-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 12:07:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F2C3A08BE for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:07:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sjWgyXbOqwQT for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35A143A08B8 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mmiGE-0008rf-Ac; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:07:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:07:20 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:07:36 -0000 --On Monday, November 15, 2021 17:58 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Colleagues, >=20 >=20 > The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion > regarding the proposal that Mike put forth on principles of > the RFC series.=C2=A0 We see, roughly speaking, two groups of > individuals: those who want governing policies in the draft > now, and those who would rather see this discussion moved to > the RSWG. >=20 >=20 > All of us in this group are veterans.=C2=A0 We have all = chaired > working groups and been in other leadership positions, and by > and large we know one another.=C2=A0 With this in mind, we = have a > question: >=20 >=20 > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include > Mike's proposal or similar? >=20 >=20 > If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move > off of your views to find common ground with those who hold > different perspectives? Eliot, First, yes, but only if the requirement is for no more than rough consensus and only if the chairs do not take the position that not addressing this topic is somehow a default that somehow has to be overcome by strong positions and agreement. There cannot be a default for any decision this group reaches unless that default is to preserve the status quo ante, discard all of the new ideas and mechanisms, and stick, more or less, to RFC Editor Model version 2 (oral tradition and all)... and I believe there is more than rough consensus to not do that. I also think there is a further distinction to be made than the one you cite above: I see two sets of positions among those who do not want some set of principles in the draft. One is opposed because they think it is the wrong thing to do and would be the wrong thing to do even if we could magically agree on the principles and the text well before the end of the week. The others think it would be just too hard and not worth the delay. I have also seen several statements that appear to me to be strawmen or close to it, e.g., that any such text in the draft would prevent the RSWG/RSAB and the process specified in the draft from making changes, ever. Let's not confuse those positions and let's not try to get an answer by creating unreasonable procedural barriers to one of the outcomes. john From nobody Mon Nov 15 12:24:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7183A08FE for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FLnGMOxDoGTN for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEE703A08FA for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id p18so15369309plf.13 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ELUyrojTMC1rv5PnCK1y2ABf5ykiTra0Ryou4aJIbnU=; b=QxRXsbZjdAxpANoKRYrNL+OR/WGua/2VMB+9Ah2iCb9BuEHdSirKp34NcMG+9tAInA BDi3UmulLJrqD/LkF0SA4p9vJGDuqk4wpr6bXIh5oUU9Po3bE3PTqt8fb8fJqHX6geE3 qlY7MbtvSqdAy/oc5AlQ2P+KYgstDeUPP67sNat1BQZgaMREf0zlikdebOk8xdlw+VGH sylJoTg9wQikrRL0X+pK3L5wcz38rD/f1EKnuP2phg9DodxXkhdopm5YAh3g1l5RUK7y pWxf4jdmvylJvZK41j1xQom31fQRxt7VfE/HQUhRA0VJ4vrzbrOJt83SA3oJSY1BVwko 2wYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ELUyrojTMC1rv5PnCK1y2ABf5ykiTra0Ryou4aJIbnU=; b=fUvjOtBX3mIFMPF6aCZWTW90pCPqUUIvDhYn1DujKh/nEOfNCT40j5/b+54NDMjuu4 sXtYqcmneD4Pe9eH5OUDpSkVBVmdmZpuKocn88KuZAPRXcrdYHoQUQX/OqqX+69fZ1Kr IL3rL7AQQYiS5UjmbP6X3H3BbAUCqAOq1Gkqnse9PTARPg2Lirv9Epoftz08zXFbG8bg +WS/7mMfTZtHp9W6s1xqk/Xa86yzRxoh5czBcCscIewhEXYHxP4ke1L+f0Blh51Dwx/V UiP+oNi5LaRvm+NfgBG+01Ck/kj0g1xJFnE5ZRLgoQxnMTg52nKoluuWEzDa51XRD3k3 +9Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335xHBa5Vnz2kayzHWOmAjGM57OdxRsxDkQNGwySzYF9LbokryH 0aHuIc3yJGHa6m6t7dDTXUTS9ekmPcNeZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKSCgqEQta02RzsDXgwqn9Qz3oEXgdEVCvW9Xy2cF8JlSg57/lwv7+du2HJPx++Soft60Nrg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:c145:b0:142:50c3:c2a with SMTP id 5-20020a170902c14500b0014250c30c2amr38209734plj.32.1637007867265; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k18sm12406274pgb.70.2021.11.15.12.24.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:24:26 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:24:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:24:30 -0000 On 16-Nov-21 05:58, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Colleagues, >=20 >=20 > The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion regarding the pro= posal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC series.=C2=A0 We see, = roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those who want governing pol= icies in the draft now, and those who would rather see this discussion mo= ved to the RSWG. >=20 >=20 > All of us in this group are veterans.=C2=A0 We have all chaired working=20 groups and been in other leadership positions, and by and large we know o= ne another.=C2=A0 With this in mind, we have a question: >=20 >=20 > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s p= roposal or similar? Assuming you mean rough consensus, probably yes, but on what timescale? =20 > If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move off of your=20 views to find common ground with those who hold different perspectives? As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by the RSW= G/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. Brian C >=20 >=20 > Brian and Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 15 13:18:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8913A3A0A10 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:18:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kDg4q47ulumK for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: 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<7c09303a-2468-dd31-e2ec-58945c41a36c@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:14:12 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------XYDAXSVKlHR06c3ceXg0u49z" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8P191CA0029.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:130::39) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB8P191CA0029.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:130::39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4690.26 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:18:38 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:18:50 -0000 --------------XYDAXSVKlHR06c3ceXg0u49z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fQoE7k43pVdz9fmvWIEK4aBO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <7c09303a-2468-dd31-e2ec-58945c41a36c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: Principles / policies proposal References: In-Reply-To: --------------fQoE7k43pVdz9fmvWIEK4aBO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------kGpQWHqnsvp376Eq0kwtktPE" --------------kGpQWHqnsvp376Eq0kwtktPE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpBcyBvdGhlcnMgbm90ZWQgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBiZWxvdyBzZWVtIGZh aXJseSBiaWFzZWQNCnRvd2FyZHMgbm90IHdvcmtpbmcgb24gdGV4dCBvbiB0aGlzIHRvcGlj LiBJJ20gc3VyZSBhcw0KY2hhaXJzIHlvdSB3ZXJlIHRyeWluZyB0byBmaWd1cmUgYSBmYWly 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from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efxXSlHhjy96 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD0283A0A84 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991124B18676; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CMsjG8BmVzH7; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E0AB4B0DE25; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:31:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ECB0DE81-A123-4294-AF10-58123C1DFB0E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:31:32 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Eliot Lear References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:31:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ECB0DE81-A123-4294-AF10-58123C1DFB0E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Eliot > On 16/11/2021, at 5:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Dear Colleagues, >=20 > The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion regarding the = proposal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC series. We see, = roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those who want governing = policies in the draft now, and those who would rather see this = discussion moved to the RSWG. >=20 > All of us in this group are veterans. We have all chaired working = groups and been in other leadership positions, and by and large we know = one another. With this in mind, we have a question: >=20 > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s = proposal or similar?=20 As a reminder, Mike=E2=80=99s proposal contained both principles and = policy about how those principles could be changed. Tackling those two = parts separately might increase the chances of consensus being reached = on at least one of the two. Jay >=20 > If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move off of = your views to find common ground with those who hold different = perspectives? >=20 > Brian and Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_ECB0DE81-A123-4294-AF10-58123C1DFB0E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Eliot

On 16/11/2021, at 5:58 AM, = Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

=20 =20
Dear Colleagues,

The chairs have been following the vibrant discussion = regarding the proposal that Mike put forth on principles of the RFC = series.  We see, roughly speaking, two groups of individuals: those = who want governing policies in the draft now, and those who would rather = see this discussion moved to the RSWG.

All of us in this group are veterans.  We have all = chaired working groups and been in other leadership positions, and by = and large we know one another.  With this in mind, we have a = question:

Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include = Mike=E2=80=99s proposal or = similar? 

As a reminder, Mike=E2=80=99s proposal contained = both principles and policy about how those principles could be changed. =  Tackling those two parts separately might increase the chances of = consensus being reached on at least one of the two.

Jay


If you answer yes to this question, are you willing to move = off of your views to find common ground with those who hold different = perspectives?

Brian and Eliot

<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D2= 7A33.asc>--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_ECB0DE81-A123-4294-AF10-58123C1DFB0E-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 13:43:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B83C3A0AAF for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NwLtwiHCozVS for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F24DD3A0AAD for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id z9so16983271qtj.9 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5/QBWyfJBJ/9xTXh2rtQC7cNYDyZLm3pcCmJwUj9HaY=; b=ft5Kkj6YDwJ2FogY5HErhAytgNsovRw7uMu2VE1P2hm1KNsw1cnkbAe8kOe/Yz7koy Smd6Ayi+jPao2aIXYe/DcoUJhfqLXdtzN0fkvWQFNRAodO2KVWpXcg+uxqm/U5f9WrlX cs1cOheLcvkFfdkgGKg6+SQRZBTK0aLm/Y7Qz7vNFgGw2c3byYltIeapaJyTbBNIgpAV 2H38Uqv7P1d1NAQEW9HEZzAZOAaZmWeacUZ+1CYMmmfHIDoRWg0AxnVXKVXSvJA/LsES T676hsUx/yHHXRTYuSlU3MZC+xVC6XP6l6odia+eHLdDk6H7kU6KS+fFrNlsqnlfJty8 IW0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5/QBWyfJBJ/9xTXh2rtQC7cNYDyZLm3pcCmJwUj9HaY=; b=C++yabnaPhROurbMynAsqnvcrGRV+REu3oiHAi16RCuoSvHGyQFBV6dVW1Trtgjtrp Abrz1U38nobPu3o4FHJPrpNlVpEJfcbGhtvLq+Ilh/iipYrY6jnbMlEdu779qFB+O4wB BsJhAFrKWeOS7A4iDGLCKIi4VrpYBubxgT90ZRxUE6D6VBQzRvKCArU6vaMW5jvyrPUu RaJWnHUtnceDn4fI6sAX4geoSACQF45+PPokCilt7ICQ9xgyljDfPSFIhZzekSJ1gCxj vlG4V5QDPWs5hWTBvV/vWvXntUH4yt51Hq6AdH2ysvWytmAhK3l1/BSC1B6SDFT4wfws mycA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533rES9dRxmkd9v1Xsg2U/342/zbRtFBAdJ4JdT11RI5ujcuHYjx FJocRsEYvHdALX43afv/2SBYV3TvAWXkjNs0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2zrKe0LIvdOhDEIGBlV16mOnD7UJOTSImGYqdfuG98KSEaleeAWapwzgv4lsR9X3IUEGhAQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1a93:: with SMTP id s19mr2399842qtc.291.1637012619903; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o10sm2888766qtx.33.2021.11.15.13.43.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:43:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:43:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:43:45 -0000 On 11/15/2021 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by the > RSWG/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. Hi Brian - Can I ask you to clarify here?  The text I wrote allows for changes via the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional approvals from the IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. the same level of approval that this first document will require). Did you mean that, or did you mean the process we're defining in this document.  If the latter, what's to keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its first publication except good will or loud voices?  Especially since we seem to still be arguing about the conditions in which the RSAB may say no. Thanks - Mike From nobody Mon Nov 15 13:54:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1E33A0B00 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5Qt09hIz4w1 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FB4A3A0AFA for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id k1so18211341ilo.7 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=D+0o8gdIZ4lGs4OWfCX8XmlZyf9yw6Ni03BQ16xvNuc=; b=HHLGYrvwRm0QaceSKan5+I22PIzjZnWyY9CNdZQzjcUpeF+spFEZ5J9vCtO8HPcWWV D5btBoleKGFBzcLAJs6gKJprkoeSXVNbevOfOppN6Zkljpb5zYYug6MlQA7Tp5+zMFix OLV2Dk3O0dIloc/p7qN+S4PccesVHvXpe0U9Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=D+0o8gdIZ4lGs4OWfCX8XmlZyf9yw6Ni03BQ16xvNuc=; b=o2JVw3dmsFr1bKirkXCFOs5By9Ya4tHGFqu2JNOzD6iY5yOVEVnEH5+RcCMsgwiqr1 poso5xEuTjVupRH0wlog0jOPxTjFljLJpDBUJV/58zqppttliCTPUeYmKS/ryjKJdBqD XLZkd7Yp3ZBPDG9P0XzjzC1Dl4bZrpmwYRxqcBfADjvyVErXJ9B2rYKTHH/4CZmmluAD OMHpj2rzibrhIcogj5om4pZUdrca+kTMn2IlgXkz8MCSXaI8reQlqXvmJhMuXBSOFvc8 GU0ComQV9ZX6eegxSPDCcTPdG1YUbi1Q9HVV6YcHqgsPbYogon0zagAiMAUtPAK1lhEf /4Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530xpSxDO+vTsr0SExOkayTs0qYAmAm9j8CZ5Vvh+/Bbrk3U9oXS qIAAyXHL54JyQGoHN338JhfaWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzji0CXaY8Ydz/E3OQFFUPsSqwJGc+uFGegXGTWSV0PKovADlA5izVpiFYfkI6dsDeADgt7ng== X-Received: by 2002:a92:ca07:: with SMTP id j7mr1352460ils.69.1637013285216; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r11sm10817014ill.88.2021.11.15.13.54.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:54:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:54:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:54:51 -0000 On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/15/2021 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by the >> RSWG/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. > > Hi Brian - > > Can I ask you to clarify here?  The text I wrote allows for changes via > the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional approvals from the > IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. the same level of approval that > this first document will require). Did you mean that, or did you mean > the process we're defining in this document.  If the latter, what's to > keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its first > publication except good will or loud voices?  Especially since we seem > to still be arguing about the conditions in which the RSAB may say no. Section 6 of our document states: The Editorial Stream will be used only to specify and update policies, procedures, guidelies, rules, and related information regarding the RFC Series as a whole; no other use of the Editorial Stream is authorized by this memo and no other streams are so authorized. This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF LLC. It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (either updating or obsoleting this document) can be made only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and IETF LLC. Is that correct? Peter From nobody Mon Nov 15 14:03:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B129D3A0B35 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hv6Qv90HZjde for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23BC63A0B15 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id o17so17103737qtk.1 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Nb8KOtmKVdxhJdEkJD+Tgh3dzrhEOSpDYG4psghtUsw=; b=yPO3j2iUJ2LLsVWPuCUx+gReK595+x11SGqSuTqM/4UlORVrQQFi4ELG+Iq0ogXlTZ DrSOkAsuSrKQE8ujHNY+Wll1MV0lo7hHOBZdPKdAzezp/9ZGZe5Fl638KPq1K14tLYmD tipNvTsdmdwn+/B52ZjrsrKKXvdRxePynY/K543Qx+uapMbi+1zJekNz/9RqhK9RR5hQ I81V3Va7132T/DoN7etHFrEobJEXck5dGDlh8Jcrf3t/BvGzmc758Ho/BWVwORRQLluY LAQC9ZXVVoS591saMiT4165eU7V6j6GFd51EpehSn7jOzCHaKmRTA8jTIb2M5PsDBmt4 3qjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Nb8KOtmKVdxhJdEkJD+Tgh3dzrhEOSpDYG4psghtUsw=; b=6X8bu/uKbMW2Z0pF1n+V8oqYygKBWnL0lWs8x+nRCkmH7b4Slh0j4djscR+J7r74am wptfl6/6S3ZYO7tzg0OikfbA2bW9IqBTnlLD2GvdqRJQXoKFGiY1UTg2qB++FihoJ6rt cvsz9/95El21M+ERZCRXDN1bV/ZpKAgWCI6aR3jRqQzcL+IrAezcaxybI+aEnLjeLfRG TwFRld28HomTFzCaC1sbBetxjsZmoZjWcnrVq61TBeTf2WeTLLaBVCxAXJqAegF0cUnN JIUu8Pg/LdKFhiIjxwUMWZjtN2tlMvePitZsxmimDUFgMs4Isu7yOUL/3AraAv9XXeFY pSyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sD9P7KfbA0zJN3Nt6OtXjHBMbSAMMXL3yHrUzMfKYu7uVGeVO TifB20YKsmIXwMRhH7Ay6QbNBL6hWIoro1nY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTFAsT1wH4LXXAOYknox09/vCoMqtUo5MM0USD0EfDvqCyMiaqgMe8myDuy9hH89Vd/PUlyw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5989:: with SMTP id e9mr2421057qte.55.1637013828219; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h22sm7252395qkk.14.2021.11.15.14.03.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:03:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 22:03:53 -0000 On 11/15/2021 4:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/15/2021 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>> As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by >>> the RSWG/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. >> >> Hi Brian - >> >> Can I ask you to clarify here?  The text I wrote allows for changes >> via the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional approvals from the >> IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. the same level of approval >> that this first document will require). Did you mean that, or did you >> mean the process we're defining in this document.  If the latter, >> what's to keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its >> first publication except good will or loud voices?  Especially since >> we seem to still be arguing about the conditions in which the RSAB >> may say no. > > Section 6 of our document states: > >    The Editorial Stream will be used only to specify and update >    policies, procedures, guidelies, rules, and related information >    regarding the RFC Series as a whole; no other use of the Editorial >    Stream is authorized by this memo and no other streams are so >    authorized.  This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, >    IESG, and IETF LLC. > > It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: > >    Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (either updating or obsoleting >    this document) can be made only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and >    IETF LLC. > > Is that correct? > > Peter I know discussion (or at least one email) has been going on for inclusion of similar text (and I support the text you've crafted above) and if we get consensus on that text, then the *set* of principles doesn't need similar approval text (e.g. in the header).   Some of the items within the set may need some tagging as to which are tangible things that can't be changed absent model change approval (maybe related to Jays Principles vs Policies). I included similar language in the principles text as I wasn't sure what the final result would be on that discussion, and figured it was either critical or just editorial depending on where we came down on the Model modification process. In any event, clarification from Brian on what he meant by "subject to later change by the RSWG/RSAB process" would be helpful as a checkpoint. Thanks, Mike From nobody Mon Nov 15 14:10:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840C3A0B6C for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkeF1q0AEZEX for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4C03A0B6B for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id fv9-20020a17090b0e8900b001a6a5ab1392so1037443pjb.1 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/7/Rx1Fkrp/sBaLqxl7o8rlEaS0Cw/hJl1rLtmWS6vU=; b=MsWtM5oT/x2VjktaXHBCEq+o6tnM8hSDuoeOwdXp58flP2NzLhPTlJ0tW593NrZ+p9 vFgGJGVekIF32sXR3z3aEUijqqArCKtmRh8DOQ4ITN9K0ZIBAsiUpF4ALhoyt1dcNWsg 8jGJXN6F1hWs/0nsuNiYGr5qYWpqEe+/NKKq4PRh46f8oX4aGCK84+i0KU/b575RywXo FTtwuHGEAGv/4qdcc8lDMOm1jGs5qk1IbYU6WMvc52odjUiXbNu9xpecXiQZ8AOXXI6o wRJ5YVO1Ny14hUSdgDkeWKbwKiafaiSDqDfDvLayHQqbK7VNV3hcQ7w4dWeiNbtfGI6o BBwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/7/Rx1Fkrp/sBaLqxl7o8rlEaS0Cw/hJl1rLtmWS6vU=; b=JlVT50H7Sf1Yvfo3aWq2RXTJUxsVlopa6pKaNMI7b2Cwq283Wqvn7JD3oz91BTYYfj zK0ob7nBbvU3iTo6o8aIHT6jPl0HZ3ftRTVf8CyhC0ydxaFZjvJZzr7VJDqHYzk7wK1t b6aBX/cHPb6LGx3KmzDS5tJYf669p1yQUIyh3gzLMVHHOIy7qvo0sceRdg/v8558oV4l S/h3JOQh0zL8fK14fda/fVMq/bwA6DtQsYdbEEwpAx4EjKPkZIFO5C3oRBBjWvpXOn1f 35fCw7MKnJCelTckxIe8V2id5mnVSwQdndILmJSPZJ9tau//7/FKSnXERt7Jjb3NCRjW vk3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530IDvM/oR4ZECVR9YprFPIz548OSgPAZxZJdNMtMguBKn7zrjZg hAjXgU9I+US0/Hk3RqF7WGQOhjA/CKNTig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+Ze5Qq1aJBffjJyc1C1rVYa9dmUiUg+Dx6rjL05PULhC0I3yzGoKvt+itJgcS32Kv10uzjg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8f97:b0:143:88c2:e2d5 with SMTP id z23-20020a1709028f9700b0014388c2e2d5mr39543354plo.70.1637014212859; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id on5sm299775pjb.23.2021.11.15.14.10.11 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 11:10:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 22:10:16 -0000 On 16-Nov-21 10:43, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/15/2021 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by the >> RSWG/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. >=20 > Hi Brian - >=20 > Can I ask you to clarify here?=C2=A0 The text I wrote allows for change= s via > the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional approvals from the > IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. the same level of approval tha= t > this first document will require). Did you mean that, or did you mean > the process we're defining in this document.=C2=A0 If the latter, what'= s to > keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its first > publication except good will or loud voices?=C2=A0 Especially since we = seem > to still be arguing about the conditions in which the RSAB may say no. I believe that the RSWG/RSAB model does require community support and rough consensus for changes, so personally I do not see a need for additional checks and balances. (From a broader perspective, I'm also anxious to see fewer extraneous responsibilities piled on the IESG and IAB, since they detract from their ability to perform their main roles.) Brian From nobody Mon Nov 15 14:30:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CD93A0C7D for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4LnrOBgt5U2 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E20B23A0C24 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id m9so23582562iop.0 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yH0hbBNyRtC6MMlHEm192ZmF/tEpzzosP1s+vnvtNZQ=; b=WaIpupu1bNgbM5UK+ksNr1aFI/9NqlK/slI50Eyh5CIoXsOcB5B7Z55RCM9K8RIXTm 0PChvIDzTyGBaqrAknjop/IdCSPlwHhARt7oYLS/OwmjTUPaFNIdSr0NV8piDa4a4u/E mmATTkSOIEjpsQ5LLNvKh2B8Y4ArqG22sKDMw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yH0hbBNyRtC6MMlHEm192ZmF/tEpzzosP1s+vnvtNZQ=; b=px0Mm6gtjXUBlM3kombc4ai+NTxVTs7PbHuzOInw9GMiYhwE/6S5Z2XnjCCUbJjCN1 JMmI6HpdT/J/ShmnE/n2kR+ALjgg+Sy8hW1LLdey8pYRpFc3DF3oQkN++uSVqdBbemOl bEg8OBOK8SsICMCes/WaeTprhlhBa+eDOksvLHAAkBKZfeSFEPeZCEaGymDTVwIsj5ca IHJoCAY7Eu2XN20/NZ4T5aAFXaghCK+p2FF4/gKFA5N0HKx+NfIOaMcvAXaRAgu4ksyu GKV/N5sIsu/4FT033xC76wN3d1pUB1RmjSDetTOZQPXHd0vwBne7VPE9bxhyjfDQi+af dXsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530k/zzdXlPxtFLfn/Gy5WWmLw3nZup/ub5eozSWRUGS/BIUOo9z enGhLkVlgpAC00RUYtbtyTEZVA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwdEV2+moe2xLCVzrJ5Ftha2MSS8UPVfIvh7VZ4W6kVYVtJiWjhT+P+mWPThXpVuHDsqOAtVw== X-Received: by 2002:a02:85a9:: with SMTP id d38mr1634732jai.71.1637015408067; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f15sm11540184ila.68.2021.11.15.14.30.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:30:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:30:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 22:30:14 -0000 On 11/15/21 3:03 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/15/2021 4:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> On 11/15/2021 3:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> >>>> As long as it's clear that the text is subject to later change by >>>> the RSWG/RSAB process, I'd be OK with being in the rough. >>> >>> Hi Brian - >>> >>> Can I ask you to clarify here?  The text I wrote allows for changes >>> via the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional approvals from the >>> IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. the same level of approval >>> that this first document will require). Did you mean that, or did you >>> mean the process we're defining in this document.  If the latter, >>> what's to keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its >>> first publication except good will or loud voices?  Especially since >>> we seem to still be arguing about the conditions in which the RSAB >>> may say no. >> >> Section 6 of our document states: >> >>    The Editorial Stream will be used only to specify and update >>    policies, procedures, guidelies, rules, and related information >>    regarding the RFC Series as a whole; no other use of the Editorial >>    Stream is authorized by this memo and no other streams are so >>    authorized.  This policy may be changed only by agreement of the IAB, >>    IESG, and IETF LLC. >> >> It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: >> >>    Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (either updating or obsoleting >>    this document) can be made only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, and >>    IETF LLC. >> >> Is that correct? >> >> Peter > > I know discussion (or at least one email) has been going on for > inclusion of similar text (and I support the text you've crafted above) > and if we get consensus on that text, then the *set* of principles > doesn't need similar approval text (e.g. in the header).   Some of the > items within the set may need some tagging as to which are tangible > things that can't be changed absent model change approval (maybe related > to Jays Principles vs Policies). > > I included similar language in the principles text as I wasn't sure what > the final result would be on that discussion, and figured it was either > critical or just editorial depending on where we came down on the Model > modification process. As I see it, the document as we have it right now (modulo editorial fixes and leaving aside for the moment the question of adding text about principles) defines version 3 of the RFC Editor Model - that is, the operational framework for moving forward with management of the Series and for publishing policy documents in the Editorial Stream (but not for publishing documents that redefine the Model itself). Therefore, text along the foregoing lines seems appropriate to me. Peter From nobody Mon Nov 15 15:14:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECD13A0BF9 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:14:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PaLkFwAESd-Q for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2424D3A0A3E for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AFNEe5A1607930 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 00:14:41 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637018081; bh=Jy7PWYERYaR9F8I/P3yp0+1BkdCRs9reTckxFTlrg9k=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=ML5TtEANV/ogNyqJSSgwWoF4nNSxEK3ISRDdZUModg4GKOKtbkIYvYP1m3+PdqdTU uaKo0/57Okd4agHyRqxJ8TL1DfkyAvJhedU2tido6F7Y7ixfaRh/cAABOrGdIFAAXq 8/5RXBkAjDSEaPMErWJ2V7t4B+p+JJcYpkBDzchE= Message-ID: <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 00:14:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.1.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------v8MQQNiwQUc0CqQFj0hLJZHC" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:14:49 -0000 This is an 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<51ba1d1e-6236-4a51-50a3-74fec229ffe4@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:33:57 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------YPJKa3GkSg4D5Gt13AkDrFIU" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0802CA0048.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:a3::34) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95.45.153.252) by DB6PR0802CA0048.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:34:12 -0000 --------------YPJKa3GkSg4D5Gt13AkDrFIU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7wKqKeRT1BJ3Oz3PDwRp4JCG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <51ba1d1e-6236-4a51-50a3-74fec229ffe4@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> --------------7wKqKeRT1BJ3Oz3PDwRp4JCG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0lzfyhY3BIMhxMxCgRavMygM" --------------0lzfyhY3BIMhxMxCgRavMygM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed 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X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfedugddutdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepteefleffjeffhfehheeffeegudelgfeujedukeeigedvgeehffefvdehffeileek necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:34:43 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:34:41 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <190BC78F-9258-4BBD-BD7D-ED62C441B5C4@mnot.net> References: To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:34:51 -0000 These are somewhat odd questions, but... > On 16 Nov 2021, at 3:58 am, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s = proposal or similar?=20 I suspect not, for a few reasons: * Scope: Defining principles is more rightly in-scope for the RSWG, not = this group. We were chartered to delivery a process for creating policy, = not the policies themselves. I'd argue that principles informing policy = are more closely associated with the RSWG. * Oversight/accountability: The RSWG has a well-defined appeal and = oversight chain; this body does not, given that the IAB is in an = extremely delicate situation regarding this group's operation. Given = that this is obviously contentious, holding the discussion in a more = robust forum seems prudent. * Delivery timelines: Embarking upon this further prolongs our period = without a consultant and without a strategy function. It's uncertain how = long it will take to both establish consensus on Mike's proposals, and = to assure ourselves that there aren't any other principles worth = documenting.=20 I've seen a few people argue that it's imperative that these principles = be documented as part of the model. Given that the RFC Series has = survived for so long without such documentation, I don't find those = arguments convincing. I also fail to see why folks think it's so = important to include these in the model, given that presumably they'll = be participating in the RSWG as well. We *might* be able to reach consensus to define principles in a separate = document (without the higher bar to changes), and perhaps refer to that = informatively; that would allow us to ship the model. However, I don't = really see the merit in doing that over just taking it to the RSWG. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Nov 15 16:08:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463593A0CD6 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pevABzUgljQu for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FED33A0CCD for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id x10so23733134ioj.9 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BOIdbQQwW5h82G/Ibr4M+yGQpseGs1iO+fG7k/W9Ls0=; b=MbAQ5+4iAp6grJaPKD3Od3bSI18ddEbGu2Lu6fbBIxCPn3t4jmktCbTb45PibB8c9R imGVvm1hI0nKxiUNsF0yDNl/DIE0tpqkM8z7UgJBXXZ22zbjhjEjEYXQijKwEX84+z/d dkA79V+rtMRnFjjpKZZMjrG2l43DW0GgAGZZfg9V/uLBY++RfkLgHXH1/lNZo8p6F8fb Dc1R7dJ0bU8woR9daMyD5pnB0FcylKwuU049yYsNN01LypTNLqGGwvqq18SCiH8p7hFh 62DyK+8FBGKuCj+HZuNGcxYzaD4CyXFFwm/NlEwE5fKmPs4vTWQdKy/yY02yUh7ZvA8E L2iA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BOIdbQQwW5h82G/Ibr4M+yGQpseGs1iO+fG7k/W9Ls0=; b=KrJuTdwU7aLCK8lgOJTpw/sJhOdnyL72cuDi36kLyM6fWPELBvCGUlVOOBgE1Mw1J0 iQW1NU/2WPq7J8ARvr5DAazjUyskr0O0wCqO/lDn0trmMUB2FvbUQZMVxxivk3Sj5RGg dCKg9Fp14tSWZuEjg/8Dm5cV0VWTj0nmhADy1768JQvWzOtHTjxgXyuqDkPZG9DIXiTe 8Msc5IOwX+vEqnS6eLYNPPsUhDDB42UuVVwwbQ4Xyn7/vrrK1PS9Rpmjbcpt9+PhIKSc rTtk37u94kcjsy8WAYFMtwN4cpgWTqd3tymGZrTp4rBC/0vYYirzhYI2Vf/LZiNG+IqJ c+pg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530dfO677sGZk0pnV0EIkKiIV5SdG3uerVjaSQl0HyweIUWkmmuU q0nMAiJP/l4yKyixvEOh/Z7xiEtxHMhRfkEo4epNIMXzGfo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgwF9vIt28e5SdCXZPR55Tub9PgVBOcm+BtzuYNtLRrUaVwuhckhQ0QURyEc7i3gx/LGrRl9KQ7J7YytZz2TE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16c5:: with SMTP id g5mr2092526jat.11.1637021321175; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <190BC78F-9258-4BBD-BD7D-ED62C441B5C4@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <190BC78F-9258-4BBD-BD7D-ED62C441B5C4@mnot.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:08:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056b8bc05d0dcba6c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 00:08:47 -0000 --00000000000056b8bc05d0dcba6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I roughly agree with mnot here. I would add in addition that it should not be a surprise that we have differences of opinion about the best way for the series to evolve. I had understood the purpose of the work we have been doing to create a venue in which (1) we could make progress despite those differences on areas where there was agreement and (2) some of those differences could be discussed and hopefully via resolved (via rough consensus). Attempting instead to resolve those issues prior to that structure being created seems like the wrong order of operations. -Ekr On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:34 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > These are somewhat odd questions, but... > > > On 16 Nov 2021, at 3:58 am, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > > Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s p= roposal > or similar? > > I suspect not, for a few reasons: > > * Scope: Defining principles is more rightly in-scope for the RSWG, not > this group. We were chartered to delivery a process for creating policy, > not the policies themselves. I'd argue that principles informing policy a= re > more closely associated with the RSWG. > > * Oversight/accountability: The RSWG has a well-defined appeal and > oversight chain; this body does not, given that the IAB is in an extremel= y > delicate situation regarding this group's operation. Given that this is > obviously contentious, holding the discussion in a more robust forum seem= s > prudent. > > * Delivery timelines: Embarking upon this further prolongs our period > without a consultant and without a strategy function. It's uncertain how > long it will take to both establish consensus on Mike's proposals, and to > assure ourselves that there aren't any other principles worth documenting= . > > I've seen a few people argue that it's imperative that these principles b= e > documented as part of the model. Given that the RFC Series has survived f= or > so long without such documentation, I don't find those arguments > convincing. I also fail to see why folks think it's so important to inclu= de > these in the model, given that presumably they'll be participating in the > RSWG as well. > > We *might* be able to reach consensus to define principles in a separate > document (without the higher bar to changes), and perhaps refer to that > informatively; that would allow us to ship the model. However, I don't > really see the merit in doing that over just taking it to the RSWG. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --00000000000056b8bc05d0dcba6c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I roughly agree with mnot here.

<= div> I would add in addition that it should not be a surprise that we have = differences of opinion about the best way for the series to evolve. I had u= nderstood the purpose of the work we have been doing to create a venue in w= hich (1) we could make progress despite those differences on areas where th= ere was agreement and (2)=C2=A0 some of those differences could be discusse= d and hopefully via resolved (via rough consensus). Attempting instead to r= esolve those issues prior to that structure being created seems like the wr= ong order of operations.

-Ekr

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Mon, Nov= 15, 2021 at 3:34 PM Mark Nottingham <m= not@mnot.net> wrote:
These are somewhat odd questions, but...

> On 16 Nov 2021, at 3:58 am, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
>
> Do you believe that we will reach consensus to include Mike=E2=80=99s = proposal or similar?

I suspect not, for a few reasons:

* Scope: Defining principles is more rightly in-scope for the RSWG, not thi= s group. We were chartered to delivery a process for creating policy, not t= he policies themselves. I'd argue that principles informing policy are = more closely associated with the RSWG.

* Oversight/accountability: The RSWG has a well-defined appeal and oversigh= t chain; this body does not, given that the IAB is in an extremely delicate= situation regarding this group's operation. Given that this is obvious= ly contentious, holding the discussion in a more robust forum seems prudent= .

* Delivery timelines: Embarking upon this further prolongs our period witho= ut a consultant and without a strategy function. It's uncertain how lon= g it will take to both establish consensus on Mike's proposals, and to = assure ourselves that there aren't any other principles worth documenti= ng.

I've seen a few people argue that it's imperative that these princi= ples be documented as part of the model. Given that the RFC Series has surv= ived for so long without such documentation, I don't find those argumen= ts convincing. I also fail to see why folks think it's so important to = include these in the model, given that presumably they'll be participat= ing in the RSWG as well.

We *might* be able to reach consensus to define principles in a separate do= cument (without the higher bar to changes), and perhaps refer to that infor= matively; that would allow us to ship the model. However, I don't reall= y see the merit in doing that over just taking it to the RSWG.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--00000000000056b8bc05d0dcba6c-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 16:26:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCEF3A0D5F for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id po7XUUjvELcs for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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FPlGQH59s3CJ8P9JRlF0JbPgIEb32uhpuuNPQTeM= Message-ID: <31a2b27d-736a-9386-e618-7fa800a28be0@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:26:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> <51ba1d1e-6236-4a51-50a3-74fec229ffe4@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <51ba1d1e-6236-4a51-50a3-74fec229ffe4@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------VJXdZZ11PAS0IpWXydVoaAam" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 00:55:22 -0000 --------------9ueXUn1GcIU0bPVlPAh02lMv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------t9o4JyzY6hJk8wn8JBYGaW08"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <29eb0c95-9102-364b-cc02-e757fa88f7a4@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> <4b7ba81a-3b45-aaf9-10ad-d9b2bcd0671c@lear.ch> <51ba1d1e-6236-4a51-50a3-74fec229ffe4@cs.tcd.ie> <31a2b27d-736a-9386-e618-7fa800a28be0@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <31a2b27d-736a-9386-e618-7fa800a28be0@lear.ch> --------------t9o4JyzY6hJk8wn8JBYGaW08 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------dOCZf9NSTkvJc2x9QkqfkjTf" --------------dOCZf9NSTkvJc2x9QkqfkjTf 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m18sm16780262pfk.68.2021.11.15.17.21.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:21:53 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8a61129f-dc32-6472-f7ee-48035bd8cc3b@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:21:48 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Changes to model [was Principles / policies proposal} X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:21:59 -0000 Note the narrowed subject header. On 16-Nov-21 11:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/15/21 3:03 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 11/15/2021 4:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: =2E.. >>> It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (either updating=20 or obsoleting >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 this document) can be made only by agreement of the IAB= , IESG, and >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF LLC. >>> >>> Is that correct? >>> >>> Peter >> >> I know discussion (or at least one email) has been going on for >> inclusion of similar text (and I support the text you've crafted above= ) >> and if we get consensus on that text, then the *set* of principles >> doesn't need similar approval text (e.g. in the header).=C2=A0=C2=A0 S= ome of the >> items within the set may need some tagging as to which are tangible >> things that can't be changed absent model change approval (maybe relat= ed >> to Jays Principles vs Policies). >> >> I included similar language in the principles text as I wasn't sure wh= at >> the final result would be on that discussion, and figured it was eithe= r >> critical or just editorial depending on where we came down on the Mode= l >> modification process. >=20 > As I see it, the document as we have it right now (modulo editorial > fixes and leaving aside for the moment the question of adding text abou= t > principles) defines version 3 of the RFC Editor Model - that is, the > operational framework for moving forward with management of the Series > and for publishing policy documents in the Editorial Stream (but not fo= r > publishing documents that redefine the Model itself). Therefore, text > along the foregoing lines seems appropriate to me. Fair enough, but then: (a) Why are the Editorial, IRTF and Independent streams not required to a= gree? (b) The LLC needs a right to "[No] Objection", but as a servant of the community, I don't think they are called upon to "agree". Brian From nobody Mon Nov 15 17:26:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1495E3A00C9 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:26:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NAWHrhFFvNbg for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F32973A00C8 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mmnFD-0009Bx-L0; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:26:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:26:37 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:26:50 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:10 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Can I ask you to clarify here?=C2=A0 The text I wrote allows = for >> changes via the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional >> approvals from the IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. >> the same level of approval that this first document will >> require). Did you mean that, or did you mean the process >> we're defining in this document.=C2=A0 If the latter, what's = to >> keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its = first >> publication except good will or loud voices?=C2=A0 Especially >> since we seem to still be arguing about the conditions in >> which the RSAB may say no. =20 > I believe that the RSWG/RSAB model does require community > support and rough consensus for changes, so personally I do > not see a need for additional checks and balances. =20 > (From a broader perspective, I'm also anxious to see fewer > extraneous responsibilities piled on the IESG and IAB, since > they detract from their ability to perform their main roles.) Brian, (definitely not speaking for anyone else here) Because I agree with much of what you say above as principles, let me explain my perspective to try to understand what we disagree about. In reverse order: * I strongly agree about not piling extraneous, or any avoidable extra, responsibilities on the IESG. For the IAB, "extraneous" is a bit complicated because, while the IESG's primary responsibilities are toward the IETF, the IAB has always [1] had responsibilities for and to the broader Internet community. That makes the boundary for "extraneous", at best, a little bit fuzzy. I hope your charter draft reflects that broader responsibility. If it does not, we should have a discussion in that context. * We (both in the work of this Program and more generally) have often used the term "community" and followed it with a good deal of handwaving. I even recall that we had a lengthy discussion about how to reach out to, and reflect the needs and opinions of, a community that included direct and indirect users of the RFC Series, not just the extended IETF community. That discussion seems to have fizzled out and been dropped: as I read draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05, I can see no uses of that term that imply reaching well beyond the types of people participating in this effort. Now, against that backdrop, I have a prediction about the RSWG, one that is extrapolated from IETF WGs (especially long-lived ones): once things settle down, the active participants will be those who have strong opinions about the RFC Series, special commitments to it, or have particular axes to grind: not only not representative of "the community" but even less representative than this group. Most likely still ok for routine work with the RSAB as sanity-checker. But I am concerned about identifying the non-routine, the things for which we'd want at least as broad representation as this Program effort. My goal for that part of the process may be different from Mike's but I want to identify proposals that would represent significant changes of direction and require an extra (and broader) level of scrutiny. As long as the triggering mechanism is clear, I care less about whether we do it by dragging in more organizations, making special announcements and extra-intense calls for community review and input, or doing a special, attention-getting, ritual dance during plenaries. Or something else. Does that make any sense? john [1] As I understand it, going back to "Dave Clark, IAB Chair and Internet Architect" and definitely an issue POISED did not address in rearranging responsibilities. From nobody Mon Nov 15 18:18:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61FE3A03FE for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3KyFpBfXmOy for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5315C3A03FC for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id g19so16694900pfb.8 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sTB3W6bYs2bIKc0Vv4fgAJ5AxT4r7/VP2bo2DIMvGfM=; b=D3uH+NWSC5/UgCqGlAMS3ttNqU41s8ZkB5y9n6AmBuv4hRux7h0azhsov9iRrb2QJU Z88moLIRAy7zKadyJEc+gwaD0WJ6PWN7tht03PYFEIZzXM193q6l0RjWtt0nhmlZidlw otshQB2nINjNfRttPHXElD+FkNKzbC6bzlG1VfvxoO+f/AkgH/rLUjG6LUGksosABo0I NVeg/Ys07MSlT+m8IDg2HQ4hIKZ6nKP0BmJkNH4GQWVOheEoDLUNIxloqQhijDJuCmy+ 2d8tdi+EjXxlKVTZQ1U2hbIZVKRtypAiXL1c5V9kKcqOhlaMS8nZ9ENlg+ETQpPAGc2D iADA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sTB3W6bYs2bIKc0Vv4fgAJ5AxT4r7/VP2bo2DIMvGfM=; b=gx8u701eLgRVQCMcP11ocYL8EqEbW1o/403hWrgw5DJ9miq3io7AbzC5wxmBuh5ZfZ JJobtgL6w/DK5Qn5p1b3/ocIzZtBXlgYC+nh7J19WBeL82o71pXKseNzgzqgQTURpCT3 FaCKiSw3vIaEXqhq4DDc76HTS8QIiwOXxypwqd+i4NXuHveiTj1ooJqIHnnFgoUUqjG4 0f78K4loj+gXZ2k+tiqwq0d93h2w5VqHyBfjWrzJmgNZwzrHbR9W/qtvSqUwh6IKpNBA xg/OM3ly8cq1RFT8WnR6MhtUeTf2ynu95xRPc4GCkWSIyTKItnvT8QtkR3q1USbxZ0dX J7CA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532AKbnfyHO50/CNrmf+oqHNtkI8gax+w8JCMk7ha/Pw/+IDabuE z+0hqMj++QaZ2bsWjPgDKjW/Bgx9EVR81g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyaH9HUfve0tDlH8KS4ttkNFstVa9eQ44AojU6TbrcY1GzCBKDMoXMnDvqV+Oy5F9PbzOcs7g== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ed42:: with SMTP id m2mr2527355pgk.39.1637029121656; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d17sm16590714pfj.215.2021.11.15.18.18.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:18:41 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0a184080-f95b-46ca-1545-5289eec80de3@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:18:36 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 02:18:45 -0000 Front posting: I agree. Maybe I have too much faith that the Last Calls for the Editorial stream will be effective. Logic: RFC issues are ones that anybody can have an opinion about, unlike narrow technical issues where the "community" is intrinsically subdivided and Last Calls are often no-ops. For the record, I'll go with whatever our co-chairs deem to be rough consensus. One inserted comment below. Regards Brian On 16-Nov-21 14:26, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 >=20 > --On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:10 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 >>> Can I ask you to clarify here?=C2=A0 The text I wrote allows for >>> changes via the RSWG/RSAB process, but requires additional >>> approvals from the IAB/IESG/LLC and community support (e.g. >>> the same level of approval that this first document will >>> require). Did you mean that, or did you mean the process >>> we're defining in this document.=C2=A0 If the latter, what's to >>> keep the RSWG/RSAB from wiping out this section with its first >>> publication except good will or loud voices?=C2=A0 Especially >>> since we seem to still be arguing about the conditions in >>> which the RSAB may say no. > =20 >> I believe that the RSWG/RSAB model does require community >> support and rough consensus for changes, so personally I do >> not see a need for additional checks and balances. > =20 >> (From a broader perspective, I'm also anxious to see fewer >> extraneous responsibilities piled on the IESG and IAB, since >> they detract from their ability to perform their main roles.) >=20 > Brian, > (definitely not speaking for anyone else here) >=20 > Because I agree with much of what you say above as principles, > let me explain my perspective to try to understand what we > disagree about. In reverse order: >=20 > * I strongly agree about not piling extraneous, or any avoidable > extra, responsibilities on the IESG. For the IAB, "extraneous" > is a bit complicated because, while the IESG's primary > responsibilities are toward the IETF, the IAB has always [1] had > responsibilities for and to the broader Internet community. > That makes the boundary for "extraneous", at best, a little bit > fuzzy. I hope your charter draft reflects that broader > responsibility. If it does not, we should have a discussion in > that context. The new sentence in draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02 is "The RFC Editor function is defined under the authority of the IAB by " >=20 > * We (both in the work of this Program and more generally) have > often used the term "community" and followed it with a good deal > of handwaving. I even recall that we had a lengthy discussion > about how to reach out to, and reflect the needs and opinions > of, a community that included direct and indirect users of the > RFC Series, not just the extended IETF community. That > discussion seems to have fizzled out and been dropped: as I read > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05, I can see no uses of that term > that imply reaching well beyond the types of people > participating in this effort. >=20 > Now, against that backdrop, I have a prediction about the RSWG, > one that is extrapolated from IETF WGs (especially long-lived > ones): once things settle down, the active participants will be > those who have strong opinions about the RFC Series, special > commitments to it, or have particular axes to grind: not only > not representative of "the community" but even less > representative than this group. Most likely still ok for > routine work with the RSAB as sanity-checker. But I am > concerned about identifying the non-routine, the things for > which we'd want at least as broad representation as this Program > effort. My goal for that part of the process may be different > from Mike's but I want to identify proposals that would > represent significant changes of direction and require an extra > (and broader) level of scrutiny. As long as the triggering > mechanism is clear, I care less about whether we do it by > dragging in more organizations, making special announcements and > extra-intense calls for community review and input, or doing a > special, attention-getting, ritual dance during plenaries. Or > something else. >=20 > Does that make any sense? >=20 > john >=20 >=20 > [1] As I understand it, going back to "Dave Clark, IAB Chair and > Internet Architect" and definitely an issue POISED did not > address in rearranging responsibilities. >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 15 18:19:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B6D3A03FC for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:19:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id somUBGQGlYkM for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C4553A03FB for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id e7so25201759ljq.12 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:19:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pSGuhXnntBF40wNidEJz0txcPNT3Yzabix/UoeuceCc=; b=nzFeXpvUu6vShmCJuW9p10Z4hsJEP8q4ycyOAcKH/UeOiwe8U2Ms5c30eaxLLMzppU Y9FkqPZQr+w2eq3jLzoPTsf4JnkHa3UL/V8kGq5r8FW1+oO9SC9XEZhPN8PgFQLobeYD u7GwMUrD9K7QL4efEZzJa+LkiTtX5x3iUaQrGsL7JYuAVhpYsw90cijybOd0oBRr+SFD QTufQPJp+w6dh9FXYTaYPDpEj28Wj5Z59ZAkkgddkaF7I6ivLo35ffCixqKFTSfbtY/o MLaeplc64H36pgUjyibHpWpYCfMU3sSXD7aHFFwvPeSmth9zVLrexdIVprj8FXbQg8SZ vZxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pSGuhXnntBF40wNidEJz0txcPNT3Yzabix/UoeuceCc=; b=sIzmYUiXRWqQJP8PesydJiYbrSdxLwiCDhL4QHaJxvBRzfqcWgalBq0dt2XWuwTNAf Q0M1O9zMIuN1YvsQR7fksr8ASc16qziPtMjULKcXQ2Z4T6SMh91gYNoYIeYAITzp+tnY B7FkArvg8vKiaO/lT7c7EIck4bAtjthL6plArXTbM0P8l2qWaPTeQlnzZWvLvG2z2Zvk 9jbBhJ073BTgJzrxlHiLVyFts9Vx8VXxTgSR1Ypn+5k2ukz46A3pQxVAG3ss87YvKjuO Co9cxS+nUADPK6sQ9ubH+pTyo/zJsmIrk6av3RxKusNNMsSmaEhaxLR3SZpnqV2uo5oc Yctw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wTsmPfWCdtphiSPY8fsmyCP8ofgHRrlWi3Ozxw5Gi3YZBDN1v XgItG6x6v8C8AV9DhnilQX+RTYjBmt8vhWpIJ9Z77A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzx52HejeaXf7alwZ9OCqemr56YD1WWWSlXES339WCje4nxr8xTxz3M6p3jcPDjsEwmQAi1FWoPEvi8sGbi+58= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a4a5:: with SMTP id g5mr3527275ljm.176.1637029143566; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 18:19:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <366136f6-5985-7f49-f078-bfab67a64341@mozilla.com> <81bf1a7b-1d6c-0ca4-9374-7196622e1f8e@nthpermutation.com> <8a61129f-dc32-6472-f7ee-48035bd8cc3b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8a61129f-dc32-6472-f7ee-48035bd8cc3b@gmail.com> From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:18:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096eefd05d0de8cc8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Changes to model [was Principles / policies proposal} X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 02:19:13 -0000 --00000000000096eefd05d0de8cc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Below On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 20:21 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Note the narrowed subject header. > > On 16-Nov-21 11:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 11/15/21 3:03 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > >> On 11/15/2021 4:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >>> On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > ... > >>> It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: > >>> > >>> Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (either updating > or obsoleting > >>> this document) can be made only by agreement of the IAB, IESG, an= d > >>> IETF LLC. > >>> > >>> Is that correct? > >>> > >>> Peter > >> > >> I know discussion (or at least one email) has been going on for > >> inclusion of similar text (and I support the text you've crafted above= ) > >> and if we get consensus on that text, then the *set* of principles > >> doesn't need similar approval text (e.g. in the header). Some of the > >> items within the set may need some tagging as to which are tangible > >> things that can't be changed absent model change approval (maybe relat= ed > >> to Jays Principles vs Policies). > >> > >> I included similar language in the principles text as I wasn't sure wh= at > >> the final result would be on that discussion, and figured it was eithe= r > >> critical or just editorial depending on where we came down on the Mode= l > >> modification process. > > > > As I see it, the document as we have it right now (modulo editorial > > fixes and leaving aside for the moment the question of adding text abou= t > > principles) defines version 3 of the RFC Editor Model - that is, the > > operational framework for moving forward with management of the Series > > and for publishing policy documents in the Editorial Stream (but not fo= r > > publishing documents that redefine the Model itself). Therefore, text > > along the foregoing lines seems appropriate to me. > > > Fair enough, but then: > (a) Why are the Editorial, IRTF and Independent streams not required to > agree? > (b) The LLC needs a right to "[No] Objection", but as a servant of the > community, I don't think they are called upon to "agree". I thought this would be obvious, but the IESG, IAB, and LLC board (and I mostly mean board where I say LLC) have community proposed and confirmed memberships. Neither ISE or the IRTF share that characteristic, and this is not about the streams, but about the model. The IAB, IESG, and the LLC (board) are all servants of the community, or at least are expected to act in the best interest of the community. With respect to that characteristic, I see little difference between the three groups. The LLC also has fiscal reality it needs to measure against what this new model or tweaks to it might inflict making it useful for the LLC board to weigh in, even if it=E2=80=99s a this looks good, we trust you. Later, Mike > > Brian > > --00000000000096eefd05d0de8cc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Below=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 20:21 Brian E Car= penter <brian.e.carpenter= @gmail.com> wrote:
Note the= narrowed subject header.

On 16-Nov-21 11:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 11/15/21 3:03 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
>> On 11/15/2021 4:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> On 11/15/21 2:43 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
...
>>> It seems that you would suggest adding something like this: >>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Changes to the RFC Editor Model itself (eit= her updating
or obsoleting
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 this document) can be made only by agreemen= t of the IAB, IESG, and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF LLC.
>>>
>>> Is that correct?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> I know discussion (or at least one email) has been going on for >> inclusion of similar text (and I support the text you've craft= ed above)
>> and if we get consensus on that text, then the *set* of principles=
>> doesn't need similar approval text (e.g. in the header).=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Some of the
>> items within the set may need some tagging as to which are tangibl= e
>> things that can't be changed absent model change approval (may= be related
>> to Jays Principles vs Policies).
>>
>> I included similar language in the principles text as I wasn't= sure what
>> the final result would be on that discussion, and figured it was e= ither
>> critical or just editorial depending on where we came down on the = Model
>> modification process.
>
> As I see it, the document as we have it right now (modulo editorial > fixes and leaving aside for the moment the question of adding text abo= ut
> principles) defines version 3 of the RFC Editor Model - that is, the > operational framework for moving forward with management of the Series=
> and for publishing policy documents in the Editorial Stream (but not f= or
> publishing documents that redefine the Model itself). Therefore, text<= br> > along the foregoing lines seems appropriate to me.


Fair enough, but then:
(a) Why are the Editorial, IRTF and Independent streams not required to agr= ee?
(b) The LLC needs a right to "[No] Objection", but as a servant o= f the
community, I don't think they are called upon to "agree".


I thought this would be obvious, but the IESG, IAB, and LLC board= (and I mostly mean board where I say LLC) have community proposed and conf= irmed memberships. =C2=A0 Neither ISE or the IRTF share that characteristic= , and this is not about the streams, but about the model. =C2=A0

The IAB, IESG, and the LLC (board)= are all servants of the community, or at least are expected to act in the = best interest of the community.=C2=A0 With respect to that characteristic, = I see little difference between the three groups.=C2=A0 The LLC also has fi= scal reality it needs to measure against what this new model or tweaks to i= t might inflict making it useful for the LLC board to weigh in, even if it= =E2=80=99s a this looks good, we trust you.

Later, Mike




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

--00000000000096eefd05d0de8cc8-- From nobody Mon Nov 15 23:08:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8618C3A093A for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:08:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=lTEyZejH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=h8Zz07uo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDqsmpOYQ0Pr for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057793A0933 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D04A5C01D3 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 02:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 02:08:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=XJ/4TQZDLjMjZ7lI9Hw88V2faSWpaFK 28o7TUKQPKyE=; b=lTEyZejHBWX1dGuRDGoPMf5AURQEMwIV2vnttO/x8ZsY3mj 1072hJ/O5tn879ylMiuNfu5Bm4X/9Wjs/phvGMXSwhXqYrRdQ94d8J4jNhpF5yea ebacAWT9SHB8VXMkum5QTMmI90kajSSWep3ODrO6cMqv8kBcU3B2NfikdKHY0T+a awTnuq7TRly/7BJiilhP2zGBkU9duRLWfXVJIZyUUxxzr+JvTmndlRyx6oYs+/nZ hy7CSzUWw5corTnPdZ4K1IISBBwrwrrmGEYbwIs3PuPk2zafGNLT0HfTHka2XNgL 0Ej8otHYdbUqhAi/c8m/3302a1+mZJ+VuQZcl+g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=XJ/4TQ ZDLjMjZ7lI9Hw88V2faSWpaFK28o7TUKQPKyE=; b=h8Zz07uoS0IiUTN61xPGLM XilumEaKskdeCo+Xwb81NiBY7V/fr/KAzykTWFVirPkZFfHsWrT9Iy2+JvKna9l3 fY2orbufJYvcUnnTmoVypsXs2vZ7Sa2F7aXBzEEtaWJuop9R1lELXbQGolCSMrYG EmhCpQMMtPls9jqZtk76uZ+6rsR36XiFQIyDMYEtQIyuRRVukWAYuryrAZjZd1/6 oa9eARO9UKnOSmOj76Y52tOpp9vvGnxTX7dGU5kr/BmEy5xh0D+/HY+L2tNARmlI 1HpMn7Jy16IVS14n+qKNKHjamBfinwPRQ2tle7Qxckk9CYnrIVFom5fFJrgUiZzA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfedugdellecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeetueeikedtkeelfeekve fhkeffvedvvefgkefgleeugfdvjeejgeffieegtdejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 262713C0C6F; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 02:08:01 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:07:41 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:08:07 -0000 On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": > [...] I want to identify proposals that would > represent significant changes of direction and require an extra > (and broader) level of scrutiny. This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain lines. Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if someone wanted to: * eliminate the IAB stream * abolish April 1 RFCs * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) * outlaw Security Considerations sections * stop publishing affiliations for authors * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) * some other controversial thing But I don't know if there is much, if anything, left for the RSWG to do if we proscribe its remit so precisely. What subjects are both worth the time and effort required to run the RSWG/RSAB process and RFC publication, but do not directly address these principles? There are a few things perhaps, but even those are guided by principles and might require amending them. Our choice to allow Unicode under certain constraints required that we address a bunch of things here: software, fonts, language, accessibility. It was perhaps consistent with what Mike wrote, but would that be true for a proposal written prior to RFC 799x work? I'm not sure that I agree with all of the principles Mike proposed, but I certainly don't agree that we need a bigger process if we want to revise them. From nobody Tue Nov 16 01:21:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889953A0433 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uplkU06WejO2 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com 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Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:21:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------a0OPqWMaF92L8ee27LlpAb4q" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] on principles, policies, and approvals X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:21:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------a0OPqWMaF92L8ee27LlpAb4q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------qhlDrSjauvxFJdJ5I9enaFMf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: on principles, policies, and 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All:

What I am seeing is the following:

  • By any reasonable measure, there is not rough consensus to include Mike's proposal.
  • We do not yet have rough consensus to move forward on the document without some changes.

Everyone agrees in principle (so to speak) that there may be some principles upon which we can find agreement, but that leaves a lot of deep-rooted disagreement on some principles and even more deep-rooted disagreement about attendant policies, and where and how to do the work.=C2=A0 Everyone must recognize that now with an = eye towards solutions if this effort is to succeed.

There are three aspects to consider:

  1. The principles themselves
  2. The policies tied to principles
  3. The level of approval needed to change (1) and (2)

There is no consensus on each of these points, but they matter more or less depending on the interplay.=C2=A0 Let's look at them individually and then together:

1.=C2=A0 The Principles Themselves

Contrary to what has been repeatedly claimed, this community ha= s previously debated these principles in one form or another (please review the Spring/Summer 2020 archives), and we stopped when it became clear that people had positions that were not going to move.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But there are some principles upon which we could= possibly find agreement.=C2=A0 For instance, nobody has ever said that they = said it would be ok to charge for RFCs, nor do I think we would find much opposition to the principle of accessibility, though there may be some disagreement on how to instantiate that principle into detailed policy.

2=C2=A0=C2=A0 The Policies Behind the Principles

Some insist that principles carry with them normative weight and others might suffer the principles being there if they were aspirational.=C2=A0 It is possible to split those into two groups.=C2= =A0 There are examples of how this as worked in the past.=C2=A0 RFC 202= 6 lays out goals, which themselves really are principles.=C2=A0 They = are brief, high level, and non-normative.=C2=A0 The policies are separa= te and not linked in any fashion.

3. The level of effort needed to change policies and principles

Some want to require higher levels of approval to change policies and priniciples and others see that as far too constraining.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Proponents want to enshrine principles in order to establish trust in the process.=C2=A0 Opponents find that if they cannot evolve the= process, then the RSWG exercise is pointless.

The IAB and IESG have very rarely approved the same RFC.=C2=A0 I t= hink the last one was in 2016, and I was the co-author.=C2=A0 Prior to t= hat we have to go back to 2005 and RFC 4333.=C2=A0 In that time, the RF= C Editor model itself was updated three times (2009, 2012, and 2020).=C2=A0 I will point out that the approval process for this dr= aft itself is this group and then the IAB.=C2=A0 I know of no process t= hat has required the approval of the IAB, the IESG, and the LLC.

The Interplay and Options

We have to be realistic.=C2=A0

First, those opposing addition of any principles or policies have to recognize that the consensus likely isn't there to move such a draft forward.

On the other hand, those supporting inclusion of principles and policies should recognize that very few minds have changed over several years.=C2=A0 We have been debating these matters both here = in 2020 and even before that point in RFC++.=C2=A0 If the approval bar= for changes to principles and policies is higher than approval of this document, then the only ones one can reasonably expect to see in this document are the ones upon which there already exists rough consensus.=C2=A0 While that might not be particularly satisfying to anyone, it might allow things to proceed.=C2=A0 We ca= n poll to determine where that rough consensus lies.

It is also possible to set the approval bar at the same level, agree on what we can agree, and then try to resolve differences over time in a way that doesn't block other work that likely wouldn't offend anyone's principles.=C2=A0 That would mean, practically, RSWG->IAB for such changes, and they would have to be documented in a different IAB track RFC.=C2=A0 Personally I thin= k RSWG->RSAB is a higher bar.=C2=A0 You be the judge.

It might also be possible to state something akin to what is in 2026.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But that doesn't limit the scope of the RSWG or R= SAB.=C2=A0 To some that is a benefit and to others a negative.=C2=A0 We could app= ly some mix of this list and some normative policies that have rough consensus.

Finally, the status quo is still possible: we can leave things as they are.=C2=A0 This is the default (by definition).=C2=A0 T= hat would mean that the RSOC continues, RFC 8728 remains in force, and the IAB's role would be unchanged.=C2=A0 I see this as greater than= a 50/50 possibility at this point.

Others may see other possibilities, but those possibilities have to respect the reality that there are differences in how people see the future / "heritage" of the series.

Eliot

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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoo7h8lOeS0u for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 202163A05A0 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HtqHd5Xzfz1ntwp; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:10:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637075421; bh=iFyTIlgpoB67SrV8CbMT1kMrHDhk+Cw5WsDsKQsNWrg=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=K1fQlVwzTRQAqkv+aE9Fg+cOZlTKcVzYsJTHFCR3Mll1XgwxEj6tqNox4GRuTNy7i SJQ94XD8Mq+ul8arky0eObsKhWWcf5kDUVzhaGB52TbMnTd1hCjXYSHRjeBhA+/d/+ AonmHeB09toi8wuvsyNIA1vW1Jb9OPilHYk/n9gI= X-Quarantine-ID: <1OxnBAwbrmMg> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HtqHd0VD1z1nsq0; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 07:10:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:10:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:10:27 -0000 If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that. And she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. I try hard not to read into other people's statements. But I am left with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike's list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change. If so, would people please state them? Yours, Joel On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": >> [...] I want to identify proposals that would >> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra >> (and broader) level of scrutiny. > > This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. > > Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain lines. > > Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if someone wanted to: > * eliminate the IAB stream > * abolish April 1 RFCs > * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) > * outlaw Security Considerations sections > * stop publishing affiliations for authors > * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) > * some other controversial thing > > But I don't know if there is much, if anything, left for the RSWG to do if we proscribe its remit so precisely. What subjects are both worth the time and effort required to run the RSWG/RSAB process and RFC publication, but do not directly address these principles? > > There are a few things perhaps, but even those are guided by principles and might require amending them. Our choice to allow Unicode under certain constraints required that we address a bunch of things here: software, fonts, language, accessibility. It was perhaps consistent with what Mike wrote, but would that be true for a proposal written prior to RFC 799x work? > > I'm not sure that I agree with all of the principles Mike proposed, but I certainly don't agree that we need a bigger process if we want to revise them. > From nobody Tue Nov 16 13:01:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939D53A091E for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtYKUtoMAvvc for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2247F3A0921 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id w22so326686ioa.1 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hXQgykCNDqkynmfXp6bHndp/B5+fUg8bZfI0MVCx3C8=; b=Wg3UoqeW0zeHvPb6HEI//yHBwhzYDJG6g3nIpJJg8M8XXhJ2zj66myHlXeEmh5E2Cb Zn2H4FaczGXVMIk1bb7EEG4w/YLiQ4X90UUcpbjKIxxoTtZ8EELc5P/R2X1JgF+3VRKL rdzpyd0NIi/2EWx6hhcgw18MEd0ZjRlhwZ72A= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hXQgykCNDqkynmfXp6bHndp/B5+fUg8bZfI0MVCx3C8=; b=qXnPWF6yrK5UyEI8b79I8HkuSgQu3Vp3FiTYSSmRv1Xbf0pgJAqUSgo3Sxg580/S2t Q1R3a8tJUTsM9iDamRfQvyqW6dwzHVsCzkPJCZX3AGoMbbvukeo/3Wkdk8eFhfipTrGX jmZZnvyL4MgZbyJV767mGqE8EaI9u5ZFAlDUe09eEZ1V96WsNpiKt6ZHODged6NsEVDy eNn7YP/aFqsCoVb3lOpb8LUi//ePxpMkW6SFuI1yiYF+Y/jpNnngudTk5tdkKicTmFlq qUA8kS3TlJrPT2ZrcZmtOMguyah1QutF5B1X9mP0W9rvcwLkCHBg6S3VFd3OCWOHK+YD mg1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532AMg86w+s2hit/0KxYhWxw29GRzDnB4I1L6kqV6jEl7w1fyCo1 WAQFTT1aX/C4qbwPso3pJOhb7mNbwta5Vw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQhGxN+N/Z4YFAZChhCZA0KJombAgUimxOzO8VTLHncCs14oLRE4j02nD2UvZSRWkB8B1Q5g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:224d:: with SMTP id m13mr8368197jas.86.1637096481441; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b9sm11676340ilo.73.2021.11.16.13.01.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:01:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1eaf4980-c713-e087-d6a3-8b8a2978b133@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:01:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Colin Perkins Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 21:01:29 -0000 Thanks again, Colin. Comments inline where necessary (I've elided items that I've already already addressed elsewhere). On 11/5/21 2:01 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > I’ve re-read this draft, and while I still have some concerns, I can live with the content. Some comments below, many but not all of which are editorial. > > Apologies if these overlap with previous comments. > Section 2, 2nd paragraph: > >> By contrast, version 3 of the RFC Editor Model, specified here, >> provides a more consensus-oriented framework (similar in some >> respects to the structure of technical work within the IETF or IRTF) > > The IRTF lacks the explicit requirement for consensus that exists in IETF, so it might be clearer to just use the IETF as the example here. Agreed. > Section 3, 1st paragraph: > >> Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined in the open >> through proposals that are generated by and discussed within the RFC >> Series Working Group (RSWG) and then approved by the RFC Series >> Approval Board (RSAB). > > The phrase “defined in the open” could be clearer. Maybe “defined through open and public discussion” or similar? Agreed. > “generated by..the RSWG” - implies that proposals can only be generated by the group, but we also want to allow proposals to originate elsewhere and submitted to the RSWG for discussion. My working text now reads as follows (incorporating feedback from others as well): ### Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined via open and public discussion through proposals that are adopted by and discussed within the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), that pass a last call for comments in the working group and broader community, and that are then approved by the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB). ### > Section 3.1.1: > >> The intent is that >> the RSWG operate in a way similar to working groups in the IETF and >> research groups in the IRTF. Therefore, all RSWG meetings shall be >> open to any participant, > > The combination of these can be read as open to any participant in the IETF and IRTF. Perhaps “All RSWG meeting shall be open to all interested persons” to match the later text? Agreed. > Section 3.1.2: > >> The appointing bodies shall determine their own processes for >> appointing RSAB members... > > In cases where the IRTF Chair or ISE appoints a delegate, this section uses the term "appointing body” to refer to both the IRTF Chair/ISE, as the appointing body for the RSAB delegate, and to the IAB as appointing body for the IRTF Chair/ISE, within a single paragraph. This may cause confusion. I propose: ### The appointing bodies, i.e., the stream approval bodies (IESG, IAB, IRTF chair, ISE), shall determine their own processes for appointing RSAB members (note that processes related to the RSCE are described in {{rsce}}). Each appointing body shall have the power to remove its appointed RSAB member at its discretion at any time. Appointing bodies should ensure that voting members are seated at all times and should fill any vacancies with all due speed, if necessary on a temporary basis. In the case that the IRTF chair or ISE is incapacitated or otherwise unable to appoint another person to serve as a delegate, the IAB (as the appointing body for the IRTF chair and ISE respectively) shall act as the temporary appointing body for those streams and shall appoint a temporary member of the RSAB until the IAB has appointed an IRTF chair or ISE, who can then act as an RSAB member or appoint a delegate through normal processes. ### > > >> Whenever a new stream is created, > > Implies that new streams will be created. It should perhaps be “If a new stream is created”. I like "If and when..." >> The RSAB shall annually choose a chair from among its members using a >> method of its choosing. If the chair position is vacated during the >> chair's term, the RSAB should choose a new chair from among its >> members. > > Is it possible for the RSAB chair to step down from the chair role, but remain on the RSAB as a stream representative? I see no reason why not. > If the RSAB chair position is vacated because the representative steps down from the RSAB, is there a requirement that the RSAB wait for their replacement to be appointed before selecting a new chair? I don't think so. > Section 3.2.2: > >> 1. An individual participant in the RSWG generates a proposal in the >> form of an Internet-Draft, which is submitted in full conformance > > Should specify where it is submitted. > > “An individual participant” - unclear if this is intended to exclude the RSAB members and RSWG chairs, or if they are allowed to submit as individuals but not as holders of those roles. I assume the latter is intended, but the draft should be clarified. That wording also doesn't include the possibility of multiple authors. I suggest: ### 1. An individual or set of individuals generates a proposal in the form of an Internet-Draft (which must be submitted in full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 {{RFC5378}} and BCP 79 {{RFC8179}}) and asks the RSWG to adopt the proposal as a working group item. ### > Bullet 3 in Section 3.2.2 explicitly calls out that the RSWG chairs are also expected to participate as individuals. Given that, it would be useful to also highlight here that RSAB members are also expected to participate as individuals. See above. >> 5. After a comment period of suitable length, the RSWG chairs will >> determine whether rough consensus for the proposal exists... > > Are the RSWG chairs expected to publicly announce the outcome of the last call? Good point. I suggest that we add a sentence like this: Once the chairs determine that consensus has been reached, they shall announce their determination on the RSWG discussion list and forward the document to the RSAB. >> 6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a >> community call for comments as further described below. If >> substantial comments have been received, the RSWG will again >> consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit. At >> this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal. > > The “If substantial comments have been received…” text is unclear. Should it be “If substantial comments are received in response to the community call for comments, the RSAB may return the draft to the RSWG to consider those comments and make revisions as they see fit”? > > “At this same time, the RSAB will also consider the proposal” - at which time? Unclear if this is while the community call for comments is ongoing, while the RSWG is revising the draft, or after the community call for comments has concluded and any revisions have been made. Here's what I have now: ### 6. Once consensus is established in the RSWG, the RSAB shall issue a community call for comments as further described in {{cfc}}. If substantial comments are received in response to the community call for comments, the RSAB may return the draft to the RSWG to consider those comments and make revisions to address the feedback received. In parallel with the community call for comment, the RSAB shall also consider the proposal. ### >> 8. Once all comments have been addressed, the RSWG chairs will >> submit the proposal to the RSAB for its consideration. > > This seems that it should happen before step 6, to trigger the RSAB to look at the document and issue the community call for comments. See text above. > Step 8 would seem better phrased as the RSWG chairs confirming that that believe comments have been addressed and the document is ready for RSAB ballot. That seems reasonable. How about this? 8. Once the RSWG chairs confirm that feedback received during the community call(s) for comment has been addressed, they shall inform the RSAB that the document is ready for balloting by the RSAB. >> A position of CONCERN may be filed for two reasons: >> >> * The proposal represents a serious problem for the stream or group >> that a particular member represents. > > Is an RSAB member permitted to file a CONCERN ballot if they believe a proposal represents a serious problem for one of the other streams? We could say: * The proposal represents a serious problem for one or more of the individual streams. > I’d expect that such issues would be resolved by discussion between the RSAB members leading to the representative for the stream concerned raising a CONCERN, but what happens if there is disagreement amongst the RSAB members? Well, there always might be disagreement. What exactly do you have in mind? Something like the IRTF representative raising a CONCERN about the impact on the Independent stream, but the ISE disagreeing? >> Because RSAB members should have been participating in discussions >> within the RSWG, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a >> surprise to the RSWG. > > I agree with the intent, but the phrasing allows for bad-faith accusations of surprise. Perhaps something like "RSAB members are expected to participate in the discussions within the RSWG, and raise any concerns and issues during those discussions; accordingly, no position of CONCERN should ever come as a surprise to the RSWG”. WFM. > It’s possible that an RSAB member will be made aware of an issue late in the process that would lead to them issuing a CONCERN. It’s obviously desirable if concerns are raised early, but that can’t be guaranteed. An RSAB member needs to be able to raise a late CONCERN (i.e., concern ballots “SHOULD NOT” come as a surprise, not “MUST NOT” come as a surprise). It would be useful to clarify that there are sometimes legitimate cases where a CONCERN may be a surprise, although this should be rare. Agreed. I'll add something like this: Notwithstanding, late CONCERN positions are always possible if issues are identified during RSAB review.. >> 1. If a CONCERN exists, discussion will take place within the RSWG. >> Again, all RSAB members are expected to participate. >> >> 2. A proposal without any CONCERN positions is approved. If >> substantial changes have been made in order to address CONCERN >> positions, an additional call for community input might be >> needed. > > Agree with the intent, but would have expected the second sentence of point 2 to be included in point 1. > > Also, “have been made” -> “are made" Agreed. >> 3. If, after a suitable period of time, any CONCERN positions >> remain, a vote of the RSAB is taken. If at least three voting >> members vote YES, the proposal is approved. > > I’m not entirely happy with this, but accept the consensus. However, we also allow for additional streams to be created with their own voting members. If that happens, does this threshold change? It would seem that it should. We had some discussion about that on list and didn't find a solution that addressed this concern. We could, of course, punt this to the future: if another stream is created, the RFC that does so could also update this document regarding the number of YES votes needed for approval. >> Notices will always be sent to the rfc-interest mailing list. The >> RSAB and RSWG should also send notices to other communities that may >> be interested in or impacted by a proposal as they see fit, following >> policies for those communities as appropriate. > > > Should this also say that: "RSAB members should distribute notice of the call for comments to the communities they represent”? Yes. >> The IETF anti-harassment policy >> (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment- >> policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB, > > I agree that the policy should apply, but the linked IESG statement and RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need updating to explicitly include the RSWG? Maybe? The program chairs should talk with the IESG about this. > Section 4.1: > >> * The general roles and responsibilities of the RPC are defined by >> RFCs published in the Editorial Stream (i.e., not directly by the >> RSWG, RSAB, or RSCE). > > Needs clarification: changes to the roles and responsibilities of the RPC will be defined in this way. The existing roles and responsibilities remain and are not defined by Editorial stream RFCs (since, at present, there is no editorial stream). I think this was fixed by addressing feedback from someone else. >> The IETF LLC is responsible for the method of and management of the >> engagement of the RPC. Therefore, the IETF LLC has authority over >> negotiating performance targets for the RPC and also has >> responsibility for ensuring that those targets are adhered to. The >> IETF LLC is empowered to appoint a manager or to convene a committee >> to complete these activities. > > Are there any constraints on who the LLC can appoint or on the membership of the committee they may convene? Performance targets can be a contentious issue. I defer to Jay on this topic. >> 4.2. Implementation-Specific Policies > > This section seems perhaps under-specified. Based on past history, I expect the RPC will no something reasonable, but the boundaries of its authority to set policy are not well defined here. We're trying to find the right balance between specifying too much and too little. Do you have suggestions for improvement? > Section 4.4, 1st paragraph: "IRSG research group chair” -> “IRTF research group chair” ACK > Section 5.2: > >> Periodically, the IETF LLC will evaluate the performance of the RSCE, >> including a call for confidential input from the community. The IETF >> LLC will produce a draft performance evaluation for the RSAB (not > > Might be clearer as “…will produce a draft evaluation of the RSCE’s performance for review by the RSAB…”? Sure. >> 6. Editorial Stream > > I still think this section needs to be explicit that Experimental RFCs cannot be published on the Editorial stream, rather than leaving it implied. I'd rather not re-open that can of worms. >> Appendix A. Changes from Version 2 of the RFC Editor Model > > The content of the Appendix is fine, modulo the nits below, but I would like to see it moved to a main section of the document to make it clear that its contents are as normative as those in the rest of the document. That's fine with me. >> A.5. RFC Series Oversight Committee (RSOC) > > The phrasing in this section is imprecise: “abolishes”, “disbands”, or “disestablishes” would be clearer. In another thread we settled on "disbands". >> A.6. RFC Series Advisory Group (RSAG) > > "For the avoidance of doubt, this document affirms that the RSAG is obsolete and its charter is no longer in force” – there seems a strange reluctance to be explicit here: the RSAB has been abolished and no longer exists. I think we can use "disbanded" here as well. 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just on this:

On 16.11.21 22:01, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 The IETF anti-harassment policy
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/ie= sg/statements/anti-harassment-
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB,

I agree that the policy should apply, but the linked IESG statement and RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need updating to explicitly include the RSWG?

Maybe? The program chairs should talk with the IESG about this.

I think the only issue here is whether the ombudspeople will take up issues from this group.=C2=A0 They might be quite busy.=C2=A0 It= is good to confirm as we iron out other details.

Eliot

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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzIfOprq3SAN for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2576D3A09D2 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:03:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 1AGM34vM015551; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:03:04 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606444604B; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:03:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5250646048; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:03:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 16 Nov 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en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.106.70 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1018-26534.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.166-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.166-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1018-26534.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--25.165700-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: Kx0w2sAofbu9GVQT/CmkaDYTypjB3iDVJuDBbd4NSqSGE3yy/nZe5Uy1 Xqez2xw1pNSrQUf7wEs5FeaVnwctxTEc5EGE6lZt3zen1b+Th8pBmlBF/IJ0fAg2kgWdt3qar4K jTNrV9yaHZJ9/22QrSNTRNRh9g8LqzG9tl60RTJzZB7UNWpEfLxmyTBaqiJvc+S5C/08hWc1XSj NjHplub0UC8xjOyiAY2JQIay1uW0YZqmKZ8eTVdgXlKcEciy76+KgiyLtJrSBLpCLN4NR43sk/G VWf/TQ5fprmgYl22Ms9gRGDrUABKnPixVYoX1xj9Ib/6w+1lWSteS443ymeUTGQt2RbsLmqZMh9 L/2PXlIx/FYwZA034UmlX2scVfePNuVzoZ6LieUItCy6ZX/lL4IWSprjdsebAy6/bz1VsIjFQNP Eve+5IPj696hz7L2ZZmGkOF0fx8wsS7de5tK9AWK3N9p/OFh6z8j+bxoiWAwXM2Z1UyweuKkWS6 gsaJykGJmxWFq4sSfhXTqHPDDVxuRZms8DIpYPGUubsVz8TekFoTFl6ollssO/l0Ny5PZ5oq4eQ osN8nzOH38lNbOoTBQAXi4Ga9GRlcWN/Q0QByxIquHKOC7oobDszp3K5gqDLVdRllUTWIVZa77R ExGD3jVKPO8gx8MJHB3s9k7jHXUzb4qBNJmdXQ== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:03:14 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01D7DB35.BA783A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, RFC 7776 was deliberately scoped to =E2=80=9Cthe IETF=E2=80=9D. =20 Might I suggest that, whether or not the RSWG forms part of the IETF, if = its business is conducted on an email list hosted by the IETF and if its = meetings are conducted as part of IETF meetings, then that will be = covered by RFC 7776. =20 Colin can probably explain how the IRTF has handled the issue and we can = adopt that approach. =20 Cheers, Adrian =20 From: Rfced-future On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear Sent: 16 November 2021 21:06 To: Peter Saint-Andre ; Colin Perkins = Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 =20 Just on this: On 16.11.21 22:01, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: The IETF anti-harassment policy=20 (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment-=20 policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB,=20 I agree that the policy should apply, but the linked IESG statement and = RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need updating to explicitly include = the RSWG?=20 Maybe? The program chairs should talk with the IESG about this. I think the only issue here is whether the ombudspeople will take up = issues from this group. They might be quite busy. It is good to = confirm as we iron out other details. Eliot ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01D7DB35.BA783A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, RFC 7776 was deliberately = scoped to =E2=80=9Cthe IETF=E2=80=9D.

 

Might I = suggest that, whether or not the RSWG forms part of the IETF, if its = business is conducted on an email list hosted by the IETF and if its = meetings are conducted as part of IETF meetings, then that will be = covered by RFC 7776.

 

Colin can = probably explain how the IRTF has handled the issue and we can adopt = that approach.

 

Cheers,

Adrian

 

From: Rfced-future = <rfced-future-bounces@iab.org> On Behalf Of Eliot = Lear
Sent: 16 November 2021 21:06
To: Peter = Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>; Colin Perkins = <csp@csperkins.org>
Cc: = rfced-future@iab.org
Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program = Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov = 2021

 

Just on = this:

On 16.11.21 22:01, Peter = Saint-Andre wrote:



    The = IETF anti-harassment policy
    (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment- =
    policy/) also applies to the RSWG and RSAB, =


I agree that the policy should apply, but = the linked IESG statement and RFCs are very IETF specific. Do they need = updating to explicitly include the RSWG? =


Maybe? The = program chairs should talk with the IESG about = this.

I think the only issue here is = whether the ombudspeople will take up issues from this group.  They = might be quite busy.  It is good to confirm as we iron out other = details.

Eliot

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[76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a18sm10083520ioe.13.2021.11.16.14.46.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:46:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <275fccad-8db9-0719-2429-caf22266569a@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:46:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:46:47 -0000 Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end. On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC > from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE > function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too > few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want > to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd > prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an > unmanageable COI for the RSCE. Jay, what is your perspective on this? Peter From nobody Tue Nov 16 15:01:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BAE3A0A68 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id caVcxCHyNEgo for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3F0E3A0A60 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:01:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=pxwiyA5HUkQHyffnDArDmMdqrjcmZ0zaw1E3xJtwPQc=; b=Qhm756XTVaKgcn7/ZPP6lRJ5pc iSfl7cKjM9PGBKH7LOyG5koiBBSA8GSJO/whE1pW4vRtKsaK8FiANCvGgv6ekrVuTgXYAHavfMszW xt6/0ttwO1AxPQb89GrnDllsV2E/Pji8LsFPsQlzfvqOEDlBA2WWMPThS6IWg8RUINY9hABHD+oeZ IalFbYtCDXS8735T/n4hYvSC0tXi/nItm293gnKLXyCvN2UUU4n12xDUq8V45XzQbeuXD+Cgfe81U EL9YREGcX+sMg81VW/N5kf1Wp/x6gOWhhT2QOy6uQfuj09pmU3rRFODnQwK5AynfTlKDxznBQdgkz AqFILfIQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=36194 helo=[192.168.0.67]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mn7Rf-0007sQ-9h; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:00:59 +0000 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6A253998-8C14-4438-AA2D-43D8B58AB795" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:00:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: <008e01d7db35$ba783a30$2f68ae90$@olddog.co.uk> Cc: Eliot Lear , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org To: Adrian Farrel References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <886F4F59-7561-4467-8FC8-6E710AE287D3@csperkins.org> <1eaf4980-c713-e087-d6a3-8b8a2978b133@mozilla.com> <69651087-4a42-fe82-64e6-b6c78e17a062@lear.ch> <008e01d7db35$ba783a30$2f68ae90$@olddog.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:01:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6A253998-8C14-4438-AA2D-43D8B58AB795 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 16 Nov 2021, at 22:03, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > Yes, RFC 7776 was deliberately scoped to =E2=80=9Cthe IETF=E2=80=9D. > =20 > Might I suggest that, whether or not the RSWG forms part of the IETF, = if its business is conducted on an email list hosted by the IETF and if = its meetings are conducted as part of IETF meetings, then that will be = covered by RFC 7776. > =20 > Colin can probably explain how the IRTF has handled the issue and we = can adopt that approach. The IRTF has handled this by stating that the IETF anti-harassment = policy applies, and informally involving the ombudsteam when needed. = Pete Resnick and I have been talking about the need to formalise this, = however, via a document updating RFC 7776. That=E2=80=99s on my to-do = list to prepare. (The situation for IRTF is a little more complex than that for the RSWG, = since the IRTF also has to specify the intersection with SIGCOMM CARES = for the ANRW.) Colin --Apple-Mail=_6A253998-8C14-4438-AA2D-43D8B58AB795 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 16 Nov 2021, at 22:03, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>= wrote:

Yes, RFC = 7776 was deliberately scoped to =E2=80=9Cthe IETF=E2=80=9D.
 
Might I suggest that, whether or not the RSWG forms part of = the IETF, if its business is conducted on an email list hosted by the = IETF and if its meetings are conducted as part of IETF meetings, then = that will be covered by RFC 7776.
 
Colin can probably explain how the IRTF has handled the issue = and we can adopt that approach.

The IRTF has handled this by stating that the IETF = anti-harassment policy applies, and informally involving the = ombudsteam when needed. Pete Resnick and I have been talking about the = need to formalise this, however, via a document updating RFC 7776. = That=E2=80=99s on my to-do list to prepare.

(The situation for IRTF is a little more complex = than that for the RSWG, since the IRTF also has to specify the = intersection with SIGCOMM CARES for the ANRW.)

Colin

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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d23sm9547952qtm.11.2021.11.16.15.07.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:07:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------V9M4go3Jl7hvrUqUlLYht2O1" Message-ID: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:07:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <275fccad-8db9-0719-2429-caf22266569a@mozilla.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <275fccad-8db9-0719-2429-caf22266569a@mozilla.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:07:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------V9M4go3Jl7hvrUqUlLYht2O1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end. > > On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > >> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  >> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't >> make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. > > Jay, what is your perspective on this? > > Peter > This is from Jay's 5 November email. > Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the > RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the > RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There > are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may > not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved > around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working > for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. > > Not editorial. > > Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, > and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many > things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good > technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we > need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work > subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue? > > I can’t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC > and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn’t > allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend > independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted > work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but > rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE > contract.  Maybe there might be a situation where the RPC has a > staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill > but that still wouldn’t be a COI. > AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services.  That suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be sticky about it. Mike --------------V9M4go3Jl7hvrUqUlLYht2O1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end.

On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Jay, what is your perspective on this?

Peter


This is from Jay's 5 November email.

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue?

I can’t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn’t allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE contract.  Maybe there might be a situation where the RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn’t be a COI. 

AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services.  That suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be sticky about it. 

Mike


--------------V9M4go3Jl7hvrUqUlLYht2O1-- From nobody Tue Nov 16 15:15:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C883C3A0A71 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZDB8JQj2at4 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8066D3A0A70 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D794B1A6F4; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QiDEnNhG2NdE; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (115-189-83-5.mobile.spark.co.nz [115.189.83.5]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E237D4112A6F; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:15:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BE4D9A7E-1653-475F-B333-7785B1510BDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:15:35 +1300 Message-Id: <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> References: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:15:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail-BE4D9A7E-1653-475F-B333-7785B1510BDE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end.=20 >>=20 >>> On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:=20 >>>=20 >>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC f= rom contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE funct= ion. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There are too few people= that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full t= ime person for some of the tasks we've moved around. I'd prefer making it e= xplicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for t= he RSCE.=20 >>=20 >> Jay, what is your perspective on this?=20 >>=20 >> Peter=20 >>=20 >=20 > This is from Jay's 5 November email. >=20 >> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC f= rom contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE funct= ion. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There are too few people= that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full t= ime person for some of the tasks we've moved around. I'd prefer making it e= xplicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for t= he RSCE. >>=20 >> Not editorial. >>=20 >> Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and= I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they w= on't necessarily be good at. Given how few good technical editor/publisher c= andidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shou= ldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC. Open an issue? >>=20 >> I can=E2=80=99t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC= and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn=E2=80=99t all= ow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend independently so if the= RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work then I doubt the RPC would s= ubcontract with them directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC t= o add a SoW to the RSCE contract. Maybe there might be a situation where th= e RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfi= ll but that still wouldn=E2=80=99t be a COI.=20 > AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services. That suggests t= hat subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs. Either addin= g tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling the RSCE role wo= rk directly for the RPC for somethings are both reasonable and legal approac= hes. The former would by definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't b= ut the LLC could be sticky about it. =20 >=20 I don=E2=80=99t object to explicitly saying =E2=80=9CThe RPC may subcontract= the RSCE=E2=80=9D or something similar. I prefer framing it like this as wh= at is allowed rather than trying to describe what is not allowed. =20 Jay > Mike >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail-BE4D9A7E-1653-475F-B333-7785B1510BDE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJ= ohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20
On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end.

On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Jay, what is your perspective on this?

Peter


This is from Jay's 5 November email.

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be= disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might wan= t to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.   = Open an issue?

I can=E2=80=99t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and b= oth the RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn=E2=80=99t allow for any sort of project fund for t= he RPC to spend independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE contract.  Maybe there might be a situation where the RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn=E2=80=99t be a COI. 

AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services.  That= suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be sticky about it. 


I don=E2=80=99t object to explicitly s= aying =E2=80=9CThe RPC may subcontract the RSCE=E2=80=9D or something simila= r. I prefer framing it like this as what is allowed rather than trying to de= scribe what is not allowed.  

Jay

Mike


=20 --
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu= re
= --Apple-Mail-BE4D9A7E-1653-475F-B333-7785B1510BDE-- From nobody Tue Nov 16 15:17:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA213A0A73 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VXRtMAQyZrwn for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B39C3A0A70 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id l19so890331ilk.0 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z4qoDMTpe/SA/NZgdOuawpCpcqtF+p0U9wiZsnJ5jsY=; b=G/hShlVLizolfd9aXNjoesstM155wJjYS4kJ9I/cGiWCADfV2zmB8CuMbNAk++PFmS IhYCdAcXJIv4M7r4mEf5Zi4pUdoFmamu9YD+kg/hYQAyRqThiHhl0YWw5kYJk9lGEPhH CF/IR/GegtJpwc6H+QbJymPEBLML9FFdUioz4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=z4qoDMTpe/SA/NZgdOuawpCpcqtF+p0U9wiZsnJ5jsY=; b=zRUpO+FCkixm9K+j5AmNhXVOuOWb8KCmHqNUnMYMC1jlBvl+kbFoEUvuolOrDJy2/v BrQM7eETj4z1238N6Eg4AzrAxsWOlQSID3vj6Xeq8LB7gVz5ozsUfNIiGSYUp/F4MqhW J+/rb2SingAceyNUyzJhCcdEmM2yDpEfB+FxzAUVANOtWbKLNAlMDAawbue/ARgOYecw rUo0yolVIzWiuKoyHuuoWwpi3ryUb5RnA7fL9/0s8gNOrrnGJm2bVLrvuq3/VvQpkrev OhuscCuTeCuNtq9SN2wEyCid9DlKH+LZV79K5qj7UuoHYFk2XaqcgGM2K8rL5q73E/sc KPMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uRyam3XEnWbJ4M7ayBRkqTG41ZhKaBvhDFbak+EoHZ5/m4bxh A14XHNNDM4yAd5+LxuoXAjJ/hA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRHaMfjQ3CDa4nULqX0PMxg6dskfIJVm63kdJbTwZI0mIf0To8q/A18HNBMlNolPitC6WqVg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:18cb:: with SMTP id s11mr7188692ilu.266.1637104630769; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm12917375ilv.5.2021.11.16.15.17.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0ccf9c28-0e4b-9862-8429-daa84f26e564@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:17:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley , Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:17:17 -0000 On 11/16/21 4:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > > On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> >>  >> On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end. >>> >>> On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> >>>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >>>> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >>>> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". >>>> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >>>> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >>>> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC >>>> can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>> >>> Jay, what is your perspective on this? >>> >>> Peter >>> >> >> This is from Jay's 5 November email. >> >>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >>> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >>> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". >>> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >>> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >>> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't >>> make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>> >>> Not editorial. >>> >>> Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, >>> and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many >>> things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good >>> technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we >>> need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work >>> subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue? >>> >>> I can’t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC >>> and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn’t >>> allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend >>> independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra >>> contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them >>> directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a >>> SoW to the RSCE contract.  Maybe there might be a situation where >>> the RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the >>> RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn’t be a COI. >>> >> AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services.  That >> suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting >> needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the >> person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings >> are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by >> definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be >> sticky about it. >> > > I don’t object to explicitly saying “The RPC may subcontract the RSCE” > or something similar. I prefer framing it like this as what is allowed > rather than trying to describe what is not allowed. That seems reasonable. Would you mind proposing text? Peter From nobody Tue Nov 16 15:17:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6F83A0A71 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id spMLcL541ySw for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C111D3A0A78 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id t83so602707qke.8 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=buI8OSLzfTPHzQ9k6DgOfozpTILNAYKUyjUcD/YjaIo=; b=lLlnF6D+b8sntZl2q05uQPqx0eX2o7HlmR4kVxMvnkfji/lf9pNxYLbyxspbJ+GEIY wADINPT2wIG1Wd5ollNtoIm6micURegkLNJ7qghG9i6hXbWXJq4gEF8Aoa1dEsuLedA2 WpByAMKSqYg11Wfhx8mgO9HecU2G2xNjqxM3KT+I+G0Ru4TAYkS07Dh04Ugx4/7ifs5n 0LGaUPzc5M6l/lK06Aej8bCnbSrbJQqAa3oQSwZajIQcp/7E0uuUHGxmUc+mo10D2awZ /EdFYtd2kfo1XFFOIsxFba+GN37n1QlrhhuiVpd7qPDO4pbtbdlZp1XtDB+kuTZT4qYi HnRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=buI8OSLzfTPHzQ9k6DgOfozpTILNAYKUyjUcD/YjaIo=; b=fEoKECqwEBuV1cGJ6yFJxzi58EshZ588rg6M3fPyIaSwBadJF3IoH3jmFVC5dpR852 QVG9hM0pBQU/+mYu3wyZF3Wm/kxgyIDV6jGKBMPZO8du0/6+VFF0P7FEIn93Gsalq2+b rf3NapyfN9cLR/lVVZ8j+Rzm2C37suP2GRDfyjruoN80ahCNA6Ma/df5WwgKeo/QcxFM DlWR3iz4VCZq+6n1J365mOiJTdPY55PsYp5SdVOElyma76JqbTdG+KXaCeEZIYp4N0iM cRtMedzJvF5D/WAoteGsyESTI5sNOnLD0EWKF6W6vi/17Rj3FFrv5AgbaQmYAqdz1z8T Nhig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Ga4nRiWW5Qj0q5w7237t7hlRdpq6P0DcOEz2xdxl+ONWrgglr CaVxPmz55akXVjlYZr7OwNRYN4HlUrXm9NQw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycKn5XW4olgWCTUv0Yo/tnIqSx9Tfve6gWbTef/biFFqhQKJtKYrkJEuLgV1w/ni4dy8fGmA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a617:: with SMTP id p23mr9417433qke.466.1637104668670; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm5335222qkn.0.2021.11.16.15.17.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:17:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------YwmyLl2hp1QsFlfMHTxKr6EH" Message-ID: <32a51160-ed16-b206-bf22-9fffaee73453@nthpermutation.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:17:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org References: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:17:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------YwmyLl2hp1QsFlfMHTxKr6EH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/16/2021 6:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > > On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJohns > wrote: >> >>  >> On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end. >>> >>> On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> >>>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >>>> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >>>> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". >>>> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >>>> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >>>> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC >>>> can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>> >>> Jay, what is your perspective on this? >>> >>> Peter >>> >> >> This is from Jay's 5 November email. >> >>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the >>> RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing >>> the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  >>> There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the >>> RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks >>> we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC >>> can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>> >>> Not editorial. >>> >>> Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work >>> together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with >>> too many things they won't necessarily be good at. Given how few >>> good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I >>> think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from >>> work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue? >>> >>> I can’t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the >>> RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract >>> doesn’t allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend >>> independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra >>> contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them >>> directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a >>> SoW to the RSCE contract.  Maybe there might be a situation >>> where the RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly >>> contract the RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn’t be a COI. >>> >> AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services. That >> suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting >> needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the >> person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings >> are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by >> definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be >> sticky about it. >> > > I don’t object to explicitly saying “The RPC may subcontract the RSCE” > or something similar. I prefer framing it like this as what is allowed > rather than trying to describe what is not allowed. I'm OK with this.  Include "contracts disclosed" language as above. Mike > > Jay >> >> Mike >> >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --------------YwmyLl2hp1QsFlfMHTxKr6EH Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/16/2021 6:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote:

On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:


On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end.

On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Jay, what is your perspective on this?

Peter


This is from Jay's 5 November email.

Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the RSCE function.  Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly".  There are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around.  I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.

Not editorial.

Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too many things they won't necessarily be good at.  Given how few good technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work subcontracted from the RPC.    Open an issue?

I can’t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both the RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract doesn’t allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but rather negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE contract.  Maybe there might be a situation where the RPC has a staff shortage and wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill but that still wouldn’t be a COI. 

AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services.  That suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs.  Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings are both reasonable and legal approaches.  The former would by definition not cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be sticky about it. 


I don’t object to explicitly saying “The RPC may subcontract the RSCE” or something similar. I prefer framing it like this as what is allowed rather than trying to describe what is not allowed. 

I'm OK with this.  Include "contracts disclosed" language as above.

Mike




--------------YwmyLl2hp1QsFlfMHTxKr6EH-- From nobody Tue Nov 16 15:47:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774713A0A9F for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfujV_0Ekf3Y for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C9823A0AA8 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8878E4B1A6F4; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dYFNw3uesMzW; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC00F4112A6F; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 15:47:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <32a51160-ed16-b206-bf22-9fffaee73453@nthpermutation.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:47:33 +1300 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <90A257E0-5B01-4A1A-9F65-6DFF0E5114D6@ietf.org> References: <0e8d01e0-a7d9-25c9-1fd2-abe035bf045c@nthpermutation.com> <552AC86B-D8C0-473D-BC5E-DE10BCDF1BC4@ietf.org> <32a51160-ed16-b206-bf22-9fffaee73453@nthpermutation.com> To: Michael StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:47:46 -0000 > On 17/11/2021, at 12:17 PM, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 11/16/2021 6:15 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> On 17/11/2021, at 12:08 PM, Michael StJohns = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> On 11/16/2021 5:46 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> Thanks, Mike, I have a question for Jay on one point at the end.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 11/4/21 3:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude = the RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing = the RSCE function. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There = are too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may = not want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved = around. I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working = for the RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Jay, what is your perspective on this?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Peter=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This is from Jay's 5 November email. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Section 5.3 - Suggest adding "The COI policy shall not preclude the = RPC from contracting services from the person or entity performing the = RSCE function. Such contracts shall be disclosed publicly". There are = too few people that might want to engage with us, and the RPC may not = want to pay a full time person for some of the tasks we've moved around. = I'd prefer making it explicit that the LLC can't make working for the = RPC an unmanageable COI for the RSCE. >>>>=20 >>>> Not editorial. >>>>=20 >>>> Yup, but we're struggling on how the RSCE and RPC will work = together, and I have this feeling we're going to stick the RPC with too = many things they won't necessarily be good at. Given how few good = technical editor/publisher candidates I expect we'll get I think we need = to make clear that the LLC shouldn't COI the RSCE from work = subcontracted from the RPC. Open an issue? >>>>=20 >>>> I can=E2=80=99t see on what basis a COI would be imposed and both = the RPC and RSCE are working to a common goal. The RPC contract = doesn=E2=80=99t allow for any sort of project fund for the RPC to spend = independently so if the RPC wanted the RSCE to do extra contracted work = then I doubt the RPC would subcontract with them directly but rather = negotiate with the LLC for the LLC to add a SoW to the RSCE contract. = Maybe there might be a situation where the RPC has a staff shortage and = wants to directly contract the RSCE to backfill but that still = wouldn=E2=80=99t be a COI.=20 >>> AIRC, you're not buying bodies from the RPC, but services. That = suggests that subcontracting can happen to meet their contracting needs. = Either adding tasks to the SOW via the LLC or having the person filling = the RSCE role work directly for the RPC for somethings are both = reasonable and legal approaches. The former would by definition not = cause a COI, the latter shouldn't but the LLC could be sticky about it. =20= >>>=20 >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t object to explicitly saying =E2=80=9CThe RPC may = subcontract the RSCE=E2=80=9D or something similar. I prefer framing it = like this as what is allowed rather than trying to describe what is not = allowed. > I'm OK with this. Include "contracts disclosed" language as above. This is a bit long-winded but what I=E2=80=99m trying to do is insert = this into the existing LLC policy framework around contract publication, = COI etc rather than create a special case, "The RPC service provider may contract services from the RSCE service = provider, and vice versa, including for services provided to the IETF = LLC. All contracts between the two must be disclosed to the IETF LLC. = Where those services are related to services provided to the IETF LLC, = IETF LLC policies shall apply, including publication of relevant parts = of the contract." Jay > Mike >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Jay >>> Mike >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Nov 17 01:58:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0E83A0B9A; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:58:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.752 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.752 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Dürst wrote: > Hello Eric, others, > > A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to my > comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do that). > > On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> S 3.1.2. >> >>     *  As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member >>        or a member of the community selected by the IESG >> >>     *  As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB member or >>        a member of the community selected by the IAB >> >> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That >> seems to be what it says. > > Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think what > we wanted was something close to > >  *  As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably >     an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the community selected >     by the IESG > > (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or > decide it's not what we meant. I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not what we meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we should reconsider this. First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection could be very quick, no need to call for volunteers. Second, this could express our understanding that this job is not like some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in a while, but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially independent and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job is to stay in close contact with the assigning group or board. This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does this apply to the RSCE? What about liaison to the IESG? Regards, Martin. From nobody Wed Nov 17 02:08:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF963A0BC2; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:08:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NYuPrvLTDKAr; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5082E3A0BBC; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AHA89UN2625402 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:08:09 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637143690; bh=VI5H5ZW2xe00oS0Jj6rWZ66khMHmWdl0AfZ3d4sDWRo=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=chGtWNnkbOvetskDUzWKuA6cAbqQZol6RhZvqhNpKRXSfzhZ2NxviunOyqrqXlRuq 3mebGWHdv8rmHME/O0rGo/F88dP0X/qU+vQFJDUnIcPii+EO0pHA3ZiRTfJFrr66x5 2x6eJtpT+npIaO7kLrGOmXHbjcdV3yD9DDhjU1Gk= Message-ID: <02c0417e-b26d-051f-a7cc-244193032f14@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:08:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------fi02e4UMaP0M8uUo0FhigDUI" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:08:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------fi02e4UMaP0M8uUo0FhigDUI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------j6VXioEc6lz3b0udfuXw2QtN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Message-ID: <02c0417e-b26d-051f-a7cc-244193032f14@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> --------------j6VXioEc6lz3b0udfuXw2QtN Content-Type: text/plain; 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Halpern wrote: > If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with > enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that.  And > she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. > > I try hard not to read into other people's statements.  But I am left > with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike's > list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change.  If > so, would people please state them? It would indeed be good to have this. > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread >> entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": >>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would >>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra >>> (and broader) level of scrutiny. >> >> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. >> >> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain lines. >> >> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if >> someone wanted to: >> * eliminate the IAB stream >> * abolish April 1 RFCs >> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) >> * outlaw Security Considerations sections >> * stop publishing affiliations for authors >> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) >> * some other controversial thing These are all good examples, even if they are (on purpose, I know) a bit extreme. [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.] What I'm not sure is why terms such as "extraordinary process" or "extremely hard to change" are used. If the changes are indeed what the community wants, then it should be not too difficult to get the IESG, the IAB, and the LLC Board (in the texts we have, we should make it clear it's the Board, not just write LLC) to sign off on them. (I'm not married to the specifics, it could be just two of these, or some other combination >> But I don't know if there is much, if anything, left for the RSWG to >> do if we proscribe its remit so precisely.  What subjects are both >> worth the time and effort required to run the RSWG/RSAB process and >> RFC publication, but do not directly address these principles? Well, the RSWG is still the place where the actual work gets done. I think nobody is saying that the principles cannot be changed at all. But if they need to be changed, there are some details to be worked out. The example of non-ASCII text is a good one, see more below. My favorite example for something that doesn't touch the principles (if done right), but definitely needs some work (to do it right) would be "provide a way to integrate errata into RFCs". >> There are a few things perhaps, but even those are guided by >> principles and might require amending them. Our choice to allow >> Unicode under certain constraints required that we address a bunch of >> things here: software, fonts, language, accessibility. It was perhaps >> consistent with what Mike wrote, but would that be true for a proposal >> written prior to RFC 799x work? Very good question. I think this example is a very good test for our new process. I can very well imagine that before that work, the principles might have included something like "RFCs are written in US-ASCII with lines no longer than 72 characters,... for readability on the widest range of devices.". Now, would it make sense in that case to have had a somewhat more extensive approval process to change this? I guess yes. The RSWG would have to do most of the work of deciding under which conditions and in which places what non-ASCII characters would be allowed, at least to the extent that it could convince the community that the resulting RFCs would be an improvement over the status quo (e.g. because they brought us close to publication standards e.g. in the IEEE or the ACM, and allowed to use actual characters in examples where these characters were used). Ideally, this wouldn't come as a complete surprise for the IESG/IAB/LLC Board. If their representatives on the RSAB reported "back home" often enough, it could be more like a slam dunk. >> I'm not sure that I agree with all of the principles Mike proposed, >> but I certainly don't agree that we need a bigger process if we want >> to revise them. Even if we end up not having a process with somewhat higher procedural hurdles, it should be very clear that changing e.g. the name of an XML element (if that every rises to the level of policy and an RFC) would need much less scrutiny than e.g. the change from RFCs to "living standards". For the later, without very significant buy-in from the wider community, including their representatives in the IAB and the IESG,..., it would be a very bad idea. If that buy-in exists, the process shouldn't be the problem. Regards, Martin. From nobody Wed Nov 17 05:30:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361F53A0CEE for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZdLlaOkU3FXl for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 915CE3A0CEB for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id m9so3208591iop.0 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6LUMhkDdTla+z7csvE1+zvTM2ytQP+NMg3BW7fira2M=; b=A7ypCF2M+YOq/etbzWz020W8FYNxWdi0pXK8tJNE1hY7KawWAg+Cr7LCwHNSBsUuvt SjjTk+n5rhJo4oGUeGOpwmtdp0+yhy4JRMVBsPAhn1M6+o8xUaZAJTwTXiuid6xLKqJj em9lGP4iDkHO+TR6wt7phaurYXxDjVM1Kb5Mqat6lGtdZnWQIpf1CPq+ahS48WtssHnR 2XLrSMdhQjD74chS3g9E1schWXD6/6zvgZEb+NGLf27+HAYnzt+NizGYvSyhafH+U4Jn GC/08aAc9dEq7XH/N5rxBTgLDTKtdta7QIg8/Wp5e0v4rza4cUkJEkS81JirJBVldAKE qAYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6LUMhkDdTla+z7csvE1+zvTM2ytQP+NMg3BW7fira2M=; b=Pc4fTlnm7Hp+evn0xJv4GX1zfnPRAhy14mIsJ2fiJ45QiQm1DVQJnoeb1l4zhtziz+ OKR03WO589a5LdXomH+bn41G/hYsY5IdGk6/H4WQL8HlY1ETP/fkOdOytSsFshYz02L4 ud+oxbwznogdY+OfDIMpw8TieOftBjhw07DAqAoead71z9aRARAJLkhzCP4yBu45PeCz P4Shmr/BeDcxC5kzCvQk8DS8BSx/mehHjs6B9TJ9UrHOdH/gCvmoDVibsnjxLd14Pnu4 r7JnO6f/P2APcDHcPxcvDicxU6yOtCk0gjFgWtVD/XU7VCM9GOhUD2tmV7o3wQG1tNkU zgAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oTqk9ktt9UcbwNgf59Cx87u9/JXyBpNdigZY3ruTYUCQGO4cB PR37dLxZJ7txzqdpKKKzSTrHlYybBdYungv+71jZeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTpeSecyS6KZQ0GGhQOty9IcPNG8jpzW0UYX/PZTU71sTVQ6jYNkni5/M9UqLoV5KIAmyOm5V4fZOoeNl9i3k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:130f:: with SMTP id r15mr12905560jad.19.1637155842045; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:30:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000684d9405d0fc0c0e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:30:48 -0000 --000000000000684d9405d0fc0c0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:08 AM Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > Hello everybody, > > [inline, various places] > > On 2021-11-17 00:10, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with > > enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that. And > > she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. > > > > I try hard not to read into other people's statements. But I am left > > with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike's > > list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change. If > > so, would people please state them? > > It would indeed be good to have this. > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread > >> entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": > >>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would > >>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra > >>> (and broader) level of scrutiny. > >> > >> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. > >> > >> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain > lines. > >> > >> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if > >> someone wanted to: > >> * eliminate the IAB stream > >> * abolish April 1 RFCs > >> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) > >> * outlaw Security Considerations sections > >> * stop publishing affiliations for authors > >> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) > >> * some other controversial thing > > These are all good examples, even if they are (on purpose, I know) a bit > extreme. > > [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what > stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.] > > What I'm not sure is why terms such as "extraordinary process" or > "extremely hard to change" are used. If the changes are indeed what the > community wants, then it should be not too difficult to get the IESG, > the IAB, and the LLC Board (in the texts we have, we should make it > clear it's the Board, not just write LLC) to sign off on them. (I'm not > married to the specifics, it could be just two of these, or some other > combination > Be that as it may, Mike's document proposes a different process than for the RSWG documents in general. If it's not intended to be more difficult, then why not just have the regular process? -Ekr --000000000000684d9405d0fc0c0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:08 AM Marti= n J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoy= ama.ac.jp> wrote:
Hello everybody,

[inline, various places]

On 2021-11-17 00:10, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with <= br> > enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that.=C2= =A0 And
> she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out.
>
> I try hard not to read into other people's statements.=C2=A0 But I= am left
> with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike&= #39;s
> list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change.=C2= =A0 If
> so, would people please state them?

It would indeed be good to have this.

> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread <= br> >> entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal&q= uot;:
>>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would
>>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extr= a
>>> (and broader) level of scrutiny.
>>
>> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal.
>>
>> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain= lines.
>>
>> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if =
>> someone wanted to:
>> * eliminate the IAB stream
>> * abolish April 1 RFCs
>> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks)
>> * outlaw Security Considerations sections
>> * stop publishing affiliations for authors
>> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as)
>> * some other controversial thing

These are all good examples, even if they are (on purpose, I know) a bit extreme.

[The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.]

What I'm not sure is why=C2=A0terms=C2=A0such=C2=A0as "extraordina= ry process" or
"extremely hard to change" are used. If the changes are indeed wh= at the
community wants, then it should be not too difficult to get the IESG,
the IAB, and the LLC Board (in the texts we have, we should make it
clear it's the Board, not just write LLC) to sign off on them. (I'm= not
married to the specifics, it could be just two of these, or some other
combination

Be that as it may, Mike'= ;s document proposes a different process than
for the RSWG docume= nts in general. If it's not intended to be more
difficult, th= en why not just have the regular process?

-Ekr



--000000000000684d9405d0fc0c0e-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 05:49:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901213A0D46 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:49:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HstT26H48w5l for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95D853A0CF6 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 05:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AHDnHLn2737534 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:49:17 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637156957; bh=dKpAKbabIpAS/Kpg6MAzRscMLuhqYkSeERtD6VI4RDc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=BIuC2fZALmlQczIBu907O/LsajMVAiKFV/qnsmldGS/S+2/ok1jTw7ZnZlo49C65T o7LHUsX2muijSGQGQRxrzWzrcS6aYtxD1MCIErToQqMyLfG4tjNn2aiopv10jhYLtG yLITZw4RsqKgLhBIUInbP2akHlViYvGV3YAaHHZE= Message-ID: <1e3e3bec-8b67-57a9-ea16-ebb2cdc600f7@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:49:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------p5DTHdyt2tPgx4zdILK60V5g" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Interim meeting scheduled: Dec 2 21:00 GMT X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------p5DTHdyt2tPgx4zdILK60V5g Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------HtMGUmgkPK0txoGCA3f6fVHN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <1e3e3bec-8b67-57a9-ea16-ebb2cdc600f7@lear.ch> Subject: Interim meeting scheduled: Dec 2 21:00 GMT --------------HtMGUmgkPK0txoGCA3f6fVHN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------HvSt8u6dGmyZRpVXG404SuYu" --------------HvSt8u6dGmyZRpVXG404SuYu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------sA1GSEbnQ34iyD6leUcIckvf" --------------sA1GSEbnQ34iyD6leUcIckvf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBhbGwgZm9yIGRvb2RsaW5nLg0KDQpXZSBoYXZlIHNj aGVkdWxlZCBhbiBpbnRlcmltIGZvciBEZWNlbWJlciAybmQgYXQgMjE6MDAgR01ULg0KDQpU aGUgdGVudGF0aXZlIGFnZW5kYSBpcyB0byByZXNvbHZlICJQcmluY2lwbGVzIi7CoCBUaGUg Y2hhaXJzIHdpbGwgYmUgDQpkaXNjdXNzaW5nIGhvdyB0byBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgdGhpcyB0aW1l LCBhbmQgd2Ugd2lsbCBiZSBiYWNrIHRvIHlvdSB3aXRoIGEgDQpwcm9wb3NhbC4NCg0KVGhl IGNhcnJvdDogaWYgd2UgY2FuIHJlc29sdmUgdGhpcyBwcmlvciB0byB0aGUgMm5kLCB3ZSB3 aWxsIGNhbmNlbCB0aGUgDQptZWV0aW5nLsKgIEZvciB0aGlzIHRvIGhhcHBlbiwgaXQgaXMg YWJzb2x1dGVseSBjcml0aWNhbCB0aGF0IHBlb3BsZSB0byANCnVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIG5h dHVyZSBvZiB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZS7CoCBJIGVuY291cmFnZSBFVkVSWU9ORSB0byBzcGVh ayANCipESVJFQ1RMWSogdG8gcGVvcGxlIHdobyBob2xkIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwb2ludHMgb2Yg dmlldyB0byBmaW5kIGNvbW1vbiANCmdyb3VuZCBhbmQgcmVjb2duaXplIHdoYXQgaXMgcG9z c2libGUuwqAgWW91IG91Z2h0bid0IHdhaXQgZm9yIHRoaXMgDQppbnRlcmltIHRvIGRvIHNv Lg0KDQpJdCB3aWxsIGhlbHAgaWYgd2UgaGF2ZSBhICpjb21tb24qIHByb3Bvc2FsIHRoYXQg Y2FwdHVyZXMgdGhhdCBjb21tb24gDQpncm91bmQuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCk1lZXRpbmcgVVJM Og0KDQpodHRwczovL2Npc2NvLndlYmV4LmNvbS9jaXNjby9qLnBocD9NVElEPW03NjBkYWVi NDM1ZWViYjJhYjJiMDFiNzQ0MmIwMWIyOQ0KDQo= --------------sA1GSEbnQ34iyD6leUcIckvf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Everyone,

Thank you all for doodling.

We have scheduled an interim for December 2nd at 21:00 GMT.

The tentative agenda is to resolve "Principles".=C2=A0 The chairs = will be discussing how to structure this time, and we will be back to you with a proposal.

The carrot: if we can resolve this prior to the 2nd, we will cancel the meeting.=C2=A0 For this to happen, it is absolutely crit= ical that people to understand the nature of the difference.=C2=A0 I encourage EVERYONE to speak DIRECTLY to people who hold different points of view to find common ground and recognize what is possible.=C2=A0 You oughtn't wait for this interim to do so.

=

It will help if we have a common proposal that captures that common ground.

Eliot

Meeting URL:

https://cisco.webe= x.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm760daeb435eebb2ab2b01b7442b01b29

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-0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] RFC Editor Future Development (rfcefdp) PROGRAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-12-02 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:04:54 -0000 The RFC Editor Future Development (rfcefdp) Program will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-02 from 21:00 to 22:00 GMT (21:00 to 22:00 UTC). Agenda: The agenda will be discussed on the list, but the intent is to resolve differences over "principles, policies, and approvals". Meeting URL: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m760daeb435eebb2ab2b01b7442b01b29 Information about remote participation: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m760daeb435eebb2ab2b01b7442b01b29 From nobody Wed Nov 17 08:27:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE063A0DE7 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:27:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NtRGkw_ZjTu9 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3D493A0DDC for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id f18so11279854lfv.6 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qVuAFCGAh7aEYc1TfUA+J24XKFdKzlUWNOFxWabaSHQ=; b=tlnysaKSz2IBDCsTQOAZYcVpN80btI1SvjnzVdOyrWs5cRCpJ1QHb4dOK9VBZoLulh e/oUzdHmznSVNg/IuXSYzQpk11pqE5TjfSynnEinA9HdKLKO4lvjhTEQXIJCFNxaVMgQ 107ZrfpxnbhbTPdJHzUT3p1PIPRiOOpali3S/5mJVY46mbjwvj31Q6WlU1vnEGlcCv5G N7W9vdtK+Ttcl/nHaGGDhBN0tmXnW9Zo+Z+bdh4e8LGdfs2K5vVcTPoxS4HPAvX4kMZQ WhMxnEdx9hfVJxZo1oDcYtTLWv3h1W/8BXgdxq/xKtcYKowAj3vAgU4pHHjxjQObPU1x ZlGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qVuAFCGAh7aEYc1TfUA+J24XKFdKzlUWNOFxWabaSHQ=; b=VnzsSsBHtjmCPsJhfRcpDEwI77/gTF6r+GISGeBA4CGcoDLmbTlFhVHAEWzghyVceE gUlcI3QXPezq+QERplGP3aSKmeg1BXXnavXOJYYP7DUPNRrYP6p6vQKuChcK4shEIrq5 gshasVLP++s2i4oyy2A9heEUWwvEbV1rt4jVVFB3vwyVLgxtTKpJLPpypkamSEDhwC3V PMkbK3QQtEwBWi6JdwWgoaJz35ABkOYzFfdJreJCNlgzKwAdbv+f9d4yAw3tPY13S2/1 ElefOSBLuaytlVxmYTWs5UP1FDHefzJf3Z3wjPN11hNtehImJxOBNTQmRW8EZ04IfJGR 24Bg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532BQFPYKD02tY7vxBdNvXBLqzH3Yqa7962Wwzj9qxZwBfAd/c0Y 9075nAfymc+efRe99rC5xlrKhMKaBPRBVTg26p+BixXsVrLuNQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9MghmZYGe6wWNXlnKpBs/VIRbw2ptUkzF8g1yBgxIKwVDM4ZbDDaFRS3DIxz9soMeTL1+HzpjSGQIsvsaqoM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3c93:: with SMTP id h19mr16622321lfv.411.1637166467809; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:27:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c0911305d0fe8517" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:27:57 -0000 --000000000000c0911305d0fe8517 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi EKR - maybe before we get to your question, an answer to Joel=E2=80=99s = might be in order first? On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 08:30 Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:08 AM Martin J. D=C3=BCrst > wrote: > >> Hello everybody, >> >> [inline, various places] >> >> On 2021-11-17 00:10, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> > If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with >> > enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that. And >> > she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. >> > >> > I try hard not to read into other people's statements. But I am left >> > with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike'= s >> > list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change. I= f >> > so, would people please state them? >> >> It would indeed be good to have this. >> >> > Yours, >> > Joel >> > >> > On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread >> >> entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": >> >>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would >> >>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra >> >>> (and broader) level of scrutiny. >> >> >> >> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. >> >> >> >> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain >> lines. >> >> >> >> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if >> >> someone wanted to: >> >> * eliminate the IAB stream >> >> * abolish April 1 RFCs >> >> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) >> >> * outlaw Security Considerations sections >> >> * stop publishing affiliations for authors >> >> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) >> >> * some other controversial thing >> >> These are all good examples, even if they are (on purpose, I know) a bit >> extreme. >> >> [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what >> stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.] >> >> What I'm not sure is why terms such as "extraordinary process" or >> "extremely hard to change" are used. If the changes are indeed what the >> community wants, then it should be not too difficult to get the IESG, >> the IAB, and the LLC Board (in the texts we have, we should make it >> clear it's the Board, not just write LLC) to sign off on them. (I'm not >> married to the specifics, it could be just two of these, or some other >> combination >> > > Be that as it may, Mike's document proposes a different process than > for the RSWG documents in general. If it's not intended to be more > difficult, then why not just have the regular process? > > -Ekr > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000c0911305d0fe8517 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi EKR - maybe before we get to your question, an answer = to Joel=E2=80=99s might be in order first?

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 08:3= 0 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wr= ote:


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Nov= 17, 2021 at 2:08 AM Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
Hello everybody,

[inline, various places]

On 2021-11-17 00:10, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with <= br> > enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that.=C2= =A0 And
> she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out.
>
> I try hard not to read into other people's statements.=C2=A0 But I= am left
> with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike&= #39;s
> list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change.=C2= =A0 If
> so, would people please state them?

It would indeed be good to have this.

> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread <= br> >> entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal&q= uot;:
>>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would
>>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extr= a
>>> (and broader) level of scrutiny.
>>
>> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal.
>>
>> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain= lines.
>>
>> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if =
>> someone wanted to:
>> * eliminate the IAB stream
>> * abolish April 1 RFCs
>> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks)
>> * outlaw Security Considerations sections
>> * stop publishing affiliations for authors
>> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as)
>> * some other controversial thing

These are all good examples, even if they are (on purpose, I know) a bit extreme.

[The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.]

What I'm not sure is why=C2=A0terms=C2=A0such=C2=A0as "extraordina= ry process" or
"extremely hard to change" are used. If the changes are indeed wh= at the
community wants, then it should be not too difficult to get the IESG,
the IAB, and the LLC Board (in the texts we have, we should make it
clear it's the Board, not just write LLC) to sign off on them. (I'm= not
married to the specifics, it could be just two of these, or some other
combination

Be that as it may, Mike's document propose= s a different process than
for the RSWG documents in general. If = it's not intended to be more
difficult, then why not just hav= e the regular process?

-Ekr



--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000c0911305d0fe8517-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 08:50:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3D43A0E1A for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAe4SK_3N-m7 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32B393A0E15 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 1AHGWfU3017940; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:28 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=MYZlVRXFCthnotd6HLASHcEw1uBAbHzE1Q/GcGpEi5c=; b=lBwLhoI11K3OPeMsJ5GzlYs+H3EakBF0bJ1H7cOT4ts8UmHZm6t/WAvASo0E2CR1DFBv Txv+nFrc/wlLod2Nd0ccOyqYT8TX+Nef0fBHhEioCztnfQp5QMqCGeA49/EuV5lWpmve p51AGau0gggi5IxgE4RVNeePB3tGeiU/pQTfZRRA8egS0zmbzys49OGG/7DUjd3JbzfO kty2s804Ypbyq4QVrb+3oQ1MdhgErBvGCXlMX5p3OOGYntoAkWLurrsWOlBfYJfTWFN9 ycJI0V3RILggtQNWF+Tg+31jC6rAzODwSOG39dgwXa+xxxouhTdwyCfCljWi94kxQQB0 ag== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 3ccfykhkk1-20 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:28 -0800 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0R2Q00GED6RYSYD0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) id <0R2Q00N006RDLC00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:22 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 383089cabf680b5790cf454a268020d1 X-Va-E-CD: 2457ae65cec8351ba211c9e20a825248 X-Va-R-CD: d7c12f36eab440861c62febc780d258c X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 8611e383-7f43-46c3-914c-67037a670859 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 383089cabf680b5790cf454a268020d1 X-V-E-CD: 2457ae65cec8351ba211c9e20a825248 X-V-R-CD: d7c12f36eab440861c62febc780d258c X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: f99998b4-c77b-4036-b09a-cf9e45b93aa8 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-17_05:2021-11-17, 2021-11-17 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.234.81.193]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0R2Q003DW6RW0J00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:50:20 -0800 Cc: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-17_05:2021-11-17, 2021-11-17 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:50:34 -0000 > On Nov 16, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with = enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that. And = she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. >=20 > I try hard not to read into other people's statements. But I am left = with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike's = list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change. If = so, would people please state them? I=E2=80=99m not sure that there=E2=80=99s as much a desire to change = particular items, but rather confusion about why there needs to be = =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D principles that require an elevated process = beyond the RSWG process. Perhaps it would be helpful to ask the question the other way: what on = the enumerated list are people concerned about changing, so much that = even if the RSWG process decided to change it, it should have some = higher bar? If there is some time, in 20 years, in which the community = (via the RSWG) decides that for some reason it is indeed appropriate to = change something that falls into this list of principles, what is = insufficient about the process that has been defined already? I would suggest that if there are things people are very concerned about = changing, there is both the RSAB approval and an appeals process built = into the new model. If that is good enough for the concerns we can=E2=80=99= t anticipate now, then why do some of the concerns that people have = today in this group need to have a different process? Best, Tommy >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread = entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": >>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would >>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra >>> (and broader) level of scrutiny. >> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. >> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain = lines. >> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if = someone wanted to: >> * eliminate the IAB stream >> * abolish April 1 RFCs >> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) >> * outlaw Security Considerations sections >> * stop publishing affiliations for authors >> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) >> * some other controversial thing >> But I don't know if there is much, if anything, left for the RSWG to = do if we proscribe its remit so precisely. What subjects are both worth = the time and effort required to run the RSWG/RSAB process and RFC = publication, but do not directly address these principles? >> There are a few things perhaps, but even those are guided by = principles and might require amending them. Our choice to allow Unicode = under certain constraints required that we address a bunch of things = here: software, fonts, language, accessibility. It was perhaps = consistent with what Mike wrote, but would that be true for a proposal = written prior to RFC 799x work? >> I'm not sure that I agree with all of the principles Mike proposed, = but I certainly don't agree that we need a bigger process if we want to = revise them. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Wed Nov 17 09:06:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667453A07F1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:06:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HXZ4BYK3IbF8 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BB533A07F0 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HvTq118Vvz6G84P; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637168781; bh=r6sWz4gWQm0snOtBrPoabAcl0ASBXzk1Ntx26t1NGwU=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=RZcPeP0NgUdvGsOrL6bKGLPXmgwBVlvdvrhUeIxrzVOQvLKayoD25EWK3nZLPs4iq VetZfUjoEwy+NVZpXSC1WB07TbyLQo1D0FhvXNG5umXdnYz3/SW6X94Eq073htC+AX aijXUKNjeZc4Dqke+FHZdmYqgH6+1Uf8oFp5J6HY= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HvTq04dShz6G7pR; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:06:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:06:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Tommy Pauly Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct In-Reply-To: <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:06:28 -0000 First, as I read what we have agreed to: We have very tightly constrained both the RSAB refusal limits and the appeals process. Thus, as far as I can tell, those are almost irrelevant for keeping the RSWG from changing its core principles. For example, if the RSWG suddenly decided the series was not archival, that would do not short term harm to any stream. The harm would be to a much larger picture. But the RSAB would not have grounds to object. Then, my take on why we need a higher bar. I don't know if the other proponents see other (maybe stronger) reasons: Basically, as we have structured things, the presumption is that the RSWG is doing the right thing, and it would take significantly community objection to block something. That is what we seem to want, and for most things, I can live with that. For changing the basic principles, the bar it seems to me needs to be on the other side. The RSWG needs to make the case to the IAB and IESG that there is a good reason for making the change. And, I hope, the community has to agree. Otherwise, any time the RSWG gets to discussing any interesting change (and I presume it will) we will immediately regress to arguing about the unresolved issue of principles. And it will get resolved based on who has more staying power in the RSWG. Really? Yours, Joel On 11/17/2021 11:50 AM, Tommy Pauly wrote: > > >> On Nov 16, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> If there was not a lot more to do, we would not have had an RSE with enough authority that other folks became uncomfortable with that. And she did not do anything to cross any of the lines Mike laid out. >> >> I try hard not to read into other people's statements. But I am left with the impression that there must be some set of principles in Mike's list that a number of folks here really want the ability to change. If so, would people please state them? > > I’m not sure that there’s as much a desire to change particular items, but rather confusion about why there needs to be “special” principles that require an elevated process beyond the RSWG process. > > Perhaps it would be helpful to ask the question the other way: what on the enumerated list are people concerned about changing, so much that even if the RSWG process decided to change it, it should have some higher bar? If there is some time, in 20 years, in which the community (via the RSWG) decides that for some reason it is indeed appropriate to change something that falls into this list of principles, what is insufficient about the process that has been defined already? > > I would suggest that if there are things people are very concerned about changing, there is both the RSAB approval and an appeals process built into the new model. If that is good enough for the concerns we can’t anticipate now, then why do some of the concerns that people have today in this group need to have a different process? > > Best, > Tommy > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/16/2021 2:07 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, at 12:26, John C Klensin wrote in a thread entitled "Re: [Rfced-future] Principles / policies proposal": >>>> [...] I want to identify proposals that would >>>> represent significant changes of direction and require an extra >>>> (and broader) level of scrutiny. >>> This gets to the crux of my opposition to this proposal. >>> Mike proposed an elevated process for changes that crossed certain lines. >>> Maybe it seems reasonable to invoke some extraordinary process if someone wanted to: >>> * eliminate the IAB stream >>> * abolish April 1 RFCs >>> * stop publishing YANG in RFCs (back to MIBs folks) >>> * outlaw Security Considerations sections >>> * stop publishing affiliations for authors >>> * publish in Maori rather than English (or even as well as) >>> * some other controversial thing >>> But I don't know if there is much, if anything, left for the RSWG to do if we proscribe its remit so precisely. What subjects are both worth the time and effort required to run the RSWG/RSAB process and RFC publication, but do not directly address these principles? >>> There are a few things perhaps, but even those are guided by principles and might require amending them. Our choice to allow Unicode under certain constraints required that we address a bunch of things here: software, fonts, language, accessibility. It was perhaps consistent with what Mike wrote, but would that be true for a proposal written prior to RFC 799x work? >>> I'm not sure that I agree with all of the principles Mike proposed, but I certainly don't agree that we need a bigger process if we want to revise them. >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > From nobody Wed Nov 17 09:28:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1024C3A0832 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ztLTdPn17HfL for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B42223A0825 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id c3so4227720iob.6 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eBECHXrNFaqcwZ5E5gOnZbF2Hmh/yVeEG+l19uob7EY=; b=51vEltTTgIbwOhNeGQj0YZa0AjkU9sF+Gojn4+MqHxV+8H0RNop0shhvTgEJ2pj26L lwTBq4J/4O6LcAyd55TbWRrw0wgd8lmqEY3lA0Sjt8tRRhVYjv1fMUlrDQp6VDRnwRpf GWu++9pqyIx8Q+mcqodlTVui38UoWylhgj/5mpO1EdHcMHztXkYf37QgAXpT1SdpCG3I 1/qca31FuqsFtrhOUYug3HxWEYKSHHXC+7wUrjGvj2PVtTbj/LHs6yYaZH0jgjeRnblU Cww4gU5KNzVrFkWancCLPEUjovOnqlg++A1FJXy0NX1PjIQqdjSoiX69P/2c2m9liKxP 8fjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eBECHXrNFaqcwZ5E5gOnZbF2Hmh/yVeEG+l19uob7EY=; b=ih4x6SmHHTAJl0FO5PjU9GDEm1mvt9wWQTKESWeFQ2RpJHMJRYqk/5dnVFhklywAJG LvtuoXwpwe2kXmJZJ3xFyVBbPnyLEqseLZCE+bCTbCmxRQaasbb8+qTKkDnjzI4HZW6e 1YceKMi4BXvufqFw3+7VFZD2NZHMlobLhc1gYL54bkgm+F7B2WEq6YsRR721egsezEeg gf/RkQL3f4olkE8eKTRQDthyilaw1ZrvwRLy/8M+aMaWTADghfHNNtF8Mq7XYl2hJhSG TDoATv4FHZvsuXWVlAY78AAQbaX0oRF3ZE2x4+lvy/s1HNm32sO6Y4bXjYyZnndRraRZ qWvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531klRRs9LGjSD2zr11Q0VBD1k7mErpiHfSb2MCk6qBkzg76AE2s n660DeTbxW4cTfwO5ejTfSpAdXVYmsvCA4QvTidn7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZjUa8TqG3+GM7IKN6aCOrNyHPT4RciRNz7dGQrz7zQ8dE2yi2blIVSuNtYCXOKIwCmbMP2yYxnpfibrltqdw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:168e:: with SMTP id s14mr12519410iow.50.1637170080716; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:27:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: Tommy Pauly , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019323a05d0ff5d68" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:28:07 -0000 --00000000000019323a05d0ff5d68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 9:06 AM Joel Halpern Direct < jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > First, as I read what we have agreed to: > We have very tightly constrained both the RSAB refusal limits and the > appeals process. Thus, as far as I can tell, those are almost > irrelevant for keeping the RSWG from changing its core principles. For > example, if the RSWG suddenly decided the series was not archival, that > would do not short term harm to any stream. The harm would be to a much > larger picture. But the RSAB would not have grounds to object. > I'm surprised to hear you say that. S 3.2.2. lists two reasons why an RSAB member can file a concern: o The proposal represents a serious problem for the group a particular member represents. o The member believes that the proposal would cause serious harm to the overall series, including harm to the long term health and viability of the series. https://intarchboard.github.io/program-rfced-future/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.html#section-3.2.2 I would generally think this would give the RSAB plenty of room to object to a change in this area. With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particularly informative here, as it seems to mean different things to different people. It might be useful for people who think there is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the operational implications of "archival" are. -Ekr --00000000000019323a05d0ff5d68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 9:06 AM Joel = Halpern Direct <jmh.direct= @joelhalpern.com> wrote:
First, as I read what we have agreed to:
We have very tightly constrained both the RSAB refusal limits and the
appeals process.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thus, as far as I can tell, those are almost <= br> irrelevant for keeping the RSWG from changing its core principles.=C2=A0 Fo= r
example, if the RSWG suddenly decided the series was not archival, that would do not short term harm to any stream.=C2=A0 The harm would be to a mu= ch
larger picture.=C2=A0 But the RSAB would not have grounds to object.

I'm surprised to hear you say that. S 3.2= .2. lists two reasons why an RSAB
member can file a concern:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 o =C2=A0The proposal represents a serious= problem for the group a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular member represen= ts.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0The member believes that the proposal would= cause serious harm to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the overall series, includin= g harm to the long term health and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 viability of the= series.


I would generally think= this would give the RSAB plenty of room to object to
a change in= this area.

With that said, I don't find the t= erm "archival" particularly informative here, as it seems to
mean different things to different people. It might be useful for peo= ple who think there
is an important principle here to try map out= in more detail what the operational implications
of "archiv= al" are.

-Ekr
--00000000000019323a05d0ff5d68-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 09:29:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948D33A0D12 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:29:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I19_ad2qjmEK for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E2C3A0825 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id h2so3542012ili.11 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:29:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sHV9jHTp1rCXnZ/TG3FmyyYf1mH0q389f/3FzquGJhQ=; b=Oc/Ak1U6tJQwq3CNYTrHxcpQMBeXvrozoh7AKKeyFOfSh5lPpwAKVcKVav3mSBjmKS 5J5BStnV0StRMfF7oEpv3nLTKSx+aEWRr9ous8V7BMxd1Y0fKHad+gUH12jX6vDdtF4s CR9YtaxKlPinwNAVP9c1pziC7sPvbdZpq6wAc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sHV9jHTp1rCXnZ/TG3FmyyYf1mH0q389f/3FzquGJhQ=; b=VKhBmKao2IZFnJnQ8cDBDNOGjutFp7mV/zxWqh4wRwhILbGQhQ3dGIc0zSk7Lh8hzx l0om34pzpWtKZ5STC7AlQK1ZW7JX/oS1XCugBiDXk+FLQpchjT1PieUIpf2mcm/aapG/ 0GVcej8sOwdZh3koPLIJl1Cq0TEJ9gRQcDCys9OW2VZhRnwdhkkqnFieBNBph/lXbHKh rSwSe4puMT4WXUtAk0lyAAQrUI+pSXeImH8h0i1Yi/JTc5mdFBdfqCCXQzyHl/1W42nQ fuVMjq9w4H+/cqMTr/nArKeqEDTFzBZJ/QSRO/Ye/QycLy+gk+yGVXBIXbb0ZzmK3muw JlzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533uDAj4BhdzIymIrsNDSRs1nTznAt5iGN/AtbjsAWUfffe4D6rl zS5UmV5lPcyoexFnvNp56Qzf0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJSCIH40pU6gOKWjUyLCDuxUmGQJzKts27gKhyhExDBQsTdSY1qzjHv2ZNR+3jmwYFILTsqg== X-Received: by 2002:a92:d24e:: with SMTP id v14mr3201687ilg.55.1637170141643; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x5sm244739iov.50.2021.11.17.09.28.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:28:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3703f8b7-80b6-8baa-6404-0d069d054510@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:28:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Brian Rosen Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <163715789378.10337.832161129514195925@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <163715789378.10337.832161129514195925@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] RFC Editor Future Development (rfcefdp) PROGRAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-12-02 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:29:10 -0000 Planning ahead, I've created a notes doc here: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-rfcefdp-interim-20211202# On 11/17/21 7:04 AM, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: > The RFC Editor Future Development (rfcefdp) Program will hold > a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-02 from 21:00 to 22:00 GMT (21:00 to 22:00 UTC). > > Agenda: > The agenda will be discussed on the list, but the intent is to resolve differences over "principles, policies, and approvals". > > Meeting URL: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m760daeb435eebb2ab2b01b7442b01b29 > > Information about remote participation: > https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m760daeb435eebb2ab2b01b7442b01b29 > From nobody Wed Nov 17 12:15:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5573A041C for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehjSLJhZHFaM for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE7613A0418 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 12:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnRLH-000DAT-W4; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:15:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:15:34 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 20:15:54 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 12:06 -0500 Joel Halpern Direct wrote: > First, as I read what we have agreed to: > We have very tightly constrained both the RSAB refusal limits > and the appeals process. Thus, as far as I can tell, those > are almost irrelevant for keeping the RSWG from changing its > core principles. For example, if the RSWG suddenly decided > the series was not archival, that would do not short term harm > to any stream. The harm would be to a much larger picture. > But the RSAB would not have grounds to object. >=20 > Then, my take on why we need a higher bar. I don't know if > the other proponents see other (maybe stronger) reasons: >=20 > Basically, as we have structured things, the presumption is > that the RSWG is doing the right thing, and it would take > significantly community objection to block something. That is > what we seem to want, and for most things, I can live with > that. >=20 > For changing the basic principles, the bar it seems to me > needs to be on the other side. The RSWG needs to make the > case to the IAB and IESG that there is a good reason for > making the change. And, I hope, the community has to agree. >=20 > Otherwise, any time the RSWG gets to discussing any > interesting change (and I presume it will) we will immediately > regress to arguing about the unresolved issue of principles. > And it will get resolved based on who has more staying power > in the RSWG. Really? Slightly different take on this... While I agree with Joel, I look at this as some potential changes ought to have a higher approval bar than others because their impact is likely to be much broader, to have greater impact, and/or to harder to reverse [1]. For me at least, Martin D=C3=BCrst's examples were helpful in defining way to think about the boundary. Analogies to someone driving but making adjustments to the route versus making a change to a completely different destination come to mind as well. If we can agree that some possible decisions are different from other (not sure we are there yet), then there is an almost-separate question of how that higher approval bar should be handled. =20 To me, that is also one of the reasons to make the distinction. As we discussed early in the life of the Program (and before it was created), the users and audience for the RFC Series include groups who will never be very well represented on the RSWG or RSAB. A circular way of defining what is really a principle is that it is something for which a change would have a significant impact on some of those groups rather than just being something we can work with (or around) in the IETF community. Ideally, the approval process for changes that type of principle ought to include those groups, but we have never been able to define a good way to reach them and determine consensus. Would pulling in the full IAB, IESG, and LLC Board --all of whom have greater or lesser degrees of responsibility to the broader Internet community-- be a good surrogate for involving those other groups? IMO, not very, but maybe good enough. Would creating a mailing list that we promise to not use except for prospective changes in principles and then trying to get some significant libraries, organizations with liaisons with the IETF, academics who have interest in our work but don't participate, and maybe industry groups who are dependent on RFCs be enough? Maybe. =20 For me, the issue is now whether, e.g., the RSAG has enough levers with which to object or ways of doing so (separate question) but whether, if we are going to make an extraordinary change, there is an opportunity for input by the widest possible community. That said, let me make a suggestion. If we can agree that there are such things as principles for the Series, changes to which are to be treated as extraordinary, perhaps we can leave the question of the procedure for reviewing and approving such changes to the RSWG. That would need to be subject to three constraints: (1) That whatever they agree on has to be have reasonable odds of getting wider review, (2) that it be a superset of the "normal" procedure, and (3) that they not be able to change the extraordinary review process while they are considering or about to consider a change to a principle (or principle-level policy). john [1] Turning that into an argument about what to call those topic and where the boundary lies between principles and policies does not seem productive to me, YMMD. From nobody Wed Nov 17 13:49:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38303A07A2 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BRxGlsH20-m for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D7DC3A079E for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id np3so3396215pjb.4 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RmFCh1Zi05cyE/8vdIrHaS09J458GWifDZBQgzKspss=; b=g299sy9vlGuF9HIn5OYRsDjXgb0/YkjUiuzNEdc1PDPCK74r8io/YedH0zG7imH5Ie ymglDngehEdJcx6YnBcgYrEE/fB4o+sTOsgnUMxOS/Fa3IWr+qluTtS4M/kb1OYH6xK1 NRTr3CQuGvmfA/fKhKJpExYdtHNO648tRi6S/cYA8JQ+IeMM/588NoxIDlF7zSrmTK03 ab5n62N3tqm6NEXM+wA+oTNQQPsHBS7u/G94kD2wzJN2rSVD491Hr9PokuVrQFKvRJS7 9zDs7bpJI8fHx6y8q7fCg+DARQpwlz1pkt5B1F8ZtkeolGsehONYSDafZHnLkoGjuKcF WZoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RmFCh1Zi05cyE/8vdIrHaS09J458GWifDZBQgzKspss=; b=GWTGQXrDb67v1u2a0iJCKKAkHY9Sv5Hfwta1vtKRtyLbM6vpDnA3+mZYJQgaBmYlDZ IAg3T3k9LICUxsipetOhttah/XvUK8olpQT31EhmDK51kvAcxjdd3u/+y0Lljx2JsxkV 8RkGU/hHlseXb+b4Q02ScbLrwJbI4aC1QI/HFiWPQTHMqUoGG+i0ItbxkY0r4dkjiJDv 7bmwB9W/CmeBgpU3nUmzNdN1doFmX9AEO6l7x6rFj1a7WT1le71B/LSGUXmNRtskAK0t /+7JP50oztXoDQDttFJ+C4d5iVHCTSdc2iNqwMQLEJu7rgiMJiUl72X5PO7S2K48OokY w1kQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CVs4P0TgscKpoGoDs82tzkmujqXOpqPKzNLojoptfQs6abxQo czbxspOg5EPdE2gQh6X2fnznLE2hq04DQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/z2r8/Iisq4PxXsFCVJjWzc61D0PGF3+jrBA32RlBr4PISwbwhoD8lvpOOBEThvsrDBZhJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c297:: with SMTP id f23mr3680235pjt.138.1637185780914; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g7sm559927pfv.159.2021.11.17.13.49.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:49:40 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:49:36 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:49:48 -0000 On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the following: >=20 > On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> Hello Eric, others, >> >> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to my >> comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do that). >> >> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >>> S 3.1.2. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IETF=20 stream, an IESG member >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or a member of the community se= lected by the IESG >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IAB = stream, an IAB member or >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a member of the community selec= ted by the IAB >>> >>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That >>> seems to be what it says. >> >> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think wha= t >> we wanted was something close to >> >> =C2=A0*=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IETF stream, pref= erably >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the comm= unity selected >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the IESG >> >> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or >> decide it's not what we meant. >=20 > I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not what we > meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we should > reconsider this. >=20 > First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection could be > very quick, no need to call for volunteers. >=20 > Second, this could express our understanding that this job is not like > some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in a while= , > but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially independent= > and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job is to > stay in close contact with the assigning group or board. I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. >=20 > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine > currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does this > apply to the RSCE?=20 See https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.= html#name-introduction: "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a liaison member = to the IAB. This does not change." Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the RSCE or RPC s= taff)? If so, it's part of the review of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charte= r. > What about liaison to the IESG? Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need updating since it a= lready says "The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies they represent. At the time of this writing, the liaisons present represent the following bodies: The RFC Editor ..." Regards Brian From nobody Wed Nov 17 13:59:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB993A07B3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:59:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0w8ZKAzDW7-k for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C24543A07B1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id bu18so15648276lfb.0 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:59:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DewV/fR1K6BDn4kyYwK9qPzVmxqXLyshodsj2p2xx28=; b=iOjtY5/mR1ssM4ica6yrqPbSpMoT2Dvaxnlpasxs1G5UdATWTB/G4MZ2N1ZPl0WjrV 5Ubc8b7BM/Dp0uk+r4Tc6DgvsDLKUw4F/QKwUHa712Xk7V+VSLokRbzEMaJSGJXDaqc2 pf95qn9p8PZP39Bln0Prn3rP2d7fhkgXZjzR4cNdjufpqSyJxu6UldvKXRaCtOlNx2a6 IT0cSl1aEEzJ2prgj1g1FpDGmvQco59PimZuqqzyWP4Fwe7AnszPzLU2jHzd1bCSpwKW yL5oBsQAathl35z5lz6k/Kd1DBqWVl/8xC82uHjrBcy2LsPKtrzWw/6PVjSgfGOv6j3o Xj1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DewV/fR1K6BDn4kyYwK9qPzVmxqXLyshodsj2p2xx28=; b=txzoM++Z7n0m4FKqigMKg/MuZwAacL2zVpNltkQT2thJudAUmZHDDpIOV1xluuh2PL Xg0Nd1eZAopLWFZLi6AGXrmu2RiX+yw6gGL0ZbCHsN05Sld+cAMXtV83VNSp/LsCJT6L QuNGXgDwoybIJLNxLsP/s7Yp4pxDivV+5L1+bpNSpxeUZMIU/Y983qmxemyYLu43AUl1 ehoqFx1CLoM6+tPxtDPQRrwAPo6hqhhuApLwfTXZB5PDqNdS/bOrOqBjKGrOnhvbFPb6 WMV9o3gwxWZ3JCh327oxrHZ/215MRk1RsLcbcf1TdB1Zs+CmidxVviQTKvqAF2nGOtSS kgNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tmmQnVSwSmRP0evGKWbE52oqKESPCYwhqZi57XyNoZGd3F50Z nCwi0ezStnJJwp0pgdaAcxsm9Pr9Zek0AiNYzFU+sQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwyZDuUnmucz+TuVRxcr3LPG480WYbkLBCn7pB/VPMyiaU5GSU/iybcMdnmGOg7V5S3dbRazkIybtOm39wV7Zk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1696:: with SMTP id bd22mr11328982ljb.57.1637186343146; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:59:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:58:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a270b05d10326fc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:59:11 -0000 --0000000000006a270b05d10326fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So you=E2=80=99re saying that Rfc editor should be read as Rfc series consu= lting editor going forward? That=E2=80=99s not my understanding. Mike On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the following: > > > > On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > >> Hello Eric, others, > >> > >> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to my > >> comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do that). > >> > >> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > >>> S 3.1.2. > >>> > >>> * As the stream representative for the IETF > stream, an IESG member > >>> or a member of the community selected by the IESG > >>> > >>> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB membe= r > or > >>> a member of the community selected by the IAB > >>> > >>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? That > >>> seems to be what it says. > >> > >> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think wha= t > >> we wanted was something close to > >> > >> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably > >> an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the community selected > >> by the IESG > >> > >> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or > >> decide it's not what we meant. > > > > I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not what we > > meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we should > > reconsider this. > > > > First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection could be > > very quick, no need to call for volunteers. > > > > Second, this could express our understanding that this job is not like > > some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in a while= , > > but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially independent > > and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job is to > > stay in close contact with the assigning group or board. > > I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. > > > > > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine > > currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does this > > apply to the RSCE? > > See > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.html= #name-introduction > : > > "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a liaison member > to the IAB. This does not change." > > Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the RSCE or RPC > staff)? If so, it's part of the review of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-chart= er. > > > What about liaison to the IESG? > > Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need updating since it > already says > > "The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies they > represent. At the time of this writing, the liaisons present > represent the following bodies: > > The RFC Editor > ..." > > Regards > Brian > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000006a270b05d10326fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So you=E2=80=99re saying that Rfc editor should be read a= s Rfc series consulting editor going forward?=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not my u= nderstanding. =C2=A0

Mik= e

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BC= rst wrote:
> I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the following= :
>
> On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
>> Hello Eric, others,
>>
>> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to= my
>> comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do tha= t).
>>
>> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>>> S 3.1.2.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative = for the IETF
stream, an IESG member
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or a member of the = community selected by the IESG
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative = for the IAB stream, an IAB member or
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a member of the com= munity selected by the IAB
>>>
>>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the = IAB"? That
>>> seems to be what it says.
>>
>> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think= what
>> we wanted was something close to
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0*=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the IET= F stream, preferably
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an IESG member, or otherwise a memb= er of the community selected
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the IESG
>>
>> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, o= r
>> decide it's not what we meant.
>
> I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not= what we
> meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we sho= uld
> reconsider this.
>
> First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection = could be
> very quick, no need to call for volunteers.
>
> Second, this could express our understanding that this job is not like=
> some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in a whil= e,
> but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially independen= t
> and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job is = to
> stay in close contact with the assigning group or board.

I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this.

>
> This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine
> currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does this=
> apply to the RSCE?

See https= ://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.html#name-i= ntroduction:

"Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a liaison memb= er to the IAB. This does not change."

Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the RSCE or RPC= staff)? If so, it's part of the review of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-ch= arter.

> What about liaison to the IESG?

Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need updating since it= already says

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies t= hey
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 represent.=C2=A0 At the time of this writing, the liaisons pr= esent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 represent the following bodies:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RFC Editor
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ..."

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian


--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--0000000000006a270b05d10326fc-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 14:08:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639663A07BE for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ubELN81-owAd for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0C003A07BC for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id nh10-20020a17090b364a00b001a69adad5ebso3800970pjb.2 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=S5XraGwFx9HqsqExeXT/TwP9cdjADqGG7SDrErBWYxc=; b=M4ix5jLSX9NoLPUDUxjAtPOUzJubr9AW3kzCqvDpU/EHDE7opN3JgPctlMUxTXdV2f ukPy2+Tmf67kTSTLrEzjDdAq4Jm0DZ25BlkBt2z0e1yLXMeov6vuwoiQiRXEDOI/tHeV 48CW77x1/eheyAmpElNhLLQjHD0VyIKtqQOJwzdfXPWU/BmMfPS7pAfO0pzrPms7C3zq ddvOmSjEsPZZCvePmKjfNW4Chz8LoGoWxcCEFo6oKpqOx7/fRY0NIuZn0eh2moHr5gPA 8om/7jIAdEE4c6pfY55hG7a95HjZyiHyV24su8VLri9d154BcLHQYR/9Fa4vdq8OnIBF ntgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=S5XraGwFx9HqsqExeXT/TwP9cdjADqGG7SDrErBWYxc=; b=S6GNOT/gqmU/8jP3Dmft/fIwR3GVQL5FNPwyeEEzVN39xtstm4tilF+jm/8KocwXcy AxcJMdAvPIB7c7XtJmb2ZDUHnz8cBq38RnTc8LmQo5tF2UzDezSBRakODmmiZIvwyiCe 1Xgy4crfNaWGVH/7FSElL++SK15hJklS0fGgVzXA7tcsHHDoWZyKoZljqXiMajSiVLol mLj3cvcPIZs/PHdRifVvS3hzueEXAVQTJCUUhlP6inMAdBj4bufz4uKpn8cMxHYal7n4 bVCVo2klL23VkiDcvZByfkYDCEo1m38WbETPBEiY5pvcUyehUFUhqdoOIF1LI508H9mL izaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310GXHQoCeLkNJuDF3HNmPsw5orT6WJQQLntC8joHvDIHeUQRSi LNn7QVhPlJh6QjIzMjoYOQoQ+yN6u34guw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJza80CdmIwy8RgSI8kGlPBZJ8BpG0P0lxi36o+gMsn0XbPTxJGwMTy7J8Fo38Espj8YrVk9Gg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:41cb:b0:142:62a:4d86 with SMTP id u11-20020a17090341cb00b00142062a4d86mr60282602ple.43.1637186904099; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ms15sm565949pjb.26.2021.11.17.14.08.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:08:23 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:08:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:08:29 -0000 Eric, On 18-Nov-21 06:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particularly informative here, as it seems to > mean different things to different people. It might be useful for people who think there > is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the operational implications > of "archival" are. Exactly. As a principle, it's a buzzword. To make it meaningful needs expertise that is largely going to come from the RSCE and the experienced members of the RPC. Let's take the thought experiment a bit further. Let's assume that [miracle needed here] the IETF decides to remove one of the major bugs in its standards process in such a way, for example, that the IPv6 standard defined in RFC1883.0 would have been updated as RFC1883.1 and RFC1883.2 (instead of RFC2460 and RFC8200), and therefore requests the RSWG to define a policy allowing such renumbering to be applied. Does that breach the principle that the RFC series is "archival"? Is it seriously likely that the RSWG will say "no, that's fine" without a discussion that involves the IESG and IAB anyway? Brian From nobody Wed Nov 17 14:20:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF233A07E5 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KN3SRQcGrIVB for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DAA83A07E3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id o14so3441438plg.5 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LGY0i2yRqp7a7+5oD+WEttWlot1iMp/yDdTwguGAuUg=; b=i6hv4EQzuf1PGILAQvwlflJm+qi2In/lvpolEeF6rTJMPptgIe1wodqvNXRpuJoEU1 IjnlM50XT6k4r+E2csIaImLIpHjR7tH37VcZNiwd6EIIVQlHukHhIwGoXjk08FMmz0Xn bxPzxTeK1YVTbrpRTedAKL+bq/u7pe17vcwyHlFL6k/M49PtXFb2AWWqMfzKBU2TgpJL I1WLQqsdPECxJA860n9JrqW+neqnL97ZNl1rHabyvxKzIPkigCkpHc9QEovQCBkdBWjh TWlxDwwcUDe3kpNRwcLLqF2x6unpoc/vzDL8rgA8HrlP2nMBVt7W+JB2cjP6RhIoerbr TpJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LGY0i2yRqp7a7+5oD+WEttWlot1iMp/yDdTwguGAuUg=; b=qoReJpQ1DOK+0/uxrESHw4xPUP24W+35dOvADemMEw9xm1SVbo1RPb6zDNyfzwATir PLvAUznMXoMnUw+IEUIyyR8y9kILOUVPBRmkFncYlRIP/RtT9RUZDM2WTxzEgm3vEc17 RqaahJx4EBJoxv8QiSPa+m7lqajyIOxRDr3m8TWYbjOqpnKhLtkBvmYdlkBhJGvh3Z5Q SOKC6HHuogfwoH7rQVMIcuNjzm6glOnRzzcp3NYMudUXSCantmgKEV/4PJucJYlM8/Vh +kGpur2fi1GR7tuvLhBs3baExByc/guOX4jkmcchi8vDn8rG1+GYX/26F5QY4pSoWQOf 3WQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ggciFHstYnPNTWb4144AhMvjPDlL27Y+vhDKmJTeqoEtgcBCc l/QeyaRsIFWQJmOAWYJB/NMP6cBohA8RPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9eNb4SXBBPgbintEDM9WZUUgMZwPM1i61VpOCl9zmREguxYwUOe5WSDdT0FqkiDTu0UOwMQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7c02:b0:143:9d6a:8e42 with SMTP id x2-20020a1709027c0200b001439d6a8e42mr59005624pll.80.1637187626111; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l12sm590824pfu.100.2021.11.17.14.20.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:20:25 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "Joel M. Halpern" , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:20:20 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] April 1st detail [What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:20:28 -0000 Martin, On 17-Nov-21 23:08, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: =2E.. > [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what > stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.] They are part of the Independent Stream, so it's a matter of stream polic= y, not an RSWG matter. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 17 14:21:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0C13A07E6 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uz7LN5Dz5Eb9 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF25D3A07CD for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnTIk-000DMI-Ti; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:05 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: "StJohns, Michael" , Brian E Carpenter cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:21:20 -0000 Brian, I probably agree with Mike. With the new changes in positions and titles, it is not at all clear what the "RFC Editor appoints..." means. It may actually make a difference whether the appointment is made by the RPC or the RSCE, especially because the latter (no longer as compared to the RSE) has any direct authority over the RPC. This is not hard to fix now and, IMO, worth it if we don't want to invite issues in the future that we would have no mechanism to resolve [1]. Let's say "RSCE" if we mean that and, if the ambiguity is intentional, use "RFC Editor Function" to make that clear. john [1] Other than either the IAB deciding who should be the liaison/ representative or the LLC and/or ExecDir stepping in and saying "you both work for me and I've decided". I hope we are in agreement that neither would be a good position to put anyone in. --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 16:58 -0500 "StJohns, Michael" wrote: > So you're saying that Rfc editor should be read as Rfc > series consulting editor going forward? That's not my > understanding. >=20 > Mike >=20 > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 >> On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> > I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the >> > following: >> >=20 >> > On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >> >> Hello Eric, others, >> >>=20 >> >> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text >> >> unrelated to my comments cut out (I wish more people would >> >> take the time to do that). >> >>=20 >> >> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >=20 >> >>> S 3.1.2. >> >>>=20 >> >>> * As the stream representative for the IETF >> stream, an IESG member >> >>> or a member of the community selected by the IESG >> >>>=20 >> >>> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, >> >>> an IAB member >> or >> >>> a member of the community selected by the IAB >> >>>=20 >> >>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the >> >>> IAB"? That seems to be what it says. >> >>=20 >> >> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. >> >> I think what we wanted was something close to >> >>=20 >> >> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, >> >> preferably an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the >> >> community selected by the IESG >> >>=20 >> >> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that >> >> explicit, or decide it's not what we meant. >> >=20 >> > I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's >> > not what we meant". However, I think there are two reasons >> > why I think we should reconsider this. >> >=20 >> > First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection >> > could be very quick, no need to call for volunteers. >> >=20 >> > Second, this could express our understanding that this job >> > is not like some of the others that in particular the IAB >> > hands out once in a while, but where (in my understanding) >> > the assignee is essentially independent and doesn't report >> > back, but it is an assignment where the job is to stay in >> > close contact with the assigning group or board. >>=20 >> I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. >>=20 >> >=20 >> > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John >> > Levine currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was >> > the case, does this apply to the RSCE? >>=20 >> See >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-cha >> rter-03.html#name-introduction : >>=20 >> "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a >> liaison member to the IAB. This does not change." >>=20 >> Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the >> RSCE or RPC staff)? If so, it's part of the review of >> draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter. >>=20 >> > What about liaison to the IESG? >>=20 >> Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need >> updating since it already says >>=20 >> "The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies >> they represent. At the time of this writing, the liaisons >> present represent the following bodies: >>=20 >> The RFC Editor >> ..." >>=20 >> Regards >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>=20 From nobody Wed Nov 17 14:25:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9514A3A07E8 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3wBItxZxutgl for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 138053A07E7 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id g19so3971479pfb.8 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9TpbbxXAa9U5tcn/jVDGrMNbuGktIlxoXgkGhwMCn4E=; b=KGpjlJL2LG3wS3IQGXvMdtD57kxnGv7AlhwIoIoDCAmLZxnSGAQsTRTfBjnZ889ueH 7D1cTgXkW5l1bgmNKR+9kcMZdl/UixRsMp6Jfigge3SHcA8atRFxujhT+va3m3t8BBS6 8L2BSKmPt5PZaa+Ep1rctKQ/BYw+2g8r44LNxb290WzveBxbgQWeW2nIuD0WsAI9Le/8 loNA+oxIJ6QBNDE+eiuSmHQueSsaCojtuaNh+nbxH96hKKaDPuWZsM3ceJeROvUFMqs5 B+7/fIQemD+M9PhUwssy8Dj50ul6HSkASypHq4ZmE9AcUiKnp5pbOMUY7FLMBsLCsb2j L/mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9TpbbxXAa9U5tcn/jVDGrMNbuGktIlxoXgkGhwMCn4E=; b=PwYWiRGHZFZnXOeY5WkGAVU8FaYgyQrBISmisQ6T2zBym9dqNGGNrtLI8R73o33n5X stYRhzD1QnMyuQqGGr3kdYulIIIIXDTzRYNBWI7e3iBX2yPoQ06KDB+9GOP9RPpqVWND BLBOAQ8PZCWWS6eEzxdZdn663zWymCaHVnTCYd6cB+YX3y00kVM8btoz39VB5x+ojqVO PGu/62lUO7qTt7O6gYbfb4L9xcNUJ1S3Fnzw/pK+fgq6Rb4szDHDvm4bgAY7czCRQ17h 1Yd7VE6MAjTDMyftfyIJQTpWNIk8a2N0fzwNwDgb2MwOn5X76ihB3E5pI/CHPe52eDS3 o6iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533o1o/koA1ZR7C0xj6zHLfYexBpp9knIaDr00NxwOABM994aYrm BAytQPCVZx071s52jRMxZdrljHXfnPa8DQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQLc5G1u7dVP5P6IV3lZwYsqTF6tkUvOkLkPWdc1bs42RWpr9Wp6wHaR/C3LMGMLPRWu4J5g== X-Received: by 2002:a63:844a:: with SMTP id k71mr800188pgd.16.1637187927479; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d3sm655960pfv.57.2021.11.17.14.25.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:25:27 -0800 (PST) To: "StJohns, Michael" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <496216b8-2461-adb7-2624-febd6b43ed02@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:25:22 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:25:34 -0000 On 18-Nov-21 10:58, StJohns, Michael wrote: > So you=E2=80=99re saying that Rfc editor should be read as Rfc series c= onsulting editor going forward?=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not my understanding= =2E No, as "the RFC Editor function" collectively. I thought we'd already set= tled that. A lot of these details will become clearer with experience. I think it's = a mug's game trying to define them in advance. Brian >=20 > Mike >=20 > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the followi= ng: > > > > On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > >> Hello Eric, others, > >> > >> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated=20 to my > >> comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do = that). > >> > >> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > >>> S 3.1.2. > >>> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative = for the IETF > stream, an IESG member > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or a member of the = community selected by the IESG > >>> > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 As the stream representative = for the IAB stream, an IAB member or > >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a member of the com= munity selected by the IAB > >>> > >>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"?=20 That > >>> seems to be what it says. > >> > >> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I th= ink what > >> we wanted was something close to > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0*=C2=A0 As the stream representative for the = IETF stream, preferably > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an IESG member, or otherwise a m= ember of the community selected > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by the IESG > >> > >> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit= , or > >> decide it's not what we meant. > > > > I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not wh= at we > > meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we sh= ould > > reconsider this. > > > > First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection coul= d be > > very quick, no need to call for volunteers. > > > > Second, this could express our understanding that this job is no= t like > > some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in = a while, > > but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially inde= pendent > > and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job i= s to > > stay in close contact with the assigning group or board. >=20 > I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. >=20 > > > > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine= > > currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, doe= s this > > apply to the RSCE? >=20 > See https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-chart= er-03.html#name-introduction : >=20 > "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a liaison m= ember to the IAB. This does not change." >=20 > Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the RSCE or=20 RPC staff)? If so, it's part of the review of draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-c= harter. >=20 > > What about liaison to the IESG? >=20 > Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need updating sinc= e it already says >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0"The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodi= es they > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 represent.=C2=A0 At the time of this writing, the li= aisons present > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 represent the following bodies: >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The RFC Editor > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ..." >=20 > Regards > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 17 14:32:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20F03A07F3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P_zKhcEnvTxh for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E9CB3A07F2 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id p18-20020a17090ad31200b001a78bb52876so6467955pju.3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c/qZKFdFM+c2kuxZiYRplhtzW1Tc26jWDVhV7bwtmE8=; b=MGikIDuqpFZAPUpz9mbwee9pcuSLEXZ5alrYaeF6+n/llnGdUt/Gq0I2wAGX5Cyroy OOq/wTXkYAzBLjmtgenfQFtprRbMcbBUUuY2iK/lBcDPDs21PRuibaQhESVp7JRSho2C GPYBJeDOWuQrrMCsfAvf9UkZvffE4LqjRhF/IxNb/kziuB2GIRmexUUsfrEXFoeIcCao ueVTbz+rqIViPD/il03dMpVQRUw+0XHnixmlAqh95Z9zGXe0wdlJDJxrF1jyBQLekbVt NQxWaygRarHUXIGLsRpg2e1U4gz1nOwbMO2J9NxZQCpyPTq9kekpdl8dXMrIevMhVxVU DLXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c/qZKFdFM+c2kuxZiYRplhtzW1Tc26jWDVhV7bwtmE8=; b=n2TrryUBRwBfneYqF203qwFGO/ItaDkRGt+gNbNHBReMvvVG0XRVm7NURJ4yg3Kc/5 lEfjNvzle1lO+lBKopM3FxlWB1epjLyvn4YhUHUXPKUkU45MKoDTUJcVlZfmYElXNg18 +n5EJnQorMC57jcejd/dMo5iZ52+Sb5NluIHIoXVViHkSqC8EUjCC0mh/bODGk1phH/+ K+FM4Yl2+nH4DWSACHaB0Fa9a1af3ZL7HMMO5F0tId0Nt6tn3CVftW9x0ajdA5GpRSe9 LKB87xeJt9gKDC1uAmDcEgVBu2uYsydY2+p4uvpFw2hAkB1oWWkPMzMQ9CclgOGewBXn cMXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533oSPoJ7fMW3D7k/9YW0dSKIbafxt1R7QnvvSW9dAIwZs5fZM+i uvoPs9LGiW1p/JgKLkXU7osGqSIcPbc0Og== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwGOayoYu9pzLWwBRr2mkMoUCP+kviek6DCqU9IkcqkSi2C3ku1Bp12aYSiuVrjRRJmiEBkLw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b097:b0:141:ec7d:a055 with SMTP id p23-20020a170902b09700b00141ec7da055mr59720693plr.3.1637188333361; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h22sm544613pgl.79.2021.11.17.14.32.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:32:12 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , "StJohns, Michael" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:32:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:32:19 -0000 On 18-Nov-21 11:21, John C Klensin wrote: > Brian, >=20 > I probably agree with Mike. With the new changes in positions > and titles, it is not at all clear what the "RFC Editor > appoints..." means. It may actually make a difference whether > the appointment is made by the RPC or the RSCE, especially > because the latter (no longer as compared to the RSE) has any > direct authority over the RPC. This is not hard to fix now > and, IMO, worth it if we don't want to invite issues in the > future that we would have no mechanism to resolve [1]. Let's > say "RSCE" if we mean that and, if the ambiguity is intentional, > use "RFC Editor Function" to make that clear. I thought this was fixed by Appendix A.1 "RFC Editor Function" of the draft. I'll of course be happy to make this change in draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter if people want that. Brian >=20 > john >=20 > [1] Other than either the IAB deciding who should be the > liaison/ representative or the LLC and/or ExecDir stepping in > and saying "you both work for me and I've decided". I hope we > are in agreement that neither would be a good position to put > anyone in. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 16:58 -0500 "StJohns, Michael" > wrote: >=20 >> So you're saying that Rfc editor should be read as Rfc >> series consulting editor going forward? That's not my >> understanding. >> >> Mike >> >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter >> wrote: >> >>> On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >>>> I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the >>>> following: >>>> >>>> On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: >>>>> Hello Eric, others, >>>>> >>>>> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text >>>>> unrelated to my comments cut out (I wish more people would >>>>> take the time to do that). >>>>> >>>>> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>>>> S 3.1.2. >>>>>> >>>>>> * As the stream representative for the IETF >>> stream, an IESG member >>>>>> or a member of the community selected by the IESG >>>>>> >>>>>> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, >>>>>> an IAB member >>> or >>>>>> a member of the community selected by the IAB >>>>>> >>>>>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the >>>>>> IAB"? That seems to be what it says. >>>>> >>>>> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. >>>>> I think what we wanted was something close to >>>>> >>>>> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, >>>>> preferably an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the >>>>> community selected by the IESG >>>>> >>>>> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that >>>>> explicit, or decide it's not what we meant. >>>> >>>> I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's >>>> not what we meant". However, I think there are two reasons >>>> why I think we should reconsider this. >>>> >>>> First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection >>>> could be very quick, no need to call for volunteers. >>>> >>>> Second, this could express our understanding that this job >>>> is not like some of the others that in particular the IAB >>>> hands out once in a while, but where (in my understanding) >>>> the assignee is essentially independent and doesn't report >>>> back, but it is an assignment where the job is to stay in >>>> close contact with the assigning group or board. >>> >>> I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. >>> >>>> >>>> This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John >>>> Levine currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was >>>> the case, does this apply to the RSCE? >>> >>> See >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-cha >>> rter-03.html#name-introduction : >>> >>> "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a >>> liaison member to the IAB. This does not change." >>> >>> Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the >>> RSCE or RPC staff)? If so, it's part of the review of >>> draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter. >>> >>>> What about liaison to the IESG? >>> >>> Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need >>> updating since it already says >>> >>> "The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies >>> they represent. At the time of this writing, the liaisons >>> present represent the following bodies: >>> >>> The RFC Editor >>> ..." >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:01:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2FF33A081A for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y91HlPBGc_5W for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6279D3A0819 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id x10so5453132ioj.9 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EmQvzlfRhdms7wYNwHiT4fZXR22PBIuXKCw7cj0WNJ0=; b=QT5fkGsf9dpFcIjWLLSGOi6A8cd9ZlJvRuZdk2Z03AXDCaJ0mWVSiv+CgI5Ar+B1ns 2vQb9M6vJYQPoSt7YwTMQWBLH1XlYQkzTMc2odhYS51WjNnTkzM+aGsXxJyLBmCkLf5m PRJa7WxP0q6Wz7ePlaZT1+KRI4fmtgYROUK3WC3yCKy5CuOp/rg2cxwIGY70iQaeLPoW yPSDt0ldwSDQR+t5fgefzVaYJPjD4o7cfjwiTWhfzlwIILQR1OeZ+KIiE8MCiWAXLs2K gMYhtnf97IRAcQWbT6lY8rg7Z6V1M6TcwVEqVcwwrtW9hw2sNZeXM+F4wF7LcamIUkwU uJ/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EmQvzlfRhdms7wYNwHiT4fZXR22PBIuXKCw7cj0WNJ0=; b=SPa0GIWGiIDPvEC/BnkgMfOwPiSxBZ/8s/F4N57O1U1Ov5wDW3T24dSyv4rwYJMAs7 8T2U9vcd2AT4RdX4bsrAIP+m3Ch2x+8w3O/fz2SLpGscOoblg51xOQHw4hH2RtMo6tF1 CwdKfKPVoI/2fG3twP7803o7hiZu7X+NjXS7NguM6+vdb3Dsk2fUbN1vS9s9El3dKTKT TwRJeju6PtLkjXqXK0SQ6LWCY3HJDiu4Hj9BK8I5XZx4g8HsjuH+bKhwD1lTCoYTRux7 LKR8m5wz5z+RqlQQmAlFQCseEz7MyP5WYYtq/8c0OK2tm6rYTLzqIOEXqVt2xbmTWG4G VbJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532E6HNQNq3BYSbjHntZqXeGnvKZZApiOd52V4t3gzhOgc1l7Zzb 9PCyuh618hxkhluJQJtNERwUN2GFEHjOqzE+zUo4q/Me X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiuTI6iJB0PBZfqOPnqb+TJbrsH4UY4WResTcsW36quUD/uKBVr22C0BK1DtAoLHPwAKWUsS3fS7gVGV9dti4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:734d:: with SMTP id a13mr16888830jae.113.1637190060369; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb960805d1040347" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:01:11 -0000 --000000000000fb960805d1040347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:08 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Eric, > > On 18-Nov-21 06:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particularly > informative here, as it seems to > > mean different things to different people. It might be useful for people > who think there > > is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the > operational implications > > of "archival" are. > > > Exactly. As a principle, it's a buzzword. > Right. And this is why my concern about having a principle that says that they are archival, because I would expect it to be invoked to oppose change, even though we never actually had any consensus one what it meant. > Let's take the thought experiment a bit further. Let's assume that > [miracle needed here] the IETF decides to remove one of the major bugs in > its standards process in such a way, for example, that the IPv6 standard > defined in RFC1883.0 would have been updated as RFC1883.1 and RFC1883.2 > (instead of RFC2460 and RFC8200), and therefore requests the RSWG to define > a policy allowing such renumbering to be applied. > > Does that breach the principle that the RFC series is "archival"? > > Is it seriously likely that the RSWG will say "no, that's fine" without a > discussion that involves the IESG and IAB anyway? > This seems like a great example, but I also think it's hard to determine what direction it cuts in. I agree that RSWG would be very foolish to make such a change without consulting the IESG and IAB (and if they didn't, I would expect some kind of unsolicited input). On the other hand, doesn't that render a requirement to consult them superfluous? Moreover, as I indicated, the IESG and IAB collectively control 3 votes on the RSAB, so it seems unlikely that any such change would pass without their support. -Ekr --000000000000fb960805d1040347 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:08 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
Eric,

On 18-Nov-21 06:27, Eric Rescorla wrote:


<snip>

> With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particu= larly informative here, as it seems to
> mean different things to different people. It might be useful for peop= le who think there
> is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the = operational implications
> of "archival" are.


Exactly. As a principle, it's a buzzword.

Right. And this is why my concern about having a principle that says= that they are archival, because I would expect it to be invoked to oppose = change, even though we never actually had any consensus one what it meant.<= /div>


Let's take the thought experiment a bit further. Let's assume that = [miracle needed here] the IETF decides to remove one of the major bugs in i= ts standards process in such a way, for example, that the IPv6 standard def= ined in RFC1883.0 would have been updated as RFC1883.1 and RFC1883.2 (inste= ad of RFC2460 and RFC8200), and therefore requests the RSWG to define a pol= icy allowing such renumbering to be applied.

Does that breach the principle that the RFC series is "archival"?=

Is it seriously likely that the RSWG will say "no, that's fine&quo= t; without a discussion that involves the IESG and IAB anyway?

This=C2=A0 seems like a great example, but I also t= hink it's hard to determine what direction it cuts in.

I agree that RSWG would be very foolish to make such a change with= out consulting the IESG and IAB (and if they didn't, I would expect som= e kind of unsolicited input). On the other hand, doesn't that render a = requirement to consult them superfluous? Moreover, as I indicated, the IESG= and IAB collectively control 3 votes on the RSAB, so it seems unlikely tha= t any such change would pass without their support.

-Ekr


--000000000000fb960805d1040347-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:01:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BF33A0819 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gFsSNgWWvW9L for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 095653A081B for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnTvh-000DUs-Jg; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:01:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:01:19 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:01:31 -0000 --On Thursday, November 18, 2021 11:08 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Eric, > > On 18-Nov-21 06:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > >> With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particularly >> informative here, as it seems to mean different things to >> different people. It might be useful for people who think >> there is an important principle here to try map out in more >> detail what the operational implications of "archival" are. > > Exactly. As a principle, it's a buzzword. To make it > meaningful needs expertise that is largely going to come from > the RSCE and the experienced members of the RPC. > > Let's take the thought experiment a bit further. Let's assume > that [miracle needed here] the IETF decides to remove one of > the major bugs in its standards process in such a way, for > example, that the IPv6 standard defined in RFC1883.0 would > have been updated as RFC1883.1 and RFC1883.2 (instead of > RFC2460 and RFC8200), and therefore requests the RSWG to > define a policy allowing such renumbering to be applied. > > Does that breach the principle that the RFC series is > "archival"? Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially in order of publication. It would also cause problems for external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates to it. And for the particular example of 1893 and its successors, it would be solving a non-existent problem because we already have the notation of STD 86 (more on that below). I don't think any of those factors should cause an absolute prohibition on the hypothetical change you suggest. However... > Is it seriously likely that the RSWG will say "no, that's > fine" without a discussion that involves the IESG and IAB > anyway? I would like to be as sure as we can that the RSWG (and the RSAB) are aware of the issues outlined above and not just about an IETF decision that it would improve the standards process. If, fully aware of and having considered those issues, they decided that the costs were worth it, had thought through other adjustments that would need to be made to preserve stability, and went ahead anyway, so be it. But, if the decision were made only on the basis of "bug in the standards process", I think that would be bad trouble for the stability and reputation of the series. And, fwiw, that "bug" is exactly the reason overlay numbering (e.g., BCP, STD, and FYI for a while) was introduced into the series and why there have been repeated proposals along the lines of the NEWTRK work and to assign STD numbers at Proposed Standard. Another principle, one that I hope does not need writing down but that is a component of "Archival", is that making changes that have the potential to be disruptive to things that have worked for years requires careful consideration including examination of possibly less-disruptive alternatives. john From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:11:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBFE3A082C for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com 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RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:11:33 -0000 --------------dgflKJIB8mFfIueP0obK78d2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------e5GHSmKfFIMRvA1OkMVknFJJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Joel Halpern Direct Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Tommy Pauly Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: --------------e5GHSmKfFIMRvA1OkMVknFJJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------lPrFOt0WZ4QaCFsItGRm48fh" --------------lPrFOt0WZ4QaCFsItGRm48fh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed 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Cc: Joel Halpern Direct , rfced-future@iab.org, Tommy Pauly Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ad670005d1043e00" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:17:32 -0000 --000000000000ad670005d1043e00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:11 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > (I do wish some of the people who don't want to talk about > principles in the draft would provide some concrete examples > of what they really would like to change that might run afoul > of such text. ISTM, that's been asked for and not answered a > number of times now which makes this discussion feel a bit > like being asked to bring a rock.) > As I said at the beginning of this discussion, my objection is to having the text there at all, so it doesn't much matter what the principles are; I'm certainly not asking anyone to bring a rock. However at this point I've now provided three separate examples of principles I don't think should go there, one of which is in this very message ("archival"), and the other two being "RFCs are in English" and "world class document series". On 17/11/2021 17:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particularly informative > > here, as it seems to > > mean different things to different people. > > Yet you don't say what meaning you attach to that? It would > be helpful if you would. > My point, as Brian says, is that it's a buzzword, and that therefore we shouldn't use it. -Ekr > > It might be useful for people > > who think there > > is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the > > operational implications > > of "archival" are. > > For me, archival includes (but is not solely defined by) the > ability to read the RFC decades after it was written. We have > a series that has demonstrably achieved that. I would think > any change that puts that at serious risk should have to pass > some higher level of approval than a change that does not. > One consequence of that is (I think, but am willing to be > educated further) that we probably need to keep some at least > output format for RFCs that requires minimal tooling. At this > point, I could see that changing from text to PDF perhaps > without that being a "breach" of this principle, but a change > to HTML plus CSS & JS & whatever else (for a supposedly > archival friendly output format) ought require passing a > higher bar as I think that would threaten the archival aspect > of the series. > > Cheers, > S. > > PS: I'm not so fussed as to the detail of the higher bar. My > main point is that we should mention these principles in the > draft so that the RSWG really has to deal with the (good bits > of the) heritage and/or some agreed principles. > > > --000000000000ad670005d1043e00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:11 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

(I do wish some of the people who don't want to talk about
principles in the draft would provide some concrete examples
of what they really would like to change that might run afoul
of such text. ISTM, that's been asked for and not answered a
number of times now which makes this discussion feel a bit
like being asked to bring a rock.)

As I= said at the beginning of this discussion, my objection is to having the
text there at all, so it doesn't much matter what the principle= s are;
I'm certainly not asking anyone to bring a rock.

However at this point I've now provided three s= eparate examples of
principles I don't think should go there,= one of which is in this very
message ("archival"), and= the other two being "RFCs are in English"
and "wo= rld class document series".=C2=A0


<= div>
On 17/11/2021 17:27, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
> With that said, I don't find the term "archival" particu= larly informative
> here, as it seems to
> mean different things to different people.

Yet you don't say what meaning you attach to that? It would
be helpful if you would.

My point, as B= rian says, is that it's a buzzword, and that therefore we shouldn't= use it.

-Ekr


<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> It might be useful for people
> who think there
> is an important principle here to try map out in more detail what the<= br> > operational implications
> of "archival" are.

For me, archival includes (but is not solely defined by) the
ability to read the RFC decades after it was written. We have
a series that has demonstrably achieved that. I would think
any change that puts that at serious risk should have to pass
some higher level of approval than a change that does not.
One consequence of that is (I think, but am willing to be
educated further) that we probably need to keep some at least
output format for RFCs that requires minimal tooling. At this
point, I could see that changing from text to PDF perhaps
without that being a "breach" of this principle, but a change
to HTML plus CSS & JS & whatever else (for a supposedly
archival friendly output format) ought require passing a
higher bar as I think that would threaten the archival aspect
of the series.

Cheers,
S.

PS: I'm not so fussed as to the detail of the higher bar. My
main point is that we should mention these principles in the
draft so that the RSWG really has to deal with the (good bits
of the) heritage and/or some agreed principles.


--000000000000ad670005d1043e00-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:30:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A633A0856 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:30:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 016Z2yZThUY3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D6C73A0855 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnUNA-000DWX-Bl; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:29:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:29:42 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Stephen Farrell , Eric Rescorla , Joel Halpern Direct cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Tommy Pauly Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:30:01 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 23:11 +0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: >... >> It might be useful for people > who think there > is an >> important principle here to try map out in more detail > what >> the operational implications > of "archival" are. > For me, archival includes (but is not solely defined by) the > ability to read the RFC decades after it was written. We have > a series that has demonstrably achieved that. I would think > any change that puts that at serious risk should have to pass > some higher level of approval than a change that does not. > One consequence of that is (I think, but am willing to be > educated further) that we probably need to keep some at least > output format for RFCs that requires minimal tooling. At this > point, I could see that changing from text to PDF perhaps > without that being a "breach" of this principle, but a change > to HTML plus CSS & JS & whatever else (for a supposedly > archival friendly output format) ought require passing a > higher bar as I think that would threaten the archival aspect > of the series. Rather good explanation, IMO. I would add that "Archival Series" goes beyond just "Archival Document" as described above and into issues of whether ways to access those documents are stable. See my recent response to Brian Carpenter about NNNN.1 for a better explanation and examples, but, if someone is going to reference an RFC from a publication that has high standards for the long-term availability and accessibility for things that are referenced, another part of "Archival" is that we should have a clear standard for those references (not doing as well about that as we were a decade or two IMO) and that they should be stable. That does not mean "never make a change". It does means being extra-aware of potential risks and consequences and, in almost all cases, including mitigation of damage in the evaluation of, and decisions about, that change. >... > PS: I'm not so fussed as to the detail of the higher bar. My > main point is that we should mention these principles in the > draft so that the RSWG really has to deal with the (good bits > of the) heritage and/or some agreed principles. I'm not fussed about those details either. I just want to be as sure as possible, not only that the RSWG deals with things as suggested above but that we go further than we might reasonably go for less consequential changes to be sure that we get input as broad as possible and that the RSWG does its evaluation on the basis of that broader set of perspectives. Dragging in other bodies who presumably have broader perspectives and more responsibility to people and groups outside the IETF than the RSWG is likely to have is just a way to try to accomplish that and not necessarily the only one. best, john > > From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:30:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1C63A0857 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:30:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) 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rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:30:31 -0000 --------------qoDJV9p53wzfsbJpJv02he13 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2Fy0D1CsmHqyioTZLU5QDLZd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Joel Halpern Direct , rfced-future@iab.org, Tommy Pauly Message-ID: <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: --------------2Fy0D1CsmHqyioTZLU5QDLZd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XojS4ZBAZcBD for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C1A33A0062 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnUVj-000DXM-8z; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:38:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:38:33 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eric Rescorla , Stephen Farrell cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly Message-ID: <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:38:47 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 15:16 -0800 Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Yet you don't say what meaning you attach to that? It would >> be helpful if you would. > > My point, as Brian says, is that it's a buzzword, and that > therefore we shouldn't use it. "buzzword" is a way of casting aspersions on some terminology without trying engage with intentions and underlying meaning. In the communities who deal with what is not called Information Science and with document repositories where both the repositories and the documents are expected to be available for a long time (e.g., many times the current age of the Internet), the term is rather well understood even though people may quibble about details. And Stephen's description is rather good, plus or minus my additions, is rather good. But, if you find "archival" offensive, I suggest we try to agree on Stephen's explanation (or something else to it) and then, if necessary, assign another word or set of words. best, john From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:46:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67A03A00DB for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:46:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjvXQIqLEjp5 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A3293A00D8 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id b40so16521244lfv.10 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jB6LYS44V/5+oUYuTwYEtjJnlTKziV7WUdoNClqrMdM=; b=QBgZDJWGZ/qKPmN7u/7b7TSrNw0/Aj7xD4W+R/eF699qh6SH6qMCwH6DBtkg3tHhNL szIiTbT6R7droKg7Xui0nRMa5+ZOO+xkQ+w5W8btqIyAfmdGDdYQMQHHP25DGY8PTm4N PWVYFI4sBSYRjAcG/mTfGBKQ+TOz75eyNReI33bmO3enlGqpjr8Qzm+V8VlpgqRHm+S5 m78+tq4vU5c2cVf63dlMN7hve8mCxdPT43s8Rk2KYrafIi48wYBYcAZNJ22gC2e6+ZIY g4SKl8leZSQqKEw9qizFR5bYeF4AJhCfXOC0tWUJ01ITQTtWHPrqEeKBuF9joJESMDvZ mVPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jB6LYS44V/5+oUYuTwYEtjJnlTKziV7WUdoNClqrMdM=; b=5gXnA8hFbp5/aLGUO0+JOVYNogmYwCpOwCCwurFt7gmNwnpnIwkJIihl4WtwW7XXqZ gZslktGZ2rieAqXEQUdxZUgtRKnSNkVGAv/Cf6PyzTcY993uiib5c3MNcvx9i7WOdamL 2Cc9MHizhsueX9ypPIpNxe1DKH6sSjrBO7dj+qidDNDFSjLcJTHYqFH6LmDDsCoyZybb PJ2wtteFDhJ6uNSz6U54h4Gnsz/Ug8eC20RhHLcWotUrNuNJ+jwSiu+1gbBzNijautZv 56H3EQcN8ki9npnICNKP4HKMZRzSkop5M9tA9f7palq+xXJupcMq5XksI28nEp2MORpV q9wQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532K8KWD9qZoLA36Mtzf4tu/3V2JDI0EyZqLVw37Haum2adj+ZzW vlZezDiH9SYyFnU6tRDgbF/sk+XGai5ayOIQX4OPjpNT7NEMog== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxihYyoCb++ORVpwu/WoTUGTUx2EJLdKOb+l3QM6h+A5DZc4cnFiZna6+Dvbolg1mKXERXagEEhxIl0H5SWiL0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:693:: with SMTP id t19mr19408448lfe.647.1637192758977; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:45:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "StJohns, Michael" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:45:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3fab405d104a459" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] April 1st detail [What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:46:08 -0000 --000000000000d3fab405d104a459 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nope. The assignment of this to the ISE vs the RSE was not a stream issue exactly. And I can see it being moved about or even snuffed out being within the proposed purview of the RSWG. Or do you have text that says otherwise? Later, Mike On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 17:20 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Martin, > > On 17-Nov-21 23:08, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > ... > > > > [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of what > > stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.] > > > They are part of the Independent Stream, so it's a matter of stream polic= y, > not an RSWG matter. > > Brian > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000d3fab405d104a459 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nope.=C2=A0 The assignment of this to the ISE vs the RSE = was not a stream issue exactly.=C2=A0 And I can see it being moved about or= even snuffed out being within the proposed =C2=A0purview of the RSWG.=C2= =A0 Or do you have text that says otherwise?

Later, Mike

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 17:20 Brian E = Carpenter <brian.e.carpen= ter@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin= ,

On 17-Nov-21 23:08, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
...


> [The mention of April fool's RFCs also leads to the question of wh= at
> stream they will be published in. Maybe worth an issue, maybe not.]

They are part of the Independent Stream, so it's a matter of stream pol= icy,
not an RSWG matter.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000d3fab405d104a459-- From nobody Wed Nov 17 15:54:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36C83A0101 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:54:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=okVmkBew; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iOTcRab/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOpAgTXfBwQE for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 158BC3A0112 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4BD5C0124; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:54:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=M +Gp3fmZfpsQ0LZaT5yR9rRJrDDLnTMMk0MKgvbzN8Q=; b=okVmkBewawE8oTmxI B4K5w2Xj9CU1VaZPVXq1sMqZr597LiscfXSaHUxda7UpQhy1OOyIxdAL3LTQaaFi S5IHYxiiiCsTCqUHgI+AuBS62Oog7nUXXyNaFzOAoPstt9u8LHCZhNTmJR6k3Sfd TlEV8dYjoW0yr69bTu81PJY8wnMfVmBp43JLg5LQNd7L9IqXguTMaljIWM4bsjhN lS0MbwWK9ZSseZT5CalCMrWWVXr8x/CLfULbgyuDFhPFUDv2BUl+F1SfAlDLSyKf s5020fvVIxSD1r1dB1ohiqzVq6FMsi0emymSeou/4dloRS6P4B3Fft+9V7WvK557 lnzHg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=M+Gp3fmZfpsQ0LZaT5yR9rRJrDDLnTMMk0MKgvbzN 8Q=; b=iOTcRab/ccL0l38l8d6i8zoYmznEXYhkuvYaX+OwYF2gZMGrSrGLRwHWy uuCfCEF2edN7Tp4Ptxb8+2aZQBPYbDsr66M7jnvgXLtY/nTDp0ex5qEBAVer9iTn avfp1AlUhL8712gvit4MXMNZmFOqSgVs9yLiEMrz5dEU8nJK0xVcyLRLGIF7WwFl zcU8J2Eyk1ATkc/6WASTY8CEQ5xUbjBtiMv+lSM4mLsBd3f9o/0i/hmP5PixQQZe D7mq04mEV/nzMojKUcvdJyx+WOu3a4Ob0wU8WBBBNQ36sXkEgFmm1MFqmsRFTbgm Nc7G2lgYZp2ijcIfW5Qbb/8Xc5lRg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfeehgddugecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepgeffueehhedthfeiveekhfeikefgudehveeiveduveevueeuteelveevvdejkeff necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpihgrsgdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohht sehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:54:28 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:54:26 +1100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8B42B702-7F2A-43A7-9118-FA086420C596@mnot.net> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: "StJohns, Michael" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:54:36 -0000 +1 - 'RFC Editor' is now a sort of vestigial function that doesn't map = 1:1 with any particular role -- it's more of a shorthand for 'something = to do with the RFC Series'. > On 18 Nov 2021, at 8:58 am, StJohns, Michael = wrote: >=20 > So you=E2=80=99re saying that Rfc editor should be read as Rfc series = consulting editor going forward? That=E2=80=99s not my understanding. =20= >=20 > Mike >=20 > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 16:49 Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > On 17-Nov-21 22:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > I'm sorry, but in my thoughts I keep comming back to the following: > >=20 > > On 2021-11-08 15:31, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > >> Hello Eric, others, > >> > >> A few comments inline, not all directed at Eric. Text unrelated to = my > >> comments cut out (I wish more people would take the time to do = that). > >> > >> On 2021-11-08 09:01, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >=20 > >>> S 3.1.2. > >>> > >>> * As the stream representative for the IETF=20 > stream, an IESG member > >>> or a member of the community selected by the IESG > >>> > >>> * As the stream representative for the IAB stream, an IAB = member or > >>> a member of the community selected by the IAB > >>> > >>> Could we simplify this to be "any person selected by the IAB"? = That > >>> seems to be what it says. > >> > >> Almost, but not exactly, at least the way I understood it. I think = what > >> we wanted was something close to > >> > >> * As the stream representative for the IETF stream, preferably > >> an IESG member, or otherwise a member of the community = selected > >> by the IESG > >> > >> (and likewise for the IAB). Maybe we need to make that explicit, or > >> decide it's not what we meant. > >=20 > > I think the discussion went into the direction of "that's not what = we > > meant". However, I think there are two reasons why I think we should > > reconsider this. > >=20 > > First, "preferably an IESG member" means that the selection could be > > very quick, no need to call for volunteers. > >=20 > > Second, this could express our understanding that this job is not = like > > some of the others that in particular the IAB hands out once in a = while, > > but where (in my understanding) the assignee is essentially = independent > > and doesn't report back, but it is an assignment where the job is to > > stay in close contact with the assigning group or board. >=20 > I agree with Eliot; I think we're done on this. >=20 > >=20 > > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine > > currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does = this > > apply to the RSCE?=20 >=20 > See = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-03.html#= name-introduction: >=20 > "Note that RFC 2850 states that the RFC Editor appoints a liaison = member to the IAB. This does not change." >=20 > Do we really need to sweat that in detail (whether it's the RSCE or = RPC staff)? If so, it's part of the review of = draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter. >=20 > > What about liaison to the IESG? >=20 > Same story, except that the IESG Charter doesn't need updating since = it already says >=20 > "The liaisons are selected as appropriate by the bodies they > represent. At the time of this writing, the liaisons present > represent the following bodies: >=20 > The RFC Editor > ..." >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 17 17:18:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CFF3A067A for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IrNm9idgeSGF for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59E643A0659 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id n8so3783521plf.4 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/KZ9kuPIjd/OOh2wP6/h9Dnsh0OEG59jsnkjoHN+lBY=; b=FWS4epknt+KzZXZgYwmGuTbcq89RXhRvwL+040XeKRbQyt+1GitrVOfvr+fAOjDdkG RvXSFbJ+0QHMMsupF2Rw/F2FGiM4NnGEDy/7zIqyo3KoX6wB1hOJKeF9L6GQO3gwqU06 LHo1GylM2aOe5usMVGXWoDcIq17oVYXBgoR5u2ljOoXr44G7926Lx21XDGNxthkRMcCZ eI5ODj7SNgFr+UqUSFodRYGq88ymraobb1fDEEvOXhg75Hd0I1F+Hzi2CUWBzH+uTpH8 qCK5erR2iOPMAA0t0XF58FX5Lqsp9zwzhWuTFf4BrweAzmCYOH5PkGI9OeghVYMJY64Z kn/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/KZ9kuPIjd/OOh2wP6/h9Dnsh0OEG59jsnkjoHN+lBY=; b=AfU5ibdOKniEH8RrLwM7EURgDglswdcQJAE57aqzn/tN0HJP83Y5sXGbq4oD0eLrBP BpDWUlsOrnl85AAK7eGrl0l5L3gihPH5bw3a37G+qPOhafvytKoioiQtK6pPQtFWLmp+ /IyS7sLXisgW60pW+w/ej+bX1WkmS7sto5aJHxPUJO9fVrFMmY8j+FSnC/GJEiYE4rGi rs0Yjyr5y5S2PWCWHfzQ4ZZvDIXX5SQzEyFmNzD8CSXmZi78L+jUmufON2zqpM11XwS1 yGUHUqmy9kXBhYRW6i3ko2IwZilsb4+jRvrY67PRtZb8Wa2VVlSReLKd80ifcvmm43P8 NMlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ACAWzZNmo8OmhcD3Nv+B76ejRXHElHEAMR6u50YSHwc1myKxi FAe6SG5LsxYuDCsdFR8scGPQPe6KgH09vA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZCLZcM/CO6bHC55oPmzY2GOXI6kr8tdLSApBQb4CqYQQfjklfWW4p3hqy8S3L772g6Vftkg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:380a:: with SMTP id mq10mr5253025pjb.61.1637198324416; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id mm22sm761444pjb.28.2021.11.17.17.18.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:18:43 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:18:39 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:18:51 -0000 On 18-Nov-21 12:38, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 15:16 -0800 Eric Rescorla > wrote: > >>> Yet you don't say what meaning you attach to that? It would >>> be helpful if you would. >> >> My point, as Brian says, is that it's a buzzword, and that >> therefore we shouldn't use it. > > "buzzword" is a way of casting aspersions on some terminology > without trying engage with intentions and underlying meaning. To be fair, I asserted that it was a buzzword when used unqualified as a statement of principle. I've served on several library committees and at least one archive committee, and am a card-carrying user of the NZ National Archive, so I certainly appreciate the value of a traditional library-style archive. > In the communities who deal with what is not called Information > Science and with document repositories where both the > repositories and the documents are expected to be available for > a long time (e.g., many times the current age of the Internet), > the term is rather well understood even though people may > quibble about details. And Stephen's description is rather > good, plus or minus my additions, is rather good. > > But, if you find "archival" offensive, I suggest we try to agree > on Stephen's explanation (or something else to it) and then, if > necessary, assign another word or set of words. Here's the thing. We are indeed lacking a definition of what "archive" means for the RFC Series. How can we make a statement of principle *before* doing the work to agree on such a definition? I think this illustrates my main concern. It seems to me that reaching a solid consensus on Mike's proposed set of principles would take work and time, and would leave the RFC Editor Function in a state of administrative uncertainty for several more months. I would much prefer to avoid this, even though I largely support those principles as written. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 17 17:21:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A9D3A0687 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzdvVX6T3QIG for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 670DA3A040F for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse459.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.205] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx134.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mnW7C-0008Ar-KN for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 02:21:28 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HvhpF08wHzBrn for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mnW7A-0006gl-Sf for rfced-future@iab.org; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 17850 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2021 01:21:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.195]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 18 Nov 2021 01:21:24 -0000 Message-ID: <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 17:21:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.205 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/KuBU PAtqIzclYl+y4UjdeGvwbOl0qtP5EgfDRdSDhnwOSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4amLIlhV wP2HQYvX8wxRXZtkkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dlAMC5uyzWopS9Dc1M1eieYk 7mtm0ub05GujODtFaeJub3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlvpNQBUyextRmz5VbywRU5a3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlafqqn et2UjKDAtBu+//HsSQ4V31kC2NWQJYrBRfbC4NRRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Z1iexsSqF5wqj1hzL iAkUnfVrY0eteCQ5lDckfL/NDU+N9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:21:33 -0000 On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not > listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially > in order of publication. It would also cause problems for > external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and > organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a > sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a > professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and > we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of > documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 > and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a > problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk > violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the > convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by > them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies > component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates > to it. That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what we should do. I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the text is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list overlap. I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the quip about "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact that for the last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were in fact the work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers have long used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, SIGCOM or USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now we stick to the short formulation in RFC 8729:    The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting    Internet technical specifications, including general contributions    from the Internet research and engineering community as well as    standards documents.    RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the Internet. I think that these short sentences carry the essence of what we want, i.e., centered on the Internet, open to both standards and diverse voices, widely available at any time, and archived so that texts can be retrieved at any time. The problems start when we want to elaborate. Your example of unintended consequences of simple changes is a great example of possible elaborations. But I am not sure that we want that level of details in the current draft. In fact, when I see this kind of arguments, I become more convinced that we should keep a simple text in the draft, and ask the WG to write down the full details. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Wed Nov 17 18:49:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248F53A080F for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:49:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=UCkbE9Hp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Lx49KPCt Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z6wPjM8QWiSU for ; 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Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:49:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:49:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 02:49:45 -0000 On 11/17/21 6:21 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > >> Not really.  It does, however, breaches the principle (not >> listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially >> in order of publication.  It would also cause problems for >> external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and >> organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a >> sequence of digits with no delimiters.  If a paper in a >> professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and >> we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of >> documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 >> and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a >> problem too.  Finally (for now at least), it would risk >> violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the >> convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by >> them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies >> component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates >> to it. > > That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what we > should do. > > I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the text > is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list overlap. > I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the quip about > "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact that for the > last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were in fact the > work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers have long > used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, SIGCOM or > USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now we stick > to the short formulation in RFC 8729: > >    The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >    Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >    from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >    standards documents. Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05#section-1 Peter From nobody Wed Nov 17 19:27:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582263A08A1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:27:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbxrzRn9cRJ9 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11E893A08A0 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hvlbl3y5yz1ntwh for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637206051; bh=Qby3u4DavL0uUfTumlEUQst6AIJ1ZUjGmP4y3UBG92Q=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=EAQsfMF2hilJiGWAnY56y0SgB9uo1pkJx3WHQB6bhzJXT+2NZeeiWRbswf1OYydOK CDVvSPqbU5R/OdXF17F79qypwipScA4Te9QXtC8lfhwMBcS6/RPMf75Pb0tZjAHfln 7LrsSwo/eLM0NwP8TPB4eKacROZ9TiU9x+69Ab0o= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hvlbl0tHbz1ntlX for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:27:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 03:27:36 -0000 EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already have text that says that the RSAB members are expected to watch out for harm to the long term health of the series. This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get out of having these principles in the document, and what mechanisms we might use to achieve it. So I am now wondering if a slightly different approach to the sensitivity of the principles might help; instead of pointing to the IAB and IESG. (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents of having principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the below.): The following principles are understood to be important to the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that either change these principles, or significantly change the way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay particular attention to a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the RFC series; and b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series ? Yours, Joel From nobody Wed Nov 17 19:37:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F413A08C3 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:37:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=EXV8R/+c; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=S2MV2VVD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDqJwBGxAlCg for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B82043A08C1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 19:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D9C3200657; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:37:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=+ 7YbPoySHbs3B1d8V8wxzA15aDQ9oZ6lN5nNZTOUS00=; b=EXV8R/+cmH8KbX19C FLZOZXOP5pkOc36Oh7gi0TC3BzzsHT91/ku0Mh7J1ZVosqQZayIsyRqbmOPlhCFL zv0xcLa2A29bDZZIURXHaM0mWw5/fx2VOQ+9IA1oK/lGh3l1KDFJHqEShyD1LF4Z 1Nm+y3pa8Bq4fb5CutgUgZZMLXTpgSeFueh70UqwHLPoZbarbguqo6A1WbfXhRKS a6t/qKZJ3jXojaVMVjRrqiSSjM229kaQojISIVpsnOcrzwgoBgWy5Efu9shryC2L 70dHMZpe7+0FfcAAVVJd5yGPEjMOabZjhO3QBR/iMOfsgqjZpcY3nT6tx/AupWCr s9FkQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=+7YbPoySHbs3B1d8V8wxzA15aDQ9oZ6lN5nNZTOUS 00=; b=S2MV2VVDHHsAAKZfejbAWxNvtk5/7nrioBeDPSRhVy5rxsM6Xy8mnlChu Is4rVn2cPao4L5VeyxtCOcMBDB+4LfIo0Pllh7F9dpmpNb2CBuZuZNLR8rIOEcnm pxJxa0PLS7R5Eu9nIraLLk3N+8P272+bO5hZ2lCOpgsHNz+jf5ND6A2uzaVAmvkT O3MPPG3znlSJ8Zo+8+U/JCCOB2SwFVLuRp3junviZa2nsV5A2Hj870OZl+XsSTB5 nRje85gMrSbtFJhaM9tDnN6Ah4CDNIII4GW73b6l3qo4YaKZM9kS+ZXveQRrhU1g IOCFPXlVHdaQIbQbFrFYJ7ol/nB9g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfeehgdehlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeutdekhfdtgffgjeejgeekveehfefhgf eugfehfefggeekhfeitdegudevudefieenucffohhmrghinhepihgrsgdrohhrghdpmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:37:29 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:37:27 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 03:37:40 -0000 Just for clarity - is that proposal a complete replacement, or to be = prepended to Mike's proposed list? > On 18 Nov 2021, at 2:27 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already have = text that says that the RSAB members are expected to watch out for harm = to the long term health of the series. > This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get out of = having these principles in the document, and what mechanisms we might = use to achieve it. So I am now wondering if a slightly different = approach to the sensitivity of the principles might help; instead of = pointing to the IAB and IESG. > (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents of having = principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the below.): >=20 > The following principles are understood to be important to > the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that > either change these principles, or significantly change the > way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay > particular attention to > a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health > of the RFC series; and > b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and > comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series >=20 > ? >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 17 20:23:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DD73A08F2 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 20:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCIT3pQE1JnF for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 20:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D0513A08EE for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 20:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnYx1-000E8K-3e; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:23:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:23:02 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <868FD7DF8DF17703B8869941@PSB> In-Reply-To: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 04:23:16 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 22:27 -0500 "Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already > have text that says that the RSAB members are expected to > watch out for harm to the long term health of the series. > This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get > out of having these principles in the document, and what > mechanisms we might use to achieve it. So I am now wondering > if a slightly different approach to the sensitivity of the > principles might help; instead of pointing to the IAB and IESG. > (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents > of having principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the > below.): > > The following principles are understood to be important to > the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG > that > either change these principles, or significantly change > the > way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to > pay > particular attention to > a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term > health > of the RFC series; and > b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and > comment in the larger community affected by the RFC > Series Joel, I think this may be on the right track. However, with the way we have composed the RSAB, there is really no reason to believe that its members will have the expertise to reliably answer either of those questions without introducing additional process. That leads back to either my interpretation of that part of Mike's proposal, i.e., * force review and approval by additional bodies who have perspective and general responsibility beyond the series, specifically the IAB, IESG, and LLC Board (if it is working correctly, I consider the IAB the most important of these, but that is a detail) or some variation on mine, * think through in advance how to be sure a much broader community can be made aware of the potential changes and given an opportunity rather that relying on either contacts made in the middle of the review process or on the "feelings" of RSAG members as to what the effects might be. best, john From nobody Wed Nov 17 21:20:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5591A3A012B for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HuJWAzfueZNC for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D37BA3A0126 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnZqe-000EJO-Vz; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:20:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:20:31 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:20:46 -0000 --On Thursday, November 18, 2021 14:18 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 18-Nov-21 12:38, John C Klensin wrote: >> >> >> --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 15:16 -0800 Eric Rescorla >> wrote: >> >>>> Yet you don't say what meaning you attach to that? It would >>>> be helpful if you would. >>> >>> My point, as Brian says, is that it's a buzzword, and that >>> therefore we shouldn't use it. >> >> "buzzword" is a way of casting aspersions on some terminology >> without trying engage with intentions and underlying meaning. > To be fair, I asserted that it was a buzzword when used > unqualified as a statement of principle. I've served on > several library committees and at least one archive committee, > and am a card-carrying user of the NZ National Archive, so I > certainly appreciate the value of a traditional library-style > archive. And, to be clear, I was not responding to your use of that term as much as to another message that seems to assert that, because it was a buzzword. there was no value in using the term. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, but in line with earlier notes, that meant that, because a buzzword had been used, there was little point in discussing the topic further. >> In the communities who deal with what is not called >> Information Science and with document repositories where both >> the repositories and the documents are expected to be >> available for a long time (e.g., many times the current age >> of the Internet), the term is rather well understood even >> though people may quibble about details. And Stephen's >> description is rather good, plus or minus my additions, is >> rather good. >> >> But, if you find "archival" offensive, I suggest we try to >> agree on Stephen's explanation (or something else to it) and >> then, if necessary, assign another word or set of words. > Here's the thing. We are indeed lacking a definition of what > "archive" means for the RFC Series. How can we make a > statement of principle *before* doing the work to agree on > such a definition? And that is precisely why I suggested putting the term aside (at least temporarily) and focus on Stephen's description and mine, which operationalizes the key elements of the concept for which we have been using that term. And, of course, it is only one of the principles/policies on Mike's list. > I think this illustrates my main concern. It seems to me that > reaching a solid consensus on Mike's proposed set of > principles would take work and time, and would leave the RFC > Editor Function in a state of administrative uncertainty for > several more months. I would much prefer to avoid this, even > though I largely support those principles as written. The opposing concern, at least from my perspective (which clearly differs from elements of Mike's) is that, while I share your concern about having this process drag out further and am upset that it has dragged out this long, I am even more concerned about the possibility that, because we have swept too much under the rug, kicked too many issues down the road, or failed to be sufficiently clear about issues that require special attention, something goes seriously awry and we find ourselves back here in a couple of years. While I think the odds of things going that seriously bad are low, the risks and consequences could be sufficiently bad if they occurred that I think it is worth some extra time and effort to leave more of us confident that we have reached the right balance between "right" and "sooner". best, john From nobody Wed Nov 17 21:27:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241153A012C for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:27:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3_WICwfjtY1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C0543A012B for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnZx4-000EJt-Ch; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:27:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:27:09 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre , Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <41EE4D7442326361C0358421@PSB> In-Reply-To: <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:27:26 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 19:49 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated = to >> documenting =C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet technical specifications, >> including general contributions =C2=A0=C2=A0 from the = Internet >> research and engineering community as well as =C2=A0=C2=A0 = standards >> documents. >=20 > Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced- > model-05#section-1 Indeed. And the combination of Christian's comments and that text strengthens my belief that we are getting close and that the current debate is, or should be, as much about defining things that require exceptional review and those review mechanisms than real disagreements about about principles. However, if we really have no idea what "archival" means or if it means enough different things to different people --as I think has been suggested but maybe I misunderstood-- then that sentence is handwaving rather than definitive. Also, at the risk of nit-picking, note that "technical specification" has a very specific meaning defined in RFC 2026 and that a very significant fraction of the documents in the series do not meet that definition. best, john From nobody Wed Nov 17 22:25:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C4A3A0526 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:25:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqCH_cbNFpRV for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------faPAg9Aq0j11Rf77vz7CsTAF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:25:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------faPAg9Aq0j11Rf77vz7CsTAF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------dwsPIy9m5Y1D9NYGBHp0H9go"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <0dd1a34c-99f5-43aa-9d20-c1671138a25a@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --------------dwsPIy9m5Y1D9NYGBHp0H9go Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sm9objoNCg0KT24gMTguMTEuMjEgMDY6MjAsIEpvaG4gQyBLbGVuc2luIHdyb3RlOg0KPiAg IEkgYW0gZXZlbiBtb3JlDQo+IGNvbmNlcm5lZCBhYm91dCB0aGUgcG9zc2liaWxpdHkgdGhh dCwgYmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBoYXZlIHN3ZXB0IHRvbw0KPiBtdWNoIHVuZGVyIHRoZSBydWcsIGtp Y2tlZCB0b28gbWFueSBpc3N1ZXMgZG93biB0aGUgcm9hZCwgb3INCj4gZmFpbGVkIHRvIGJl IHN1ZmZpY2llbnRseSBjbGVhciBhYm91dCBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCByZXF1aXJlDQo+IHNwZWNp YWwgYXR0ZW50aW9uLCBzb21ldGhpbmcgZ29lcyBzZXJpb3VzbHkgYXdyeSBhbmQgd2UgZmlu ZA0KPiBvdXJzZWx2ZXMgYmFjayBoZXJlIGluIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIHllYXJzLg0KDQpMZXQn cyBub3QgYWdhaW4gdGFsayBhYm91dCBpZ25vcmluZyBpc3N1ZXMgb3Igc3dlZXBpbmcgYW55 dGhpbmcgdW5kZXIgDQp0aGUgcnVnLCBiZWNhdXNlwqAgdGhhdCBoYXNuJ3QgaGFwcGVuZWQu wqAgRXZlcnlvbmUgaGVyZSBtdXN0IGFjY2VwdCB0aGF0IA0KdGhlcmUgYXJlIHNvbWUgaXNz dWVzIHVwb24gd2hpY2ggd2Ugd2lsbCBub3QgZmluZCBhZ3JlZW1lbnQuwqAgVGhlIA0KcXVl c3Rpb24gaXMgbm8gbW9yZSBub3IgbGVzcyB0aGFuIGhvdyB0byBhY2NvbW1vZGF0ZSB0aG9z ZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlcy4NCg0KSm9lbCdzIHRleHQgbGVhZHMgbWUgdG8gaG9wZSBpbiB0aGF0 IGRlcGFydG1lbnQsIHBlcmhhcHMgY291cGxlZCB3aXRoIA0KQ2hyaXN0aWFuJ3Mgbm90ZSwg YXMgeW91IHNheS4NCg0KRWxpb3QNCg== --------------dwsPIy9m5Y1D9NYGBHp0H9go-- --------------faPAg9Aq0j11Rf77vz7CsTAF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2ACB3A0603 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mnbT9-000EPs-AC; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 02:04:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 02:04:22 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0dd1a34c-99f5-43aa-9d20-c1671138a25a@lear.ch> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <09139CB39505536835DD1FB4@PSB> <0188fc92-f925-1e11-9d22-a13dbf1dd78e@gmail.com> <0dd1a34c-99f5-43aa-9d20-c1671138a25a@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:04:34 -0000 --On Thursday, November 18, 2021 07:25 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > John: >=20 > On 18.11.21 06:20, John C Klensin wrote: >> I am even more >> concerned about the possibility that, because we have swept >> too much under the rug, kicked too many issues down the road, >> or failed to be sufficiently clear about issues that require >> special attention, something goes seriously awry and we find >> ourselves back here in a couple of years. >=20 > Let's not again talk about ignoring issues or sweeping > anything under the rug, because=C2=A0 that hasn't = happened.=C2=A0 > Everyone here must accept that there are some issues upon > which we will not find agreement.=C2=A0 The question is no = more > nor less than how to accommodate those differences. Eliot, I would like to agree but I have heard several comments in the last couple of weeks that sound, to me, remarkably like "we can't reach agreement on that now, so let's just dump the issue on the RSWG". Especially when there is no suggestion of figuring out a way to actually require the RSWG to engage on the issue [either], that is better than "... so let's pretend it does not exist" but it is also not, IMO, figuring out how to accommodate differences. I want to stress that there may be entirely reasonable arguments for pushing some issues/discussions off onto the RSWG (and that I've heard some of them for some issues) but they are different from treating it as a handy default when we cannot reach agreement (or reach agreement quickly). > Joel's text leads me to hope in that department, perhaps > coupled with Christian's note, as you say. Agreed. thanks, john From nobody Thu Nov 18 00:15:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FFB3A05A0 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZiYsrYzDM1ze for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10F83A078D for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200b11f28bceeb98ed3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:b11f:28bc:eeb9:8ed3]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mncZS-0003V2-Vs; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:15:03 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:15:01 +0100 Cc: Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637223309;e99c67f5; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mncZS-0003V2-Vs Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:15:14 -0000 Please see below. > On 18. Nov 2021, at 03:49, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/17/21 6:21 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >> On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >>> Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not >>> listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially >>> in order of publication. It would also cause problems for >>> external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and >>> organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a >>> sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a >>> professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and >>> we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of >>> documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 >>> and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a >>> problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk >>> violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the >>> convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by >>> them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies >>> component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates >>> to it. >> That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what we = should do. >> I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the = text is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list = overlap. I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the = quip about "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact = that for the last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were = in fact the work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers = have long used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, = SIGCOM or USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now = we stick to the short formulation in RFC 8729: >> The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >> Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >> from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >> standards documents. >=20 > Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05#sec= tion-1 >=20 The second sentence proposed by Christian ("RFCs are available free of = charge to anyone via the Internet.=E2=80=9D) is written down as part of = the IETF mission statement (RFC3935): "Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on the issue. Part of this principle is our commitment to making our documents, our WG mailing lists, our attendance lists, and our meeting minutes publicly available on the Internet.=E2=80=9D I think this is also were it belongs. Having open access is important = for the IETF stream, however, the more I think about it, the less I=E2=80=99= m convinced we should write this down as a general principle for all = future streams. I mean, yes, I hope and believe that having free access = to all RFCs is a good value, however, I also won=E2=80=99t rule out that = that there are never any future use cases where publishing something = with some kind of limited access would not be of any value. Similarly this is also true for most of the text Mike proposed. When = reading it first I was mostly agreeing to many points but when thinking = about it in detail I actually found most things too restrictive when = applied to al streams and all potential future streams. I even started = yesterday an email to comment of each point and see if there is = something I could find useful to write down. However, while these points = are applicable to the IETF stream today, it wasn=E2=80=99t clear to me = that all principles should be applied to all streams and also if there = are good enough reason to say that any of these principles should be = =E2=80=9Chard=E2=80=9D to change or are in any way more important than = other considerations in the RSWG. So I ended up not sending an email, = and think we really should specify the model now (which already sneaks = for the largest possible community feedback for all the work the RSWG = publishes) and get more experience with the process to understand if any = such principles can, should, or need to be written down.=20 I recommend everybody (also those in favour) to go carefully go through = Mike's text by themselves and see if they really agree or not agree to = those things for all streams in future, and if there are any high level = principles that people think should be written down now, to ask yourself = why such a principle should have more weight than any other arguments = that might come up in the RSWG discussion for all stream. If you have identified such principle, I think it would be useful to = discuss that on list (rather than the whole text as propose by Mike) = including the reason why you think that specific principle is important. = I didn=E2=80=99t identify anything at the end that raised the bar for = me. Mirja P.S.: I=E2=80=99ve been thinking for a while about the principle of high = quality documents. Quality is also mentioned in the IETF mission = statement. Again I think high quality is more important for the IETF = stream than others, however, I=E2=80=99m not even sure if we are = reaching the bar on any stream today=E2=80=A6 also note that we are = explicitly not asking the RPC to check the content. This is the = responsibility of the streams itself. I guess the RPC does a great job = of lifting the quality quite a bit but really not sure if I would = consider all published RFC as high quality. At minimum I have to say = that there are large differences in quality (given the process, topics, = and level of review). > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 18 00:51:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1883A07F1 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:51:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZ1ir1PwbctQ for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE2EC3A07CD for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 00:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::3] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:3]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AI8pKao3293641 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:51:21 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637225482; bh=TX0R9kS5uMiWcaWiGyes+Cpmw8aJNtfMbsEeFF7ylzg=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=VSoJ1p3Zn0bBFSzUj/BVukPP1VNzd02Z5HBSM0UjjNhrGjAJhDyNU9cYoJrWNf8DO eaA73KHMTGd5PLoUjSznM8X4B2i5zA9dU/sUL0oHJ3ri4YFcpJ1OAZe93/BHHFfAzc mc41DJlVuqaS2Sudhtu2/43Nt0tYaEqrPx0qsWn4= Message-ID: <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:51:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Lb63Y6NAnnYfl376FSXptzWT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:51:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Lb63Y6NAnnYfl376FSXptzWT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CGk3BoZ0y4Hgx67QWhdLp4Mv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Joel M. 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGWFAYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMe GAf/YrDxAKP+w3qtDEoGpKCANdWvJKgIq7PJggS2MSu/8zv4J9H3iDYdGnmvRMze0pzfCtJ00zH0 aMZQL8xSwBFTxWVAU10ZdNbFIrQ2179DSgbNdoKyBtqO6gCgvMAdwN9ZX+Es+OjSf3jU9xk2SKKh TuDMD+EZUhw1p7bNh8eLijNF6c269kn4p/cQHakLt+WmutPF8Ti+9Pani8Cp+dY7h4MiuN3WWoPH l8rxdTcge/omuoV/VUXwNk7dGTwNKDSwsqtjy8QMtxtFmKwAdZtiPGnLPQlakDj0POHq+e+t4Fek U8hUsnlMk9M912mYnIhvqMD2ye+vm8Xr699BYf5zpg== =ex7x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------Lb63Y6NAnnYfl376FSXptzWT-- From nobody Thu Nov 18 01:14:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2997A3A080A; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:13:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sAUvGQwaV0kz; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 607BA3A0809; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:6cb6:b39e:c201:e0f8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D404127324E; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:13:43 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1637226824; bh=v4PcuwxRg/AN4Sc2cJwMKR7ghxxCi4yzRWIgaviVDLE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=IwuDxuS2fbNth/yhaeKrXLsb9mXsDky7+JvNayvoxkzisGVwd4MnmFFwZJZ3v6ERv yxWzKFFYoXW9sbcFPjHNqpjsq42jndE8in1JdILtEPJVESa7E9qQ1q2mVlMdSJMNaY PI+rxS3gY96EZyB82mZtaQn5I5ZEQOA644vnQ7To= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F57F8E0D-F6B5-40F7-AE47-82D14CA749AA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:13:43 +0200 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board , Brian Rosen Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0878BE8E-7613-4B64-B569-4F8F25D8A29D@eggert.org> References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= X-MailScanner-ID: D404127324E.A0381 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:13:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F57F8E0D-F6B5-40F7-AE47-82D14CA749AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-11-17, at 11:58, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst = wrote: > This reminds me of one other issue: The RSE was (and John Levine = currently is) a liaison member of IAB. If that was the case, does this = apply to the RSCE? What about liaison to the IESG? for the IETF stream, it has been operationally useful to have someone = from the RPC on the calls and email lists, to facilitate direct = discussions of any particular issues of a given doc. (Ditto for IANA.) I = don't see a need for any changes here. Whether the IAB still needs a liaison from the "RFC Editor" and whether = this is the RSCE or someone from the RPC is less clear to me under the = new structure. But I do think this is up to the IAB to decide? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_F57F8E0D-F6B5-40F7-AE47-82D14CA749AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmGWGUcACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfD+Q//XJeo5Z+1ubpBABANl1GVtbWvRMIjExtj73lRhkRfC565XeUnNQGe00r0 v+NjddB1gz8DxJq7z37jGH7ypTl/5A/zMrFLlDQCpTWo9HCVUSUKDawILcISlPPF S6E/hz8o7BrsP4IcIkS66sbT5XMk1+sqjvzSmxeRR5xo6pl/vEFOiWzt0Aqn62Gm uFXjGO8DsEiUp4wTuThTAITt0anHQrayUvhrHIyX0qPrSRNWfNS2jyd8Dp8txrxR VwoKZVr5+EPfqEMWyQNlvjhPsiuhJ5Bg+6cFzM9+c0ELmaRa+5zzunpZvFKOHtpU yb7XpLjRxBLVdVYUWowA4rP8lswtX6bNAgI1k0CG3dmq/Z/zifB0bF+SpcEZxoy6 qIC/ARXJlXC2yjVOV8Ws1dRZHbFycscn7OcmuF5eZM2Ra4R/351RdD3dPReEV7WM f+8zy0xyBmdynDJ5K5975iKju2pH25tTCGON8Stq+GFPYO7E3lAGfBvzr3iF2j7T wH63ZIpwYAQNBWdsH5rUaUQyEUp3LGwm4fpLrC5M1R2zvqjm5FHsPKuzz57k34ej eE92uLOVA1/2Knt6LxzYhMLsQ86RJe/g0IJJ0HxCCk26Z4Hz10CnJIJXqDQeB/GQ 70AR080m+ftvyWiu9YxWlIjMKGy4BhwRge1uGeEQl463iAmk+G4= =LZH/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F57F8E0D-F6B5-40F7-AE47-82D14CA749AA-- From nobody Thu Nov 18 01:39:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248FB3A083B for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:39:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NZeKw0CuuO2Z for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFEF3A085E for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 01:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200b11f28bceeb98ed3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:b11f:28bc:eeb9:8ed3]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mndrz-00029Y-MF; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:38:15 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:38:13 +0100 Cc: John C Klensin , Christian Huitema , Eric Rescorla Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1FD1A784-DB83-473A-8A3E-134B685C3A70@kuehlewind.net> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637228300;89de9fad; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mndrz-00029Y-MF Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:39:06 -0000 Actually, let me add a concrete and hopefully constructive proposal = here. Inline with Christian=E2=80=99s proposal and the text we already = have, which is this: =E2=80=9CThe Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. As described in [RFC8700], RFCs have been published continually since 1969. The overall framework for the RFC Series and the RFC Editor function are described in [RFC8729] and updated here.=E2=80=9D I think we could maybe add another paragraph that defines a bit more = what the RFC series currently is, e.g.: =E2=80=9CThe RFC Series is currently the publication venue for four = streams - the IETF stream, the IAB stream, the IRTF stream, and the = Independent Submission Editor (ISE) stream. This document establishes a = fifth stream, the Editorial stream. Documents of these streams are = intentionally published in the same publication series in order to = foster exchange among these communities and support diversity in = expression. The streams are responsible for the content of the published = document and, respectively, also to organise a review process that = ensures document quality as well as community consensus if desired. The = RFC Production Center (RPC) is responsible for the publication and = accessibility of RFCs, including technical challenges for the long-term = archival of digital publications.=E2=80=9D I think such text is sufficient and more correct than trying to = establish principles that need to apply to all streams equally and in = =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D times because I think the scope of the RFC series = if mainly defined by the scope of its streams and I believe we have = designed the new system very explicitly to consider the needs and = requirements of all streams. Mirja > On 18. Nov 2021, at 09:15, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Please see below. >=20 >> On 18. Nov 2021, at 03:49, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >>=20 >> On 11/17/21 6:21 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >>>> Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not >>>> listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially >>>> in order of publication. It would also cause problems for >>>> external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and >>>> organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a >>>> sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a >>>> professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and >>>> we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of >>>> documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 >>>> and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a >>>> problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk >>>> violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the >>>> convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by >>>> them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies >>>> component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates >>>> to it. >>> That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what = we should do. >>> I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the = text is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list = overlap. I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the = quip about "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact = that for the last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were = in fact the work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers = have long used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, = SIGCOM or USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now = we stick to the short formulation in RFC 8729: >>> The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >>> Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >>> from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >>> standards documents. >>=20 >> Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: >>=20 >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05#sec= tion-1 >>=20 >=20 > The second sentence proposed by Christian ("RFCs are available free of = charge to anyone via the Internet.=E2=80=9D) is written down as part of = the IETF mission statement (RFC3935): >=20 > "Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, > know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on = the > issue. Part of this principle is our commitment to making our > documents, our WG mailing lists, our attendance lists, and our > meeting minutes publicly available on the Internet.=E2=80=9D >=20 > I think this is also were it belongs. Having open access is important = for the IETF stream, however, the more I think about it, the less I=E2=80=99= m convinced we should write this down as a general principle for all = future streams. I mean, yes, I hope and believe that having free access = to all RFCs is a good value, however, I also won=E2=80=99t rule out that = that there are never any future use cases where publishing something = with some kind of limited access would not be of any value. >=20 > Similarly this is also true for most of the text Mike proposed. When = reading it first I was mostly agreeing to many points but when thinking = about it in detail I actually found most things too restrictive when = applied to al streams and all potential future streams. I even started = yesterday an email to comment of each point and see if there is = something I could find useful to write down. However, while these points = are applicable to the IETF stream today, it wasn=E2=80=99t clear to me = that all principles should be applied to all streams and also if there = are good enough reason to say that any of these principles should be = =E2=80=9Chard=E2=80=9D to change or are in any way more important than = other considerations in the RSWG. So I ended up not sending an email, = and think we really should specify the model now (which already sneaks = for the largest possible community feedback for all the work the RSWG = publishes) and get more experience with the process to understand if any = such principles can, should, or need to be written down.=20 >=20 > I recommend everybody (also those in favour) to go carefully go = through Mike's text by themselves and see if they really agree or not = agree to those things for all streams in future, and if there are any = high level principles that people think should be written down now, to = ask yourself why such a principle should have more weight than any other = arguments that might come up in the RSWG discussion for all stream. >=20 > If you have identified such principle, I think it would be useful to = discuss that on list (rather than the whole text as propose by Mike) = including the reason why you think that specific principle is important. = I didn=E2=80=99t identify anything at the end that raised the bar for = me. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 > P.S.: I=E2=80=99ve been thinking for a while about the principle of = high quality documents. Quality is also mentioned in the IETF mission = statement. Again I think high quality is more important for the IETF = stream than others, however, I=E2=80=99m not even sure if we are = reaching the bar on any stream today=E2=80=A6 also note that we are = explicitly not asking the RPC to check the content. This is the = responsibility of the streams itself. I guess the RPC does a great job = of lifting the quality quite a bit but really not sure if I would = consider all published RFC as high quality. At minimum I have to say = that there are large differences in quality (given the process, topics, = and level of review). >=20 >=20 >> Peter >>=20 >> --=20 >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 18 02:02:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4066F3A0881; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 02:02:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637229765; bh=uzQMxPiupGFbDMkIER2qeZr0KwoPkXdp53PUj6EC/80=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=RZGT8UfKjLm7/oQRhXFPVRYjfe7xm+ato1gIIblYxnCN5RVRl8ldh3admERzAXNmm N/syZ688orPS/0WXMJV4XdiN6mYzgrGAivT7tDvNkkiGPC4FkOBetekaCvPE3o+Ohe gnbJTcgPAhVzQ0NtPLgUce80CqC1ApjarJe53Vsk= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:02:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Lars Eggert Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <0878BE8E-7613-4B64-B569-4F8F25D8A29D@eggert.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <0878BE8E-7613-4B64-B569-4F8F25D8A29D@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------T0UKF0fQUbFuQgXWLs9qLSbZ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:02:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------T0UKF0fQUbFuQgXWLs9qLSbZ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BuWS7oL50aqVIAbfQCRAHBGj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Lars Eggert Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GmXTuynb0pUk for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2DB63A0798 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hw1Ht49V9z1nsQW; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:44:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637243082; bh=2AMcdtKoUokKH/doDFBhLcD0hM774tq2kruEev+WWPw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=juhESlUyKPS48dSo8KiT4qigUxENKVOWqIWUrVHeVbqhIbL+HNw4zNZ1/cgapLAtk j2DOzdCFK2ipT/XtPosc55Ta+GgiL67B4L8q6I8suuoEGdr3o5NYWWZcL+h4NXadnm PHxzJsBFW137zQPsCRn13MuCzhv4sH7mTszses9o= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hw1Hs6d3mz1ntSp; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 05:44:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9bbf82b0-d369-505e-5418-a0f2f70b98a7@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:44:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:44:47 -0000 My suggestion is that the text I provided, or text along those lines, become the opening of the section on principles. That the principles themselves not refer to the approach to modification. As for what the content of the principles would be, I would start with Mike's list. We can add or subtract from there. The primary objection I was seeing was to the proposed modification process. So I am trying to see if there is something in between that we can live with. Yours, Joel On 11/17/2021 10:37 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Just for clarity - is that proposal a complete replacement, or to be prepended to Mike's proposed list? > > > >> On 18 Nov 2021, at 2:27 pm, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already have text that says that the RSAB members are expected to watch out for harm to the long term health of the series. >> This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get out of having these principles in the document, and what mechanisms we might use to achieve it. So I am now wondering if a slightly different approach to the sensitivity of the principles might help; instead of pointing to the IAB and IESG. >> (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents of having principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the below.): >> >> The following principles are understood to be important to >> the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >> either change these principles, or significantly change the >> way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >> particular attention to >> a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >> of the RFC series; and >> b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >> comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series >> >> ? >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Thu Nov 18 06:28:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EA73A07EF for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnArAR908XIx for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D932E3A07ED for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id x9so6606092ilu.6 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:27:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pI7/d9tg/lpPeL9ayWwctOQhSw3AQmyOOo3Ew185aUU=; b=Pn/TUCFwc+T09OSBQe489V7moXfCi0arMRhTge//dWVcOHgOZb0HeQsL42DAUja4Y7 An7RrzRIqd4MRIR3H0B94wI643c3hVBgDxdSIonXN/fYASOLBlEPa4rPPS9D7/U0wt64 yVzWTVyUm5mZi6qFKHcnRReOYyMw3+WPqyPYHii4rdGAW2tcBs2D097Hs3MDI9D7cA00 KjQZkpWQGI80t6OgM9kH8xY8JTWPMbLiryDt39i5tC/Auc+uNW4+7A514eTlV1qdfOUr ZCRd3P5aRyIqz2eAHIXd98A+YM0TcB9tD1mSDU1IM4R5IycT7MzpdiQNwD0hx2c08+or V76g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pI7/d9tg/lpPeL9ayWwctOQhSw3AQmyOOo3Ew185aUU=; b=l6N/7/QXqgUxrmhpv5Kw0Zfy71afNA1rHpI0fUP19Ss6+gN+38zeDsuGJFqOsWG08V NvRIF71bHgyA06gq0/6vSE1P7/9fAlZKePZt4iFB2euQ7BL+PsUtojMeSxKyiWyv0ecq aSA1GH9tjj9cRPINWkPN1W9na57fvtcEBPRSAVDMbHdCApy32K5KnrDS8U9bXnsIo1Yt YVU7eHE5/bYGaMqIOyjaM+kdAUB666l7PSu72SdRuXQ15ujIhrMixnKVTZOji/sHW09e u/ikQgPkJqz3CSdQ436GS5a3lq43Yo5FtaqGYpZyHC4bZXQE/g8DjWU4xqtbZylj8Vbf P4rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iu2+7MDzJo+e1/aQXuklZU43QGroDKjuP7J7wLTaekk9O9F5f hD93RXXs9VZT7dpC7ZfumtsvoIwCN2O9W+Hyx+aUdBpzrAY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVQe/8tLzukm/ngEFlRAd3ZRQOOx/IeQhAJsQVSRwL/YaUNivE95XNQNONqAGwuJs0G31dx53cqkzhlLiknx4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:152a:: with SMTP id i10mr7556237ilu.10.1637245677152; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:27:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> <9bbf82b0-d369-505e-5418-a0f2f70b98a7@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9bbf82b0-d369-505e-5418-a0f2f70b98a7@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 06:27:20 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Mark Nottingham , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff429505d110f60e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:28:03 -0000 --000000000000ff429505d110f60e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:44 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > My suggestion is that the text I provided, or text along those lines, > become the opening of the section on principles. That the principles > themselves not refer to the approach to modification. > As for what the content of the principles would be, I would start with > Mike's list. We can add or subtract from there. > > The primary objection I was seeing was to the proposed modification > process. So I am trying to see if there is something in between that we > can live with. > Just to clarify, my objection is *both* to the proposed modification process *and* to much of the text in Mike's proposal, so this would not address my concern. -Ekr Yours, > Joel > > On 11/17/2021 10:37 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Just for clarity - is that proposal a complete replacement, or to be > prepended to Mike's proposed list? > > > > > > > >> On 18 Nov 2021, at 2:27 pm, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >> > >> EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already have text > that says that the RSAB members are expected to watch out for harm to the > long term health of the series. > >> This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get out of > having these principles in the document, and what mechanisms we might use > to achieve it. So I am now wondering if a slightly different approach to > the sensitivity of the principles might help; instead of pointing to the > IAB and IESG. > >> (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents of having > principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the below.): > >> > >> The following principles are understood to be important to > >> the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that > >> either change these principles, or significantly change the > >> way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay > >> particular attention to > >> a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health > >> of the RFC series; and > >> b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and > >> comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > >> > >> ? > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> -- > >> Rfced-future mailing list > >> Rfced-future@iab.org > >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > -- > > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000ff429505d110f60e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:44 AM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
My= suggestion is that the text I provided, or text along those lines,
become the opening of the section on principles.=C2=A0 That the principles =
themselves not refer to the approach to modification.
As for what the content of the principles would be, I would start with
Mike's list.=C2=A0 We can add or subtract from there.

The primary objection I was seeing was to the proposed modification
process.=C2=A0 So I am trying to see if there is something in between that = we
can live with.



Yours,
Joel

On 11/17/2021 10:37 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> Just for clarity - is that proposal a complete replacement, or to be p= repended to Mike's proposed list?
>
>
>
>> On 18 Nov 2021, at 2:27 pm, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: >>
>> EKR correctly pointed out in a response to me that we already have= text that says that the RSAB members are expected to watch out for harm to= the long term health of the series.
>> This caused me to try to think through what I am trying to get out= of having these principles in the document, and what mechanisms we might u= se to achieve it.=C2=A0 So I am now wondering if a slightly different appro= ach to the sensitivity of the principles might help; instead of pointing to= the IAB and IESG.
>> (Side note: I have not talked to any of the other proponents of ha= ving principles, and I have not tried to wordsmith the below.):
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The following principles are understood to be i= mportant to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the RFC series.=C2=A0 When reviewing documents = from the RSWG that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0either change these principles, or significantl= y change the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0way they are realized, the RSAB members are exp= ected to pay
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular attention to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a) whether the changes adversely affect the lon= g term health
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the RFC series; and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) whether the changes have received sufficient= review and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comment in the larger community a= ffected by the RFC Series
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> --
>> Rfced-future mailing list
>> Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfce= d-future
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/
>

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
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"rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] What, if not these Thread-Index: AQHX2ri6G4Sg1BrMtkGcK8eWXoVVBKwGloOAgAGuRgCAAAR3gIAABeaAgABgFgCAAAGJgIAAA8OAgACkJYA= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:17:48 +0000 Message-ID: <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21111400 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: 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14:51:00 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Af7N6BlR09eRxPKY8YfgKb32" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8PR04CA0017.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:110::27) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:51:19 -0000 --------------Af7N6BlR09eRxPKY8YfgKb32 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ITD0VDBxB9yXDbMIy0QHatYA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> --------------ITD0VDBxB9yXDbMIy0QHatYA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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--------------Af7N6BlR09eRxPKY8YfgKb32 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGWaFQFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qz +Q/8DWaYY5a5E5E8+fWsXdI92YBE6ScSOfhZIpU4vkpS7YsFpfb2M1Ty32k0m43boVeFo2ElzW8Z bVZubq2S+HyN0deCdbAHtOwqlRhmAkIhN4UZPzXb/z01PG0V4MmBe9YwhwdL5IvczvUp9pgkajjF 7771ILObCV35I3ZbUm57cmZ+DuO4LYHl0kepdSGndmSZhovj2X4edAkrjAH8Uv6zBUgi2qNANamR 9ymbeCHJjb1xTPcjpKeqFyQ3qneMj1ruaAQDgsyPv3J6xxwePxQaUNdw9t6P7TIj6XPbiXSUzcaI nf4QnlNjjuzYIInmi5gi6q8JJvZD4kgBeRAHJviLNyHxfkV/dmu5QTF+7n4AUm9MzYc+et1fsLd8 jbFzHABZ1ofaafR4qPYzAB8SvqhSEk01DPFLcXGDn1gynRl8XnJpcvnAZxtJ0XHe1tNELp4op9F6 qqAz0scNgVh40onCq+tb35JrRWHoAy5euaZQMSanzQLKqI8E2Pew6p99NGU8oL8E7ZDMQQfUzSTg OeAOvK+kTkPZHA9WDKmS2NqmJXiMNB6E9Lewe/cLS+thV//Qk3pgOzEKQzbDEjLp3o95EBl3geST 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(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2D9D3A0833 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee728b200b11f28bceeb98ed3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e728:b200:b11f:28bc:eeb9:8ed3]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mnizn-000861-6c; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:06:39 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:06:38 +0100 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637248004;d7cb6bc8; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mnizn-000861-6c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:06:49 -0000 Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. > On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were = included. >>> It really would help me at least understand your objections (because >>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >> I don't think that's a valid criticism. You can say "these shouldn't >> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed" >> isn't really responding to the first issue. >=20 > Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others > don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, > and some example of how such text might cause a problem for > some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at > least understand that better. >=20 > I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I > think help the discussion. >=20 > To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some > RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" > but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought > never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess > apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not > done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't > think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) My point was rather that I think it=E2=80=99s a per-stream decision and = I don=E2=80=99t really see a point in restricting us this way on a = per-series basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to = always try to have open access to all RFCs). >=20 > Cheers, > S. > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 18 07:18:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88B43A087B for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:18:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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<33715a84-e4be-de8b-c4dd-f42c3a53fdd2@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:15:43 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------zB0j9OuVUVttuhI74WOjypUr" 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:18:06 -0000 --------------zB0j9OuVUVttuhI74WOjypUr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------JhjR8bgCZa0P0vxgBfjUBR97"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Joel Halpern Direct , Tommy Pauly Message-ID: <33715a84-e4be-de8b-c4dd-f42c3a53fdd2@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: 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Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:19:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Tommy Pauly References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> From: Joel Halpern Direct In-Reply-To: <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:20:01 -0000 Mirja, I think that free access to RFCs is an RFC series decision and not a stream decision. Yours, Joel On 11/18/2021 10:06 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. > >> On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were included. >>>> It really would help me at least understand your objections (because >>>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >>> I don't think that's a valid criticism. You can say "these shouldn't >>> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed" >>> isn't really responding to the first issue. >> >> Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others >> don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, >> and some example of how such text might cause a problem for >> some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at >> least understand that better. >> >> I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I >> think help the discussion. >> >> To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some >> RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" >> but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought >> never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess >> apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not >> done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't >> think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) > > My point was rather that I think it’s a per-stream decision and I don’t really see a point in restricting us this way on a per-series basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to always try to have open access to all RFCs). > >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > From nobody Thu Nov 18 11:57:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE383A03F7; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VjyKREMVTLrX; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7C523A0A0B; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id j6-20020a17090a588600b001a78a5ce46aso9168259pji.0; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=j/bF7zqjcjrI7DjFkvx7G1H/SIbyjf6WJ9IvkoP03GM=; b=P1UF5kBFeYqSiwGXSgf8HIt5QZjhSWNNQScdn9zvbFm6JXArZMLrHQbXt2hhQfh6PI ue5dg6AG95zLCYeKrfwlE3vgRE5N2rDb1KnWnSONsocuczW+UZ6K5nAJ3d8j35jR/H7B 3bxSctjSp+v0iIPUDfA68geyMSjKSDBWn5w5fRLqtC1uR3O9V29r8jAnlKiI2fGp5D50 LjUizVrXJGcL84Gn6N75SaWCnTGh3AF/rOb5PjN3qWaVUPx3RUd4g0RqdmEbjSucoFhO nI0u3p9E/WuM6IJDr9iOtP9WW/R5E4s0qp2JQO73XJVLdY2CvMNHyEpOJXxCBS+jBQF8 qQKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j/bF7zqjcjrI7DjFkvx7G1H/SIbyjf6WJ9IvkoP03GM=; b=fyoMloLH7PedTb58OVFGMAOdj8HX1lsTh3NHnqBN5s1NuJ8AHrr14EoDooENwYTxsf 4EKS7USoPucyBRaqyOVZUbaMn7kiUpO/OzU/Qp5+y37imA6NqnZl2MjncPKgfdW2p9Nk U/7k/PyoBe8zRmCqUonXObcVR+/Ug0JG4wPsLD1/UWJ6aqvkncKwoVU2vBN5kRzzhX7O aluhnYOWXStJhQ36McyIXYFJ5t2ySozQsUzyNLkx5760zxGc7I6FAwFCTrTES4Nd9UN8 TRT+7mWHCjEJW2IrOPSXXtqZGgLRMZ/CFLvhwMS00BWsQeCCASRUW1advqtzA+a4q1QU 66zA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530BpKWyUEhAFDYKCOKk1wBWhrJbi56OuZPRC1X29MR0SX+jbNML hGWmdOaGyuOstgsF1nD4YMxywC2SCa+1CQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhk+MAfQ4Qh38hVJX/JsqdgjHeuboTRTuYnG8eeAK2Fdue2swVSrmAZ7BPetyXdbfqbu9c2A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8302:b0:143:6e5f:a4a0 with SMTP id bd2-20020a170902830200b001436e5fa4a0mr69144642plb.20.1637265431641; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id oc10sm9900575pjb.26.2021.11.18.11.57.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:57:11 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , Lars Eggert Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Internet Architecture Board References: <28311490-063f-8f64-5e8e-82aebeb26708@lear.ch> <8000e5e2-e3ff-0e18-f703-5e107e814024@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <64123d99-03fd-1527-54c7-963f6fc71574@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <0878BE8E-7613-4B64-B569-4F8F25D8A29D@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:57:06 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] **Program Last CALL: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-05** Ends 5 Nov 2021 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:57:17 -0000 On 18-Nov-21 22:13, Lars Eggert wrote: =2E.. > Whether the IAB still needs a liaison from the "RFC Editor" and whether=20 =3D > this is the RSCE or someone from the RPC is less clear to me under the = =3D > new structure. But I do think this is up to the IAB to decide? True, but they should decide soon, because it's part of the proposed IAB charter update (new version very soon now as Lars has requested). On 18-Nov-21 23:02, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Lars, >=20 > As usual, you have stated things practically.=C2=A0 It is important to > understand the purpose of the liaison, whether it should come from the > RPC, the RSCE, or the RSWG/RSAB.=C2=A0 One way to consider the latter i= s that > the RSAB member for the stream really is intended to serve this functio= n. Not really. That person is *from* the IAB, and the liaison member of the IAB is *from* the RFC Editor function. Two different roles. Brian From nobody Thu Nov 18 12:05:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@iab.org Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6073A0A11; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:05:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.40.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163726591241.7419.1161638073397786026@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:05:12 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification - draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:05:18 -0000 A new version (-04) has been submitted for draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.txt https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.html The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/ Diff from previous version: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04 IETF Secretariat. 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c6sm417141pfd.114.2021.11.18.12.14.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:14:29 -0800 (PST) References: <163726591232.7419.7046575388469070759@ietfa.amsl.com> To: rfced-future@iab.org From: Brian E Carpenter X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <163726591232.7419.7046575388469070759@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:14:26 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <163726591232.7419.7046575388469070759@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:14:37 -0000 (1) As discussed recently, s/RFC Editor/RFC Editor model/ (2) As Lars asked me, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model becomes a normative reference (actually a downref) to synchronize publication. Brian -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.txt Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:05:12 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model Author : Brian E. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2021-11-18 Abstract: This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced- model). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-04 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Thu Nov 18 13:03:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8EE3A044D for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ElgUqiziNTNU for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E09263A043F for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id g18so7271386pfk.5 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=siG6eDfPlGK6GSMFmYRSqDJYakhJ1v19U95SoOF39wk=; b=AnfiFKtviQ0krB48JzOLBrvmbxoJb6MjDJL4BFL6PSCaYHg1SRJxsL3Z9vFsjNdvYk hSnjwSvC9R5WLeOFmFr8EkI2Gy0Ub/mQoiZ/o2s+LTjwhBSEsmxOMsOIocntD8y15eMq ckGkcXLL2DiwiIl1fNyxQ5EX31nX3t3VIt0NR8nnSapt8TgVmU5ge31jdgzjDfYhIeB8 RWBHX0wv/HCmWet0m6DhItABCteZRu97y4disXjv9FEVr0ZT1VXOGiFfrkT31UC4IrMO mBWRx3iWWkU1+/W0rygeUmJfbVw/JVc9zrEJmhy3ShHu5bt+x3JQPnn47q3VamNeYazO eNNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=siG6eDfPlGK6GSMFmYRSqDJYakhJ1v19U95SoOF39wk=; b=IDh3qCCUURzijrhwKwXz266JVCtpKNHvXx6F1off1+f0AoBssQPsgAl66CF0K0J7cm mLiHKLQ/Om9i/H5b1e/UmL/4mekXIjudUOVaU+z1VII6XghKv4i44JJnlQNN74ji3Fus eauFB113DBEiOsb0rl5pqlBjhZwUGwb6X5j9TYphM7KrVdQPBnu49G6h66wdshrSgkLo FDnMBQNLiE4byLCbBgZA5KZ25Ktxz1kFc8WVHQwJxQTYb+RfyWLJuZVXya16jyh27Us4 /o/kepdR1iLKmyBzUmTz3iu+638lNgQrrlRgPELyCP+2pvPHe89QHAyyu8GiLBItgVLW od3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530F3bozhQzGjqUnnoRhEGY98/QyGiBZTrCEZkJYIADEie0tvUK3 dpX+oNprwBgGFkuDNKG6DoE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxWfPSaSkoYk0Z4dd2dYKVzz1KFVOSus1m/2HHoFi2JpECFLJZY8R9zo4jFzDxjUgE+jsLYVA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2155:: with SMTP id s21mr13483654pgm.20.1637269394937; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o134sm492586pfg.1.2021.11.18.13.03.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Mark Nottingham References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> <9bbf82b0-d369-505e-5418-a0f2f70b98a7@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <68d59eaf-d645-da90-0a53-833c35eca721@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:03:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:03:21 -0000 On 19-Nov-21 03:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:44 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >=20 > My suggestion is that the text I provided, or text along those line= s, > become the opening of the section on principles.=C2=A0 That the pri= nciples > themselves not refer to the approach to modification. > As for what the content of the principles would be, I would start w= ith > Mike's list.=C2=A0 We can add or subtract from there. >=20 > The primary objection I was seeing was to the proposed modification= > process.=C2=A0 So I am trying to see if there is something in betwe= en that we > can live with. >=20 >=20 > Just to clarify, my objection is *both* to the proposed modification pr= ocess To be clear: do you object to: > the RSAB members are expected to pay > particular attention to > a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health > of the RFC series; and > b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and > comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series=20 and if so, why? > *and* to much of the text in Mike's proposal Please be specific, line by line. You can't just hand wave. Regards Brian From nobody Thu Nov 18 13:24:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F11F3A0A9C for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nf76QwLpA9xC for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D25653A0A9B for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id i9so2522408ilu.1 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OJWmWX4gShgUnLe8fSA2Wy0AhJiqh4hd6h+N1E2Noyc=; b=uzXQYdX6l3uUpcbT5j4MVt2KM92cJ9DJj3O2lzFJByrr1HvA50VpOlr7TObz5J9fsy ZPw6hUq5VtNQWqsteEriW2bAebcYa0gVae1xEbQez9n1lEXLWpxw8YLJqdxEFGwGYPcj VxU8HeLNrHUYDFNHyJLLXxnOxDqNYudXAU/YPwPmUqUtFbaUtAfdIZJuwvBsrNyeTdxG che90Inm31/uQbcyys6GXK7wJK+15czxayAJiuMZnKAjbyW1GQV0eKI9sq34W70hcHHD KH6ohCZl9Qb30TsnnFGrESpNJ1IyNEQYX34xkfmwizclzOJX1bH8HrjHJMe+fNn17bUx 60Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OJWmWX4gShgUnLe8fSA2Wy0AhJiqh4hd6h+N1E2Noyc=; b=oSi42fjqp9m52mV8VGuA0MKw2HwcXFL1613Xy6ZGNGtrY1CH1PFbXYFQcjFIpBlIId eAdKjL83k6C3y8M3pU0M8bQcqA5BZeciY0QY1xRSEd2mhse+Tn8FvJtrMkwu3jHNRDJP 4iZd6xmiBziiIKrFheQ2KAcjR7/KDozZ1ER3nXEaW1AXIGhacVGzsOrdmDcqYFoLQKT2 XNJfzI1ukWAl7GqmS51eHmJiRpJMbusgX+XKAqkQe35U8YvY9SzJBjVCzKh3pmAWqL1q LQRva0DRjiqIXJo4fSqCW9C0OydI3Ov8EGA9ISkJzTrd9QmSwxQKSBX52fArh9XxnXSZ g5Rw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530N20AltGfAhkm7L5pKR5YdL2jCh8LPppYPbVfYjPR9UwMErQxe S4YDHvIuv36INbsuyj38Q/VbjycCUh7Vg73JlBeDiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2j/qCNmL8KQi9lL/JBXlkZm9TW/UjVru2RqMz8J1UX7uWRzA29yf+wMq2qz+rzKf76Xcu+5hwrhBWVSK6QqQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c051:: with SMTP id o17mr1428053ilf.276.1637270639386; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:23:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <223CF2FD-8435-411F-9F2A-727A1159F0B3@mnot.net> <9bbf82b0-d369-505e-5418-a0f2f70b98a7@joelhalpern.com> <68d59eaf-d645-da90-0a53-833c35eca721@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68d59eaf-d645-da90-0a53-833c35eca721@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:23:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" , Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dcb44a05d116c611" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:24:06 -0000 --000000000000dcb44a05d116c611 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 1:03 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 19-Nov-21 03:27, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:44 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > My suggestion is that the text I provided, or text along those lines, > > become the opening of the section on principles. That the principles > > themselves not refer to the approach to modification. > > As for what the content of the principles would be, I would start > with > > Mike's list. We can add or subtract from there. > > > > The primary objection I was seeing was to the proposed modification > > process. So I am trying to see if there is something in between > that we > > can live with. > > > > > > Just to clarify, my objection is *both* to the proposed modification > process > To be clear: do you object to: > > > the RSAB members are expected to pay > > particular attention to > > a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health > > of the RFC series; and > > b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and > > comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > > and if so, why? > This text on its own doesn't seem particularly problematic. The question is what its referents are. > > *and* to much of the text in Mike's proposal > > Please be specific, line by line. You can't just hand wave. > I'm not just handwaving. I've provided several examples of pieces I object to. However, given that I don't think this text should exist at all, I also do not propose to go through the entire thing in an attempt to find some unobjectionable parts. Once the RSWG is properly formed, if people want to try to form a principles doc, then that process will be appropriate, but at the moment it's a distraction. -Ekr > Regards > Brian > > --000000000000dcb44a05d116c611 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 1:03 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19-Nov-21 03:27, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:44 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com= >> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My suggestion is that the text I provided, or text = along those lines,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0become the opening of the section on principles.=C2= =A0 That the principles
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0themselves not refer to the approach to modificatio= n.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As for what the content of the principles would be,= I would start with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mike's list.=C2=A0 We can add or subtract from = there.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary objection I was seeing was to the propo= sed modification
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0process.=C2=A0 So I am trying to see if there is so= mething in between that we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can live with.
>
>
> Just to clarify, my objection is *both* to the proposed modification p= rocess
To be clear: do you object to:

>=C2=A0 the RSAB members are expected to pay
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular attention to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a) whether the changes adversely affect the long te= rm health
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the RFC series; and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) whether the changes have received sufficient rev= iew and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comment in the larger community affec= ted by the RFC Series

and if so, why?

This text on its own do= esn't seem particularly problematic. The question is what its
referents are.

=C2=A0
> *and* to much of the text in Mike's proposal

Please be specific, line by line. You can't just hand wave.

I'm not just handwaving. I've provided sev= eral examples of pieces I object to. However,
given that I don= 9;t think this text should exist at all, I also do not propose to go throug= h
the entire thing in an attempt to find some unobjectionable par= ts. Once the RSWG is
properly formed, if people want to try to fo= rm a principles doc, then that process
will be appropriate, but a= t the moment it's a distraction.

-Ekr


Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

--000000000000dcb44a05d116c611-- From nobody Thu Nov 18 13:24:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7733A0AA0 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=o91r4ebG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=D39RXpUX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Cwb5X0-iWdQ for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACF2E3A0AA7 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE1B5C0105; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:24:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:references:to:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=Z xzsEZqu41UfAhGWCCwhPJJQSy1a1mFzgMdLLaVFuJo=; b=o91r4ebGSlbcRA9Bu XA58UisGaumoC+DeHS55x2rYD+VEFubbpbta00V9k9XXRmfgiaSfNhyG/lzH4g3u qkAh1ia7Y8F8Ib/gYXMUNlotIkjTlxgIHIgcSmYO3tZpO/ugv1FAXrLqfgfgI462 Wiw/R2e2N3G8tsvsPgVza8aap86RJZMfBaKLUkF4CfduIkcrDqnjLh4J+yCez7pA xnkJHhZkhQsm+7H0FfMayOW86ozZ23TXoqcZDPzYgVANpY8Z09MPAfKRidZXfy7x JHwqtPJsefCwzeWrg3RR0t9g6veAy9gTWceyscnBsCxmLBkdLjyotNAbbc6qoXtq lUnRg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ZxzsEZqu41UfAhGWCCwhPJJQSy1a1mFzgMdLLaVFu Jo=; b=D39RXpUXNAahvo8e/JLBBOvaEJnfn73QYLjFVC8zGQBGZgaFIag4f2+Pj +rbCA2dJBbnf6u+6bLZJOWdvfPlLXBniGbG6HcnBo+mt+mMomADSOIZmN1GVhdTJ nrg7SUgGbIWmRUcHH5R7lO8OmmxK3wuDbKxAc/aZZVuIxjaEMB/qjGDtb25/a/kd 9rgYAyQikzKgNw1JL+iazyFVv2F7d1KipxGjaAZV7BZ+atSL1SWXipQLA6EcZyd1 qfiEQYzai5lvwOgvc+xEj2+6t2+GykCID5CQmsHgjSK+fbr5JHo+gpDzL2N9/xUt whNkWjD4m/6nNoM0mZkfR+GiVMquA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfeeigddugeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfufhfvhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeetgedtgfefheelte eiheevledtieetveefffdtheekhffhledtleefledtgfeigeenucffohhmrghinhepihgv thhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:24:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <459db323-bec5-c957-f59b-ecf1fbbf01d5@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 14:24:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 References: <163727047653.22951.17102934516800585523@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <163727047653.22951.17102934516800585523@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <163727047653.22951.17102934516800585523@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:24:14 -0000 Hi all, I've just submitted version -06 of our Internet-Draft, addressing as many of the open issues as I could. Please take a look and let me know if I've missed anything. Peter -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:21:16 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Revision: 06 Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) Document date: 2021-11-18 Group: iab Pages: 27 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 Abstract: This document specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model. The model defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. Policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Nov 18 16:09:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4D53A0C09 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:09:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=WBlLNLj9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fEtrM0hD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hv2ZLQZbam7S for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87D923A0C08 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D1C5C0117; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:09:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=I QNDB8RJD6mkAgB9ZDGnD1WFnb08ez+r2y+v34Mxbj8=; b=WBlLNLj97ASddC2ba XQ4kv2C7ieMF88FWVk9coC/QA31MrKkwRZeiLrV8Hj+PpZp/y1ZLnEBjuGcLjfSZ haJ7c8DOEc2wJAJXwQt5FuV+Iz80LDjIgBF/fJHM1uYPsZU9YZUiKkSKG0A5oTH6 HirpV4IJAgUTmF0lRuYeHEWIvBNxUMx/WpTcNabkEHaz2GBbNPsbMIYMAkyG6Pkh tkzOxCRNqPNPVblzNZVG46cKotBYEyZSui/Gf49COIUAswnsId1PUBLNkkAF59HB 8tsDhPU+y1TMiQJXjFKUPksHbi1YZPr+vkwA10w4FpLT5Q71R4go+tVXbixytI/5 M+EHw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IQNDB8RJD6mkAgB9ZDGnD1WFnb08ez+r2y+v34Mxb j8=; b=fEtrM0hD+hILyt/wjUcjG7f39OjPfKaIHRAUVLm2n+BlMCDT1lHMuO1pY UbGKfz7jQbWO+1Wi3lR0vNKmKUPrd8mz+zFD4yajXAXUiYwKJ3SXxcle9aUkT9iE uK2N/5WYuZPh0t81jubvdmWvPIN5Rfwi/Fcqa42h5xUyDUM/pl8A/D1p56l6S0ee RGpeQ68Kmm1uDYxKHuvyh3FwJuvZYb4dPjlTSW9oeTR8l8YoAWISNSuBN9zV64UD WUv2U4CryIMefJxNk2vSw4arkyy1mmvXeT/Se+wh0KxDsprfhAb3NGhVNuJevHk9 GIjWu+43RcYRVvDwHwH9fjClCFuMA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrfeejgddukecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepkeduvdeljeegtefhveekhfdtveekleevkeefgeeludeihfdugedvieeuffdttdfh necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgv th X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:09:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:09:36 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 00:09:46 -0000 FWIW - > On 18 Nov 2021, at 7:51 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Thank you Joel. >=20 > You have placed a concrete proposal on the table. >=20 > On 18.11.21 04:27, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>=20 >> The following principles are understood to be important to >> the RFC series. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >> either change these principles, or significantly change the >> way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >> particular attention to >> a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >> of the RFC series; and >> b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >> comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series=20 >=20 > Is this text a reasonable basis for discussion? It provides what = could be described as extraordinary review, but perhaps not TOO = extraordinary. =20 As far as the change process issue goes, I have no issue with this text. = However... > It requires a starter list of principles. Some of those principles are = already stated in the document. I suspect we could incorporate one or = two more from Mike's list (I doubt that anyone would object, for = instance, to accessibility showing up). I recognize that there is some = concern abut having ANY principle in the draft, but this would be a = compromise. I (and I suspect others) haven't thought deeply about either Mike's list = or what principles I'd propose because we haven't yet gained consensus = to include principles in the draft. That is a conscious decision that we = should make before talking about their content.=20 As I argued earlier,[1] defining principles for the series aren't a good = fit for this body. We're supposed to be coming up with a process to = create policy, not guidance for that policy itself. The RSWG has better = oversight than this body, in that it has multiple layers and doesn't = depend on a frankly fragile agreement in the community to function. I = also would like to get this work done and move on, and I suspect = establishing principles worthy of the series is going to take at least = several months. If -- despite all of that -- we gain consensus to establish principles, = we need to do so properly. To me, that means that the Chairs should make a call for proposed = principles -- not privileging Mike's list as a de facto starting point. = We need to create an issue per principle and discuss them separately, = not as a job lot, and only those that gain consensus should be included. = If folks want to withhold consensus on the entire document because their = favoured principle didn't make it in, we'll have to cross that bridge = when we get to it. Underlying all of this -- I think we can all agree that principles = should be robust over time, and reflect the experience and wisdom we've = managed to gather. They cannot be tacked on at the last minute.=20 Cheers, 1. = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/7YIKkSFWgo8eSWraf3LCmNh= cFzY -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 18 16:25:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CC33A005C for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXOP2gUEBw1s for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5A743A0038 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id b11so6726189pld.12 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gijq9Bdcp7WCmUnBakZ6yGQQ8txDW4rl3urLmUhS7ZU=; b=gItlPMT5kvHDD+7yZ+OOuHgwE21KBK9RjbrnkzFNndX7Ofax48zeA6XyM9WIImAs2Q 9kmgoIovDQ8hVONMM3HJHgnblpcTKp4hkDTUC7CnTmnHqBiL5rac/zRvSj6BdEITCSBf JT8Zi+zBIAHpdcqXKszBQlHt9W+B+gxz5MpZy5L9EFkPz+K3dNitmQsqCJi3U86K1rwt nmyqlmgzGXw1W7c/hVNe67XIjvQGqyQZHk2cqbxmD0kJUZD4sOFQSjBQR08dXqX/ZVWy f+/mdSx3l9CP5VziA2hDUMQe7+5oplXObLK6EVAAfs3RxJQputvERRdI/ZOt+IR86jLd i43Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gijq9Bdcp7WCmUnBakZ6yGQQ8txDW4rl3urLmUhS7ZU=; b=mSuCaqEGSgS3n7pwWmL9+0khn1sh/HUffYqQtuQmMiIjUfnGbs/LpQbncKNLJmlCrn fgKwd6M88SckFt/4U48giqhAaMXNhF8gIrzjHHcgfnEwx0y8qXhSkAKB/SGvyLqPqEDY 0SAf2Ok2jgJyT+CcpR/NU+fGxNADEhM31Ptw7X2/DvpHYIC4J8XQUw6YZ/q3BYCck3i/ yWh+xbt/DTwU9QyrY1JE/0nN277RMEUTkPyB+ACmr0Zz/nQl0hQdWVhWtYRyY4/nCQ53 jv/IiwjxQWUlb9MJrRf5hO0MZT62k0k0sgfRq16hyFfAfNkyy2AGRSD6OVt7JSUG0QG2 0RKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532dG9KJhZT06SfGykIJBXQNlHThD0WjoNG4p9eK2zCxTiN7Z7e5 zvSlGUhAtHucBzsCC7LzIiOoTkMgIU3A2g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJ9JBUNps2z6JbLP4VGVJqXXltomBBGNYkrGRGYv+nPpCQvjiDGpsBFhr/lfctsTeuPgLl0Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2291:b0:142:b53:6e08 with SMTP id b17-20020a170903229100b001420b536e08mr72174526plh.10.1637281511505; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i11sm730848pfu.50.2021.11.18.16.25.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:25:11 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <163727047653.22951.17102934516800585523@ietfa.amsl.com> <459db323-bec5-c957-f59b-ecf1fbbf01d5@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1847ddff-0baf-5c81-6232-ca749bea67d3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <459db323-bec5-c957-f59b-ecf1fbbf01d5@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 00:25:17 -0000 Looks good to me. I agree with all the changes. Regards Brian Carpenter On 19-Nov-21 10:24, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just submitted version -06 of our Internet-Draft, addressing as > many of the open issues as I could. Please take a look and let me know > if I've missed anything. > > Peter > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt > Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:21:16 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Peter Saint-Andre > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt > has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Revision: 06 > Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) > Document date: 2021-11-18 > Group: iab > Pages: 27 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 > > Abstract: > This document specifies version 3 of RFC Editor Model. The model > defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. Policy > definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working > Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series > Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Policy > implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production > Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration > Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). > > This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, > RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > From nobody Thu Nov 18 16:27:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B113A005F for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J37DisoSlgeS for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6492B3A005C for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id d64so4985346pgc.7 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mm1+fa6EUeMVhW09vmiHQHnsIanrmuQecjGUdjL2j+8=; b=PNqbaJaTkOEWeKmxKp3C3lNs11636JhBcUxu4CNH952ATTFNlWefnZUMuU1p5++P6L bgZWu5uAajKPx0KZRZNSY0RTuF+opzp3rQY6SPG0qY0a/3LllFpzl2rAQZixB6qn95Ls /oHdoUS23lU7o2KXYoZgQ24s4Qo00GFmsWAzOMISCvsoVJjvsqcF3gp0lgyvOb3FOk9r 3l4xqXZrOWvkzkSoCXd5Q6CEbhLn6+XdEVwUWV3SE3zd2CzeYQ9ivXG9iMjuYe6Qhik8 uBKOgjy+N+D0MaRmmJ8laGd0WeLet1N3I46BC3PHf8P2X9oqaSlhvqXtsYHJnerO+WNS EKsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mm1+fa6EUeMVhW09vmiHQHnsIanrmuQecjGUdjL2j+8=; b=itiZ9QMrJ+eQO/84ctqTxvNAUhiCtpgiSlGty3cNbT2UxSkmwVjiz7IIUSLkLLF8Ea Ci2MSZJWPH1p0Ws01kHV/NNJPXlEoaaBrxzJGmVm1h58ZZY52cOozuQQ/7minIdnajBI nsMqwrcUbOAfp8Dkkb1vZtsbHDmGOZLrU2NE4FUuYXOYfV73QadZzmHCVpE3mKnvDbQY cwIH6ymtz+dZ7DWiKNC8cCBGBiS/0nIR7VKXbN6ca7bChmd0Z6nu+uzgnBsYBw6TSIP4 5XXqgmHD5qcsRjHoB9SV+uGlmPSMwOZqH3g0vTBKI95zPPlsryFWzUB84rDsqV3jbcs3 5sBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533b4yLubFOhTYu60dl9lAaQQZOTHHYnLb/QZtEDIL/Xs5SjO5cl IecY2dYukXcOTrc1mTKludM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4ZhKm4Igc19NNr49cEal/tn651FKkRiBjUeMgSz/LYKr9R6JGrvC3Z9DeUZoQkON84toZkw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:811a:0:b0:44c:b9ef:f618 with SMTP id b26-20020aa7811a000000b0044cb9eff618mr19223003pfi.9.1637281660439; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v25sm728345pfg.175.2021.11.18.16.27.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:39 -0800 (PST) To: Joel Halpern Direct , Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Tommy Pauly References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8b483ed4-c16f-10cd-024e-1f9e78eab746@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:27:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 00:27:47 -0000 On 19-Nov-21 04:19, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: > Mirja, I think that free access to RFCs is an RFC series decision and > not a stream decision. Where should that principle be debated, if not in the RSWG? It seems clear to me by now that we will not reach consensus to add a set=20 of principles to the RFC Editor Model (Version 3). Whether we have rough = consensus to proceed without it is for our chairs to decide. Brian >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/18/2021 10:06 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. >> >>> On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hiya, >>> >>> On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>>>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>>>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were include= d. >>>>> It really would help me at least understand your objections (becaus= e >>>>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >>>> I don't think that's a valid criticism. You can say "these shouldn'= t >>>> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed"= >>>> isn't really responding to the first issue. >>> >>> Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others >>> don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, >>> and some example of how such text might cause a problem for >>> some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at >>> least understand that better. >>> >>> I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I >>> think help the discussion. >>> >>> To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some >>> RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" >>> but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought >>> never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess >>> apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not >>> done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't >>> think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) >> >> My point was rather that I think it=E2=80=99s a per-stream decision an= d I don=E2=80=99t really see a point in restricting us this way on a per-= series basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to always=20 try to have open access to all RFCs). >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> S. >>> -- >>> Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 18 17:26:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8585A3A0595 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:26:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rHeD2mznQvYj for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D00393A05AC for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HwJs45CjGz1ntWT; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:26:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637285160; bh=tb+2Y8NT/MuyVhcheLL3Zx6sPWr+RzBEwGNQmk1eYWs=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=SR3YJ5FKtCIL/gGN0oNIU4OR/7Ipxk++JWFreFnYAfFcqnLg27QvbYyt3zK+Lj2cN 1KIr2MGUivfbkvzWLlRoLbPJbx+c0akjdlEVScECMs7s7H8R8prFwkjSViPJWpI4xc oF6Oajmk0xVOxuxPVnDGGGL9ljQMaZLvtNmqoYjM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HwJrz70Jcz1ntSQ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:25:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:25:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Tommy Pauly References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> <8b483ed4-c16f-10cd-024e-1f9e78eab746@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8b483ed4-c16f-10cd-024e-1f9e78eab746@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 01:26:07 -0000 Frankly, it had occurred to me that the principle of open access to RFCs should be debated. Since folks don't seem to get it, it seems to me it needs to be written down. And then, if the RSWG wants to change it, it needs extra review. This has been a cornerstone of the RFC series since before the IETF existed. Yours, Joel On 11/18/2021 7:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 19-Nov-21 04:19, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >> Mirja, I think that free access to RFCs is an RFC series decision and >> not a stream decision. > > Where should that principle be debated, if not in the RSWG? > > It seems clear to me by now that we will not reach consensus to add a > set of principles to the RFC Editor Model (Version 3). Whether we have > rough consensus to proceed without it is for our chairs to decide. > >    Brian > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/18/2021 10:06 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. >>> >>>> On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hiya, >>>> >>>> On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>>>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>>>>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>>>>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were included. >>>>>> It really would help me at least understand your objections (because >>>>>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >>>>> I don't think that's a valid criticism.  You can say "these shouldn't >>>>> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed" >>>>> isn't really responding to the first issue. >>>> >>>> Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others >>>> don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, >>>> and some example of how such text might cause a problem for >>>> some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at >>>> least understand that better. >>>> >>>> I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I >>>> think help the discussion. >>>> >>>> To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some >>>> RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" >>>> but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought >>>> never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess >>>> apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not >>>> done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't >>>> think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) >>> >>> My point was rather that I think it’s a per-stream decision and I >>> don’t really see a point in restricting us this way on a per-series >>> basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to always > try to have open access to all RFCs). >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> S. >>>> -- >>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >> > From nobody Thu Nov 18 17:33:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EBE3A067B for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LAzgXkhkL0OS for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B03E23A0658 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse502.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.248] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx136.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mnsmb-0004Pt-Hf for rfced-future@iab.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 02:33:48 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4HwK1w5RlZz6GF for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.14] (helo=xmail04.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mnsma-0007qR-KW for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:40 -0800 Received: (qmail 18279 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2021 01:33:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.195]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail04.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 19 Nov 2021 01:33:39 -0000 Message-ID: <869ad49a-0c26-4bab-e683-97e97513d275@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:33:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Tommy Pauly References: <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <58e75c42-4c96-8201-0e5e-a0cda57e5a85@cs.tcd.ie> <23D0085D-D389-4CF4-8E5C-A11DE1758F55@akamai.com> <98CA88B9-AE73-4603-95B9-78B36853D32B@kuehlewind.net> <8b483ed4-c16f-10cd-024e-1f9e78eab746@gmail.com> <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.248 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT+WvDcXltGPMmPygGmY1e2tPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Krc/ J+nhxngNCIz6I51e3//zBSzw8schYcQ6DREOWcl9SxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4akhy/LP m2rFgOGYwKKX1POmkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgjI4WE+pjPnfrWRF8b8VMdb xZAvGlezp+L3lY1r5+0/b3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlld64m0rMD0Y/TlieBzYPP23h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlaQBYG wMstZO/AVZ8JyosGDe25B32sB41tWAJoVwTOZUpRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5ZicI+2zxwKLr5LR40 u9P+Xl0K1XacwNVrdseLPwMNJOyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 01:33:55 -0000 The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph of the draft's introduction. These principles have been followed for 50 years. Nothing is immutable, but changes to these basic principles may well have unintended consequences, and should not be considered lightly. I would support adding the previous two lines somewhere in the draft, maybe in the introduction. I will also support an RSWG effort delineating the principles, the past experience, and possible unintended consequences. I will not support trying to do that definition work in the draft itself. -- Christian Huitema On 11/18/2021 5:25 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Frankly, it had occurred to me that the principle of open access to > RFCs should be debated. > > Since folks don't seem to get it, it seems to me it needs to be > written down. > And then, if the RSWG wants to change it, it needs extra review. > > This has been a cornerstone of the RFC series since before the IETF > existed. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/18/2021 7:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 19-Nov-21 04:19, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >>> Mirja, I think that free access to RFCs is an RFC series decision and >>> not a stream decision. >> >> Where should that principle be debated, if not in the RSWG? >> >> It seems clear to me by now that we will not reach consensus to add a >> set of principles to the RFC Editor Model (Version 3). Whether we >> have rough consensus to proceed without it is for our chairs to decide. >> >>     Brian >> >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/18/2021 10:06 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>> Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. >>>> >>>>> On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hiya, >>>>> >>>>> On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>>>>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>>>>>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>>>>>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were >>>>>>> included. >>>>>>> It really would help me at least understand your objections >>>>>>> (because >>>>>>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >>>>>> I don't think that's a valid criticism.  You can say "these >>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed" >>>>>> isn't really responding to the first issue. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others >>>>> don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, >>>>> and some example of how such text might cause a problem for >>>>> some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at >>>>> least understand that better. >>>>> >>>>> I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I >>>>> think help the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some >>>>> RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" >>>>> but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought >>>>> never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess >>>>> apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not >>>>> done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't >>>>> think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) >>>> >>>> My point was rather that I think it’s a per-stream decision and I >>>> don’t really see a point in restricting us this way on a per-series >>>> basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to always >> try to have open access to all RFCs). >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> S. >>>>> -- >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>> >>> >> > From nobody Thu Nov 18 19:29:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520EF3A0809 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9BFU8KPZ9Xbw for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD4103A0808 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833B44B1D377; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTL0aFXiNZ67; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48EA14B1D372; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:29:25 +1300 Message-Id: <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org, "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Tommy Pauly In-Reply-To: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 03:29:36 -0000 > On 19/11/2021, at 2:26 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFrankly, it had occurred to me that the principle of open access t= o RFCs should be debated. >=20 > Since folks don't seem to get it, it seems to me it needs to be written do= wn. > And then, if the RSWG wants to change it, it needs extra review. There=E2=80=99s a key point here that I don=E2=80=99t understand and that I=E2= =80=99m hoping someone can explain. Why do people think that the RSWG is mor= e likely to reach consensus on changing something like =E2=80=98open access t= o RFCs=E2=80=99 than this group? I=E2=80=99m obviously much less familiar w= ith how these groups work than many of you, but naively perhaps, I don=E2=80= =99t see how such a radical divergence could reach consensus. Are some worri= ed that without these principles, policies will be introduced that go agains= t them without explicitly acknowledging or considering that? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > This has been a cornerstone of the RFC series since before the IETF existe= d. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 >> On 11/18/2021 7:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 19-Nov-21 04:19, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >>> Mirja, I think that free access to RFCs is an RFC series decision and >>> not a stream decision. >> Where should that principle be debated, if not in the RSWG? >> It seems clear to me by now that we will not reach consensus to add a set= of principles to the RFC Editor Model (Version 3). Whether we have rough co= nsensus to proceed without it is for our chairs to decide. >> Brian >>>=20 >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>>=20 >>> On 11/18/2021 10:06 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>>> Just to add one minor comment/correctly below. >>>>=20 >>>>> On 18. Nov 2021, at 15:51, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hiya, >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 18/11/2021 14:17, Salz, Rich wrote: >>>>>>> I don't agree that that helps. You (and others arguing >>>>>>> similarly) are not providing realistic examples of what you would >>>>>>> like to change, that could be put at risk if such text were included= . >>>>>>> It really would help me at least understand your objections (because= >>>>>>> I do not so far) if some such examples were described. >>>>>> I don't think that's a valid criticism. You can say "these shouldn't= >>>>>> be here" and "well, what does it break and what do you want changed" >>>>>> isn't really responding to the first issue. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sorry for not being clear. I do get that Ekr and some others >>>>> don't want the text there. I do not really understand why, >>>>> and some example of how such text might cause a problem for >>>>> some realistic thing the RSWG might want do might help me at >>>>> least understand that better. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I do think that's a valid question and answers would also I >>>>> think help the discussion. >>>>>=20 >>>>> To be fair, Mirja did propose one such - saying that some >>>>> RFCs from some putative stream might have "limited access" >>>>> but I'd actually turn that around and argue that we ought >>>>> never have any secret RFCs. ("Limited access" might I guess >>>>> apply to some other outputs of some RGs, but a) we've not >>>>> done that for ages, which I think is good, and b) I don't >>>>> think that ever applied to IRTF RFCs.) >>>>=20 >>>> My point was rather that I think it=E2=80=99s a per-stream decision and= I don=E2=80=99t really see a point in restricting us this way on a per-seri= es basis (even though I'm personally supportive of the goal to always=20 >> try to have open access to all RFCs). >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> S. >>>>> -- >>>>> Rfced-future mailing list >>>>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>>>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Thu Nov 18 22:10:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19933A0B80 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rH1v4t0OM07K for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E8C63A0B82 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AJ6AV33490365 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Nov 2021 07:10:32 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637302233; bh=GOCNHic9FCf3GNCZAjtgb4+TUInnKuLXrbcQnYYl8UM=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=wAQGD+6AqVexuW83ZG+6c9gDP+rSskO4uUtXECFuPuGlyfR3V70cGxNF+kTuCsZWf WtfrxwvDlxCCRXhSh58EzaAm7kWeG8LtEvMwakU607uzE7Xz5ERgTrxNDXQBhXkUeS nucSLz+T0XAx/3oJ8woNd4RRPCESgqpYS28IHmRY= Message-ID: <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 07:10:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------V8vhHAfOUOXJUPExXUHk3y0t" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:10:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------V8vhHAfOUOXJUPExXUHk3y0t Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------VABZmn40Ix4Aima4V3G6XbVn"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> --------------VABZmn40Ix4Aima4V3G6XbVn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWFyaywNCg0KT24gMTkuMTEuMjEgMDE6MDksIE1hcmsgTm90dGluZ2hhbSB3cm90ZToNCj4g RldJVyAtDQo+DQo+PiBPbiAxOCBOb3YgMjAyMSwgYXQgNzo1MSBwbSwgRWxpb3QgTGVhciA8 bGVhckBsZWFyLmNoPiB3cm90ZToNCj4+DQo+PiBUaGFuayB5b3UgSm9lbC4NCj4+DQo+PiBZ b3UgaGF2ZSBwbGFjZWQgYSBjb25jcmV0ZSBwcm9wb3NhbCBvbiB0aGUgdGFibGUuDQo+Pg0K Pj4gT24gMTguMTEuMjEgMDQ6MjcsIEpvZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybiB3cm90ZToNCj4+PiAgICAg IFRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgcHJpbmNpcGxlcyBhcmUgdW5kZXJzdG9vZCB0byBiZSBpbXBvcnRh 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en-US From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Iz0xU0Tx54nT0kF4tit1yS31" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:12:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Iz0xU0Tx54nT0kF4tit1yS31 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F00h4wUuTrqYk6zTDbrpcb5K"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Joel M. 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Fri, 19 Nov 2021 01:54:08 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:54:05 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear , Brian Rosen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:54:16 -0000 Eliot, > On 19 Nov 2021, at 5:10 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >> I (and I suspect others) haven't thought deeply about either Mike's = list or what principles I'd propose because we haven't yet gained = consensus to include principles in the draft. That is a conscious = decision that we should make before talking about their content. >=20 > Enough people have expressed just such a desire that in order for the = document to go forward, we must take the view that we are past that = point. That's unpleasantly surprising to hear from a chair. In my mind the = entire discussion to date has been of the character -- 'should we do = this'. Doubtless a few people want to hurry that along and get to what = they perceive as the 'meat' of the discussion, but that doesn't mean = that we should (or can) make such a weighty decision so quietly and = arbitrarily. If I'm the only person that feels that way, I'll (unhappily) demure. I = suspect I'm not -- I.e., I do *not* believe that we already have = consensus to include principles in the draft. If you want to try to = declare a consensus there, do it properly, not as an aside. >> As I argued earlier,[1] defining principles for the series aren't a = good fit for this body. We're supposed to be coming up with a process to = create policy, not guidance for that policy itself. >=20 > While I am not taking a position about the wisdom of going through = this exercise, the IAB placed no constraint on us doing so. If you = think I am misreading this group's charter, please explain which part. It says: "This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on = potential changes to the RFC Editor model. Discussion of changes to how = the RFC Editor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within = scope." It also says: "This program has no predetermined constraints on the decisions of the = group. Updates to or retention of the oversight model, management, and = the roles involved in the RFC Editor function are all within scope." "no predetermined constraints" is clearly *not* a get-out clause to = cover anything we wish. Everything in this charter is about _process_, = not the actual outcomes (policies). As I recall there was earlier strong pushback on actually establishing = policy in this group, and consensus to avoid doing so. Establishing = principles -- many of which have a strong character of policy (e.g., = English as the official language) -- violates that. Again, if I'm in the rough, so be it, but please do it properly. > There are, I think, principles that we may already already decided NOT = to debate, and as and when those arise, the chairs can rule on those = points. I wish you'd say 'attempt to find consensus' instead of 'rule'... >> The RSWG has better oversight than this body, in that it has = multiple layers and doesn't depend on a frankly fragile agreement in the = community to function. I also would like to get this work done and move = on, and I suspect establishing principles worthy of the series is going = to take at least several months. >>=20 >> If -- despite all of that -- we gain consensus to establish = principles, we need to do so properly. >>=20 >> To me, that means that the Chairs should make a call for proposed = principles -- not privileging Mike's list as a de facto starting point. >=20 > I agree that Mike's list cannot not be privileged. For one thing, it = lacks rough consensus. For another, you and others might wish to add a = few principles of your own for consideration, and you would certainly be = entitled to do so. However, see below. >=20 >> We need to create an issue per principle and discuss them separately, = not as a job lot, and only those that gain consensus should be included. >=20 > The chairs will discuss the mechanism today, but I think the group has = a choice. We can be conservative in this list and include those = principles where it is clear that we ALREADY have consensus =E2=80=93 = and I think there several we can find where this is the case; or we can = go on what is likely to be a lengthy exercise to try to further develop = consensus on additional points. We can also document in this draft = principles we discussed that didn't find consensus but may be worth = considering in the context of the RSWG. I think the key point to make = relating to the above text you have no problem with is that the process = is designed to allow the community to evolve its views and policies over = time. You're again assuming consensus that hasn't yet been established. Please = stop, and please do this correctly -- we've all invested a lot of time = in this so far. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Nov 18 23:53:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5B63A0C44 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 23:53:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRhbGK8YshoX for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 23:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A267D3A0C43 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 23:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AJ7rRlO540178 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:53:27 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637308409; bh=xOGccwCIuw814hD9fTixeNmRWYuQGSb2ltx3FLE96Zo=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=onkx5YPriNG8DC3RsUPqvlVYXBEuerSPVIGuyhQzaDYVpp+eAveGLSW6xFF8Ed4Ak fksXvhO1+vDizb+kwRCg5GUzJMsD8++8hDszisjOrIDTunkjZdQjHezWCuV5fF/+Kk 3/+bcp/zZnEB11Z0QT0bdYW7LqGmfasbTaqpsEDQ= Message-ID: <4e8c4d29-2203-d16e-a43c-4c4784bb0e1b@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:53:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , Brian Rosen Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Cduq06MGtIs0v8CkrR0EErb0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 07:53:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Cduq06MGtIs0v8CkrR0EErb0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4gLxcgD0Sut1yTKRgqKddP75"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham , Brian Rosen Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <4e8c4d29-2203-d16e-a43c-4c4784bb0e1b@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: --------------4gLxcgD0Sut1yTKRgqKddP75 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9nKulGcEGrI19pFkA8Crk4ae" --------------9nKulGcEGrI19pFkA8Crk4ae Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------PoEZlRkOA5pDSrOrh9MGDBiO" --------------PoEZlRkOA5pDSrOrh9MGDBiO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWFyaywNCg0KPj4gRW5vdWdoIHBlb3BsZSBoYXZlIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBqdXN0IHN1Y2ggYSBk ZXNpcmUgdGhhdCBpbiBvcmRlciBmb3IgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIGdvIGZvcndhcmQsIHdl IG11c3QgdGFrZSB0aGUgdmlldyB0aGF0IHdlIGFyZSBwYXN0IHRoYXQgcG9pbnQuDQo+IFRo YXQncyB1bnBsZWFzYW50bHkgc3VycHJpc2luZyB0byBoZWFyIGZyb20gYSBjaGFpci4gSW4g bXkgbWluZCB0aGUgZW50aXJlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdG8gZGF0ZSBoYXMgYmVlbiBvZiB0aGUg Y2hhcmFjdGVyIC0tICdzaG91bGQgd2UgZG8gdGhpcycuDQoNCkJhc2VkIG9uIHdobyBoYXMg Y29tbWVudGVkIG9uIGxpc3QsIGEgc29tZXdoYXQgbGFyZ2VyIG51bWJlciBvZiBwZW9wbGUg DQp3YW50IHNvbWUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBwcmluY2lwbGVzIGluIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB0 aGFuIHRob3NlIHdobyBkbyANCm5vdC7CoCBJIGFtIGFja25vd2xlZGdpbmcgdGhhdCBhcyBz aG91bGQgeW91LsKgIEkgc2VlIG5vIHBvaW50IGluIA0KcmVwZWF0aW5nIHRoZSBleGVyY2lz ZSBvZiBjb3VudGluZyBoYW5kcy4gRnVydGhlcm1vcmUsIGl0J3MgY2xlYXIgdG8gdGhlIA0K Y2hhaXJzIHRoYXQgd2UgY2Fubm90IGNsb3NlIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB3aXRob3V0IGFjY29t bW9kYXRpbmcgdGhhdCB2aWV3IA0KaW4gc29tZSB3YXkuwqAgV2UgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBhYmxl IHRvIGNsb3NlIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBpbiBhbnkgY2FzZS7CoCANClRoYXQgaXMgc29tZXRo aW5nIHdlIHdpbGwgZGV0ZXJtaW5lIGxhdGVyLCBhcyB5b3UgcHJldmlvdXNseSBub3RlZC4N Cg0KPiBbVGhlIENoYXJ0ZXJdIHNheXM6DQo+DQo+ICJUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0gaXMgaW50ZW5k ZWQgdG8gZm9zdGVyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYW5kIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBvbiBwb3RlbnRpYWwgY2hh bmdlcyB0byB0aGUgUkZDIEVkaXRvciBtb2RlbC4gIERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgY2hhbmdlcyB0 byBob3cgdGhlIFJGQyBFZGl0b3IgZnVuY3Rpb24gaXMgbWFuYWdlZCwgc3RhZmZlZCwgYW5k IG92ZXJzZWVuIGFyZSBhbGwgd2l0aGluIHNjb3BlLiINCj4NCj4gSXQgYWxzbyBzYXlzOg0K Pg0KPiAiVGhpcyBwcm9ncmFtIGhhcyBubyBwcmVkZXRlcm1pbmVkIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIG9u IHRoZSBkZWNpc2lvbnMgb2YgdGhlIGdyb3VwLiAgVXBkYXRlcyB0byBvciByZXRlbnRpb24g b2YgdGhlIG92ZXJzaWdodCBtb2RlbCwgbWFuYWdlbWVudCwgYW5kIHRoZSByb2xlcyBpbnZv bHZlZCBpbiB0aGUgUkZDIEVkaXRvciBmdW5jdGlvbiBhcmUgYWxsIHdpdGhpbiBzY29wZS4i DQo+DQo+ICJubyBwcmVkZXRlcm1pbmVkIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIiBpcyBjbGVhcmx5ICpub3Qq IGEgZ2V0LW91dCBjbGF1c2UgdG8gY292ZXIgYW55dGhpbmcgd2Ugd2lzaC4NCg0KSSB0YWtl IHRoZSB0ZXh0IHRvIG1lYW4gaXMgdGhhdCB3ZSBjYW4gY292ZXIgZ3JvdW5kIHJlbGF0aW5n IHRvICIqKnRoZSANCm1hbmFnZW1lbnQsIHRoZSBvdmVyc2lnaHQgbW9kZWwsIG1hbmFnZW1l bnQsIGFuZCByb2xlcyBpbnZvbHZlZC4uLiIgDQp3aXRob3V0IHByZWRldGVybWluZWQgY29u c3RyYWludHMuwqAgWW91IGNhbiBhcHBlYWwgdG8gdGhlIElBQiBvbiB0aGlzIA0KcG9pbnQg aWYgeW91IHdpc2gtIHRoZXNlIGFyZSB0aGVpciB3b3JkcywgYW5kIHRoZXkgY2FuIGNsYXJp ZnkgdGhlbSBvciANCmNoYW5nZSB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciwgYnV0IHRvIG1lLCB0aGUgcGxhaW4g cmVhZGluZyBkb2VzIG5vdCBjb25zdHJhaW4gdXMuwqAgDQpXaGF0J3MgbW9yZSwgaXQncyBj bGVhciBmcm9tIHRoZSBtYWpvcml0eSBvZiB2aWV3cyBleHByZXNzZWQgdGhhdCBwZW9wbGUg DQp3YW50wqAgc29tZSBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgYWJvdXQgcHJpbmNpcGxlcywgYW5kIHdlIHdvbid0 IGNsb3NlIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCANCndpdGhvdXQgdGhlbS4gQ29udmVuaWVudGx5IHRoZXJl IGFyZSBhbHJlYWR5IHNvbWUgc3RhdGVkIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdC4NCg0KPiBZb3UncmUgYWdh aW4gYXNzdW1pbmcgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRoYXQgaGFzbid0IHlldCBiZWVuIGVzdGFibGlzaGVk Lg0KDQpUbyBiZSBjbGVhciwgaWYgd2UgYXMgYSBncm91cCBjYW4gZXN0YWJsaXNoIGNyaXNw bHkgb24gdGhhdCB3aGljaCB3ZSANCmFscmVhZHkgYWdyZWUsIHRoYXQgaXMgYXQgbGVhc3Qg b25lIGxpc3Qgd2UgY2FuIGluY2x1ZGUgaW4gdGhlIA0KZG9jdW1lbnQuwqAgQXMgSSB3cm90 ZSBlYXJsaWVyLCB3ZSBjYW4gcG9sbCB0byBkZXRlcm1pbmUgdGhpcy7CoCBJIGFtIA0KbWFr aW5nIG5vIGFzc3VtcHRpb25zLg0KDQpFbGlvdA0KDQoNCg== --------------PoEZlRkOA5pDSrOrh9MGDBiO Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

Enough people have express=
ed just such a desire that in order for the document to go forward, we mu=
st take the view that we are past that point.

That's unpleasantly surprising to hear from a chair. In my mind the entir=
e discussion to date has been of the character -- 'should we do this'.

Based on who has commented on list, a somewhat larger number of people want some discussion of principles in the document than those who do not.=C2=A0 I am acknowledging that as should you.=C2=A0= I see no point in repeating the exercise of counting hands.=C2=A0 Furthermore, it's clear to the chairs that we cannot close the document without accommodating that view in some way.=C2=A0 We may = not be able to close the document in any case.=C2=A0 That is something = we will determine later, as you previously noted.

[The Charter] says:

"This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on potential=
 changes to the RFC Editor model.  Discussion of changes to how the RFC E=
ditor function is managed, staffed, and overseen are all within scope."

It also says:

"This program has no predetermined constraints on the decisions of the gr=
oup.  Updates to or retention of the oversight model, management, and the=
 roles involved in the RFC Editor function are all within scope."

"no predetermined constraints" is clearly *not* a get-out clause to cover=
 anything we wish.

I take the text to mean is that we can cover ground relating to "<= b>the management, the oversight model, management, and roles involved..." without predetermined constraints.=C2=A0 You can appea= l to the IAB on this point if you wish- these are their words, and they can clarify them or change the charter, but to me, the plain reading does not constrain us.=C2=A0 What's more, it's clear from t= he majority of views expressed that people want=C2=A0 some statement a= bout principles, and we won't close the document without them.=C2=A0 Conveniently there are already some stated in the draft.

You're again assuming consen=
sus that hasn't yet been established.

To be clear, if we as a group can establish crisply on that which we already agree, that is at least one list we can include in the document.=C2=A0 As I wrote earlier, we can poll to determine this.=C2= =A0 I am making no assumptions.

Eliot


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Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4e8c4d29-2203-d16e-a43c-4c4784bb0e1b@lear.ch> References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> <4e8c4d29-2203-d16e-a43c-4c4784bb0e1b@lear.ch> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:42:26 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:42:52 -0000 On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, at 18:53, Eliot Lear wrote: > Furthermore, it's clear to > the chairs that we cannot close the document without accommodating that > view in some way. Addressing. Not accommodating. 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Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , Mirja Kuehlewind , Stephen Farrell CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" , Eric Rescorla , Tommy Pauly Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:02:35 -0000 PiBUaGVzZSBwcmluY2lwbGVzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBmb2xsb3dlZCBmb3IgNTAgDQogICAgeWVhcnMu IE5vdGhpbmcgaXMgaW1tdXRhYmxlDQoNCldvcmRzIGFyZS4gIEhhY2tlci4gIENyeXB0by4gIE9w ZW4gYWNjZXNzIG9mdGVuIHVzZWQgdG8gbWVhbiB5b3UgY291bGQgZmluZCBpdCBpbiB0aGUgbGli cmFyeS4NCg0K From nobody Fri Nov 19 06:17:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619EA3A0954 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JD61siPpwlnF for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BCD23A0951 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id l8so10377134ilv.3 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WKgJ6BHmFm8IF+dY56bieEdLPN3BYYAtPf/HsGgnrKQ=; b=HdyCqCWsXjsgcV+DopDvmNECYPrro5fArhGa7TRKhTaHV8WflDKNzkfDrV/4HVyAu9 +Ks+ofHDTAQAvInUeSMYDnhU7Vv6dAsBAwdwMQMkaGomQn/6sTDfGLdoGqPewVuFEfdh P4wHaZ3cbzITgMJKKJuoIqH6iZYZbiRkVjiHFC3YK6+8rfyClDJFb1dtMshMRaXufxe4 hEG91j61XRMwJzxmWwzGw7+bUQ2b+5bhvhIQnvekhjIb7+G9hE0vIDmvAYe5rnAge+gy W9TgC8/K3RK4k2ZC3f9tdqXnJrBSL/qefTF4y5vI1IZ5dCO2sHZ9VqpNkJGh8RKWUfXL eudg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WKgJ6BHmFm8IF+dY56bieEdLPN3BYYAtPf/HsGgnrKQ=; b=eBlDNOD8tQ8FOl3ce/GN+9mld9siFCQhhTyjuji04vHcdGMdyQ3zXfjmJvtgfcDUhp 4kLNaAOKm2MkFrujC4d5/1HN8N2Z/eLFVS94Rb2SCfPC2DKxR7qhheUpDfw+Akz3Kv9X urCfzGio9jFKeV6wP95zrH50ZrqCl0M348AV3twrK2apcywZHTIikRq18O5IChFlNvSz ZIhKYQNy/69X+grs2dpMmhzG2T13ekzSSfNMNDVcsaiiKm5ATYiAQA46rWZvD1w6DxR0 jeVzFxzANnH7C9vFQ6lGQCryT894i9CII3eElD+nbOtZw2OM3rYDpuNDnDYpKS3VlJM0 MoZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HU7R9BQVsho2/Ee9EdKcDSTuOmty+x19mIqkdfN+jo5K8P1dQ ZmQwEfxdQqr54xldx99+v1gERxkPrI5SJH7sli7Z3GiS/OA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyubwYHawje8kxI90MpYKmKQSwqcr0RQeWz7xoB9ROq0PG8nKWEDny0Aa6RXWbK546gWW9AYx1CrmqKXWpTsJU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:152a:: with SMTP id i10mr4968321ilu.10.1637331469554; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <780ded4c-3993-212e-40d0-990b272db85b@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eliot Lear , Brian Rosen , "rfced-future@iab.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009f6ebf05d124f0da" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:17:57 -0000 --0000000000009f6ebf05d124f0da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 10:54 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Eliot, > > > On 19 Nov 2021, at 5:10 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> I (and I suspect others) haven't thought deeply about either Mike's > list or what principles I'd propose because we haven't yet gained consensus > to include principles in the draft. That is a conscious decision that we > should make before talking about their content. > > > > Enough people have expressed just such a desire that in order for the > document to go forward, we must take the view that we are past that point. > > That's unpleasantly surprising to hear from a chair. In my mind the entire > discussion to date has been of the character -- 'should we do this'. > Doubtless a few people want to hurry that along and get to what they > perceive as the 'meat' of the discussion, but that doesn't mean that we > should (or can) make such a weighty decision so quietly and arbitrarily. > > If I'm the only person that feels that way, I'll (unhappily) demure. I > suspect I'm not -- I.e., I do *not* believe that we already have consensus > to include principles in the draft. If you want to try to declare a > consensus there, do it properly, not as an aside. > Unsurprisingly, I concur with Mark. If you think that there is rough consensus to include principles in the draft, then declare it. However, what you say above is entirely different, which is that you believe that there are enough people who want them that we cannot proceed without it. However, it is possible that the opposite is *also* true. The way that this situation is handled is to continue the WG process until we *do* reach some rough consensus, not for the chairs to just arbitrarily decide -Ekr --0000000000009f6ebf05d124f0da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 10:54 PM Mark= Nottingham <mnot@mno= t.net> wrote:
Eliot,

> On 19 Nov 2021, at 5:10 pm, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
>> I (and I suspect others) haven't thought deeply about either M= ike's list or what principles I'd propose because we haven't ye= t gained consensus to include principles in the draft. That is a conscious = decision that we should make before talking about their content.
>
> Enough people have expressed just such a desire that in order for the = document to go forward, we must take the view that we are past that point.<= br>
That's unpleasantly surprising to hear from a chair. In my mind the ent= ire discussion to date has been of the character -- 'should we do this&= #39;. Doubtless a few people want to hurry that along and get to what they = perceive as the 'meat' of the discussion, but that doesn't mean= that we should (or can) make such a weighty decision so quietly and arbitr= arily.

If I'm the only person that feels that way, I'll (unhappily) demure= . I suspect I'm not -- I.e., I do *not* believe that we already have co= nsensus to include principles in the draft. If you want to try to declare a= consensus there, do it properly, not as an aside.
Unsurprisingly, I concur with Mark. If you think that there is = rough consensus to include principles in the draft, then declare it.
<= div>
However, what you say above is entirely different, which= is that you believe that there are enough people who want them that we can= not proceed without it. However, it is possible that the opposite is *also*= true. The way that this situation is handled is to continue the WG process= until we *do* reach some rough consensus, not for the chairs to just arbit= rarily decide

-Ekr


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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------EWTmJBGuJHsi0MXMmuLNoZ2k" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:58:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------EWTmJBGuJHsi0MXMmuLNoZ2k Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Cf47WCKiXPpbMPcCtLiLi34L"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> Subject: Poll: next steps --------------Cf47WCKiXPpbMPcCtLiLi34L Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------64OXtTpNi3H9Xr0bXIs24tM3" --------------64OXtTpNi3H9Xr0bXIs24tM3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------pAzvGcZirh063PJkJz0D6Req" --------------pAzvGcZirh063PJkJz0D6Req Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs would like to make clear the following points:


  1. There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that= have been proposed.

  2. There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forwa= rd.

  3. There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the b= asis of our decision making.

  4. For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required.=


The question for us now is what sort of text to include.=C2=A0 Joel=E2= =80=99s proposal is interesting. =C2=A0 Some people who do not want princ= iples in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objecti= ons to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start= ?


If people agree, we note that Joel=E2=80=99s text would need to be ac= companied by some principles, and the d= iscussion would then turn to what those would be.


If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step.<= /span>

Could you please respond by Tuesday?



Brian and Eliot



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17:05:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------gmtzOFpktouqk0gC1KeU8oFt" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0024.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2d::34) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPV6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:a6c1:4a9d:34a:c2ee] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:a6c1:4a9d:34a:c2ee) by DB6PR07CA0024.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2d::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4713.16 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:05:30 +0000 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T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zAMuSjX7q0QR for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3B7E3A0965 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.132] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AJHL88E817496 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:21:09 +0100 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Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom.

On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote:

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs would like to make clear the following points:

  1. = There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles th= at have been proposed.

  2. = There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move for= ward.

  3. = There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the= basis of our decision making.

  4. = For the document to go forward, some compromise will be require= d.


The question for us now is what sort of text to include.=C2=A0 Joel= =E2=80=99s proposal is interesting. =C2=A0 Some people who do not want pr= inciples in the document have indicated that they do not have strong obje= ctions to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to st= art?


If people agree, we note that Joel=E2=80=99s text would need to be = accompanied by some principles, and the= discussion would then turn to what those would be.


If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step= =2E

Could you please respond by Tuesday?



Brian and Eliot



Joel's text:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The following principl= es are understood to be important to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the RFC series.=C2=A0 When reviewing documents= from the RSWG that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 either change these principles, or significant= ly change the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 way they are realized, the RSAB members are ex= pected to pay
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 particular attention to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a) whether the changes adversely affect the lo= ng term health
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the RFC series; and=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 b) whether the changes have received sufficien= t review and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 comment in the larger = community affected by the RFC Series



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Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:30:19 -0800 Received: (qmail 12250 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2021 18:30:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.195]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 19 Nov 2021 18:30:18 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DVEbeBuMLh0Qp0tWQBE9nNwL" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:30:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.114 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/KlIl 8Kol0VfGT8ruucSgH4zHuRN4BPCpfNRiXFg6XQ/8SxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV4eRNft4MeuN/rP9KtFPXUnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4amLIlhV wP2HQYvX8wxRXZtkkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dlAMC5uyzWopS9Dc1M1eieav 9ZHKPBrT4Fsi+X3LmNkyb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP 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19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> The chairs would like to make clear the following points: >> >> >> 1. >> >>     There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that >>     have been proposed. >> >> 2. >> >>     There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward. >> >> 3. >> >>     There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the >>     basis of our decision making. >> >> 4. >> >>     For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. >> >> >> The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s >> proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in >> the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections >> to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start? >> >> >> If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be >> accompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to >> what those would be. >> >> >> If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. >> >> Could you please respond by Tuesday? >> >> >> >> Brian and Eliot >> >> >> > Joel's text: > >>     The following principles are understood to be important to >>     the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >>     either change these principles, or significantly change the >>     way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >>     particular attention to >>     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >>         of the RFC series; and >>     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >>         comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles are understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a variant of the text that I proposed before: The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph of {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that  either change these principles, or significantly change the  way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay  particular attention to     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the RFC series; and     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series -- Christian Huitema > > > > --------------DVEbeBuMLh0Qp0tWQBE9nNwL Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 11/19/2021 9:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom.

On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote:

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs would like to make clear the following points:


1.

    There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that
    have been proposed.

2.

    There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward.

3.

    There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the
    basis of our decision making.

4.

    For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required.


The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start?


If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be accompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to what those would be.


If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step.

Could you please respond by Tuesday?



Brian and Eliot



Joel's text:

    The following principles are understood to be important to
    the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that
    either change these principles, or significantly change the
    way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay
    particular attention to
    a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health
        of the RFC series; and
    b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and
        comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series

I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles are understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a variant of the text that I proposed before:

The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph of {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that  either change these principles, or significantly change the  way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay  particular attention to

    a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the RFC series; and
    b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and  comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series

-- Christian Huitema








--------------DVEbeBuMLh0Qp0tWQBE9nNwL-- From nobody Fri Nov 19 11:18:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66B13A09E0 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kfirx63X-Slc for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68EEA3A09DC for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HwmfB70Mzz1pK64; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:18:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637349490; bh=ghp+MalxSw/JUtrom43SK4dmpn8Y4jMHdTM12P7OU7o=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=oxJElYLSz+1bPYkhzDgpFEO1zIpQyIte7QahIprhSEO367IwM1buMzjLqxJTRW1kX N446w4Qx6sALXv1JjyFZiCFUjVOzf5UMSQ2le9FkiD9ovpoNO3mQ+at9B0YfhIq+J0 XKFFsDgHVV29tL23EAr9WGWeYbsB73JnRjHqsWNY= X-Quarantine-ID: <3WRsPwmQzbJK> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hwmf71qVYz1pK5s; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:18:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 14:18:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Christian Huitema , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:18:16 -0000 This wording assumes that the answer to "what principles" is only the ones we adopted in passing earlier. While that may be the answer we end u with, it seems a stretch to assume that before we discuss them. Yours, Joel On 11/19/2021 1:30 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 11/19/2021 9:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom. >> >> On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> The chairs would like to make clear the following points: >>> >>> >>> 1. >>> >>>     There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that >>>     have been proposed. >>> >>> 2. >>> >>>     There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward. >>> >>> 3. >>> >>>     There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the >>>     basis of our decision making. >>> >>> 4. >>> >>>     For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. >>> >>> >>> The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s >>> proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in >>> the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections >>> to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start? >>> >>> >>> If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be >>> accompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to >>> what those would be. >>> >>> >>> If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. >>> >>> Could you please respond by Tuesday? >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian and Eliot >>> >>> >>> >> Joel's text: >> >>>     The following principles are understood to be important to >>>     the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >>>     either change these principles, or significantly change the >>>     way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >>>     particular attention to >>>     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >>>         of the RFC series; and >>>     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >>>         comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > > I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles are > understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a variant > of the text that I proposed before: > > The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph of > {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When reviewing > documents from the RSWG that  either change these principles, or > significantly change the  way they are realized, the RSAB members are > expected to pay  particular attention to > >     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the > RFC series; and >     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment > in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > >> >> >> >> > From nobody Fri Nov 19 13:25:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330803A0B15 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-r_C2YppjdI for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28ED13A0B12 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id 28so9651999pgq.8 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/qSFtbHTjSrBGT445ZDZBV1WRPWXTKCyz0crO9/RqKI=; b=Q9X0NsLZCbNE3opN6QYX7tKkxvOhlR9+FJ423cSFV1266qncNVOlQiIOWpyREfkMo4 UuPK1w5s1iNN90n3rhTr3owMVzgXx8VyCSknnGkZ0DIvS93Hf2HGhhaoeRdSt7WpuYLF wNGwzV3T4RMCsPTSrZcFfdMkI3zfnl42T1Dnf31Ksi6ZzYLK/5h1KDC/mgOKGqIgM19H rYUoogxXyg3OPSawL3Y3DEVzWlM6ewcj/zkWytUBCC8jubT4wAOtezmyDEy7y4nGyGPw 6jeTVLUuyzM1qHdeJQQWrnhCgN5b9up2b+pPioavwgiOQzz5tU2dZjedV4ev38DVARxs jFug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/qSFtbHTjSrBGT445ZDZBV1WRPWXTKCyz0crO9/RqKI=; b=TuOyNEw14gXJMfwBdTt94cVdFQDj2UeuoSq96T0k5tKUKJDgBnXANW7bOBnIHRzpNh QZGiweDLnrJRJWfXKtBjxLmpb8jpo3oQHHDuFkwqMlL4VCNgc4nBlswA23KvPWY57Zj+ d9QNYr+5gcoIxmsGYJBUJS7PXTZdmrKBRV5mnMhNN0l0c7TQSI/kkNO10xC6+aOXmTSB 9AHNMI0rzIGuIE6/nQGO/x5wFVJrDSffmv26XOZGfdlf4oeOaEdLWJD46wYhh60eL7Rt ctbGzHsNruyDHFWXl/UIGJCm4URM4w4FsvkXX1QPg+hPInZbsKDrJS+qMjRhYD6wh/Zr RpyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530J4smWomX/ybQRHv3Ipuvo1CuhHGw4Uu3QOomO2o9qF6SzSUJx yphg/Lt0ESdcPeBC+wtlQJuZSXrihvezkw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRp46QKtvbWV42/8Vy6rksAennwXQVGLzGBcpmLQzBOlLwpJDj4jju37j0A7sLWSfOi8QHWg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a94:b0:44c:ecb2:6018 with SMTP id b20-20020a056a000a9400b0044cecb26018mr25889952pfl.57.1637357118054; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y6sm527285pfi.154.2021.11.19.13.25.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:25:17 -0800 (PST) To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:25:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:25:20 -0000 Below... On 20-Nov-21 05:58, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Colleagues, >=20 >=20 > The chairs would like to make clear the following points: >=20 >=20 > 1. >=20 > There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that h= ave been proposed. >=20 > 2. >=20 > There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward= =2E >=20 > 3. >=20 > There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the bas= is of our decision making. >=20 > 4. >=20 > For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. >=20 >=20 > The question for us now is what sort of text to include.=C2=A0 Joel=E2=80= =99s proposal is interesting. =C2=A0 Some people who do not want principl= es in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections=20 to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start? >=20 >=20 > If people agree, we note that Joel=E2=80=99s text would need to be acco= mpanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to what tho= se would be. If there is some compromise between Joel's and Christian's text, I would = have no objection to proceeding in this way. Brian C >=20 >=20 > If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. >=20 > Could you please respond by Tuesday? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Brian and Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Nov 21 00:36:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C17D3A0BA4 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2021 00:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=TIEfzpWg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=g7G4yxpZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrbUrjB3uKr3 for ; 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Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:39:14 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============8216882930062761524==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: rfced-future@iab.org Message-Id: <20211121083552.858BC3A0781@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 00:35:52 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 08:35:57 -0000 --===============8216882930062761524== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events=20 Issues ------ * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+1/-29/=F0=9F=92=AC44) 1 issues created: - Colin Perkins feedback (by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/135=20 27 issues received 44 new comments: - #135 Colin Perkins feedback (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/135=20 - #133 a member of the community -> a person (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/133 [Editor= ial]=20 - #132 What happens if the vote doesn't pass? (3 by elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/132 [Consen= sus]=20 - #131 7282->2418 citation (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/131 [Editor= ial]=20 - #130 =C2=A7 3.1.2 should choose new chair -> chooses new chair (1 by st= peter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/130 [Editor= ial]=20 - #129 RSWG chairs issue community call, not RSAB (1 by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/129=20 - #128 Permit RSCE not to wait to be consulted (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/128 [Consen= sus]=20 - #127 COI mods (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/127=20 - #126 Point in time reference to RPC responsibilities (2 by elear, stpet= er) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/126 [Editor= ial]=20 - #125 Be specific about individuals in raising concerns (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/125 [Consen= sus]=20 - #124 Minor tweak to cover legacy RFC editor documents (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/124=20 - #123 Mike St. Johns Editorials (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/123 [Editor= ial]=20 - #122 "RPC under authority of the IETF LLC" =3D> "as contractually overs= een by the IETF LLC" (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/122 [Consen= sus]=20 - #121 Section on External Representation does only consider incoming req= uests but not actual representation (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/121 [Editor= ial]=20 - #120 Clarification on performance targets text (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/120=20 - #112 Minor: RPC Statement of Work (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/112 [Editor= ial]=20 - #111 selection committees (again) (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/111=20 - #109 Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org i= n stone? (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109=20 - #108 Remove the word "ultimate" (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/108=20 - #107 What are the updates to other RFCs? (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/107 [Editor= ial]=20 - #106 Editorial: Update first sentence of abstract? (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/106 [Editor= ial]=20 - #105 RPC responsibilities list missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) r= esponsibilities (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105 [Consen= sus]=20 - #104 Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is= still in post but temporarily unavailable (1 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/104=20 - #97 3-month timer restart? (2 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/97=20 - #94 Who resolves disputes when they need to be timely? (4 by elear, stp= eter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/94=20 - #93 Basis for appeals of RSAB decisions (3 by elear, stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/93=20 - #90 Should the 2418 backstop be more general (3 by stpeter) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/90 [Editori= al]=20 29 issues closed: - Colin Perkins feedback https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-fu= ture/issues/135=20 - Simpler process for certain changes https://github.com/intarchboard/pro= gram-rfced-future/issues/114=20 - COI mods https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/12= 7=20 - Minor tweak to cover legacy RFC editor documents https://github.com/int= archboard/program-rfced-future/issues/124=20 - Clarification on performance targets text https://github.com/intarchboa= rd/program-rfced-future/issues/120=20 - Allow for a temporary RSCE appointment while the permanent RSCE is stil= l in post but temporarily unavailable https://github.com/intarchboard/progr= am-rfced-future/issues/104=20 - Remove the word "ultimate" https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfce= d-future/issues/108=20 - No accountability https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/= issues/115=20 - costs hidden https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issue= s/118=20 - Nominate initial list of RFCs for editorial stream https://github.com/i= ntarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/116=20 - Expertise concerns https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future= /issues/113=20 - Do we want to write the existence of rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org in sto= ne? https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/109=20 - selection committees (again) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rf= ced-future/issues/111=20 - 3-month timer restart? https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-fu= ture/issues/97=20 - Should the 2418 backstop be more general https://github.com/intarchboar= d/program-rfced-future/issues/90 [Editorial]=20 - RPC responsibilities list missing a couple of ex-(RFC Publisher) respon= sibilities https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/105 = [Consensus]=20 - Editorial: Update first sentence of abstract? https://github.com/intarc= hboard/program-rfced-future/issues/106 [Editorial]=20 - What are the updates to other RFCs? https://github.com/intarchboard/pro= gram-rfced-future/issues/107 [Editorial]=20 - Minor: RPC Statement of Work https://github.com/intarchboard/program-r= fced-future/issues/112 [Editorial]=20 - Mike St. Johns Editorials https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced= -future/issues/123 [Editorial]=20 - Be specific about individuals in raising concerns https://github.com/in= tarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/125 [Consensus]=20 - Point in time reference to RPC responsibilities https://github.com/inta= rchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/126 [Editorial]=20 - a member of the community -> a person https://github.com/intarchboard/p= rogram-rfced-future/issues/133 [Editorial]=20 - 7282->2418 citation https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-futur= e/issues/131 [Editorial]=20 - =C2=A7 3.1.2 should choose new chair -> chooses new chair https://githu= b.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/130 [Editorial]=20 - Permit RSCE not to wait to be consulted https://github.com/intarchboard= /program-rfced-future/issues/128 [Consensus]=20 - "RPC under authority of the IETF LLC" =3D> "as contractually overseen b= y the IETF LLC" https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues= /122 [Consensus]=20 - Section on External Representation does only consider incoming requests= but not actual representation https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfce= d-future/issues/121 [Editorial]=20 - Editorial: add reference to draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter? https://= github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/86 [Editorial]=20 Pull requests ------------- * intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC1) 2 pull requests submitted: - Proposal to add another paragraph about what the RFC series is (by mirj= ak) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/137=20 - Make the boilerplate addition a blockquote (by martinthomson) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/136=20 1 pull requests received 1 new comments: - #137 Proposal to add another paragraph about what the RFC series is (1 = by elear) https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/137 [In Discu= ssion]=20 1 pull requests merged: - Make the boilerplate addition a blockquote https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/136=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future --===============8216882930062761524== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity= Summary)

Sunday November 21, 2021

Events

Issues

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+1/-29/=F0=9F=92=AC44)

1 issues created:

27 issues received 44 new comments:

29 issues closed:

Pull requests

intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC1)

2 pull requests submitted:

1 pull requests received 1 new comments:

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--===============8216882930062761524==-- From nobody Mon Nov 22 09:57:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378FA3A0CC9 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQ7qRRRdBDvy for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 334C13A0CC7 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id bu11so13083869qvb.0 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=vlQ6ddqxun7jZGhxWiQuzkC07w/YVUWaugTv+nHxNTc=; b=X+Z1NDWj1wga8JOHdQP8HhcK64TlZiO9qjFifknQn+AfCgzlWoDccEUPjb5K3bZrJv jaQrWxvDQRE0L4Gr6VfD3iQMjQI3E47cWtsCq2z0BDg+Qb/fQf3rPgerT/ILkyRIzvUj kmTax4Km//HeQcSKlSCQi8+Hn9JrrMWAeYKXPTwhCkVq1dN49o9V9T6mSzcLVYf7IJDj YsgFOG52An33lmd52RzOZPsIg0ftYYB5omU9Y5uUxA+o2zl3viT2FMUxjVYKHvN9uKJr naI6Th5QprqjPsQHSQCq0JStIxZkPTXvRCfhjDg7inKKF5ve1LRzm8UnLVWJdMPxek+v G/hA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=vlQ6ddqxun7jZGhxWiQuzkC07w/YVUWaugTv+nHxNTc=; b=IcSArBIfMDjSXj+vN/53v1egzS719wbVx1vxjQIXqF04CcIm6xq//PPHjXU63M1ZQG /nUfDS9DhY1nylMFR5iJ2dO/w2b1SKX/tFAwveLXprHalub1749tLFPNEWyCmeZSU9MJ vD0PVw+Nhst19/B1bdIN5rDWMQh4yXk8uPXsAenDxquexAgHbgePcskRF9pvgEChK1fN +KbQDel2E0suCu5Cjs9rXqCeb3c7sQjeLJ4rtsyopx1zuw3qipsHqxdrxoaSgIA4SVZp hub1sfncM7Ovi4Tw9gnpmuYQn0lqcMiRxBbPSwB1hnMb4aFKGJiivw+3ARpsoVUbCEvN m0Og== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533AFN27+YyT/6kKfTKZAJ+7HQBcse0Nwf1ify/MOJcOK7WkCgU0 NpyvT7QVFgH3/y8KTZ7ysTAdnx28AAXtqgJb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJza3W3kIfwnPXERaYnGI6tY9UQHZN1hQvfjCTYTneJLGoE+Wnq6FzfzJizCTQwm279OBArZcA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:edb0:: with SMTP id h16mr102974783qvr.17.1637603831472; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q20sm4921192qkl.53.2021.11.22.09.57.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:57:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------k0s9sX9cfcGHvyiNgyDY8yoT" Message-ID: <9693709a-b12c-15b7-845c-7e20d3a2340b@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 12:57:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:57:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------k0s9sX9cfcGHvyiNgyDY8yoT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/19/2021 1:30 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > > > On 11/19/2021 9:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom. >> >> On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> The chairs would like to make clear the following points: >>> >>> >>> 1. >>> >>>     There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that >>>     have been proposed. >>> >>> 2. >>> >>>     There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move >>> forward. >>> >>> 3. >>> >>>     There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the >>>     basis of our decision making. >>> >>> 4. >>> >>>     For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. >>> >>> >>> The question for us now is what sort of text to include. Joel’s >>> proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in >>> the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections >>> to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start? >>> >>> >>> If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be >>> accompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to >>> what those would be. >>> >>> >>> If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. >>> >>> Could you please respond by Tuesday? >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian and Eliot >>> >>> >>> >> Joel's text: >> >>>     The following principles are understood to be important to >>>     the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >>>     either change these principles, or significantly change the >>>     way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >>>     particular attention to >>>     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >>>         of the RFC series; and >>>     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >>>         comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > > I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles are > understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a variant > of the text that I proposed before: > > The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph > of {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When > reviewing documents from the RSWG that  either change these > principles, or significantly change the  way they are realized, the > RSAB members are expected to pay  particular attention to > >     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of > the RFC series; and >     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment > in the larger community affected by the RFC Series > > -- Christian Huitema > > The text you keep referring to taken as a limit would severely constrain the independent series ability to publish non-technical commentary.  It might also prevent publication of documents from various RGs that are more sociological than technical specification.  E.g. GAIA, HRPC are probably not publishing "internet technical specifications", nor are most of the various documents we use to manage ourselves in any way technical specifications.    So this formulation is wrong or at least incomplete. >    The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >    Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >    from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >    standards documents. > > >> >> >> >> > --------------k0s9sX9cfcGHvyiNgyDY8yoT Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/19/2021 1:30 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:


On 11/19/2021 9:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom.

On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote:

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs would like to make clear the following points:


1.

    There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that
    have been proposed.

2.

    There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward.

3.

    There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the
    basis of our decision making.

4.

    For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required.


The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start?


If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be accompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to what those would be.


If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step.

Could you please respond by Tuesday?



Brian and Eliot



Joel's text:

    The following principles are understood to be important to
    the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that
    either change these principles, or significantly change the
    way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay
    particular attention to
    a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health
        of the RFC series; and
    b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and
        comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series

I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles are understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a variant of the text that I proposed before:

The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph of {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When reviewing documents from the RSWG that  either change these principles, or significantly change the  way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay  particular attention to

    a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the RFC series; and
    b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and  comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series

-- Christian Huitema



The text you keep referring to taken as a limit would severely constrain the independent series ability to publish non-technical commentary.  It might also prevent publication of documents from various RGs that are more sociological than technical specification.  E.g. GAIA, HRPC are probably not publishing "internet technical specifications", nor are most of the various documents we use to manage ourselves in any way technical specifications.    So this formulation is wrong or at least incomplete.

   The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting
   Internet technical specifications, including general contributions
   from the Internet research and engineering community as well as
   standards documents.










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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t9sm4864818qkp.110.2021.11.22.10.02.45 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:02:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9WNcRIhcn6JOKrcClsAXrpxZ" Message-ID: <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:02:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:02:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9WNcRIhcn6JOKrcClsAXrpxZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/19/2021 11:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > The chairs would like to make clear the following points: > > > 1. > > There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that > have been proposed. > > 2. > > There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward. > > 3. > > There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the > basis of our decision making. > > 4. > > For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. > > > The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s > proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in > the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections to > this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start? > This is a place to start, not to end, and needs strengthening. As a minimum, the RSAB needs to be able to "reject" based on principles, simply not "pay particular attention to them" as his text reads. E.g. RSAB: "We've paid particular attention and we believe this document harms the principles" RSWG:  "That's good, but we followed the process, so approve the document already". > > If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be accompanied > by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to what those > would be. > One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak analogy, this document we're working on is a constitution, while the RSWG/RSAB will be writing laws subject to that constitution. Unlike say the process in California, changing the constitution should require a bit more work than a simple consensus of a small group of people, and the work of this group should not be able to be undone by the RSWG saying "we're replacing ED 1 with a new document and we followed the process". > > If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. > > Could you please respond by Tuesday? > I went back and reviewed the bidding and I don't think that anyone adequately responded to either of Joel's or Stephens questions about how changes they want to make would brush up against principles.  I'm unlikely to get to even rough consensus without someone stepping up and answering those questions. Later, Mike > > > Brian and Eliot > > > > --------------9WNcRIhcn6JOKrcClsAXrpxZ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/19/2021 11:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Dear Colleagues,


The chairs would like to make clear the following points:


  1. There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that have been proposed.

  2. There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forward.

  3. There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the basis of our decision making.

  4. For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required.


The question for us now is what sort of text to include.  Joel’s proposal is interesting.   Some people who do not want principles in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objections to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start?

This is a place to start, not to end, and needs strengthening.   As a minimum, the RSAB needs to be able to "reject" based on principles, simply not "pay particular attention to them" as his text reads.

E.g. RSAB: "We've paid particular attention and we believe this document harms the principles" RSWG:  "That's good, but we followed the process, so approve the document already".


If people agree, we note that Joel’s text would need to be accompanied by some principles, and the discussion would then turn to what those would be.

One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak analogy, this document we're working on is a constitution, while the RSWG/RSAB will be writing laws subject to that constitution.  Unlike say the process in California, changing the constitution should require a bit more work than a simple consensus of a small group of people, and the work of this group should not be able to be undone by the RSWG saying "we're replacing ED 1 with a new document and we followed the process".



If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step.

Could you please respond by Tuesday?


I went back and reviewed the bidding and I don't think that anyone adequately responded to either of Joel's or Stephens questions about how changes they want to make would brush up against principles.  I'm unlikely to get to even rough consensus without someone stepping up and answering those questions.  

Later, Mike




Brian and Eliot





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Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <9693709a-b12c-15b7-845c-7e20d3a2340b@nthpermutation.com> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: <9693709a-b12c-15b7-845c-7e20d3a2340b@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.60 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Ko1v YCJ+auuXxWWr+3isCTLO2NIhLJd3vZdNtZEKARqESxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVYCXtXThaA7B1BnC/ovCXH5otTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WVsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgGI409Uexq5zP1TE60A1w4Q 0ZBAV7LIDgKt16YaqSpnb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlgPaPZMmAzPnjlURMq+aUYG3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdla+KPp 6BzG0JcLw1kqtrx8yoi3jYpYlXHlQW6wfUo9AWRRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Zb+XoNe76wKNk51xS 7dQBTPoPFZIShBSdpVJW5HbjQTCUIzbw71BPKv8cPtVshTSLr6YHJu91A3avrF49rf9JcoEpejCA XczArXyV+OFXiMtbLPp9n350Mbemie5JWWm/MpxAyl4q1x5O0+PBD/gPmWjXVA9S7TnWXDlmMpVd cwCFwrnT0GQK/7labXRdXAB+MS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 21:17:55 -0000 On 11/22/2021 9:57 AM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/19/2021 1:30 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >> >> >> On 11/19/2021 9:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Just for information, Joel's text now at the bottom. >>> >>> On 19.11.21 17:58, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> Joel's text: >>> >>>>     The following principles are understood to be important to >>>>     the RFC series.  When reviewing documents from the RSWG that >>>>     either change these principles, or significantly change the >>>>     way they are realized, the RSAB members are expected to pay >>>>     particular attention to >>>>     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health >>>>         of the RFC series; and >>>>     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >>>>         comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series >> >> I would propose an amendment. Instead of "The following principles >> are understood to be important to the RFC series" I would insert a >> variant of the text that I proposed before: >> >> The basic principles of the series are listed in the first paragraph >> of {{#introduction}} and have been followed for 50 years. When >> reviewing documents from the RSWG that  either change these >> principles, or significantly change the  way they are realized, the >> RSAB members are expected to pay  particular attention to >> >>     a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of >> the RFC series; and >>     b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and >> comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> >> > > The text you keep referring to taken as a limit would severely > constrain the independent series ability to publish non-technical > commentary.  It might also prevent publication of documents from > various RGs that are more sociological than technical specification.  > E.g. GAIA, HRPC are probably not publishing "internet technical > specifications", nor are most of the various documents we use to > manage ourselves in any way technical specifications.    So this > formulation is wrong or at least incomplete. > >>    The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >>    Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >>    from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >>    standards documents. > Mike, I am not trying to put restrictions the independent series or the IRTF. On the other hand, I am trying to avoid writing up an essay on RFC principles, and as much as possible stick to text that was already agreed upon and published in previous RFC. The text in the draft's introduction was directly copied from RFC 8729, which itself copied it from RFC 5741, and is as close as possible to "already agreed upon principles." I understand the fear that the RFC would evolve towards only publishing agreed upon standards, to the detriment of dissenting opinions and other sources of documents. This is not a new issue, and was in fact the motivation for RFC 1796 many years ago. I believe that the current draft provides specific guidelines against that, by embracing the current set of streams and ensuring their representation in the RSAB. To your specific point, the definition of the RFC series as publishing as providing "Internet technical specifications" is ancient and, in my opinion, desirable. It is probably quite central to the state of the series. The April 1st RFC may be jokes, but they are specific kind of jokes, very much related to Internet specifications. The HRPC is not just about human rights in general, but about human right aspects of protocol considerations -- the charter says that its productions will include "internet drafts some of which may be put on IRTF RFC stream. These will concern progress of the project, methodology, and will define any possible protocol considerations." That seems well within the scope of "Internet technical specifications". The same can be said of pretty much every IRTF research group, including GAIA, whose potential recommendation on the energy footprint of Internet protocols fall very much within the scope of Internet technical specifications. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Mon Nov 22 13:58:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFCB3A0831 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rmxUFLHt_F3f for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DD313A0833 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id y7so15351010plp.0 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=a9RTShX8tCPef3bHQq0XRtJx/PU0wY+M8ilBHfUXO0Y=; b=dtQX1X05OqR8SH065qn7KRdc9fmpSRwLAEwSNRowyOBthry+4fA/r51xmT4tbYdgtd qJq2or8cm9P7D5cAw3Riof/U4vwQfhr+dVhXuXgUg2jjKlwhPKnWbJuCT+DAgx64CrYK 9mkC+qFifw44GzOypvFik2EEMDK+qldaBkljm8YY6vdyFBQDi/hkr14N0mbYPyzqC/vM yXH7Yjx0vKirt+sQAOLLIZ6Ue4nZh5J9SFzOUGzhZuSopN7kBBSKsRO5Ux7BQ28GdM4s eK7yPaVSdRMSQRhZr8W5JFSawi8mNQTTU1sCIIBfMQZATDif1xv3DeesSeqzxvISHTAt hBBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=a9RTShX8tCPef3bHQq0XRtJx/PU0wY+M8ilBHfUXO0Y=; b=S15NBAWECviHF48wMiesFKsEjqPPaJmkUW5hSj1+Kwmn/il+gwmqX1Hnk+lpFmp5pp C0TGq4mzdUmhMvTUwB1mLgmr9rKpybVQ7EydahnO/jTWE7Yv43n0WK8H2ntMzgP/DGD+ zRZkALQ5dUAgk0lmEbVqLLZEWldFfyjvBAM288SgWpaJQAEeeapTPksKcXk+A8WiEvx3 IHbhwPCLLIFZYCp6VE1BbOgZ+0BiXWgK4yr3Sz4ns1IKCoVBq0kieJsFdxOFXILdRY+/ qlRf9Xfa4QxxiDb766jmKlycYPOYsgOh8VVqQKwpvuh+iGatrKQTroV/JJYhZnCH2b74 PNeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533F+EfMyxP17dI1Xgz6Z6cePa7G2BSDzDIU3Fv3NtsPwttMybLe o60TiJLEmrxCiNrvlvUdgPKklEy2Rervmg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNviKissU5PMf9aDuAklkO32S+8ioH/kPDI2E8w9Mp2okxuy7jAgaBOnpt484PoJahU/BqrA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1a88:: with SMTP id ng8mr34814616pjb.180.1637618329195; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lr6sm9028851pjb.0.2021.11.22.13.58.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:58:48 -0800 (PST) To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:58:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 21:58:54 -0000 On 23-Nov-21 07:02, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/19/2021 11:58 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> The chairs would like to make clear the following points: >> >> >> 1. >> >> There is no consensus to include in the draft the principles that = have been proposed. >> >> 2. >> >> There is no consensus for the document as it stands to move forwar= d. >> >> 3. >> >> There are a lot of entrenched views, and rough consensus is the ba= sis of our decision making. >> >> 4. >> >> For the document to go forward, some compromise will be required. >> >> >> The question for us now is what sort of text to include.=C2=A0 Joel=E2= =80=99s proposal is interesting. =C2=A0 Some people who do not want princ= iples in the document have indicated that they do not have strong objecti= ons to this text. Do others agree that this text is a good place to start= ? >> > This is a place to start, not to end, and needs strengthening. As a min= imum, the RSAB needs to be able to "reject" based on principles, simply n= ot "pay particular attention to them" as his text reads. If the community, at some point in the future, wants to overturn a basic = principle, they will do so. If they have to, they'll do so by abolishing = the RSAB, just as the community of today has effectively decided to aboli= sh the RSE, RSAG (again) and RSOC (like the IETF did in 1992, by drastica= lly reducing the authority of the IAB). I don't see what we gain by setti= ng the RSAB up for a fall. >=20 > E.g. RSAB: "We've paid particular attention and we believe this documen= t harms the principles" RSWG:=C2=A0 "That's good, but we followed the pro= cess, so approve the document already". >=20 >> >> If people agree, we note that Joel=E2=80=99s text would need to be acc= ompanied by someprinciples, and the discussion would then turn to what th= ose would be. >> > One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in Joe= l's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally subject to c= hange within this process.=C2=A0 To use a fairly weak analogy, this docum= ent we're working on is a constitution, while the RSWG/RSAB will be writi= ng laws subject to that constitution. Unlike say the process in Californi= a, changing the constitution should require a bit more work than a simple=20 consensus of a small group of people, and the work of this group should n= ot be able to be undone by the RSWG saying "we're replacing ED 1 with a n= ew document and we followed the process". The analogy to the US concept of a constitution has been obvious to me fo= r some time. That doesn't mean it's the right way to go. A constitution t= hat is too hard to change can easily become a liability. Brian >=20 >> >> If people disagree, we would invite other approaches as a next step. >> >> Could you please respond by Tuesday? >> >=20 > I went back and reviewed the bidding and I don't think that anyone adeq= uately responded to either of Joel's or Stephens questions about how chan= ges they want to make would brush up against principles.=C2=A0 I'm unlike= ly to get to even rough consensus without someone stepping up and answeri= ng those questions. >=20 > Later, Mike >=20 >=20 >> >> >> Brian and Eliot From nobody Mon Nov 22 15:54:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB573A0A17 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYpdqQ6UVKih for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC38B3A0A12 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id 14so25500380ioe.2 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LlG7XrY6jEy8VeuZxKshRYcrZBc1xzOvzC6lbwn9LDE=; b=Gl5deeoB1blaxdUrkKHhCqBNIvnhScxf69+1HJBNDlZSSk3ds3CmBV2++a6kHCoCrR Rb4h4Mo1PqQPVbGp1tv1Y1VZ/RTJ/qzSGPO/w5ckRR34GWUwqI6g9dSCbdmj9TicHPIk gKMiwR3i9KsUPvsxUMOA/tlEfS7wLGlqI7SJ8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LlG7XrY6jEy8VeuZxKshRYcrZBc1xzOvzC6lbwn9LDE=; b=cfXdV9Jz/GHYLg/mBiahhG0aEtE2mtGR30Gnp+Qb2XW4GaRPF+nsBMK1jY1uqljs20 n6DmmNlkqq9mSImXof3JnRU5QQ+umFYF/+tLKvpcf0MKE+Y55M41xaV2eNfw+9CCo6V2 ybrAYuioT6IDs90PuUkzTVUxuvm9UiQz/xY1Ynd9/rKb09+iAmZbzxHALcxN2hPsQNJ5 999gNTso5yKO98WelGuGUHscStCFLPLaJkJDlAmheUNxbnBYrhgUNpM3H8q69pWtZ18s PEeJ2OA0NegzmspxOqbYZqqeszm8H+kh342jPkJxhim55QMcufoLwP2K7oKeyvCRwUyq jQrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532GxNaYIyt8PzVWguieEzoU7ruWhVs6lJdRayNEUZWj2l/sv2n+ cDj+qwTcbVOT/27Lcjo+1EIqyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJybUuOnGw8m311DQpwSTphK1gbPhiA3gE0HPhHHUTYQHoSjpsI2FwD23VVXQccVv89FK9epjg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:85d5:: with SMTP id e21mr923364ios.51.1637625258493; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q1sm8761284ilu.51.2021.11.22.15.54.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:54:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:54:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 23:54:23 -0000 On 11/19/21 12:18 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > This wording assumes that the answer to "what principles" is only the > ones we adopted in passing earlier. Clarifying question: what are "the ones we adopted in passing earlier"? Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:00:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443513A0A50 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWmg2yUWbYj6 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A2EA3A0A31 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id k1so19868321ilo.7 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/Fttl5TLrpWT8RG6bmhKN1uNQtJeyT5dhf+tBtY/Etg=; b=VJfx+WhojQ0oeNwBZkSRPvS12cOhNiD08VSmq4ws69lW8XS4L6a2xGJyNnoooUo7Ir NaqrZPOjkxq6b8FEgS3DfoqgeKnSiUlDp2auniH02ww3ZQSS45SjW/x/ukCiXX/TajAK a9kYvfr/tSKnoQs7PQHmMNPYHazli+Me+kudk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/Fttl5TLrpWT8RG6bmhKN1uNQtJeyT5dhf+tBtY/Etg=; b=CVx5ko8hh6p84EyHc22krqLkeKUdnscPDzE1Lr0rB4OtWWO9hUYa4j7QfPBNWXOf5D oAA4Rso6PL9XUQ3ZdMUSM8nZ8EFFJ1nG+A25TIT/x/Jc/rY81Ukc5U/kjhPA1YHzf9q2 uwe/Xl0Pite9Uw23aWeLDeGuqGlP9viNRoTO/1XsLQpmHOt3JkC2Qu0/rbT2swGw3aIU QtLSwRR7qLQuDM6TcLq3PB0dQWfdyEp/86UvsCyR58Wv7r5JkLmnxn9QRpb+OtGvcrQI ID+wZcMhM+pK/qWqKSOMgr33VoypHKCFgrK774h3yHbtKucUtcY8+59iYo5vg9Z950Su llmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Xg7u+OIxcxfYorF8uRDTkDjmzFE4/xkiBX4DY2cytJ9TES5rp WSUdPwHbjxkcBbmOcFrC7W4quA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywNJplXBL3M9F7gPcVYHk9vnXmuLYCVzykfSD4JE6NV5fuNNSYoh/Ov6r200LTdyAxgDzQuQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:b23:: with SMTP id e3mr1018257ilu.227.1637625612854; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f4sm5776436ilr.79.2021.11.22.16.00.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:00:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:00:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:00:19 -0000 On 11/18/21 1:15 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Please see below. > >> On 18. Nov 2021, at 03:49, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> On 11/17/21 6:21 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >>>> Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not >>>> listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially >>>> in order of publication. It would also cause problems for >>>> external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and >>>> organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a >>>> sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a >>>> professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and >>>> we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of >>>> documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 >>>> and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a >>>> problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk >>>> violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the >>>> convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by >>>> them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies >>>> component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates >>>> to it. >>> That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what we should do. >>> I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the text is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list overlap. I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the quip about "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact that for the last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were in fact the work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers have long used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, SIGCOM or USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now we stick to the short formulation in RFC 8729: >>> The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >>> Internet technical specifications, including general contributions >>> from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >>> standards documents. >> >> Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05#section-1 >> > > The second sentence proposed by Christian ("RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the Internet.”) is written down as part of the IETF mission statement (RFC3935): It's also part of RFC 8729 and in -06 of our Internet-Draft I incorporated that sentence into the first paragraph of the Introduction: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06#section-1 > "Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, > know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on the > issue. Part of this principle is our commitment to making our > documents, our WG mailing lists, our attendance lists, and our > meeting minutes publicly available on the Internet.” I do wonder whether it's a good idea to incorporate IETF-specific text into our Internet-Draft. Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:10:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8563A0AC9 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R97R9OTDSPxH for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 343823A0AA2 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hyl0T0QLgz1nv1P; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:10:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637626249; bh=bWAL8GJSWMryQBN3GhwLBCSZ7qfhA/cO2gEFVpJd2KA=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=SxcQuYhqA/XnMaAAlc1ftmtuuZFRcaG8q5GonSYQdCIDvuSZGpT1qad07d/6oPw5N c/1PpCJzhc9yno+4nEyeafklXMIXWj4oaEYbaUeSoSV5mf+dC8ZJqMy36ykHccnU6I TZpB/Enuk3MRUgpfx5gUDTwnglWI9ItnER4PWfAU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hyl0S3zp5z1nsXf; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:10:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:10:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:10:54 -0000 I am sorry if my phrasing suggested something other than my intent. We adopted introductory text, and you captured it. We did not discuss whether those were principles, descriptions, complete or incomplete, or ... Now, some folks are saying those are the principles, and we should not discuss adding any others. That seems to me an odd sequence of argumentation. Yours, Joel On 11/22/2021 6:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/19/21 12:18 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> This wording assumes that the answer to "what principles" is only the >> ones we adopted in passing earlier. > > Clarifying question: what are "the ones we adopted in passing earlier"? > > Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:17:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7DC3A0AEC for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNrg_BRUVy2j for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05A9C3A0AD7 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id l8so19935604ilv.3 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY1bh9edMLgLQWOepejX8o9l9WfhoBXhLSF3YEpFiyQ=; b=TE43dm9HXFKOEY4At5sQBoZmTB4vVcx1uRgDwDdEM/kkXN5MCYOzRPQTI0VTTr5+Zw lsjSeP3YGAqf/xHU1SAd17mULPi5xSllNz69dQUv6geObLk/01zqDjyLbPg5gmdppKwH oPfoe2KRNoL1GFs5KkrpGaJzphsawamtEyH9c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY1bh9edMLgLQWOepejX8o9l9WfhoBXhLSF3YEpFiyQ=; b=WUDhwKfpPeN+JdTnsxnlH6yey0h05K4Sveky7sf7DFIY04jgosIhWzBTmDAAPBMVOI lrLXl4ZAQd4dUi2+HaORW3zg/RFH3Bilsf48x1LvyUem4Ju2I4MMAgL3JovoZ9P+ydRX eET818fl4sTmCvA11HV5sbEs10onLezqtWY6bOs8A482NF9PKC/CuqMekYym7aEuWYk6 IJ3uhO8YsFROm2igfq0fqYvcz+sCf3E/10T012MAuCiy8BBO9pI3y2p4Y/VHmL/VhoQW D8FK2ADuQUsXfgh6qhut/Py1c9nPldesr1XyuMgL5eOQhPUANwofrbt3FL9RWYRwGZew /9hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Q11oDTkWaQFonACs4ZHHch49vHGkNTtkjJuFXVBuYB2z2fpOd r4hk55wrHV7RCZKiwLevCPKfLg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyI47EeqROBEoGwH5SMJvwcUNH6SJBf/fH5/l+ZS5odLJxzWOWjTJeY2K+NWAjFPmEVuE29qg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1561:: with SMTP id k1mr1394962ilu.36.1637626664128; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d4sm6582248ilq.76.2021.11.22.16.17.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:17:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4920f262-21b9-6cd2-0166-b917882047a4@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:17:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:17:48 -0000 On 11/18/21 5:09 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > As I argued earlier,[1] defining principles for the series aren't a good fit for this body. We're supposed to be coming up with a process to create policy, not guidance for that policy itself. The RSWG has better oversight than this body, in that it has multiple layers and doesn't depend on a frankly fragile agreement in the community to function. I also would like to get this work done and move on, and I suspect establishing principles worthy of the series is going to take at least several months. This strongly matches my understanding of our remit and that's one reason I signed on to editing our document. Personally as editor I am comfortable defining a process to create policy, but I am not comfortable defining policy itself (or active guidance for policy - the line between them is quite fuzzy, in my mind at least). Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:30:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9AB3A0B68 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74PFy2PV2J2a for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46BD53A0B53 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id v23so25691391iom.12 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VsTK7YcvFpJ2RQMxML9Q6SH0lV//o/+yos0QiAOLgZk=; b=NS+rCYqR1X8MBk6upVqmasY4XGTS9QPal6s3C4lOXJMns2JSj2LRC4iPEO61FbbX8o hSwvB4612hwHaGKa4KVrdAB32NOpokEcc7JXhLKjl8HkBGfVm88Wop+NpVEhWHor8cAh HzR5upJ9OH3D9x6Vw0fMiDzPBrYo/jboHjL10= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VsTK7YcvFpJ2RQMxML9Q6SH0lV//o/+yos0QiAOLgZk=; b=bJp4VHlcTEDLFYMRGfPD564241LmNhsVEAGKjbwHyKvWvIIyQHvjRY+jmzipU/8qtK P7EdK1kgxnRPyf4bQzKRNC403OBWeVRBqp2kTD5m39hmIBSMZH/TEcVnGfTAH4XjZVEx gkqpx+ZOCpejuxl+4XuyVuSAOBJvT+ltm8QcZQ73gE6obL8BWR2PiuT1qeFeU+l6HnPP 2FIPgAu2q5EuHe/lyysXSSv+pa+cmL6zZ6Au1KnZ9WHt333qEzkGnR6eHC0d1mcNBw3t j5CWedfaZi/cEbDSKB8gEdmTr+eFi1ZTh4oxnaZsh6yxBPS/8rNb1p4lt9kSFc+TbSPw sEpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Thq8gnLA7MmqU8WLCgxSvDqHI5wUpXeZm2DnEP6MqYw5qGmHQ pY+URhgZ+sn42SF+EE+avRD4nUUr8PI6BQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbMEsAg6CddF6nke2xz6ZmaV/koMPKimRLVrtE3BwIk/kIgApnXd5p4Y0LmXlw5/DNuo/b4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e60e:: with SMTP id g14mr1170590ioh.28.1637627433922; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u24sm5981796ior.20.2021.11.22.16.30.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:30:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:30:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Joel Halpern Direct , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:30:39 -0000 Thanks for the clarification. On 11/22/21 5:10 PM, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: > I am sorry if my phrasing suggested something other than my intent. > We adopted introductory text, and you captured it.  We did not discuss > whether those were principles, descriptions, complete or incomplete, or ... > Now, some folks are saying those are the principles, and we should not > discuss adding any others. > That seems to me an odd sequence of argumentation. I'll reiterate what I've said before: I think it is safest and best to incorporate only those "principles" (if we want to call them that) which were present in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model (RFC 5620, RFC 6635, RFC 8729) and related documents (e.g., RFC 8729). By adding new principles, we're going beyond what was deemed necessary for previous versions of the RFC Editor Model and, I believe, beyond the remit of this Program. Personally I don't think the advocates for adding more principles at this time have provided great arguments for doing so, and I think that adding more principles should be done following the process we're setting up (RSWG/RSAB/etc.), not as a precondition to establishing that process. Peter > On 11/22/2021 6:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/19/21 12:18 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> This wording assumes that the answer to "what principles" is only the >>> ones we adopted in passing earlier. >> >> Clarifying question: what are "the ones we adopted in passing earlier"? >> >> Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:57:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90E13A0BC4 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bNwZRQlXKW9L for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C20E23A0BC0 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hym1q41zfz1nv1m; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637629023; bh=I4zER42zgXZ3ac8PzeucvNcQgzAevPFirTNM3y6l0x8=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Kh23KwEmOAWPo4bvBZmzWxSfWL26Kb3WY79EMDQHV6H4VNLEnPfw7KpJkN06F0aAB lSiZWA07h6B+FxrMJ9Ud8U0mpz9b7aqvYSA51bEkZ2sEIql5+TKsgFVoBaNeU9UgRu hptg8+nDkoZOu2/SJ6+TTGqsvCD0Qt7kcC3ZOKwI= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hym1q09Rkz1nscW; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:57:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:57:09 -0000 I would disagree. There are significant principles that were accepted and assumed, but not written into those documents. Maybe they should have been, but changing history is outside our capabilities. I expect that some of those principles are things that people want to change. But that does not mean they were not accepted principles of the series. From a more pragmatic perspective, there are a number of us taht feel that discussing those principles, and writing down the ones we can agree on, would be helpful for the resulting RSWG process. There are others who disagree. I do not see that pointing to "what we wrote before" helps find equity. Yours, Joel On 11/22/2021 7:30 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Thanks for the clarification. > > On 11/22/21 5:10 PM, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: >> I am sorry if my phrasing suggested something other than my intent. >> We adopted introductory text, and you captured it.  We did not discuss >> whether those were principles, descriptions, complete or incomplete, >> or ... >> Now, some folks are saying those are the principles, and we should not >> discuss adding any others. >> That seems to me an odd sequence of argumentation. > > I'll reiterate what I've said before: I think it is safest and best to > incorporate only those "principles" (if we want to call them that) which > were present in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model (RFC 5620, RFC > 6635, RFC 8729) and related documents (e.g., RFC 8729). By adding new > principles, we're going beyond what was deemed necessary for previous > versions of the RFC Editor Model and, I believe, beyond the remit of > this Program. Personally I don't think the advocates for adding more > principles at this time have provided great arguments for doing so, and > I think that adding more principles should be done following the process > we're setting up (RSWG/RSAB/etc.), not as a precondition to establishing > that process. > > Peter > >> On 11/22/2021 6:54 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 11/19/21 12:18 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> This wording assumes that the answer to "what principles" is only >>>> the ones we adopted in passing earlier. >>> >>> Clarifying question: what are "the ones we adopted in passing earlier"? >>> >>> Peter > From nobody Mon Nov 22 16:58:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AC73A0BC7 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:58:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIZMowHfzZAc for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 205533A0BC4 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpK8C-000PUj-UQ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:57:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:57:50 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre , Mirja Kuehlewind cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:58:04 -0000 --On Monday, November 22, 2021 17:00 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > I do wonder whether it's a good idea to incorporate > IETF-specific text into our Internet-Draft. FWIW, I think it is not. And see my earlier note about "technical specification" and the very specific meaning of that term in RFC 2026. john From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:23:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02493A0C01 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:23:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=QX0HgQ9U; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=C8Ykoq+U Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3bq1cgM113Sg for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2CC73A0C00 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7185C0103; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:23:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=S JwOVYvpUu1Q+TgS8h2DF1T/tEUOTpscJEeys9+gG/g=; b=QX0HgQ9UyEislEu2Y Ui+91DbvquStHDq8/0Vs8AvueTykncKVf0+L22uxoXT5xvNyHY0O8pvQBxEoqjz4 pIQoOvDsT/WH8vOtjBDjTSN/b+hpXlCjw28oyXLMAS0rXhqE8s/ccSi/3ey4geaK k5oy9pz3C7OxvII2aKyTEZJRVemZkFycpUHrz/4QIr7H6RJumZtP8gPVjtVgxtzL ybAhAtpLoce9oSE1Ya3LCIT/WfJeMAcAlAYEdirxCGgSeK75i0EK9kGMzcCQYtbJ 5Ztqaz0ii+XqQTWcRJ0aRUajTNXhZJ9JgZF3L4pDOX2LM5CFa0t78NNg2vqdRw1A ICtBg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=SJwOVYvpUu1Q+TgS8h2DF1T/tEUOTpscJEeys9+gG /g=; b=C8Ykoq+UvTywN/P1OKxngu7xRo6CSlA365RNHjL2yGuB/3UC+CZEOVMjM HYZC4O9uMJeHyTWE2jOVTGkP1BU/22us/OFrSh92kMT1lZRsn4aJL7kM4Nwfs/vu Gx3DflRHkFPsXBnd4l3hu+XMwigttFasTKnQ6rKE5+bgtZxf2NtX9q1vlvZpz4C9 JXBYeB6jfWk2ved2FnRejwVsCSO2YQamrl4ReyGWXz3O8OSOElUBmoW7/h+6YgzV Zn1pMMqaQfSy5KP3jFSQ5/PcyAWn1M12X/uObYjsjO0KgHtFPeGMXZjgZBWiIAOn j0hxr8IwyjD004032OjnpG70TwzOA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeehgddvjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvght vghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeugeefvdekteefge ekkeeggffgueetteehgedvgfffveegkefgleehtdegteefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrh drihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:23:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:23:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:23:29 -0000 On 11/22/21 5:57 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I would disagree.  There are significant principles that were accepted > and assumed, but not written into those documents.  Maybe they should > have been, but changing history is outside our capabilities. > > I expect that some of those principles are things that people want to > change.   But that does not mean they were not accepted principles of > the series. Unfortunately, we have no way, post facto, to determine what was an implicitly accepted principle of the series at some point or points in the past, nor by whom (I'd assume that there might have been just as much disagreement in the past as there is now). > From a more pragmatic perspective, there are a number of us taht feel > that discussing those principles, and writing down the ones we can agree > on, would be helpful for the resulting RSWG process.   There are others > who disagree. > I do not see that pointing to "what we wrote before" helps find equity. Although I'm not sure what "equity" means in this context, I would posit that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was accepted at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise - and also gets us closer to consensus in the here and now (regarding the process issues that are clearly within the remit of this Program) than trying to reach agreement on a set of policy-guiding principles that are a source of significant contention and show no sign of becoming less contentious. From an even more pragmatic perspective, we don't have forever here: the current arrangement (with a Temporary RFC Series Project Manager whose contract expires in March 2022, not to mention a lame-duck RSOC and an IAB that could lose patience with us if progress grinds to a halt) is unsustainable and I think it's incumbent upon us to proceed with all due speed to concluding our work on the process definition, leaving policy definition to the RSWG/RSAB. But I repeat myself. Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:39:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5363A0C2D for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:39:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMom_UZAgfJe for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05923A0C20 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HymyD56X1z1pK6F; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:39:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637631540; bh=Etzo5Mr8jv6j59bH/8+Gjx5R4y5hA0LkAKk2ww0ZHV4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=TWWwL9QOno+ESLY80aF7sYVxR5Y2Rz1Lgv6e/x4fp97Vm/doMjFFZThUfu9bW7D6W Gflt6aen11+ihpd0r/JLQYHgWzAjjM+O0fJu6OBcsyARrk+rUXlIs8AYH9emC4KDdx c0wOpn5aInV5ezJarm+fuuwhhG1J+SEX5FGnRzWM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HymyD1RvCz1pK6D; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:39:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:38:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:39:06 -0000 I wonder if the time argument is misleading. If we do not agree on the principles, I have trouble seeing how the interview process can actually describe what the series being advised by the RSCE actually is. To take an extreme example, an advisor advising a wiki-based dynamic description of ongoing work is a very different task than an advisor advising the historic RFC series. So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which I hope we don't) that we will promptly have to have the debate in the RSWG before we can begin searching for the RSCE. Yours, Joel On 11/22/2021 8:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/22/21 5:57 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I would disagree.  There are significant principles that were accepted >> and assumed, but not written into those documents.  Maybe they should >> have been, but changing history is outside our capabilities. >> >> I expect that some of those principles are things that people want to >> change.   But that does not mean they were not accepted principles of >> the series. > > Unfortunately, we have no way, post facto, to determine what was an > implicitly accepted principle of the series at some point or points in > the past, nor by whom (I'd assume that there might have been just as > much disagreement in the past as there is now). > >>  From a more pragmatic perspective, there are a number of us taht feel >> that discussing those principles, and writing down the ones we can >> agree on, would be helpful for the resulting RSWG process.   There are >> others who disagree. >> I do not see that pointing to "what we wrote before" helps find equity. > > Although I'm not sure what "equity" means in this context, I would posit > that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was accepted > at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise - and also gets us > closer to consensus in the here and now (regarding the process issues > that are clearly within the remit of this Program) than trying to reach > agreement on a set of policy-guiding principles that are a source of > significant contention and show no sign of becoming less contentious. > > From an even more pragmatic perspective, we don't have forever here: > the current arrangement (with a Temporary RFC Series Project Manager > whose contract expires in March 2022, not to mention a lame-duck RSOC > and an IAB that could lose patience with us if progress grinds to a > halt) is unsustainable and I think it's incumbent upon us to proceed > with all due speed to concluding our work on the process definition, > leaving policy definition to the RSWG/RSAB. > > But I repeat myself. > > Peter From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:39:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851A63A0C20 for ; 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Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:39:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <21cd4b5c-3ba7-45ba-b1cc-ee425b1e464d@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:38:40 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:39:14 -0000 On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, at 12:23, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > I would posit that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was accepted > at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise I would be comfortable with taking existing text (such as what we already have) on the basis that it is "agreed", provided that we recognize that any previous agreement does not constrain the execution of this process aside from it being necessary to ensure that changes are purposeful. It's OK to emphasize that these are things we believe to be important and that particular attention be paid to them. It's OK to insist that changes that relate to principles be explicitly acknowledged as such, so that we are sure that the choice is deliberate and not accidental. It's not OK to further protect things behind unspecified processes. No matter what might have been agreed at some time in the past, if we (collectively as a community) deliberately and explicitly decide to change a principle, then that change needs to follow the process we've defined in this document. Not some as-yet-unspecified process. From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:42:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4590F3A0C2D for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ctDei1UyirZJ for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFB563A0C1C for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id g28so16819223pgg.3 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DXgWDNNr0ivntPmizUaPUiGdxlcKpBt4SwgO3GchYZE=; b=CQd/kHunhD7t6x4/fHgcvNPcLeT/r2emhoQRPcXzqHtrG2VXw1oJcRR5Z5d7quw88E LAU66wfh0zh6ivzfZzE/uQ72M704/NC+PKLDiRnE/54v9zm21b4s8kWCJHOWUKEegPcp AwHN3KCLmkop74vQPF+kdxZlJjBbzdUU78n0drsTIzsPDjmHvuqcpdDeWKQ36RogSAZZ SEQURmmOr5nK6pMXIVkrpx1W01iE4MItdbiwN3pa9g35uZ9Jsy56lzFe0qD3+svPaHIt l4TNJDSNac1NqCjop1oC423ChoktmQYurip2WbhuexPL17vwbQM2Eu/B9MttR4pQWzxE DC+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DXgWDNNr0ivntPmizUaPUiGdxlcKpBt4SwgO3GchYZE=; b=7K4t48t4d7AirhD/mNqua9rkIEImYUPDnqf/uDa7BrjBTQfu4rfHc9Q8DhZVjNklUJ 6Nvz0sMdnvHKu66p7GbggU08Qz4xI1UfkMfbLS9AKPOCX4OhOLv/sG8sBwYvftstpepH 5jQE2HVBID/afVSsPC2Ny+efIfaE5N8RgRGLmAjK/+PgXru2+a0glM7qVAEQC0lhkwGt lmakxuuW9asdKBl/IgAVK6BBXZBelP2lCHjx6gVujKwvUGfcEaec3MATE1Hl4UGrJroM athFoaCdC74xQ5zuQU7NQe0vVVhiTLje1sbjMtCHjqpN6iHclWKdS6U6j/kI4KJQZk9g 06Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MW0B10mwlEyK/cfgB0x2hHmtF9VzxQJs7eqvuPHJ6Mu9P5ErE A0oZXyVg2Cog/eTLK+0+ubc3r1HcToiY4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwu3cFNPG0NyZP0J0g/8g+MDS+bu9IQpckuFi8NN4PbY7GKw3EJ14cz5109ty+8iIpnjX7zfA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1312:b0:4a4:e341:213a with SMTP id j18-20020a056a00131200b004a4e341213amr1232260pfu.57.1637631763411; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q11sm10282461pfk.192.2021.11.22.17.42.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:42:42 -0800 (PST) To: John C Klensin , Peter Saint-Andre , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:42:39 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:42:46 -0000 On 23-Nov-21 13:57, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Monday, November 22, 2021 17:00 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > >> I do wonder whether it's a good idea to incorporate >> IETF-specific text into our Internet-Draft. > > FWIW, I think it is not. I agree. Brian > And see my earlier note about > "technical specification" and the very specific meaning of that > term in RFC 2026. > > john > From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:43:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95A13A0C2D for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:43:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8rbBmxzc8_Sb for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C5133A0C1C for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hyn331qL9z1pK5Y; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:43:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637631791; bh=W4sRfFq3NPIoKWBTFtFkEXJ3V6G04huZB9tDo1U3B3Y=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=V5CqnSe9n3zh338nGHHLUW7zlr2F7B2abjyKqoIJO13FOPx8wHz0SkkMreMhIgSus NOVd4mkXabLuEDMQcUMBqsR1iWf2FwWixnqMuwmDa0Q5BdM1iYfAeBkvmMvqiyZ1W+ 3vafebJq0p+Hx23/UPo+FxBRHZJPNWvnyhigAb/M= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hyn325dkNz1nv1w; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:43:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5072e1b0-ab34-a3b4-743a-c17fb6bd4f09@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:43:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Thomson , rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <21cd4b5c-3ba7-45ba-b1cc-ee425b1e464d@www.fastmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <21cd4b5c-3ba7-45ba-b1cc-ee425b1e464d@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:43:16 -0000 I can not tell from your wording whether the description I provided for extra attention to changes of principle does or does not fall within what you consider acceptable. Yours, Joel On 11/22/2021 8:38 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, at 12:23, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> I would posit that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was accepted >> at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise > > I would be comfortable with taking existing text (such as what we already have) on the basis that it is "agreed", provided that we recognize that any previous agreement does not constrain the execution of this process aside from it being necessary to ensure that changes are purposeful. It's OK to emphasize that these are things we believe to be important and that particular attention be paid to them. It's OK to insist that changes that relate to principles be explicitly acknowledged as such, so that we are sure that the choice is deliberate and not accidental. It's not OK to further protect things behind unspecified processes. > > No matter what might have been agreed at some time in the past, if we (collectively as a community) deliberately and explicitly decide to change a principle, then that change needs to follow the process we've defined in this document. Not some as-yet-unspecified process. > From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:48:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AAB3A0C35 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5DSpAoFswby for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0C433A0C38 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE5B4B1B276; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWLdsBDk6IS1; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65A114B1B26D; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:48:30 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:48:26 +1300 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:48:37 -0000 > On 23/11/2021, at 2:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >=20 > If we do not agree on the principles, I have trouble seeing how the = interview process can actually describe what the series being advised by = the RSCE actually is. To take an extreme example, an advisor advising = a wiki-based dynamic description of ongoing work is a very different = task than an advisor advising the historic RFC series. >=20 > So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which I hope = we don't) that we will promptly have to have the debate in the RSWG = before we can begin searching for the RSCE. I don=E2=80=99t see this as relevant to the RSCE employment process. = There are multiple de facto characteristics of the RFC series that can = be explained to candidates whether or not they are encoded as de jure = principles. =20 Jay >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/22/2021 8:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/22/21 5:57 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> I would disagree. There are significant principles that were = accepted and assumed, but not written into those documents. Maybe they = should have been, but changing history is outside our capabilities. >>>=20 >>> I expect that some of those principles are things that people want = to change. But that does not mean they were not accepted principles of = the series. >> Unfortunately, we have no way, post facto, to determine what was an = implicitly accepted principle of the series at some point or points in = the past, nor by whom (I'd assume that there might have been just as = much disagreement in the past as there is now). >>> =46rom a more pragmatic perspective, there are a number of us taht = feel that discussing those principles, and writing down the ones we can = agree on, would be helpful for the resulting RSWG process. There are = others who disagree. >>> I do not see that pointing to "what we wrote before" helps find = equity. >> Although I'm not sure what "equity" means in this context, I would = posit that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was = accepted at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise - and also = gets us closer to consensus in the here and now (regarding the process = issues that are clearly within the remit of this Program) than trying to = reach agreement on a set of policy-guiding principles that are a source = of significant contention and show no sign of becoming less contentious. >> =46rom an even more pragmatic perspective, we don't have forever = here: the current arrangement (with a Temporary RFC Series Project = Manager whose contract expires in March 2022, not to mention a lame-duck = RSOC and an IAB that could lose patience with us if progress grinds to a = halt) is unsustainable and I think it's incumbent upon us to proceed = with all due speed to concluding our work on the process definition, = leaving policy definition to the RSWG/RSAB. >> But I repeat myself. >> Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 22 17:54:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D273A0C49 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hlf2PYTQ3FyK for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC1FE3A0C47 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id n15-20020a17090a160f00b001a75089daa3so792113pja.1 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DhQTE6RFbm4+yCYEqmis1mGCoPEujODwV4Q7IhbwHlo=; b=lPkw1/DyVx1ddAlKFX3MCi9gIKoR8hxI1pydtkTtkBRp3xwuMs8vDkfLDum/CAKe1O RZFMX210eIbvIKyHay6T49TBcSE4AudVhGGp89ds1oGC7behz0XXqISBMRhafq5YqJIO ADz8pCaJyWxtr5DiyQscR80Hyv8I0vaxRnl2ApUNvXvu0o1ve0Sr3Bbzp2UaNjNjyLvx LFvDFLqy+nYlBzS+Pou7pejIFFftSjU+qwwq5mOgUklu+TiEkXks4ofTVZuHrnQESFs7 3EhaV4c+SHCfzG0CLY/ZBA5/tlN81ackxs6Z0yQULcji/YPNKn0v5VHOlwRARnuf4emj ZhTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DhQTE6RFbm4+yCYEqmis1mGCoPEujODwV4Q7IhbwHlo=; b=OKmhcBemYqbrUyA1/9cG63U9rBRw9RthUeC3nhIwlIWRnXlg9OqXUf8rl/ugXfrJh5 LpQJMT4xnTn634VqlebW5LAqZF7nMbJJZtQ2Lwimc06aYg7YUHS5fHfEHWb2lGt/Vf6t updQmouPAzB97QxqU0MB3GqMkctBIAirMk3OySOCNoLI0G6v6gZaUteUVl5dBcHqsHVA vB/7TkW/TvrPHHKSScsAguePgINIjwoVRe+28/ajIvbutTPU3gyL9RWlO4Ri1bjmYNI3 zQKhOcuU6DpcaJyEvIgDqNm6z8GHmos4dJkuJE7kvwhtzF/STUbr0967tpMCC9UPBTOX KKtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532U3hz53oPEOXmuwpxNahZKNtqON4PEeuksd4pu2Id937TWbOIV 9WHCU+kmY3G3Z8QGNRm3iCiIHi/Be7PMqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzezouLaBq42HfQdeinjE8YujLfSS1VwcNMlm1hiWY6tJQgxwEsF9efQBPSLkYNQ5vD1vrPBg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a9cb:b0:143:d9ad:d154 with SMTP id b11-20020a170902a9cb00b00143d9add154mr2363922plr.6.1637632458021; Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o134sm9617167pfg.1.2021.11.22.17.54.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:54:17 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:54:14 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:54:21 -0000 On 23-Nov-21 14:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >=20 > If we do not agree on the principles,=20 I haven't seen any concrete evidence of that. I've seen evidence that we don't agree on burning a specific set of principles into a document about the organization of the RFC Editor function. > I have trouble seeing how the > interview process can actually describe what the series being advised b= y > the RSCE actually is. To take an extreme example, an advisor advisin= g > a wiki-based dynamic description of ongoing work is a very different > task than an advisor advising the historic RFC series. >=20 > So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which I hope we= > don't) that we will promptly have to have the debate in the RSWG before= > we can begin searching for the RSCE. Why? We have the role description already, and it includes advising the RSWG as well as the RPC. On the contrary, some advice from outside our little world might greatly assist discussing and formulating the principles. Brian >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/22/2021 8:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/22/21 5:57 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> I would disagree.=C2=A0 There are significant principles that were ac= cepted >>> and assumed, but not written into those documents.=C2=A0 Maybe they s= hould >>> have been, but changing history is outside our capabilities. >>> >>> I expect that some of those principles are things that people want to= >>> change.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But that does not mean they were not accepted pri= nciples of >>> the series. >> >> Unfortunately, we have no way, post facto, to determine what was an >> implicitly accepted principle of the series at some point or points in= >> the past, nor by whom (I'd assume that there might have been just as >> much disagreement in the past as there is now). >> >>> =C2=A0From a more pragmatic perspective, there are a number of us ta= ht feel >>> that discussing those principles, and writing down the ones we can >>> agree on, would be helpful for the resulting RSWG process.=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 There are >>> others who disagree. >>> I do not see that pointing to "what we wrote before" helps find equit= y. >> >> Although I'm not sure what "equity" means in this context, I would pos= it >> that "what we wrote before" at least gets us closer to what was accept= ed >> at that time than a post-facto mind-reading exercise - and also gets u= s >> closer to consensus in the here and now (regarding the process issues >> that are clearly within the remit of this Program) than trying to reac= h >> agreement on a set of policy-guiding principles that are a source of >> significant contention and show no sign of becoming less contentious. >> >> From an even more pragmatic perspective, we don't have forever here:= >> the current arrangement (with a Temporary RFC Series Project Manager >> whose contract expires in March 2022, not to mention a lame-duck RSOC >> and an IAB that could lose patience with us if progress grinds to a >> halt) is unsustainable and I think it's incumbent upon us to proceed >> with all due speed to concluding our work on the process definition, >> leaving policy definition to the RSWG/RSAB. >> >> But I repeat myself. >> >> Peter >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 22 19:07:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FB03A08C0 for ; 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Mon, 22 Nov 2021 22:07:24 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1371-g2296cc3491-fm-20211109.003-g2296cc34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5072e1b0-ab34-a3b4-743a-c17fb6bd4f09@joelhalpern.com> References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <21cd4b5c-3ba7-45ba-b1cc-ee425b1e464d@www.fastmail.com> <5072e1b0-ab34-a3b4-743a-c17fb6bd4f09@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:06:37 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 03:07:32 -0000 On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, at 12:43, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I can not tell from your wording whether the description I provided for > extra attention to changes of principle does or does not fall within > what you consider acceptable. If you refer to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/4P2gFwXDMO8jD6r-RoQb1kvVSW4/ then that text is fine iff we accept that we need a statement of principles. I've seen a lot of different emails on this subject and a number of them invoke undefined processes. I have a problem with that. As I have a problem with attempting to define principles that are not substantially a restatement of what has been documented previously. From nobody Tue Nov 23 00:43:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89E53A0989 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:43:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IDE4ROourosm for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F22403A0975 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AN8hLEG3372819 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:43:22 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637657002; bh=iIQSyyo3haakeZPTdYIlFYi8aHbVq/lV12fheI3N3+w=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Rd5DH1PHiGE3PDL8Twh631sIJwvaQs+0VnZc0dxFPq+BHd7Ofbyo/KUNr2hfHQ2Gt 3Kmm5/0wsBTo/Rz6g9Sf8+SDdXZo1COtQ3PXUamdMXLj9aEsTB2YtjRkkRnQCko8OB q6cJBuslc453dW8z/gSQQi8/8/6iLXHPMJAgYPcs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:43:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------Z0FEyv3zMKArPW0NXYB16RZR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:43:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------Z0FEyv3zMKArPW0NXYB16RZR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------gICh12UaMc7Xb8JDJj1IZf06"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> --------------gICh12UaMc7Xb8JDJj1IZf06 Content-Type: text/plain; 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name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmGcqakFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMQ +gf+NZOpLWCnOVxypcXFeSUanmJ0a0ac+JRS630ibXGNCP1qCTqehRtrsuZJl21k58KsnSSSFdYY egdS/72exLxnmo5NA0/XlDDnbzBsI7PetrlCaFH7XqF5JunhT5p0Fgpb8PMoG6pi5y3Gfms0ofMO 7ozxiIXROXJZ0BIui8SvC5MU3AWoLJFWBXtZymPPt5Lu1V+ab8U6fUqCRL5C6hiX1lbQ2ciGlCQx cIW59YpSXozejZOJVneWzYGAze8mN+kuvP4BT5QtXkOvTRytPj0ScvrQ+/bytyz5bPzJ0VaniWj+ RmNh0qUeDIwyfGmplBR4X6dMq3vBJTGpjm9OOxsHWw== =zstW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------Z0FEyv3zMKArPW0NXYB16RZR-- From nobody Tue Nov 23 07:26:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018233A08C4; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 07:26:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNN1y_BxHxDL; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 07:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA10E3A08F2; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 07:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpXgN-0003Wy-5S; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:26:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:26:02 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Jay Daley , "Joel M. Halpern" cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:26:16 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 14:48 +1300 Jay Daley wrote: >> So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which >> I hope we don't) that we will promptly have to have the >> debate in the RSWG before we can begin searching for the RSCE. > > I don't see this as relevant to the RSCE employment process. > There are multiple de facto characteristics of the RFC series > that can be explained to candidates whether or not they are > encoded as de jure principles. Jay, Having gone through the RSE selection process and been involved in even earlier discussions about "permanent" and interim RFC Editors, I share Joel's concern. I would also agree with you about de facto characteristics, but many (perhaps most) of what would be on my list of those are precisely ones I'd like to see identified now as "if you considering changing these, extraordinary attention and review is required" (note that I avoided the term "principle" -- the term itself seems to prompt too much controversy. So, for the benefit of those of us who think such guidance is needed, because it might be an alternate starting point from Mike's list, and to help me figure out whether I should drop my concerns about the RSCE recruiting process, could you enumerate what de facto characteristics to which you refer? thanks, john From nobody Tue Nov 23 08:26:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24733A03FF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:26:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKIbR_dsvJG8 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 961AB3A0403 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpYcO-0004WA-QU; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:26:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:25:59 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:26:18 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 09:43 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: >... > And maybe that's a good way forward: agree on what can be > agreed now, and then regularly review whether there is more to > agree on. Eliot, If the later "regular review" remains within the duration of this Program, I would have no problem with that... at least as long as we don't put off things that are key to apparent present-time agreement. But that is close to a concern I've expressed before. I don't want the new process to fail, whether in the RSWG/RSAG setup or in getting issues addressed and getting new RFCs out the door. I hope we are all in agreement about that. But should it fail, I want that to be an efficient and obvious as possible rather than a long downhill slide in which things gradually go more and more wrong and people argue that we should just keep doing whatever we have been doing because we have been doing it for a year or more. In the latter case, because the sky didn't fall and this process of starting from scratch --apparently without even agreement about first principles about the Series-- is very painful, it is easy to predict arguments that we should just adjust to the pain and keep going. I also note the combination of the deadline imposed by the expiration date for John Levine's contract and that he has has been prohibited by that agreement from making strategic decisions. I hope he is compiling a list of things that need resolution as soon as there is a mechanism for doing so and assume that list is not zero-length. >From that perspective, one of the worst things we could do to both the Series and the RSWG would be to say "well, we know there are a long list of tactical/ operational issues that need attention but first you should go off an try to establish principles, principles about which there is evidence of deep divisions in the community". So, whether the foundation is Mike's proposal, something derived from Joel's, an attempt to write down the oral tradition accepted by more than two decades of editorial/operational advisory groups, something built on Jay's "de facto characteristics", or something else, I think it would be better to tell the RSWG (in some vocabulary) "this is the accepted wisdom, please try to make decisions within those guidelines, and, if you conclude changes are needed to it, do that very carefully and with the understanding that you are entering at least partially uncharted territory with which the community has little experience. john From nobody Tue Nov 23 08:38:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544993A0476 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:38:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 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upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1ANGcTC73603597 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:38:30 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1637685510; bh=0FaxhWDfxJo7gNE+ZuMV55t/IlNp6WaDen84nIaPB9U=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=pe44BfXsjJCV4bYcvCckkmATpRlFS2vIu3x1AHyIOLh5mHzrCOaW/eRSMBGb75WsQ 2tALzQCrNdCmS1wo6TUFrgo3d11McW6SwqwYJn681KF16co952wYi7NRigSgnRT0rI ooYOT0JBztDi2acBhYNxvBCEPctj3Z49wwEnmBds= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:38:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------p3tZVby5YOfNftIsPjznh84x" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:38:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------p3tZVby5YOfNftIsPjznh84x Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------rz7bkQ8P4isZ3i0fWq8c7AeU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: John C Klensin Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next 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[76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z9sm8035260ile.29.2021.11.23.08.54.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:54:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:54:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:54:08 -0000 On 11/22/21 6:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I wonder if the time argument is misleading. > > If we do not agree on the principles, I have trouble seeing how the > interview process can actually describe what the series being advised by > the RSCE actually is.    To take an extreme example, an advisor advising > a wiki-based dynamic description of ongoing work is a very different > task than an advisor advising the historic RFC series. > > So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which I hope we > don't) that we will promptly have to have the debate in the RSWG before > we can begin searching for the RSCE. In the past we conducted searches for an RSE - which was a much broader, more policy-making role than the RSCE - without having a set of principles beyond what's in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model (RFC 5620, RFC 6635) and related documents (e.g., RFC 8729). And in this Program we've designed a process model that has many more checks and balances (community consensus via the RSWG, stream consensus via RSAB, etc.). Thus I remain confused as to why some folks feel the need for a set of principles right now. Do they think that there are greater risks (and for what?) under our proposed version 3 of the RFC Editor Model than under version 1 and version 2? There have been an awful lot of messages in these threads so perhaps I've missed the ones containing a risk assessment - pointers welcome. Peter From nobody Tue Nov 23 09:04:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EAF3A05DF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q69vLgsWC2FQ for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A804C3A05D0 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hz9VX1J31z1pK5s; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637687092; bh=B1OA2WAiTroH1EeCDLjaBWuw5GL04c81Nj6D1OXDEG0=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=E2TLVVknfQPbbAfZUPxpU3HtfM90775QWhRzpC6utZXbnkhMQ8YmB7i+GfeiI6nXG lk7oeprQB/v7eSmb1KzMSvj0Wtmatqcev6P2qB9ue3cqIN0dZZwiL+SDEGsSgAuCVb f3/JJEgOSlitL1nGK8uejV+IZgxy3gVE7/h+zdrc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hz9VW3d7Nz1nsyQ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:04:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8a72f79a-f27d-3d8a-0c45-b57fc8b429d0@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:04:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:04:58 -0000 When we hired the RSE, a noticeable part of the interview process was answering quesitons about the RFC Series and our hsitory with it. We could do this based on the goal that the hirign was to continue the series as it had been. In contrast, a number of folks have made it quite clear that they do not want things to simply continue as they have been. If they were happy with the current practices, we could write down the principles, agree that they need a higher bar to change, and be off to the races. Yours, Joel On 11/23/2021 11:54 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/22/21 6:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >> >> If we do not agree on the principles, I have trouble seeing how the >> interview process can actually describe what the series being advised >> by the RSCE actually is.    To take an extreme example, an advisor >> advising a wiki-based dynamic description of ongoing work is a very >> different task than an advisor advising the historic RFC series. >> >> So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which I hope >> we don't) that we will promptly have to have the debate in the RSWG >> before we can begin searching for the RSCE. > > In the past we conducted searches for an RSE - which was a much broader, > more policy-making role than the RSCE - without having a set of > principles beyond what's in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model > (RFC 5620, RFC 6635) and related documents (e.g., RFC 8729). And in this > Program we've designed a process model that has many more checks and > balances (community consensus via the RSWG, stream consensus via RSAB, > etc.). Thus I remain confused as to why some folks feel the need for a > set of principles right now. Do they think that there are greater risks > (and for what?) under our proposed version 3 of the RFC Editor Model > than under version 1 and version 2? There have been an awful lot of > messages in these threads so perhaps I've missed the ones containing a > risk assessment - pointers welcome. > > Peter From nobody Tue Nov 23 09:09:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836353A05DF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:09:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1f94MtVr1BXR for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ED5B3A058F for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122332.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 1ANGZ425004373; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:09:14 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=YwQGd8IOBVDgV0WZYcKoXjdjCw+tXZ9yY2O4UsUon6k=; b=CZo0eY5TISrD49f08TpxVz9cCgFzysx7DM6NWYoUyhAg69jIB2cAVbSTA07Fsf4dqe48 ZDp6IRfJbEP3RR6anfUx5rzzCaVVHeJQfeBdqeTJkuZJnjnChow9OkZsHBCkLyNb6ez+ 4m7HZ9n3Rw2GVEPwA8s/vjr+dN7Xl0mEg3k4U3vOLZQF7SB0uZIZQWyroeiog8dKV3IA 0SuTNDO6/ccMcexXwB3ShZUGDycQERYZij5ueQeEYcuNDq0rxfBym4ER0uSPrEDrtWpC 1SXG6OqglIfkVZ4Vp78pdl9pJQkERrJtoYEtvJOIvMt01nGH4UnYz2fU6Kd3BKxQtpuQ JQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3cgevyju0k-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:09:14 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1ANGofE7018763; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:09:13 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3cew83d30b-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:09:13 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.26; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:08:37 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.26; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:08:35 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.026; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:08:34 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps Thread-Index: AQHX3Wa2jJWczkXDrUybwDvAzBNg1KwLbLGAgAATU4CAAA1aAIAFBCuAgAAEmwCAAAWFAIAAB2eAgAAHVoCAAARjgIAA/6uAgAADAwD//603AA== Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:08:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> <8a72f79a-f27d-3d8a-0c45-b57fc8b429d0@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <8a72f79a-f27d-3d8a-0c45-b57fc8b429d0@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21111400 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; 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[76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o14sm7086626ioo.36.2021.11.23.09.19.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6a0742d8-3559-52d9-277f-d66e2ee36268@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:19:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> <8a72f79a-f27d-3d8a-0c45-b57fc8b429d0@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <8a72f79a-f27d-3d8a-0c45-b57fc8b429d0@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:19:37 -0000 On 11/23/21 10:04 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > When we hired the RSE, a noticeable part of the interview process was > answering quesitons about the RFC Series and our hsitory with it. Of course. We can't capture everything in a document and I'd expect someone coming in fresh to our community to have plenty of questions about the RFC Series and our history with it, even if we write down all the principles. But in general I feel that you haven't answered my questions. What are the risks that people have in mind within the context of the model and process we've defined, and how will writing down a set of principles help us manage those risks? Peter From nobody Tue Nov 23 09:23:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438E53A074B for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDJ4RyoPynY9 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3DA73A073E for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id m9so29015080iop.0 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language :from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JQKw45FBfcDokT7Tg7DSFHd7JYT6v3xQ+pZrOijXC1E=; b=VWm59TGsumdoanr1cLzlam74TZuO3C9x3MKElYlzFyRSs66RrICSnc4GZEO62Npf6D hmPhDNFEUn/85gyobkAVxdKyoIEmI2euzss0n1eX8Kn4HmmGwEF+F5TJnUdN/TcZRV4q 0EC45RjnS4FdheKSr/3zzZV7uPnt7+TLxI5XM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JQKw45FBfcDokT7Tg7DSFHd7JYT6v3xQ+pZrOijXC1E=; b=oPCB9qHtYo8SgsL7Nry5AYdWvjy+QFJ33FPpX3Qm+u5QzwEM4WNEIqU/TiVeDU2VA9 v7oYVdhKLWVMzJvzoQnA1qrAWgc4aIv3p6g6IksZlZW4Z6Mdsojb3dZYF6uYn+0D5fVL QpKetk7AOuftBPqB5AmOvO+zHnz3oqOehbbEas2uRKgFpBZOMKlp8W4IVGp2eLaDeSPx gQiXWfD6/s4Cnjd6T+nsJZ2YFsG6xSqveUvQ/G7abciDGrXdny5YUTEln0n4Fr0q6GP7 9JtgAl8iIv9qNJ8bv6XW/ME5FkfkDUqgfjIvGCyAnlpNe9KSdmzC0wZWAuAPHvLolfXB 96Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NobT/mDPVbg0VkkunDlwMiTP5XjoZZjCaACWroZNWfjiNkQwE D+7jyt4Dps2I/B0QrRb2JH8zmquQKJdQwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmE1q2v8uba1WJu5ri9XkHtIb0o9qrjafXvYLw2WbjCO7/WKbu0kiCy8+s+1frrvfJIUEt9g== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f70e:: with SMTP id k14mr3786492iog.173.1637688220522; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i12sm8973097ilb.17.2021.11.23.09.23.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:23:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <012e815f-4f0c-4e70-c529-5ad7596140cf@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:23:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <09353a8d-b705-a3d7-98e6-a6457addb2e5@joelhalpern.com> <3f7b3c63-0ce5-b948-1ee5-9a3baf4df5b7@lear.ch> <2E85F514-170D-41CE-B300-FF783A1BFAF2@mnot.net> <4920f262-21b9-6cd2-0166-b917882047a4@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <4920f262-21b9-6cd2-0166-b917882047a4@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] pricniples and review X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:23:47 -0000 On 11/22/21 5:17 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/18/21 5:09 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> As I argued earlier,[1] defining principles for the series aren't a >> good fit for this body. We're supposed to be coming up with a process >> to create policy, not guidance for that policy itself. The RSWG has >> better oversight than this body, in that it has multiple layers and >> doesn't depend on a frankly fragile agreement in the community to >> function. I also would like to get this work done and move on, and I >> suspect establishing principles worthy of the series is going to take >> at least several months. > > This strongly matches my understanding of our remit and that's one > reason I signed on to editing our document. Personally as editor I am > comfortable defining a process to create policy, but I am not > comfortable defining policy itself (or active guidance for policy - the > line between them is quite fuzzy, in my mind at least). Someone contacted me offlist about this topic, and I wanted to add one more amplification. The Program definition [1] states: This program is intended to foster discussion and consensus on potential changes to the RFC Editor model. That is, our job is to develop the next version of the RFC Editor *model*, not to define principles or policies for the RFC *series*. Although opinions may differ and some folks think we can do whatever we want, I'd prefer to be "conservative in what we send" here. Peter [1] https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/rfc-editor-future-development-program/ From nobody Tue Nov 23 10:04:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF543A0866 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:04:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id de32tXRmtCPa for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26AFA3A082B for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee7466f003c8a379b5a3be238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e746:6f00:3c8a:379b:5a3b:e238]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mpa9C-0003bK-TH; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:04:02 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:04:01 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C81A997-7486-46A5-BA29-A7D9B9F981A2@kuehlewind.net> References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637690647;15451d02; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mpa9C-0003bK-TH Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:04:16 -0000 See below. > On 23. Nov 2021, at 01:00, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/18/21 1:15 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> Please see below. >>> On 18. Nov 2021, at 03:49, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 11/17/21 6:21 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >>>> On 11/17/2021 3:01 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >>>>> Not really. It does, however, breaches the principle (not >>>>> listed by Mike) that RFCs are numbered more or less sequentially >>>>> in order of publication. It would also cause problems for >>>>> external bodies who have established collections of RFCs and >>>>> organized their indices on the basis that they are numbered as a >>>>> sequence of digits with no delimiters. If a paper in a >>>>> professional publication contained a reference to RFC 1883 and >>>>> we suddenly decided that number referred to a series of >>>>> documents rather than a single one or they referenced RFC 2460 >>>>> and we decided that was really RFC 1883.2, that would be a >>>>> problem too. Finally (for now at least), it would risk >>>>> violating the Law of Least Astonishment for bodies used to the >>>>> convention used by ISO and many bodies related to or inspired by >>>>> them that having a document numbered 1234.2 or 1235-2 implies >>>>> component parts of document 1234 rather than sequential updates >>>>> to it. >>>> That's a pretty good point, John, and it makes me think about what = we should do. >>>> I don't like the way Mike wrote his set of principles. I feel the = text is too long, and that several of the bullet points in his list = overlap. I also feel that some of the text is situational, such as the = quip about "more recently, Internet standards", which negates the fact = that for the last 25 years or so the vast majority of RFC published were = in fact the work of the IETF, and also negates the fact that researchers = have long used other venues than the RFC series to publish idea -- IFIP, = SIGCOM or USENIX being great examples. I would much prefer that for now = we stick to the short formulation in RFC 8729: >>>> The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting >>>> Internet technical specifications, including general = contributions >>>> from the Internet research and engineering community as well as >>>> standards documents. >>>=20 >>> Lo and behold, that's the first sentence here: >>>=20 >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-05#sec= tion-1 >>>=20 >> The second sentence proposed by Christian ("RFCs are available free = of charge to anyone via the Internet.=E2=80=9D) is written down as part = of the IETF mission statement (RFC3935): >=20 > It's also part of RFC 8729 and in -06 of our Internet-Draft I = incorporated that sentence into the first paragraph of the Introduction: >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06#sec= tion-1 >=20 >> "Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, >> know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on = the >> issue. Part of this principle is our commitment to making our >> documents, our WG mailing lists, our attendance lists, and our >> meeting minutes publicly available on the Internet.=E2=80=9D >=20 > I do wonder whether it's a good idea to incorporate IETF-specific text = into our Internet-Draft. We should not have IETF specific text or principles in this draft. = However, I think the sentence is fine as it=E2=80=99s a statement of = fact describing the current situation (for all RFCs) and not phrased as = a principle. Mirja >=20 > Peter >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 23 15:50:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022973A0148 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:50:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uylyoAhMrXJk for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E99FD3A012C for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpfYP-0009wT-40; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:50:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:50:19 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <4DACD5B5DB84482633120AA5@PSB> In-Reply-To: <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <96a55164-b53d-875a-12d5-53d8d2799944@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 23:50:37 -0000 =20 --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 09:54 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/22/21 6:38 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >>=20 >> If we do not agree on the principles, I have trouble seeing >> how the interview process can actually describe what the >> series being advised by the RSCE actually = is.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To take >> an extreme example, an advisor advising a wiki-based dynamic >> description of ongoing work is a very different task than an >> advisor advising the historic RFC series. >>=20 >> So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which >> I hope we don't) that we will promptly have to have the >> debate in the RSWG before we can begin searching for the >> RSCE. >=20 > In the past we conducted searches for an RSE - which was a > much broader, more policy-making role than the RSCE - without > having a set of principles beyond what's in previous versions > of the RFC Editor Model (RFC 5620, RFC 6635) and related > documents (e.g., RFC 8729). Peter, That would be a very strong argument if it were true, but it is not. The search and selection process that led to Heather's appointment0 was conducted by a committee, all, or almost all, of whose members had long experience with the RFC Editor process including serving in an advisory role to previous RFC Editors. My recollection --Joel can check me on this -- is that the IAB was quite explicitly aware of those backgrounds and expected us to use them. Candidates were asked questions, and questions they asked were answered, on the basic of that knowledge ("oral tradition" if you like that term) and the actual selection criteria included them. To the extent to which the "Editor Model" RFCs were useful, only RFC 5620 counts -- the others were prepared after she (and for that matter, Glen Kowack) were selected. In the case of Olaf (before Heather) and John Levine (now), the job description was, more or less "we have an existing and working system, keep the train moving and on the tracks". I don't remember the details of Glen Kowack's selection, but I am quite sure that the same case of characters were heavily involved and drawing on the same experience and skills. And Bob Braden was more or less selected by USC-ISI after Jon Postel (who was more or less self-selected) passed away, long before any of the "Model" documents, or even RFC 4844, were published. =20 > And in this Program we've designed > a process model that has many more checks and balances > (community consensus via the RSWG, stream consensus via RSAB, > etc.). Sticking to the "appoint an RSCE" question, AFAICT, none of those checks and balances apply because the procedure is, more or less, that the LLC will carry out a process of its choosing and hire or contract with someone. That is another reason I'm curious about Jay's list of "de facto characteristics", since that list may determine whether we need to say more in that section of the document. > Thus I remain confused as to why some folks feel the > need for a set of principles right now. Do they think that > there are greater risks (and for what?) under our proposed > version 3 of the RFC Editor Model than under version 1 and > version 2? In a word, "Yes". As I have tried to say before, the interpretation and actions under the previous versions were, until things broke down, informed by a long-established and working process, one that was well-understood by key people advising the RFC Editor/ RSE as well as by that officeholder. Unlike RFCs 4844 and 4846 (which actually made a few significant changes consequent of the move from ISI the the IETF community), Model versions 1 and 2 (and RFC 4845) were largely descriptions of existing practice, not significant innovations. =20 By contrast, no matter how much consensus there is that it is the right thing to do (or try), version 3 takes us out into untested territory. The RSWG and RSAB are new and we have no experience with either, especially with a working group that makes nearly final decisions but that lies outside the usual IETF process. The IESG rarely (I hope never) charters a WG, especially a technical WG expected to produce standards track document, without having a clear idea about how its work will be evaluated and a conviction that the community has the expertise needed to do so. Along with many others, I personally believe that the model outlined in your v3 Model document will work, but that does not mean we have adequate experience for that to be a prediction made with great confidence, so much confidence as to believe that the RSWG will be able to sort out issues this Program has tried to ignore... or said "we never needed XYZ before" when, before, circumstances were significantly = different. > There have been an awful lot of messages in these > threads so perhaps I've missed the ones containing a risk > assessment - pointers welcome. The above is not exactly a risk assessment, but maybe it will help. best, john >=20 > Peter From nobody Tue Nov 23 17:06:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8782A3A077C for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tx_xPTOSs_YA for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C29B3A0777 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id h24so1012823pjq.2 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sMKfPxfwGSnqAQwLqFlSOoIczFYh69zcYv++6ROw3D4=; b=pDp4virpQGbbDuelE2AJ8yOlJtUqZSKgbwx8O919u2ZnayctllXisb844zR9S9EHG+ EfCnvdK2yS4i7Eh7DrrKV+p8nmxLqQFxoMqmde25yZe8o32z1VOvHZry+M/XD6LjX0eq JKZLxdcZgA/4p4O/nw9DQEvg0BMy+7iXa56eb5QHMpayxwVnVOIEU/z8casDNaWOAkah EJ9S+l+kMh7xTzcTgzCPu7tU06lcCPcectz0badtwqP35gkYzwFO4sMohGBRP3HCI4H8 igwrdnLMHuyB4Q1vCOYnvZMZOlex6a/RoEij37+Z+1Q9JENLa0fo0t56Let//He3f/36 kdag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sMKfPxfwGSnqAQwLqFlSOoIczFYh69zcYv++6ROw3D4=; b=p0LQaf6EydQ/k1R57H02jdkra6HKVHMH/rAgS76kmGPkYljWiwVumXTw6X+kBaRtk0 G4HFjdJvCDQapnVC+xmZYfXaBM3mxytr5JPoqRTJsq0ZITJQdPKrXbwSlo6TI4XKmiIm Y2argu0JpstBdYSi0cH2sAG5g+oEU5mb4TmyiKAanmx1jWNycJbnw9XP9NGVSVnRSLTa gkH8dsNHmBi3gK5PfaN6j5sZJh6qm1gbsG82w1qibstMp8zq0PDztMJMhgIDHNkUpD2w NAZ8R5nOtvDVxAOqJpnHEu/WAnercoOJVV+wI9W50Qw6QJzIMtq6bJdApSPpLMmfc89F Mx9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cvwLbD9lCKaLkwuYVj5thmskcjArWymDfAjXOV0UaSkA12qlO BV8ugr3YW23Bc/vJkNwwRy1/dikxzSDSNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbNEYmtM4Im4baYImTDYB0aFO53Tbi5mLYaSyLWfsy0XZ72RW52GO7lv4S8ypIALJbBmCJtg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c58f:: with SMTP id l15mr2665458pjt.168.1637716015471; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nh21sm2312728pjb.30.2021.11.23.17.06.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:06:54 -0800 (PST) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <25696d9e-0604-8d9d-9d47-f5bcb94be14d@gmail.com> <07b2e8cf-87ca-3bf6-3c72-a45529fef26c@gmail.com> <1693C627A15708D7E40E353D@PSB> <197bd46e-4e34-8dac-e73f-d707b4dcb634@joelhalpern.com> <98CA39C4-5045-4C45-987B-63AD388BD8C7@apple.com> <2e6d8fa5-2840-6fe7-11bb-8a1a7b6e1951@joelhalpern.com> <6CE5E9E261E6531EE326B2D7@PSB> <49b64d51-c852-e7ea-dca3-c5ca41d170fc@huitema.net> <969a92d9-7cdc-5038-b7e9-e8d021316160@stpeter.im> <0C81A997-7486-46A5-BA29-A7D9B9F981A2@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0986084f-d032-708a-7bd5-ce27d74bd147@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:50 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C81A997-7486-46A5-BA29-A7D9B9F981A2@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] What, if not these X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:06:59 -0000 On 24-Nov-21 07:04, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: =2E.. > We should not have IETF specific text or principles in this draft. Howe= ver, I think the sentence is fine as it=E2=80=99s a statement of fact des= cribing the current situation (for all RFCs) and not phrased as a princip= le. Mirja is onto something here. Stating historical facts without describing=20 them as fixed principles might get us out of this debate. Brian From nobody Tue Nov 23 18:46:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724CE3A086A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:46:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dKc6m0urC3JJ for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE4453A0867 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpiIC-000A9O-FT; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:45:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:45:47 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <157D92F5C57ACC0A534C3288@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:46:05 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 17:38 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > Two points: >=20 > On 23.11.21 17:25, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 >> If the later "regular review" remains within the duration of >> this Program, I would have no problem with that... at least = as >> long as we don't put off things that are key to apparent >> present-time agreement. > Without going into contortions about how this program would > exist if the remit shifts from the IAB, I'll just clarify that > I meant that somehow some review would get performed from time > to time, once the RSWG/RSAB kicked off.=C2=A0 I believe you > yourself suggested something akin to this some time ago, if > I'm not very much mistaken. I did and I still believe that. But I think the present issue is about something different. =20 First, let me draw a distinction using an analogy that isn't very good but that might be helpful. In the IETF, if something or someone appears to be going off the rails, we have three different types of review mechanisms. One is a "regular review" known as "tell it to the Nomcom". Opinions differ about how effective that is under different circumstances, with the recent discussions of term limits and special procedures or guidelines about incumbents as symptoms. There is, by definition, no such review for RSWG participants and I suggest that mechanism would not work in practice for RSWG members, even those appointed by the Nomcom (can you imagine an AD who has done a good job in that role being involuntarily retired because of unhappiness about the RSAG?). =20 It is for that purpose that I favor a periodic, but not too frequent, review of the process. I'd rather settle, before we declare ourselves finished, how the process for conducting such reviews works _and_ require a special process for the RSWG/RSAG to change it. The reasons are not unlike changes to "principles" although not directly related: unless the review is intended to start from the assumption that everything is fine although fine tuning improvements are always possible and be limited to that, having the RSWG/RSAB define the review process is akin to allowing people to appoint the judges who will hear their cases (especially if they also select the reviewers. The second is a "did you mean that and did you really consider all of the issues review about one or more particular decisions which we, possibly incorrectly, call an appeal. We have a parallel mechanism in the RSAB sending something back to the RSWG for further consideration. Individual community member cannot initiate such an "appeal". I thing that is ok, but wonder if enough people have thought about that analogy to make agreement and consensus meaningful. And the third is the notorious recall procedure which, IMO, has ended up in a state in which it is almost possible to run to conclusion. Even if it worked as originally intended, it presumably would not be invoked unless some very large lines (or several little ones) had been crossed. Although things are set up so that, if the early stages of the process do not prompt a resignation, it is nearly impossible to run it to conclusion before someone's term runs out, I think the community would have rough consensus about the lines that should not be crossed... even if most of them are not explicitly written down. That presumed consensus, no matter how dependent on oral tradition about the IETF and how it works, is, much like the RFC Editor function until somewhat over two years ago, reasonably well understood. =20 I believe that the "regular review", at least in the first iteration or two, needs to start from "is this working or did we make some fundamental errors in RFC Edition V3?" and not from the assumption that, at most, some minor tuning is needed. And that is why I said "within the duration of this Program" rather than, e.g., leaving it up to to the RSWG and/or RSAB to design the review process. _And_ I think it is important that we try to define the rails such that, if things go off them, there is an effective (and ideally efficient) way to detect and respond to that. Again making a comparison to history, we had that halfway through 2019 when the RSOC decided to conduct an early re-compete review of Heather and her position and did so after (at least from Heather's perspective) the IAB had systematically excluded her from discussions that affected the RFC Editor Function that she was supposed to be leading. While not stated this way at the time, she essentially turned around and said "principles are being violated and it is impossible for me to continue to do the job for which I was hired under these circumstances, so I will step down rather than applying for the position again. The reactions by the community led to this process. Presumably, without those reactions, the RSOC would have recruited someone new who liked working with the environment that Heather would not accept and we would be moving forward with the RSOC as the "ultimate authority". We have eliminated "ultimate authorities" unless one counts the ability of the LLC to make decisions by controlling the contractual process and evaluation of performance under contracts. But that should not imply that the lines that should not be crossed without wide community participation and review no longer exist ... or that they should be left to the discretion of the RSWG to figure out as if there were no history. >> I also note the combination of the deadline imposed by the >> expiration date for John Levine's contract and that he has = has >> been prohibited by that agreement from making strategic >> decisions. I hope he is compiling a list of things that = need >> resolution as soon as there is a mechanism for doing so and >> assume that list is not zero-length. >=20 > One thing that I believe is outside the scope of our charter > is worrying about John's contract.=C2=A0 I think we all = understand > the situation and would like to be finished sooner rather than > later, so that we can have a permanent situation.=C2=A0 But = like > all other processes in this organization, it will complete in > its own time. Strongly agree. I was commenting on the observation by someone else that we had a firm deadline in March and am pleased to have you refute that notion. > Given these two points, does that change your views one way or > another? It clarified my thinking about the first somewhat. We were and are in complete agreement about the second, so nothing needed changing. best, john From nobody Tue Nov 23 18:59:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607353A088A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vIKpK8wLN7Y for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A293A0889 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mpiVS-000AAO-BQ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:59:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:59:28 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:59:37 -0000 Peter, I hope this is a small editorial matter rather than something that will stir up more controversy, but I have objected a couple of times to the use of "Internet technical specifications" in the opening sentence of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 (and earlier) but have not been able to come up with a good alternative. Fortunately one came up in a discussion of a completely different topic this morning, describing something unrelated to the RFC Series but, I think, still useful. I also think there is a problem with the "as well as standards documents" phrasing and how it might be construed. I consequently recommend changing: OLD: The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. NEW: The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution and administration of Internet resources, including standards documents, general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community, and related commentary. That avoids the potential confusion RFC 2026 and that particular type of technical specification, gives the standards documents the first position in return, and includes everything ("related commentary" reasonably includes even April 1 documents). Thanks for Chris Buckridge for the key "technical evolution..." statement and insight. best, john From nobody Tue Nov 23 19:05:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1435A3A089B for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:05:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=NRPuzEWZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nvP2OVcS Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mfV1asa1SeP for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEB733A089A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDAF5C01A0; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:05:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=4 /DdLg7xdOh5SPzN9Y+/yXJr4Du8e4HQuox+s7BfFd0=; b=NRPuzEWZhBlz2Y+X+ TGYf10OCVyJrrfrixfnm5sJs5U8Go8q+B0HFKAGLsnMAdwVHIHDJhjNMigLOfwHU qyg1DRuGpvTCsB0dTe8+iSCeAHZan8psZbvHIOHoC+5q4BsRZ41FNBp7YrfZGQ8L YDbxd0aGSQpqZNT+rTEwPfAndA2jX2cvMW5FLyIoThAJdHhJuxBPgF/hijIlxEEA Kvctyn2Tv07IzFY8DUmk2zj2yklS0auI2W/97SbDOHgqHJlwxaBQThv9kbUDRTOf u9+L6c9DP1c4IcDjfHcGu6wgJjtnjuvSW6cBFdNGW2r3/2w2RUt8lUamwH3zNi+e ivqOA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=4/DdLg7xdOh5SPzN9Y+/yXJr4Du8e4HQuox+s7BfF d0=; b=nvP2OVcS5SrqNXtK5kJSGOtMftw2Za5OCna2K5fYuMYXb46CAykCPiRQd U3YeDlNSRDhYL0PR7LurflTZPFyP36M8J5VTduIbaEvOYEbx/sFlZYGLC4RABwEy S04ZpS8I0uOo0n52xj6EDBQl4cdALc+kAFrmvq8MpQY1IuQHavEoWdj1E0cMDLhy MJBIexWU6Xha5MmSzQujow7Y2/DXzd51mZoCe++g6u9kGv3qgcLpdHBf1mKw1aPt 29tdcQMY1yPMILE/6HtPmw2VLKV+4tYwlNUo80CcKh5uqoZ1ceWb1CnlB0V+3EdT ZynGrxEEXPZWJowcN90+24z2oPaGQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeejgdehhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepuedtkefhtdfggfejjeegkeevheefhffguefgheefgfegkefhiedtgeduvedufeei necuffhomhgrihhnpehirggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:05:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:05:22 +1100 Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 03:05:33 -0000 I don't mind this, except that the phrase 'Internet resources' is a bit = odd, and could be read to be more expansive than what we intend = (especially because of the meaning of 'resource' on the Web). Is there a = reason to use that instead of just 'Internet'? Cheers, > On 24 Nov 2021, at 1:59 pm, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > Peter, >=20 > I hope this is a small editorial matter rather than something > that will stir up more controversy, but I have objected a couple > of times to the use of "Internet technical specifications" in > the opening sentence of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 (and > earlier) but have not been able to come up with a good > alternative. Fortunately one came up in a discussion of a > completely different topic this morning, describing something > unrelated to the RFC Series but, I think, still useful. =20 >=20 > I also think there is a problem with the "as well as standards > documents" phrasing and how it might be construed. I > consequently recommend changing: >=20 > OLD: > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > series dedicated to documenting Internet technical > specifications, including general contributions from the > Internet research and engineering community as well as > standards documents.=20 >=20 > NEW: > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution > and administration of Internet resources, including > standards documents, general contributions from the > Internet research and engineering community, and related > commentary.=20 >=20 > That avoids the potential confusion RFC 2026 and that particular > type of technical specification, gives the standards documents > the first position in return, and includes everything ("related > commentary" reasonably includes even April 1 documents). >=20 > Thanks for Chris Buckridge for the key "technical evolution..." > statement and insight. >=20 > best, > john >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 23 19:43:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0C63A095D for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7bVFYaaHjat for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 157583A095A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id nh10-20020a17090b364a00b001a69adad5ebso1343674pjb.2 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NU0B2J1C1Aem0CLgZJ3t6vmxk9+07pRb21Y/NgVugjw=; b=OWI/Jx794l7KWx0ZAEw+RDWP1oQgqHhXY5rxw1CHlBdUx8T/pcjb1tE+TrVuZky2Ji Pzq0HW4R/kNSvTOX3Wf49KWz5cMJza38bJ9i1BEBlb2rMVYqtGqYGtOE8KiajIDWTLI1 pfuBYfSxsREhRugjMi6hhn0czEZQBBlrB43nWXBWYOp/aarqP4SwpKG4WDXIRF0r/GpI Dm8Susu2Z5sL4I2K0Ecdizt+AejzbtfiN72O8OmHVKOCcLOlSoh3KhoydTmOITaIGCDV /34SS1lO6FlX/6aVjhgqHexCroTcTOcP/ZGDPLWXc5+fUtoKTFqM0dWJ1brB4sru2YGj LUrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NU0B2J1C1Aem0CLgZJ3t6vmxk9+07pRb21Y/NgVugjw=; b=zS901OYgxLvhg0H9/WsZajA555J3AcqOyKRmRPDpYtFsJlBeHPzvqOd1Ijk0bRWEji dP5g1TTcD5n6J63fIcRVWfMTsmcoYvQarmZ0i501kYfM2k3YGPkWBunnKZkwQjs0mvvD kWqhgxXfY7ABHKgRyxTuW9cngffK6MlBkkev9npjndvuXATjEqTDjtRpvrGL0CDToB2O 98mG2AIyZRLhNSza6AZxvGVYgLGV1NDlrOjo20mZ6k+JErWjIxyKBJzRysgwkGkytwwe siKHjAnmTCkyajzR6VtSrYubJh7cESoOjbZa7QwJWNkOe9biAeSof4W4BAgXYYwDiJ6b i1jA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MGoevqqlFuLtAdnFaEIaqCykK1gitRt69H4Nc/VLmUz/38lwU YNRodJutP1pno4ggPXG33B5yyqKEqhTq+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYyJmkhFTFwql+6TuIFEkAH77sY5u1Hxp82Kc/7zY5qQ+qH9+zJqlBEfWu/oxFVBHcYpU/9w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6f61:: with SMTP id d88mr4161939pjk.109.1637725406907; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nn15sm2776726pjb.11.2021.11.23.19.43.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:43:26 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:43:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 03:43:33 -0000 At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot some overlaps with existing text: # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series The following describes some historical properties of the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user community of each RFC stream. ## Availability The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal provisions] (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/) apply. ## Accessibility There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those with impaired sight. ## Publication Language The publication language of the series is English. Although translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the English version is normative. ## Diversity of Interests In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, speculative ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even eulogies [RFC2468]. Various communities have contributed to the rich history of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF stream, and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why the series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual expression. ## Document Quality Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must be of use to a widespread international community, quality, readability and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication. Brian C From nobody Tue Nov 23 20:11:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3086E3A0A51 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:11:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I71imFNF0yiT for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 419443A0A21 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id z26so1469911iod.10 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:11:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cn917ucwsiSbPw8QEZIwwUdVDtFxYYV+Ww1z/TSX6SA=; b=xRUGyh4zPJsPm9leE6J6U5xqQwU02+rd+fKv6jMNvuZu5UvxL+MAXs/9BY2Eo5FbOj xyJKVsk1s6R6s+me3aH8VnqpV0C4ip+2CbQMjW1nWPeDWjQV01uArcu7A8HAaCIJQpZz 9AJDQgRXRo0UbKyRjODwjHIBQT70mXKsbTUMTXN0exArUrV5JyPWywJ6Gl6guRdbEfGx WVABLSS+k8eTUMfaNpD9DrNSWq9pOtHus0D8/gprbpHjWk5NXT0pf0VB+ibVheMBXJXB ZYWdJcl/W2pizd3BXdsTe1GVL7F9PrWcPnEIN2dO5ZdwzhT++6q7XZe3JLZ1IWDk5bZY i/qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cn917ucwsiSbPw8QEZIwwUdVDtFxYYV+Ww1z/TSX6SA=; b=UL7C/0cQZEBy9WS3oBRPXKglpXbrECTKqF6zO+G97Win/uxnXpL6F+bJUjnkfG/VQR x2v1DRggYaa4VeLgWwXas77s1Qai+t4zuiZd9PSDp0xBhNBsWoinb/B4NmLvvcCHYVWB Pp/0+rOHy6E8/PHEzRumEdilxjRtR0Rt4zPww6Fg1sXo2hzo2qNOxm4Z+LkyqlkMyrWe biVO1EL7QpEHn/cxOTyRw2K2fCDKnQRc0TjOa0PIeDiBg1dTzBc9tqccdp59yWS8vU40 Ws1NL7IHJ6Q6AXt6kXNAFY2MoVu469K/qF8dInnYXzk06INE0Ln4M76puq8gX0rtK21m 8BVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ntzcPndqPNgI9agHJB7Isau1VZc6A2uxc2WW8CGdVA3sR53cu 8ghyw83bt8aMefFyFnjbYOumztl73MUX4qlWARuc9Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQ7hNeYr2cqGFRFRCDnLW3SMycaBe6NWBrwdBhOyIUdh6B7IePcejbmYCUFEqF+Q8LL5kifsAY/WdqbB2IehU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:130f:: with SMTP id r15mr12310112jad.19.1637727095552; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:11:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:10:59 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c5104705d1810dff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 04:11:42 -0000 --000000000000c5104705d1810dff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:05 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > I don't mind this, except that the phrase 'Internet resources' is a bit > odd, and could be read to be more expansive than what we intend (especially > because of the meaning of 'resource' on the Web). Is there a reason to use > that instead of just 'Internet'? > Nit: "the Internet" Also, I would prefer "publishing" rather than "documenting" (I realize that "documenting" is in the original). However, it's not like we're writing documentation about protocols, we are publishing their specifications. -Ekr > Cheers, > > > > On 24 Nov 2021, at 1:59 pm, John C Klensin wrote: > > > > Peter, > > > > I hope this is a small editorial matter rather than something > > that will stir up more controversy, but I have objected a couple > > of times to the use of "Internet technical specifications" in > > the opening sentence of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 (and > > earlier) but have not been able to come up with a good > > alternative. Fortunately one came up in a discussion of a > > completely different topic this morning, describing something > > unrelated to the RFC Series but, I think, still useful. > > > > I also think there is a problem with the "as well as standards > > documents" phrasing and how it might be construed. I > > consequently recommend changing: > > > > OLD: > > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > > series dedicated to documenting Internet technical > > specifications, including general contributions from the > > Internet research and engineering community as well as > > standards documents. > > > > NEW: > > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > > series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution > > and administration of Internet resources, including > > standards documents, general contributions from the > > Internet research and engineering community, and related > > commentary. > > > > That avoids the potential confusion RFC 2026 and that particular > > type of technical specification, gives the standards documents > > the first position in return, and includes everything ("related > > commentary" reasonably includes even April 1 documents). > > > > Thanks for Chris Buckridge for the key "technical evolution..." > > statement and insight. > > > > best, > > john > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000c5104705d1810dff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:05 PM Mark = Nottingham <mnot@mnot= .net> wrote:
I don't mind this, except that the phrase 'Internet resources&#= 39; is a bit odd, and could be read to be more expansive than what we inten= d (especially because of the meaning of 'resource' on the Web). Is = there a reason to use that instead of just 'Internet'?

Nit: "the Internet"

<= div>Also, I would prefer "publishing" rather than "documenti= ng" (I realize that "documenting" is in the original). Howev= er, it's not like we're writing documentation about protocols, we a= re publishing their specifications.

-Ekr


Cheers,


> On 24 Nov 2021, at 1:59 pm, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> I hope this is a small editorial matter rather than something
> that will stir up more controversy, but I have objected a couple
> of times to the use of "Internet technical specifications" i= n
> the opening sentence of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 (and
> earlier) but have not been able to come up with a good
> alternative.=C2=A0 Fortunately one came up in a discussion of a
> completely different topic this morning, describing something
> unrelated to the RFC Series but, I think, still useful.=C2=A0
>
> I also think there is a problem with the "as well as standards > documents" phrasing and how it might be construed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I<= br> > consequently recommend changing:
>
> OLD:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the= archival
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series dedicated to documenting Internet tec= hnical
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifications, including general contributi= ons from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet research and engineering community = as well as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0standards documents.
>
> NEW:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the= archival
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series dedicated to documenting the technica= l evolution
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and administration of Internet resources, in= cluding
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0standards documents, general contributions f= rom the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet research and engineering community,= and related
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commentary.
>
> That avoids the potential confusion RFC 2026 and that particular
> type of technical specification, gives the standards documents
> the first position in return, and includes everything ("related > commentary" reasonably includes even April 1 documents).
>
> Thanks for Chris Buckridge for the key "technical evolution...&qu= ot;
> statement and insight.
>
> best,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0john
>
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future= @iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut= ure

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000c5104705d1810dff-- From nobody Tue Nov 23 21:28:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8E03A0BB4 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jM-3JVL3OW7y for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16E673A0BB0 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52E04B1D4E0; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u09wEMMLLpuM; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4390A4B1D4C6; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:28:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:28:46 +1300 Message-Id: References: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A404) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 05:28:57 -0000 > On 24/11/2021, at 4:26 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 14:48 +1300 Jay Daley > wrote: >=20 >>> So it seems likely even if we declare ourselves "done" (which >>> I hope we don't) that we will promptly have to have the >>> debate in the RSWG before we can begin searching for the RSCE. >>=20 >> I don't see this as relevant to the RSCE employment process. >> There are multiple de facto characteristics of the RFC series >> that can be explained to candidates whether or not they are >> encoded as de jure principles. =20 >=20 > Jay, >=20 > Having gone through the RSE selection process and been involved > in even earlier discussions about "permanent" and interim RFC > Editors, I share Joel's concern. I would also agree with you > about de facto characteristics, but many (perhaps most) of what > would be on my list of those are precisely ones I'd like to see > identified now as "if you considering changing these, > extraordinary attention and review is required" (note that I > avoided the term "principle" -- the term itself seems to prompt > too much controversy. >=20 > So, for the benefit of those of us who think such guidance is > needed, because it might be an alternate starting point from > Mike's list, and to help me figure out whether I should drop my > concerns about the RSCE recruiting process, could you enumerate > what de facto characteristics to which you refer? Off the top of my head: - written in English=20 - freely available - immutable - canonical format is intended for long term archive One important thing for you to note, which I=E2=80=99ve mentioned before but= I suspect the implication was lost, is that I will ask the recruiters to in= terview 10+ community members on their views about this role. The synthesis o= f these views will form part of the conversation the recruiters will have wi= th possible candidates.=20 Jay=20 --=20 Jay Daley=20 IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > thanks, > john >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 23 22:12:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2FE3A0BDB for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:12:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gl4t1xH-yOju for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80A2C3A0BD9 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mplVt-000ALX-IP; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:12:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:12:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Mark Nottingham cc: Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <8C6464EAAB68215DA33E8352@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 06:12:25 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 24, 2021 14:05 +1100 Mark Nottingham wrote: > I don't mind this, except that the phrase 'Internet resources' > is a bit odd, and could be read to be more expansive than what > we intend (especially because of the meaning of 'resource' on > the Web). Is there a reason to use that instead of just > 'Internet'? Not much. I rather liked Chris's language and so minimally adapted it. But, if dropping "resources" gets us to an acceptable level of consensus more easily, it is fine with me... I'm just really bothered by the implication of "technical specification" being a standards track IETF document. john From nobody Tue Nov 23 22:23:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF86D3A0BE0 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:23:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 726MHYfCcgOq for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EA343A0BDE for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 22:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mplgZ-000AMM-LE; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:23:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:23:10 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eric Rescorla , Mark Nottingham cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <0B51F3DCBAFB59AD7B4D3C52@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 06:23:25 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 20:10 -0800 Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:05 PM Mark Nottingham > wrote: > >> I don't mind this, except that the phrase 'Internet >> resources' is a bit odd, and could be read to be more >> expansive than what we intend (especially because of the >> meaning of 'resource' on the Web). Is there a reason to use >> that instead of just 'Internet'? >> > > Nit: "the Internet" we are getting down to the issues that I think can safely be left to editor's discretion or, if necessary, to the RPC. But, yes, I prefer that too. > Also, I would prefer "publishing" rather than "documenting" (I > realize that "documenting" is in the original). However, it's > not like we're writing documentation about protocols, we are > publishing their specifications. I don't see much difference except that "publishing" gets us tied up with the question of what institution or piece of one is actually the publisher and I rather hope we can avoid going there. Also keep in mind that a very significant fraction of the RFC Series is not specifications of protocols. While the latter doesn't have quite the same associations as "technical specification", no BCP (whether technical or procedural) is supposed to provide specifications of a protocol, some standards track documents do not, and many informational documents don't either ... as Peter indicated in his original text and I included but edited a bit. There are also some edge cases in the categories he and I used, but my text, and I assume his, were intended to avoid turning them into a point of controversy. If those distinctions ever need to be resolved, I am happy to leave them to the relevant streams (the ISE, IRTF, and probably the IAB may publish protocol specifications too, just not standards track ones). and/or the RSWG/RSAB. john From nobody Wed Nov 24 07:41:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29E33A0812 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: 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attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGeXQsFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+oU WhAAu4A1M2EClLju5ybm5fla4UEfMhxQaqK9VMcTUkjOoAOBHjtgsOAa7Q/YFZdxLkB2UldSWqP1 bn1czrovaxpsmTq5/5A6gAL/nN09r+NrgWkixXuWL8pnT0KaDf8cDYiXlJQguawmfm2mN57KUVlS RnRUa53wfm9XzEQUAEcU1ZmaBWfH6bXhK+GKB7EQHEOY9Gj9Oqs076/YoCY09/qAIGkMTnScEnQw rhy1yacKCopiIEb2lXPrsxp33uOe87XUP5McYDIOy97owp4L0Y4+8a4vqLL80adj7umi/Qve4jyF tZk4eZRZMJdnvR09HLY6eIG5lF5VCJLe1GeQYkJ8uqYhF6lNpCcFI4t9pVaiaLjPsJSGaCAOSf85 WEZTQXnGS2OVxIQmO8t/PUj1GFrbeAncpxAk3dtUilBTBDtsVSlmwuFnN1OdK5PSTOsCqzvuWfcw /6Lt7+9h0k6FQzbX9pal/sACQuwyh/l6G9sNAQ+fH3JSS4IrmLPSX99YstiwS+ywN4K1xgsTmop9 JLUw53eWDiBfR9HozhJ0Hmf84NIYR8Pbs0wwmidAeoWw1h2vtRqjBJQdUotvVC56gGY2ZrmjO1vr qJF9IPzaIwsRVYAsEsvFkuxYRQdKw022ikBUdhOm0RhB8okPTVAxqBDS1pBAxjUhtQgdgXx8AeWY riI= =fJYF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------0yVXG0So745sKVYPeqZnCWUz-- From nobody Wed Nov 24 07:47:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC833A081C for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:47:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fi60AMGXXd5w for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D58B33A081A for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HzlkS0lVHz1pKDf; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:47:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637768832; bh=iVzWtmJhIJHFrJNUGsHnKrIboZYtpWblDyLdHQayAp0=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=iynANkG5Wz4bVSwYjfn1Kog6DNwj2f2Fm2phDNgd83FHePqElo9ShtuQnTemk63B8 L+9U8wHRK5BIopNa4Qr9Td5nxeBXh4a6mL9A4C52FH+/Vb3unWf/1HYgYzzQJCqnre cqROiptYRSxQ4plXxlE5N/XXVjAccEM2l85SA/DQ= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HzlkR4QGbz1pKHZ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:47:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:47:17 -0000 It seems to me that some version of stable document references / unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. (Archival is in the introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) Yours, Joel On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot > some overlaps with existing text: > > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series > > The following describes some historical properties of > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties > should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user > community of each RFC stream. > > ## Availability > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal provisions] > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/) apply. > > ## Accessibility > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those > with impaired sight. > > ## Publication Language > > The publication language of the series is English. Although > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the > English version is normative. > > ## Diversity of Interests > > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, speculative > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > eulogies [RFC2468].  Various communities have contributed to the rich > history > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF stream, > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why the > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual expression. > > ## Document Quality > > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, readability > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication. > >    Brian C > From nobody Wed Nov 24 13:44:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C373A0C8C for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id meXqUdFk8IRm for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5CCC3A0C7B for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id r2so3848957ilb.10 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7d+B06jF63venLZbWyJayI6MDHXO1+9Ae74Fu5+Ycpw=; b=OkaxxQ9T8X8YU2Ox7u4hJJXrlQ9F9kmaZYJtP7Wst2QXCzbIZfpKV2RbM1nt34w1BG P8LWHRvnhBRMbmx5ZJGxxeG1izB6ObaxZAt5ZsgUueUB5vdGNHuY4ar5jLXMTnj81lr3 2jViExgXld3nauMXu4coeWMITrlm4YSIMIryc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7d+B06jF63venLZbWyJayI6MDHXO1+9Ae74Fu5+Ycpw=; b=h6aUl23olSEkEUUNL7ZnqlWIieX/BT/Q0ljfaIk/DjZQATmR1US9Nox71UaodhtVJd Bh8jSanuWbuZKEwCuEr/6WRErxLvAlDmXvOQ7fBTA18XLrm/QZ5lX7B0CVuQBLOG0c+S 6Zr3fRkFXBThCi5k3IWY2SczZfwZuJlOJQNGM/Ne3B8ijJuIkECnNGr94/Zcf7P9Xoj4 9I2brJslvAx+f7W9Gq/JEcJ+R/I1+DEGf1q4JlVqLyOaLpQGJD7DL+j/frIAmTeY4mPC wohS/Q0cQesfsK9KPKX2ncbowqTNq0ILg+9E6DWVQJs+ZIANMwy0z0rUtIxm8JfHiqa/ 9LxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kP+8h+uUzWWAFz3CslRIEHldMz9rswwxAfLraPY2wtDlc0L4V fRQbRW1DU9dzIHR+zcBEBvJikA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQP37QoPXlpsoMhQOgZYEC6SyAAcyQY2bR22vh8P3qmMEteTVqR5RnBgkH1XSMiHqsdPyj+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1e0c:: with SMTP id g12mr15338997ila.249.1637790280307; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-76-25-154-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [76.25.154.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f15sm560474ila.68.2021.11.24.13.44.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:44:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:44:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:44:44 -0000 On 11/24/21 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > It seems to me that some version of stable document references / > unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list.  (Archival is in the > introduction.  Repeating here seems sensible to me.) I searched some relevant RFCs for the term "archive" or "archival"; although there are brief or passing mentions in RFC 1358, RFC 1601, RFC 2555, RFC 5540, and RFC 8700 (and perhaps others), the most relevant information comes from RFC 4844 (and its successor, RFC 8729)... ### 1. Introduction The first Request for Comments (RFC) document was published in April of 1969 as part of the effort to design and build what we now know of as the Internet. Since then, the RFC Series has been the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including both general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. ... As the IETF has grown up and celebrated its own 20 years of history, its requirements for archival publication of its output have changed and become more rigorous. ... As part of its charter (see Appendix A), the IAB has a responsibility for the RFC Editor. Acknowledging the IETF's and the general Internet engineering and research community's evolving needs, the IAB would like to see a future for the RFC Series that continues to meet its original mandate of providing the archival series for the technical research and engineering documentation that describes the Internet. ... 2. RFC Series Mission The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. ... 4. Framework ... There are 3 categories of activity, and a 4th category of series-wide rules and guidelines, described for implementing the RFC Series to support its mission: o Approval of documents. o Editing, processing, and publication of documents. o Archiving and indexing the documents and making them accessible. o Series rules and guidelines. ... Each stream has its own documented approval process. The RFC Editor is responsible for the approval of documents in one of the streams (Independent Submission stream, see Section 5.1.4) and works with the other approving bodies to ensure smooth passage of approved documents into the next phases, ultimately to publication and archiving as an RFC. ... 4.3. Archiving, Indexing, and Accessibility The activities of archiving, indexing, and making accessible the RFC Series can be informed by specific subject matter expertise in general document series editing. It is also important that they are informed by requirements from the whole community. As long as the RFC Series is to remain coherent, there should be uniform archiving and indexing of RFCs across all streams and a common method of accessing the resulting documents. 4.3.1. Definition In principle, there should be a community consensus document describing the archiving, indexing, and accessibility requirements for the RFC Series. In practice, we continue with the archive as built by the capable RFC Editors since the series' inception. Any specific concrete requirements for the archive, index, and accessibility operations are the subject of agreements between the IASA and the RFC Editor (e.g., contracts, statements of work, service level agreements, etc). 4.3.2. Operational Implementation The RFC Editor is responsible for ensuring that the RFC archive and index are maintained appropriately and that the resulting documents are made available to anybody wishing to access them via the Internet. The RFC Editor works with the IASA for regular reporting and feedback. 4.3.3. Process Change Should there be a community move to propose changes to the requirements for the RFC archive and index or accessibility, the IAB will work with the RFC Editor to get community input and it will approve changes by validating appropriate consideration of community requirements. ... 6. Security Considerations The processes for the publication of documents must prevent the introduction of unapproved changes. Since the RFC Editor maintains the index of publications, sufficient security must be in place to prevent these published documents from being changed by external parties. The archive of RFC documents, any source documents needed to recreate the RFC documents, and any associated original documents (such as lists of errata, tools, and, for some early items, non- machine readable originals) need to be secured against failure of the storage medium and other similar disasters. ### By my reading, the term "archival series" is shorthand for the fact that there's an archive (i.e., a public store and record) of the documents that have been published in the series. Maintaining this archive is part of the RPC responsibilities defined in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model as well as in the Internet-Draft we're working on in this Program, so I don't see anything especially controversial about including more text from Section 4.3 of RFC 4844/8729 in our document. Peter From nobody Wed Nov 24 15:53:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3663A0D05 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:53:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VZ7ZtSUI66gc for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 650153A0CFA for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id z26so5308105iod.10 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:53:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YbfGlTawqXfXaltWzH4so5zdOMA/hTHaj9QiMeKm//U=; b=Qk7v4SV+wf7C1pNRdHk33uhXl7NpFQDRwEGUGS5UdmGGxSjgO0LzWfdGzFXoNxA/OV gPZTS91//TyfQY/rlgJ5joZMazTpyP5iy+itm55kb1kqjKiO3a8dOnIJTHB/vt6kP4fA NPOKaxs+qXDX3mE+9nWaH+jrf/yF0u54d2WkhbaaGS11zrpb3osIuiCu4av/0HxkdJDT AzZM6pzwgpoTX4oXBkF5+dg5gkpMxUNi9jRaK54dkwhKzdlTiEIqNcyrJ1zWk76FnJ1l dM4Z2wUEZiLxRf7J90f58HoDzklzm81bYQt+vtA89fwThY9DOSgYHlDUF+21coYfYXIR 4jsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YbfGlTawqXfXaltWzH4so5zdOMA/hTHaj9QiMeKm//U=; b=w5v6BdcUY+g1MO6vqXy9nAqM/iA8+WbBCdO4BNMMpP4sIKxY5AIRA09HdbUOreicRB GDgFtGX/xB5SAr7t5y9pM5P6AjsdTC5a3Vm0hPHGjMnnUyrr5plXqVVqsvbKVnpcH6GL sqNdHsvJJ5ANvXlXA9VmrxHj83n7u31DbpLceio+rTZrXL1tUzjG8X2HOGl9vRe1kM2M Cg07OsQJJ2Acj+A8zdCUOAUTopLd7sPhVsMr/F26bAh/tih1I+wVV3kerezW0xsoQKCy xoF/EkV7L1b+QPV+LWxEqV+EUECC7KYIn6slVdhqcbiVXmafHvIr18KPN5llGq2j4v+D 7poQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CZ/TgR/eMiUYADrJT3ZHoo15IkpTGVD87qby12ktdI9REGcuL 1/qbyl6fPhLtKGsiI9KHpziKBcqFccGrDFggXXk7XA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyu87esJ6R9OBlChIycYkjXaADMDjmp3C9nfn6mIq01rQZTBUI+8or42MfbZ5kNKYlWjAV+sKtVFl8ChToRJp8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:854a:: with SMTP id b10mr19205153ios.213.1637798009242; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:53:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:52:53 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e166f05d1919042" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:53:36 -0000 --0000000000008e166f05d1919042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > It seems to me that some version of stable document references / > unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("this is how things are historically") and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it would be better if we made RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objects (e.g., RFC 10001 would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you could use something like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, RFC10001.1 to refer to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even rough consensus to make this change. However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for making this change than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be able to consider this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either (1) have some historical text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a heightened standard of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should not have a heightened standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. -Ekr (Archival is in the > introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, > > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". > > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot > > some overlaps with existing text: > > > > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series > > > > The following describes some historical properties of > > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties > > should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus > > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user > > community of each RFC stream. > > > > ## Availability > > > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more > > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal provisions] > > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/) apply. > > > > ## Accessibility > > > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible > > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those > > with impaired sight. > > > > ## Publication Language > > > > The publication language of the series is English. Although > > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the > > English version is normative. > > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > > > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published > > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, speculative > > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > > eulogies [RFC2468]. Various communities have contributed to the rich > > history > > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networking. > > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF stream, > > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why the > > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual > expression. > > > > ## Document Quality > > > > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must > > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, readability > > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is > > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication. > > > > Brian C > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --0000000000008e166f05d1919042 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com&= gt; wrote:
It seems to me that some version of stable document referen= ces /
unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list.=C2=A0

I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("thi= s is how things are historically")
and= the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles.<= /div>

For example, I doubt it's any= surprise to people here that I think it would be better if we made
RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than= bitwise objects (e.g., RFC 10001
would poi= nt to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you could use some= thing
like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the orig= inally published version, RFC10001.1 to refer
to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that:

1. This is not how th= e RFC series has traditionally been managed.
2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even rou= gh consensus to make this change.

However, I don't agree that we should have = a heightened process for making this change
than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be = able to consider
this kind of thing?). For = that reason, while it might be OK to either (1) have some historical
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote"> text with nothing about a heightened standard of= approval (2) have a heightened standard
of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should n= ot have a heightened
standard of approval = for the very principles which are contested.

-Ekr

(Archival is in the
introduction.=C2=A0 Repeating here seems sensible to me.)

Yours,
Joel

On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow,
> here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Prin= ciples".
> Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot
> some overlaps with existing text:
>
> # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series
>
> The following describes some historical properties of
> the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties
> should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus
> including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user
> community of each RFC stream.
>
> ## Availability
>
> The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for more=
> than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal provision= s]
> (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/t= rust-legal-provisions/) apply.
>
> ## Accessibility
>
> There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as accessible=
> as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those > with impaired sight.
>
> ## Publication Language
>
> The publication language of the series is English. Although
> translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the
> English version is normative.
>
> ## Diversity of Interests
>
> In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published
> procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, speculati= ve
> ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even<= br> > eulogies [RFC2468].=C2=A0 Various communities have contributed to the = rich
> history
> of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on networkin= g.
> This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF stream,=
> and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also= why the
> series does not have a "house style" and allows for individu= al expression.
>
> ## Document Quality
>
> Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must
> be of use to a widespread international community, quality, readabilit= y
> and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is
> understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication.=
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian C
>

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--0000000000008e166f05d1919042-- From nobody Wed Nov 24 16:03:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E0A3A0D0E for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:03:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IlFEfhtCL7n for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FC443A0D03 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Hzykc4ctJz1pK8g; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:03:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637798584; bh=oOdCJQggQRfFs3cH0bUNwpdccJ3MIoxqC3OFPxGEtQs=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=YakO/AoY/SmIfgZpIc8bJNEHrs/c7vJ8BU955WOzy4XneQhwcwal4qoJVxBdQy939 TlhIPcW5if8i2C7SS/JglyyWqJxQDTeGwmTtPjt2+oN+7MBOStam9X/FkbGYZBLios Z+hkaE20GnV42EBrTCMRLjmeHO7NPgwAXiqHb+5I= X-Quarantine-ID: <8a8bVkeDAaKh> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Hzykb4r0bz1ntHw; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:03:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:03:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:03:10 -0000 I would agree that the topic falls within the remit of the RSWG. Where I suspect we differ is in what aspects of it are simply a matter for the RSWG, and what requires more care. While I am not sure I like the idea of dot versions, and I think there are more problems hidden there, lets put that aside. I suspect I am missing many of the complications associated with such a proposal. But the one that leaps out at me is that this seems to change the meaning of what we promised folks was a stable reference e.g. to RFC 8200. Changing that to mean the most current version of a document that gets "revisions" even with a careful definition of what are acceptable revisions seems to be something that needs much more interaction with the larger community. Yours, Joel On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > It seems to me that some version of stable document references / > unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. > > > I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("this is > how things are historically") > and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. > > For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it > would be better if we made > RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objects > (e.g., RFC 10001 > would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you > could use something > like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, > RFC10001.1 to refer > to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: > > 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. > 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even > rough consensus to make this change. > > However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for > making this change > than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be > able to consider > this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either > (1) have some historical > text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a > heightened standard > of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should > not have a heightened > standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. > > -Ekr > > (Archival is in the > introduction.  Repeating here seems sensible to me.) > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, > > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". > > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot > > some overlaps with existing text: > > > > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series > > > > The following describes some historical properties of > > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties > > should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus > > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user > > community of each RFC stream. > > > > ## Availability > > > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for > more > > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal > provisions] > > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/ > ) apply. > > > > ## Accessibility > > > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as > accessible > > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those > > with impaired sight. > > > > ## Publication Language > > > > The publication language of the series is English. Although > > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the > > English version is normative. > > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > > > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published > > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, > speculative > > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even > > eulogies [RFC2468].  Various communities have contributed to the > rich > > history > > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on > networking. > > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF > stream, > > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why the > > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual > expression. > > > > ## Document Quality > > > > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must > > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, > readability > > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is > > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid > publication. > > > >     Brian C > > > > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > From nobody Wed Nov 24 16:18:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230AD3A0D1E for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HlM_J8IEdxEZ for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 564323A003C for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id m9so5483948iop.0 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2uD3LbMm7bptcMN4kOmbBKz7cxuF1eFvZs0zDwhVJ6s=; b=ZxCevO2MZRH7e3URpQLBhL6dB7q+UwLN9ul4yED4RdTrANj/LDVhHOFoJUt1mJzN4Y MOJPhDPp/B4Hzs5cEJ1rEy4gZQVzBVnYz1bMUSsW6qwKNVzagWsCUdYtg7J3nLtk/ybL 3597h2v9/9vs8m+0JF5gBfuEQFSEvtJ1BOchAt+CxeDqWeXX6IjJi1S7lW1Z1I20T+ox 0QbEE+AX7kpCO8PYprdN44bgI4X8nO7faaFJTh2E9BJvPG06ypkK1c6XxKZ+F0Cu9i8q gmrX3QEd9H8aHjXsY6K6d0ilb/o5oCGJ9t0n44gl0zHKiPNeA90mjc1jroYyQSEGzVQy PyRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2uD3LbMm7bptcMN4kOmbBKz7cxuF1eFvZs0zDwhVJ6s=; b=u3p8zDizJaVjjh3tHDjMiiPPzWEbxHHaClc/pcjv0CyuF2MFzIGrBVyC3NHL1BCoch jWBIa8GGHhIsduTJeSsop2YeECPSkQHjEd2y8j0JDviIPX9QYS2kDcZ5aTjvfgO+u9Uk GZcPxu8npiSVf2Hg49t6aL18JAHAPatdlx1qZCRKrv8xukImEfL16lBCrK+hmR3J0PRp e7sq1qQ3QofnmhDjBVz1vXLKhDU5wzMy5N4TucY58cilnqzsE7FA0v0wR8idQhxSrPJp FaFINQMa0jt2QC+zqROl2CsEnBq+0EBxC/R+byWRV7GQk3j76f6/vhfqnY1lF4nf0n0A NhtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530fT39VA5hPCZYOHSwPVQATVdffAEeVaMka2RfcttKvZQs4W88b /VNusuGDXmoCwwmTAnxSYb3ie5lE5WXzX9du0InfDasCzHQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHRzmldaIPSZX9DrSjfFlMt/m11Y7+kbp+JwtyKKWWI/MGvFQPiWkl/oh80JgVOqTsv+eMCJbnPzyCRntS5C8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:854a:: with SMTP id b10mr19366042ios.213.1637799487039; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:18:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:17:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a37b0f05d191e8c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:18:13 -0000 --000000000000a37b0f05d191e8c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I would agree that the topic falls within the remit of the RSWG. > > Where I suspect we differ is in what aspects of it are simply a matter > for the RSWG, and what requires more care. > Well, as has we've discussed extensively, the RSWG can't do anything unilaterally, so this would not be just a matter for the RSWG but for the RSWG and the RSAB. So the question is what (if anything) falls outside of that process and requires some kind of heightened process While I am not sure I like the idea of dot versions, and I think there > are more problems hidden there, lets put that aside. > > I suspect I am missing many of the complications associated with such a > proposal. But the one that leaps out at me is that this seems to change > the meaning of what we promised folks was a stable reference e.g. to RFC > 8200. Changing that to mean the most current version of a document that > gets "revisions" even with a careful definition of what are acceptable > revisions seems to be something that needs much more interaction with > the larger community. > I think reasonable people can differ about what level of consultation any individual change would require. My position here is merely that that discussion about what level of consultation is required is one that should be had in the RSWG -- and if necessary in the RSAB -- rather than decided now in what's effectively the charter for the RSWG, especially for issues where we already know that there is diversity of opinion. -Ekr > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > It seems to me that some version of stable document references / > > unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. > > > > > > I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("this is > > how things are historically") > > and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. > > > > For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it > > would be better if we made > > RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objects > > (e.g., RFC 10001 > > would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you > > could use something > > like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, > > RFC10001.1 to refer > > to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: > > > > 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. > > 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even > > rough consensus to make this change. > > > > However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for > > making this change > > than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be > > able to consider > > this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either > > (1) have some historical > > text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a > > heightened standard > > of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should > > not have a heightened > > standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. > > > > -Ekr > > > > (Archival is in the > > introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, > > > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". > > > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot > > > some overlaps with existing text: > > > > > > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series > > > > > > The following describes some historical properties of > > > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties > > > should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus > > > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user > > > community of each RFC stream. > > > > > > ## Availability > > > > > > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for > > more > > > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal > > provisions] > > > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/ > > ) apply. > > > > > > ## Accessibility > > > > > > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as > > accessible > > > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for > those > > > with impaired sight. > > > > > > ## Publication Language > > > > > > The publication language of the series is English. Although > > > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the > > > English version is normative. > > > > > > ## Diversity of Interests > > > > > > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published > > > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, > > speculative > > > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and > even > > > eulogies [RFC2468]. Various communities have contributed to the > > rich > > > history > > > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on > > networking. > > > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF > > stream, > > > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why > the > > > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual > > expression. > > > > > > ## Document Quality > > > > > > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must > > > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, > > readability > > > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is > > > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid > > publication. > > > > > > Brian C > > > > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > --000000000000a37b0f05d191e8c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh= @joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I would agree that the topic falls within the remit of the = RSWG.

Where I suspect we differ is in what aspects of it are simply a matter
for the RSWG, and what requires more care.

<= div>Well, as has we've discussed extensively, the RSWG can't do any= thing
unilaterally, so this would not be just a matter for the RS= WG but for
the RSWG and the RSAB. So the question is what (if any= thing)
falls outside of that process and requires some kind of h= eightened process
=C2=A0

While I am not sure I like the idea of dot versions, and I think there
are more problems hidden there, lets put that aside.

I suspect I am missing many of the complications associated with such a proposal.=C2=A0 But the one that leaps out at me is that this seems to chan= ge
the meaning of what we promised folks was a stable reference e.g. to RFC 8200.=C2=A0 Changing that to mean the most current version of a document th= at
gets "revisions" even with a careful definition of what are accep= table
revisions seems to be something that needs much more interaction with
the larger community.

I think reasonabl= e people can differ about what level of consultation any
individu= al change would require. My position here is merely that that
dis= cussion about what level of consultation is required is one that should
be had in the RSWG -- and if necessary in the RSAB -- rather than
decided now in what's effectively the charter for the RSWG, esp= ecially
for issues where we already know that there is diversity = of opinion.

-Ekr


Yours,
Joel

On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems to me that some version of stable document= references /
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list.
>
>
> I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("t= his is
> how things are historically")
> and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") = angles.
>
> For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think= it
> would be better if we made
> RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objec= ts
> (e.g., RFC 10001
> would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you =
> could use something
> like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version,
> RFC10001.1 to refer
> to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that:
>
> 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed.
> 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even =
> rough consensus to make this change.
>
> However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process fo= r
> making this change
> than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to= be
> able to consider
> this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either =
> (1) have some historical
> text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a <= br> > heightened standard
> of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should=
> not have a heightened
> standard of approval for the very principles which are contested.
>
> -Ekr
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Archival is in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0introduction.=C2=A0 Repeating here seems sensible t= o me.)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in m= y inbox tomorrow,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > here's a proposed shorter alternative to = Mike's "RFC Principles".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure= Peter will spot
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > some overlaps with existing text:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Ser= ies
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The following describes some historical prope= rties of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of th= ese properties
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should not be taken forward without a strong = community consensus
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members b= ut also the user
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > community of each RFC stream.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ## Availability
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The RFC series documents have been freely ava= ilable digitally for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IE= TF Trust [legal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provisions]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (https://tru= stee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://truste= e.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/>) apply.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ## Accessibility
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is a general goal to make the RFC serie= s documents as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accessible
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > as possible to communities that have special = needs, e.g., for those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with impaired sight.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ## Publication Language
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The publication language of the series is Eng= lish. Although
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > translations of RFCs into other languages are= welcomed, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > English version is normative.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ## Diversity of Interests
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC se= ries has published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > procedural and informational documents, thoug= ht experiments,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0speculative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC= 1149, RFC2549], and even
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > eulogies [RFC2468].=C2=A0 Various communities= have contributed to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rich
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > history
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-= centric take on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0networking.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This why several streams of RFCs exist in add= ition to the IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stream,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and why the RFC "brand" is wider th= an the IETF. This is also why the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > series does not have a "house style"= ; and allows for individual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expression.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ## Document Quality
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived = indefinitely and must
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > be of use to a widespread international commu= nity, quality,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and accuracy are key to the success of the RF= C Series. It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > understood that sometimes this stands in the = way of rapid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publication.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian C
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.iab.org/mailman= /listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>
--000000000000a37b0f05d191e8c7-- From nobody Wed Nov 24 16:30:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24ED3A0D2A for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:30:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=h4gO2v9Y; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ntM2b3e3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUwqiovCBpDl for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D64EB3A0D28 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1A5C01C1; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:30:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=K 0zWLEieWce72e9qs9Env1WYrwXE9Wx2j9vjv+vbzOA=; b=h4gO2v9Y7szO3nXkd LvgEbSh/ov71yaLo6QEg7vRbveGjfdYpTH353HycX/lrgApsESmgObhbWBtSmLqB xeoyNVkd+Ei21qLyaLG7ENuDcvMr8XP2/NIDtXmZgDOLU9BFdxnmIpchXe2Uq29H jrL79+uvKOa75MKcZ15+fJM3nhHMDn9lESE3+4lSxZRnZ1k+ZdflraURr9QWicXm R5A5480jsHcNUdYEwrrDQDWEuGnDeeYDvZxxS8nFlSbyqz3wG0gbSv4YMdmNTnLj PoSGGXYpGSTt0LHzzG+ZtfIigE4DTsU7w6+4jiz3W14TG3dNoe1N5SH2s1Vdyx72 /0Xmw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=K0zWLEieWce72e9qs9Env1WYrwXE9Wx2j9vjv+vbz OA=; b=ntM2b3e3HjFjG54aVyOpLjXVRQx6JAwH7Y/dzwP415mOZ3sNZAwo+TaPE KYOHCsBv+SH4ohQbOGSNah3+SLC8Hlhjj4AM3uHPxfomP/1n9EpBc/eilkmeTXCE mFJ/QjfQ+o7EmDclWVfpId6w46vu2uI55M+io4UIe2f99d8CjwSBxuOUcCr+r4w0 ghqbWiYJu9UxA392bQ+9cbE4K2lzYrSm1VReNhHnc3Iud9yrOf0r8r0fV6l3Gqxr +j4+8Tn4RuYdIHr2+6XwNK14KuNLw4lBezJVePhPmbpxoLtLLoRHR9B8oUVBdIyH fGWfmTXx3edTZpUWQ/A4W1HvBt9LQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeelgddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeiteduuddvudfftedtuddvgeehtdeuhe ehjeegledtleekvefgffehfefffeffgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhi rggsrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:30:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:30:22 +1100 Cc: Eric Rescorla , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:30:36 -0000 > On 25 Nov 2021, at 11:03 am, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > I would agree that the topic falls within the remit of the RSWG. >=20 > Where I suspect we differ is in what aspects of it are simply a matter = for the RSWG, and what requires more care. >=20 > While I am not sure I like the idea of dot versions, and I think there = are more problems hidden there, lets put that aside. >=20 > I suspect I am missing many of the complications associated with such = a proposal. But the one that leaps out at me is that this seems to = change the meaning of what we promised folks was a stable reference e.g. = to RFC 8200. Changing that to mean the most current version of a = document that gets "revisions" even with a careful definition of what = are acceptable revisions seems to be something that needs much more = interaction with the larger community. Sure. I agree very much that such a change would be complex, and perhaps = problematic unless handled with great care. It very well may be = something we don't want to do at all. What's missing is why it's necessary to mandate (in our document) extra = process for specific topics -- the seeming presumption being that the = RSWG would not take such care, and its oversight and consultation = mechanisms as defined would be ineffective. Additionally, Brian's proposal includes this language: """ Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward = without a strong community consensus including not only active RSWG/RSAB = members but also the user community of each RFC stream. """ ... which seems problematic, because: * 'Strong consensus' requires interpretation -- who judges that, and = what is the bar for determining it? Can a single person argue that their = objection, even if not well supported, prevents 'strong consensus'? What = about five people? * As we've discussed ad nauseam, how does one gauge the consensus of the = user community of a stream? Do we need to reconvene this body to do so, = even if the RSWG already exists? This also begs the question of whether = the RSWG's currently proposed mechanisms fail to achieve such consensus = (as much as can be done). As written, these measures look more likely to guarantee that these = things will never be changed. If we merely want to assure that any = changes to them have adequate consideration and review, I again question = why the RSWG's proposed processes -- executed in good faith and overseen = by the RSAG -- are not adequate.=20 This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the = document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- = perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, what it now = seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that surface = some people's desires to lock their preferences into the series, even = over the will of the broader community as expressed in the RSWG.=20 Cheers, > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >> It seems to me that some version of stable document references / >> unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. I think this gets at = the intersection between the descriptive ("this is how things are = historically") >> and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. >> For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it = would be better if we made >> RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise = objects (e.g., RFC 10001 >> would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you = could use something >> like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, = RFC10001.1 to refer >> to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: >> 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. >> 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even = rough consensus to make this change. >> However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for = making this change >> than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be = able to consider >> this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either = (1) have some historical >> text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a = heightened standard >> of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we = should not have a heightened >> standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. >> -Ekr >> (Archival is in the >> introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) >> Yours, >> Joel >> On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, >> > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC = Principles". >> > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot >> > some overlaps with existing text: >> > >> > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series >> > >> > The following describes some historical properties of >> > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties >> > should not be taken forward without a strong community = consensus >> > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user >> > community of each RFC stream. >> > >> > ## Availability >> > >> > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally = for >> more >> > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal >> provisions] >> > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/ >> ) = apply. >> > >> > ## Accessibility >> > >> > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as >> accessible >> > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for = those >> > with impaired sight. >> > >> > ## Publication Language >> > >> > The publication language of the series is English. Although >> > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the >> > English version is normative. >> > >> > ## Diversity of Interests >> > >> > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published >> > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, >> speculative >> > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], = and even >> > eulogies [RFC2468]. Various communities have contributed to = the >> rich >> > history >> > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on >> networking. >> > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF >> stream, >> > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also = why the >> > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual >> expression. >> > >> > ## Document Quality >> > >> > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and = must >> > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, >> readability >> > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is >> > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid >> publication. >> > >> > Brian C >> > >> -- Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 24 17:04:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999363A0D61 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTnOYDSzzUaJ for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 860693A0D60 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:04:43 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=hq0T7vwoHA0AEghS2v/9QVk0OS11MN9xIKwAOk4KikEzwj/lRG+6tO+u0/1++e1uD378XsLobOq58sWBe+7htuFSgQsSN9aTr1pAtBNfSNE7oq93cRlpyHSUG7y4ZxgLaxEh/i/WLn6dhIFpbyCz0Bnp96Xq32a7fGtTJxtZy8nnPWqGj6dgKQNOcnQzQwdXBgJ2iFU6L2WzXeB8jaYFAjCmZhkESz/f3gtrSGdpF6pRJRp+SQrmUPyPHRJz2jx2QFrNu4h6LSpVy+WEqDhjG/H4tsiVx4pslaabR4JZZnJvvR0JV6Q12Ae9TTQy+4OSD4naGmNyfgjf66oZ4MVQRg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=YpT2HhwLwV3AHQ2ZjXjOQTWkud0wNb/Ts6Tyci3/epI=; b=ST9pD9mVMYQa+eJEnW7rXW0BgJgRtSEbQaQSp5YUqQBzYNKHzLlwP8XWJ43agqsL0V72miT8m9mCoCRC7HSa2wT9orrWhmJachzzjPLBBZQGi5emlhqTUlh3ksckztMqn25u+nartejOeK1U5nmrrlZWgdt8NlHyONVKPO9liUT1RD92ZuQY6ofVElm1wf1qaQxNbXqsNQgAfcRsiq5dJgm6j369JGVGMorjisWeUYP5qavKadGs9CaINUNJ8CRX511yTf+6ZU3vmGjm4PJ7C1JHooJRl831ecitCO1RXxaJP3T6pOFPDNzq00GVbZ9+pBfHaUznpfLifa/mUfBExw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=YpT2HhwLwV3AHQ2ZjXjOQTWkud0wNb/Ts6Tyci3/epI=; b=LZOvGFh82nuB/+iNtptBr1qT9Rx0rl6iKEIbMEIWN6S7l8VT3DPf6IZYN8dU4WFAZp8mpZFBRZDew2imD4mZcr8Go14R95iKMAONmdk4fr7SO1Na9VRTxjmUt85ufCtwRe3TAJM3JBYyjiYXcXjxF4eiO9jTly/JEfcLNb3byt6SdRemzUr+4bg/7UwUTRRUykTY3IAozx/KxoJLPftW+NaQke4Q6FUW/JLseh8ALFz5ohLUvzh+7AkESS5T/BmmCxTIndbfKN7qMa7JjCHVo4q0UZzc9KhrJuURkU1ZADLd/pe5wpIprKMJRlgF/LOv+E3sj81qU2cSPJzQC/116g== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB7435.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:244::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.22; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:04:37 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4713.027; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:04:37 +0000 Message-ID: <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:04:33 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. 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boundary="------------fxlmF6h3Mc5FWD0brlNq4oWT"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Message-ID: <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: --------------fxlmF6h3Mc5FWD0brlNq4oWT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4si0Rw0if753d7b7SWtnABky" --------------4si0Rw0if753d7b7SWtnABky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpHT1RPIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIC4uLiA6LSkNCg0KT24g MjUvMTEvMjAyMSAwMDozMCwgTWFyayBOb3R0aW5naGFtIHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4+IE9uIDI1 IE5vdiAyMDIxLCBhdCAxMTowMyBhbSwgSm9lbCBNLiBIYWxwZXJuIDxqbWhAam9lbGhhbHBl cm4uY29tPg0KPj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiANCj4+IEkgd291bGQgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgdG9w aWMgZmFsbHMgd2l0aGluIHRoZSByZW1pdCBvZiB0aGUgUlNXRy4NCj4+IA0KPj4gV2hlcmUg SSBzdXNwZWN0IHdlIGRpZmZlciBpcyBpbiB3aGF0IGFzcGVjdHMgb2YgaXQgYXJlIHNpbXBs 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hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:17:43 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:17:41 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A3D587D-8439-4061-B3C7-F22AEC236882@mnot.net> References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:17:53 -0000 > On 25 Nov 2021, at 12:04 pm, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic > is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't > personally know of any intent to try lock in personal > preferences while at the same time understanding that that's > something some of us do seem to be concerned about. >=20 > We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when > handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3 > security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more > thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing. > And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan. >=20 > So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind > of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than > rough consensus or crafting new processes? >=20 > How about we say that significant changes to these features > (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness > equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some > obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that > effect.) I think the problematic aspects here are mostly centred around creating = vague, onerous and/or external procedural hurdles to getting things done = in the RSWG. If people want to say 'handle these things with care, please' without = imposing such barriers, that's not as much of an issue to me. That said, = I don't really see the point, as presumably those people would be able = to represent their views in the RSWG and assure that proper care were = taken. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 24 17:21:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DEF3A0D9D for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rc7CZ9GHRuya for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 209C63A0D98 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id c3so5551911iob.6 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NQ3gknib1c0W9Fw3YKePr3guihC1dtzorj6fRuNBd0U=; b=OQiHfe4RasfltlAbSldffHGNuZN+4GFl4hU574YGlw7VAuWrlEOZuiqEDrbhJ8hspW jbaiMN+arwIz1L+SRKMQ9OoAiVjB9LLR1FqAq3gwUMuWAwaegMdU/kM2uILsVXjzXmz1 Pn6ictedj1gt+VparxD12wSeNAp6/3+PRNtyiGS/fI7M3FMWFIk5Q4mWrGYLspZ9tYiW X4MBvybhhWKIm7APFnG0obVtk6SvOIs3XlRW36tZuTYsZXSmlxNIfVlVN5BQzHhv8mjE anb3910WLunId6GUZ+CHjIOnOq9YdnoJy8w3VnoH6SKKMYdmrVTR6S+sjB7IWKeas+uW a9tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NQ3gknib1c0W9Fw3YKePr3guihC1dtzorj6fRuNBd0U=; b=OPaLw+0XX0nfQRHFZLRNhChC+eddaJOP4D9RUSRB2ed4mHO41/MgE1w+gQMhs9e9V4 Szt19dnr3ipyZUMnWxTKSKMIF609/KrpR7YfGq6oBEg84JZkYOCYBNLuDdT+bH93MTCe nXffGEPyTD+cchfzOFpqLXh9kIRXJnKCkeTWmnn+pKcp7Z6EONFF0AdaNmLpukLoQTDR Ua1DExYGqFbPDiLPEljobSiKXiAx5RBYUCHd6Dsrh9BofhFPN91jffsuOWa/A4iU5UEY LfUt3xC/X+LJx09aRXg04mAM0NuTdoQUBe+px5K+b5gso2Cd3KOu7YrZLAdKJeP1DT27 lvUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334lywAnAUX09MsWlfq1roZgbN90f0eKSTgeZlqOZgt8nxoWATt mrMejEcnPkCbXsS/13DMhEjgZrAQBKWV95yIRhIYw0Zqse8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5k2nQKa9w+YZTgyQWSujw9S75j0GRQwz+lDSEWPYpkgk/sw+knNuAFMKIlOtgitT3p/AYY9Jm+UJwysM78Xs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:24ca:: with SMTP id y10mr22277696jat.109.1637803269858; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:20:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001cbb9705d192ca0e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:21:17 -0000 --0000000000001cbb9705d192ca0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the > > document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- > > perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, what it > > now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that > > surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the > > series, even over the will of the broader community as expressed in > > the RSWG. > > I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic > is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't > personally know of any intent to try lock in personal > preferences while at the same time understanding that that's > something some of us do seem to be concerned about. > > We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when > handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3 > security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more > thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing. > And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan. > > So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind > of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than > rough consensus or crafting new processes? > > How about we say that significant changes to these features > (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness > equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some > obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that > effect.) > Well, I actually don't think that changes of this type should have anywhere near the level of thoroughness to major changes to protocols which represent significant fractions of Internet traffic, so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind of language. Moreover, I don't think we should be doing anything in *this* document to privilege one side or the other wrt changing anything that we know to currently be contested, and it seems to me that this text or anything like it would have that effect. Stepping back, it seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and congestion suggest that the community is perfectly capable of determining which changes need more scrutiny and which need less without any specific text. -Ekr --0000000000001cbb9705d192ca0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the
> document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- > perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, what it > now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that > surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the > series, even over the will of the broader community as expressed in > the RSWG.

I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic
is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't
personally know of any intent to try lock in personal
preferences while at the same time understanding that that's
something some of us do seem to be concerned about.

We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when
handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3
security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more
thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing.
And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan.

So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind
of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than
rough consensus or crafting new processes?

How about we say that significant changes to these features
(or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness
equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some
obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that
effect.)

Well, I actually don't thi= nk that changes of this type should
have anywhere near the level = of thoroughness to major
changes to protocols which represent sig= nificant fractions
of Internet traffic, so I wouldn't be in f= avor of this kind
of language. Moreover, I don't think we sho= uld be doing
anything in *this* document to privilege one side or= the other
wrt changing anything that we know to currently be co= ntested,
and it seems to me that this text or anything like it w= ould have
that effect.

Stepping back, it= seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and
congestion suggest = that the community is perfectly capable of
determining which chan= ges need more scrutiny and which need
less without any specific t= ext.

-Ekr

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boundary="------------uAgphxODwiwVQ0Dk6Bm3aETS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --------------uAgphxODwiwVQ0Dk6Bm3aETS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------WRJPcakbWHVXOlUHihqUJ53u" --------------WRJPcakbWHVXOlUHihqUJ53u Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpPbiAyNS8xMS8yMDIxIDAxOjIwLCBFcmljIFJlc2NvcmxhIHdyb3RlOg0K PiBPbiBXZWQsIE5vdiAyNCwgMjAyMSBhdCA1OjA0IFBNIFN0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbCA8c3Rl cGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQGNzLnRjZC5pZT4NCj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPj4NCj4+IE9uIDI1LzEx LzIwMjEgMDA6MzAsIE1hcmsgTm90dGluZ2hhbSB3cm90ZToNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IFRoaXMgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBzdGFydGVkIHdpdGggYSBkZXNpcmUgdG8gaW5jbHVkZSBwcmluY2lwbGVzIGlu 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533d3eDIHP+ryUbqUKRzNnymKyeDRXzvOm0fHsowF6bxzyhkFXUT IDK/WFvJDfGS9H7ybGHKDPoWYIoOviagg87VbUkulP2ncmo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywbAMXeuB6/lSs7KFpMIFz2Mi/UALOBaylt+KU7EsbJe9HtOCBadn4dcQ2VQ5kERUwwfGB1ov/0CJvYgjeAHs= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:854a:: with SMTP id b10mr19988647ios.213.1637805432402; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:57:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:56:36 -0800 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000028b1b05d1934bc9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:57:18 -0000 --000000000000028b1b05d1934bc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:39 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 25/11/2021 01:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farrell < > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >>> > >>> This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the > >>> document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- > >>> perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, what it > >>> now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that > >>> surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the > >>> series, even over the will of the broader community as expressed in > >>> the RSWG. > >> > >> I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic > >> is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't > >> personally know of any intent to try lock in personal > >> preferences while at the same time understanding that that's > >> something some of us do seem to be concerned about. > >> > >> We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when > >> handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3 > >> security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more > >> thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing. > >> And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan. > >> > > > >> So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind > >> of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than > >> rough consensus or crafting new processes? > >> > >> How about we say that significant changes to these features > >> (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness > >> equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some > >> obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that > >> effect.) > >> > > > > Well, I actually don't think that changes of this type should > > have anywhere near the level of thoroughness to major > > changes to protocols which represent significant fractions > > of Internet traffic, > > And I think we disagree there. *Significant* changes to > the series can easily affect all protocols including those > that represent lots of traffic. For example the one you > mentioned earlier could have such effects perhaps relating > to RFPs/conformance or badly-crafted regulations. > Fortunately, we don't have to agree, as I'm simply saying that these changes ought to go through the usual RSWG process. > so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind > > of language. Moreover, I don't think we should be doing > > anything in *this* document to privilege one side or the other > > wrt changing anything that we know to currently be contested, > > and it seems to me that this text or anything like it would have > > that effect. > > I don't see it that way TBH - I don't think at least what > I just proposed privileges any "side" (and on such topics > there are many such, not just two). > Any text which says that a change should have heightened scrutiny has the effect of making that change more difficult That's privileging one side. > > Stepping back, it seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and > > congestion suggest that the community is perfectly capable of > > determining which changes need more scrutiny and which need > > less without any specific text. > > That's fair, but doesn't that also fall afoul of mnot's > critique of Brian's text wrt "what's the community"? > I don't see why it would, no. -Ekr Cheers, > S. > > > > > -Ekr > > > --000000000000028b1b05d1934bc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:39 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

On 25/11/2021 01:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&= gt;
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>>
>>> This discussion started with a desire to include principles in= the
>>> document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argu= ed --
>>> perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, w= hat it
>>> now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies= that
>>> surface some people's desires to lock their preferences in= to the
>>> series, even over the will of the broader community as express= ed in
>>> the RSWG.
>>
>> I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problema= tic
>> is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't >> personally know of any intent to try lock in personal
>> preferences while at the same time understanding that that's >> something some of us do seem to be concerned about.
>>
>> We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when
>> handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3
>> security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more
>> thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing.
>> And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan.
>>
>
>> So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind
>> of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than
>> rough consensus or crafting new processes?
>>
>> How about we say that significant changes to these features
>> (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness
>> equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some >> obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that
>> effect.)
>>
>
> Well, I actually don't think that changes of this type should
> have anywhere near the level of thoroughness to major
> changes to protocols which represent significant fractions
> of Internet traffic,

And I think we disagree there. *Significant* changes to
the series can easily affect all protocols including those
that represent lots of traffic. For example the one you
mentioned earlier could have such effects perhaps relating
to RFPs/conformance or badly-crafted regulations.

=
Fortunately, we don't have to agree, as I'm simply sayin= g
that these changes ought to go through the usual RSWG
process.

> so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind
> of language. Moreover, I don't think we should be doing
> anything in *this* document to privilege one side or the other
> wrt changing anything that we know to currently be contested,
> and it seems to me that this text or anything like it would have
> that effect.

I don't see it that way TBH - I don't think at least what
I just proposed privileges any "side" (and on such topics
there are many such, not just two).

Any= text which says that a change should have heightened
scrutiny ha= s the effect of making that change more difficult
That's priv= ileging one side.


=C2=A0
> Stepping back, it seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and
> congestion suggest that the community is perfectly capable of
> determining which changes need more scrutiny and which need
> less without any specific text.

That's fair, but doesn't that also fall afoul of mnot's
critique of Brian's text wrt "what's the community"?
<= /blockquote>

I don't see why it would, no.
=

-Ekr

Cheers,
S.

>
> -Ekr
>
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Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --------------gfyFGmhwDIZYWiPIqRdvpb3v Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------zUeiTc86ZncgeLX00DYkcXMg" --------------zUeiTc86ZncgeLX00DYkcXMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDI1LzExLzIwMjEgMDE6NTYsIEVyaWMgUmVzY29ybGEgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEFueSB0 ZXh0IHdoaWNoIHNheXMgdGhhdCBhIGNoYW5nZSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBoZWlnaHRlbmVkDQo+ IHNjcnV0aW55IGhhcyB0aGUgZWZmZWN0IG9mIG1ha2luZyB0aGF0IGNoYW5nZSBtb3JlIGRp ZmZpY3VsdA0KDQpZZXMuIEFuZCB0aGF0J3MgYSBnb29kIGlkZWEgSU1PLCBmb3IgYSB2ZXJ5 IGxpbWl0ZWQgYW5kDQpzaG9ydCBmcmFnbWVudCBvZiB0ZXh0IHN1Y2ggYXMgQnJpYW4gcHJv 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rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11ED3A0DE5 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:23:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bh2-CDk4WMmq for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 115B93A0DE4 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J01rD53f5z1pKHV; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:23:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1637806988; bh=L6zPY3FXzFDhsTbApWwtosKECpmGQwjWUMljm3iQyPg=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=C5asUjFvnEZj+SBEEY7MQ1KBsoyociD/yFCMJ3kl5Q/kCEW4t2l8b6EPdRcYrMq1c V1qWa5uUPfOMfYrYKYecBwB2gjNSxiYBTzFBQloQ417Q+Q1biVND4N8sh3T+Wj9pZ2 I5oHFdgbudDvdWsun99J2gPldO3gvMEWA3ffK1Bg= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J01rD0Tmfz1pKHT; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:23:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:23:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Stephen Farrell Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:23:14 -0000 Based on this discussion, I am trying to think through what is going to happen with the structure as we have written it when there is a conflict. Suppose the RSWG approves a change somewhat more drastic than the one EKR has hypothesized. And suppose the RSAB looks at it and says "No, that would do damage to the long term health of the series". Let us presume that the RSAB members raised this during the discucssion, but were found by the chairs to be in the rough. (Let us assume they were in the minority. Whether or not they were in the rough depends upon which of the any definitions of rough consensus actually applies in this non-technical sort-fo-working-group.) So now the RSAB sends it back? And we have a shouting match about who has the authority to make a decision? Part of the point of requiring additional external consultation for major issues was to make sure that the RSAB either had good reasons for their objections, or could with confidence say that the larger community agrees even though it makes them (the RSAB members) nervous. How is this really supposed to work? Yours, Joel On 11/24/2021 8:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:39 PM Stephen Farrell > > wrote: > > > Hiya, > > On 25/11/2021 01:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farrell > > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >>> > >>> This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the > >>> document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- > >>> perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, > what it > >>> now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that > >>> surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the > >>> series, even over the will of the broader community as expressed in > >>> the RSWG. > >> > >> I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic > >> is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't > >> personally know of any intent to try lock in personal > >> preferences while at the same time understanding that that's > >> something some of us do seem to be concerned about. > >> > >> We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when > >> handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3 > >> security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more > >> thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing. > >> And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan. > >> > > > >> So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind > >> of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than > >> rough consensus or crafting new processes? > >> > >> How about we say that significant changes to these features > >> (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness > >> equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some > >> obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that > >> effect.) > >> > > > > Well, I actually don't think that changes of this type should > > have anywhere near the level of thoroughness to major > > changes to protocols which represent significant fractions > > of Internet traffic, > > And I think we disagree there. *Significant* changes to > the series can easily affect all protocols including those > that represent lots of traffic. For example the one you > mentioned earlier could have such effects perhaps relating > to RFPs/conformance or badly-crafted regulations. > > > Fortunately, we don't have to agree, as I'm simply saying > that these changes ought to go through the usual RSWG > process. > > > so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind > > of language. Moreover, I don't think we should be doing > > anything in *this* document to privilege one side or the other > > wrt changing anything that we know to currently be contested, > > and it seems to me that this text or anything like it would have > > that effect. > > I don't see it that way TBH - I don't think at least what > I just proposed privileges any "side" (and on such topics > there are many such, not just two). > > > Any text which says that a change should have heightened > scrutiny has the effect of making that change more difficult > That's privileging one side. > > > > Stepping back, it seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and > > congestion suggest that the community is perfectly capable of > > determining which changes need more scrutiny and which need > > less without any specific text. > > That's fair, but doesn't that also fall afoul of mnot's > critique of Brian's text wrt "what's the community"? > > > I don't see why it would, no. > > -Ekr > > Cheers, > S. > > > > > -Ekr > > > > From nobody Wed Nov 24 18:25:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB0B3A0DE5 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ucRsAf9Bjb3 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD95E3A0DE4 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id g28so3806856pgg.3 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dua2dGh91xeNtDkfsSLCaTfvVSjTgmElgUICZHIRkMo=; b=JVMQ1BifTTEZ/E/Out9vALkauK6PD4lX6trGGDBXQT5ZaBVpydnWx0k2seCtBNnf9L 9i5XNw/1b+co+S8fKiuyUm6jCmweIRQ+T4ZIy9fhCryb5I/a10H7yiDJ/H+tIvEeSmZc nUQCXLwDxD7AyKQsolcKbzuLCCVngfF1cYNRZNj5SQpJPdxM4mq0mk6mAnadAUy9r7aO 3BNs+FtDVf82JAgIQIhAkOBcOxlMoS1NJ8IVv5QXQrav+U+WWemY9qsBiG8xOea41+xR DoV4iF0byeNM1i/pCSd1dakjW76nkALiV8attLl0aIyn2WyOlN7iNG0uLKk26MbAUo2N NUyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dua2dGh91xeNtDkfsSLCaTfvVSjTgmElgUICZHIRkMo=; b=Mt18XzwP/wCh62rTP63MQdcqZEfQRuaBPM7DoX1Yzg0Au8OAfwdZ0Lyr6EIfHY34eN sP9DWuXOYC9VWbn0M/lpXyYiu4HIB9X9ibrgV/vVjQgRe4g6D03cXLnbgxVo58zn+OCp aHz4RFL3XMjjefI8FxuW0Xy+ttzLLbJGuALZXuMKENzgE3opOtESh0GZnL/Y9Be020hX JLFNlGSkMvkPlHox/dAwds7I5Do58fkSVuyNq4wfFC6XPBRvVAGyx5OuD1YB3DrJnDyt x5gfsyUmkddgrId54dCfFWSTvW4MZF3Knddjb3zeZl8NseqbLG4okCdp+yrXwNjQSd2W k1eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533XPU350uu0ndxFem+s3xRNiIbLwmelqhNX35RgT6R7Gnc5HhL2 iTapmh3SUQ9HgY7K6sQPumc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbT0pK3YuvO+3FVyagamf24Or6z7zTBZl0cWULkf4t6osCnQolPPtEd4YM6W1aC87depxC/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1c65:b0:49f:d8d0:c5d9 with SMTP id s37-20020a056a001c6500b0049fd8d0c5d9mr11006552pfw.72.1637807117374; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id rm1sm6195235pjb.3.2021.11.24.18.25.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:25:16 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Nottingham , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:25:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:25:24 -0000 On 25-Nov-21 13:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: ... > Additionally, Brian's proposal includes this language: > > """ > Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user community of each RFC stream. > """ > > ... which seems problematic, because: > > * 'Strong consensus' requires interpretation -- who judges that, and what is the bar for determining it? Can a single person argue that their objection, even if not well supported, prevents 'strong consensus'? What about five people? > > * As we've discussed ad nauseam, how does one gauge the consensus of the user community of a stream? Do we need to reconvene this body to do so, even if the RSWG already exists? This also begs the question of whether the RSWG's currently proposed mechanisms fail to achieve such consensus (as much as can be done). So how about this?: Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward without a broad discussion including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user community of each RFC stream. > > As written, these measures look more likely to guarantee that these things will never be changed. That wasn't my intention. > If we merely want to assure that any changes to them have adequate consideration and review, I again question why the RSWG's proposed processes -- executed in good faith and overseen by the RSAG -- are not adequate. Because we know from experience of pretty much every discussion of procedural or admin matters in the past that only a tiny minority of people actually take part. I don't believe that Mike's formulation addresses that issue, because that minority includes the people who end up in I* "leadership" positions anyway. So my text aims for *wider* assent than Mike's, even if informally defined. (As far as I'm concerned, that statement about "broad discussion" for these topics could be wordsmithed elsewhere in the document, e.g. in the "Community Calls for Comment" section.) Brian > This discussion started with a desire to include principles in the document, to help guide the policies defined. People have argued -- perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, what it now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies that surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the series, even over the will of the broader community as expressed in the RSWG. > > Cheers, > > >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:47 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >>> It seems to me that some version of stable document references / >>> unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("this is how things are historically") >>> and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. >>> For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it would be better if we made >>> RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objects (e.g., RFC 10001 >>> would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you could use something >>> like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, RFC10001.1 to refer >>> to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: >>> 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. >>> 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even rough consensus to make this change. >>> However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for making this change >>> than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be able to consider >>> this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either (1) have some historical >>> text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a heightened standard >>> of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should not have a heightened >>> standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. >>> -Ekr >>> (Archival is in the >>> introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> On 11/23/2021 10:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> > At the risk of finding a lot of messages in my inbox tomorrow, >>> > here's a proposed shorter alternative to Mike's "RFC Principles". >>> > Obviously a different slant, and I'm sure Peter will spot >>> > some overlaps with existing text: >>> > >>> > # Historical Properties of the RFC Editor Series >>> > >>> > The following describes some historical properties of >>> > the RFC Series. Proposals to modify any of these properties >>> > should not be taken forward without a strong community consensus >>> > including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user >>> > community of each RFC stream. >>> > >>> > ## Availability >>> > >>> > The RFC series documents have been freely available digitally for >>> more >>> > than 35 years, with no fee for access. The IETF Trust [legal >>> provisions] >>> > (https://trustee.ietf.org/documents/trust-legal-provisions/ >>> ) apply. >>> > >>> > ## Accessibility >>> > >>> > There is a general goal to make the RFC series documents as >>> accessible >>> > as possible to communities that have special needs, e.g., for those >>> > with impaired sight. >>> > >>> > ## Publication Language >>> > >>> > The publication language of the series is English. Although >>> > translations of RFCs into other languages are welcomed, the >>> > English version is normative. >>> > >>> > ## Diversity of Interests >>> > >>> > In addition to Internet standards, the RFC series has published >>> > procedural and informational documents, thought experiments, >>> speculative >>> > ideas, research papers, histories, humor [RFC1149, RFC2549], and even >>> > eulogies [RFC2468]. Various communities have contributed to the >>> rich >>> > history >>> > of the RFC series, and to its somewhat human-centric take on >>> networking. >>> > This why several streams of RFCs exist in addition to the IETF >>> stream, >>> > and why the RFC "brand" is wider than the IETF. This is also why the >>> > series does not have a "house style" and allows for individual >>> expression. >>> > >>> > ## Document Quality >>> > >>> > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must >>> > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, >>> readability >>> > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is >>> > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid >>> publication. >>> > >>> > Brian C >>> > >>> -- Rfced-future mailing list >>> Rfced-future@iab.org >>> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >>> >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Wed Nov 24 18:31:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730F93A0DE1 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:31:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=QuP2CTim; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nooGIDcl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h-i0T2aJTFIl for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6F803A0DEA for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F475C00D3; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:31:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=I N09mYbG8v7Qa8mI8CAchbNNDsqri/vB8Bim93/kfw0=; b=QuP2CTimsZHFGbjPm HpRPFic8KDBsinuBSdPIp5ZWRJbK459/UcLidsRsZdgyCTE9tVumGA9Thlg3aU5N 0Ur2fdFYW3Wf4giMHNh5AaL/rlWnvy2JspiD0Zhsbes2OIIWJV/XcI1psEr+y6ty 2wc8cnL/I0xqpiKhNpTIN9U5jRHryucTMh7Jjd2bTXzVULCs2QVZyf37PPduQjqn OXvoXmQtuBqtlO8nEttOYEdgU3j9QSBvMXd9ECVct8tsVlGYHeSzXlE3AxgSPyDQ iuLoHUcdsPwGYoPyxyNG/2B7peXeWNLOrkAA3Jl+LlbCbaPhhF6U3oaUocDxfXSq Ts0/A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IN09mYbG8v7Qa8mI8CAchbNNDsqri/vB8Bim93/kf w0=; b=nooGIDcl5ZGIb3TvgcOaGcMmi5IWZnOxsvrzrRJndYXhX35Wb7KkXfq47 oBSsIHuEi5vPJtHGs6HAz75K7I9nIGsGovUQEVrROmO5X/C0x4Ik3a2lG64iWMLe HBnWfbBuA9/16m/8rSirdEWkWhNYyLJFxHF4DA8820qzYNEkrE3L77PzDJ22Vbmv ot8CeHDdknPo/kZVkhB/Ah6xW8tSGp/vNt+HTcH3rcSI3fDhPkjorFVOANfs5sO7 qVXFV2h/Hq9st2+ljW69NV0tjl0Fq3smgUEWItkCAdJ/xoG9/LE0+3Lzmfg45jUu FPmXrHqtmC73vwF8WiU9Cou951cwQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeelgdeggecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:31:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:31:23 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:31:33 -0000 > On 25 Nov 2021, at 1:25 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken = forward without a broad discussion including not only active RSWG/RSAB = members but also the user community of each RFC stream. This is getting there. How 'broad discussion.. in the user community' is = measured may become an issue.=20 > (As far as I'm concerned, that statement about "broad discussion" for = these topics could be wordsmithed elsewhere in the document, e.g. in the = "Community Calls for Comment" section.) That would be really helpful -- it's much more in keeping with the = approach we've hammered out. In your mind, would the decision about what = needs broader attention and how it's assessed be safe in the hands of = the RSAG? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Nov 24 18:32:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E6C3A0DEB for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:32:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FvyfnJOsMO_q for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BC693A083E for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id k21so5738918ioh.4 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:32:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4+c6C97rK7jfXRdpvoBo9Wb9jH7wNVCDdSy0+RRH+UY=; b=s8QMVMCARRAD2TuijscWivLwNPnf4zVso3eNQwOWTKgZYkDRTlt1vcxuS+gqKl9wTb yVx5KGwPZ2l/Ez3FVg83lh4W595C5C58USK+UKpKmdS6XXbp0wVI4v7bj/WCAM+8jmgA 5sF0/r3i2RX90enWH35Een6QrEO1V0t01EVjeZ9pKXyISNktPGg3lYkULtWTWzQchKcT cXaNUJlljBTusuVugcaDTB/0Rvz2+WXu2Vv1O6nK1wFy5PUV0bbzLvxp4VguxB1UW99R rsoGEdVYuFeeamA7S9vFoD3yUspezq3gsDUk04DGRly7KZqs4VzTKRqlIkR6j7bPcG+i D55g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4+c6C97rK7jfXRdpvoBo9Wb9jH7wNVCDdSy0+RRH+UY=; b=tLbnfR3JRiEYF9ql+kfnvJyV8vbAmzwJV80pB5pf9joY+nD/X/wmCL+644zX2hPkZC O+8CW5pGyeKc940ZqZDz+fe7ivT1RzjqutO/l9eYtuwwMTUonDsKXwpTiNAwNEk32mKA 9zhPJIu4w9wdkYIOnL3b5cZy6kcoW8GshhZvozbZ9730U54MwW7kYWLnUUWTmNrQzAVd LtgROAK3Zg8iZIu8dpJ7QIawpixE5BP5TnCyiuwUwTNQ97ZIRUV+Z2JcU+RdEx+2rMiX krXNBfVl3cYPvWEkrxFj7wuuUwpl2GbNxQwCZR5G+fTQtIStbD7V6GS2Rg4yJU521sci hx3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gy9FzSOxwdQFmcbEqG14vLlE+WX1afxbvUbJStT+866QD0aV8 bRtUJrpxMtdBYxZXtY3H9+K4A2nfBnQNQpBuL9FuV1e5cK8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwnol5GCbMazushyzH8h8ETfvrgXB9kWV/PxLf1bRW6Ta9cGnz3Wy1QkFCaGqjXaXcQslrmO4Jsyr33PrinuM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:190f:: with SMTP id p15mr23362579jal.82.1637807529408; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:32:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> <036fd2ad-f050-20ae-d1c9-5d525b289b1d@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:31:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000004eb305d193c891" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:32:17 -0000 --000000000000004eb305d193c891 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 6:23 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Based on this discussion, I am trying to think through what is going to > happen with the structure as we have written it when there is a conflict. > > Suppose the RSWG approves a change somewhat more drastic than the one > EKR has hypothesized. > > And suppose the RSAB looks at it and says "No, that would do damage to > the long term health of the series". > Let us presume that the RSAB members raised this during the discucssion, > but were found by the chairs to be in the rough. (Let us assume they > were in the minority. Whether or not they were in the rough depends > upon which of the any definitions of rough consensus actually applies in > this non-technical sort-fo-working-group.) > > So now the RSAB sends it back? And we have a shouting match about who > has the authority to make a decision? > ISTM that the document makes quite clear in S 3.2.2 that this is within their remit, subject to appeal to the IAB that they did not follow the correct process (S 3.2.4). So I suppose we could have some shouting in the sense that anyone can shout about anything, but I don't think the process is unclear. > Part of the point of requiring additional external consultation for > major issues was to make sure that the RSAB either had good reasons for > their objections, or could with confidence say that the larger community > agrees even though it makes them (the RSAB members) nervous. > > How is this really supposed to work? > The way I understand this is that the RSAB is supposed to apply their independent judgement, regardless of whatever consensus may or may not exist. I suppose it would not be unreasonable for them to say "seeing evidence of strong consensus would reduce our concern about risk of harm to the series" -Ekr > > On 11/24/2021 8:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:39 PM Stephen Farrell > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > On 25/11/2021 01:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farrell > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >>> > > >>> This discussion started with a desire to include principles in > the > > >>> document, to help guide the policies defined. People have > argued -- > > >>> perhaps persuasively -- that doing so is necessary. However, > > what it > > >>> now seems to be morphing into is a set of pre-emptive policies > that > > >>> surface some people's desires to lock their preferences into the > > >>> series, even over the will of the broader community as > expressed in > > >>> the RSWG. > > >> > > >> I agree that arguing that "strong consensus" is problematic > > >> is a fair criticism of Brian's good text, though I don't > > >> personally know of any intent to try lock in personal > > >> preferences while at the same time understanding that that's > > >> something some of us do seem to be concerned about. > > >> > > >> We do have a history of being somewhat more thorough when > > >> handling some changes compared to others though. E.g. TLS1.3 > > >> security properties or TCP congestion rightly tend to be more > > >> thoroughly considered than your average change or new thing. > > >> And I'd hope we'd agree that's been a good plan. > > >> > > > > > >> So maybe there's a form of words to try describe that kind > > >> of thoroughness, without inventing some new better thing than > > >> rough consensus or crafting new processes? > > >> > > >> How about we say that significant changes to these features > > >> (or even principles:-) call for a level of thoroughness > > >> equivalent to what we'd want if discussing a change to some > > >> obviously important Internet protocol? (Or words to that > > >> effect.) > > >> > > > > > > Well, I actually don't think that changes of this type should > > > have anywhere near the level of thoroughness to major > > > changes to protocols which represent significant fractions > > > of Internet traffic, > > > > And I think we disagree there. *Significant* changes to > > the series can easily affect all protocols including those > > that represent lots of traffic. For example the one you > > mentioned earlier could have such effects perhaps relating > > to RFPs/conformance or badly-crafted regulations. > > > > > > Fortunately, we don't have to agree, as I'm simply saying > > that these changes ought to go through the usual RSWG > > process. > > > > > so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind > > > of language. Moreover, I don't think we should be doing > > > anything in *this* document to privilege one side or the other > > > wrt changing anything that we know to currently be contested, > > > and it seems to me that this text or anything like it would have > > > that effect. > > > > I don't see it that way TBH - I don't think at least what > > I just proposed privileges any "side" (and on such topics > > there are many such, not just two). > > > > > > Any text which says that a change should have heightened > > scrutiny has the effect of making that change more difficult > > That's privileging one side. > > > > > > > Stepping back, it seems to me that the examples of TLS 1.3 and > > > congestion suggest that the community is perfectly capable of > > > determining which changes need more scrutiny and which need > > > less without any specific text. > > > > That's fair, but doesn't that also fall afoul of mnot's > > critique of Brian's text wrt "what's the community"? > > > > > > I don't see why it would, no. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Cheers, > > S. > > > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > --000000000000004eb305d193c891 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 6:23 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Ba= sed on this discussion, I am trying to think through what is going to
happen with the structure as we have written it when there is a conflict.
Suppose the RSWG approves a change somewhat more drastic than the one
EKR has hypothesized.

And suppose the RSAB looks at it and says "No, that would do damage to=
the long term health of the series".
Let us presume that the RSAB members raised this during the discucssion, but were found by the chairs to be in the rough.=C2=A0 (Let us assume they =
were in the minority.=C2=A0 Whether or not they were in the rough depends <= br> upon which of the any definitions of rough consensus actually applies in this non-technical sort-fo-working-group.)

So now the RSAB sends it back?=C2=A0 And we have a shouting match about who=
has the authority to make a decision?
ISTM that the document makes quite clear in S 3.2.2 that this is within th= eir remit,

may not exist. I suppose it would not be unreasonable for them to
say "seeing evidence of strong consensus would reduce our concern
about risk of harm to the series"

-Ekr




On 11/24/2021 8:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:39 PM Stephen Farrell
> <ste= phen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>> wrote:
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hiya,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 25/11/2021 01:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 5:04 PM Stephen Farre= ll
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&= gt;>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 25/11/2021 00:30, Mark Nottingham wrot= e:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> This discussion started with a desire= to include principles in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> document, to help guide the policies = defined. People have argued --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> perhaps persuasively -- that doing so= is necessary. However,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> now seems to be morphing into is a se= t of pre-emptive policies that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> surface some people's desires to = lock their preferences into the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> series, even over the will of the bro= ader community as expressed in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> the RSWG.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I agree that arguing that "strong co= nsensus" is problematic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> is a fair criticism of Brian's good t= ext, though I don't
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> personally know of any intent to try lock= in personal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> preferences while at the same time unders= tanding that that's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> something some of us do seem to be concer= ned about.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> We do have a history of being somewhat mo= re thorough when
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> handling some changes compared to others = though. E.g. TLS1.3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> security properties or TCP congestion rig= htly tend to be more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> thoroughly considered than your average c= hange or new thing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> And I'd hope we'd agree that'= s been a good plan.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> So maybe there's a form of words to t= ry describe that kind
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> of thoroughness, without inventing some n= ew better thing than
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> rough consensus or crafting new processes= ?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> How about we say that significant changes= to these features
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> (or even principles:-) call for a level o= f thoroughness
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> equivalent to what we'd want if discu= ssing a change to some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> obviously important Internet protocol? (O= r words to that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> effect.)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, I actually don't think that changes= of this type should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > have anywhere near the level of thoroughness = to major
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes to protocols which represent signific= ant fractions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of Internet traffic,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And I think we disagree there. *Significant* change= s to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the series can easily affect all protocols includin= g those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that represent lots of traffic. For example the one= you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mentioned earlier could have such effects perhaps r= elating
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to RFPs/conformance or badly-crafted regulations. >
>
> Fortunately, we don't have to agree, as I'm simply saying
> that these changes ought to go through the usual RSWG
> process.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > so I wouldn't be in favor of this kind >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of language. Moreover, I don't think we s= hould be doing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > anything in *this* document to privilege one = side or the other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrt changing anything that we know to current= ly be contested,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and it seems to me that this text or anything= like it would have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that effect.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't see it that way TBH - I don't think= at least what
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I just proposed privileges any "side" (an= d on such topics
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there are many such, not just two).
>
>
> Any text which says that a change should have heightened
> scrutiny has the effect of making that change more difficult
> That's privileging one side.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Stepping back, it seems to me that the exampl= es of TLS 1.3 and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > congestion suggest that the community is perf= ectly capable of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > determining which changes need more scrutiny = and which need
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > less without any specific text.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That's fair, but doesn't that also fall afo= ul of mnot's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0critique of Brian's text wrt "what's t= he community"?
>
>
> I don't see why it would, no.
>
> -Ekr
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
>
--000000000000004eb305d193c891-- From nobody Wed Nov 24 18:52:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952AD3A0E22 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HQ3ARY1E-7X1 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF8453A0E21 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id v23so4026815pjr.5 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NIUjjRijrnVfkAxdwcrm8b++D3thpZqc2/Habnxp4g8=; b=XqO/7MzV41Xxyk+UFQiVtmklRAEVBrgCqDbj8/V43pokkBLnq5a4iJXG4I3VU55D2d s9eG4zA3xqE9Warte2vJxD9eYr1lMsd5Y9Rss3OVKRchBDk5Xeh3VG+WTvvMt0VHZBbf VxuYCkw1VS8gW19r8huMwGazttVOcmuzmryvrCDubJRjun2DKm9QmBOEZupgDJbKjbrp QZgWLGSOT/YBe97TdFYQnhUDFy/HqaHIj5/lPE53qPYc4ncnZlq+cpfZyJ2ZDKW+stcu fCfl2BuWoN6rTtqMHgelG1glP/gK7eYdLSGsdvizvVIahFQKlBZHRiF0RUnfV8zlfZ2e 3/Ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NIUjjRijrnVfkAxdwcrm8b++D3thpZqc2/Habnxp4g8=; b=oumec2qPRS/ItcRMUJ6XzO12w+VjoOPh75q9jTYZfq+Tc/Fk2kXyH7XUbjQqKAZ94R Q+GwsFM9OEMohKowQBS3ztmQLJDMWkTCV984MvItlCcvT2/I6Z30BK+RTvt6Q5bqQQbx 43OyGdM1xWkZZKMylRrGePjNJSZRq3h+aRqzDaaFQ8Gh8z3TaizLOJgJ3+2SkrrJW89x iRLoflR9oQrfiaKVqZmczkS2bBeZ6TvmKCgOzyd/rYTLVabP3Xc0omNLo/rm7IF6A0tw 7ix1z2bCHCk74mZZbwfVAluRcyTWe+0W0h1dy8u/2ZFSB/TKLjdl/AOTaUwFXOAlLxl/ 6Raw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ISM7vJ4uSJAFqkTyTServoEcq9BEsBcE2BGf2TnrqT1XoGujq uv/U4qpeIFt5cdNA2Hc0Hjngx3SdUSV4hg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8eN/V0NP72zSBsJXnt/eCKMavkU3NmTd8N+MsoxHcD38CWA0IK7dYhYT9tMU/z+ya/gNSaQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4d08:: with SMTP id mw8mr2853365pjb.236.1637808740433; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm1096009pfl.60.2021.11.24.18.52.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:52:19 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:52:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:52:25 -0000 On 25-Nov-21 15:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 25 Nov 2021, at 1:25 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward without a broad discussion including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user community of each RFC stream. > > This is getting there. How 'broad discussion.. in the user community' is measured may become an issue. Like how you measure community assent for anything, I think. Taking the example of RFC10001.1 again, if the response from the community is mainly or "Great Idea", or mainly "Off with their heads!", the RSWG/RSAB will know how to proceed. > >> (As far as I'm concerned, that statement about "broad discussion" for these topics could be wordsmithed elsewhere in the document, e.g. in the "Community Calls for Comment" section.) > > That would be really helpful -- it's much more in keeping with the approach we've hammered out. In your mind, would the decision about what needs broader attention and how it's assessed be safe in the hands of the RSAG? I think that would be OK. Regards Brian From nobody Wed Nov 24 20:14:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0E73A0E86 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KHEMxUpwuwY3 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEC773A0E88 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse172.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.172] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx136.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mq69T-000Byr-QD for rfced-future@iab.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 05:14:28 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4J04Jd3rbGz9xc for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mq69R-0001m9-DK for rfced-future@iab.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:25 -0800 Received: (qmail 1777 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2021 04:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [172.16.130.51]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[63.145.202.35]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 25 Nov 2021 04:14:24 -0000 Message-ID: <7e187233-c565-3829-50f5-a4545c1bd938@huitema.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:14:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.172 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yXEnUqtuiszqcStXlDoE9S53HEEk0VSrq03gtFxbC/Kurz 5NSWnCfDkfqHaapmVOyonaNQbqJUPRwZtKOTN8gOSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVYCXtXThaA7B1BnC/ovCXH5otTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WUhy/LP m2rFgOGYwKKX1POmkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgjI4WE+pjPnfrWRF8b8VMd2 nzJXaFMvlUTNH7Hp54LTb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAluJ0SglayLaTRkom8G41+zS3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlavFEx o6UxPdgE1l1Im3dwgLUBHuQwNmbYfYUagW8R5EtRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5ZxogLlovammWbZjS+ Ba2H5pHzWMmvk0UHbhiG5Vg3xxiN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 04:14:38 -0000 On 11/24/2021 6:52 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Like how you measure community assent for anything, I think. Taking > the example of RFC10001.1 again... Which of course is a straw-man, because design by committee will likely produce something like RFC10001.2053.r05... -- Christian Huitema From nobody Wed Nov 24 23:09:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2596B3A0FC0 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:09:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tVAJ9TEceJvm for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7B133A0FBF for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J08B31gTgz2xMV; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:08:59 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:08:58 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <95766EC3-6E6F-4E69-AC84-3CE5E139F0FC@tzi.org> References: To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 07:09:06 -0000 On 24. Nov 2021, at 04:43, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > ## Document Quality >=20 > Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must > be of use to a widespread international community, quality, = readability > and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is > understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication. This misses out on the actual overriding requirement underlying all of = this: The documents need to be suitable for their intended purpose. For standards, this implies stability, and usability as a technical = reference (which includes the ability, and desire, to reference it from = another standard). For IRTF documents, this implies fitting into the publication concept = (which includes ability and appropriateness of referencing it in another = publication). As this involves other entities that need to make adoption decisions, = for most purposes, this also implies maintaining, and building upon, the = reputation of the series (in addition to, and interlinked with, the = reputation of each of its streams). This is rather difficult to capture, but probably the most important = (and most difficult to attain/easy to damage) concept that needs to = survive the tsunami of process changes. This is not a principle that was present in this form for RFC 1, but it = certainly has been relevant at least since the 1990s. =20 Rather obviously, it never has been written up while it became more and = more important over time, so we can=E2=80=99t just cite/interpret the = founding fathers. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 25 02:19:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AD53A048D for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:19:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0ZvAvNZ5XGP for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-OS0-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-os0jpn01on2072a.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f403:700c::72a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 572323A0476 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:19:10 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=PvhPZAK65ordZwQlXuiViw7kneeUzJ9fOIGjoFRgj54OLgO7vA23NNMa7rRj62E7nah/csbjGa1821Ky6mZ4+uZgVXDuiVb1Te9HnF7apgl16zC9McyULnantvkydFbpVDTUVFdyFUK4rXMOTBTCvDjyVm7Tc5JcvrRObMnGnyrJ+3LqbVaPT7lRDZjdh9qFp+g5s2a+swcBh8TKyHpda7hnjbArgdeAs+EEagBA2rmA9uPgXYIUXNQAl8rAzhuRqHbLKmhWVN4j3aavochmHPbykHjKANTyxqNYZ3PbRHwnzr+LnO6mP8HvszioH/eOesb/5RKl/nsnWFFih2DnVQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=7eOiA3ozou8jSopj3AuWsV2nL5Wyhht4708kgEzIHUU=; b=XtObZxsJDAxCgNuGtYZgF+70HX4v0q6zuLCrUeWlAvjW+iTV7tDcbAvAh3A1hahMDPaQsySE9xkCeUUn/kQsn00VQNWqj72hX1xHyPUNCpH3g5Po+KC0hG8n43i6SpxtvpFmH0TNAoL7cceHcy/cfvMBVcI1tgMYNoH2r0QdgoXiMVdrECsyNe+Mo1872V8NP/2GArcRvQVS9JyZb7HzPWtk8j8+J6PlQJPGZU433/idPRQ9gq/YbtC0sxlWu2Gf4n5CzayQIQFZupObSn3Kuhv/qwMCRigXqVBE6Ud8PGKQKpGwH6TNBK6GPKg8kR9VXlWbZJVitL1GEqtFr4XtjA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7eOiA3ozou8jSopj3AuWsV2nL5Wyhht4708kgEzIHUU=; b=d4+/uck+GjDhvf6YfPI5+5ThGt4ejR7eI+rzkzEPCRV8rae5exu3m89g/kLGlW0DhepLUzBDZ5L2PltEJ+4V9AAz2w2V9Nxcv2MhT56pTsUxqP4IrgG9y+3YswDrNrFGYc4jWVX+2dsXMierShhOF2dCq5vfQH3rEsUJ9jjw78c= Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYCPR01MB6189.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:400:4d::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4713.21; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:19:04 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4713.026; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:19:04 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:19:02 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. 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Halpern wrote: > >> It seems to me that some version of stable document references / >> unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. > > > I think this gets at the intersection between the descriptive ("this is how > things are historically") > and the normative ("extra consensus is required to change") angles. > > For example, I doubt it's any surprise to people here that I think it would > be better if we made > RFCs #s correspond to semantically identical rather than bitwise objects > (e.g., RFC 10001 > would point to a document that incorporated errata, etc. and that you could > use something > like RFC 10001.0 to refer to the originally published version, RFC10001.1 > to refer > to the first tranche of errata, etc.). I agree that: I'm not sure what the right solution will be, but the recent RFC 9141, which says Title: Updating References to the IETF FTP Service Updates: RFC 2077, RFC 2418, RFC 2648, RFC 2954, RFC 2955, RFC 3020, RFC 3083, RFC 3201, RFC 3202, RFC 3295, RFC 3684, RFC 3962, RFC 3970, RFC 4036, RFC 4131, RFC 4251, RFC 4323, RFC 4546, RFC 4547, RFC 4639, RFC 4682, RFC 5098, RFC 5428, RFC 6756, RFC 7241 to me definitely suggests that *something* in the direction of RFC10001.1 (not sure exactly what) may be desirable. The convenience of the everyday reader of an RFC surely should have priority over the needs of historians and patent lawyers, who can easily take an extra step to find the original. [Aside: It may actually be designed so that it isn't used retroactively, i.e. only numbers above 10000 would have decimal places (not sure Eric intended it that way), and older RFCs would first have to go through one 'traditional' revision. Introducing such a change at 10000 would have the additional advantage that external bodies might have to change some of their software to handle 5-digit RFC numbers anyway.] But the devil is in the details. The W3C recently made it easier to issue Recommendations including errata, but it's not clear that the way they do it currently will stay for long because it's quite tedious on editors,... > 1. This is not how the RFC series has traditionally been managed. > 2. Many people do not agree with me and we do not currently have even rough > consensus to make this change. > > However, I don't agree that we should have a heightened process for making > this change > than other changes (indeed, isn't part of the point of the RSWG to be able > to consider > this kind of thing?). For that reason, while it might be OK to either (1) > have some historical > text with nothing about a heightened standard of approval (2) have a > heightened standard > of approval only for principles that we all agree should be, we should not > have a heightened > standard of approval for the very principles which are contested. I don't think about a heightened standard in terms of contested or not. I think about it in terms of how wide an effect it has. For the example above, it's very clear to me that the RSWG/RSAG can't do this alone. They may have the most perfect solution (in terms of technical publishing,...), and the most perfect consensus, but if the streams don't care (in the sense that they never approve a .1 version), or want something else (year instead of decimal digit, you name it, or see Christian's mail :-), no kind of consensus in the RSWG/RSAG will help. So saying, in one way or another, that some things require extra work makes sense to me. People who understand things (which includes people on this list now) will recognize that as something obvious, but it may help others, in particular newcomers and outsiders, understand the situation. The exact form that "these require extra care" takes isn't too important to me, as long as it's written down somewhere in our document. Regards, Martin. > -Ekr From nobody Thu Nov 25 03:53:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820EE3A07A0 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:53:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EGB9JLiUxiKd for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 574FF3A0799 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p5b353c56.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([91.53.60.86] helo=emb-w4epjhc9.fritz.box); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mqDJt-0005Sz-6F; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:53:41 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Message-Id: <08127983-7CA1-49F4-9FB6-B20158352E64@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_686390E5-5AEC-4E3A-AD49-DA18D8282A7A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:53:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Brian E Carpenter , rfced-future@iab.org To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637841226;3a97fc4c; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mqDJt-0005Sz-6F Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] RFC8729 and principles [was: Re: Historical Properties] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:53:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_686390E5-5AEC-4E3A-AD49-DA18D8282A7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Peter, Thanks for digging this out. Actually looking at RFC8729 it already = talks about principles, and the mission of the RFGC series is written = down there as well: 2 . RFC Series = Mission The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, including general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community as well as standards documents. RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the Internet. The principles covered n RFC8729 are Archiving, Indexing, and = Accessibility as well as uniform style and content for RFCs across all = streams. It seems to me that RFC8729 is the right place for the principle and if = we think need to add additional things, this should probably be a = separate document to update to RFC8729. I think what=E2=80=99s not covered from Brian=E2=80=99s text is = publication language, diversity of Interests, and document quality. But = at least I personally remain less connivence that these are series-wide = principles or rather than per-stream principles. For the IETF stream = quality is covered by the IETF mission. Maybe there is a point about = diversity of opinions but I would think that is implicitly anchored by = the way the current stream structure is set up in RFC8729. And we = already have a different process to change this structure. Not sure need anything else in the RFC model document. Actually having = looked again at RFC8729, I=E2=80=99m now even more convinced hat then = RFC (operation) model is the wrong place to write down these principles. Mirja P.S. Btw. RFC8729 also says=20 =E2=80=9Cthe role of the IAB is focused on ensuring that principles are = met=E2=80=9D. In draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model we say "This document updates [RFC8729] by replacing the RFC Editor role with = the RSWG, RSAB, and RSCE.=E2=80=9D but nothing about the role of the IAB. > On 24. Nov 2021, at 22:44, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 11/24/21 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> It seems to me that some version of stable document references / = unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list. (Archival is in the = introduction. Repeating here seems sensible to me.) >=20 > I searched some relevant RFCs for the term "archive" or "archival"; = although there are brief or passing mentions in RFC 1358, RFC 1601, RFC = 2555, RFC 5540, and RFC 8700 (and perhaps others), the most relevant = information comes from RFC 4844 (and its successor, RFC 8729)... >=20 > ### >=20 > 1. Introduction >=20 > The first Request for Comments (RFC) document was published in April > of 1969 as part of the effort to design and build what we now know = of > as the Internet. Since then, the RFC Series has been the archival > series dedicated to documenting Internet technical specifications, > including both general contributions from the Internet research and > engineering community as well as standards documents. >=20 > ... >=20 > As the IETF has grown up and celebrated its own 20 years of history, > its requirements for archival publication of its output have changed > and become more rigorous. >=20 > ... >=20 > As part of its charter (see Appendix A), the IAB has a = responsibility > for the RFC Editor. Acknowledging the IETF's and the general > Internet engineering and research community's evolving needs, the = IAB > would like to see a future for the RFC Series that continues to meet > its original mandate of providing the archival series for the > technical research and engineering documentation that describes the > Internet. >=20 > ... >=20 > 2. RFC Series Mission >=20 > The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting > Internet technical specifications, including general contributions > from the Internet research and engineering community as well as > standards documents. >=20 > ... >=20 > 4. Framework >=20 > ... >=20 > There are 3 categories of activity, and a 4th category of = series-wide > rules and guidelines, described for implementing the RFC Series to > support its mission: >=20 > o Approval of documents. >=20 > o Editing, processing, and publication of documents. >=20 > o Archiving and indexing the documents and making them accessible. >=20 > o Series rules and guidelines. >=20 > ... >=20 > Each stream has its own documented approval process. The RFC Editor > is responsible for the approval of documents in one of the streams > (Independent Submission stream, see Section 5.1.4) and works with = the > other approving bodies to ensure smooth passage of approved = documents > into the next phases, ultimately to publication and archiving as an > RFC. >=20 > ... >=20 > 4.3. Archiving, Indexing, and Accessibility >=20 > The activities of archiving, indexing, and making accessible the RFC > Series can be informed by specific subject matter expertise in > general document series editing. It is also important that they are > informed by requirements from the whole community. As long as the > RFC Series is to remain coherent, there should be uniform archiving > and indexing of RFCs across all streams and a common method of > accessing the resulting documents. >=20 > 4.3.1. Definition >=20 > In principle, there should be a community consensus document > describing the archiving, indexing, and accessibility requirements > for the RFC Series. In practice, we continue with the archive as > built by the capable RFC Editors since the series' inception. >=20 > Any specific concrete requirements for the archive, index, and > accessibility operations are the subject of agreements between the > IASA and the RFC Editor (e.g., contracts, statements of work, = service > level agreements, etc). >=20 > 4.3.2. Operational Implementation >=20 > The RFC Editor is responsible for ensuring that the RFC archive and > index are maintained appropriately and that the resulting documents > are made available to anybody wishing to access them via the > Internet. The RFC Editor works with the IASA for regular reporting > and feedback. >=20 > 4.3.3. Process Change >=20 > Should there be a community move to propose changes to the > requirements for the RFC archive and index or accessibility, the IAB > will work with the RFC Editor to get community input and it will > approve changes by validating appropriate consideration of community > requirements. >=20 > ... >=20 > 6. Security Considerations >=20 > The processes for the publication of documents must prevent the > introduction of unapproved changes. Since the RFC Editor maintains > the index of publications, sufficient security must be in place to > prevent these published documents from being changed by external > parties. The archive of RFC documents, any source documents needed > to recreate the RFC documents, and any associated original documents > (such as lists of errata, tools, and, for some early items, non- > machine readable originals) need to be secured against failure of = the > storage medium and other similar disasters. >=20 > ### >=20 > By my reading, the term "archival series" is shorthand for the fact = that there's an archive (i.e., a public store and record) of the = documents that have been published in the series. Maintaining this = archive is part of the RPC responsibilities defined in previous versions = of the RFC Editor Model as well as in the Internet-Draft we're working = on in this Program, so I don't see anything especially controversial = about including more text from Section 4.3 of RFC 4844/8729 in our = document. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_686390E5-5AEC-4E3A-AD49-DA18D8282A7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Peter,

Thanks for = digging this out. Actually looking at RFC8729 it already talks about = principles, and the mission of the RFGC series is written down there as = well:

2. RFC Series = Mission
   The RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting
   Internet technical specifications, including general contributions
   from the Internet research and engineering community as well as
   standards documents.

   RFCs are available free of charge to anyone via the =
Internet.

The = principles covered n RFC8729 are Archiving, Indexing, and Accessibility = as well as uniform style and content for RFCs across all = streams.

It seems to me that RFC8729 is = the right place for the principle and if we think need to add = additional things, this should probably be a separate document = to update to RFC8729.

I think what=E2=80=99s not covered from Brian=E2=80=99s = text is publication language, diversity of Interests, and document = quality. But at least I personally remain less connivence that = these are series-wide principles or rather than = per-stream principles. For the IETF stream quality is covered by = the IETF mission. Maybe there is a point about diversity of = opinions but I would think that is implicitly anchored by the way = the current stream structure is set up in RFC8729. And we already = have a different process to change this structure.

Not sure need anything else in = the RFC model document. Actually having looked again at RFC8729, I=E2=80=99= m now even more convinced hat then RFC (operation) model = is the wrong place to write down these = principles.

Mirja

P.S. Btw. RFC8729 also says 

=E2=80=9Cthe = role of the IAB is focused on ensuring that principles are = met=E2=80=9D.

In draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model we = say

"This document = updates [RFC8729] by replacing the = RFC Editor role with the RSWG, RSAB, and RSCE.=E2=80=9D

but nothing about the role of the = IAB.





On 24. Nov 2021, at 22:44, Peter Saint-Andre = <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On = 11/24/21 8:47 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
It seems to me that some version of stable = document references / unmodifiabl / archival belongs in that list.  = (Archival is in the introduction.  Repeating here seems sensible to = me.)

I searched some relevant = RFCs for the term "archive" or "archival"; although there are brief or = passing mentions in RFC 1358, RFC 1601, RFC 2555, RFC 5540, and RFC 8700 = (and perhaps others), the most relevant information comes from RFC 4844 = (and its successor, RFC 8729)...

###

1.  Introduction

  The first Request for Comments (RFC) document = was published in April
  of 1969 as part of the = effort to design and build what we now know of
=   as the Internet.  Since then, the RFC Series has been = the archival
  series dedicated to documenting = Internet technical specifications,
  including = both general contributions from the Internet research and
=   engineering community as well as standards documents.

  ...

=   As the IETF has grown up and celebrated its own 20 years of = history,
  its requirements for archival = publication of its output have changed
  and = become more rigorous.

  ...

  As part of its charter (see = Appendix A), the IAB has a responsibility
  for = the RFC Editor.  Acknowledging the IETF's and the general
  Internet engineering and research community's = evolving needs, the IAB
  would like to see a = future for the RFC Series that continues to meet
=   its original mandate of providing the archival series for = the
  technical research and engineering = documentation that describes the
  Internet.

  ...

2.=  RFC Series Mission

  The = RFC Series is the archival series dedicated to documenting
=   Internet technical specifications, including general = contributions
  from the Internet research and = engineering community as well as
  standards = documents.

  ...
4.  Framework

=   ...

  There are 3 = categories of activity, and a 4th category of series-wide
=   rules and guidelines, described for implementing the RFC = Series to
  support its mission:

  o  Approval of documents.

  o  Editing, processing, and = publication of documents.

  o =  Archiving and indexing the documents and making them = accessible.

  o  Series = rules and guidelines.

  ...

  Each stream has its own = documented approval process.  The RFC Editor
=   is responsible for the approval of documents in one of the = streams
  (Independent Submission stream, see = Section 5.1.4) and works with the
  other = approving bodies to ensure smooth passage of approved documents
  into the next phases, ultimately to publication = and archiving as an
  RFC.

  ...

4.3. =  Archiving, Indexing, and Accessibility

=   The activities of archiving, indexing, and making = accessible the RFC
  Series can be informed by = specific subject matter expertise in
  general = document series editing.  It is also important that they are
  informed by requirements from the whole = community.  As long as the
  RFC Series is = to remain coherent, there should be uniform archiving
=   and indexing of RFCs across all streams and a common method = of
  accessing the resulting documents.

4.3.1.  Definition

  In principle, there should be a community = consensus document
  describing the archiving, = indexing, and accessibility requirements
  for = the RFC Series.  In practice, we continue with the archive as
  built by the capable RFC Editors since the = series' inception.

  Any = specific concrete requirements for the archive, index, and
=   accessibility operations are the subject of agreements = between the
  IASA and the RFC Editor (e.g., = contracts, statements of work, service
  level = agreements, etc).

4.3.2.  Operational = Implementation

  The RFC Editor = is responsible for ensuring that the RFC archive and
=   index are maintained appropriately and that the resulting = documents
  are made available to anybody = wishing to access them via the
  Internet. =  The RFC Editor works with the IASA for regular reporting
  and feedback.

4.3.3. =  Process Change

  Should = there be a community move to propose changes to the
=   requirements for the RFC archive and index or accessibility, = the IAB
  will work with the RFC Editor to get = community input and it will
  approve changes = by validating appropriate consideration of community
=   requirements.

=   ...

6.  Security = Considerations

  The processes = for the publication of documents must prevent the
=   introduction of unapproved changes.  Since the RFC = Editor maintains
  the index of publications, = sufficient security must be in place to
=   prevent these published documents from being changed by = external
  parties.  The archive of RFC = documents, any source documents needed
  to = recreate the RFC documents, and any associated original documents
  (such as lists of errata, tools, and, for some = early items, non-
  machine readable originals) = need to be secured against failure of the
=   storage medium and other similar disasters.

###

By my reading, the term = "archival series" is shorthand for the fact that there's an archive = (i.e., a public store and record) of the documents that have been = published in the series. Maintaining this archive is part of the RPC = responsibilities defined in previous versions of the RFC Editor Model as = well as in the Internet-Draft we're working on in this Program, so I = don't see anything especially controversial about including more text = from Section 4.3 of RFC 4844/8729 in our document.

Peter

--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

= --Apple-Mail=_686390E5-5AEC-4E3A-AD49-DA18D8282A7A-- From nobody Thu Nov 25 03:57:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5723A0798 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtTZpB6sedmJ for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 632AB3A079E for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee7466f00bd519d3f16a9f379.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e746:6f00:bd51:9d3f:16a9:f379]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1mqDNo-0008IN-4C; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:57:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:57:43 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3ACD5320-8A73-4623-86CD-EA75BBAD9F8B@kuehlewind.net> References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1637841468;02b21b6b; X-HE-SMSGID: 1mqDNo-0008IN-4C Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:57:53 -0000 Below. > On 25. Nov 2021, at 03:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 25 Nov 2021, at 1:25 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >> Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken = forward without a broad discussion including not only active RSWG/RSAB = members but also the user community of each RFC stream. >=20 > This is getting there. How 'broad discussion.. in the user community' = is measured may become an issue.=20 My assumption was that it is actually part of the role of the RSAB to = figure which document needs broad outreach and send out calls = respectively and which things might be rather smaller detailed changes = that might be less relevant for the specific community the RSAB member = is representing. I agree to the comments below that we might want to rather add something = in the "Community Calls for Comment=E2=80=9D section about different = levels of outreach potentially needed if that is not explicitly covered = yet. Mirja >=20 >> (As far as I'm concerned, that statement about "broad discussion" for = these topics could be wordsmithed elsewhere in the document, e.g. in the = "Community Calls for Comment" section.) >=20 > That would be really helpful -- it's much more in keeping with the = approach we've hammered out. In your mind, would the decision about what = needs broader attention and how it's assessed be safe in the hands of = the RSAG? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 25 12:46:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222E43A07D1 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:46:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opdHSkT2xO2L for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A52D3A07D3 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id p17so6218579pgj.2 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:45:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r3bt26BJGMzg95+E5knPdLNo7F/P3Dxe0zjKq7iRj9A=; b=fkgpgKLsNlMTa7B85vodsmAwZj9KsMj64XcqSmKF/F2Jl0/UtxKPYOFoTpKsFCklh5 HbFYKDa7I+Lqo5ELnWax+j7luTsk0FQalycNdd/mEy4zE9KDU9Vu/U254CzGUG12uig2 RQYor0mUQ09EuAwM0oAgHnVusaPTWEpG2hZlgDx33EFFoEd7XaSJXm39EwJRTGAjh2Qi bJ3AjQaiyx9BLxIun08o/O8CJZ01h58rBVBHu4x8NCREg2i+W+LBVCy3uH+YzEoS1MU9 eNIggD2sbB77tyFEji1KBcSDChPFBZjotMupwcPQEo3vW61nkqqmQUcWXfiWqVv1mTwv gJ8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=r3bt26BJGMzg95+E5knPdLNo7F/P3Dxe0zjKq7iRj9A=; b=6a4KvNRcq1nwjOLNdiZ2TOnJS1/6NnOEJckCz5AkFf1sHO/bbns8x8KLbPZ4fZWAyL mn+R6qpvKQCkBTrUpzzagDxRwP/nYE/KaLCcjcz0iqy8aP+6dslSQtnph9VyWk6kS1r6 de9qYrR1w2/mYtCR8yOFon9wZ/h2UCHV9iqN1Hve+PmEw9lr3XtteyVCmUvmtqrRtHyb GqSMXZ6B3qNUIKftdsT07KrRx+uw+jTwarwzauzgFl6Ge5P4tiI+wnxtsrYDcNdQAwLi byMox76+jgqt06XdgV36MnAiVBbEcGgkEOAdInJn0LVHPGsfDUacGX2VG1bCTl1qKNIv Qs1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307ZS9VhLAZi+j0qg9XjE6TTfaVPvBKcmSUa6U1mehA+tT366Gs f/63ifKbgY5xTFYLXK9NZKw5XFaF+Vdt/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzO8ke3KucLrcpy4jqTFKFZKMXR8gfT3KVVO8a1+3zSwPjRaTSlM8W7kx3pIFmXYKiB05rCsg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2171:b0:47f:d231:25f6 with SMTP id r17-20020a056a00217100b0047fd23125f6mr17077212pff.4.1637873155016; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l4sm4595283pfc.121.2021.11.25.12.45.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) To: Carsten Bormann Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <95766EC3-6E6F-4E69-AC84-3CE5E139F0FC@tzi.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4e575764-63d0-83e3-a979-b6fa17994237@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:45:49 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <95766EC3-6E6F-4E69-AC84-3CE5E139F0FC@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 20:46:01 -0000 On 25-Nov-21 20:08, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 24. Nov 2021, at 04:43, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> ## Document Quality >> >> Nevertheless, since RFCs need to be archived indefinitely and must >> be of use to a widespread international community, quality, readabilit= y >> and accuracy are key to the success of the RFC Series. It is >> understood that sometimes this stands in the way of rapid publication.= >=20 > This misses out on the actual overriding requirement underlying all of = this: > The documents need to be suitable for their intended purpose. Well yes, but that implies that we agree what the intended purposes are (plural intended). Isn't that for each stream to define for itself? Brian >=20 > For standards, this implies stability, and usability as a technical ref= erence (which includes the ability, and desire, to reference it from anot= her standard). > For IRTF documents, this implies fitting into the publication concept (= which includes ability and appropriateness of referencing it in another p= ublication). >=20 > As this involves other entities that need to make adoption decisions, f= or most purposes, this also implies maintaining, and building upon, the r= eputation of the series (in addition to, and interlinked with, the reputa= tion of each of its streams). > This is rather difficult to capture, but probably the most important (a= nd most difficult to attain/easy to damage) concept that needs to survive=20 the tsunami of process changes. >=20 > This is not a principle that was present in this form for RFC 1, but it=20 certainly has been relevant at least since the 1990s. > Rather obviously, it never has been written up while it became more and=20 more important over time, so we can=E2=80=99t just cite/interpret the fou= nding fathers. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > . >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 25 14:28:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D0A3A0AA9 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:28:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ir6viEDuLxS7 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B340E3A0AA4 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J0XZw3TBCz2xMt; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 23:28:24 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4e575764-63d0-83e3-a979-b6fa17994237@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 23:28:22 +0100 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <95766EC3-6E6F-4E69-AC84-3CE5E139F0FC@tzi.org> <4e575764-63d0-83e3-a979-b6fa17994237@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 22:28:31 -0000 On 25. Nov 2021, at 21:45, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Well yes, but that implies that we agree what the intended purposes = are > (plural intended). Isn't that for each stream to define for itself? Yes. I was trying to point out that these, at least for some of the streams, = rely on the common asset that is the RFC series and its reputation. While that observation is implicit to some of the process we have = invented (e.g., a stream being able to veto a change), it needs to be = made explicit. This should be a positive goal, informing actions of the RSCE and = others. 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Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: <1a658603-59b7-c2e0-0f12-ad380792116d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:56:48 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Eliot Lear Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Michael StJohns References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <5fe68a31-f2c1-bc39-a07d-b60360c8bbc8@nthpermutation.com> <7e6a5798-1c7c-4f53-73eb-845e9cb79a00@gmail.com> <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <24617DACB3F0FEBEBDB0C632@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYAPR03CA0007.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:14::19) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [133.2.210.39] (133.2.210.39) by TYAPR03CA0007.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:14::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4755.9 via Frontend Transport; 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Very much so. I have repeatedly argued for including some 'principles'. But even if we end not to include them, or actually all the more if we end up not to include them, it would be a really really bad idea to see writing such principles as the first job of the newly created RSWG. It would probably lead to endless discussions without any productive outcome, and would block other important work. (If you wonder why I still advocate that we write down some 'principles' now, the  difference is that we now can word the 'principles' based on history, whereas the RSWG won't do it for history.) Regards, Martin. > So, whether the foundation is Mike's proposal, something derived > from Joel's, an attempt to write down the oral tradition > accepted by more than two decades of editorial/operational > advisory groups, something built on Jay's "de facto > characteristics", or something else, I think it would be better > to tell the RSWG (in some vocabulary) "this is the accepted > wisdom, please try to make decisions within those guidelines, > and, if you conclude changes are needed to it, do that very > carefully and with the understanding that you are entering at > least partially uncharted territory with which the community has > little experience. > > john > From nobody Sat Nov 27 15:55:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A81D3A0F35 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:55:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VrbWklRtXLEA for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06DCA3A0F2F for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ARNt0fH090904 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 17:55:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638057302; bh=QTFULWrKGImcjd4o/vjIzfEd+Me0BCnbAdHcHG1yPJg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MGpJcpLRp07nJNYyQptzf2xEBgUaC3P+ZIBtCR1wfZXA0JSFA56QBO034Ql9BE79v b3UkOs5WHDakQ53WNcYSUV7JtBlCyG/Xw8o0VX2z/QwM7w15iLwFnb742rKFqi5sfa c/KI7+CBxUQL72/rvo0pLC/giTH8pyKMSS2MMEYo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , Peter Saint-Andre , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 17:54:54 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 23:55:13 -0000 On 11/22/2021 7:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 23-Nov-21 14:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >> >> If we do not agree on the principles, > > I haven't seen any concrete evidence of that. I've seen evidence > that we don't agree on burning a specific set of principles into > a document about the organization of the RFC Editor function. Just now catching up on this thread after having taken the week off... I think we now have concrete evidence of disagreement on the practical implications of one of the principles that has been proposed in a couple of different forms. Brian's proposal includes "strong community consensus including... the user community of each RFC stream," which he later reformulates as "broad discussion" rather than "strong community consensus." Joel's included a check on whether any changes "have received sufficient review and comment in the larger community affected by the RFC Series". This is an excellent sentiment, from the perspective of "principles we consider to be very good and important in a feel-good kind of way." Mark asks a question that astutely highlights the *practical* problem with including these statements in our current work: "As we've discussed ad nauseam, how does one gauge the consensus of the user community of a stream?" This question arises nearly every time there is a proposal to make a change to the series. The result is that people correctly observe that the "user community" for RFCs is unquantifiably large: it includes every engineer on the planet who implements or analyzes protocols for the Internet. Based on this observation, we then get reactions that are -- if we ascribe the most generous motives possible -- well-meaning attempts to watch out for these users' hypothesized interests, with the result being a complete paralysis of the conversation. Over two years ago, Brian himself made the keen observation: "How to reach out to this community is in itself a big question." [1] Given that we don't appear to be any closer to answering that question today than we were back then, adding text to our current document that even implicitly requires the RSWG to know that answer before making progress seems a non-starter. I can't see any tenable conclusion other than than: *if* we include language in our document that relies on knowing the answer to this question, *then* we must also include the answer itself. I do not relish rolling the work of developing that answer into this effort. /a ___ [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-carpenter-request-for-comments-01.html From nobody Sat Nov 27 20:12:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0260C3A08C0 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nz0S2VKU7MZY for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09A8A3A08BC for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J1w735dw4z6GYQC; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:12:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638072751; bh=7H3aZfMog7cUSC2TVH70XkRdWc1cI0MVj8/oXUr4pEE=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=O7W2g5FMV5caa0KtwKeV1f4uT1mrZgbUywAubrFmLoPLQ1k0iXBgibmTEU0QG6JCw runtSGGExq/3WZBCWO7QGveiJ8QUgbfBSfk8l1YVYv8C8etetkcG/k9ykchzmD7NbU HJzMOkyjfSub1kGGcZERBu5NX3DfLKg5fTjVozpM= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J1w7309hgz6G7Wc; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:12:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 23:12:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 04:12:37 -0000 If we simultaneously say that it is important that the RSWG / RSAB check with the larger community, and we have no idea how to tell them what that means, how can we say we have written a clear description of tehe process, or we know how it will work. It seems like a reasonable conclusion from the content of your message might well be "we need to figure this out" rather than "leave it to the RSWG". Yours, Joel On 11/27/2021 6:54 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/22/2021 7:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 23-Nov-21 14:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >>> >>> If we do not agree on the principles, >> >> I haven't seen any concrete evidence of that. I've seen evidence >> that we don't agree on burning a specific set of principles into >> a document about the organization of the RFC Editor function. > > > Just now catching up on this thread after having taken the week off... > > I think we now have concrete evidence of disagreement on the practical > implications of one of the principles that has been proposed in a couple > of different forms. Brian's proposal includes "strong community > consensus including... the user community of each RFC stream," which he > later reformulates as "broad discussion" rather than "strong community > consensus." Joel's included a check on whether any changes "have > received sufficient review and comment in the larger community affected > by the RFC Series". > > This is an excellent sentiment, from the perspective of "principles we > consider to be very good and important in a feel-good kind of way." > > Mark asks a question that astutely highlights the *practical* problem > with including these statements in our current work: "As we've discussed > ad nauseam, how does one gauge the consensus of the user community of a > stream?" > > This question arises nearly every time there is a proposal to make a > change to the series. The result is that people correctly observe that > the "user community" for RFCs is unquantifiably large: it includes every > engineer on the planet who implements or analyzes protocols for the > Internet. Based on this observation, we then get reactions that are -- > if we ascribe the most generous motives possible -- well-meaning > attempts to watch out for these users' hypothesized interests, with the > result being a complete paralysis of the conversation. > > Over two years ago, Brian himself made the keen observation: "How to > reach out to this community is in itself a big question." [1] Given that > we don't appear to be any closer to answering that question today than > we were back then, adding text to our current document that even > implicitly requires the RSWG to know that answer before making progress > seems a non-starter. I can't see any tenable conclusion other than than: > *if* we include language in our document that relies on knowing the > answer to this question, *then* we must also include the answer itself. > I do not relish rolling the work of developing that answer into this > effort. > > /a > > ___ > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-carpenter-request-for-comments-01.html > From nobody Sat Nov 27 20:33:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33613A08F3 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id un-0srL9zKdx for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 573403A08F2 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id r5so12169647pgi.6 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7gpqWeEIFFqDGPjp75IK9FuTyH+z1MgF1akIcCgdGCA=; b=G4WqACVKrpB5ZlvGMIhicQymyL7gcH6ylp3w26WRqV9tMGS1JP1c5TrcXH6/mYkI/F yJhlicBcmI8I0M5Vw8ZycyVJQzhygs8sZ7avpGfHcn0iKKGCiPZvY4cuqVgHpkEaNBib bkEEn19okE0+FLHDEXM0xT7d3+tv2xaXFWv3aILkQ0Xix4Wyi0GM1NwOhG0JH+hfyeLt 7MDOd7sBLw/1Zgl/UYUYGRzbrjxy1Lmbp7sQ1ivqCKAhZv5kJPMVeJEu8+mufc6mdBsC I5kV+pQVF52Fk2l7q0DbLsRXVD7A6AzrJK7mlQRf6AdGVCaLJYGSQlx5a3HRyw3LcEbj 6/3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7gpqWeEIFFqDGPjp75IK9FuTyH+z1MgF1akIcCgdGCA=; b=DwwitlivM7+T/Gq8It8eqILj+t4TPKAWCtpZQJjxt20DaKbIq5hLG9sEhSKyQJU4NV rpUbWT768dSQKR27qRCd1qoR6ADEcR8wk+plRcdCK812Dpd93FUADwm1CUm6gmLAK78o 2cxFVQ75+CRBSG9XPW3PWokFMVFLi0ysG7foa6euhs3sDZouf98FL2h2WEgMZMtebsuE 13dbCDsngoUwR8N1B0DwrX3qHFnuH/2ZaE0il42XAxlR3VAruhAMGKdzpf098gGEwnT/ 3hvT7sNxc55J+W7iu/9ELzVdVe5sOgxt43oRnIsRSpA1aNh3heM3pIMrizlLbhmSunUn DaRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TNfCWAuQlKu4u2n5tH4SqWBQxcG6zlEc8S0yyqCMnKO//HAvK WKQV6ytxTOqRjgMBwgwxZPzAe+S7LdSNgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcOgwlu43BMIQt2r03o20YKBO9aFkeJq07SHRq8wnPCteRsz1shW2byGYB1BY296EQKCpNsw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:448:: with SMTP id 69mr4515252pge.141.1638073993589; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q10sm15961770pjd.0.2021.11.27.20.33.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:33:13 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Adam Roach , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <70f0d351-78c1-21b4-7dff-95d1f25dd455@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:33:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 04:33:20 -0000 On 28-Nov-21 17:12, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > If we simultaneously say that it is important that the RSWG / RSAB check > with the larger community, > and we have no idea how to tell them what that means, > how can we say we have written a clear description of tehe process, or > we know how it will work. > > It seems like a reasonable conclusion from the content of your message > might well be "we need to figure this out" rather than "leave it to the > RSWG". The only reason that we could reach that point is because of a desire to embed principles in some form in our draft. If we stick to our knitting (i.e. don't do that), the problem does not arise. However, I don't agree. Telling the RSWG/RSAB, a collection of intelligent adults, to be assiduous in consulting the wider community does not seem underdefined to me. (I agree with my 2-years-younger self, of course, that it isn't trivial, but that's why we invented the RSWG in the first place.) Regards Brian Brian > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/27/2021 6:54 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 11/22/2021 7:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> On 23-Nov-21 14:38, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> I wonder if the time argument is misleading. >>>> >>>> If we do not agree on the principles, >>> >>> I haven't seen any concrete evidence of that. I've seen evidence >>> that we don't agree on burning a specific set of principles into >>> a document about the organization of the RFC Editor function. >> >> >> Just now catching up on this thread after having taken the week off... >> >> I think we now have concrete evidence of disagreement on the practical >> implications of one of the principles that has been proposed in a couple >> of different forms. Brian's proposal includes "strong community >> consensus including... the user community of each RFC stream," which he >> later reformulates as "broad discussion" rather than "strong community >> consensus." Joel's included a check on whether any changes "have >> received sufficient review and comment in the larger community affected >> by the RFC Series". >> >> This is an excellent sentiment, from the perspective of "principles we >> consider to be very good and important in a feel-good kind of way." >> >> Mark asks a question that astutely highlights the *practical* problem >> with including these statements in our current work: "As we've discussed >> ad nauseam, how does one gauge the consensus of the user community of a >> stream?" >> >> This question arises nearly every time there is a proposal to make a >> change to the series. The result is that people correctly observe that >> the "user community" for RFCs is unquantifiably large: it includes every >> engineer on the planet who implements or analyzes protocols for the >> Internet. Based on this observation, we then get reactions that are -- >> if we ascribe the most generous motives possible -- well-meaning >> attempts to watch out for these users' hypothesized interests, with the >> result being a complete paralysis of the conversation. >> >> Over two years ago, Brian himself made the keen observation: "How to >> reach out to this community is in itself a big question." [1] Given that >> we don't appear to be any closer to answering that question today than >> we were back then, adding text to our current document that even >> implicitly requires the RSWG to know that answer before making progress >> seems a non-starter. I can't see any tenable conclusion other than than: >> *if* we include language in our document that relies on knowing the >> answer to this question, *then* we must also include the answer itself. >> I do not relish rolling the work of developing that answer into this >> effort. >> >> /a >> >> ___ >> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-carpenter-request-for-comments-01.html >> > From nobody Sat Nov 27 20:42:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3789F3A08FF for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:42:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s65Hyb_mdlMI for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE1A83A08F3 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AS4fx9h039156 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:42:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638074521; bh=6k8j69Po8W14zr4Pm9AgnAUO1p3BYI9sNaTtvWNdtUY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Wpwr2khQoCSecdpx8tskJoIeFZ02tTcoiS3Fpfo7zgJkUuT2nAc4j6HTPrCBKRQOv kocLI3aiwIw1nv09g1qJHCAkeY10GnctfpdUNrtDzvxKNWRgPu76jNUIZRw2Iw/0qR jOkJnCu5eDNKnu8xxLN0jEc90Rw0M1qxoD5nd/kI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <122f5a00-228e-0896-7193-cdde7981c4ad@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:41:53 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 04:42:08 -0000 On 11/27/2021 10:12 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > If we simultaneously say that it is important that the RSWG / RSAB > check with the larger community, > and we have no idea how to tell them what that means, > how can we say we have written a clear description of tehe process, or > we know how it will work. > > It seems like a reasonable conclusion from the content of your message > might well be "we need to figure this out" rather than "leave it to > the RSWG". Yes, that's one of the logical conclusions you can draw. The other is to sidestep the issue altogether by not writing this principle into our document, and thereby avoiding the need to figure it out right here right now. Both make sense, but I fear one will take a very long time. /a From nobody Sat Nov 27 20:53:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A63E3A0957 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:53:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEdyZxyP012R for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EBF53A0953 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AS4rfr1041179 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:53:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638075223; bh=C8GNAblcAuFZFYtZnfaM9GHCXUxqO2wzek5fsRPnUYg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=mJ2HPRqzC7EplhgP8p8e4avlqWI8AJaWnoGzeoI824VoSsK5nnSfstvgw+srALMIR K3P0hiDCgNja25bNeTAbPNkGC7FRxzxImdgkD7PN3syc4v2sJIkW5xpqfDzdodNMNR WP0GOIdEjVD66B5AAJkoig4NUKK0oYNgDMkb1OFw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> <70f0d351-78c1-21b4-7dff-95d1f25dd455@gmail.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5246b4e7-d2c9-0fee-fb65-3ebd12d4f88d@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:53:35 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <70f0d351-78c1-21b4-7dff-95d1f25dd455@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 04:53:55 -0000 On 11/27/2021 10:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Telling the RSWG/RSAB, a collection of intelligent > adults, to be assiduous in consulting the wider community does not seem > underdefined to me. (I agree with my 2-years-younger self, of course, > that > it isn't trivial, but that's why we invented the RSWG in the first > place.) The top-level issue here is that by saying "X is an important principle" without defining what "X" means leads to the situation where this current group of people -- those of us participating in this rfced-future endeavor -- are signing up for something as a "meta law that [is] not generally subject to change within [the RSWG] process", but we don't know what that something is. Given the way the issue of community consultation has been treated in the past, I have severe trepidation moving forward with a principle that has historically meant, for some people who are nearly guaranteed to be part of the RSWG, that nothing substantial about the series can ever be changed because "the community" can never be adequately consulted. /a From nobody Sat Nov 27 22:14:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922B93A048D for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:13:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=GQDWaqtH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=K7oAZvqF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 61xQYaU8irPM for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751883A0485 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C6E32007CF; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 01:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 01:13:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=y UAaZKAFFpY7RkmgaGE78yC+w2WXNqCa4/FzgKXUwVs=; b=GQDWaqtHfVt57mkIJ 6J5gnO0f8VX808vMgJtwGbxxgLXpOVu+Mq+JnU5s15xoTF3uVXgvaFqq7YHpDDVu YLQG7QMNhrinHAFmfV0YYkDdrrUovKq4G9gSv+aKsYlahjqmywoeCnhjdVYKnolT WciJ3ZzKNtHLa/KCcXYrOOFtqGoaxFTLY9BR4Ve/iPk0/ptvMpcZbkeyiWQK77Jh E+WXbk5VDOAOtX6HuZyAl1w5HdcvT3TdxiBoif5L8Brb2lrHrU997GF2fYEqjNau XNTFRb+JfSuoxa/h+n/eFiuf2zWEH0jXZ9ycMhlDitWUZjNWXShDEqLQ94mO0xa5 HBuqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=yUAaZKAFFpY7RkmgaGE78yC+w2WXNqCa4/FzgKXUw Vs=; b=K7oAZvqFpaNCgJe0e2G2WwDM23DE2wa+p2CYXznMHUfT06d9UKvrRL9eA z6btrAmtGl8Uklh3nb/za7PUJhUbAqCEFbEa9HLNCAqv9tfzCzXh7q116puK7WjK cYenOtsszyqA1p01HcsD9ojqEIQ9DfO65RRDr0ca3ibUmxANfij/prLd/HrWGqLY zkI+PoXa1DMaD5aoj87IktaCTMxgWTb6xzIdq5OVOb5bVfr3J5PytQu2xGz8vxS2 Fic09gFH/hf3JS+xrzWlVDw7hUgiBvGf/AzvHi67cyY6/LqdPUBkzKxBa1hENJS2 HSpqVSorZaogJULuWc8ieuh1DtDdA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheehgdelhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtuedtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteet necuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurf grrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 01:13:46 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <70f0d351-78c1-21b4-7dff-95d1f25dd455@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:13:44 +1100 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Adam Roach , "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F5B2EF2-A78C-4C74-BFAC-328535046261@mnot.net> References: <52084a55-cae1-55be-4822-140f5f7bab97@lear.ch> <6e567705-ef81-a175-ee8f-0f2362daf527@lear.ch> <60eb854f-4baf-536a-9750-1fb37396bd7d@joelhalpern.com> <8f1c44c5-a2fb-3732-ed59-1cd9c2ba7e16@mozilla.com> <4fdb4fea-ca74-232b-78ec-ad55df239afd@joelhalpern.com> <18deea81-1488-6d95-0c6a-75fb7e4c03ad@nostrum.com> <3c085fb9-47d2-ac84-b25b-b99dc8ffe048@joelhalpern.com> <70f0d351-78c1-21b4-7dff-95d1f25dd455@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Poll: next steps X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 06:13:58 -0000 > On 28 Nov 2021, at 3:33 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > However, I don't agree. Telling the RSWG/RSAB, a collection of = intelligent > adults, to be assiduous in consulting the wider community does not = seem > underdefined to me. (I agree with my 2-years-younger self, of course, = that > it isn't trivial, but that's why we invented the RSWG in the first = place.) Yes. Again, I think the issue here is where the text can be read as a = requirement with an ill-defined measure for success. If the language is = creating an *expectation* of consultation, rather than a requirement, = and the RSAB is clearly nominated as being the appropriate body to judge = whether that expectation is met, I think we can thread this needle. And I agree that the result of our two years of deliberation is a body = and process that is designed for this purpose. It isn't perfect, and by = nature it can't operate in a vacuum, but it can, if properly seen = through, form the basis of that consultation.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sat Nov 27 23:40:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABEF3A0871 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 23:40:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6o7bu09JgvU for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 23:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4675C3A0893 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 23:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AS7dkXQ2643617 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:39:46 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1638085186; bh=ewA8HkYCg59E6RMy0xfGWDhhLpvnKcQIl+KnAqx4t+Y=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=X2SMVDyZn4MTm4BLWK16jGhQkODTtzadKoGGvEngGISH44TA/SVO85sTDBFvUMGkB G6jtRz10Gjp7p6Za0Xrp6cjrew7WthpMSQHBha0MYRJkU97yG2/0sY1dvouppnFwKr LlROtqbSIsomqhExACyLAwxkgyn7S20wOZWL7+Wk= Message-ID: <4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:39:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------IRs30AYQUmY0e04FWyyfReg0" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] agenda for Thursday's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:40:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------IRs30AYQUmY0e04FWyyfReg0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------pgOhGNInA7hjs8LwgZNNRikf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> Subject: agenda for Thursday's meeting --------------pgOhGNInA7hjs8LwgZNNRikf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------YpcRyJraYfjSlFa4r1y7OBYb" --------------YpcRyJraYfjSlFa4r1y7OBYb Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ovusfecjnNH1VSxBwtn4WSMf" --------------ovusfecjnNH1VSxBwtn4WSMf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RXZlcnlvbmU6DQoNCldlIGhhdmUgYSBvbmUgb3V0IHNsb3QgZm9yIGEgbWVldGluZyBvbiBU aHVyc2RheSBldmVuaW5nL0ZyaWRheSANCm1vcm5pbmcuwqAgQnJpYW4gYW5kIEkgd2lsbCB0 YWtlIGEgZmV3IG1pbnV0ZXMgdG8gcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLCANCmJ1dCB0aGVu IHRoZSBmbG9vciB3aWxsIGJlIG9wZW4gdG8gZGlzY3Vzc2lvbi7CoCBPdXIgZ29hbCBpcyB0 byBmaW5kIGEgDQp3YXkgZm9yd2FyZCB0aGF0IGNhbiBhY2hpZXZlIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1 cy4NCg0KU29tZSB0aGluZ3MgdG8gdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQ6DQoNCiAgKiBJcyBCcmlhbidzIHRl eHQgYSByZWFzb25hYmxlICpzdGFydGluZyogcG9pbnQgdG8gZGV2ZWxvcCBmdXJ0aGVyPw0K ICAqIElzIEpvZWwncyB0ZXh0IGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSAqc3RhcnRpbmcqIHBvaW50IHRvIGRl dmVsb3AgZnVydGhlcj8NCiAgKiBBcmUgdGhlcmUgcGFyYW1ldGVycyB3ZSBjYW4gYWdyZWUg dG8gaW5jbHVkZSBzb21lIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgdGV4dA0KICAgIGFyb3VuZCBwcmluY2lwbGVz IHBvbGljaWVzPw0KICAqIElzIHRoZXJlIGFub3RoZXIgc3RhcnRpbmcgcG9pbnQ/DQoNCkVs aW90DQoNCg== --------------ovusfecjnNH1VSxBwtn4WSMf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Everyone:

We have a one out slot for a meeting on Thursday evening/Friday morning.=C2=A0 Brian and I will take a few minutes to review the discussion, but then the floor will be open to discussion.=C2=A0 Ou= r goal is to find a way forward that can achieve rough consensus.

=

Some things to think about:

  • Is Brian's text a reasonable starting point to develop further?
  • Is Joel's text a reasonable starting point to develop further?
  • Are there parameters we can agree to include some additional text around principles policies?
  • Is there another starting point?

Eliot

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a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1638085929; bh=uPwhmH8Imc7lfwi1U5RLVD2xN7PySWCu7gA2lb++DfI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=tm51pnRUGo0EwnwSjx5ezc+3sEzZr+SPgc2/DzNyrYPwyUpBUzclouB9xvgInA4Ba HhQlL3pLGAYoJg7LTkeHTsE95aVFGWOcHVAOj5JQXgTH8YL1yqYJbJxswq1k76hyO1 8JwsgVoO8HJWF7OJtkfFzfeXokVyFJygCSCCwQWQ= Message-ID: <8abb37d9-b7f0-1c44-473f-3fca124d524a@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:52:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> <4ABC6DF7-0772-44D5-80A4-32E391523212@mnot.net> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <4ABC6DF7-0772-44D5-80A4-32E391523212@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------cnaKt0eFbie0HfsCOli4qa30" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] agenda for Thursday's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:52:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------cnaKt0eFbie0HfsCOli4qa30 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3ePiiUIVt00wEYzlY2Ai3FD1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <8abb37d9-b7f0-1c44-473f-3fca124d524a@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] agenda for Thursday's meeting References: <4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> <4ABC6DF7-0772-44D5-80A4-32E391523212@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4ABC6DF7-0772-44D5-80A4-32E391523212@mnot.net> --------------3ePiiUIVt00wEYzlY2Ai3FD1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------TZB4ZV9vhzmcQpUTISGJCP2x" --------------TZB4ZV9vhzmcQpUTISGJCP2x 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<4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:46:06 +1100 Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4ABC6DF7-0772-44D5-80A4-32E391523212@mnot.net> References: <4638ab11-ec0a-3842-cb70-7c9e2acc0360@lear.ch> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] agenda for Thursday's meeting X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:06:00 -0000 It would be extremely helpful if the most recent, refined versions of = each of these proposals was set out separately. Thanks, > On 28 Nov 2021, at 6:39 pm, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Everyone: >=20 > We have a one out slot for a meeting on Thursday evening/Friday = morning. Brian and I will take a few minutes to review the discussion, = but then the floor will be open to discussion. Our goal is to find a = way forward that can achieve rough consensus. >=20 > Some things to think about: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Is Brian's text a reasonable starting point to develop = further? > =E2=80=A2 Is Joel's text a reasonable starting point to develop = further? > =E2=80=A2 Are there parameters we can agree to include some = additional text around principles policies? > =E2=80=A2 Is there another starting point? > Eliot >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Nov 28 07:57:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBA83A05DF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVZ84ZmJzGLo for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CD4F3A05DE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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en-US To: John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:38:31 -0000 On 11/23/21 7:59 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > Peter, > > I hope this is a small editorial matter rather than something > that will stir up more controversy, but I have objected a couple > of times to the use of "Internet technical specifications" in > the opening sentence of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-06 (and > earlier) but have not been able to come up with a good > alternative. Fortunately one came up in a discussion of a > completely different topic this morning, describing something > unrelated to the RFC Series but, I think, still useful. > > I also think there is a problem with the "as well as standards > documents" phrasing and how it might be construed. I > consequently recommend changing: > > OLD: > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > series dedicated to documenting Internet technical > specifications, including general contributions from the > Internet research and engineering community as well as > standards documents. > > NEW: > The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival > series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution > and administration of Internet resources, including > standards documents, general contributions from the > Internet research and engineering community, and related > commentary. Hi John, thanks for the suggested text. With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one aspect of how the documents are handled. Also, series of what? Documents, clearly. Taking into account comments from Mark and Ekr, I suggest: NEWER: The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is a series of documents regarding the technical evolution and administration of the Internet, including standards documents, general contributions from the Internet research and engineering community, and related commentary. Changing "the" to "a" might be considered controversial, but I perceive a touch of hubris in asserting that no other documents address these matters. 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SIGNATURE----- --------------pHZ59pA9maFsr80bcdJbo4Lk-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:13:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CB03A085C for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:13:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hMYNPgCXItVQ for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B9EC3A0858 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mrOgL-000KxZ-CB; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:13:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:13:38 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Stephen Farrell , Peter Saint-Andre cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:13:55 -0000 --On Sunday, November 28, 2021 17:43 +0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the >> original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that >> the adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition >> of the Series as opposed one=20 >> = aspect=C2=A0of=C2=A0how=C2=A0the=C2=A0documents=C2=A0are=C2=A0han= dled. >=20 > FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for > me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully > will continue to be, relevant. >=20 > So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" Agreed. While we may not have a precise definition of "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, it has a range of important implications, ones that become even more important if the document is not to state [other] principles. I note that the traditional interpretation of "archival" in the RFC Series includes documents, once published under a given number, being static. An overlapping part of that traditional interpretation is the reason why STD and BCP (and the ill-fated NEWTRK ISDs) are overlay systems and not those primary document numbers. And that, in turn, made the decision to switch from normative ASCII to normative XML a major strategic decision (one on whose wisdom I fear the jury is still out) rather than a minor policy change and would make, e.g., renumbering RFC 5322 to RFC 822.3 or 822:2008 a similarly important strategy decision. It is also part of why we have RFC 7414 rather than having delayed all changes to TCP (including what became RFCs 1122, 3168, 6093, and 6528) until we were ready to publish a comprehensive and integrated RFC793bis. One can argue against any of those decisions and their consequences (I note a recent passionate posting that would imply just that integrated 793bis strategy), but they would be much more significant decisions than, e.g., an adjustment to the Style Guide or extending xml2rfc v3 to include a new element or argument. john From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:14:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FBA3A0858 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:14:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:13:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:13:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:14:06 -0000 On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original >> but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does >> much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one >> aspect of how the documents are handled. > > FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for > me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully > will continue to be, relevant. > > So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an archive or handled in archival ways; see especially §4.3 of RFC 4844 (some or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Program document we're working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival series" really accomplishes. Peter From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:17:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0509E3A0860 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:17:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=khb/T9I5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GweJGH/c Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01XY-k_yLzYG for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5823A07D0 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C275C0081; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:16:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=U TIPPciyn60cJUTxINeQ8Mk98vEAhqpuG08Pnx4ji3Y=; b=khb/T9I5+0ne6L3nJ HQSpq2ahQxA37yAABwW5ce60r4CMc6z2FJl1A5OrKGR1nsd/6YnbEgwzeByiswl5 OK8z2Zl0CwxOBVJHun5/0M8/j1hRVhoP8+wXTzU44Zj9H8Ek9X2raBVNGPi2mi39 9Th1A4prjjlCzD2qk2AJBVF2m5d/wHccyYP0HoD8MGk8cb6f9jdMie1kzn2BuKIC f18vJvpfbPSwh6PxXlCU7f7x7AaHWnn1jFhO8wTGoz2wNUrA2oq96GcoPt5nkidI uMQQ+QzTcKkQJ9w78G66zyHR8jMMDV0okm7p98jiIu/KWOn9n+kw67zYFwSX3TP/ c+iVg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=UTIPPciyn60cJUTxINeQ8Mk98vEAhqpuG08Pnx4ji 3Y=; b=GweJGH/cGrpV0jL24+95WoJWFc4MKep2pzk2kq2WIIaow32pw/HePESDR SPtqxedQZiNWbKlRywmvcxfuxIDaeoozaeXkdACeXMDcHewbpOZMZK/xQrMmE7Zg kFsmUS3r8Ippg8xLIBicGWKA8mUb0HrQeLVdDS5kE3reUc7mRcrEFlFL4VCR5X4K gH4w22BYD3rGuhGxi+tRTc6rsf8yDkpzsRdRGl0xMj4yFHQKoTPEJOV+k3LCPlKP FgKWIwKtzv294myOH33ZK0dtztFXJlQA6EqnK7c0K3FairnBmqEk6v2Tit6fsXwQ kbJoa8VnBFJOJsnVqtK7KnzsHWOQg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheeigdduuddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:16:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:16:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin , Stephen Farrell Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:17:02 -0000 On 11/28/21 11:13 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Sunday, November 28, 2021 17:43 +0000 Stephen Farrell > wrote: > >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the >>> original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that >>> the adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition >>> of the Series as opposed one >>> aspect of how the documents are handled. >> >> FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for >> me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully >> will continue to be, relevant. >> >> So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" > > Agreed. While we may not have a precise definition of > "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, it has a > range of important implications, ones that become even more > important if the document is not to state [other] principles. My point is that merely asserting it's an "archival series" isn't all that valuable on its own: what matters is specifying those implications somewhere, not pinning all of one's hopes on the adjective "archival". Peter From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:28:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540373A0890 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:28:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=pYNuPXZ1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SjEWVQy0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZrZ-xXpJIrwW for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7053A3A0886 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D645C00D2; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:27:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:cc:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=/ kqHOaBsXzQvgha6u58IAzyiwm/KwdbQ5fpPcyV0JfM=; b=pYNuPXZ1m1id3QY6h Sh+wpH+/kp/ui3MjBdsNOlMeM7UFJvU4IymD0bToPeAzJdVjuGdZYC90sxBlt+wt e96dd26RxVm4Fo2DHrvWlpI0XzhLP69a007I8Iu62mTu9a+AL9eUA3GJvaUDCaeu UWwKv/cCaUGXxjrPxbB+S51vjFtyW7z0GwORnU07y/w2gOyTxOjo//Fhc4tq2K43 XcItB9yhNNlXXVW5cAZ75CP0HgIUBeWSl3zKzBCpiuV/gCe1p394meszSdIu+5fM srs7DztT0qx9cWdkkyzmqZ1pC2xc2XnVeiyA9qqu6CmcUWER33+AA7xp0/h5h1Rq RRAbQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=/kqHOaBsXzQvgha6u58IAzyiwm/KwdbQ5fpPcyV0J fM=; b=SjEWVQy0terXde+W1Khb36rvf+d4kabh5hyv2xDHHRYVR04/Snuhlz3a4 cljx0s+Z0zJX0t9mVXsbbEf0NtKAPbTv51FqDnw1gJNfY8O6+1MPPyIEArRM81Lo pSTnUh0q1Xw71hmPYylxgq9hB04vXCIS/N9yQSu3H9Hr+2mNWQVnJHZ5nr7/HzOg DBUcOYvAvz6+534uKUjAwbmWv/gbKizgc2Jz5PBy0o4aeBP4v8jM3wncojEzN83U Nxz+PwUna/EmwYmaODLpvZ3hlLz0v8FsOBZA1g3UaxE4ujeBoRqmehIwbMuitA5h EZkcEg6TVn6zS2EBMtA9U+vrr6HWA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheeigdduudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfvfhfhffujggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfelkeevveelgfehjeeuhfehuefhkeeftdffgfeghfegtedv geeigfdvkeeltdfgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:27:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:27:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , Mark Nottingham Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <9e15fb8e-c279-4c52-1514-5fa43187ddab@cs.tcd.ie> <8A3D587D-8439-4061-B3C7-F22AEC236882@mnot.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:28:02 -0000 On 11/24/21 6:38 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 25/11/2021 01:17, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> If people want to say 'handle these things with care, please' without >> imposing such barriers, > > FWIW, I don't think what I proposed is at all a "barrier" > more along the lines of guidance to be taken seriously. > >> that's not as much of an issue to me. That >> said, I don't really see the point, as presumably those people would >> be able to represent their views in the RSWG and assure that proper >> care were taken. > > For me, that's why the heritage thing becomes a topic - if > one considers that the set of active participants changes a > lot over the longer periods of time for which the series has > already demonstrated relevance, I do think we'd be better off > with longer term guidance when it comes to the future of the > series. This is interesting. Fast forward 20 years: there's a mostly different set of active participants who perceive different needs for the Series based on changes that we can't currently foresee. Why would we now, who don't know what those future needs might be, limit the range of solutions that those folks might consider? I reiterate that we're establishing a process here... Peter From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:31:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF8D3A089E for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:31:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=e4dSkIUP; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GUeDMB02 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-lAh9_C-XvD for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFE433A089D for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6733200A39; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:31:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=T pTI0geUF6X1jBiKyWhBGbFCmMjYCBpfmu/a7Db9ovw=; b=e4dSkIUPF1Rz+gXGV tJswxpu+bhjJ7jZYuBhBLCOXrkO7PG2PxLVhqfg66YK15I0SFtV/7/BpUIIMpxOg EupEdxNFDvE4NqVc5H/QkcMAU2bSS/I8EiD/7jlGXTs8fQd3OuXeiSB+qyFw4Vfc D5+gZOR+kAe3KvOteuGX02AQ4wTA+Q5yDsrYFjcqLznxAChnmTR3CRUzaMI2i7Bc QjnGzf8Q9K+wRxRK6/5CYtFVJft1LukgdwDm0BIIImcUWnPEj/ZkcwhnzZD53YsF ObdMGJ9vxTtcM1ZAkvBCVuSG8pVqO0QoMBoxMIReEY8pUZi/G6XbEqoug9U97FNg 0Wz+A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=TpTI0geUF6X1jBiKyWhBGbFCmMjYCBpfmu/a7Db9o vw=; b=GUeDMB02A83OBUBwHVx0x9ewZcOMZpNG1/qHy0sGAwWxBQkcoSrwB0jsR s+3BqG2qBM7KqBSM8pkgVpTZzHV6Kia4WATdiPn6yeZ0fUinLSjH2s+7mBUz8FHb 157kcpna/PrtfcskeqSSo1mhiM/kYw8PmqBCRvV8LHE0jILeIaUYH/aPLfEcM6kx IqEfknqfIH7m1gGB8TYCoAq7wGzLDAXxDDlNk2ZbbEq690OtF2ydX90GJdDWDZ9m HbVveglGd007cMvDHGS1e6pykoJyoCcNAvxF1b/J6CBcnAkNvEuvUvBicWtjEbyA gJvzLR8z+HfGffDgiyD0dQtlLkYtA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheeigdduudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:31:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2d2c8562-d5a2-331e-2661-8814a84f92a4@stpeter.im> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:31:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Mark Nottingham , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <15999ff1-df92-0dda-6332-ac93c0b3f0c8@joelhalpern.com> <75b640ca-3f80-b946-dcb9-e1cec442d8dc@joelhalpern.com> <8b617949-b4f7-17eb-09c4-966891bf9a8f@gmail.com> <29297234-D725-4CC4-99FA-9D982AFA98B7@mnot.net> <3ACD5320-8A73-4623-86CD-EA75BBAD9F8B@kuehlewind.net> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <3ACD5320-8A73-4623-86CD-EA75BBAD9F8B@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:31:23 -0000 On 11/25/21 4:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Below. > >> On 25. Nov 2021, at 03:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 25 Nov 2021, at 1:25 pm, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>> Proposals to modify any of these properties should not be taken forward without a broad discussion including not only active RSWG/RSAB members but also the user community of each RFC stream. >> >> This is getting there. How 'broad discussion.. in the user community' is measured may become an issue. > > My assumption was that it is actually part of the role of the RSAB to figure which document needs broad outreach and send out calls respectively and which things might be rather smaller detailed changes that might be less relevant for the specific community the RSAB member is representing. > > I agree to the comments below that we might want to rather add something in the "Community Calls for Comment” section about different levels of outreach potentially needed if that is not explicitly covered yet. I *think* we have this covered in that section, but with my editor hat on I'm happy to add clarifying text. Peter From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:33:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121633A08A0 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:32:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=jGKhmhls; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Wc6avusA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4L-aA7mefls4 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 460A13A089F for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663103200A64; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:32:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=m 3STAidOmg6garGY3/fjBaFhmjBySGTMt/jkLMiaFXQ=; b=jGKhmhlsrgxsed8SX 1fmD2PFgVTjf0wuPnHENcmk/Z5wU5qJsNn2i+eWPibQs5//e7eI4XVks7UqiD/qb 5NRWW2p9kFYNb8o48TOjenfEBFVWjcz0L889xyNzN7KGrpuAA+KtD1vmK574b/Rn kG/vQT/K/eSBOzBxYAF0t3QPFxquGE2TkLJhvJqugdIPOSGdern84BYE/ijjBicN RHCEQCJiCyGHqye8ASRBF+7yN+ovf/AdEq0zg/4UrmeMs9XDTaN7rubIWp+IOxuT OMHKYN/a2ftT38Yz3UPrTjs6Au38PGm3j5GJ0StDKSUSc6repSS0iNzk6v9YyQjF xbQkw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=m3STAidOmg6garGY3/fjBaFhmjBySGTMt/jkLMiaF XQ=; b=Wc6avusA8GqXtKji3Uc+gjibBb8GNpj0g5BO/7A5zTqizto08SGIBP7c/ 6yixVS+q8atUxq13IyGGzq66OTd0Ipja4wm933wphpMjKs6Z2S/Qpz/yiOujN9I+ OyehJ1WaE0Ax0GyQj+Pmh8NHHhX7nFD1/unmI3TX+klWU3xaJAZfVYddSNayY56E Y7ixVM5kv5OdYHTPpXs+D/eCQcNo6/+5tSMT8WasqBh3aTKcD9XYGGtbaqyUUx+D JJYNESgUrjFuFCEqnWV4Gb+9W3G2qIS99VcjbLboeV7oq59yjZJ5qTrjDT2seitF s3AY533RKGa1XGSoyHk7q88assxqw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheeigdduudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:32:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:32:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann , Brian E Carpenter Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <95766EC3-6E6F-4E69-AC84-3CE5E139F0FC@tzi.org> <4e575764-63d0-83e3-a979-b6fa17994237@gmail.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Historical Properties X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:32:58 -0000 On 11/25/21 3:28 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 25. Nov 2021, at 21:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> Well yes, but that implies that we agree what the intended purposes are >> (plural intended). Isn't that for each stream to define for itself? > > Yes. > > I was trying to point out that these, at least for some of the streams, rely on the common asset that is the RFC series and its reputation. > While that observation is implicit to some of the process we have invented (e.g., a stream being able to veto a change), it needs to be made explicit. > This should be a positive goal, informing actions of the RSCE and others. Again, I'm happy to add text along these lines, or to receive proposed text on list. Peter From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:34:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBC23A089F for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:34:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSeX2kpfpcHw for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4382A3A089E for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id d2so20349907qki.12 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:34:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:content-language:to:from :subject:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rXN8Pd2ewrkkmYg4qhPRwT6YXkxX/qJKM9bR0p53uuo=; b=Zois13BMknIpdBzyYOPgGI66PAB8b3QSUEUzW/07Z50TdjJPDITCAlsmUwqAI6LA3g AohO6AizDF/3ihPOlOK5MgwvHc61OSrdju5GCZ+FiCyPD4Nw413Qtux7jUB0131nsGqs UxcAnIQPmyFgA76YwV8OTb5UGLRCkat5XuD8SDD5Emni9GSEi6E8tnxjGtHqSaQZC9KI ppfvSlMBCp/6T2DutIHGbhpHinPc79HQRDHXe9haE8O9PBDIkWdB8uvHNj8x/mw8SZSg d+V3fAsGZIi0Kix0Ob1k08QHo8vM7Lu0UtLp4Y5Uy/k+lnboDxhX6+H+9iqFQRL1AI9B edzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :content-language:to:from:subject:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rXN8Pd2ewrkkmYg4qhPRwT6YXkxX/qJKM9bR0p53uuo=; b=ZG27NFnoqTCJtKMx+fXUHa2yJRtGEfiGA63iGfhgueE/gjotStup4d+L3f6FifLtCT eRIpX/UIyb9N5UTX/2c19pE5vR+h323kxe/Xbb4Uyep86+FgL7qr7+KdepQXXEQe0z5U WItq2Oro7QcSZmYXmwXgoRHwKLIiIflGZFBKaS7MrDoiAiSkIMB3QOjenRaNUGzwBTB2 lV6Ir/IGKTMTXA8Z8BaZSXO7ObkUuDYxBOIlVGmGP0ABdUIE6/sVxEc8+PNa9u/fis2H hkdf9axkksrW11Bzc7q28UMB3sD+Hwm/2RccmWH6+AY0l/QuSS2Oa8Qo09dAuEyBLFG1 MKFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531A0yYQzCnBzL93nxY9XariMZBnEggzJWRECzwxufsSPfKWYifn 38+/Z9BFc7Duwxj4R4M73FmnZVV/gQ2OBCzD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxxPR+OPyiFieoYPW71CyNmeDNOLxAjybJat0sydkvHSKblaIwBQN62tfnh9LqkghEGsSU5dQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:16b9:: with SMTP id s25mr33587713qkj.409.1638124440358; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y16sm6600774qki.41.2021.11.28.10.33.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:33:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8c64870c-8401-4d00-bc38-a4c43808d5f1@nthpermutation.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:33:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Michael StJohns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] On Communities X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:34:08 -0000 Hi - We keep going down the community rathole and I'm starting to think its on purpose.  So I wrote a hierarchy of community describes our community(s) of interest, and how we might interact with them with respect to the changes in governance of the RFC Series system.    THIS is what I mean by broad community support.   It's at least the opportunity to know something is happening and getting non-parochial comments saying that what we're doing makes sense even to them. WRT to the Internet: People in the world are a superset of    People affected by the Internet are a superset of        People who use the Internet are a superset of            People who operate the Internet are a superset of                People who build the Internet are a superset of                    People who design the Internet are a superset of                        People who design the part of the Internet the IETF cares about* are a superset of                            People who design the part of the Internet an IETF WG cares about* are a superset of                                 People who work on the design of a particular protocol an IETF WG* works on. * Neither of these should be taken to imply these folk all actually work with the IETF.    We write documents that reach up at least to the "operate" level, and sometime even to the "use" (User services area) and affected by (GAIA and HRPC for examples) levels. There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Internet community is large when measured by "affected by".   That said, the question is NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we can and should reach out to during our processes.   The answer is: As broadly as we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of 1000s of responses. The concept of public notice and comment is long held, even within the IETF.  However, we tend to limit our notice and comment outreach to folk that have already bought into the IETF in some fashion -usually subscribing to a mailing list.  So a firm proposal. 1) We reach out to ICANN, ISOC and W3C (maybe others) and ask them to nominate a mailing list to which we can post our "Notice and Request for Public Comments" in addition to IETF/IAB centric mailing lists.   We go as broad as we can targeting communities that have at least heard of RFCs. 2) We create an email alias for the submission of said comments which does not require subscription. 3) We provide a repository for all received comments similar to https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment 4) We provide pointers to the RSWG and RSAB mailing lists, and we discuss the comments on those lists.  We invite commenters to subscribe.  We place resolutions on the public comment page. 5) We provide a shepherd's document that describes at the 100 foot level the changes in the RFC governance as part of the Notice and Comment process. 6) We make sure we inform the leadership of the various organizations that depend on RFCs of the existence of the Notice and Comment as they may want to take organization notice of our changes. Proposed text for a public notice and comment email for this document: The RFC Series has been the record publication of the Internet and Network programs and the Internet Architecture Board/Internet Activities Board since the beginning of the ARPANet experiments circa 1969.  Around 1987 it became the record publication of the Internet Engineering Task Force and the place where IETF standards were published.  Over the years the governance of the series has moved from individuals (Steve Crocker and Jon Postel under contract to the USG) to organizations (USC/ISI under contract first to the USG and then to ISOC), to the ISOC as contract agent for the IAB and finally to the IETF LLC as the contract agent for the IAB. The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) has created a program (RFC Editor Futures) to consider changes to the governance of the RFC Series from an organizationally driven process to a volunteer-driven process similar to the model the IETF uses for standards creation.  The IAB would cede its current responsibilities to another organizational structure.  While this notice covers only the change in governance, if approved we expect further changes to the RFC Series system that may result in visible changes in how the RFC Series is used, or in the communities served by the RFC series. The initial output of the RFCED Futures program is a document located at: <> and if approved will be the template for the governance changes. The shepherd's document describing how the RFC Series system would change from the current model described in <> if this document is approved is at: <> Comments may be sent to: <> Comments will appear at <> and will be discussed on the RFCED Futures program mailing list at <>.  Resolutions of the comments will be posted back to the comments page.  You may subscribe for notification of comments and responses at <>. You may subscribed to participate in the discussion on the RFCED Futures mailing list at <>. The comment period will close at .   Responses to the comments will be considered within 90 days after closure and posted to the comments page and an updated draft may be produced.   If necessary, the IAB will cause a additional rounds of notice and comment to occur. Mike From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:46:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1171F3A08B3 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:45:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3g_nXBsf39hL for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF5FB3A08AE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ASIjmkV016621 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:45:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638125150; bh=TDHE+MuEwPKFGrFxRwuSxSWbMFUxJulgl4/3kunlWa8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vQEZI52Azc8jYQp2jO43Jb2/imImAIJoyPHP5Ow/tkaXS2Z9VnpkgasHmYFoRaWvM PvSDU/AUIOPbIJ39luCAKyMDF3mjk6riKovX8xc1IjzAYBO+MpMiX2q5zgPSe1HEiy XMRW2zHGMwhr2EWSSZy1msc+9so4uNr9YBRjjHEg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8c64870c-8401-4d00-bc38-a4c43808d5f1@nthpermutation.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <8c0a4383-5378-b0e4-a297-48219c095588@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:45:43 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8c64870c-8401-4d00-bc38-a4c43808d5f1@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] On Communities X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:45:58 -0000 I think this is a great basis for discussion of how to make community consultation tenable (I have nits, but specifically like the fact that this proposed process is concrete, well-defined, and time-bound under normal circumstances). I presume it has been posted at least partially in response to the recent exchanges I've had with Brian and Joel. However: if we engage on this kind of proposal right now, we're jumping clean over the question of whether defining this process (and making it an RSWG prerequisite for series changes) is an rfced-future activity or an RSWG activity. As both a practical matter and a matter of principle, I think it's the latter. /a On 11/28/2021 12:33 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > Hi - We keep going down the community rathole and I'm starting to > think its on purpose.  So I wrote a hierarchy of community describes > our community(s) of interest, and how we might interact with them with > respect to the changes in governance of the RFC Series system.    THIS > is what I mean by broad community support.   It's at least the > opportunity to know something is happening and getting non-parochial > comments saying that what we're doing makes sense even to them. > > > WRT to the Internet: > > People in the world are a superset of >    People affected by the Internet are a superset of >        People who use the Internet are a superset of >            People who operate the Internet are a superset of >                People who build the Internet are a superset of >                    People who design the Internet are a superset of >                        People who design the part of the Internet the > IETF cares about* are a superset of >                            People who design the part of the Internet > an IETF WG cares about* are a superset of >                                 People who work on the design of a > particular protocol an IETF WG* works on. > > * Neither of these should be taken to imply these folk all actually > work with the IETF.    We write documents that reach up at least to > the "operate" level, and sometime even to the "use" (User services > area) and affected by (GAIA and HRPC for examples) levels. > > > There's a hierarchy of folk in the community, and the Internet > community is large when measured by "affected by".   That said, the > question is NOT "What is the community?", but rather how much of it we > can and should reach out to during our processes.   The answer is: As > broadly as we can, but not assuming that we're going to get 100s of > 1000s of responses. > > The concept of public notice and comment is long held, even within the > IETF.  However, we tend to limit our notice and comment outreach to > folk that have already bought into the IETF in some fashion -usually > subscribing to a mailing list.  So a firm proposal. > > 1) We reach out to ICANN, ISOC and W3C (maybe others) and ask them to > nominate a mailing list to which we can post our "Notice and Request > for Public Comments" in addition to IETF/IAB centric mailing lists.   > We go as broad as we can targeting communities that have at least > heard of RFCs. > > 2) We create an email alias for the submission of said comments which > does not require subscription. > > 3) We provide a repository for all received comments similar to > https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment > > 4) We provide pointers to the RSWG and RSAB mailing lists, and we > discuss the comments on those lists.  We invite commenters to > subscribe.  We place resolutions on the public comment page. > > 5) We provide a shepherd's document that describes at the 100 foot > level the changes in the RFC governance as part of the Notice and > Comment process. > > 6) We make sure we inform the leadership of the various organizations > that depend on RFCs of the existence of the Notice and Comment as they > may want to take organization notice of our changes. > > Proposed text for a public notice and comment email for this document: > > The RFC Series has been the record publication of the Internet and > Network programs and the Internet Architecture Board/Internet > Activities Board since the beginning of the ARPANet experiments circa > 1969.  Around 1987 it became the record publication of the Internet > Engineering Task Force and the place where IETF standards were > published.  Over the years the governance of the series has moved from > individuals (Steve Crocker and Jon Postel under contract to the USG) > to organizations (USC/ISI under contract first to the USG and then to > ISOC), to the ISOC as contract agent for the IAB and finally to the > IETF LLC as the contract agent for the IAB. > > The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) has created a program (RFC > Editor Futures) to consider changes to the governance of the RFC > Series from an organizationally driven process to a volunteer-driven > process similar to the model the IETF uses for standards creation.  > The IAB would cede its current responsibilities to another > organizational structure.  While this notice covers only the change in > governance, if approved we expect further changes to the RFC Series > system that may result in visible changes in how the RFC Series is > used, or in the communities served by the RFC series. > > The initial output of the RFCED Futures program is a document located > at: <> and if approved will be the template for the governance changes. > > The shepherd's document describing how the RFC Series system would > change from the current model described in <> if this document is > approved is at: <> > > Comments may be sent to: <> > > Comments will appear at <> and will be discussed on the RFCED Futures > program mailing list at <>.  Resolutions of the comments will be > posted back to the comments page.  You may subscribe for notification > of comments and responses at <>. You may subscribed to participate in > the discussion on the RFCED Futures mailing list at <>. > > The comment period will close at .   Responses to the > comments will be considered within 90 days after closure and posted to > the comments page and an updated draft may be produced.   If > necessary, the IAB will cause a additional rounds of notice and > comment to occur. > > > Mike > > > From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:46:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A41B3A08B3 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZPzuayEb7OF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9927B3A08AE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id g9so10353237qvd.2 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=lP6zOfqopKTU/xySuEQ6H7R04VoeC1NlA87zmmNZOB8=; b=cbJTcklv7xovonKT0KyHvNWr9R8TqDuiqmQG1lpnj2T6IheXGXZg8YT7e2Mh7tuFR/ GR4rWlql51T1RVMNyhjMF2+udNFZAgHA59GsdZ/7RnewYVE/WctqCRLzAkV242xEtw1Q Ug924ti6QYmgkWrY1sYdFfmU/UJwdlEo+pf++kxqbN8ZWwrMXtVPz3WBrQQ41gOU35/Z BLSLYBlWFljllOa66hxit3osF77r40RC/1dlsgR0Aq0Hw2daUZ8+izx7OXiYPjLNJzly JGAGfMoGy/pXplDL9ihUcQjd/w9nH+4uPFc7g4uA+RqyIJH7ofHw57eq+2W/LCWwTOHJ fKow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=lP6zOfqopKTU/xySuEQ6H7R04VoeC1NlA87zmmNZOB8=; b=mtQXayB32sdDbEG0WG1DJkFajFxuQvKcQ5mFFBnKkmnmtg1JAfQK/I20K/LkpreZQS WT8G/f5+ABh0/hP2Tf0rv+Ia0jel92+8oEB7vqjoIY/ilg1TWlpfK4BRpZXM9Ev0nPm2 FSYfVkzWqo4//HXnR70XhwvLJJ+gZcAdRs0bzf/0mxZ/MTr2oZYSM2F4O5+G83A0KARy tvnc1skrCA+WB1Ka99yuQrN+8tjaPo3VATglo5F6FxBzMUZLmU06lY5KrmsP4pZBjFfr wZB6DIv3yxjbEVi8O/c7zSb81By+HzO+hKVpauww2j5y80Sb1TzQ65Y0F7AIpgvp4LUw Z9YQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530vBIGYb/btmHwChDmRn690D83ndJENC/OX8gww1KuYNABUPVDg 74WcxgyR2pGlHbwQ+ephwzSSGrds6hAfg9HS X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtqgtu7j8bQgaPdrLuJ+BdXxEqv5WfYzR3ez5CJpBFHj04VM+HZXsqM/+0eC16bxjubN+81w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:20ab:: with SMTP id 11mr38422404qvd.31.1638125185064; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y21sm7482417qtw.10.2021.11.28.10.46.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0H40S1mEYiMQ0UmAz0yCgTlz" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:46:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:46:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0H40S1mEYiMQ0UmAz0yCgTlz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/28/2021 1:13 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the >>> original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the >>> adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series >>> as opposed one aspect of how the documents are handled. >> >> FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for >> me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully >> will continue to be, relevant. >> >> So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" > > It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an > archive or handled in archival ways; see especially §4.3 of RFC 4844 > (some or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Program document > we're working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival > series" really accomplishes. > > Peter > Archival is the opposite of "ephemeral".   Long lasting, well known location, well known taxonomy, suitable to be used in archives, .    Contrast with ephemeral:  lasting a short time, transient, fleeting, changing, momentary. Or better yet: https://dictionary.archivists.org/entry/archival-nature.html archival nature n.The characteristics that are inherent in archival documents resulting from the circumstances of their creation, including naturalness, organic nature or interrelationship, impartiality, authenticity, and uniqueness. https://dictionary.archivists.org/index.html Mike --------------0H40S1mEYiMQ0UmAz0yCgTlz Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/28/2021 1:13 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

Hiya,

On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one aspect of how the documents are handled.

FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for
me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully
will continue to be, relevant.

So I'd be against a change to "NEWER"

It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an archive or handled in archival ways; see especially §4.3 of RFC 4844 (some or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Program document we're working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival series" really accomplishes.

Peter

Archival is the opposite of "ephemeral".   Long lasting, well known location, well known taxonomy, suitable to be used in archives, .    Contrast with ephemeral:  lasting a short time, transient, fleeting, changing, momentary.

Or better yet: https://dictionary.archivists.org/entry/archival-nature.html

archival nature

n.The characteristics that are inherent in archival documents resulting from the circumstances of their creation, including naturalness, organic nature or interrelationship, impartiality, authenticity, and uniqueness.

https://dictionary.archivists.org/index.html


Mike


--------------0H40S1mEYiMQ0UmAz0yCgTlz-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:52:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504E93A08B8 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gh-e5oBKgz7W for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F223A08BD for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id t11so14183871qtw.3 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R+OALM4AcMafCxq5PwGJ04GxlJMicKNlIJca+jC/TUQ=; b=p0r/0kXphx8ow6eqWeZCUqyTo2K8y9ZTc1sITncXHrods6jgEgyVfD2AHCqwPjb/F+ KBLSK3+qku1zqfFd5W5dlwvQMmLd3Hce4lXt0UNVQuLb06vHVkGTHWdV55KoAs2WP9yt cxOsWZWuxtm5cxCJc0I3CpBuq4ut3N1etxf7RkM5w9jyM1/vGcgWLdKHlsW1kV734s3F fb0b1y7nq55TwLWoWVYVYMtu4X00+MDz0EpUHQRNshW61ox4idLPXOQe9zq31KxGtemM yNBfDvONee7aaM4x1KqJyk6nOAQn1TPxR67mAYaPiT/hu+Dwup9ivlV5r7TeSYOQ3Ure MQtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R+OALM4AcMafCxq5PwGJ04GxlJMicKNlIJca+jC/TUQ=; b=qfJ92TTsMP6LCceA79d/SOet4zKcAnMHDtSIfCFUk7IDkoEHsYmkHNQWjXDlFlzpma 9r8gXA24kot64+WIsALjcEHb2vPNMiSceZb78zM/427jaA2HXZY7Hjiq9412MlDG/OMI mnrbiExFszjRU+kEmHbY13wckK/E0ZEf85DD+YFDalksJu5Di1ao77mug+VqrHYJSw20 P4O0/ktsBuZltlwzHgGc+oqbL1IJoj0FqEcB2u8XWvgBktuUtKaLYgzVVB6wG3BNUzOX IzEJfwVcEQOAL9Wy9CcHjZwoq2e8ZqJJAvQKgluLdGgsBkdhO6NcIEHrORRX3Yr4bW3l TQnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316ZWjWNRwIWqOzsjZx7wMtw4MR7iZKcIALLKyQdo+WPAsEd42w 7fNSChwXE+Z4Yh1qHgmsMkbwdqhCr2w8h/dA X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqpeWH1z04yI7XtSgGzRQGix+JeV2hdm3K32Cf2ciah6ZmHlK5v/kCsHY9C+c6LRnC64fD+A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:138a:: with SMTP id o10mr37530582qtk.237.1638125540214; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id de40sm6736697qkb.99.2021.11.28.10.52.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:52:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:52:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8c64870c-8401-4d00-bc38-a4c43808d5f1@nthpermutation.com> <8c0a4383-5378-b0e4-a297-48219c095588@nostrum.com> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <8c0a4383-5378-b0e4-a297-48219c095588@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] On Communities X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:52:24 -0000 On 11/28/2021 1:45 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > I think this is a great basis for discussion of how to make community > consultation tenable (I have nits, but specifically like the fact that > this proposed process is concrete, well-defined, and time-bound under > normal circumstances). I presume it has been posted at least partially > in response to the recent exchanges I've had with Brian and Joel. > > However: if we engage on this kind of proposal right now, we're > jumping clean over the question of whether defining this process (and > making it an RSWG prerequisite for series changes) is an rfced-future > activity or an RSWG activity. As both a practical matter and a matter > of principle, I think it's the latter. I think we're all agreed that approval of this document will require sign off by the IAB, IESG,and LLC.  That won't change with this.  The intent is to give the deciders the broadest possible set of information on whether or not to proceed. There's a second question as to whether or not the IAB,IESG,LLC will reserve to themselves the right to approve certain further changes to the RFC Series.  If they do, that approval process would be a similar model to the original document approval. Mike From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:55:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEA53A08BE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:55:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m1t-jhU1OxLt for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 716793A08BF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2Hjv0lljz6G9NB for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:55:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638125731; bh=eeMSUScv7IvzmHH05//+TjHa4WvX7hNhVZLApxTQShE=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=cxJHuVQUeuibh5ibWu07Ht0m6HCuTGeHM2zgsR5DNAxOEtD/oUkD1dPtX5HgQ9Qgk M7UdkMthzzVNS8+ooS3xb4L/HmpyP292NRYHLINxYQnQpIInfPWckq9QSOO1SiuU51 hwT5ihtDA7qynFWrVsw/RStP3d+AQTyldCSI17Po= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2Hjt55fxz6G9Mn for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:55:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:55:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Archival Series X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:55:36 -0000 I would note that the principle that the series is archival, with a moderately long time frame, has driven actions such as making PDF/A available for RFCs, including the XML in the PDF/A, and arranging for long term archival facilities to mirror our PDF/A repository. Yours, Joel On 11/28/2021 1:13 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the >>> original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the >>> adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series >>> as opposed one aspect of how the documents are handled. >> >> FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for >> me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully >> will continue to be, relevant. >> >> So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" > > It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an > archive or handled in archival ways; see especially §4.3 of RFC 4844 > (some or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Program document > we're working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival > series" really accomplishes. > > Peter > From nobody Sun Nov 28 10:57:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA3C3A08BF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:57:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8eCJXR71Uwq for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD9B93A08BE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ASIv30b018442 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:57:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638125825; bh=cNY6lC6NNPLyaGKmfORQAatqdey2OAS5Qxx/ExdW5Ls=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Zej8MUfew7Oc4TaCQ4DC0D/Mz2TV2TH1In5pQ6nSmfuhwP30yrXg370/jkXMXv15H 4WBPXrKWzB5wT31kRIMKR3l7EacxFXZrKS8Fo6nmNxBpRQdxZ7QLkr3XQnvp1Z5Jb4 /iu9AR9w0gbhTSD4hI6Xr2PtM60uhxA649towN1A= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Michael StJohns , "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <8c64870c-8401-4d00-bc38-a4c43808d5f1@nthpermutation.com> <8c0a4383-5378-b0e4-a297-48219c095588@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <4ebcffbd-b117-dea9-c502-0591913a80c1@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:56:58 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] On Communities X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:57:13 -0000 On 11/28/2021 12:52 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/28/2021 1:45 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> I think this is a great basis for discussion of how to make community >> consultation tenable (I have nits, but specifically like the fact >> that this proposed process is concrete, well-defined, and time-bound >> under normal circumstances). I presume it has been posted at least >> partially in response to the recent exchanges I've had with Brian and >> Joel. >> >> However: if we engage on this kind of proposal right now, we're >> jumping clean over the question of whether defining this process (and >> making it an RSWG prerequisite for series changes) is an rfced-future >> activity or an RSWG activity. As both a practical matter and a matter >> of principle, I think it's the latter. > > I think we're all agreed that approval of this document will require > sign off by the IAB, IESG,and LLC.  That won't change with this.  The > intent is to give the deciders the broadest possible set of > information on whether or not to proceed. > > There's a second question as to whether or not the IAB,IESG,LLC will > reserve to themselves the right to approve certain further changes to > the RFC Series.  If they do, that approval process would be a similar > model to the original document approval. Everything you say above seems correct to me, but I struggle to connect it to the question of whether defining the parameters around community consultation should be under the purview of rfced-future or of the RSWG. /a From nobody Sun Nov 28 11:08:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45363A08CC for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:08:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k5cKrjq-a1MR for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 344BB3A08C5 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id w4so14741399ilv.12 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:07:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3TKbBX296xaXSN67MsTXKZRYxmn0RyyXIFQ9vl7p4Nc=; b=rFXbUjiuq8/B/7P7kgAkrP60iOfNPrMo6Zx+A+5yZmAjEGi6kssrQEKniTKECrzidf ycieVRLO274Ov9IWdEadyI+KVSnYQ/PRQho/FD04CQR1UoLkX/NLtYHcf41l9mE/QX3j clWgWxAkJ7rFOwr/1IVQ226Z3eTBDblYRO+NdiQUCxMDS2elTUAQium5YZ8Wq36f0CY2 v7F0UppiXSOjwe1eyRX+FDpRCt7cf2Kc6+bNZeqzmP94hxS11nrd+jtuRkLSa7r+vi3v s0DdVy7Upt4Z9pvzXNH8RnkugrJw4n8YOpQn/4wlJV+M76rTjd/QvyV5cvQgB1A/D49+ Vd1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3TKbBX296xaXSN67MsTXKZRYxmn0RyyXIFQ9vl7p4Nc=; b=pJaR0/KOV8KDtdH7nDkUtR3R/BxNtwwkzV5pEiOdfqvlOJy+n+/GudtRYK6Wudv467 IjEdlbhLhZ/4Se7SoYLPeFEGjJ2bKibcf0VxYQ8bQr5CJBo7L0zyA7+Wxer0KCwvcM2D r4B+VSCZ0F8VanMTRvxzPGb2q1tQeOdEmQnytPCIsW/XM1uHcB2aQEgLPTdz8fHy5/O0 g5y4Wu06yYeLJliXlID/p8Mmex0umYy0hcibQW/VohHmVW9rvn7SZ46W/JNJ5Gs8oztC dViTo/q6p4jtmcxVrsUbl1qmFLyLLnNdxAI9gO+btY0YdcZ6DeWqcVW2lS3wE7x/5+q8 XXKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530NZMUJl56xp6Qs5Lx8rl8LjUc77a+HluzyQTL9p4DVd4HfcnJi 1wbptqAK71I3MgpZf7evP2baBYQZ/isVnqZ1Yzsojav9TUE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYGKaWyiVq/ps2b1wckWNzsrKihi7qN8bbSY3aetAoDkKly0c3U5qPipApzmRcPT2QsVIxEWnixemt6OhOcpw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:db04:: with SMTP id b4mr41978126iln.276.1638126474392; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:07:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <3fd021a5-b263-7a9d-b963-8a456e521b67@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:07:18 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael StJohns Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a9a0005d1de0a51" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:08:01 -0000 --0000000000009a9a0005d1de0a51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 10:46 AM Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/28/2021 1:13 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > Hiya, > > On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original bu= t > as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does much f= or > us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one > aspect of how the documents are handled. > > > FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for > me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully > will continue to be, relevant. > > So I'd be against a change to "NEWER" > > > It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an > archive or handled in archival ways; see especially =C2=A74.3 of RFC 4844= (some > or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Program document we're > working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival series" > really accomplishes. > > Peter > > Archival is the opposite of "ephemeral". Long lasting, well known > location, well known taxonomy, suitable to be used in archives, . > Contrast with ephemeral: lasting a short time, transient, fleeting, > changing, momentary. > > Or better yet: > https://dictionary.archivists.org/entry/archival-nature.html > archival nature n.The characteristics that are inherent in archival > documents resulting from the circumstances of their creation, including > naturalness, organic nature or interrelationship, impartiality, > authenticity, and uniqueness. > > https://dictionary.archivists.org/index.html > This seems like a good example of where a dictionary definition is not helping us very much at all. 1. I don't know what naturalness means, especially in the context of techical documentation. 2. Our documents most certainly are not impartial. 3. I don't know what it would mean for our documents to be authentic. 4. I also do not know if our documents are unique. Moreover, I don't think that this definition--or indeed any generic one--sheds much light on what people seem to want "archival" to mean. As a concrete example, I've regularly heard "archival" used as an argument against "living standards" (as should be apparent, I do not share this view) but I think you'd have to work pretty hard to get that out of this definition. -Ekr --0000000000009a9a0005d1de0a51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 10:46 AM Mich= ael StJohns <msj@nthpermutatio= n.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 11/28/2021 1:13 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 11/28/21 10:43 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

Hiya,

On 28/11/2021 17:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
With respect to "archival series&quo= t;: yes, I know this is in the original but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one aspect=C2=A0of=C2=A0how=C2=A0the=C2=A0documents=C2=A0are=C2=A0han= dled.

FWIW, I disagree. The archival nature of the series is, for
me, a crucial part of why the series has been, and hopefully
will continue to be, relevant.

So I'd be against a change to "NEWER"

It's true that the documents published in the Series are kept in an archive or handled in archival ways; see especially =C2=A74.3 of R= FC 4844 (some or all of which I've suggested we pull into the Progra= m document we're working on). I still remain unsure what calling it an "archival series" really accomplishes.

Peter

Archival is the opposite of "ephemeral".=C2=A0=C2=A0 Long = lasting, well known location, well known taxonomy, suitable to be used in archives, .=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Contrast with ephemeral:=C2=A0 lasting = a short time, transient, fleeting, changing, momentary.

Or better yet: https://dictionary.archivists.org/entry/archival-natu= re.html

archival nature

n= .The characteristics that are inherent in archival documents resulting from the circumstances of their creation, including naturalness, organic nature or interrelationship, impartiality, authenticity, and uniqueness.

https://dictionary.archivists.org/index.html


This seems like a good example o= f where a dictionary definition is not helping us very much at all.

1. I don't know what naturalness means, especially in= the context of techical documentation.
2. Our documents most cer= tainly are not impartial.
3. I don't know what it would mean = for our documents to be authentic.
4. I also do not know if our d= ocuments are unique.

Moreover, I don't think t= hat this definition--or indeed any generic one--sheds much light on what
people seem to want "archival" to mean. As a concrete exa= mple, I've regularly heard "archival"
used as an ar= gument against "living standards" (as should be apparent, I do no= t share this
view) but I think you'd have to work pretty hard= to get that out of this definition.

-Ekr

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List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:42:59 -0000 --------------rQJmbgr01uTrMiNq0pX0g0tx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------i719HaCmDdP7IVIAxtThINWx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: John C Klensin , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: --------------i719HaCmDdP7IVIAxtThINWx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fRfFr0c7QdCiqT42FMwhCHrY" --------------fRfFr0c7QdCiqT42FMwhCHrY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpKdXN0IG9uIGEgZmV3IGJpdHMgb2YgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24sIGJ1dCBub3QgcmVhbGx5 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2002:a05:6e02:ca9:: with SMTP id 9mr52426589ilg.60.1638128893551; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:48:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:47:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: John C Klensin , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cbff7e05d1de9aba" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:48:21 -0000 --000000000000cbff7e05d1de9aba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:43 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Just on a few bits of the discussion, but not really > directly addressing John so much... > > On 28/11/2021 18:13, John C Klensin wrote: > > While we may not have a precise definition of > > "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, > > To be honest and frank, I find it really hard to believe > that we really need a better definition of that word. We > can validly disagree as to whether it's a principle around > here or not, but it's pretty obvious what it means. I hope > we don't get distracted into quibbling over definitions. > I don't generally find claims that something is "obvious" to be very persuasive. If it's in fact "obvious" then we should have no trouble converging on a definition. If we end up "quibbling" that's generally a sign that it's not in fact obvious. -Ekr > > > I > > note that the traditional interpretation of "archival" in the > > RFC Series includes documents, once published under a given > > number, being static. > > FWIW, I believe that not all but many versions of what ekr > has said he'd like to see (i.e. RFC10000.1 superceded by > RFC10000.2 or similar) can be entirely consistent with an > archival series. > > Yes, it'd be a change that'd require significant review and > maybe even onerous efforts on the part of those who'd want > that change, but that'd be true in all cases. Whether or not > it'd be a change for the good is an open question for me. If > a form of what ekr wanted resulted is the series no longer > being describable as an archival series, then that would be > a bad change that I'd oppose myself. > > Cheers, > S. > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > --000000000000cbff7e05d1de9aba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:43 AM Step= hen Farrell <stephen.farrel= l@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Just on a few bits of the discussion, but not really
directly addressing John so much...

On 28/11/2021 18:13, John C Klensin wrote:
> While we may not have a precise definition of
> "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone,

To be honest and frank, I find it really hard to believe
that we really need a better definition of that word. We
can validly disagree as to whether it's a principle around
here or not, but it's pretty obvious what it means. I hope
we don't get distracted into quibbling over definitions.

I don't generally find claims that something is &= quot;obvious" to be
very persuasive. If it's in fact &qu= ot;obvious" then we should have
no trouble converging on a d= efinition. If we end up "quibbling"
that's generall= y a sign that it's not in fact obvious.

-Ekr


=C2=A0

> I
> note that the traditional interpretation of "archival" in th= e
> RFC Series includes documents, once published under a given
> number, being static.=C2=A0

FWIW, I believe that not all but many versions of what ekr
has said he'd like to see (i.e. RFC10000.1 superceded by
RFC10000.2 or similar) can be entirely consistent with an
archival series.

Yes, it'd be a change that'd require significant review and
maybe even onerous efforts on the part of those who'd want
that change, but that'd be true in all cases. Whether or not
it'd be a change for the good is an open question for me. If
a form of what ekr wanted resulted is the series no longer
being describable as an archival series, then that would be
a bad change that I'd oppose myself.

Cheers,
S.
--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.= org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
--000000000000cbff7e05d1de9aba-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 11:49:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2AE93A0943 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:49:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CECbPDuyvdMo for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A0D3A0947 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mrQAd-000L5z-Nk; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:49:07 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:49:01 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <98EF356DEF01C5ECFBE4B859@PSB> In-Reply-To: <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:49:17 -0000 --On Sunday, November 28, 2021 11:16 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Agreed. While we may not have a precise definition of >> "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, it >> has a range of important implications, ones that become even >> more important if the document is not to state [other] >> principles. > > My point is that merely asserting it's an "archival series" > isn't all that valuable on its own: what matters is specifying > those implications somewhere, not pinning all of one's hopes > on the adjective "archival". I see that a little differently. I suggest that the people around the IETF who have been using and thinking about the RFC Series for at least several years have a reasonable shared understanding of what the term implies. Yes, that understanding is more intuitive and/or based in oral tradition than something we are prepared to write down. If there are people here who believe we should be making changes that might make the Series less "archival", it is not because of disagreement about the definition; it is disagreement about principles (whoops, that word), goals, or philosophy. And, yes, trying to agree on a precise and comprehensive definition would take us down ratholes of almost unimaginable size and complexity. But I don't think "we can't define that precisely and should not try" translates into either "the term is meaningless and should be removed" or "let's take it out of the document and pretend it is not an issue". If, instead of a definition, you want examples of some of the things that implies, I gave a couple in my earlier note. As mentioned by others, I think something about very long term availability and accessibility without dragging along a lot of obsolete baggage [1] would also belong in there. But I don't think we move forward by dropping "archival" and replacing it with nothing. best, john [1] For examples of excessive "baggage", consider what it would take to run an assembly language program for a 1960s-era machine on a modern Linux setup or what you would need to do to retrieve information from a eight inch floppy disc. Certainly not impossible unless the bits or surface of the medium have deteriorated, but a lot more trouble than most would consider reasonable. 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b=KHRd2lkElBDvsBcArb1tfH2AxrD5LsppPAWHAv2qNLMvnwtgj5ClcRQdBVKM1Nn0Jz 9Jcvd7xT8CWlKm1ysyiR7nJKe8j/siiNxHL6s0cFKwA0dJplSZy23+jMKbqOCOx+Yzes mMo2Ud437Rd/pSuAtMaVQzDBQB3UHwn0XVetifCnrypU6UpCA6VXN8zzt18JjAZ9OwP3 lwrG8WjryE1hUt8T0ZATU1ySI8gzet1+nb607vyXaFS5rqCKKmS1PKary81BqvJHlkQo VJfGRMG3VOtwC6rmmFl1vQVzslNDLh6m+/0LdeDJkZFVrvEp3B5lEBiPVPTxglu/TjV2 I0TA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ohANuclnSUzuellizAQJkdMOExezbB3p5t1hChFKGPIB4gcq9 3hPtsJ6oYonNtkWyvcXegpRefDQBMhXObYRjCF8OAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzf8moJRu3cvp8yT6nqqocOrSn2YZHqLJBXDucolNuGwGne/qyCrkuY7mu4kPFeYMYxpnCPbIOxgJbtw75Ov/s= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b4cc:: with SMTP id d195mr51601849iof.0.1638129649219; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:00:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> <98EF356DEF01C5ECFBE4B859@PSB> In-Reply-To: <98EF356DEF01C5ECFBE4B859@PSB> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:00:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: John C Klensin Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Stephen Farrell , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d68d3705d1dec797" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:01:06 -0000 --000000000000d68d3705d1dec797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:49 AM John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Sunday, November 28, 2021 11:16 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > >> Agreed. While we may not have a precise definition of > >> "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, it > >> has a range of important implications, ones that become even > >> more important if the document is not to state [other] > >> principles. > > > > My point is that merely asserting it's an "archival series" > > isn't all that valuable on its own: what matters is specifying > > those implications somewhere, not pinning all of one's hopes > > on the adjective "archival". > > I see that a little differently. I suggest that the people > around the IETF who have been using and thinking about the RFC > Series for at least several years have a reasonable shared > understanding of what the term implies. Yes, that understanding > is more intuitive and/or based in oral tradition than something > we are prepared to write down. If there are people here who > believe we should be making changes that might make the Series > less "archival", it is not because of disagreement about the > definition; it is disagreement about principles (whoops, that > word), goals, or philosophy. > It seems to me that this statement assumes its conclusion, namely that people want to make changes that would make the series less "archival", but of course that assumes that those changes would in fact do so. To go back to my previous example. imagine that we changed the RFC series such that any given RFC had a set of concrete semantically identical versions numbered RFC X.1, RFC X.2, etc. and that one could always link to RFC X.Y but that RFC X went to the latest version. I do not believe that this would make the series less archival (indeed, arguably it would make it moreso in that it preserves history rather than burying it in a series of non-archived errata plus a roll-up -bis version). On the other hand, I've heard this idea criticized precisely on the grounds that it would make the series less archival. My point here is that having the word "archival" here obscures that disagreement over the basic principle about what the series ought to be like, rather than illuminating it. -Ekr --000000000000d68d3705d1dec797 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:49 AM John= C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com&g= t; wrote:


--On Sunday, November 28, 2021 11:16 -0700 Peter Saint-Andre
<stpeter@stpeter= .im> wrote:

>> Agreed.=C2=A0 While we may not have a precise definition of
>> "archival", especially one that would satisfy everyone, = it
>> has a range of important implications, ones that become even
>> more important if the document is not to state [other]
>> principles.
>
> My point is that merely asserting it's an "archival series&qu= ot;
> isn't all that valuable on its own: what matters is specifying
> those implications somewhere, not pinning all of one's hopes
> on the adjective "archival".

I see that a little differently.=C2=A0 I suggest that the people
around the IETF who have been using and thinking about the RFC
Series for at least several years have a reasonable shared
understanding of what the term implies. Yes, that understanding
is more intuitive and/or based in oral tradition than something
we are prepared to write down.=C2=A0 If there are people here who
believe we should be making changes that might make the Series
less "archival", it is not because of disagreement about the
definition; it is disagreement about principles (whoops, that
word), goals, or philosophy.

It seems = to me that this statement assumes its conclusion, namely
that peo= ple want to make changes that would make the series
less "ar= chival", but of course that assumes that those changes
would= in fact do so.

To go back to my previous exam= ple. imagine that we changed
the RFC series such that any given R= FC had a set of concrete
semantically identical versions numbered= RFC X.1, RFC X.2, etc.
and that one could always link to RFC X.Y= but that RFC X went
to the latest version. I do not believe that= this would make the
series less archival (indeed, arguably it wo= uld make it moreso
in that it preserves history rather than buryi= ng it in a series
of non-archived errata plus a roll-up -bis vers= ion). On the other
hand, I've heard this idea criticized prec= isely on the grounds
that it would make the series less archival.=

My point here is that having the word "a= rchival" here obscures
that disagreement over the basic prin= ciple about what the
series ought to be like, rather than illumin= ating it.

-Ekr











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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPBx0t7bJMka for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AACC3A095C for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2KS219WRz6G9R2; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638130418; bh=l09ktfrx73O4qoWhSyozeKm8GpbTGlcB5WYbBAEAbC0=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=QxEhb1TnJulRo317PKs5mC76/mCQv+K5yzscufYN45zDvBXfw/Zisvj3NWnVT33UA t6ZB6i+5MxUBNqGhN59Jefoi94ObnIHKNs9Q4MLrmkOABwm9m98NurHBLTqYxef0Wk u5ANu+W3FQDrWzMZryq9aHZXyBBKt+ZJHD/fbDf0= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2KS14JFDz6G9Mn; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:13:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> <98EF356DEF01C5ECFBE4B859@PSB> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:13:43 -0000 If we change the meaning of the string "RFC 8200" (or similar existing referents) as your text implies, I would have serious objections. On the other hand, if the proposal were that starting with RFC 11000 (10000 is probably too soon to pull it off), we switched to the meaning you want, would be happy to engage in a discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of such a change, including the meaning of semantically identical, and other related issues. However, as currently written, the former would require no more stringent community checking and support than the latter. That is an example of why I think we need principles written down, and text saying that changing them requires more care. Yours, Joel On 11/28/2021 3:00 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > ... > > To go back to my previous example. imagine that we changed > the RFC series such that any given RFC had a set of concrete > semantically identical versions numbered RFC X.1, RFC X.2, etc. > and that one could always link to RFC X.Y but that RFC X went > to the latest version. I do not believe that this would make the > series less archival (indeed, arguably it would make it moreso > in that it preserves history rather than burying it in a series > of non-archived errata plus a roll-up -bis version). On the other > hand, I've heard this idea criticized precisely on the grounds > that it would make the series less archival. > > My point here is that having the word "archival" here obscures > that disagreement over the basic principle about what the > series ought to be like, rather than illuminating it. > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Sun Nov 28 12:14:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2AB3A095D for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5sj4PYs-uDCB for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B43F93A0954 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id z26so18499590iod.10 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=neYvVOSgA1fHcGI2EUtQ6584WGFl4BdaMXP17mD23tU=; b=Hw0qTwDAXcFd9+81OZFhvPY9rkPfIr2cPdewtRb0zPJ9nxVuZUrv31ao1S/6/L7cj4 j+JFF49S3mMxB/pyR+bcqocnb+zEgCshw9G8+Xs+mLGejDscCoXGn0iyxY8342OlJk+A EUoOwAcXobjUdmZ8hoMFGmnZ7nFGoOJKlvRY+vcItevr344rAM/nlGFqzvIC4SFkj2tf HGkqeR/2anz9A0bFU+cHvUa2oCgy2AOTxGiCSrRXPp2037XmLjDJUWCQzn1kPPGQzlve rfTevy0AGKD1jvR+LDcH0/TSHEP9hEeByM/9/P76TRrsIWZC/w6fbmEYXgVf6SoQhjqV v+sQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=neYvVOSgA1fHcGI2EUtQ6584WGFl4BdaMXP17mD23tU=; b=BCRT3IKLblbsLn43WhBgU4o0fyODT2g4uLT1fGibHa+dzlLmrPu+ds2gZmeFi0T3eT D+VhrXKeV7JItnjZaWwgbXM/DR40AZf23QcJZI/I4uXoGGMg9dhIBbnm/Zr8yNS25GVD Fs7hmmwz8DJK8urSBJetBVmbXemYylEL2uWg1B00BpZuGBMCaYJx6z9wOE2Q0v8np717 dwnhpId3QHJQ8mJKsvShq7e7YpNnDjCRn1sXmwkddl03uLT4foou21U11svCycXQ0oYe w5C6fu8JsGYoP2g7RFS90a72AE2dxS4bbKrLGDFSqppLyMlD5MfC7Am6s88v6fsxloDn HhGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530b2STOB0NY4uiLc33SrDey/506xKoRKYxoe0SL6aCxPfZMKLmU ZnArgsxuXUOMh0l4mk5P+PDLt47tzvSxl0Az8II1ZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLNuyvV/SUL4zE5jjQvsp9srg5J8UYFmvFIoJi7iaBkWzq2NHIs6WKMcbZcnf5RmLYQ52wb43Og2bvxGm3eo4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b4cc:: with SMTP id d195mr51689138iof.0.1638130473760; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:13:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: John C Klensin , Peter Saint-Andre , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fc09f605d1def8a8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:14:40 -0000 --000000000000fc09f605d1def8a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 12:03 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 28/11/2021 19:47, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I don't generally find claims that something is "obvious" to be > > very persuasive. If it's in fact "obvious" then we should have > > no trouble converging on a definition. If we end up "quibbling" > > that's generally a sign that it's not in fact obvious. > > The above is often true. It's also often true that > (entirely well meaning) people use proxies and tactics > when arguing. > > I'll re-assert that I find it hard to believe people > really need that term better defined for this discussion. > I'm honestly not sure how to answer this, given that I've already said repeatedly that I do need it better defined for this discussion, and indeed given several examples of how I think it's unclear. Presumably, I know my internal state better than you do, however hard you may find it to believe that that is my state. -Ekr --000000000000fc09f605d1def8a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 12:03 PM Step= hen Farrell <stephen.farrel= l@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

On 28/11/2021 19:47, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> I don't generally find claims that something is "obvious"= ; to be
> very persuasive. If it's in fact "obvious" then we shoul= d have
> no trouble converging on a definition. If we end up "quibbling&qu= ot;
> that's generally a sign that it's not in fact obvious.

The above is often true. It's also often true that
(entirely well meaning) people use proxies and tactics
when arguing.

I'll re-assert that I find it hard to believe people
really need that term better defined for this discussion.
<= div>
I'm honestly not sure how to answer this, given that= I've already
said repeatedly that I do need it better define= d for this discussion,
and indeed given several examples of how I= think it's unclear.

Presumably, I know my int= ernal state better than you do, however
hard you may find it to b= elieve that that is my state.

-Ekr
=
--000000000000fc09f605d1def8a8-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 13:19:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA0E3A0483 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSYJgglOn5v8 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0D4A3A045E for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id w22so18739896ioa.1 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4BCKU7G32m0R01qNv63wdw+eTFx7Zh8d3eR+p2CYiwA=; b=motGcqUkY4xm7fmvcyq/wxU6nWUme+Ebw/csrPsrMVA4XT8yfn/6jAe3QIzTSl5zFZ B7+dgnmoH7xsHPsQUFkt0jrxIp+ArcQJ5NeL3fTwF1TamJim3xMgiswi8Au1047ZYGKS +EHeRE5yBk4n0TtGbfgL9XsiWOrA+A3dlog6JhxcfSknNAjsj2GruNHVf4TqkfWGOY0G dojfNh+Tv9wcB5tmj7mxKX2MUoJI55i03t7yBmKxfaGfp1ChwrVaS0VOb4MPCeqX0TIi xY196/y7yF0HFTHfogKrg8ivs5giu0CGAz6mXgypNO+8PS+4FgCTVe0oR62YxSUTnr26 58fQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4BCKU7G32m0R01qNv63wdw+eTFx7Zh8d3eR+p2CYiwA=; b=aHFFDqVsS5zqxQYzI4h2VQeizgEg/10zP2WnoefyeEFNOr2HtA8QoqSMdDdhek9otk nDA4RqwEwRW75x18mQGQGiiri0t/2hIWPup92UHvHVcnsXksQfOxWJ546Gj0YQ+Lb7EG IUSP4ys5isIaDarGxZusXfwr7ImDCP+y+ohXoXx9zI5Gq2BXkVmrKFak3w19KHyiab/p GKLFqES+d8ZGhlHcUM5vYD1MCS/zt85vm6lhpWT/+0cOjnWVrFGgiveDJzL/ex1RbYcQ PGP7MW1AvyZYDiGRw2As6jWJlUz4FHbdFdncaoOVkMgbpuFZPjaX2dkD3T6JhyolNXqK kPGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531kQCH6VO11PyWP6DKYeoHUfcQmO8GYuk5c/UIRIckWH3SGCNms 4IpUkLqLSR808417aENDcWrZ74cFNV2fKOWKOYyfJqRqDlQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzoxQCPoamljyEz9ca8gdWQ2/4VfdPW3G2bfLZ3rrRk72628xh6IfjHNTf5jmfnwr7Y3+wqQzXfULU71/8uSlk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:190f:: with SMTP id p15mr62430211jal.82.1638134371838; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <5ab1619c-0a8a-8f78-3ee0-27dc59bd748f@stpeter.im> <98EF356DEF01C5ECFBE4B859@PSB> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:19:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054002505d1dfe1fb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:19:39 -0000 --00000000000054002505d1dfe1fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 12:13 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > If we change the meaning of the string "RFC 8200" (or similar existing > referents) as your text implies, I would have serious objections. > > On the other hand, if the proposal were that starting with RFC 11000 > (10000 is probably too soon to pull it off), we switched to the meaning > you want, would be happy to engage in a discussion of the benefits and > drawbacks of such a change, including the meaning of semantically > identical, and other related issues. > > However, as currently written, the former would require no more > stringent community checking and support than the latter. That is an > example of why I think we need principles written down, and text saying > that changing them requires more care. > We are in agreement that retroactively changing the meaning of existing RFC references would require quite a bit more thinking than for future references [0] , and merely as a substantive matter, I would be more than happy to leave all RFCs before 11000 (or whatever) in a different state than RFCs after that. As to the procedural matter, it seems to me that the same people who are concerned about the impact of this kind of change are going to be around to object to it and would be able to insist on a more careful review. It's not clear to me that it needs to be encoded into this document, and it seems to me that there are real harms in doing so, both in terms of the difficulty of drawing the right line -- and the costs of drawing the wrong one -- and of having our ability make even noncontroversial changes extremely limited by the lack of completion of this process. -Ekr [0] Though I'm not sure the meaning is as clear-cut as people often think. Yours, > > Joel > > On 11/28/2021 3:00 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > ... > > > > To go back to my previous example. imagine that we changed > > the RFC series such that any given RFC had a set of concrete > > semantically identical versions numbered RFC X.1, RFC X.2, etc. > > and that one could always link to RFC X.Y but that RFC X went > > to the latest version. I do not believe that this would make the > > series less archival (indeed, arguably it would make it moreso > > in that it preserves history rather than burying it in a series > > of non-archived errata plus a roll-up -bis version). On the other > > hand, I've heard this idea criticized precisely on the grounds > > that it would make the series less archival. > > > > My point here is that having the word "archival" here obscures > > that disagreement over the basic principle about what the > > series ought to be like, rather than illuminating it. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --00000000000054002505d1dfe1fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 12:13 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
If we change the meaning of = the string "RFC 8200" (or similar existing
referents) as your text implies, I would have serious objections.

On the other hand, if the proposal were that starting with RFC 11000
(10000 is probably too soon to pull it off), we switched to the meaning you want, would be happy to engage in a discussion of the benefits and
drawbacks of such a change, including the meaning of semantically
identical, and other related issues.

However, as currently written, the former would require no more
stringent community checking and support than the latter.=C2=A0 That is an =
example of why I think we need principles written down, and text saying that changing them requires more care.

= We are in agreement that retroactively changing the meaning of existing
RFC references would require quite a bit more thinking than for futu= re
references [0] , and merely as a substantive matter, I would b= e more than
happy to leave all RFCs before 11000 (or whatever) in= a different state
than RFCs after that.

As to the procedural matter, it seems to me that the same people who
=
are concerned about the impact of this kind of change are going to
be around to object to it and would be able to insist on a more care= ful
review. It's not clear to me that it needs to be encoded = into this document,
and it seems to me that there are real harms = in doing so, both in terms
of the difficulty of drawing the right= line -- and the costs of drawing the
wrong one -- and of having = our ability make even noncontroversial changes
extremely limited = by the lack of completion of this process.

-Ek= r

[0] Though I'm not sure the meaning is as cl= ear-cut as people often think.

Yours,
=C2=A0
Joel

On 11/28/2021 3:00 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
...
>
> To go back to my previous example. imagine that we changed
> the RFC series such that any given RFC had a set of concrete
> semantically identical versions numbered RFC X.1, RFC X.2, etc.
> and that one could always link to RFC X.Y but that RFC X went
> to the latest version. I do not believe that this would make the
> series less archival (indeed, arguably it would make it moreso
> in that it preserves history rather than burying it in a series
> of non-archived errata plus a roll-up -bis version). On the other
> hand, I've heard this idea criticized precisely on the grounds
> that it would make the series less archival.
>
> My point here is that having the word "archival" here obscur= es
> that disagreement over the basic principle about what the
> series ought to be like, rather than illuminating it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--00000000000054002505d1dfe1fb-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 17:04:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CC83A0AA8 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wPLFxdWrJi0S for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A938A3A0AA7 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AT14MPA081576 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:04:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638147865; bh=jc3US9aJ3dZaBQpL3BzsOtbUzD8L1KJxlyapQBweN/I=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Wr1mpeEkz0meTfSdGrMAYXbYjaVpI4sDwL62yd6j8XBkrjpJqVnPZ9zG6W9YMJZZr 1QdCBRAPd+nVdZcGOxns4Xj2U1xGIg5iM4BbREX5p/2+hhH9dabElDomwphHIxRW6t Nu3xeJ6IRjERN7DDGFHDLvkccsgqmEDwS3tcbYmc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , Eric Rescorla Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:04:18 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 01:04:36 -0000 On 11/28/2021 2:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 28/11/2021 19:47, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> I don't generally find claims that something is "obvious" to be >> very persuasive. If it's in fact "obvious" then we should have >> no trouble converging on a definition. If we end up "quibbling" >> that's generally a sign that it's not in fact obvious. > > The above is often true. It's also often true that > (entirely well meaning) people use proxies and tactics > when arguing. > > I'll re-assert that I find it hard to believe people > really need that term better defined for this discussion. There have been multiple occurrences on this very list of people saying something along the lines of "This assertion that I make now is something that I, as a long time participant, know to be true, and to have always been true. Others who have been doing this for as long as I have will surely agree. I regret that we didn't write it down in RFC {5620,6635,etc}, but we clearly should have." Let's end this cycle of regretting that we didn't write it down. If the properties are clear, it should be easy write them down both for the edification of people who aren't you, and for the ability to reference those properties in the future. If the properties are not clear, then writing the word "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, since we're going to claim that the resulting document represents consensus when it actually means different things to different people -- which isn't consensus at all; cf. . On 11/28/2021 1:49 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > I suggest that the people > around the IETF who have been using and thinking about the RFC > Series for at least several years have a reasonable shared > understanding of what the term implies. Yes, that understanding > is more intuitive and/or based in oral tradition than something > we are prepared to write down. I do not believe that an unwritten oral history of important topics serves our community well -- especially based on the multiple lamentations of "we should have written that down" that I mention above -- and further assert that it is actively unwelcoming to newcomers. /a From nobody Sun Nov 28 17:35:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45F53A0035 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:35:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass 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X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 01:35:46 -0000 --------------L40uY7Zq0A7bbP40tvHq6Zxr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ZmLJKTN0nl8jtSeedBN0phLa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , Eric Rescorla Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> --------------ZmLJKTN0nl8jtSeedBN0phLa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0jtN9VSHZtzzBzaHxzaEgdZS" --------------0jtN9VSHZtzzBzaHxzaEgdZS Content-Type: text/plain; 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--------------0jtN9VSHZtzzBzaHxzaEgdZS-- --------------ZmLJKTN0nl8jtSeedBN0phLa-- --------------L40uY7Zq0A7bbP40tvHq6Zxr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGkLmUFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+r9 Ig/9HsnrKa9WMx2JdtYgJCDj2CtxX6Ql2h/wXVKK96cfM9VrYRA+Zy1j4li9pdkfrHjNxIHu7usl s1xgBN3t/Xn8HqAUWw7E1JmF+ZVkDSXaU8nm0zjzeSoW9Hb/nIe4twsNKjJQk4Nt22zook/KxA2J Cr4J9FjQgzrLZJKblpeEpmjl91PDcbtKi33CAvS90t7C4KCjuKSgoHqx9uP7q+dxaiQMqlmAQgpg RvbFeD05QKYIdOUNhPJOJ7o/bWFNDd2BxqajpG6Zu86m13dBP+8G/JdehBjzyMZ7wPsTpPJKuEms USh7/9Ff2/El/dRE+EYRXL/JARjRQE+vndvnY5ElYfPwOyoQKceTJtl5+tnlQ8fIm0qWH6BOLkI/ MR5zp87Jq4DzPB5eFU2g8ra1BazbAia1hk3Nebgt63+hGyK3yVnkoWjS4E135V6xuJPfmVx4sM4K /O6UK0BgmtDW63ji1TMh0BFL6uPAqvOVvyGhuWoC+wzod/ox3OEbMOnCYaRBUs1yacn/1F9xigtw 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header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0Xe7HbEAfYw for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34CE83A0120 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AT1cK7I087445 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:38:21 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638149902; bh=oGaQGDmBWViO93MtAkFLQgwdGCGQqIg1HiaOySZ1nYM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vXKW2k/ki+n8i1n5lqeuJy4coCTbzjMgA+PDKwoBp46VMlHEndA0XdDSa8riVqnj0 QWCtRzawfS9DkJ6ZVyDhQOT4bCDPpaRspdJq6UdyVs46yH3OetrG2uplKGneiWtYf0 Mf3j3GblT1KGyb47obxfi15Y3TCgJgifKbiVZuI8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , Eric Rescorla Cc: John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:38:16 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 01:38:35 -0000 On 11/28/2021 7:35 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: >> >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word "archival" >> into a document is manifestly problematic, > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > makes those potential future changes harder. > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > been accepted by all:-) There's glory for you. /a From nobody Sun Nov 28 18:08:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC013A091E for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oq7ng_u4lt-L for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A71F3A0917 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD00436DCF8; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yv9OTRjqZX3v; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41E41416E7C2; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:08:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:08:31 +1300 Cc: Adam Roach , Eric Rescorla , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:08:45 -0000 > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word "archival" = into a document is manifestly problematic, >=20 > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > but just do not agree that it ought be used. >=20 > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > makes those potential future changes harder. >=20 > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > been accepted by all:-) Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that I = have heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival': - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and longevity = as a structured, computer readable format - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this mean = that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they become = =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 documents) - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage - Always available - Assigned unique global references always available through those - Proactively deposited with multiple archives - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive') - Documented provenance - Author and date stamped - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival' = characteristics as the series Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published series' = than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of considering a = single principle in isolation. I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a = resolution as there will still be a split between those who believe we = can agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG to = tackle. Jay >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Sun Nov 28 18:25:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7923A011F for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:25:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org 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X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:25:46 -0000 --------------7vcgYQ34FabPWRyRP0suB1BD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------aHoUE0KYcx1U7Jm0l0byOsIr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley Cc: Adam Roach , Eric Rescorla , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <45d263ef-d483-df88-bad0-d8037467b13f@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: --------------aHoUE0KYcx1U7Jm0l0byOsIr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------kNQGcPww2hs6M7pVUhE1itPy" --------------kNQGcPww2hs6M7pVUhE1itPy Content-Type: 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b=OTvbL+Y5S6Pibm1wXZul58dgC4zrctvjN39QuLBKNywvK/3g+hS3ABy6w70oGZE26v Fqzo6iK0fvZAyS8JOaZgLYkw+gY22MXehDlEN41AVz6SOaG0YnpHh9S4P84jI/TdT682 Ii/SzkbWP9sKHWhRNs2B/UVhopqMJTWLUyK76MwstpcKG7+TNNSUa7eWOxh/PtZbZVa0 JIM6ORnugwSVxW523LgkbCkdy2KeOpow4J3Y+ZzRYQtb7S5NbOmE6i0urj5rjIuTTin9 vvhhGLIiChQKmJaYzz1EJNpmRz+Obk6phSJ/dLbae4mkGNRmmz+/FtYDCnm5yh/9BbPT f7WA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vIrgbVrPwOkwNuWK/7iqoO1pjM9mV/xezKZ08DyPhIDU3a9E+ WFne8wGeIr3dq/kSJRJaGjIMdOcI60Mx8Ei7F00msw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwKvjAQTAZF2vsrcgi8OLAiCLc9MFgXarF7CqI0DaH29If+/rn/2CrF1yAmfCRZ3G34ndc4/G+aIJLSpSymV+Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:ca9:: with SMTP id 9mr55156539ilg.60.1638153443548; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:37:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:36:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Stephen Farrell , Adam Roach , John C Klensin , rfced-future@iab.org, Peter Saint-Andre Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001737e705d1e4528b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:37:30 -0000 --0000000000001737e705d1e4528b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word "archival" into > a document is manifestly problematic, > > > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > > makes those potential future changes harder. > > > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > > been accepted by all:-) > > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that I ha= ve > heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival': > > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and longevity a= s > a structured, computer readable format > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this mean > that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they become =E2=80= =99new=E2=80=99 documents) > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > - Always available > - Assigned unique global references always available through those > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive') > - Documented provenance > - Author and date stamped > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival' > characteristics as the series > > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published series' > than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of considering a > single principle in isolation. > > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a > resolution as there will still be a split between those who believe we ca= n > agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG to tackle. > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a useful word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones. Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses them. -Ekr > Jay > > > > > Cheers, > > S. > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > --0000000000001737e705d1e4528b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay D= aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

> On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> w= rote:
>
>
> Hiya,
>
> On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote:
>> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word "archi= val" into a document is manifestly problematic,
>
> I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those
> with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It
> seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as
> problematic do have the same understanding of what it means,
> but just do not agree that it ought be used.
>
> IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one
> where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an
> important feature of the current series is maintained (while
> of course not preventing future consensus to make such major
> changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it
> makes those potential future changes harder.
>
> More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and
> its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used
> here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such
> "principles" have been made already and don't need repet= ition
> in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet
> been accepted by all:-)

Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that I have= heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival'= :

- Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and longevity as = a structured, computer readable format
- Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this mean that= revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they become =E2=80=99new= =E2=80=99 documents)
- Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
- Always available
- Assigned unique global references always available through those
- Proactively deposited with multiple archives
- Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive')=
- Documented provenance
- Author and date stamped
- Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival'= ; characteristics as the series

Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published series&#= 39; than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of consid= ering a single principle in isolation.

I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a resoluti= on as there will still be a split between those who believe we can agree su= ch a list and those who want that left to the RSWG to tackle.

Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that = some of these are trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are conteste= d.

It might be useful to ask whether those who thi= nk "archival" is a useful word would be willing to replace it wit= h the list of uncontested ones. Then we can avoid the argument about whethe= r "archival" encompasses them.

-Ekr<= /div>


Jay

>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future= @iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut= ure

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@i= etf.org

--0000000000001737e705d1e4528b-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 18:51:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F683A0A09 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:50:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j4-1nd1WdRkv for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A0153A0A08 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2VGN6QT9z6G9R2; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:50:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638154252; bh=WJpCjPmLLHqUaI9Sor4hclOX/AEZDW9QbUjF399eV0Q=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=PEzLHZsJzl0+gLARkWpJo99Y7k7OnOf6PXIiaZsBEexOFTiCGFZJMWQ+kmysjnded kwrn5eb+7NkTeuklU/OqkkYigrjso8Ig6+KCis8ogPiWreFDllqXv+eGBC1V5VNYnT /LOpoDgKIOd66usXxler4RkMPuUyImaNX8cmx6Ek= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2VGN0lf9z6G9ND; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:50:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:50:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:50:58 -0000 1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now an argument, when no one objected to it being definitional for the series before. 2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of the list would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are actually contested. (I do assume some is. I just don't know which ones.) Your, Joel On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > wrote: > > > > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > > wrote: > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > > > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > > makes those potential future changes harder. > > > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > > been accepted by all:-) > > Here’s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that I have > heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival': > > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and > longevity as a structured, computer readable format > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this > mean that revisions can’t be published, only that they become ’new’ > documents) > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > - Always available > - Assigned unique global references always available through those > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive') > - Documented provenance > - Author and date stamped > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival' > characteristics as the series > > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of > considering a single principle in isolation. > > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a > resolution as there will still be a split between those who believe > we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG to > tackle. > > > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. > > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a useful > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones. > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses them. > > -Ekr > > > Jay > > > > > Cheers, > > S. > > > > -- > > Rfced-future mailing list > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > From nobody Sun Nov 28 18:57:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8553A0A47 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h0Crn_dd61bj for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E75473A0A50 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:57:16 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KO0eSI41PFys8AnIPR+wH5w9jBsiFJNPIWvRK0msGtFeoBta9V9oHJ06OKTECwq+XFm84U3MQzDJUqZ/06J+pM+baZ89Qv/ZkP3vA6IsnY7/PsMCTWHh9E9zMwbS4iNxYOWaupX5JDcLX8EMbRNwwwZPeRCRMeeVf1PZCWcDeXwIxrdijTRuv1Ns1lTGoFJn2nJsZHVvXPCBoOJ/7VffXkjsgelgnIfKGgjCR//TZ5L+XcE3JsNP54igxmdXo4u6CBoZgxVl8me+kaUzOqxc4O0xOQbNSo8dgVVfHzLySUGOZ7GBLsBUfZhIAmOrZJnAU/+4HBxnacR9OHIznpis0g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ITntwSPXWHIKnW7QritdzA+nBybjfezdF6I+zarMzZg=; b=DxbVppGFu7/sy5H5d4nlgTryk7FADIaJSNf7tqqWJjvt9UMQIpoVBhOFB/Yf9O/W+dnzBbdJYgP3nE7PHRkaTfQAKKrZHypFSj7hjX8XvQFt7z4sOfM8YP+sVvUDV/ZUt6YlVlzXNJ3RiDd8w+NVN8JXn2OaVM1UI2Kg6FlLDLVySNGumxRhxk7gWW2gCXkBhIqzec888CDFZNA3RbTqHxp/zMymAUZqoVSB+10VdU0Ed86sxv7LjB8NEap9Ir1D7bTWmgkjzTH79IvL/NKRJsPwfK7iXkam/D0c9AD5S4E2fGB9E4veYpuKJ3o2S4kjGVjWDcx9uflrh9e4p+VxJg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ITntwSPXWHIKnW7QritdzA+nBybjfezdF6I+zarMzZg=; b=CgstJ/QsyGYw8rG/pT/MQmZv1OHu5F12TMs/aThkwoWsIo96VE2HniPQ8ZwkFtKnwpe/WGzYgQi3UIM5svF20VQJUc/oOa+fCGfR/OQD0JZHeLKaSr4MyL6Ly9XV71IZH2rQpvunQ6+7dXaMSFZxQ+N2MGZ60OzqpII8GfCRQRhrVzwUG5alRqdmNZrlOFHlbwjwjRXE9kAHzFX0Hw0zXsSOU5NRT/fL4f4ejVqDk09stXP+uG2PBhVSnNbGZg4O5DvjA7mXquXp0ZMpl61qCuds/pfHVFCxrBt7vflaBO25JsIGoRYc7Z4zDGdb7xPxafWZRwSWAP3/G/bywY28sA== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DBAPR02MB6312.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:19b::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:57:06 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:57:06 +0000 Message-ID: <925fe8b6-65ff-0aa5-e1e6-6342655c2412@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 02:57:04 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "Joel M. 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Halpern" , Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <925fe8b6-65ff-0aa5-e1e6-6342655c2412@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> --------------Cl726k5NliuCXs6rVCnxdF4I Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------p8zMEzokZNB2BOEgzDh0kgSg" --------------p8zMEzokZNB2BOEgzDh0kgSg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDI5LzExLzIwMjEgMDI6NTAsIEpvZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybiB3cm90ZToNCj4gMSkg SSBmaW5kIGl0IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHRoYXQgImFyY2hpdmFsIiBpcyBub3cgYW4gYXJndW1l bnQsIHdoZW4gbm8gb25lIA0KPiBvYmplY3RlZCB0byBpdCBiZWluZyBkZWZpbml0aW9uYWwg 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attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGkQYAFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pN Pg//elOZAmYr57RBSTYYlG9/kJS422ipjbUoMBExQwRmXXSP+ItZicW+6V2TlNvW2EeZK5Dn4gOf drZSAPX0R5hrvXcH03saI9FL3PKytxBX9YpV0fCqXiVXU+ZieAdbmVnpng9uDUl451RoN9/WV9Ur 3GzxRtxUiuC6h88xhqxWMUBAwb2QpoSjn3TWvfq9UPaBRSpsy/jMldGJySAE56GwNwy/YFVvE5qi jvKOPM0ChRXeOleXXV4zTS4yf5qnEbr2ZcZpx4m0yJZ3WkJC5TT0wHpsmpNjynXw9I+zGVD8xuZY zNyP+nQoxN6fSnctxgrrwnI6Y8wvcSZx6w9OQtIwvVy8vAz3XsV1QWBiQ7pxCGwWXkuV6SZuFESb VeededehXUmUjC4y5DKYR+KeqOA+z82RAR/56SsVnxMyMb3Rf8ktiJwS6D6+jImIOuz3Zdx3xKML kJhBsI8TMP0Z1TnAtMch6OCGjGe8zeaT/nvkTU5IFQQv2ExdHCsCUhhC+5Btgv80nOD0NOROQ4Sd V7i8kkndf6LlnoF/4dx3t9vPgmj20LoVO95WVZO5u8p4LvIhyQdbCQRF+vfshqKYjCLFLv1qo1Of /+46pnkVB+zKbWCH8q3REe3vnokLxatEFy597X5F/9cvTzKqOLpb2YHN5nXBb16YlpW6VJiHixNz IAU= =qRTT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------BTzHgF4SRfbW530GdvE9vrU0-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 19:02:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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<63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:01:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000040484e05d1e4aa8b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 03:02:11 -0000 --00000000000040484e05d1e4aa8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > 1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now an argument, when no one > objected to it being definitional for the series before. > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely rhetorical in the current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, now that it seems to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for changes, I find it important to know what it means. So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreement to abandon any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the current text that says "archival" 2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of the list > would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are actually > contested. (I do assume some is. I just don't know which ones.) > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes once published" seems to be one such piece. I don't know what the following mean" > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > - Always available In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always available" that (say) ietf.org is not? I also don't really know what this means: > - Documented provenance It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- or at least that the documentation is not itself archival. -Ekr > Your, > Joel > > On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: > > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word > > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > > > > > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > > > > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > > > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > > > makes those potential future changes harder. > > > > > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > > > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > > > been accepted by all:-) > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs tha= t I have > > heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival': > > > > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and > > longevity as a structured, computer readable format > > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this > > mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they beco= me =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 > > documents) > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > - Always available > > - Assigned unique global references always available through those > > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives > > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive') > > - Documented provenance > > - Author and date stamped > > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival= ' > > characteristics as the series > > > > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published > > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of > > considering a single principle in isolation. > > > > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a > > resolution as there will still be a split between those who believe > > we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG t= o > > tackle. > > > > > > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are > > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. > > > > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a usefu= l > > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones. > > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses the= m. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > S. > > > > > > -- > > > Rfced-future mailing list > > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > IETF Executive Director > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > > --00000000000040484e05d1e4aa8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh= @joelhalpern.com> wrote:
1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now a= n argument, when no one
objected to it being definitional for the series before.

Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be = largely rhetorical in the
current text, and so didn't really = object that much. However, now that it seems
to be attached to te= xt about a heightened degree of scrutiny for changes,
I find it i= mportant to know what it means.

So, I don't th= ink it's that interesting, and if we had agreement to abandon
any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the current
text that says "archival"

2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of the li= st
would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are actually
contested.=C2=A0 (I do assume some is.=C2=A0 I just don't know which on= es.)

Well, as I've noted a number o= f times "Content never changes once published" seems to
be one such piece.

I don't know what the foll= owing mean"

> - Suitable for 'permanen= t' (i.e. WORM) storage
> - Always available

<= div>In what sense is rfc-editor.org &= quot;always available" that (say) ietf.org= is not?

I also don't really know what= this means:

> - Documented provenance

It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rat= her fuzzy -- or at least
that the documentation is not itself arc= hival.

-Ekr


Your,
Joel

On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org
> <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&= gt;> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hiya,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> If the properties are not clear, then wri= ting the word
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"archival" into a document is manifestly = problematic,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I honestly disagree, while at the same time b= elieving those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with whom I'm disagreeing are being hones= t and up-front. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > seems to me that those for whom use of that w= ord is seen as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > problematic do have the same understanding of= what it means,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but just do not agree that it ought be used.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a = definition, but one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where some of us are trying to ensure what we= think of as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > important feature of the current series is ma= intained (while
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of course not preventing future consensus to = make such major
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say = that in case it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > makes those potential future changes harder.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > More simply: my belief is that we all underst= and the term and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > its consequences, but some us of do/don't= want to see it used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > here. In general, I think the arguments for i= nclusion of such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "principles" have been made already= and don't need repetition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in this mail. I acknowledge that those argume= nts have not yet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > been accepted by all:-)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific proper= ties of RFCs that I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0heard/understood to come under the general principl= e of 'archival':
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Canonical format chosen for maximum device-indepe= ndence and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longevity as a structured, computer readable format=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Content never changes once published (nobody has = suggested this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, onl= y that they become =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documents)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) stor= age
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Always available
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Assigned unique global references always availabl= e through those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Proactively deposited with multiple archives
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clearly identified and available as part of a set= (the 'archive')
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Documented provenance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Author and date stamped
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available separately and with much of th= e same 'archival'
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristics as the series
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of these may sit better under the principle of= 'published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series' than 'archival', which perhaps = illustrates the danger of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considering a single principle in isolation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I suspect though that defining a list will not take= us closer to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolution as there will still be a split between t= hose who believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can agree such a list and those who want that le= ft to the RSWG to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tackle.
>
>
> Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are =
> trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested.
>
> It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival"= is a useful
> word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones.=
> Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" enco= mpasses them.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > S.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>
>
--00000000000040484e05d1e4aa8b-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 19:06:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA13A0AC7 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.952 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.952 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uy35z7klvnO8 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F26303A0AC4 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2Vc149K1z6G9NB; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:06:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638155169; bh=LGt7Bx3SvPCeG+fHHJdfA43QfPjHBUxBaDK5X+ih++c=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=H04Cl9d+C1/FOBemY8nP1uGTZqjBJND71D9RdPghfP84V7Tvb/wfMSo+DQoQVYI0K uAXg05blvcfM6AEw/QnDXSLyxbSBRL18mZqQzp8oMcSGxrDeKEuJ2BrBauRxHLudHY he+1n9k1RKNrCVnDw/+WHYv99N+g7cAlF6DbGB0s= X-Quarantine-ID: <1WDuu6A0cDBZ> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2Vc05Rs6z6G9Mw; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:06:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 22:06:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 03:06:16 -0000 The two you list are how and why we have outside long term repositories maintaining copies of the series. In order to do so, there had to be a form suitable for such storage. PDF/A with the included XML met that requirement. Yours, Joel On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > 1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now an argument, when no > one > objected to it being definitional for the series before. > > > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely > rhetorical in the > current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, now that > it seems > to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for changes, > I find it important to know what it means. > > So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreement to abandon > any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the current > text that says "archival" > > > 2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of the list > would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are actually > contested.  (I do assume some is.  I just don't know which ones.) > > > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes once > published" seems to > be one such piece. > > I don't know what the following mean" > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > - Always available > > In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always > available" that (say) ietf.org is not? > > I also don't really know what this means: > > > - Documented provenance > > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- > or at least > that the documentation is not itself archival. > > -Ekr > > > Your, > Joel > > On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > > >      > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > >      > >> wrote: > >      > > >      > > >      > Hiya, > >      > > >      > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: > >      >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word > >     "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > >      > > >      > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those > >      > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > >      > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > >      > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > >      > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > >      > > >      > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > >      > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an > >      > important feature of the current series is maintained (while > >      > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > >      > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > >      > makes those potential future changes harder. > >      > > >      > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > >      > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > >      > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > >      > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > >      > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > >      > been accepted by all:-) > > > >     Here’s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that > I have > >     heard/understood to come under the general principle of > 'archival': > > > >     - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and > >     longevity as a structured, computer readable format > >     - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this > >     mean that revisions can’t be published, only that they become > ’new’ > >     documents) > > > >     - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > >     - Always available > >     - Assigned unique global references always available through > those > >     - Proactively deposited with multiple archives > >     - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the > 'archive') > >     - Documented provenance > >     - Author and date stamped > >     - Metadata available separately and with much of the same > 'archival' > >     characteristics as the series > > > >     Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published > >     series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of > >     considering a single principle in isolation. > > > >     I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer > to a > >     resolution as there will still be a split between those who > believe > >     we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the > RSWG to > >     tackle. > > > > > > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these > are > > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. > > > > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a > useful > > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested > ones. > > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" > encompasses them. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > >     Jay > > > >      > > >      > Cheers, > >      > S. > >      > > >      > -- > >      > Rfced-future mailing list > >      > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > >      > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >      > > > > >     -- > >     Jay Daley > >     IETF Executive Director > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > > > > From nobody Sun Nov 28 19:12:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AC63A0B02 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0SU6HvuiE8L for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B03E3A0AFE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id z26so19522063iod.10 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=c4M1VnXsRsAWZ1W4P0pdGiPlDoMS58ERLUBPP8f1FSM=; b=enfU96cuz+w+YCX6W5kKWrmejZTx46ZWjQQlj0VNIublZhrE1vcdjMb8zU6fuRJwQZ l43oaBqoTCfis+xHmXj09A6qjZgv9zFyGRw1zeKoiWau/A9qoHnosM+dYeExJ6oAPYbh G387R+7AzcuRTpBxROm48OzgkYpHcy5r8ONvmFwWnu04W/0GMYIdSdxL9OrmxKwWfnoI DYzWyv2Z+mW0FJY9Qt87qgcbbRkU+a+0u0ilMxpZi5EpZJ8AxgMjCTVPjLlvpjKdrCVO A1GwUEUx1A0YfGK/HUp1sEpItEgJMcSOpy5aFhYonmeEKyiS1DoGKKxBAA3KLjZjOQLk irxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=c4M1VnXsRsAWZ1W4P0pdGiPlDoMS58ERLUBPP8f1FSM=; b=emqYFlk9QQjoZQuvq59sHJjijeL2Eo0j6a4oqHWzLwVmOVDCGcZq2BOpMogsPeEtp1 yZ2WvYU0A/Figtz2c8a8sZbzNoW1f+dLo0ahuLVHPB62SMwPFvS+M0zhZtIqzNCPkmlB i+lgcu3heZWqZyEFJOP9r5xJtUmU8vkO37WR+BChH8KHsBs6jtx4J7/DOegOWtCx73OY SF2qHBKQu8XU2u2JLNR99Dt57DrjXKtBwh32L3ok2eLNJSNKWtS/55i0hLRYAGznqKkD Y9u8j+l5FadYNwTxqvRohLoPp73RgQKcinHODJh1rVjjbubxgoAbc+HoWeau1j2VITmV qfLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZHxDU3k1wMa12nx2GNffaajU940PA8GBleFZ/pyqu4lcJnEsM oo/bfJQuuslqkfO09cMBhGAI8QynY0+sbWHVjHJ6kyf2EyQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5W5wKbYlafVRHWQ5qbZ+kzIInQR8szH/a98ByUvG9Y5TsqNeDdYN/xVzo2TJS94rFaGTsA2gpFW/oJ/CcNVA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e07:: with SMTP id e7mr56795954iod.148.1638155567796; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:12:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b4b03c05d1e4d0f2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 03:12:55 -0000 --000000000000b4b03c05d1e4d0f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > The two you list are how and why we have outside long term repositories > maintaining copies of the series. In order to do so, there had to be a > form suitable for such storage. PDF/A with the included XML met that > requirement. > Thanks for the clarification, as it helps me understand what this text means. In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I guess it's sort of useful to have the RFCs backed up somewhere, but I don't think that is actually a really hard requirement: to the extent to which they continue to be relevant, I have high confidence that they will continue to be available somewhere (if only on archive.org) and to the extent to which they are not relevant, I'm not sure that I care that much. This is not to say that it's bad, but merely that if it turned out that it was in conflict with something else (say an RFC format that was more immediately useful in some other way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a blocker. -Ekr > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > 1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now an argument, when n= o > > one > > objected to it being definitional for the series before. > > > > > > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely > > rhetorical in the > > current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, now that > > it seems > > to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for change= s, > > I find it important to know what it means. > > > > So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreement to > abandon > > any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the current > > text that says "archival" > > > > > > 2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of the list > > would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are actually > > contested. (I do assume some is. I just don't know which ones.) > > > > > > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes once > > published" seems to > > be one such piece. > > > > I don't know what the following mean" > > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > > - Always available > > > > In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always > > available" that (say) ietf.org is not? > > > > I also don't really know what this means: > > > > > - Documented provenance > > > > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- > > or at least > > that the documentation is not itself archival. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Your, > > Joel > > > > On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: > > > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word > > > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > > > > > > > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing tho= se > > > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. = It > > > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen = as > > > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it > means, > > > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > > > > > > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but > one > > > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as > an > > > > important feature of the current series is maintained > (while > > > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such > major > > > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case > it > > > > makes those potential future changes harder. > > > > > > > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term > and > > > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it > used > > > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of > such > > > > "principles" have been made already and don't need > repetition > > > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not > yet > > > > been accepted by all:-) > > > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of R= FCs that > > I have > > > heard/understood to come under the general principle of > > 'archival': > > > > > > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence an= d > > > longevity as a structured, computer readable format > > > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested > this > > > mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that th= ey become > > =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 > > > documents) > > > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > > - Always available > > > - Assigned unique global references always available through > > those > > > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives > > > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the > > 'archive') > > > - Documented provenance > > > - Author and date stamped > > > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same > > 'archival' > > > characteristics as the series > > > > > > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'publish= ed > > > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the dange= r > of > > > considering a single principle in isolation. > > > > > > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us close= r > > to a > > > resolution as there will still be a split between those who > > believe > > > we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the > > RSWG to > > > tackle. > > > > > > > > > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of thes= e > > are > > > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. > > > > > > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is = a > > useful > > > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested > > ones. > > > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" > > encompasses them. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > S. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rfced-future mailing list > > > > Rfced-future@iab.org > > > > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jay Daley > > > IETF Executive Director > > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > --000000000000b4b03c05d1e4d0f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Th= e two you list are how and why we have outside long term repositories
maintaining copies of the series.=C2=A0 In order to do so, there had to be = a
form suitable for such storage.=C2=A0 PDF/A with the included XML met that =
requirement.


In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I guess i= t's sort of
somewhere (if onl= y on archive.org) and to the extent to w= hich they are not
relevant, I'm not sure that I care that muc= h.

This is not to say that it's bad, but merel= y that if it turned out that it was in
conflict with something el= se (say an RFC format that was more immediately
useful in some ot= her way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a blocker.

=
-Ekr


Yours,
Joel

On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01) I find it interesting that "archival" = is now an argument, when no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0objected to it being definitional for the series be= fore.
>
>
> Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely
> rhetorical in the
> current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, now = that
> it seems
> to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for chang= es,
> I find it important to know what it means.
>
> So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreeme= nt to abandon
> any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the curren= t
> text that says "archival"
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02) I can not comment on whether the "unconstes= ted" part of the list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be acceptable because I have no idea which pa= rts are actually
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contested.=C2=A0 (I do assume some is.=C2=A0 I just= don't know which ones.)
>
>
> Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes = once
> published" seems to
> be one such piece.
>
> I don't know what the following mean"
>
>=C2=A0 > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
>=C2=A0 > - Always available
>
> In what sense is rfc-editor.org <http://rfc-editor.org> "al= ways
> available" that (say) ietf.org <http://ietf.org> is not?
>
> I also don't really know what this means:
>
>=C2=A0 > - Documented provenance
>
> It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy --=
> or at least
> that the documentation is not itself archival.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Your,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley <= ;exec-director@= ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org= >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021, at 2:= 35 PM, Stephen Farrell
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <= mailto:steph= en.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hiya,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021 01:04,= Adam Roach wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> If the propertie= s are not clear, then writing the word
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"archival" into = a document is manifestly problematic,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I honestly disagree,= while at the same time believing those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with whom I'm di= sagreeing are being honest and up-front. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > seems to me that tho= se for whom use of that word is seen as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > problematic do have = the same understanding of what it means,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but just do not agre= e that it ought be used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > IOW, I don't thi= nk this is a matter of a definition, but one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where some of us are= trying to ensure what we think of as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > important feature of= the current series is maintained (while
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of course not preven= ting future consensus to make such major
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes) whereas oth= ers of prefer to not say that in case it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > makes those potentia= l future changes harder.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > More simply: my beli= ef is that we all understand the term and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > its consequences, bu= t some us of do/don't want to see it used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > here. In general, I = think the arguments for inclusion of such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "principles&quo= t; have been made already and don't need repetition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in this mail. I ackn= owledge that those arguments have not yet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > been accepted by all= :-)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here=E2=80=99s a list of a= ll of the specific properties of RFCs that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0heard/understood to come u= nder the general principle of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival':
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Canonical format chosen = for maximum device-independence and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longevity as a structured,= computer readable format
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Content never changes on= ce published (nobody has suggested this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean that revisions can=E2= =80=99t be published, only that they become
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=99new=E2=80=99
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documents)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Suitable for 'perman= ent' (i.e. WORM) storage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Always available
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Assigned unique global r= eferences always available through
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Proactively deposited wi= th multiple archives
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clearly identified and a= vailable as part of a set (the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archive')
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Documented provenance >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Author and date stamped<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available separ= ately and with much of the same
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival'
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristics as the ser= ies
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of these may sit bett= er under the principle of 'published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series' than 'arch= ival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considering a single princ= iple in isolation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I suspect though that defi= ning a list will not take us closer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolution as there will s= till be a split between those who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can agree such a list a= nd those who want that left to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tackle.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to m= e that some of these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them = are contested.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It might be useful to ask whether those who t= hink "archival" is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > word would be willing to replace it with the = list of uncontested
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Then we can avoid the argument about whether = "archival"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encompasses them.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > S.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FA= F17B172BEA.asc>--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future mailing= list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org" target=3D"_blank">Rfced-future@iab.o= rg>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>&g= t;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
--000000000000b4b03c05d1e4d0f2-- From nobody Sun Nov 28 20:37:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0733A0C74 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6ZixCoPnD9E for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2902A3A0C78 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id n26so15541325pff.3 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3Ccy3GcVFGKwX0nJN3m4u4iLeef2oZRNoxmQ7t0JA8g=; b=o/VhreMyciRN92l9tiP5323Z/IFets9CC1/AvFRW8y6uK4Nxs4spnhC7B+mL+CoBP8 E5WBWtpcCAMC51IdDAX3ePGGY07xpQXfGBSdF4zpCWv76bm2oL+02BpBXefE3M9QG5Yz cB9xsvDnZswFsAtcgq6PQzDfjtVjd40HpWwwFIP+S1hNL+thAl2RgIVQRcDCRLtYE749 zPnVm6nNo6Bh4z1Agk+/Xc1mX788lhIGqnb69cO/nbL6MgSm1gt3qA9BKYNMd5kRthf+ WtHnx0V485PIrGoNljFKS5/P7dZjarP2AMLPhvazIU8CtqNN7L6xPqZ7BDzZIWw4tHV7 IsMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3Ccy3GcVFGKwX0nJN3m4u4iLeef2oZRNoxmQ7t0JA8g=; b=Y8uc3xL5pQYH5mcoIhFprD1wELGVUlaDtKarksSb8r2WRVmACNBbmSGTVDsO718GfZ yFJE/xo+Ii9aje8TJnCoCzESYu3sm3NhnuG8rZ4miv6j+sw2AZ1XJof7heJ6kyycASDZ Z6lJ2xxgODiE1Cw5NlgtpIcWXZ5gzxrVv+jHMmbdnja5Te5UA6mGljMFHVK20Ha84xqj ORmA+f7/ZYAMGyIkSv9GDFU27deaucfJ94/A7qbE9im+Z1T2m6OvHqSbkkH81Nn43XwO vtFC3+jopmk0gt1GiFO2rbDTkXmNk/xnBkMM81ChX5nmwYZjhqgqWV6i2OhtsBtt6ZmW HAXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531kU/ieqyBkhlSD+8caRPUbr0aOs9j3jqsYT32ZMApa7yAS3g5R QNvlUqmuxBr0YIDQPDmhwCf9KoDDrIoNQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkrhfs2dj1rh9PXtJO1h4EVCycG94xY1sL1QjrDHYr+YC+HPz86cztK1hUy+YNcjPd05lTsw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:3e88:: with SMTP id l130mr31119073pga.266.1638160644103; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d10sm15067017pfl.139.2021.11.28.20.37.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 20:37:23 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0fbcbe67-d6ba-8d50-265e-a31662974635@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:37:18 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 04:37:31 -0000 On 29-Nov-21 16:12, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >=20 > The two you list are how and why we have outside long term reposito= ries > maintaining copies of the series.=C2=A0 In order to do so, there ha= d to be a > form suitable for such storage.=C2=A0 PDF/A with the included XML m= et that > requirement. >=20 >=20 > Thanks for the clarification, as it helps me understand what this text = means. >=20 > In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I guess it'= s sort of > useful to have the RFCs backed up somewhere, but I don't think that is > actually a really hard requirement: to the extent to which they continu= e > to be relevant, I have high confidence that they will continue to be av= ailable > somewhere (if only on archive.org ) and to the exte= nt to which they are not > relevant, I'm not sure that I care that much. >=20 > This is not to say that it's bad, but merely that if it turned out that=20 it was in > conflict with something else (say an RFC format that was more immediate= ly > useful in some other way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a blocker. I'm confused. How could it be a problem for somebody wanting to publish RFC8200 using the Revised Martian Gopher format that there's a copy in PDF/A format somewhere in the basement of the Bodleian Library at Oxford University? Also: >> - Documented provenance >> > >> > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather f= uzzy -- I think not. Both the RFC Editor service and the IETF Secretariat routine= ly respond to subpoenas with sworn provenance of RFCs and I-Ds, as I underst= and it. The one I thought might raise real debate was: >> - Metadata available separately and with much of the same >> 'archival' characteristics as the series Why? Because the IETF has *never* figured out a decent way to identify exactly which documents define a particular standard on a particular day.= At the moment, that is tied up with variable metadata such as "updated by= " and "obsoleted by". So I'd take this aspect out of Jay's list, because such metadata do change routinely. Brian >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern > > >> wrote= : > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01) I find it interesting that "archival" is n= ow an argument, when no > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0objected to it being definitional for the ser= ies before. > > > > > > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely= > > rhetorical in the > > current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, no= w that > > it seems > > to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for=20 changes, > > I find it important to know what it means. > > > > So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreement=20 to abandon > > any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the = current > > text that says "archival" > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02) I can not comment on whether the "unconste= sted" part of the list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be acceptable because I have no idea wh= ich parts are actually > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contested.=C2=A0 (I do assume some is.=C2=A0 = I just don't know which ones.) > > > > > > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes onc= e > > published" seems to > > be one such piece. > > > > I don't know what the following mean" > > > >=C2=A0 > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > >=C2=A0 > - Always available > > > > In what sense is rfc-editor.org > "always > > available" that (say) ietf.org > is not? > > > > I also don't really know what this means: > > > >=C2=A0 > - Documented provenance > > > > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fu= zzy -- > > or at least > > that the documentation is not itself archival. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Your, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley = > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021, at 2:= 35 PM, Stephen Farrell > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hiya, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021 01:04,=20 Adam Roach wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> If the properties a= re not clear, then writing the word > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"archival" into a docum= ent is manifestly problematic, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I honestly disagree,=20 while at the same time believing those > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with whom I'm disagr= eeing are being honest and up-front. It > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > seems to me that tho= se for whom use of that word is seen as > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > problematic do have = the same understanding of what it means, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but just do not agre= e that it ought be used. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > IOW, I don't think t= his is a matter of a definition, but one > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where some of us are=20 trying to ensure what we think of as an > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > important feature of=20 the current series is maintained (while > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of course not preven= ting future consensus to make such major > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes) whereas oth= ers of prefer to not say that in case it > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > makes those potentia= l future changes harder. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > More simply: my beli= ef is that we all understand the term and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > its consequences, bu= t some us of do/don't want to see it used > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > here. In general, I = think the arguments for inclusion of such > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "principles" have be= en made already and don't need repetition > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in this mail. I ackn= owledge that those arguments have not yet > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > been accepted by all= :-) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here=E2=80=99s a list o= f all of the specific properties of RFCs that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0heard/understood to com= e under the general principle of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival': > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Canonical format chos= en for maximum device-independence and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longevity as a structur= ed, computer readable format > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Content never changes=20 once published (nobody has suggested this > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean that revisions can= =E2=80=99t be published, only that they become > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documents) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Suitable for 'permane= nt' (i.e. WORM) storage > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Always available > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Assigned unique globa= l references always available through > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Proactively deposited=20 with multiple archives > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clearly identified an= d available as part of a set (the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archive') > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Documented provenance= > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Author and date stamp= ed > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available se= parately and with much of the same > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival' > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristics as the = series > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of these may sit b= etter under the principle of 'published > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series' than 'archival'= , which perhaps illustrates the danger of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considering a single pr= inciple in isolation. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I suspect though that d= efining a list will not take us closer > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolution as there wil= l still be a split between those who > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can agree such a lis= t and those who want that left to the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG to > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tackle. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for providing this list. It seems t= o me that some of these > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > trivial and unobjectionable and some of th= em are contested. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It might be useful to ask whether those wh= o think "archival" is a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > word would be willing to replace it with t= he list of uncontested > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Then we can avoid the argument about wheth= er "archival" > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encompasses them. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > S. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future mailing=20 list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org=20 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >= > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/= mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director= > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > exec-director@ietf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Nov 28 21:28:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7542E3A0CB7 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HnQniftSkG5Z for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FD373A0CB6 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE52436DCF8; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSKoOPlsxyGR; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB616436DCF7; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:28:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A6028818-402F-44CB-9080-21D631456C41 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:28:22 +1300 Message-Id: <47A66FD5-71FF-4BAC-AC96-F9F450A73A99@ietf.org> References: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: iPad Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail-A6028818-402F-44CB-9080-21D631456C41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 29/11/2021, at 4:02 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >> I don't know what the following mean" >=20 > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > - Always available >=20 > In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always available" that (say) ietf.org is n= ot? This should be seen in the full context of all the sites that make RFCs avai= lable, which is one of the reasons for proactive deposit. =E2=80=98Always a= vailable=E2=80=99 via things such as DOIs does rely on the rfc-editor.org th= ough.=20 >=20 > I also don't really know what this means: >=20 > > - Documented provenance >=20 > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- or a= t least > that the documentation is not itself archival. In practice a lot of effort is put in to make that documentation archival wi= th the publication of: - proceedings of all IETF meetings=20 - mailing lists archives - all revisions of all I-Ds - jabber messages=20 - IESG actions Clearly, the =E2=80=98documented provenance=E2=80=99 and the =E2=80=98canoni= cal format=E2=80=99 properties have strengthened over time.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >>=20 >> Your, >> Joel >>=20 >> On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > > wrote: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell >> > > wrot= e: >> > > >> > > >> > > Hiya, >> > > >> > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: >> > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word >> > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, >> > > >> > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those >> > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It >> > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as >> > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, >> > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. >> > > >> > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one >> > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an >> > > important feature of the current series is maintained (while >> > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major >> > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it >> > > makes those potential future changes harder. >> > > >> > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and >> > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used >> > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such >> > > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition >> > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet >> > > been accepted by all:-) >> >=20 >> > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs tha= t I have >> > heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival':= >> >=20 >> > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and >> > longevity as a structured, computer readable format >> > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this >> > mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they beco= me =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 >> > documents) >> >=20 >> > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage >> > - Always available >> > - Assigned unique global references always available through those >> > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives >> > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive')= >> > - Documented provenance >> > - Author and date stamped >> > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archival= ' >> > characteristics as the series >> >=20 >> > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published >> > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of >> > considering a single principle in isolation. >> >=20 >> > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a >> > resolution as there will still be a split between those who believe= >> > we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG t= o >> > tackle. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are=20= >> > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. >> >=20 >> > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a usefu= l=20 >> > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones.=20= >> > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses the= m. >> >=20 >> > -Ekr >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Jay >> >=20 >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > S. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Rfced-future mailing list >> > > Rfced-future@iab.org >> > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > >> >=20 >> > --=20 >> > Jay Daley >> > IETF Executive Director >> > exec-director@ietf.org >> >=20 >> >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail-A6028818-402F-44CB-9080-21D631456C41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 29/11/2021, at 4:02 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:<= br>

I don't know what the following mean"
<= div>
> - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
&g= t; - Always available

In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always available" that (say) ietf.org is not?

This should be seen in the full context of all the si= tes that make RFCs available, which is one of the reasons for proactive depo= sit.  =E2=80=98Always available=E2=80=99 via things such as DOIs does r= ely on the rfc-editor.org though. 

I a= lso don't really know what this means:

> - Docum= ented provenance

It seems to me that the provenance= of our documents is rather fuzzy -- or at least
that the document= ation is not itself archival.

<= /div>In practice a lot of effort is put in to make that documentation archiv= al with the publication of:
- proceedings of all IETF meetings 
- mailing lists archives
- all revisions of all I-Ds
<= div>- jabber messages 
- IESG actions

= Clearly, the =E2=80=98documented provenance=E2=80=99 and the =E2=80=98canoni= cal format=E2=80=99 properties have strengthened over time. 
=
Jay

-- 
J= ay Daley
IETF Executive Director 
exec-director@ietf.org<= /div>


-Ekr

=

Your,
Joel

On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org
> <mailto:= exec-director@ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>      > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell
= >     <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>= > wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > Hiya,
>      >
>      > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote:
>      >> If the properties are not clear, then writ= ing the word
>     "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic= ,
>      >
>      > I honestly disagree, while at the same time be= lieving those
>      > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and= up-front. It
>      > seems to me that those for whom use of that wo= rd is seen as
>      > problematic do have the same understanding of w= hat it means,
>      > but just do not agree that it ought be used. >      >
>      > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a defin= ition, but one
>      > where some of us are trying to ensure what we t= hink of as an
>      > important feature of the current series is mai= ntained (while
>      > of course not preventing future consensus to m= ake such major
>      > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say t= hat in case it
>      > makes those potential future changes harder. >      >
>      > More simply: my belief is that we all understa= nd the term and
>      > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want= to see it used
>      > here. In general, I think the arguments for in= clusion of such
>      > "principles" have been made already and don't n= eed repetition
>      > in this mail. I acknowledge that those argumen= ts have not yet
>      > been accepted by all:-)
>
>     Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific propert= ies of RFCs that I have
>     heard/understood to come under the general principle= of 'archival':
>
>     - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-indepen= dence and
>     longevity as a structured, computer readable format<= br> >     - Content never changes once published (nobody has s= uggested this
>     mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only= that they become =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99
>     documents)
>
>     - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
>     - Always available
>     - Assigned unique global references always available= through those
>     - Proactively deposited with multiple archives
>     - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (= the 'archive')
>     - Documented provenance
>     - Author and date stamped
>     - Metadata available separately and with much of the= same 'archival'
>     characteristics as the series
>
>     Some of these may sit better under the principle of '= published
>     series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates t= he danger of
>     considering a single principle in isolation.
>
>     I suspect though that defining a list will not take u= s closer to a
>     resolution as there will still be a split between th= ose who believe
>     we can agree such a list and those who want that lef= t to the RSWG to
>     tackle.
>
>
> Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are <= br> > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested.
>
> It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a usefu= l
> word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones. <= br> > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses the= m.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>     Jay
>
>      >
>      > Cheers,
>      > S.
>      >
>      > <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
>      > Rfced-future mailing list
>      > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>      > https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future
>     <https://www.iab.org/mailm= an/listinfo/rfced-future>
>
>     --
>     Jay Daley
>     IETF Executive Director
>     exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>
>
--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-fu= ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu= re
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Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYCPR01CA0022.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:405::34) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [133.2.210.39] (133.2.210.39) by TYCPR01CA0022.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:405::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.22 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 06:13:36 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 88e67cee-d863-455a-55a4-08d9b2ff60e8 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYAPR01MB2830: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 7PQMyxJVV+oZQM05mWv590y7ndhwubOfBoT2/maytKfWxeJcvzrwfp4KkJO0pKBUvqt4d0HeAaIjmMhPDqCYNw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYAPR01MB2830 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 06:13:50 -0000 Hello Peter, others, On 2021-11-29 02:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/23/21 7:59 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >> OLD: >>     The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival >>     series dedicated to documenting Internet technical >>     specifications, including general contributions from the >>     Internet research and engineering community as well as >>     standards documents. >> >> NEW: >>     The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival >>     series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution >>     and administration of Internet resources, including >>     standards documents, general contributions from the >>     Internet research and engineering community, and related >>     commentary. > > Hi John, thanks for the suggested text. > > With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original > but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does > much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one > aspect of how the documents are handled. > > Also, series of what? Documents, clearly. > > Taking into account comments from Mark and Ekr, I suggest: > > NEWER: >       The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is a series of documents >       regarding the technical evolution and administration of the >       Internet, including standards documents, general contributions >       from the Internet research and engineering community, and related >       commentary. > > Changing "the" to "a" might be considered controversial, but I perceive > a touch of hubris in asserting that no other documents address these > matters. I think the the/a choice and "archival" are quite connected. We seem to try to interpret "archival" mostly in absolute terms. But it's actually possible (and probably more productive) to see it in relative terms. The way I understand it, and would explain it to an outsider, is that whatever is considered to be of (reasonably) long term value is made into an RFC. So RFCs are *the* archival series, whereas other stuff (IDs, meeting proceedings, mail archives, ...) are the "other" non-archival stuff, which are mostly transitory. Of course, even such (relatively) archival stuff can get obsolete (as Ekr has explained) or even lost (not yet, fortunately, for RFCs), and some of the other ("ephemeral"?) stuff can occasionally become important (e.g. subpoenas for patent cases,...). Taken in this respect, I hope nobody disagrees. I'm not sure how we can make this clear in the text. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Nov 29 05:27:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F283A096C for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:27:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8cSev_b5YsEr for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2180B3A0985 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id b187so10300696iof.11 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:26:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mIZdIteVDeOsc6oq/HQJHFhzx1ylZZWGRFwmNQhjLqg=; b=DX3ip6DVv3WMq4nPI0uK6i//99XvPf5I4ySKjzMGMCxFNCfozFzVLDoz8BM/r+7szi D2DXTgiFBmQBdidtR3CJgG5xso9TyDOkjToNn67RXHYkXEL/KmMThTYmDNYev00nvxPM KT9bcGIFr49oGYzF0YTcbLeVvGI4VBogC8ie4SCYvnJJH7q6ekPRHYEfBLyar9191qa7 tQA2qUvgRt+13c3+dKGDaC7nVyEyd7YsObXb6GAfvcwr9yu8EAayPFWesRLs7p1HFP0I At9OJD7XQ7xE/ZsP2Fk9RJDcvQG5VtXlzrDl1gPb3gCrlM045vGC3iEfLHIG31zc1u9W 2CXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mIZdIteVDeOsc6oq/HQJHFhzx1ylZZWGRFwmNQhjLqg=; b=CNv0NZNeprZs6aE60iVkQecdu23o16ZVAhcJ+LmUfVwW8mtekrNj4MjRROpSwUD/Io xRCWJevXeg4mT6DucUywLpB1uPuHomLgQ3q2lYr3Zsi6XG4DifqqS6oO0xC2gUfTkCx5 ULprVGPjVLTArrEMqOnd5qRjMNbtH99qWjRKS5BKircpTzkIQWEnO8cPMzgt2XLk7bAp aMsVUAiSn/TpizYdUnmhS560uUhkY6NdJT+354r83/aSAG6Y0/Je+ZVno5n6nhH7wfDj xW8LUQjXDBHcKQuS/rVfg5XqaeVfNZRvVkbWCgoTB+lVPxFTIt194V7xHmoa+74sW2j5 dUDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Rkpz0vk/zZZtLIxTUY1l6wTIAD5yBR34YqgK6ap704FN0iTl0 vmkc24g5xF0PeBSDNyBftfqpXQa7PjsN4sRfcStQaA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKvRwP3php13oaEpl/AqH1zIcsJBwAbT8Z1NWfBUdtGvPXfftmKJf/Rh5S2x4fKP2jdaHoNcL98p+mqvTtjz0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:190f:: with SMTP id p15mr67433069jal.82.1638192414339; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:26:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> <0fbcbe67-d6ba-8d50-265e-a31662974635@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0fbcbe67-d6ba-8d50-265e-a31662974635@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:26:18 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee48f305d1ed6437" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:27:02 -0000 --000000000000ee48f305d1ed6437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:37 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 29-Nov-21 16:12, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > The two you list are how and why we have outside long term > repositories > > maintaining copies of the series. In order to do so, there had to > be a > > form suitable for such storage. PDF/A with the included XML met th= at > > requirement. > > > > > > Thanks for the clarification, as it helps me understand what this text > means. > > > > In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I guess it'= s > sort of > > useful to have the RFCs backed up somewhere, but I don't think that is > > actually a really hard requirement: to the extent to which they continu= e > > to be relevant, I have high confidence that they will continue to be > available > > somewhere (if only on archive.org ) and to the > extent to which they are not > > relevant, I'm not sure that I care that much. > > > > This is not to say that it's bad, but merely that if it turned out that > it was in > > conflict with something else (say an RFC format that was more immediate= ly > > useful in some other way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a blocker. > > I'm confused. How could it be a problem for somebody wanting to publish > RFC8200 using the Revised Martian Gopher format that there's a copy in > PDF/A format somewhere in the basement of the Bodleian Library at > Oxford University? > The concern would be an objection to publishing RFC 10000 in the Revised Martian Gopher format on the grounds that it was not readily convertible to PDF/A. > > >> - Documented provenance > >> > > >> > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather > fuzzy -- > > I think not. Both the RFC Editor service and the IETF Secretariat routine= ly > respond to subpoenas with sworn provenance of RFCs and I-Ds, as I > understand > it. > But all of that is ephemera. If we're only concerned about these properties applying as long as the IETF Secretariat continues to exist, the problem is much easier. But presumably you want the provenance of these documents to be verifiable beyond that (FWIW, I don't think that's very important, but, I'm trying to scope out the requirements others seem to have). -Ekr > The one I thought might raise real debate was: > > >> - Metadata available separately and with much of the same > >> 'archival' characteristics as the series > > Why? Because the IETF has *never* figured out a decent way to identify > exactly which documents define a particular standard on a particular day. > At the moment, that is tied up with variable metadata such as "updated by= " > and "obsoleted by". So I'd take this aspect out of Jay's list, because > such metadata do change routinely. > > Brian > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com > > > >> wrote= : > > > > > > 1) I find it interesting that "archival" is now an argument, > when no > > > one > > > objected to it being definitional for the series before. > > > > > > > > > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I found it to be largely > > > rhetorical in the > > > current text, and so didn't really object that much. However, no= w > that > > > it seems > > > to be attached to text about a heightened degree of scrutiny for > changes, > > > I find it important to know what it means. > > > > > > So, I don't think it's that interesting, and if we had agreement > to abandon > > > any text about heightened scrutiny, I would be fine to have the > current > > > text that says "archival" > > > > > > > > > 2) I can not comment on whether the "unconstested" part of > the list > > > would be acceptable because I have no idea which parts are > actually > > > contested. (I do assume some is. I just don't know which > ones.) > > > > > > > > > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Content never changes onc= e > > > published" seems to > > > be one such piece. > > > > > > I don't know what the following mean" > > > > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > > > - Always available > > > > > > In what sense is rfc-editor.org < > http://rfc-editor.org > "always > > > available" that (say) ietf.org > is not? > > > > > > I also don't really know what this means: > > > > > > > - Documented provenance > > > > > > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather > fuzzy -- > > > or at least > > > that the documentation is not itself archival. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > Your, > > > Joel > > > > > > On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley < > exec-director@ietf.org > > > >> > > > > exec-director@ietf.org> exec-director@ietf.org>>>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > > > > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>> > > > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> > > > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > > > > > > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, > Adam Roach wrote: > > > > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the > word > > > > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > > > > > > > > > > I honestly disagree, > while at the same time believing those > > > > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and > up-front. It > > > > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word i= s > seen as > > > > > problematic do have the same understanding of what > it means, > > > > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > > > > > > > > > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a > definition, but one > > > > > where some of us are > trying to ensure what we think of as an > > > > > important feature of > the current series is maintained (while > > > > > of course not preventing future consensus to make > such major > > > > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that > in case it > > > > > makes those potential future changes harder. > > > > > > > > > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand > the term and > > > > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to > see it used > > > > > here. In general, I think the arguments for > inclusion of such > > > > > "principles" have been made already and don't need > repetition > > > > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments > have not yet > > > > > been accepted by all:-) > > > > > > > > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properti= es of > RFCs that > > > I have > > > > heard/understood to come under the general principle = of > > > 'archival': > > > > > > > > - Canonical format chosen for maximum > device-independence and > > > > longevity as a structured, computer readable format > > > > - Content never changes > once published (nobody has suggested this > > > > mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only = that they > become > > > =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 > > > > documents) > > > > > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > > > - Always available > > > > - Assigned unique global references always available > through > > > those > > > > - Proactively deposited > with multiple archives > > > > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set > (the > > > 'archive') > > > > - Documented provenance > > > > - Author and date stamped > > > > - Metadata available separately and with much of the > same > > > 'archival' > > > > characteristics as the series > > > > > > > > Some of these may sit better under the principle of > 'published > > > > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates th= e > danger of > > > > considering a single principle in isolation. > > > > > > > > I suspect though that defining a list will not take u= s > closer > > > to a > > > > resolution as there will still be a split between > those who > > > believe > > > > we can agree such a list and those who want that left > to the > > > RSWG to > > > > tackle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some > of these > > > are > > > > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are conteste= d. > > > > > > > > It might be useful to ask whether those who think > "archival" is a > > > useful > > > > word would be willing to replace it with the list of > uncontested > > > ones. > > > > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" > > > encompasses them. > > > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > S. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Rfced-future mailing > list > > > > > Rfced-future@iab.org > Rfced-future@iab.org>> > > > > >> > > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = < > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future> > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>> > > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future> > > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jay Daley > > > > IETF Executive Director > > > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --000000000000ee48f305d1ed6437 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:37 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29-Nov-21 16:12, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com= >> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The two you list are how and why we have outside lo= ng term repositories
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maintaining copies of the series.=C2=A0 In order to= do so, there had to be a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0form suitable for such storage.=C2=A0 PDF/A with th= e included XML met that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirement.
>
>
> Thanks for the clarification, as it helps me understand what this text= means.
>
> In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I gues= s it's sort of
> useful to have the RFCs backed up somewhere, but I don't think tha= t is
> actually a really hard requirement: to the extent to which they contin= ue
> to be relevant, I have high confidence that they will continue to be a= vailable
> somewhere (if only on archive.org <http://archive.org>) and to the ex= tent to which they are not
> relevant, I'm not sure that I care that much.
>
> This is not to say that it's bad, but merely that if it turned out= that
it was in
> conflict with something else (say an RFC format that was more immediat= ely
> useful in some other way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a block= er.

I'm confused. How could it be a problem for somebody wanting to publish=
RFC8200 using the Revised Martian Gopher format that there's a copy in<= br> PDF/A format somewhere in the basement of the Bodleian Library at
Oxford University?

The concern would be= an objection to publishing RFC 10000 in the Revised Martian
Goph= er format on the grounds that it was not readily convertible to PDF/A.
<= /div>

=C2=A0

>> - Documented provenance
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It seems to me that the provenance of our= documents is rather fuzzy --

I think not. Both the RFC Editor service and the IETF Secretariat routinely=
respond to subpoenas with sworn provenance of RFCs and I-Ds, as I understan= d
it.

But all of that is ephemera.
<= div>
If we're only concerned about these properties apply= ing as long as the IETF Secretariat
continues to exist, the probl= em is much easier. But presumably you want the provenance
of thes= e documents to be verifiable beyond that (FWIW, I don't think that'= s very
important, but, I'm trying to scope out the requiremen= ts others seem to have).

-Ekr


The one I thought might raise real debate was:

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available separately and with much o= f the same
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'archival'=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characte= ristics as the series

Why? Because the IETF has *never* figured out a decent way to identify
exactly which documents define a particular standard on a particular day. At the moment, that is tied up with variable metadata such as "updated= by"
and "obsoleted by". So I'd take this aspect out of Jay's = list, because
such metadata do change routinely.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Halpe= rn <jmh@joelhal= pern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>>= wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01) I find it interesting t= hat "archival" is now an argument, when no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0objected to it being defin= itional for the series before.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I fou= nd it to be largely
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > rhetorical in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > current text, and so didn't really object= that much. However, now that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it seems
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to be attached to text about a heightened deg= ree of scrutiny for
changes,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I find it important to know what it means. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So, I don't think it's that interesti= ng, and if we had agreement
to abandon
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > any text about heightened scrutiny, I would b= e fine to have the current
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > text that says "archival"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02) I can not comment on wh= ether the "unconstested" part of the list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be acceptable becaus= e I have no idea which parts are actually
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contested.=C2=A0 (I do ass= ume some is.=C2=A0 I just don't know which ones.)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, as I've noted a number of times &qu= ot;Content never changes once
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > published" seems to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > be one such piece.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I don't know what the following mean"= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Suitable for 'permanent'= (i.e. WORM) storage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Always available
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In what sense is rfc-editor.org <http://rfc-= editor.org> <http://rfc-editor.org <http://rfc-editor.org>&= gt; "always
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > available" that (say) ietf.org <http://ietf.org&g= t; <htt= p://ietf.org <http://ietf.org>> is not?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I also don't really know what this means:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Documented provenance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It seems to me that the provenance of our doc= uments is rather fuzzy --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > or at least
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that the documentation is not itself archival= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Your,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eri= c Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021= at 6:08 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <= ;mailto:exec-di= rector@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org= <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org> <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org= >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&= lt;stephen.f= arrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd= .ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Hiya,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > On 29/11/2021 01:04,
Adam Roach wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&= quot;archival" into a document is manifestly problematic,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > I honestly disagree,
while at the same time believing those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > but just do not agree that it ought be used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > where some of us are
trying to ensure what we think of as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > important feature of
the current series is maintained (while
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > makes those potential future changes harder.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > "principles" have been made already and don't need repet= ition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > been accepted by all:-)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H= ere=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= eard/understood to come under the general principle of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival':
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0l= ongevity as a structured, computer readable format
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Content never changes
once published (nobody has suggested this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0m= ean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they become
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=99new=E2=80=99
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d= ocuments)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Always available
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Assigned unique global references always available through
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Proactively deposited
with multiple archives
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archive')
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Documented provenance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Author and date stamped
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= Metadata available separately and with much of the same
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival'
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c= haracteristics as the series
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S= ome of these may sit better under the principle of 'published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0s= eries' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c= onsidering a single principle in isolation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I= suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r= esolution as there will still be a split between those who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0w= e can agree such a list and those who want that left to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t= ackle.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for providing= this list. It seems to me that some of these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > trivial and unobject= ionable and some of them are contested.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It might be useful t= o ask whether those who think "archival" is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > word would be willin= g to replace it with the list of uncontested
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Then we can avoid th= e argument about whether "archival"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encompasses them.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J= ay
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > S.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Rfced-future mailing
list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Rfced-future= @iab.org
<mailto:Rfced-= future@iab.org> <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mai= lto:Rfced-future@= iab.org> <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-fut= ure <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rf= ced-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&= lt;https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futur= e <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfce= d-future>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future>>><= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J= ay Daley
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I= ETF Executive Director
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > exec-director@ietf.org <mail= to:exec-directo= r@ietf.org> <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <= ;mailto:exec-di= rector@ietf.org> <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>&g= t;>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
>

--000000000000ee48f305d1ed6437-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 05:28:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308DE3A0942 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6EafvmMSECIA for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32C193A0966 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id m9so21540436iop.0 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=boU7Kg52RnHgqS5XnhtnEny90tUiyhzrCpQb31qw4Nk=; b=tz3U7GszKIt7WXN3HXuf1+T/sgHNT+crhVZmuhUvBa9R3bzgnZAKTgfO3dE/azcETm FYlV2hdxkQxykDmeBhaW/ITcy4GaJHjN4VD8PQzL1ghjU2QYrVvQ38TSzHcxkkTePCEH TZu2actx9waORGR1h/kBi1v+hpy7BRm9n06/TZ92N/7yQGUqxAGvEZTzVtamyJ5VlGp4 qEnSgsUDKHmVvcJr4iNWWutwwwmTX8UuSkC4723kxzA5hELqopo/aJhXmN+7B8+cPdB4 K9K/k4O6d5bI9MULahSWUQxPQSyxFGlnsisy8HVm5s/HJq+aW9D3YVFrXtdHYsMD4yYw cfGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=boU7Kg52RnHgqS5XnhtnEny90tUiyhzrCpQb31qw4Nk=; b=4dbdXm2gV/eHl/KFNlVJHvOmZp2QFWFmNqAV7mvoK6TEUGVnm+8MX2kIXwne6SCiVj 1ae4QgamDWRsafGfdCG6yxhOVteMmQpZO2GExJi1Imm/34ZWaBrl3uQRQQ19t/XG6FfI zmuSo57IxmlMb14BQ+9TOBh8WoDKm45GVMfVIrx0rGBwebLjD3xaiiV9dlMbgXLkJLpN Bm3e+QMqwZQEiqYxmsRwkQzuJJ8sXakJRbXaipr8Mcb502TIbYYQpQh657PA5XKP0L7j Em8Ufl0mRK0el2z2oGA+KigiNGVd1BWoFStR38mKNF7tOblBsx28jnsr908krSU/1f8W QgiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nrQtPIaljO2JnAsKrCLaCiA9SveNrqi69zvezsMo0sUv0Wi9X 7Or8ZoVwVDMqtHP5eD1vVOpzU7wPQbm8JopqNGqzVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr14OKzr3lCOJpU/3hwmNDUv2Qymww3Dk6VEusrd7xTTR3IN/Ko37THYTsrK0fBVvj+NUV0EDSWtqEi2PearA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:130f:: with SMTP id r15mr68450257jad.19.1638192480076; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:28:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <47A66FD5-71FF-4BAC-AC96-F9F450A73A99@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <47A66FD5-71FF-4BAC-AC96-F9F450A73A99@ietf.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:27:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9610105d1ed68c1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:28:06 -0000 --000000000000d9610105d1ed68c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 9:28 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 29/11/2021, at 4:02 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > I don't know what the following mean" > > > > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > > - Always available > > In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always available" that (say) ietf.org is > not? > > > This should be seen in the full context of all the sites that make RFCs > available, which is one of the reasons for proactive deposit. =E2=80=98A= lways > available=E2=80=99 via things such as DOIs does rely on the rfc-editor.or= g > though. > > > I also don't really know what this means: > > > - Documented provenance > > It seems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- or > at least > that the documentation is not itself archival. > > > In practice a lot of effort is put in to make that documentation archival > with the publication of: > - proceedings of all IETF meetings > - mailing lists archives > - all revisions of all I-Ds > - jabber messages > - IESG actions > As I indicated to Brian, all of that information is ephemera from the perspective of the RFC Series. -Ekr > Clearly, the =E2=80=98documented provenance=E2=80=99 and the =E2=80=98can= onical format=E2=80=99 properties > have strengthened over time. > > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > > -Ekr > > >> Your, >> Joel >> >> On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > Hiya, >> > > >> > > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote: >> > >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word >> > "archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, >> > > >> > > I honestly disagree, while at the same time believing those >> > > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It >> > > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as >> > > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, >> > > but just do not agree that it ought be used. >> > > >> > > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one >> > > where some of us are trying to ensure what we think of as an >> > > important feature of the current series is maintained (while >> > > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major >> > > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it >> > > makes those potential future changes harder. >> > > >> > > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and >> > > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used >> > > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such >> > > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition >> > > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet >> > > been accepted by all:-) >> > >> > Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs th= at I have >> > heard/understood to come under the general principle of 'archival'= : >> > >> > - Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and >> > longevity as a structured, computer readable format >> > - Content never changes once published (nobody has suggested this >> > mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they bec= ome =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 >> > documents) >> > >> > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage >> > - Always available >> > - Assigned unique global references always available through those >> > - Proactively deposited with multiple archives >> > - Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the 'archive'= ) >> > - Documented provenance >> > - Author and date stamped >> > - Metadata available separately and with much of the same 'archiva= l' >> > characteristics as the series >> > >> > Some of these may sit better under the principle of 'published >> > series' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of >> > considering a single principle in isolation. >> > >> > I suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer to a >> > resolution as there will still be a split between those who believ= e >> > we can agree such a list and those who want that left to the RSWG = to >> > tackle. >> > >> > >> > Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are >> > trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested. >> > >> > It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival" is a >> useful >> > word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones. >> > Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" encompasses >> them. >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> > >> > Jay >> > >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > S. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Rfced-future mailing list >> > > Rfced-future@iab.org >> > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Jay Daley >> > IETF Executive Director >> > exec-director@ietf.org >> > >> > >> > -- > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > --000000000000d9610105d1ed68c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 9:28 PM Jay D= aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:



I don&#= 39;t know what the following mean"

>= ; - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage
> - Always a= vailable

In what sense is rfc-editor.org "always available"= that (say) ietf.org is n= ot?

This should be s= een in the full context of all the sites that make RFCs available, which is= one of the reasons for proactive deposit. =C2=A0=E2=80=98Always available= =E2=80=99 via things such as DOIs does rely on the rfc-editor.org though.=C2=A0

I also don't really know what this means:

> - Documented provenance

It s= eems to me that the provenance of our documents is rather fuzzy -- or at le= ast
that the documentation is not itself archival.

In practice a lot of effort is put in = to make that documentation archival with the publication of:
- proceedi= ngs of all IETF meetings=C2=A0
- mailing lists archives
- all revisions of all I-Ds
- jabber messages=C2=A0
- = IESG actions

As I indicated= to Brian, all of that information is ephemera from the perspective of the<= /div>
RFC Series.

-Ekr

<= div>
Clearly, the =E2=80=98documented provenance=E2=80=99 and= the =E2=80=98canonical format=E2=80=99 properties have strengthened over t= ime.=C2=A0

Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director=C2=A0


-Ekr<= /div>


Your,
Joel

On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org
> <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie <mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&= gt;> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hiya,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 29/11/2021 01:04, Adam Roach wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> If the properties are not clear, then wri= ting the word
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"archival" into a document is manifestly = problematic,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I honestly disagree, while at the same time b= elieving those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with whom I'm disagreeing are being hones= t and up-front. It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > seems to me that those for whom use of that w= ord is seen as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > problematic do have the same understanding of= what it means,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but just do not agree that it ought be used.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a = definition, but one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > where some of us are trying to ensure what we= think of as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > important feature of the current series is ma= intained (while
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of course not preventing future consensus to = make such major
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say = that in case it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > makes those potential future changes harder.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > More simply: my belief is that we all underst= and the term and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > its consequences, but some us of do/don't= want to see it used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > here. In general, I think the arguments for i= nclusion of such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "principles" have been made already= and don't need repetition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in this mail. I acknowledge that those argume= nts have not yet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > been accepted by all:-)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific proper= ties of RFCs that I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0heard/understood to come under the general principl= e of 'archival':
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Canonical format chosen for maximum device-indepe= ndence and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0longevity as a structured, computer readable format=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Content never changes once published (nobody has = suggested this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, onl= y that they become =E2=80=99new=E2=80=99
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documents)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) stor= age
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Always available
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Assigned unique global references always availabl= e through those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Proactively deposited with multiple archives
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clearly identified and available as part of a set= (the 'archive')
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Documented provenance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Author and date stamped
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available separately and with much of th= e same 'archival'
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristics as the series
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of these may sit better under the principle of= 'published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0series' than 'archival', which perhaps = illustrates the danger of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considering a single principle in isolation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I suspect though that defining a list will not take= us closer to a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0resolution as there will still be a split between t= hose who believe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can agree such a list and those who want that le= ft to the RSWG to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tackle.
>
>
> Thanks for providing this list. It seems to me that some of these are =
> trivial and unobjectionable and some of them are contested.
>
> It might be useful to ask whether those who think "archival"= is a useful
> word would be willing to replace it with the list of uncontested ones.=
> Then we can avoid the argument about whether "archival" enco= mpasses them.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > S.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Rfced-future@iab.org <mailto:Rfced-future@iab.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iab.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.iab.org/mai= lman/listinfo/rfced-future>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exec-director@ietf.org <mailto:exec-director@ietf.org>
>
>
--
Rfced-future mailing list
Rfced-future@iab.org=
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future=
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Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:58:26 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Adam Roach CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document Thread-Index: AQHX4N9YC5Yr+5jzakmHooFs2ZybXqwZj4gAgAABVICAAAiLAIAAGOMAgAABX4CAAASAgIAAU/sAgACVPAA= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:58:26 +0000 Message-ID: <6728854B-3ABE-411C-A91E-32FB0064E51A@akamai.com> References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21111400 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4D174E4831759A4C8EAAE4B93D624D33@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-29_06:2021-11-28, 2021-11-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=698 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111290074 X-Proofpoint-GUID: r9r9H5CHKtulAgITyrQnAaZBzoIfaz8C X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: r9r9H5CHKtulAgITyrQnAaZBzoIfaz8C X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-29_08,2021-11-28_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=677 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111290074 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:58:37 -0000 DQo+ICAgIFRoZXJlIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBtdWx0aXBsZSBvY2N1cnJlbmNlcyBvbiB0aGlzIHZlcnkg bGlzdCBvZiBwZW9wbGUgc2F5aW5nIA0KICAgIHNvbWV0aGluZyBhbG9uZyB0aGUgbGluZXMgb2Yg IlRoaXMgYXNzZXJ0aW9uIHRoYXQgSSBtYWtlIG5vdyBpcyANCiAgICBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBJ LCBhcyBhIGxvbmcgdGltZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudCwga25vdyB0byBiZSB0cnVlLCBhbmQgdG8gDQog ICAgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgYmVlbiB0cnVlLiBPdGhlcnMgd2hvIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBkb2luZyB0aGlz IGZvciBhcyBsb25nIGFzIEkgDQogICAgaGF2ZSB3aWxsIHN1cmVseSBhZ3JlZS4gSSByZWdyZXQg dGhhdCB3ZSBkaWRuJ3Qgd3JpdGUgaXQgZG93biBpbiBSRkMgDQogICAgezU2MjAsNjYzNSxldGN9 LCBidXQgd2UgY2xlYXJseSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZS4iDQoNCj4gICAgTGV0J3MgZW5kIHRoaXMgY3lj bGUgb2YgcmVncmV0dGluZyB0aGF0IHdlIGRpZG4ndCB3cml0ZSBpdCBkb3duLg0KDQo+ICAgIElm IHRoZSBwcm9wZXJ0aWVzIGFyZSBjbGVhciwgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGVhc3kgd3JpdGUgdGhlbSBk b3duIGJvdGggZm9yIA0KICAgIHRoZSBlZGlmaWNhdGlvbiBvZiBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGFyZW4ndCB5 b3UsIGFuZCBmb3IgdGhlIGFiaWxpdHkgdG8gDQogICAgcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRob3NlIHByb3BlcnRp ZXMgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4NCg0KVHJ1bHkgZXhjZWxsZW50IHBvaW50cy4gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSEN Cg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Nov 29 09:01:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF673A0C55 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qMi1PElI31Rq for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC1A23A0C3E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mrk1a-000MfC-5o; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:01:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:01:00 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Peter Saint-Andre cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <94AE941E5333E2CB1586E31F@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:01:28 -0000 --On Monday, November 29, 2021 15:13 +0900 "Martin J. = D=C3=BCrst" wrote: > Hello Peter, others, >=20 > On 2021-11-29 02:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/23/21 7:59 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > >... >> Changing "the" to "a" might be considered controversial, but >> I perceive a touch of hubris in asserting that no other >> documents address these matters. >=20 > I think the the/a choice and "archival" are quite connected. > We seem to try to interpret "archival" mostly in absolute > terms. But it's actually possible (and probably more > productive) to see it in relative terms. The way I understand > it, and would explain it to an outsider, is that whatever is > considered to be of (reasonably) long term value is made into > an RFC. >=20 > So RFCs are *the* archival series, For IETF, IAB, and related work per language Peter has already written. And that distinction should be clear in the document if we are going to stay with "the". I think it already is clear, but don't know if that opinion is shared. > whereas other stuff (IDs, > meeting proceedings, mail archives, ...) are the "other" > non-archival stuff, which are mostly transitory. Of course, > even such (relatively) archival stuff can get obsolete (as Ekr > has explained) or even lost (not yet, fortunately, for RFCs), > and some of the other ("ephemeral"?) stuff can occasionally > become important (e.g. subpoenas for patent cases,...). >=20 > Taken in this respect, I hope nobody disagrees. I'm not sure > how we can make this clear in the text. I, at least, agree. Let me probe two examples, one from your list above and one from an example Jay gave to see if it clarifies things further. Once upon a time, the IETF compiled and published meeting proceedings. They appeared on reasonable-quality paper, in bound volumes that were widely distributed. They were self-contained and did not change once published. They were intended to be part of the historical record, not something one read and discarded. Assuming the paper quality was good enough, they would have a fair claim to "archival" by most reasonable definitions. After some years, they started being issued on CDs and the paper versions were abandoned. Like the RFC Series, which had abandoned paper as the main distribution medium much earlier, if someone wanted to go into the business of making paper versions, nothing would be done to discourage them (I assume that CNRI would even have provided that service for a significant nuisance fee). However, unlike good quality paper that is properly stored, CDs and conventional DVDs are questionable as archival media (in case people don't know, there are international standards for that and, for those who care, understanding the physical differences between DVD disc and M-DISC technology is worthwhile), so additional precautions were taken to be sure there were widely-distributed online copies and/or care taken to periodically copy the CDs before their likely deterioration dates. And eventually we abandoned the CDs (again, if someone wanted to make them, we would not try to block that). Still archival? Probably, but without the very systematic efforts that several people have cited to be sure RFCs stayed available and accessible. So maybe a bit closer to archival by accident rather than archival by careful design and planning. Then, at some stage and with little or no discussion in/with the community, "we" stopped compiling proceedings. Instead, "the proceedings" became an extension of meeting agendas with links to meeting materials, minutes, video and/or audio recordings, etc., with quality and comprehensibility even a few months or years after the meeting occurred varying by WG. Because, AFAICT, it was no one's responsibility to verify those links and the availability of all the materials over time, some of the links deteriorated to the point that locating all of the bits that made up the supposed proceedings several years later (much less decades or centuries) often became a real challenge. =20 Archival proceedings now? Nope... actually rather far into ephemeral. Difference between that and RFCs? Ultimately more a matter of intent and commitment rather than, e.g., choices of technology or a catalog of attributes. And, to push the analogy a bit further, if there is ever a proposal to allow RFCs to be published that are really just an index to a collection of links (as the "proceedings" have become), it is probably important to be sure that idea gets careful consideration by as wide a collection of parties who would likely be affected as possible rather than having it depend on who is participating in the RSWG in a given year or treated as if it were an administrative decision. The second example is that Jay mentioned the use of WORM media as a path to "archival". But the "availability" part of the story is not just about the media, but about long-term readability and interpretability. In the late 1980s, I was involved it a project that was recording collections of images of long-term scholarly significance onto LaserDisc, a WORM format. But try to read one of those discs today, starting with finding a working player and then, if indexing and image retrieval were on a computer, finding the appropriate software and computer system. Certainly not impossible, but not consistent with "archival and accessible". Those images were not lost because the content of those LaserDiscs were systematically copied to other media and the access programs updated (at least for a while), but those steps were, again, a matter of intent and commitment above and beyond whatever went into curating and creating the collection and recording it onto some medium in the first place. best, john From nobody Mon Nov 29 09:21:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3003A07B6 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:21:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiyUkF8Ywe1D for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CE033A07B7 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 09:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1ATHLe7j3624651 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:21:41 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1638206501; bh=y79FVYydsc7A3ep2FCPcFJ6oc1Q8Qqb18k82EMbDmxc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:From; b=owWeiPzv6Nfq/uBj6hZb6G7o8LBrmRSEaHq1MxQB1uU64OY7H9bwpSlBSNMbJt+cH UyU+wNVZwWwL51cenmKEEuHE2UvfbX7V2aBN+/u7otFN4mj/sfu5G9Yz7nhVOua5bK BXhpb5W9XLsAYnlqeu5MEpASu/gyAtJu5N3kf9zM= Message-ID: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:21:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------dILTt4yruszY8PMNLRrc0CMB" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:21:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------dILTt4yruszY8PMNLRrc0CMB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Yz0isnm2mUngPPQzF0b2da0A"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> Subject: Proposals on GH --------------Yz0isnm2mUngPPQzF0b2da0A Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9BE7awXYt4LkJSmmuND8oDWa" --------------9BE7awXYt4LkJSmmuND8oDWa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------L1yzWjE0vrt6ZSRKdxHSKXN5" --------------L1yzWjE0vrt6ZSRKdxHSKXN5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpKb2VsJ3MgdGV4dCBoZXJlIA0KPGh0dHBzOi8vZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9pbnRhcmNoYm9hcmQv cHJvZ3JhbS1yZmNlZC1mdXR1cmUvYmxvYi9tYXN0ZXIvaGFscGVybi1wcmluY2lwbGVzLm1k Pi4NCg0KQnJpYW4ncyB0ZXh0IGhlcmUgDQo8aHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL2ludGFyY2hi b2FyZC9wcm9ncmFtLXJmY2VkLWZ1dHVyZS9ibG9iL21hc3Rlci9jYXJwZW50ZXItaGlzdG9y aWNhbC1wcm9wZXJ0aWVzLm1kPi4NCg0KSWYgYW55b25lIGVsc2Ugd2FudHMgdGV4dCBwb3N0 ZWQgaW4gYWR2YW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgbWVldGluZywgbGV0IG1lIA0Ka25vdy7CoCBJJ20gbm90 IGdvaW5nIHRvIGJlIHBpY2t5Lg0KDQpFbGlvdA0KDQoNCg== --------------L1yzWjE0vrt6ZSRKdxHSKXN5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Joel's text here.

Brian's text here.

If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, let me know.=C2=A0 I'm not going to be picky.

Eliot


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Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH Thread-Index: AQHX5UWeqK6HtQLv/keBaRd8jSalhqwa5jIA Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:36:16 +0000 Message-ID: <629DAF95-CA08-4CE2-AB98-E5C282C02CC8@akamai.com> References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21111400 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_629DAF95CA084CE2AB98E5C282C02CC8akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-29_08:2021-11-28, 2021-11-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=627 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uqgyO5c46rJz for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27A713A08CC for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2xRn3L7Dz6GYR0; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:15:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638216933; bh=/Zzvhs/8j3bH+2scDiKLOVJB341gAE2Xu0LtRRFQuAE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=ewjrJ0eqeG+Hs/5Xwn2lYZhS5aFEp43snj+QYCWAZDIMriBsLXWM9TI4DzBX6t6x2 VXr3I6BPNCEPZQVMfULhFPylFuxRl6F7s+Icu58R59Trx0RMMljZMessio/cCmwe/r YhEaNZ/Er6CpN29zcV+s5JzfC+NMlfYOu9FBl9Jw= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2xRm3btsz6GYQv; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:15:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <53a1cc12-2e9a-ab41-3a4a-f504c1820329@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:15:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> <629DAF95-CA08-4CE2-AB98-E5C282C02CC8@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <629DAF95-CA08-4CE2-AB98-E5C282C02CC8@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:15:39 -0000 I suspect I am misunderstanding the point of your quesiton. I would expect the text I proposed to appear at the beginning of a new section on Principles, where it would be followed by the principles we agree to include. Where in the document that sections goes would seem to be up to Peter, who has done an able job editing the document. Yours, Joel On 11/29/2021 2:36 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > * Joel's text here > . > > Joel, can you please point to where in the doc you would add your text? > From nobody Mon Nov 29 12:17:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5423A08D2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KW3CWHOi7d6A for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf32.google.com (mail-qv1-xf32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 169333A083E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf32.google.com with SMTP id s9so15705174qvk.12 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=LxLzDhNaMqrOTAyKCgwgvndL+J2XVeKbr1KfZptSdBA=; b=1Ecekis1dzJEsWlUJaTGKgIb0P9o9PVi4e9IAy4C7EF68kelrSk9a6zMM66u9xPdJh H3cXCS8OhPPKVhvsNqX+jmLusdKyk7fcVi5Mziir7AgV0CV6oOVIdKt4mNYMzQh1R8oi c285HcQRbOMgBnYA98UixMRV9TVQIw1VAySQEtiC0PyoEzJnvfenx+zq+dxsLEGQpZ4P yhyqVHM71sGKvnzMcvsNHc2bc6mabx7ehfCvz1c9YnSYIXM6YM6ZvfapCWkZj8HauN11 CKmO1oLT/JL+YG1d2JmrdYiQUswP/DrOJpEox/25o3mrGcD3K+sTlYeutTL5ZjmuFvQq 3N4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=LxLzDhNaMqrOTAyKCgwgvndL+J2XVeKbr1KfZptSdBA=; b=3weA/oyTN0j6GHd/ndqhsZj+Mesb5fFe5uzjnbKlue1UImUnZiCV92Nh8Qs4TQtiZK TlW6Hz4MtCeJUL8anrkT/yBZrIxLBVSp2vpsTit6GOqq2a/OIwuQsZlBjW0JWo6dU5vm AvUTrXmEFNs7BJ9kWJ8dR0N7X/ai+KUkvfXpQI307T6NNe83grxvRahuWNk9tegTDnt/ B57octtAHVBhOQ8STpFUfzIxL/B4euhtDxP9JO9VZyWEngAdALvZGz0W2I57T5mSU+lw 1A5YnOvLC/s0AKOvdgFCHI6q+ZHCxfuAXSyAPq8O22cHFjLvhsJotdDuxvdnoUq1Y9kk GoSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531OwjjjpHwAxS9kdrem9n4mvZMnrZrb5ecq+eYs9F/R4RBg42vz TvsNxepVK/iYocBoCK752I82+TlncGuTTiLk X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzsWF0pdqzdEdcZuPKjjAfamxUcnAUnTqVQe006IaXSSsAa0MMKV4tRe2Ir1CLdyQ5tMCemqw== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:56a4:: with SMTP id bd4mr44545799qvb.16.1638217045809; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o9sm10002994qtk.81.2021.11.29.12.17.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:17:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------o4jC4NaDfrvWs7bc7dBA7qvS" Message-ID: <80410486-2536-e2cc-5813-dd37de57b871@nthpermutation.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:17:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:17:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------o4jC4NaDfrvWs7bc7dBA7qvS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/29/2021 12:21 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > Joel's text here > . > > Brian's text here > . > > If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, let me > know.  I'm not going to be picky. > > Eliot > > > My text as well please.   It started the discussion and deserves consideration. --------------o4jC4NaDfrvWs7bc7dBA7qvS Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 11/29/2021 12:21 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:


Joel's text here.

Brian's text here.

If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, let me know.  I'm not going to be picky.

Eliot




My text as well please.   It started the discussion and deserves consideration.

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Halpern" CC: "rfced-future@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH Thread-Index: AQHX5UWeqK6HtQLv/keBaRd8jSalhqwa5jIAgABey4D//6zkgA== Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:18:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> <629DAF95-CA08-4CE2-AB98-E5C282C02CC8@akamai.com> <53a1cc12-2e9a-ab41-3a4a-f504c1820329@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <53a1cc12-2e9a-ab41-3a4a-f504c1820329@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.55.21111400 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-29_09:2021-11-28, 2021-11-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=792 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111290094 X-Proofpoint-GUID: kAHhzOKcA5z2WH4KEbqd3hyW3GfVCfvD X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: kAHhzOKcA5z2WH4KEbqd3hyW3GfVCfvD X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-11-29_11,2021-11-28_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=807 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2111290095 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:19:39 -0000 PiAgIEkgd291bGQgZXhwZWN0IHRoZSB0ZXh0IEkgcHJvcG9zZWQgdG8gYXBwZWFyIGF0IHRoZSBi ZWdpbm5pbmcgb2YgYSBuZXcgDQogICAgc2VjdGlvbiBvbiBQcmluY2lwbGVzLCB3aGVyZSBpdCB3 b3VsZCBiZSBmb2xsb3dlZCBieSB0aGUgcHJpbmNpcGxlcyB3ZSANCiAgICBhZ3JlZSB0byBpbmNs dWRlLg0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHRoZSBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uLiBTbyBJIGd1ZXNzIEkgZG8g bm90IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgd2h5ICJ5b3VyIHRleHQiIGlzIGZyYW1lZCBhcyBhbiBhbHRlcm5hdGl2 ZSB0byAiQnJpYW4ncyB0ZXh0IiBzaW5jZSB0aGV5J3JlIGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgZGlmZmVyZW50LiAg T2ggd2VsbC4gSSBndWVzcyBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IG1hdHRlciBzaW5jZSB0aGUgInByaW5jaXBsZXMi IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYXQgdGhlIGludGVyaW0gd2lsbCBkZXNjZW5kIGludG8gYSBiYXIgZmlnaHQg bm8gbWF0dGVyIHdoYXQuDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:25:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48343A09E1 for ; 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d7sm19681430pfj.91.2021.11.29.13.24.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:24:52 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> <6ccbb8d1-ab43-e34c-aab2-61c57a4d0567@cs.tcd.ie> <9e815650-3bf2-c718-4b5a-9e1c7355667a@nostrum.com> <63a0795d-af9b-c877-4999-74cf4f9ac549@joelhalpern.com> <9b1f45cf-326c-7e87-a88a-6309297ae4f8@joelhalpern.com> <0fbcbe67-d6ba-8d50-265e-a31662974635@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <591986e7-1a6e-dd8b-85a8-3f8bdd26a8dc@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:24:48 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:25:01 -0000 On 30-Nov-21 02:26, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:37 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > On 29-Nov-21 16:12, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 7:06 PM Joel M. Halpern >> wrote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The two you list are how and why we have outs= ide long term repositories > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maintaining copies of the series.=C2=A0 In or= der to do so, there had to be a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0form suitable for such storage.=C2=A0 PDF/A w= ith the included XML met that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirement. > > > > > > Thanks for the clarification, as it helps me understand what thi= s text means. > > > > In that case, I don't agree with this as a basic principle. I gu= ess it's sort of > > useful to have the RFCs backed up somewhere, but I don't think t= hat is > > actually a really hard requirement: to the extent to which they = continue > > to be relevant, I have high confidence that they will continue t= o be available > > somewhere (if only on archive.org >) and to the extent to which they are not= > > relevant, I'm not sure that I care that much. > > > > This is not to say that it's bad, but merely that if it turned o= ut that > it was in > > conflict with something else (say an RFC format that was more im= mediately > > useful in some other way) then, I wouldn't want this to be a blo= cker. >=20 > I'm confused. How could it be a problem for somebody wanting to pub= lish > RFC8200 using the Revised Martian Gopher format that there's a copy=20 in > PDF/A format somewhere in the basement of the Bodleian Library at > Oxford University? >=20 >=20 > The concern would be an objection to publishing RFC 10000 in the Revise= d Martian > Gopher format on the grounds that it was not readily convertible to PDF= /A. I see, but is there any proposed language that would appear to forbid an alternative format? I'm not convinced there's an active danger here. [I suggest a 3-D printer able to create cuneiform clay tablets.] >=20 >=20 > >> - Documented provenance > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It seems to me that the provenance of our=20 documents is rather fuzzy -- >=20 > I think not. Both the RFC Editor service and the IETF Secretariat r= outinely > respond to subpoenas with sworn provenance of RFCs and I-Ds, as I u= nderstand > it. >=20 >=20 > But all of that is ephemera. >=20 > If we're only concerned about these properties applying as long as the = IETF Secretariat > continues to exist, the problem is much easier. But presumably you want=20 the provenance > of these documents to be verifiable beyond that (FWIW, I don't think th= at's very > important, but, I'm trying to scope out the requirements others seem to=20 have). We'd probably like these documents to be available until the end of the I= nternet. Beyond that, professional archivists can do whatever they think best. Brian >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > The one I thought might raise real debate was: >=20 > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Metadata available separately and with muc= h of the same > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'archival'=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristi= cs as the series >=20 > Why? Because the IETF has *never* figured out a decent way to ident= ify > exactly which documents define a particular standard on a particula= r day. > At the moment, that is tied up with variable metadata such as "upda= ted by" > and "obsoleted by". So I'd take this aspect out of Jay's list, beca= use > such metadata do change routinely. >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian >=20 > > > > -Ekr > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 10:01 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 6:50 PM Joel M. Ha= lpern > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>= > wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01) I find it interestin= g that "archival" is now an argument, when no > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0objected to it being de= finitional for the series before. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, I for one, never liked it, though I = found it to be largely > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > rhetorical in the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > current text, and so didn't really object = that much. However, now that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it seems > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to be attached to text about a heightened = degree of scrutiny for > changes, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I find it important to know what it means.= > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So, I don't think it's that interesting, a= nd if we had agreement > to abandon > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > any text about heightened scrutiny, I woul= d be fine to have the current > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > text that says "archival" > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02) I can not comment on=20 whether the "unconstested" part of the list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be acceptable bec= ause I have no idea which parts are actually > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contested.=C2=A0 (I do = assume some is.=C2=A0 I just don't know which ones.) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well, as I've noted a number of times "Con= tent never changes once > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > published" seems to > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > be one such piece. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I don't know what the following mean" > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. W= ORM) storage > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Always available > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In what sense is rfc-editor.org > >> "always > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > available" that (say) ietf.org > >> is not? > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I also don't really know what this means: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > - Documented provenance > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It seems to me that the provenance of our = documents is rather fuzzy -- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > or at least > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that the documentation is not itself archi= val. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Your, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 11/28/2021 9:36 PM, = Eric Rescorla wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021=20 at 6:08 PM Jay Daley > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >>>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > On 29/11/2021, at 2:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>> wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Hiya, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > On 29/11/2021 01:04, > Adam Roach wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = >> If the properties are not clear, then writing the word > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"= archival" into a document is manifestly problematic, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > I honestly disagree, > while at the same time believing those > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > with whom I'm disagreeing are being honest and up-front. It > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > seems to me that those for whom use of that word is seen as > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > problematic do have the same understanding of what it means, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > but just do not agree that it ought be used. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > IOW, I don't think this is a matter of a definition, but one > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > where some of us are > trying to ensure what we think of as an > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > important feature of > the current series is maintained (while > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > of course not preventing future consensus to make such major > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > changes) whereas others of prefer to not say that in case it > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > makes those potential future changes harder. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > More simply: my belief is that we all understand the term and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > its consequences, but some us of do/don't want to see it used > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > here. In general, I think the arguments for inclusion of such > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > "principles" have been made already and don't need repetition > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > in this mail. I acknowledge that those arguments have not yet > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > been accepted by all:-) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H= ere=E2=80=99s a list of all of the specific properties of RFCs that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= eard/understood to come under the general principle of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival': > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Canonical format chosen for maximum device-independence and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0l= ongevity as a structured, computer readable format > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Content never changes > once published (nobody has suggested this > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0m= ean that revisions can=E2=80=99t be published, only that they become > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=99new=E2=80=99 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d= ocuments) > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Suitable for 'permanent' (i.e. WORM) storage > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Always available > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Assigned unique global references always available through > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Proactively deposited > with multiple archives > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Clearly identified and available as part of a set (the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archive') > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Documented provenance > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Author and date stamped > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=20 Metadata available separately and with much of the same > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'archival' > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c= haracteristics as the series > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S= ome of these may sit better under the principle of 'published > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0s= eries' than 'archival', which perhaps illustrates the danger of > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c= onsidering a single principle in isolation. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=20 suspect though that defining a list will not take us closer > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r= esolution as there will still be a split between those who > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0w= e can agree such a list and those who want that left to the > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RSWG to > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t= ackle. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for providing=20 this list. It seems to me that some of these > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > trivial and unobject= ionable and some of them are contested. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It might be useful t= o ask whether those who think "archival" is a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > word would be willin= g to replace it with the list of uncontested > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Then we can avoid th= e argument about whether "archival" > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encompasses them. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -Ekr > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J= ay > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Cheers, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > S. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > -- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Rfced-future mailing > list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > Rfced-future@iab.org > > >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-= - > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J= ay Daley > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I= ETF Executive Director > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > exec-director@ietf.o= rg > >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > > > >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:25:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141B33A09FF for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:25:35 -0000 --------------inimm5ZELnRReLctfcII6L25 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Lq06K00uuPmBFChdff0nmA9r"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <06a528cd-af53-76b9-d520-64ffdd6c865f@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: Proposals on GH References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> --------------Lq06K00uuPmBFChdff0nmA9r Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------mp7bim4QmiNEpY5mjnCPP0Wz" --------------mp7bim4QmiNEpY5mjnCPP0Wz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpJIHdvbid0IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gbWFrZSB0aGUgaW50ZXJpbSBidXQgSSBo 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76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Jay Daley , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:36:35 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:37:02 -0000 On 11/18/2021 9:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > There’s a key point here that I don’t understand and that I’m hoping someone can explain. Why do people think that the RSWG is more likely to reach consensus on changing something like ‘open access to RFCs’ than this group? Jay -- I see two factors that are likely to drive people's perspectives about whether these principles should be defined in the rfced-future program or in the RSWG, and I don't think "likeliness of reaching consensus on principles" is one of them. The first factor is a practical consideration that this program was established to quickly put in place a structure that could ensure stewardship of the RFC series. Until it does so, we have the equivalent of a "provisional government" for the series, left in something of a holding pattern, and specifically constrained from making any strategic decisions. It is now 20 months into this process, and we have a document that arguably, after much work, meets the fundamental goal that the program had at its outset. Into this, we add a demonstrably controversial proposal to add principles to the document; and, to complicate matters, the proposed principles themselves are controversial. It is difficult to imagine either of these issues resolved quickly, and each day we spend attempting to resolve them results in another day delay in moving out of our provisional holding pattern into a new model of governance. Reaching consensus in the RSWG will not be faster or more likely to succeed, because it will presumably have exactly the same personnel makeup as this program; but neither will the conversation in the RSWG gate the creation of the new governance structure. The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or outright stating) that by placing these principles into the document that defines the new model itself, they become in some way sacrosanct, and outside the purview of the RSWG to change. By contrast, principles defined by the RSWG itself can't logically be beyond the RSWG's remit to revise later. This is a principle you sometimes see in lawmaking, where certain provisions are put in place that require some extraordinary (and frequently unattainable) preconditions to be met in order to ever be revised. There was, for example, a recent constitutional amendment passed in Texas -- which has never had a state income tax -- requiring a 2/3rds majority of the legislature to *ever* enact an income tax, rather than the simple majority that any other lawmaking generally requires. This kind of action can be seen either as a benevolent attempt to lock in some fundamental properties that we believe will protect the community from harmful future changes, or as a paternalistic attempt to protect future versions of the community from itself by exerting the will of the (by that future point in time) minority of people who happened to have a majority position at some potentially long-past point in time. I suspect the core of the tussle we're seeing right now has to do with which of these two perspectives various program participants have. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:43:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0D63A0A8E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:43:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fwKHiDeDV6Is for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2100.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AB5A3A0A41 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:43:32 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=jOZqsmnwK6uT1kAj9DhlVbHin0BVgz36/1nvySbzpbyLD2pjTWKk9k6zNzFlCEh+pkfy9J7q/7jzsZbwJSiDTRsPvYRKwNxUVctzPIGHaDfWqE9esqgojheLhCpC6hD+m3cYEkS9fyAdoNQ3ZIqOxGa7Nd6Co5l1GummsEeCkv+ZuXZzmIDNKtpI6KbUwcp+f2o4js233bSZXtesrpwpauFaX3ptGK5rWygXzxKjN58Kp8xIbJpn/qyUm0jWo0g+OEemmWx0ei7SaF49dVtExecL+JKPCz0HoYk5+I+U/5i3NjOofDJBViCBKKlNm6Y0Xfyn57+2rwVYA374Aoy9Cg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=rnLXOD9xQCA9c1iKApU9bkGIf7KauSBgk/VkjZ490M8=; b=BbGwg9RXkFNTsPjGSkVUWi8O3RK/xN1H2K3u7zhnp5nldnXxVvqu9eWhXD0kDIs14xtiiKC3Wgdq8LgSipCa11E/1a4b9ruqhEmedtoXARARrjq47Qpb9VMehSw7UPm9MU24jsSi4G5wob0ekWQ03/6TBcDpOSm+5vCuFu/7PuSdY2OkeShH7MWRQGV5SfXCfheOYNSAABokNlq86OmnzATpbAiCSHh/5nqwAMbPqQatFXhi268Bl5lDyX5YX9rwZTbeGDLlSosTVBEGZ0bXo9uSUwz9hnaFbiwvcR3NRU7aneVSP5gun9Js88kIDj3rJCdr2BZb7EBQp1Ra9KEy4A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=rnLXOD9xQCA9c1iKApU9bkGIf7KauSBgk/VkjZ490M8=; b=U3CXDwOXdGwtZ87x4jRQ2TrFN+WOb94JrA9O3pvjOWKXi/+4Ah6/JLO+zyynCm5WTi6Woht9RIQS2L6qwd4mS6S2hnrfpTRXThBXErBUGnWQiCE2xs4fizNPn6ixOXXyvKg2aVffrmO/Yuwi9N9MYorn3YZoeq1lY3GwUO95caLbYyaGaF+zeUettCf+7zv9dY1hgjZDHpOY7Jfw9OIB4pvqMauwltBUIs267yd7vS10FvyFr28VflkXnZuA4yuQcsJ8D9agZkNBSxU47arOtl/EAAILT2JH4GSNcyageJPlB1MQFy83sOUXspstkYQmavVR+/A/59whNUP/x4ZReA== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6779.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:1f8::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:43:29 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:43:29 +0000 Message-ID: <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:43:27 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , Jay Daley , "Joel M. 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wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGlSX8FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+o7 JQ//WYtJr1704QDZTBJlE7oVVP6UNg7VtwjAo778nGzFFqxgHFaV1JUit40S1MmqpNSbyJFnq71C 4gYBkNvZnor0bhdyx87vUYMXyTGX7fFsEHQnKknxfCnx4BLPMQLRTvqazr1wHAkp5+XRbXEjn1Ar md+ntLAHVMWZD4+91HR9S+RznA90nX495l4ZO2kIiA17KB1eDleH0KDA3wUaTB82ajdZ05LGuRmz DfS0rPm7M4pyjvQp+96mV7MvdOUe/J0Mwqo+iXOL0JkqwDHeEt3rRCSJdW91N974KxI9Psaey49D +dwfxTSgYyjBpvGoEIs0VSDWGLTWl4FcYysBecFC3I/JPY8hsvaoWM74iPfpexgrF9eW2BBViQmh CFPlg01Hyp9GH8Llyyk70epyFEjGndDE5QfAKLxjmUAqL2fHzLgG8SjwB0Rvbak/cu2Zoi93Neuz jTuR/S65RJGjPJPmfvRPG8WRZJAsU+T9JF0i654ARLbINO4mpmhu+0f/HpKePdcAKMnGlkli+XrD wossy8FwBJwjzYKQyJoitLILGNKkXe9U0F/mgmvhuRqd7rfVN3WT+WUH4/LA0aD/mKb89x0e6HDa C1n87ceCZm/2/qkp8dldDo/SDgRs5HB5n9UC0cwp8dMl/bQ/IWkTnSlUlsZYnn05RRzXzzpYtKo0 +xE= =TWbj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------RFFhmY4vp8qpq0GUtaLF5vWt-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:48:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B933A0A4E; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:48:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZLB9WRhqPotF; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 032C13A0A41; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATLlveS067812 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:47:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638222480; bh=6DT4OP2A4pLTLOiFdBfe8PJc5QMaWq1qgQgj994Y8dk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=gLrFHPbVa44ymTTuYAS2Qs8QYOHj+tpd/7vFgfmuRzodDc9NxC5g6MKJNii29tJSc WoopxuhoURB+5xnpboGoN/IiX7u2VX1zMQheffcFb+UnoR42SGIUcZkG/iqAQ2eLUe tQ++M5qrhunuy4nOzQeOGsQX3dBZfP0pOEjLeDyw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , Jay Daley , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, "Salz, Rich" , Eric Rescorla , Mirja Kuehlewind , Tommy Pauly References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:47:53 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:48:13 -0000 On 11/29/2021 3:43 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi Adam > > On 29/11/2021 21:36, Adam Roach wrote: >> >> The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or >> outright stating) that by placing these principles into the document >> that defines the new model itself, they become in some way >> sacrosanct, and outside the purview of the RSWG to change. > > Where was that stated? I don't recall such. AFAIK everyone > who wants this kind of text included understands that things > can change later. "Sacrosanct" seems like a pretty inaccurate > way to describe that. Stephen: among others that I can't find as quickly, there's this message: On 11/22/2021 12:02 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in > Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally > subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak analogy, > this document we're working on is a constitution, while the RSWG/RSAB > will be writing laws subject to that constitution. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:52:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2043D3A0A80 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:52:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=CRo1GVXt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XU7N+wgR Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmP-GulbSL0y for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29A203A0A79 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C116A3201DA6; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:52:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=l PDA2BFiKHb/4hyBzvXp5EGeZKaR24HKxQWYcRE5Urw=; b=CRo1GVXtl7i3tP8M/ 7lfo2bdHbcDRhtCADpIV1dYdGQPiL4yaTeqC3SwF/fmjC281QBGbTG1vWTsbllmR KrbBZef+hF0xxEBDn4WU79o9sy9Vjawzy0j6yesZEtuFtt1xCu/kMdaP7RR/+s5g Igf/yzDHSA8N6gYi3QW83N3tXvZdBZLGHQI9yFV35SsPk96G9PE3A24aaYd+GK6t 7WgvuNkpfiTHLVG5claw1O/C7Qn6wC7HCqfExDJANlDeI4FDW95rWjOsVSFk78q7 Gcgb2tUDJTE1eU/u2TKQ88L7xiIWr9WFk30P40IIGiaaCETL14r2Gt73Zh9tIjQe i9xZA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=lPDA2BFiKHb/4hyBzvXp5EGeZKaR24HKxQWYcRE5U rw=; b=XU7N+wgRagdJIFD3wlbdCJPWPxgQotR7/33dsPkwV64RSJx7rFk8QlvLq mpxFFsWOZtcn4jQMgPNa9l/KKJB14C2lDVloV4JK5ASxBqlZQavbMDvFTtwbkcHq ioG7EMQjr27cEo64+mpPhIgPKOOHBeJ09uWZT8KJbyeFjfbX3HC6uxTEu9E9awRP jFNMlwgMxjE7Wrf8GKbcxmq9Uoz6sYoT+ozGpJb2B9bNVg4+bntKGUG6t6UjE2OU /9Ghw04tNzFI2EGFn+PZ8F4WlAjUTolP3Jh5TZeuNXckT+wF0wI0T7k3Ft9mZ8La E0f1trK1r5m+L1hJ5LaInmpHxd+Jw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheelgdduheegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevtdfgteetgfffve ehtedvudegudfgleevfedtleevtefgfeeggffgfeeludekheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:52:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9ab74b5f-4fa1-8655-d399-36fac2c2e69c@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:52:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , John C Klensin Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <774dc4f1-71b5-e358-9bdc-2c8466c0219a@stpeter.im> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] "Technical specifications" and the document X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:52:21 -0000 On 11/28/21 11:13 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Hello Peter, others, > > On 2021-11-29 02:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 11/23/21 7:59 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > >>> OLD: >>>     The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival >>>     series dedicated to documenting Internet technical >>>     specifications, including general contributions from the >>>     Internet research and engineering community as well as >>>     standards documents. >>> >>> NEW: >>>     The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is the archival >>>     series dedicated to documenting the technical evolution >>>     and administration of Internet resources, including >>>     standards documents, general contributions from the >>>     Internet research and engineering community, and related >>>     commentary. >> >> Hi John, thanks for the suggested text. >> >> With respect to "archival series": yes, I know this is in the original >> but as I noted in another thread, I'm not sure that the adjective does >> much for us as a fundamental definition of the Series as opposed one >> aspect of how the documents are handled. >> >> Also, series of what? Documents, clearly. >> >> Taking into account comments from Mark and Ekr, I suggest: >> >> NEWER: >>        The Request for Comments (RFC) Series is a series of documents >>        regarding the technical evolution and administration of the >>        Internet, including standards documents, general contributions >>        from the Internet research and engineering community, and related >>        commentary. >> >> Changing "the" to "a" might be considered controversial, but I >> perceive a touch of hubris in asserting that no other documents >> address these matters. > > I think the the/a choice and "archival" are quite connected. We seem to > try to interpret "archival" mostly in absolute terms. But it's actually > possible (and probably more productive) to see it in relative terms. The > way I understand it, and would explain it to an outsider, is that > whatever is considered to be of (reasonably) long term value is made > into an RFC. > > So RFCs are *the* archival series, whereas other stuff (IDs, meeting > proceedings, mail archives, ...) are the "other" non-archival stuff, > which are mostly transitory. Of course, even such (relatively) archival > stuff can get obsolete (as Ekr has explained) or even lost (not yet, > fortunately, for RFCs), and some of the other ("ephemeral"?) stuff can > occasionally become important (e.g. subpoenas for patent cases,...). > > Taken in this respect, I hope nobody disagrees. I'm not sure how we can > make this clear in the text. Saying that the RFC Series is *the* series of documents regarding the technical evolution and administration of the Internet could be taken to imply that any other series of documents (produced by, say, W3C, Ecma, or ISO) don't count. That strikes me as hubris. 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[was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> --------------0xh6IG5Iaxjc2O84g0aEH6MN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------NtHOD9HuP2WOXrTj2UTDcZUa" --------------NtHOD9HuP2WOXrTj2UTDcZUa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDI5LzExLzIwMjEgMjE6NDcsIEFkYW0gUm9hY2ggd3JvdGU6DQo+IFN0ZXBoZW46 wqBhbW9uZ8Kgb3RoZXJzwqB0aGF0wqBJwqBjYW4ndMKgZmluZMKgYXPCoHF1aWNrbHkswqB0 aGVyZSdzwqB0aGlzwqBtZXNzYWdlOg0KDQpUaGFua3MuIEJ1dCB3YXNuJ3QgdGhhdCBhY2Nv bXBhbmllZCBieSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGEpIHRoYXQgaXQNCndhc24ndCBhIGdyZWF0IGFuYWxv Z3kgYW5kIGIpIGFzIHRvIGhvdyBjb25zdGl0dXRpb25zIGNoYW5nZS4NCg0KQSBjbGFpbSB0 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6QhSNK6LgUvj for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227513A005B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6BB436DD03; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:56:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocfCh6RPsfEC; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 119C2436DD01; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:56:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:56:21 +1300 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:56:33 -0000 > On 30/11/2021, at 10:36 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > On 11/18/2021 9:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> There=E2=80=99s a key point here that I don=E2=80=99t understand and = that I=E2=80=99m hoping someone can explain. Why do people think that = the RSWG is more likely to reach consensus on changing something like = =E2=80=98open access to RFCs=E2=80=99 than this group? >=20 >=20 > Jay -- >=20 > I see two factors that are likely to drive people's perspectives about = whether these principles should be defined in the rfced-future program = or in the RSWG, and I don't think "likeliness of reaching consensus on = principles" is one of them. >=20 > The first factor is a practical consideration that this program was = established to quickly put in place a structure that could ensure = stewardship of the RFC series. Until it does so, we have the equivalent = of a "provisional government" for the series, left in something of a = holding pattern, and specifically constrained from making any strategic = decisions. It is now 20 months into this process, and we have a document = that arguably, after much work, meets the fundamental goal that the = program had at its outset. >=20 > Into this, we add a demonstrably controversial proposal to add = principles to the document; and, to complicate matters, the proposed = principles themselves are controversial. It is difficult to imagine = either of these issues resolved quickly, and each day we spend = attempting to resolve them results in another day delay in moving out of = our provisional holding pattern into a new model of governance. Reaching = consensus in the RSWG will not be faster or more likely to succeed, = because it will presumably have exactly the same personnel makeup as = this program; but neither will the conversation in the RSWG gate the = creation of the new governance structure. >=20 > The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or = outright stating) that by placing these principles into the document = that defines the new model itself, they become in some way sacrosanct, = and outside the purview of the RSWG to change. By contrast, principles = defined by the RSWG itself can't logically be beyond the RSWG's remit to = revise later. >=20 > This is a principle you sometimes see in lawmaking, where certain = provisions are put in place that require some extraordinary (and = frequently unattainable) preconditions to be met in order to ever be = revised. There was, for example, a recent constitutional amendment = passed in Texas -- which has never had a state income tax -- requiring a = 2/3rds majority of the legislature to *ever* enact an income tax, rather = than the simple majority that any other lawmaking generally requires. >=20 > This kind of action can be seen either as a benevolent attempt to lock = in some fundamental properties that we believe will protect the = community from harmful future changes, or as a paternalistic attempt to = protect future versions of the community from itself by exerting the = will of the (by that future point in time) minority of people who = happened to have a majority position at some potentially long-past point = in time. I suspect the core of the tussle we're seeing right now has to = do with which of these two perspectives various program participants = have. Thanks Adam, that=E2=80=99s a well articulated summary. My question though was slightly different so let me try expressing it = better - there are some who are concerned that the RSWG will go ahead = and agree changes that break some fundamental principles that this group = would never agree to, and so seek to protect those fundamental = principles now to limit that. My question was, how could it be = apparently so much easier for the RSWG to reach consensus on something = that breaks these principles when there are people in this group who are = strongly supportive of those principles? Or to put it more bluntly and = borrowing a phrase from Rich Salz - if we didn=E2=80=99t have this bar = fight in this group then wouldn=E2=80=99t we just have it in the RSWG, = what=E2=80=99s different? The two answers I=E2=80=99ve had offlist are that a) such change could = happen by stealth/accident if the principles are not pre-defined; and b) = the dynamics of the RSWG will be very different from the dynamics of = this group potentially leading to some strongly supported positions here = being declared as in the rough in the RSWG. =20 Jay >=20 > /a >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:58:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457203A00AE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:58:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=R4YxuaUv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=eqs0Sz8A Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQj_XKR-rjpJ for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76FE33A0063 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5AB3201DE8; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:58:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=s Ea+K4VtBxBh3r0ljpKObMP13q9PLjMgtYdmCZTa+yM=; b=R4YxuaUvKd+ScHqwv jcxdkL3KdbRbZEUZ8lOIxcxGbEtk7x2gLXMU3K4Glzt1vwJ8DcjTlpjtXIV9Or5Q w6M24f0pmcT/TIhomfT7P9A64XK9/+WiM3rCa9eSSGNU650wK9lc7q6dAE+Et5Uu 5AlL6Pr852DSmtdgNej2NMZ89JRO4MDwokZtip7AgNhoy1LQ2kFdsb2W7vqQl5XW 2f3x8r9Y2s1khWjmmLvW30XIyYyHXz7bp8bbFh8RVcoz3vbsKOPEd8sHhRIA4zvv Gq1uUDyKvfJ0FcSrQFSUAEJDiN5UEgZtfUbx6iSsTcSsXROtOKWsZhilScnKBMKl dUfvg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=sEa+K4VtBxBh3r0ljpKObMP13q9PLjMgtYdmCZTa+ yM=; b=eqs0Sz8AI4ahcS7HWEfj7osDxKwop9Lt7inVQ74r0ixkOSnrdvaRrdH3A oflm+kySurnlFbFBxq99SLvTC5CUpdQwUilGoKPAYmpLBmNaHJvxfHOEGvaCGAOx +F6MJeyke0qRKZOM7vJb4nLRLlVt/PNZ6DpDsjSgIAK4YZyBwHR9u2ZZmeD6KRsD fJ6qILpE5dn+5pLCVGqE2vk7s+AEnou+6FGZJc1GmW/JPzEvw7mbOT/IfvJwBqmW wBlGr3J/0Ystkz8wmpc+UuPKgmje3fRPLQDTMeSY6q3oDte2MSe+hFa0T2dc19bJ O7YWKWGheJQhyC1pKOSi3vOM7GwnQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheelgdduheehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvedtgfettefgffevheetvddugedugfelveeftdelveetgfef gefggfefledukeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:58:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <677fdd15-5829-dbf6-6c84-857d5af76fa3@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:58:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:58:25 -0000 On 11/29/21 2:54 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 29/11/2021 21:47, Adam Roach wrote: >> Stephen: among others that I can't find as quickly, there's this message: > > Thanks. But wasn't that accompanied by discussion a) that it > wasn't a great analogy and b) as to how constitutions change. > > A claim that the text below means everyone who wants e.g. > Brian's text, considers that sacrosanct is not IMO at all > a reasonable description of recent list traffic. Adam did say: "some people are implying (or outright stating)..." (not *all* people). At this point I don't think we can say all people in these threads agree on anything. ;-) Peter From nobody Mon Nov 29 13:59:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D47A3A046B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8VznuYkvm4A for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E2043A00AF for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFAA436DD03; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FaI4eH46bHZf; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B7F5436DD01; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:59:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <228295EF-7FC4-4CBF-92A6-6F1CA1212EBC@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_80CA8B76-4FE1-425A-913F-1FC1B7A00751" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:59:43 +1300 In-Reply-To: <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "Joel M. Halpern" , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:59:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_80CA8B76-4FE1-425A-913F-1FC1B7A00751 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 30/11/2021, at 10:56 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 30/11/2021, at 10:36 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >>=20 >> On 11/18/2021 9:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> There=E2=80=99s a key point here that I don=E2=80=99t understand and = that I=E2=80=99m hoping someone can explain. Why do people think that = the RSWG is more likely to reach consensus on changing something like = =E2=80=98open access to RFCs=E2=80=99 than this group? >>=20 >>=20 >> Jay -- >>=20 >> I see two factors that are likely to drive people's perspectives = about whether these principles should be defined in the rfced-future = program or in the RSWG, and I don't think "likeliness of reaching = consensus on principles" is one of them. >>=20 >> The first factor is a practical consideration that this program was = established to quickly put in place a structure that could ensure = stewardship of the RFC series. Until it does so, we have the equivalent = of a "provisional government" for the series, left in something of a = holding pattern, and specifically constrained from making any strategic = decisions. It is now 20 months into this process, and we have a document = that arguably, after much work, meets the fundamental goal that the = program had at its outset. >>=20 >> Into this, we add a demonstrably controversial proposal to add = principles to the document; and, to complicate matters, the proposed = principles themselves are controversial. It is difficult to imagine = either of these issues resolved quickly, and each day we spend = attempting to resolve them results in another day delay in moving out of = our provisional holding pattern into a new model of governance. Reaching = consensus in the RSWG will not be faster or more likely to succeed, = because it will presumably have exactly the same personnel makeup as = this program; but neither will the conversation in the RSWG gate the = creation of the new governance structure. >>=20 >> The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or = outright stating) that by placing these principles into the document = that defines the new model itself, they become in some way sacrosanct, = and outside the purview of the RSWG to change. By contrast, principles = defined by the RSWG itself can't logically be beyond the RSWG's remit to = revise later. >>=20 >> This is a principle you sometimes see in lawmaking, where certain = provisions are put in place that require some extraordinary (and = frequently unattainable) preconditions to be met in order to ever be = revised. There was, for example, a recent constitutional amendment = passed in Texas -- which has never had a state income tax -- requiring a = 2/3rds majority of the legislature to *ever* enact an income tax, rather = than the simple majority that any other lawmaking generally requires. >>=20 >> This kind of action can be seen either as a benevolent attempt to = lock in some fundamental properties that we believe will protect the = community from harmful future changes, or as a paternalistic attempt to = protect future versions of the community from itself by exerting the = will of the (by that future point in time) minority of people who = happened to have a majority position at some potentially long-past point = in time. I suspect the core of the tussle we're seeing right now has to = do with which of these two perspectives various program participants = have. >=20 > Thanks Adam, that=E2=80=99s a well articulated summary. >=20 > My question though was slightly different so let me try expressing it = better - there are some who are concerned that the RSWG will go ahead = and agree changes that break some fundamental principles that this group = would never agree to, Sorry that=E2=80=99s still not clear - I mean "the RSWG will go ahead = and agree changes that this group would never agree to, because they = break what some consider to be fundamental principles". Jay > and so seek to protect those fundamental principles now to limit that. = My question was, how could it be apparently so much easier for the RSWG = to reach consensus on something that breaks these principles when there = are people in this group who are strongly supportive of those = principles? Or to put it more bluntly and borrowing a phrase from Rich = Salz - if we didn=E2=80=99t have this bar fight in this group then = wouldn=E2=80=99t we just have it in the RSWG, what=E2=80=99s different? >=20 > The two answers I=E2=80=99ve had offlist are that a) such change could = happen by stealth/accident if the principles are not pre-defined; and b) = the dynamics of the RSWG will be very different from the dynamics of = this group potentially leading to some strongly supported positions here = being declared as in the rough in the RSWG. =20 >=20 > Jay >=20 >>=20 >> /a >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_80CA8B76-4FE1-425A-913F-1FC1B7A00751 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 30/11/2021, at 10:56 AM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:



On 30/11/2021, at 10:36 AM, Adam = Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

On= 11/18/2021 9:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote:
There=E2=80=99s a key point here that I don=E2=80= =99t understand and that I=E2=80=99m hoping someone can explain. Why do = people think that the RSWG is more likely to reach consensus on changing = something like =E2=80=98open access to RFCs=E2=80=99 than this group?


Jay --

I see two factors that are likely to drive = people's perspectives about whether these principles should be defined = in the rfced-future program or in the RSWG, and I don't think = "likeliness of reaching consensus on principles" is one of them.

The first factor is a practical consideration = that this program was established to quickly put in place a structure = that could ensure stewardship of the RFC series. Until it does so, we = have the equivalent of a "provisional government" for the series, left = in something of a holding pattern, and specifically constrained from = making any strategic decisions. It is now 20 months into this process, = and we have a document that arguably, after much work, meets the = fundamental goal that the program had at its outset.

Into this, we add a demonstrably controversial proposal to = add principles to the document; and, to complicate matters, the proposed = principles themselves are controversial. It is difficult to imagine = either of these issues resolved quickly, and each day we spend = attempting to resolve them results in another day delay in moving out of = our provisional holding pattern into a new model of governance. Reaching = consensus in the RSWG will not be faster or more likely to succeed, = because it will presumably have exactly the same personnel makeup as = this program; but neither will the conversation in the RSWG gate the = creation of the new governance structure.

The= second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or outright = stating) that by placing these principles into the document that defines = the new model itself, they become in some way sacrosanct, and outside = the purview of the RSWG to change. By contrast, principles defined by = the RSWG itself can't logically be beyond the RSWG's remit to revise = later.

This is a principle you sometimes = see in lawmaking, where certain provisions are put in place that require = some extraordinary (and frequently unattainable) preconditions to be met = in order to ever be revised. There was, for example, a recent = constitutional amendment passed in Texas -- which has never had a state = income tax -- requiring a 2/3rds majority of the legislature to *ever* = enact an income tax, rather than the simple majority that any other = lawmaking generally requires.

This kind of = action can be seen either as a benevolent attempt to lock in some = fundamental properties that we believe will protect the community from = harmful future changes, or as a paternalistic attempt to protect future = versions of the community from itself by exerting the will of the (by = that future point in time) minority of people who happened to have a = majority position at some potentially long-past point in time. I suspect = the core of the tussle we're seeing right now has to do with which of = these two perspectives various program participants have.

Thanks Adam, that=E2=80=99s a well articulated = summary.

My question = though was slightly different so let me try expressing it better - there = are some who are concerned that the RSWG will go ahead and agree changes = that break some fundamental principles that this group would never agree = to,

Sorry = that=E2=80=99s still not clear - I mean "the RSWG will go ahead and = agree changes that this group would never agree to, because they break = what some consider to be fundamental principles".

Jay

and so seek to protect those fundamental principles now to = limit that.  My question was, how could it be apparently so much = easier for the RSWG to reach consensus on something that breaks these = principles when there are people in this group who are strongly = supportive of those principles? Or to put it more bluntly and borrowing = a phrase from Rich Salz - if we didn=E2=80=99t have this bar fight in = this group then wouldn=E2=80=99t we just have it in the RSWG, what=E2=80=99= s different?

The two = answers I=E2=80=99ve had offlist are that a) such change could happen by = stealth/accident if the principles are not pre-defined; and b) the = dynamics of the RSWG will be very different from the dynamics of this = group potentially leading to some strongly supported positions here = being declared as in the rough in the RSWG.  

Jay


/a


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive = Director
exec-director@ietf.org

-- Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_80CA8B76-4FE1-425A-913F-1FC1B7A00751-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:00:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1709E3A046B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FNJa3xcOQjBR for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A5923A09AE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J2zmX6WMkz1nw5Q; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:00:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638223212; bh=r93BGmRkqEKR8rWY4RfbdSIN/h84zv80jUrh+XTm5rA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=VpQxdBC/Vo9/hn9p8/WMUwvxGQI/iMhd5xtpbnAFme4SLOHswIrEJkBGd+zHkAyeQ 97ur0KlpXhUTxpN/SzNP38DhL8SSH2i2hF6S3B1aHgisLimcKmi673aWX6V6lxMUot XHk3t+l9QWyJgWqMRLNlvNFuJpeWcwsggKkHXFFo= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J2zmX12Vdz1nv1v; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:00:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:00:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:00:18 -0000 If I did not think the principles could be changed or itnerpretted, I would not have proposed text describing what I would like to see happen when such changes are introduced. And while my text introduces a higher bar, it does not introduce an insuperable bar, particularly if there is actual community support for the change. The words you chose for your description seem to misrepr3esent the opinions of the folks with whom you disagree. Yours, Joel On 11/29/2021 4:47 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 3:43 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hi Adam >> >> On 29/11/2021 21:36, Adam Roach wrote: >>> >>> The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or >>> outright stating) that by placing these principles into the document >>> that defines the new model itself, they become in some way >>> sacrosanct, and outside the purview of the RSWG to change. >> >> Where was that stated? I don't recall such. AFAIK everyone >> who wants this kind of text included understands that things >> can change later. "Sacrosanct" seems like a pretty inaccurate >> way to describe that. > > > Stephen: among others that I can't find as quickly, there's this message: > > On 11/22/2021 12:02 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >> One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in >> Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally >> subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak analogy, >> this document we're working on is a constitution, while the RSWG/RSAB >> will be writing laws subject to that constitution. > > > /a > > From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:02:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEFD3A053E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:02:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> <677fdd15-5829-dbf6-6c84-857d5af76fa3@stpeter.im> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <677fdd15-5829-dbf6-6c84-857d5af76fa3@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------4BUcq60CPRnO0O8eJ1VHyzED" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P18901CA0004.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::14) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPV6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:cf25:c2e:f89c:94c] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:cf25:c2e:f89c:94c) by DB6P18901CA0004.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4713.22 via Frontend Transport; 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:02:51 -0000 --------------4BUcq60CPRnO0O8eJ1VHyzED Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------IqDFgeMTpmldlg44TvrE30Z7"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <52cf394c-b00e-d968-6986-5219cda13cd3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h8sm19320760pfh.10.2021.11.29.14.02.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:03:01 -0800 (PST) To: Jay Daley , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "Joel M. Halpern" , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:02:56 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:03:09 -0000 This appears paradoxical, but it seems to me that writing things down rat= her than leaving them as folklore makes them *easier* for our successors = to change, not harder, whatever form of words we adopt. Regards Brian On 30-Nov-21 10:56, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 30/11/2021, at 10:36 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >> >> On 11/18/2021 9:29 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> There=E2=80=99s a key point here that I don=E2=80=99t understand and = that I=E2=80=99m hoping someone can explain. Why do people think that the=20 RSWG is more likely to reach consensus on changing something like =E2=80=98= open access to RFCs=E2=80=99 than this group? >> >> >> Jay -- >> >> I see two factors that are likely to drive people's perspectives about=20 whether these principles should be defined in the rfced-future program or=20 in the RSWG, and I don't think "likeliness of reaching consensus on princ= iples" is one of them. >> >> The first factor is a practical consideration that this program was es= tablished to quickly put in place a structure that could ensure stewardsh= ip of the RFC series. Until it does so, we have the equivalent of a "prov= isional government" for the series, left in something of a holding patter= n, and specifically constrained from making any strategic decisions. It i= s now 20 months into this process, and we have a document that arguably, = after much work, meets the fundamental goal that the program had at its o= utset. >> >> Into this, we add a demonstrably controversial proposal to add princip= les to the document; and, to complicate matters, the proposed principles = themselves are controversial. It is difficult to imagine either of these = issues resolved quickly, and each day we spend attempting to resolve them=20 results in another day delay in moving out of our provisional holding pat= tern into a new model of governance. Reaching consensus in the RSWG will = not be faster or more likely to succeed, because it will presumably have = exactly the same personnel makeup as this program; but neither will the c= onversation in the RSWG gate the creation of the new governance structure= =2E >> >> The second factor is one of effect: some people are implying (or outri= ght stating) that by placing these principles into the document that defi= nes the new model itself, they become in some way sacrosanct, and outside=20 the purview of the RSWG to change. By contrast, principles defined by the=20 RSWG itself can't logically be beyond the RSWG's remit to revise later. >> >> This is a principle you sometimes see in lawmaking, where certain prov= isions are put in place that require some extraordinary (and frequently u= nattainable) preconditions to be met in order to ever be revised. There w= as, for example, a recent constitutional amendment passed in Texas -- whi= ch has never had a state income tax -- requiring a 2/3rds majority of the=20 legislature to *ever* enact an income tax, rather than the simple majorit= y that any other lawmaking generally requires. >> >> This kind of action can be seen either as a benevolent attempt to lock=20 in some fundamental properties that we believe will protect the community=20 from harmful future changes, or as a paternalistic attempt to protect fut= ure versions of the community from itself by exerting the will of the (by=20 that future point in time) minority of people who happened to have a majo= rity position at some potentially long-past point in time. I suspect the = core of the tussle we're seeing right now has to do with which of these t= wo perspectives various program participants have. >=20 > Thanks Adam, that=E2=80=99s a well articulated summary. >=20 > My question though was slightly different so let me try expressing it b= etter - there are some who are concerned that the RSWG will go ahead and = agree changes that break some fundamental principles that this group woul= d never agree to, and so seek to protect those fundamental principles now=20 to limit that. My question was, how could it be apparently so much easie= r for the RSWG to reach consensus on something that breaks these principl= es when there are people in this group who are strongly supportive of tho= se principles? Or to put it more bluntly and borrowing a phrase from Rich=20 Salz - if we didn=E2=80=99t have this bar fight in this group then wouldn= =E2=80=99t we just have it in the RSWG, what=E2=80=99s different? >=20 > The two answers I=E2=80=99ve had offlist are that a) such change could = happen by stealth/accident if the principles are not pre-defined; and b) = the dynamics of the RSWG will be very different from the dynamics of this=20 group potentially leading to some strongly supported positions here being=20 declared as in the rough in the RSWG. >=20 > Jay >=20 >> >> /a >> >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:03:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730233A053E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:03:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:04:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638223465; bh=sXlAytPJQFBEbz11IYQGPoZnO+qDIRTIMrOBR8TCEYg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MwZSA7h9M3uP7Djo/jN2qWVaX/5TYZEIkSZMCqTfYuc2QPXUTOjc1Gw1u/rkcLSUd VtfoLXSEoYcw8XFhtZsVCiQcqZOmw9frzcHYwtosGuHH4KWnJUkxYqw1Du9oEvBcbP Z2v8g1cFajiHjAG/99+ct5ZLSvHjIyX9Gj08x/hU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Jay Daley Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <76cdc551-f65a-6a36-69e2-8e8227a0d802@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:04:19 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:04:40 -0000 On 11/29/2021 3:56 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > The two answers I’ve had offlist are that a) such change could happen by stealth/accident if the principles are not pre-defined; and b) the dynamics of the RSWG will be very different from the dynamics of this group potentially leading to some strongly supported positions here being declared as in the rough in the RSWG. I think that's a very short-term perspective on the matter, and I don't find either answer to have much explanatory power, unless those who supposedly feel strongly about the principles they currently advocate for now plan to disengage once the RSWG is formed. The longer-term view that at least I have is that constituencies evolve, and there's value in letting governance structures evolve with them rather than being constrained by the needs of what the community looked like 50 years ago. Setting higher bars for this evolution is simply one way to favor the needs of a legacy community over the contemporaneous community. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:04:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CE83A053E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:04:53 -0000 --------------eqigARgzUgOtMuGOIFnRW57B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ivq8bPdCkc1VEcr8dVDFG2e8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Eliot Lear , "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> <06a528cd-af53-76b9-d520-64ffdd6c865f@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --------------ivq8bPdCkc1VEcr8dVDFG2e8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------bfC2XPqfq5FpMVBbNHRvNHv3" --------------bfC2XPqfq5FpMVBbNHRvNHv3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDI5LzExLzIwMjEgMjI6MDMsIFNhbHosIFJpY2ggd3JvdGU6DQo+PiBJIHdvdWxk IGJlIGhhcHB5IHRvIHNlZSBib3RoIEpvZWwncyBhbmQgQnJpYW4ncyBmcmFnbWVudHMNCj4g 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with ESMTPS id D6BAF3A0A31 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATM8ft9071474 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:08:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638223723; bh=M3cKUcJ6PIbaazriPJhyxLoO11exnUKARXDt2tFuRKc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=qBK7fKsQBgRoD3Pb/NuISUIRKmB/ArIPUs6uYSpus/sjtN7ExFMxGdIQ9R1luB6KT i3bV1bCaKh4+VXLf8Eon4N6UMn7SnqPZVgc2kuQ9eKTCVMggpDAOFFyOAiawUdkw60 fIUZd0IwkRF8RkoE/gwERJbX73UOOpzWMhBXLceA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <15fb8ae5-21ee-c2e1-1850-a4124a90f71c@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:08:37 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:08:49 -0000 On 11/29/2021 4:00 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > If I did not think the principles could be changed or itnerpretted, I > would not have proposed text describing what I would like to see > happen when such changes are introduced.  And while my text introduces > a higher bar, it does not introduce an insuperable bar, particularly > if there is actual community support for the change. > > The words you chose for your description seem to misrepr3esent the > opinions of the folks with whom you disagree. I'm sorry if my summary didn't capture some of the nuance of "meta laws that are not generally subject to change within this process," and feel free to mentally replace "sacrosanct" with that phrase in my email. Regarding the difference between forbidding changes and making them difficult, I'll repeat what I said to Jay: constituencies evolve, and there's value in letting governance structures evolve with them rather than being constrained by the needs of what the community looked like 50 years ago. Even if not technically insurmountable, setting higher bars for this evolution is simply one way to favor the needs of a legacy community over the contemporaneous community. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:20:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A0C3A0AB6 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:20:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7qdZUtjbbHz for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db8eur05on2122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.20.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3706C3A0AB1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:20:43 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=UelDl5YgxgOC5bE8qmTYPibjkrwPDvV1uY26Bj1jeLuAeiHrBC7PgRnKEM+sn8SKXXSVdtWnUYyR43q9LHUFJcka7ieFZUALBFtJBMe1UG6pTAOmLY8RnMjj8CbbieC5lOuZ+PO7WwJEFXD7Ipa01PF6cV0rWLW0uqf/jG7gx/GjFQDFPINDKQdsWYciHxI7tj29avPwhfRR6lJkIjvU0+BmXxqL8M0ESZ39JjRrb+R6qXWsLYIiKotMkswG+qDQAEmH02SSrBnVwDOHlWdZD8V9/h7KHWeswIMYAtCI61lVChVsXak/YY+SLC6AbBgCOmt/BbeYMBv+N9PugU4h8g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=B6pKp7b8hCISCg3MuVMq2AGGfmT+TMHfZsntCTe33V0=; b=fn7miptTWxzK8JDC3sadH4MyPVzYI+9GuU5LHSBx+QJiTDzt5OI2Vs4PNjEfl5nbvsC7+7Yp1Sn4kUxpyDiSNOAXqhLo0UzyIRuELyoK4x/oyE+7eROEYgmRvdcy703DafTozsfPB8oy5Yx8gkl9YTNh117WywaRgqfPS1Ca2+ww1h/j0fpLS1ZfWuxFABJ+SkHdqe+aIUkp/I4zd7ibBAVkSjqnxwiMv6EffQgtgAM35ehYiUommpBSAirWIdLGZKWvdGRab9xU8v3GV/svURtS5sD19UAZVziIR8Lx75SCjkxmK1ltxUgyOmfGRlgaYzZNMBoqbdm8kN07WIG/cg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=B6pKp7b8hCISCg3MuVMq2AGGfmT+TMHfZsntCTe33V0=; b=QZnJH1GVqpqquL6CkIsQLm96RrE9d9lUtzjk3UXyfdorJrQyZGEbFjktbm8aqktJ90KYdwlMcsC41O6Y4+k/TmXG3mXmvRCIBbA6zV+3VLLoLKv01mi1iQNHdRzxrk82QApRnyzyOgesz97lJ9CltpZeqzkU2hOETQvVsZeE48bXqjchDrt04LxOtfZYxeIJM5MBO2xvROkRC+rf4CwsXyZJBZ/oFb/e79Iw2Wcx6fN3TB8z6DKv/QVaebETw2KYQarPXLV0DwM6BRRz6JhWdi2biUjm8RpzkM0cwfKF718h/H3VAlXUYPTVvpBk5Ftss1j5tcaYMoMKEG8xGlf3vg== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6809.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:1fa::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:20:40 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:20:40 +0000 Message-ID: <9e9e38ce-5f94-1c2d-ded1-ffe50a0037dd@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:20:38 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:20:49 -0000 --------------KlzC1EdAUYHpvAzqZ29drlMh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------UpPo3cFFTLlVWTLEZ6TyqQg4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <9e9e38ce-5f94-1c2d-ded1-ffe50a0037dd@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? 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KKiqoY/IxmmMIMhpYjOXzMP7fcObfb96h8/ElnREpEbqTspK1IAJXvtnT/aZR43hFhmiXljVAuB+ bVRAspY2IVdaHrZ2hY7wBf21jaZoN4/6cpkAwxQDi/NupoK8bf3l2PbJeY0E+14uQ4jRxi/t6HFd hljlC4VuHeDDnigSjJGLm1syeCe4nl8tZQDL2T9n1J1a1goAUGbnYwBIhLsK4VKFh6WZMpeQoYAT HJoeW/LiwgmZAjLfiz+sNqSOnrOBdqUEnKGgfLdsSoBGpmeTYM9h3Vqsb8PjhrhS+PIQMBnFElCc viDYFXN1ilgtiSJVFs+OcyRa0wbxGVfp3yOJY4CORrlJIyjWzcHDDZ+/VwZedoeRmsIwqBXbT/A/ SH1ihLMooGmJ7iJGt8haIR9RZr0C+G4gkAwvwwYYI8+No/KHt0LiiyfapCRli97z5RSt/w4pp9VZ tZNrQ3axyzRnD9BCpfSA1B+o4Y9DonR3eUlCSZ72JMHjPTOZpXeKAA7O3BumFCg5WDL40POSqlw5 +xHkpvrLXIorOfEpPCXnYh1nSgRkzUqOpRmev4hmXrEQOhlX6Sbabz52+tDl9pQWp4ps0ynVyInk eHU= =B5XZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------KlzC1EdAUYHpvAzqZ29drlMh-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:21:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944EF3A0ABD; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5joeUYODehkU; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 368003A0AB9; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATMKx6K073576 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:21:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638224461; bh=/yImqoH4rXEw3paBHudfSyb7YZFZ0IiDF8jOQ/Doj1o=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZYYZZGsW6fUuTrcFnWevUN/cc9vtk32Zs4sbBAKqVg7hve9N+MsG30sFN3vp/BzO0 BCHWROJAOECkFC1DqVoWrS/Re9CaJOt6Y8n+7cpf7tV0PImoIxdc9KruA0YK2HTwJN CvxbichMGSzqsWIFqTUyMAK+EnKf1fmk980W4SMA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "Joel M. Halpern" , Tommy Pauly , Stephen Farrell References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:20:55 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:21:18 -0000 On 11/29/2021 4:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > This appears paradoxical, but it seems to me that writing things down > rather than leaving them as folklore makes them *easier* for our > successors to change, not harder, whatever form of words we adopt. I see the general point you're making, and suspect it's even more true if these principles are written down by the RSWG. To be crystal clear: I'm not objecting to writing down basic principles for the series; I just don't think it's the role of this program to do so. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:22:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0901E3A0ABD for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uca64-CWiDty for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9CE03A0AB1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATMLpkj073742 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:21:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638224513; bh=fsMVYgdgvFLmZ7SRU3BrRP/ssO0ApyQQDXyIQ9KQ9Ns=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=gDsMhJ0leAoiBMLWaP7Sb5zUin280lsetsbg0gydnNTSeX1XEPX1ZzZCyzA6b8a9S vqJA3svaQWvgD2u/lz1U6p6nz+Ek4yRE95lU7GgA5oUQmpGH+KIjuXxcP54+7tzqcE fvrhTfjUqmrEIPHItaLP6Y+Y2KIb/3Gh0dIdRn38= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> <15fb8ae5-21ee-c2e1-1850-a4124a90f71c@nostrum.com> <9e9e38ce-5f94-1c2d-ded1-ffe50a0037dd@cs.tcd.ie> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <8dc39ae3-0f94-caf5-575b-939e778dc29a@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:21:47 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9e9e38ce-5f94-1c2d-ded1-ffe50a0037dd@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:22:02 -0000 On 11/29/2021 4:20 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > We're talking about now, not 50 years ago. I'm talking about 50 years in the future. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:23:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449603A0AC4 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9syNI2CQWpxG for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FCFD3A0AC1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id 8so18244783qtx.5 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sPVYO/Xl8FsiGg1w5c4R8XeRX6OaSU9Xosqij3Djnlk=; b=hkvC4eVFlgHLjG2I68QUNNR2qZri8Lk+e0bsvptxcjsO79aA0D3cwv9uY0QA/pB8Up 5cn9u4G7rRFwITQJcDZachcRkzCdnNsXBMBFCUn12sQe8LSHngxQiO8TfbAuOc5nKxEd /uIu8z8pUAg/Pz78LP1xv3nbZJjmG/fgx0ctz9cnS45P6XMoc7A7BTKLYrhTS0ADiqHJ KxcUwRI6OLq3QsYc7IrbSqoPX4upoKZIyz3uiOk4V94OHOPl83l9OiyoaciQmZK3xBS3 jgFGl1twlwpVl9pMIzONGjBl+FKDMZj21tsvWK7IvaF7z5m0mGNk6aGvdDI9BKdoylY0 Kdmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sPVYO/Xl8FsiGg1w5c4R8XeRX6OaSU9Xosqij3Djnlk=; b=PQfAiJZ3tC6qs7838sDSneVbBC87TRt+KbkpM40yVCpBKskjnSgQxmTsZ8HVgpwUpi xineU7tDCGuOwiYXgeC18KgOTMngdlNi1K4e7t9DaWBHgytkxzbaQkuVR1WQGz+X0unU fmr5XgpHlQmwnhuyVHvDKmCXBEhbftZ7RqqRKYlRg8v61w5uP5aplYpHogMHtZ8b/PFV Lid6qrNygzOIjmY8MyP0gCcsFw2LvsfFjBaANcre/QbJx5/UbHj+ui0pYNmOoNiuFZWy 3PN0R7BiVY8TuI7dT6RMHYLOwpcIkwX/aTFRYaM//eIT3PeDoSs/WxeYgw2b9UFb6D9D IjwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TYrelznBrC9qdPZV8kkVBdzJMtmvVgLN3SdLgkwNJDuEDsijv l35zZ/bAgWrx0/FyysajlGfs9u+KY7WvJ0lQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyMBHTjpxc0g5+HsyLNWRsiSjqOnAZbbxXTCOfaJ3oe7EmBUaWZ1JG7NfQXYUebNielp/qNQQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1450:: with SMTP id v16mr47372185qtx.367.1638224630810; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.23] (pool-108-51-200-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w10sm9479200qtj.37.2021.11.29.14.23.50 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:23:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:23:56 -0000 On 11/29/2021 4:54 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 29/11/2021 21:47, Adam Roach wrote: >> Stephen: among others that I can't find as quickly, there's this message: >> > > Thanks. But wasn't that accompanied by discussion a) that it > wasn't a great analogy and b) as to how constitutions change. > > A claim that the text below means everyone who wants e.g. > Brian's text, considers that sacrosanct is not IMO at all > a reasonable description of recent list traffic. > >> On 11/22/2021 12:02 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>> One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in >>> Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally >>> subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak >>> analogy, this document we're working on is a constitution, while the >>> RSWG/RSAB will be writing laws subject to that constitution. > > FWIW, I don't agree that changes to the text proposed are > not subject to change via the RSWG, it's just, as I think > has been stated often, that additional care is needed. To put it slightly differently, changes to "the text proposed" can originate in the RSWG and be approved by the RSAB, but that might not be sufficient in all cases to permit their publication and adoption.   I.e., "additional care is needed". Mike > > Cheers, > S. > > From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:33:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341E63A061B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:33:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=tetqUnRl; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=T3VChsMN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hPnILzUnxqhQ for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C1593A060A for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18CF32005BC; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:33:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=P nTkYKb85uxaZRcJNQFzDtQeH6LUZBKwadQcF+Fso7o=; b=tetqUnRlM4ePc7dTU 2n0E+2/v3fnFgWPMU0IxpVXMpCS6Kda+r1k8jfbWRJzJdWx6boXSsUQ66HzCjgqk QDPYu3iYQ1mvThBFpD9FNvoCJyEcenZv8TKw3hiVAhC2lvbkxfHaKCjra2KbW9Jq FxYC17Dm94bYJxA79fD75lOqo2JFiQxp6ct+R8F9PS/7AuSvsisPbcAd/Aw5TRFd wnSXVE98SqtUNmn6MuSmZtNv6ymifrrHF5maFJGN1Mnt0H82DT9ezrE6eAy3gCTz nnrM4x/T+GOqT6S9XBaSN29t1Ov33S0WhSBR+4MU7pYcgLSrdNTLzcOrNoNrXveZ kr1tQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=PnTkYKb85uxaZRcJNQFzDtQeH6LUZBKwadQcF+Fso 7o=; b=T3VChsMN7L+znQ1l+k/q+r95Uy7abCIJZ/cJHfBKkB5agBfqiBpBv49Ns z7FS052IU+owan5Y5bWy8kN+vAa8RTrY6Z046iMszDQ7vHnmOlbo4i0tek9mm5P5 rCX6igpGWzv01KePVuniIJWfWVlwIZ0MtMjdo6eDP9NRwFBHFfLqjO213T0uywbZ i+dFgA6nuoQk2GsZSy8vu5Fuc6OeXOAL/MqISUwophvIeHG6Pn85ELH2WyCZRw12 Et00jXNLECYIwbcVYkJRDTsKV2ErNag8GmQqhXnqYh7TZOEURyPxEQeRUyuUqd+X J1mUG22a23TUE+UUIF3YP9mkpAQig== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheelgdduiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgv thgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevtdfgteetgfffve ehtedvudegudfgleevfedtleevtefgfeeggffgfeeludekheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvg hrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:33:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <66059d04-b7e2-4f3f-45b8-f9817b4746b7@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:33:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <73e9d510-6bc7-17c6-ac10-208f04270f51@cs.tcd.ie> <2f4b9ab5-2231-9617-1559-746df3c51e12@nostrum.com> <9bd9c2ea-035d-be06-85b0-7699eb220172@cs.tcd.ie> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:33:36 -0000 On 11/29/21 3:23 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > On 11/29/2021 4:54 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> On 29/11/2021 21:47, Adam Roach wrote: >>> On 11/22/2021 12:02 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: >>>> One of the key items in my formulation (and I think hidden a bit in >>>> Joel's) is that principles are meta laws that are not generally >>>> subject to change within this process.  To use a fairly weak >>>> analogy, this document we're working on is a constitution, while the >>>> RSWG/RSAB will be writing laws subject to that constitution. >> >> FWIW, I don't agree that changes to the text proposed are >> not subject to change via the RSWG, it's just, as I think >> has been stated often, that additional care is needed. > > To put it slightly differently, changes to "the text proposed" can > originate in the RSWG and be approved by the RSAB, but that might not be > sufficient in all cases to permit their publication and adoption. I.e., > "additional care is needed". What I hear Adam saying is that there's a difference between "please take care about this" and "you need a super-majority to change this". Peter From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:38:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6949C3A074B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:38:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=NSkS0vHQ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YGJFc/N4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QefQy5IePiRv for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A55663A061B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D653201F5E; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=x i4R2o1xhOLtjSR5NRgQLpJ3+o9iG4bIQfoyLfStJ/4=; b=NSkS0vHQRoECAAH6K yxKo9J1MxVbuSRgZI0s79WWoNciFwar/KP0LpJZVkQqd6Hd1KisKrVgT9cByGhqD Lj9Mq+7rABw6BW2f41vZg/t7v+tsh75U0Nh9FM/Xzln9X5X0sEDCogCl6Son+WSH sNQVlWunHO3FJ6NqvbAX7EfzgkCN1JrQpYbVzL8TTpLirfC3Zrgtc2Pd2/Avskg3 74em28WiwlQHFN+KBxXXU9qtez4o92FxgVkdBpUIMfF5OO7ys8uDD+nF/4C26zZr 9X1flZV8t0dIS9ohvBiW7SSLjSjpoNki45m6OMuCivD5lOk49S3whtOqn60B/qDa uPAMw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xi4R2o1xhOLtjSR5NRgQLpJ3+o9iG4bIQfoyLfStJ /4=; b=YGJFc/N46lLFDzr7IocdYlbSCoUleeZERr+hnyaV2QYf7OF45OsGkzQpB dzLOxjawrV1deDYQ0WasYRehzdGNeKchgU6JgWueaGOgB15VU2MGJ0vnawdJWRBu kRsXZfw4LbkxLXX7mP3XtATncasNZ0VnMpBOgb++vR8l4fTrqVEAdcpDapH6IW0V 9LuZdC5JN8+ANrfVwZyZ+94KIXwWXKf5KG7L/sPqFVdQyqshxJBoxVNULXptjnEx +o/WPcKH0dt19EI5391Uo12iZ4o2S6XBSTLe1Xzl5RQxhK3epjCU564GcLAs7YtV kQRL+nv0ktN+wK2SaESsNd6RssX9Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrheelgdduieefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv rhcuufgrihhnthdqtehnughrvgcuoehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheethfdvjedvhfegteeghfefuedufeektedvhfekleelueeh feelkeekkeeiffdunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:38:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:38:21 -0000 On 11/29/21 3:20 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 4:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> This appears paradoxical, but it seems to me that writing things down >> rather than leaving them as folklore makes them *easier* for our >> successors to change, not harder, whatever form of words we adopt. > > > I see the general point you're making, and suspect it's even more true > if these principles are written down by the RSWG. > > To be crystal clear: I'm not objecting to writing down basic principles > for the series; I just don't think it's the role of this program to do so. This is my feeling as well. In particular, I'm concerned about blowing up this Program and our progress (dare I even say consensus) on the governance process. 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:46:21 -0000 --------------qG6vsyyH9YizLH5jTmWkh70Y Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------yCHeyIlzUuk1J02l7OVw5cSR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "Joel M. Halpern" , Tommy Pauly Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? 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wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGlWCwFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+o7 Lw/+M6WmcLP+bnj7T0uN6BqJJSB4ERGWs1QQQOzpLb8YQrLCycsKOUOUwTTdqxTM8btPYXrr6U9T 8VCudI7J0fsIkmv3t6fBXJGbcQYS5NJCHcGgpsvb9Q6Kx507weKY7KaIJCczwXTE6w61J/aYYJlu Z43FeJZkMi8Xdqh7z7opStDQGkDf6AoTaPnr+scA7DubE8KaWwIQBvfMypyNHxm8ltDgOoUsPOKT 2hWHwDVb5xXU6SBAV/nkFAhE93gBqlbygTulxEfRcBpu35PkMyh2x1flyPCVk7tCbTUy4/di4Bla FLKXy44PIBPUlF2LBH3vf57qc61Ljy+e9cf4HjaJR+Zmr6BEJUlEaRgbuLlhRZinZzofLv4CQXm+ IKJwV3EQf4JbC3yX2NbpMG+2ZfbdVcL+cXe6moXJyT9zjoVKtpfIPh1gnB9vAhB7djBVIJuaEJZ/ OgNWsJ5oXR/FBvFaoQfhl/DU6GFA0ec0Bo/d2Dl2zsWrVPEw0M5HEmXHEZjO5tcSQYUsOZ6XzpvV zzF+rxRF7y+EeIGVFb0Vb7nEk5Bwj5V7KxrtQOdjLJIAOohXtUjkwdxYo0NUm94uSbbpfXxP1P12 dgqLcTFo32aCKcE5Z7jC85UWijdx6PvtdSFflrGwGX9dIzgkkw9ziF0aAoEM4oPXMPGMs68ccVBv 3T8= =Fk3i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------qG6vsyyH9YizLH5jTmWkh70Y-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:56:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D35E3A07BA for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BtwujcykE0r1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FD613A07B2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052A5436DD01 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILapW97_i4Lh for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C86641599B9 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:56:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:56:26 +1300 To: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Setting the bar but not the principles X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:56:37 -0000 I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of = principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles can = be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles = themselves? e.g > If the RSAB considers that an RSWG documents defines, redefines or = removes principles that govern the RFC series, or significantly changes = the way previously defined principles are realized, then RSAB members = are expected to pay particular attention to the following when reviewing = the document: >=20 > a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the = RFC series; and=20 > b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment in = the larger community affected by the RFC Series >=20 > The RSAB must also confirm that the IESG, IAB and LLC do not object to = approval of the document. (The text above is just a strawman to illustrate what such text might = look like, not proposed text). --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 29 14:57:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFAC3A0A5E; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7Un0E4OsdFr; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95B0E3A07BE; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATMvLTx079638 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:57:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638226643; bh=Rl/2pCIc0KJdcmPVAxVhIoUfMEF0c+MpDLD4JtkzlWM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=jokE8MXrMqQDvboEZIF+b0QZprjMkqzy29nK+glq+Sq6zunF4Re+TqGu5T5o9iiAx ZwD/Cy2IvsVuQ9t1JNESLMQVbRqAcwgFIBblKiOiMA0Q5Cb4R6W2WWyE51NlZbimRf dQU7ACAKkjNahTsnjmPkpT6cfijun3Uc5qxc1uGw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , Brian E Carpenter , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "Joel M. Halpern" , Tommy Pauly References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:57:17 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:57:39 -0000 On 11/29/2021 4:46 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 29/11/2021 22:20, Adam Roach wrote: >> To be crystal clear: I'm not objecting to writing down basic >> principles for the series; > > A question: I don't understand how that's consistent with > your other points about not favouring today's opinions over > those of future people who'll be involved in the RSWG? Do > you really think it'd be any easier to change these kinds > of thing if done later by the RWSG and not now? Yes. I do. I covered this exact point in detail in my initial message today -- in fact, it comprises about half of the text in that message -- and you actually quoted the primary sentence that explains this in your response to that message. As per Joel's objection, I request that upon re-reading that sentence, you replace "sacrosanct" with the phrase "meta laws that are not generally subject to change within this process." /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 15:01:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522F43A07B3; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.701, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVq9D4Jeu6RL; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp35.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp35.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5CB03A0AE0; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp35.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp35.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1ATMw16G019916; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:13 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=HRQGrtqZbMzbyWTmCRE2ZBTLAzk0K6TK6zxYvl6Tlm4=; b=G9uvgft5NH5b51n3MKyfzQXlgRWxfhihICRVQDO/yPSnosHeB+vj6Pyc6ULBnXIYwLng r7BCMggZ0TlEWienrAqYjkvJz37bYa3UP0TM9E1lNai7sByapLle4XPmOLhuQDO3C9tV +WD0cgwRT0WIN8vKDGB55AbbIoSOlGbqTfamfESghMjUSuPg+ORqtPm3E0NohZMqIayr V6i+B1lMRoqTt+PmCD2jtEAm96GU522u9BFHmGIO6VeHLY6siotrwj+6GoIKUe2DYG2g 0VEreZciL2sJggStqiQVZbJZHOmzymHEtfFdl4e8l0Q2NV7GkGoxsDYjra7kpZg+vv8A 0g== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp35.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3ckh3bsbfs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:13 -0800 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0R3C00EG7VY16590@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) id <0R3C00T00VRZF200@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:13 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 17f23edf7fafb8a0bea1fe0b7ed0b2a5 X-Va-E-CD: 1b0592fa44846e0f270bcbf17a7d5393 X-Va-R-CD: 61660402be23c69eabef4ed9515e18b8 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: bbad33a7-56be-4893-981d-1ca23b74a84b X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 17f23edf7fafb8a0bea1fe0b7ed0b2a5 X-V-E-CD: 1b0592fa44846e0f270bcbf17a7d5393 X-V-R-CD: 61660402be23c69eabef4ed9515e18b8 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: ce1268f4-064e-4ab2-9e5f-4a22347bdb5a X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-29_09:2021-11-28, 2021-11-29 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.234.6.52]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.12.20210903 64bit (built Sep 3 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0R3C00ZLHVY01Y00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:13 -0800 (PST) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:01:12 -0800 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <0577F64E-6122-4C19-8605-9158F5FE3B54@apple.com> References: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-11-29_09:2021-11-28, 2021-11-29 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Setting the bar but not the principles X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:01:19 -0000 That seems like a sensible solution for this particular document, yes. = It=E2=80=99s not changing the overall process, but rather adding extra = words of caution. I=E2=80=99m not sure about the particular phrase = "significantly changes the way previously defined principles are = realized=E2=80=9D, but that could be edited. Tommy > On Nov 29, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of = principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles can = be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles = themselves? >=20 > e.g >=20 >> If the RSAB considers that an RSWG documents defines, redefines or = removes principles that govern the RFC series, or significantly changes = the way previously defined principles are realized, then RSAB members = are expected to pay particular attention to the following when reviewing = the document: >>=20 >> a) whether the changes adversely affect the long term health of the = RFC series; and=20 >> b) whether the changes have received sufficient review and comment in = the larger community affected by the RFC Series >>=20 >> The RSAB must also confirm that the IESG, IAB and LLC do not object = to approval of the document. >=20 > (The text above is just a strawman to illustrate what such text might = look like, not proposed text). >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future From nobody Mon Nov 29 15:45:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439EF3A0B25 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:45:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KyIQbXd33brc for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88B0F3A0B32 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J325d19cdz1ntrZ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:45:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638229509; bh=sCEDpEOX+UULJBmBwMe/rnJlv5iqQaKq4RoPbNPEud4=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=AxHBk/BfGDEnIWRgKzWP7krau4Zh+0czvrJsYcbppC19ziel3TgkFtdKaekw6CDjW YwNEHq/ZRaYU9vgW5gfa7jPgVLq0eSFGPKxWUgN5dzTPHZ1vLumg7TUpBG4f5W4vZn gxRIXsAH1bAZ1GmArppqhERWn9cynvsqHdXOI+xA= X-Quarantine-ID: <12upyQyCMjg8> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J325b6D78z1nsng; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:45:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:45:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:45:14 -0000 I do not think that any of us fall into either the camp "this is what we do, and therefore must be kept" or "this is new and therefore must be better." However, I do have a bias against changing things that serve important purposes without careful examination and consultation. I presume (although I do not know) that you do not share this bias. So I am not asking that the bias itself be recorded in the document. But I do want something that effects that bias with regard to those things we can agree serve important purposes. And yes, I do think that it is our job to agree on those. Because that is tied to the structuring we create. Yours, Joel On 11/29/2021 5:57 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 4:46 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 29/11/2021 22:20, Adam Roach wrote: >>> To be crystal clear: I'm not objecting to writing down basic >>> principles for the series; >> >> A question: I don't understand how that's consistent with >> your other points about not favouring today's opinions over >> those of future people who'll be involved in the RSWG? Do >> you really think it'd be any easier to change these kinds >> of thing if done later by the RWSG and not now? > > > Yes. > > > I do. > > > I covered this exact point in detail in my initial message today -- in > fact, it comprises about half of the text in that message -- and you > actually quoted the primary sentence that explains this in your response > to that message. As per Joel's objection, I request that upon re-reading > that sentence, you replace "sacrosanct" with the phrase "meta laws that > are not generally subject to change within this process." > > /a > From nobody Mon Nov 29 15:59:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31413A0B54 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.931 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lwOCwJ7MzKrq for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C6293A0B5B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1ATNxQDk090390 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638230367; bh=Wjk4Ua2EXNRHYyGnOW6vdwYwKUA308a1tQP2QWzl5FU=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=LIDpKJu+fTO4cjS3pPp94we0uFanFERaXr+83+2X8S/uVgkSZQBcQi7TeBiPNzTaH K/3SE+KRnYHtZkIX9yVBYN6tMKh7PjGdzdueB1C2izRxvHd+WkddNz13kB7U/xE559 F5x0daiOLn/Pa/swLSHXCoOvBqmtfq9ethAtkj+o= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:22 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:59:35 -0000 On 11/29/2021 5:45 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > However, I do have a bias against changing things that serve important > purposes without careful examination and consultation.  I presume > (although I do not know) that you do not share this bias. That's not quite right, but I think it's safe to say that I'm likely to believe the process should be more nimble than it currently is. For example: work on the the RFC format change began in late 2012, and appears to be mostly (although not completely) concluded today, nearly 9 years later. I am solidly of the opinion that this is not the right balance of agility versus stability. > So I am not asking that the bias itself be recorded in the document. > But I do want something that effects that bias with regard to those > things we can agree serve important purposes. What's your take on Jay's most recent proposal? /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:05:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900ED3A0BBA for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:05:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hRW68HojijNe for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D7533A0B6F for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J32XY2CrJz1pKFv; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:05:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638230701; bh=QiGpGpweiIk/9+mx+rPijgJU8DQhO09JoFUe0Jt9R6w=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=f6NK6kfJXahkXIvYjqA5mhKFgjeJIQTQu7RTJO1RD3xSUNUChKIlTOvDOnthyPaxY ltXDnY4Sd+mRMZulfCVrNRIn571SxztWI/0IWLzbHUZhtoet6XzHD5qu+QJdiBnphN x8jRjIG90DWmehERM2ITtDRpTm5/eQBncfFaMjYA= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J32XX5T6fz1nsGZ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:05:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:04:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:05:13 -0000 I must have misread an email. I did not see a proposal on this issue from Jay. can you point me at it? Thank you, Joel On 11/29/2021 6:59 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 5:45 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> However, I do have a bias against changing things that serve important >> purposes without careful examination and consultation.  I presume >> (although I do not know) that you do not share this bias. > > > That's not quite right, but I think it's safe to say that I'm likely to > believe the process should be more nimble than it currently is. For > example: work on the the RFC format change began in late 2012, and > appears to be mostly (although not completely) concluded today, nearly 9 > years later. I am solidly of the opinion that this is not the right > balance of agility versus stability. > > >> So I am not asking that the bias itself be recorded in the document. >> But I do want something that effects that bias with regard to those >> things we can agree serve important purposes. > > > What's your take on Jay's most recent proposal? > > /a > From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:07:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C203A0B77 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:07:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.931 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qquTtSWa2wJ3 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C483A0B6F for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU079KC091660 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:07:10 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638230830; bh=Cw+yD+LeL6wvxbl9iUDLMOK/4617A3hR6vQDq/bYTNk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=F6qfzWFGbrBruGg4T0mhFwpspmGtrke15scWYQLSdvCq1oodhuAEe8DrzOqYK+vTu dk+l6K9P73UsAlj3ke8Lgjn4/9cBa81BNEjL5tlLz+F652LoSWLmL/AHDTkVm8zJ5l vzt7A/Qk/6SeHldudQkwy1Br7oQHbqm5W9X3ulmc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:07:05 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:07:18 -0000 On 11/29/2021 6:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I must have misread an email.  I did not see a proposal on this issue > from Jay.  can you point me at it? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/CPKDxkV1DxvV6hlXsLrVf5sHF0Q/ /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:10:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9705A3A0B85 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bvg290yVStki for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr150130.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.15.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74F5F3A0B87 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:10:48 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=MT20a+nnhxCj6AeIsNHdI8iKREIrs+5Upy+/s01L35w2VksAH3GVCATkdV36h/8OsoKKZFzrYkTqhd2VUB+UFUjnIMgT/nAwZngxpRoEGmFm6LNquswQh7XvqdKo89sAcwJfXLFDyQv4XC6cDFmboqNQfSSU7MEcTSgZD1Yg8HJJHtEl1ecp5MagJDsHWDWo5QOv6MBsjn01Pu3sVflw4sM5S4IdA7n3tfeis3X3avQe4l1naoDdEcN3IjKtboAjBOQvdyO06O8qLOQBN1pixB8X/ynfcu5V5McV0htdEG4CHoULlK/xqFnuSHyIgETlOWOCsbCy0clOiTl/pdfLRw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ZtR/pFXdQoyaqHqHUHxBo0lBCE1eW4T8Wiq911m/0Rw=; b=NQIy0B+5RVfM8m+FU1kl4LI/I8hngHz8aUKozY5fRn9rhdT8UYXlA+/dw9pL2FQp4bJoqXo3PEdvT7Ylchbzw3m5H0PW7pbSy3QGSrBESescREoHtIlnYkAdFFMkqB6NM4zMh/ApqMCo8R7Kg+Ph7srBu7z7ciuzxVstkIlft5MOE/lxNalJ2/9LS61JI1EPnO89KhyhQpzn2VaNlzCV335saSwNA+20lToyYdiusSzdRBzweYzqm77Cgs4hu3VoJ5FkIG7OG7sm8EUwcNcIXJyurg/CtU7VucHXlhCB7mEREHENMeUAq9c/3vFBuZTEnyERIK53iQjQIL5dAnQ3dg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZtR/pFXdQoyaqHqHUHxBo0lBCE1eW4T8Wiq911m/0Rw=; b=MxF90wpZtTCn0G8M5e33kF8pAGlV7laQ+E92ZghmcT95ssADRbdOBnSJjrIuvhnhJS54YgyQ5kLPmXIj/yMOMsWg6mWGC3rkhRsQpNHPI2eK+fj6a+OH8SGElRhr3J+DvjQSnIA6t+t6EtAoAe71cWSHKkf4/H2yXUexLgfTr9B+LOW4TlRQMthDMdkNkiXsvvoKyc0x1eqAkWdjlQFaxkV6fTP3RkRa1i1I+Rjr+/V4QM+MXHtcS+q1nBlU46Df4RaAYRbiiJw2WZdAcCylnaBaRxhuC7EJohG5hv085JWwB9fyNs5ByQxYflFh+Teb2KoWbuuLqHL1GmY8aJGnLA== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6842.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:21d::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:10:40 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:10:40 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:10:38 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:10:54 -0000 --------------qp9IyDb05mXr0XHN1ISxvbx1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------xw10EaxfIZboDwuIOMYenWHs"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: --------------xw10EaxfIZboDwuIOMYenWHs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------i2osYAqeSPFxnewwFZCxQ11Y" --------------i2osYAqeSPFxnewwFZCxQ11Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDI5LzExLzIwMjEgMjM6NTksIEFkYW0gUm9hY2ggd3JvdGU6DQo+IEZvciBleGFt cGxlOiB3b3JrIG9uIHRoZSB0aGUgUkZDIGZvcm1hdCBjaGFuZ2UgYmVnYW4gaW4gbGF0ZSAy MDEyLCBhbmQgDQo+IGFwcGVhcnMgdG8gYmUgbW9zdGx5IChhbHRob3VnaCBub3QgY29tcGxl dGVseSkgY29uY2x1ZGVkIHRvZGF5LCBuZWFybHkgOSANCj4geWVhcnMgbGF0ZXIuIEkgYW0g 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ESMTPSA id 4J32sL0ncgz1nxRl; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:19:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:19:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:19:42 -0000 The proposal I see is: I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles can be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles themselves? For me, that is not effective. It defines a process for some set of principles which may some day exist. But does not make that process apply to anything. Hence, I do not see what putting that in this document would accomplish. Yours, Joel On 11/29/2021 7:07 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > > On 11/29/2021 6:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I must have misread an email.  I did not see a proposal on this issue >> from Jay.  can you point me at it? > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/CPKDxkV1DxvV6hlXsLrVf5sHF0Q/ > > > /a > From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:26:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA9B3A0BB2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:26:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GGnVLwe1qGqn for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A3C23A0BB0 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU0Psbn095066 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:25:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638231956; bh=hpmmNdVEF9Leleun2YMLO+7k5AdF1x7ZrJ3AOFgNOGE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZkSc5ZGxV/Ix8tgu5vTc+xaecXSy0w2BNJOERJCW/Vek4x043da5mlntV6wvDxTrl 03h0Zst0uLa5gqFzgjfDnZ6tLv4GEvCGwlT4Af5ygvq55naAvRYe1jNsVopU1L51NZ ve/EstYUbLLhy1xki6DLSw3oq8sUJnFYwsWpFdY0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: Stephen Farrell , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:25:50 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:26:07 -0000 On 11/29/2021 6:10 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 29/11/2021 23:59, Adam Roach wrote: >> For example: work on the the RFC format change began in late 2012, >> and appears to be mostly (although not completely) concluded today, >> nearly 9 years later. I am solidly of the opinion that this is not >> the right balance of agility versus stability. > > That's a fair point. Way more nimble that that seems totally > sensible. That said, I'm not sure any of the principles I'd > argue to include that caused that delay. It is, however, trivially easy to imagine, had we attempted to define such principles some while back, that they would contain language that says roughly "RFCs are copied by the interested people and printed or displayed at their site on their equipment. This means that the format of the online files must meet the constraints of a wide variety of printing and display equipment. To this end, the character codes used in RFCs are ASCII; each page must be limited to 58 lines followed by a form-feed on a line by itself; and each line must be limited to 72 characters followed by a carriage return and line feed. No overstriking or underlining is allowed." That was an incredibly sensible thing to say when RFC 825 was published, and people probably would have agreed to it as a bedrock principle. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:34:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7593A0BDB for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.931 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQbMtSmT7tS2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7FD03A0BC5 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU0Y3Jr096523 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:34:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638232444; bh=mwV2Aiueb9xMrRb/8e3fkfjiwYvfFJoFeaYsUDjEVVU=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=TayD8GCfFFSb4GEK7yywvm+u6PFKZWKguf+5+Dx7ZBNpBlDWMRZunFESi8ygFps6J qAxhV2tlndTIHWFjS7eLS2EyCOKwM23ApfjCrBKo4cczxRE2R0BTJ2XqEdn65ph5Hz yb4/p0Amsk5XEIbS7Wn9uTBXZFvokzczaBfm90NA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <2aef4763-86e6-2e5d-1f71-cd2973aebb42@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:33:58 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:34:10 -0000 The primary thing that it does -- which is why I asked in this context -- is provide the kind of ballast "against changing things that serve important purposes without careful examination and consultation." To be clear, I'm not 100% sold, in large part because I'm concerned we're likely not to agree on exactly what that ballast should look like (I'm willing to give it a go if others are). However, if it's a compromise that we could all move forward with, then I could probably live with it for the primary reason that it gets us out of the temporary holding pattern for RFC governance more quickly; and for the secondary reason that it at least establishes a consistent baseline for changing principles rather than having ad-hoc per-principle guidelines about what it might take to change something. But if you don't see value in that, I guess we're back where we were. /a On 11/29/2021 6:19 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > The proposal I see is: > I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of > principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles > can be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles > themselves? > > For me, that is not effective.  It defines a process for some set of > principles which may some day exist.  But does not make that process > apply to anything.  Hence, I do not see what putting that in this > document would accomplish. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/29/2021 7:07 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> >> On 11/29/2021 6:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> I must have misread an email.  I did not see a proposal on this >>> issue from Jay.  can you point me at it? >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/CPKDxkV1DxvV6hlXsLrVf5sHF0Q/ >> >> >> /a >> From nobody Mon Nov 29 16:34:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B07F3A0BD2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NgEdhdI9XK7y for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0673A0BC5 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:34:33 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=jedPdRXSsMap6TgvGkoTqab3fkCl1gYQV3sErZqSNaqC+NnVXhL1hKgfQ9I9VhzWIIk9yrmks2c166T93mnNzyIKogs5Nq13YEq5Yk9HIrOIVxDF/B/hzGSW8rSZNoNd6cAgFL5qd71CWzBpOY5Eh5ac0ll8++H356Jw/Rabex2kL84yP8Hv9rir43r0AVOpB7m6eMI/tzgiI7fQmYzDcO4h+EI+4pJ07xsITP2CwOo28RE1KnyXafb+CpR2bsEbVDCuXsrbtUlqYRsva4Fz2yG+PUlhhT/Fhbf+q3A0076vEmifSwT5SZnOoxeyteRh2bDxXPTJDzKfg+DjC00Giw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=VquAddtZ3DCwpZePYz8t93BxPJ5M4necvGg0JW5IKJo=; b=T1VIcbnTnGDLA7e/N8NMZJkPGh95KO8jFgu7Sz39KX/Y4To7fw8HFOZq2RYu9f9hthYjK5Omf5Adl9Hhh3aF9yydT8j6lsLcjqdVMc2cMyAEm4pWYNgdn5nejNm6VM5BQSgjj8b8KLDz0pqU8Dy5zTjqjQUaH+NoV8NMmr9/avkupRZ3hnOEDR70OanCvfmNFf0F57FVw/3f+ktpSSP3y5EdKy1Bk/tlIkzzBxuYJWMYsVbKihk95O0w/MwJu4QZGkMVxVywcquhcl+UVCMJJ1Hu99G9/RrkvflTVPIUY9nApzbr6nPBJST5NEOmJmGOelUmFNA0r7gZu8Sah/4nbg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VquAddtZ3DCwpZePYz8t93BxPJ5M4necvGg0JW5IKJo=; b=N3zhAc6a9AXNBuWeCChOUCXNWmkO0np9PaQY+ROTlPhsXcPLd4Xj3aar1GjQfrK8fdPkcC8OTiCHqNBhMIJ458YWW3xZ83WEQrNk0QXQOTQ/EVW9PXJb92lUhGKOrTiScZ4zQVWRwOjjoyOXvL/iNXM8Z1K3M/PWDym/cXLcDVa49F+kmoBu9uwPitDxCGdwU5xeZsYPPz0/CFnaJfW5jZi5OOpwgiwcTF9Vr92wIHAEtaL+byR+4295eH4G/LQAvKE1z5idlloLqr0gPjMsXdNsKvs7YZ0siCxwebvsUUS349tuZX++/dCNaokOBARh0t2z+KrVqzI9s9qPlf0vQQ== Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0202MB2968.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:aa::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:34:29 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:34:29 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:34:27 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------wLdwZyUh9At9T4Zc7hGZqbsQ" X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P123CA0019.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:151::6) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPV6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:cf25:c2e:f89c:94c] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:cf25:c2e:f89c:94c) by LO4P123CA0019.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:151::6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.21 via Frontend Transport; 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:34:40 -0000 --------------wLdwZyUh9At9T4Zc7hGZqbsQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------iIaZTygy7yYM7LLgfy0XiCcc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> --------------iIaZTygy7yYM7LLgfy0XiCcc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RBVKaHqCcJnP1FJB2r7Xe0C8" --------------RBVKaHqCcJnP1FJB2r7Xe0C8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDMwLzExLzIwMjEgMDA6MjUsIEFkYW0gUm9hY2ggd3JvdGU6DQo+IE9uIDExLzI5 LzIwMjEgNjoxMCBQTSwgU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4NCj4+DQo+PiBPbiAy OS8xMS8yMDIxIDIzOjU5LCBBZGFtIFJvYWNoIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4+IEZvciBleGFtcGxlOiB3 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--------------RBVKaHqCcJnP1FJB2r7Xe0C8-- --------------iIaZTygy7yYM7LLgfy0XiCcc-- --------------wLdwZyUh9At9T4Zc7hGZqbsQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGlcZMFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+oQ JA/7BdLkf8D8xlI/uQVpZut0UmgUAirAV6wV4i6Nlu3UnbTsWD0gQyXXNF0K7jO4Zl9Fro+0R1NG 45vBcB3exhHE+q4P6W8y4lS8tAUC9nAXhdzxlIBS3dfqK4uaA0ikv3M61RR3978Vp3hjuMPdPv0M XJoRD43wa6TkgOt4QJMu3iV9cOM9H9YVVah1lWl9HAWS3BwTCiRpRFSRqrSrX8VLhO8D3JkFlFgj 8XRY3LxoE2nurzM445x+hNQ02A8AJzCWuYP2AlaTkro5YJFkBJMqcQpJKihumtlTS/9d5b3oaThj 5aCgu0Ts4LyZG11oXLuUGl8mYQTf++OWtNb/o/RuRZqvXf0I3xqDuvzQ2juYhQhvyeGKQcjpbtPb ivc1p83WpsLFvzuXyZDCXDhyAZbqnobHEnKJ4RPFHIqOVYpfvifCy0gPCgFp9D3OnmmdRZEV6F06 r1/snuNGEl+1bbakMelt698nwwz5TQZy1jxHqN23gTy8c5CNOQ1ItpX/Ztzpn3ZeTJ30dnzWL0I1 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(ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504EC3A0BD2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A607436DD01; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GxQ8cqgtATDt; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7604436DCFB; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:35:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:35:00 +1300 Cc: Adam Roach , rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:35:12 -0000 Joel > On 30/11/2021, at 1:19 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > The proposal I see is: > I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of = principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles can = be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles = themselves? >=20 > For me, that is not effective. It defines a process for some set of = principles which may some day exist. But does not make that process = apply to anything. Hence, I do not see what putting that in this = document would accomplish. A thought experiment - imagine there are two principles X and Y that you = want included in this document but we can only reach consensus that X is = included now not Y and we all agree that the document can move forward. = That then leaves the situation that principle X has the extra level of = protection that you would like to see, but not Y making it easier to = create policy that contradicts it. It=E2=80=99s also questionable = whether any process would exists by which Y could achieve that same = level of protection. Would that be a better outcome than my proposal? Jay >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/29/2021 7:07 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 11/29/2021 6:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> I must have misread an email. I did not see a proposal on this = issue from Jay. can you point me at it? >> = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/CPKDxkV1DxvV6hlXsLrVf5s= HF0Q/ /a >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 29 17:06:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53C13A0C0F for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:06:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hk6Id59vIOxo for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 781853A0A39 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4J33vZ5TRPz1pKHb; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:06:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1638234394; bh=C8fnWrVHy6KLn6lhUXI2AcJvHezbhfUFhxCTSDqQYHw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=eoQMtj4pR0DVAxy2mVLK4z8pcZoRdytKdp7fymJ6ECJTCtkG+ykuMdcZfNxXaWrav r5UhHoDYWerWrHe3wLCkAOW9pndatVHFGCJh7iueW7atSUtaGr6CoUAXKOD5GcVPuL Bjfvl+cCfB46X9L8WNwx//GMMOiYmmd1fBnSB0Xk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.22.111] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4J33vZ0X9Qz1ntMd; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:06:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:06:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:06:42 -0000 Fair question. Getting clarify on what principles we can agree on would help me. Having some degree of protection (not permanence) for those principles would help. I well understand that neither perfection nor everything I want are reasonable goals. On the other hand, if there really are no principles we can agree on, then I am very concerned that this process is on a road to hell paved with good intention. Yours, Joel On 11/29/2021 7:35 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > Joel > >> On 30/11/2021, at 1:19 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> The proposal I see is: >> I wonder if all sides could agree to a compromise on the question of principles whereby the document sets the bar by which any principles can be added/changed/removed/reinterpreted but not the principles themselves? >> >> For me, that is not effective. It defines a process for some set of principles which may some day exist. But does not make that process apply to anything. Hence, I do not see what putting that in this document would accomplish. > > A thought experiment - imagine there are two principles X and Y that you want included in this document but we can only reach consensus that X is included now not Y and we all agree that the document can move forward. That then leaves the situation that principle X has the extra level of protection that you would like to see, but not Y making it easier to create policy that contradicts it. It’s also questionable whether any process would exists by which Y could achieve that same level of protection. > > Would that be a better outcome than my proposal? > > Jay > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/29/2021 7:07 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >>> On 11/29/2021 6:04 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> I must have misread an email. I did not see a proposal on this issue from Jay. can you point me at it? >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfced-future/CPKDxkV1DxvV6hlXsLrVf5sHF0Q/ /a >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future > From nobody Mon Nov 29 17:11:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0132E3A0C8D; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:11:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y_Z4qSGJsmgt; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9C9D3A0C46; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU1Bfil003067 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:11:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638234702; bh=tnmRrtEB+8UtqGxuHrjcipZVpHsV/YtUdhi31GGL494=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NJRSyFJbK0FHzoS7QrzEbIqrRLfi63oW1rvo4gqR8ltaLz8DkaSXrEiIo1N1xfxP4 cpLY1iMjWI2iCj8CAn7iUqK9rqcPOW81rBAUPWrPEhPyPuOHptHoi1uRtdh34ufo75 kWmjYKprI3FNGRYELdCBn01fOz5bGBEp1nOZiO4M= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:11:36 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:11:55 -0000 On 11/29/2021 7:06 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > On the other hand, if there really are no principles we can agree on, > then I am very concerned that this process is on a road to hell paved > with good intention. Hard agree. I don't think we're anywhere near that situation. What I *do* think is that it's going to take a fair bit of discussion to tease out the set of base principles we do all agree on, and even longer to hammer out all the nuance that people are going to want to attach to each of them. And I don't think it's reasonable to delay creation of a non-temporary governance structure for as long as that's going to take. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 17:37:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34C63A0C38 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.752 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.752 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DuA5vj54PVca for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from JPN01-TYC-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-tycjpn01on20719.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f403:7010::719]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EFEC3A0AA1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:36:57 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=iHQXFb26KlFBcH+28TAcQMBB6sx0UceehiZgyX4nUr7XXAJ5DnC27RGAXcobp0j1LAD6ExETuvQgrKrVnFmxf8FUisO89ddtq0G9ARdVXtdYTlyYspZ7VffY2CMVkKqVAsunNkz3ZZxr78s/l9m6z2+XU4QRf2fuJ+w+D69jzZYPSR3+LKYCoL74Yaa9RL+uzqdMYyxBuTI3V9lj1vN1pKbDMLewwlKzjoO3zOdqyIaXY+Gne5l9avtm0sIw+BAgGijpfP594xfXjvfwgggfE3+1wt3z0elfmFYXIklVvHt2uRb8g3ExfBSdcWHRxyEiKd1nEex8hDSnqvwI46whgg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=rlr9ulYr+cC5aT7CuYs588hmEHF7W7wfLXxb+v6VhGs=; b=Um9gLtn+UnUMmd54DkAve5Czjh4dvm+09DbaZWPhnkxcMPihA3kIsO4g4nbrur8Xa1YodJnEhAFANewIZt3SebTdwfpvG9Q2U+F4aAqZJQio7N29dTyCzcfIYVSgVsyzw+9hRWsW0CmtewGm/eTvXqoSbmpc6yWhUBKh6DVuQr/GEaAznhLvQIDSrm6YGKBC6zGnsrsevm/JEqnFMV3sbOA8K3nWPPmM6IxGnKiNrrJtwI04JnuRlDRa4jBDhxMq4/YFCGsKxTvD273hYXiCks1pVdf2PsqXxxq5fsHjWYX8+BpBlwzVFC5+2i+HcVJmXoN9DwmIKKuZ+tVS8W1Law== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=rlr9ulYr+cC5aT7CuYs588hmEHF7W7wfLXxb+v6VhGs=; b=ghQE5P0HIIMbxZiFJPPbiVsFgKzm5ne4Uii8DiZcFB5YXn7v6ixFgLEJXiyGQz17OnXjJSkHP30Vcvspb05U9cOdHX2aw9vnTgM2F6h27b1tBfUdpUjWvnYBBwvj01GIn/OBrl35Z9W1eeGCESPl7t92Z+1KO8ymbEfL1EcTC2A= Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYAPR01MB3150.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8e::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:36:51 +0000 Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::348d:f2c7:d58f:35f3%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:36:51 +0000 Message-ID: <83fd9152-7cb5-6ea2-b0c9-4e65ba065c29@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:36:49 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach , Stephen Farrell , "Joel M. 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:37:01 -0000 On 2021-11-30 09:25, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 6:10 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> On 29/11/2021 23:59, Adam Roach wrote: >>> For example: work on the the RFC format change began in late 2012, >>> and appears to be mostly (although not completely) concluded today, >>> nearly 9 years later. I am solidly of the opinion that this is not >>> the right balance of agility versus stability. As with all standards-related things (and many other things, too), they always take longer than predicted or desired. The speed for upcoming changes will meet the same fate, whether we like it or not. >> That's a fair point. Way more nimble that that seems totally >> sensible. That said, I'm not sure any of the principles I'd >> argue to include that caused that delay. > > > It is, however, trivially easy to imagine, had we attempted to define > such principles some while back, that they would contain language that > says roughly "RFCs are copied by the interested people and printed or > displayed at their site on their equipment. This means that the format > of the online files must meet the constraints of a wide variety of > printing and display equipment. Up to that point, with some tweaks, that might have been a reasonable principle, and may be a reasonable principle even now. And something akin to this principle actually was considered very carefully when working on the RFC format change. The ultimate conclusion was that technology had advanced enough that wherever needed, a system understanding HTML/CSS and the necessary fonts covering Unicode should be widely available, or else a way to print PDF/A. > To this end, the character codes used in > RFCs are ASCII; each page must be limited to 58 lines followed by a > form-feed on a line by itself; and each line must be limited to 72 > characters followed by a carriage return and line feed. No overstriking > or underlining is allowed." That's details, and I think nobody (possibly with the exception of those who say "I don't know what archival means") has seriously proposed to include such details. > That was an incredibly sensible thing to say when RFC 825 was published, > and people probably would have agreed to it as a bedrock principle. The principle, yes. The details, at the time yes, but as details, not as principle. And having had such a principle would not, in my view, have seriously affected the effective timeline for the RFC format change. Because indeed the general perception in the discussion was that such a principle existed and was important. What took time was a) to convince some people that technology indeed had moved ahead (when you never print out anything else than ASCII, you don't realize how much you can print out on your system), b) to convince people that there would be an advantage in having non-ASCII characters included in a controlled way, for example for names and for examples (and actually not much else), c) to work out the details. Regards, Martin. > /a > From nobody Mon Nov 29 17:38:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8082F3A0C38 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=rvrY3HmE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nkA8mYXq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dLafFQtJmu7N for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E96803A0AA1 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485403202067; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:38:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h= message-id:date:mime-version:to:cc:references:from:subject :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=e 5+MwEBDC9cEJh6nPSFCa+TN8Gxi/WDOBaYycXT6qXM=; b=rvrY3HmEBdixnOfXE jH/shAwfmolXXV1JXsBumfG4zXzCq2F1IgnPbLzeFEU5UZxUISD0OfYZXfhG/gMj B9CtAox066PBuUQnIoJx3CyS67uafVAw0TX4AbYH7MiqdUqLCtnMQrfoRG7sVR+T 4NXyV7meetnsLeMJVzYo2nFrFAcSvSoKjCkJUCSyT4dpChhAmliqQnEXXDNGCvEK hds0hjCUHmT5YzLZObZJMDOwkCI1pZ6nsuHYo/jbpgdHNbEdGNwyk69OZkt1Gxwh 6u+ThmpzxaW1bcLvQxf3NGBFQRwlIru5HeqjLP538OleGbRQ52KsmnDWOAjcoR2z 5HFhQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=e5+MwEBDC9cEJh6nPSFCa+TN8Gxi/WDOBaYycXT6q XM=; b=nkA8mYXqwJnNCd5I5UxqVM5VXngER8kAM0tcPeCLm7I2yUIUHbjQkICmk UZreShuijGEOo/94UXnF8Wvh/Sez95ZRWQMB85rkm5ILJkp0gxKIW4UDu3bqJqDX MjSizXKPQh79RfYWDqA70eKRh5x7QzomQInANuCSUCNgu/2jAc+jZpTrkhtdZ9bO fjomFogtEpNs+A+Qo6vBxydDuJZPVKN2Xi7PndyYjAkrWp5FYgm1g2y32HcS8BRk WflAZqus1U2nxAq60Od1i4/DglEnnEYfEDaGrhumqzDbcOtP7pMMQxkHsUgoPjWE ZVc5hYs/mfOFexipBRFEkinUNc9hQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddriedtgdefhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfvfhfhufgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgleekveevlefgheejuefhheeuhfekfedtfffggefhgeetvdeg iefgvdekledtgfenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:38:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:38:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 01:38:21 -0000 On 11/29/21 6:11 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 7:06 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> On the other hand, if there really are no principles we can agree on, >> then I am very concerned that this process is on a road to hell paved >> with good intention. > > > Hard agree. > > I don't think we're anywhere near that situation. What I *do* think is > that it's going to take a fair bit of discussion to tease out the set of > base principles we do all agree on, and even longer to hammer out all > the nuance that people are going to want to attach to each of them. And > I don't think it's reasonable to delay creation of a non-temporary > governance structure for as long as that's going to take. Hard agree. Further, I'm concerned about violating the principle of least user surprise when (or, at this stage, if?) we take the results of this program back to the broader community. "You know that program that was going to define an open governance process for making future changes to policies related to the RFC Series? Well, they also defined a base set of perpetual principles for the RFC Series." Even if *we* think we have carte blanche from the IAB (note: I'm not convinced we do), I don't know if that's how folks who aren't paying close attention to this program see it. At the very least, if we're going to go down this path, maybe we need to issue a wider call for community participation so folks are aware that they might want to get involved. Peter From nobody Mon Nov 29 18:01:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031CD3A0C4E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:01:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0_Jn-6izs9u for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr40123.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.4.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 064523A0C4A for ; 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Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:01:43 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:01:43 +0000 Message-ID: <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:01:40 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:01:53 -0000 --------------k3OP9g795DTZw44yLUj3BzAU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Kjdv2VtTGHDNEsJ3H31eWhki"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: --------------Kjdv2VtTGHDNEsJ3H31eWhki Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------hdymAKqHnLFAH8gqIPSyMBu5" --------------hdymAKqHnLFAH8gqIPSyMBu5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaXlhLA0KDQpPbiAzMC8xMS8yMDIxIDAxOjM4LCBQZXRlciBTYWludC1BbmRyZSB3cm90 ZToNCj4gDQo+IEZ1cnRoZXIsIEknbSBjb25jZXJuZWQgYWJvdXQgdmlvbGF0aW5nIHRoZSBw 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attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGlhgQFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+ro vw//ehKdeE5WZSfbZfhaIqnU5IcDQLysCVbY7D3lEU1drktE4QHKTPSdf4VMcUgYmRLbhu37sdsT 1s5em6bARangg8XOZUF3OhmeYyz7QtzcHc0VFuO5ByNg5QjZthtxefHIV5nb7mDfKnxybDnUD4mt D7XoVQW/CFRP0q3lZOmj4NfuiBeNAOjH2zxIlhTKrbbvgWAIcPE06VioY6BspwL9qU2LFcNYoVqO DGywleevdpet55Xtoq67iFIdAgQVREd98JugAIt6Dm9YiiLQw0q3B62blKQ2uOBgF90JBLRVbTQ9 r/oV4TEGORzFLv240tleRXIm6+Lva2O2kBEf0dgPwKd4dNHoOQRp2A40yhV+Xj5d5rQGBPGfK9ZK bcG1G+Oxk4ZqAkZkQ5XChozkwsmiyXrgcvAhgCqdhAPc0E41A3SDlZZU9g2+8CSD+RGODI1Can7E qq5t/EVQoOQcN4uSyr40/FuHJqj1D7yAde3kWOohd8CERCPBx9uzJeNUJWpOrricGbL5W0N2LzBm LODKt4agM2r1a/NKsxfgL85jUlukWAzRwhUL/BrbMJPL8bKH5uOBT0RXB/FwMcVVvn2/e63sa6KB njj+H0fvOZQO/mNRQuKf7CohaRtmiQFG7O58XvQvQq6nzYv+zl2reMn+Sd/jw4TE2tpyAykNBerb i8g= =IHkS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------k3OP9g795DTZw44yLUj3BzAU-- From nobody Mon Nov 29 18:28:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfvfhfhufgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghr ucfurghinhhtqdetnhgurhgvuceoshhtphgvthgvrhesshhtphgvthgvrhdrihhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgueegfedvkeetfeegkeekgefggfeuteetheegvdfgffevgeek gfelhedtgeetfeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehsthhpvghtvghrsehsthhpvghtvghrrdhimh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:28:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:28:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:28:36 -0000 On 11/29/21 7:01 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 30/11/2021 01:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> Further, I'm concerned about violating the principle of least user >> surprise when (or, at this stage, if?) we take the results of this >> program back to the broader community. "You know that program that was >> going to define an open governance process for making future changes >> to policies related to the RFC Series? Well, they also defined a base >> set of perpetual principles for the RFC Series." Even if *we* think we >> have carte blanche from the IAB (note: I'm not convinced we do), I >> don't know if that's how folks who aren't paying close attention to >> this program see it. At the very least, if we're going to go down this >> path, maybe we need to issue a wider call for community participation >> so folks are aware that they might want to get involved. > > Wider call: good. > > Expectation of useful feedback: not so much;-( But has to > be done anyway. > > "perpetual", "bedrock", "sacrosanct": not useful. Mind you, > I'm as guilty as many of us of sometimes flowery language > so this is just commentary, not condemnation:-) Fair enough. Adam suggested a less flowery expansion of "sacrosanct", so I'll suggest a less flowery expansion of "perpetual principles": fundamental propositions that we expect to guide the evolution of the RFC Series as a whole for the next 20-50 years. 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Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:42:15 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a85c:e144:6533:99ea%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:42:15 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:42:12 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:42:29 -0000 --------------Y3VpQo6em30pfwf2ngOygkEi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------dVEv10KW0q4mhqQCOicK1s8m"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> --------------dVEv10KW0q4mhqQCOicK1s8m Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------mlsZy7bHJTygDOn2jOIcB8vr" --------------mlsZy7bHJTygDOn2jOIcB8vr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmGlj4UFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rr lw//WcylcPqnQ+mIZeo9rIqhGEe13E5pA+0WxdXkz5GfeG4GFe+A8qyg/PMdBjUgDI4No291eCDd W43BAthBtQcGJtcr6Gjuz7CynDRYPrVD/h82Ea6dDxvIID6IV0PDtU9bYBv2uyfb6m57of2HJxyz h2XKZqE1RsGdDMmjr2SLv2GJunb+B4xeMN7X5sIR2suMLoIOmyENyjNkbX/D3FrZ1nlmyy2YFMCU e4KW0gaVgfW+gE39IvcHW4Jp8CbU9zvOhY86jsZe8zJkEwv/BqQx86JwHVaC4WdymhAQEbAFJa3C Q0Ql4h5RqlHzNwnN/mK6t2CfTF67fFzDoGPIAepwjIqOYoHtOq7F9VWnK9CbtjE6qKSTrZu33Cg0 5D4sEJQRr3ecVhmlOraK+3msZE+5peTkhVQXgE7Zkhk0lgSUaj2HO51cHP0hIkI8k/z0SdjeDN0C 95SuSp6ssxbFT6oru/PqdXpiwUWI8iV13sQiPdiFxM4qpSdoKNWROmsjAG5hPG0A4Y4bky/rgZmC D5RlF3y3blJBE5EF9B60tlGGU86ILo+lZhHdG620J1Rfpx/mm3dNDiWYTCB757Bj2ZJ/IwXoQh9R mjOKjE6Z7kTxA+EvPwVHd0iGYCWu6nUSAH72tqFqh8ZUyvxGXXSeZ6SYh7u8qTKXUhKDWELdhHCh w9I= =KC2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------Y3VpQo6em30pfwf2ngOygkEi-- From nobody 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m6sm13285703pgs.18.2021.11.29.19.00.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:00:37 -0800 (PST) To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1745afbe-744d-754f-18d3-34f291d3f28e@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 16:00:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 03:00:41 -0000 On 30-Nov-21 14:38, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 11/29/21 6:11 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 11/29/2021 7:06 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> On the other hand, if there really are no principles we can agree on, >>> then I am very concerned that this process is on a road to hell paved >>> with good intention. >> >> >> Hard agree. >> >> I don't think we're anywhere near that situation. What I *do* think is >> that it's going to take a fair bit of discussion to tease out the set of >> base principles we do all agree on, and even longer to hammer out all >> the nuance that people are going to want to attach to each of them. And >> I don't think it's reasonable to delay creation of a non-temporary >> governance structure for as long as that's going to take. > > Hard agree. > > Further, I'm concerned about violating the principle of least user > surprise when (or, at this stage, if?) we take the results of this > program back to the broader community. "You know that program that was > going to define an open governance process for making future changes to > policies related to the RFC Series? Well, they also defined a base set > of perpetual principles for the RFC Series." Even if *we* think we have > carte blanche from the IAB (note: I'm not convinced we do), I don't know > if that's how folks who aren't paying close attention to this program > see it. At the very least, if we're going to go down this path, maybe we > need to issue a wider call for community participation so folks are > aware that they might want to get involved. +N, where N is a large integer. I think with "principles" in the text, the community last call will definitely demonstrate what Dorothy Parker meant by "What fresh hell is this?". We might get away with "Historical Properties", but not with "Principles". Brian From nobody Mon Nov 29 21:51:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CC43A101C for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:51:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bGqPsh9GPM7N for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:51:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73F153A101B for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 21:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU5pQ5n049962 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:51:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638251491; bh=updqFe9/dyieknURZDEh9vUEbkF3TPMWWacddAjnmng=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=U20yqTcknF4Nqe0uCbBqxcbRulzRh9pTdU8Q4zbASKOB8lVz+GcnYC/kXiDj5LfCi 0/BQ5NCTYyq190O00ziRIh551FshOPbSyeMZpT9oKuSrivsJG15sYszPKscK8WlJvJ mgi14m3u86ThneChH8ZoXKjVW0lFzvBv/6Nrpt/Y= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Stephen Farrell , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> <83fd9152-7cb5-6ea2-b0c9-4e65ba065c29@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 23:51:21 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83fd9152-7cb5-6ea2-b0c9-4e65ba065c29@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 05:51:42 -0000 On 11/29/2021 7:36 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > And something akin to this principle actually was considered very > carefully when working on the RFC format change. ...but then later wrote... > And having had such a principle would not, in my view, have seriously > affected the effective timeline for the RFC format change. It -- or as you astutely point out, something akin to it -- manifestly did impact the RFC format change timeline. Substantial cycles in that effort were burned on arguing over presentation formats, with potential outputs including HTML, PDF, Paginated Text, Unpaginated Text, and various ebook formats. "Printability" was repeatedly surfaced as an argument to boost support for certain formats (e.g., paginated text), as was "meeting the constraints of a wide variety of... display equipment" (e.g., ebook formats). It should be lost on no one that both of the aforementioned example formats were ultimately rejected by that effort. /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 22:18:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A233A1053 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:18:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qlV2kilzjFpe for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48C363A1052 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.230] (77-58-147-26.dclient.hispeed.ch [77.58.147.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AU6HwPB4014988 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 07:17:58 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1638253078; bh=C7Ryry2QnlOWA+3RoXGi7igWvmM35PamCbrDg/8DWSw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=VrYBL9rD5JSB3dKAwYf7+QkdrbqHUZ658CEm5EVrJw3zfcTqSrGGeLBxc7B3Q4plH 0I4oMeNVb11N0/nwGmmRB7DqMxGL25rOruB/3NVaIyApDdyqpNl+S7qdiZYfo+eA44 iC3Y7iBgR4k2j9MgXFdF30vsIOTuKvVpXscHZsPk= Message-ID: <2d2030a3-2e9b-392c-0108-b33dd23609a3@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 07:17:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------xnIxS43zNRpSRFo0ZrMc9tMO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:18:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------xnIxS43zNRpSRFo0ZrMc9tMO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4OmQDuzvZmiJwpAXC3M0Bexr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Adam Roach Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <2d2030a3-2e9b-392c-0108-b33dd23609a3@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: --------------4OmQDuzvZmiJwpAXC3M0Bexr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpPbiAzMC4xMS4yMSAwMjoxMSwgQWRhbSBSb2FjaCB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj4gSSBkb24ndCB0 aGluayB3ZSdyZSBhbnl3aGVyZSBuZWFyIHRoYXQgc2l0dWF0aW9uLiBXaGF0IEkgKmRvKiB0 aGluayBpcyANCj4gdGhhdCBpdCdzIGdvaW5nIHRvIHRha2UgYSBmYWlyIGJpdCBvZiBkaXNj dXNzaW9uIHRvIHRlYXNlIG91dCB0aGUgc2V0IA0KPiBvZiBiYXNlIHByaW5jaXBsZXMgd2Ug ZG8gYWxsIGFncmVlIG9uLCBhbmQgZXZlbiBsb25nZXIgdG8gaGFtbWVyIG91dCANCj4gYWxs IHRoZSBudWFuY2UgdGhhdCBwZW9wbGUgYXJlIGdvaW5nIHRvIHdhbnQgdG8gYXR0YWNoIHRv IGVhY2ggb2YgDQo+IHRoZW0uIEFuZCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGl0J3MgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0 byBkZWxheSBjcmVhdGlvbiBvZiBhIA0KPiBub24tdGVtcG9yYXJ5IGdvdmVybmFuY2Ugc3Ry dWN0dXJlIGZvciBhcyBsb25nIGFzIHRoYXQncyBnb2luZyB0byB0YWtlLg0KDQpBcyBJJ3Zl IG1lbnRpb25lZCBiZWZvcmUsIHdlIGNhbiBwb2xsIHRvIHNlZSB3aGVyZSB3ZSBhcmUgZXZl biBjbG9zZSBvbiANCnNvbWUgcHJpbmNpcGxlcy7CoMKgIFRoYXQgd291bGQgYXQgbGVhc3Qg cGVybWl0IHVzIHRvIGFncmVlIG9uIHRoYXQgd2hpY2ggDQp3ZSBjYW4gYWdyZWUuwqAgV2Ug Y2FuIGRpc2N1c3MgdGhpcyBvcHRpb24gb24gdGhlIGNhbGwuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg== --------------4OmQDuzvZmiJwpAXC3M0Bexr-- --------------xnIxS43zNRpSRFo0ZrMc9tMO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> <83fd9152-7cb5-6ea2-b0c9-4e65ba065c29@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: TYBP286CA0012.JPNP286.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:404:ce::24) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [100.70.32.193] (133.2.0.81) by TYBP286CA0012.JPNP286.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:404:ce::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.20 via Frontend Transport; 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[was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:18:50 -0000 On 2021-11-30 14:51, Adam Roach wrote: > On 11/29/2021 7:36 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: >> And something akin to this principle actually was considered very >> carefully when working on the RFC format change. > > ...but then later wrote... > >> And having had such a principle would not, in my view, have seriously >> affected the effective timeline for the RFC format change. Well, sorry, let me be more precise. What I meant was that whether the principle had been *written down* or not did not affect the timeline. What affected the timeline was that the principle was accepted widely, but that there were differences in opinion about how well the proposed solutions would work out for that principle. > It -- or as you astutely point out, something akin to it -- manifestly > did impact the RFC format change timeline. Substantial cycles in that > effort were burned on arguing over presentation formats, with potential > outputs including HTML, PDF, Paginated Text, Unpaginated Text, and > various ebook formats. "Printability" was repeatedly surfaced as an > argument to boost support for certain formats (e.g., paginated text), as > was "meeting the constraints of a wide variety of... display equipment" > (e.g., ebook formats). > > It should be lost on no one that both of the aforementioned example > formats were ultimately rejected by that effort. As far as I count, you mention five formats (1) HTML, 2) PDF, 3) Paginated text, 4) Unpaginated text, 5) ebook formats). Which two do you mean were rejected? And the ultimate outcome was okay because both HTML and in particular PDF are indeed quite printable, and displayable on a wide range of devices. Regards, Martin. > /a From nobody Mon Nov 29 22:22:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716E03A1059 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1j5LKoCHXxQt for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B66C43A1056 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1AU6Ln00055130 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:21:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638253312; bh=xJKsVeLCVkjy3BG33NF0EmM1SkPy4h3rXab0U0BoRMo=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CGWv5QTf4ULDcymnst7Vzo1X7UjAa5KgJv+VB/LpLNvMQ1pbBS49nEkD35OjFEsBB K/09pxyD9dLaXDnGd+Qh6eKE4LgaU++jE+5pbYO0/n5PFP79Y0RowO5RJn5hPlXO/P P5730gIlEJffwGenCmvUXbDi8TDaVYbDe8+dQ/V4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48] To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , Stephen Farrell , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <4b5ebdfc-7a3f-ce33-fe11-185ef0bdc044@nostrum.com> <83fd9152-7cb5-6ea2-b0c9-4e65ba065c29@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <5a3937d4-0421-f1f9-9c8b-2dcd1fae715d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 00:21:44 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a3937d4-0421-f1f9-9c8b-2dcd1fae715d@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:22:05 -0000 On 11/30/2021 12:18 AM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > As far as I count, you mention five formats (1) HTML, 2) PDF, > 3) Paginated text, 4) Unpaginated text, 5) ebook formats). > Which two do you mean were rejected? "(e.g., paginated text)" "(e.g., ebook formats)" /a From nobody Tue Nov 30 02:31:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020893A1204 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:30:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rJHQ6s6SL4z3 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 576F63A1209 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee74b88003119f1191c1cca4b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e74b:8800:3119:f119:1c1c:ca4b]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1ms0PJ-0000ia-EY; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:30:41 +0100 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Message-Id: <573470D8-D5B5-4137-AE36-C731EF8A253E@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_69056F62-2C18-4CA0-BEA6-08ACAC475DC6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:30:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" To: Eliot Lear References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1638268246;e6ac6ef3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1ms0PJ-0000ia-EY Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:31:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_69056F62-2C18-4CA0-BEA6-08ACAC475DC6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I also made a proposal a while ago and created a PR on Github. My = thinking was to rather describe what the RFC series is today: https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/137/files The PR proposes to add this text to the intro: "The RFC Series is currently the publication venue for four streams - the IETF stream, the IAB stream, the IRTF stream, and the Independent Submission Editor (ISE) stream. This document establishes a fifth stream, the Editorial stream. Documents of these streams are intentionally published in the same publication series in order to foster exchange among these communities and support diversity in expression. The streams are responsible for the content of the published document and, respectively, also to organise a review process that ensures document quality as well as community consensus if desired. The RFC Production Center (RPC) is responsible for the publication and accessibility of RFCs, including technical challenges for the long-term archival of digital publications.=E2=80=9D I believe this text is very much inline which what is written in RFC8729 = (which is already referenced in the previous sentence in the existing = intro text). I=E2=80=99d be fine with adding another note in section 3.1.2 as = proposed by Joel or Jay that the RSAB should take special attention for = changes that document or change principles and is responsible to ensure = broad community review. But at least I don=E2=80=99t see a good reason = to add any series-wide additional principle to this document now (beyond = what=E2=80=99s already document in RFC8729). Mirja > On 29. Nov 2021, at 18:21, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Joel's text here = . >=20 > Brian's text here = . >=20 > If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, let me = know. I'm not going to be picky. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rfced-future mailing list > Rfced-future@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future --Apple-Mail=_69056F62-2C18-4CA0-BEA6-08ACAC475DC6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = also made a proposal a while ago and created a PR on Github. My thinking = was to rather describe what the RFC series is today:

https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/137/f= iles

The = PR proposes to add this text to the intro:

"The RFC Series is = currently the publication venue for four
streams - = the IETF stream, the IAB stream, the IRTF stream, and
the Independent Submission Editor (ISE) stream. This = document
establishes a fifth stream, the Editorial = stream. Documents
of these streams are = intentionally published in the same
publication = series in order to foster exchange among these
communities and support diversity in expression. The = streams
are responsible for the content of the = published document and,
respectively, also to = organise a review process that ensures
document = quality as well as community consensus if desired.
The RFC Production Center (RPC) is responsible for = the
publication and accessibility of RFCs, = including technical
challenges for the long-term = archival of digital publications.=E2=80=9D

I believe this text is very much inline = which what is written in RFC8729 (which is already referenced in the = previous sentence in the existing intro text).

I=E2=80=99d be fine with adding another = note in section 3.1.2 as proposed by Joel or Jay that the RSAB should = take special attention for changes that document or change principles = and is responsible to ensure broad community review. But at least I = don=E2=80=99t see a good reason to add any series-wide additional = principle to this document now (beyond what=E2=80=99s already document = in RFC8729).

Mirja



On 29. Nov 2021, at 18:21, = Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:

=20 =20


Joel's text here.

Brian's text = here.

If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, = let me know.  I'm not going to be picky.

Eliot


<OpenPGP_0x87= B66B46D9D27A33.asc>--
Rfced-future mailing = list
Rfced-future@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

= --Apple-Mail=_69056F62-2C18-4CA0-BEA6-08ACAC475DC6-- From nobody Tue Nov 30 04:13:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B160E3A1267 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 04:13:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZRrd1oU-uGAI for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 04:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61E13A1263 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 04:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::4] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:4]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1AUCD77x4186871 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:13:09 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1638274389; bh=MZ9PY++ahqEIX2HPgGJqGr3PII4D1JFIK9KWT5mw4iw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=swArBI/AP5Modhuv9tjONjXJEdkWaO4oCMH8/qJoGjtETErwHBIecf2Cip6CYi2XF 5EjM7sB0mb8tjGAt1i8Oz1NlFlBAAAgxyznoTs7sxcu/5ZYqqifwaj0/3SEnTRccxN 8/mtO18qt9mpiZQJSlTPy1PnoTj6EwkED/WTYwJU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:13:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------reJ0E1UofSqVJYxlvJN0Xkmu" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 12:13:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------reJ0E1UofSqVJYxlvJN0Xkmu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------WWDO2HYlqcVQjRLrnePP19f3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Where, if not there? [was What, if not these] References: <7cec5108-bd80-cf68-106a-579ebff0b555@joelhalpern.com> <5F2A684C-716D-4465-ACC1-6855E4FE4835@ietf.org> <67745f0b-d5b5-4eeb-5218-6d33eca9b6cc@nostrum.com> <288E8939-43B9-413F-9237-D030C5F4EA12@ietf.org> <6efd25e0-7699-9e72-3a05-36f5d4e6604a@nostrum.com> <8833698e-7473-deca-2798-215418047236@nostrum.com> <8a2134d5-ad4e-43a2-585b-49309639ffef@joelhalpern.com> <1d090383-29a3-e61d-7357-eba9e423cf91@joelhalpern.com> <261c38f0-69e2-51d3-2aae-2e9ef27dec8e@joelhalpern.com> <84ED132E-39E5-4B11-9680-39179887016C@ietf.org> <975b4f04-3306-d620-da81-1552d9c1e3e4@cs.tcd.ie> <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <32fa37ef-9e26-bdd4-a291-16c21c31268a@stpeter.im> --------------WWDO2HYlqcVQjRLrnePP19f3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Cp2QwwMJvkdVE81m0ec24Km0" --------------Cp2QwwMJvkdVE81m0ec24Km0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t8sm21197544pfe.28.2021.11.30.13.27.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 13:27:31 -0800 (PST) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Eliot Lear Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" References: <310029bf-2dba-a62f-efb8-87079d63faaf@lear.ch> <573470D8-D5B5-4137-AE36-C731EF8A253E@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <95a610a8-9764-ef0c-3479-2ccf73867f45@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 10:27:26 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <573470D8-D5B5-4137-AE36-C731EF8A253E@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Proposals on GH X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 21:27:40 -0000 On 30-Nov-21 23:30, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I also made a proposal a while ago and created a PR on Github. My think= ing was to rather describe what the RFC series is today: >=20 > https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/pull/137/files >=20 > The PR proposes to add this text to the intro: >=20 > "The RFC Series is currently the publication venue for four > streams - the IETF stream, the IAB stream, the IRTF stream, and > the Independent Submission Editor (ISE) stream. This document > establishes a fifth stream, the Editorial stream. Documents > of these streams are intentionally published in the same > publication series in order to foster exchange among these > communities and support diversity in expression. The streams > are responsible for the content of the published document and, > respectively, also to organise a review process that ensures > document quality as well as community consensus if desired. > The RFC Production Center (RPC) is responsible for the > publication and accessibility of RFCs, including technical > challenges for the long-term archival of digital publications.=E2=80=9D= >=20 > I believe this text is very much inline which what is written in RFC872= 9 (which is already referenced in the previous sentence in the existing i= ntro text). >=20 > I=E2=80=99d be fine with adding another note in section 3.1.2 as propos= ed by Joel or Jay that the RSAB should take special attention for changes=20 that document or change principles and is responsible to ensure broad com= munity review. But at least I don=E2=80=99t see a good reason to add any = series-wide additional principle to this document now (beyond what=E2=80=99= s already document in RFC8729). I would be OK with all this. To be clear, my text in GitHub is a possible=20 compromise but my underlying view is still that principles are out of sco= pe for our draft. Brian >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 29. Nov 2021, at 18:21, Eliot Lear > wrote: >> >> >> Joel's text here . >> >> Brian's text here . >> >> If anyone else wants text posted in advance of the meeting, let me kno= w.=C2=A0 I'm not going to be picky. >> >> Eliot >> >> >> -- >> Rfced-future mailing list >> Rfced-future@iab.org >> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future >=20 >=20