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I think the selection of the people is good, I at least trust all of them. (I'd put yourself last rather than first, but that's a minor detail.) I'd keep any mention of the RSOC out of the text. I didn't even know that Peter is RSOC chair. We are working on replacing the RSOC, so we shouldn't need it anymore. The RSAB isn't constituted yet, but it's easy to get feedback from the IRTF chair and from the Independent Submission Editor (or whatever his title was, sorry) in addition to the IAB and IESG, which (with the exception of the RSCE, which we are hiring) covers all of the RSAG. Regards, Martin. On 2022-02-01 10:50, Jay Daley wrote: > In line with Peter’s proposed text [1], here is my proposal for the RSCE selection committee and recruitment process, which I would like community feedback on. I realise that things have not been fully settled but this recruitment is going to take some time and the sooner we can start the better. If this is too soon then please let me know. > > # Rationale > > 1. The RSCE role is very different from the previous RSE role and for the recruitment to be a success it is critical that the committee recruits to the new RSCE role as defined. It would be problematic if anyone on the committee was not clear about the new role and was inadvertently targeting the old role. The committee members therefore need detailed knowledge of the new role, in all its subtleties. > > 2. The committee needs detailed knowledge of the working environment in which the new RSCE will operate in order to assess fit and answer questions. This environment includes the RPC, IETF community, IETF community leadership and non-IETF RFC community (as such as it exists and we have knowledge of it). > > 3. The committee needs good knowledge of the contracting options available to ensure that these are all properly considered. > > > # Composition > > I have approached all of the following and they have agreed to provide their time and expertise to this process. They all have detailed knowledge of the new role. > > - Jay Daley, IETF Executive Director (me), recruitment and contracting expertise > - Sandy Ginoza, RPC Director, detailed knowledge of the working environment > - John Levine, Temporary RFC Series PM, detailed knowledge of the working environment > - Peter Saint-Andre, RSOC chair and editor of new model, detailed knowledge of new model and the working environment > - Mike St Johns, community member, detailed knowledge of new model, contracting expertise > > > # Process > > a. Get community feedback on all of this and adjust as needed > b. In lieu of the RSAB get feedback from the RSOC, IAB and IESG once community feedback incorporated > c. Committee meets to identify community members for the recruiters to meet with as part of their research and to provide advice to recruiters on where to look > d. Recruiter meets community members and then does its stuff > e. Recruitment process > f. Committee presents LLC board with one or more recommended candidates and contracting options for final decision. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/151 > > -- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan From nobody Tue Feb 1 06:47:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289A83A10E1 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 06:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=Vuzx7HT0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HUxRDp/G Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wpTIB5qAaGwg for ; 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Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:47:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <119208ad-0e6c-3613-bda6-862c25f344a5@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 07:47:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 References: <164372674609.19964.5179148622014680461@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <164372674609.19964.5179148622014680461@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <164372674609.19964.5179148622014680461@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 14:47:43 -0000 FYI. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 06:45:46 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Revision: 11 Title: RFC Editor Model (Version 3) Document date: 2022-02-01 Group: iab Pages: 32 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11 Abstract: This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. The model defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series. First, policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals. Second, policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC). This document obsoletes RFC 8728. This document updates RFC 7841, RFC 8729, and RFC 8730. 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Content-Language: en-US To: Internet Architecture Board Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------nA2FzDdDoVK1F7VLtjIKW07Z" Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 08:51:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------nA2FzDdDoVK1F7VLtjIKW07Z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------HyibCTAE8x77QRokPPzecBZZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Internet Architecture Board Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" Message-ID: <410918e0-1898-309f-3289-a02d30a112b3@lear.ch> Subject: Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 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[108.51.200.187]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id az34sm6914963qkb.41.2022.02.02.10.01.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Feb 2022 10:01:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <26953c41-db43-0c3f-4a5d-d95a99fe4844@nthpermutation.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:01:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: rfced-future@iab.org References: <410918e0-1898-309f-3289-a02d30a112b3@lear.ch> From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: <410918e0-1898-309f-3289-a02d30a112b3@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 18:01:39 -0000 On 2/2/2022 3:51 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear Board Members, > > The chairs of the RFC Editor Future Development Program believe that > draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11[1] is ready for you to progress.  Given > the nature of this work, we suggest that during the community comment > period you seek broad review.  We await any comments or questions you > or the community might have for us. > > As a reminder, the final version of this draft should be published > concurrently with draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, > draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01, and draft-rsalz-2028bis-03.txt.  > These updates are scoped to reflect the change of structure. > > Brian & Eliot > > [1] > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11 > > > Deleting the IAB for a minute.  Shouldn't this note also be directed to the IESG and the LLC Board?  I believe we were in agreement that it will require approval of all three groups to go forward with the approval of this document. 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kWrPwARapWY72Rc+a8peGiWdgLOWOPM35uzSKvgw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 20:34:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org References: <410918e0-1898-309f-3289-a02d30a112b3@lear.ch> <26953c41-db43-0c3f-4a5d-d95a99fe4844@nthpermutation.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <26953c41-db43-0c3f-4a5d-d95a99fe4844@nthpermutation.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------DZQEDjaPmLugLy2KRdAv0Ie1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 19:34:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmH63LAFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejN5 AwgAgA2XZ/NcKghBZkN1Oo+EQ/dRayE6q0J2HNjkkHlUJpvycR7/9nmkNnDEeI7YG925RTWGzO/C TaJRjY3+Eg7wLVYPgKXS8eovf5muvIF9B9G39PdR07fNSpEYIXrJQqGdB5Pr8jwCPz7LLRuezeLK /XAjnQ9fVo7pEV1KgVWe4mY1Wi/G+nuPuX6vQkf1d+8B5aGtWBDSd9Bavb5zcB+SDi4iJXxU97xx p+gUcUrRNOtu6M+CPLsXrh94DnZ7c/kiIOXv4aGiWi0FHTzJ02Nm43kwvfEW+bXxosv3liSSWu5t euqwqklcq5WDgE3Wf8+AVz9Sjpk2SOlnV5OLo1Bg3A== =SQDC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------DZQEDjaPmLugLy2KRdAv0Ie1-- From nobody Wed Feb 2 11:55:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A053A1DDF for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:55:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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Feb 2022 14:55:05 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <26953c41-db43-0c3f-4a5d-d95a99fe4844@nthpermutation.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:55:03 -0500 Cc: rfced-future@iab.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <410918e0-1898-309f-3289-a02d30a112b3@lear.ch> <26953c41-db43-0c3f-4a5d-d95a99fe4844@nthpermutation.com> To: Mike StJohns X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 19:55:11 -0000 > On Feb 2, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 2/2/2022 3:51 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Dear Board Members, >>=20 >> The chairs of the RFC Editor Future Development Program believe that = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11[1] is ready for you to progress. Given = the nature of this work, we suggest that during the community comment = period you seek broad review. We await any comments or questions you or = the community might have for us. >>=20 >> As a reminder, the final version of this draft should be published = concurrently with draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, = draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01, and draft-rsalz-2028bis-03.txt. = These updates are scoped to reflect the change of structure. >>=20 >> Brian & Eliot >>=20 >> [1] = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > Deleting the IAB for a minute. Shouldn't this note also be directed = to the IESG and the LLC Board? I believe we were in agreement that it = will require approval of all three groups to go forward with the = approval of this document. When this group got started, I thought we said that the IAB would be = responsible for the coordination with the IESG and LLC prior to document = approval. I did not go back to the archives to check my memory, but = that is my recollection. 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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p8sm27714526pfo.41.2022.02.02.12.06.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Feb 2022 12:06:39 -0800 (PST) References: <164383199382.28886.1197299496553591475@ietfa.amsl.com> To: rfced-future@iab.org From: Brian E Carpenter X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <164383199382.28886.1197299496553591475@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 09:06:38 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <164383199382.28886.1197299496553591475@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.txt X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 20:06:46 -0000 This is an update that has been pending until the main document was ready. Brian -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.txt Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 11:59:53 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model Author : Brian E. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2022-02-02 Abstract: This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced- model). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Wed Feb 2 12:16:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73843A1E77 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uMABZ6gh5UbB for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30E873A1E7C for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C47D425C152 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQiVmwgYAx2e for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-24-6-24-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.24.199]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9D31425A346 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:47 -0800 (PST) From: Cindy Morgan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:16:47 -0800 References: To: rfced-future@iab.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.40.0.2.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 20:16:53 -0000 At their meeting earlier today, the IAB agreed to send a Call for = Comments (IAB version of IETF Last Call) on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model. = This will have a wider-than-normal distribution that includes = IETF-Announce, IRTF-Announce and RFC-interest. The IAB also noted that this Call for Comments should go out at the same = time as the IETF Last Calls on draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, = draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026, and draft-rsalz-2028bis. Lars (as AD = sponsor for those docs) and I (as the Secretariat person who will be = pushing the appropriate buttons in the Datatracker for all 4 of these = docs) are coordinating. Thanks, Cindy > From: Eliot Lear > Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 > Date: February 2, 2022 at 11:34:08 AM PST > To: Michael StJohns , rfced-future@iab.org >=20 >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > I presented the process that I expect to have happen back in the Fall = (you may recall a detailed timeline slide - it's in the materials). = This is an IAB stream document. That means that RFC 4845 governs, and = as I mentioned in the Fall, it's up to the board, not the program, to = decide in the end how to weigh community input. It has been my = consistent advice that the board broadly consult, including the IETF, = IRTF, and others, because, in my view, this program believes that's the = right thing to do (I don't disagree). The IESG will have to approve = changes to the IAB charter, 2028, and a slight tweak to 2026. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 02.02.22 19:01, Michael StJohns wrote: >> On 2/2/2022 3:51 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Dear Board Members, >>>=20 >>> The chairs of the RFC Editor Future Development Program believe that = draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11[1] is ready for you to progress. Given = the nature of this work, we suggest that during the community comment = period you seek broad review. We await any comments or questions you or = the community might have for us. >>>=20 >>> As a reminder, the final version of this draft should be published = concurrently with draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, = draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01, and draft-rsalz-2028bis-03.txt. = These updates are scoped to reflect the change of structure. >>>=20 >>> Brian & Eliot >>>=20 >>> [1] = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> Deleting the IAB for a minute. Shouldn't this note also be directed = to the IESG and the LLC Board? I believe we were in agreement that it = will require approval of all three groups to go forward with the = approval of this document. >>=20 >> Mike From nobody Wed Feb 2 12:44:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rfced-future@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712283A1F94 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:44:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ray1AH6RFcKh for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4707A3A1F90 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::7] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:7]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 212KhoVY431891 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 2 Feb 2022 21:43:50 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1643834631; bh=0uT0xmIvqidMXnUTztgBaaqMBokigKHSKdz7f+T83LE=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=jAulTuoJifJKYZddey0os0SPve3XsS4SwIJ/4ACDeZ9oogJmmhtxXLEHZmrVQSQdM /0OU1IOMztkyCPVCcTmSai0tmaifRZiOEE3TSbBjXsXfhaClVROcLdtp7XNuD3IQ1o D/XaGkiYI/6Nq9ItS/UVc0M30TrN93CVK+exA5bM= Message-ID: <63f65302-e7d0-bd94-d83b-8131db7dc773@lear.ch> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 21:43:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Cindy Morgan , rfced-future@iab.org References: From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------tnLMAQbYP2V43ttUO0vVSeVX" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 X-BeenThere: rfced-future@iab.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: RFC Editor Future Development Program List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 20:44:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------tnLMAQbYP2V43ttUO0vVSeVX Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ZK4Y1DWJnKOjbSzzY0ESpiH5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Cindy Morgan , rfced-future@iab.org Message-ID: <63f65302-e7d0-bd94-d83b-8131db7dc773@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11 References: In-Reply-To: --------------ZK4Y1DWJnKOjbSzzY0ESpiH5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks, Cindy.=C2=A0 That makes a lot of sense.

ALSO.

Nothing stops anyone from forwarding those last calls to anyone.=C2= =A0 No need to be particular about this.

Eliot


On 02.02.22 21:16, Cindy Morgan wrote:= 
At their meeting earlier tod=
ay, the IAB agreed to send a Call for Comments (IAB version of IETF Last =
Call) on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model. This will have a wider-than-normal =
distribution that includes IETF-Announce, IRTF-Announce and RFC-interest.=


The IAB also noted that this Call for Comments should go out at the same =
time as the IETF Last Calls on draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, draft-r=
osen-rfcefdp-update-2026, and draft-rsalz-2028bis. Lars (as AD sponsor fo=
r those docs) and I (as the Secretariat person who will be pushing the ap=
propriate buttons in the Datatracker for all 4 of these docs) are coordin=
ating.

Thanks,
Cindy


From: Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>=

Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Document for IAB consideration: draft-iab-rfc=
efdp-rfc-model-11
Date: February 2, 2022 at 11:34:08 AM PST
To: Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com>, rfced-future@i=
ab.org


Hi Mike,

I presented the process that I expect to have happen back in the Fall (yo=
u may recall a detailed timeline slide - it's in the materials).  This is=
 an IAB stream document.  That means that RFC 4845 governs, and as I ment=
ioned in the Fall, it's up to the board, not the program, to decide in th=
e end how to weigh community input.  It has been my consistent advice tha=
t the board broadly consult, including the IETF, IRTF, and others, becaus=
e, in my view, this program believes that's the right thing to do (I don'=
t disagree).  The IESG will have to approve changes to the IAB charter, 2=
028, and a slight tweak to 2026.

Eliot



On 02.02.22 19:01, Michael StJohns wrote:

On 2/2/2022 3:51 AM, Eli=
ot Lear wrote:

Dear Board Members,

The chairs of the RFC Editor Future Development Program believe that draf=
t-iab-rfcefdp-rfc-model-11[1] is ready for you to progress.  Given the na=
ture of this work, we suggest that during the community comment period yo=
u seek broad review.  We await any comments or questions you or the commu=
nity might have for us.

As a reminder, the final version of this draft should be published concur=
rently with draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter, draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update=
-2026-01, and draft-rsalz-2028bis-03.txt.  These updates are scoped to re=
flect the change of structure.

Brian & Eliot

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11




Deleting the IAB for a m=
inute.  Shouldn't this note also be directed to the IESG and the LLC Boar=
d?  I believe we were in agreement that it will require approval of all t=
hree groups to go forward with the approval of this document.

Mike


    

  


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From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager 
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Subject: Call for Comment:  (RFC Editor
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Reply-To: iab@iab.org, rfced-future@iab.org
Cc: last-call@ietf.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org,
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This is an announcement of a community-wide Call for Comment on 
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.

The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC 
within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:


The Call for Comment will last until 2022-03-07. Please send comments to
rfced-future@iab.org and iab@iab.org.

Abstract:

   This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.  The model
   defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series.  First,
   policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series
   Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC
   Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals.  Second,
   policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC
   Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF
   Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).

   This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
   RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.

This IAB Call for Comment is running concurrently with the IETF Last 
Call for the following related IETF-stream documents:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
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> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: The IESG 
> Subject: Last Call:  (IAB =
Charter Update for RFC Editor Model) to Best Current Practice
> Date: February 7, 2022 at 20:10:17 GMT+2
> To: "IETF-Announce" 
> Cc: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
> Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to =
consider the
> following document: - 'IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model'
>   as Best Current Practice
>=20
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits =
final
> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, =
comments may
> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the =
beginning
> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
>=20
>   This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent
>   with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-
>   model).
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Begin forwarded message:

From: =
The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: =
Last Call: =
<draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.txt> (IAB Charter Update for =
RFC Editor Model) to Best Current Practice
Date: =
February 7, 2022 at 20:10:17 =
GMT+2
To: =
"IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
Reply-To: =
last-call@ietf.org

The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter =
to consider the
following document: - 'IAB Charter Update =
for RFC Editor Model'
 =
 <draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05.txt> as Best Current =
Practice

The IESG plans to make a decision =
in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this =
action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org =
mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, comments may
be =
sent to iesg@ietf.org =
instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of =
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


 =
  This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be =
consistent
   with the new model for the RFC =
Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-
   model).




The=
 file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-char=
ter/



No =
IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.





=

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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: Last Call:  (Entities Involved in the IETF Standards Process) to Best Current Practice
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> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: The IESG 
> Subject: Last Call:  (Entities Involved in =
the IETF Standards Process) to Best Current Practice
> Date: February 7, 2022 at 20:10:40 GMT+2
> To: "IETF-Announce" 
> Cc: draft-rsalz-2028bis@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
> Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to =
consider the
> following document: - 'Entities Involved in the IETF Standards =
Process'
>   as Best Current Practice
>=20
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits =
final
> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, =
comments may
> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the =
beginning
> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
>=20
>   This document describes the individuals and organizations involved =
in
>   the IETF standards process, as described in IETF BCP 9.  It includes
>   brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they play
>   in the standards process.  This document obsoletes RFC 2028.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_5242749C-0690-4FE7-948C-C55BFD34859C
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Begin forwarded message:

From: =
The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: =
Last Call: =
<draft-rsalz-2028bis-05.txt> (Entities Involved in the IETF =
Standards Process) to Best Current Practice
Date: =
February 7, 2022 at 20:10:40 =
GMT+2
To: =
"IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-rsalz-2028bis@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
Reply-To: =
last-call@ietf.org

The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter =
to consider the
following document: - 'Entities Involved =
in the IETF Standards Process'
 =
 <draft-rsalz-2028bis-05.txt> as Best Current Practice

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next =
few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. =
Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org =
mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, comments may
be =
sent to iesg@ietf.org =
instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of =
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


 =
  This document describes the individuals and organizations =
involved in
   the IETF standards process, as =
described in IETF BCP 9.  It includes
 =
  brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role =
they play
   in the standards process. =
 This document obsoletes RFC 2028.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/



No IPR =
declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.






=

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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: Last Call:  (RFC Series Responsibility Change) to Best Current Practice
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> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: The IESG 
> Subject: Last Call:  (RFC =
Series Responsibility Change) to Best Current Practice
> Date: February 7, 2022 at 20:11:11 GMT+2
> To: "IETF-Announce" 
> Cc: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
> Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to =
consider the
> following document: - 'RFC Series Responsibility Change'
>   as Best Current Practice
>=20
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits =
final
> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, =
comments may
> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the =
beginning
> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
>=20
>   In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC resulting from
>   draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC series
>   moved to the RFC Series Working Group and the RFC Series Approval
>   Board.  This document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Begin forwarded message:

From: =
The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: =
Last Call: =
<draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01.txt> (RFC Series =
Responsibility Change) to Best Current Practice
Date: =
February 7, 2022 at 20:11:11 =
GMT+2
To: =
"IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org
Reply-To: =
last-call@ietf.org

The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter =
to consider the
following document: - 'RFC Series =
Responsibility Change'
 =
 <draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01.txt> as Best Current =
Practice

The IESG plans to make a decision =
in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this =
action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org =
mailing lists by 2022-03-07. Exceptionally, comments may
be =
sent to iesg@ietf.org =
instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of =
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


 =
  In RFCXXXX [RFC Editor, please replace with the RFC =
resulting from
 =
  draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model], responsibility for the RFC =
series
   moved to the RFC Series Working Group =
and the RFC Series Approval
   Board.  This =
document updates RFC2026 to recognize this change.




The file can be =
obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-202=
6/



No IPR =
declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.






=

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In-Reply-To: <370a835f-6fec-1b63-0224-df583a4a43a9@lear.ch>
From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 21:05:48 +1300
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: Call for Comment:  (RFC Editor Model (Version 3))
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Should the IAB send it via liaisons to other SDOs?

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022, 20:03 Eliot Lear,  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> You may wish to forward this announcement widely to those who might have
> some interest or insight.
>
> Eliot
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager 
> To: IETF Announcement List 
> Cc: last-call@ietf.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org,
> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 10:10:04 -0800
> Subject: Call for Comment:  (RFC Editor
> Model (Version 3))
> This is an announcement of a community-wide Call for Comment on
> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.
>
> The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC
> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:
> 
>
> The Call for Comment will last until 2022-03-07. Please send comments to
> rfced-future@iab.org and iab@iab.org.
>
> Abstract:
>
>    This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.  The model
>    defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series.  First,
>    policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series
>    Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC
>    Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals.  Second,
>    policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC
>    Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF
>    Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).
>
>    This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
>    RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
>
> This IAB Call for Comment is running concurrently with the IETF Last
> Call for the following related IETF-stream documents:
>
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
> --
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future
>

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Should the IAB send it via liaisons to other SDOs?
Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Bri=
an Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On=
 Tue, 8 Feb 2022, 20:03 Eliot Lear, <lea=
r@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi every=
one,



You may wish to forward this announcement widely to those who might have 
some interest or insight.



Eliot






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0IAB Execu=
tive Administrative Manager <execd@iab.org>
To:=C2=A0IETF Announcem=
ent List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc:=C2=A0last-call@ietf.=
org, irtf-announce@irtf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.o=
rg, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=
=C2=A0Mon, 07 Feb 2022 10:10:04 -0800
Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: &l=
t;draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11> (RFC Editor Model (Version 3))
Th=
is is an announcement of a community-wide Call for Comment on 

draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.



The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC 
within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:

<https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/>



The Call for Comment will last until 2022-03-07. Please send comments to
rfced-future@iab.org and iab@iab.org.



Abstract:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.=C2=
=A0 The model

=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series.=C2=A0 =
First,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Serie=
s

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the=
 RFC

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals.=
=C2=A0 Second,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the R=
FC

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).



=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document obsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 This document updates =
RFC 7841,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.



This IAB Call for Comment is running concurrently with the IETF Last 

Call for the following related IETF-stream documents:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/



_______________________________________________

IETF-Announce mailing list

IETF-Announce@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ietf-announce

-- 

Rfced-future mailing list

Rfced-future@iab.org

https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc=
ed-future




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To: Brian Carpenter 
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References: <164425740397.25489.18392670988853927409@ietfa.amsl.com> <370a835f-6fec-1b63-0224-df583a4a43a9@lear.ch> 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: Call for Comment:
  (RFC Editor Model (Version 3))
References: <164425740397.25489.18392670988853927409@ietfa.amsl.com>
 <370a835f-6fec-1b63-0224-df583a4a43a9@lear.ch>
 
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For information?=C2=A0 Why not?=C2=A0 But it might just be easier =
for
      people participating in those organizations to share the
      announcement.=C2=A0 I don't think we can reasonably expect many
      organizational responses in a month's time, tho.

    

    
Eliot

    

    
On 08.02.22 09:05, Brian Carpenter
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Should the IAB send it via liaisons to other SDOs=
?

        

        
Regards,

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

          =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

      

      

      

        
On Tue, 8 Feb 2022, 20:03
          Eliot Lear, <lear=
@lear.ch>
          wrote:

        

        
Hi everyone,<=
br>
          

          You may wish to forward this announcement widely to those who
          might have 

          some interest or insight.

          

          Eliot

          

          

          

          

          ---------- Forwarded message ----------

          From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager <exec=
d@iab.org>

          To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>=
;

          Cc:=C2=A0last-call@ietf.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org, <=
a
            href=3D"mailto:rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" target=3D"_blank"=

            rel=3D"noreferrer" moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
            class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org,
          architecture-discuss@ietf.org=


          Bcc:=C2=A0

          Date:=C2=A0Mon, 07 Feb 2022 10:10:04 -0800

          Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment:
          <draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11> (RFC Editor Model
          (Version 3))

          This is an announcement of a community-wide Call for Comment
          on 

          draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.

          

          The document is being considered for publication as an
          Informational RFC 

          within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:

          <http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/>

          

          The Call for Comment will last until 2022-03-07. Please send
          comments to

          rfced-future@iab.org and =
iab@=
iab.org.

          

          Abstract:

          

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Edito=
r Model.=C2=A0
          The model

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Se=
ries.=C2=A0
          First,

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy definition is the joint responsibility of t=
he RFC
          Series

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy propos=
als, and
          the RFC

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such
          proposals.=C2=A0 Second,

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0policy implementation is primarily the responsibil=
ity of
          the RFC

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen =
by the
          IETF

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC=
).

          

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document obsoletes RFC 8728.=C2=A0 This docum=
ent updates
          RFC 7841,

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.

          

          This IAB Call for Comment is running concurrently with the
          IETF Last 

          Call for the following related IETF-stream documents:

          

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026/

          =C2=A0 =C2=A0http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/

          

          _______________________________________________

          IETF-Announce mailing list

          IETF-Announce@ietf.org
          http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

          -- 

          Rfced-future mailing list

          Rfced-future@iab.org

          http=
s://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

        

      

      

      

    

  


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From nobody Wed Feb  9 08:46:38 2022
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From: Paul Hoffman 
To: "rfced-future@iab.org" , "iab@iab.org" 
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 16:46:31 +0000
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Subject: [Rfced-future] Comments on draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
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Greetings again. The structures proposed in this document seem like a =
very good way forward. The level of detail about the expectations on =
each group is a good balance in prescriptiveness.

Two small thoughts on the current draft:

The future status of the rfc-interest mailing list is unclear; see =
Section 3.2.3. Given it s current contents, I could see that it would =
easily become a parallel track for discussions that should be on the =
RSWG mailing list. It might be good to close (and certainly archive!) =
rfc-interest unless it becomes more moderated by someone pointing =
discussions to the RSWG.

Someone is going to have to tool the tracking for RSWG documents after =
they leave the RSWG, given that this is a new process. That might be =
informal (but public) tracking, but I suspect that formally tracking the =
various rfc799*-bis documents will prevent later issues from arising =
based on missed cross-dependencies. Maybe adding a sentence or two about =
this to the current draft will keep it in our minds as we move forward.

--Paul Hoffman


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From: Brian Rosen 
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 15:00:10 -0500
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To: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [Last-Call] Tsvart last call review of draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01
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I don=E2=80=99t care that much.  I will note that -rfced-model assumes =
that this change is made, without having any normative statements about =
the matter, and =E2=80=9Cjustification=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t usually a =
reason for a normative reference, but I=E2=80=99ll make the change if =
others want me to.

Brian


> On Feb 9, 2022, at 2:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> On 10-Feb-22 06:53, Bernard Aboba via Datatracker wrote:
>> Reviewer: Bernard Aboba
>> Review result: Almost Ready
>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review =
team's
>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were =
written
>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the =
document's
>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to =
the IETF
>> discussion list for information.
>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider =
this
>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always =
CC
>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
>> This document updates RFC 2026 so as to be compatible with the =
proposed
>> RFC Editor Model v3.
>> This document has no transport-related implications.
>> NITs:
>> "It no " -> "It is no"
>> Given that  [I-D.iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model] provides the justification =
for the
>> change to RFC 2026, it seems like it should be a normative rather =
than an
>> informative reference.
>=20
> That would be a downref. However, we decided to do exactly what you =
suggest
> in draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter.
>=20
>     Brian
>=20
>=20


From nobody Wed Feb  9 12:11:12 2022
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To: Brian Rosen 
Cc: Bernard Aboba , tsv-art@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026.all@ietf.org, rfced-future@iab.org
References: <164442923749.24453.13117947281136337416@ietfa.amsl.com> <65ab4aea-e131-239e-b6af-68702f6f9741@gmail.com> <69A33080-4A61-4203-A084-1B86415DDC43@brianrosen.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 09:10:43 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] [Last-Call] Tsvart last call review of draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01
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The additional argument I was given was that it would automatically synch=
ronize the documents in the RFC Editing process. But I too don't care tha=
t much.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 10-Feb-22 09:00, Brian Rosen wrote:
> 
> I don=E2=80=99t care that much.  I will note that -rfced-model assumes =
that this change is made, without having any normative statements about t=
he matter, and =E2=80=9Cjustification=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t usually a re=
ason for a normative reference, but I=E2=80=99ll make the change if other=
s want me to.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>=20
>> On Feb 9, 2022, at 2:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> On 10-Feb-22 06:53, Bernard Aboba via Datatracker wrote:
>>> Reviewer: Bernard Aboba
>>> Review result: Almost Ready
>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review =
team's
>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were writ=
ten
>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the doc=
ument's
>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to=20
the IETF
>>> discussion list for information.
>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider =
this
>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always =
CC
>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
>>> This document updates RFC 2026 so as to be compatible with the propos=
ed
>>> RFC Editor Model v3.
>>> This document has no transport-related implications.
>>> NITs:
>>> "It no " -> "It is no"
>>> Given that  [I-D.iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model] provides the justification =
for the
>>> change to RFC 2026, it seems like it should be a normative rather tha=
n an
>>> informative reference.
>>
>> That would be a downref. However, we decided to do exactly what you su=
ggest
>> in draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter.
>>
>>      Brian
>>
>>
>=20


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To: Paul Hoffman , "rfced-future@iab.org" , "iab@iab.org" 
References: <74AF211B-741E-46FC-9E35-8015D5254515@icann.org>
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To: Eliot Lear , Paul Hoffman , "rfced-future@iab.org" , "iab@iab.org" 
References: <74AF211B-741E-46FC-9E35-8015D5254515@icann.org> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:52:40 +1300
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On 11-Feb-22 03:42, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>=20
>=20
> On 09.02.22 17:46, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>> Greetings again. The structures proposed in this document seem like a =
very good way forward. The level of detail about the expectations on each=20
group is a good balance in prescriptiveness.
>>
>> Two small thoughts on the current draft:
>>
>> The future status of the rfc-interest mailing list is unclear; see Sec=
tion 3.2.3. Given it s current contents, I could see that it would easily=20
become a parallel track for discussions that should be on the RSWG mailin=
g list. It might be good to close (and certainly archive!) rfc-interest u=
nless it becomes more moderated by someone pointing discussions to the RS=
WG.
>=20
> I like the idea of at least having some RSWG participation to point
> people to the right place, when necessary.

There's a slightly wider operational question of which new mailing lists =
will be needed and which existing ones need to be tweaked or closed. IMHO=20
that doesn't really belong in the founding document.
 =20
>=20
>>
>> Someone is going to have to tool the tracking for RSWG documents after=20
they leave the RSWG, given that this is a new process. That might be info=
rmal (but public) tracking, but I suspect that formally tracking the vari=
ous rfc799*-bis documents will prevent later issues from arising based on=20
missed cross-dependencies. Maybe adding a sentence or two about this to t=
he current draft will keep it in our minds as we move forward.
>=20
> Good idea.=C2=A0 Perhaps something along the lines, =E2=80=9CThe LLC is=20
requested to
> provide necessary tooling to support RSWG and RSAB decision processes
> and policies.=E2=80=9D

Make it "communication, decision processes and policies" and that also co=
vers mailing lists and conferencing tools.

      Brian

>=20
> ?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20


From nobody Sun Feb 13 06:22:58 2022
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From: Colin Perkins 
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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:22:36 +0000
Cc: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
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To: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] New Version Notification for draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt
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On re-reading this draft, I noticed the following two points:

=C2=A73.1.1.4: "The intent is that the RSWG shall operate in a way =
similar to working groups in the IETF and research groups in the IRTF."

=C2=A73.2.2: "the RSWG may adopt the proposal as a draft proposal of the =
RSWG, in much the same way a working group of the IETF or research group =
of the IRTF would"

There are some significant differences in the way IRTF and IETF groups =
are permitted to operate. To avoid confusion, these sections might be =
better phrased by omitting the references to IRTF.

Apologies that I didn=E2=80=99t catch these earlier.

Colin




> On 1 Feb 2022, at 14:47, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>=20
> FYI.
>=20
>=20
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt
> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2022 06:45:46 -0800
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Peter Saint-Andre 
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Peter Saint-Andre and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Revision:	11
> Title:		RFC Editor Model (Version 3)
> Document date:	2022-02-01
> Group:		iab
> Pages:		32
> URL: =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11.txt
> Status: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model/
> Htmlized: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model
> Diff: =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model.  The =
model
>   defines two high-level tasks related to the RFC Series.  First,
>   policy definition is the joint responsibility of the RFC Series
>   Working Group (RSWG), which produces policy proposals, and the RFC
>   Series Approval Board (RSAB), which approves such proposals.  =
Second,
>   policy implementation is primarily the responsibility of the RFC
>   Production Center (RPC) as contractually overseen by the IETF
>   Administration Limited Liability Company (IETF LLC).
>=20
>   This document obsoletes RFC 8728.  This document updates RFC 7841,
>   RFC 8729, and RFC 8730.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future



--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





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From: Dan Romascanu 
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 17:35:53 +0200
Message-ID: 
To: Last Call , rfced-future@iab.org
Cc: yang-doctors@ietf.org, "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" ,  Lars Eggert , Robert Wilton , Mehmet 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b335ed05d7fc2c66"
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Hi,

I reviewed on behalf of the YANG Doctors team the four documents submitted
for comments associated with the change in the RFC Editor model. My reading
and review concerns only aspects related to documents related to YANG,
containing or refering to YANG models and the review process of these
documents.

Here are my findings and comments:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05

Ready

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis-05

Ready with Issues

The document is ready from the perspective of the YANG Doctors, with one
comment. The document does not mention in any place the role of the IETF
Directorates and review teams such as the YANG Doctors in the IETF
documents review process. As the reviews of these teams are part of the
process I suggest considering adding text, possibly in Section 3.

ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01


Ready

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11

Ready

Thanks and Regards,

Dan

--000000000000b335ed05d7fc2c66
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi, 

I reviewed on behal=
f of the YANG Doctors team the four documents submitted for comments associ=
ated with the change in the RFC Editor model. My reading and review concern=
s only aspects related to documents related to YANG, containing or refering=
 to YANG models and the review process of these documents. 
<=
br>
Here are my findings and comments:

=

Ready 



The document is ready from the perspective of the YANG Doctors, with=
 one comment. The document does not mention in any place the role of the IE=
TF Directorates and review teams such as the YANG Doctors in the IETF docum=
ents review process. As the reviews of these teams are part of the process =
I suggest considering adding text, possibly in Section 3.
Ready

=


Ready

Thanks and Regards,

Dan


<=
/div>







--000000000000b335ed05d7fc2c66--


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 Lars Eggert 
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Hi Dan,

    
Thanks for your review.=C2=A0 YANG and directorate reviews are par=
t of
      IETF process.=C2=A0 This document does not address IETF process, bu=
t
      rather the evolution of the process that oversees the RFC series
      and RFC editor.

    
As such, IMHO discussing YANG reviews or directorate reviews is
      out of scope.

    
Regards,

    

    
Eliot

    

    


    

    
On 14.02.22 16:35, Dan Romascanu wrote=
:

    

    

      
      

        
Hi, 

        

        


        

        
I reviewed on behalf of the YANG Doctors team the four
          documents submitted for comments associated with the change in
          the RFC Editor model. My reading and review concerns only
          aspects related to documents related to YANG, containing or
          refering to YANG models and the review process of these
          documents. 

        

        


        

        
Here are my findings and comments:

        


        

        
        


        

        
Ready 

        

        


        

        
        


        

        
Ready with Issues

        


        

        
The document is ready from the perspective of the YANG
          Doctors, with one comment. The document does not mention in
          any place the role of the IETF Directorates and review teams
          such as the YANG Doctors in the IETF documents review process.
          As the reviews of these teams are part of the process I
          suggest considering adding text, possibly in Section 3.

        


        

        
        


          

        
Ready

        


          

        
        


        

        
Ready

        


        

        
Thanks and Regards,

        


        

        
Dan

        


        

        

        


          

        


          

        


          

        


        

        


        

        

        

        


        

      

      

      

    

  


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From: Dan Romascanu 
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:19:30 +0200
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Last Call , rfced-future@iab.org,  Robert Wilton , yang-doctors@ietf.org,  "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" , Mehmet , Lars Eggert 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Last Call Reviews of documents associated with the change in the RFC Editor model
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--000000000000f997ab05d80022f8
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Hi Eliott,

My comment was made on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis-05.

The title of this document is ''Entities Involved in the IETF Standards
Process'.The Abstract of this document says:

>    This document describes the individuals and organizations involved in

   the IETF standards process, as described in IETF BCP 9.  It includes
   brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they play
   in the standards process.


This kind of contradicts your statement:


> This document does not address IETF process, but rather the evolution of
the process that oversees the RFC series and RFC editor.

So I believe that my comment stands.

Regards,

Dan

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 7:19 PM Eliot Lear  wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> Thanks for your review.  YANG and directorate reviews are part of IETF
> process.  This document does not address IETF process, but rather the
> evolution of the process that oversees the RFC series and RFC editor.
>
> As such, IMHO discussing YANG reviews or directorate reviews is out of
> scope.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eliot
>
>
> On 14.02.22 16:35, Dan Romascanu wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I reviewed on behalf of the YANG Doctors team the four documents submitted
> for comments associated with the change in the RFC Editor model. My reading
> and review concerns only aspects related to documents related to YANG,
> containing or refering to YANG models and the review process of these
> documents.
>
> Here are my findings and comments:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-05
>
> Ready
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis-05
>
> Ready with Issues
>
> The document is ready from the perspective of the YANG Doctors, with one
> comment. The document does not mention in any place the role of the IETF
> Directorates and review teams such as the YANG Doctors in the IETF
> documents review process. As the reviews of these teams are part of the
> process I suggest considering adding text, possibly in Section 3.
>
> ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026-01
> 
>
> Ready
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
>
> Ready
>
> Thanks and Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000f997ab05d80022f8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Eliott,

My comment was made on https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis-05. 

The title of this do=
cument is ''Entities Involved in the IETF Standards Process'.Th=
e Abstract of this document says: 

> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document d=
escribes the individuals and organizations involved in

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
the IETF standards process, as described in IETF BCP 9.=C2=A0 It includes=C2=A0 =C2=A0brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role th=
ey play
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the standards process. 


This kind of =
contradicts your statement: 


> This document does not address=
 IETF process, but rather the evolution of the process that oversees the RF=
C series and RFC editor.

So I believe that my comment stands.=C2=A0<=
div>
Regards,

Dan

On Mon, Feb 14=
, 2022 at 7:19 PM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.=
ch> wrote:

     =20
      

        
Hi, 

        

        


        

        
I reviewed on behalf of the YANG Doctors team the four
          documents submitted for comments associated with the change in
          the RFC Editor model. My reading and review concerns only
          aspects related to documents related to YANG, containing or
          refering to YANG models and the review process of these
          documents. 

        

        


        

        
Here are my findings and comments:

        


        

        
        


        

        
Ready 

        

        


        

        
        


        

        
Ready with Issues

        


        

        
The document is ready from the perspective of the YANG
          Doctors, with one comment. The document does not mention in
          any place the role of the IETF Directorates and review teams
          such as the YANG Doctors in the IETF documents review process.
          As the reviews of these teams are part of the process I
          suggest considering adding text, possibly in Section 3.

        


        

        
        


          

        
Ready

        


          

        
        


        

        
Ready

        


        

        
Thanks and Regards,

        


        

        
Dan

        


        

        

        


          

        


          

        


          

        


        

        


        

        

        

        


        

      

      

      

    

  





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AHHH.... Ok.=C2=A0 My bad.=C2=A0 Quite a number of documents flyin=
g around
      on this one.

    
Eliot

    

    
On 14.02.22 21:19, Dan Romascanu wrote=
:

    

    

      
      
Hi Eliott,

        

        My comment was made on https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis-05.
        

        

        The title of this document is ''Entities Involved in the IETF
        Standards Process'.The Abstract of this document says: 

        

        > =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the individuals and
        organizations involved in

        

        =C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF standards process, as described in IETF BCP=
 9.=C2=A0 It
        includes

        =C2=A0 =C2=A0brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the=
 role
        they play

        =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the standards process. 

        

        

        This kind of contradicts your statement: 

        

        

        > This document does not address IETF process, but rather the
        evolution of the process that oversees the RFC series and RFC
        editor.

        

        So I believe that my comment stands.=C2=A0
        


        

        
Regards,

        


        

        
Dan

        


          

            
On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at=

              7:19 PM Eliot Lear <=
lear@lear.ch>
              wrote:

            

            

              

                
Hi Dan,

                
Thanks for your review.=C2=A0 YANG and directorate rev=
iews
                  are part of IETF process.=C2=A0 This document does not
                  address IETF process, but rather the evolution of the
                  process that oversees the RFC series and RFC editor.
                
As such, IMHO discussing YANG reviews or directorate
                  reviews is out of scope.

                
Regards,

                

                
Eliot

                

                


                

                
On 14.02.22 16:35, Dan Romascanu wrote:

                

                

                  

                    
Hi, 

                    

                    


                    

                    
I reviewed on behalf of the YANG Doctors team
                      the four documents submitted for comments
                      associated with the change in the RFC Editor
                      model. My reading and review concerns only aspects
                      related to documents related to YANG, containing
                      or refering to YANG models and the review process
                      of these documents. 

                    

                    


                    

                    
Here are my findings and comments:

                    


                    

                    
                    


                    

                    
Ready 

                    

                    


                    

                    
                    


                    

                    
Ready with Issues

                    


                    

                    
The document is ready from the perspective of
                      the YANG Doctors, with one comment. The document
                      does not mention in any place the role of the IETF
                      Directorates and review teams such as the YANG
                      Doctors in the IETF documents review process. As
                      the reviews of these teams are part of the process
                      I suggest considering adding text, possibly in
                      Section 3.

                    


                    

                    
                    


                      

                    
Ready

                    


                      

                    
                    


                    

                    
Ready

                    


                    

                    
Thanks and Regards,

                    


                    

                    
Dan

                    


                    

                    

                    


                      

                    


                      

                    


                      

                    


                    

                    


                    

                    

                    

                    


                    

                  

                  

                  

                

              

            

          

        

      

    

  


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To: "rfced-future@iab.org" 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <4ad40a10-b7ad-f8cc-b1c4-a460f94e1997@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:36:10 +1300
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Subject: [Rfced-future] Who initially convenes the RSWG and the RSAB?
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Hi,

It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the draft who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or the RSAB for the first time.

I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but would be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.

For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. For the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but I think somebody should be identified.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter


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To: Brian E Carpenter , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who initially convenes the RSWG and the RSAB?
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On 2022-02-18 07:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the draft 
> who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or the 
> RSAB for the first time.
> 
> I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but would 
> be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.
> 
> For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. For 
> the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but I 
> think somebody should be identified.

The people on the RSAB should all have quite a bit of experience with 
getting organized, so I don't worry too much. If we need somebody 
formally, it could be the IAB chair, as this would be the hand-off from 
the IAB　to the RSAB.

Regards,   Martin.

> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
> 


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From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:20:35 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who initially convenes the RSWG and the RSAB?
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So, we agree that the RSWG chairs will convene the WG (by announcing the
mailing list, I guess) but I don't understand how the RSAB will pick a
chair unless someone is designated to convene the meeting that picks a
chair. I don't care who but istm we need to designate somebody.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, 22:08 Eliot Lear,  wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> With regard to the RSWG, my read is that the actions rest with the IAB
> to have a plan in terms of how they will appoint chairs, but I don't
> think we can ask them to execute on that plan until
> draft-iab-rfcedp-rfced-model is approved.
>
> The RSAB is formed by the approval of the document, and we should just
> allow that they will take the action to appoint a chair.
>
> The chairs can then convene the groups.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 17.02.22 23:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the
> > draft who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first
> > time, or the RSAB for the first time.
> >
> > I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but
> > would be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.
> >
> > For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed.
> > For the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but
> > I think somebody should be identified.
> >
> > Regards
> >    Brian Carpenter
> >
>

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So, we agree that the RSWG chairs will convene the WG (by=
 announcing the mailing list, I guess) but I don't understand how the R=
SAB will pick a chair unless someone is designated to convene the meeting t=
hat picks a chair. I don't care who but istm we need to designate someb=
ody.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyb=
oard)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, 22:08 Eliot Lear, <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi Brian,



With regard to the RSWG, my read is that the actions rest with the IAB 

to have a plan in terms of how they will appoint chairs, but I don't 
think we can ask them to execute on that plan until 

draft-iab-rfcedp-rfced-model is approved.



The RSAB is formed by the approval of the document, and we should just 

allow that they will take the action to appoint a chair.



The chairs can then convene the groups.



Eliot



On 17.02.22 23:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,

>

> It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the=
 

> draft who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first 

> time, or the RSAB for the first time.

>

> I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but=
 

> would be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.

>

> For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. 
> For the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, =
but 

> I think somebody should be identified.

>

> Regards

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

>




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From: Brian Carpenter 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:21:26 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who initially convenes the RSWG and the RSAB?
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wfm

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, 22:09 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst,  w=
rote:

> On 2022-02-18 07:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the draf=
t
> > who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or th=
e
> > RSAB for the first time.
> >
> > I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but woul=
d
> > be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.
> >
> > For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. For
> > the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but I
> > think somebody should be identified.
>
> The people on the RSAB should all have quite a bit of experience with
> getting organized, so I don't worry too much. If we need somebody
> formally, it could be the IAB chair, as this would be the hand-off from
> the IAB to the RSAB.
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
> > Regards
> >     Brian Carpenter
> >
>

--000000000000fc30a205d84768cc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


wfm

Regard=
s,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny sc=
reen & keyboard)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, 22:09 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, =
<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>=
; wrote:
On 2022-02-18 07:36, Brian=
 E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,

> 

> It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the=
 draft 

> who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or t=
he 

> RSAB for the first time.

> 

> I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but=
 would 

> be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.

> 

> For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. Fo=
r 

> the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but =
I 

> think somebody should be identified.



The people on the RSAB should all have quite a bit of experience with 

getting organized, so I don't worry too much. If we need somebody 

formally, it could be the IAB chair, as this would be the hand-off from 
the IAB=E3=80=80to the RSAB.



Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.



> Regards

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter

> 




--000000000000fc30a205d84768cc--


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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:02:05 -0700
Cc: =?utf-8?Q?"Martin_J._D=C3=BCrst"?= , rfced-future@iab.org
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References: 
To: Brian Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Who initially convenes the RSWG and the RSAB?
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Yes, this seems reasonable.

> On Feb 18, 2022, at 2:21 AM, Brian Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> wfm
>=20
> Regards,
>     Brian Carpenter
>     (via tiny screen & keyboard)
>=20
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022, 22:09 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, =
 wrote:
>> On 2022-02-18 07:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >=20
>> > It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the draf=
t=20
>> > who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or th=
e=20
>> > RSAB for the first time.
>> >=20
>> > I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but woul=
d=20
>> > be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.
>> >=20
>> > For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. For=
=20
>> > the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but I=20
>> > think somebody should be identified.
>>=20
>> The people on the RSAB should all have quite a bit of experience with=20
>> getting organized, so I don't worry too much. If we need somebody=20
>> formally, it could be the IAB chair, as this would be the hand-off from=20=

>> the IAB=E3=80=80to the RSAB.
>>=20
>> Regards,   Martin.
>>=20
>> > Regards
>> >     Brian Carpenter
>> >=20
> --=20
> Rfced-future mailing list
> Rfced-future@iab.org
> https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-future

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Yes, this seems reasonable.

On Feb 18, 2022, at 2:21 AM, Brian Carpen=
ter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
wfm
Regards,
    Bri=
an Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Fri=
, 18 Feb 2022, 22:09 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
On 2022-02-18 07:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,

> 

> It just occurred to me that I don't believe we say anywhere in the draf=
t 

> who will take the actions to convene the RSWG for the first time, or th=
e 

> RSAB for the first time.

> 

> I don't think we necessarily need to add this to the document, but woul=
d 

> be good to know that *somebody* owns those two actions.

> 

> For the RSWG, it would presumably be the co-chairs, once appointed. For=
 

> the RSAB, it's arbitrary, since the RSAB picks its own chair, but I 
> think somebody should be identified.



The people on the RSAB should all have quite a bit of experience with 

getting organized, so I don't worry too much. If we need somebody 

formally, it could be the IAB chair, as this would be the hand-off from 
=

the IAB=E3=80=80to the RSAB.



Regards,   Martin.



> Regards

>     Brian Carpenter

> 



-- 
Rfced-future mailing list
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ture@iab.org
https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/rfced-futu=
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Events=20

Issues
------
* intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)
  2 issues created:
  - Colin Perkins Comments (by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/155=20
  - Paul Hoffman Comments (by elear)
    https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future/issues/154=20




Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/intarchboard/program-rfced-future

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Weekly github digest (RFC Editor Future Development Program Activity=
 Summary)





Sunday February 20, 2022



Events 



Issues



intarchboard/program-rfced-future (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

  
2 issues created:

  






  

    Repositories tracked by this digest:






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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] Artart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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FYI.

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Thomas Fossati via Datatracker 
> Subject: [IAB] Artart last call review of =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
> Date: 21. February 2022 at 16:36:59 CET
> To: 
> Cc: last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
> Reply-To: Thomas Fossati 
>=20
> Reviewer: Thomas Fossati
> Review result: Ready
>=20
> The document is very clear, straightforward and readable.
> Thank you Peter and everyone who contributed to the production of this =
important work.
>=20
>=20
>=20


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FYI.

Begin forwarded =
message:

From: =
Thomas Fossati via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[IAB] Artart last =
call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
Date: =
21. February 2022 at 16:36:59 =
CET
To: =
<art@ietf.org>
Cc: =
last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
Reply-To: =
Thomas Fossati <thomas.fossati@arm.com>

Reviewer: Thomas Fossati
Review result: Ready

The =
document is very clear, straightforward and readable.
Thank =
you Peter and everyone who contributed to the production of this =
important work.




=

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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Wesley Eddy via Datatracker 
> Subject: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
> Date: 21. February 2022 at 16:28:43 CET
> To: 
> Cc: last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
> Reply-To: Wesley Eddy 
>=20
> Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>=20
> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review =
team's
> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were =
written
> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the =
document's
> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to =
the IETF
> discussion list for information.
>=20
> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider =
this
> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always =
CC
> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
>=20
> I don't have any major concern with this, just a handful of small =
comments that
> are maybe more than "nits", so I selected 'Ready with Issues'.
>=20
> 1) Early the the document the concept of the RSWG is introduced and =
later
> described in detail in 3.1.1.  I wasn't sure at first if this was =
supposed to
> be an IETF working group (in the GEN area) or if it was intended to be
> "outside" of the IETF.  This seems more clear in section 3.1.1, but I =
would
> suggest thinking about if there's another term than "working group" =
that might
> fit, to distinguish it better.
>=20
> 2) Section 3 says "that pass a last call for comments in the working =
group and
> broader community", but it doesn't provide any hint at what the =
"broader
> community" is supposed to include.
>=20
> 3) The RSAB seems very complex and cumbersome for its simple role of =
basically
> confirming what the RSWG outputs.
> Since everyone on the RSAB is expected to be actively participating in =
the
> RSWG and would have weight in the RSWG consensus process, it isn't =
really
> clear to my why this is felt to be necessary (to have a separate =
organization
> with extra meetings, rules, etc.).  It seems like the RSAB shouldn't =
need to
> do much of anything separately if the RSWG is working properly, and =
RSAB is
> extra bureaucracy.  I'm just asking if it's certain this is really =
wanted and
> needed, since it would be harder to unwind later.  Maybe the reasoning =
why a
> separate board (beyond the chairs) is needed to approve the RSWG =
outputs could
> be described.
>=20
> 4) Section 3.1.1.3 mentions that feedback on the RSWG chairs can go to =
the
> appointing bodies, but isn't clear how that would be collected (nomcom =
tools?).
>=20
> 5) Is there any issue to be discussed of potential overlap between =
co-chairs of
> the RSWG, RSAB members, and other roles like being on the IESG, IAB, =
or IRSG,
> employees of the RPC, or other roles?  Can someone serve as RSWG =
co-chair while
> also on the IAB, for instance?  It seems to me like the people with =
willingness
> and bandwidth to do these things has always been a bit limited in =
number, so
> maybe worth considering.  Also, can both RSWG co-chairs work for the =
same
> company?
>=20
> 6) In general, since this is adding extra things that didn't exist =
before, it
> would be nice if the introduction was more clear about what the =
problem that
> this is trying to solve is.  In other words, why is this formality =
needed now,
> when ~10k RFCs have been able to be published without it in the past.  =
What
> part isn't working well enough?  The introduction just talks about =
there having
> been meetings, and lists a lot of good properties that are desired, =
but doesn't
> seem clear which if any of these have been lacking or why these =
changes address
> that.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
>=20


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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: =
Wesley Eddy via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[Tsv-art] Tsvart =
last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
Date: =
21. February 2022 at 16:28:43 =
CET
To: =
<tsv-art@ietf.org>
Cc: =
last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
Reply-To: =
Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>

Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Ready with Issues

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area =
review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. =
These comments were written
primarily for the transport =
area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors =
and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the =
IETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should =
consider this
review as part of the last-call comments =
they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org if you =
reply to or forward this review.

I don't =
have any major concern with this, just a handful of small comments =
that
are maybe more than "nits", so I selected 'Ready with =
Issues'.

1) Early the the document the =
concept of the RSWG is introduced and later
described in =
detail in 3.1.1.  I wasn't sure at first if this was supposed to
be an IETF working group (in the GEN area) or if it was =
intended to be
"outside" of the IETF.  This seems =
more clear in section 3.1.1, but I would
suggest thinking =
about if there's another term than "working group" that might
fit, to distinguish it better.

2) =
Section 3 says "that pass a last call for comments in the working group =
and
broader community", but it doesn't provide any hint at =
what the "broader
community" is supposed to include.

3) The RSAB seems very complex and cumbersome =
for its simple role of basically
confirming what the RSWG =
outputs.
 Since everyone on the RSAB is expected to be =
actively participating in the
 RSWG and would have weight =
in the RSWG consensus process, it isn't really
 clear to =
my why this is felt to be necessary (to have a separate organization
 with extra meetings, rules, etc.).  It seems like the =
RSAB shouldn't need to
 do much of anything separately if =
the RSWG is working properly, and RSAB is
 extra =
bureaucracy.  I'm just asking if it's certain this is really wanted =
and
 needed, since it would be harder to unwind later. =
 Maybe the reasoning why a
 separate board (beyond =
the chairs) is needed to approve the RSWG outputs could
 =
be described.

4) Section 3.1.1.3 mentions =
that feedback on the RSWG chairs can go to the
appointing =
bodies, but isn't clear how that would be collected (nomcom tools?).

5) Is there any issue to be discussed of =
potential overlap between co-chairs of
the RSWG, RSAB =
members, and other roles like being on the IESG, IAB, or IRSG,
employees of the RPC, or other roles?  Can someone serve =
as RSWG co-chair while
also on the IAB, for instance? =
 It seems to me like the people with willingness
and =
bandwidth to do these things has always been a bit limited in number, =
so
maybe worth considering.  Also, can both RSWG =
co-chairs work for the same
company?

6) In general, since this is adding extra things that didn't =
exist before, it
would be nice if the introduction was =
more clear about what the problem that
this is trying to =
solve is.  In other words, why is this formality needed now,
when ~10k RFCs have been able to be published without it in =
the past.  What
part isn't working well enough? =
 The introduction just talks about there having
been =
meetings, and lists a lot of good properties that are desired, but =
doesn't
seem clear which if any of these have been lacking =
or why these changes address
that.



_______________________________________________
Tsv-art mailing list
Tsv-art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art

=

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References: <164545732324.20916.8410169308620287579@ietfa.amsl.com> <2FEF33E6-617D-4613-852B-A203CF839587@kuehlewind.net>
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Hi Wes and thanks for your review.=C2=A0 Please see below.

    

    
On 21.02.22 17:33, Mirja Kuehlewind
      wrote:

    

    

      
      FYI

      


        

          
Begin forwarded message:

          

          
From: Wesley Eddy via Datatracker <=
noreply@ietf.org>

            

          
Subject: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last=

                call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11

            

          
Date: 21. February 2022 at 16:28:43 CET
            

          
To: <=
tsv-art@ietf.org>

            

          
Cc: =
last-call@ietf.org,
              iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org

            

          
Reply-To: Wesley Eddy <=
wes@mti-systems.com>

            

          

          

            
Reviewer: Wesley Eddy

              Review result: Ready with Issues

              

              This document has been reviewed as part of the transport
              area review team's

              ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These
              comments were written

              primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied
              to the document's

              authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised
              and also to the IETF

              discussion list for information.

              

              When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors
              should consider this

              review as part of the last-call comments they receive.
              Please always CC

              =
tsv-art@ietf.org
              if you reply to or forward this review.

              

              I don't have any major concern with this, just a handful
              of small comments that

              are maybe more than "nits", so I selected 'Ready with
              Issues'.

              

              1) Early the the document the concept of the RSWG is
              introduced and later

              described in detail in 3.1.1. =C2=A0I wasn't sure at first =
if
              this was supposed to

              be an IETF working group (in the GEN area) or if it was
              intended to be

              "outside" of the IETF. =C2=A0This seems more clear in secti=
on
              3.1.1, but I would

              suggest thinking about if there's another term than
              "working group" that might

              fit, to distinguish it better.

            

          

        

      

    

    
The program did discuss this and came to the conclusion that
      because the RSWG functions much like an IETF working group,
      "working group" was appropriate.=C2=A0 While we recognized that the=
re
      might be a small amount of confusion, this could be easily
      rectified as people engage in the process.

    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            


              2) Section 3 says "that pass a last call for comments in
              the working group and

              broader community", but it doesn't provide any hint at
              what the "broader

              community" is supposed to include.

            

          

        

      

    

    
This has been a point of discussion, and is covered in more
      detail in Section 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Perhaps a forward reference would he=
lp.

    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            


              3) The RSAB seems very complex and cumbersome for its
              simple role of basically

              confirming what the RSWG outputs.

              Since everyone on the RSAB is expected to be actively
              participating in the

              RSWG and would have weight in the RSWG consensus process,
              it isn't really

              clear to my why this is felt to be necessary (to have a
              separate organization

              with extra meetings, rules, etc.). =C2=A0It seems like the =
RSAB
              shouldn't need to

              do much of anything separately if the RSWG is working
              properly, and RSAB is

              extra bureaucracy. =C2=A0I'm just asking if it's certain th=
is
              is really wanted and

              needed, since it would be harder to unwind later. =C2=A0May=
be
              the reasoning why a

              separate board (beyond the chairs) is needed to approve
              the RSWG outputs could

              be described.

            

          

        

      

    

    
The purpose of the RSWG is to allow an open forum to drive
      process.=C2=A0 The purpose of the RSAB is to allow a brake on that
      process if the process is going to break streams.=C2=A0 The reason =
RSAB
      members are expected to participate in the RSWG is so that when a
      CONCERN is raised, it is hopefully not a surprise.=C2=A0 If you hav=
e a
      way to simplify this explanation in the document, that could be
      very helpful.

    

    


    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            


              4) Section 3.1.1.3 mentions that feedback on the RSWG
              chairs can go to the

              appointing bodies, but isn't clear how that would be
              collected (nomcom tools?).

          

        

      

    

    
This is indeed left to the appointing bodies themselves to figure
      out.

    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            


              5) Is there any issue to be discussed of potential overlap
              between co-chairs of

              the RSWG, RSAB members, and other roles like being on the
              IESG, IAB, or IRSG,

              employees of the RPC, or other roles? =C2=A0Can someone ser=
ve
              as RSWG co-chair while

              also on the IAB, for instance? =C2=A0It seems to me like th=
e
              people with willingness

              and bandwidth to do these things has always been a bit
              limited in number, so

              maybe worth considering. =C2=A0Also, can both RSWG co-chair=
s
              work for the same

              company?

            

          

        

      

    

    
This was not specifically discussed.=C2=A0 The group may wish to
      comment.

    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            


              6) In general, since this is adding extra things that
              didn't exist before, it

              would be nice if the introduction was more clear about
              what the problem that

              this is trying to solve is. =C2=A0In other words, why is th=
is
              formality needed now,

              when ~10k RFCs have been able to be published without it
              in the past. =C2=A0What

              part isn't working well enough? =C2=A0The introduction just=

              talks about there having

              been meetings, and lists a lot of good properties that are
              desired, but doesn't

              seem clear which if any of these have been lacking or why
              these changes address

              that.

            

          

        

      

    

    
Rather than =E2=80=9Cwhat was the problem=E2=80=9D, which we did i=
nvestigate from
      time to time, we spent more time on what people thought Good looks
      like, and how they might reconcile their different visions.=C2=A0
      That's what you're reading.

    
Thanks again for your review.

    

    
Eliot

    

    

  


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To: Eliot Lear , Wesley Eddy 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Last Call 
References: <164545732324.20916.8410169308620287579@ietfa.amsl.com> <2FEF33E6-617D-4613-852B-A203CF839587@kuehlewind.net> <8b5c0c87-bcb5-f261-f957-b2c190c477ac@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 09:06:21 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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I think Wes is showing how people who have not been closely involved
might be puzzled by the appearance of this model "out of the blue",
and I think a few light editorial touches could fix this. In line...

On 22-Feb-22 06:57, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Wes and thanks for your review.=C2=A0 Please see below.
>=20
> On 21.02.22 17:33, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> FYI
>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> *From: *Wesley Eddy via Datatracker 
>>> *Subject: **[Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rf=
ced-model-11*
>>> *Date: *21. February 2022 at 16:28:43 CET
>>> *To: *
>>> *Cc: *last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.=
all@ietf.org
>>> *Reply-To: *Wesley Eddy 
>>>
>>> Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>
>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review =
team's
>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were writ=
ten
>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the doc=
ument's
>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to=20
the IETF
>>> discussion list for information.
>>>
>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider =
this
>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always =
CC
>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
>>>
>>> I don't have any major concern with this, just a handful of small com=
ments that
>>> are maybe more than "nits", so I selected 'Ready with Issues'.
>>>
>>> 1) Early the the document the concept of the RSWG is introduced and l=
ater
>>> described in detail in 3.1.1. =C2=A0I wasn't sure at first if this wa=
s supposed to
>>> be an IETF working group (in the GEN area) or if it was intended to b=
e
>>> "outside" of the IETF. =C2=A0This seems more clear in section 3.1.1, =
but I would
>>> suggest thinking about if there's another term than "working group" t=
hat might
>>> fit, to distinguish it better.
>=20
> The program did discuss this and came to the conclusion that because th=
e RSWG functions much like an IETF working group, "working group" was app=
ropriate.=C2=A0 While we recognized that there might be a small amount of=20
confusion, this could be easily rectified as people engage in the process=
=2E

Exactly right. I suggest that where the text first uses the phrase
"working group" we should qualify it:

OLD:
1. Policy definition governing the Series as a whole. This is the joint r=
esponsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), an open working gro=
up that produces policy proposals,...

NEW:
1. Policy definition governing the Series as a whole. This is the joint r=
esponsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), an open working gro=
up independent of the IETF that produces policy proposals,...
 =20
>>>
>>> 2) Section 3 says "that pass a last call for comments in the working =
group and
>>> broader community", but it doesn't provide any hint at what the "broa=
der
>>> community" is supposed to include.
>=20
> This has been a point of discussion, and is covered in more detail in S=
ection 3.2.3.=C2=A0 Perhaps a forward reference would help.

Yes.

>=20
>>>
>>> 3) The RSAB seems very complex and cumbersome for its simple role of =
basically
>>> confirming what the RSWG outputs.
>>> Since everyone on the RSAB is expected to be actively participating i=
n the
>>> RSWG and would have weight in the RSWG consensus process, it isn't re=
ally
>>> clear to my why this is felt to be necessary (to have a separate orga=
nization
>>> with extra meetings, rules, etc.). =C2=A0It seems like the RSAB shoul=
dn't need to
>>> do much of anything separately if the RSWG is working properly, and R=
SAB is
>>> extra bureaucracy. =C2=A0I'm just asking if it's certain this is real=
ly wanted and
>>> needed, since it would be harder to unwind later. =C2=A0Maybe the rea=
soning why a
>>> separate board (beyond the chairs) is needed to approve the RSWG outp=
uts could
>>> be described.
>=20
> The purpose of the RSWG is to allow an open forum to drive process.=C2=A0=20
The purpose of the RSAB is to allow a brake on that process if the proces=
s is going to break streams.=C2=A0 The reason RSAB members are expected t=
o participate in the RSWG is so that when a CONCERN is raised, it is hope=
fully not a surprise.=C2=A0 If you have a way to simplify this explanatio=
n in the document, that could be very helpful.

Maybe add a note about "checks and balances" in 3.1.2.1. Purpose.

>>>
>>> 4) Section 3.1.1.3 mentions that feedback on the RSWG chairs can go t=
o the
>>> appointing bodies, but isn't clear how that would be collected (nomco=
m tools?).
>=20
> This is indeed left to the appointing bodies themselves to figure out.

So the text should say that.

>>>
>>> 5) Is there any issue to be discussed of potential overlap between co=
-chairs of
>>> the RSWG, RSAB members, and other roles like being on the IESG, IAB, =
or IRSG,
>>> employees of the RPC, or other roles? =C2=A0Can someone serve as RSWG=20
co-chair while
>>> also on the IAB, for instance? =C2=A0It seems to me like the people w=
ith willingness
>>> and bandwidth to do these things has always been a bit limited in num=
ber, so
>>> maybe worth considering. =C2=A0Also, can both RSWG co-chairs work for=20
the same
>>> company?
>=20
> This was not specifically discussed.=C2=A0 The group may wish to commen=
t.

It's valid point. I don't see what we can do except add a general
recommendation that the appointing bodies should consider potential
conflicts of interest.

>=20
>=20
>>>
>>> 6) In general, since this is adding extra things that didn't exist be=
fore, it
>>> would be nice if the introduction was more clear about what the probl=
em that
>>> this is trying to solve is. =C2=A0In other words, why is this formali=
ty needed now,
>>> when ~10k RFCs have been able to be published without it in the past.=20
=C2=A0What
>>> part isn't working well enough? =C2=A0The introduction just talks abo=
ut there having
>>> been meetings, and lists a lot of good properties that are desired, b=
ut doesn't
>>> seem clear which if any of these have been lacking or why these chang=
es address
>>> that.
>=20
> Rather than =E2=80=9Cwhat was the problem=E2=80=9D, which we did invest=
igate from time to time, we spent more time on what people thought Good l=
ooks like, and how they might reconcile their different visions. That's w=
hat you're reading.

Right, but an outsider might well have the same question as Wes. I wonder=

if we should tweak the motivation in the Introduction. Something like:

OLD:
This document reflects experience gained with version 1 and version 2 of =
the Model, and therefore describes version 3 of the Model while remaining=20
consistent with [RFC8729].

NEW:
This document reflects experience gained and problems experienced with ve=
rsion 1 and version 2 of the Model, and therefore describes version 3 of =
the Model while remaining consistent with [RFC8729].

The next paragraph does in fact summarise the problem statement,
but a little obliquely. Personally I wouldn't change it, but if we
made it more direct, the problems we tackled were

- lack of transparency and community input for policies
- unclear lines of authority and responsibility

     Brian



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To: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Last Call 
References: <164545732324.20916.8410169308620287579@ietfa.amsl.com> <2FEF33E6-617D-4613-852B-A203CF839587@kuehlewind.net> <8b5c0c87-bcb5-f261-f957-b2c190c477ac@lear.ch> <2d88c399-a7b8-8963-76aa-2d5fcc43ea57@gmail.com>
From: Wesley Eddy 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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On 2/21/2022 3:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> I think Wes is showing how people who have not been closely involved
> might be puzzled by the appearance of this model "out of the blue",
> and I think a few light editorial touches could fix this. In line...

That's exactly right ... I paid no attention to it, until now! :)

The changes you suggest are small, but work well for me; thanks.



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To: Brian E Carpenter , Eliot Lear , Wesley Eddy 
Cc: rfced-future@iab.org, Last Call 
References: <164545732324.20916.8410169308620287579@ietfa.amsl.com> <2FEF33E6-617D-4613-852B-A203CF839587@kuehlewind.net> <8b5c0c87-bcb5-f261-f957-b2c190c477ac@lear.ch> <2d88c399-a7b8-8963-76aa-2d5fcc43ea57@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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On 2/21/22 1:06 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> I think Wes is showing how people who have not been closely involved
> might be puzzled by the appearance of this model "out of the blue",
> and I think a few light editorial touches could fix this. In line...
> 
> On 22-Feb-22 06:57, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Hi Wes and thanks for your review.  Please see below.
>>
>> On 21.02.22 17:33, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> FYI
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Wesley Eddy via Datatracker 
>>>> *Subject: **[Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of 
>>>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11*
>>>> *Date: *21. February 2022 at 16:28:43 CET
>>>> *To: *
>>>> *Cc: *last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, 
>>>> draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
>>>> *Reply-To: *Wesley Eddy 
>>>>
>>>> Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>>
>>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review 
>>>> team's
>>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were 
>>>> written
>>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the 
>>>> document's
>>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to 
> the IETF
>>>> discussion list for information.
>>>>
>>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider 
>>>> this
>>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
>>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have any major concern with this, just a handful of small 
>>>> comments that
>>>> are maybe more than "nits", so I selected 'Ready with Issues'.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Early the the document the concept of the RSWG is introduced and 
>>>> later
>>>> described in detail in 3.1.1.  I wasn't sure at first if this was 
>>>> supposed to
>>>> be an IETF working group (in the GEN area) or if it was intended to be
>>>> "outside" of the IETF.  This seems more clear in section 3.1.1, but 
>>>> I would
>>>> suggest thinking about if there's another term than "working group" 
>>>> that might
>>>> fit, to distinguish it better.
>>
>> The program did discuss this and came to the conclusion that because 
>> the RSWG functions much like an IETF working group, "working group" 
>> was appropriate.  While we recognized that there might be a small 
>> amount of 
> confusion, this could be easily rectified as people engage in the process.
> 
> Exactly right. I suggest that where the text first uses the phrase
> "working group" we should qualify it:
> 
> OLD:
> 1. Policy definition governing the Series as a whole. This is the joint 
> responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), an open working 
> group that produces policy proposals,...
> 
> NEW:
> 1. Policy definition governing the Series as a whole. This is the joint 
> responsibility of the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG), an open working 
> group independent of the IETF that produces policy proposals,...

WFM.

>>>>
>>>> 2) Section 3 says "that pass a last call for comments in the working 
>>>> group and
>>>> broader community", but it doesn't provide any hint at what the 
>>>> "broader
>>>> community" is supposed to include.
>>
>> This has been a point of discussion, and is covered in more detail in 
>> Section 3.2.3.  Perhaps a forward reference would help.
> 
> Yes.

Agreed.

>>>> 3) The RSAB seems very complex and cumbersome for its simple role of 
>>>> basically
>>>> confirming what the RSWG outputs.
>>>> Since everyone on the RSAB is expected to be actively participating 
>>>> in the
>>>> RSWG and would have weight in the RSWG consensus process, it isn't 
>>>> really
>>>> clear to my why this is felt to be necessary (to have a separate 
>>>> organization
>>>> with extra meetings, rules, etc.).  It seems like the RSAB shouldn't 
>>>> need to
>>>> do much of anything separately if the RSWG is working properly, and 
>>>> RSAB is
>>>> extra bureaucracy.  I'm just asking if it's certain this is really 
>>>> wanted and
>>>> needed, since it would be harder to unwind later.  Maybe the 
>>>> reasoning why a
>>>> separate board (beyond the chairs) is needed to approve the RSWG 
>>>> outputs could
>>>> be described.
>>
>> The purpose of the RSWG is to allow an open forum to drive process. 
> The purpose of the RSAB is to allow a brake on that process if the 
> process is going to break streams.  The reason RSAB members are expected 
> to participate in the RSWG is so that when a CONCERN is raised, it is 
> hopefully not a surprise.  If you have a way to simplify this 
> explanation in the document, that could be very helpful.
> 
> Maybe add a note about "checks and balances" in 3.1.2.1. Purpose.

Yes. To amplify on what Brian said: because we don't want to make it 
especially easy for the RSWG to do something that could cause 
significant harm to the RFC Series or to one of the streams, 
representatives of all of the streams need to sign off on proposals 
approved by the RSWG. So this is a case of cumbersome by design, if you 
will.

>>>> 4) Section 3.1.1.3 mentions that feedback on the RSWG chairs can go 
>>>> to the
>>>> appointing bodies, but isn't clear how that would be collected 
>>>> (nomcom tools?).
>>
>> This is indeed left to the appointing bodies themselves to figure out.
> 
> So the text should say that.

Sure, I can add a few words to that effect.

>>>> 5) Is there any issue to be discussed of potential overlap between 
>>>> co-chairs of
>>>> the RSWG, RSAB members, and other roles like being on the IESG, IAB, 
>>>> or IRSG,
>>>> employees of the RPC, or other roles?  Can someone serve as RSWG 
> co-chair while
>>>> also on the IAB, for instance?  It seems to me like the people with 
>>>> willingness
>>>> and bandwidth to do these things has always been a bit limited in 
>>>> number, so
>>>> maybe worth considering.  Also, can both RSWG co-chairs work for 
> the same
>>>> company?
>>
>> This was not specifically discussed.  The group may wish to comment.
> 
> It's valid point. I don't see what we can do except add a general
> recommendation that the appointing bodies should consider potential
> conflicts of interest.

Without my editor's hat on, I'd be somewhat concerned about limiting our 
pool of candidates for the RSWG chair positions or causing perhaps 
unnecessary churn (e.g., one of the current chairs is subsequently named 
to the IRSG and therefore needs to be replaced). A statement about 
considering potential conflicts of interest seems fine, even if not very 
directive.

>>>> 6) In general, since this is adding extra things that didn't exist 
>>>> before, it
>>>> would be nice if the introduction was more clear about what the 
>>>> problem that
>>>> this is trying to solve is.  In other words, why is this formality 
>>>> needed now,
>>>> when ~10k RFCs have been able to be published without it in the past. 
>   What
>>>> part isn't working well enough?  The introduction just talks about 
>>>> there having
>>>> been meetings, and lists a lot of good properties that are desired, 
>>>> but doesn't
>>>> seem clear which if any of these have been lacking or why these 
>>>> changes address
>>>> that.
>>
>> Rather than “what was the problem”, which we did investigate from time 
>> to time, we spent more time on what people thought Good looks like, 
>> and how they might reconcile their different visions. That's what 
>> you're reading.
> 
> Right, but an outsider might well have the same question as Wes. I wonder
> if we should tweak the motivation in the Introduction. Something like:
> 
> OLD:
> This document reflects experience gained with version 1 and version 2 of 
> the Model, and therefore describes version 3 of the Model while 
> remaining consistent with [RFC8729].
> 
> NEW:
> This document reflects experience gained and problems experienced with 
> version 1 and version 2 of the Model, and therefore describes version 3 
> of the Model while remaining consistent with [RFC8729].
> 
> The next paragraph does in fact summarise the problem statement,
> but a little obliquely. Personally I wouldn't change it, but if we
> made it more direct, the problems we tackled were
> 
> - lack of transparency and community input for policies
> - unclear lines of authority and responsibility

I'll do some wordsmithing along these lines in the next version.

Peter


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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] Opsdir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Dan Romascanu via Datatracker 
> Subject: [IAB] Opsdir last call review of =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
> Date: 22. February 2022 at 12:19:11 CET
> To: 
> Cc: dromasca@gmail.com, last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
> Reply-To: Dan Romascanu 
>=20
> Reviewer: Dan Romascanu
> Review result: Ready
>=20
> This Informational document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor =
Model. The
> document does not define or extend any Internet related protocol. =
There are no
> implications related to the operation or management of the Internet. =
It would
> be useful for the operators to be aware about some of the aspects =
described in
> this document and in the related documents, especially in what =
concerns
> understanding the status of the RFCs (e.g. which RFC documents =
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> Internet Standards). I do not see any problem with the publication of =
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> document from the OPS-DIR perspective.
>=20
>=20
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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: =
Dan Romascanu via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[IAB] Opsdir last =
call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
Date: =
22. February 2022 at 12:19:11 =
CET
To: =
<ops-dir@ietf.org>
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Dan Romascanu <dromasca@gmail.com>

Reviewer: Dan Romascanu
Review result: Ready

 This =
Informational document specifies version 3 of the RFC Editor Model. =
The
 document does not define or extend any Internet =
related protocol. There are no
 implications related to =
the operation or management of the Internet. It would
 be =
useful for the operators to be aware about some of the aspects described =
in
 this document and in the related documents, especially =
in what concerns
 understanding the status of the RFCs =
(e.g. which RFC documents represent
 Internet Standards). =
I do not see any problem with the publication of this
 =
document from the OPS-DIR perspective.




=

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To: Russ Mundy 
Cc: draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, last-call@ietf.org, "rfced-future@iab.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" 
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Secdir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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Hi Russ, thanks for your review. Comments inline.

On 2/23/22 3:51 PM, Russ Mundy via Datatracker wrote:
> Reviewer: Russ Mundy
> Review result: Ready
> 
> Reviewer: Russ Mundy
> Review result: Ready with nits
> 
> I have (re)reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the  IESG.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the  security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
> 
> The summary of the review is: Ready with nits
> 
> The document is well written, understandable and provides sound definition of a
> new version of the RFC Editor Model.
> 
> The only nits that I identified in the document are in the Security
> Considerations section where the wording infers that "the RFC Editor" is a
> single entity (or person). I recognize that the wording in the section came
> mostly from earlier RFC Editor Model versions but since this Model Version
> clearly states that the activities are performed by a collection of multiple
> entities, the wording of section 10 seems inconsistent with other parts of the
> document.

Good catch. We copied the Security Considerations from RFC 6635/8728 and 
didn't properly update it to reflect version 3 of the model.

> Without trying to make this section unduly long or complex, I suggest making
> something like the following changes to section 10:
> 
> First paragraph, third sentence current wording:
> 
> "Since the RFC Editor maintains the index of publications, sufficient security
> must be in place to ...."
> 
> Suggest changing to:
> 
> "Since multiple entities described in this document participate in maintenance
> of the index of publications, sufficient security must be in place and followed
> by each entity to ..."

Something like that would make sense, although we might want to mention 
the RFC Production Center because Section 4.3 specifies that they have 
responsibility for publication, archiving, etc.

> Second paragraph current wording:
> 
> "The IETF LLC should take ..."
> 
> Suggest changing to:
> 
> "The IETF LLC or any other contracting activity(s), e.g., subcontracts,  should
> take ..."

That seems reasonable.

> Again, thanks for the excellent quality draft - hopefully, the suggested
> changes make section 10 clearer.

They do, thanks!

Peter


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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] Rtgdir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Stig Venaas via Datatracker 
> Subject: [IAB] Rtgdir last call review of =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
> Date: 25. February 2022 at 03:00:44 CET
> To: 
> Cc: last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
> Reply-To: Stig Venaas 
>=20
> Reviewer: Stig Venaas
> Review result: Has Nits
>=20
> I have reviewed the document and it is in good shape.
>=20
> The document has a few nits found by the idnits tool. The string "RFC" =
should
> not be included when specifing "obsoletes:" or "updates:". Also the =
abstract
> mentions that the documents obsoletes or updates documents that are =
not listed
> by the obsoletes/updates headers.
>=20
> In 3.1.1.4. paragraph 4:
> "participation for those unable to to attend in person."
> Double "to".
>=20
> I'm wondering whether any of the references should be normative, but =
it may not
> make sense for this document.
>=20
>=20
>=20


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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: =
Stig Venaas via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[IAB] Rtgdir last =
call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
Date: =
25. February 2022 at 03:00:44 =
CET
To: =
<rtg-dir@ietf.org>
Cc: =
last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
Reply-To: =
Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>

Reviewer: Stig Venaas
Review result: Has =
Nits

I have reviewed the document and it is =
in good shape.

The document has a few nits =
found by the idnits tool. The string "RFC" should
not be =
included when specifing "obsoletes:" or "updates:". Also the abstract
mentions that the documents obsoletes or updates documents =
that are not listed
by the obsoletes/updates headers.

In 3.1.1.4. paragraph 4:
"participation for those unable to to attend in person."
Double "to".

I'm wondering =
whether any of the references should be normative, but it may not
make sense for this document.




=

--Apple-Mail=_BDDEC3BE-5296-441E-84BA-969000305EE0--


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Subject: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] I18ndir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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FYI

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Martin D=C3=BCrst via Datatracker 
> Subject: [IAB] I18ndir last call review of =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
> Date: 25. February 2022 at 13:21:58 CET
> To: 
> Cc: last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, =
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
> Reply-To: Martin D=C3=BCrst 
>=20
> Reviewer: Martin D=C3=BCrst
> Review result: Almost Ready
>=20
> [Preliminary comments on this review:
> I have contributed to the IAB's RFC Editor Future Development Program =
(sorry,
> that's the official title) and therefore to this document. I'm not =
sure why
> Pete Resnik picked me as the reviewer, but anyway, I agreed to do it =
because I
> hadn't done a full read-through of the document yet.
>=20
> The review was requested by Mirja K=C3=BChlewind with the following =
words:
> "We're aiming to maximize the reviews for all documents associated =
with the
> change in the RFC Editor model. This document is the main deliverable =
from the
> RFC future editor model program and describes the new RFC editor =
model. The
> more eyes we get on this, the better!"]
>=20
> This review was requested from the I18N Directorate. So here first my =
comments
> re. internationalization, as far as there are some:
>=20
> Progress on internationalization of RFCs has been made in the past =
(RFC 7997).
> Some more progress in that direction seems highly desirable. In my =
opinion, the
> new process proposed in the current document shouldn't make it more =
difficult
> to make such progress, but on the other hand probably also won't make =
it much
> easier. Process changes and internationalization are mostly =
independent of each
> other. [There's also a small personal issue in the Acknowledgments =
section,
> which mentions "Martin Duerst (note: replace "ue" with U+00FC before
> publication)". I'm confident that Peter Saint-Andre and the RPC can =
figure how
> to actually change this to "Martin D=C3=BCrst".]
>=20
> What follows are general comments, unrelated to internationalization. =
I decided
> to include everything that caught my eyes, so it ended up to be quite =
a lot.
>=20
> Abstract: It may be worth mentioning the RSCE and the Editorial Stream =
here,
> because they are also important and new.
>=20
> 1. Introduction: "The RFC Editor function
>   is responsible for the packaging and distribution of all RFCs;"
> "packaging" sounds a bit strange; it might be better to say something =
like "The
> RFC Editor function
>   is responsible for the editing and distribution of all RFCs;"
>=20
> 2. Overview
>=20
> It would be great if the first two paragraphs could be exchanged so =
that the
> actual new model comes first. But this may need too much editing.
>=20
> I think I might have asked that question somewhere already, but is it =
clear
> where April Fool RFCs go? The most recently published April fool =
RFC=E3=80=80(RFC 8962)
> says: "This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any =
other RFC
> stream.  The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at its =
discretion
> and makes no statement about its value for implementation or =
deployment."
> Looking around a bit, this seems to be part of the template of the =
Independent
> Stream. Will it be in the RPC's discrecion to publish such RFCs in the =
future?
> Essentially, the "RFC Editor" is now mostly just the RPC, and in this =
case, the
> text looks a bit strange, not only for April fool RFCs.
>=20
> "In short:": What follows isn't really any much shorter than what =
preceded it,
> so the "in short" seems a bit misplaced.
>=20
> "*  If approved, such proposals are published as RFCs in the Editorial
>      Stream and thus define the policies to be followed by the RSWG,
>      RSAB, RSCE, and RPC."
> Shouldn't the IETF LLC also be mentioned here? My understanding is =
that the LLC
> can say that something won't work because there's no money for it, but =
that
> once it has accepted that a policy is implementable with reasonable =
means, it
> also has to follow this policy.
>=20
> 3. Policy Definition
>=20
> The first paragraph is quite long and convoluted. Something like
> "Policies governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined via a =
three-step open
> process: First ..."
>=20
> 3.1.1.4 Mode of Operation: The paragraph starting "When the RSWG is =
formed"
> should be moved one paragraph down to just before the paragraph =
starting "The
> RSWG may decide by rough consensus" (or probably better the later =
should be
> moved up) to make people help understand what the "when ... is formed" =
part is
> all about.
>=20
> "for those unable to to attend" -> "for those unable to attend"
>=20
> " The RSWG may decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling
>   (e.g., GitHub as specified in [RFC8874]), forms of communication, =
and
>   working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are consistent
>   with [RFC2418]."
> Should this read "as long as they are consistent with [RFC 2418] and =
this
> document?"
>=20
> 3.1.2.2.  Members
>=20
> "As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
>      or other person appointed by the IESG" ->
> "As the stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
>      or another person appointed by the IESG"
> (And same for the next three bullets; it feels unnatural to have the =
"an" apply
> over an "or", and it feels even less natural to have to imagine an =
"an" for the
> later two bullets where the preceding options take the definitive =
article.)
>=20
> 3.1.2.4.  Vacancies
> This is the part that I'm really still not sure about. First, there's =
a problem
> with what the text means. Imagine a first 3-month period, during which =
a second
> 3-month period starts. So far, the text is clear. But let's say then =
there's a
> third 3-month period, which overlaps with the second one. Does that =
extend the
> delay again? Or is there only one delay, because the text mentions =
only one
> delay? This should be clarified. On a higher level, I think the =
probability of
> these things happening are very low, but in the whole new process, =
this is one
> of the weakest points.
>=20
> 3.1.2.6.  Mode of Operation
> "although topics that require confidentiality (e.g., personnel
> matters) may be elided from such archives or discussed in private."
> The "elided" part is wishful thinking. If something is published once, =
it's
> out. "eliding" doesn't really help. So I wouldn't mention this.
>=20
> 3.2.  Process: This section may benefit from a bit of introductory =
text.
>=20
> 3.2.2.  Workflow, point 2:
> "If by following working group procedures for rough consensus the
> chairs determine that there is sufficient interest in the
> proposal, the RSWG may adopt the proposal as a draft proposal of
> the RSWG...": The "may" here 'may' be correct logically, but because =
it turns
> up so late in the sentence, it's difficult to read this other than =
"even if the
> chairs determine that there is sufficient interest, it's still just a =
'may'". I
> think this would be wrong. Reordering the sentence to have the 'if' =
part after
> the 'may' part should solve this.
>=20
> point 3:
> "Members of the RSAB are expected to participate as
> individuals in all discussions relating to RSWG proposals so
> that they are fully aware of proposals early in the policy
> definition process, and so that any issues or concerns that they
> have will be raised during the development of the proposal, not
> left until the RSAB review period."
> This sentence is simply too long, in particular because after the last =
comma,
> it would make sense replace "not" by "and will not be". So please =
split this
> sentence into smaller ones.
>=20
> point 4: "call for comment": from a quick search, it seems that "call =
for
> comments" is much more widely used, and I suggest to follow that =
throughout
> this document. I feel it's also more encouraging, asking for as many =
as there
> might be rather than pretending it might be only one or, if there is =
more, just
> treating it as an amorphous mass. Also, at least according to =
Wikipedia, RFC
> itself stands for "Request for Comments", not for "Request for =
Comment". [this
> applies thoughout the document, to quite a few instances]
>=20
> point 7:
> "If the scope of the revisions made in the previous step is large":
> It might be better to change "large" to "substantial", because that =
might
> better express that it's not only about the volume of changes, but =
also about
> their impact (at least I hope so).
>=20
> point 9:
> "the RSAB will then poll among its members regarding the proposal":
> Does this need to be so indirect? Why not just something like "poll =
its members
> for positions on the proposal"?
>=20
> point 15:
> "unless the IETF LLC objects pending resolution of resource or =
contract
> issues": "objects pending" is a bit obscure. "unless they are delayed =
while the
> IETF LLC resolves pending resource or contract issues". This would =
make it
> clearer that the IETF LLC cannot object to the policies themselves at =
this
> point.
>=20
> 3.2.3.  Community Calls for Comment
> "A URL to the Internet-Draft that defines the proposal" ->
> "A URL pointing to the Internet-Draft that defines the proposal"
>=20
> "Any commentary or questions for the community that the RSAB deems
> necessary (using their usual decision-making procedures)"
> "Any commentary" -> "Any explanations" (commentary sounds just a bit =
too
> academic)
>=20
> 3.2.6.  RFC Boilerplates
> "Each stream to which the boilerplate applies, which approves that the
> boilerplate meets its needs": This can be read as the boilerplate =
approving the
> boilerplate. Not sure how to fix this, but if somebody has a good =
idea, please
> apply it.
>=20
> 4.  Policy Implementation
>=20
> 4.1.  Roles and Processes
> "by legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been =
superseded
> by Editorial Stream RFCs": "legacy" -> "existing" (Legacy can mean =
leftover,
> outdated, old, but my understanding is that these RFCs are perfectly =
fine, no
> rush and no need to update them. Caution: the word 'legacy' turns up =
again
> later and should be fixed there, too.)
>=20
> 4.3.  RPC Responsibilities
> point 17: "depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both individually =
and in
> collections": As far as I understand, maintaining the RFC Editor =
website will
> also be the responsibility of the RPC, but this isn't listed in these =
points.
> This should be added. The word "depositing" then makes even less sense =
than it
> does currently, I'd replace it with "publishing".
>=20
> point 22: "Providing storage and preservation of records.": I =
(mis)read this as
> "Providing storage, and preservation of records". Maybe "Providing for =
the
> storage and preservation of records" would avoid such misreading.
>=20
> 4.4.  Resolution of Disagreements between Authors and the RPC
> "If there is a conflict with a policy for a particular stream, the
> RPC should consult with the relevant stream approving body and
> other representatives of the relevant streams to help achieve a
> resolution, if needed also conferring with a per-stream body such
> as the IESG or IRSG."
> This looks like a mess. We have
> - the relevant stream approving body
> - other representatives of the relevant streams
> - a per-stream body
> To me, these seem to be one and the same thing three times. If they =
are
> supposed to be the same, then we shouldn't need to mention them three =
times. If
> the intent was that these should be different, then the text has to be =
written
> so that the difference is much clearer.
>=20
> 5.4.  Conflict of Interest
> Unclear whether the following is one or two paragraphs:
>>>>>=20
>   The RPC service provider may contract services from the RSCE service
>   provider, and vice versa including for services provided to the IETF
>   LLC.  All contracts between the two must be disclosed to the IETF
>   LLC.
>   Where those services are related to services provided to the IETF
>   LLC, IETF LLC policies shall apply, including publication of =
relevant
>   parts of the contract.
>>>>>=20
> Also unclear how that's being generate. Also, there are other, similar
> instances.
>=20
> 6.  Editorial Stream
>   All documents produced by the RSWG and approved by the RSAB shall be
>   published as RFCs in the Editorial Stream with a status of
>   Informational.
> I think there should be an additional sentence saying that despite the =
name of
> the status, these documents nevertheless define policy. (in the long =
term, a
> better name for the status may be desirable, such as "RFC Policy" or =
something
> similar)
>=20
> 8.2.  RFC Series Editor
>   Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, the
>   responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a person or role
>   (contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are now split or
>   shared among the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or in
>   combination).
> In this list, the RSCE should also be mentioned, because the RFC =
Series Editor
> also had consulting/advisory roles, and these are now held by the =
RSCE.
>=20
> 9.  Updates to This Document
> I think this section should be before section 8, because it's material =
for the
> future, whereas Section 8 is just documentary about the past.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_7DE7E4EA-8522-4E13-A104-11535A2AE432
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

FYI

Begin forwarded message:

From: =
Martin D=C3=BCrst via =
Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[IAB] I18ndir =
last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
Date: =
25. February 2022 at 13:21:58 =
CET
To: =
<i18ndir@ietf.org>
Cc: =
last-call@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.all@ietf.org
Reply-To: =
Martin D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

Reviewer: Martin D=C3=BCrst
Review result: Almost Ready

[Preliminary comments on this review:
I have =
contributed to the IAB's RFC Editor Future Development Program =
(sorry,
that's the official title) and therefore to this =
document. I'm not sure why
Pete Resnik picked me as the =
reviewer, but anyway, I agreed to do it because I
hadn't =
done a full read-through of the document yet.

The review was requested by Mirja K=C3=BChlewind with the =
following words:
"We're aiming to maximize the reviews for =
all documents associated with the
change in the RFC Editor =
model. This document is the main deliverable from the
RFC =
future editor model program and describes the new RFC editor model. =
The
more eyes we get on this, the better!"]

This review was requested from the I18N =
Directorate. So here first my comments
re. =
internationalization, as far as there are some:

Progress on internationalization of RFCs has been made in the =
past (RFC 7997).
Some more progress in that direction =
seems highly desirable. In my opinion, the
new process =
proposed in the current document shouldn't make it more difficult
to make such progress, but on the other hand probably also =
won't make it much
easier. Process changes and =
internationalization are mostly independent of each
other. =
[There's also a small personal issue in the Acknowledgments section,
which mentions "Martin Duerst (note: replace "ue" with U+00FC =
before
publication)". I'm confident that Peter Saint-Andre =
and the RPC can figure how
to actually change this to =
"Martin D=C3=BCrst".]

What follows are =
general comments, unrelated to internationalization. I decided
to include everything that caught my eyes, so it ended up to =
be quite a lot.

Abstract: It may be worth =
mentioning the RSCE and the Editorial Stream here,
because =
they are also important and new.

1. =
Introduction: "The RFC Editor function
   is =
responsible for the packaging and distribution of all RFCs;"
"packaging" sounds a bit strange; it might be better to say =
something like "The
RFC Editor function
 =
  is responsible for the editing and distribution of all =
RFCs;"

2. Overview

It would be great if the first two paragraphs could be =
exchanged so that the
actual new model comes first. But =
this may need too much editing.

I think I =
might have asked that question somewhere already, but is it clear
where April Fool RFCs go? The most recently published April =
fool RFC=E3=80=80(RFC 8962)
says: "This is a contribution =
to the RFC Series, independently of any other RFC
stream. =
 The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at its =
discretion
and makes no statement about its value for =
implementation or deployment."
Looking around a bit, this =
seems to be part of the template of the Independent
Stream. =
Will it be in the RPC's discrecion to publish such RFCs in the =
future?
Essentially, the "RFC Editor" is now mostly just =
the RPC, and in this case, the
text looks a bit strange, =
not only for April fool RFCs.

"In short:": =
What follows isn't really any much shorter than what preceded it,
so the "in short" seems a bit misplaced.

"*  If approved, such proposals are published as RFCs in =
the Editorial
      Stream and =
thus define the policies to be followed by the RSWG,
 =
     RSAB, RSCE, and RPC."
Shouldn't the IETF LLC also be mentioned here? My =
understanding is that the LLC
can say that something won't =
work because there's no money for it, but that
once it has =
accepted that a policy is implementable with reasonable means, it
also has to follow this policy.

3.=
 Policy Definition

The first paragraph is =
quite long and convoluted. Something like
"Policies =
governing the RFC Series as a whole are defined via a three-step open
process: First ..."

3.1.1.4 Mode =
of Operation: The paragraph starting "When the RSWG is formed"
should be moved one paragraph down to just before the =
paragraph starting "The
RSWG may decide by rough =
consensus" (or probably better the later should be
moved =
up) to make people help understand what the "when ... is formed" part =
is
all about.

"for those =
unable to to attend" -> "for those unable to attend"

" The RSWG may decide by rough consensus to use additional =
tooling
   (e.g., GitHub as specified in =
[RFC8874]), forms of communication, and
 =
  working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are =
consistent
   with [RFC2418]."
Should this read "as long as they are consistent with [RFC =
2418] and this
document?"

3.1.2.2.  Members

"As the =
stream representative for the IETF stream, an IESG member
 =
     or other person appointed by the IESG" =
->
"As the stream representative for the IETF stream, =
an IESG member
      or another =
person appointed by the IESG"
(And same for the next three =
bullets; it feels unnatural to have the "an" apply
over an =
"or", and it feels even less natural to have to imagine an "an" for =
the
later two bullets where the preceding options take the =
definitive article.)

3.1.2.4. =
 Vacancies
This is the part that I'm really still not =
sure about. First, there's a problem
with what the text =
means. Imagine a first 3-month period, during which a second
3-month period starts. So far, the text is clear. But let's =
say then there's a
third 3-month period, which overlaps =
with the second one. Does that extend the
delay again? Or =
is there only one delay, because the text mentions only one
delay? This should be clarified. On a higher level, I think =
the probability of
these things happening are very low, =
but in the whole new process, this is one
of the weakest =
points.

3.1.2.6.  Mode of Operation
"although topics that require confidentiality (e.g., =
personnel
matters) may be elided from such archives or =
discussed in private."
The "elided" part is wishful =
thinking. If something is published once, it's
out. =
"eliding" doesn't really help. So I wouldn't mention this.

3.2.  Process: This section may benefit =
from a bit of introductory text.

3.2.2. =
 Workflow, point 2:
"If by following working group =
procedures for rough consensus the
chairs determine that =
there is sufficient interest in the
proposal, the RSWG may =
adopt the proposal as a draft proposal of
the RSWG...": =
The "may" here 'may' be correct logically, but because it turns
up so late in the sentence, it's difficult to read this other =
than "even if the
chairs determine that there is =
sufficient interest, it's still just a 'may'". I
think =
this would be wrong. Reordering the sentence to have the 'if' part =
after
the 'may' part should solve this.

point 3:
"Members of the RSAB are expected to =
participate as
individuals in all discussions relating to =
RSWG proposals so
that they are fully aware of proposals =
early in the policy
definition process, and so that any =
issues or concerns that they
have will be raised during =
the development of the proposal, not
left until the RSAB =
review period."
This sentence is simply too long, in =
particular because after the last comma,
it would make =
sense replace "not" by "and will not be". So please split this
sentence into smaller ones.

point =
4: "call for comment": from a quick search, it seems that "call for
comments" is much more widely used, and I suggest to follow =
that throughout
this document. I feel it's also more =
encouraging, asking for as many as there
might be rather =
than pretending it might be only one or, if there is more, just
treating it as an amorphous mass. Also, at least according to =
Wikipedia, RFC
itself stands for "Request for Comments", =
not for "Request for Comment". [this
applies thoughout the =
document, to quite a few instances]

point =
7:
"If the scope of the revisions made in the previous =
step is large":
It might be better to change "large" to =
"substantial", because that might
better express that it's =
not only about the volume of changes, but also about
their =
impact (at least I hope so).

point 9:
"the RSAB will then poll among its members regarding the =
proposal":
Does this need to be so indirect? Why not just =
something like "poll its members
for positions on the =
proposal"?

point 15:
"unless =
the IETF LLC objects pending resolution of resource or contract
issues": "objects pending" is a bit obscure. "unless they are =
delayed while the
IETF LLC resolves pending resource or =
contract issues". This would make it
clearer that the IETF =
LLC cannot object to the policies themselves at this
point.

3.2.3.  Community =
Calls for Comment
"A URL to the Internet-Draft that =
defines the proposal" ->
"A URL pointing to the =
Internet-Draft that defines the proposal"

"Any commentary or questions for the community that the RSAB =
deems
necessary (using their usual decision-making =
procedures)"
"Any commentary" -> "Any explanations" =
(commentary sounds just a bit too
academic)

3.2.6.  RFC Boilerplates
"Each stream to which the boilerplate applies, which approves =
that the
boilerplate meets its needs": This can be read as =
the boilerplate approving the
boilerplate. Not sure how to =
fix this, but if somebody has a good idea, please
apply =
it.

4.  Policy Implementation

4.1.  Roles and Processes
"by=
 legacy RFCs which apply to the RPC and which have not yet been =
superseded
by Editorial Stream RFCs": "legacy" -> =
"existing" (Legacy can mean leftover,
outdated, old, but =
my understanding is that these RFCs are perfectly fine, no
rush and no need to update them. Caution: the word 'legacy' =
turns up again
later and should be fixed there, too.)

4.3.  RPC Responsibilities
point 17: "depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both =
individually and in
collections": As far as I understand, =
maintaining the RFC Editor website will
also be the =
responsibility of the RPC, but this isn't listed in these points.
This should be added. The word "depositing" then makes even =
less sense than it
does currently, I'd replace it with =
"publishing".

point 22: "Providing storage =
and preservation of records.": I (mis)read this as
"Providing storage, and preservation of records". Maybe =
"Providing for the
storage and preservation of records" =
would avoid such misreading.

4.4. =
 Resolution of Disagreements between Authors and the RPC
"If there is a conflict with a policy for a particular =
stream, the
RPC should consult with the relevant stream =
approving body and
other representatives of the relevant =
streams to help achieve a
resolution, if needed also =
conferring with a per-stream body such
as the IESG or =
IRSG."
This looks like a mess. We have
- the =
relevant stream approving body
- other representatives of =
the relevant streams
- a per-stream body
To =
me, these seem to be one and the same thing three times. If they are
supposed to be the same, then we shouldn't need to mention =
them three times. If
the intent was that these should be =
different, then the text has to be written
so that the =
difference is much clearer.

5.4. =
 Conflict of Interest
Unclear whether the following =
is one or two paragraphs:

 =
  The RPC service provider may contract services from the RSCE =
service
   provider, and vice versa including =
for services provided to the IETF
   LLC. =
 All contracts between the two must be disclosed to the IETF
   LLC.
   Where those =
services are related to services provided to the IETF
 =
  LLC, IETF LLC policies shall apply, including publication of =
relevant
   parts of the contract.

Also =
unclear how that's being generate. Also, there are other, similar
instances.

6.  Editorial =
Stream
   All documents produced by the RSWG and =
approved by the RSAB shall be
   published as =
RFCs in the Editorial Stream with a status of
 =
  Informational.
I think there should be an =
additional sentence saying that despite the name of
the =
status, these documents nevertheless define policy. (in the long term, =
a
better name for the status may be desirable, such as =
"RFC Policy" or something
similar)

8.2.  RFC Series Editor
 =
  Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, =
the
   responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor =
(RSE) as a person or role
   (contrasted with =
the overall "RFC Editor function") are now split or
 =
  shared among the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or =
in
   combination).
In this list, =
the RSCE should also be mentioned, because the RFC Series Editor
also had consulting/advisory roles, and these are now held by =
the RSCE.

9.  Updates to This =
Document
I think this section should be before section 8, =
because it's material for the
future, whereas Section 8 is =
just documentary about the past.





=

--Apple-Mail=_7DE7E4EA-8522-4E13-A104-11535A2AE432--


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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] I18ndir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:06:36 -0000

Hello Eliot,

On 2022-02-28 15:30, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Thanks for your review.  On the whole, most of your comments are 
> editorial, and Peter should review.  There are a handful that are not, 
> and I will comment on them here:

Many thanks for your comments.

> On 25.02.22 13:35, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>
>>> I think I might have asked that question somewhere already, but is it 
>>> clear
>>> where April Fool RFCs go?
> 
> April Fools RFCs are sent to and considered by the ISE in consultation 
> with the RPC.

Ok, so this should be in good hands :-).

>>> "In short:": What follows isn't really any much shorter than what 
>>> preceded it,
>>> so the "in short" seems a bit misplaced.
>>>
>>> "*  If approved, such proposals are published as RFCs in the Editorial
>>>      Stream and thus define the policies to be followed by the RSWG,
>>>      RSAB, RSCE, and RPC."
>>> Shouldn't the IETF LLC also be mentioned here? My understanding is 
>>> that the LLC
>>> can say that something won't work because there's no money for it, 
>>> but that
>>> once it has accepted that a policy is implementable with reasonable 
>>> means, it
>>> also has to follow this policy.
>>>
> The LLC role is described in detail below.  I don't think mention is 
> necessary here.

Well, things will probably work out either way. But in my view, it would 
be better if it were clear here that the LLC has to follow accepted 
policies, too.


>>> " The RSWG may decide by rough consensus to use additional tooling
>>>   (e.g., GitHub as specified in [RFC8874]), forms of communication, and
>>>   working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as they are consistent
>>>   with [RFC2418]."
>>> Should this read "as long as they are consistent with [RFC 2418] and 
>>> this
>>> document?"
> 
> Do we say anything else in that document?

By "this document", I mean draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the RFC 
that it will (hopefully soon) become. Which document do you mean by 
"that document"?


>>> 3.1.2.4.  Vacancies
>>> This is the part that I'm really still not sure about. First, there's 
>>> a problem
>>> with what the text means. Imagine a first 3-month period, during 
>>> which a second
>>> 3-month period starts. So far, the text is clear. But let's say then 
>>> there's a
>>> third 3-month period, which overlaps with the second one. Does that 
>>> extend the
>>> delay again? Or is there only one delay, because the text mentions 
>>> only one
>>> delay? This should be clarified. On a higher level, I think the 
>>> probability of
>>> these things happening are very low, but in the whole new process, 
>>> this is one
>>> of the weakest points.
> 
> As you are aware, this was painfully negotiated text, and as you point 
> out, this is a corner case.

I'm definitely aware of all the background, but in my role as a 
reviewer, I wanted to make sure others are, too.


>>> 4.3.  RPC Responsibilities
>>> point 17: "depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both individually 
>>> and in
>>> collections": As far as I understand, maintaining the RFC Editor 
>>> website will
>>> also be the responsibility of the RPC, but this isn't listed in these 
>>> points.
>>> This should be added. The word "depositing" then makes even less 
>>> sense than it
>>> does currently, I'd replace it with "publishing".
> Adding the website responsibility seems reasonable.  The word 
> "depositing" matters in as much as other repositories are involved, such 
> as the U.S. Library of Congress or the like.

Yes, but that's covered by the *second* bullet of point 17, reading
*  depositing copies with external archives
There, as you say, "depositing" is a very good choice.

My comment was that for the *first* bullet of point 17, "depositing" 
doesn't make much sense.


>>> 8.2.  RFC Series Editor
>>>   Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section, the
>>>   responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a person or role
>>>   (contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are now split or
>>>   shared among the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or in
>>>   combination).
>>> In this list, the RSCE should also be mentioned, because the RFC 
>>> Series Editor
>>> also had consulting/advisory roles, and these are now held by the RSCE.
> 
> I think that's fair.  Others?
> 
> Eliot
> 

Regards,   Martin.


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Hi Martin,

    
Thanks. Just to close the loop:

    

    
On 28.02.22 09:06, Martin J. D=C3=BCrs=
t
      wrote:

    

    
"=
In
      short:": What follows isn't really any much shorter than what
      preceded it,
      

      

        

          
so the "in short" seems a bit
            misplaced.
            

            

            "* =C2=A0If approved, such proposals are published as RFCs in=
 the
            Editorial
            

            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Stream and thus define the poli=
cies to be followed by
            the RSWG,
            

            =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0RSAB, RSCE, and RPC."
            

            Shouldn't the IETF LLC also be mentioned here? My
            understanding is that the LLC
            

            can say that something won't work because there's no money
            for it, but that
            

            once it has accepted that a policy is implementable with
            reasonable means, it
            

            also has to follow this policy.
            

            

          

        

        The LLC role is described in detail below.=C2=A0 I don't think
        mention is necessary here.
        

      

      

      Well, things will probably work out either way. But in my view, it
      would be better if it were clear here that the LLC has to follow
      accepted policies, too.
      

    

    
We are very careful in the draft not to be prescriptive
      to the LLC as a whole.=C2=A0 The board in particular cannot be boun=
d to
      this document, though they can be guided.

    


    

    

      

      

      

        

          
" The RSWG may decide by rough
            consensus to use additional tooling
            

            =C2=A0=C2=A0(e.g., GitHub as specified in [RFC8874]), forms o=
f
            communication, and
            

            =C2=A0=C2=A0working methods (e.g., design teams) as long as t=
hey are
            consistent
            

            =C2=A0=C2=A0with [RFC2418]."
            

            Should this read "as long as they are consistent with [RFC
            2418] and this
            

            document?"
            

          

        

        

        Do we say anything else in that document?
        

      

      

      By "this document", I mean draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model and the
      RFC that it will (hopefully soon) become. Which=C2=A0document do yo=
u
      mean by "that document"?
      

    

    
draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model.=C2=A0 Yes.

    

    

      

      

      

        

          
3.1.2.4. =C2=A0Vacancies
            

            This is the part that I'm really still not sure about.
            First, there's a problem
            

            with what the text means. Imagine a first 3-month period,
            during which a second
            

            3-month period starts. So far, the text is clear. But let's
            say then there's a
            

            third 3-month period, which overlaps with the second one.
            Does that extend the
            

            delay again? Or is there only one delay, because the text
            mentions only one
            

            delay? This should be clarified. On a higher level, I think
            the probability of
            

            these things happening are very low, but in the whole new
            process, this is one
            

            of the weakest points.
            

          

        

        

        As you are aware, this was painfully negotiated text, and as you
        point out, this is a corner case.
        

      

      

      I'm definitely aware of all the background, but in my role as a
      reviewer, I wanted to make sure others are, too.
      

    

    


    

    
Ok.

    

    

      

      

      

        

          
4.3. =C2=A0RPC Responsibilities
            

            point 17: "depositing copies on the RFC Editor site both
            individually and in
            

            collections": As far as I understand, maintaining the RFC
            Editor website will
            

            also be the responsibility of the RPC, but this isn't listed
            in these points.
            

            This should be added. The word "depositing" then makes even
            less sense than it
            

            does currently, I'd replace it with "publishing".
            

          

        

        Adding the website responsibility seems reasonable.=C2=A0 The wor=
d
        "depositing" matters in as much as other repositories are
        involved, such as the U.S. Library of Congress or the like.
        

      

      

      Yes, but that's covered by the *second* bullet of point 17,
      reading
      

      *=C2=A0 depositing copies with external archives
      

      There, as you say, "depositing" is a very good choice.
      

      

      My comment was that for the *first* bullet of point 17,
      "depositing" doesn't make much sense.
      

    

    
Ah ok.=C2=A0 Then I leave this to Peter as well, editorially.

    
Regards,

    
Eliot

    

  


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From: Alexander Vainshtein 
To: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , Lars Eggert 
CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-rsalz-2028bis.all@ietf.org" , "rfced-future@iab.org" 
Thread-Topic: RTG-DIR Last Call review of draft-rsalz-2028bis-05
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:00:31 +0000
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Subject: [Rfced-future] RTG-DIR Last Call review of draft-rsalz-2028bis-05
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To: Eliot Lear , Mirja Kuehlewind , rfced-future@iab.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= 
References: <164579171829.24424.11911193648846995596@ietfa.amsl.com>  <5631b70e-51c4-fb85-a521-9740d8874c31@lear.ch>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 08:58:15 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] Fwd: [IAB] I18ndir last call review of draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-11
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Responding to Eliot's direct question:

On 28-Feb-22 19:30, Eliot Lear wrote:

=2E..

>>> 8.2. =C2=A0RFC Series Editor
>>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0Implied by the changes outlined in the previous section,=20
the
>>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0responsibilities of the RFC Series Editor (RSE) as a per=
son or role
>>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0(contrasted with the overall "RFC Editor function") are =
now split or
>>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0shared among the RSWG, RSAB, RPC, and IETF LLC (alone or=20
in
>>>  =C2=A0=C2=A0combination).
>>> In this list, the RSCE should also be mentioned, because the RFC
>>> Series Editor
>>> also had consulting/advisory roles, and these are now held by the RSC=
E.
>=20
> I think that's fair.=C2=A0 Others?

Yes, I think that's exactly right and it's a factual correction, not
a change of intent.

    Brian


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To: Alexander Vainshtein , "rtg-ads@ietf.org" , Lars Eggert 
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Hi Sasha,

    

    
On 28.02.22 16:00, Alexander Vainshtei=
n
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
      
      

        
Hello,

        

          I
            have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for
            this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all
            routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF
            last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request.
            The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
            Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing
            Directorate, please see=C2=A0=E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/r=
tg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

        

          Although
            these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs,
            it would be helpful if you could consider them along with
            any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and
            strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the
            draft.

        

          Document:
            draft-rsalz-2028bis-05
            

            Reviewer: Alexander (|=E2=80=9DSasha=E2=80=9D) Vainshtein
=

            Review Date: 28-Feb-22

            IETF LC End Date: 07-Mar-22

            Intended Status: Nest Current Practice

        
Summary:
            

        
I
            have some minor concerns about this document that I think
            should be resolved before publication.

        
Comments:
=

        
The draft describes entities involved in
          the IETF standards process. It is easy to read.

        
To the best of my understanding its purpos=
e
          is alignment with the current structure of the Internet
          Society and its affiliated organizations (IETF, IANA, RFC
          Production center (nee RFC Editor) etc.=C2=A0 The previous docu=
ment
          describing these entities has been published as RFC 2028 in
          1996.

        
The author of the draft and I have
          exchanged a few emails regarding my concerns. We did not reach
          the agreement, but in any case I would like to than the author
          for responsiveness and cooperation.

        
=C2=A0

        
Major Issues: None found=


        
=C2=A0

        
Minor Issues: 

        
=C2=A0

        
These days it is quite common in the IETF
          process to differentiate between document Authors and
          Contributors, especially when=C2=A0 many persons have been acti=
vely
          involved with development of the technical aspects of the
          document.=C2=A0 The number of Authors is usually limited to no =
more
          than 5, and their names appear on the title page of the
          document, while Contributors (if any) are only listed in a
          dedicated section within the document.

        
At the same time the Contributors have a
          well-defined role in the process, e.g. they must report about
          any non-disclosed IPR related to the document (or lack of any
          such IPR) both during adoption of the document as a WG
          document and also during the WG Last Call. 

        
=C2=A0

        
The draft mentioned Editors and Authors of=

          the document (and explains that these terms are
          interchangeable), but it does not mention Contributors at all.
          

        
=C2=A0

        
I have raised this issue with the author o=
f
          the draft, and IMHO we have =E2=80=9Cagreed to disagree=E2=80=9D=
 on this
          point.

      

    

    


    

    
I think you are talking about Section 3.2.1, which in part reads:<=
/p>
    

      

        
   This process is intended to be one of c=
ontinuous consultation.  RSAB
   members should consult with their constituent stakeholders (e.g.,
   authors, editors, tool developers, and consumers of RFCs) on an
   ongoing basis, so that when the time comes to consider the approval
   of a proposal, there should be no surprises.

      

    

    
I don't think you should worry about whether contributors are
      listed at this time.=C2=A0 The IESG in particular tends to cast a w=
ide
      net on such consultations.=C2=A0 But if Lars thinks that won't be t=
he
      case here, we should consider adding the word =E2=80=9Ccontributors=
=E2=80=9D
      above, as I don't think it hurts anyone to do so.

    
Eliot

    

    

  


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