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Passwords for rgchairs-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- rgchairs@lists.ietf.org oxazwu https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/rgchairs/rgchairs-archive%40ietf.org From rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 28 23:10:28 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00779; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNNO1-000271-EY; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:25:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNMcG-0000TI-4E; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:35:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CMviS-0000TM-Ja for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:52:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19303 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliffie.verisignlabs.com ([65.201.175.9] helo=mail.verisignlabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMvwL-0000DT-CS for rgchairs@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:06:49 -0400 Received: from [10.131.244.198] ([::ffff:172.25.170.10]) (AUTH: PLAIN leslie, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:51:47 -0400 id 00540157.41801873.00004E15 Message-ID: <41801872.9090909@thinkingcat.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:51:46 -0400 From: Leslie Daigle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rgchairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:35:47 -0400 Subject: [Rgchairs] IAB seeking input about IRTF X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy, As Vern has mentioned, he's planning to step down as IRTF Chair. Before embarking on finding Vern's successor, the IAB is taking this opportunity to review the overall structure and positioning of the IRTF. That is, we are interested in determining whether we should be making adjustments to the way the IRTF operates itself, and/or how it works with the IETF. Vern has done a lot of work over the last few years to help increase the visibility of the IRTF within the IETF (e.g., continued plenary presentations from the IRTF RGs, periodic RG reviews with the IAB, etc). We naturally have the question, "what are the next steps?", which we feel we should have a better grasp on before selecting a successor. So -- if you have some time before the next IETF meeting (Nov 7-12, 2004), and have some thoughts on the subject, please let me know, and I'll work up some discussion opportunities with one or more IAB members. If you don't have time before then, please feel free to write down your thoughts and send them to the IAB (iab@iab.org), and/or we can see about scheduling further discussions later. Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may care to share, Leslie. IAB Chair. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs From rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 29 04:41:04 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA08096; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNSY1-0000uT-9j; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:55:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNRwJ-00031x-7s; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:16:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNRm4-0003HQ-KI for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:06:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05580 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNS0I-0000A8-TH for rgchairs@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:20:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2CD2B83; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02639-06; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from james (james.public.iu-bremen.de [212.201.46.187]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA152B78; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CNRlV-0000hu-8K; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:41 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:41 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Leslie Daigle Subject: Re: [Rgchairs] IAB seeking input about IRTF Message-ID: <20041029080541.GD2249@james> References: <41801872.9090909@thinkingcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41801872.9090909@thinkingcat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: rgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 05:51:46PM -0400, Leslie Daigle wrote: > As Vern has mentioned, he's planning to step down as IRTF Chair. > Before embarking on finding Vern's successor, the IAB is taking this > opportunity to review the overall structure and positioning of the IRTF. > That is, we are interested in determining whether we should be making > adjustments to the way the IRTF operates itself, and/or how it works > with the IETF. Vern has done a lot of work over the last few years > to help increase the visibility of the IRTF within the IETF (e.g., > continued plenary presentations from the IRTF RGs, periodic > RG reviews with the IAB, etc). We naturally have the question, > "what are the next steps?", which we feel we should have a better > grasp on before selecting a successor. > > So -- if you have some time before the next IETF meeting (Nov 7-12, > 2004), and have some thoughts on the subject, please let me know, > and I'll work up some discussion opportunities with one or more > IAB members. If you don't have time before then, please feel > free to write down your thoughts and send them to the IAB > (iab@iab.org), and/or we can see about scheduling further discussions > later. Why not organize a meeting next to the upcoming IETF where IRTF chairs and IAB member can discuss things? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs From rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 29 05:14:50 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA10320; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNT4h-0001Xc-W4; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 05:29:36 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNSNm-0001Wb-5p; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:45:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNSA2-0001n5-U8 for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:31:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07436 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNSOH-0000iA-SX for rgchairs@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:45:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E45B2B81; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04269-05; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from james (james.public.iu-bremen.de [212.201.46.187]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FCB2B78; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CNS9W-0000ij-CR; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:30 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:30 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: iab@iab.org Message-ID: <20041029083030.GE2249@james> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: rgchairs@ietf.org Subject: [Rgchairs] thoughs about the IRTF X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Below are some my thoughts about the IRTF. The order is arbitrary, so do not conclude that I value say a) higher than b). Perhaps we should just collect such thoughts and then schedule a face to face discussion at the upcoming IETF. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="irtf-thoughts.txt" Thoughts on the IRTF (posted by ) a) The IRTF needs to improve communication and awareness between research groups Motivation: I assume that RGs operate according to very different models. It is important to exchange information how RGs work and what the experience with the various models is so that we can learn and improve things. Second, I believe it would help if there would be more awareness of what is going on in the various groups. It was proposed to establish a kind of an IRSG review for IRTF RFCs, which I think would address this issue to some extend (noting that some RGs also produce non RFC publications). b) The IRTF needs to improve its visibility in the research world Motivation: By making the IRTF more visible in the research world, we can hopefully attract more qualified people to contribute to the IRTF. As a research branch, I believe the IRTF has to some extend follow the established procedures in the research areas to be successful. I have proposed in the past to organize IRTF specific events such as an IRTF workshop co-located with some major research event. (My proposal back then was to hold a workshop next to SIGCOMM in Karlsruhe - I do not remember which year that was). c) The Interface between IETF and IRTF needs consideration Motivation: I believe we need to better understand when and how work is moved between the IETF WGs and IRTF RGs. Having been involved in something which moved from a RG to a WG and back to a RG, I have my own set of experiences. These experiences might not generally apply to RGs. But I think it is necessary to look at some of the issues around this to probably better understand the issues and pitfalls. d) Measuring the success/impact of RGs Motivation: Since IRTF RGs are supposed to be long-term, we probably need to start a discussion how to measure the success of RGs. Since RGs operate according to very different models, there will not be a simple metric. But still, we need to develop a common understanding what the various impact factors are so that it becomes easier to determine when RGs become ineffective. The IAB reviews are probably a good start (but I have not gone through this so I am really speculating here). --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- From rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 29 10:43:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05916; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNYCe-0000TV-U3; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:58:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNXiJ-0003kn-9Y; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:26:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CNXa4-0006Fe-E4 for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:18:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03431 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliffie.verisignlabs.com ([65.201.175.9] helo=mail.verisignlabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CNXoL-0008GF-L9 for rgchairs@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:33:03 -0400 Received: from [10.131.244.198] ([::ffff:172.25.170.10]) (AUTH: PLAIN leslie, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:17:44 -0400 id 0054027F.41825108.0000314F Message-ID: <41825107.8070703@thinkingcat.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:17:43 -0400 From: Leslie Daigle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [Rgchairs] IAB seeking input about IRTF References: <41801872.9090909@thinkingcat.com> <20041029080541.GD2249@james> In-Reply-To: <20041029080541.GD2249@james> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy, Well, that's possible, if in fact a lot of the rgchairs are interested in the topic. (N.B.: there isn't any anticipation that changes would affect existing RGs, it's more about how and what sort of RGs should be chartered in future). Also, with respect to your "why not" question, note that the IAB is also asking other folks for input, as well. There are only so many hours in a given IETF week... Leslie. Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 05:51:46PM -0400, Leslie Daigle wrote: > > >>As Vern has mentioned, he's planning to step down as IRTF Chair. >>Before embarking on finding Vern's successor, the IAB is taking this >>opportunity to review the overall structure and positioning of the IRTF. >>That is, we are interested in determining whether we should be making >>adjustments to the way the IRTF operates itself, and/or how it works >>with the IETF. Vern has done a lot of work over the last few years >>to help increase the visibility of the IRTF within the IETF (e.g., >>continued plenary presentations from the IRTF RGs, periodic >>RG reviews with the IAB, etc). We naturally have the question, >>"what are the next steps?", which we feel we should have a better >>grasp on before selecting a successor. >> >>So -- if you have some time before the next IETF meeting (Nov 7-12, >>2004), and have some thoughts on the subject, please let me know, >>and I'll work up some discussion opportunities with one or more >>IAB members. If you don't have time before then, please feel >>free to write down your thoughts and send them to the IAB >>(iab@iab.org), and/or we can see about scheduling further discussions >>later. > > > Why not organize a meeting next to the upcoming IETF where IRTF > chairs and IAB member can discuss things? > > /js > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs From rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 31 00:41:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12657; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CO7lV-0000T5-Eq; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:56:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CO7Oq-0004XS-8Q; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:33:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CO7ID-0003tl-Kz for rgchairs@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12125 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tom.iecc.com ([208.31.42.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CO7Wq-0000H2-2M for rgchairs@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:41:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 19235 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2004 04:26:11 -0000 Received: (ofmipd 127.0.0.1); 31 Oct 2004 04:25:49 -0000 Date: 31 Oct 2004 00:26:09 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Vern Paxson" Subject: Re: [Rgchairs] thoughs about the IRTF In-Reply-To: <20041029083030.GE2249@james> References: <20041029083030.GE2249@james> Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: iab@iab.org, rgchairs@ietf.org X-BeenThere: rgchairs@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF research group chairs list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rgchairs-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c I agree with Juergen that the IRTF could use more visibility. A clearer path to publishing informaitional and experimental RFCs would both be useful on its own merits and for the visibility issue. I don't think the IRTF needs more organization. Research by its nature is messy. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Chair, IRTF ASRG _______________________________________________ Rgchairs mailing list Rgchairs@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rgchairs