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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "rift@ietf.org" <rift@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RIFT-01 questions and comments
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rift/KWbRmw4Fu1cUrdCILTeLnayDiu4>
Subject: [Rift] RIFT-01 questions and comments
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Hi Tony,

I have the following questions and comments:

   Unless Section 4.2.9 is used, each node is provisioned with the level
   at which it is operating and its PoD (or otherwise a default level
   and "undefined" PoD are assumed; meaning that leafs do not need to be
   configured at all if initial configuration values are all left at 0).
   Nodes in the spine are configured with "any" PoD which has the same
   value "undefined" PoD hence we will talk about "undefined/any" PoD.

Is it that w/o ZTP, the following apply:

- only the leaf nodes can be unconfigured - they will take default level 0 =
and PoD "undefined"
- spines and middle nodes must have level configured
- spines must have pod unconfigured
- nodes right below the spine must have pod configured; lower nodes/leaves =
can have PoD derived

On the contrary, w/ ZTP, leaves must be configured with level 0 (explicitly=
 or implicitly via leaf_only or l2l flag)?

   A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if
   (definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...

The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think it'=
s better to do so as in OSPF case:
        Neighboring routers
            Two routers that have interfaces to a common network.
            Neighbor relationships are maintained by, and usually
            dynamically discovered by, OSPF's Hello Protocol.

        Adjacency
            A relationship formed between selected neighboring routers
            for the purpose of exchanging routing information.  Not
            every pair of neighboring routers become adjacent.

The three-way handshake establishes neighborship; after that, level/pod is =
derived and then based on that, we determine if adjacency should be brought=
 up.

   A node configured with "undefined" PoD membership MUST, after
   building first northbound three way adjacencies to a node being in a
   defined PoD, advertise that PoD as part of its LIEs.  In case that
   adjacency is lost, from all available northbound three way
   adjacencies the node with the highest System ID and defined PoD is
   chosen.  That way the northmost defined PoD value (normally the top
   spines in a PoD) can diffuse southbound towards the leafs "forcing"
   the PoD value on any node with "undefined" PoD.

Don't understand the text in the last sentence above. The spines don't have=
 PoD configured (they connect to multiple PoDs), right? If we change "the t=
op spines" to "the top node right below a spine" then it makes sense.

   More precisely, a spine node represents two different databases to
   its neighbors depending whether it advertises TIEs to the north or to
   the south/sideways.

A spine node does not have north adjacencies. Do you mean "a middle node" i=
n the above paragraph?

   The N-TIEs hold all of the node's adjacencies, local prefixes and
   northbound policy-guided prefixes while the S-TIEs hold only all of
   the node's adjacencies and the default prefix with necessary
   disaggregated prefixes and southbound policy-guided prefixes. =20

Why don't S-TIEs contain local prefixes? Wouldn't that lead to better route=
s on its southern neighbors to those local prefixes?

Layer vs. level are used in mix. Should be consistent.

        Spine21 S-TIEs:
        Node S-TIE:
          NodeElement(layer=3D2, neighbors((Node111, layer 1, cost 1),
          (Node112, layer 1, cost 1), (Node121, layer 1, cost 1),
          (Node122, layer 1, cost 1)))

Link information (like in the case for Node 111) should be added to the abo=
ve.
Should the cost info be associated with links?

Node 121: Node S-TIEs do not have link info shown. Better be consistent.

What's different between NodeElement and NodeLinkElement?

   The mechanism used to distribute TIEs is the well-known (albeit
   modified in several respects to address fat tree requirements)
   flooding mechanism used by today's link-state protocols.  Albeit
   initially more demanding to implement it avoids many problems with
   diffused computation update style used by path vector.  As described
   before, TIEs themselves are transported over UDP with the ports
   indicates in the LIE exchanges and using the destination address (for
   unnumbered IPv4 interfaces same considerations apply as in equivalent
   OSPF case) on which the LIE adjacency has been formed.

Need to spell out the details for unnumbered IPv4 interface case instead of=
 referring to OSPF.

   Every N-TIE is flooded northbound, providing a node at a given level
   with the complete topology of the Clos or Fat Tree network underneath
   it, including all specific prefixes.  This means that a packet
   received from a node at the same or lower level whose destination is
   covered by one of those specific prefixes may be routed directly
   towards the node advertising that prefix rather than sending the
   packet to a node at a higher level.

"received from a node at the same or lower level" should be removed;
No matter where the packet is received from, the rest of the text applies.

4.2.5.1.  Northbound SPF  <--- clarify it's for traffic going north
   N-SPF uses northbound and east-west adjacencies in North Node TIEs   <--=
 "Node S-TIEs"?
   when progressing Dijkstra.  Observe that this is really just a one
   hop variety since South Node TIEs are not re-flooded southbound         =
  <--- "Node S-TIEs"?
   beyond a single level (or east-west) and with that the computation
   cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.
   ...
   For N-SPF we are using the South Node TIEs to find according   <--- "Nod=
e S-TIEs"?
   adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity.  Just as in case of IS-
   IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to
   confirm bidirectional connectivity.

4.2.5.2.  Southbound SPF

   S-SPF uses only the southbound adjacencies in the south node TIEs,  <-- =
"Node N-TIEs"?
   i.e. progresses towards nodes at lower levels.  Observe that E-W
   adjacencies are NEVER used in the computation.  This enforces the
   requirement that a packet traversing in a southbound direction must
   never change its direction.


   S-SPF uses northbound adjacencies in north node TIEs to verify  <-- "Nod=
e N-TIEs"?
   backlink connectivity.

   ...
   As further consideration, the moment A02 looses link N2 the situation
   evolves again.  A01 will have no more northbound reachability while
   still seeing A03 advertising northbound adjacencies in its south node   =
<--- "Node S-TIE"?
   tie.  With that it will stop advertising a default route due to
   Section 4.2.3.7.  Moreover, A02 may now inject its loopback address
   as south PGP.

"north/south node TIE" is ambiguous in that it could be interpreted as "nor=
th/south node's TIE" (TIE of the north/south node), hence the suggested cha=
nge to be stringent.

       Observe that policy-guided prefixes are NOT affected
       since their scope is controlled by configuration.

What does the "since ..." part mean? What's the point of that sentence? Is =
it that "PGP are not considered"?

   To summarize the above in simplest terms: if a node detects that its
   default route encompasses prefixes for which one of the other nodes
   in its level has no possible next-hops in the level below, it has to
   disaggregate it to prevent black-holing or suboptimal routing.

"its default route encompasses" is unnecessary? Black-holing or sub-optimal=
 forwarding is not caused by this node's default route. Rather, it is cause=
d by the default route of the other nodes that has no possible next-hops be=
low. Even if this nodes does not have a default route, the problem still ex=
ist and the solution is the same.

   1.  Create partial_neighbors =3D (empty), a set of neighbors with
       partial connectivity to the node X's layer from X's perspective.
       Each entry is a list of south neighbor of X and a list of nodes
       of X.layer that can't reach that neighbor.

How about the following?

   1.  Create partial_neighbors =3D (empty), a set of south neighbors with
       partial connectivity to the node X's layer from X's perspective.
       Each entry is a south neighbor of X and a list of nodes
       of X.layer that can't reach that neighbor.

For the following:

          for each S-TIE  <--- add "originated by Y"
              if (S-TIE.layer =3D=3D X.layer and
                  X shares at least one S-neighbor with X)  <-- "Y shares a=
t least ..."
                add S-TIE.originator to nodes_same_layer  <-- "add Y to ...=
"
                end if
              end for

            for each next-hop-set NHS
              isolated_nodes =3D nodes_same_layer
              for each NH in NHS
                if NH in partial_neighbors
                  isolated_nodes =3D intersection(isolated_nodes,
                                                partial_neighbors[NH].nodes=
)

Why do we need to calculate nodes_same_layer and initialize isolated_nodes =
to it? The way partial_neighbors is calculated, partial_neighbors[NH].nodes=
 is already part of the nodes_same_layer? It seems that we could simply ini=
tialize isolated_nodes to partial_neighbors[first NH in NHS].nodes?

            copy disaggregated_prefixes to X's S-TIE
            if X's S-TIE is different
              schedule S-TIE for flooding

"replace disaggregated prefixes in X's Prefix S-TIE with disaggregated_pref=
ixes"?

   Each disaggregated prefix is sent with the accurate path_distance.
   This allows a node to send the same S-TIE to each south neighbor.
   The south neighbor which is connected to that prefix will thus have a
   shorter path.

How about rewording to the following?

  Each disaggregated prefix is sent with the accurate path_distance to
  all direct south neighbors, including the one connected to that
  prefix (directly or indirectly), which will be able to select the right p=
ath
  (not through the neighbor advertising the disaggregated prefix) based
  on the advertised accurate path_distance.

-----------------------------------------

What does the following bullet mean?

   6.  The fabric is still supporting maximum load balancing properties
       while not trying to send traffic northbound unless necessary.

The "while ..." clause is especially confusing. W/ or w/o disaggregation, w=
e don't send traffic northbound unless necessary, right?

----------------------------------------

4.2.9.  Optional Autoconfiguration

Is it true that:

- This section is only about level, not about PoD
- This section is only about middle nodes

I really don't get the following:

    First, we need to anchor the "top" of the cabling and that's what the
   SUPERSPINE_FLAG at node A is for.  Then things look smooth until we
   have to decide whether node Y is at the same level as I, J or at the
   same level as Y and consequently, X is south of it.

What does it mean by "whether node Y is ... at the same level as Y". Is the=
 following what you mean?

   Whether node Y is at the same level as I, J and consequently X is south =
of it,
   Or whether node Y is at the same level as F.

For the following:

   5.  A node that changed its defined level value MUST readvertise its
       own TIEs (since the new `PacketHeader` will contain a different
       level than before).  Sequence number of each TIE MUST be
       increased.

What if a "derived level" (vs. "defined level") changes?

What is the "level" in TIE PacketHeader for? What if it's only used in LIE?

   A node starting with LEVEL_VALUE being 0 (i.e. it assumes a leaf
   function or has a CONFIGURED_LEVEL of 0) MUST follow those additional
   procedures:

What's different between "it assumes a leaf function" and "has a CONFGURED_=
LEVEL of 0"? Perhaps just say "has a CONFIGURED_LEVEL of 0"?

-------------

   Certain use cases seem to necessitate distribution of essentialy KV
   information that is generated in the leafs in the northbound
   direction.  Such information is flooded in KV N-TIEs.  Since the
   originator of northbound KV is preserved during northbound flooding,=09
   overlapping keys could be used.  However, to omit further protocol
   complexity, only the value of the key in TIE tie-broken in same
   fashion as southbound KV TIEs is used.

The last sentence of the above paragraph seems to read better as the follow=
ing:

   ... only the value of the key is used in TIE tie-broken in same fashion
   as southbound KV TIEs.

4.3.7.  Leaf to Leaf Procedures
      ...
      never form southbound adjacencies.

Leaves never have southbound adjacencies (w/ or w/o leaf-to-leaf), right?


   ... Spine 22, having
   computed reachability to all prefixes in the network, advertises with
   the default route the ones that are reachable only via lower level
   neighbors that spine 21 does not show an adjacency to.

s/advertises with/advertises beside/

It's better to explicitly point out that this is the disaggregation case.

   The prefix 121 advertised by spine 22 does not have to be propagated
   further towards leafs since they do no benefit from this information.
   Hence the amount of flooding is restricted to spine 21 reissuing its
   S-TIEs and reflection of those by node 111 and node 112.

Do you mean "spine 22 reissuing its S-TIE" (not spine 21)?
Why would node 111/112 reflect the disaggregation routes?
There is text talking about disaggregation routes are not reflected.

5.3.  Partitioned Fabric

The section title says "partitioned fabric", but the fabric did not really =
partition, right?

   based on Section 4.3.12 it may advertise its loopback address as
   south PGP to remain reachable "from the south" for operational
   purposes.  This is necessary since A02 will NOT route towards A01
   using the E-W link (doing otherwise may form routing loops).

What about reachability from nodes in other PoDs, i.e., packets need to com=
e down via a spine?
How does A02 route to A01? Is it that the south PGP learnt via the E-W link=
 will be used?

Thanks!
Jeffrey


From nobody Tue May  1 11:36:39 2018
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 11:35:51 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Rift] RIFT-01 questions and comments
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inline, we can chew more details in the interim tommorow, I plan to have a
picture with ZTP & how it hangs together with LIEs (since it's integrated
basically on LIEs) ...

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> I have the following questions and comments:
>
>    Unless Section 4.2.9 is used, each node is provisioned with the level
>    at which it is operating and its PoD (or otherwise a default level
>    and "undefined" PoD are assumed; meaning that leafs do not need to be
>    configured at all if initial configuration values are all left at 0).
>    Nodes in the spine are configured with "any" PoD which has the same
>    value "undefined" PoD hence we will talk about "undefined/any" PoD.
>
> Is it that w/o ZTP, the following apply:
>
> - only the leaf nodes can be unconfigured - they will take default level 0
> and PoD "undefined"
> - spines and middle nodes must have level configured
> - spines must have pod unconfigured
> - nodes right below the spine must have pod configured; lower nodes/leaves
> can have PoD derived
>

correct, the PoD terminology is not fully gelled yet, "undefined" also
means "any", i.e. value 0 which is bit confusing but I have no better
terms.


>
> On the contrary, w/ ZTP, leaves must be configured with level 0
> (explicitly or implicitly via leaf_only or l2l flag)?
>

that is incorrect. w/ZTP the leafs _may_ be configured, if they are with
either 0/leaf_only or l2l they _will_ stick to be 0 & leaf, if not they
just end up @ lowest level whatever it is (and it can be even different
height per PoD), I will paste couple examples in for tommorow.


>
>    A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if
>    (definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...
>
> The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think
> it's better to do so as in OSPF case:
>         Neighboring routers
>             Two routers that have interfaces to a common network.
>             Neighbor relationships are maintained by, and usually
>             dynamically discovered by, OSPF's Hello Protocol.
>
>         Adjacency
>             A relationship formed between selected neighboring routers
>             for the purpose of exchanging routing information.  Not
>             every pair of neighboring routers become adjacent.
>

yes, conciously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the
same for RIFT. OSPF "adjacency" concept is quite difficult to implement and
really just an optimization for large number of parallel links.  Nothing
prevents a RIFT implementation to be "smart" in flooding about parallel
links but each link is really a separate adjacency.

That should be probably clarified a bit in draft for the OSPF heavy folks,
someone suggests a language ...


>
> The three-way handshake establishes neighborship; after that, level/pod is
> derived and then based on that, we determine if adjacency should be brought
> up.
>
>    A node configured with "undefined" PoD membership MUST, after
>    building first northbound three way adjacencies to a node being in a
>    defined PoD, advertise that PoD as part of its LIEs.  In case that
>    adjacency is lost, from all available northbound three way
>    adjacencies the node with the highest System ID and defined PoD is
>    chosen.  That way the northmost defined PoD value (normally the top
>    spines in a PoD) can diffuse southbound towards the leafs "forcing"
>    the PoD value on any node with "undefined" PoD.
>
> Don't understand the text in the last sentence above. The spines don't
> have PoD configured (they connect to multiple PoDs), right? If we change
> "the top spines" to "the top node right below a spine" then it makes sense.
>

would need pictures, basically PoD membership is "defined" in the top
spines of a PoD and "diffuses southbound".  The superspines (connecting
PoDs) are "undefined" or "any" so they will form adjacency to all PoD
values below but nothing diffuses.


>
>    More precisely, a spine node represents two different databases to
>    its neighbors depending whether it advertises TIEs to the north or to
>    the south/sideways.
>
> A spine node does not have north adjacencies. Do you mean "a middle node"
> in the above paragraph?
>

yes, definition needs improving, Spine should be "superspine" here

Spine:  The set of nodes that provide inter-PoD communication.  These
      nodes are also organized into levels (typically one, three, or
      five levels).  Spine nodes do not belong to any PoD and are
      assigned the PoD value 0 to indicate this.


and middle level is "spine" or "aggregation"

will come in -02


>    The N-TIEs hold all of the node's adjacencies, local prefixes and
>    northbound policy-guided prefixes while the S-TIEs hold only all of
>    the node's adjacencies and the default prefix with necessary
>    disaggregated prefixes and southbound policy-guided prefixes.
>
> Why don't S-TIEs contain local prefixes? Wouldn't that lead to better
> routes on its southern neighbors to those local prefixes?
>

yepp, correct observation. Important especially for loopbacks. In fact the
draft does imply that in other writedowns but this
paragraph does not. in -02


>
> Layer vs. level are used in mix. Should be consistent.
>
>         Spine21 S-TIEs:
>         Node S-TIE:
>           NodeElement(layer=2, neighbors((Node111, layer 1, cost 1),
>           (Node112, layer 1, cost 1), (Node121, layer 1, cost 1),
>           (Node122, layer 1, cost 1)))
>

yes, draft tried to be super-consistent with level vs. layer but something
always sneaks in ...


>
> Link information (like in the case for Node 111) should be added to the
> above.
> Should the cost info be associated with links?
>
> Node 121: Node S-TIEs do not have link info shown. Better be consistent.
>

suggest diffs. I masaged that too many times to bother again ;-)


>
> What's different between NodeElement and NodeLinkElement?
>

none, artefact from previous tinkering, corrected ... This is just a
conceptual example anyway while schema is normative


>
>    The mechanism used to distribute TIEs is the well-known (albeit
>    modified in several respects to address fat tree requirements)
>    flooding mechanism used by today's link-state protocols.  Albeit
>    initially more demanding to implement it avoids many problems with
>    diffused computation update style used by path vector.  As described
>    before, TIEs themselves are transported over UDP with the ports
>    indicates in the LIE exchanges and using the destination address (for
>    unnumbered IPv4 interfaces same considerations apply as in equivalent
>    OSPF case) on which the LIE adjacency has been formed.
>
> Need to spell out the details for unnumbered IPv4 interface case instead
> of referring to OSPF.
>

yes, appendices with LIE & flooding FSM. Going into details here would
crowd the
draft with well-known things (for the link-state folks).


>
>    Every N-TIE is flooded northbound, providing a node at a given level
>    with the complete topology of the Clos or Fat Tree network underneath
>    it, including all specific prefixes.  This means that a packet
>    received from a node at the same or lower level whose destination is
>    covered by one of those specific prefixes may be routed directly
>    towards the node advertising that prefix rather than sending the
>    packet to a node at a higher level.
>
> "received from a node at the same or lower level" should be removed;
> No matter where the packet is received from, the rest of the text applies.
>

I have to think whether this is completely true given different prefix
types and their preference. I think it is.


>
> 4.2.5.1.  Northbound SPF  <--- clarify it's for traffic going north
>    N-SPF uses northbound and east-west adjacencies in North Node TIEs
>  <-- "Node S-TIEs"?
>    when progressing Dijkstra.  Observe that this is really just a one
>    hop variety since South Node TIEs are not re-flooded southbound
>    <--- "Node S-TIEs"?
>

corrected Node S-TIEs

I'm apprehensive introducing the binding between SPFs and which direction
traffic is going, I don't think
it's necessary.



>    beyond a single level (or east-west) and with that the computation
>    cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.
>    ...
>    For N-SPF we are using the South Node TIEs to find according   <---
> "Node S-TIEs"?
>    adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity.  Just as in case of IS-
>    IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to
>    confirm bidirectional connectivity.
>

ok, I clarify, what you _really_ do is the following

"

N-SPF uses northbound and East-West adjacencies in the computing node's
node N-TIEs (since if the node is a leaf it may not have generated a node
S-TIE) when starting Dijkstra. Observe that N-SPF is really just a one hop
variety since Node S-TIEs are not re-flooded southbound beyond a single
level (or East-West) and with that the computation cannot progress beyond
adjacent nodes.

Once progressing, we are using the next level's node S-TIEs to find
according adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity. Just as in case of
IS-IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to confirm
bidirectional connectivi

"


>
> 4.2.5.2.  Southbound SPF
>
>    S-SPF uses only the southb

ound adjacencies in the south node TIEs,  <-- "Node N-TIEs"?
>

nope, node S-TIEs.  The SPF is counter-intuitive in this respect, you start
own node with the direction of the SPF, then you use counter-direction to
verify backlinks and then you take the next node's TIEs in the SPF
direction again ...


>    i.e. progresses towards nodes at lower levels.  Observe that E-W
>    adjacencies are NEVER used in the computation.  This enforces the
>    requirement that a packet traversing in a southbound direction must
>    never change its direction.
>
>
>    S-SPF uses northbound adjacencies in north node TIEs to verify  <--
> "Node N-TIEs"?
>    backlink connectivity.
>
>    ...
>    As further consideration, the moment A02 looses link N2 the situation
>    evolves again.  A01 will have no more northbound reachability while
>    still seeing A03 advertising northbound adjacencies in its south node
>  <--- "Node S-TIE"?
>    tie.  With that it will stop advertising a default route due to
>    Section 4.2.3.7.  Moreover, A02 may now inject its loopback address
>    as south PGP.
>
> "north/south node TIE" is ambiguous in that it could be interpreted as
> "north/south node's TIE" (TIE of the north/south node), hence the suggested
> change to be stringent.
>

you use both node TIE types as I write ... One to progress, other to
validate backlinks.


>
>        Observe that policy-guided prefixes are NOT affected
>        since their scope is controlled by configuration.
>
> What does the "since ..." part mean? What's the point of that sentence? Is
> it that "PGP are not considered"?
>
>    To summarize the above in simplest terms: if a node detects that its
>    default route encompasses prefixes for which one of the other nodes
>    in its level has no possible next-hops in the level below, it has to
>    disaggregate it to prevent black-holing or suboptimal routing.
>
> "its default route encompasses" is unnecessary? Black-holing or
> sub-optimal forwarding is not caused by this node's default route. Rather,
> it is caused by the default route of the other nodes that has no possible
> next-hops below. Even if this nodes does not have a default route, the
> problem still exist and the solution is the same.
>

hmmm, yes, this is correct but we do NOT see the "other node's" default
routes in the same level & hence we check against the disaggregating node's
one.


rest later, need prepare interim material now ...

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr">inline, we can chew more details in the interim tommorow, =
I plan to have a picture with ZTP &amp; how it hangs together with LIEs (si=
nce it&#39;s integrated basically on LIEs) ... <br><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Jeff=
rey (Zhaohui) Zhang <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.=
net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Tony,<br>
<br>
I have the following questions and comments:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Unless Section 4.2.9 is used, each node is provisioned with th=
e level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0at which it is operating and its PoD (or otherwise a default l=
evel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and &quot;undefined&quot; PoD are assumed; meaning that leafs =
do not need to be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0configured at all if initial configuration values are all left=
 at 0).<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Nodes in the spine are configured with &quot;any&quot; PoD whi=
ch has the same<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0value &quot;undefined&quot; PoD hence we will talk about &quot=
;undefined/any&quot; PoD.<br>
<br>
Is it that w/o ZTP, the following apply:<br>
<br>
- only the leaf nodes can be unconfigured - they will take default level 0 =
and PoD &quot;undefined&quot;<br>
- spines and middle nodes must have level configured<br>
- spines must have pod unconfigured<br>
- nodes right below the spine must have pod configured; lower nodes/leaves =
can have PoD derived<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>correct, the PoD t=
erminology is not fully gelled yet, &quot;undefined&quot; also means &quot;=
any&quot;, i.e. value 0 which is bit confusing but I have no better terms. =
<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On the contrary, w/ ZTP, leaves must be configured with level 0 (explicitly=
 or implicitly via leaf_only or l2l flag)?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>that is incorrect. w/ZTP the leafs _may_ be configured, if they are wit=
h either 0/leaf_only or l2l they _will_ stick to be 0 &amp; leaf, if not th=
ey just end up @ lowest level whatever it is (and it can be even different =
height per PoD), I will paste couple examples in for tommorow. <br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...<br>
<br>
The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think it&=
#39;s better to do so as in OSPF case:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Neighboring routers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Two routers that have interfaces =
to a common network.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Neighbor relationships are mainta=
ined by, and usually<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamically discovered by, OSPF&#=
39;s Hello Protocol.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adjacency<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A relationship formed between sel=
ected neighboring routers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the purpose of exchanging rou=
ting information.=C2=A0 Not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 every pair of neighboring routers=
 become adjacent.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, conciously. we r=
eally just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the same for RIFT. OSPF &=
quot;adjacency&quot; concept is quite difficult to implement and really jus=
t an optimization for large number of parallel links.=C2=A0 Nothing prevent=
s a RIFT implementation to be &quot;smart&quot; in flooding about parallel =
links but each link is really a separate adjacency. <br><br></div><div>That=
 should be probably clarified a bit in draft for the OSPF heavy folks, some=
one suggests a language ...=C2=A0 <br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
The three-way handshake establishes neighborship; after that, level/pod is =
derived and then based on that, we determine if adjacency should be brought=
 up.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A node configured with &quot;undefined&quot; PoD membership MU=
ST, after<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0building first northbound three way adjacencies to a node bein=
g in a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined PoD, advertise that PoD as part of its LIEs.=C2=A0 In =
case that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency is lost, from all available northbound three way<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacencies the node with the highest System ID and defined Po=
D is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0chosen.=C2=A0 That way the northmost defined PoD value (normal=
ly the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0spines in a PoD) can diffuse southbound towards the leafs &quo=
t;forcing&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the PoD value on any node with &quot;undefined&quot; PoD.<br>
<br>
Don&#39;t understand the text in the last sentence above. The spines don&#3=
9;t have PoD configured (they connect to multiple PoDs), right? If we chang=
e &quot;the top spines&quot; to &quot;the top node right below a spine&quot=
; then it makes sense.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>would need pictu=
res, basically PoD membership is &quot;defined&quot; in the top spines of a=
 PoD and &quot;diffuses southbound&quot;.=C2=A0 The superspines (connecting=
 PoDs) are &quot;undefined&quot; or &quot;any&quot; so they will form adjac=
ency to all PoD values below but nothing diffuses. <br></div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0More precisely, a spine node represents two different database=
s to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its neighbors depending whether it advertises TIEs to the nort=
h or to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the south/sideways.<br>
<br>
A spine node does not have north adjacencies. Do you mean &quot;a middle no=
de&quot; in the above paragraph?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, d=
efinition needs improving, Spine should be &quot;superspine&quot; here <br>=
<br><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage">Spine:  The set of nodes that provide inte=
r-PoD communication.  These
      nodes are also organized into levels (typically one, three, or
      five levels).  Spine nodes do not belong to any PoD and are
      assigned the PoD value 0 to indicate this.</pre><br></div><div>and mi=
ddle level is &quot;spine&quot; or &quot;aggregation&quot;<br><br></div><di=
v>will come in -02 <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The N-TIEs hold all of the node&#39;s adjacencies, local prefi=
xes and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0northbound policy-guided prefixes while the S-TIEs hold only a=
ll of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the node&#39;s adjacencies and the default prefix with necessa=
ry<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disaggregated prefixes and southbound policy-guided prefixes.=
=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Why don&#39;t S-TIEs contain local prefixes? Wouldn&#39;t that lead to bett=
er routes on its southern neighbors to those local prefixes?<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>yepp, correct observation. Important especially for l=
oopbacks. In fact the draft does imply that in other writedowns but this <b=
r></div><div>paragraph does not. in -02<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Layer vs. level are used in mix. Should be consistent.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Spine21 S-TIEs:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Node S-TIE:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 NodeElement(layer=3D2, neighbors((Node11=
1, layer 1, cost 1),<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Node112, layer 1, cost 1), (Node121, la=
yer 1, cost 1),<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Node122, layer 1, cost 1)))<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>yes, draft tried to be super-consistent with level=
 vs. layer but something always sneaks in ... <br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Link information (like in the case for Node 111) should be added to the abo=
ve.<br>
Should the cost info be associated with links?<br>
<br>
Node 121: Node S-TIEs do not have link info shown. Better be consistent.<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>suggest diffs. I masaged that too many ti=
mes to bother again ;-)<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<br>
What&#39;s different between NodeElement and NodeLinkElement?<br></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>none, artefact from previous tinkering, corrected ..=
. This is just a conceptual example anyway while schema is normative<br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The mechanism used to distribute TIEs is the well-known (albei=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0modified in several respects to address fat tree requirements)=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0flooding mechanism used by today&#39;s link-state protocols.=
=C2=A0 Albeit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0initially more demanding to implement it avoids many problems =
with<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0diffused computation update style used by path vector.=C2=A0 A=
s described<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0before, TIEs themselves are transported over UDP with the port=
s<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indicates in the LIE exchanges and using the destination addre=
ss (for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0unnumbered IPv4 interfaces same considerations apply as in equ=
ivalent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0OSPF case) on which the LIE adjacency has been formed.<br>
<br>
Need to spell out the details for unnumbered IPv4 interface case instead of=
 referring to OSPF.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, appendices wit=
h LIE &amp; flooding FSM. Going into details here would crowd the <br></div=
><div>draft with well-known things (for the link-state folks). <br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Every N-TIE is flooded northbound, providing a node at a given=
 level<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0with the complete topology of the Clos or Fat Tree network und=
erneath<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0it, including all specific prefixes.=C2=A0 This means that a p=
acket<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0received from a node at the same or lower level whose destinat=
ion is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0covered by one of those specific prefixes may be routed direct=
ly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0towards the node advertising that prefix rather than sending t=
he<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet to a node at a higher level.<br>
<br>
&quot;received from a node at the same or lower level&quot; should be remov=
ed;<br>
No matter where the packet is received from, the rest of the text applies.<=
br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have to think whether this is complet=
ely true given different prefix types and their preference. I think it is. =
<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.2.5.1.=C2=A0 Northbound SPF=C2=A0 &lt;--- clarify it&#39;s for traffic go=
ing north<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0N-SPF uses northbound and east-west adjacencies in North Node =
TIEs=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;-- &quot;Node S-TIEs&quot;?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when progressing Dijkstra.=C2=A0 Observe that this is really j=
ust a one<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0hop variety since South Node TIEs are not re-flooded southboun=
d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;--- &quot;Node S-TIEs&quot;?<=
br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>corrected Node S-TIEs<br><br></div><div=
>I&#39;m apprehensive introducing the binding between SPFs and which direct=
ion traffic is going, I don&#39;t think<br></div><div>it&#39;s necessary. <=
br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond a single level (or east-west) and with that the computa=
tion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0...<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For N-SPF we are using the South Node TIEs to find according=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;--- &quot;Node S-TIEs&quot;?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity.=C2=A0 Just as in =
case of IS-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together t=
o<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0confirm bidirectional connectivity.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>ok, I clarify, what you _really_ do is the following <br><br>&quo=
t;<br><span class=3D"gmail-Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium=
"><span class=3D"gmail-Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:verdana,helve=
tica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><p id=3D"gmail-rfc.section.4.2.5.1.p.=
1" style=3D"margin-left:2em;margin-right:2em">N-SPF uses northbound and Eas=
t-West adjacencies in the computing node&#39;s node N-TIEs (since if the no=
de is a leaf it may not have generated a node S-TIE) when starting Dijkstra=
. Observe that N-SPF is really just a one hop variety since Node S-TIEs are=
 not re-flooded southbound beyond a single level (or East-West) and with th=
at the computation cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.</p><p id=3D"gmail=
-rfc.section.4.2.5.1.p.2" style=3D"margin-left:2em;margin-right:2em">Once p=
rogressing, we are using the next level&#39;s node S-TIEs to find according=
 adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity. Just as in case of IS-IS or O=
SPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to confirm bidirectio=
nal connectivi</p></span></span><br>&quot;<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.2.5.2.=C2=A0 Southbound SPF<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0S-SPF uses only the southb</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">ound adjacencies in the south node TIEs,=C2=A0 &lt;-- &quot;Node N-=
TIEs&quot;?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>nope, node S-TIEs.=C2=A0 Th=
e SPF is counter-intuitive in this respect, you start own node with the dir=
ection of the SPF, then you use counter-direction to verify backlinks and t=
hen you take the next node&#39;s TIEs in the SPF direction again ... <br></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0i.e. progresses towards nodes at lower levels.=C2=A0 Observe t=
hat E-W<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacencies are NEVER used in the computation.=C2=A0 This enfo=
rces the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0requirement that a packet traversing in a southbound direction=
 must<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0never change its direction.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0S-SPF uses northbound adjacencies in north node TIEs to verify=
=C2=A0 &lt;-- &quot;Node N-TIEs&quot;?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0backlink connectivity.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0...<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As further consideration, the moment A02 looses link N2 the si=
tuation<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0evolves again.=C2=A0 A01 will have no more northbound reachabi=
lity while<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0still seeing A03 advertising northbound adjacencies in its sou=
th node=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;--- &quot;Node S-TIE&quot;?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tie.=C2=A0 With that it will stop advertising a default route =
due to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.2.3.7.=C2=A0 Moreover, A02 may now inject its loopba=
ck address<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as south PGP.<br>
<br>
&quot;north/south node TIE&quot; is ambiguous in that it could be interpret=
ed as &quot;north/south node&#39;s TIE&quot; (TIE of the north/south node),=
 hence the suggested change to be stringent.<br></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>you use both node TIE types as I write ... One to progress, other to =
validate backlinks. <br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Observe that policy-guided prefixes are NOT affe=
cted<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0since their scope is controlled by configuration=
.<br>
<br>
What does the &quot;since ...&quot; part mean? What&#39;s the point of that=
 sentence? Is it that &quot;PGP are not considered&quot;?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0To summarize the above in simplest terms: if a node detects th=
at its<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0default route encompasses prefixes for which one of the other =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in its level has no possible next-hops in the level below, it =
has to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disaggregate it to prevent black-holing or suboptimal routing.=
<br>
<br>
&quot;its default route encompasses&quot; is unnecessary? Black-holing or s=
ub-optimal forwarding is not caused by this node&#39;s default route. Rathe=
r, it is caused by the default route of the other nodes that has no possibl=
e next-hops below. Even if this nodes does not have a default route, the pr=
oblem still exist and the solution is the same.<br></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>hmmm, yes, this is correct but we do NOT see the &quot;other node&=
#39;s&quot; default routes in the same level &amp; hence we check against t=
he disaggregating node&#39;s one. <br></div><div>=C2=A0<br><br></div><div>r=
est later, need prepare interim material now ... <br><br></div><div>--- ton=
y <br></div></div><br></div></div></div>

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Very happy to see further clarifications and increasingly better readability=
 of the draft!

Given - not all the comments will make it to the updated draft, I think WiKi=
 alike format would be rather useful.

Wdyt?

Regards,
Jeff

> On May 1, 2018, at 11:35, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> inline, we can chew more details in the interim tommorow, I plan to have a=
 picture with ZTP & how it hangs together with LIEs (since it's integrated b=
asically on LIEs) ...=20
>=20
>> On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.n=
et> wrote:
>> Hi Tony,
>>=20
>> I have the following questions and comments:
>>=20
>>    Unless Section 4.2.9 is used, each node is provisioned with the level
>>    at which it is operating and its PoD (or otherwise a default level
>>    and "undefined" PoD are assumed; meaning that leafs do not need to be
>>    configured at all if initial configuration values are all left at 0).
>>    Nodes in the spine are configured with "any" PoD which has the same
>>    value "undefined" PoD hence we will talk about "undefined/any" PoD.
>>=20
>> Is it that w/o ZTP, the following apply:
>>=20
>> - only the leaf nodes can be unconfigured - they will take default level 0=
 and PoD "undefined"
>> - spines and middle nodes must have level configured
>> - spines must have pod unconfigured
>> - nodes right below the spine must have pod configured; lower nodes/leave=
s can have PoD derived
>=20
> correct, the PoD terminology is not fully gelled yet, "undefined" also mea=
ns "any", i.e. value 0 which is bit confusing but I have no better terms.=20=

> =20
>>=20
>> On the contrary, w/ ZTP, leaves must be configured with level 0 (explicit=
ly or implicitly via leaf_only or l2l flag)?
>=20
> that is incorrect. w/ZTP the leafs _may_ be configured, if they are with e=
ither 0/leaf_only or l2l they _will_ stick to be 0 & leaf, if not they just e=
nd up @ lowest level whatever it is (and it can be even different height per=
 PoD), I will paste couple examples in for tommorow.=20
> =20
>>=20
>>    A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if
>>    (definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...
>>=20
>> The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think i=
t's better to do so as in OSPF case:
>>         Neighboring routers
>>             Two routers that have interfaces to a common network.
>>             Neighbor relationships are maintained by, and usually
>>             dynamically discovered by, OSPF's Hello Protocol.
>>=20
>>         Adjacency
>>             A relationship formed between selected neighboring routers
>>             for the purpose of exchanging routing information.  Not
>>             every pair of neighboring routers become adjacent.
>=20
> yes, conciously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the=
 same for RIFT. OSPF "adjacency" concept is quite difficult to implement and=
 really just an optimization for large number of parallel links.  Nothing pr=
events a RIFT implementation to be "smart" in flooding about parallel links b=
ut each link is really a separate adjacency.=20
>=20
> That should be probably clarified a bit in draft for the OSPF heavy folks,=
 someone suggests a language ... =20
> =20
>>=20
>> The three-way handshake establishes neighborship; after that, level/pod i=
s derived and then based on that, we determine if adjacency should be brough=
t up.
>>=20
>>    A node configured with "undefined" PoD membership MUST, after
>>    building first northbound three way adjacencies to a node being in a
>>    defined PoD, advertise that PoD as part of its LIEs.  In case that
>>    adjacency is lost, from all available northbound three way
>>    adjacencies the node with the highest System ID and defined PoD is
>>    chosen.  That way the northmost defined PoD value (normally the top
>>    spines in a PoD) can diffuse southbound towards the leafs "forcing"
>>    the PoD value on any node with "undefined" PoD.
>>=20
>> Don't understand the text in the last sentence above. The spines don't ha=
ve PoD configured (they connect to multiple PoDs), right? If we change "the t=
op spines" to "the top node right below a spine" then it makes sense.
>=20
> would need pictures, basically PoD membership is "defined" in the top spin=
es of a PoD and "diffuses southbound".  The superspines (connecting PoDs) ar=
e "undefined" or "any" so they will form adjacency to all PoD values below b=
ut nothing diffuses.=20
> =20
>>=20
>>    More precisely, a spine node represents two different databases to
>>    its neighbors depending whether it advertises TIEs to the north or to
>>    the south/sideways.
>>=20
>> A spine node does not have north adjacencies. Do you mean "a middle node"=
 in the above paragraph?
>=20
> yes, definition needs improving, Spine should be "superspine" here=20
>=20
> Spine:  The set of nodes that provide inter-PoD communication.  These
>       nodes are also organized into levels (typically one, three, or
>       five levels).  Spine nodes do not belong to any PoD and are
>       assigned the PoD value 0 to indicate this.
>=20
> and middle level is "spine" or "aggregation"
>=20
> will come in -02=20
>=20
>>=20
>>    The N-TIEs hold all of the node's adjacencies, local prefixes and
>>    northbound policy-guided prefixes while the S-TIEs hold only all of
>>    the node's adjacencies and the default prefix with necessary
>>    disaggregated prefixes and southbound policy-guided prefixes. =20
>>=20
>> Why don't S-TIEs contain local prefixes? Wouldn't that lead to better rou=
tes on its southern neighbors to those local prefixes?
>=20
> yepp, correct observation. Important especially for loopbacks. In fact the=
 draft does imply that in other writedowns but this=20
> paragraph does not. in -02
> =20
>>=20
>> Layer vs. level are used in mix. Should be consistent.
>>=20
>>         Spine21 S-TIEs:
>>         Node S-TIE:
>>           NodeElement(layer=3D2, neighbors((Node111, layer 1, cost 1),
>>           (Node112, layer 1, cost 1), (Node121, layer 1, cost 1),
>>           (Node122, layer 1, cost 1)))
>=20
> yes, draft tried to be super-consistent with level vs. layer but something=
 always sneaks in ...=20
> =20
>>=20
>> Link information (like in the case for Node 111) should be added to the a=
bove.
>> Should the cost info be associated with links?
>>=20
>> Node 121: Node S-TIEs do not have link info shown. Better be consistent.
>=20
> suggest diffs. I masaged that too many times to bother again ;-)
> =20
>>=20
>> What's different between NodeElement and NodeLinkElement?
>=20
> none, artefact from previous tinkering, corrected .... This is just a conc=
eptual example anyway while schema is normative
> =20
>>=20
>>    The mechanism used to distribute TIEs is the well-known (albeit
>>    modified in several respects to address fat tree requirements)
>>    flooding mechanism used by today's link-state protocols.  Albeit
>>    initially more demanding to implement it avoids many problems with
>>    diffused computation update style used by path vector.  As described
>>    before, TIEs themselves are transported over UDP with the ports
>>    indicates in the LIE exchanges and using the destination address (for
>>    unnumbered IPv4 interfaces same considerations apply as in equivalent
>>    OSPF case) on which the LIE adjacency has been formed.
>>=20
>> Need to spell out the details for unnumbered IPv4 interface case instead o=
f referring to OSPF.
>=20
> yes, appendices with LIE & flooding FSM. Going into details here would cro=
wd the=20
> draft with well-known things (for the link-state folks).=20
> =20
>>=20
>>    Every N-TIE is flooded northbound, providing a node at a given level
>>    with the complete topology of the Clos or Fat Tree network underneath
>>    it, including all specific prefixes.  This means that a packet
>>    received from a node at the same or lower level whose destination is
>>    covered by one of those specific prefixes may be routed directly
>>    towards the node advertising that prefix rather than sending the
>>    packet to a node at a higher level.
>>=20
>> "received from a node at the same or lower level" should be removed;
>> No matter where the packet is received from, the rest of the text applies=
.
>=20
> I have to think whether this is completely true given different prefix typ=
es and their preference. I think it is.=20
> =20
>>=20
>> 4.2.5.1.  Northbound SPF  <--- clarify it's for traffic going north
>>    N-SPF uses northbound and east-west adjacencies in North Node TIEs   <=
-- "Node S-TIEs"?
>>    when progressing Dijkstra.  Observe that this is really just a one
>>    hop variety since South Node TIEs are not re-flooded southbound       =
    <--- "Node S-TIEs"?
>=20
> corrected Node S-TIEs
>=20
> I'm apprehensive introducing the binding between SPFs and which direction t=
raffic is going, I don't think
> it's necessary.=20
>=20
> =20
>>    beyond a single level (or east-west) and with that the computation
>>    cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.
>>    ...
>>    For N-SPF we are using the South Node TIEs to find according   <--- "N=
ode S-TIEs"?
>>    adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity.  Just as in case of IS-
>>    IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to
>>    confirm bidirectional connectivity.
>=20
> ok, I clarify, what you _really_ do is the following=20
>=20
> "
> N-SPF uses northbound and East-West adjacencies in the computing node's no=
de N-TIEs (since if the node is a leaf it may not have generated a node S-TI=
E) when starting Dijkstra.. Observe that N-SPF is really just a one hop vari=
ety since Node S-TIEs are not re-flooded southbound beyond a single level (o=
r East-West) and with that the computation cannot progress beyond adjacent n=
odes.
>=20
> Once progressing, we are using the next level's node S-TIEs to find accord=
ing adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity. Just as in case of IS-IS or=
 OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to confirm bidirecti=
onal connectivi
>=20
>=20
> "
> =20
>>=20
>> 4.2.5.2.  Southbound SPF
>>=20
>>    S-SPF uses only the southb
>> ound adjacencies in the south node TIEs,  <-- "Node N-TIEs"?
>=20
> nope, node S-TIEs.  The SPF is counter-intuitive in this respect, you star=
t own node with the direction of the SPF, then you use counter-direction to v=
erify backlinks and then you take the next node's TIEs in the SPF direction a=
gain ...=20
> =20
>>    i.e. progresses towards nodes at lower levels.  Observe that E-W
>>    adjacencies are NEVER used in the computation.  This enforces the
>>    requirement that a packet traversing in a southbound direction must
>>    never change its direction.
>>=20
>>=20
>>    S-SPF uses northbound adjacencies in north node TIEs to verify  <-- "N=
ode N-TIEs"?
>>    backlink connectivity.
>>=20
>>    ...
>>    As further consideration, the moment A02 looses link N2 the situation
>>    evolves again.  A01 will have no more northbound reachability while
>>    still seeing A03 advertising northbound adjacencies in its south node =
  <--- "Node S-TIE"?
>>    tie.  With that it will stop advertising a default route due to
>>    Section 4.2.3.7.  Moreover, A02 may now inject its loopback address
>>    as south PGP.
>>=20
>> "north/south node TIE" is ambiguous in that it could be interpreted as "n=
orth/south node's TIE" (TIE of the north/south node), hence the suggested ch=
ange to be stringent.
>=20
> you use both node TIE types as I write ... One to progress, other to valid=
ate backlinks.=20
> =20
>>=20
>>        Observe that policy-guided prefixes are NOT affected
>>        since their scope is controlled by configuration..
>>=20
>> What does the "since ..." part mean? What's the point of that sentence? I=
s it that "PGP are not considered"?
>>=20
>>    To summarize the above in simplest terms: if a node detects that its
>>    default route encompasses prefixes for which one of the other nodes
>>    in its level has no possible next-hops in the level below, it has to
>>    disaggregate it to prevent black-holing or suboptimal routing.
>>=20
>> "its default route encompasses" is unnecessary? Black-holing or sub-optim=
al forwarding is not caused by this node's default route. Rather, it is caus=
ed by the default route of the other nodes that has no possible next-hops be=
low. Even if this nodes does not have a default route, the problem still exi=
st and the solution is the same.
>=20
> hmmm, yes, this is correct but we do NOT see the "other node's" default ro=
utes in the same level & hence we check against the disaggregating node's on=
e.=20
> =20
>=20
> rest later, need prepare interim material now ...=20
>=20
> --- tony=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Rift mailing list
> Rift@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Very happy to see further clarifications an=
d increasingly better readability of the draft!<div><br></div><div>Given - n=
ot all the comments will make it to the updated draft, I think WiKi alike fo=
rmat would be rather useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Wdyt?</div><div><br><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff</div></div><div><br>On May 1,=
 2018, at 11:35, Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com">=
tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr">inline, we can chew more details in the interim tommorow=
, I plan to have a picture with ZTP &amp; how it hangs together with LIEs (s=
ince it's integrated basically on LIEs) ... <br><div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Jeffrey (=
Zhaohui) Zhang <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" t=
arget=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">Hi Tony,<br>
<br>
I have the following questions and comments:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Unless Section 4.2.9 is used, each node is provisioned with the=
 level<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;at which it is operating and its PoD (or otherwise a default le=
vel<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;and "undefined" PoD are assumed; meaning that leafs do not need=
 to be<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;configured at all if initial configuration values are all left a=
t 0).<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Nodes in the spine are configured with "any" PoD which has the s=
ame<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;value "undefined" PoD hence we will talk about "undefined/any" P=
oD.<br>
<br>
Is it that w/o ZTP, the following apply:<br>
<br>
- only the leaf nodes can be unconfigured - they will take default level 0 a=
nd PoD "undefined"<br>
- spines and middle nodes must have level configured<br>
- spines must have pod unconfigured<br>
- nodes right below the spine must have pod configured; lower nodes/leaves c=
an have PoD derived<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>correct, the PoD ter=
minology is not fully gelled yet, "undefined" also means "any", i.e. value 0=
 which is bit confusing but I have no better terms. <br></div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
On the contrary, w/ ZTP, leaves must be configured with level 0 (explicitly o=
r implicitly via leaf_only or l2l flag)?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>that is incorrect. w/ZTP the leafs _may_ be configured, if they are with ei=
ther 0/leaf_only or l2l they _will_ stick to be 0 &amp; leaf, if not they ju=
st end up @ lowest level whatever it is (and it can be even different height=
 per PoD), I will paste couple examples in for tommorow. <br></div><div>&nbs=
p;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;(definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...<br>
<br>
The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think it's=
 better to do so as in OSPF case:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neighboring routers<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Two routers that have interfaces t=
o a common network.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neighbor relationships are maintai=
ned by, and usually<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; dynamically discovered by, OSPF's H=
ello Protocol.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adjacency<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A relationship formed between sele=
cted neighboring routers<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for the purpose of exchanging rout=
ing information.&nbsp; Not<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; every pair of neighboring routers b=
ecome adjacent.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, conciously. we real=
ly just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the same for RIFT. OSPF "adja=
cency" concept is quite difficult to implement and really just an optimizati=
on for large number of parallel links.&nbsp; Nothing prevents a RIFT impleme=
ntation to be "smart" in flooding about parallel links but each link is real=
ly a separate adjacency. <br><br></div><div>That should be probably clarifie=
d a bit in draft for the OSPF heavy folks, someone suggests a language ...&n=
bsp; <br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
The three-way handshake establishes neighborship; after that, level/pod is d=
erived and then based on that, we determine if adjacency should be brought u=
p.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;A node configured with "undefined" PoD membership MUST, after<b=
r>
&nbsp; &nbsp;building first northbound three way adjacencies to a node being=
 in a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;defined PoD, advertise that PoD as part of its LIEs.&nbsp; In c=
ase that<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;adjacency is lost, from all available northbound three way<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;adjacencies the node with the highest System ID and defined PoD=
 is<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;chosen.&nbsp; That way the northmost defined PoD value (normall=
y the top<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;spines in a PoD) can diffuse southbound towards the leafs "forc=
ing"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;the PoD value on any node with "undefined" PoD.<br>
<br>
Don't understand the text in the last sentence above. The spines don't have P=
oD configured (they connect to multiple PoDs), right? If we change "the top s=
pines" to "the top node right below a spine" then it makes sense.<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>would need pictures, basically PoD membership is "=
defined" in the top spines of a PoD and "diffuses southbound".&nbsp; The sup=
erspines (connecting PoDs) are "undefined" or "any" so they will form adjace=
ncy to all PoD values below but nothing diffuses. <br></div><div>&nbsp;</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;More precisely, a spine node represents two different databases=
 to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;its neighbors depending whether it advertises TIEs to the north=
 or to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;the south/sideways.<br>
<br>
A spine node does not have north adjacencies. Do you mean "a middle node" in=
 the above paragraph?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, definition ne=
eds improving, Spine should be "superspine" here <br><br><pre class=3D"gmail=
-newpage">Spine:  The set of nodes that provide inter-PoD communication.  Th=
ese
      nodes are also organized into levels (typically one, three, or
      five levels).  Spine nodes do not belong to any PoD and are
      assigned the PoD value 0 to indicate this.</pre><br></div><div>and mid=
dle level is "spine" or "aggregation"<br><br></div><div>will come in -02 <br=
></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The N-TIEs hold all of the node's adjacencies, local prefixes a=
nd<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;northbound policy-guided prefixes while the S-TIEs hold only al=
l of<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;the node's adjacencies and the default prefix with necessary<br=
>
&nbsp; &nbsp;disaggregated prefixes and southbound policy-guided prefixes.&n=
bsp; <br>
<br>
Why don't S-TIEs contain local prefixes? Wouldn't that lead to better routes=
 on its southern neighbors to those local prefixes?<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>yepp, correct observation. Important especially for loopbacks. I=
n fact the draft does imply that in other writedowns but this <br></div><div=
>paragraph does not. in -02<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<br>
Layer vs. level are used in mix. Should be consistent.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Spine21 S-TIEs:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Node S-TIE:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NodeElement(layer=3D2, neighbors((Node111=
, layer 1, cost 1),<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (Node112, layer 1, cost 1), (Node121, lay=
er 1, cost 1),<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (Node122, layer 1, cost 1)))<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>yes, draft tried to be super-consistent with level v=
s. layer but something always sneaks in ... <br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Link information (like in the case for Node 111) should be added to the abov=
e.<br>
Should the cost info be associated with links?<br>
<br>
Node 121: Node S-TIEs do not have link info shown. Better be consistent.<br>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>suggest diffs. I masaged that too many time=
s to bother again ;-)<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">
<br>
What's different between NodeElement and NodeLinkElement?<br></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>none, artefact from previous tinkering, corrected .... Thi=
s is just a conceptual example anyway while schema is normative<br></div><di=
v>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The mechanism used to distribute TIEs is the well-known (albeit=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;modified in several respects to address fat tree requirements)<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;flooding mechanism used by today's link-state protocols.&nbsp; A=
lbeit<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;initially more demanding to implement it avoids many problems w=
ith<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;diffused computation update style used by path vector.&nbsp; As=
 described<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;before, TIEs themselves are transported over UDP with the ports=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;indicates in the LIE exchanges and using the destination addres=
s (for<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;unnumbered IPv4 interfaces same considerations apply as in equi=
valent<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;OSPF case) on which the LIE adjacency has been formed.<br>
<br>
Need to spell out the details for unnumbered IPv4 interface case instead of r=
eferring to OSPF.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yes, appendices with L=
IE &amp; flooding FSM. Going into details here would crowd the <br></div><di=
v>draft with well-known things (for the link-state folks). <br></div><div>&n=
bsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Every N-TIE is flooded northbound, providing a node at a given l=
evel<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;with the complete topology of the Clos or Fat Tree network unde=
rneath<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;it, including all specific prefixes.&nbsp; This means that a pa=
cket<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;received from a node at the same or lower level whose destinati=
on is<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;covered by one of those specific prefixes may be routed directl=
y<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;towards the node advertising that prefix rather than sending th=
e<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;packet to a node at a higher level.<br>
<br>
"received from a node at the same or lower level" should be removed;<br>
No matter where the packet is received from, the rest of the text applies.<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have to think whether this is completel=
y true given different prefix types and their preference. I think it is. <br=
></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.2.5.1.&nbsp; Northbound SPF&nbsp; &lt;--- clarify it's for traffic going n=
orth<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;N-SPF uses northbound and east-west adjacencies in North Node T=
IEs&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;-- "Node S-TIEs"?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;when progressing Dijkstra.&nbsp; Observe that this is really ju=
st a one<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;hop variety since South Node TIEs are not re-flooded southbound=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;--- "Node S-TIEs"?<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>corrected Node S-TIEs<br><br></div><div>I'm apprehen=
sive introducing the binding between SPFs and which direction traffic is goi=
ng, I don't think<br></div><div>it's necessary. <br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&nbsp; &nbsp;beyond a single level (or east-west) and with that the computat=
ion<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;cannot progress beyond adjacent nodes.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;...<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;For N-SPF we are using the South Node TIEs to find according&nb=
sp; &nbsp;&lt;--- "Node S-TIEs"?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;adjacencies to verify backlink connectivity.&nbsp; Just as in c=
ase of IS-<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links are associated together to=
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;confirm bidirectional connectivity.<br></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>ok, I clarify, what you _really_ do is the following <br><br>"<br><=
span class=3D"gmail-Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail-Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:verdana,helvetica,arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px"><p id=3D"gmail-rfc.section.4.2.5.1.p.1" style=3D"m=
argin-left:2em;margin-right:2em">N-SPF uses northbound and East-West adjacen=
cies in the computing node's node N-TIEs (since if the node is a leaf it may=
 not have generated a node S-TIE) when starting Dijkstra.. Observe that N-SP=
F is really just a one hop variety since Node S-TIEs are not re-flooded sout=
hbound beyond a single level (or East-West) and with that the computation ca=
nnot progress beyond adjacent nodes.</p><p id=3D"gmail-rfc.section.4.2.5.1.p=
.2" style=3D"margin-left:2em;margin-right:2em">Once progressing, we are usin=
g the next level's node S-TIEs to find according adjacencies to verify backl=
ink connectivity. Just as in case of IS-IS or OSPF, two unidirectional links=
 are associated together to confirm bidirectional connectivi</p></span></spa=
n><br>"<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.2.5.2.&nbsp; Southbound SPF<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;S-SPF uses only the southb</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">ound adjacencies in the south node TIEs,&nbsp; &lt;-- "Node N-TIEs"?<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>nope, node S-TIEs.&nbsp; The SPF is count=
er-intuitive in this respect, you start own node with the direction of the S=
PF, then you use counter-direction to verify backlinks and then you take the=
 next node's TIEs in the SPF direction again ... <br></div><div>&nbsp;</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&nbsp; &nbsp;i.e. progresses towards nodes at lower levels.&nbsp; Observe th=
at E-W<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;adjacencies are NEVER used in the computation.&nbsp; This enfor=
ces the<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;requirement that a packet traversing in a southbound direction m=
ust<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;never change its direction.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;S-SPF uses northbound adjacencies in north node TIEs to verify&=
nbsp; &lt;-- "Node N-TIEs"?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;backlink connectivity.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;...<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;As further consideration, the moment A02 looses link N2 the sit=
uation<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;evolves again.&nbsp; A01 will have no more northbound reachabil=
ity while<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;still seeing A03 advertising northbound adjacencies in its sout=
h node&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;--- "Node S-TIE"?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;tie.&nbsp; With that it will stop advertising a default route d=
ue to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Section 4.2.3.7.&nbsp; Moreover, A02 may now inject its loopbac=
k address<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;as south PGP.<br>
<br>
"north/south node TIE" is ambiguous in that it could be interpreted as "nort=
h/south node's TIE" (TIE of the north/south node), hence the suggested chang=
e to be stringent.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>you use both node TIE=
 types as I write ... One to progress, other to validate backlinks. <br></di=
v><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Observe that policy-guided prefixes are NOT affec=
ted<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;since their scope is controlled by configuration.=
.<br>
<br>
What does the "since ..." part mean? What's the point of that sentence? Is i=
t that "PGP are not considered"?<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;To summarize the above in simplest terms: if a node detects tha=
t its<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;default route encompasses prefixes for which one of the other n=
odes<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;in its level has no possible next-hops in the level below, it h=
as to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;disaggregate it to prevent black-holing or suboptimal routing.<=
br>
<br>
"its default route encompasses" is unnecessary? Black-holing or sub-optimal f=
orwarding is not caused by this node's default route. Rather, it is caused b=
y the default route of the other nodes that has no possible next-hops below.=
 Even if this nodes does not have a default route, the problem still exist a=
nd the solution is the same.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>hmmm, yes, t=
his is correct but we do NOT see the "other node's" default routes in the sa=
me level &amp; hence we check against the disaggregating node's one. <br></d=
iv><div>&nbsp;<br><br></div><div>rest later, need prepare interim material n=
ow ... <br><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Rift mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:Rift@ietf.org">Rift@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/rift</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "rift@ietf.org" <rift@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: OSPF/RIFT Neighbor & Adjacency
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Subject: [Rift] OSPF/RIFT Neighbor & Adjacency
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Pulling this out to its own from the other thread.

--------------------------------------------

   A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if
   (definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...

zzh> The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I thin=
k it's better to do so as in OSPF case:
        Neighboring routers
            Two routers that have interfaces to a common network.
            Neighbor relationships are maintained by, and usually
            dynamically discovered by, OSPF's Hello Protocol.

        Adjacency
            A relationship formed between selected neighboring routers
            for the purpose of exchanging routing information.  Not
            every pair of neighboring routers become adjacent.

Prz> yes, conciously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is=
 the same for RIFT. OSPF "adjacency" concept is quite difficult to implemen=
t and really just an optimization for large number of parallel links.  Noth=
ing prevents a RIFT implementation to be "smart" in flooding about parallel=
 links but each link is really a separate adjacency.
--------------------------------------------
In OSPF, even with parallel links between two neighbors, there will be sepa=
rate adjacencies - one adjacency on each link and no different from RIFT he=
re.
However, my point here is that the three-way handshake should be separate f=
rom adjacency forming and it does not care about level/pod/whatever. The ha=
ndshake only confirms two-way communication; then based on the exchanged le=
vel/pod information a decision is made whether to bring up adjacency. When =
a neighbor advertises a different level, adjacency may form or be torn down=
, but there is no need to restart handshake.
Jeffrey


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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>Pulling this out to its own from the other thread.</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>--------------------------------------------</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>

<font face=3D"Calibri">&nbsp; &nbsp;A node tries to form a three way adjace=
ncy if and only if<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp;(definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...<br>

<br>

</font><font face=3D"Calibri">zzh&gt; </font><font face=3D"Calibri">The dra=
ft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think it's bette=
r to do so as in OSPF case:<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neighboring routers<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Two routers that have interfaces =
to a common network.<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neighbor relationships are mainta=
ined by, and usually<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; dynamically discovered by, OSPF's=
 Hello Protocol.<br>

<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Adjacency<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A relationship formed between sel=
ected neighboring routers<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for the purpose of exchanging rou=
ting information.&nbsp; Not<br>

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; every pair of neighboring routers=
 become adjacent.</font></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Calibri">Prz&gt; yes, conc=
iously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the same for =
RIFT. OSPF &quot;adjacency&quot; concept is quite difficult to implement an=
d really just an optimization for large number of
parallel links.&nbsp; Nothing prevents a RIFT implementation to be &quot;sm=
art&quot; in flooding about parallel links but each link is really a separa=
te adjacency. </font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Calibri">-----------------=
---------------------------</font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Calibri">In OSPF, even wit=
h parallel links between two neighbors, there will be separate adjacencies =
- one adjacency on each link and no different from RIFT here.</font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Calibri">However, my point=
 here is that the three-way handshake should be separate from adjacency for=
ming and it does not care about level/pod/whatever. The handshake only conf=
irms two-way communication; then based
on the exchanged level/pod information a decision is made whether to bring =
up adjacency. When a neighbor advertises a different level, adjacency may f=
orm or be torn down, but there is no need to restart handshake.</font></div=
>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Calibri">Jeffrey</font></d=
iv>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;"><font face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</f=
ont></div>
</span></font>
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 17:48:22 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Rift] OSPF/RIFT Neighbor & Adjacency
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On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net
> wrote:

> Pulling this out to its own from the other thread.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>    A node tries to form a three way adjacency if and only if
>    (definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...
>
> zzh> The draft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I
> think it's better to do so as in OSPF case:
>         Neighboring routers
>             Two routers that have interfaces to a common network.
>             Neighbor relationships are maintained by, and usually
>             dynamically discovered by, OSPF's Hello Protocol.
>
>         Adjacency
>             A relationship formed between selected neighboring routers
>             for the purpose of exchanging routing information.  Not
>             every pair of neighboring routers become adjacent.
>
> Prz> yes, conciously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which
> is the same for RIFT. OSPF "adjacency" concept is quite difficult to
> implement and really just an optimization for large number of parallel
> links.  Nothing prevents a RIFT implementation to be "smart" in flooding
> about parallel links but each link is really a separate adjacency.
> --------------------------------------------
> In OSPF, even with parallel links between two neighbors, there will be
> separate adjacencies - one adjacency on each link and no different from
> RIFT here.
>
yes, but OSPF has one neighbor, RIFT doesn't have "neighbors" or rather
adjacency=neighbor



> However, my point here is that the three-way handshake should be separate
> from adjacency forming and it does not care about level/pod/whatever. The
> handshake only confirms two-way communication; then based on the exchanged
> level/pod information a decision is made whether to bring up adjacency.
> When a neighbor advertises a different level, adjacency may form or be torn
> down, but there is no need to restart handshake.
>
there is a gotcha-22. Unless you've chosen your level via ZTP you can't
form adjacency (because level matching is part of adjacency forming) so ZTP
must be part of adjacency forming, i.e. adjacency forming choses level &
when level match the adjacency 3-ways. I'll show flows tommorow ...  In a
sense what you suggest happens, one-way is basically ZTP (or think of it as
two-way, doesn't matter) and once ZTP provides levels that are workable,
3-way forms ...

--- tony

--00000000000001d3bf056b2e741e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juni=
per.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">






<div>
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div>Pulling this out to its own from the other thread.</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div>------------------------------<wbr>--------------</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>

<font face=3D"Calibri">=C2=A0 =C2=A0A node tries to form a three way adjace=
ncy if and only if<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0(definitions of LEAF_ONLY are found in Section 4.2.9) ...<br>

<br>

</font><font face=3D"Calibri">zzh&gt; </font><font face=3D"Calibri">The dra=
ft does not distinguish between neighbors and adjacency. I think it&#39;s b=
etter to do so as in OSPF case:<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Neighboring routers<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Two routers that have interfaces =
to a common network.<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Neighbor relationships are mainta=
ined by, and usually<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamically discovered by, OSPF&#=
39;s Hello Protocol.<br>

<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adjacency<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A relationship formed between sel=
ected neighboring routers<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the purpose of exchanging rou=
ting information.=C2=A0 Not<br>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 every pair of neighboring routers=
 become adjacent.</font></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Calibri">Prz&gt; yes, conci=
ously. we really just have a p2p adjacency/neighbor which is the same for R=
IFT. OSPF &quot;adjacency&quot; concept is quite difficult to implement and=
 really just an optimization for large number of
parallel links.=C2=A0 Nothing prevents a RIFT implementation to be &quot;sm=
art&quot; in flooding about parallel links but each link is really a separa=
te adjacency. </font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Calibri">------------------=
------------<wbr>--------------</font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Calibri">In OSPF, even with=
 parallel links between two neighbors, there will be separate adjacencies -=
 one adjacency on each link and no different from RIFT here.</font></div></=
span></font></div></blockquote><div>yes, but OSPF has one neighbor, RIFT do=
esn&#39;t have &quot;neighbors&quot; or rather adjacency=3Dneighbor<br></di=
v><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><font size=3D"2"=
 face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Calibri">However, my point =
here is that the three-way handshake should be separate from adjacency form=
ing and it does not care about level/pod/whatever. The handshake only confi=
rms two-way communication; then based
on the exchanged level/pod information a decision is made whether to bring =
up adjacency. When a neighbor advertises a different level, adjacency may f=
orm or be torn down, but there is no need to restart handshake.</font></div=
></span></font></div></blockquote><div>there is a gotcha-22. Unless you&#39=
;ve chosen your level via ZTP you can&#39;t form adjacency (because level m=
atching is part of adjacency forming) so ZTP must be part of adjacency form=
ing, i.e. adjacency forming choses level &amp; when level match the adjacen=
cy 3-ways. I&#39;ll show flows tommorow ...=C2=A0 In a sense what you sugge=
st happens, one-way is basically ZTP (or think of it as two-way, doesn&#39;=
t matter) and once ZTP provides levels that are workable, 3-way forms ... <=
br><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br></div></div>

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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Rift] interim preso ...
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For tommorow's first day interim here's the material. It will be helpful to
have it while listening to flip back/look for more details when necessary
...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ug3Bt5Hj_y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?usp=sharing

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>For tommorow&#39;s first day interim here&#39;s the m=
aterial. It will be helpful to have it while listening to flip back/look fo=
r more details when necessary ... <br><br><a href=3D"https://drive.google.c=
om/file/d/1Ug3Bt5Hj_y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?usp=3Dsharing">https://dri=
ve.google.com/file/d/1Ug3Bt5Hj_y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?usp=3Dsharing</=
a><br><br></div>--- tony <br></div>

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attached .yaml files used in the interim ...

--- tony

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 11:28 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> For tommorow's first day interim here's the material. It will be helpful
> to have it while listening to flip back/look for more details when
> necessary ...
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ug3Bt5Hj_y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?
> usp=sharing
>
> --- tony
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>attached .yaml files used in the interim ... <br><br>=
</div>--- tony <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 11:28 PM, Tony Przygienda <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>For tommorow&#39;s first day interim here&#39;s the material. It w=
ill be helpful to have it while listening to flip back/look for more detail=
s when necessary ... <br><br><a href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ug=
3Bt5Hj_y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?usp=3Dsharing" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//drive.google.com/file/<wbr>d/1Ug3Bt5Hj_<wbr>y4DPw71lH3Kex8wEhK4vPCc/view?=
<wbr>usp=3Dsharing</a><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><b=
r></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--- to=
ny <br></font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rift/h9Siulzug3R7K5JCWg-noD7LgVg>
Subject: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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Hi,

Today's session recording is at: https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4fA.

Today's slides and tomorrow's mobility slides are available here: https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/session/rift

See you tomorrow!

Jeffrey


From nobody Wed May  2 22:47:33 2018
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 22:46:49 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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sounds quality is quite bad, lots clipping & fade-out (at least for me).
Maybe it's youtube transcoding ...

--- tony


On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Today's session recording is at: https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4fA.
>
> Today's slides and tomorrow's mobility slides are available here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/session/rift
>
> See you tomorrow!
>
> Jeffrey
>
> _______________________________________________
> RIFT mailing list
> RIFT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>sounds quality is quite bad, lots clipping &amp; fade=
-out (at least for me). Maybe it&#39;s youtube transcoding ... <br><br></di=
v>--- tony <br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang=
@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br=
>
<br>
Today&#39;s session recording is at: <a href=3D"https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4f=
A" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4fA</a>.<b=
r>
<br>
Today&#39;s slides and tomorrow&#39;s mobility slides are available here: <=
a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/session=
/rift" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<w=
br>meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/<wbr>session/rift</a><br>
<br>
See you tomorrow!<br>
<br>
Jeffrey<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
RIFT mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RIFT@ietf.org">RIFT@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/rift</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "rift@ietf.org" <rift@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rift/1uI-AlIcOD1_ocdxyWAKRov3p2w>
Subject: Re: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:33:13 -0700
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To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
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Thanks Jeffrey, well, so I _was_ comprehensible, well at least in auditory
sense ;-)

--- tony

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 7:02 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net=
>
wrote:

> Going through the middle step of converting to mp4 first helped.
>
> The new link is https://youtu.be/BZtFPTgcsbs.
>
> The old one has been deleted.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
> *From:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 3, 2018 8:36 AM
> *To:* Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* rift@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
>
>
>
> The webex recording has to be converted to .wmv first. The local resultin=
g
> .wmv plays well but looks like after uploading the audio quality degraded=
.
>
>
>
> I am going to see if converting from .wmv to mp4 and then uploading helps=
.
>
>
>
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
> *From:* Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 3, 2018 1:47 AM
> *To:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* rift@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session
>
>
>
> sounds quality is quite bad, lots clipping & fade-out (at least for me).
> Maybe it's youtube transcoding ...
>
> --- tony
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <
> zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Today's session recording is at: https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4fA
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__youtu.be_laCa-5FT=
mh4fA&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLG=
cfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&m=3DfkdnAhqVRCqYSWEN9NKVXxzC9mlvuuMq_=
s12VDmwkG0&s=3D_1CXGyhUIbya68mYRnlSBszUUW1nX9nurAVfEpY8mkA&e=3D>
> .
>
> Today's slides and tomorrow's mobility slides are available here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/session/rift
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_meeting_interim-2D2018-2Drift-2D01_session_rift&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63=
rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2=
IDAzeZqE&m=3DfkdnAhqVRCqYSWEN9NKVXxzC9mlvuuMq_s12VDmwkG0&s=3D6mQ0N1eDr9UEjd=
XUGs_9mBqf2toGPGILs0CWrNicPFs&e=3D>
>
> See you tomorrow!
>
> Jeffrey
>
> _______________________________________________
> RIFT mailing list
> RIFT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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>
>
>
>

--000000000000c05b8f056b4e17aa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks Jeffrey, well, so I _was_ comprehensible, well=
 at least in auditory sense ;-)<br><br></div>--- tony <br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 7:02=
 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang=
@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_5137410512258454236WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Going through the middle step of conv=
erting to mp4 first helped.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The new link is
<a href=3D"https://youtu.be/BZtFPTgcsbs" target=3D"_blank">https://youtu.be=
/BZtFPTgcsbs</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The old one has been deleted.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Jeffrey<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Jeffrey
 (Zhaohui) Zhang <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 3, 2018 8:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rift@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rift@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The webex recording has to be convert=
ed to .wmv first. The local resulting .wmv plays well but
 looks like after uploading the audio quality degraded.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I am going to see if converting from =
.wmv to mp4 and then uploading helps.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Jeffrey<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:20.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 3, 2018 1:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rift@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rift@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rift] Recording of the 5/2 virtual interim session<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">sounds quality is qui=
te bad, lots clipping &amp; fade-out (at least for me). Maybe it&#39;s yout=
ube transcoding ...
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">--- tony <u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zh=
ang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juni=
per.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
Today&#39;s session recording is at: <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__youtu.be_laCa-5FTmh4fA&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DH=
AkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_O=
LAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&amp;m=3DfkdnAhqVRCqYSWEN9NKVXxzC9mlvuuMq_s12VDmwkG0&amp=
;s=3D_1CXGyhUIbya68mYRnlSBszUUW1nX9nurAVfEpY8mkA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank=
">
https://youtu.be/laCa_Tmh4fA</a>.<br>
<br>
Today&#39;s slides and tomorrow&#39;s mobility slides are available here: <=
a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracke=
r.ietf.org_meeting_interim-2D2018-2Drift-2D01_session_rift&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6X=
NTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&amp;m=3DfkdnAhqVRCqYSWEN9NKVXxzC9mlvuuMq_s12VDm=
wkG0&amp;s=3D6mQ0N1eDr9UEjdXUGs_9mBqf2toGPGILs0CWrNicPFs&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>meeting/interim-2018-rift-01/<wbr>session=
/rift</a><br>
<br>
See you tomorrow!<br>
<br>
Jeffrey<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
RIFT mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RIFT@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RIFT@ietf.org</a><br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From nobody Thu May  3 10:12:15 2018
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From: Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-przygienda-rift@ietf.org" <draft-przygienda-rift@ietf.org>, "rift@ietf.org" <rift@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rift] Clarification on North/South bound SPF
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Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 17:12:02 +0000
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
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May 3, 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DdtxNoCkC7MA

May 2, 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBZtFPTgcsbs

Jeffrey


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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Hi Alia,

We are sorting through the outstanding issues/items with the RIFT and one o=
f them is the PGP schema/policy definition that Tony listed as red items in=
 his London presentation.

I see the following the incomplete schema:

union TIEElement {
    ...
    /** @todo: policy guided prefixes */
}

Any plan to finish it soon?
Do we need some normative definition for the policy or are the descriptive =
examples in 4.2.4.2 good enough?

Additionally, I have the following questions/comments:

   ... Because the RIFT adjacency is between nodes and
   there may be parallel links between the two nodes, the policy-guided
   prefix is considered to start with the next-hop set that has all
   links to the originating node Y.

It seems to be saying that only one adjacency is formed between two nodes n=
o matter how many parallel links there are between them. However according =
to Tony each link has its own adjacency. On the other hand, I don't think t=
his is relevant in this context so perhaps just remove the first clause?

   Add Cost T:   For each appearance of community S in P.community_list,
      if the node X has community S, then add T to P.cost.

In the above text, "community S" is a bit strange. Seems that the first app=
earance should be "community (S, T)", and I am not sure what "if the node X=
 has community S" should be - should it be "community (S,0)"?

   Accumulate Min-BW T:   Let bw be the sum of the bandwidth for
      P.next_hop_set.  If that sum is less than T, then replace (S,T)
      with (S, bw).

Notice that in the above, there is not requirement of "if the node X has co=
mmunity S" as in the previous example. Is that intended?

   Add Community T if Node matches S:   If the node X has community S,
      then add community T to P.community_list.

The above is again a bit strange, given the earlier text quoted below:

   ... The length of a community is a 64 bits number and it
   can be written as a single field M or as a multi-field (S =3D M[0-31],
   T =3D M[32-63]) in these examples.

For the following:

4.2.4.3.  Store Policy-Guided Prefix for Route Computation and
          Regeneration

   Once a policy-guided prefix has completed ingress filtering and
   policy, it is almost ready to store and use.  It is still necessary
   to adjust the cost of the prefix to account for the link from the
   computing node X to the originating neighbor node Y.

   There are three different policies that can be used:

Could the "three different policies" in the above text changed to "three di=
fferent methods"? They seem to be different from the ingress policy in the =
previous section. Or is it that what method to use is actually controlled b=
y a policy that matches on some communities? If so it would be good to talk=
 about some explicit examples as in the previous section.

Now for the following:

4.2.4.5.  Overlap with Disaggregated Prefixes

   PGPs may overlap with prefixes introduced by automatic de-
   aggregation.  The topic is under further discussion.  The break in
   connectivity that leads to infeasibility of a PGP is mirrored in
   adjacency tear-down and according removal of such PGPs.
   Nevertheless, the underlying link-state flooding will be likely
   reacting significantly faster than a hop-by-hop redistribution and
   with that the preference for PGPs may cause intermittent black-holes.

Wondering if any progress has been made there?

Thanks.
Jeffrey


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 20:33:21 -0700
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Subject: [Rift] RIFT Hackathon IETF 102 ...
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We're putting a hackathon project @ IETF 102 for RIFT together. Mainly to
show how modelling allows to implement basic RIFT much faster than
traditional approaches. Well, we won't attempt whole RIFT I guess ;-) but
the LIE FSM implemented against public package to show mini-part interop
already & if things get ambitious we end up maybe doing some part of the
ZTP on top ...  FSM appendix is in works and will be part of -02 update ...

More details and so on under
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon ...

hope I see couple of serious protocol implementors and people willing to
learn how to become one there ...

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>We&#39;re putting a hackathon project @ IETF 102 for =
RIFT together. Mainly to show how modelling allows to implement basic RIFT =
much faster than traditional approaches. Well, we won&#39;t attempt whole R=
IFT I guess ;-) but the LIE FSM implemented against public package to show =
mini-part interop already &amp; if things get ambitious we end up maybe doi=
ng some part of the ZTP on top ...=C2=A0 FSM appendix is in works and will =
be part of -02 update ... <br><br></div><div>More details and so on under <=
a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon">https:=
//trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon</a> ... <br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>hope I see couple of serious protocol implementors and peopl=
e willing to learn how to become one there ... <br></div><div><br></div>---=
 tony <br></div>

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