Subject: [saag] NTLMSSP draft

From: Sarat G <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:40:53 +0530

Hi,
Few months back, as a part of my project I have been implemented NTLMv2 in
SMB3.0 server. I read in microsoft specs and everywhere that NTLM hashed
are strong enough. Being a post graduate in Information Security, it's easy
for me to understand that.
So, here my question is like suppose if I want suggest some things to NTLM,
can make draft of what I'm thinking of can send to this group to verify it?
Because I have few things in mind that, why can't they negotiate hash
algorithms also in NTLMSSP if they much about the use of week MD4 in
NTLMSSP.
I have been worked on this for a month, and come up with my suggestions to
make NTLM much secure.
Can some let me the know point of contact for these kind of things, I
really interested in providing a brief implementation document of
implementation of NTLMv2 in SMB server along with packet captures, so that
it will be easy for the people who implement this. Will IETF accept those
kind of drafts?
One more question, I'm very much interested in security and working in the
same domain, very well aware of SSL and TLS architectures and really
looking for some mentor who can suggests me some areas to look into in the
security so that I can contribute something in this platform.
I'm not this is the right platform to ask this question, kindly ignore this
if you feel it's irrelevant here.
Thank You.
Regards,
Sarat G

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From: Simon Josefsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:47:38 +0200

> can make draft of what I'm thinking of can send to this group to verify it?

No, that's not likely to be useful, since NTLM is not an IETF protocol.

However, NTLM is widely implemented on the Internet, and there are many
interoperable implementations.  I believe it would be useful for the
community if NTLM could be documented in the form of an Internet Draft
for historical purposes (with the proper security considerations that
essentially say you shouldn't use it).  So if you have the time the pull
the resources together and describe NTLM in a draft, that would be
useful -- and at least I would review and contribute text, and I have
implemented NTLM a couple of times.

/Simon

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From: Sarat G <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 06:43:00 +0530

Hi Simon,
Your comments are the big boost for me to start with, I'll start making the
draft, by the mid of September I'll come up with an initial draft.

Regards,
Sarat G

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From: Simon Josefsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:57:00 +0200

> draft, by the mid of September I'll come up with an initial draft.

Good luck.

Note that publication is not guaranteed -- NTLM is a Microsoft protocol,
and I'm not certain how the IETF regards documentation of somebody
else's protocol.  In the interest of the Internet community, there ought
to be interest of publication of widely deployed protocols regardless of
who created them.  Is there precedent for this?  I don't see any major
issue of documenting someone else's protocol, except for possibly
trademark concerns if you are claiming it is the real NTLM.

I assume you have seen other people's effort in this area.  It may be
useful to talk to these people before proceeding.  The protocol
documentation that I have used are:

  http://davenport.sourceforge.net/ntlm.html
  http://www.innovation.ch/personal/ronald/ntlm.html

/Simon

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From: Sarat G <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 07:15:34 +0530

Hi Simon,
I written a mail to Microsoft, waiting for their reply on this regarding
whether we can draft it or not?
Regarding the documentation links, Yes I referred them when I'm
implementing this protocol. I also written a mail to them requesting their
suggestions on drafting IETF.

Regards,
Sarat G

On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Simon Josefsson <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> >> > can make draft of what I'm thinking of can send to this group to
> verify
> >> it?
> >>