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Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:18:47 +0000 From: Roman Danyliw To: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Timing of administrative actions related to chartering Thread-Index: Adefdq4EbojJLA27QZeNlwW2P1fUEw== Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:18:47 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cert.org; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2e4d144d-5478-4925-3b21-08d96d8e1626 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN1P110MB0881: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: cert.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN1P110MB0939.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2e4d144d-5478-4925-3b21-08d96d8e1626 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2021 21:18:47.3264 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 95a9dce2-04f2-4043-995d-1ec3861911c6 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1P110MB0881 Archived-At: Subject: [scim] Timing of administrative actions related to chartering X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:18:55 -0000 Hi! All of the regular and active discussion about the charter and deliverables= is exactly what is needed as the next step to a working group. Thanks for= continuing the conversation. While this technical scoping discussion is h= appening, I wanted to share a bit of detail around the timing of the admini= strative process of chartering. =20 =3D=3D[ BLUF To get a WG chartered by IETF 112, a full charter needs to be produced and = shared on the mailing list NLT Sept 20-ish. =3D=3D[ Details The WG chartering process typically consists of the following rough steps: (1) Discuss and produce a v1 of the charter based on mailing list and BOF c= onversations <=3D=3D we are here now -- duration =3D as long as it takes -- output =3D initial charter (2) Do a call on the mailing list to elicit support for this v1 charter. I= 'll be looking for active support and volunteers to produce, review and imp= lement the documents. If there is dissent or additional recommended finess= e, this should be adjudicated or assessed as being in the rough. -- input =3D initial charter -- duration: minimum 1-2 weeks -- output =3D possibly revised charter (call it v2) (3) Bring the v2 charter to the IESG during a telechat for concurrence that= it is ready for "external review". Comments from the IESG should be adjud= icated.=20 -- input =3D v2 charter -- timing =3D has to be scheduled on the agenda of an IESG telechat with ro= ugh a week's notice -- output =3D possibly revised charter (call it v3) (4) Charter is sent for "IETF Review" where feedback and comments are elici= ted from the community. Feedback should be discussed and changes to the ch= arter may be made. -- input =3D v3 charter -- duration =3D 2 weeks -- output =3D possibly revised charter (call it v4) (5) Bring the v4 charter to the IESG again during a telechat for approval. = Final comments from the IESG should be adjudicated. -- input =3D v4 charter=20 -- timing =3D has to be scheduled on the agenda of an IESG telechat -- output =3D approved WG Future IESG telechats before IETF 112 are: -- Thursday, Sept 9 -- Thursday, Sept 23 -- Thursday, October 7 -- Thursday, October 21 Therefore, working backwards, step (5) has to happen at the latest at the O= ct-21 telechat meeting. This means that step (3) has to happen at the Oct-= 7 meeting (with something final ready by Sept 30, one week before). Thus, = step (3) has to begin NLT Sept 20-ish (to provide for 1 - 2 weeks of review= time on the scim mailing list). In the worst case where these steps do not conclude on the notional schedul= e, another BOF could be convened at IETF 112. Practically, since the a WG = can't be chartered before agenda slots are defined for IETF 112, a SCIM/SIN= S meeting will be scheduled as a BOF to reserve agenda time regardless. If= a WG is chartered by the meeting date, this BOF slot turns into a normal W= G meeting slot. Regards, Roman From nobody Thu Sep 2 10:53:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE893A19AF for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, GB_FAKE_RF_SHORT=1, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=remediant.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hmy6QMm8SdQO for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A6D3A19AA for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id i6so4175255edu.1 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=remediant.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4pGKzr9QrEQT/uZvTk9XnvZkeIKQLFOjQOQy0rkvWtE=; b=ZbjYr35FgnKY1GApl3kr422kQ1z/oKsTAK/9V2MRzHMz0kK9YVDnqbQnY2JkivZhYC YlHySqFQf254MEJlW+GnRZsto3NXMROnuCRfacGMWsr0bSVSrQAOtBlI0G0uMD44ilyW Sj9qLR4LTYzjtA90TGXHsjyt9qk+rvU/WQsbA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4pGKzr9QrEQT/uZvTk9XnvZkeIKQLFOjQOQy0rkvWtE=; b=jKWufpf/LhSEb7bt07fs39nHVEJl7Sblr7zRwwktBn9bFYiIlDG4gAYfdQ9hAPGMLc LhmrrIzNjUB34etKc3BzuhStm2QyWb8CRmrEHNQ4ljvlaEoZkknFx/qdVe/mb7usIzYf 50IILYEZ6GRs65lLeGYHG39vauR94u7fI7kdBl2nM8FFw5Wmbk8OhvFx27th3+1TA48k LIhrnspH4KNPuqvdW7WMk863HTxiUn++8iYVnsNXiR10jxSO2nO6MsXhTkXWJ5NEohPN 66NhEKtT6fdw56/bx8OTBSHIbBBvAbIiVkhzZzogZ/A1PSxKlInTSuXh0q3RDU2hAW5Q s4+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316xPkwyGMLYAc4HGdhehtnxMfOHA+RJJJZgvyhAJ9CbhOgRTIS IVNxm1SLmhoWRW2X3mmiNSTrS+9TqoXRqCHVn+jOLMOjF4FwgU5e X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzc83Yq6vuDV1sFcn8NBsAEZNbUku6y90Nir1bPJ4RLQSyFAO54YgCsJvRPr/8URqw9PoY26Y3qxVCQS/lz+6I= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d887:: with SMTP id u7mr4778187edq.366.1630605209915; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 10:53:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Paul Lanzi Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:53:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: scim@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e647c05cb06dca7" Archived-At: Subject: [scim] Keeping track of links - find them all here: https://linktr.ee/scimwg X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 17:53:38 -0000 --0000000000004e647c05cb06dca7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all -- I was starting to lose track of all of the great tools we're using to collaborate, so I took the liberty of creating a linktree (kind of like a webring, for those of us old enough to remember what that was!). I'll do my best to keep this link: https://linktr.ee/scimwg Updated with links to the latest important docs and tools. I do appreciate the irony of the solution to "too many links" being... another link. Feel free to email me directly (not to the group list, please) if you have any suggestions for modifications. Thanks, --Paul *Paul Lanzi* | Co-Founder and COO Remediant, Inc. Two Embarcadero Ctr, Floor 8 | San Francisco, CA 94111 paul@remediant.com =E1=90=A7 --0000000000004e647c05cb06dca7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all --

I was starting to lose tra= ck of all of the great tools we're using to collaborate, so I took the = liberty=C2=A0of creating a linktree (kind of like a webring, for those of u= s old enough to remember what that was!).

I'll= do my best to keep this link:

= Updated with links to the latest important docs and tools. I do appreciate = the irony of the solution to "too many links" being... another li= nk. Feel free to email me directly (not to the group list, please) if you h= ave any suggestions for modifications.

Thanks,

--Paul


Paul Lanzi=C2=A0| Co-Founder and COO=C2= =A0

Remediant, Inc.

Two Embarcadero Ctr, Floo= r 8 | San Francisco,=C2=A0CA 94111

paul@remediant.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0


<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"= Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);line-height:14pt">

3D""=E1=90=A7
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=?Windows-1252?Q?hC8HUQ35Tf0NIImxhGOw6yp9wEZ3f5yyJVd8OmVC8+w5y69TYWNX7G65?= =?Windows-1252?Q?TznwT/nFNfYdp3lT6wyp6Z1kAm+Hx1ex5vNe4ldj3j6sQ7OPe6LYtAq8?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Gd4tGsn5JsapP/LLPAbtK/5lO7k1ws2fgJMQxpBaAhhkujW1Kp8CMW4z?= =?Windows-1252?Q?gz+CXI5wfWh1p+uUVtrwCdUysZ1fpdUKLVS6Ucrv9BI2HEtweq65QSTd?= =?Windows-1252?Q?XHgBeFTcf3THwagkoGPwBsSD2P3/ACsyQvM=3D?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR00MB08874CB4D749BEC309AC5FCDF6D49BYAPR00MB0887namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR00MB0887.namprd00.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3457c8b1-423a-4624-713f-08d972a29dba X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Sep 2021 08:28:20.4276 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5S9dMawEyM2LrB8Apv4rGTvd5SBSgVijJ1KjCiM1Y2xzdtcd5xXx+E5PtFZHa940VjWskl8TzP2DScJb3uOgHQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR00MB1040 Archived-At: Subject: [scim] Charter finalization - feedback requested on work items X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:28:29 -0000 --_000_BYAPR00MB08874CB4D749BEC309AC5FCDF6D49BYAPR00MB0887namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, we have arrived at some serious candidates for items in our Working= Group Charter final proposal. We need you now to give us your explicit fe= edback on whether these are the right items. What I think we are looking fo= r is direct statements around which of these items you are willing to suppo= rt as chartered work items, but Nancy may have more explicit guidance on ho= w to give feedback. I'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts on these 7 items of work. Cheers, Pam * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 * Tentative goal: Supplemental use case document (additive vs. repla= cing) * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns * Pull vs. Push based use cases * Events and signals use cases * Deletion use cases * Revision of RFC 7643/44 * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols= such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed (need to de= termine if this should be a core change or if it is an extension) * Evaluate updates to existing RFCs - are they needed? * Evolution of the externalid usage * Support for synchronization-related goals between domains * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [dra= ft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] (note: ) * Incremental approaches to synchronization * Support for deletion-related goals * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=92t allow Deletes (Soft = Deletes) - based on draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00 * Support for advanced automation scenarios * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials * Attribute mapping * Per-attribute schema negotiation * Specific Schema Proposals * Schema for exchanging HR information * Schema for exchanging Enterprise group information * Schema for Privileged Access Management, based on draft-grizzle-sc= im-pam-ext-01 * Profiling SCIM for common implementation patterns, possibly through B= CP mechanism * Working in conjunction with usecases/ concepts doc * One input: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wahl-scim-p= rofile-00 * Guidance around bulk import, incremental sync, and other synchroni= zation goals * Guidance around v-tags and HTTP pre-conditions (RC 7232) --_000_BYAPR00MB08874CB4D749BEC309AC5FCDF6D49BYAPR00MB0887namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all, we have arrived at some seri= ous candidates for items in our Working Group Charter final proposal. = We need you now to give us your explicit feedback on whether these are the right items. What I think we are looking for is d= irect statements around which of these items you are willing to support as = chartered work items, but Nancy may have more explicit guidance on how to g= ive feedback.

I'm looking forward to everyone's th= oughts on these 7 items of work.  

Cheers,

Pam


  • Revision of the informational RFC 7642
    • Tentative goal: Supplemental use case doc= ument (additive vs. replacing)
    • Focus on Use cases and implementation pat= terns
      • Pull vs. Push based use cases
        • =
      • Events and signals use cases
        • <= li style=3D"color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-= serif;background-color:white;margin:0px;box-sizing:border-box"> Deletion use cases
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44
    • Profiling SCIM relationships with other i= dentity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals= , and Fastfed (need to determine if this should be a core change or if it is an extension)
    • Evaluate updates to existing RFCs - are t= hey needed?
    • Evolution of the externalid usage<= /li>
  • Support for synchronization-related goals= between domains
    • Handling returning large result sets thro= ugh paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] (note: )
      • Incremental approaches to synchronization=
  • Support for deletion-related goals=
  • Support for advanced automation scenarios=
    • Discovery and negotiation of client crede= ntials
    • Attribute mapping
    • Per-attribute schema negotiation
  • Specific Schema Proposals
      • Schema for exchanging HR information
      • Schema for exchanging Enterprise group in= formation
      • Schema for Privileged Access Management, = based on draft-grizzle-scim-pam-ext-01
    • Profiling SCIM for common implementation = patterns, possibly through BCP mechanism

 


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y15mr329064pgc.446.1631151239686; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (node-1w7jr9qrfoxx9sgsmvqsnpbrb.ipv6.telus.net. [2001:569:7a71:1d00:9503:1143:9e20:cec7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d4sm139748pfv.21.2021.09.08.18.33.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Hunt Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8E887732-5994-4BA7-9B63-2790A3922F2B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:33:58 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> Cc: "scim@ietf.org" To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 01:34:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8E887732-5994-4BA7-9B63-2790A3922F2B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Nancy, Thanks for putting this together. For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization = and profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process = after some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive = (they may be fairly out of date!): * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim = (needs to be = updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - = https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with = synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited = number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large = groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing = the searching of MVAs. As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not = something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an = anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best = practices or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach = from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. = Unfortunately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case. =20 Phil Hunt @independentid phil.hunt@independentid.com > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = wrote: >=20 > Hello SCIM participants, > =20 > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and = discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points = raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.=20 > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please = provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=20 > =20 > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you = are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are = concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > =20 > Charter >=20 > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification = is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain = scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing = adoption. >=20 > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC = series 7642 , 7643 = , 7644 = , through the Internet = Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the = SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base = schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based = upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and = incorporate current security and privacy best practices. >=20 > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema = RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as = extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for = standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability = in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional = Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work: >=20 > Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > Pull vs. Push based use cases > Events and signals use cases > Deletion use cases > New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols = such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between = domains focused on: > Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on = [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > Incremental approaches to synchronization > Support for deletion-related goals including: > Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes = (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > Attribute mapping > Per-attribute schema negotiation > Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise = group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam = as a = base) > =20 > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > =20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim = --Apple-Mail=_8E887732-5994-4BA7-9B63-2790A3922F2B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Nancy,

Thanks for putting this together.

For this go around my interest lies = mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to = provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on = cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of = date!):

* SCIM = Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to = reflect the work we did in RFC8417)
* OpenId = Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html

Regarding = the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with = synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited = number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large = groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing = the searching of MVAs.

As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization = approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO = this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add = text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a = great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, = and cost.

That = said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. = Unfortunately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case.
  



On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello SCIM participants,
 
After some = virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, = there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the = IETF 111 SINS session. 
This is a call for support of the charter defined below, = please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 
 
As you respond in = support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to = produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.
Otherwise, do provide feedback in = the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter = below:
 

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity = Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that = makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was = last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for = this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The = group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as = Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for = consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing = RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current = security and privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the = requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also = consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found = broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles = and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working = group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes = of the following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC = 7642 will:
    • Focus on Use cases and = implementation patterns
      • Pull vs. Push based use cases
      • Events and signals use cases
      • Deletion use cases
    • New use cases may be added to the = revised RFC
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will = include:
    • Profiling SCIM = relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, = OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
    • Updates to the evolution of the = externalid usage
  • Document SCIM support for = synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
    • Handling returning large result sets through paging, = based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
    • Incremental approaches to = synchronization
  • Support for deletion-related goals = including:
    • Handling Deletes in SCIM = Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on = [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
  • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
    • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
    • Attribute mapping
    • Per-attribute schema negotiation
  • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, = Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)
 
Best, Nancy (as = one of the BoF chairs)
 
_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

= --Apple-Mail=_8E887732-5994-4BA7-9B63-2790A3922F2B-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:18:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CB03A13BD for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQvESML9MMxr for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [66.220.13.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE5FE3A13B2 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H51MW103YzMNXD; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:18:47 +0000 (UTC) To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "scim@ietf.org" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:18:46 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B6FC53DB9D3042B04CCC5A8C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:18:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B6FC53DB9D3042B04CCC5A8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I support this charter.  I will be happy to help produce and review documents and provide use cases. I can't do any implementations right now though I may be able to borrow Phil's sample implementation! Danny On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please > provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you > are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are > concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities > in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and > has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC > series 7642 , 7643 > , 7644 > , through the Internet > Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for > the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and > base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will > be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, > and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema > RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as > extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for > standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for > interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will > develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the > following work: > > * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > o Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > + Pull vs. Push based use cases > + Events and signals use cases > + Deletion use cases > o New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > o Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, > and Fastfed > o Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > o Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > o Incremental approaches to synchronization > * Support for deletion-related goals including: > o Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes > (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > o Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > o Attribute mapping > o Per-attribute schema negotiation > * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, > Enterprise group and privileged access management (using > draft-grizzle-scim-pam >  as > a base) > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------B6FC53DB9D3042B04CCC5A8C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I support this charter.  I will be happy to help produce and review documents and provide use cases. I can't do any implementations right now though I may be able to borrow Phil's sample implementation!

Danny

On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

Hello SCIM participants,

 

After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

 

As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

 

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
    • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
      • Pull vs. Push based use cases
      • Events and signals use cases
      • Deletion use cases
    • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
    • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
    • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
  • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
    • Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
    • Incremental approaches to synchronization
  • Support for deletion-related goals including:
    • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
  • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
    • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
    • Attribute mapping
    • Per-attribute schema negotiation
  • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

 

Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

 


_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
--------------B6FC53DB9D3042B04CCC5A8C-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:58:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietf.org Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7B93A1608; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:58:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: barryleiba@gmail.com, rdd@cert.org, scim@ietf.org, sins-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163119950136.27261.12867517150414132042@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:58:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [scim] sins - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:58:22 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Barry Leiba, a Chair of the sins working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: SCIM Industry Next Steps Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Barry Leiba Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 20 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: rats, teep, tls, quic, oauth, add, masque, calext cbor emailcore extra gendispatch iabopen jmap shmoo People who must be present: Barry Leiba Nancy Cam-Winget Roman Danyliw Morteza Ansari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 10 10:17:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930D03A0EC7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:17:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqwCyuHfYyiy for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:205::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89D283A0EC6 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5jGq5fK5zMNXD; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:17:07 +0000 (UTC) To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "scim@ietf.org" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:17:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E38D7F826F11798934A9446A" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:17:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E38D7F826F11798934A9446A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just to make it clear to everyone on this list, if you wish to move this charter forward to start/restart an actual working group it needs to be done here on the mailing list. Pam's bi-weekly meeting is not the place for it. This is an IETF requirement especially as not everyone can attend meetings. So far only Phil and I have responded on the mailing list to the proposed charter, so it's now up to everyone else to indicate their interest. Thanks, Danny On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please > provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you > are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are > concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities > in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and > has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC > series 7642 , 7643 > , 7644 > , through the Internet > Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for > the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and > base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will > be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, > and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema > RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as > extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for > standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for > interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will > develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the > following work: > > * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > o Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > + Pull vs. Push based use cases > + Events and signals use cases > + Deletion use cases > o New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > o Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, > and Fastfed > o Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > o Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > o Incremental approaches to synchronization > * Support for deletion-related goals including: > o Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes > (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > o Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > o Attribute mapping > o Per-attribute schema negotiation > * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, > Enterprise group and privileged access management (using > draft-grizzle-scim-pam >  as > a base) > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------E38D7F826F11798934A9446A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Just to make it clear to everyone on this list, if you wish to move this charter forward to start/restart an actual working group it needs to be done here on the mailing list. Pam's bi-weekly meeting is not the place for it. This is an IETF requirement especially as not everyone can attend meetings. So far only Phil and I have responded on the mailing list to the proposed charter, so it's now up to everyone else to indicate their interest.

Thanks,

Danny

On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

Hello SCIM participants,

 

After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

 

As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

 

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
    • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
      • Pull vs. Push based use cases
      • Events and signals use cases
      • Deletion use cases
    • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
    • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
    • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
  • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
    • Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
    • Incremental approaches to synchronization
  • Support for deletion-related goals including:
    • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
  • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
    • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
    • Attribute mapping
    • Per-attribute schema negotiation
  • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

 

Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

 


_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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15.20.4500.016; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:07:36 +0000 From: Mike Kiser To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Thread-Index: AQHXpRCytxZmiLK1g0qdr9XxTq+BzqudtFdB Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:07:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 1e9d7f95-03a2-8f36-2322-2cf2e1003f8c authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sailpoint.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 08113f74-a771-4dec-28ec-08d97496a241 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR04MB0321: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 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9c848b2a-49ba-4c39-9749-118d06717a84 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: PgJ9TJW2Z+CrxG6wZCCK+9pEQ+s3ONr5X7Hh+qKKWs+Ze2ujzKgJe1EMpzZyRHnkALid4V0CAeQeL5kFG8v5w72Xsq9RLOFjw/CBwORd61s= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR04MB0321 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 7D1dWvCdFuYIbyPwBcSxZCCovwB0JAHU X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 7D1dWvCdFuYIbyPwBcSxZCCovwB0JAHU X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-10_08,2021-09-09_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109030001 definitions=main-2109100113 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:07:45 -0000 --_000_MWHPR04MB126490567F4408E3981678908CD69MWHPR04MB1264namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nancy - Excellent work. In favor of this charter, willing to work on revising for fastfed / share= d events/signals, and HR / PAM extension (a la Grizzle). Looking forward to moving SCIM further down the line. -Mike ________________________________ From: scim on behalf of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)= Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 19:21 To: scim@ietf.org Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Hello SCIM participants, After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussi= on, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the= IETF 111 SINS session. This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide you= r response by Sept. 24, 2021. As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are w= illing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or = issues you see with the charter below: Charter The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an = HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenario= s easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7= 642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard proc= ess. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirement= s as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for = consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs= , errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and= privacy best practices. In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, th= e group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM = that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This incl= udes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The= working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outc= omes of the following work: * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns * Pull vs. Push based use cases * Events and signals use cases * Deletion use cases * New use cases may be added to the revised RFC * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols= such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed * Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domai= ns focused on: * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [dra= ft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] * Incremental approaches to synchronization * Support for deletion-related goals including: * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=92t allow Deletes (Soft = Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials * Attribute mapping * Per-attribute schema negotiation * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise g= roup and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base) Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) --_000_MWHPR04MB126490567F4408E3981678908CD69MWHPR04MB1264namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nancy - 

 Excellent work.

  In favor of this charter, willing to work on revising for fastfed / = shared events/signals, and HR / PAM extension (a la Grizzle).

  Looking forward to moving SCIM further down the line.

 -Mike
From: scim <scim-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 19:21
To: scim@ietf.org <scim@ietf.org>
Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter
 

Hello SCIM partic= ipants,

 

After some virtua= l meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a ne= w proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS se= ssion. 

This is a call fo= r support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sep= t. 24, 2021. 

 

As you respond in= support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce= , review and/or implement the resulting documents.

Otherwise, do pro= vide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see wi= th the charter below:

 

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity Man= agement (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes mana= ging identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to sh= epherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644= , through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the requirements= , protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional sp= ecifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes prof= iles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working = group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of t= he following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
    • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals= between domains focused on:
        • Support for deletion-related goals including:
          • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
            • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR= , Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draf= t-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

             

            Best, Nancy (as o= ne of the BoF chairs)

             

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boundary="000000000000da076605cbaa50ad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:54:14 -0000 --000000000000da076605cbaa50ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also support this charter and I'm willing to help produce and review the resulting documents On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 1:07 PM Mike Kiser wrote: > Nancy - > > Excellent work. > > In favor of this charter, willing to work on revising for fastfed / > shared events/signals, and HR / PAM extension (a la Grizzle). > > Looking forward to moving SCIM further down the line. > > -Mike > ------------------------------ > *From:* scim on behalf of Nancy Cam-Winget > (ncamwing) > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 19:21 > *To:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > > Hello SCIM participants, > > > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide > your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are > willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns o= r > issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n > HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain > scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing > adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series > 7642 > > , 7643 > > , 7644 > , > through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised > specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SC= IM > protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This > work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty > feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, > the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to > SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. Th= is > includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenario= s. > The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on > outcomes of the following work: > > - Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > - Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > - Pull vs. Push based use cases > - Events and signals use cases > - Deletion use cases > - New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > - Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > - Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fa= stfed > - Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > - Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > - Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > - Incremental approaches to synchronization > - Support for deletion-related goals including: > - Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes= (Soft > Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > - Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > - Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > - Attribute mapping > - Per-attribute schema negotiation > - Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise > group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam > as > a base) > > > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --=20 Erik Gustavson erikgustavson@google.com Engineering Manager - Google C&C Core 650-451-1372 --000000000000da076605cbaa50ad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also support this charter and=C2=A0I'm willing to he= lp produce and review the resulting documents

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 1:07 P= M Mike Kiser <mike.kiser=3D40sailpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Nancy -=C2=A0

=C2=A0Excellent work.

=C2=A0 In favor of this charter, willing to work on revising for fastfed / = shared events/signals, and HR / PAM extension (a la Grizzle).

=C2=A0 Looking forward to moving SCIM further down the line.

=C2=A0-Mike
Fro= m: scim <= scim-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <= ncamwing=3D= 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 19:21
To: scim@ietf.org= <scim@ietf.org>
Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter
=C2=A0

Hello SCIM participants,

=C2=A0

After some virtual meetings (thank you Pa= m for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that = addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.=C2=A0

This is a call for support of the charter= defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As you respond in support for the charter= , please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implemen= t the resulting documents.

Otherwise, do provide feedback in the tim= e window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

=C2=A0

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity M= anagement (SCIM) specification=C2=A0is an HTTP-based protocol that makes ma= naging identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to = shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series=C2=A07642,=C2=A07643<= /a>,=C2=A07644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the requiremen= ts, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional = specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes prof= iles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working = group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of t= he following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
    • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals be= tween domains focused on:
      • Support for deletion-related goals including:
        • <= ul type=3D"circle">
      • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:<= /li>
        • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, E= nterprise group and privileged access management (using=C2=A0draft-grizzle-scim-pam=C2=A0as a base)

        =C2=A0

        Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

        =C2=A0

_______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


--

<= col width=3D"539">

=

erikgustavson@google.com

Engineering Manager - Google C&C C= ore

650-451-1372

<= div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-left:0pt">
<= /div> --000000000000da076605cbaa50ad-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 14:13:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451783A1BEE for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=zscaler.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SvvhZXihhcry for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52C623A1BE7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id v1so1943947plo.10 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zscaler.com; s=google; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=VHDaJQtMEJjiB+eA4jHZAy6aD3c2k9xafc+A9kw32E4=; b=cCgpKpxbz6ps1Y+lCamj31yTk00gcWHgQ37Ouc/+JjqnXRZhrjjxYAWy8BgivnNyej iAfloCaDdw57E8TvJDdjnXzfAzwPGS/N1UoCyXMvXR3Psvunx1JMgKTzQG9eoIL3OIPs zJVUz0i/cu5cYP5xCPE5/WK00nksBJb5rmBKU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=VHDaJQtMEJjiB+eA4jHZAy6aD3c2k9xafc+A9kw32E4=; b=VUb/IdW/w6b+7ER4js56oXQJUuCHOpcR0nypt1bcn+JUTRInThOE8msWMJPJfPZEtr ymrmMkXWwn1ZRZaipVztXfntvngCxi00tRK36yJlSMBjleXwQQllD6+P57aTWbNSSU4Q shtnHellurfNThakoNM8T1Pd2Oym9bhFw1Krpnzk3+2Yh/PDiIR5r2vKERne5rDhUZZ/ 1d6RdQ15eQL0EU1wXdV4lWwPPyOgu5vvO7TqyVFFlGUuLaLW7DmO9ylTDv8uf1yTfDmU rjWO371wRfPxviSBJqb3IRYyPjFD6dm9nxUjIKPLL+MyNob85rf77UKVe8EzzRuCQbL6 ql6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531S5lIrlw0aM47HZ02VvEZDQ+A0eI/cTKsmWcy84xNKC8jRNxu4 72XS4M61TtE9OAjzQU3adg773zB4HrBmpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynkaPBzX7KG2/TYpuG9drgFJYtfaokVJPabpjXGyQ1ElyP4DZLzGskZSuQYAjKwx32yzRIMQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ab90:: with SMTP id n16mr11523281pjq.157.1631308396356; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alices-mbp.localdomain (d207-216-177-38.bchsia.telus.net. [207.216.177.38]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k4sm6214038pga.92.2021.09.10.14.13.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Alice Wang Message-Id: <3D8921A4-3EB5-4516-8F93-95C0771115AF@zscaler.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4937EAAF-0D81-445D-9997-899D9A3B19C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:13:15 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> Cc: "scim@ietf.org" To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.40.0.2.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] =?utf-8?b?W+KaoO+4j10gIENhbGwgZm9yIHN1cHBvcnQgb24gcHJv?= =?utf-8?q?posed_SCIM/SINS_=28re=29charter?= X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:13:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4937EAAF-0D81-445D-9997-899D9A3B19C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I support this charter. I could help to review the document and may = also work on some sample implementation if needed. Thanks Alice > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = wrote: >=20 > Hello SCIM participants, > =20 > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and = discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points = raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.=20 > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please = provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=20 > =20 > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you = are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are = concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > =20 > Charter >=20 > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification = is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain = scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing = adoption. >=20 > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC = series 7642 , 7643 = , 7644 = , through the Internet = Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the = SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base = schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based = upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and = incorporate current security and privacy best practices. >=20 > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema = RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as = extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for = standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability = in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional = Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work: >=20 > Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > Pull vs. Push based use cases > Events and signals use cases > Deletion use cases > New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols = such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between = domains focused on: > Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on = [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > Incremental approaches to synchronization > Support for deletion-related goals including: > Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes = (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > Attribute mapping > Per-attribute schema negotiation > Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise = group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam = as a = base) > =20 > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > =20 > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim = --Apple-Mail=_4937EAAF-0D81-445D-9997-899D9A3B19C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I support this charter.  I = could help to review the document and may also work on some = sample implementation if needed.

Thanks

Alice



On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello SCIM participants,
 
After some = virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, = there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the = IETF 111 SINS session. 
This is a call for support of the charter defined below, = please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 
 
As you respond in = support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to = produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.
Otherwise, do provide feedback in = the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter = below:
 

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity = Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that = makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was = last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, = currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The = group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as = Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for = consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing = RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current = security and privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the = requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also = consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found = broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles = and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working = group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes = of the following work:

  • Revision of the informational RFC = 7642 will:
    • Focus on = Use cases and implementation patterns
    • Pull vs. Push based use cases
    • Events and signals use cases
    • Deletion use cases
  • New use cases may be added to the = revised RFC
  • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will = include:
    • Profiling = SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth = 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
    • Updates to the evolution of the = externalid usage
  • Document SCIM support for = synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
    • Handling returning large result sets = through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
    • Incremental approaches to = synchronization
  • Support for deletion-related goals = including:
    • Handling = Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) = - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
  • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
    • Discovery and negotiation of client = credentials
    • Attribute = mapping
    • Per-attribute schema negotiation
  • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, = Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)
    •  
    Best, Nancy (as = one of the BoF chairs)
     
    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

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boundary="_000_MWHPR19MB0957835CAE0B5512E5D63FE0E1D69MWHPR19MB0957namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oneidentity.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MWHPR19MB0957.namprd19.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ba9a5a13-aed2-42e3-6edc-08d974afc22a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2021 23:07:27.4495 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 91c369b5-1c9e-439c-989c-1867ec606603 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dWVMfBESzqMTnXZKqHomN/CSyHE7Ygju4H4iTyQM5n7kuWu6E9ESzGDPtMKs1giIvucwoeoQuvvdcLisksl1ig== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR19MB1549 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 23:07:38 -0000 --_000_MWHPR19MB0957835CAE0B5512E5D63FE0E1D69MWHPR19MB0957namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support this charter. I am willing to work on documentation and create i= mplementations of: * Handling returning large result sets through paging * Incremental approaches to synchronization * privileged access management -- Matt Peterson Distinguished Engineer One Identity, Inc From: scim On Behalf Of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 6:22 PM To: scim@ietf.org Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not fol= low guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sen= der and know the content is safe. Hello SCIM participants, After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussi= on, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the= IETF 111 SINS session. This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide you= r response by Sept. 24, 2021. As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are w= illing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or = issues you see with the charter below: Charter The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an = HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenario= s easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7= 642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process.= The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as= Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for cons= ideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, er= rata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and pri= vacy best practices. In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, th= e group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM = that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This incl= udes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The= working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outc= omes of the following work: * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns * Pull vs. Push based use cases * Events and signals use cases * Deletion use cases * New use cases may be added to the revised RFC * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols= such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed * Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domai= ns focused on: * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [dra= ft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] * Incremental approaches to synchronization * Support for deletion-related goals including: * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don't allow Deletes (Soft De= letes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials * Attribute mapping * Per-attribute schema negotiation * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise g= roup and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base) Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) --_000_MWHPR19MB0957835CAE0B5512E5D63FE0E1D69MWHPR19MB0957namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I support this char= ter.  I am willing to work on documentation and create implementations= of:

    • Handling returning large result sets= through paging
    • Incremental approaches to synchronization
    • privileged access management

     

    --

    Matt Peterson<= /o:p>

    Distinguished Engin= eer

    One Identity, Inc

     

    From:= scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
    Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 6:22 PM
    To: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#9C6500">CAUTION: This email originated from outside of t= he organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know = the content is safe.

     

    Hello SCIM particip= ants,

     

    After some virtual = meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new = proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS sess= ion. 

    This is a call for = support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept.= 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in s= upport for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, = review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provi= de feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with= the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity = Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes m= anaging identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.<= /span>

    One goal for this working group is to= shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requireme= nts, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional= specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes prof= iles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working = group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of t= he following work:

    • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      • <= /ul>
        • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
          • Pull vs. Push based use cases
          • Events and signals use cases
          • Deletion use cases
        • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
          • =
      • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
        • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols s= uch as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
        • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
      • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between doma= ins focused on:
        • Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft= -hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
        • Incremental approaches to synchronization
        • Support for deletion-related goals including:
          • =
          • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Sof= t Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]<= /li>
        • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:=
          • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
          • Attribute mapping
          • Per-attribute schema negotiation
        • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise = group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam = ;as a base)

         

        Best, Nancy (as one= of the BoF chairs)

         

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port 10024) with ESMTP id vhV6sI8TL5D8 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [66.220.13.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AAE33A25BF for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5tRs163dzMNH8; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:10:33 +0000 (UTC) To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Phil Hunt Cc: "scim@ietf.org" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:10:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B1680294C474A48F6CFB3492" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:10:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B1680294C474A48F6CFB3492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary. Danny On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine proposed > changes to the charter text…..I suspect there might have been a > translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than > paging? > > If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally > agreement for the updates too. > > Best, Nancy > > *From: *Phil Hunt > *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM > *To: *ncamwing > *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > Nancy, > > Thanks for putting this together. > > For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and > Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts > for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts > already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!): > > * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim >   (needs to be > updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) > > * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - > https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html > > > Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with > synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited > number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as > large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface > allowing the searching of MVAs. > > As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not > something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an > anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best > practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the > perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. > > That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. > Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case. > > Phil Hunt > > @independentid > > phil.hunt@independentid.com > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > > wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the > points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please > provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if > you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting > documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are > concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing > identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last > published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC > series 7642 , 7643 > , 7644 > , through the > Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised > specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for > the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a > Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata > and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and > privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema > RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as > extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready > for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for > interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will > develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the > following work: > > * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > > o Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > > + Pull vs. Push based use cases > + Events and signals use cases > + Deletion use cases > > o New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > > * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > > o Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared > Signals, and Fastfed > o Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > > * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals > between domains focused on: > > o Handling returning large result sets through paging, based > on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > o Incremental approaches to synchronization > > * Support for deletion-related goals including: > > o Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes > (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > > * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > > o Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > o Attribute mapping > o Per-attribute schema negotiation > > * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, > Enterprise group and privileged access management (using > draft-grizzle-scim-pam >  as > a base) > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------B1680294C474A48F6CFB3492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case.

      

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid

     

     



    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        • Pull vs. Push based use cases
        • Events and signals use cases
        • Deletion use cases
      • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      • Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      • Incremental approaches to synchronization
    • Support for deletion-related goals including:
      • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      • Attribute mapping
      • Per-attribute schema negotiation
    • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

     

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

     

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     


    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:02:28 +0000 From: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" To: Danny Mayer , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Phil Hunt CC: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Thread-Index: AQHXpRCytxZmiLK1g0qdr9XxTq+Bzqua62MAgAKVNgCAAHgkAIAEHP7A Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:02:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: pdmconsulting.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;pdmconsulting.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oneidentity.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 30cc7f59-aeda-4116-eccb-08d976c780f0 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CO1PR19MB4840: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_MWHPR19MB0957B822C7CE28EF366EAFA7E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oneidentity.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MWHPR19MB0957.namprd19.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 30cc7f59-aeda-4116-eccb-08d976c780f0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2021 15:02:28.2208 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 91c369b5-1c9e-439c-989c-1867ec606603 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eLC+6UKsAYL59BCurYeeNyWusbuU9gSPlLya0X/ewss4bWThlnE9uDZDdxRWMAgrwovz6XJQDZxfhIhDj9/c6A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO1PR19MB4840 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:02:38 -0000 --_000_MWHPR19MB0957B822C7CE28EF366EAFA7E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danny, One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use = cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). I'm eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you posting = to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you'd need pagination fo= r? Thanks! From: scim On Behalf Of Danny Mayer Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; Ph= il Hunt Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not fol= low guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sen= der and know the content is safe. Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization= MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagin= ation may be necessary. Danny On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: Thanks for the feedback Phil. I'm trying to determine proposed changes to = the charter text.....I suspect there might have been a translation issue fo= r synchronization being more about pagination than paging? If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement= for the updates too. Best, Nancy From: Phil Hunt Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM To: ncamwing Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Nancy, Thanks for putting this together. For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization an= d profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after = some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may b= e fairly out of date!): * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RF= C8417) * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect= -scim-profile-1_0.html Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synchroni= zation and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of val= ues in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most ty= pical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of M= VAs. As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not somet= hing we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-patt= ern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewh= ere as to why this isn't a great approach from the perspective of security,= DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortuna= tely they didn't elaborate on a use case. Phil Hunt @independentid phil.hunt@independentid.com On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > wrote: Hello SCIM participants, After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussi= on, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the= IETF 111 SINS session. This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide you= r response by Sept. 24, 2021. As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are w= illing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or = issues you see with the charter below: Charter The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an = HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenario= s easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7= 642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The gro= up will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informa= tional, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideratio= n as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and= interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy bes= t practices. In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, th= e group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM = that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This incl= udes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The= working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outc= omes of the following work: 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns * Pull vs. Push based use cases * Events and signals use cases * Deletion use cases * New use cases may be added to the revised RFC 1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols= such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed * Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage 1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domai= ns focused on: * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [dra= ft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] * Incremental approaches to synchronization 1. Support for deletion-related goals including: * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don't allow Deletes (Soft De= letes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] 1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials * Attribute mapping * Per-attribute schema negotiation 1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise g= roup and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base) Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --_000_MWHPR19MB0957B822C7CE28EF366EAFA7E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Danny,

     

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand w= hat the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to = be synchronized). 

     

    I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination= use cases.  Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are th= inking of you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! 

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.iet= f.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)chart= er

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#9C6500">CAUTION: This email originated from outside of t= he organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know = the content is safe.

     

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronizat= ion MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pa= gination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrot= e:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying= to determine proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there = might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pa= gination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be hel= pful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From= : Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.= com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisc= o.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <= a href=3D"mailto:scim@ietf.org"> <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)chart= er

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events= and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated dr= afts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts a= lready in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim=   (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has = nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to = pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations s= uch as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.=

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronizatio= n approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO thi= s appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in = the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, t= imeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted sta= teful paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case.=

      

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid

     =

     




    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwi= ng) <ncamwing= =3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosti= ng these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses t= he points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

    This is a call for support of the charter defined be= low, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please al= so specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resul= ting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if= there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Id= entity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that = makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last p= ublished in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working grou= p is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the re= quirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider add= itional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption= and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scen= arios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs bas= ed on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 wil= l:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patt= erns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases<= /o:p>
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
          4. <= /ol>
        1. New use cases may be added to the revised = RFC
      1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
        1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other id= entity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals,= and Fastfed
        2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid= usage
      1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-= related goals between domains focused on:
        1. Handling returning large result sets throu= gh paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
          2. Incremental approaches to synchronization<= /span>
      1. Support for deletion-related goals includi= ng:
        1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don&= #8217;t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-del= ete-00]
      1. Support for advanced automation scenarios = such as:
        1. Discovery and negotiation of client creden= tials
        2. Attribute mapping
          3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
      1. Enhance the existing schema to support exc= hanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using&nbs= p;draft-gr= izzle-scim-pam as a base)

       

      Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

       

      _______________________________________________ scim mailing list
      scim@ietf.org
      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=

     



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    --_000_MWHPR19MB0957B822C7CE28EF366EAFA7E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 13 13:27:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602F93A0A88 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:27:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vfvO83U4me7 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:205::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 900943A0A90 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H7dLk6Tn5zMNXJ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:27:10 +0000 (UTC) To: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Phil Hunt Cc: "scim@ietf.org" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: <2b1c1794-137f-6fd7-eb84-9d1715ef7413@pdmconsulting.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:27:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------80A847D85A0D640DEBFA2110" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:27:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------80A847D85A0D640DEBFA2110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Matt, Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs. Danny On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: > > Danny, > > One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination > use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). > > Im eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you > posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of youd need > pagination for? Thanks! > > *From:* scim *On Behalf Of * Danny Mayer > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM > *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > ; Phil Hunt > > *Cc:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do > not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. > Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are > other reasons why pagination may be necessary. > > Danny > > On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback Phil. Im trying to determine proposed > changes to the charter text..I suspect there might have been a > translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination > than paging? > > If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally > agreement for the updates too. > > Best, Nancy > > *From: *Phil Hunt > > *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM > *To: *ncamwing > *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS > (re)charter > > Nancy, > > Thanks for putting this together. > > For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and > Synchronization and profiles. I am willing to provide updated > drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases. > Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!): > > * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim > > (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) > > * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - > https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html > > > Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with > synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a > limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations > such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user > interface allowing the searching of MVAs. > > As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is > not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this > appraoch an anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to add text > in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isnt a great > approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, > and cost. > > That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. > Unfortunately they didnt elaborate on a use case. > > Phil Hunt > > @independentid > > phil.hunt@independentid.com > > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > > wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) > and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses > the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, > please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify > if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the > resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are > concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specificationis an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing > identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last > published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently > RFC series 7642 > , > 7643 > , > 7644 > , > through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver > revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as > Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema > suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be > based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty > feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best > practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base > schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional > specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad > adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes > profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional > scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed > Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work: > > 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > > 1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > > 1. Pull vs. Push based use cases > 2. Events and signals use cases > 3. Deletion use cases > > 2. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > > 2. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > > 1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other > identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID > Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > 2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > > 3. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals > between domains focused on: > > 1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, > based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > 2. Incremental approaches to synchronization > > 4. Support for deletion-related goals including: > > 1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that dont allow > Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on > [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > > 5. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > > 1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > 2. Attribute mapping > 3. Per-attribute schema negotiation > > 6. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, > Enterprise group and privileged access management (using > draft-grizzle-scim-pam > as > a base) > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > scim mailing list > > scim@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------80A847D85A0D640DEBFA2110 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).

    Im eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of youd need pagination for? Thanks!

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil. Im trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text..I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

    Best, Nancy

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    Nancy,

    Thanks for putting this together.

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

    * SCIM Events -draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isnt a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didnt elaborate on a use case.

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid




    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello SCIM participants,

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specificationis an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series7642,7643,7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that dont allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (usingdraft-grizzle-scim-pamas a base)

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    --------------80A847D85A0D640DEBFA2110-- From nobody Mon Sep 13 14:41:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189163A1135 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rWYclhzV3dV5 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 085EE3A1137 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id c6so23483541ybm.10 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=erYULW3dgW2f4DGAtgjucf0KrMSZojytvGZarcqNjGk=; b=cmUcVjkREQjq8emkVGop++wcLMHvU+S11DA6Bv1MggPbxjSmH98qx2OoDAhh6PAoQA o/kheOURpT+0ZtxbiG+AfDu04HcIj4M693C2wej50/pMhvBMwHy1FWpv3ocdBnM+IbZO 2lg6E66OTBfWIVgdjLGRZBAjWpj0xGvASf7VCIXFR65wFmb9lz8Yr/F33K0DZMbaqakA UGAmnhcJ9/12fGnnrQ+a1zQxl9QRGrxzL1Vx6HCeRz8KLJxW7tu5lPKFpx+vZdnlsi6j rX156aPhjbHI2QDpqyBFfXbvdARDWDxhY1e/J58LyaVmvg1okb/vZBZ7r3dbRrj4wfBz hvAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=erYULW3dgW2f4DGAtgjucf0KrMSZojytvGZarcqNjGk=; b=Jrl2QHR/hYqZd1uBWf1j111at6z68Pc3UT+U8Hkiq66VJx8ERXlSrfvDJCvPEGLieY HNpwILDD0K/tHTIQteM/Qg4tXythNtDkLWo/6G0vLt2VBk2JPpCr50PAVUPjLFtHOKkV x8U9kR8hi33FabxkMFkGO9EsHdX6xkFOvdSAUZmBv1HEkxghp6xd0j4f17yB11lVFNfE eYwLnQxMm5J0IgPgtIlfFMjQsNxD1w7SBsPnzlm7iH/HfHQrU9yyVlKpAtZDxvvGWHtk dM4L49DILo1rgwrJEGdL0780SoFB8KP6znM/yZvdXObi0Mru4SjkMUKaBCl6DuaBzRjt FHqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ioa0Phc28p9jzbLrjqxwRYQFiJx4V6uCbr2TRCkJ7cedzPUSA fw3mp/tSLD9s64ut+sACBxBtCuxyGRM0S1/h7Ek= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPy9ySzft3sUNLKZNBDWXsufF48phejUcUQir/cRhREprnLjPeTH73zpRcvJD7jQaTlTIOQhw9PUe8u29w/hE= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2c9:: with SMTP id 192mr18651855ybc.175.1631569303856; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> <2b1c1794-137f-6fd7-eb84-9d1715ef7413@pdmconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <2b1c1794-137f-6fd7-eb84-9d1715ef7413@pdmconsulting.net> Reply-To: craigmcc@gmail.com From: Craig McClanahan Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:41:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Danny Mayer Cc: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Phil Hunt , "scim@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c86a5005cbe754b7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:41:52 -0000 --000000000000c86a5005cbe754b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For a paging use case, imagine you are trying to list the followers (or the n-th subset of them) in your UI for a very popular person on Twitter. You'll definitely want paging for something like that. FWIW, this was the breaking point for the last project I worked on that was looking at using SCIM -- we were in exactly the same situation when groups got too large. Craig McClanahan On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 1:27 PM Danny Mayer wrote= : > Matt, > > Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled > separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be t= he > only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hea= r > other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly > included in the draft RFCs. > > Danny > On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: > > Danny, > > > > One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination us= e > cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). > > > > I=E2=80=99m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can yo= u posting > to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d need pag= ination > for? Thanks! > > > > *From:* scim *On Behalf > Of * Danny Mayer > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM > *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > ; Phil Hunt > > *Cc:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize th= e > sender and know the content is safe. > > > > Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. > Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other > reasons why pagination may be necessary. > > Danny > > On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback Phil. I=E2=80=99m trying to determine proposed c= hanges to > the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect there might have been a translation = issue for > synchronization being more about pagination than paging? > > > > If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally > agreement for the updates too. > > > > Best, Nancy > > > > *From: *Phil Hunt > > *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM > *To: *ncamwing > *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > > > Nancy, > > > > Thanks for putting this together. > > > > For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization > and profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process > after some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (th= ey > may be fairly out of date!): > > > > * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim > > (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) > > * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - > https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html > > > > > Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with > synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited > number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large > groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing t= he > searching of MVAs. > > > > As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not > something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an > anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practice= s > or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach from the persp= ective of > security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. > > > > That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. > Unfortunately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case. > > > > Phil Hunt > > @independentid > > phil.hunt@independentid.com > > > > > > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) < > ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Hello SCIM participants, > > > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide > your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are > willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns o= r > issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n > HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain > scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing > adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series > 7642 > > , 7643 > > , 7644 > , > through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised > specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SC= IM > protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This > work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty > feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, > the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to > SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. Th= is > includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenario= s. > The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on > outcomes of the following work: > > 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > > > 1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > > > 1. Pull vs. Push based use cases > 2. Events and signals use cases > 3. Deletion use cases > > > 1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > > > 1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > > > 1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols > such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > 2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > > > 1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > > > 1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > 2. Incremental approaches to synchronization > > > 1. Support for deletion-related goals including: > > > 1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (= Soft > Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > > > 1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > > > 1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > 2. Attribute mapping > 3. Per-attribute schema negotiation > > > 1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise > group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam > = as > a base) > > > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > scim mailing list > > scim@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing listscim@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --000000000000c86a5005cbe754b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    For a paging use case, imagine you are trying to list the = followers (or the n-th subset of them) in your UI for a very popular person= on Twitter.=C2=A0 You'll definitely want paging for something like tha= t.

    FWIW, this was the breaking point for the last projec= t I worked on that was looking at using SCIM -- we were in exactly the same= situation when groups got too large.

    Craig McClanah= an

    On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 1:27 PM Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:
    <= /div>
    =20 =20 =20

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:
    =20 =20 =20

    Danny,

    =C2=A0

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    I=E2=80=99m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.=C2=A0 Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d need pagination for?= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks!=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: scim &l= t;scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    =C2=A0

    CAUTION= : This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.=

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.=C2=A0 I=E2= =80=99m trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect there might have been a translation = issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

    =C2=A0

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.=

    =C2=A0

    Best, Nancy

    =C2=A0

    From: Phil Hu= nt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    =C2=A0

    Nancy,

    =C2=A0

    Thanks for putting this together.

    =C2=A0

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.=C2=A0 I = am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.=C2=A0 Drafts already in th= e archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

    =C2=A0

    * SCIM Events -=C2=A0draft-hunt-idevent-scim=C2=A0 (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

    * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM -=C2= =A0https://openid.net/specs/openid-co= nnect-scim-profile-1_0.html

    =C2=A0

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.=C2=A0 T= his draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

    =C2=A0

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.=C2=A0 If its needed, I am happy to add text i= n the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99= t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

    =C2=A0

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn=E2=80= =99t elaborate on a use case.

    =C2=A0=C2=A0

    Phil Hunt

    @ind= ependentid

    =C2= =A0

    =C2=A0<= u>




    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    =C2=A0

    Hello SCIM participants,

    =C2=A0

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.=C2=A0

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

    =C2=A0

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification=C2=A0is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series=C2=A07642,=C2=A07643,=C2=A07644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.=

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:=

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:=
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns=
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage=
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:<= /li>
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]<= u>
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization<= /u>
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allo= w Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:<= /u>
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials=
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using=C2=A0draft-grizzle-scim-pam=C2=A0as a base)

    =C2=A0

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

    =C2=A0

    ____________________________________________= ___
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/scim

    =C2=A0



    _______________________________________________<=
/u>
    scim mailing list
    scim@ie=
tf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sci=
m

    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree. Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter= , but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics. I = am interested in both topics. As proof, I'm hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional pagina= tion use case besides the "use of pagination for initial load of synchroniz= ed objects": 1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the= application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. <-= - Pagination 2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up = to date with changes being made on the SCIM server. <-- Synchronization One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI.= Like Google search results. Is anyone doing this? We aren't. For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern "Type= ahead Find" pattern that is preferred by our users - and it does not requir= e pagination. Again... I don't know all the use cases for pagination. I'm sure there are= more out there that are very relevant. Step one is making a list of reaso= ns people need pagination. From: Danny Mayer Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; Nancy Cam-Win= get (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not fol= low guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sen= der and know the content is safe. Matt, Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separ= ately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only= case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear othe= r people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included= in the draft RFCs. Danny On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: Danny, One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use = cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). I'm eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you posting = to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you'd need pagination fo= r? Thanks! From: scim On Behalf = Of Danny Mayer Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt Cc: scim@ietf.org Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not fol= low guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sen= der and know the content is safe. Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization= MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagin= ation may be necessary. Danny On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: Thanks for the feedback Phil. I'm trying to determine proposed changes to = the charter text.....I suspect there might have been a translation issue fo= r synchronization being more about pagination than paging? If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement= for the updates too. Best, Nancy From: Phil Hunt Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM To: ncamwing Cc: "scim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Nancy, Thanks for putting this together. For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization an= d profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after = some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may b= e fairly out of date!): * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in = RFC8417) * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect= -scim-profile-1_0.html Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synchroni= zation and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of val= ues in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most ty= pical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of M= VAs. As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not somet= hing we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-patt= ern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewh= ere as to why this isn't a great approach from the perspective of security,= DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortuna= tely they didn't elaborate on a use case. Phil Hunt @independentid phil.hunt@independentid.com On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > wrote: Hello SCIM participants, After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussi= on, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the= IETF 111 SINS session. This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide you= r response by Sept. 24, 2021. As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are w= illing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or = issues you see with the charter below: Charter The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an = HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenario= s easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7= 642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The= group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Inf= ormational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consider= ation as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata= and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy= best practices. In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, th= e group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM = that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This incl= udes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The= working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outc= omes of the following work: 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns * Pull vs. Push based use cases * Events and signals use cases * Deletion use cases * New use cases may be added to the revised RFC 1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols= such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed * Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage 1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domai= ns focused on: * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [dra= ft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] * Incremental approaches to synchronization 1. Support for deletion-related goals including: * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don't allow Deletes (Soft De= letes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] 1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials * Attribute mapping * Per-attribute schema negotiation 1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise g= roup and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base) Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim _______________________________________________ scim mailing list scim@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --_000_MWHPR19MB09575B5DBCBDAA0276008305E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I agree.  

     

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the sam= e bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possib= ly related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. 

     

    As proof, I’m hoping to get feedback from anyo= ne that has additional pagination use case besides the “use of pagina= tion for initial load of synchronized objects”:

     

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the= application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. ß Pagination<= /li>
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups= up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server.  ß Synchronization

      3.  

      One classic use case for pagination is to support pa= ges of results in a UI.   Like Google search results.   = ;Is anyone doing this?  

       

      We aren’t.  For UI to find/search SCIM ob= jects, we use a more modern  “Typeahead Find” pattern that= is preferred by our users – and it does not require pagination.=

       

      Again… I don’t know all the use cases fo= r pagination.  I’m sure there are more out there that are very r= elevant.  Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.=   

       

       

      From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net= >
      Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
      To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; = Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.= hunt@independentid.com>
      Cc: scim@ietf.org
      Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)chart= er

       

      <= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#9C6500">CAUTION: This email originated from outside of t= he organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know = the content is safe.

       

      Matt,

      Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled se= parately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the o= nly case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear o= ther people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

      Danny

      On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:=

      Danny,

       

      One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand w= hat the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to = be synchronized). 

       

      I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination= use cases.  Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are th= inking of you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! 

       

      From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
      Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
      To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
      Cc: scim@ietf.org
      Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)chart= er

       

      <= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#9C6500">CAUTION: This email originated from outside of t= he organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know = the content is safe.

       

      Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronizat= ion MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pa= gination may be necessary.

      Danny

      On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrot= e:

      Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying= to determine proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there = might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pa= gination than paging?

       

      If you can provide suggested updates, it will be hel= pful to rally agreement for the updates too.

       

      Best, Nancy

       

      From= : Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.= com>
      Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
      To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisc= o.com>
      Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <= a href=3D"mailto:scim@ietf.org"> <scim@ietf.org>
      Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)chart= er

       

      Nancy,

       

      Thanks for putting this together.

       

      For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events= and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated dr= afts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts a= lready in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

       

       

      Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has = nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to = pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations s= uch as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.=

       

      As far as exploring using paging as a synchronizatio= n approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO thi= s appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in = the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, t= imeliness, scale, and cost.

       

      That said, a couple people indicated they wanted sta= teful paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case.=

        

      Phil Hunt

      @independentid

       =

       





      On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwi= ng) <ncamwing= =3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

       

      Hello SCIM participants,

       

      After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosti= ng these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses t= he points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

      This is a call for support of the charter defined be= low, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

       

      As you respond in support for the charter, please al= so specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resul= ting documents.

      Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if= there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

       

      Charter

      The System for Cross-domain Id= entity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that = makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last p= ublished in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

      One goal for this working grou= p is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

      In addition to revising the re= quirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider add= itional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption= and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scen= arios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs bas= ed on outcomes of the following work:

      1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 wil= l:
        1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patt= erns
          1. Pull vs. Push based use cases<= /o:p>
          2. Events and signals use cases
          3. Deletion use cases
            4. <= /ol>
          1. New use cases may be added to the revised = RFC
        1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
          1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other id= entity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals,= and Fastfed
          2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid= usage
        1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-= related goals between domains focused on:
          1. Handling returning large result sets throu= gh paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
            2. Incremental approaches to synchronization<= /span>
        1. Support for deletion-related goals includi= ng:
          1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don&= #8217;t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-del= ete-00]
        1. Support for advanced automation scenarios = such as:
          1. Discovery and negotiation of client creden= tials
          2. Attribute mapping
            3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
        1. Enhance the existing schema to support exc= hanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using&nbs= p;draft-grizzl= e-scim-pam as a base)

         

        Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

         

        _______________________________________________ scim mailing list
        scim@ietf.org
        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim=

       




      _______________________________________________
      scim mailing list
      scim@ietf.org
      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



      _______________________________________________
      scim mailing list
      scim@ietf.org
      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    --_000_MWHPR19MB09575B5DBCBDAA0276008305E1D99MWHPR19MB0957namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 13 14:55:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA2B3A121B for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=remediant.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a0hGTsqIAoa6 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427FC3A121A for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id j13so16525809edv.13 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=remediant.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=JxYnzX8u/m32poriyXznzwnslMe7AD+6GiWV5w/M7p4=; b=SL72LoR4AFCPwPoobxACk/yQiaKM6wAegbZ6LvwW6AhsVZjrLnWmjnDy6fAvepLwvD jNvHthJdImLa1tP07mqpQHkBsBK+DO8qg7AhyYVwGPy0FHt1g8Om2l/8ueTtUEgN/dbH PqzJztXOHJewIsFvSzI/57aEKeHDAfAZh8tfM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=JxYnzX8u/m32poriyXznzwnslMe7AD+6GiWV5w/M7p4=; b=JED5rAuyKjMf6H1qoyuoGCgM7lclF+kiOFtrExI1ljY2OpPV5cNN02zC0PEE4LVwcb QOT/sWBP3ClElbDLa/DrQ/jlkngsIqsXG7oHwS0ZQ0xx4d+3pHflUnKQz5xG8iOybflK P1qSiKptUI+fwPovsHcAbJmRAPorStM/Crc2vunwFw99QPobhi7x+TdRVD/3+dfm8pJe fnObF5HWXMCHdH7JWO5nFUfCPGz4EdUdKp2UIKzJrLDw3tTqglbqTqENEAKD0PRMcoxU t06fon5quQu2oBm8ZTggAArGY6p1drz5ZD6YTD0Jxn+HskocsG5gJmI1ADs1kjQi4wDR Atlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532B6ScR7KSGvQBB/i4DKDHpQj2g7M+ZnkVAXUlF0qcdR4uO9h0S yhEGJ+VQ0vT9RPB6NqOGzcAPzUHiQr21F1Zi8Lahv1ki4YabmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrds6xW5GOVW7pAi9+m/MoBD7z/Np5OleVtHxHnTroIgh5zlGEqjr7fRk4QeyQIVZdtYlYVdLEC4N/C/hGwXE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:205:: with SMTP id t5mr15529536edv.81.1631570132033; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Paul Lanzi Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:55:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: "scim@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025741d05cbe786be" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:55:41 -0000 --00000000000025741d05cbe786be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to add my voice of support to the proposed charter. As with Matt and Mike, I'm happy to engage specifically on the PAM (aka Grizzle) extension modification, incorporation, documentation and implementation. Happy to contribute on other charter elements as well but PAM will be the area when I can add the most expertise. Thanks, --Paul Lanzi =E1=90=A7 On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 7:19 AM Danny Mayer wrote: > I support this charter. I will be happy to help produce and review > documents and provide use cases. I can't do any implementations right now > though I may be able to borrow Phil's sample implementation! > > Danny > On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide > your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are > willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns o= r > issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n > HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain > scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing > adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series > 7642 , 7643 > , 7644 > , through the Internet > Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the > SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base > schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based > upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and > incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, > the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to > SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. Th= is > includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenario= s. > The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on > outcomes of the following work: > > - Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > - Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > - Pull vs. Push based use cases > - Events and signals use cases > - Deletion use cases > - New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > - Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > - Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fa= stfed > - Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > - Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > - Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > - Incremental approaches to synchronization > - Support for deletion-related goals including: > - Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes= (Soft > Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > - Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > - Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > - Attribute mapping > - Per-attribute schema negotiation > - Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise > group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam > as a > base) > > > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing listscim@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --00000000000025741d05cbe786be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I want to add my voice of support to the proposed charter.= As with Matt and Mike, I'm happy to engage specifically=C2=A0on the PA= M (aka Grizzle) extension modification, incorporation, documentation and im= plementation. Happy to contribute on other charter elements as well but PAM= will be the area when I can add the most expertise.

    Tha= nks,

    --Paul Lanzi
    3D""=E1=90=A7
    On= Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 7:19 AM Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:
    =20 =20 =20

    I support this charter.=C2=A0 I will be happy to help produce and review documents and provide use cases. I can't do any implementations right now though I may be able to borrow Phil's sample implementation!

    Danny

    On 9/8/21 8:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:
    =20 =20 =20

    Hello SCIM participants,

    =C2=A0=

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.=C2=A0

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0=

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:<= /p>

    =C2=A0=

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification=C2=A0= is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series=C2=A07642<= /a>,=C2=A07643,=C2=A07644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.=

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        • Pull vs. Push based use cases
        • Events and signals use cases
        • Deletion use cases
      • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    • Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:<= /u>
      • Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      • Incremental approaches to synchronization
    • Support for deletion-related goals including:
      • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes= ) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      • Attribute mapping
      • Per-attribute schema negotiation
    • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using=C2=A0draft-grizzle-scim-pam=C2=A0as a base)

    =C2=A0=

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

    =C2=A0= 


    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    --00000000000025741d05cbe786be-- From nobody Mon Sep 13 16:53:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E060E3A1ACE for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNiVR4MC53y1 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:205::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6AB43A1AC7 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H7jwk0lY0zMNXJ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 23:53:26 +0000 (UTC) To: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Phil Hunt Cc: "scim@ietf.org" References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> <2b1c1794-137f-6fd7-eb84-9d1715ef7413@pdmconsulting.net> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 19:53:25 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1372C5E7BAEC75879DEF5279" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 23:53:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1372C5E7BAEC75879DEF5279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory. Danny On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: > > I agree. > > Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the > charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) > topics. I am interested in both topics. > > As proof, Im hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional > pagination use case besides the use of pagination for initial load of > synchronized objects: > > 1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that > the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization > decisions. Pagination > 2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups > up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server. > Synchronization > > One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in > a UI. Like Google search results. Is anyone doing this? > > We arent. For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern > Typeahead Find pattern that is preferred by our users and it does > not require pagination. > > Again I dont know all the use cases for pagination. Im sure there > are more out there that are very relevant. Step one is making a list > of reasons people need pagination. > > *From:* Danny Mayer > *Sent:* Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM > *To:* Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; Nancy > Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt > > *Cc:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do > not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > Matt, > > Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled > separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not > be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would > like to hear other people's experience of this so that the > requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs. > > Danny > > On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: > > Danny, > > One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the > pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to > be synchronized). > > Im eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you > posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of youd > need pagination for? Thanks! > > *From:* scim > *On Behalf Of *Danny Mayer > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM > *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > > ; Phil Hunt > > *Cc:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS > (re)charter > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. > Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless > you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. > Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are > other reasons why pagination may be necessary. > > Danny > > On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback Phil. Im trying to determine > proposed changes to the charter text..I suspect there might > have been a translation issue for synchronization being more > about pagination than paging? > > If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to > rally agreement for the updates too. > > Best, Nancy > > *From: *Phil Hunt > > *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM > *To: *ncamwing > *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS > (re)charter > > Nancy, > > Thanks for putting this together. > > For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and > Synchronization and profiles. I am willing to provide updated > drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases. > Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!): > > * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim > > (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) > > * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - > https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html > > > Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do > with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to > pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in > situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in > building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs. > > As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach > is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO > this appraoch an anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to > add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this > isnt a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, > timeliness, scale, and cost. > > That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful > paging. Unfortunately they didnt elaborate on a use case. > > Phil Hunt > > @independentid > > phil.hunt@independentid.com > > > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > > wrote: > > Hello SCIM participants, > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting > these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter > that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS > session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, > please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also > specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or > implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there > are concerns or issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specificationis an HTTP-based protocol that makes > managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM > was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, > currently RFC series 7642 > , > 7643 > , > 7644 > , > through the Internet Standard process. The group will > deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements > as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base > schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work > will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and > interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security > and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and > base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional > specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad > adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes > profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional > scenarios. The working group will develop additional > Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following > work: > > 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > > 1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > > 1. Pull vs. Push based use cases > 2. Events and signals use cases > 3. Deletion use cases > > 2. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > > 2. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > > 1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other > identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, > OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > 2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > > 3. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related > goals between domains focused on: > > 1. Handling returning large result sets through > paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > 2. Incremental approaches to synchronization > > 4. Support for deletion-related goals including: > > 1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that dont allow > Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on > [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > > 5. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > > 1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > 2. Attribute mapping > 3. Per-attribute schema negotiation > > 6. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of > HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management > (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam > as > a base) > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > scim mailing list > > scim@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > > _______________________________________________ > > scim mailing list > > scim@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------1372C5E7BAEC75879DEF5279 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    I agree.

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics. I am interested in both topics.

    As proof, Im hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional pagination use case besides the use of pagination for initial load of synchronized objects:

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. Pagination
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server. Synchronization

    One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI. Like Google search results. Is anyone doing this?

    We arent. For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern Typeahead Find pattern that is preferred by our users and it does not require pagination.

    Again I dont know all the use cases for pagination. Im sure there are more out there that are very relevant. Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.

    From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>
    Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
    To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).

    Im eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of youd need pagination for? Thanks!

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil. Im trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text..I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

    Best, Nancy

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    Nancy,

    Thanks for putting this together.

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

    * SCIM Events -draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isnt a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didnt elaborate on a use case.

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid





    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello SCIM participants,

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specificationis an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series7642,7643,7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that dont allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (usingdraft-grizzle-scim-pamas a base)

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim




    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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[2001:569:540c:4900:454:6489:bcfe:2623]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i5sm7638949pjk.47.2021.09.13.17.22.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 17:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1DD35C52-F884-452E-A220-D8C373E47CEC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Phillip Hunt Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 17:22:44 -0700 Message-Id: <1C31A4EF-6BD4-415F-98BB-3716C72138C4@independentid.com> References: Cc: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , scim@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Danny Mayer X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 00:22:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1DD35C52-F884-452E-A220-D8C373E47CEC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged clients tha= t need it? Maybe this is a best practice item? Phil > On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) i= nvolved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related t= o usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a= limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and no= t to tax the memory. >=20 > Danny >=20 > On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >> I agree. =20 >> =20 >> Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the chart= er, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics. I= am interested in both topics.=20 >> =20 >> As proof, I=E2=80=99m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additio= nal pagination use case besides the =E2=80=9Cuse of pagination for initial l= oad of synchronized objects=E2=80=9D: >> =20 >> Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the app= lication can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. =C3=9F P= agination >> Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to d= ate with changes being made on the SCIM server. =C3=9F Synchronization >> =20 >> One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a U= I. Like Google search results. Is anyone doing this? =20 >> =20 >> We aren=E2=80=99t. For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more mod= ern =E2=80=9CTypeahead Find=E2=80=9D pattern that is preferred by our users= =E2=80=93 and it does not require pagination. >> =20 >> Again=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t know all the use cases for pagination. I=E2= =80=99m sure there are more out there that are very relevant. Step one is m= aking a list of reasons people need pagination. =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Danny Mayer =20 >> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM >> To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; Nancy Cam-W= inget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt >> Cc: scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >> =20 >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not f= ollow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the se= nder and know the content is safe. >> =20 >> Matt, >>=20 >> Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled sep= arately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the onl= y case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear othe= r people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included i= n the draft RFCs. >>=20 >> Danny >>=20 >> On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >> Danny, >> =20 >> One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination us= e cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).=20 >> =20 >> I=E2=80=99m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can yo= u posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d n= eed pagination for? Thanks!=20 >> =20 >> From: scim On Behalf Of Danny Mayer >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM >> To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; P= hil Hunt >> Cc: scim@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >> =20 >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not f= ollow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the se= nder and know the content is safe. >> =20 >> Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronizati= on MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagi= nation may be necessary. >>=20 >> Danny >>=20 >> On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >> Thanks for the feedback Phil. I=E2=80=99m trying to determine proposed c= hanges to the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect there might have been a trans= lation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging? >> =20 >> If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreeme= nt for the updates too. >> =20 >> Best, Nancy >> =20 >> From: Phil Hunt >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM >> To: ncamwing >> Cc: "scim@ietf.org" >> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >> =20 >> Nancy, >> =20 >> Thanks for putting this together. >> =20 >> For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization a= nd profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after s= ome initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may be f= airly out of date!): >> =20 >> * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflect t= he work we did in RFC8417) >> * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-conne= ct-scim-profile-1_0.html >> =20 >> Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synchro= nization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of va= lues in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most ty= pical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MV= As. >> =20 >> As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not som= ething we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pat= tern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewh= ere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach from the perspective of se= curity, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. >> =20 >> That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortu= nately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case. >> =20 >> Phil Hunt >> @independentid >> phil.hunt@independentid.com >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >> =20 >> Hello SCIM participants, >> =20 >> After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discus= sion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at th= e IETF 111 SINS session.=20 >> This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide y= our response by Sept. 24, 2021.=20 >> =20 >> As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are= willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. >> Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns o= r issues you see with the charter below: >> =20 >> Charter >>=20 >> The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenari= os easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. >>=20 >> One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series= 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will del= iver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and f= or the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standar= d. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilt= y feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. >>=20 >> In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, t= he group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM t= hat have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includ= es profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The wo= rking group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes= of the following work: >>=20 >> Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: >> Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns >> Pull vs. Push based use cases >> Events and signals use cases >> Deletion use cases >> New use cases may be added to the revised RFC >> Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: >> Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such a= s OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed >> Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage >> Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains f= ocused on: >> Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt= -scim-mv-paging-00] >> Incremental approaches to synchronization >> Support for deletion-related goals including: >> Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft D= eletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] >> Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: >> Discovery and negotiation of client credentials >> Attribute mapping >> Per-attribute schema negotiation >> Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group= and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base) >> =20 >> Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail-1DD35C52-F884-452E-A220-D8C373E47CEC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Ahem. Maybe just change the m= aximum results limit for privileged clients that need it?

    Maybe this is a best practice item?

    Phil

    On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM= , Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    =EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20

    The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    I agree.  

     

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. 

     

    As proof, I=E2=80=99m hoping to get feedback f= rom anyone that has additional pagination use case besides the =E2=80=9Cuse of pagination for initial load of synchronized object= s=E2=80=9D:

     

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. =C3=9F Pagination
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server.  =C3=9F Synchronization

     

    One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI.   Like Google search results.   Is anyone doing this?  

     

    We aren=E2=80=99t.  For UI to find/searc= h SCIM objects, we use a more modern  =E2=80=9CTypeahead Find=E2=80=9D= pattern that is preferred by our users =E2=80=93 and it does not require pagination.

     

    Again=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t know all the u= se cases for pagination.  I=E2=80=99m sure there are more out there that a= re very relevant.  Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.   

     

     

    From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>
    Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
    To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; Nancy Cam-Wing= et (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span>

     

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

     

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). 

     

    I=E2=80=99m eager to start keeping track o= f pagination use cases.  Can you posting to the list the us= e cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d need pagination for?   Thanks! 

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org>= On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I= =E2=80=99m trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect there might have been a translati= on issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From: P= hil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happ= y to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach from the perspec= tive of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case.<= /p>

      

    P= hil Hunt

    @= independentid

    <= a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@independentid.com" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">phil.= hunt@independentid.com

    &= nbsp;

    &n= bsp;





    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D4= 0cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, <= a href=3D"https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%= 2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7643&data=3D04%7C01%7CMatt.Pete= rson%40oneidentity.com%7Ca46f65d815bb4b0a23a808d976f4e531%7C91c369b51c9e439c= 989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637671616475073378%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj= oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdat= a=3DPMP0OLBA%2FeTnUBvPQ98nPc%2BLtcLt0g6eDfaPmUs6J%2Fs%3D&reserved=3D0" t= arget=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">7643= , 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

      =
    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      =
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns=
      =
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      =
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC=
      =
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      =
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage=
      =
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:<= /li>
      =
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization
      =
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:<= /o:p>
      =
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t a= llow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
      =
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:<= o:p>
      =
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials=
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute= schema negotiation
      =
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-= pam as a base)

     

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

     

    ____________________________= ___________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     




    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/scim



    _______________________________________________<=
/pre>
            
    scim mailing list
    
            
    s=
cim@ietf.org
    
            
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sc=
im
    
          

    _______________________________=
________________
scim mailing list
scim@iet=
f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    =20
    = --Apple-Mail-1DD35C52-F884-452E-A220-D8C373E47CEC-- From nobody Tue Sep 14 08:53:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABCB93A23DF for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:53:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhnpfNAiWvwI for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [66.220.13.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41C4C3A23E7 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H87D31KpKzMNQG; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:53:07 +0000 (UTC) To: Phillip Hunt Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , scim@ietf.org, "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" References: <1C31A4EF-6BD4-415F-98BB-3716C72138C4@independentid.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: <1f7befb0-8f13-2b67-7447-9b65f738f5c9@pdmconsulting.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:53:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1C31A4EF-6BD4-415F-98BB-3716C72138C4@independentid.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------96D87F986E1FDC166E5ED7E9" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:53:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------96D87F986E1FDC166E5ED7E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the scim protocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST service call, and only one system should be performing management on that system. What's the use case for more than one application making scim protocol calls? Danny On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote: > > Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged > clients that need it? > > Maybe this is a best practice item? > > Phil > >> On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer wrote: >> >>  >> >> The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not >> exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit >> but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that >> returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most >> likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory. >> >> Danny >> >> On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>> >>> I agree. >>> >>> Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the >>> charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly >>> related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. >>> >>> As proof, I’m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional >>> pagination use case besides the “use of pagination for initial load >>> of synchronized objects”: >>> >>> 1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so >>> that the application can use this cache to quickly make >>> authorization decisions. ß Pagination >>> 2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and >>> groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server. ß >>> Synchronization >>> >>> One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results >>> in a UI.   Like Google search results.   Is anyone doing this? >>> >>> We aren’t.  For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern >>>  “Typeahead Find” pattern that is preferred by our users – and it >>> does not require pagination. >>> >>> Again… I don’t know all the use cases for pagination.  I’m sure >>> there are more out there that are very relevant.  Step one is making >>> a list of reasons people need pagination. >>> >>> *From:* Danny Mayer >>> *Sent:* Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM >>> *To:* Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; >>> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt >>> >>> *Cc:* scim@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >>> >>> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do >>> not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you >>> recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be >>> handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that >>> may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but >>> I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the >>> requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs. >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>> >>> Danny, >>> >>> One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the >>> pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set >>> to be synchronized). >>> >>> I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.  Can >>> you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of >>> you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! >>> >>> *From:* scim >>> *On Behalf Of *Danny Mayer >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM >>> *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) >>> >>> ; Phil Hunt >>> >>> *Cc:* scim@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS >>> (re)charter >>> >>> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the >>> organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open >>> attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content >>> is safe. >>> >>> Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. >>> Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There >>> are other reasons why pagination may be necessary. >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine >>> proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there might >>> have been a translation issue for synchronization being more >>> about pagination than paging? >>> >>> If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to >>> rally agreement for the updates too. >>> >>> Best, Nancy >>> >>> *From: *Phil Hunt >>> >>> *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM >>> *To: *ncamwing >>> *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" >>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS >>> (re)charter >>> >>> Nancy, >>> >>> Thanks for putting this together. >>> >>> For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and >>> Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide >>> updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement >>> on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly >>> out of date!): >>> >>> * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim >>> >>> (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) >>> >>> * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - >>> https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html >>> >>> >>> Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do >>> with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to >>> pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute >>> in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would >>> be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs. >>> >>> As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization >>> approach is not something we should explore (ie in the >>> charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its >>> needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or >>> elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the >>> perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. >>> >>> That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful >>> paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case. >>> >>> Phil Hunt >>> >>> @independentid >>> >>> phil.hunt@independentid.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hello SCIM participants, >>> >>> After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting >>> these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter >>> that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS >>> session. >>> >>> This is a call for support of the charter defined below, >>> please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. >>> >>> As you respond in support for the charter, please also >>> specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or >>> implement the resulting documents. >>> >>> Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if >>> there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below: >>> >>> >>> Charter >>> >>> The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) >>> specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes >>> managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. >>> SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing >>> adoption. >>> >>> One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, >>> currently RFC series 7642 >>> , >>> 7643 >>> , >>> 7644 >>> , >>> through the Internet Standard process. The group will >>> deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements >>> as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base >>> schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This >>> work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and >>> interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current >>> security and privacy best practices. >>> >>> In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and >>> base schema RFCs, the group will also consider >>> additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that >>> have found broad adoption and are ready for standards >>> track. This includes profiles and schemas for >>> interoperability in additional scenarios. The working >>> group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs >>> based on outcomes of the following work: >>> >>> 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: >>> >>> 1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns >>> >>> 1. Pull vs. Push based use cases >>> 2. Events and signals use cases >>> 3. Deletion use cases >>> >>> 2. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC >>> >>> 2. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: >>> >>> 1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other >>> identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, >>> OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed >>> 2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage >>> >>> 3. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related >>> goals between domains focused on: >>> >>> 1. Handling returning large result sets through >>> paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] >>> 2. Incremental approaches to synchronization >>> >>> 4. Support for deletion-related goals including: >>> >>> 1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t >>> allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on >>> [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] >>> >>> 5. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: >>> >>> 1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials >>> 2. Attribute mapping >>> 3. Per-attribute schema negotiation >>> >>> 6. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of >>> HR, Enterprise group and privileged access >>> management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam >>>  as >>> a base) >>> >>> Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> scim mailing list >>> >>> scim@ietf.org >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> scim mailing list >>> >>> scim@ietf.org >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------96D87F986E1FDC166E5ED7E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the scim protocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST service call, and only one system should be performing management on that system. What's the use case for more than one application making scim protocol calls?

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote:

    Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged clients that need it?

    Maybe this is a best practice item?

    Phil

    On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    

    The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    I agree.  

     

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. 

     

    As proof, I’m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional pagination use case besides the “use of pagination for initial load of synchronized objects”:

     

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. ß Pagination
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server.  ß Synchronization

     

    One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI.   Like Google search results.   Is anyone doing this?  

     

    We aren’t.  For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern  “Typeahead Find” pattern that is preferred by our users – and it does not require pagination.

     

    Again… I don’t know all the use cases for pagination.  I’m sure there are more out there that are very relevant.  Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.   

     

     

    From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>
    Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
    To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

     

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). 

     

    I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.  Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! 

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case.

      

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid

     

     





    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

     

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

     

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     




    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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[2001:569:540c:4900:50f2:5611:601c:8d35]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm2285987pjg.7.2021.09.14.10.04.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C5F09866-8FBF-4191-8108-51372D9AA88C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Phillip Hunt Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:04:45 -0700 Message-Id: References: <1f7befb0-8f13-2b67-7447-9b65f738f5c9@pdmconsulting.net> Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , scim@ietf.org, "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" In-Reply-To: <1f7befb0-8f13-2b67-7447-9b65f738f5c9@pdmconsulting.net> To: Danny Mayer X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:05:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C5F09866-8FBF-4191-8108-51372D9AA88C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The authz token contains scopes that enable access. Part of the policy can b= e to allow unlimited or different limits to list responses. Nothing says results sets are limited to 1000. The spec just says there may b= e limits.=20 Phil > On Sep 14, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Danny Mayer wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the scim pr= otocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST service call, and o= nly one system should be performing management on that system. What's the us= e case for more than one application making scim protocol calls? >=20 > Danny >=20 >> On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote: >>=20 >> Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged clients t= hat need it? >>=20 >> Maybe this is a best practice item? >>=20 >> Phil >>=20 >>> On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer wrote= : >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively)= involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not relate= d to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject t= o a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and= not to tax the memory. >>>=20 >>> Danny >>>=20 >>> On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>>> I agree. =20 >>>> =20 >>>> Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the cha= rter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics. = I am interested in both topics.=20 >>>> =20 >>>> As proof, I=E2=80=99m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has addit= ional pagination use case besides the =E2=80=9Cuse of pagination for initial= load of synchronized objects=E2=80=9D: >>>> =20 >>>> Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the a= pplication can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. =C3=9F= Pagination >>>> Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to= date with changes being made on the SCIM server. =C3=9F Synchronization >>>> =20 >>>> One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a= UI. Like Google search results. Is anyone doing this? =20 >>>> =20 >>>> We aren=E2=80=99t. For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more m= odern =E2=80=9CTypeahead Find=E2=80=9D pattern that is preferred by our use= rs =E2=80=93 and it does not require pagination. >>>> =20 >>>> Again=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t know all the use cases for pagination. I= =E2=80=99m sure there are more out there that are very relevant. Step one i= s making a list of reasons people need pagination. =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> From: Danny Mayer =20 >>>> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM >>>> To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; Nancy Cam= -Winget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt >>>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >>>> =20 >>>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not= follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the s= ender and know the content is safe. >>>> =20 >>>> Matt, >>>>=20 >>>> Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled s= eparately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the o= nly case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear ot= her people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly include= d in the draft RFCs. >>>>=20 >>>> Danny >>>>=20 >>>> On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>>> Danny, >>>> =20 >>>> One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination u= se cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).=20 >>>> =20 >>>> I=E2=80=99m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases. Can y= ou posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d n= eed pagination for? Thanks!=20 >>>> =20 >>>> From: scim On Behalf Of Danny Mayer >>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM >>>> To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = ; Phil Hunt >>>> Cc: scim@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >>>> =20 >>>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not= follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the s= ender and know the content is safe. >>>> =20 >>>> Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchroniza= tion MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pa= gination may be necessary. >>>>=20 >>>> Danny >>>>=20 >>>> On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >>>> Thanks for the feedback Phil. I=E2=80=99m trying to determine proposed= changes to the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect there might have been a tra= nslation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging? >>>> =20 >>>> If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agree= ment for the updates too. >>>> =20 >>>> Best, Nancy >>>> =20 >>>> From: Phil Hunt >>>> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM >>>> To: ncamwing >>>> Cc: "scim@ietf.org" >>>> Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter >>>> =20 >>>> Nancy, >>>> =20 >>>> Thanks for putting this together. >>>> =20 >>>> For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronizatio= n and profiles. I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process aft= er some initial agreement on cases. Drafts already in the archive (they may= be fairly out of date!): >>>> =20 >>>> * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim (needs to be updated to reflec= t the work we did in RFC8417) >>>> * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-con= nect-scim-profile-1_0.html >>>> =20 >>>> Regarding the MV-Paging draft. This draft has nothing to do with synch= ronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of v= alues in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most t= ypical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of M= VAs. >>>> =20 >>>> As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not s= omething we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-p= attern. If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or else= where as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach from the perspective of s= ecurity, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. >>>> =20 >>>> That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfor= tunately they didn=E2=80=99t elaborate on a use case. >>>> =20 >>>> Phil Hunt >>>> @independentid >>>> phil.hunt@independentid.com >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >>>> =20 >>>> Hello SCIM participants, >>>> =20 >>>> After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and disc= ussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at t= he IETF 111 SINS session.=20 >>>> This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide= your response by Sept. 24, 2021.=20 >>>> =20 >>>> As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you a= re willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. >>>> Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns= or issues you see with the charter below: >>>> =20 >>>> Charter >>>>=20 >>>> The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is= an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scena= rios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. >>>>=20 >>>> One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC seri= es 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will d= eliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, an= d for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Stan= dard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperab= ilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. >>>>=20 >>>> In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs= , the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SC= IM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This in= cludes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. Th= e working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outc= omes of the following work: >>>>=20 >>>> Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: >>>> Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns >>>> Pull vs. Push based use cases >>>> Events and signals use cases >>>> Deletion use cases >>>> New use cases may be added to the revised RFC >>>> Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: >>>> Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such= as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed >>>> Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage >>>> Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains= focused on: >>>> Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hu= nt-scim-mv-paging-00] >>>> Incremental approaches to synchronization >>>> Support for deletion-related goals including: >>>> Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft= Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] >>>> Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: >>>> Discovery and negotiation of client credentials >>>> Attribute mapping >>>> Per-attribute schema negotiation >>>> Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise gro= up and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)= >>>> =20 >>>> Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) >>>> =20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> scim mailing list >>>> scim@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> scim mailing list >> scim@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --Apple-Mail-C5F09866-8FBF-4191-8108-51372D9AA88C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The authz token contains scopes that enable= access. Part of the policy can be to allow unlimited or different limits to= list responses.

    Nothing says results sets are limited to= 1000. The spec just says there may be limits. 

    Phil

    On Sep 14, 2021, a= t 8:53 AM, Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    =EF=BB=BF =20 =20 =20

    I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the scim protocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST service call, and only one system should be performing management on that system. What's the use case for more than one application making scim protocol calls?

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote:

    Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged clients that need it?

    Maybe this is a best practice item?

    Phil

    On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    =EF=BB=BF

    The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    I agree.  

     

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics.  I am interested in both topics.  <= /o:p>

     

    As proof, I=E2=80=99m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional pagination use case besides the =E2=80=9Cuse of pagination for initia= l load of synchronized objects=E2=80=9D:

     

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. =C3=9F Pagination
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server.  =C3=9F= Synchronization

     

    One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI.   Like G= oogle search results.   Is anyone doing this? &nb= sp;

     

    We aren=E2=80=99t.  For UI to fi= nd/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern  =E2=80=9CTypeahea= d Find=E2=80=9D pattern that is preferred by our users =E2=80=93 and it do= es not require pagination.

     

    Again=E2=80=A6 I don=E2=80=99t know a= ll the use cases for pagination.  I=E2=80=99m sure there are mor= e out there that are very relevant.  Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.   <= /o:p>

     

     

    From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>
    Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
    To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <nca= mwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@in= dependentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

     

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). 

     

    I=E2=80=99m eager to start keepin= g track of pagination use cases.  Can you posting t= o the list the use cases that you are thinking of you=E2=80=99d need pagination for?   Thanks!=  

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf= .org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION:<= /span> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.<= /p>

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I=E2=80=99m trying to determine propos= ed changes to the charter text=E2=80=A6..I suspect th= ere might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing= to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be= fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to= add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn=E2=80=99t a great approach fr= om the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn=E2=80=99t elabor= ate on a use case.

      

    =

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid

     

     





    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.iet= f.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. <= /p>

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series = ;7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases<= /o:p>
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization=
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation=
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam=  as a base)

     

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

     

    ____________________= ___________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     




    _______________________________________________=

    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/scim



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/scim

    _______________________=
________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sc=
im


    _______________________________=
________________
scim mailing list
scim@iet=
f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
    =20
    = --Apple-Mail-C5F09866-8FBF-4191-8108-51372D9AA88C-- From nobody Tue Sep 14 10:48:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044CC3A271A for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdF1YPnn3-kJ for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:205::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AE4C3A271C for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H89nB1zSWzMNQG; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:48:30 +0000 (UTC) To: Phillip Hunt Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , scim@ietf.org, "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" References: <1f7befb0-8f13-2b67-7447-9b65f738f5c9@pdmconsulting.net> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: <3b111a3c-1544-63e2-95f7-09276164db46@pdmconsulting.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 13:48:29 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1DCA15B9318710E0D9CD2729" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:48:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1DCA15B9318710E0D9CD2729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Personally I'd find that an opportunity for abuse. Now you have the headache of how to manage those different scopes if you were to allow that. Can you provide a use case where that would be the right thing to do? Danny On 9/14/21 1:04 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote: > The authz token contains scopes that enable access. Part of the policy > can be to allow unlimited or different limits to list responses. > > Nothing says results sets are limited to 1000. The spec just says > there may be limits. > > Phil > >> On Sep 14, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Danny Mayer wrote: >> >>  >> >> I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the >> scim protocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST >> service call, and only one system should be performing management on >> that system. What's the use case for more than one application making >> scim protocol calls? >> >> Danny >> >> On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote: >>> >>> Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged >>> clients that need it? >>> >>> Maybe this is a best practice item? >>> >>> Phil >>> >>>> On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not >>>> exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response >>>> limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call >>>> that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, >>>> most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory. >>>> >>>> Danny >>>> >>>> On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I agree. >>>>> >>>>> Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in >>>>> the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly >>>>> related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. >>>>> >>>>> As proof, I’m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has >>>>> additional pagination use case besides the “use of pagination for >>>>> initial load of synchronized objects”: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so >>>>> that the application can use this cache to quickly make >>>>> authorization decisions. ß Pagination >>>>> 2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and >>>>> groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server. >>>>> ß Synchronization >>>>> >>>>> One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results >>>>> in a UI.   Like Google search results.   Is anyone doing this? >>>>> >>>>> We aren’t.  For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more >>>>> modern  “Typeahead Find” pattern that is preferred by our users – >>>>> and it does not require pagination. >>>>> >>>>> Again… I don’t know all the use cases for pagination.  I’m sure >>>>> there are more out there that are very relevant.  Step one is >>>>> making a list of reasons people need pagination. >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Danny Mayer >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM >>>>> *To:* Matt Peterson (mpeterso) ; >>>>> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) ; Phil Hunt >>>>> >>>>> *Cc:* scim@ietf.org >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS >>>>> (re)charter >>>>> >>>>> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. >>>>> Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless >>>>> you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>>>> >>>>> Matt, >>>>> >>>>> Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be >>>>> handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but >>>>> that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other >>>>> cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this >>>>> so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs. >>>>> >>>>> Danny >>>>> >>>>> On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Danny, >>>>> >>>>> One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the >>>>> pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object >>>>> set to be synchronized). >>>>> >>>>> I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.  Can >>>>> you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of >>>>> you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> *From:* scim >>>>> *On Behalf Of *Danny Mayer >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM >>>>> *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) >>>>> >>>>> ; Phil Hunt >>>>> >>>>> *Cc:* scim@ietf.org >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS >>>>> (re)charter >>>>> >>>>> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the >>>>> organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open >>>>> attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the >>>>> content is safe. >>>>> >>>>> Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. >>>>> Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There >>>>> are other reasons why pagination may be necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Danny >>>>> >>>>> On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine >>>>> proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there >>>>> might have been a translation issue for synchronization >>>>> being more about pagination than paging? >>>>> >>>>> If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful >>>>> to rally agreement for the updates too. >>>>> >>>>> Best, Nancy >>>>> >>>>> *From: *Phil Hunt >>>>> >>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM >>>>> *To: *ncamwing >>>>> >>>>> *Cc: *"scim@ietf.org" >>>>> >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed >>>>> SCIM/SINS (re)charter >>>>> >>>>> Nancy, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for putting this together. >>>>> >>>>> For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and >>>>> Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide >>>>> updated drafts for this process after some initial >>>>> agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they >>>>> may be fairly out of date!): >>>>> >>>>> * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim >>>>> >>>>> (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417) >>>>> >>>>> * OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - >>>>> https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to >>>>> do with synchronization and is intended for clients who >>>>> need to pull a limited number of values in a >>>>> multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. >>>>> Most typical use would be in building a user interface >>>>> allowing the searching of MVAs. >>>>> >>>>> As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization >>>>> approach is not something we should explore (ie in the >>>>> charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its >>>>> needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or >>>>> elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the >>>>> perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost. >>>>> >>>>> That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful >>>>> paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case. >>>>> >>>>> Phil Hunt >>>>> >>>>> @independentid >>>>> >>>>> phil.hunt@independentid.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget >>>>> (ncamwing) >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello SCIM participants, >>>>> >>>>> After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting >>>>> these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed >>>>> charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF >>>>> 111 SINS session. >>>>> >>>>> This is a call for support of the charter defined >>>>> below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. >>>>> >>>>> As you respond in support for the charter, please also >>>>> specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or >>>>> implement the resulting documents. >>>>> >>>>> Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if >>>>> there are concerns or issues you see with the charter >>>>> below: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Charter >>>>> >>>>> The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) >>>>> specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes >>>>> managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. >>>>> SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing >>>>> adoption. >>>>> >>>>> One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, >>>>> currently RFC series 7642 >>>>> , >>>>> 7643 >>>>> , >>>>> 7644 >>>>> , >>>>> through the Internet Standard process. The group will >>>>> deliver revised specifications for the SCIM >>>>> requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM >>>>> protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as >>>>> a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing >>>>> RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and >>>>> incorporate current security and privacy best practices. >>>>> >>>>> In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and >>>>> base schema RFCs, the group will also consider >>>>> additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that >>>>> have found broad adoption and are ready for standards >>>>> track. This includes profiles and schemas for >>>>> interoperability in additional scenarios. The working >>>>> group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs >>>>> based on outcomes of the following work: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns >>>>> >>>>> 1. Pull vs. Push based use cases >>>>> 2. Events and signals use cases >>>>> 3. Deletion use cases >>>>> >>>>> 2. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC >>>>> >>>>> 2. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other >>>>> identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, >>>>> OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed >>>>> 2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage >>>>> >>>>> 3. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related >>>>> goals between domains focused on: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Handling returning large result sets through >>>>> paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] >>>>> 2. Incremental approaches to synchronization >>>>> >>>>> 4. Support for deletion-related goals including: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t >>>>> allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on >>>>> [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] >>>>> >>>>> 5. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials >>>>> 2. Attribute mapping >>>>> 3. Per-attribute schema negotiation >>>>> >>>>> 6. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging >>>>> of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access >>>>> management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam >>>>>  as >>>>> a base) >>>>> >>>>> Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> scim mailing list >>>>> scim@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> scim mailing list >>> scim@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------1DCA15B9318710E0D9CD2729 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Personally I'd find that an opportunity for abuse. Now you have the headache of how to manage those different scopes if you were to allow that. Can you provide a use case where that would be the right thing to do?

    Danny

    On 9/14/21 1:04 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote:
    The authz token contains scopes that enable access. Part of the policy can be to allow unlimited or different limits to list responses.

    Nothing says results sets are limited to 1000. The spec just says there may be limits. 

    Phil

    On Sep 14, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    

    I don't know what scenarios would require more than one ID for the scim protocol. You are not logging into the system, it's a REST service call, and only one system should be performing management on that system. What's the use case for more than one application making scim protocol calls?

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 8:22 PM, Phillip Hunt wrote:

    Ahem. Maybe just change the maximum results limit for privileged clients that need it?

    Maybe this is a best practice item?

    Phil

    On Sep 13, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net> wrote:

    

    The experience I've had in doing pagination mostly (but not exclusively) involved HR systems which had a 1000 per response limit but were not related to usage of scim. However any API call that returns a list can be subject to a limit by the scim server, most likely in order to preserve resources and not to tax the memory.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 5:45 PM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    I agree.  

     

    Pagination and Synchronization show up under the same bullet in the charter, but, like you, I think of them as separate (possibly related) topics.  I am interested in both topics. 

     

    As proof, I’m hoping to get feedback from anyone that has additional pagination use case besides the “use of pagination for initial load of synchronized objects”:

     

    1. Fetch all users and groups for the application side cache so that the application can use this cache to quickly make authorization decisions. ß Pagination
    2. Incrementally keep the application-side cache of users and groups up to date with changes being made on the SCIM server.  ß Synchronization

     

    One classic use case for pagination is to support pages of results in a UI.   Like Google search results.   Is anyone doing this?  

     

    We aren’t.  For UI to find/search SCIM objects, we use a more modern  “Typeahead Find” pattern that is preferred by our users – and it does not require pagination.

     

    Again… I don’t know all the use cases for pagination.  I’m sure there are more out there that are very relevant.  Step one is making a list of reasons people need pagination.   

     

     

    From: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>
    Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 2:27 PM
    To: Matt Peterson (mpeterso) <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Matt,

    Synchronization and paging are different issues and should be handled separately. You may need paging for synchronization but that may not be the only case. I don't personally know of other cases but I would like to hear other people's experience of this so that the requirements be properly included in the draft RFCs.

    Danny

    On 9/13/21 11:02 AM, Matt Peterson (mpeterso) wrote:

    Danny,

     

    One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized). 

     

    I’m eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.  Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you’d need pagination for?   Thanks! 

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
    Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Cc: scim@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

     

    Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

    Danny

    On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I’m trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text…..I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

     

    If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

     

    Best, Nancy

     

    From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
    Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
    To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

     

    Nancy,

     

    Thanks for putting this together.

     

    For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

     

    * SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)

     

    Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

     

    As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn’t a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

     

    That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn’t elaborate on a use case.

      

    Phil Hunt

    @independentid

     

     





    On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello SCIM participants,

     

    After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. 

    This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021. 

     

    As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

     

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    1. Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      1. Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        1. Pull vs. Push based use cases
        2. Events and signals use cases
        3. Deletion use cases
      1. New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    1. Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      1. Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      2. Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage
    1. Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:
      1. Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
      2. Incremental approaches to synchronization
    1. Support for deletion-related goals including:
      1. Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    1. Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      1. Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      2. Attribute mapping
      3. Per-attribute schema negotiation
    1. Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

     

    Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

     

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

     




    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim



    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim

    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim


    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXlol3h1IUiMSDMmSfdFwnGonyauOY5CqN0aAv25sCBmzRLJYnkZlGf8KAuNbSkKaSDI6hDmumLQZXKaZtKJg= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:4303:: with SMTP id k3mr6873272uak.141.1631679594010; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:19:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Bradley Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:19:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Wahl Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , "scim@ietf.org" , Pamela Dingle , Mark Wahl , Danny Zollner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096b7a605cc0102d9" X-Gmail-Okta-Auth: Authenticated X-Gm-Spam: 0 X-Gm-Phishy: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-14_10,2021-09-14_01,2020-04-07_01 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:20:03 -0000 --00000000000096b7a605cc0102d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am also willing to contribute to revisions of drafts. Regards, Ryan Bradley *he/him/his* Senior Product Manager 617-852-2120 ryan.bradley@okta.com [image: Okta =E2=80=A2 Connect everything] On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 12:59 PM Mark Wahl wrote: > *This message originated outside your organization.* > > ------------------------------ > > > > I support this charter. I am also willing to contribute to the revision > of the SCIM core protocol and schema specifications to help progress them > along the standards track. > > > > Thanks, Mark > > > > > > > > *From:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 5:22 PM > *To:* scim@ietf.org > *Subject:* [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter > > > > Hello SCIM participants, > > > > After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and > discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points > raised at the IETF 111 SINS session. > > This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide > your response by Sept. 24, 2021. > > > > As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are > willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents. > > Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns o= r > issues you see with the charter below: > > > Charter > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n > HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain > scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing > adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series > 7642 > > , 7643 > > , 7644 > , > through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised > specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SC= IM > protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This > work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty > feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, > the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to > SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. Th= is > includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenario= s. > The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on > outcomes of the following work: > > - Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > - Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > - Pull vs. Push based use cases > - Events and signals use cases > - Deletion use cases > - New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > - Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > - Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fa= stfed > - Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > - Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > - Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > - Incremental approaches to synchronization > - Support for deletion-related goals including: > - Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don=E2=80=99t allow Deletes= (Soft > Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > - Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > - Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > - Attribute mapping > - Per-attribute schema negotiation > - Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise > group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam > as > a base) > > > > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim > --00000000000096b7a605cc0102d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I am also willing to contribute to revisions of drafts.
    Regards,

    Ryan Bradley

    he/him/his

    Senior Product Manager

    617-852-2120

    ryan.bradley@okt= a.com

    3D"Okta



    On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 12:59 PM Mark Wahl &l= t;Mark.Wahl=3D40microsoft= .com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    This message originated outside your organization.

    <= br>

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    I support this charte= r.=C2=A0 I am also willing to contribute to the revision of the SCIM core p= rotocol and schema specifications to help progress them along the standards= track.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    Thanks, Mark

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    From: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 5:22 PM
    To: scim@ietf.org=
    Subject: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

    =C2=A0

    Hello SCIM participan= ts,

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    After some virtual me= etings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new pr= oposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS sessio= n.=C2=A0

    This is a call for su= pport of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 2= 4, 2021.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    As you respond in sup= port for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, re= view and/or implement the resulting documents.

    Otherwise, do provide= feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with t= he charter below:

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    Charter

    The System for Cross-domain Identity M= anagement (SCIM) specification=C2=A0is an HTTP-based protocol that makes ma= naging identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to = shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series=C2=A07642,=C2=A07643,=C2=A07644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised spec= ifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM pro= tocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work w= ill be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and = privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requiremen= ts, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional = specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles a= nd schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group = will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the fol= lowing work:

    • draft-grizzle-scim-p= am=C2=A0as a base)

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    Best, Nancy (as one o= f the BoF chairs)

    =C2=A0<= /span>

    _______________________________________________
    scim mailing list
    scim@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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boundary="_000_BN8PR00MB08842EF73D065BFE83C9FC57F6DB9BN8PR00MB0884namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN8PR00MB0884.namprd00.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 73eb2160-24ac-4d85-dfb8-08d9784e2853 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 13:38:52.7594 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fWPNxsn3/NqeUoMzlI1zGFT0GLBhrY3PmNlLzsFRXPiFArS7k2dHyP7kPAIhZ70BgPUs1r35GsvTs/3rKdpHJg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR00MB0948 Archived-At: Subject: [scim] SCIM IG meeting today: 3pm and Oct 6: 8am (pacific) X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:39:09 -0000 --_000_BN8PR00MB08842EF73D065BFE83C9FC57F6DB9BN8PR00MB0884namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Just a heads up that today's SCIM IG meetup is at 3pm pacific time, and our= next SCIM IG meeting is not until October 6. We can schedule an interim m= eeting if we need to. The dial-in link for the meeting is below, we had one person who we could n= ot get admitted to the meeting but could see in the lobby - if that happens= again today, please email me with a phone number and I will try to dial yo= u in manually, I'm so sorry that you weren't able to connect! https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_Y2QxYzU0NjEtN2ZjNi= 00MGQ1LWJkMzUtZmQxZjZlZGZiYWZi%40thread.v2/0?context=3D%7b%22Tid%22%3a%2272= f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%2285bc2986-6412-41c0-a= b6d-98c80048fe64%22%7d Upcoming meeting Dates/Times: Meeting Date Time Sept 15, 2021 3pm PT Oct 6, 2021 8am PT --_000_BN8PR00MB08842EF73D065BFE83C9FC57F6DB9BN8PR00MB0884namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi all,

    Just a heads up that today's SCIM IG meetup is at 3pm pacific time, an= d our next SCIM IG meeting is not until October 6.  We can schedule an= interim meeting if we need to.

    The dial-in link for the meeting is below, we had one person who we co= uld not get admitted to the meeting but could see in the lobby - if that ha= ppens again today, please email me with a phone number and I will try to di= al you in manually, I'm so sorry that you weren't able to connect!

    Upcoming meeting Dates/Times:

    Meeting Date

    Time

    Sept 15, 2021<= /p>

    3pm PT

    Oct 6, 2021

    8am PT

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with ESMTP id AB23D3A2012 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:03:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7bxds4WDyOi for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [IPv6:2001:470:1:205::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 222BC3A200E for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newusers-MBP.fios-router.home (pool-108-26-179-179.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [108.26.179.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H8lPD4RY8zMNQJ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:03:12 +0000 (UTC) To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Pamela Dingle , "scim@ietf.org" References: <824DE556-AA77-4C68-8916-984EE4B20905@cisco.com> From: Danny Mayer Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:03:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <824DE556-AA77-4C68-8916-984EE4B20905@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------04CEB983A5D1EB1742F4E683" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] SCIM IG meeting today: 3pm and Oct 6: 8am (pacific) X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:03:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------04CEB983A5D1EB1742F4E683 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I will also not be able to attend. I do approve the update to the charter though. Danny On 9/15/21 11:52 AM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Hi all, > > I will not be able to attend today’s session, but would like to ensure > time is spent in refining the charter text.  The good news is that > there is support for the work, but the charter text needs to be agreed > upon. > > There were 2 suggested updates by Janelle and Phil so the updated > charter text is provided below….Can you focus today’s session to get > agreement on the below text or update accordingly? > > Once that is updated, I can do the  ask to see if there are any > objections….to the new charter text. > > Thanks,  Nancy > > Here’s the proposed revised text based on responses: > > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) > specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities > in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and > has seen growing adoption. > > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC > series 7642 , 7643 > , 7644 > , through the Internet > Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for > the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and > base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will > be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, > and incorporate current security and privacy best practices. > > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema > RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as > extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for > standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for > interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will > develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the > following work: > > * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: > o Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > + Pull vs. Push based use cases > + Events and signals use cases > + Deletion use cases > o New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: > o Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric > protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, > and Fastfed > o Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > > oUpdates to account state for capturing context of the state or change > in state of the users account > > o > * Multi-Value Query Filtering and Paging - based on > [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00] > * Define a method for synchronization-related between domains: > o Incremental approach to synchronization > o Consider building off of RFC8417 and draft-hunt-idevent-scim > > * Support for deletion-related goals including: > o Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes > (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > o Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > o Attribute mapping > o Per-attribute schema negotiation > * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, > Enterprise group and privileged access management (using > draft-grizzle-scim-pam >  as > a base) > > *From: *scim on behalf of Pamela Dingle > > *Date: *Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:39 AM > *To: *"scim@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[scim] SCIM IG meeting today: 3pm and Oct 6: 8am (pacific) > > Hi all, > > Just a heads up that today's SCIM IG meetup is at 3pm pacific time, > and our next SCIM IG meeting is not until October 6.  We can schedule > an interim meeting if we need to. > > The dial-in link for the meeting is below, we had one person who we > could not get admitted to the meeting but could see in the lobby - if > that happens again today, please email me with a phone number and I > will try to dial you in manually, I'm so sorry that you weren't able > to connect! > > https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_Y2QxYzU0NjEtN2ZjNi00MGQ1LWJkMzUtZmQxZjZlZGZiYWZi%40thread.v2/0?context=%7b%22Tid%22%3a%2272f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%2285bc2986-6412-41c0-ab6d-98c80048fe64%22%7d > > > Upcoming meeting Dates/Times: > > *Meeting Date* > > > > *Time* > > Sept 15, 2021 > > > > 3pm PT > > Oct 6, 2021 > > > > 8am PT > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list > scim@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim --------------04CEB983A5D1EB1742F4E683 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    I will also not be able to attend. I do approve the update to the charter though.

    Danny

    On 9/15/21 11:52 AM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:

    Hi all,

    I will not be able to attend today’s session, but would like to ensure time is spent in refining the charter text.  The good news is that there is support for the work, but the charter text needs to be agreed upon.

    There were 2 suggested updates by Janelle and Phil so the updated charter text is provided below….Can you focus today’s session to get agreement on the below text or update accordingly?

    Once that is updated, I can do the  ask to see if there are any objections….to the new charter text.

     

    Thanks,  Nancy

     

    Here’s the proposed revised text based on responses:

    The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

    One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642, 7643, 7644, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

    In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

    • Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:
      • Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns
        • Pull vs. Push based use cases
        • Events and signals use cases
        • Deletion use cases
      • New use cases may be added to the revised RFC
    • Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:
      • Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
      • Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage

    o    Updates to account state for capturing context of the state or change in state of the users account

      •  
    • Multi-Value Query Filtering and Paging - based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
    • Define a method for synchronization-related between domains:
    • Support for deletion-related goals including:
      • Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don’t allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]
    • Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:
      • Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
      • Attribute mapping
      • Per-attribute schema negotiation
    • Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base)

     

     

     

    From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Pamela Dingle <Pamela.Dingle=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 6:39 AM
    To: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
    Subject: [scim] SCIM IG meeting today: 3pm and Oct 6: 8am (pacific)

     

    Hi all,

     

    Just a heads up that today's SCIM IG meetup is at 3pm pacific time, and our next SCIM IG meeting is not until October 6.  We can schedule an interim meeting if we need to.

     

    The dial-in link for the meeting is below, we had one person who we could not get admitted to the meeting but could see in the lobby - if that happens again today, please email me with a phone number and I will try to dial you in manually, I'm so sorry that you weren't able to connect!

     

    Upcoming meeting Dates/Times:

     

    Meeting Date

    Time

    Sept 15, 2021

    3pm PT

    Oct 6, 2021

    8am PT

     


    _______________________________________________
scim mailing list
scim@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/scim
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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:33:43 +0000 From: Roman Danyliw To: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter Thread-Index: AdeqdWSlY55KM+ZHQaOa+g+pZvhE7g== Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:33:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cert.org; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cdf501c8-404a-4a3a-82fe-08d978907e34 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN1P110MB018: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4941; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: cert.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN1P110MB0939.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cdf501c8-404a-4a3a-82fe-08d978907e34 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 21:33:43.6860 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 95a9dce2-04f2-4043-995d-1ec3861911c6 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1P110MB018 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:33:58 -0000 Hi! Various discussion is underway to refine this charter scope. Endorsements = of the charter are also coming. Both are essentially for us moving forward= so thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. What I'm proposing below are largely editorial recommendations to improve t= he clarity of the intended scope; ensuring we maintaining flexibility; and = catch common IESG/community feedback during the charting process. More inline ...=20 > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:=20 [snip] > The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is a= n > HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenar= ios > easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption. Paragraph 1: -- the IESG often looks for the RFCs numbers of the prior work up front -- Make clear that SCIM is actually both a protocol and schema Rough replacement text: The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specifications provi= de an HTTP-based protocol (RFC7643) and schema (RFC76744) that makes managi= ng identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. Since its publication in 2= 015, SCIM has seen growing adoption. > One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series > 764242>, > 764343>, > 764444>, through the Inter= net > Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the S= CIM > requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema > suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon th= e > existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate curre= nt > security and privacy best practices. Para 2: There is benefit to first establishing what we want to do and why before ju= mping directly into process. IMO, we're focusing a little too much on docu= ment maturity here. As a practical matter informational documents don't fo= llow the same maturity (Section 4.* of RFC2026). I also see value in strea= mlining the intent is vague way to give us flexibility on what will get upd= ated. Rough replacement text: The first goal of this working group is to incorporate implementation exper= ience; errata and interoperatiblity feedback; and current security and best= practices into a revised version of RFC7643 (protocol) and RFC7644 (base s= chema) suitability for consideration as the Internet Standard level of matu= rity. > In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, = the > group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM = that > have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This include= s > profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios.=20 Para 3: -- is there a reason we have to restrict ourselves to extensions which are = standards track? Would there be no reason to publish some profile or exten= sion as something as experimental or informational? -- it seems like we also want to explicitly thread that there is likely sch= ema/protocol work do in support of the new use cases. Rough replacement text: Additionally, implementation experience with SCIM has surfaced new use case= s and requirements. The WG will document them in a revision of RFC7642. Th= e WG will also consider publishing extensions to SCIM that have found broad= adoption. These extensions may include profiles and schemas for interopera= bility in additional use cases. > The working > group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of > the following work: As noted above I think this gets caught up in whether it extensions need to= be PS and it didn't follow for me to reference the information requirement= doc. Rough replacement text: The scope of the WG will include: > * Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will: s/informational RFC 7642 will/RFC 7642 that will/ to be consistent with the= document status being omitted in the next bullet. > * Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns > * Pull vs. Push based use cases > * Events and signals use cases > * Deletion use cases > * New use cases may be added to the revised RFC > * Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include: Nit. s/RFC 7643\/44 /RFC 7643 and7644 that/ > * Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protoco= ls such as > OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed > * Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage > * Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between > domains focused on: > * Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [d= raft-hunt- > scim-mv-paging-00] > * Incremental approaches to synchronization > * Support for deletion-related goals including: > * Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don't allow Deletes (Soft = Deletes) - > based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00] > * Support for advanced automation scenarios such as: > * Discovery and negotiation of client credentials > * Attribute mapping > * Per-attribute schema negotiation > * Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise= group > and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim- > pam as a ba= se) Nit. s/using draft-grizzle-scim-pam as a base/, based on [draft-grizzle-sc= im-pam]/ for consistency with the style of "based on [draft-... ]" used abo= ve In addition to this charter prose above, explicit milestones will be needed= . Ideally this would enumerate each document that's planned to be made; it= 's proposed status; and rough date associated with either it going to WGLC = or the IESG. For example, "2023-Jun: (Informational) Revision of RFC7642 t= o WGLC". There is no prescribed format here beyond a date and text blob. Regards, Roman > Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs) From nobody Thu Sep 30 07:56:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: scim@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD31E3A0CED for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=seicmu.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 989UVZjaYAvO for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from USG02-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.office365.us (mail-bn3usg02on0099.outbound.protection.office365.us [23.103.208.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 077783A0CEB for ; 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Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:56:14 +0000 From: Roman Danyliw To: "scim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft charter is now in the datatracker Thread-Index: Ade2CsQf/zMh2uHxQNOvUVAGJ9mv5g== Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:56:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cert.org; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5b92d674-bf2f-43b0-dc44-08d98422734b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN1P110MB002: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: cert.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN1P110MB0939.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5b92d674-bf2f-43b0-dc44-08d98422734b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Sep 2021 14:56:14.6612 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 95a9dce2-04f2-4043-995d-1ec3861911c6 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1P110MB002 Archived-At: Subject: [scim] Draft charter is now in the datatracker X-BeenThere: scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:56:35 -0000 Hi! Based on the iterative refinements and feedback, the latest charter version= is now in the datatracker -- https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf= -scim/. The draft milestones should also be loaded shortly. Re-opening th= e SCIM WG with this charter (perhaps with slight revision if needed) will b= e brought to the IESG for initial review on October 7. Regards, Roman