From nobody Fri Aug 1 00:19:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A4D1A041B for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TiWy2vhHvWdw for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 00:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out61-ams.mf.surf.net (out61-ams.mf.surf.net [145.0.1.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB21F1A00B9 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 00:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXEDGE01.ad.utwente.nl (exedge01.ad.utwente.nl [130.89.5.48]) by outgoing3-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id s717LRfQ030242; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:21:27 +0200 Received: from EXHUB02.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.4.229) by EXEDGE01.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.5.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:19:27 +0200 Received: from EXMBX24.ad.utwente.nl ([169.254.4.146]) by EXHUB02.ad.utwente.nl ([130.89.4.229]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:19:23 +0200 From: To: , Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: Ac+oNgYu6zahOfNRTeCR5eriC3FgfAFItoAQ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 07:19:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> In-Reply-To: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Accept-Language: nl-NL, en-US Content-Language: nl-NL X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [94.64.32.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: utwente-out:default, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=130.89.5.48; country=NL; region=Provincie Overijssel; city=Enschede; latitude=52.2195; longitude=6.8912; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2195,6.8912&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: utwente-out:default (inherits from utwente:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0bMxjlr5q - 8b556c5a42af - 20140801 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/GA8L6ZUlyHJLzLsOprkQYjVhX5g Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 07:19:28 -0000 Hi Dan, Please note that I have read the draft and I am willing to send comments to= the RTGWG list. Please note, however, that this will happen after the 15th of August, since= I am now on holidays. Best regards, Georgios ________________________________________ Van: sdn [sdn-bounces@irtf.org] namens King, Daniel [d.king@lancaster.ac.uk= ] Verzonden: vrijdag 25 juli 2014 20:27 Aan: 'sdn@irtf.org' CC: adrian@olddog.co.uk Onderwerp: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Hi SDN RG'rs, The authors of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture are in the process of= requesting AD-sponsored publication of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architect= ure: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture This I-D is a bit of an architecture and a bit an applicability statement. = It has been presented in SDNRG a couple of times. The last call will obviously pop out sometime, but it would be nice to have= review comments before then. Perhaps you could send your comments to the a= uthors or to the RTGWG list rather than clogging this list with discussion = of an IETF draft. Thanks, Dan= From nobody Fri Aug 1 11:49:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30ED81A0378 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xlzXZKHET6z6 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DBF61A0303 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id x13so4720484wgg.7 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:48:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=fVcDyJ1j0tJe+xNGFgo+PqQPHlHLXK/tsU9R2CdA7wA=; b=0HJZgbcsMHcIw90GB+rTKgTQw36jJBwySb/e9nXh8XfqC6jnfuK8Wv8VLSR2iN3vOq 9X+nAkBXOUR/8BQKaXzpNrgCFuwQX3lMEGnjccRfPj8gDPZbyLAfM3CLCtVth1OqzPZe k/mDbcj2+Qea5XZrUk1WTKA8El8RBvcAsC1z/CcyftQcfzT+pUl7B4+wRea/6QLpAF32 Z/mDS5sbQ0KNc+4cdNobYoL2JD0XuoTKxRGiHsi7ddJfQ4zcNluyzKdbz6+R19e3rjW/ 3DxxJctXs7S1NL/Or3+4gkvuOwJ5N9oqaTiD07O7n25PenVKbUBt0LaOcY0J3XIjezIr Ej6Q== X-Received: by 10.194.22.194 with SMTP id g2mr10793293wjf.30.1406918929589; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EhalepXPS (ppp079166109112.access.hol.gr. [79.166.109.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ja13sm11201789wic.8.2014.08.01.11.48.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Haleplidis Evangelos" To: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 21:48:48 +0300 Message-ID: <00a201cfadb9$3bc0a670$b341f350$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac+tuKm3HGRptAs1RAO1RE3gRrbpAgAAD0WA Content-Language: el Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/fIZovhXyZoepE7F5B2mJXSMB-0s Subject: [Sdn] FW: New Version Notification for draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 18:49:00 -0000 Greetings to the list, We have made an new version based on the discussion and the requests we = had at the meeting at the IETF in London. Regards,=09 Evangelos Haleplidis. > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 9:39 PM > To: Evangelos Haleplidis; Spyros Denazis; Odysseas Koufopavlou; David > Meyer; Kostas Pentikousis; Jamal Hadi Salim; David Meyer; Jamal Hadi > Salim; Evangelos Haleplidis; Spyros Denazis; Kostas Pentikousis; > Odysseas Koufopavlou > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer- > terminology-07.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > has been successfully submitted by Evangelos Haleplidis and posted to > the IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology > Revision: 07 > Title: SDN Layers and Architecture Terminology > Document date: 2014-08-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 32 > URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminol= ogy-07.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology= / > Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07 > Diff: = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminolo= gy-07 >=20 > Abstract: > Software-Defined Networking (SDN) can be defined as a new approach > for network programmability. Network programmability in this > context > refers to the capacity to initialize, control, change, and manage > network behavior dynamically via open interfaces as opposed to > relying on closed-box solutions and their associated proprietary > interfaces. SDN emphasizes the role of software in running = networks > through the introduction of an abstraction for the data forwarding > plane and, by doing so, separates it from the control plane. This > separation allows faster innovation cycles at both planes as > experience has already shown. However, there is increasing > confusion > as to what exactly SDN is, what is the layer structure in an SDN > architecture and how do layers interface with each other. This > document aims to answer these questions and provide a concise > reference document for SDNRG, in particular, and the SDN community, > in general, based on relevant peer-reviewed literature and = documents > in the RFC series. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat From nobody Fri Aug 1 11:50:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0E11B28A2 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:50:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DIAHHjH0bCdi for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f45.google.com (mail-qa0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 771731A0378 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id cm18so4342349qab.32 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=z0eSQO7an+alkAvXcGY438tNPtUKpUAj0clNHJHGZIU=; b=H12msvxowVhmKwE4kM/dRO1X+SmlTnv3WDSo00iZp2DF3yYCICjhuKieFJDrBgR2v0 ZUrS8ofT8vflkINKon292NDB2NCAbamnmlEX1X3TKvBSWmGtbjC9HByTZkRdtwtT3zxJ u512yeFn2UKfWHN+qkoq1J7QrsUow+bmgZXV4mM8UtypYRrU8dhVw8KvBmeXnkHuuJqn eZCcY+pc3uxgIWOWn+CrqeLh7RV2jtzfntvQ9g2Yq6UgMPDtOw3qypvUfrBs8sultObR zUAIJRGVk9ZKwEUE9b+ZaJKt1cqHPKlk2gD5Dc9YlDqfhdIy+aoGQWjHAqXL6vq3Ovjo I70w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmbswrj2E6JYqhFtJu8vkpt3gswEkdem64Z0SKQgJ/kgU0OiyxQnYT8npSMb1Il2MhaZkmU MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.166.69 with SMTP id l5mr11775384qay.54.1406919019698; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:468:d01:9c::80df:9cfd] Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:50:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: SDN IRTF list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c246f865b4d404ff95dcea Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/iCEulW37Zu1gJySX3OVzN4rk0Cg Subject: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 18:50:25 -0000 --001a11c246f865b4d404ff95dcea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Folks, As you may have see a new version of draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list Thanks, --dmm [0] http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt --001a11c246f865b4d404ff95dcea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,

As you may have see a new versio= n of draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which inc= orporates comments from the list and from Toronto. =C2=A0I want to start a = "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.= 2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list

Thanks,

--dmm
--001a11c246f865b4d404ff95dcea-- From nobody Mon Aug 4 03:41:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290911B29D8 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 03:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qbr7WjiZsJDS for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 03:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.ugent.be (smtp3.ugent.be [157.193.49.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0861B29CF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 03:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mcheck3.ugent.be [157.193.71.89]) by smtp3.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B85C4A4 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by UGent DICT Received: from smtp3.ugent.be ([IPv6:::ffff:157.193.49.127]) by localhost (mcheck3.UGent.be [::ffff:157.193.43.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jG1uPSBf98kR for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail2.intec.ugent.be (mail2.intec.ugent.be [157.193.214.245]) by smtp3.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E340C487 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.intec.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13E024 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at intec.ugent.be Received: from mail2.intec.ugent.be ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.intec.ugent.be [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmYHOA5rQWni for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [157.193.135.212] (dhcp-zdpt-212.intec.ugent.be [157.193.135.212]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dstaesse) by mail2.intec.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA16522 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:41:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53DF6352.5060301@intec.ugent.be> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 12:41:22 +0200 From: Dimitri Staessens User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sdn@irtf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060909090906080800050106" X-Miltered: at jchkm1 with ID 53DF6354.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://helpdesk.ugent.be/email/)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 53DF6354.000 from mail2.intec.ugent.be/mail2.intec.ugent.be/157.193.214.245/mail2.intec.ugent.be/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 53DF6354.000 on smtp3.ugent.be : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/njiRLenA4yLmP9djc61qwtyscdA Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 10:41:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060909090906080800050106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, some comments on the BFD section 4.7. Aplogies if some of this sounds like nitpicking, but this is a terminology document after all: ... between two forwarding elements . RFC 5880 states "adjacent" and I'd use that term here as well: ... between two adjacent forwarding elements. directly connected may be misinterpreted to meaning they have a direct physical interconnection. Then the sentence BFD provides low-overhead detection of faults even on physical media that do not support failure detection of any kind, such as Ethernet, virtual circuits, tunnels and MPLS Label Switched Paths. contains a lot of dubious statements. Virtual circuits, tunnels and LSP's can are not really "physical media". I would also remove the mention of Ethernet. I'm not aware of BFD that runs directly over Ethernet and can detect errors between Ethernet interfaces/switches (unless there is a version that I'm not aware of, in which case I do apologise). Suggestion: BFD provides a low-overhead solution for (end-to-end) detection of failures, even over technologies that have no or limited support to do so, such as virtual circuits, various L3/L4 tunnels and MPLS LSPs. Also note that BFD for MPLS is a different standard (RFC5884) than the one referenced. The last sentence (point 2.) doesn't completely sound "right" to me (but that can be me). Maybe we can just remove the subjective statement there: 2. As an application that runs on the device itself and uses the forwarding plane to send/receive BFD packets and update the operational plane resources accordingly. best wishes, Dimitri David Meyer schreef op 8/1/2014 8:50 PM: > Folks, > > As you may have see a new version of > draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start > a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on > 08.15.2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to > the list > > Thanks, > > --dmm > > > [0] http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn -- Dimitri Staessens Department of Information Technology Broadband Communication Networks (IBCN) Ghent University - iMinds Gaston Crommenlaan 8 (Bus 201), B-9050 Gent, Belgium T: +32 472 18 72 48; T Secr: +32 9 33 14900 F: +32 9 33 14899 Skype: dstaesse E: dimitri.staessens@intec.UGent.be W : www.ibcn.intec.UGent.be // www.iminds.be --------------060909090906080800050106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi guys,

some comments on the BFD section 4.7. Aplogies if some of this sounds like
nitpicking, but this is a terminology document after all:

    ... between two forwarding elements <which are directly connected>.

RFC 5880 states "adjacent" and I'd use that term here as well:

    ... between two adjacent forwarding elements.

directly connected may be misinterpreted to meaning they have a direct
physical interconnection.

Then the sentence

    BFD provides low-overhead detection of faults even on physical media
    that do not support failure detection of any kind, such as Ethernet,
    virtual circuits, tunnels and MPLS Label Switched Paths.

contains a lot of dubious statements. Virtual circuits, tunnels and LSP's can
are not really "physical media". I would also remove the mention of
Ethernet. I'm not aware of BFD that runs directly over Ethernet and can detect
errors between Ethernet interfaces/switches (unless there is a version that I'm
not aware of, in which case I do apologise).

Suggestion:

    BFD provides a low-overhead solution for (end-to-end) detection of failures,
    even over technologies that have no or limited support to do so, such as
    virtual circuits, various L3/L4 tunnels and MPLS LSPs.

Also note that BFD for MPLS is a different standard (RFC5884) than the one
referenced.

The last sentence (point 2.) doesn't completely sound "right" to me (but that can
be me). Maybe we can just remove the subjective statement there:

    2. As an application that runs on the device itself and uses the
    forwarding plane to send/receive BFD packets and update the operational
    plane resources accordingly.

best wishes,

Dimitri


David Meyer schreef op 8/1/2014 8:50 PM:
Folks,

As you may have see a new version of draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want to start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list

Thanks,

--dmm




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-- 
Dimitri Staessens
Department of Information Technology
Broadband Communication Networks (IBCN)
Ghent University - iMinds
Gaston Crommenlaan 8 (Bus 201), B-9050 Gent, Belgium
T: +32 472 18 72 48; T Secr: +32 9 33 14900
F: +32 9 33 14899
Skype: dstaesse
E: dimitri.staessens@intec.UGent.be
W : www.ibcn.intec.UGent.be // www.iminds.be
--------------060909090906080800050106-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 10:43:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DE51B2A95 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rE1BF3GvT_vc for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.ugent.be (smtp2.ugent.be [157.193.49.126]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF9E1B2A53 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mcheck2.ugent.be [157.193.49.249]) by smtp2.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4D712C574 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by UGent DICT Received: from smtp2.ugent.be ([IPv6:::ffff:157.193.49.126]) by localhost (mcheck2.UGent.be [::ffff:157.193.43.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xyWZI0TT0UiA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail2.intec.ugent.be (mail2.intec.ugent.be [157.193.214.245]) by smtp2.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69D812C572 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.intec.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB5124 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at intec.ugent.be Received: from mail2.intec.ugent.be ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.intec.ugent.be [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tpe7ULDFBt9W for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.233] (78-21-4-17.access.telenet.be [78.21.4.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dstaesse) by mail2.intec.ugent.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B49F122 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:43:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53E117BD.8080503@intec.ugent.be> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:43:25 +0200 From: Dimitri Staessens User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sdn@irtf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070309070708040103000205" X-Miltered: at jchkm1 with ID 53E117BF.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://helpdesk.ugent.be/email/)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 53E117BF.002 from mail2.intec.ugent.be/mail2.intec.ugent.be/157.193.214.245/mail2.intec.ugent.be/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 53E117BF.002 on smtp2.ugent.be : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/stob6O0mHqNi97oV_vNsA0V7ulk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:43:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070309070708040103000205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, had a thorough read of the document. First of all, I'd like to commend the authors on the work on this nice document, which is as audacious in scope as it is relevant in time. Some suggestions up to section 2, which could be implemented to further improve the document: Abstract: . remove comma's: ...for SDNRG in particular, and the SDN community in general, based on relevant peer-reviewed literature and documents in the RFC series. Section 2: . Software-Defined Networking (SDN) - A programmable networks approach -> would it be wrong to say "any programmable networks approach"? . Definition of interface could use some tweaking. Is a software API really "a point of interaction between two entities"? I think this could mention Object Request Brokers (ORBs) for distributed systems ("a network protocol" is very broad). IPC for a single system (I'd use on the same/a single system instead of "same physical location") should be mentioned too (maybe instead of API, I'm not sure an API qualifies here). . Definition of Application: This definition needs a bit more work. "An application in the context of SDN is a piece of software that utilizes underlying services to perform a function." This is really saying everything and nothing. What are the underlying services? What function? I would not use "piece of software" but rather "program" (meaning that at least it executes and halts). . Why are the forwarding plane and operational plane "parts of the network device" and the control and management planes "part of the network functionalities"? Why not define them as a "collection of functions"? E.g. Forwarding plane (FP): the collection of functions across all network devices, usually implemented in hardware, that are responsible for forwarding traffic. Operational plane (OP): the collection of functions, usually implemented in software, that are responsible for managing the overall operation of individual network devices. Sidenote: Maybe this can be classified as a subset of the management plane. But I can certainly find myself in Kostas' arguments to having an "Operational plane". Control plane (CP): the collection of functions responsible for controlling one or more network devices. CP instructs network devices with respect to how to process and forward packets. The control plane interacts primarily with the forwarding plane and to a lesser extent with the operational plane. It is usually implemented in software, and can be implemented as a logically centralized entity or a distributed system. Management plane (MP): the collection of network functions responsible for monitoring, configuring and maintaining one or more network devices. The management plane is mostly related with the operational plane and less with the forwarding plane. Remark: in the MP definition may still be a bit ambiguous. The demarcation between CP and MP should be crystal clear. Thought: Why is there no Operational Abstraction Layer (OAL)? take care, Dimitri David Meyer schreef op 8/1/2014 8:50 PM: > Folks, > > As you may have see a new version of > draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start > a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on > 08.15.2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to > the list > > Thanks, > > --dmm > > > [0] http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn -- Dimitri Staessens Department of Information Technology Broadband Communication Networks (IBCN) Ghent University - iMinds Gaston Crommenlaan 8 (Bus 201), B-9050 Gent, Belgium T: +32 472 18 72 48; T Secr: +32 9 33 14900 F: +32 9 33 14899 Skype: dstaesse E: dimitri.staessens@intec.UGent.be W : www.ibcn.intec.UGent.be // www.iminds.be --------------070309070708040103000205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi guys,

had a thorough read of the document. First of all, I'd like to commend the authors on the
work on this nice  document, which is as audacious in scope as it is relevant in time.

Some suggestions up to section 2, which could be implemented to further
improve the document:

Abstract:
• remove comma's:
    ...for SDNRG in particular, and the SDN community in general,
    based on relevant peer-reviewed literature and documents
    in the RFC series.
   
Section 2:
• Software-Defined Networking (SDN) - A programmable networks
      approach
->  would it be wrong to say "any programmable networks approach"?

• Definition of interface could use some tweaking. Is a software API really
"a point of interaction between two entities"? I think this could mention
Object Request Brokers (ORBs) for distributed systems ("a network protocol"
is very broad). IPC for a single system (I'd use on the same/a single system instead of
"same physical location") should be mentioned too (maybe instead of API, I'm not
sure an API qualifies here).

• Definition of Application: This definition needs a bit more work. "An application in
the context of SDN is a piece of software that utilizes underlying services to perform
 a function." This is really saying everything and nothing. What are the underlying services?
 What function? I would not use "piece of software" but rather "program" (meaning that at
least it executes and halts).

• Why are the forwarding plane and operational plane "parts of the network device" and the control
and management planes "part of the network functionalities"?

Why not define them as a "collection of functions"? E.g.

Forwarding plane (FP): the collection of functions across all network devices, usually implemented
in hardware, that are responsible for forwarding traffic.

Operational plane (OP): the collection of functions, usually implemented
in software, that are responsible for managing the overall operation of individual network devices.
Sidenote: Maybe this can be classified as a subset of the management plane. But
I can certainly find myself in Kostas' arguments to having an "Operational plane".

Control plane (CP): the collection of functions responsible for controlling one or more
network devices. CP instructs network devices with respect to how to process and
forward packets. The control plane interacts primarily with the forwarding plane
and to a lesser extent with the operational plane. It is usually implemented in software, and can
be implemented as a logically centralized entity or a distributed system.

Management plane (MP): the collection of network functions
responsible for monitoring, configuring and maintaining one or
 more network devices.  The management plane is mostly related with
 the operational plane and less with the forwarding plane.
 
Remark: <configuring> in the MP definition may still be a bit ambiguous. The demarcation
between CP and MP should be crystal clear.

Thought: Why is there no Operational Abstraction Layer (OAL)?

take care,

Dimitri

David Meyer schreef op 8/1/2014 8:50 PM:
Folks,

As you may have see a new version of draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want to start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list

Thanks,

--dmm




_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn



-- 
Dimitri Staessens
Department of Information Technology
Broadband Communication Networks (IBCN)
Ghent University - iMinds
Gaston Crommenlaan 8 (Bus 201), B-9050 Gent, Belgium
T: +32 472 18 72 48; T Secr: +32 9 33 14900
F: +32 9 33 14899
Skype: dstaesse
E: dimitri.staessens@intec.UGent.be
W : www.ibcn.intec.UGent.be // www.iminds.be
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PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+ DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRp dj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPlswXSZuYnNwOzxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvaWQvZHJhZnQtaGFsZXBsaWRpcy1zZG5yZy1sYXllci10ZXJtaW5vbG9neS0wNy50eHQi Pmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWQvZHJhZnQtaGFsZXBsaWRpcy1zZG5yZy1sYXllci10ZXJt aW5vbG9neS0wNy50eHQ8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AEeusaamb105erics_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 00:36:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71D11B2CB2 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 00:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SB1B1rv7LLu5 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 00:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22f.google.com (mail-ie0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87F881A04D2 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 00:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f175.google.com with SMTP id x19so2324927ier.6 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:35:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=/LCnbx+POFVBD0nYsEZjci7QvWIPuW58O9hBU/lGGsQ=; b=T34H6MimpOgzMphGqO3tk7Xve9j01enf++4FjTFRrQd8bqr5y7bMXD9ihjz190ryqY D5oN7CSyzCkqoxigCEXgowq4yJk1WBtg/idA0lg7dIxE9/YLs2xt/DwAfbrrvq9wqnkA TP0PEtX/DMe2xqZZU2g/r+TnveyAj1woZC3p2W9mv8UIO3IdbZlVeC//pUxloIpDYpo6 B1chBU+RwfEZKLhXCT/8xSIRdhyCyd2rRmGchMVsheBfVUKvHe+ZHR6oclnde8LNV+dz 0wu6kGZcv9XDSZ5X4JBDUciCh5UCjh6Ujvf3vhU5cHCVdowMAKG+Y2h4YLWFLKsjQO6b VfsA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.64.77 with SMTP id f13mr12321092ici.72.1407310556796; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.128.99 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 00:35:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:35:56 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: XBtBUXr2zehrAlYeKIyI9P9mxAk Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: Dave Hood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/aqC59vZM3LZ9xvPkN728VfXVexU Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 07:35:59 -0000 Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now .... IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to this WG as an individual submission yet ? Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal is to state that SDN = ONF is not that helpful. Best, R. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote: > I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts of > https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > > > Dave > > > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > To: SDN IRTF list > Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > As you may have see a new version of > draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start a > "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. > Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > > > > Thanks, > > > > --dmm > > > > > > [0] http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > From nobody Wed Aug 6 05:06:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB5B1A0299 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:06:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1qjHKdiwnGGW for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FD5D1B29AA for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 85239120C7144; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:06:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.48]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s76C6BXW023740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:06:11 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70UWXCHHUB01.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.48]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:06:10 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: Robert Raszuk , Dave Hood Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecA== Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:06:09 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/ptzDy1SBrx3dK0iietHn64yvDBA Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:06:22 -0000 Dear all, Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the introdu= ction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "Su= rvey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of p= rominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic m= anner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN= Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will clear= ly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF= . =20 I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Arch= itecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft. = However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigorou= s treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO, a= t minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxonom= y be considered prior to last call. With best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM To: Dave Hood Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" ? = Leave alone their substance for now .... IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document yo= u are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to this = WG as an individual submission yet ? Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal i= s to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. Best, R. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote: > I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts=20 > of=20 > https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ > technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > > > Dave > > > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > To: SDN IRTF list > Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > As you may have see a new version of > draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=20 > incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start=20 > a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. > Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > > > > Thanks, > > > > --dmm > > > > > > [0]=20 > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Wed Aug 6 05:31:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0521B29D7 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:31:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yLizIDuQHO-v for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f173.google.com (mail-vc0-f173.google.com [209.85.220.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77E8D1B29C2 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id hy10so3848225vcb.18 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:30:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w1BXRyu0jlbWNr2MTv4mpm7Z+fGotAXBkJ/+qb1kw+8=; b=XLVhLj9XqInKyH1cbM8/SZS3JyPw5ytkfLLtijkg6/QJZzI+Ul6BOOnJ7XC9Aw7YBZ Qezj92uz4NHFssMnn6IBxF+T+nHLsaFxEmCVR1C4wPHo+gKODg/QAhQg7wFkmKui4b04 KyLrh33VkO9jwItq6HCg1FzRCCcGzJ/T1nJnUnMiC1fwbFXJyNylFde3LBj+pQBUmuu3 brNpF0uYpxzB9Mjz2KEE9M0cSLrvZMpCm9w4iz43KryZ3fy+gvs+J5nyC5q/hYOHOou8 m3EE+zPCXhC3WyS4jKpXvWnKgjOkZ8rve51+awVGH6E/kE0EEtnK++ncWkJDN74nL66Z dhSg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnIkMuPWfi24cx2Sqmz4npjhDpN+ub2l0MkoJE2pC7cYFtbOLq8Gm64HjY6hxAGLZ5Rb861 X-Received: by 10.52.83.227 with SMTP id t3mr8730050vdy.20.1407328259411; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:30:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.208.107 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:30:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> From: Jamal Hadi Salim Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:30:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/DF7DOWGZT_ePr-oIrCk96dIwpAE Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:31:03 -0000 I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives them very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. It is am= using that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF an= d SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document. cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-= sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts >> of >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ >> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start >> a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Wed Aug 6 05:36:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3593C1B29BD for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XW92dOpZFokt for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B17231B29B2 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id at20so2734673iec.36 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=KtuR5Xvru2nQ3JEfyfCiIOve6gigoSqJ1yJ551aqROA=; b=iaRJVBa55la9hR6uedC6X17OZSzMqCNhnoEW+xXubf+SCTt/Hht3xgM1Gc6aE86z0W p4mOYTtGtNCImlFFhy2lee5pZJE4L1LVFNoISfjGaFuYsWCwX0YXvn+giYMgnsIyIzrJ n6i9t/32LlW9qJkGRDe7RYWTJiHNIbbhfNs0q43GfyhD9Wo7maAk+ha/MV8oGjA5jGMK pVjoDQoJ2Iw8C4wL5mw5CuA4YeQ6ZQOgCvE/HU4OT6EfCKVpxlIuyELK5Q4zktEBWapn WKDJ4ELhrBqK+jc7qEzyACXa/9Sen1N6+/chhzUdueGuUJZnsnPuGOQoDNrS0T6y4IrS lOyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.79.135 with SMTP id j7mr17978490igx.9.1407328608995; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.32.141 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.32.141 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 14:36:48 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tqBTb-pU1Hqb5Y_kFweAZtAhEB8 Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: Jamal Hadi Salim Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122a754d26d1004fff53966 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/DfZOz2yWrfCdWbntJkkkvWTSLlI Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , "Varma, Eve L \(Eve\)" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:36:52 -0000 --089e0122a754d26d1004fff53966 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I am not sure if other approches in the view of ONF are low or high profile. But I am sure they are all considered LEGACY ;))) R. On Aug 6, 2014 2:31 PM, "Jamal Hadi Salim" wrote: > I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a > document > that is known to exist. We should reference the document. > > However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim > non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it > gives them very > low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. It is > amusing > that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF > and > SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document. > > cheers, > jamal > > [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to > promote > technologies around OF. > According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been > standardized > is OF. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the > introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter > named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better > understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and > business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural > concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this > document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to > indicate that SDN=ONF. > > > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more > rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. > IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the > taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > > > > With best regards, > > Eve > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > > To: Dave Hood > > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" > ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document > you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to > this WG as an individual submission yet ? > > > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main > goal is to state that SDN = ONF is not that helpful. > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: > >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts > >> of > >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ > >> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > >> To: SDN IRTF list > >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > >> > >> > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> As you may have see a new version of > >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start > >> a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. > >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> --dmm > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [0] > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sdn mailing list > >> sdn@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > --089e0122a754d26d1004fff53966 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am not sure if other approches in the view of ONF are low = or high profile.

But I am sure they are all considered=C2=A0 LEGACY ;)))

R.

On Aug 6, 2014 2:31 PM, "Jamal Hadi Salim&q= uot; <hadi@mojatatu.com> wro= te:
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t
that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim
non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it
gives them very
low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. It is am= using
that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF an= d
SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te
technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed
is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve)
<eve.varma@alcatel-lucen= t.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and= business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architec= tural concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. =C2=A0A re= ad of this document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from try= ing to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associa= ted terminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list = of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.= ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt
>
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the conc= epts
>> of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/st= ories/downloads/sdn-resources/
>> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-= sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. =C2=A0I want= to start
>> a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PD= T on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-= sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
--089e0122a754d26d1004fff53966-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 05:42:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E361B29FC for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:42:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UYTNWGG-CdzJ for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16EC1A0004 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hq11so3874604vcb.2 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=bDzd0Zjt+5ZaHPISJWqWS6gP5cKmwjVLk1w2gPuKxSM=; b=iR4mcBdJYF/mqfKzShWpz/4QipHd8zne5HVFJTojU4ffEDFDVeayQX+fFx7iDG7DhO W8IkJKz72J1jaJZDdygzexqWviBMLnsWFFXMIVJEE4/rwE2rzSX6JZANsB51ABO9o0Pm wGqOzoZ/UA5kwzalgRAwLl1KjMuhsUaGrd5WCdr5/ByGgLLRTK6PwtxwYU2o+95YR+1C SN9TLn/NGMU0aNXz5MycwtDZslWObkZr/+mgK5A6tZV+0kuVq374O7HbNFXVfRWS1JGs RJ6cTlRXBZZREHK9A1hDm5AMMGT1maPCqz5ngqjfQydaIrnBCdCDwmSzdjtegBtZ7KsX 2yaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnw50WX5OqaWaqMBbcbET5LxQDpHi+TUGsGhFiy6bk297WRa0q+6HJY+65lAklaxpOVxwgm X-Received: by 10.220.122.132 with SMTP id l4mr10121385vcr.41.1407328927665; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 05:42:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.208.107 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:41:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> From: Jamal Hadi Salim Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:41:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/EypyUMIje5OZDozASY1tXrzb7wI Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , "Varma, Eve L \(Eve\)" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:42:11 -0000 Well, if it doesnt use OF it is CRAP[1]. cheers, jamal [1]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgzfxs_if-it-s-not-scottish-it-s-crap_shortfilms On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > I am not sure if other approches in the view of ONF are low or high profile. > > But I am sure they are all considered LEGACY ;))) > > R. > > On Aug 6, 2014 2:31 PM, "Jamal Hadi Salim" wrote: >> >> I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a >> document >> that is known to exist. We should reference the document. >> >> However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim >> non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it >> gives them very >> low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. It is >> amusing >> that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF >> and >> SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document. >> >> cheers, >> jamal >> >> [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to >> promote >> technologies around OF. >> According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been >> standardized >> is OF. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) >> wrote: >> > Dear all, >> > >> > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the >> > introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter >> > named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better >> > understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and >> > business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural >> > concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this >> > document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to >> > indicate that SDN=ONF. >> > >> > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN >> > Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the >> > draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more >> > rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. >> > IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the >> > taxonomy be considered prior to last call. >> > >> > With best regards, >> > Eve >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM >> > To: Dave Hood >> > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list >> > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >> > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> > >> > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" >> > ? Leave alone their substance for now .... >> > >> > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document >> > you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to this >> > WG as an individual submission yet ? >> > >> > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main >> > goal is to state that SDN = ONF is not that helpful. >> > >> > Best, >> > R. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood >> > wrote: >> >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts >> >> of >> >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ >> >> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer >> >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> >> To: SDN IRTF list >> >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start >> >> a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on >> >> 08.15.2014. >> >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> sdn mailing list >> >> sdn@irtf.org >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sdn mailing list >> > sdn@irtf.org >> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sdn mailing list >> > sdn@irtf.org >> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Wed Aug 6 06:30:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70C71A0B0A for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:30:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6i7-JP5MW_5O for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E0BC1B2A06 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id A5587106E5452; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:30:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.35]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s76DU9Rh017163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:30:10 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.35]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:30:09 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: Jamal Hadi Salim Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPA= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:30:09 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/zz3pObswZtwbb-V0fxARUdgeOZs Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:30:18 -0000 I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date). Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= . cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for=20 > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the=20 >> concepts of=20 >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=20 >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to=20 >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15= .2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Wed Aug 6 06:31:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A44C1B2A06 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lHd5P6GWHC8q for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10E661A0B10 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79916d00000623a-65-53e1d80b0f41 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 49.B0.25146.B08D1E35; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB105.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.122]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:31:18 -0400 From: Dave Hood To: Jamal Hadi Salim , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl5Hqd0FUJfYEiHbNumG0SDoJvCus9AgAC+6gCAAEt/gIAABtcAgAABuQCAAAFlgP//ynog Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47BCB0@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:31:25 -0000 SSBhbSBpbiBubyBwb3NpdGlvbiB0byBzcGVhayBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgT05GLCBidXQgSSBjYW4g YXNzdXJlIHlvdSB0aGF0IHRoZSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgZG9lcyBub3QgcHJlc3VwcG9zZSBhbnl0 aGluZyB1bmlxdWUgdG8gT05GLiBQbGVhc2UgcmVhZCBpdCBiZWZvcmUganVtcGluZyB0byBjb25j bHVzaW9ucy4NCg0KRGF2ZQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogSmFt YWwgSGFkaSBTYWxpbSBbbWFpbHRvOmhhZGlAbW9qYXRhdHUuY29tXSANClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2Rh eSwgQXVndXN0IDA2LCAyMDE0IDU6NDIgQU0NClRvOiBSb2JlcnQgUmFzenVrDQpDYzogVmFybWEs IEV2ZSBMIChFdmUpOyBTRE4gSVJURiBsaXN0OyBEYXZpZCBNZXllcjsgRGF2ZSBIb29kDQpTdWJq ZWN0OiBSZTogW1Nkbl0gTGFzdCBjYWxsIGZvciBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2lkL2RyYWZ0 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<6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 06:41:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135208a9f099f04fff6203e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/XxKwJmY2ftu6WXqzgRQ-MJZkDuM Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:41:26 -0000 --001a1135208a9f099f04fff6203e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the > introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter > named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better > understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and > business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural > concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this > document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to > indicate that SDN=ONF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more > rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. > IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the > taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > I'm sure we can change to that citation if you folks think its more recent/relevant. --dmm > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" ? > Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document > you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to > this WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal > is to state that SDN = ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote: > > I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts > > of > > https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ > > technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > > To: SDN IRTF list > > Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > As you may have see a new version of > > draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > > incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to start > > a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15.2014. > > Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > --dmm > > > > > > > > > > > > [0] > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > --001a1135208a9f099f04fff6203e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve= .varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Dear all,

Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the introdu= ction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter name= d "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better und= erstanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and busi= ness-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural= concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. =C2=A0A read of= this document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying t= o indicate that SDN=3DONF.

I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation, &quo= t;SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references = in the draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent and pro= vides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated t= erminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of re= ferences, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call.

I'm sure we can change to that citatio= n if you folks think its more recent/relevant.

--dmm


With best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----
From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.= org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
To: Dave Hood
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.= org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel &qu= ot;concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....

IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document yo= u are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to this = WG as an individual submission yet ?

Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal i= s to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.

Best,
R.



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the concepts=
> of
> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/storie= s/downloads/sdn-resources/
> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
> To: SDN IRTF list
> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnr= g-layer-terminology-07.txt
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> As you may have see a new version of
> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which
> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. =C2=A0I want to = start
> a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on= 08.15.2014.
> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> --dmm
>
>
>
>
>
> [0]
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnr= g-layer-terminology-07.txt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

--001a1135208a9f099f04fff6203e-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 08:25:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6441B27E8 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ul_mY-KQ0diS for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f41.google.com (mail-qa0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92C221B2811 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id j7so2612182qaq.0 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=G4ZVso/hsLTjSQ7fb/fVaLY5yOX40wiPt+gK6iCH7uQ=; b=c74xw4jlbQbkC+jYUDTco8/2/2GFpwvux15eHB9s/tPDBMHuglK/2PZsIxPs3gklF5 x8mTU9cnWnD/JzgdPZ67VeSW6kqQ7H6OdNX6Qc9YJmo6GnNtZpXwpbB/eQB3K4Hsw0+x WKWjfw+9QPZabkhr1jVY57oqvuWD/9bSpJm6oUID0QILLbZHRHBk8IJPjjspYehgV35a rGxicQZvE6d+6MLvzRbrRG/wVjEqPH6RpiCYBqlslIAqia9miyUJydh3V6JuIgEa43m1 aEc3BIIY7w9opaDUuAdcjYxn2I6H/hG9gh+ELopWbRwcCYhAvJjfn196YL+64DhdSVJN HAHg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmMWMcA/UEuo7kvGdBX7JTJoB5bDdIoK5D0BAN9+PjPxpf0kx9utKrFeflZzShnEvLfZgbx MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.81.51 with SMTP id e48mr4367445qgd.31.1407338695142; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:468:d01:9c::80df:9cfd] In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:24:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c121be00c95b04fff793eb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/llNoTqdYs0Gmrtjqi3BSHTBOOxc Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:25:00 -0000 --001a11c121be00c95b04fff793eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical > content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF > biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion > expressed in the discussion to date). > Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between an open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by definition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern). That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation like [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that. --dmm [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > Best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a > document that is known to exist. We should reference the document. > > However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim > non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives > them very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the > draft. It is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document > show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft > document. > > cheers, > jamal > > [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to > promote technologies around OF. > According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been > standardized is OF. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < > eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the > introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter > named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better > understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and > business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural > concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this > document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to > indicate that SDN=ONF. > > > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more > rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. > IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the > taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > > > > With best regards, > > Eve > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > > To: Dave Hood > > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" > ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document > you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to > this WG as an individual submission yet ? > > > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main > goal is to state that SDN = ONF is not that helpful. > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: > >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the > >> concepts of > >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources > >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > >> To: SDN IRTF list > >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx > >> t > >> > >> > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> As you may have see a new version of > >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to > >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on > 08.15.2014. > >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> --dmm > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [0] > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx > >> t > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sdn mailing list > >> sdn@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > --001a11c121be00c95b04fff793eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve= .varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I would suggest to focus examination of the document towar= ds its technical content - entering into a debate re whether or not the mat= erial is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in op= inion expressed in the discussion to date).

Folks need also to realize the deep and fu= ndamental differences between an open participation organization like the I= {E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things= that information flow is by definition uni-directional. In particular, inf= ormation can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in thos= e cases in which ONF members are interested in commenting (just like anyone= else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no m= eans in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a cruci= al distinction and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates a= nd how we build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most r= ecent work as opposed to the citation we currently have if you folks think = that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an =C2=A0issu= e with the stability of a citation like [0] in a document that we are stand= ing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that.

--dmm


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----
From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.= org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= .

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and= business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architec= tural concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. =C2=A0A re= ad of this document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from try= ing to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associa= ted terminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list = of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnr= g-layer-terminology-07.txt
>
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/sto= ries/downloads/sdn-resources
>> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-s= dnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx
>> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. =C2=A0I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-s= dnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx
>> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

--001a11c121be00c95b04fff793eb-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 08:34:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0DB1B27C8 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:34:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ef_8Taz99k9J for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FE701B282F for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18844; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407339280; x=1408548880; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=n356fFPO7zDSeR70JG1Wqxo+eb1vNxs6SU0xLcvuBYA=; b=OcA0fKUOjyrlcFs+VU462QqWQSjD3nMxXd9FkunXyBcJhcL+AfBXct35 uh5JhqYAI1m+y9rwOCudgOUDnnNE8PWKXPVxMmoeE53RzrverzRESXVbl cYyKOhMFhUnenb+1iMq585ZIuDcVR+IyWxejzlvQ1vbi4qMSSb+IlIVXD s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AroJAL5K4lOtJV2P/2dsb2JhbABagkdGUlcEy0dUAQ2GcVMBgRQWd4QDAQEBAgIBAQEVBVEBCgwEAgEIDgMBAgEBAQEnBycLFAMGCAIEDgUJC4guDcMZF4l/hSsRDQQHBoRFBZBkiy6UZYIOgUZsAQGBRA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,812,1400025600"; d="scan'208,217";a="345536037" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2014 15:34:14 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s76FYEQ2016543 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 15:34:14 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.4.158]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:34:14 -0500 From: "Ken Gray (kegray)" To: David Meyer , "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrblcU4UzzZvwF0qbcVIrFY1nNpvDDycAgAB7VgCAAEt/gIAABtcAgAAQoYCAACAQAP//v4sA Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 15:34:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.98.159] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D007C3233CEF8kegrayciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/Bcl5nPA0qYZwKgUis9DA_4to234 Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:34:43 -0000 --_000_D007C3233CEF8kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance From: David Meyer > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" > Cc: SDN IRTF list >, Dave Hood >, Robert Raszuk >, Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date). Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between an = open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is p= ay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by defi= nition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the = I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are = interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As= a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide input to= the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that goes = to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and fo= r that matter, how we self-govern). That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the= citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'= ll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation li= ke [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we= need to look at that. --dmm [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/t= echnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Beh= alf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= . cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On B= ehalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >> concepts of >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On = Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15= .2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn --_000_D007C3233CEF8kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance

From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:= 24 AM
To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" = <eve.varma@alcatel-lucen= t.com>
Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.co= m>
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>




On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Ev= e) <eve.v= arma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date).

Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences betwee= n an open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF= is pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by= definition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments= above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested in commenting (= just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF partic= ipants have no means in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction a= nd one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build = documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed t= o the citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriat= e. I'll just mention that there is an  issue with the stability of a c= itation like [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that.

--dmm


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----
From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once= commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable= to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture document th= at Dave cited.  A read of this document will clearly illustrate that i= ts intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch]  Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft.  However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology.  IMHO, at minimum, it should be inc= luded in the list of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to la= st call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br> >
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources
>> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

 --_000_D007C3233CEF8kegrayciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 08:37:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE52D1B283B for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BXeyihh-4ZFf for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.eict.de (mx2.eict.de [212.91.241.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBC31B27C8 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mx2.eict.de (Postfix, from userid 481) id 6B0C91FF60; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:37:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.eict.de (mx1 [172.16.6.1]) by mx2.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B4C1FF5B; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:37:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sbs2008.eict.local (sbs2008.intern.eict.de [192.168.2.11]) by mail.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD4237838F; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:37:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298]) by SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298%13]) with mapi; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:37:35 +0200 From: Kostas Pentikousis To: Dimitri Staessens , "sdn@irtf.org" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:37:33 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: Ac+w36bhShhE9anaSCajVJALR9TJcgAoTrPg Message-ID: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4@SBS2008.eict.local> References: <53E117BD.8080503@intec.ugent.be> In-Reply-To: <53E117BD.8080503@intec.ugent.be> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4SBS2008eictlo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/f5elNUe9z6WkqVBW9_F28llo3hA Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:37:40 -0000 --_000_0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4SBS2008eictlo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Dimitri, all, Many thanks for the review and the thoughtful comments. Much appreciated. I= t should be straightforward to address them in the next revision, along wit= h the rest of the comments on the list till the end of the LC. Best regards, Kostas Von: Dimitri Staessens [mailto:dimitri.staessens@intec.ugent.be] Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. August 2014 19:43 An: sdn@irtf.org Betreff: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Hi guys, had a thorough read of the document. First of all, I'd like to commend the = authors on the work on this nice document, which is as audacious in scope as it is releva= nt in time. Some suggestions up to section 2, which could be implemented to further improve the document: --_000_0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4SBS2008eictlo_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Dimitri, all,

 

Many thanks for the review and the thoughtful comments. Mu= ch appreciated. It should be straightforward to address them in the next re= vision, along with the rest of the comments on the list till the end of the= LC.

&nb= sp;

Best regards,<= o:p>

 

Kostas

 <= /p>

 

Von:= Dimitri Staessens [mailto:dimitri.staessens@intec.ugent.be]
Gesende= t: Dienstag, 5. August 2014 19:43
An: sdn@irtf.org
Betr= eff: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

 

Hi guys,

had = a thorough read of the document. First of all, I'd like to commend the auth= ors on the
work on this nice  document, which is as audacious in s= cope as it is relevant in time.

Some suggestions = up to section 2, which could be implemented to further
improve the docu= ment:

<snip>

 

= --_000_0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4SBS2008eictlo_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 08:38:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AB01B283B for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W85YYgse3Bpp for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f47.google.com (mail-qa0-f47.google.com [209.85.216.47]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B4821B283A for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id i13so2572227qae.20 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=GHdnrsuAZJGPBIiXIuWKU3fsEbu+g4j6dvEKzT1tuHw=; b=X/PiBqQOxvx2d4wXhh2p9caEI9XgsS6eOO64TDX3j8lAjsG8EpiVMN0gePTkWw6xdT p0gW0gFhfA2qPeVQxLeX5g29u07VEEBOCQ17oFGcA90BCNFjHcQi1WrwRkv2ZhF4z8hR mzmQezqa7OChDMEI7QUZEFFPF3Lfg+iTrAN+0tZz4/G0KuDUkIzNCFxnvN7Duwqsqv+z sEuPZvesYWNlhOIwU6e7Kz1J2r5czZgvnws3xmNg4+/3zqn5u+roMggr2hrqEOEJKAMT 1sJNK3pLXsDK4saPul9pE8/D3pMvN4tjP7hH9zykXMGvFN3X/rxcsHhmCT9sxKAlUo+a Qmmw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnpDtSxJy6iAWhxfT/5S/D/JJBYfaRGZ56M37+t4cfCAJcI6EDh0SJns81cUnS0SuiPlD44 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.129.201 with SMTP id p9mr17985850qas.75.1407339509457; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:468:d01:9c::80df:9cfd] In-Reply-To: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4@SBS2008.eict.local> References: <53E117BD.8080503@intec.ugent.be> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7B4@SBS2008.eict.local> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:38:29 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: Kostas Pentikousis Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cc0a8a437104fff7c3dc Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/nVzH5aWX58ldyz2TL4DIIVCjv3k Cc: "sdn@irtf.org" , Dimitri Staessens Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:38:32 -0000 --001a11c2cc0a8a437104fff7c3dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Kostas Pentikousis wrote: > Dear Dimitri, all, > > > > Many thanks for the review and the thoughtful comments. Much appreciated. > It should be straightforward to address them in the next revision, along > with the rest of the comments on the list till the end of the LC. > Ditto, thx Dimitri/all. --dmm > > > Best regards, > > > > Kostas > > > > > > *Von:* Dimitri Staessens [mailto:dimitri.staessens@intec.ugent.be] > *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 5. August 2014 19:43 > *An:* sdn@irtf.org > *Betreff:* Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Hi guys, > > had a thorough read of the document. First of all, I'd like to commend the > authors on the > work on this nice document, which is as audacious in scope as it is > relevant in time. > > Some suggestions up to section 2, which could be implemented to further > improve the document: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > --001a11c2cc0a8a437104fff7c3dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Kostas Pentikousis <k.pentikou= sis@eict.de> wrote:

Dear Dimitri, all,

=C2= =A0

Many thanks for the review and the thoughtful comments. Much app= reciated. It should be straightforward to address them in the next revision= , along with the rest of the comments on the list till the end of the LC.


Ditto, thx Dimitri/all.
<= div>
--dmm
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best regar= ds,

=C2=A0

Kostas<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

Von: Dimitri Staessens [mailto:dimitri.staesse= ns@intec.ugent.be]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. August 2014 19:43
An: sdn@irtf.org
Betreff: Re= : [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draf= t-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

=C2=A0

Hi guys,

had a thorough read of the doc= ument. First of all, I'd like to commend the authors on the
work on= this nice=C2=A0 document, which is as audacious in scope as it is relevant= in time.

Some suggestions up to section 2, which could be i= mplemented to further
improve the document:

<snip>

=C2= =A0


__________________________= _____________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn


--001a11c2cc0a8a437104fff7c3dc-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 10:00:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D259B1A0AFF for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HM_8yBzd1gFi for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A45911A00BB for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 1B9163EC955B2; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 16:59:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s76GxqrM024270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:59:52 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.49]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:59:52 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: "Ken Gray (kegray)" , David Meyer Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPCAAGRBAIAAApqA///QX+A= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 16:59:51 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0US70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/w3syByyyw1jaamOfQSM-eHolcjI Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:00:06 -0000 --_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0US70UWXCHMBA03z_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Just a very quick comment - a number of organizations are also pay to play = (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison relationshi= ps where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual b= enefit. I'm not aware of any inherent reason why this could not also be do= ne with the ONF. With best regards, Eve From: Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance From: David Meyer > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" > Cc: SDN IRTF list >, Dave Hood >, Robert Raszuk >, Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date). Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between an = open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is p= ay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by defi= nition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the = I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are = interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As= a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide input to= the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that goes = to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and fo= r that matter, how we self-govern). That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the= citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'= ll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation li= ke [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we= need to look at that. --dmm [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/t= echnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Beh= alf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= . cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On B= ehalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >> concepts of >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On = Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15= .2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn --_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0US70UWXCHMBA03z_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

Just a very quick comment R= 11; a number of organizations are also pay to play (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF,= etc.) for which there are IETF liaison relationships where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual benefit.  I’m= not aware of any inherent reason why this could not also be done with the = ONF.

 

With best regards,<= /span>

Eve

 <= /p>

From: Ken Gray= (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM
To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-halepl= idis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

 

+1 on the fundamental di= stinction and it's importance

 

From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM
To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@e= ricsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.com>
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 = AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

I would suggest to focus exa= mination of the document towards its technical content - entering into a de= bate re whether or not the material is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed in the discussion= to date).

 

Folks need also to realize t= he deep and fundamental differences between an open participation organizat= ion like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by definition uni-= directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (c= f your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested = in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no m= eans in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a cruci= al distinction and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates a= nd how we build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

 

That said, I don't mind citi= ng the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the citation we currently have = if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an  issue with the stability of a citation like [0] in = a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to l= ook at that.

 

--dmm

 


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----

From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal = Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once= commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable= to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture document th= at Dave cited.  A read of this document will clearly illustrate that i= ts intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch]  Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft.  However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology.  IMHO, at minimum, it should be inc= luded in the list of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to la= st call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br> >
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources

>> / technical-reports= /TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf

>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

 

--_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0US70UWXCHMBA03z_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 10:06:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCFA1A0383 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:06:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.023 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.023 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GU7FVsquV65w for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-f50.google.com (mail-qg0-f50.google.com [209.85.192.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96FB11A03A4 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id q108so2965988qgd.23 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0VR67nRqSJTgTNa3dlMGe4kf3LGrDbPytn2dud6F1J4=; b=WknPYYrob0jDu3BbSaeNaP/qnl5F3nozRya0fHZConQkk24ALeKc9udAj+VLkS1B20 FyyBh0AJEEoT1trPYSNJCw4fbg9IW5h3oRrGXHqfNZScRZlSOJbVmBET+mWNi3hs/YPl DjDFxWYrVuURr9e37St2/FqFxstI7orxvEtJ48y9fvAc0PNJj36skLXJGomM0x1RrToe 4pfg5bY1/ZwXpNtg6tQA2drRg4Rl6tL0TDq9JcGUa5DWUttN+Ksse9FqHt5SAaKkdMK4 zEMDZIWQqPa+sbFTDJaGlPYk+EB6dE2nUfSK0KCdUHZXZIdNNppJR8M3juYBGpGNbraZ 7LIw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmxLDPJysfDM7sKW0KYtHpSpLNOxUAHE9T9/OiTFtfKaNzxjqnSkclk011YtTa0JXNPEWmA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.129.201 with SMTP id p9mr18802675qas.75.1407344783344; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:468:d01:9c::80df:9cfd] In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:06:23 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cc0ae360f504fff8fd9f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/g6KAZ6qwP0jmyVgd1BvLGRhn2lg Cc: Jamal Hadi Salim , SDN IRTF list , "Ken Gray \(kegray\)" , Robert Raszuk , Dave Hood Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:06:29 -0000 --001a11c2cc0ae360f504fff8fd9f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > Just a very quick comment =E2=80=93 a number of organizations are also pa= y to play > (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison > relationships where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken plac= e > to mutual benefit. I=E2=80=99m not aware of any inherent reason why this= could not > also be done with the ONF. > The IRTF is not a standards making organization. --dmm > > > With best regards, > > Eve > > > > *From:* Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM > *To:* David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve) > *Cc:* SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim > > *Subject:* Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance > > > > *From: *David Meyer > *Date: *Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM > *To: *"Varma, Eve L (Eve)" > *Cc: *SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , > Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim > *Subject: *Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < > eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > > I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technica= l > content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF > biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion > expressed in the discussion to date). > > > > Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between a= n > open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is > pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by > definition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF t= o > the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF member= s > are interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other > way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide > input to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one > that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build > documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern). > > > > That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to > the citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriat= e. > I'll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citatio= n > like [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, s= o > we need to look at that. > > > > --dmm > > > > [0] > https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/tec= hnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > > Best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a > document that is known to exist. We should reference the document. > > However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim > non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it give= s > them very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the > draft. It is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document > show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current dra= ft > document. > > cheers, > jamal > > [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to > promote technologies around OF. > According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been > standardized is OF. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < > eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the > introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter > named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better > understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and > business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectura= l > concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of thi= s > document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to > indicate that SDN=3DONF. > > > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a mo= re > rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. > IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and t= he > taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > > > > With best regards, > > Eve > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > > To: Dave Hood > > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts= " > ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft documen= t > you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to > this WG as an individual submission yet ? > > > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main > goal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: > >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the > >> concepts of > >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources > > >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> > >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer > >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM > >> To: SDN IRTF list > >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx > >> t > >> > >> > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> As you may have see a new version of > >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which > >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to > >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on > 08.15.2014. > >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> --dmm > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [0] > >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx > >> t > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sdn mailing list > >> sdn@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sdn mailing list > > sdn@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > --001a11c2cc0ae360f504fff8fd9f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve= .varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

Dear all,=

=C2=A0

Just a very quick comment =E2= =80=93 a number of organizations are also pay to play (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, O= IF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison relationships where bi-direction= al commenting on documents has taken place to mutual benefit.=C2=A0 I=E2=80= =99m not aware of any inherent reason why this could not also be done with = the ONF.


The IRTF is= not a standards making organization.

--dmm
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With best regards,

Eve

=C2=A0

From: Ken Gray= (kegray) [mailto:keg= ray@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM
To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim=

=C2=A0

+1 on the fundamental distin= ction and it's importance

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM
To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.com>
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= u>

=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 = AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:=

I would suggest to focus exa= mination of the document towards its technical content - entering into a de= bate re whether or not the material is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed in the discussion= to date).

=C2=A0<= /p>

Folks need also to realize t= he deep and fundamental differences between an open participation organizat= ion like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by definition uni-= directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (c= f your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested = in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no m= eans in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a cruci= al distinction and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates a= nd how we build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

=C2=A0<= /p>

That said, I don't mind = citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the citation we current= ly have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an =C2=A0issue with the stability of a citation like [0] in = a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to l= ook at that.

=C2=A0<= /p>

--dmm

=C2=A0<= /p>


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----

From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] O= n Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once= commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable= to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture document th= at Dave cited. =C2=A0A read of this document will clearly illustrate that i= ts intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be inc= luded in the list of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to la= st call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br> >
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources

>> / technical-reports= /TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf

>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. =C2=A0I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org=
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

=C2=A0<= /p>


--001a11c2cc0ae360f504fff8fd9f-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 10:12:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07C21ABB2C for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id osY6IxMxXfJq for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpswa-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2626C1A0397 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 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<6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3BDC@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3BDCUS70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/j5aXusHh9MYDgJVOGS6-UEu5_IY Cc: Dave Hood , SDN IRTF list , "Ken Gray \(kegray\)" , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: 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AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPCAAGRBAP//7ZUw Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:24:28 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0CUS70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/yYvDTdQj3wtFRJj3vMjPYyFJbUw Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org 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--_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0CUS70UWXCHMBA03z_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 11:29:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD631ABC74 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KwcJBzgR4azU for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA 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2014 18:29:41 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com [173.36.12.84]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s76ITfwg016174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:29:41 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.4.158]) by xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com ([173.36.12.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:29:41 -0500 From: "Ken Gray (kegray)" To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" , David Meyer Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrblcU4UzzZvwF0qbcVIrFY1nNpvDDycAgAB7VgCAAEt/gIAABtcAgAAQoYCAACAQAP//v4sAgABa/ID//9YJgA== Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:29:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.98.159] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D007D9CE3CF05kegrayciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/p6UEJQABRdkRnaE-S-5lxoGSdpg Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:29:49 -0000 --_000_D007D9CE3CF05kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My quick comment. I personally wouldn't paint them all with the same brush= . For example, the IEEE can feasibly be individual membership which doesn't f= ollow employment, whereas the ONF individual membership is a fantasy (unles= s you like paying 30K a year). All the literature points to "member compan= ies". On the surface, sure =85all paid. As to the open nature of the document to be cited, I'll leave that to the r= eader =85 I got to paragraph three where it says the architecture is agnost= ic to protocols across the interfaces but the only candidate protocols so f= ar for interfaces are OF =85and had to decide whether to read further. Bri= ngs up a fundamental question in MY mind whether a protocol-independent arc= hitecture can be hatched in such a protocol-centric environment without the= direct input of other SDOs (who probably "own" the other protocols). From: , "Eve L (Eve)" > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:59 PM To: Ken Gray >, David Meyer > Cc: SDN IRTF list >, Dave Hood >, Robert Raszuk >, Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: RE: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Dear all, Just a very quick comment =96 a number of organizations are also pay to pla= y (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison relations= hips where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual= benefit. I=92m not aware of any inherent reason why this could not also b= e done with the ONF. With best regards, Eve From: Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance From: David Meyer > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" > Cc: SDN IRTF list >, Dave Hood >, Robert Raszuk >, Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date). Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between an = open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is p= ay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by defi= nition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the = I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are = interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As= a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide input to= the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that goes = to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and fo= r that matter, how we self-govern). That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the= citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'= ll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation li= ke [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we= need to look at that. --dmm [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/t= echnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Beh= alf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= . cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On B= ehalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >> concepts of >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On = Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15= .2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn --_000_D007D9CE3CF05kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <6BE3D4331CD71B41B3C4B314F32462F5@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My quick comment.  I personally wouldn't paint them all with the = same brush.  

For example, the IEEE can feasibly be individual membership which does= n't follow employment, whereas the ONF individual membership is a fantasy (= unless you like paying 30K a year).  All the literature points to &quo= t;member companies".  On the surface, sure =85all paid.

As to the open nature of the document to be cited, I'll leave that to = the reader =85 I got to paragraph three where it says the architecture is a= gnostic to protocols across the interfaces but the only candidate protocols= so far for interfaces are OF =85and had to decide whether to read further.  Brings up a fundamental quest= ion in MY mind whether a protocol-independent architecture can be hatched i= n such a protocol-centric environment without the direct input of other SDO= s (who probably "own" the other protocols).




From: <Varma>, "Eve L (E= ve)" <eve.varma@alc= atel-lucent.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:= 59 PM
To: Ken Gray <kegray@cisco.com>, David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.co= m>
Subject: RE: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>

Dear all,

 

Just a very quick comment =96 a number = of organizations are also pay to play (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for wh= ich there are IETF liaison relationships where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual ben= efit.  I=92m not aware of any inherent reason why this could not also = be done with the ONF.

 

With best regards,

Eve

 

From: Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM
To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

+1 on the fundamental distinction and it= 's importance

 

From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-= 5.net>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM
To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@e= ricsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.com>
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L= (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

I would suggest to focus examination of the = document towards its technical content - entering into a debate re whether = or not the material is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed in the= discussion to date).

 

Folks need also to realize the deep and fund= amental differences between an open participation organization like the I{E= ,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by definition uni-= directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (c= f your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested = in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no m= eans in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a cruci= al distinction and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates a= nd how we build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

 

That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's mos= t recent work as opposed to the citation we currently have if you folks thi= nk that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an  issue with the stability of a citation like= [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we n= eed to look at that.

 

--dmm

 


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----

From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once= commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable= to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture document th= at Dave cited.  A read of this document will clearly illustrate that i= ts intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch]  Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft.  However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology.  IMHO, at minimum, it should be inc= luded in the list of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to la= st call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br> >
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources

>> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0= _06062014.pdf

>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

 

 --_000_D007D9CE3CF05kegrayciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 6 11:43:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE451B2792 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zE4E6xx2vRTB for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1174E1A0390 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f179.google.com with SMTP id h18so3315411igc.12 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:43:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MWyMq2ztfYbJ9NjLjj904mZF8RbWPB4wq89u9GkgucY=; b=tEyaNXgM+7lltt/FJSkkrZ8MIXwVOQE5NwIA+j54wgSRAjXnK07kzzRCeY072OakGg j0UDrQj1ky6Ero468ub5lFC5Jy073SU04Y8qWN3CWyX7gk6AH1j/oy0Th+K6369+wvO7 dbpciEUiscxIE6MsHwpq9XhiGGqThRUnpxcfJY0ngrvicu9e4zW4+bdXvbQfR9C+aDgW 5/loOqVavNOCtGHPPizN09f/7sOJhDmT/M6xYUJqpc57ZpHZ6koe65A5OISvVbjmfETl xXoXyQ9J8OJt3XGKoLOHbG2cHpNBlvABdDIj4Is74d0HsX1IduwrtlFU4/KW5XZobPi4 U8PQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.140.129 with SMTP id ja1mr17834559icc.54.1407350580082; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.32.141 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:42:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:42:59 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: UlHKz5CTXQlftZwGIDbcInq6u9o Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/RYgZdLGtim_28FZ9KWZ_cCKXeVo Cc: David Meyer , Jamal Hadi Salim , SDN IRTF list , "Ken Gray \(kegray\)" , Dave Hood Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:43:04 -0000 Eve, > bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual benefit IETF/IRTF being open forums and IETF/IRTF WGs mailing lists being open everyone can provide input to documents at all stages of them. ONF is not open (for a reason) hence non of the individuals (except special sponsoring of those politically correct once has taken place) can provide any input during the process. But let me try and let's see what as a end result of my input will end up in your architcture document for SDN: - please kindly consider other then protocols OFC & OFS as a means to program network elements namely FORCES as well as I2RS - please kindly include for basic architecture completeness description of protocol or protocols to exchange RDB content between different administration domains - please kindly include detail description of RIB and FIB analogy of today's network elements in the new proposed architecture - please kindly enhance L2 focused and highly incomplete or obsolete list of of autonomous functions a data plane element may run without any tie into remote controller. Current set of "LLDP, STP, BFD or ICMP" is far from sufficient or exhaustive - please kindly modify your document from being so narrow and L2 centric into being L3 centric and include basic elements of route resoultion, recursion or LPM That's just tiny, but a start of input. Let's see how this will be reflected in the document before this or for that matter any IETF or IRTF WG will spend more time on both on the lists as well as during WG meetings. Regards, R. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) wrote: > Dear all, > > > > Just a very quick comment =E2=80=93 a number of organizations are also pa= y to play > (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison > relationships where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken plac= e > to mutual benefit. I=E2=80=99m not aware of any inherent reason why this= could not > also be done with the ONF. > > > > With best regards, > > Eve > > > > From: Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM > To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim > > > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance > > > > From: David Meyer > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM > To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" > Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Rob= ert > Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > > I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technica= l > content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF > biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion > expressed in the discussion to date). > > > > Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between a= n > open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is > pay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by > definition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF t= o > the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF member= s > are interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other w= ay. > As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide inpu= t > to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that g= oes > to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and = for > that matter, how we self-govern). > > > > That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to t= he > citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I= 'll > just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation lik= e > [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we > need to look at that. > > > > --dmm > > > > [0] > https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/tec= hnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > > > Best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a docum= ent > that is known to exist. We should reference the document. > > However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim > non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it give= s > them very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the dra= ft. > It is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show u= p > at the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft > document. > > cheers, > jamal > > [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to > promote technologies around OF. > According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been > standardized is OF. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the >> introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter >> named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better >> understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial an= d >> business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectur= al >> concepts in the SDN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of th= is >> document will clearly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to >> indicate that SDN=3DONF. >> >> I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN >> Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the >> draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a m= ore >> rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology= . >> IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and t= he >> taxonomy be considered prior to last call. >> >> With best regards, >> Eve >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM >> To: Dave Hood >> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list >> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts"= ? >> Leave alone their substance for now .... >> >> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document >> you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this >> WG as an individual submission yet ? >> >> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goa= l >> is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. >> >> Best, >> R. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrote= : >>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >>> concepts of >>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources > >>> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf > >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer >>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >>> To: SDN IRTF list >>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >>> t >>> >>> >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> >>> >>> As you may have see a new version of >>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on >>> 08.15.2014. >>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> --dmm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [0] >>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >>> t >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sdn mailing list >>> sdn@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > From nobody Wed Aug 6 11:54:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9612A1B27B5 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9SkPiHFgshWk for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpswa-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC9C81B2799 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id BF0F7EDF383FE; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:54:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.36]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s76IsJq5032565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 14:54:32 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 14:54:26 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPCAAGRBAIAAApqA///QX+CAAGRfgP//vSJA Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3DC1@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/9fjI-n4FTCaUjn2mOI_6DQgn9Vk Cc: David Meyer , Dave Hood , SDN IRTF list , "Ken Gray \(kegray\)" , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:54:37 -0000 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c2RuQGlydGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pcnRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Nkbg0K From nobody Wed Aug 6 12:03:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309481B27DD for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7BzE4p1CtdSt for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22d.google.com (mail-ie0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D576D1B27C3 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id tr6so3400451ieb.18 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fPwB9SnmvwDzrD1P0uTsP10rCmPCLvRLR8mTw/DOFsQ=; b=SuXxIy1HFrCtW0P01xANBgh7eAaE28DrCUCOtIjwAQXOcwg3EfrZGJBMLAGkTDWCDX p1vXROZ2prTsqzXllmmYjFjdGrNhThWc4/8e7baXT9XuRvd198VzIf5Eqhm6DROqgnhw NQ4rkZSwbpkSii7BUiqI74lRZcm18SoBQ27LXX2MYR/AgaJUrXSQnTK7RvaocQ+WQpZG sA7eGlwKtfrqWZIvvhqWO5XNFxo+zynhlewsLDqXLoO0JZnHCzwiGqvtcNcxToFB7NUj JLyf0pyQaaxwJqwEL99JXrKO1XEAfp133Ue0cnx5uadn99KDESyJP91cIRMbhxlHq6wR 0O3g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.140.129 with SMTP id ja1mr17986922icc.54.1407351787214; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.32.141 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3DC1@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3AF0@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3DC1@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:03:07 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: uO438aRhWEBPOyIcf_YH0pK1ASA Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/9orQFOv1RabVw0ZbxO7YQ391Vc4 Cc: David Meyer , Dave Hood , SDN IRTF list , "Ken Gray \(kegray\)" , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 19:03:14 -0000 Eve, I fully realized that this doc is not your individual work. Being once part of ONF I do know how that thing is structured and how it works behind the scene. However you and Dave asked for constructive input hence I provided one. What you do with it is completely up to you .. I expect not much will happen with any comments which do not praise OF are based on real life networking experience and are aim to deliver something which is practical and real vs continue the dead end academic experiment. Best, r. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) wrote: > Robert, > > The ONF SDN Architecture document is not "my" architecture document, and = I am not speaking with an ONF "hat" on. I follow the work of multiple stand= ards and industry forums where SDN concepts are being progressed, and find = there to be value in reading the wide range of documentation that is availa= ble. If there is interest in opening technical communications regarding th= e document in question, I suggest using the IETF liaison process articulate= d in RFCs 4053 and 4052. > > Best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 2:43 PM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: David Meyer; Jamal Hadi Salim; SDN IRTF list; Ken Gray (kegray); Dave= Hood > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-= sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Eve, > >> bi-directional commenting on documents has taken place to mutual >> benefit > > IETF/IRTF being open forums and IETF/IRTF WGs mailing lists being open ev= eryone can provide input to documents at all stages of them. > > ONF is not open (for a reason) hence non of the individuals (except speci= al sponsoring of those politically correct once has taken place) can provid= e any input during the process. > > But let me try and let's see what as a end result of my input will end up= in your architcture document for SDN: > > - please kindly consider other then protocols OFC & OFS as a means to pro= gram network elements namely FORCES as well as I2RS > > - please kindly include for basic architecture completeness description o= f protocol or protocols to exchange RDB content between different administr= ation domains > > - please kindly include detail description of RIB and FIB analogy of toda= y's network elements in the new proposed architecture > > - please kindly enhance L2 focused and highly incomplete or obsolete list= of of autonomous functions a data plane element may run without any tie i= nto remote controller. Current set of "LLDP, STP, BFD or ICMP" is far from = sufficient or exhaustive > > - please kindly modify your document from being so narrow and L2 centric = into being L3 centric and include basic elements of route resoultion, recur= sion or LPM > > That's just tiny, but a start of input. Let's see how this will be reflec= ted in the document before this or for that matter any IETF or IRTF WG will= spend more time on both on the lists as well as during WG meetings. > > Regards, > R. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> Just a very quick comment =E2=80=93 a number of organizations are also p= ay to >> play (e.g., ITU-T, IEEE, OIF, etc.) for which there are IETF liaison >> relationships where bi-directional commenting on documents has taken >> place to mutual benefit. I=E2=80=99m not aware of any inherent reason w= hy >> this could not also be done with the ONF. >> >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> Eve >> >> >> >> From: Ken Gray (kegray) [mailto:kegray@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:34 AM >> To: David Meyer; Varma, Eve L (Eve) >> Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> >> +1 on the fundamental distinction and it's importance >> >> >> >> From: David Meyer >> Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 11:24 AM >> To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" >> Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , >> Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim >> >> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) >> wrote: >> >> I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its >> technical content - entering into a debate re whether or not the >> material is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the >> differences in opinion expressed in the discussion to date). >> >> >> >> Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences >> between an open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the >> ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that >> information flow is by definition uni-directional. In particular, >> information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), >> in those cases in which ONF members are interested in commenting (just l= ike anyone else), but not the other way. >> As a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide >> input to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and >> one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we >> build documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern). >> >> >> >> That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed >> to the citation we currently have if you folks think that is more >> appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an issue with the >> stability of a citation like [0] in a document that we are standing up >> as an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that. >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> [0] >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/ >> technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> Best regards, >> Eve >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM >> To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) >> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk >> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt >> >> I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a >> document that is known to exist. We should reference the document. >> >> However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt >> proclaim non-existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other >> approaches, it gives them very low profile and doesnt cover the whole ra= nge covered by the draft. >> It is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document >> show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current >> draft document. >> >> cheers, >> jamal >> >> [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to >> promote technologies around OF. >> According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been >> standardized is OF. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) >> wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the >>> introduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG >>> charter named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering >>> better understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a >>> technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable >>> to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture >>> document that Dave cited. A read of this document will clearly >>> illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DON= F. >>> >>> I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, >>> "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references >>> in the draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and >>> provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including assoc= iated terminology. >>> IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, >>> and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. >>> >>> With best regards, >>> Eve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM >>> To: Dave Hood >>> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list >>> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for >>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >>> t >>> >>> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts= " ? >>> Leave alone their substance for now .... >>> >>> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft >>> document you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related >>> concept to this WG as an individual submission yet ? >>> >>> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main >>> goal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. >>> >>> Best, >>> R. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood wrot= e: >>>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >>>> concepts of >>>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resource >>>> s >> >>>> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer >>>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >>>> To: SDN IRTF list >>>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.t >>>> x >>>> t >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As you may have see a new version of >>>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >>>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >>>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on >>>> 08.15.2014. >>>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --dmm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [0] >>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.t >>>> x >>>> t >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sdn mailing list >>>> sdn@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sdn mailing list >>> sdn@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sdn mailing list >>> sdn@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > 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TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B29A1B2964 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 16:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id A6EEF80D79BE9; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 23:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s76NIpLP000860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:18:51 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.49]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:18:51 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" , David Meyer Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPCAAGRBAP//7ZUwgABRbrA= Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 23:18:50 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A41CF@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A41CFUS70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/oqyJmRoUhR2DpLdUo8iQOfaPbfI Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 23:18:58 -0000 --_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A41CFUS70UWXCHMBA03z_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCkFzIGFuIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgdXBkYXRlIHJlIHJlZmVyZW5jZXM7IHlvdSBtYXkgd2lz aCB0byBhZGQ6DQpJVFUtVCBTRyAxMyBSZWMuIFkuMzMwMCwgRnJhbWV3b3JrIG9mIHNvZnR3YXJl LWRlZmluZWQgbmV0d29ya2luZywgd2hpY2ggd2FzIGFwcHJvdmVkIEp1bmUgNiwgMjAxNC4NCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cuaXR1LmludC9JVFUtVC9yZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMvcmVjLmFzcHg/cmVjPTEyMTY4 DQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCkV2ZQ0KDQpGcm9tOiBzZG4gW21haWx0bzpzZG4tYm91bmNlc0Bp cnRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFZhcm1hLCBFdmUgTCAoRXZlKQ0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5 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AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIAATfgA///McPCAAGRBAP//7ZUwgABRbrCAAFFRAP//vonQ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 00:08:15 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A4260@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A41CF@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A4260US70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/37OzbiokyG4huqUyPwnHb1ecAUQ X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 06 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bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 7 Aug 2014 01:53:21 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.4.158]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 20:53:21 -0500 From: "Ken Gray (kegray)" To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" , Hesham ElBakoury , David Meyer Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrblcU4UzzZvwF0qbcVIrFY1nNpvDDycAgAB7VgCAAEt/gIAABtcAgAAQoYCAACAQAIAAMisAgABSPwCAAAvpAIAAAeaA///aTgA= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 01:53:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A348C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3D0C@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A41CF@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A4260@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A4260@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.98.159] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D00851F83D018kegrayciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/2fNk5Yz7Aa3xn3edex56xPuEd6A Cc: SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Robert Raszuk , Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 01:53:29 -0000 --_000_D00851F83D018kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hate to be a wet blanket here but there's an assumption being made that rai= ses a bunch of questions (for me): Does it have to be a standards body that= thinks it's relevant in this space? I mean, who judges relevance here or = authority for that matter? Why be elitist =85there's a lot of really good = individual opinion and research out there on the topic. Surely, to be fair, we can reference blogs, books and on-line comics on th= e topic (no smirking, there probably is one =96 if not, great idea!). The one difference I can see is that, if I as an individual say I have an o= pinion, you would almost certainly tell me to write a draft =85 not referen= ce my blog, book or comic, so that you can comment on it, refute it or ask = for more information and NOT accept it unless I allow you to make input and= we reach consensus. Double standard? From: , "Eve L (Eve)" > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:08 PM To: Hesham ElBakoury >, David Meyer > Cc: SDN IRTF list >, Dave Hood >, Robert Raszuk >, Jamal Hadi Salim > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Just adding to the list of references in the draft. The summary of Y.3300 = reads: Recommendation ITU-T Y.3300 describes the framework of software-defined net= working (SDN) to specify fundamentals of SDN. The definitions, objectives, = high-level capabilities, requirements and high-level architecture of SDN ar= e addressed in this Recommendation. Appendix I describes areas for further = consideration in SDN standardization. From: Hesham ElBakoury [mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:01 PM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve); David Meyer Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: RE: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Which spec describes the standard SDN architecture, the ITU SDN reference a= rchitecture or ONF SDN architecture ? From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Varma, Eve L (Eve) Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 4:19 PM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve); David Meyer Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Hi, As an additional update re references; you may wish to add: ITU-T SG 13 Rec. Y.3300, Framework of software-defined networking, which wa= s approved June 6, 2014. http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/recommendations/rec.aspx?rec=3D12168 Best regards, Eve From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Varma, Eve L (Eve) Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 2:24 PM To: David Meyer Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Hi David, Sorry, but I also meant to ask about your comment: =93That said, I don't mi= nd citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the citation we currentl= y have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that = there is an issue with the stability of a citation like [0] in a document = that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that= . [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/t= echnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf=94 I suggest it be listed in the same way as, or be a straight substitution fo= r, the reference that=92s already in the draft, which is reproduced below. [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, . Best regards, Eve From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:25 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: I would suggest to focus examination of the document towards its technical = content - entering into a debate re whether or not the material is ONF bias= ed is subjective (as we can see from the differences in opinion expressed i= n the discussion to date). Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental differences between an = open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF and the ONF. The ONF is p= ay-to-play, which means among other things that information flow is by defi= nition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the = I{E,R}TF (cf your comments above), in those cases in which ONF members are = interested in commenting (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As= a result, I{E,R}TF participants have no means in which to provide input to= the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinction and one that goes = to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we build documents (and fo= r that matter, how we self-govern). That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the= citation we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'= ll just mention that there is an issue with the stability of a citation li= ke [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we= need to look at that. --dmm [0] https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources/t= echnical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Beh= alf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document. However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up a= t the IETF and SDNRG and never once commented on the current draft document= . cheers, jamal [1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF. According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) > wrote: > Dear all, > > Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the intro= duction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter named "= Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering better understanding of= prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic= manner.", it is reasonable to consider the architectural concepts in the S= DN Architecture document that Dave cited. A read of this document will cle= arly illustrate that its intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DO= NF. > > I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Ar= chitecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the draft.= However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a more rigor= ous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology. IMHO,= at minimum, it should be included in the list of references, and the taxon= omy be considered prior to last call. > > With best regards, > Eve > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On B= ehalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM > To: Dave Hood > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what novel "concepts" = ? Leave alone their substance for now .... > > IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft document = you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to thi= s WG as an individual submission yet ? > > Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main goal= is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful. > > Best, > R. > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood > wrote: >> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the >> concepts of >> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources >> / technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On = Behalf Of David Meyer >> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM >> To: SDN IRTF list >> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> As you may have see a new version of >> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which >> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto. I want to >> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1700 PDT on 08.15= .2014. >> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the list >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> --dmm >> >> >> >> >> >> [0] >> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sdn mailing list >> sdn@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn >> > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn --_000_D00851F83D018kegrayciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <322DADDD8B64FA4A9E28B381A1C5C17C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hate to be a wet blanket here but there's an assumption being made tha= t raises a bunch of questions (for me): Does it have to be a standards body= that thinks it's relevant in this space?  I mean, who judges relevanc= e here or authority for that matter?  Why be elitist =85there's a lot of really good individual opinion an= d research out there on the topic.   

Surely, to be fair,  we can reference blogs, books and on-line co= mics on the topic (no smirking, there probably is one =96 if not, great ide= a!).  

The one difference I can see is that, if I as an individual say I have= an opinion, you would almost certainly tell me to write a draft =85 not re= ference my blog, book or comic, so that you can comment on it, refute it or= ask for more information and NOT accept it unless I allow you to make input and we reach consensus.

Double standard?

From: <Varma>, "Eve L (E= ve)" <eve.varma@alc= atel-lucent.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:0= 8 PM
To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, D= avid Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Cc: SDN IRTF list <sdn@irtf.org>, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jamal Hadi Salim <hadi@mojatatu.co= m>
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>

Just adding to the list of references i= n the draft.  The summary of Y.3300 reads:

 

Recommendation ITU-T Y.3300 describes t= he framework of software-defined networking (SDN) to specify fundamentals o= f SDN. The definitions, objectives, high-level capabilities, requirements and high-level architecture of SDN a= re addressed in this Recommendation. Appendix I describes areas for further= consideration in SDN standardization.

 

From: Hesham ElBakoury [mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:01 PM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve); David Meyer
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: RE: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

Which spec describes the standard = SDN architecture, the ITU SDN reference architecture or ONF SDN architectur= e ?

 

From: sdn [mai= lto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 4:19 PM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve); David Meyer
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

Hi,

 

As an additional update re references; = you may wish to add:

ITU-T SG 13 Rec. Y.3300, Framework of software-defined networking, which was approved June 6,= 2014.

http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/recommendations= /rec.aspx?rec=3D12168

 

Best regards,

Eve

 

From: sdn [mai= lto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 2:24 PM
To: David Meyer
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry, but I also meant to ask about your comment: =93That said,= I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent work as opposed to the citation = we currently have if you folks think that is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an  issue with t= he stability of a citation like [0] in a document that we are standing up a= s an Informational RFC, so we need to look at that.

 

[0] <= span style=3D"color:windowtext">https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stori= es/downloads/sdn-resources/technical-reports/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf=94

 

I suggest it be listed in the same way as, or be a= straight substitution for, the reference that=92s already in the draft, wh= ich is reproduced below. 

[ONFArch]  Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Architectur= e Overview",

           = ;   December 2013,

           = ;   <https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/

           = ;   sdn-resources/technical-reports/SDN-architecture-overview-

           = ;   1.0.pdf>.

 

Best regards,

Eve

 

 

From: sdn [mai= lto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:25 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk; Jamal Hadi Salim
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= o:p>

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) &= lt;eve.va= rma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

I would suggest to focus examination of the document= towards its technical content - entering into a debate re whether or not t= he material is ONF biased is subjective (as we can see from the differences= in opinion expressed in the discussion to date).

 

Folks need also to realize the deep and fundamental = differences between an open participation organization like the I{E,R}TF an= d the ONF. The ONF is pay-to-play, which means among other things that info= rmation flow is by definition uni-directional. In particular, information can flow the ONF to the I{E,R}TF (cf your comme= nts above), in those cases in which ONF members are interested in commentin= g (just like anyone else), but not the other way. As a result, I{E,R}TF par= ticipants have no means in which to provide input to the document(s) you cite. This is a crucial distinctio= n and one that goes to the core of how the I{E,R}TF operates and how we bui= ld documents (and for that matter, how we self-govern).

 

That said, I don't mind citing the ONF's most recent= work as opposed to the citation we currently have if you folks think that = is more appropriate. I'll just mention that there is an  issue with th= e stability of a citation like [0] in a document that we are standing up as an Informational RFC, so we need to lo= ok at that.

 

--dmm

 


Best regards,
Eve

-----Original Message-----

From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Ja= mal Hadi Salim
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 8:31 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Dave Hood; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br>
I think we would be intellectually dishonest if we dont reference a documen= t that is known to exist. We should reference the document.

However, the document is extremely ONF biased and while doesnt proclaim non= -existence(as is the tradition of ONF[1]) of other approaches, it gives the= m very low profile and doesnt cover the whole range covered by the draft. I= t is amusing that some of the folks contributing to that document show up at the IETF and SDNRG and never once= commented on the current draft document.

cheers,
jamal

[1]Which is a *members only marketing organization* with an agenda to promo= te technologies around OF.
According to Dan Pitt the only southbound protocol that has been standardiz= ed is OF.





On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Given the proposal for a Last Call, and the intent expressed in the in= troduction "This document addresses the work item in the SDNRG charter= named "Survey of SDN approaches and Taxonomies", fostering bette= r understanding of prominent SDN technologies in a technology-impartial and business-agnostic manner.", it is reasonable= to consider the architectural concepts in the SDN Architecture document th= at Dave cited.  A read of this document will clearly illustrate that i= ts intent is far from trying to indicate that SDN=3DONF.
>
> I note that you have cited [ONFArch]  Open Networking Foundation,= "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the refere= nces in the draft.  However, the document Dave cited is more recent an= d provides a more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated terminology.  IMHO, at minimum, it should be inc= luded in the list of references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to la= st call.
>
> With best regards,
> Eve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@= irtf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:36 AM
> To: Dave Hood
> Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list
> Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= br> >
> Sorry but "incorporate the concepts" in what ? And what nove= l "concepts" ? Leave alone their substance for now ....
>
> IETF and IRTF WGs work on the basis of drafts. Is there a draft docume= nt you are proposing here ? Did you submit some new SDN related concept to = this WG as an individual submission yet ?
>
> Otherwise I am afraid providing 64 pages of abstract text which main g= oal is to state that SDN =3D ONF is not that helpful.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> I would encourage the community to review and incorporate the
>> concepts of
>> https://www.opennetworking.org/images/stories/downloads/sdn-resources

>> / technical-rep= orts/TR_SDN_ARCH_1.0_06062014.pdf

>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: sdn [mailto:sdn-boun= ces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Meyer
>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 11:50 AM
>> To: SDN IRTF list
>> Subject: [Sdn] Last call for
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you may have see a new version of
>> draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology [0] has been posted which=
>> incorporates comments from the list and from Toronto.  I want= to
>> start a "Last Call" for this document that will end at 1= 700 PDT on 08.15.2014.
>> Please have a look at the document and forward comments to the lis= t
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> --dmm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0]
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.tx >> t
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sdn mailing list
>> sdn@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn
>
> _______________________________________________
> sdn mailing list
> sdn@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

 

 --_000_D00851F83D018kegrayciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Aug 7 02:37:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C2D1B2A41 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 02:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OL1q8RvBTKDW for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 02:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.eict.de (mx2.eict.de [212.91.241.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36F91B2A3A for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 02:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mx2.eict.de (Postfix, from userid 481) id C23711FF60; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.eict.de (mx1 [172.16.6.1]) by mx2.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9BD1FF5B; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sbs2008.eict.local (sbs2008.intern.eict.de [192.168.2.11]) by mail.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDFD37838F; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298]) by SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298%13]) with mapi; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:49 +0200 From: Kostas Pentikousis To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:47 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: Ac+xcyY8KMGmjbG5Q8+zDSTqbb9bwwAoi2NQ Message-ID: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/T9bt2ARE1ugBXMSU99_TfAu93ik Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 09:37:34 -0000 Dear Eve, all, | I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN | Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the | draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a | more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated | terminology. IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of | references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document has= increased 10-fold in page count during this year. In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide = a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it [ON= FArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example: OLD text: We observe that the view presented in this document is quite well- aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]. A key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not include the management plane in its scope. NEW text: Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the I= RTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the d= ocument history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been know= n to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for omitting= a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section 7.1? Best regards, Kostas and Evangelos From nobody Thu Aug 7 06:46:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346981B2B23 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cn7rTAPSEZ8f for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E2621B2B28 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79206d0000014d2-dc-53e32f7c75a4 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 37.D1.05330.C7F23E35; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:49:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB105.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.122]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:46:33 -0400 From: Dave Hood To: Kostas Pentikousis , "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl5Hqd0FUJfYEiHbNumG0SDoJvCus9AgAC+6gCAAEt/gIABaJmAgAABtiA= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 13:46:32 +0000 Message-ID: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> In-Reply-To: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt26N/uNgg7mLDC0OdW1kt+hd+YrJ YmnTE0aLPQf2s1qcX/CcxYHVY83eYywerc/2snrsmr6C2ePL/yYmj8kbD7MFsEZx2aSk5mSW pRbp2yVwZUxvSCyYLFzR//AOewPjYf4uRk4OCQETiZMHVjJB2GISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjKKLFg 93J2CGcZo8Tsjc3MIFVsAhoSTy5NBusQEUiVuPFsCpjNLJAv8bP/EZgtLJApMXfHDzaImiyJ rY1tLBC2n8S2D/1gcRYBFYne7v2MIDavgK9E950HjBDLPjBJLDuzAyzBKeAjcWvGbLAGRqDz vp9aA7VMXOLWk/lQZwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4StJDHn9TVmiHodoG8+sUHY2hLLFr5mhlgs KHFy5hOWCYxis5CMnYWkZRaSlllIWhYwsqxi5CgtTi3LTTcy2MQIjLFjEmy6Oxj3vLQ8xCjA wajEw/vA5FGwEGtiWXFl7iFGaQ4WJXHeWbXzgoUE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUw useIr1f/3Rs17YbooW9OS0QmhzyZfDPQquHy9PcVT723VK//JPZ3z0SfgPklrzh9Y1qKwmxl 7opdkLsr+S4ivXNq87M9EYp8q5IZ0y6tSJJR6p+z22rB47qz9z5abRBvr2Ti/MTD1aOtx79b 59W55q2XjwUeOFo69+MFQYO4N51SUzNvvVg9SYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRAAXd0bySAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/1vifyOjaWxE56CjQKpkBzRpFKFA Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 13:46:46 -0000 I would suggest that the architecture overview be deleted. It was known to = be tentative at the time of publication, and the desired page limit necessi= tated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as fat (management, for example).= And, although the overview document is on the list to be updated in line w= ith the published architecture, I believe there is no active work on it. The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted. Dave -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Dear Eve, all, | I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN=20 | Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the=20 | draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a=20 | more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated=20 | terminology. IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of=20 | references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document has= increased 10-fold in page count during this year. In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide = a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it [ON= FArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example: OLD text: We observe that the view presented in this document is quite well- aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]. A key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not include the management plane in its scope. NEW text: Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the I= RTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the d= ocument history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been know= n to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for omitting= a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section 7.1? Best regards, Kostas and Evangelos _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Thu Aug 7 08:05:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C101B2B5F for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMpRz9ctIoYM for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-f43.google.com (mail-qg0-f43.google.com [209.85.192.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75381B2C22 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id a108so4575677qge.30 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OM7g2PcyldAeh2XnhAUm5YD0I1Q4BdQ1wTku+NUTa+I=; b=JzXQPnxQ5uBk4OaMFMQW2fFhFnJ7eKHLf0Dfs4+qBpaC9vxPy/3ZQpQRjSOeBVEI+l 9GTx04h/kP1wd+pvTYBwv/uFQlwig9dB0Jl2CiUEp8c1+LAhNO6iP4NMb+uVDnep0Isd Ppv8LJn8Y5U982K+dL7C5xLE3+SXsXnKxD1dwI5r4p5/dCxnw0tarrL5TL95aDxPIIR6 nRvp1V9HaI32s3EYwiHKE+rjHe6H+UMbNtBHnGSpC/K8rbhHjqKBaPhxmx3v2QspuePp MbcnwRDR13xVhjVEWnXu15NJKQo71sA6b9oF0Ph9jySmU8ZSQuau9fxL4aAmjaBRiB/X c9bQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk5LZ3OvGGgNG7ByEC2S7O3YInmcTgX9nvR++UXBWNiuIzz3u2zfxMC/IxC0cHzi2tjfMQ5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.50.48 with SMTP id r45mr13905189qga.96.1407423879866; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.223.223.182] In-Reply-To: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:04:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: Dave Hood Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135208a68917c05000b685c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/fthyx31gXBaVNvhksJhMYWs6Xc0 Cc: Kostas Pentikousis , SDN IRTF list , Haleplidis Evangelos , "Varma, Eve L \(Eve\)" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 15:05:20 -0000 --001a1135208a68917c05000b685c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Dave Hood wrote: > I would suggest that the architecture overview be deleted. It was known to > be tentative at the time of publication, and the desired page limit > necessitated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as fat (management, for > example). And, although the overview document is on the list to be updated > in line with the published architecture, I believe there is no active work > on it. > To which document are you referring? --dmm > > The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted. > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Dear Eve, all, > > | I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > | Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > | draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a > | more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated > | terminology. IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of > | references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > > We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document > has increased 10-fold in page count during this year. > > In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide > a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it > [ONFArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example: > > OLD text: > > We observe that the view presented in this document is quite well- > aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]. A > key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not > include the management plane in its scope. > > NEW text: > > > > > Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the > IRTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the > document history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been > known to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for > omitting a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section > 7.1? > > Best regards, > > Kostas and Evangelos > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > --001a1135208a68917c05000b685c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson= .com> wrote:
I would suggest that the architecture overvi= ew be deleted. It was known to be tentative at the time of publication, and= the desired page limit necessitated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as= fat (management, for example). And, although the overview document is on t= he list to be updated in line with the published architecture, I believe th= ere is no active work on it.

To which document are you referring?
=

--dmm
=C2=A0

The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.= org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis E= vangelos
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.= org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt

Dear Eve, all,

| I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation, &q= uot;SDN
| Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in t= he
| draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides= a
| more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated
| terminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of=
| references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call.

We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document has= increased 10-fold in page count during this year.

In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide = a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it [ON= FArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example:

OLD text:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0We observe that the view presented in this document is quite w= ell-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]= . =C2=A0A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0include the management plane in its scope.

NEW text:

<your proposal here>


Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the I= RTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the d= ocument history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been know= n to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for omitting= a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section 7.1?
Best regards,

Kostas and Evangelos

_______________________= ________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

--001a1135208a68917c05000b685c-- From nobody Thu Aug 7 08:06:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C061B2BDD for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cHD-BV2XztG5 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-us.alcatel-lucent.com (us-hpatc-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.18.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 428621B2BE0 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 4139FC2C080F9; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:05:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.36]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s77F5WPe031123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:05:32 -0400 Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.186]) by US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.36]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:05:32 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: Dave Hood , Kostas Pentikousis Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIABr7qAgABFyAD//9EP8A== Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:05:31 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A4860@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/qb6QOpmh00SuXOs4m9v244loa3o Cc: David Meyer , SDN IRTF list , Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 15:06:05 -0000 Hi, I agree with the suggestion to reference the Architecture, versus Architect= ure Overview, document. =20 Just a quick note re the referencing question; I suspect this was more rela= ted to, when citing a specific I{E,R}TF document, the practice of referenci= ng RFCs versus drafts. Best regards, Eve -----Original Message----- From: Dave Hood [mailto:dave.hood@ericsson.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 9:47 AM To: Kostas Pentikousis; Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: RE: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt I would suggest that the architecture overview be deleted. It was known to = be tentative at the time of publication, and the desired page limit necessi= tated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as fat (management, for example).= And, although the overview document is on the list to be updated in line w= ith the published architecture, I believe there is no active work on it. The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted. Dave -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sd= nrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Dear Eve, all, | I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN=20 | Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the=20 | draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a=20 | more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated=20 | terminology. IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of=20 | references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document has= increased 10-fold in page count during this year. In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide = a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it [ON= FArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example: OLD text: We observe that the view presented in this document is quite well- aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]. A key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not include the management plane in its scope. NEW text: Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the I= RTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the d= ocument history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been know= n to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for omitting= a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section 7.1? Best regards, Kostas and Evangelos _______________________________________________ sdn mailing list sdn@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn From nobody Thu Aug 7 08:10:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA56F1B2C5F for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sr0ZkMOqYu19 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 038311B2BFB for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:10:21 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79916d00000623a-e0-53e340b05189 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 27.E4.25146.0B043E35; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB105.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.122]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:10:17 -0400 From: Dave Hood To: David Meyer Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl5Hqd0FUJfYEiHbNumG0SDoJvCus9AgAC+6gCAAEt/gIABaJmAgAABtiCAAFnlgP//vd/g Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:10:17 +0000 Message-ID: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CCBD@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CCBDeusaamb105erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuO4Gh8fBBi3P9C0OdW1kt+hd+YrJ YmnTE0aLPQf2s1qcX/CcxYHVY83eYywerc/2snrsmr6C2ePL/yYmj8kbD7MFsEZx2aSk5mSW pRbp2yVwZTw92MJU8GI+Y8WGrvOsDYwnZjN2MXJySAiYSHxftJAdwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMBR Rok9C/qZIJxljBJnJm1iA6liE9CQeHJpMhOILSIgL3HwwiKwImaBrYwSf5rOgI0VFsiUmLvj BxtEUZbE1sY2Fgg7SmLO1RvMIDaLgIrEmjlPwep5BXwlZk7+xQix7TezRP+TR0BFHBycAoES h55pgdQwAp33/dQasMXMAuISt57MZ4I4W0BiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9YIWwliTmvrzFD1OdLfPs4 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Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:10:22 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48AE@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48AEUS70UWXCHMBA03z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/MkEtzv9AkQTGSe3Tuk88wfTxEX4 Cc: Kostas Pentikousis , SDN IRTF list , Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 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14.02.0247.003; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:13:03 -0400 From: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" , David Meyer , Dave Hood Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHPrbl7YFTJFAqF60aFQCclOHn1JpvC/mMAgAB7VgCAAARecIABr7qAgABFyACAABXTgP//vdAAgAABH/A= Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:13:03 +0000 Message-ID: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48E8@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48AE@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48AE@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl/HQXniwMMgXLcv1SWO77kr2EXTafu+pigR0dpxLm6+HAyrGyUM5Z+jZyOUn5JXaQhwmUu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.47.80 with SMTP id l74mr15057536qga.24.1407425068057; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.50.226 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.223.223.182] In-Reply-To: <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48E8@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47B8AE@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A3356@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A7F2@SBS2008.eict.local> <8D15A2BAF93E9C49AB037A0647E5FA643F47CA4D@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48AE@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> <6D32668528F93D449A073F45707153D82C4A48E8@US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: "Varma, Eve L (Eve)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c160643aed3f05000bafa4 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/Hynco9Nau4wIt5KGzU0c8uuLLjI Cc: Kostas Pentikousis , SDN IRTF list , Dave Hood , Haleplidis Evangelos Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 15:24:46 -0000 --001a11c160643aed3f05000bafa4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) < eve.varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > I see Dave and my emails crossed, and he already responded with more > clarity. > Got it, thx. --dmm > > > *From:* sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] *On Behalf Of *Varma, Eve L > (Eve) > *Sent:* Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:10 AM > *To:* David Meyer; Dave Hood > *Cc:* Kostas Pentikousis; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos > > *Subject:* Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > Hi David, > > > > Replacing: > > Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Architecture Overview", December 2013 > > > > with > > Open Networking Foundation, =E2=80=9CSDN Architecture, Issue 1=E2=80=9D, = June 2014 > > > > Best regards, > > Eve > > > > *From:* David Meyer [mailto:dmm@1-4-5.net ] > *Sent:* Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:05 AM > *To:* Dave Hood > *Cc:* Kostas Pentikousis; Varma, Eve L (Eve); SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis > Evangelos > *Subject:* Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Dave Hood wrote: > > I would suggest that the architecture overview be deleted. It was known t= o > be tentative at the time of publication, and the desired page limit > necessitated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as fat (management, for > example). And, although the overview document is on the list to be update= d > in line with the published architecture, I believe there is no active wor= k > on it. > > > > To which document are you referring? > > > > --dmm > > > > > The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM > To: Varma, Eve L (Eve) > > Cc: David Meyer; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos > Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt > > Dear Eve, all, > > | I note that you have cited [ONFArch] Open Networking Foundation, "SDN > | Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in the > | draft. However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides a > | more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated > | terminology. IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of > | references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call. > > We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document > has increased 10-fold in page count during this year. > > In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provid= e > a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it > [ONFArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example: > > OLD text: > > We observe that the view presented in this document is quite well- > aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]. A > key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not > include the management plane in its scope. > > NEW text: > > > > > Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the > IRTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to th= e > document history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been > known to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for > omitting a reference to draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology in secti= on > 7.1? > > Best regards, > > Kostas and Evangelos > > _______________________________________________ > sdn mailing list > sdn@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn > > > --001a11c160643aed3f05000bafa4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Varma, Eve L (Eve) <eve= .varma@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

I see Dave and my emails = crossed, and he already responded with more clarity.


Got it, thx. --dmm=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

From: sdn [mai= lto:sdn-bounces@i= rtf.org] On Behalf Of Varma, Eve L (Eve)
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:10 AM
To: David Meyer; Dave Hood
Cc: Kostas Pentikousis; SDN IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos

=C2=A0

Hi David,

=C2=A0

Replacing:

Open Networking Foundation, "SDN Archit= ecture Overview", December 2013

=C2=A0

with

Open Networking Foundation, =E2=80=9CSDN Arc= hitecture, Issue 1=E2=80=9D, June 2014

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Eve

=C2=A0

From: David Me= yer [mailto:dmm@1-4-5.ne= t]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:05 AM
To: Dave Hood
Cc: Kostas Pentikousis; Varma, Eve L (Eve); SDN IRTF list; Haleplidi= s Evangelos
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Dave Hood <dave.hood@ericsson.co= m> wrote:

I would suggest that the architecture overview be de= leted. It was known to be tentative at the time of publication, and the des= ired page limit necessitated cutting out flesh and bone, as well as fat (ma= nagement, for example). And, although the overview document is on the list to be updated in line with the publis= hed architecture, I believe there is no active work on it.

=C2=A0

To which document are you referring?

=C2=A0

--dmm

=C2=A0


The old text would suffice if the last sentence were deleted.

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Kostas Pentikousis
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 2:37 AM
To: Varma, Eve L (Eve)

Cc: David Meyer; SDN = IRTF list; Haleplidis Evangelos
Subject: Re: [Sdn] Last call for http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-haleplidis-sdnrg-layer-terminology-07.txt<= u>

Dear Eve, all,

| I note that you have cited [ONFArch] =C2=A0Open Networking Foundation, &q= uot;SDN
| Architecture Overview", December 2013, as one of the references in t= he
| draft. =C2=A0However, the document Dave cited is more recent and provides= a
| more rigorous treatment of the architecture, including associated
| terminology. =C2=A0IMHO, at minimum, it should be included in the list of=
| references, and the taxonomy be considered prior to last call.

We can certainly add the updated reference. After all, the new document has= increased 10-fold in page count during this year.

In order to facilitate our editorial work, would it be possible to provide = a paragraph or so which relates the work in this new reference (call it [ON= FArchIssue1]) to this draft? For example:

OLD text:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0We observe that the view presented in this document is quite w= ell-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0aligned with recently published work by the ONF; see [ONFArch]= . =C2=A0A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0key difference, however, is that the ONF architecture does not=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0include the management plane in its scope.

NEW text:

<your proposal here>


Out of curiosity, we note that the only reference to the work done in the I= RTF is to the SDNRG web site (i.e. reference [38]). Yet, according to the d= ocument history on p. 67, the existence of this draft should have been know= n to at least some contributing authors. Any particular reason for omitting a reference to draft-haleplidi= s-sdnrg-layer-terminology in section 7.1?

Best regards,

Kostas and Evangelos

_______________________________________________
sdn mailing list
sdn@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn

=C2=A0


--001a11c160643aed3f05000bafa4-- From nobody Thu Aug 7 08:35:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0801B2885 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:35:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSZeAs_Ucmrx for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.eict.de (mx2.eict.de [212.91.241.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0E11B2D7B for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mx2.eict.de (Postfix, from userid 481) id 8468C1FF52; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.eict.de (mx1 [172.16.6.1]) by mx2.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BD31FF4F for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sbs2008.eict.local (sbs2008.intern.eict.de [192.168.2.11]) by mail.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A3137838F for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:35:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298]) by SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298%13]) with mapi; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:35:09 +0200 From: Kostas Pentikousis To: SDN IRTF list Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:35:07 +0200 Thread-Topic: EWSDN 2014: Call for Participation Thread-Index: Ac+yVSqoN2sfoMI9SMyQ7OhYqNkNww== Message-ID: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C61A846@SBS2008.eict.local> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/mLSDVZe_hbVNDY3wJuv45PTWk4c Subject: [Sdn] EWSDN 2014: Call for Participation X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 15:35:22 -0000 Dear all, The EWSDN 2014 program is now available at www.ewsdn.org. The 3-day program= includes keynotes, paper presentations, live demonstrations, and tutorials= . Registration information is available at http://ewsdn.org/registration.php = =20 Best regards, Kostas From nobody Sat Aug 9 08:22:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C63B1A0B13 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2014 02:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.569 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4f3irELjNfi7 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2014 02:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpjc.telefonica.com (smtpjc.telefonica.com [81.47.204.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client 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RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imVai_W5Pknu for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 12:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpjc.telefonica.com (smtpjc.telefonica.com [81.47.204.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB2121A0676 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpjc.telefonica.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id D72ED1B8166; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 21:41:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESTGVMSP111.EUROPE.telefonica.corp (unknown [10.92.4.9]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtpjc.telefonica.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB9CF1B80A7; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 21:41:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.92.5.139) by tls.telefonica.com (10.92.6.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.146.2; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 21:42:03 +0200 Received: from DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.242.192.23) by DB4PR06MB573.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.242.159.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1005.10; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:41:37 +0000 Received: from DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.192.23]) by DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.192.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1005.008; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:41:37 +0000 From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO To: "King, Daniel" , "'sdn@irtf.org'" Thread-Topic: Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: Ac+oNgYu6zahOfNRTeCR5eriC3FgfAO3L9LQ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:41:37 +0000 Message-ID: <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> In-Reply-To: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> 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X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-TM-AS-MML: No Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/_3eOiPeodofBEmrJIFtdSMp5bBY X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 12:44:00 -0700 Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:41:50 -0000 --_002_1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655DB4PR06MB576eurprd06pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Daniel, Adrian, As requested by you, I provide here a number of comments and suggestions to= the draft. I hope you can find them constructive and useful. I have structured my comments in Generic, when they apply to the general ar= chitecture ideas exposed in the draft, and Specific, when they apply to cer= tain points or sections which are identified for facilitating the correspon= ding text. Generic =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- service -awareness. The ABNO architecture does not present an specific m= odule or component responsible to maintain the status of the connectivity s= ervice requested by the NMS/OSS/Application on top. By status I refer to th= e following information: administrative and operational status of the conne= ctivity service; user and/or application which has requested the service; s= ome identifiers (interchanged with the application/NMS/OSS to index the ser= vice); accountability of the resources in use for that service; associated = QoS and policies/priorities to be applied; etc. I see that statefull PCE co= uld cover this in part. But I think the draft should explicitly describe ho= w all of this information is maintained during the service lifecycle. Along different parts of the text it is clear that this service-awareness i= s required in ABNO. For instance: + the first bullet of the introduction mentions the possibility of optimizi= ng traffic flows between applications. For optimizing / re-optimizing it is= needed to know in advance the resources associated to any of the applicati= ons in place, as well as their privileges, QoS, SLAs, etc, and also it is n= eeded to differentiate one service from the others (through some kind of id= entifiers e.g., service-id or circuit-id) + the policy agent propagates policies in ABNO, as indicated in 2.3.1.4. Ho= wever, if there are policies per application or even per user of the applic= ation, then ABNO should keep / handle the status of each connectivity servi= ce. + a similar need arise when considering OAM., as in 2.3.1.6. If the problem= s in the network should be correlated or risen to the affected application,= then it is needed to keep information of the resources per application, as= well as SLA, end points to be tested, kind of data to be reported, etc. Fu= rthermore, if this information can be used for triggering further actions l= ike service recovery (as in section 2.3.2.13) then it is necessary to check= the status and information (priorities, privileges, SLAs, etc) of each ser= vice before performing any recovery action + same comment applies to the reoptimization case in 3.5.2 This service-awareness module or component could come in the form of an add= itional DB to the ABNO architecture feed with the information mentioned bef= ore, plus some logic capable of handling and retrieving that (for instance = part of the information can be retrieved from the statefull PCE). If you ag= ree with this comment, I can provide some contribution on this if you want. .- interaction with SDN controllers: the ABNO architecture supports the SDN= concepts. In fact, it is stated in section 2.3.1.11 that the Provisioning = Manager itself may act as an OpenFlow Controller, and also OpenFlow is ment= ioned in the text as one of the potential protocols for controlling network= resources. (I don't intend to relate SDN only to OpenFlow here, it is jus= t for reference). In the insight over provisioning manager control of netwo= rks, in section 2.3.2.6, a number of protocols are listed, and also some id= eas about potential triggering of actions are provided. What I miss from th= e information before is the capability of ABNO for directly interacting wit= h SDN controllers. That is, that the provisioning manager interacts with an= SDN controller (e.g., through a REST API interface) instead of directly in= teract with network devices. Then, considering it as an option, the usage o= f REST API interfaces should be included in the list for program/configurin= g devices, and the fact of triggering actions with SDN controllers should b= e included in the list of triggered actions through control plane. To illus= trate the concept I have attached slightly modified versions of Figure 5 an= d 15, as examples. This way of positioning ABNO is something we are proposi= ng in the FP7 XIFI project (see for instance [1]). In this case ABNO acts a= s an orchestrator of separated SDN domains, and ABNO is able of interacting= with each of those domains through a REST API with the local controllers. = As an additional interaction, besides of controlling network elements, the = ABNO can obtain topology information from the SDN controller directly (the = topology information obtained from running LLDP in the SDN/OpenFlow environ= ment). .- reporting of resources usage / billing: one missing piece in current ABN= O architecture is the inclusion of reporting capabilities with respect the = usage of the resources in one provisioned service. Such usage reports could= be lately processed for billing purposes, for instance. Something similar = to the existing CDRs in current networks. It is of special interest when ex= ternal applications demand services to a network provider. I guess this cap= ability should be present in the ABNO control interface (section 2.3.2.11) = to inform the applications or the NMS/OSS about this usage. .- resiliency and scalability. Chapter 4 presents some text about survivabi= lity and resiliency in ABNO. In my understanding there is a mix of resilie= ncy and scalability in such text. I would suggest to separate both concepts= . For instance, second paragraph is more related to scalability, in my opin= ion. When talking about the scalability it can be assumed that multiple ins= tances of the different components can be in place, each of them taking ove= r some workload of the total workload offered to ABNO. The workload split c= an be implemented e.g. by technology. The workflows in the ABNO controller = could be the glue of such split workload to compose a complete connectivity= service. However, when talking about resiliency additional functionality h= as to be in place to ensure consistency and to keep the status of the provi= sioned resources among the different instances that provide reliability. Th= e scalability and resiliency features are different and have different need= s, even if they are supported in the same way, i.e., through several instan= ces of the same component. If you share also this vision I can prepare some= text on that, if you wish. Specific =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- In the abstract some services are presented as the main drivers for ABNO= by placing new connectivity requirements. Being that true, however the dra= ft presents a number of other conventional services that are also benefitte= d from the introduction of ABNO. IN fact the list of those conventional ser= vices is longer than the new ones. I can identify services/applications in = sections 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 and 3.6 as conventional services that can take = advantage of ABNO. Considering that, I would suggest to include a new sente= nce (before the last one in the first paragraph) in the abstract remarking = also the benefits for these other cases, for instance: "Additionally, exist= ing services or capabilities like pseudowire connectivity or global concurr= ent optimization can be benefitted from a more comprehensive operation cons= idering the application needs and the network status". .- in section 2.3.1.6 it is mentioned that the OAM handler interacts with t= he devices to perform OAM actions. This implies some access to the control = plane of the devices to trigger that actions. What kind of interface is use= d to that? I2RS, other? .- section 2.3.1.8.1: when talking about the TED it is mentioned that the T= ED may provide information to application services like ALTO. It is not cle= ar to me if you refer to the ALTO Server included in the ABNO architecture = of Figure 1, or to external ALTO clients. In the second case, then it would= be needed to clarify this by including some sentence in the sense that the= TED can act as an ALTO server itself. .- section 2.3.1.9. When talking about ALTO Server it seems that its role i= n the ABNO architecture is to offer information to the applications on top.= However, it can also be used internally by the ABNO components to perform = their corresponding functions e.g. at provisioning time. To that respect, I= wonder if the ALTO module in ABNO could also act as ALTO client of externa= l ALTO Servers if available. This for instance could be useful in multi adm= inistrative domains (somehow similar to the case described in 3.1 but when = each AS is part of a different administrative domain). If so I would sugges= t to include a sentence pointing out such possibility, e.g.: "The ALTO comp= onent in the ABNO architecture could behave also as ALTO client to retrieve= information from external ALTO Servers either for providing a complete net= work view to the Application Service Coordinator, or for allowing the other= modules in ABNO to perform their corresponding tasks". .- section 2.3.2.4. When talking about the protocols for exporting the TED,= the first bullet refers to the ALTO protocol. It is not clear to me if the= interaction with the TED in this case is indirect, i.e. passing through th= e ALTO Server in ABNO architecture, or if it means that the TED actually im= plements the ALTO protocol as NBI. I would suggest to make this clear. .- section 2.3.2.7. The auditing process is referred to the provisioning pr= ocess, but for completeness, it has to be extended to the other two possibl= e workflows: decommissioning or deletion of connectivity services, and the = modification of existing connectivity services. .- section 2.3.2.12. In the second list of bullets, I would include QoS cla= ssification. .- section 3.1. Despite multiple AS are involved in this use case, it seems= that all the AS pertain to the same administrative domain. Is that correct= ? If so, probably it would be nice to include such clarification in the tex= t. .- section 3.7. I bring to your attention the following reference for cross= -stratum optimization with PCE (draft-dhody-pce-cso-enabled-path-computatio= n-06) just in case you consider relevant and worthy refer to that possibili= ty in the text. The architecture presented there fits totally, in my opinio= n, with ABNO, where the NCG + PCE module presented in that draft can be see= n as the ABNO. .- section 6. I would modify a bit the third bullet in the following sense:= "- Management and monitoring of ABNO components" Typos =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- just before section 1.1: ". Network Management Station (NMS) ans Operati= ons Support System (OSS) ." -> ". Network Management Station (NMS) and Oper= ations Support System (OSS) ." .- idem: ". recent developments programmatic ." -> ". recent developments o= f programmatic ." .- section 2.3.1.1: For NMS you span the acronym as Network Management Stat= ion, but it seems to be more proper to talk about Network Management System= . .- section 3.2.1. End of second paragraph. ". remote DCs an be operated ." = -> ". remote DCs can be operated ." .- section 3.2.1. Bullet 1. ". two end points. the actual ." -> ". two end = points. The actual ." .- sentence above Figure 24. ". network such such that ." -> ". network suc= h that ." .- section 3.7. 1st paragraph. ". application and network stratums." -> ". = application and network strata." Best regards, Luis [1] J. Gonz=E1lez, F. =C1lvarez, L.M. Contreras, =D3. Gonz=E1lez, "Interdom= ain Monitoring and Internetworking Connectivity in Federated Infrastructure= s based on Software Defined Networking", Proceedings of 2014 European Confe= rence on Networks and Communications (EuCNC), Bologna, June, 2014 -----Mensaje original----- De: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de King, Daniel Enviado el: viernes, 25 de julio de 2014 20:27 Para: 'sdn@irtf.org' CC: adrian@olddog.co.uk Asunto: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Hi SDN RG'rs, The authors of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture are in the process of= requesting AD-sponsored publication of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architect= ure: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture This I-D is a bit of an architecture and a bit an applicability statement. = It has been presented in SDNRG a couple of times. The last call will obviously pop out sometime, but it would be nice to have= review comments before then. Perhaps you could send your comments to the a= uthors or to the RTGWG list rather than clogging this list with discussion = of an IETF draft. Thanks, Dan ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o --_002_1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655DB4PR06MB576eurprd06pro_ Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document; name="interaction with SDN controllers.docx" Content-Description: interaction with SDN controllers.docx Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="interaction with SDN controllers.docx"; size=15018; creation-date="Mon, 11 Aug 2014 14:59:18 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 11 Aug 2014 14:59:18 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQAJJIeCgQEAAI4FAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIooAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DA01A09E2 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 03:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YTL6F9HWBMLL for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 03:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ignavia.lancs.ac.uk (ignavia.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.25.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F66E1A09E8 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 03:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-1-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.57] helo=EX-1-HT0.lancs.local) by ignavia.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XHsVk-0004X7-QF; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:44:00 +0100 Received: from EX-0-MB2.lancs.local ([fe80::9d98:936b:54d1:c531]) by EX-1-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::d9e8:ad10:d075:a6b6%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:44:00 +0100 From: "King, Daniel" To: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO , "'sdn@irtf.org'" Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: AQGXTe9K7jPxpgE5IvDuDAc/fe8iRwI98pZrnC7NoSA= Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:43:59 +0000 Message-ID: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235DC0B@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [88.97.23.122] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/tGDHdDqgsssxL-8Gckz5gM7VFv0 Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:44:08 -0000 Thanks Luis, this is a really detailed review and very welcome.=20 Br, Dan.=20 -----Original Message----- From: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS = MURILLO Sent: 13 August 2014 20:42 To: King, Daniel; 'sdn@irtf.org' Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architectur= e Dear Daniel, Adrian, As requested by you, I provide here a number of comments and suggestions to= the draft. I hope you can find them constructive and useful. I have structured my comments in Generic, when they apply to the general ar= chitecture ideas exposed in the draft, and Specific, when they apply to cer= tain points or sections which are identified for facilitating the correspon= ding text. Generic =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- service -awareness. The ABNO architecture does not present an specific m= odule or component responsible to maintain the status of the connectivity s= ervice requested by the NMS/OSS/Application on top. By status I refer to th= e following information: administrative and operational status of the conne= ctivity service; user and/or application which has requested the service; s= ome identifiers (interchanged with the application/NMS/OSS to index the ser= vice); accountability of the resources in use for that service; associated = QoS and policies/priorities to be applied; etc. I see that statefull PCE co= uld cover this in part. But I think the draft should explicitly describe ho= w all of this information is maintained during the service lifecycle. Along different parts of the text it is clear that this service-awareness i= s required in ABNO. For instance: + the first bullet of the introduction mentions the possibility of=20 + optimizing traffic flows between applications. For optimizing / re-optimi= zing it is needed to know in advance the resources associated to any of the= applications in place, as well as their privileges, QoS, SLAs, etc, and al= so it is needed to differentiate one service from the others (through some = kind of identifiers e.g., service-id or circuit-id) the policy agent propag= ates policies in ABNO, as indicated in 2.3.1.4. However, if there are polic= ies per application or even per user of the application, then ABNO should k= eep / handle the status of each connectivity service. + a similar need arise when considering OAM., as in 2.3.1.6. If the=20 + problems in the network should be correlated or risen to the affected=20 + application, then it is needed to keep information of the resources=20 + per application, as well as SLA, end points to be tested, kind of data=20 + to be reported, etc. Furthermore, if this information can be used for=20 + triggering further actions like service recovery (as in section=20 + 2.3.2.13) then it is necessary to check the status and information=20 + (priorities, privileges, SLAs, etc) of each service before performing=20 + any recovery action same comment applies to the reoptimization case in=20 + 3.5.2 This service-awareness module or component could come in the form of an add= itional DB to the ABNO architecture feed with the information mentioned bef= ore, plus some logic capable of handling and retrieving that (for instance = part of the information can be retrieved from the statefull PCE). If you ag= ree with this comment, I can provide some contribution on this if you want. .- interaction with SDN controllers: the ABNO architecture supports the SDN= concepts. In fact, it is stated in section 2.3.1.11 that the Provisioning = Manager itself may act as an OpenFlow Controller, and also OpenFlow is ment= ioned in the text as one of the potential protocols for controlling network= resources. (I don't intend to relate SDN only to OpenFlow here, it is jus= t for reference). In the insight over provisioning manager control of netwo= rks, in section 2.3.2.6, a number of protocols are listed, and also some id= eas about potential triggering of actions are provided. What I miss from th= e information before is the capability of ABNO for directly interacting wit= h SDN controllers. That is, that the provisioning manager interacts with an= SDN controller (e.g., through a REST API interface) instead of directly in= teract with network devices. Then, considering it as an option, the usage o= f REST API interfaces should be included in the list for program/configurin= g devices, and the fact of triggering actions with SDN controllers should b= e included in the list of triggered actions through control plane. To illus= trate the concept I have attached slightly modified versions of Figure 5 an= d 15, as examples. This way of positioning ABNO is something we are proposi= ng in the FP7 XIFI project (see for instance [1]). In this case ABNO acts a= s an orchestrator of separated SDN domains, and ABNO is able of interacting= with each of those domains through a REST API with the local controllers. = As an additional interaction, besides of controlling network elements, the = ABNO can obtain topology information from the SDN controller directly (the = topology information obtained from running LLDP in the SDN/OpenFlow environ= ment). .- reporting of resources usage / billing: one missing piece in current ABN= O architecture is the inclusion of reporting capabilities with respect the = usage of the resources in one provisioned service. Such usage reports could= be lately processed for billing purposes, for instance. Something similar = to the existing CDRs in current networks. It is of special interest when ex= ternal applications demand services to a network provider. I guess this cap= ability should be present in the ABNO control interface (section 2.3.2.11) = to inform the applications or the NMS/OSS about this usage. .- resiliency and scalability. Chapter 4 presents some text about survivabi= lity and resiliency in ABNO. In my understanding there is a mix of resilie= ncy and scalability in such text. I would suggest to separate both concepts= . For instance, second paragraph is more related to scalability, in my opin= ion. When talking about the scalability it can be assumed that multiple ins= tances of the different components can be in place, each of them taking ove= r some workload of the total workload offered to ABNO. The workload split c= an be implemented e.g. by technology. The workflows in the ABNO controller = could be the glue of such split workload to compose a complete connectivity= service. However, when talking about resiliency additional functionality h= as to be in place to ensure consistency and to keep the status of the provi= sioned resources among the different instances that provide reliability. Th= e scalability and resiliency features are different and have different need= s, even if they are supported in the same way, i.e., through several instan= ces of the same component. If you share also this vision I can prepare some= text on that, if you wish. Specific =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- In the abstract some services are presented as the main drivers for ABNO= by placing new connectivity requirements. Being that true, however the dra= ft presents a number of other conventional services that are also benefitte= d from the introduction of ABNO. IN fact the list of those conventional ser= vices is longer than the new ones. I can identify services/applications in = sections 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 and 3.6 as conventional services that can take = advantage of ABNO. Considering that, I would suggest to include a new sente= nce (before the last one in the first paragraph) in the abstract remarking = also the benefits for these other cases, for instance: "Additionally, exist= ing services or capabilities like pseudowire connectivity or global concurr= ent optimization can be benefitted from a more comprehensive operation cons= idering the application needs and the network status". .- in section 2.3.1.6 it is mentioned that the OAM handler interacts with t= he devices to perform OAM actions. This implies some access to the control = plane of the devices to trigger that actions. What kind of interface is use= d to that? I2RS, other? .- section 2.3.1.8.1: when talking about the TED it is mentioned that the T= ED may provide information to application services like ALTO. It is not cle= ar to me if you refer to the ALTO Server included in the ABNO architecture = of Figure 1, or to external ALTO clients. In the second case, then it would= be needed to clarify this by including some sentence in the sense that the= TED can act as an ALTO server itself. .- section 2.3.1.9. When talking about ALTO Server it seems that its role i= n the ABNO architecture is to offer information to the applications on top.= However, it can also be used internally by the ABNO components to perform = their corresponding functions e.g. at provisioning time. To that respect, I= wonder if the ALTO module in ABNO could also act as ALTO client of externa= l ALTO Servers if available. This for instance could be useful in multi adm= inistrative domains (somehow similar to the case described in 3.1 but when = each AS is part of a different administrative domain). If so I would sugges= t to include a sentence pointing out such possibility, e.g.: "The ALTO comp= onent in the ABNO architecture could behave also as ALTO client to retrieve= information from external ALTO Servers either for providing a complete net= work view to the Application Service Coordinator, or for allowing the other= modules in ABNO to perform their corresponding tasks". .- section 2.3.2.4. When talking about the protocols for exporting the TED,= the first bullet refers to the ALTO protocol. It is not clear to me if the= interaction with the TED in this case is indirect, i.e. passing through th= e ALTO Server in ABNO architecture, or if it means that the TED actually im= plements the ALTO protocol as NBI. I would suggest to make this clear. .- section 2.3.2.7. The auditing process is referred to the provisioning pr= ocess, but for completeness, it has to be extended to the other two possibl= e workflows: decommissioning or deletion of connectivity services, and the = modification of existing connectivity services. .- section 2.3.2.12. In the second list of bullets, I would include QoS cla= ssification. .- section 3.1. Despite multiple AS are involved in this use case, it seems= that all the AS pertain to the same administrative domain. Is that correct= ? If so, probably it would be nice to include such clarification in the tex= t. .- section 3.7. I bring to your attention the following reference for cross= -stratum optimization with PCE (draft-dhody-pce-cso-enabled-path-computatio= n-06) just in case you consider relevant and worthy refer to that possibili= ty in the text. The architecture presented there fits totally, in my opinio= n, with ABNO, where the NCG + PCE module presented in that draft can be see= n as the ABNO. .- section 6. I would modify a bit the third bullet in the following sense:= "- Management and monitoring of ABNO components" Typos =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D .- just before section 1.1: ". Network Management Station (NMS) ans Operati= ons Support System (OSS) ." -> ". Network Management Station (NMS) and Oper= ations Support System (OSS) ." .- idem: ". recent developments programmatic ." -> ". recent developments o= f programmatic ." .- section 2.3.1.1: For NMS you span the acronym as Network Management Stat= ion, but it seems to be more proper to talk about Network Management System= . .- section 3.2.1. End of second paragraph. ". remote DCs an be operated ." = -> ". remote DCs can be operated ." .- section 3.2.1. Bullet 1. ". two end points. the actual ." -> ". two end = points. The actual ." .- sentence above Figure 24. ". network such such that ." -> ". network suc= h that ." .- section 3.7. 1st paragraph. ". application and network stratums." -> ". = application and network strata." Best regards, Luis [1] J. Gonz=E1lez, F. =C1lvarez, L.M. Contreras, =D3. Gonz=E1lez, "Interdom= ain Monitoring and Internetworking Connectivity in Federated Infrastructure= s based on Software Defined Networking", Proceedings of 2014 European Confe= rence on Networks and Communications (EuCNC), Bologna, June, 2014 -----Mensaje original----- De: sdn [mailto:sdn-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de King, Daniel Enviado el:= viernes, 25 de julio de 2014 20:27 Para: 'sdn@irtf.org' CC: adrian@olddog.co.uk Asunto: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Hi SDN RG'rs, The authors of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture are in the process of= requesting AD-sponsored publication of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architect= ure: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture This I-D is a bit of an architecture and a bit an applicability statement. = It has been presented in SDNRG a couple of times. The last call will obviously pop out sometime, but it would be nice to have= review comments before then. Perhaps you could send your comments to the a= uthors or to the RTGWG list rather than clogging this list with discussion = of an IETF draft. Thanks, Dan ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o From nobody Fri Aug 15 12:28:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7631A0334 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4eVbu5VIoKq for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C11E1A0329 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s7FJSMe6005111; Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:28:22 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s7FJSJa5005101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:28:20 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO'" References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:28:17 +0100 Message-ID: <057601cfb8bf$123bffa0$36b3fee0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGXTe9K7jPxpgE5IvDuDAc/fe8iRwI98pZrnDBjIdA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1018-20882.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--20.257-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--20.257-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtFfsB4HYR80Zn7siEtWY367nophrTcsI7aiUP5F9sCEMDVC HPJmvwzPJL8mkbIkZkehytvxIKsnHFtoL3mbtsuEo65WJt1k1O/omPrNi98UBPgnJH5vm2+ghIL j1WsdJh1EC+Jo3tdOmyLjYb+EpkLlrPo38HhFKcFK2kj7j4ouAAiBYiT9V2dS82GrliQly0vLhQ EsYF8B/Bj+hNE6L9w9icCBKNeRil8PquTweLs4F+w8wbnnSw8blnrMq7Sriu2gfNZxkECQ6Wlys 1PDhWLoEyCkxlrpZJZold3pRjntHehRubJazHK+q1ZJZ2z+SbYpWss5kPUFdCJ8zskw0dbrNf1z 7gmEy8X5Dyt2Bypj4S+CBo3doE0jEK2QongmqLK628cXbnOhT5lhiS3ydre3ki4gjoJwH3NDl4Z dgFuvG0kZTrliLI1hCBaYMqMvhUL93AFKImnqn/2AMpMTuGQQKpBqUyGzhQFQvOmOsSGiOuq1OW Ira/Gz+buG68KG7aBG7o6i6QXZtO9d1beeNFr0bMGKOuLn5FXk9tYQF35fgTsyZ/vGp8aU6TAcY s0S+5yOZeCFEeL54V4peeHUfywbq87gT7hcKkJjoaO27r+3fRdEegv9bhjqKAzGd8VeOIgCJL79 +GI8VjiPo48abNxM120+fK/IrmvooBznyyubUkbKkLkJUU4fyeUl7aCTy8hN0lGvjC8xBchANvR Zikq1Oi/42e6Tu62i4phDigIRc8IkeKFs1qVhTkSuJnIpkEu94JvJnfFrHifO9H6Y/dy+Jn7OWu OBHWeX9RW0BYuQEgFjnZyRyQbkJec95GGNSEGeAiCmPx4NwLTrdaH1ZWqCpvI8UZOf47jUZxEAl FPo846HM5rqDwqtlExlQIQeRG0= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/ZwJn0SD4prq-TXqBoJwudOcnZho Cc: "'King, Daniel'" , sdn@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 19:28:29 -0000 Hi Luis, Many thanks. Discussions in line. > Generic > ======= > > .- service -awareness. The ABNO architecture does not present an specific > module or component responsible to maintain the status of the connectivity > service requested by the NMS/OSS/Application on top. By status I refer to the > following information: administrative and operational status of the connectivity > service; user and/or application which has requested the service; some > identifiers (interchanged with the application/NMS/OSS to index the service); > accountability of the resources in use for that service; associated QoS and > policies/priorities to be applied; etc. I see that statefull PCE could cover this in > part. But I think the draft should explicitly describe how all of this information is > maintained during the service lifecycle. I think I see what you are asking about, and I believe this is the role of the ABNO Controller. That is the component that receives service requests from the Application Service Coordinator and is responsible for working out how the service can be realised and for reporting back about the status of the service. On the other hand, in some circumstances it may be the Application Service Coordinator that has this responsibility. That is, if the service is particularly complicated or if the "application" is very unaware of what a "service" is. Now, you specifically mention "connectivity service requests." These are, I suppose, pretty much the simplest services and I would expect that the ABNO Controller to have the responsibility both for enabling the services and for reporting their status. Although there are some "fast paths" in our model. Thus, an application could control the network directly, and can receive notifications direct from the OAM Handler. > Along different parts of the text it is clear that this service-awareness is required > in ABNO. For instance: > + the first bullet of the introduction mentions the possibility of optimizing traffic > flows between applications. For optimizing / re-optimizing it is needed to know in > advance the resources associated to any of the applications in place, as well as > their privileges, QoS, SLAs, etc, and also it is needed to differentiate one service > from the others (through some kind of identifiers e.g., service-id or circuit-id) I think that what would happen in this case is that the Application Service Coordinator would present a package of information to the ABNO Controller. If the services had already been established by the ABNO Controller, this could be just the service identifiers, but other information (such as modifiers of the service expressed as likely traffic demands and so forth) would make the operation more fruitful. The ABNO Controller would then have the job of achieving the optimization. Of course, the action would be under the influence of policies that had already been installed... > + the policy agent propagates policies in ABNO, as indicated in 2.3.1.4. However, if > there are policies per application or even per user of the application, then ABNO > should keep / handle the status of each connectivity service. Agreed. > + a similar need arise when considering OAM., as in 2.3.1.6. If the problems in the > network should be correlated or risen to the affected application, then it is > needed to keep information of the resources per application, as well as SLA, end > points to be tested, kind of data to be reported, etc. Furthermore, if this > information can be used for triggering further actions like service recovery (as in > section 2.3.2.13) then it is necessary to check the status and information > (priorities, privileges, SLAs, etc) of each service before performing any recovery > action I think I agree as well. It is somewhat hard to draw all interactions between all components in the architecture. The OAM Handler will need to understand which services have been affected by faults that it learns of. In some cases (CC or CV) this is pretty simple. In other cases (link down) more active correlation is required. I think there is a trade of work between the OAM Handler and the ABNO Controller for a lot of this work. > + same comment applies to the reoptimization case in 3.5.2 > This service-awareness module or component could come in the form of an > additional DB to the ABNO architecture feed with the information mentioned > before, plus some logic capable of handling and retrieving that (for instance part > of the information can be retrieved from the statefull PCE). If you agree with this > comment, I can provide some contribution on this if you want. I think you are saying that, in order to achieve its function, the ABNO controller will need a database that maps services to underlying network resources. I agree that the ABNO controller would need to keep this state information, and that the information would need to be "persistent". I am wondering whether this database is internal or external to the ABNO Controller. If it is internal, then it is just an implementation choice for the ABNO Controller - it may be a necessary function of the Controller, but it is not an externally visible feature. If it is external then it needs to be described (probably in 2.3.1.8 with a reference from 2.3.1.3), but I would like to understand which other components or external agents examine this database - perhaps your point is that the OAM Handler may look at it, and that it could be exposed to the applications so that they can 'know' what is happening in the network. If you have thoughts on that, I'd be happy to see some text. Or, if I have basically captured it in the previous paragraph, I can make the edits myself without any pain. > .- interaction with SDN controllers: the ABNO architecture supports the SDN > concepts. In fact, it is stated in section 2.3.1.11 that the Provisioning Manager > itself may act as an OpenFlow Controller, and also OpenFlow is mentioned in the > text as one of the potential protocols for controlling network resources. (I don't > intend to relate SDN only to OpenFlow here, it is just for reference). In the > insight over provisioning manager control of networks, in section 2.3.2.6, a > number of protocols are listed, and also some ideas about potential triggering of > actions are provided. What I miss from the information before is the capability of > ABNO for directly interacting with SDN controllers. That is, that the provisioning > manager interacts with an SDN controller (e.g., through a REST API interface) > instead of directly interact with network devices. So I'm a bit confused. Having said that the Provisioning Manager may act as an SDN controller, what does it mean for "ABNO to interact with an SDN controller"? The point, I think of the ABNO architecture is to pull together all of the components that may operate and manage a network. Thus the SDN controller is within the ABNO architecture not external to it. On the other hand, we did not want to tie this architecture to the SDN architecture or "buzz". It is what it is. SDN is a profile/application of ABNO, or SDN is something on its own. This is neither competition for SDN nor an attempt to subsume it. > Then, considering it as an > option, the usage of REST API interfaces should be included in the list for > program/configuring devices, and the fact of triggering actions with SDN > controllers should be included in the list of triggered actions through control > plane. To illustrate the concept I have attached slightly modified versions of > Figure 5 and 15, as examples. This way of positioning ABNO is something we are > proposing in the FP7 XIFI project (see for instance [1]). In this case ABNO acts as > an orchestrator of separated SDN domains, and ABNO is able of interacting with > each of those domains through a REST API with the local controllers. As an > additional interaction, besides of controlling network elements, the ABNO can > obtain topology information from the SDN controller directly (the topology > information obtained from running LLDP in the SDN/OpenFlow environment). So, I think, consistent with my previous comment, the REST API (such as the Floodlight API) would sit between the ABN Controller and the Provisioning Manager. This is also consistent with the Floodlight Controller having the job of determining the network path before programming the network elements. In other words, the controller (Provisioning Manager) needs to consult a component (that may be coded as internal, but which is functionally distinct) that computes paths (PCE). So I'm adding 2.3.2.12 ABNO Provisioning Requests Under some circumstances the ABNO Controller may make requests direct to the Provisioning Manager. For example, if the Provisioning Manager is acting as an SDN Controller then the ABNO Controller may use one of the APIs defined to allow requests to me made to the SDN Controller (such as the Floodlight REST API [Flood]). Alternatively, since the Provisioning Manager may also receive instructions from a stateful PCE, the use of PCEP extensions might be appropriate in some cases [I-D.crabbe-pce-pce-initiated-lsp]. > .- reporting of resources usage / billing: one missing piece in current ABNO > architecture is the inclusion of reporting capabilities with respect the usage of the > resources in one provisioned service. Such usage reports could be lately > processed for billing purposes, for instance. Something similar to the existing > CDRs in current networks. It is of special interest when external applications > demand services to a network provider. I guess this capability should be present > in the ABNO control interface (section 2.3.2.11) to inform the applications or the > NMS/OSS about this usage. Right. We struggle to show every possible interface or use case, but you're right about how this would be done. > .- resiliency and scalability. Chapter 4 presents some text about survivability and > resiliency in ABNO. In my understanding there is a mix of resiliency and scalability > in such text. I would suggest to separate both concepts. For instance, second > paragraph is more related to scalability, in my opinion. When talking about the > scalability it can be assumed that multiple instances of the different components > can be in place, each of them taking over some workload of the total workload > offered to ABNO. The workload split can be implemented e.g. by technology. The > workflows in the ABNO controller could be the glue of such split workload to > compose a complete connectivity service. However, when talking about > resiliency additional functionality has to be in place to ensure consistency and to > keep the status of the provisioned resources among the different instances that > provide reliability. The scalability and resiliency features are different and have > different needs, even if they are supported in the same way, i.e., through > several instances of the same component. If you share also this vision I can > prepare some text on that, if you wish. That would be interesting. I think I agree that resilience may need additional functionality and state synchronisation in some cases. On the other hand, in some cases, especially when seamless resiliency is not needed, it is enough to switch to another instance and repeat the request (consider issuing a request to a PCE that fails - you would just re-issue the request to a new PCE). I don't believe that this document has to describe every possible interaction between all components, but I will add a sentence to the penultimate paragraph of Section 4... In some circumstances state synchronization between instances of components may be needed in order to facilitate seamless resiliency. > Specific > ====== > > .- In the abstract some services are presented as the main drivers for ABNO by > placing new connectivity requirements. Being that true, however the draft > presents a number of other conventional services that are also benefitted from > the introduction of ABNO. IN fact the list of those conventional services is longer > than the new ones. I can identify services/applications in sections 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 > and 3.6 as conventional services that can take advantage of ABNO. Considering > that, I would suggest to include a new sentence (before the last one in the first > paragraph) in the abstract remarking also the benefits for these other cases, for > instance: "Additionally, existing services or capabilities like pseudowire > connectivity or global concurrent optimization can be benefitted from a more > comprehensive operation considering the application needs and the network > status". Yes. Edited a little. > .- in section 2.3.1.6 it is mentioned that the OAM handler interacts with the > devices to perform OAM actions. This implies some access to the control plane of > the devices to trigger that actions. What kind of interface is used to that? I2RS, > other? The reference loop is a bit squiggly... 2.3.1.6 describes the OAM Handler, but 2.3.2.14 describes interfaces to the OAM Handler. 2.3.2.14 includes a back-pointer to 2.3.2.1 for the mechanisms that might be used. You're right that I2RS (but what is that?) might also be used, or maybe Netconf/YANG is used for I2RS and for this purpose? > .- section 2.3.1.8.1: when talking about the TED it is mentioned that the TED may > provide information to application services like ALTO. It is not clear to me if you > refer to the ALTO Server included in the ABNO architecture of Figure 1, or to > external ALTO clients. In the second case, then it would be needed to clarify this > by including some sentence in the sense that the TED can act as an ALTO server > itself. I don't think that external ALTO clients would be interested in the content of the TED in its raw form. I think it needs to pass through an ALTO server. > .- section 2.3.1.9. When talking about ALTO Server it seems that its role in the > ABNO architecture is to offer information to the applications on top. However, it > can also be used internally by the ABNO components to perform their > corresponding functions e.g. at provisioning time. To that respect, I wonder if the > ALTO module in ABNO could also act as ALTO client of external ALTO Servers if > available. This for instance could be useful in multi administrative domains > (somehow similar to the case described in 3.1 but when each AS is part of a > different administrative domain). If so I would suggest to include a sentence > pointing out such possibility, e.g.: "The ALTO component in the ABNO > architecture could behave also as ALTO client to retrieve information from > external ALTO Servers either for providing a complete network view to the > Application Service Coordinator, or for allowing the other modules in ABNO to > perform their corresponding tasks". Right. But (again) we can't possibly show or discuss every interaction between every pair of components or every possible use case. I am slightly dubious, however, about where such an "external ALTO server would reside." Note that this is an architecture, not an implementation guide, so I think that the situation you describe is really that one ALTO server may act as a client for another ALTO server to enable them to serve different but cooperating networks. > .- section 2.3.2.4. When talking about the protocols for exporting the TED, the > first bullet refers to the ALTO protocol. It is not clear to me if the interaction with > the TED in this case is indirect, i.e. passing through the ALTO Server in ABNO > architecture, or if it means that the TED actually implements the ALTO protocol as > NBI. I would suggest to make this clear. I personally believe that if the topology is being exported for ALTO uses, it should pass through an ALTO server. However, the ALTO protocol is a potential mechanisms for exporting topologies, and the TED contains topology. So the point here is that the *protocol* could be ALTO without the use case being ALTO. > .- section 2.3.2.7. The auditing process is referred to the provisioning process, but > for completeness, it has to be extended to the other two possible workflows: > decommissioning or deletion of connectivity services, and the modification of > existing connectivity services. Yes. Good point. Change made to text. > .- section 2.3.2.12. In the second list of bullets, I would include QoS classification. Yup. > .- section 3.1. Despite multiple AS are involved in this use case, it seems that all > the AS pertain to the same administrative domain. Is that correct? If so, probably > it would be nice to include such clarification in the text. I don't see what brings you to this conclusion. There are several approaches shown in the section and the choice may depend on the relationship between ASes. For example, cooperating H-PCEs require that the PCEs can, erm, cooperate. Yet the referenced 5520 allows "secrecy" in this mode of operation. Alternatively, Figure 7 shows a different way to cut the cake. > .- section 3.7. I bring to your attention the following reference for cross-stratum > optimization with PCE (draft-dhody-pce-cso-enabled-path-computation-06) just > in case you consider relevant and worthy refer to that possibility in the text. The > architecture presented there fits totally, in my opinion, with ABNO, where the > NCG + PCE module presented in that draft can be seen as the ABNO. A shameless advertisement :-) Actually, I am embarrassed to see that the figure in Section 3.7.2 is very strikingly similar to Figure 1 in your draft that has been there since your -00 revision. No doubt this is because Young was the contributing author of Section 3.7 and is also a co-author on your draft. Nevertheless, I will add in the cross-reference to make this clear and to show some relationship between the work. > .- section 6. I would modify a bit the third bullet in the following sense: "- > Management and monitoring of ABNO components" Yeah, OK. > Typos > ===== > > .- just before section 1.1: ". Network Management Station (NMS) ans Operations > Support System (OSS) ." -> ". Network Management Station (NMS) and > Operations Support System (OSS) ." yes > .- idem: ". recent developments programmatic ." -> ". recent developments of > programmatic ." s/of/in/ > .- section 2.3.1.1: For NMS you span the acronym as Network Management > Station, but it seems to be more proper to talk about Network Management > System. Yes, http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-style-guide/abbrev.expansion.txt has "System" > .- section 3.2.1. End of second paragraph. ". remote DCs an be operated ." -> ". > remote DCs can be operated ." yes > .- section 3.2.1. Bullet 1. ". two end points. the actual ." -> ". two end points. The > actual ." yes > .- sentence above Figure 24. ". network such such that ." -> ". network such that > ." yes > .- section 3.7. 1st paragraph. ". application and network stratums." -> ". > application and network strata." Yeah. Once again, many thanks. You forgot... Section 7, add "Luis Contreras" Cheers, Adrian From nobody Tue Aug 19 15:05:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442F71A06F4 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sge4TE5GnK8s for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A27831A017E for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml702-chm.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CFJ82867; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:05:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from DFWEML706-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.225]) by dfweml702-chm.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.217]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:05:29 -0700 From: Leeyoung To: "sdn@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: CFP Special Issue on Advances in Path Computation Element: Optical Switching and Networking (OSN) Thread-Index: Ac+7+a6Q7dg9FlxVQaCWu3GIRqHCgA== Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:05:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E1729C1E38F@dfweml706-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: ANok AcVT Aw47 BHdL BjWM CRzH CUi7 C0ft C+76 DYHf GWHZ GmxZ G6wz H0vD JgJ3 J5/q; 1; cwBkAG4AQABpAHIAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA; Sosha1_v1; 7; {D4532C19-55F7-4046-B69C-3B13B7D2FEED}; bABlAGUAeQBvAHUAbgBnAEAAaAB1AGEAdwBlAGkALgBjAG8AbQA=; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:05:26 GMT; QwBGAFAAIABTAHAAZQBjAGkAYQBsACAASQBzAHMAdQBlACAAbwBuACAAQQBkAHYAYQBuAGMAZQBzACAAaQBuACAAUABhAHQAaAAgAEMAbwBtAHAAdQB0AGEAdABpAG8AbgAgAEUAbABlAG0AZQBuAHQAOgAgAE8AcAB0AGkAYwBhAGwAIABTAHcAaQB0AGMAaABpAG4AZwAgAGEAbgBkACAATgBlAHQAdwBvAHIAawBpAG4AZwAgACgATwBTAE4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {D4532C19-55F7-4046-B69C-3B13B7D2FEED} x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.105] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E1729C1E38Fdfweml706chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/TMhpDcBf7oZ_1SSPSzJBhyzyiaE Subject: [Sdn] CFP Special Issue on Advances in Path Computation Element: Optical Switching and Networking (OSN) X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:05:36 -0000 --_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E1729C1E38Fdfweml706chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable **************************************************** * Our apologies for multiple and cross-postings * **************************************************** Call for Papers Special Issue on Advances in Path Computation Element Optical Switching and Networking (OSN), Elsevier http://www.journals.elsevier.com/optical-switching-and-networking/call-for-= papers/special-issue-on-advances-in-path-computation-element/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Full article submission: December 31st, 2014 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Aim and scope --------------------------------- The Path Computation Element (PCE) was originally designed as the de-facto= solution for constraint-based path computation across multiple domain as w= ell as multiple layer networks. However, aligned to the novel concepts link= ed to virtualization and functions decoupling, the PCE is becoming an impor= tant piece of the Software Defined Networking (SDN) paradigm and presents t= he most relevant architectures. Open Source Industry initiatives such asOpe= nDaylight include the PCE within its component list. The inherent capacity embedded in the PCE concept to outsource network func= tionalities to external network devices is paving the way to extend the mai= n PCE concept to different network scenarios, ranging from traditional tele= com networks to new smart paradigms such as sensor networks, Internet of Th= ings or Intelligent Transport Systems. Indeed, the role of PCE has widened = from a mere path computation function to an entity able to control and opti= mize any kind of network. In fact, the IETF PCE is evolving into a powerful= and flexible platform that can be applied to a variety of technology areas This special issue aims at collecting advances related to the use of path = computation element in different network environments. Research articles a= re solicited in (but not limited to) the following topics: 1) Use of path computation in the context of: * Optical Transport Networks * Flexi-grid networks * Multi-domain networks * Software Defined Networks (ABNO architecture) * Data-centers * Interconnection of Data Centers * Sensor networks * Internet of Things * Novel Internet Architectures and innovative network paradigms 2) Topics such as * Algorithms for path computation * Convergence of PCE and SDN * Stateful PCE * Protocol Extensions * PCE Software architecture and Open-Source Efforts * Traffic Engineering Database Modeling, * Optical transport Network abstraction * Packet Optical Convergence and Integration * Standardization * Role of PCE in Software Defined Optical Transport Networks. * PCE applicability to novel Internet architectures Submission instructions: --------------------------------- All submissions must be original work not previously published or current= ly under review by any other journal. Partial overlap with previously publ= ished conference or workshop papers is acceptable, but must be disclosed at= the time of submission. Submission, review, and decision process will use= the usual Elsevier OSN portal, accessible through http://ees.elsevier.com/= osn/admin/default.asp. During submission, please make sure to select 'SI: P= ath Computation Element ' when you reach the "Article Type" step. More deta= ils about the journal in general, and author guidelines, can be found from = http://ees.elsevier.com/osn/ Timeline --------------------------------- Full article submission: December 31st, 2014 Acceptance/rejection/revision: April 30, 2015 Revised manuscripts: June 30, 2015 Final manuscripts due: July 31st, 2015 Publication date: First Quarter of 2016 Guest Editors Oscar Gonzalez de Dios oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com Xavi Masip xmasip@ac.upc.edu Young Lee Leeyoung@huawei.com --_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E1729C1E38Fdfweml706chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

***************************= *************************

* Our apologies for multipl= e and cross-postings *

***************************= *************************

 

Call for Papers<= /span>

 

Special Issue on Advances i= n Path Computation Element

Optical Switching and Netwo= rking (OSN), Elsevier

 

http://www.journals.elsevier.= com/optical-switching-and-networking/call-for-papers/special-issue-on-advan= ces-in-path-computation-element/

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D

Full article submission: De= cember 31st, 2014

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D

 

 

Aim and scope=

------------------------= --------- 

 The Path Computation Element (PCE) was or= iginally designed as the de-facto solution for constraint-based path comput= ation across multiple domain as well as multiple layer networks. However, aligned to the novel concepts linked to virtualization and functi= ons decoupling, the PCE is becoming an important piece of the Software Defi= ned Networking (SDN) paradigm and presents the most relevant architectures.= Open Source Industry initiatives such asOpenDaylight include the PCE within its component list.<= /span>

The inherent capacity embedded in the PCE conce= pt to outsource network functionalities to external network devices is pavi= ng the way to extend the main PCE concept to different network scenarios, ranging from traditional telecom networks to new smart = paradigms such as sensor networks, Internet of Things or Intelligent Transp= ort Systems. Indeed, the role of PCE has widened from a mere path computati= on function to an entity able to control and optimize any kind of network. In fact, the IETF PCE is evolvin= g into a powerful and flexible platform that can be applied to a variety of= technology areas

This special issue aims at collecting advances = related to the use of  path computation element in different network e= nvironments.  Research articles are solicited in (but not limited to) the following topics:

  1) Use of path computation in the contex= t of:

  • Optical Transport Networks
  • Flexi-grid networks
  • Multi-domain networks
  • Software Defined Networks (ABNO architecture)
  • Data-centers
  • Interconnection of Data Centers
  • Sensor networks
  • Internet of Things
  • Novel Internet Architectures and innovative network paradigms

2) Topics such as

  • Algorithms for path computation
  • Convergence of PCE and SDN
  • Stateful PCE
  • Protocol Extensions
  • PCE Software architecture and Open-Source Efforts
  • Traffic Engineering Database Modeling,
  • Optical transport Network abstraction
  • Packet Optical Convergence and Integration
  • Standardization
  • Role of PCE in Software Defined Optical Transport Networks.
  • PCE applicability to novel Internet architectures

 

Submission instructions:=

------------------------= ---------

  All submissions must= be original work not previously published or currently under review b= y any other journal.  Partial overlap with previously published c= onference or workshop papers is acceptable, but must be disclosed at the time o= f submission.  Submission, review, and decision process will use = the usual Elsevier OSN portal, accessible through http://ees.els= evier.com/osn/admin/default.asp. During submission, please make sure to select 'SI: Path Computati= on Element ' when you reach the "Article Type" step. Mo= re details about the journal in general, and author guidelines, can be= found from http://ees.elsevier.com/osn/

Timeline

---------------------------------=

Full article submission: December 31st, 2014 Acceptance/rejection/revision: April 30, 2015
Revised manuscripts: June 30, 2015
Final manuscripts due: July 31st, 2015
Publication date: First Quarter of 2016

Guest Editors

Oscar Gonzalez de Dios
os= car.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com

Xavi Masip
xmasip@ac.upc.edu

Young Lee
Leeyoung@huawei.co= m

 

--_000_7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E1729C1E38Fdfweml706chm_-- From nobody Wed Aug 20 09:13:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5651A006C for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zzLqD1jogw2M for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpjc.telefonica.com (smtpjc.telefonica.com [81.47.204.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799C81A0062 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpjc.telefonica.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24791B8173; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:49:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESTGVMSP114.EUROPE.telefonica.corp (unknown [10.92.4.9]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtpjc.telefonica.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA6FA1B816B; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:49:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (10.92.5.139) by tls.telefonica.com (10.93.6.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.146.2; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:49:44 +0200 Received: from AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.242.248.142) by AM3PR06MB564.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.242.248.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1010.18; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:49:32 +0000 Received: from AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.248.142]) by AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.248.142]) with mapi id 15.00.1010.016; Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:49:32 +0000 From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Thread-Topic: Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: Ac+oNgYu6zahOfNRTeCR5eriC3FgfAO3L9LQAGsSuoAAH3vXEA== Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:49:31 +0000 Message-ID: <53f529f494944a67962851889400606e@AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <057601cfb8bf$123bffa0$36b3fee0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <057601cfb8bf$123bffa0$36b3fee0$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [90.174.4.69] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;UriScan:; x-forefront-prvs: 03077579FF x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019006)(979002)(6009001)(59124003)(199003)(189002)(51914003)(51444003)(99396002)(81342001)(64706001)(230783001)(74316001)(21056001)(76176999)(50986999)(54356999)(101416001)(83072002)(31966008)(86362001)(83322001)(95666004)(4396001)(106356001)(66066001)(110136001)(20776003)(19580395003)(85852003)(19580405001)(33646002)(80022001)(76482001)(87936001)(105586002)(107046002)(77982001)(2351001)(79102001)(74662001)(46102001)(92566001)(74502001)(99936001)(2656002)(81542001)(76576001)(108616004)(85306004)(2501001)(24736002)(969003)(989001)(999001)(1009001)(1019001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR06MB564; H:AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: telefonica.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com; Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_53f529f494944a67962851889400606eAM3PR06MB563eurprd06pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-TM-AS-MML: No Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/ai_lo4fBiz76AhlGLVQuvcMqaFE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:13:15 -0700 Cc: "'King, Daniel'" , "sdn@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:50:02 -0000 --_002_53f529f494944a67962851889400606eAM3PR06MB563eurprd06pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, Thanks for the clarifications. Please, find additional comments/thoughts be= low for some of the topics. For the rest of the points, they become now cle= ar to me after your reply. -----Mensaje original----- De: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk] Enviado el: viernes, 15 de agosto de 2014 21:28 Para: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO CC: 'King, Daniel'; sdn@irtf.org Asunto: RE: Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture ... > + same comment applies to the reoptimization case in 3.5.2 > This service-awareness module or component could come in the form of > an additional DB to the ABNO architecture feed with the information > mentioned before, plus some logic capable of handling and retrieving > that (for instance part > of the information can be retrieved from the statefull PCE). If you > agree with this > comment, I can provide some contribution on this if you want. I think you are saying that, in order to achieve its function, the ABNO con= troller will need a database that maps services to underlying network resou= rces. I agree that the ABNO controller would need to keep this state inform= ation, and that the information would need to be "persistent". I am wondering whether this database is internal or external to the ABNO Co= ntroller. If it is internal, then it is just an implementation choice for t= he ABNO Controller - it may be a necessary function of the Controller, but = it is not an externally visible feature. If it is external then it needs t= o be described (probably in 2.3.1.8 with a reference from 2.3.1.3), but I w= ould like to understand which other components or external agents examine t= his database - perhaps your point is that the OAM Handler may look at it, a= nd that it could be exposed to the applications so that they can 'know' wha= t is happening in the network. If you have thoughts on that, I'd be happy to see some text. Or, if I have = basically captured it in the previous paragraph, I can make the edits mysel= f without any pain. [Luis>>] I think that the most appropriate case would be to consider it as = a DB external to the ABNO Controller. I see a number of actions (implemente= d by ABNO components or external modules) using this DB: .- recovery: the DB is queried to retrieve state of the service to be recov= ered .- OAM: alarm correlation, reporting to the corresponding application, etc .- resource usage: CDR like information .- provisioning / deletion / modification of resources as per application r= equests. .- network planning: the info the DB can be used for planning purposes, app= lying forecast demands to some existing services. .- service inventory: the DB can play the role of service inventory then co= mplementing some other resource inventory in place. .- transport abstraction: this DB keeps the link between the service reques= ted and how this service is implemented from the transport point of view. I attach some text with these ideas for your convenience, in case you agree= with what is stated before. > .- interaction with SDN controllers: the ABNO architecture supports > the SDN concepts. In fact, it is stated in section 2.3.1.11 that the > Provisioning Manager > itself may act as an OpenFlow Controller, and also OpenFlow is > mentioned in the > text as one of the potential protocols for controlling network > resources. (I don't > intend to relate SDN only to OpenFlow here, it is just for > reference). In the insight over provisioning manager control of > networks, in section 2.3.2.6, a number of protocols are listed, and > also some ideas about potential triggering of > actions are provided. What I miss from the information before is the capability of > ABNO for directly interacting with SDN controllers. That is, that the provisioning > manager interacts with an SDN controller (e.g., through a REST API > interface) instead of directly interact with network devices. So I'm a bit confused. Having said that the Provisioning Manager may act as an SDN controller, wha= t does it mean for "ABNO to interact with an SDN controller"? The point, I think of the ABNO architecture is to pull together all of the = components that may operate and manage a network. Thus the SDN controller i= s within the ABNO architecture not external to it. On the other hand, we did not want to tie this architecture to the SDN arch= itecture or "buzz". It is what it is. SDN is a profile/application of ABNO,= or SDN is something on its own. This is neither competition for SDN nor an= attempt to subsume it. [Luis>>] I think that one of the strengths of ABNO is precisely not to be t= ight to SDN only, or in other words, it facilitates to simultaneously work = with different kind of networks, or profiles as you referred to. But becaus= e we are discussing this on the mailing list of the SDN RG let me go a bit = further, just sharing my thoughts. When I mention about a direct interaction of ABNO with an SDN Controller, I= mean that the Provisioning Manager can interact with an SDN controller, as= reflected in the modified figures I attached in my previous mail. But I ag= ree that this can be considered as part of the Provisioning Manager itself,= i.e., the Provisioning Manager could use a conventional SDN Controller (e.= g., Floodlight, Ryu, etc) instead of building the logic itself. My only worry here is that considering the SDN Controller as part of the Pr= ovisioning Manager produce asymmetric scenarios from the control plane poin= t of view. Let me explain. With the SDN Controller logic being part of the = PM, the ABNO would interact with devices without control plane capabilities= . However, at the same time the PM could interact with some other devices, = not SDN-based, that incorporate control plane capabilities (e.g., GMPLS bas= ed control). Maybe this different approach could condition the way the work= flows are developed, avoiding generalization and technology agnostic approa= ch. > Then, considering it as an > option, the usage of REST API interfaces should be included in the > list for program/configuring devices, and the fact of triggering > actions with SDN controllers should be included in the list of > triggered actions through control > plane. To illustrate the concept I have attached slightly modified > versions of Figure 5 and 15, as examples. This way of positioning ABNO > is something we are proposing in the FP7 XIFI project (see for > instance [1]). In this case ABNO acts as > an orchestrator of separated SDN domains, and ABNO is able of > interacting with each of those domains through a REST API with the > local controllers. As an additional interaction, besides of > controlling network elements, the ABNO can obtain topology information > from the SDN controller directly (the topology information obtained from = running LLDP in the SDN/OpenFlow environment). So, I think, consistent with my previous comment, the REST API (such as the= Floodlight API) would sit between the ABN Controller and the Provisioning = Manager. This is also consistent with the Floodlight Controller having the job of de= termining the network path before programming the network elements. In othe= r words, the controller (Provisioning Manager) needs to consult a component= (that may be coded as internal, but which is functionally distinct) that c= omputes paths (PCE). [Luis>>] I see your point. That would reflect the case of the SDN Controlle= r working in active mode. However, for an SDN Controller in passive mode pr= obably not. Nevertheless this would not prevent of using the REST API there= , of course. So I'm adding 2.3.2.12 ABNO Provisioning Requests Under some circumstances the ABNO Controller may make requests direct to the Provisioning Manager. For example, if the Provisioning Manager is acting as an SDN Controller then the ABNO Controller may use one of the APIs defined to allow requests to me made to the SDN Controller (such as the Floodlight REST API [Flood]). Alternatively, since the Provisioning Manager may also receive instructions from a stateful PCE, the use of PCEP extensions might be appropriate in some cases [I-D.crabbe-pce-pce-initiated-lsp]. [Luis>>] ok. What I would expect would be a common interface between the AB= NO Controller and the Provisioning Manager, and then a number of adaptors o= r protocols there as southbound interfaces to interact with different kind = of devices. From the text above I understand that such interface could be f= or instance a REST API (as the one in Floodlight) or PCEP. ... > .- resiliency and scalability. Chapter 4 presents some text about survivability and > resiliency in ABNO. In my understanding there is a mix of resiliency > and scalability > in such text. I would suggest to separate both concepts. For instance, > second paragraph is more related to scalability, in my opinion. When > talking about the > scalability it can be assumed that multiple instances of the different components > can be in place, each of them taking over some workload of the total > workload offered to ABNO. The workload split can be implemented e.g. > by technology. The workflows in the ABNO controller could be the glue > of such split workload to compose a complete connectivity service. > However, when talking about resiliency additional functionality has to > be in place to ensure consistency and to > keep the status of the provisioned resources among the different > instances that > provide reliability. The scalability and resiliency features are > different and have > different needs, even if they are supported in the same way, i.e., > through several instances of the same component. If you share also > this vision I can prepare some text on that, if you wish. That would be interesting. I think I agree that resilience may need additio= nal functionality and state synchronisation in some cases. On the other han= d, in some cases, especially when seamless resiliency is not needed, it is = enough to switch to another instance and repeat the request (consider issu= ing a request to a PCE that fails - you would just re-issue the request to = a new PCE). I don't believe that this document has to describe every possible interacti= on between all components, but I will add a sentence to the penultimate par= agraph of Section 4... In some circumstances state synchronization between instances of components may be needed in order to facilitate seamless resiliency. [Luis>>] When you consider the provisioning of a new service probably state= synchronization it is not an issue. As you mention you can try with anothe= r instance of a given component and just be sure that the running component= record the state. There are however more challenging cases: .- ABNO components resiliency: the modification or deletion of provisioned = services has to be performed with certainty about the resources associated = to any of the services. If this state is not properly kept then the operati= on of modifying or deleting a service could impact some other service. Addi= tionally, if a given component fails during the process of modification or = deletion (or even provision), then some mechanisms should be in place to ei= ther take over the operation in the state found at the moment of the failur= e or to undo whatever action was performed before the failure. .- Network elements resiliency: when one network element fails or should be= rebooted, for instance, the services have to be re-deployed with the same = properties / characteristics as they were running before the failure. As an= example, in an SDN environment the forwarding rules should be re-installed= in the device, so these have to be kept in some place (or should be a way = of regenerating them for re-installation). Maybe this could be addressed in this or in another document. But in my opi= nion it is a relevant topic to provide an operational insight to the ABNO a= rchitecture (talking from an operator perspective). ... > .- section 2.3.1.9. When talking about ALTO Server it seems that its > role in the > ABNO architecture is to offer information to the applications on top. > However, it > can also be used internally by the ABNO components to perform their > corresponding functions e.g. at provisioning time. To that respect, I > wonder if the > ALTO module in ABNO could also act as ALTO client of external ALTO > Servers if available. This for instance could be useful in multi > administrative domains (somehow similar to the case described in 3.1 > but when each AS is part of a different administrative domain). If so > I would suggest to include a sentence pointing out such possibility, > e.g.: "The ALTO component in the ABNO architecture could behave also > as ALTO client to retrieve information from external ALTO Servers > either for providing a complete network view to the Application > Service Coordinator, or for allowing the other modules in ABNO to perform= their corresponding tasks". Right. But (again) we can't possibly show or discuss every interaction betw= een every pair of components or every possible use case. I am slightly dubious, however, about where such an "external ALTO server w= ould reside." Note that this is an architecture, not an implementation guid= e, so I think that the situation you describe is really that one ALTO serve= r may act as a client for another ALTO server to enable them to serve diffe= rent but cooperating networks. [Luis>>] I see reasonable your concern about the difficulty (and manageabil= ity) of documenting every possible use case. My question was certainly abou= t cooperating networks (e.g. cloud or content over the top). ... > .- section 3.1. Despite multiple AS are involved in this use case, it > seems that all > the AS pertain to the same administrative domain. Is that correct? If > so, probably > it would be nice to include such clarification in the text. I don't see what brings you to this conclusion. There are several approaches shown in the section and the choice may depend= on the relationship between ASes. For example, cooperating H-PCEs require = that the PCEs can, erm, cooperate. Yet the referenced 5520 allows "secrecy"= in this mode of operation. Alternatively, Figure 7 shows a different way t= o cut the cake. [Luis>>] What I had in mind here was the following: if the AS's are part of= the same administrative domain, the ABNO framework can control all the dev= ices in the way you describe. However, if the AS's pertain to different adm= inistrative domains, then it is not so clear how one ABNO Controller can (d= irectly) provision resources from other different domains. This has several= implications. Maybe a simplistic scheme could be the interworking of ABNOs= , just to say something. As you mention documenting every possible use case= is not the objective of the draft. ... Section 7, add "Luis Contreras" [Luis>>] Thanks ;-) ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exc= lusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario = indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci= =C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de = la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le roga= mos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a= su destrucci=C3=B3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. 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Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imedi= atamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o --_002_53f529f494944a67962851889400606eAM3PR06MB563eurprd06pro_ Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document; name="service resource DB.docx" Content-Description: service resource DB.docx Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="service resource DB.docx"; size=16521; creation-date="Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:34:04 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:34:06 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQDwIex9jgEAABMGAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIooAAC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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12:44:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF4A1A8A20 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:44:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FoB3xpuQy1jD for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f169.google.com (mail-qc0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5AD31A8A1F for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com 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Aug 2014 15:44:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: David Meyer To: SDN IRTF list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cc0afc218d050128f1b9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/RzEBf0PqUsolXO2uJI8dRTu-uIM Subject: [Sdn] Final SDNRG minutes from IETF 90 posted X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:44:16 -0000 --001a11c2cc0afc218d050128f1b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 See http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-sdnrg Thanks to Damien for taking the minutes. --dmm --001a11c2cc0afc218d050128f1b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
See=C2=A0http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-9= 0-sdnrg

Thanks to Damien for taking the minutes.

--dmm

--001a11c2cc0afc218d050128f1b9-- From nobody Fri Aug 22 07:35:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1211A0488 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1iw7-l9dgW03 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.eict.de (mx2.eict.de [212.91.241.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4611A0303 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mx2.eict.de (Postfix, from userid 481) id D2B551FF47; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.eict.de (mx1 [172.16.6.1]) by mx2.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155FF1FF44 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sbs2008.eict.local (sbs2008.intern.eict.de [192.168.2.11]) by mail.eict.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB39B378395 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298]) by SBS2008.eict.local ([fe80::2051:ef24:c7c9:f298%13]) with mapi; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:29 +0200 From: Kostas Pentikousis To: SDN IRTF list Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:28 +0200 Thread-Topic: ALIEN HAL: OpenFlow for non-OpenFlow network devices Thread-Index: Ac++FlFQKcJ4KrweSZCjhpdplSJ/LQ== Message-ID: <0C7EDCF89AB9E2478B5D010026CFF4AEA10C6AAC10@SBS2008.eict.local> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/a5nY94pMoWgLuxUxD-XlE9np5L8 Subject: [Sdn] ALIEN HAL: OpenFlow for non-OpenFlow network devices X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:35:35 -0000 Dear all, We just had an interesting presentation at HotSDN regarding adding OpenFlow= support to non-OpenFlow devices. As some of you may remember, we discussed= last month at the SDNRG meeting in Toronto how the European FP7 ALIEN proj= ect addresses this problem. AFAIK, we covered all previous related work in our ACM SIGCOMM DCC paper (h= ttp://dx.doi.org/10.1145/2627566.2627577), but it seems that there is furth= er work in this area. I'd be interested in having an open conversation so t= hat research effort fragmentation is avoided and open source code reuse can= be maximized :) If you are working on this topic I would highly recommend = having a look at our DCC paper (which discusses and points to concrete impl= ementation details). More importantly, I would definitely appreciate pointers to other literatur= e and open source code related to this topic. =20 Best regards, Kostas From nobody Sat Aug 23 03:37:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B7E1A0653 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 03:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.002 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rFzg4RI6Y2Rp for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 03:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm35-vm9.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (nm35-vm9.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [212.82.97.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CA71A01EA for ; 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Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:37:26 BST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001, RGVhciBBbGwKRmlyc3Qgb2YgYWxsLCBhcG9sb2dpZXMgZm9yIGNyb3NzIHBvc3RpbmcuwqAKSSBhbSBwbGVhc2VkIHRvIGluZm9ybSB5b3Ugb2YgdGhlIFNwZWNpYWwgSXNzdWUgd2UgYXJlIG9yZ2FuaXppbmcgZm9yIHRoZSBJRUVFIENvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIE1hZ2F6aW5lIOKAkyBDb21tdW5pY2F0aW9ucyDCoFN0YW5kYXJkcyBTdXBwbGVtZW50LCBvbiAiUmVzZWFyY2ggJiBTdGFuZGFyZHM6IEFkdmFuY2VkIENsb3VkICYgVmlydHVhbGl6YXRpb24gVGVjaG5pcXVlcyBmb3IgNUcgTmV0d29ya3MuIgpEZXQBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.201.700 Message-ID: <1408790246.70595.YahooMailNeo@web171506.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:37:26 +0100 From: ksentini adlen To: "sdn@irtf.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1854976548-1887244367-1408790246=:70595" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/148rw_gyVmpnXh90SHaNSsfNT5Y Subject: [Sdn] =?utf-8?q?Feature_Topic_on_=22Advanced_Cloud_=26_Virtualiza?= =?utf-8?q?tion_Techniques_for_5G_Networks=22_at_IEEE_Communications_Magaz?= =?utf-8?q?ine_=E2=80=93_Communications_Standards_Supplement?= X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: ksentini adlen List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:37:33 -0000 --1854976548-1887244367-1408790246=:70595 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All=0AFirst of all, apologies for cross posting.=C2=A0=0AI am pleased = to inform you of the Special Issue we are organizing for the IEEE Communica= tions Magazine =E2=80=93 Communications =C2=A0Standards Supplement, on "Res= earch & Standards: Advanced Cloud & Virtualization Techniques for 5G Networ= ks."=0ADetails on the scope of the special issue and manuscript submission = are provided at the following URL:=0Ahttp://www.comsoc.org/communications-s= tandards-supplement-cfp-feature-topic=0A=0AGuest Editors=0A- Prof. Kan Zhen= g, BUPT, China=0A-=C2=A0Dr. Tarik Taleb, NEC Europe Labs, Germany=0A-=C2=A0= Dr. Adlen Ksentini, University of Rennes 1/ INRIA, France=0A-=C2=A0Dr. Chih= -Lin I, China Mobile, China=0A-=C2=A0Prof. Thomas Magedanz, Fraunhofer Foku= s, Germany=0A-=C2=A0Prof. Mehmet Ulema, Manhattan College, USA=0A=C2=A0=0A= =0AImportant Dates=0A-=C2=A0Manuscript Submission Due: 30 Nov. 2014=0A-=C2= =A0Acceptance Notification: 1 Mar. 2015=0A-=C2=A0Camera Ready Manuscript Du= e: 15 April 2015=0A-=C2=A0Publication Date: June 2015=0A=C2=A0=0A=0APlease = kindly consider circulating this CFP among your friends and colleagues.=0A= =C2=A0=0A=0ALooking forward your submissions.=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AKind regards, --1854976548-1887244367-1408790246=:70595 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
First of all, apologies for cross posting.&n= bsp;
I am pleased to inform you of the= Special Issue we are organizing for the IEEE Communications Magazine =E2= =80=93 Communications  Standards Supplement, on "Research & Standa= rds: Advanced Cloud & Virtualization Techniques for 5G Networks."
<= span lang=3D"FR" class=3D"" style=3D"">Details on the scope of the special = issue and manuscript submission are provided at the following URL:
http://www.comsoc.org= /communications-standards-supplement-cfp-feature-topic

Guest Editors
- Prof. Kan Zheng, BUPT, China
- Dr. Tarik Tale= b, NEC Europe Labs, Germany
- Dr. Adlen Ksentini, University of Rennes 1/= INRIA, France
- Dr. Chih-Lin I, = China Mobile, China
- Prof. Thomas Magedanz, Fraunhofer Fokus, Germany
-&nbs= p;Prof. Mehmet Ulema, Manhattan College, USA
 
Important Dates
- Manuscri= pt Submission Due: 30 Nov. 2014
- Acceptance Notification: 1 Mar. 2015
-&nbs= p;Camera Ready Manuscript Due: 15 April 2015
- Publication Date: June 2015
=  
Please kindly consider circulating this CFP among your friends and collea= gues.
 
Looking forward your su= bmissions.
 
Kind regards,
--1854976548-1887244367-1408790246=:70595-- From nobody Sun Aug 24 10:11:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEF41A883F for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjceLu6PEnAA for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05AD61A8835 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s7OHBBXO015678; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:11:11 +0100 Received: from 950129200 ([69.38.252.84]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s7OHB92H015662 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:11:10 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO'" References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <057601cfb8bf$123bffa0$36b3fee0$@olddog.co.uk> <53f529f494944a67962851889400606e@AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <53f529f494944a67962851889400606e@AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:11:08 +0100 Message-ID: <033801cfbfbe$67078030$35168090$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGXTe9K7jPxpgE5IvDuDAc/fe8iRwI98pZrAkt9n2gBzEKwsZwd/HSQ Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1018-20904.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--38.099-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--38.099-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: yebcs53SkkBfsB4HYR80ZovtmwtVGLEkfjJOgArMOCZtw+n+iKWyyDHh J+2hCvfEcqx4QKYFVNl7OVwtlDD1nsmXNqMzJyxABEfU2vugRF2J7IEVMTX5x/YoIVNmrCb9E1R IQNa0GWdUhinVplb5OLhX/Pt8TwKQRM9hS0neXI8GD8+xDsijYV+PJNkR/r/X5DJ1FS+XdBPoWE ZS0kRNvyHCwXF3ObcxzsmvAEciGHQJlMMBDNEW0CmjEOrcO6AygYy8y+HaPlYS+jFO7d+PW+lhg fFGvhkMe2C8bL/Ydp0p13BQ4o8JYX1qJSae49I1ma6DzXaohvMdQSyPGb6mCKj5v7I4/SgYonld Aj+2xeV74zVzcj+fPz/41+Ybb8PEBxIED8tgOKG4jAucHcCqne04FhLwdDP8lb8qVXrNjEU6LhW UBE3i+HpM1magZsEvTIMihVsMSUnNkOxTi82/cp21GZGE81yGukAkwrs34lUF+gC92p0nl2SxWn uVAZFLHYk2imLOmVGqoKepYmZP9BSnUnzeFHx4wgzEIaHq7pcLitYSIrUiB4KwF4K/wIz9aXKzU 8OFYujieJSxocLDs5cyt5zIhxG/75pPIX9Yr3sU+jDPzF999BidAQc/IR4I05ehwAGYD23P5CAU vjYQxHlvmAHfNM/OW46EYm5LvvAq2g1GUWpWR8+a+cvZqLkgj2qRUtLsMB1F5n8xecmpRLSeP3F 8zgSU5XNyK20xuUWwRRF6v5JQYFwV2XaIOhlmEroQVzSW9XQOp2w/jxkSlGB2nBvWrZxG5NbLAN o5fBRaeEocvOzovQUCjXMtAZSWpkkXpMSpG5yeAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8+gD2vYtOFhgqtq5d3 cxkNQP90fJP9eHt Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/S-_K3NyZKGjbn3oJ6yKqfjolG9A Cc: "'King, Daniel'" , sdn@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:11:20 -0000 Hi Luis, Continuing this conversation: > > + same comment applies to the reoptimization case in 3.5.2 > > This service-awareness module or component could come in the form of > > an additional DB to the ABNO architecture feed with the information > > mentioned before, plus some logic capable of handling and retrieving > > that (for instance part of the information can be retrieved from the > > stateful PCE). If you agree with this comment, I can provide some > > contribution on this if you want. >=20 > I think you are saying that, in order to achieve its function, the = ABNO controller > will need a database that maps services to underlying network = resources. I agree > that the ABNO controller would need to keep this state information, = and that the > information would need to be "persistent". >=20 > I am wondering whether this database is internal or external to the = ABNO > Controller. [snip] =20 > [Luis>>] I think that the most appropriate case would be to consider = it as a DB > external to the ABNO Controller. I see a number of actions = (implemented by > ABNO components or external modules) using this DB: > .- recovery: the DB is queried to retrieve state of the service to be = recovered > .- OAM: alarm correlation, reporting to the corresponding application, = etc > .- resource usage: CDR like information > .- provisioning / deletion / modification of resources as per = application requests. > .- network planning: the info the DB can be used for planning = purposes, applying > forecast demands to some existing services. > .- service inventory: the DB can play the role of service inventory = then > complementing some other resource inventory in place. > .- transport abstraction: this DB keeps the link between the service = requested > and how this service is implemented from the transport point of view. > I attach some text with these ideas for your convenience, in case you = agree with > what is stated before. Thanks for these thoughts and for the attached text. Actually, to me = this makes the service DB sound like an ABNO component. That is, it = stores state about the requested services and the relation between those = services and the underlying network resources. That state is used by = ABNO components during the normal course of events and also in recovery = situations. The state could be examined by external parties and can be = verified (synchronised) on recovery. If it is OK with you I will work up the text and ideas you've sent into = a new sub-section describing the "Services DB". > > .- interaction with SDN controllers: the ABNO architecture supports > > the SDN concepts. In fact, it is stated in section 2.3.1.11 that the > > Provisioning Manager itself may act as an OpenFlow Controller,=20 > > and also OpenFlow is mentioned in the text as one of the potential > > protocols for controlling network resources. (I don't > > intend to relate SDN only to OpenFlow here, it is just for > > reference). In the insight over provisioning manager control of > > networks, in section 2.3.2.6, a number of protocols are listed, and > > also some ideas about potential triggering of actions are provided. > > What I miss from the information before is the capability of > > ABNO for directly interacting with SDN controllers. That is, that = the > > provisioning manager interacts with an SDN controller (e.g.,=20 > > through a REST API interface) instead of directly interact with > > network devices. >=20 > So I'm a bit confused. > Having said that the Provisioning Manager may act as an SDN = controller, what > does it mean for "ABNO to interact with an SDN controller"? > The point, I think of the ABNO architecture is to pull together all of = the > components that may operate and manage a network. Thus the SDN = controller is > within the ABNO architecture not external to it. >=20 > On the other hand, we did not want to tie this architecture to the SDN > architecture or "buzz". It is what it is. SDN is a profile/application = of ABNO, or > SDN is something on its own. This is neither competition for SDN nor = an > attempt to subsume it. >=20 > [Luis>>] I think that one of the strengths of ABNO is precisely not to = be tight to > SDN only, or in other words, it facilitates to simultaneously work = with different > kind of networks, or profiles as you referred to. But because we are = discussing > this on the mailing list of the SDN RG let me go a bit further, just = sharing my > thoughts. > When I mention about a direct interaction of ABNO with an SDN = Controller, I > mean that the Provisioning Manager can interact with an SDN = controller, as > reflected in the modified figures I attached in my previous mail. But = I agree that > this can be considered as part of the Provisioning Manager itself, = i.e., the > Provisioning Manager could use a conventional SDN Controller (e.g., = Floodlight, > Ryu, etc) instead of building the logic itself. > My only worry here is that considering the SDN Controller as part of = the > Provisioning Manager produce asymmetric scenarios from the control = plane point > of view. Let me explain. With the SDN Controller logic being part of = the PM, the > ABNO would interact with devices without control plane capabilities. = However, at > the same time the PM could interact with some other devices, not = SDN-based, > that incorporate control plane capabilities (e.g., GMPLS based = control). Maybe > this different approach could condition the way the workflows are = developed, > avoiding generalization and technology agnostic approach. =20 So, for the discussion, let's continue this... Yes, there is an imbalance in the operations that the PM can perform. = This is a bit like the old fashioned NMS that could program individual = nodes or could send instructions to the control plane. Or, if we look at = the combination of an NMS, the control plane, and the EMSes, then the = ABNO architecture and the SDN architecture are all part of the same = world view and can be freely mixed up. Just for clarity, I am not saying that the SDN Controller must be part = of the Provisioning Manager in ABNO. What I am saying is that this is an = architecture not an implementation blueprint. That means that you = realise the architecture using the components you have lying around, and = build new ones if you need them. So, you can have multiple = implementation components that realise the Provisioning Manager = function. So, for a combined system you might have (and considering = "internal" to mean "within the software box labelled ABNO"): - An internal PM that talks to a control plane (like GMPLS) - An internal PM that talks to external nodes as if an SDN Controller - The PCE talking direct to the control plane - The ABNO Controller talks to an external SDN Controller (that is, of = course, a PM) > > Then, considering it as an > > option, the usage of REST API interfaces should be included in the > > list for program/configuring devices, and the fact of triggering > > actions with SDN controllers should be included in the list of > > triggered actions through control plane. To illustrate the concept > > I have attached slightly modified versions of Figure 5 and 15, as > > examples. This way of positioning ABNO is something we are > > proposing in the FP7 XIFI project (see for instance [1]). In this > > case ABNO acts as an orchestrator of separated SDN domains, > > and ABNO is able of interacting with each of those domains > > through a REST API with the local controllers. As an additional > > interaction, besides of controlling network elements, the ABNO > > can obtain topology information from the SDN controller directly > > (the topology information obtained from running LLDP in the > > SDN/OpenFlow environment). >=20 > So, I think, consistent with my previous comment, the REST API (such = as the > Floodlight API) would sit between the ABN Controller and the = Provisioning > Manager. >=20 > This is also consistent with the Floodlight Controller having the job = of determining > the network path before programming the network elements. In other = words, > the controller (Provisioning Manager) needs to consult a component = (that may > be coded as internal, but which is functionally distinct) that = computes paths > (PCE). >=20 > [Luis>>] I see your point. That would reflect the case of the SDN = Controller > working in active mode. However, for an SDN Controller in passive mode > probably not. Nevertheless this would not prevent of using the REST = API there, > of course. Sure. The point is to include all of the functional options. > So I'm adding >=20 > 2.3.2.12 ABNO Provisioning Requests >=20 > Under some circumstances the ABNO Controller may make requests = direct > to the Provisioning Manager. For example, if the Provisioning > Manager is acting as an SDN Controller then the ABNO Controller may > use one of the APIs defined to allow requests to me made to the SDN > Controller (such as the Floodlight REST API [Flood]). = Alternatively, > since the Provisioning Manager may also receive instructions from a > stateful PCE, the use of PCEP extensions might be appropriate in > some cases [I-D.crabbe-pce-pce-initiated-lsp]. >=20 > [Luis>>] ok. What I would expect would be a common interface between = the > ABNO Controller and the Provisioning Manager, and then a number of = adaptors > or protocols there as southbound interfaces to interact with different = kind of > devices. From the text above I understand that such interface could be = for > instance a REST API (as the one in Floodlight) or PCEP. Yup. That's what the text tries to say. > > .- resiliency and scalability. Chapter 4 presents some text about > > survivability and resiliency in ABNO. In my understanding there > > is a mix of resiliency and scalability in such text. I would suggest > > to separate both concepts. For instance, second paragraph is > > more related to scalability, in my opinion. When talking about > > the scalability it can be assumed that multiple instances of the > > different components can be in place, each of them taking over > > some workload of the total workload offered to ABNO. The > > workload split can be implemented e.g. by technology. The=20 > > workflows in the ABNO controller could be the glue of such > > split workload to compose a complete connectivity service. > > However, when talking about resiliency additional functionality > > has to be in place to ensure consistency and to keep the status > > of the provisioned resources among the different instances > > that provide reliability. The scalability and resiliency features = are > > different and have different needs, even if they are supported > > in the same way, i.e., through several instances of the same > > component. If you share also this vision I can prepare some > > text on that, if you wish. >=20 > That would be interesting. I think I agree that resilience may need = additional > functionality and state synchronisation in some cases. On the other = hand, in > some cases, especially when seamless resiliency is not needed, it is = enough to > switch to another instance and repeat the request (consider issuing a = request to > a PCE that fails - you would just re-issue the request to a new PCE). >=20 > I don't believe that this document has to describe every possible = interaction > between all components, but I will add a sentence to the penultimate = paragraph > of Section 4... >=20 > In some circumstances state synchronization between > instances of components may be needed in order to facilitate = seamless > resiliency. >=20 > [Luis>>] When you consider the provisioning of a new service probably = state > synchronization it is not an issue. As you mention you can try with = another > instance of a given component and just be sure that the running = component > record the state. There are however more challenging cases: > .- ABNO components resiliency: the modification or deletion of = provisioned > services has to be performed with certainty about the resources = associated to > any of the services. If this state is not properly kept then the = operation of > modifying or deleting a service could impact some other service. = Additionally, if a > given component fails during the process of modification or deletion = (or even > provision), then some mechanisms should be in place to either take = over the > operation in the state found at the moment of the failure or to undo = whatever > action was performed before the failure. I am not disagreeing with you on this. I think this is exactly what my = new text captures.=20 But I don't believe this is the subject of a new architectural = component.=20 To a great extent this is an implementation issue. That is, how an ABNO = implementation decides to recover/synchronise state between components = and instances of components could be achieved in a wide variety of ways. = One approach allows "horizontal" interfaces between instances of the = same component. Another approach has a centralized owner of state. A = further approach enhances interfaces between different component to = allow them to resynchronise. This topic has been the subject of research for as long as I can recall = (and I'm old :-) whether in communications software or in databases. I = think it would be a perfect topic for a separate document and possibly = some healthy research papers in the SDNRG. But I am reluctant to further = open the topic in the initial ABNO architecture for fear it will spiral = down into the tar pit. > .- Network elements resiliency: when one network element fails or = should be > rebooted, for instance, the services have to be re-deployed with the = same > properties / characteristics as they were running before the failure. = As an > example, in an SDN environment the forwarding rules should be = re-installed in > the device, so these have to be kept in some place (or should be a way = of > regenerating them for re-installation). This is certainly true in a transport network, but in that case the NE = has probably retained a lot of state. But in all cases, when an NE is restarted in a way that affects = forwarding, end-to-end traffic will have been restored on other paths, = and when the node recovers the network may have moved on considerably. Perhaps "SDN resiliency" would also be a good subject for research and = documentation in the SDNRG. > Maybe this could be addressed in this or in another document. But in = my opinion > it is a relevant topic to provide an operational insight to the ABNO = architecture > (talking from an operator perspective). Operational insights would be very valuable. Let's try for a set of documents rather than a single book :-) Thanks, Adrian From nobody Mon Aug 25 07:01:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E240F1A893C for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncYhrG1KT3Mw for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtptc.telefonica.com (smtptc.telefonica.com [195.76.34.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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with mapi id 15.00.1015.018; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:35:30 +0000 From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Thread-Topic: Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: Ac+oNgYu6zahOfNRTeCR5eriC3FgfAO3L9LQAGsSuoAAH3vXEAGgWV8AACqzvcA= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:35:30 +0000 Message-ID: <8e573151000f4206b82141efd2e1d973@AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <1cf055dc943f4a1398274b351344a655@DB4PR06MB576.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <057601cfb8bf$123bffa0$36b3fee0$@olddog.co.uk> <53f529f494944a67962851889400606e@AM3PR06MB563.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <033801cfbfbe$67078030$35168090$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <033801cfbfbe$67078030$35168090$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [195.235.92.25] x-microsoft-antispam: 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X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 07:01:11 -0700 Cc: "'King, Daniel'" , "sdn@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:35:40 -0000 SGkgQWRyaWFuLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgcmVwbHkuIEkgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSBhbnkgYWRk aXRpb25hbCBjb21tZW50cy4gUGxlYXNlIGZlZWwgZnJlZSB0byBlZGl0IHRoZSB0ZXh0IEkgZm9y d2FyZGVkIGluIHRoZSB3YXkgeW91IGNvbnNpZGVyIG1vcmUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUuDQoNCkJlc3Qg cmVnYXJkcw0KDQpMdWlzDQoNCi0tLS0tTWVuc2FqZSBvcmlnaW5hbC0tLS0tDQpEZTogQWRyaWFu IEZhcnJlbCBbbWFpbHRvOmFkcmlhbkBvbGRkb2cuY28udWtdDQpFbnZpYWRvIGVsOiBkb21pbmdv LCAyNCBkZSBhZ29zdG8gZGUgMjAxNCAxOToxMQ0KUGFyYTogTFVJUyBNSUdVRUwgQ09OVFJFUkFT IE1VUklMTE8NCkNDOiAnS2luZywgRGFuaWVsJzsgc2RuQGlydGYub3JnDQpBc3VudG86IFJFOiBD 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IHBvciBlcnJvLCByb2dhbW9zLWxoZSBxdWUgbm9zIG8gY29tdW5pcXVlIGltZWRpYXRhbWVudGUg cG9yIGVzdGEgbWVzbWEgdmlhIGUgcHJvY2VkYSBhIHN1YSBkZXN0cnVpw6fDo28NCg== From nobody Sun Aug 31 00:38:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sdn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50071A8777; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tP2A__mr41qD; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 00:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out23-ams.mf.surf.net (out23-ams.mf.surf.net [145.0.1.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 749A61A8778; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 00:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXEDGE01.ad.utwente.nl (exedge01.ad.utwente.nl [130.89.5.48]) by outgoing1-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id s7V7bnKX013575; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:37:50 +0200 Received: from EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.4.146) by EXEDGE01.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.5.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:37:56 +0200 Received: from EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.4.146) by EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl (130.89.4.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.913.22; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:37:49 +0200 Received: from EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl ([130.89.4.146]) by EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl ([130.89.4.146]) with mapi id 15.00.0913.011; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:37:49 +0200 From: To: , Thread-Topic: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture Thread-Index: Ac+oNgYu6zahOfNRTeCR5eriC3FgfAFItoAQBeUvZQ4AACpkzg== Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:37:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3235AFEA@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local>, , <48b4c74efbc043fda018f6012f0027df@EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl> In-Reply-To: <48b4c74efbc043fda018f6012f0027df@EXMBX31.ad.utwente.nl> Accept-Language: nl-NL, nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: nl-NL X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [86.91.134.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: utwente-out:default, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=130.89.5.48; country=NL; region=Provincie Overijssel; city=Enschede; latitude=52.2195; longitude=6.8912; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2195,6.8912&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: utwente-out:default (inherits from utwente:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0uMJjBO3x - b2ae530f016d - 20140831 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sdn/4eX3zRyqKttnUpwPnwX_TiQAwCQ Cc: sdn@irtf.org, rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture X-BeenThere: sdn@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List to Discuss SDN Research Group in the IRTF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:37:56 -0000 =0A= Hi Dan, Hi Adrian,=0A= =0A= Sorry for the delay on sending my comments on the draft-farrkingel-pce-abno= -architecture-10=0A= I have seen that you have updated the draft and that you have now published= version 11.=0A= =0A= Please note that IMHO, the below comments apply also to version 11 of this = draft:=0A= =0A= First of all I would like to mention that the draft is useful for the IETF = and that its IETF publication process can start soon.=0A= =0A= =0A= Comment_1: Please emphasize how the ABNO architecture can be applied in the= context of SFC (Service Function Chaining). In other words what is the rel= ation between the IETF SFC WG documents and this document.=0A= =0A= Comment_2: The draft is not describing in detail which existing northbound = interface solutions can be used in combination with the ABNO architecture. = Please emphasize what are the existing IETF activities that can be used/app= lied for the support of the northbound interface.=0A= =0A= Best regards,=0A= Georgios=0A= ________________________________________=0A= Van: sdn namens karagian@cs.utwente.nl =0A= Verzonden: vrijdag 1 augustus 2014 09:19=0A= Aan: d.king@lancaster.ac.uk; sdn@irtf.org=0A= CC: adrian@olddog.co.uk=0A= Onderwerp: Re: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architect= ure=0A= =0A= Hi Dan,=0A= =0A= Please note that I have read the draft and I am willing to send comments to= the RTGWG list.=0A= Please note, however, that this will happen after the 15th of August, since= I am now on holidays.=0A= =0A= Best regards,=0A= Georgios=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Van: sdn [sdn-bounces@irtf.org] namens King, Daniel [d.king@lancaster.ac.uk= ]=0A= Verzonden: vrijdag 25 juli 2014 20:27=0A= Aan: 'sdn@irtf.org'=0A= CC: adrian@olddog.co.uk=0A= Onderwerp: [Sdn] Call for review of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture= =0A= =0A= Hi SDN RG'rs,=0A= =0A= The authors of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture are in the process of= requesting AD-sponsored publication of draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architect= ure:=0A= =0A= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-pce-abno-architecture=0A= =0A= This I-D is a bit of an architecture and a bit an applicability statement. = It has been presented in SDNRG a couple of times.=0A= =0A= The last call will obviously pop out sometime, but it would be nice to have= review comments before then. Perhaps you could send your comments to the a= uthors or to the RTGWG list rather than clogging this list with discussion = of an IETF draft.=0A= =0A= Thanks,=0A= Dan=0A= _______________________________________________=0A= sdn mailing list=0A= sdn@irtf.org=0A= https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/sdn=0A=