From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 09:13:22 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05817 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52DCuI12429 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:12:56 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52DCtB12426 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:12:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05788 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mp5e-0002p1-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:11:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mp5e-0002oy-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:11:06 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52DCbB12406; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:12:37 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52BSnB03806 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 07:28:49 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA01641; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 07:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200306021128.HAA01641@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: seamoby@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:28:47 -0400 Subject: [Seamoby] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting Working Group of the IETF. Title : Context Transfer Protocol Author(s) : J. Loughney et al. Filename : draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2003-5-30 This document presents a context transfer protocol that enables authorized context transfers. Context transfers allows better support for node based mobility so that the applications running on mobile nodes can operate with minimal disruption. Key objectives are to reducing latency, packet losses and avoid re-initiation of signaling to and from the mobile node. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-5-30152036.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-5-30152036.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 11:40:46 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12385 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52FeJA25996 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:40:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52FeJB25993 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:40:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12370 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MrOJ-000472-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:38:31 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MrOI-00046z-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:38:30 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52FdqB25947; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:39:52 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52FccB25897 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:38:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12324 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MrMg-00046c-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:36:50 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MrMe-00046Y-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:36:49 -0400 Message-ID: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:37:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, The CT protocol draft is now available in the Internet drafts registry at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Working Group Last Call starts today and runs until June 16. Please read the draft and post comments and issues to the mailing list. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 13:35:14 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16063 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52HYo003000 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:34:50 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52HYoB02997 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:34:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16052 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MtB6-0004uU-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:33:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MtB5-0004uQ-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:32:59 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52HYYB02983; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:34:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52HXFB02906 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:33:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16004 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mt9Z-0004u1-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:31:25 -0400 Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr ([192.44.77.17]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mt9X-0004tG-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:31:24 -0400 Received: from courrier.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (f1-clust.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.16]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6/2003.04.01) with ESMTP id h52HWYa25318 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:32:34 +0200 Received: from enst-bretagne.fr (pc-lucian [193.52.74.237]) by courrier.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52HWZY28659 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:32:35 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 19:32:35 +0200 From: Lucian Suciu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; fr-FR; m18) Gecko/20001106 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of pAR-internal-generated trigger? Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR message (sent only to nAR)? Thanks, Lucian > The CT protocol draft is now available in the Internet drafts registry > at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > Working Group Last Call starts today and runs until June 16. Please > read the draft and post comments and issues to the mailing list. _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 14:02:06 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17240 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52I1ew05700 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:01:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52I1eB05697 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:01:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17230 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mtb3-00059t-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:59:50 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Mtb3-00059q-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:59:49 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52I1IB05683; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:01:18 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52I0WB05624 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:00:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17179 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MtZx-00059M-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:58:41 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MtZw-00059J-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:58:41 -0400 Message-ID: <031201c32930$9e99e280$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: "Lucian Suciu" , References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:58:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do you mean by "inter-domain"? As of now, the proposal is only meant to address transfer between two routers that are inside the same ISP/enterprise network operator controlled network, and not across two. It could, however, be used between two routing domains within the same enterprise. If this isn't clear from the draft, then perhaps we need to log an issue to add clarifying text. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lucian Suciu" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > Hi, > > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > pAR-internal-generated trigger? > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR > message (sent only to nAR)? > > > Thanks, > Lucian > > > The CT protocol draft is now available in the Internet drafts registry > > at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > Working Group Last Call starts today and runs until June 16. Please > > read the draft and post comments and issues to the mailing list. > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 15:21:09 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20725 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52JKfM12678 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:20:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52JKfB12675 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:20:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20682 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MupZ-0005ei-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:18:53 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MupZ-0005ef-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:18:53 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52JKQB12635; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:20:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52JJjB12559 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:19:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20650 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Muof-0005e3-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:17:57 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Muoe-0005dl-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:17:56 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id MAA21043; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h52JJ6P08204; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:19:06 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306021919> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdadh1ew; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:19:04 PDT Message-ID: <3EDBA328.DDA18B11@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:19:04 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lucian Suciu CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lucian, Lucian Suciu wrote: > Hi, > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : > we do not make explicit distinction between intra-domain and inter-domain cases. If the routers have required security association, they should be able to do CT. > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > pAR-internal-generated trigger? yes, that's the default. > > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR > message (sent only to nAR)? No. The CT-Request message will carry a token supplied by the MN. This token is inserted from the CTAR message and verified by pAR. Now, the nAR _could_ separately request contexts not specified by the MN. This is, however, not specified in the draft. Regards, -Rajeev > > > Thanks, > Lucian > > > The CT protocol draft is now available in the Internet drafts registry > > at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > Working Group Last Call starts today and runs until June 16. Please > > read the draft and post comments and issues to the mailing list. > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 17:03:11 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24008 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52L2j521832 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:02:45 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52L2jB21827 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:02:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23991 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwQK-0006QS-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:00:56 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwQJ-0006QP-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:00:55 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52L2VB21816; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:02:31 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52L1VB21682 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:01:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23968 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:01:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucian.Suciu@enst-bretagne.fr Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwP7-0006Pa-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:59:41 -0400 Received: from laposte.enst-bretagne.fr ([192.108.115.3]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwOr-0006Nt-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:59:25 -0400 Received: from digemer.enst-bretagne.fr (digemer.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.75.206]) by laposte.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6/2003.04.01) with ESMTP id h52Kxhn20795; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:59:43 +0200 Received: (from www@localhost) by digemer.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52KwYn27999; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:58:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 192.44.77.81 ( [192.44.77.81]) as user lsuciu@courrier.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr by diogel.enst-bretagne.fr with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:58:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1054587514.3edbba7a762e8@diogel.enst-bretagne.fr> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:58:34 +0200 To: James Kempf , seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> <031201c32930$9e99e280$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> In-Reply-To: <031201c32930$9e99e280$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) /ENSTB X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, I have noticed in the last paragraph in Appendix D. that the draft is restricted to intra-domain. However, the last but one sentence in Chapter 2. says: "..., but this document does not restrict the context transfer signaling to happen only within a single domain." That is why I was a little bit confused. Thanks, Lucian Quoting James Kempf : > What do you mean by "inter-domain"? > > As of now, the proposal is only meant to address transfer between two > routers that are inside the same ISP/enterprise network operator > controlled network, and not across two. It could, however, be used > between two routing domains within the same enterprise. > > If this isn't clear from the draft, then perhaps we need to log an > issue to add clarifying text. > > jak > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lucian Suciu" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : > > > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > > pAR-internal-generated trigger? > > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR > > message (sent only to nAR)? > > > > > > Thanks, > > Lucian _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 17:10:44 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24133 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52LAJA23150 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:10:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52LAJB23147 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:10:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24124 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwXd-0006TE-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:08:29 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwXc-0006TB-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:08:28 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52LA6B23129; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:10:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52L9kB23088 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:09:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24118 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwX6-0006Ss-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:07:56 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwX6-0006Sp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:07:56 -0400 Message-ID: <011101c3294b$10b68930$cc6ffea9@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: , "John Loughney" Cc: "Lucian Suciu" References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> <031201c32930$9e99e280$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <1054587514.3edbba7a762e8@diogel.enst-bretagne.fr> Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:08:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, We have issue #1. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "James Kempf" ; Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > Yes, I have noticed in the last paragraph in Appendix D. > that the draft is restricted to intra-domain. > > However, the last but one sentence in Chapter 2. says: > "..., but this document does not restrict the context > transfer signaling to happen only within a single domain." > > That is why I was a little bit confused. > > Thanks, > Lucian > > > > Quoting James Kempf : > > > What do you mean by "inter-domain"? > > > > As of now, the proposal is only meant to address transfer between two > > routers that are inside the same ISP/enterprise network operator > > controlled network, and not across two. It could, however, be used > > between two routing domains within the same enterprise. > > > > If this isn't clear from the draft, then perhaps we need to log an > > issue to add clarifying text. > > > > jak > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lucian Suciu" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : > > > > > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > > > pAR-internal-generated trigger? > > > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR > > > message (sent only to nAR)? > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Lucian > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 2 17:20:48 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24574 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52LKMd23991 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:20:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52LKMB23988 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:20:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24544 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwhM-0006a6-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:18:32 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwhL-0006a3-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:18:31 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52LKBB23946; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:20:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h52LJJB23868 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:19:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24508 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:19:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucian.Suciu@enst-bretagne.fr Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwgL-0006ZD-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:17:29 -0400 Received: from laposte.enst-bretagne.fr ([192.108.115.3]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19MwgK-0006Yr-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:17:28 -0400 Received: from digemer.enst-bretagne.fr (digemer.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.75.206]) by laposte.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6/2003.04.01) with ESMTP id h52LIgn22688; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:18:42 +0200 Received: (from www@localhost) by digemer.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h52LHXD04809; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:17:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 192.44.77.81 ( [192.44.77.81]) as user lsuciu@courrier.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr by diogel.enst-bretagne.fr with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:17:33 +0200 Message-ID: <1054588653.3edbbeedb46e7@diogel.enst-bretagne.fr> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:17:33 +0200 To: Rajeev Koodli , seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <01d101c3291c$d1388070$a66015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> <3EDB8A33.1030107@enst-bretagne.fr> <3EDBA328.DDA18B11@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3EDBA328.DDA18B11@iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) /ENSTB X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rajeev, Please see inline comments. Quoting Rajeev Koodli : > > Hello Lucian, > > Lucian Suciu wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases : > > > > we do not make explicit distinction between intra-domain and > inter-domain cases. If the routers have required security > association, they should be able to do CT. > OK. > > > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > > pAR-internal-generated trigger? > > yes, that's the default. > The draft clearly indicates the default treatment when the list with contexts is missing from the CTAR; yet, it says nothing in the case of a pAR internally generated trigger... > > > > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in CTAR > > message (sent only to nAR)? > > No. The CT-Request message will carry a token supplied by the MN. This > token is inserted from the CTAR message and verified by pAR. > Now, the nAR _could_ separately request contexts not specified by the > MN. This is, however, not specified in the draft. > OK. > Regards, > > -Rajeev Many thanks, Lucian _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 3 09:29:29 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03859 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h53DT3U13819 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:29:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53DT3B13816 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:29:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03842 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NBol-0005yC-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:27:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NBok-0005y9-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:27:10 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53DSdB13781; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:28:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53DR7B13674 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:27:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03791 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:27:02 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NBmt-0005x6-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:25:15 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NBms-0005x3-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:25:14 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h53DR1W23350 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:27:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:27:00 +0300 Received: from esebe010.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.49]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:26:59 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe010.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:26:58 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:26:58 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Thread-Index: AcMpS0vG27bkIEYkREmGBgNcENvkfAAiHryg To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2003 13:26:58.0594 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF1A2020:01C329D3] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h53DR7B13675 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I will file this as an issue. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 03 June, 2003 00:08 > To: seamoby@ietf.org; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > Cc: Lucian Suciu > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > John, > > We have issue #1. > > jak > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "James Kempf" ; > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > Yes, I have noticed in the last paragraph in Appendix D. > > that the draft is restricted to intra-domain. > > > > However, the last but one sentence in Chapter 2. says: > > "..., but this document does not restrict the context > > transfer signaling to happen only within a single domain." > > > > That is why I was a little bit confused. > > > > Thanks, > > Lucian > > > > > > > > Quoting James Kempf : > > > > > What do you mean by "inter-domain"? > > > > > > As of now, the proposal is only meant to address transfer between > two > > > routers that are inside the same ISP/enterprise network operator > > > controlled network, and not across two. It could, however, be used > > > between two routing domains within the same enterprise. > > > > > > If this isn't clear from the draft, then perhaps we need to log an > > > issue to add clarifying text. > > > > > > jak > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Lucian Suciu" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:32 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Last Call on draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have two questions (surely stupid ones) for inter-domain cases > : > > > > > > > > Does the pAR transfer all the contexts in the case of > > > > pAR-internal-generated trigger? > > > > Can the nAR request more contexts from pAR than MN indicated in > CTAR > > > > message (sent only to nAR)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Lucian > > > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 3 13:36:04 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15812 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h53HZeh05374 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:35:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53HZdB05371 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:35:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15799 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NFfP-0000uK-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:33:47 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NFfP-0000uG-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:33:47 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53HYvB05309; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:34:57 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53HX7B05193 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:33:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15727 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NFcx-0000t0-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:31:15 -0400 Received: from phoebe.eim.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.74.4] ident=exim) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NFcw-0000sx-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:31:14 -0400 Received: from ccsrmclt03.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.86.163] helo=eim.surrey.ac.uk ident=ees2mg) by phoebe.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #4) id 19NFeT-0005xm-00; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:32:49 +0100 Message-ID: <3EDCDBC0.5E7E8C5B@eim.surrey.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:32:48 +0100 From: Michael Georgiades Organization: University of Surrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-17.7.x i686) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: seamoby CC: Christos Politis Subject: Re: [Seamoby] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <200306021128.HAA01641@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------02269EC7A61E371BE959983F" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-101.9 required=5.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HTML_20_30,REFERENCES, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Scanner: exiscan *19NFeT-0005xm-00*xWis/msLDg6* (SECM, UniS) Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------02269EC7A61E371BE959983F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2F39095DC5E984B001E97364" --------------2F39095DC5E984B001E97364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have attached a review of the ctp-02 draft. I have made some comments and questions marked with "M.Georgiades" and made some minor corrections (Please ignore if incorrect). Best regards, Mike Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Context Transfer Protocol > Author(s) : J. Loughney et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2003-5-30 > > -- Michael Georgiades Research Fellow Centre for Communication Systems Research University of Surrey Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7XH Tel: +44 (0) 1483 683605 Fax: +44 (0) 1483 686011 www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/ccsr --------------2F39095DC5E984B001E97364 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,

I have attached a review of the ctp-02 draft.
I have made some comments and questions marked with "M.Georgiades" and made some minor corrections (Please ignore if incorrect).

Best regards,

Mike
 

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Context Transfer Protocol
        Author(s)       : J. Loughney et al.
        Filename        : draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt
        Pages           : 21
        Date            : 2003-5-30
 
 

-- 
Michael Georgiades
Research Fellow
Centre for Communication Systems Research
University of Surrey
Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7XH

Tel: +44 (0) 1483 683605
Fax: +44 (0) 1483 686011
www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/ccsr
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by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h55B2w323499 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:02:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h55B2wB23496 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:02:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14579 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NsUP-0004t5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:01:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NsUO-0004t1-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:01:00 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h55B2eB23482; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:02:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h55B16B23451 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:01:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14553 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NsSb-0004sf-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 06:59:09 -0400 Received: from herculanum.int-evry.fr ([157.159.11.15]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NsSa-0004sK-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 06:59:08 -0400 Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr (spartebis.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.20]) by herculanum.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF50034087 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:00:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpes.int-evry.fr (alpes.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.19]) by spartebis.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id ADF4E3F4A6 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:04:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr ([157.159.10.11]) by alpes.int-evry.fr (SAVSMTP 3.0.0.44) with SMTP id M2003060513001611255 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:00:16 +0200 Received: from ipv6-5.int-evry.fr (ipv6-5.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.78]) by sparte.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508333F48D for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:04:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jb by ipv6-5.int-evry.fr with local (Exim id 19NsSf-000KwQ-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:59:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 12:59:13 +0200 From: Julien Bournelle To: seamoby@ietf.org Message-ID: <20030605105913.GO68740@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, I was reading the draft about Context Transfer protocol and I was wondering why there is no message in response to the CTAR message. Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may want to send some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that it is always necessary but as it does not exist any documents specifying specific context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. Thanks, -- julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 5 22:20:21 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25638 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h562Jun32366 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:19:56 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h562JtB32363 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:19:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25612 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O6nm-0005Rb-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:17:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O6nl-0005RY-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:17:57 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h562JYB32337; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:19:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h562IaB32269 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:18:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25576 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O6mU-0005Qx-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:16:38 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O6mT-0005Qu-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:16:38 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id TAA17718; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h562HwI09976; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:17:58 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306060217> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd3aAhgb; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:17:56 PDT Message-ID: <3EDFF9D5.4919974B@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:17:57 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julien Bournelle CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? References: <20030605105913.GO68740@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Julian, yes, an optional response to CTAR could be defined. This might be useful as a response to the MN. Regards, -Rajeev Regards, Julien Bournelle wrote: > Hi, > > I was reading the draft about Context Transfer protocol and I was > wondering why there is no message in response to the CTAR message. > > Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may want to send > some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that it is always > necessary but as it does not exist any documents specifying specific > context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. > > Thanks, > -- > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 03:11:59 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12622 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h567BZX29553 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:11:35 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h567BYB29550 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:11:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12613 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OBLz-000710-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:09:35 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OBLz-00070x-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:09:35 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h567BMB29535; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:11:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h567ALB29493 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:10:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12603 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 03:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OBKo-000709-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:08:22 -0400 Received: from news.ti.com ([192.94.94.33] helo=dragon.ti.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OBKo-000706-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:08:22 -0400 Received: from dlep51.itg.ti.com ([157.170.141.75]) by dragon.ti.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5679i1p024073; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 02:09:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dlep98.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep51.itg.ti.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5679ilp023878; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 02:09:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dbde01.itg.ti.com (dbde01.itg.ti.com [157.87.95.201]) by dlep98.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01396; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 02:09:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: by dbde01.itg.ti.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:39:41 +0530 Message-ID: From: "Motiwala, Yusuf" To: "'Rajeev Koodli'" , Julien Bournelle Cc: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:39:40 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Rajeev, Even if MN has moved, will mandatory response help in detecting any DoS attempt by fake CTAR? Regards, Yusuf > -----Original Message----- > From: Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:48 AM > To: Julien Bournelle > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > > Hello Julian, > > yes, an optional response to CTAR could be > defined. This might be useful as a response to the > MN. > > Regards, > > -Rajeev > > > Regards, > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I was reading the draft about Context Transfer protocol and I was > > wondering why there is no message in response to the CTAR message. > > > > Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may > want to send > > some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that > it is always > > necessary but as it does not exist any documents specifying specific > > context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 07:43:20 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18424 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56Bgqt15965 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:52 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56BgpB15962 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18410 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OFaa-0000rC-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:40:56 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OFaa-0000r8-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:40:56 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56BgVB15924; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:31 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56BfMB15872 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:41:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18377 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OFZ9-0000qk-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:39:27 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OFZ8-0000qh-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:39:26 -0400 Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h56BfJD01793 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:41:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:41:18 +0300 Received: from esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.51]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:41:19 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:40:58 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:40:58 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Thread-Index: AcMr+un612H+ZgCfQRmdAwXatw1RQAAJYtEw To: , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2003 11:40:58.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7FB79860:01C32C20] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h56BfMB15873 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yusef & Julien, Could you supply some text? thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Motiwala, Yusuf [mailto:motiwala@ti.com] > Sent: 06 June, 2003 10:10 > To: 'Rajeev Koodli'; Julien Bournelle > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > Rajeev, > > Even if MN has moved, will mandatory response help in > detecting any DoS > attempt by fake CTAR? > > Regards, > Yusuf > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:48 AM > > To: Julien Bournelle > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > > > > > > Hello Julian, > > > > yes, an optional response to CTAR could be > > defined. This might be useful as a response to the > > MN. > > > > Regards, > > > > -Rajeev > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I was reading the draft about Context Transfer protocol and I was > > > wondering why there is no message in response to the CTAR message. > > > > > > Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may > > want to send > > > some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that > > it is always > > > necessary but as it does not exist any documents > specifying specific > > > context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -- > > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 9 18:05:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22759 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h59M58O08270 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:05:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59M58B08267 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:05:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22697 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PUjF-0007Ne-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:03:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PUjE-0007Na-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:03:00 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59M3hB08186; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:03:43 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53GVeB31649 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:31:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13421 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NEfV-0000IZ-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 12:29:49 -0400 Received: from [131.227.74.4] (helo=phoebe.eim.surrey.ac.uk ident=exim) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19NEfS-0000IW-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 12:29:47 -0400 Received: from ccsrmclt03.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.86.163] helo=eim.surrey.ac.uk ident=ees2mg) by phoebe.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #4) id 19NEh1-0004zs-00; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:31:23 +0100 Message-ID: <3EDCCD5B.4B16AE1A@eim.surrey.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:31:23 +0100 From: Michael Georgiades Organization: University of Surrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-17.7.x i686) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: seamoby CC: Christos Politis Subject: Re: [Seamoby] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt References: <200306021128.HAA01641@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B4DEBEF99255E1D3F820180F" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-102.0 required=5.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HTML_20_30,REFERENCES, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Scanner: exiscan *19NEh1-0004zs-00*rXMo.BjwR9o* (SECM, UniS) Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B4DEBEF99255E1D3F820180F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E1E7C57976A3536A4A88ECCC" --------------E1E7C57976A3536A4A88ECCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have attached a review of the ctp-02 draft. I have made some comments and questions marked with "M.Georgiades" and made some minor corrections (Please ignore if incorrect). Best regards, Mike Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Context Transfer Protocol > Author(s) : J. Loughney et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2003-5-30 > > -- Michael Georgiades Research Fellow Centre for Communication Systems Research University of Surrey Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7XH Tel: +44 (0) 1483 683605 Fax: +44 (0) 1483 686011 www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/ccsr --------------E1E7C57976A3536A4A88ECCC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,

I have attached a review of the ctp-02 draft.
I have made some comments and questions marked with "M.Georgiades" and made some minor corrections (Please ignore if incorrect).

Best regards,

Mike

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Context Transfer Protocol
        Author(s)       : J. Loughney et al.
        Filename        : draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt
        Pages           : 21
        Date            : 2003-5-30
 
 

-- 
Michael Georgiades
Research Fellow
Centre for Communication Systems Research
University of Surrey
Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7XH

Tel: +44 (0) 1483 683605
Fax: +44 (0) 1483 686011
www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/ccsr
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--------------B4DEBEF99255E1D3F820180F-- _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 07:29:27 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20669 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ABSwu10757 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:28:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ABSwB10754 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:28:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20645 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhHC-0003s2-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:26:54 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhHB-0003rz-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:26:53 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ABPbB10624; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:25:37 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ABORB10586 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:24:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20436 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:24:25 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhCp-0003o2-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:22:23 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhCo-0003nz-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:22:22 -0400 Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5ABON912067 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:24:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:24:23 +0300 Received: from esebe013.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.52]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:24:23 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe013.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:24:18 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:24:17 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Thread-Index: AcMr+un612H+ZgCfQRmdAwXatw1RQAAJYtEwAMiQwzA= To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2003 11:24:18.0698 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5275EA0:01C32F42] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5ABORB10587 Subject: [Seamoby] CTP Issue tracker Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I have created an issue tracker for CTP and will be logging in last call comments. The issue tracker can be found here: http://danforsberg.info:8080/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp/index thanks, John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 08:15:09 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22922 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ACEf615195 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:14:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ACEeB15192 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:14:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22898 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhzQ-0004Hf-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:12:36 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PhzP-0004Hc-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:12:35 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ACEIB15158; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:14:18 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ACDnB15108 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:13:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22829 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Phya-0004Gz-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:11:44 -0400 Received: from go4.ext.ti.com ([192.91.75.132]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Phya-0004Fr-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:11:44 -0400 Received: from dlep51.itg.ti.com ([157.170.141.75]) by go4.ext.ti.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5ACDGwD000501; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:13:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dlep98.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep51.itg.ti.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5ACDFlp024923; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:13:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dbde01.itg.ti.com (dbde01.itg.ti.com [157.87.95.201]) by dlep98.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08975; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:13:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: by dbde01.itg.ti.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:43:12 +0530 Message-ID: From: "Motiwala, Yusuf" To: "'john.loughney@nokia.com'" , rajeev@iprg.nokia.com, Julien.Bournelle@int-evry.fr Cc: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:43:10 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , John, One case I could think of is: AR can remove the session information and association of MS if it receives CTAR. Now if an entity fakes CTAR which pretends to be from some MS, the MS will be under DoS attack. In case when there is no response, MS will never know the cause of disconnectivity. In normal scenario, if AR send the ack, even MS moved, it will not harm. Regards, Yusuf > -----Original Message----- > From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:11 PM > To: Motiwala, Yusuf; rajeev@iprg.nokia.com; > Julien.Bournelle@int-evry.fr > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > Yusef & Julien, > > Could you supply some text? > > thanks, > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Motiwala, Yusuf [mailto:motiwala@ti.com] > > Sent: 06 June, 2003 10:10 > > To: 'Rajeev Koodli'; Julien Bournelle > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > > > > Rajeev, > > > > Even if MN has moved, will mandatory response help in > > detecting any DoS > > attempt by fake CTAR? > > > > Regards, > > Yusuf > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:48 AM > > > To: Julien Bournelle > > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Julian, > > > > > > yes, an optional response to CTAR could be > > > defined. This might be useful as a response to the > > > MN. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > -Rajeev > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I was reading the draft about Context Transfer > protocol and I was > > > > wondering why there is no message in response to the > CTAR message. > > > > > > > > Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may > > > want to send > > > > some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that > > > it is always > > > > necessary but as it does not exist any documents > > specifying specific > > > > context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 09:31:31 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29479 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ADV4J21399 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADV4B21396 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29448 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjBK-0006Gp-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:28:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjBJ-0006Gm-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:28:57 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADUTB21308; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:30:29 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADRIB21178 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:27:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29116 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:27:14 -0400 (EDT) From: phil.neumiller@convergys.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Pj7f-00069p-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:25:11 -0400 Received: from cvgmx1.convergys.com ([63.210.255.12] ident=mirapoint) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Pj7f-00069g-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:25:11 -0400 Received: from nd.convergys.com (cvgsmtp1.cbis.com [155.90.14.35]) by cvgmx1.convergys.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with ESMTP id ALQ58244; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:25:08 -0400 (EDT) To: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:25:21 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CVGSMTP1/SRVR/CVG(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 06/10/2003 09:24:58 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi Folks, I hope its not too late for a comment. In section 2, paragraph 5 it says >... "Such a trigger must be capable of providing the >necessary information, such as the MN's IP address with >which the contexts are associated, the IP addresses of >the access routers, and authorization to transfer context. The way this is written may lead to some confusion in the future. Recall that IP addresses are assigned to interfaces, not nodes. So the "MN's IP address" should be specifically described as its mobile IP home address, or the IP address assigned to a particular air interface (COA) or Link Local or whatever type of address is being used. The rest of document seems to do this, but front part doesn't. Also in section 2, >The messages (CTD and CTDR) which perform the context transfer >between the access routers need to be authenticated, so that the >access routers can be certain that the data has not been tampered >with during delivery. Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper resistance. Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message digest etc). I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why not mandate IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If something else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), authentication, replay protection, etc. It also occurred to me that at least with 802.11, we have this 802.1x stuff going on, where port based authorization may be required when wandering across administrative domains (currently RADIUS servers). In this case a mobile may be authenticated but unauthorized to access a network until roaming credentials have been verified via AAA. What advantage does CTP provide here? Should it not also trigger the back-office AAA to do something too? Where would the AAA hooks be added to CTP? Thanks, Phil -- "NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be corrected." _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 09:32:52 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29521 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ADWQM21549 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADWQB21546 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29505 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjCd-0006HU-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:30:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjCc-0006HR-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:30:18 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADW7B21513; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:32:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ADVDB21418 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29475 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjBT-0006H6-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:29:07 -0400 Received: from herculanum.int-evry.fr ([157.159.11.15]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PjBS-0006GL-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:29:06 -0400 Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr (spartebis.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.20]) by herculanum.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2E633BED; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:30:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpes.int-evry.fr (alpes.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.19]) by spartebis.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BF0B3F442; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:37:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr ([157.159.10.11]) by alpes.int-evry.fr (SAVSMTP 3.0.0.44) with SMTP id M2003061015303828146 ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:30:38 +0200 Received: from ipv6-5.int-evry.fr (ipv6-5.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.78]) by sparte.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CDA3F448; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:37:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jb by ipv6-5.int-evry.fr with local (Exim id 19PjBt-000OaV-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:29:33 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:29:33 +0200 From: Julien Bournelle To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: motiwala@ti.com, rajeev@iprg.nokia.com, seamoby@ietf.org Message-ID: <20030610132933.GW68740@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , hi all, On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 02:40:58PM +0300, john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Yusef & Julien, > > Could you supply some text? I guess that you mean a text to add in the draft, if I'm not wrong, this is some comments/questions to clarify: 1/ in part 2/ protocol overview, we have the text: "Recall that the MN always sends CTAR message to nAR regardless of whether it sent the CTAR message to pAR. The reason for this is that there is no means for the MN to ascertain that context transfer reliably took place. By always sending the CTAR message to nAR, the Context Transfer Request (see below) can be sent to pAR whenever necessary. " I guess that this text should be updated/deleted if we introduce a new message in response to CTAR. 2/ if we introduce this message, does MN always send a message to nAR as specified in 2.4.1 ? I think that if it sends a CTAR to pAR and receives a response before the handover takes place, this is not necessary. 3/ how do we call this message ? Maybe "Context Transfer Activate Answer (CTAA)" because use of "Reply" could be confusing :-) 4/ What does this message must content ? - MN's Previous Co@ ? - OverallStatus Ctx-1 Status ...like in CTDR ? - An authentication Token ? - Optionnal data in response to a specific extension (e.g. IPsec/QoS..) 5/ For the optionnal data, how do we "format" them ? 6/ Others ? -- julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 13 13:01:40 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12866 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5DH1Dj05874 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:01:13 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5DH1Dm05871 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:01:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12807 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QrtG-0006qb-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:59:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QrtG-0006qW-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:59:02 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5DCW2a04912; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:32:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5DCVVm04889 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:31:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA00278 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QngH-00044F-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:29:21 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QngG-00044C-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:29:20 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5DCVSa18004 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:31:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:31:28 +0300 Received: from esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.57]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:31:28 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:31:28 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:31:27 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcMvVH+YhaOsVaQNRXmBn6cn0NLHlQCUsUgQ To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2003 12:31:28.0118 (UTC) FILETIME=[B61D5160:01C331A7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5DCVVm04890 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Phil, > In section 2, paragraph 5 it says > >... "Such a trigger must be capable of providing the > >necessary information, such as the MN's IP address with > >which the contexts are associated, the IP addresses of > >the access routers, and authorization to transfer context. > > The way this is written may lead to some confusion in the > future. Recall that IP addresses are assigned to interfaces, > not nodes. So the "MN's IP address" should be specifically > described as its mobile IP home address, or the IP address > assigned to a particular air interface (COA) or Link Local > or whatever type of address is being used. The rest of > document seems to do this, but front part doesn't. Could you provide a re-write? > Also in section 2, > >The messages (CTD and CTDR) which perform the context transfer > >between the access routers need to be authenticated, so that the > >access routers can be certain that the data has not been tampered > >with during delivery. > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper resistance. > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message digest etc). > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why not mandate > IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If something > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), authentication, > replay protection, etc. Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? > It also occurred to me that at least with 802.11, we have this > 802.1x stuff going on, where port based authorization may be > required when wandering across administrative domains (currently > RADIUS servers). In this case a mobile may be authenticated but > unauthorized to access a network until roaming credentials have > been verified via AAA. What advantage does CTP provide here? > Should it not also trigger the back-office AAA to do something > too? Where would the AAA hooks be added to CTP? Good point, I think that is outside of the scope of this document. I think a follow-on document covering this would be potentially useful. br, John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 14 23:27:14 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10408 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5F3Qg414751 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:26:42 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5F3QZm14744 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:26:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10396 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RO7y-0001MG-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:24:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RO7x-0001MB-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:24:21 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5F1J2a08453; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:19:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5F1IZm08427 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:18:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09055 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RM86-00012v-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:16:22 -0400 Received: from mail.flarion.com ([63.103.94.23] helo=rrmail01.lab.flarion.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RM84-00012k-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:16:20 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:17:56 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0141BACD@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Soliman Hesham To: "'john.loughney@nokia.com'" , phil.neumiller@convergys.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:17:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > resistance. > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message digest etc). > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why not mandate > > IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If > something > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), authentication, > > replay protection, etc. > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport protocol for CTP). Hesham _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 16 18:33:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06826 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5GMX6B10642 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:33:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GMX6m10639 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:33:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06823 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S2Uy-0007fi-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:30:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S2Ux-0007fe-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:30:47 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GKG2a00333; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:16:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GKFsm00314 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:15:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29942 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S0MD-000694-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:13:37 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S0MC-000691-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:13:37 -0400 Message-ID: <014701c33443$e0d62690$cc6ffea9@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:14:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] WG Last Call for CT Draft Over Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Working Group Last Call for the Seamoby Context Transfer draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt, is now over. There has been a good deal of comment to the list about the draft, and we have solicited reviews from the review board that I will be posting to the list shortly. John Loughney, the draft editor, will be working with Pat and I to refine the comments into issues for the issues list. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 16 21:07:03 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11232 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5H16Zr21070 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:06:35 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H16Zm21067 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:06:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11214 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S4tV-00016E-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:04:17 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S4tU-00016B-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:04:16 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GEC1a06032; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:12:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GEB1m06003 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:11:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14974 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ruf6-0002rb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:08:44 -0400 Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.96.56]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ruf5-0002rX-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:08:43 -0400 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id JAA22329; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:10:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-hub-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.9.3p2/8.9.2/MBS-AV-02) with ESMTP id JAA08629; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-01.nw.nos.boeing.com [192.33.62.231]) by blv-hub-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id h5GEAeL13535; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-05.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.42.226.70]) by XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6662); Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:10:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcMy7aQ0PzarW2v+TG+mZ8x780SOwQBIvcXQ From: "Paine, Richard H" To: "Soliman Hesham" , , , Cc: "Henderson, Thomas R" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jun 2003 14:10:42.0404 (UTC) FILETIME=[12628240:01C33411] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5GEB2m06004 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Host Identity Payload (HIP) offers this per-packet authentication. The group working HIP in the IETF includes Bob Moskowitz and Tom Henderson of Boeing. Why not include HIP as part of the Seamoby specs? Richard H. Paine Success is getting what you want, happiness is liking what you get! Work: 425-865-4921 Pager: 206-797-4580 Cell: 206-854-8199 IPPhone: 425-373-8964 Email: richard.h.paine@boeing.com -----Original Message----- From: Soliman Hesham [mailto:H.Soliman@flarion.com] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 6:18 PM To: 'john.loughney@nokia.com'; phil.neumiller@convergys.com; seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > resistance. > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message digest etc). > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why not mandate > > IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If > something > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), authentication, > > replay protection, etc. > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport protocol for CTP). Hesham _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 16 23:02:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13957 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5H325v29265 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:02:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H325m29262 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:02:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13946 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S6hH-0001q1-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:59:47 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S6hG-0001py-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:59:46 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GLJ2a05556; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:19:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GLIAm05513 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:18:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03192 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S1KS-000715-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:15:53 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S1KR-00070i-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:15:52 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA18561; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5GLHYL06156; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:17:34 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306162117> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd45hFEL; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:17:32 PDT Message-ID: <3EEE33ED.160B194A@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:17:33 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Motiwala, Yusuf" CC: Julien Bournelle , seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Yusuf, trying to catch up.. "Motiwala, Yusuf" wrote: > Rajeev, > > Even if MN has moved, will mandatory response help in detecting any DoS > attempt by fake CTAR? > Let me see if I understood your question: I don't see why a response is necessary if CTAR is verified to be bogus. The MN could not initiate CT without supplying auth token. Regards, -Rajeev > > Regards, > Yusuf > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:48 AM > > To: Julien Bournelle > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] a CTAR response ? > > > > > > > > Hello Julian, > > > > yes, an optional response to CTAR could be > > defined. This might be useful as a response to the > > MN. > > > > Regards, > > > > -Rajeev > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I was reading the draft about Context Transfer protocol and I was > > > wondering why there is no message in response to the CTAR message. > > > > > > Basically, I think that in some cases, the nAR or pAR may > > want to send > > > some data (e.g. a Co@ or something else). I'm not sure that > > it is always > > > necessary but as it does not exist any documents specifying specific > > > context transfer (e.g IPsec), some problems may raise later. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -- > > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 16 23:53:37 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15343 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5H3r9V00823 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:53:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H3qum00810 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:52:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15314 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S7UT-0002D3-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:50:37 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S7UT-0002D0-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:50:37 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GLR1a06027; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:27:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GLQtm06002 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:26:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03412 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S1Sw-00075a-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:24:38 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S1Sv-00075V-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:24:37 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA18974; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5GLQKD14064; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:26:20 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306162126> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpduQOuFh; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:26:18 PDT Message-ID: <3EEE35FB.9BDFBB57@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:26:19 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julien Bournelle CC: john.loughney@nokia.com, motiwala@ti.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response References: <20030610132933.GW68740@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julien Bournelle wrote: > hi all, > > On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 02:40:58PM +0300, john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > Yusef & Julien, > > > > Could you supply some text? > > I guess that you mean a text to add in the draft, if I'm not wrong, this > is some comments/questions to clarify: > > 1/ in part 2/ protocol overview, we have the text: > > "Recall that the MN always sends CTAR message to nAR regardless of > whether it sent the CTAR message to pAR. The reason for this is that > there is no means for the MN to ascertain that context transfer > reliably took place. By always sending the CTAR message to nAR, the > Context Transfer Request (see below) can be sent to pAR whenever > necessary. > " > > I guess that this text should be updated/deleted if we introduce a new > message in response to CTAR. > > 2/ if we introduce this message, does MN always send a message to > nAR as specified in 2.4.1 ? > > I think that if it sends a CTAR to pAR and receives a response before > the handover takes place, this is not necessary. > No. You still need it. How does nAR know that the legitimate MN has attached and is requesting the contexts? Even if the MN has received some sort of notification that the CT has taken place, the nAR needs to verify that the auth-token matcges before making the contexts available. -Rajeev > > 3/ how do we call this message ? > Maybe "Context Transfer Activate Answer (CTAA)" because use of "Reply" > could be confusing :-) > > 4/ What does this message must content ? > > - MN's Previous Co@ ? > > - OverallStatus Ctx-1 Status ...like in CTDR ? > > - An authentication Token ? > > - Optionnal data in response to a specific extension (e.g. IPsec/QoS..) > > 5/ For the optionnal data, how do we "format" them ? > > 6/ Others ? > > -- > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 01:24:17 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17392 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5H5Nme07623 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H5Nmm07620 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17379 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S8uQ-0002jd-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:21:30 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S8uP-0002ja-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:21:29 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H2a3a27441; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:36:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H2Zhm27424 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:35:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13456 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S6Hl-0001jA-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:33:25 -0400 Received: from mail.flarion.com ([63.103.94.23] helo=rrmail01.lab.flarion.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S6Hk-0001j5-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:33:25 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0141BADB@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Soliman Hesham To: "'Paine, Richard H'" , Soliman Hesham , john.loughney@nokia.com, phil.neumiller@convergys.com, seamoby@ietf.org Cc: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:34:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I'm not sure how this is relevant to our discussion. We need confidentiality and integrity protection between the 2 ARs. There is already a solution: IPsec. Hesham > -----Original Message----- > From: Paine, Richard H [mailto:richard.h.paine@boeing.com] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 10:11 AM > To: Soliman Hesham; john.loughney@nokia.com; > phil.neumiller@convergys.com; seamoby@ietf.org > Cc: Henderson, Thomas R > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > The Host Identity Payload (HIP) offers this per-packet > authentication. The group working HIP in the IETF includes > Bob Moskowitz and Tom Henderson of Boeing. Why not include > HIP as part of the Seamoby specs? > > Richard H. Paine > Success is getting what you want, happiness is liking what you get! > Work: 425-865-4921 > Pager: 206-797-4580 > Cell: 206-854-8199 > IPPhone: 425-373-8964 > Email: richard.h.paine@boeing.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Soliman Hesham [mailto:H.Soliman@flarion.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 6:18 PM > To: 'john.loughney@nokia.com'; phil.neumiller@convergys.com; > seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > > > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > > resistance. > > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message > digest etc). > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked > about. Why not mandate > > IPsec as the minimal supported > SA between pAR and nAR? If > > something > > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), > authentication, > > replay protection, etc. > > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? > > => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, > a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will > be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport > protocol for CTP). > > Hesham > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 03:03:13 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01395 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5H72j828838 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:02:45 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H72jm28835 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:02:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01385 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SASA-0003Zh-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:00:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SASA-0003Ze-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:00:26 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GKS1a00853; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:28:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5GKREm00804 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:27:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00569 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S0XC-0006L2-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:24:58 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S0XB-0006Kz-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:24:57 -0400 Message-ID: <017701c33445$762882a0$cc6ffea9@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:25:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0174_01C3340A.C975BE40" Subject: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C3340A.C975BE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat and I solicited a few outside reviewers for the Seamoby CT Review Board. Of the people asked, Pekka Savola and Raj Patil sent reviews. Pekka and Raj should be well known as long time IETF participants. Pekka is co-chair of the v6ops WG and prodigious technical commentator on MIPv6 and IPv6. Raj is co-chair of the MIP WG. I've attached copies of their reviews here. We plan to incorporate their comments into the issues list, but please feel free to address their comments on the list. jak ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C3340A.C975BE40 Content-Type: text/plain; name="patil-review.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patil-review.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= I-D: draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt=0A= =0A= Review comments=0A= ---------------=0A= =0A= General:=0A= =0A= Context transfer as described in this I-D is specifically targeted for=0A= enhancing the seamless nature of handoffs and reducing the disruptions=0A= to applications as a result of mobility. =0A= Two comments w.r.t the above statement:=0A= 1. It is not clear from the draft what sort of applications are being=0A= considered that would benefit from CT.=0A= 2. Claims about performance gains as a result of CT and thereby=0A= avoiding the node having to renegotiate state with the AR are=0A= unfounded. =0A= =0A= The CT proposal would benefit from experience gained by having=0A= implementations and simulation exercises. To that end having this=0A= draft standardized as Experimental would help.=0A= =0A= Another thing that puzzled me is how does a MN know if there is any=0A= context that exists at an AR? I can understand the cases for HC and=0A= QoS wherein the MN may have made specific requests to the AR. Are=0A= there other instances as well? Otherwise the MN really has no reason=0A= to be sending the CTAR. For example there may be context created at=0A= the AR simply as a result of the MN being authenticated. However the=0A= MN really has no idea about it and when it moves to a new AR, the same=0A= authorization context may be useful. But how does the MN know to=0A= initiate CT? Since it has no clue in the first place of the existence=0A= of any context.=0A= =0A= Specific comments about I-D:=0A= =0A= 1. The Protocol Messages (CTAR, CTDR, CTR) described in sections 2.4.x=0A= need to have descriptions of each of the fields and flags. Also the=0A= type numbers need to be requested from IANA for these messages.=0A= =0A= 2. Error codes have not been defined in the document.=0A= =0A= 3. Formatting:=0A= a. No page numbers in the draft=0A= b. The ToC does not include page numbers as well=0A= c. Number the references (In the references section)=0A= d. There is no link from references in the text of the document to=0A= the references section.=0A= =0A= 4. s/to reducing latency, packet losses and avoid/to reduce latency,=0A= packet loss and avoiding=0A= =0A= 5. Section 1. Introduction=0A= a. The introduction relies on the justification for CT as described in=0A= RFC3374. The introduction should focus on what this draft is about=0A= rather than the justification which is provided in the 1st=0A= paragraph.=0A= =0A= b. "context transfer-candidate services" - Please describe what=0A= these candidate services are. Or at least provide a few examples of=0A= the services being considered.=0A= =0A= c. Argument 2: "interoperable solution that works for any Layer 2=0A= radio access technology" is a lofty claim or goal. Not required in=0A= the scope of this protocol.=0A= =0A= d. s/of application streams./of application streams:=0A= s/benefits./benefits:=0A= s/savings./savings:=0A= s/to errors./to errors:=0A= =0A= e. i/over an expensive, low-speed link/over an expensive, low-speed=0A= link (MN-AR)=0A= i/higher-speed wire/higher-speed wire (between ARs).=0A= =0A= f. "operates over reliable networks" - State that this is an=0A= assumption about reliability of inter-AR links.=0A= =0A= g. s/In this document we describe/This document describes=0A= =0A= 6. Section 1.2=0A= Would be good to define terminology such as FPT or point to a=0A= proper reference if this has been defined elsewhere=0A= =0A= 7. Section 2=0A= a. Pargaraph 1 - CT is initiated by the MN or the network as a=0A= result of Handover. Is this the only case? Or can this be a result=0A= of network failure or service disruption because of maintenance?=0A= =0A= b. "We assume that pAR and nAR share an appropriate security=0A= association, set up independently and prior to context transfer." -=0A= It would be good to say that the details of how this SA is setup=0A= and the type of SA (IPsec or other)e are outside the scope this=0A= document. =0A= =0A= c. The protocol overview section would be clearer if organized into=0A= multiple subsections:=0A= 2.0 Prototool Overview=0A= 2.1 Use of FPT=0A= 2.2 Scenarios=0A= 2.2.1 Scenario 1=0A= 2.2.2 Scenario 2=0A= =0A= Also having flow diagrams that are shown later in the document=0A= as part of the scenarios would help.=0A= =0A= d. "Doing this locally at nAR when the MN attaches to it=0A= improves performance, " - Is it not also a requirement for=0A= security reasons?=0A= =0A= e. "Performing context transfer in advance of the MN attaching to = nAR=0A= clearly has potential for better performance" - This is an=0A= assumption that would need further justification. State that=0A= this is an assumption or backup the claim.=0A= =0A= f. "This is feasible for instance in Mobile IP fast handovers."=0A= - Most cellular networks also have the capability to determine=0A= that a mobile needs to be handed off. So mention this to be the=0A= case in most cellular networks.=0A= =0A= g. "must be properly synchronized with appropriate handover=0A= messages, such as Mobile IP (Fast) Binding Update." - Do not=0A= need this dependency. Delete statement.=0A= =0A= h. The last paragraph discusses again the SAs between=0A= ARs. Mention that this is outside the scope of this document and=0A= be done. No reason to get into details of an SA being easier for=0A= intra-domain vs inter-domain etc.=0A= =0A= 8. Section 2.4=0A= a. "The Mobile Node, for which context transfer protocol operations = are=0A= undertaken, is always identified by its previous IP access=0A= address." - Is uniqueness of the address at the previous AR=0A= guaranteed? For example in the case of Mobile IPv4, MNs which have=0A= private addresses may use the FA advertised CoA and reverse tunnel=0A= to the HA. In that case there could be multiple MNs with the same=0A= IP address(HoA). The FA is able to differentiate them based on the=0A= HA, HoA combination.=0A= =0A= b. "At any one time, only one context transfer operation may be in=0A= progress" - I could not understand whether this is the case on a=0A= per MN basis or for a pair of ARs=0A= =0A= 9. Section 2.4.1=0A= a. "Always sent by" - Dont start a sentence of a paragraph with a=0A= verb (Nit - Sorry :) )=0A= =0A= b. "it should also be relayed to pAR." - Why?=0A= =0A= 10. Section 2.4.2=0A= "The Authorization Token is obtained by truncating the results of=0A= the HMAC_SHA1 computation to retain only the leading 32 bits." =0A= - Is this sufficient? I mean just the leading 32 bits? But maybe=0A= this is more of a question for security experts.=0A= =0A= =0A= 11. Section 2.4.4=0A= "If transfering a context requires an ongoing process (i.e., is not=0A= short-lived)," - CT is most useful as described earlier for=0A= reducing packet loss and performance degradation of apps. Hence it=0A= is critical that CT has to be relatively quick. So I dont=0A= understand what you mean by CT not being short-lived. If it is not=0A= short-lived, it is useless.=0A= =0A= 12. Section 3=0A= =0A= a. "CTP runs over UDP using port number . - This needs to be=0A= requested from IANA. Hence properly documented as such.=0A= =0A= b."because of the physical proximity of the access routers" - This=0A= is an assumption of the topology and need not be the case.=0A= =0A= c. i/UDP provides a optional checksum/UDP provides an optional...=0A= =0A= d. "the status value BAD_UDP_CHECKSUM," - Where in the document=0A= are these error codes specified?=0A= =0A= 13. Section 4=0A= Keep the list of open issues in an appendix.=0A= =0A= 14. Section 5=0A= Flow diagrams are good. However more text is needed to explain=0A= each of these in the document.=0A= =0A= In 5.3:=0A= a. "CTAR request to nAR (nAR must be able to authenticate MN for CT,=0A= security details later)" - When later?=0A= =0A= b. How does the MN know if the new AR is capable of processing=0A= CTAR?=0A= =0A= c. What happens to the context at the pAR after transfer is=0A= complete? Not explained in document.=0A= =0A= In 5.4:=0A= "routed through nAR (routing details later)."=0A= When later?=0A= =0A= 15. Section 6=0A= =0A= It would be good to have the security considerations section split=0A= up into the threats that exist and how they are tackled.=0A= =0A= From paragraph 2 it appears that there is an assumption about the=0A= topology of the network connecting the ARs. It would be good to=0A= keep it more general.=0A= =0A= Is it also not the case that AAA based mechansisms can be used for=0A= setting up the SA between ARs?=0A= =0A= 16. Section 7=0A= =0A= The IANA section is not well written and does not provide enough=0A= guidelines for assigning type numbers and error codes and for the=0A= setup of the registry proposed by this document.=0A= =0A= 17. Section 8=0A= s/during the creating of/during the creation of=0A= =0A= 18. Appendix A=0A= =0A= "This diagram illustrates the method for specifying context type=0A= data"=0A= What diagram?=0A= =0A= Also more text explaining the Context Type and how it fits into=0A= the CTD message would help.=0A= =0A= ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C3340A.C975BE40 Content-Type: text/plain; name="savola-review.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="savola-review.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I really don't have the cycles for this ATM, but still a few points given=0A= below. I only read it about halfway through and skimmed the rest. =0A= According to "SIRS" taxonomy, I'd perhaps give it a:=0A= =0A= * This draft has serious issues, described=0A= in the review, and needs to be rethought.=0A= =0A= or maybe even:=0A= =0A= * This draft has very fundamental issues, =0A= described in the review, and further work =0A= is not recommended.=0A= =0A= because quite frankly, I don't understand the *real* advantages for =0A= context transfers. I don't understand what is the data *in practice* = you =0A= want to transfer, and what is the performance gain of transferring such =0A= data (yeah, I quickly read through the problem statement RFC but was not =0A= convinced :-).=0A= =0A= HTH.=0A= =0A= substantial=0A= -----------=0A= =0A= - first thought: "state is evil, distributed state is even more evil." = I =0A= think it must be *very* clear exactly what state should be transferred = and =0A= what are the real benefits of that related to the time it would take to =0A= re-establish the state -- and whether the state transfers can be made to =0A= work ok. Otherwise you can just wait pushback from IESG/IAB.. :-)=0A= =0A= - spell out deployment restrictions of nAR + pAR for sharing security =0A= associations; e.g. same ISP's network? does MN/nAR/pAR somehow have to =0A= discover whether CT makes sense (e.g. when MN moves to some really = foreign =0A= network, no use even trying to do CT's)?=0A= =0A= - it is not explicit how exactly the MN's/nAR/pAR's *know* the address =0A= (more than that: a global identifier address, not just a link-local =0A= address) of pAR (and more so, nAR). =0A= * does it have to know it in advance, before moving (how?) ?=0A= * if it knows it after the fact, is context transfer already too late?=0A= * etc.=0A= also present later in:=0A= =0A= The Mobile Node, for which context transfer protocol operations are=0A= undertaken, is always identified by its previous *IP access address*.=0A= =0A= - along the same lines, it is not clear when exactly the different =0A= context transfer variants are supposed to be applicable, for example:=0A= * when MN is detecting that another AR is nearby and is pre-emptively =0A= considering switching to it=0A= * after some association with nAR has been made, but prior to =0A= disconnecting from pAR=0A= * after disconnecting from pAR=0A= * others?=0A= (this has been somewhat discussed after different context transfer =0A= scenarios, but as scenarios are rather lengthty one think what are they =0A= used for..)=0A= =0A= - considerations wrt. transferring old context overriding new, already =0A= allocated contexts?=0A= =0A= - example context in appendix A does not include almost anything = required =0A= of context type specification, ie. it's more harm than it's worth. =0A= Elaborate or kill it.=0A= =0A= - different message types etc. are *ridiculously* underspecified, for =0A= example:=0A= =0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= |Type=3DAuth-Token| Type Len | Replay |=0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= | MN Authorization Token |=0A= =0A= for clarity, *much* more than a paragraph or two about something on = all =0A= the field contents is required. As one example, the first introduction = of =0A= 'MN Auth Token' doesn't mention its contents at all; in the next section =0A= it is said that it's HMAC_SHA1, etc. Contents of the Replay field = haven't =0A= said *at all* (except that it's included in the computation, so it's =0A= probably a nonce of some sort for replay protection).=0A= =0A= Similarly e.g. in:=0A= =0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= | Mobile Node's New Care-of Address, if C=3D1 |=0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= | Type=3DAuth | Type Length | Algorithm | Key Length =0A= |=0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= =0A= The algorithm for carrying out the computation of the MN=0A= Authorization Token is HMAC_SHA1.=0A= =0A= =3D=3D> but what if C=3D0? Is the field zero (not specified) or = omitted (very =0A= unprobable but theoretically possible)?=0A= =3D=3D> Algorithm and other fields are reserved, but the format used = to =0A= encode algorithm mappings hasn't been specified, etc.=0A= =0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= | OverallStatus | Ctx-1 Status | Ctx-2 Status | ...... =0A= |=0A= =0A= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A= =0A= The OverallStatus is used for reporting overall success or failure,=0A= which could be based on verification of the MN authorization token =0A= for instance.=0A= =0A= =3D=3D> it isn't specified what kind of OverallStatus values indicate =0A= overall success an failure :-) In general, document refers a lot of =0A= status codes, but those aren't listed anywhere..=0A= =0A= - security considerations wrt. authentication of all context transfer =0A= messages should be considered. In some cases, IPsec AH is a should, in =0A= some it's not used.=0A= =0A= 2.4.3 Context Transfer Data Reply (CTDR) Message=0A= =0A= This message is sent by nAR to pAR depending on the value of the=0A= reliability flag in CTD. Indicates success or failure. This message=0A= SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header=0A= (AH)[RFC2402]=0A= =0A= 2.4.4 Context Transfer Cancel (CTC) Message=0A= =0A= If transfering a context requires an ongoing process (i.e., is not =0A= short-lived), then nAR may send CTC to pAR to cancel an ongoing CT =0A= process.=0A= =0A= ... however, this wording is not sufficient. As the context transfer=0A= protocol uses UDP, spoofing it is trivial. One needs to consider both=0A= ways to perform DoS attacks on nAR's or pAR's -- requesting context=0A= transfers (e.g. by spoofing the source IP address of a valid nAR or pAR) = =0A= -- and ways to try to extract some information on pAR's (e.g. state=0A= information could be interesting for same reasons eavesdropping is=0A= interesting; state information could maybe also include sensitive data=0A= which should not be transferred over an unsecured medium).=0A= =0A= So, the model how security is used must be re-thought. It would seem to=0A= be the safest to say that AH (or maybe ESP, dunno) *MUST* be used for all=0A= message types, and describe different issues there. In some cases where=0A= context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the same=0A= security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, = even=0A= lower requirements might be reasonable.=0A= =0A= =0A= editorial=0A= ---------=0A= =0A= - ID-nits stuff=0A= * DOS-style CR/LF's off from at the end of lines=0A= * no reference to RFC2026 in the status of the memo=0A= =0A= - typos=0A= * abstract=0A= "transfer_s_ allow_s_"=0A= "to reduc_ing_ ..." ("to reduce" ?)=0A= * end=0A= "author's addresses" -> authors'=0A= =0A= - other stuff=0A= * s/Context Transfer Protocol/Context Transfer Protocol (CTP)/=0A= (if you want to use the abbreviation in the future..)=0A= * s/The proposed protocol/This protocol/=0A= * s/CT Activate Request/CT Activate Request (CTAR)/=0A= * same for CTD, CTDR etc.=0A= =0A= - reword "data packets" as they can be confused to refer to actual IP =0A= packets, in:=0A= =0A= The packet consists of a common header, message specific header and =0A= one or more data packets. Data packets may be bundled together in =0A= order ensure a more efficient transfer.=0A= =0A= - Is bits really an useful size metric? It seems that bytes or some =0A= multiple of bytes could be much better:=0A= =0A= - Number, size (in bits), and ordering of data fields in the=0A= state variable vector which embodies the context.=0A= =0A= - the "next 32 bits" is unambigous. The next 32 bits related to WHAT? =0A= The V-bit (meaning 31 bits of context type and 1 bit of presence = vector)? =0A= After the first 32 bits (meaning the 32-bit presence vector)?=0A= =0A= The 'V' bit specifies whether or not the "presence vector" is used. =0A= When the presence vector is in use, the next 32 bits are interpreted=0A= to indicate whether particular data fields are present (and, thus,=0A= containing non-default values).=0A= =0A= - especially the latter sencence "minus the accummulated size.. =0A= _implicitly_ ... default value" is unclear. This should be separated to = a =0A= paragraph/bullet list of its own:=0A= =0A= Notice that the length of=0A= the context data block is defined by the sum of lengths of each data=0A= field specified by the context type specification, plus 4 bytes if =0A= the 'V' bit is set, minus the accumulated size of all the context=0A= data that is implicitly given as a default value.=0A= =0A= =0A= - mechanism MSUT be provided so that requests are authenticated =0A= =3D=3D> s/MSUT/MUST/=0A= =0A= - references are missing the brackets, so I must guess which one is =0A= [LLMIP] etc.=0A= =0A= ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C3340A.C975BE40-- _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 06:11:15 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA05664 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HAAmH13893 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:10:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAAmm13890 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:10:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA05646 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDO8-0004cb-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:08:29 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDO8-0004cV-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:08:28 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H572a06113; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:07:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H56sm06027 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:06:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17073 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:06:52 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S8e4-0002do-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:04:36 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19S8e3-0002dl-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:04:35 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5H56o920676 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:50 +0300 Received: from esebe015.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.54]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:50 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe015.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:50 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:49 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcMy7aQ0PzarW2v+TG+mZ8x780SOwQBIvcXQAB9WrLA= To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 05:06:50.0252 (UTC) FILETIME=[428504C0:01C3348E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5H56sm06028 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard, HIP has been proposed, in one form or another, for some time. There has been at least one BOF, that I remember. I worry that including an unapproved spec into CTP makes CTP's continued existance less likely. What would be a better scenario is for someone more familiar with HIP to propose a follow-on draft how HIP could be used with CTP, if there is interest. br, John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Paine, Richard H [mailto:richard.h.paine@boeing.com] > Sent: 16 June, 2003 17:11 > To: Soliman Hesham; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki); > phil.neumiller@convergys.com; seamoby@ietf.org > Cc: Henderson, Thomas R > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > The Host Identity Payload (HIP) offers this per-packet > authentication. The group working HIP in the IETF includes > Bob Moskowitz and Tom Henderson of Boeing. Why not include > HIP as part of the Seamoby specs? > > Richard H. Paine > Success is getting what you want, happiness is liking what you get! > Work: 425-865-4921 > Pager: 206-797-4580 > Cell: 206-854-8199 > IPPhone: 425-373-8964 > Email: richard.h.paine@boeing.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Soliman Hesham [mailto:H.Soliman@flarion.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 6:18 PM > To: 'john.loughney@nokia.com'; phil.neumiller@convergys.com; > seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > > > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > > resistance. > > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message > digest etc). > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked > about. Why not mandate > > IPsec as the minimal supported > SA between pAR and nAR? If > > something > > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), > authentication, > > replay protection, etc. > > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? > > => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, > a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will > be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport > protocol for CTP). > > Hesham > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 11:50:07 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23605 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HFndO07209 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HFndm07205 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:49:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23593 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SIg5-00012p-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:47:21 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SIg4-00012m-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:47:20 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAm1a16370; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:48:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAlLm16344 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:47:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06476 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:47:17 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDxW-0004ne-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:45:02 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDxV-0004nb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:45:02 -0400 Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5HAlHa04026 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:47:17 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:44:55 +0300 Received: from esebe007.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.47]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:44:55 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe007.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:44:55 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:44:54 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Thread-Index: AcM0nsDnLosgyNSAQ0S5Icl//SCWHQAHk38A To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 10:44:55.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D3F9C90:01C334BD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HAlLm16345 Subject: [Seamoby] question to Pekka S. on CTP Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pekka, Before I dig into your comments, I have a quick question to you. You have the following substantial comments: ========== substantial ----------- - first thought: "state is evil, distributed state is even more evil." I think it must be *very* clear exactly what state should be transferred and what are the real benefits of that related to the time it would take to re-establish the state -- and whether the state transfers can be made to work ok. Otherwise you can just wait pushback from IESG/IAB.. :-) - spell out deployment restrictions of nAR + pAR for sharing security associations; e.g. same ISP's network? does MN/nAR/pAR somehow have to discover whether CT makes sense (e.g. when MN moves to some really foreign network, no use even trying to do CT's)? =========== I agree that the text needs to be improved, but how high of a barrier do you see that is needed to be achieved. One thing that was missed in the last update is to classify this as experimental. I think part of the point of going experimental was to allow some deployment & experiments to get a better handle on your concerns above. Do you think this is reasonable? thanks, John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 14:15:43 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29745 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HIFFN12164 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SJso-0003vg-Na for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:04:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26380 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SJqZ-0001lO-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:02:15 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SJqZ-0001lL-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:02:15 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAT2a14675; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:29:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HASjm14650 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA05982 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDfW-0004gp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:26:26 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDfV-0004gj-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:26:25 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5HASba16503 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:37 +0300 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:36 +0300 Received: from esebe002.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.17]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:35 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:35 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:28:34 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcMy5rplqI812bYbTn6L/aMr4IZyVwB1Gvew To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 10:28:35.0575 (UTC) FILETIME=[35638870:01C334BB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HASjm14651 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Assigned to issue 3. http://danforsberg.info:8080/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp/issue3 > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Soliman Hesham [mailto:H.Soliman@flarion.com] > Sent: 15 June, 2003 04:18 > To: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki); phil.neumiller@convergys.com; > seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > > > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > > resistance. > > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message > digest etc). > > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why > not mandate > > > IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If > > something > > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), > authentication, > > > replay protection, etc. > > > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? > > => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, > a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will > be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport > protocol for CTP). > > Hesham > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 14:15:52 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29795 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HIFNf12506 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SKbI-0001B3-Hj for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:50:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28015 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKZ2-0002Az-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:48:12 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKZ1-0002At-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:48:11 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HDm2a29762; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:48:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HDlGm29732 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:47:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15654 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:47:13 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SGld-0007Cl-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:44:57 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SGlc-0007Ci-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:44:56 -0400 Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5HDlCa19787 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:12 +0300 Received: from esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.50]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:12 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:12 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:12 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Thread-Index: AcM0nsDnLosgyNSAQ0S5Icl//SCWHQAOCC4w To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 13:47:12.0354 (UTC) FILETIME=[F457B420:01C334D6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HDlGm29733 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I logged several of Basavaraj's comments, I will log the rest tomorrow, along with Pekka's. Thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 16 June, 2003 23:26 > To: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board > > > Pat and I solicited a few outside reviewers for the Seamoby CT Review > Board. Of the people asked, Pekka Savola and Raj Patil sent reviews. > Pekka and Raj should be well known as long time IETF participants. > Pekka is co-chair of the v6ops WG and prodigious technical commentator > on MIPv6 and IPv6. Raj is co-chair of the MIP WG. > > I've attached copies of their reviews here. We plan to incorporate > their comments into the issues list, but please feel free to address > their comments on the list. > > jak > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 14:15:56 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29889 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HIFQV12867 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SKra-0002OT-Lo for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:07:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29098 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKpL-0002T8-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:05:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKpK-0002T5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:05:02 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HGD2a11151; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:13:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HGCem11129 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:12:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25032 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SJ2L-0001Pl-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:10:21 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SJ2L-0001Pc-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:10:21 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c334ea$f695cd30$7d6015ac@DCLKEMPFTP> From: "James Kempf" To: "Paine, Richard H" , "Soliman Hesham" , , , Cc: "Henderson, Thomas R" References: Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:10:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, IETF Working Groups work according to a charter. The Seamoby charter (currently way out of date) does not include HIP. The only two active items in the charter are Context Transfer and Candidate Access Router Discovery (IP Paging was dropped a few years ago). We are currently trying to complete these items so we can close the Working Group, since it has been three years since the work started and we really do need to show some accomplishment. If you'd like to see some standardization action on HIP, I'd suggest you talk to the ADs about sponsoring a BOF. But please be forwarned that HIP has already had BOFs several years ago, none of which resulted in formation of a Working Group. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paine, Richard H" To: "Soliman Hesham" ; ; ; Cc: "Henderson, Thomas R" Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > The Host Identity Payload (HIP) offers this per-packet authentication. The group working HIP in the IETF includes Bob Moskowitz and Tom Henderson of Boeing. Why not include HIP as part of the Seamoby specs? > > Richard H. Paine > Success is getting what you want, happiness is liking what you get! > Work: 425-865-4921 > Pager: 206-797-4580 > Cell: 206-854-8199 > IPPhone: 425-373-8964 > Email: richard.h.paine@boeing.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Soliman Hesham [mailto:H.Soliman@flarion.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 6:18 PM > To: 'john.loughney@nokia.com'; phil.neumiller@convergys.com; seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP > > > > > > Authentication of the end points does not provide tamper > > resistance. > > > Each message needs to be signed somehow (i.e. message digest etc). > > I see that in the appendix IPsec is talked about. Why not mandate > > IPsec as the minimal supported SA between pAR and nAR? If > > something > > > else is used it must provide privacy (encryption), authentication, > > replay protection, etc. > > > Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? > > => Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, > a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will > be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport protocol for CTP). > > Hesham > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 15:02:02 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29888 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HIFPH12798 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:15:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SKoL-00027F-9Y for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:04:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28880 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKm5-0002Np-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:01:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SKm5-0002Nm-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:01:41 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HDi1a29590; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:44:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HDhCm29563 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:43:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15517 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:43:10 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SGhi-0007AH-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:40:54 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SGhh-0007AE-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:40:53 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5HDh8925943 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:08 +0300 Received: from esebe002.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.17]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:08 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:08 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:07 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: question to Pekka S. on CTP Thread-Index: AcM0xxvILyTFjP6fTumw2wWA1/3YAAADyHFg To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 13:43:08.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[63087450:01C334D6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HDhCm29565 Subject: [Seamoby] RE: question to Pekka S. on CTP Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Pekka, > I think experimental (compared to standards track) may be a very good > choice here, and very reasonable. > > But regardless of that, I think it's important (and I think you'll > probably agree) to at least try to paint some picture about deployment > restrictions very early (in abstract, special section or introduction), so > people don't have too many fantastic notions about the applicability (and > when starting to read the document, think like "what are these guys > doing? you can't solve the generic problem with this". > > So, personally I think it might be a good idea to focus first *with > sufficiently verbose text early on* on the "context transfer inside one > ISP" -problem, and see whether it gives you sufficient sufficient benefits > and the protocol can be deployed. > > The next phase, to be done later (prior to going to PS, at the latest), > could be figuring how how to establish security associations in context > transfers between ISP's, and how to enhance the context > transfer triggers. > > An alternative method, of course, might be to try to work on -- at least > in some fashion -- the inter-ISP cases right now too, to get better > experimental data (when CTP gets implemented and piloted) on that for > later, to see how well the current protocol works in this > scenario (might > save redesigning later on if inter-ISP context transfers or > other stuff > required for real deployments are deemed necessary). > > I see two paths, but I can't really say which is the best. Both have > their tradeoffs. Got it. At least it points to the fact we need more 'context' in the draft to help the reader understand what we are trying to do. thanks, JOhn _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 15:23:47 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06003 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HJNHN11100 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:23:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SLCH-00048Y-1G for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:28:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA01327 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SLA1-0002xo-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:26:25 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SLA0-0002xl-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:26:24 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAV2a14836; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:31:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HAUOm14784 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:30:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA06022 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:30:20 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDh7-0004hC-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:05 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDh6-0004h9-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:05 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5HAUKa18159 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:30:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:30:19 +0300 Received: from esebe014.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.53]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:30:19 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe014.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:30:15 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:30:13 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response Thread-Index: AcM0g7seZvqvnhcpT7G1U9EDqvEdXQAN5isA To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 10:30:15.0521 (UTC) FILETIME=[70F61510:01C334BB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HAUOm14785 Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rajeev, From your response, I am unsure what your position is on Julien's comments. Do you feel a CTAR response is needed, possibly useful or not needed? thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 17 June, 2003 00:26 > To: Julien Bournelle > Cc: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki); motiwala@ti.com; seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the > CTAR response > > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 02:40:58PM +0300, > john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > > Yusef & Julien, > > > > > > Could you supply some text? > > > > I guess that you mean a text to add in the draft, if I'm > not wrong, this > > is some comments/questions to clarify: > > > > 1/ in part 2/ protocol overview, we have the text: > > > > "Recall that the MN always sends CTAR message to nAR regardless of > > whether it sent the CTAR message to pAR. The reason for > this is that > > there is no means for the MN to ascertain that context transfer > > reliably took place. By always sending the CTAR message > to nAR, the > > Context Transfer Request (see below) can be sent to pAR whenever > > necessary. > > " > > > > I guess that this text should be updated/deleted if we > introduce a new > > message in response to CTAR. > > > > > 2/ if we introduce this message, does MN always send a message to > > nAR as specified in 2.4.1 ? > > > > I think that if it sends a CTAR to pAR and receives a > response before > > the handover takes place, this is not necessary. > > > > No. You still need it. How does nAR know that the legitimate > MN has attached and is requesting the contexts? Even if the MN > has received some sort of notification that the CT has taken place, > the nAR needs to verify that the auth-token matcges before making > the contexts available. > > -Rajeev > > > > > > 3/ how do we call this message ? > > Maybe "Context Transfer Activate Answer (CTAA)" because use > of "Reply" > > could be confusing :-) > > > > 4/ What does this message must content ? > > > > - MN's Previous Co@ ? > > > > - OverallStatus Ctx-1 Status ...like in CTDR ? > > > > - An authentication Token ? > > > > - Optionnal data in response to a specific extension (e.g. > IPsec/QoS..) > > > > 5/ For the optionnal data, how do we "format" them ? > > > > 6/ Others ? > > > > -- > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 16:52:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10962 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HKq4Q05891 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:52:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNQy-0001Ww-Ds for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:52:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10947 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNOj-0004yp-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:49:45 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNOi-0004ym-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:49:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNQu-0001WV-EO; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:52:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNQq-0001WI-NS for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:51:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10944 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNOb-0004yj-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:49:37 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNOa-0004yb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:49:36 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id NAA08598; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5HKpGf09783; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:51:16 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306172051> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdl1AffD; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:51:14 PDT Message-ID: <3EEF7F42.B50C4926@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:51:14 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com CC: Julien.Bournelle@int-evry.fr, motiwala@ti.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, my position is that regardless of whether a response to CTAR is received or not, the MN needs to always send CTAR upon attaching to nAR (for reasons specified below in my response). Regards, -Rajeev john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Rajeev, > > >From your response, I am unsure what your position is on Julien's > comments. Do you feel a CTAR response is needed, possibly > useful or not needed? > > thanks, > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > > Sent: 17 June, 2003 00:26 > > To: Julien Bournelle > > Cc: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki); motiwala@ti.com; seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the > > CTAR response > > > > > > Julien Bournelle wrote: > > > > > hi all, > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 02:40:58PM +0300, > > john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > > > Yusef & Julien, > > > > > > > > Could you supply some text? > > > > > > I guess that you mean a text to add in the draft, if I'm > > not wrong, this > > > is some comments/questions to clarify: > > > > > > 1/ in part 2/ protocol overview, we have the text: > > > > > > "Recall that the MN always sends CTAR message to nAR regardless of > > > whether it sent the CTAR message to pAR. The reason for > > this is that > > > there is no means for the MN to ascertain that context transfer > > > reliably took place. By always sending the CTAR message > > to nAR, the > > > Context Transfer Request (see below) can be sent to pAR whenever > > > necessary. > > > " > > > > > > I guess that this text should be updated/deleted if we > > introduce a new > > > message in response to CTAR. > > > > > > > > 2/ if we introduce this message, does MN always send a message to > > > nAR as specified in 2.4.1 ? > > > > > > I think that if it sends a CTAR to pAR and receives a > > response before > > > the handover takes place, this is not necessary. > > > > > > > No. You still need it. How does nAR know that the legitimate > > MN has attached and is requesting the contexts? Even if the MN > > has received some sort of notification that the CT has taken place, > > the nAR needs to verify that the auth-token matcges before making > > the contexts available. > > > > -Rajeev > > > > > > > > > > 3/ how do we call this message ? > > > Maybe "Context Transfer Activate Answer (CTAA)" because use > > of "Reply" > > > could be confusing :-) > > > > > > 4/ What does this message must content ? > > > > > > - MN's Previous Co@ ? > > > > > > - OverallStatus Ctx-1 Status ...like in CTDR ? > > > > > > - An authentication Token ? > > > > > > - Optionnal data in response to a specific extension (e.g. > > IPsec/QoS..) > > > > > > 5/ For the optionnal data, how do we "format" them ? > > > > > > 6/ Others ? > > > > > > -- > > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 08:46:33 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01242 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ICk4h29104 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:46:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ScKC-0007ZL-JQ for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:46:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01210 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScHw-00036G-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:43:44 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScHv-00036C-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:43:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ScK9-0007Yc-LF; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:46:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ScJZ-0007Xn-NK for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:45:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA01126; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:45:21 -0400 (EDT) From: phil.neumiller@convergys.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScHG-00034G-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:43:02 -0400 Received: from cvgmx1.convergys.com ([63.210.255.12] ident=mirapoint) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScHF-00033v-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:43:01 -0400 Received: from nd.convergys.com (cvgsmtp1.cbis.com [155.90.14.35]) by cvgmx1.convergys.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with ESMTP id ALZ67724; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP To: "James Kempf" Cc: "Soliman Hesham" , john.loughney@nokia.com, "Paine, Richard H" , seamoby@ietf.org, seamoby-admin@ietf.org, "Henderson, Thomas R" X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:44:57 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CVGSMTP1/SRVR/CVG(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 06/18/2003 08:44:36 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , When I took a peak at the DIAMETER base protocol draft, I noticed that TLS is suggest for inter-domain security and IPsec for intra-domain security. It has occurred to me that CTP could occur either within or between administrative domains. Now, in the future, it may be necessary to involve DIAMETER in the CTP protocol, so perhaps it would be best to pattern SeaMoby CT after DIAMETER SAs? Eventually, maybe the same SA can be reused by both??? Just a stray thought... -Phil -- "NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be corrected." _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 09:39:07 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06425 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IDcdk04699 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Sctz-0000SY-MY for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:23:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05660 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Scrf-0004T5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Scrf-0004T2-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SckH-00007k-0T; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:13:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SccY-00085s-UZ for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:05:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03805; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:05:00 -0400 (EDT) From: phil.neumiller@convergys.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScaH-0003rA-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:02:41 -0400 Received: from cvgmx1.convergys.com ([63.210.255.12] ident=mirapoint) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ScaH-0003r4-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:02:41 -0400 Received: from nd.convergys.com (cvgsmtp1.cbis.com [155.90.14.35]) by cvgmx1.convergys.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 2.9.3.2) with ESMTP id ALZ70002; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP To: "Soliman Hesham" , john.loughney@nokia.com, "James Kempf" , "Paine, Richard H" , seamoby@ietf.org, seamoby-admin@ietf.org, "Henderson, Thomas R" X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:04:18 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CVGSMTP1/SRVR/CVG(Release 5.0.11 |July 24, 2002) at 06/18/2003 09:03:55 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , just another random thought.... Should the SA between pAR and nAR be optionally longer lived? I could see where an SCPT association could be useful and allow multiple independent CT streams between the pAR and nAR. Once you went through the pain of setting up the SA, it might be useful to keep it up on a idle timer until the "border crossings" stop. Thanks, Phil -- "NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic mail transmission is intended by Convergys Corporation for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by telephone (collect), so that the sender's address records can be corrected." _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 11:31:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12704 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IFVM628170 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:31:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SeTI-0005ww-8r for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:03:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11185 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeR0-0005UP-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:14 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeR0-0005UM-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SdjF-0003Eu-2A; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:16:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HASjm14644 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA05983 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDfW-0004gs-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:26:26 -0400 Received: from lists.cafe-seed.net ([194.100.13.106] helo=cafe-seed.net) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SDfV-0004gh-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:26:25 -0400 Received: (qmail 10891 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2003 10:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helsinki) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Jun 2003 10:28:05 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain To: seamoby@ietf.org From: John Loughney Reply-To: Seamoby CTP Issues Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:28:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1055845684.95.0.875479924871.issue@danforsberg.info> X-Roundup-Name: Seamoby CTP Issues X-Roundup-Loop: hello Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5HASjm14645 Subject: [Seamoby] [issue3] Specifying IPsec between ARs Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New submission from John Loughney : John said: Do folks think that mandatory IPsec is reasonable here? Hesham Said: Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the transport protocol for CTP). ---------- category: Technical document: draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-xx.txt messages: 3 nosy: jloughney, seamoby priority: Should Fix status: Pending title: Specifying IPsec between ARs __________________________________________________________ Seamoby CTP Issues http://danforsberg.info:8080/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp/issue3 __________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 11:31:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12707 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IFVNs28204 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:31:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SeTw-000606-HO for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:04:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11212 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeRf-0005V8-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:55 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeRe-0005V5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SdjF-0003F2-Do; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:16:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HBIPm18578 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:18:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07093 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SERb-0004xw-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:16:07 -0400 Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SERa-0004xj-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:16:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5HBHjO28941; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:17:45 +0300 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:17:45 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: john.loughney@nokia.com cc: kempf@docomolabs-usa.com, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Seamoby] Re: question to Pekka S. on CTP Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Before I dig into your comments, I have a quick question to you. > You have the following substantial comments: > > ========== > > substantial > ----------- > > - first thought: "state is evil, distributed state is even more evil." I > think it must be *very* clear exactly what state should be transferred and > what are the real benefits of that related to the time it would take to > re-establish the state -- and whether the state transfers can be made to > work ok. Otherwise you can just wait pushback from IESG/IAB.. :-) > > - spell out deployment restrictions of nAR + pAR for sharing security > associations; e.g. same ISP's network? does MN/nAR/pAR somehow have to > discover whether CT makes sense (e.g. when MN moves to some really foreign > network, no use even trying to do CT's)? > > =========== > > I agree that the text needs to be improved, but how high of a barrier > do you see that is needed to be achieved. One thing that was missed > in the last update is to classify this as experimental. I think part > of the point of going experimental was to allow some deployment > & experiments to get a better handle on your concerns above. Do you > think this is reasonable? I think experimental (compared to standards track) may be a very good choice here, and very reasonable. But regardless of that, I think it's important (and I think you'll probably agree) to at least try to paint some picture about deployment restrictions very early (in abstract, special section or introduction), so people don't have too many fantastic notions about the applicability (and when starting to read the document, think like "what are these guys doing? you can't solve the generic problem with this". So, personally I think it might be a good idea to focus first *with sufficiently verbose text early on* on the "context transfer inside one ISP" -problem, and see whether it gives you sufficient sufficient benefits and the protocol can be deployed. The next phase, to be done later (prior to going to PS, at the latest), could be figuring how how to establish security associations in context transfers between ISP's, and how to enhance the context transfer triggers. An alternative method, of course, might be to try to work on -- at least in some fashion -- the inter-ISP cases right now too, to get better experimental data (when CTP gets implemented and piloted) on that for later, to see how well the current protocol works in this scenario (might save redesigning later on if inter-ISP context transfers or other stuff required for real deployments are deemed necessary). I see two paths, but I can't really say which is the best. Both have their tradeoffs. Hope this helps.. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 12:30:40 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15284 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IGUCC07026 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:30:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SfLc-0000K5-2B for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:59:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14311 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SfJL-0006G0-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:57:23 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SfJL-0006Fx-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:57:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Seo4-00077g-W0; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:25:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SeLj-0005a4-Bo for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:55:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA10937; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:55:43 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeJR-0005QI-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:53:25 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeJQ-0005QE-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:53:24 -0400 Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5IEte922510; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:55:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:55:38 +0300 Received: from esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.30]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:55:39 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:55:39 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:55:38 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcM1l3XWA5/tgVnuQRy0+EmZ9YcM7AAEhcXg To: , Cc: , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2003 14:55:39.0619 (UTC) FILETIME=[AEE05B30:01C335A9] Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id MAA15284 Hi Phil, > When I took a peak at the DIAMETER base protocol draft, I noticed that > TLS is suggest for inter-domain security and IPsec for intra-domain > security. It has occurred to me that CTP could occur either within or > between administrative domains. Now, in the future, it may be necessary > to involve DIAMETER in the CTP protocol, so perhaps it would be > best to pattern SeaMoby CT after DIAMETER SAs? Eventually, > maybe the same SA can be reused by both??? Just a stray thought... I think that you could consider that an AR has a Diameter connection towards a AAA server. However, as CTP is specified to run over UDP, TLS is not an option. John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 13:08:04 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16522 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IH7bZ12602 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SfXK-0000zX-Na for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:11:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14672 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SfV3-0006K3-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:09:30 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SfV3-0006K0-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:09:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Seuo-0007R1-6Y; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:32:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SeQv-0005qm-5K for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11091; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeOd-0005Si-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:58:47 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SeOc-0005Sf-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:58:46 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5IF14a20435; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:01:04 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:01:04 +0300 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:01:03 +0300 Received: from esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.30]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:01:02 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:00:42 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:00:42 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Some comments on CTP Thread-Index: AcM1mpjcpUsaR2T0ReC0EXulzTIKYAAD6JYg To: , , , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2003 15:00:43.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[63C76430:01C335AA] Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id NAA16522 Hi Phil, > just another random thought.... Should the SA between pAR and nAR be optionally > longer lived? I could see where an SCPT association could be useful and > allow multiple independent CT streams between the pAR and nAR. Once you went > through the pain of setting up the SA, it might be useful to keep it up on > a idle timer until the "border crossings" stop. Having pre-established SAs between ARs would be reasonable, but I think this would be something to actually test, so I hesitate to put anything in the draft with regards to this. John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 20 15:05:54 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29069 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5KJ5QI17308 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19TRCQ-0004V5-OK for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28977 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19TRCN-00015F-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:23 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19TRCM-000159-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19TRC1-0004US-B3; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:05:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19TRBn-0004U1-Vv for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:04:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28849 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19TRBl-00013B-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:04:45 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19TRBk-00012h-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:04:44 -0400 Message-ID: <033b01c3375e$0add13a0$476015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:59:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id PAA29069 Don't remember if I forwarded these or not. Antti is co-lead for the Linux MIPL implementation. He is also a member of the Seamoby CT review board. jak ----------------------------------- I-D: draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt Review comments --------------- 1. IPv4 and/or IPv6? The draft does not say if this protocol is to be used with IPv4, IPv6, or both. Of course, from the FMIPv6 references and 32 bit address fields one can assume that it can be used with both. You could state this explicitly, and in message format description, indicate that address fields may be 32 or 128 bits long. There is also the question of having separate message type numbers for IPv4 and IPv6. If this is IPv4 only, then some later comments may not hold. 2. Security Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all the entities. 3. CTAR format and use Section 2. paragraph 6 says: "The CTAR nessage, described in Section 2.4.1, provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of MN on pAR" whereas 2.4.1 says CTAR message has pAR address rather than nAR. Later it is said: "It also includes the MN's new IP address (valid on nAR)". Where does it include this? I can't find a field for new CoA for MN in the CTAR. I assume the text in section 2. paragraph 6 "provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of MN on pAR" is wrong. MN's IP on pAR is not carried in the message, only in the IP header. It would be clearer, if 2.4.1 would call Mobile Node's Previous IP Address as Mobile Node's (previous/new) Care-of Address, Previous Router IP Address as (previous/new) Access Router Address, and describe the use of these fields in both CTAR to pAR and to nAR cases. I would recommend adding an example signaling flow for the CTAR to pAR case, and perhaps take out 5.4 diagram, since I don't understand why nAR would do 5.4 instead of 5.3. As Basavaraj already noted, there should be descriptions for each field in the message format description. Makes implementor's life much easier. 4. Use of MN's new care-of address If MN's new care-of address is included in CTAR or CTD before it is assigned on the MN, nAR must defend new CoA (at least for IPv6 DAD) until MN claims it. Should this requirement be stated? Or can the new CoA only be used in CTAR or CTD if it is already assigned to the MN? If so, then it should be clearly stated. 5. Generic message header Section 2.4 describes a generic message header format. Why is this broken in 2.4.2? 64 bit alignment? With IPv4, it probably buys you nothing. When using IPv6 addresses, the 64bit alignment is screwed anyway for all other messages than CTD. 6. Optional fields and alignment In CDB (2.3) and CTD (2.4.2), there are optional fields in the message format. Section 2.3 says that Presence Vector field is not present ("length of the context data block is ... plus 4 bytes if the 'V' bit is set") if 'V' bit is not set. However, 2.4.2 does not clearly state if Mobile Node's New Care-of Address field, should be present if 'C' bit is not set. Having the 'C' bit does suggest that it is not present. Also, Section 2.4.2 says "The Authorization token type field is present in the predictive scenario only." I guess Type=Auth is the Authorization token type, you should use Type=Auth-Token as in 2.4.1. Does it mean that Type=Auth field is not present or it is zero (or some other undefined value)? Further, if Key or Context Data Block is not multiple of 32 bits (or Type=Auth is not present), CDBs will not start at 32 bit boundary. If alignment is desired, you must have padding or force the 32 bit alignment on the key and CDB. 7. CTAR relay Section 5.4 says "routing details later". Can't find them. 8. Typos Section 6: s/MSUT/MUST/ Section 2.4 paragraph 2: s/unambigously/unambiguously/ Author's Addresses (shouldn't it be Authors') s/Itdmerenkatu/Itämerenkatu/ or s/Itdmerenkatu/Itamerenkatu/ (it's 'a' with umlaut) Nit :) _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 21 02:47:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03350 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5L6l4l01321 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Tc9Q-0000LE-I5 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03328 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Tc9M-0006LG-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Tc9M-0006LD-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Tc9N-0000KK-RO; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:47:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Tc91-0000Ir-2Q for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:46:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03320 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:46:35 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Tc8x-0006L8-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:46:35 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Tc8w-0006L5-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:46:34 -0400 Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5L6kY928966 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:31 +0300 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:34 +0300 Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:34 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:33 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:46:33 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft Thread-Index: AcM3X2QS76qIZXjZTbqP+H2ai7Jb9QAYWvfw To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2003 06:46:33.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA9767F0:01C337C0] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, Thanks - I'll add this to the issue tracker on Monday. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 20 June, 2003 21:59 > To: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft >=20 >=20 > Don't remember if I forwarded these or not. Antti is co-lead=20 > for the Linux > MIPL implementation. He is also a member of the Seamoby CT=20 > review board. >=20 > jak >=20 > ----------------------------------- >=20 > I-D: draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt >=20 > Review comments > --------------- >=20 > 1. IPv4 and/or IPv6? >=20 > The draft does not say if this protocol is to be used with IPv4, > IPv6, or both. Of course, from the FMIPv6 references and 32 bit > address fields one can assume that it can be used with both. You > could state this explicitly, and in message format description, > indicate that address fields may be 32 or 128 bits long. There is > also the question of having separate message type numbers for IPv4 > and IPv6. If this is IPv4 only, then some later comments may not > hold. >=20 > 2. Security >=20 > Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel > for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and > (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say > "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header > (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give > confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to > use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 > uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all > the entities. >=20 > 3. CTAR format and use >=20 > Section 2. paragraph 6 says: "The CTAR nessage, described in > Section 2.4.1, provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of MN > on pAR" whereas 2.4.1 says CTAR message has pAR address rather than > nAR. Later it is said: "It also includes the MN's new IP address > (valid on nAR)". Where does it include this? I can't find a field > for new CoA for MN in the CTAR. I assume the text in section > 2. paragraph 6 "provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of > MN on pAR" is wrong. MN's IP on pAR is not carried in the message, > only in the IP header. >=20 > It would be clearer, if 2.4.1 would call Mobile Node's Previous IP > Address as Mobile Node's (previous/new) Care-of Address, Previous > Router IP Address as (previous/new) Access Router Address, and > describe the use of these fields in both CTAR to pAR and to nAR > cases. >=20 > I would recommend adding an example signaling flow for the CTAR to > pAR case, and perhaps take out 5.4 diagram, since I don't > understand why nAR would do 5.4 instead of 5.3. >=20 > As Basavaraj already noted, there should be descriptions for each > field in the message format description. Makes implementor's life > much easier. >=20 > 4. Use of MN's new care-of address >=20 > If MN's new care-of address is included in CTAR or CTD before it is > assigned on the MN, nAR must defend new CoA (at least for IPv6 DAD) > until MN claims it. Should this requirement be stated? Or can the > new CoA only be used in CTAR or CTD if it is already assigned to > the MN? If so, then it should be clearly stated. >=20 > 5. Generic message header >=20 > Section 2.4 describes a generic message header format. Why is this > broken in 2.4.2? 64 bit alignment? With IPv4, it probably buys > you nothing. When using IPv6 addresses, the 64bit alignment is > screwed anyway for all other messages than CTD. >=20 > 6. Optional fields and alignment >=20 > In CDB (2.3) and CTD (2.4.2), there are optional fields in the > message format. Section 2.3 says that Presence Vector field is not > present ("length of the context data block is ... plus 4 bytes if > the 'V' bit is set") if 'V' bit is not set. However, 2.4.2 does > not clearly state if Mobile Node's New Care-of Address field, > should be present if 'C' bit is not set. Having the 'C' bit does > suggest that it is not present. Also, Section 2.4.2 says "The > Authorization token type field is present in the predictive > scenario only." I guess Type=3DAuth is the Authorization token = type, > you should use Type=3DAuth-Token as in 2.4.1. Does it mean that > Type=3DAuth field is not present or it is zero (or some other > undefined value)? Further, if Key or Context Data Block is not > multiple of 32 bits (or Type=3DAuth is not present), CDBs will not > start at 32 bit boundary. If alignment is desired, you must have > padding or force the 32 bit alignment on the key and CDB. >=20 > 7. CTAR relay >=20 > Section 5.4 says "routing details later". Can't find them. >=20 > 8. Typos >=20 > Section 6: s/MSUT/MUST/ >=20 > Section 2.4 paragraph 2: s/unambigously/unambiguously/ >=20 > Author's Addresses (shouldn't it be Authors') > s/Itdmerenkatu/It=E4merenkatu/ or s/Itdmerenkatu/Itamerenkatu/ = (it's > 'a' with umlaut) Nit :) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 23 07:42:43 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16979 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5NBgEj20408 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UPiA-0005J5-Cc for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16946 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UPi9-0001a4-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:13 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UPi4-0001Zu-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UPhx-0005ID-Ds; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UPgk-0005EJ-To for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:41:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA16860 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UPgV-0001Z3-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:40:31 -0400 Received: from herculanum.int-evry.fr ([157.159.11.15]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UPgK-0001YW-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:40:20 -0400 Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr (spartebis.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.20]) by herculanum.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8271033DE5; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:39:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpes.int-evry.fr (alpes.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.19]) by spartebis.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FAEA3F416; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sparte.int-evry.fr ([157.159.10.11]) by alpes.int-evry.fr (SAVSMTP 3.0.0.44) with SMTP id M2003062313392927158 ; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:39:29 +0200 Received: from ipv6-5.int-evry.fr (ipv6-5.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.78]) by sparte.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEFB3F416; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jb by ipv6-5.int-evry.fr with local (Exim id 19UPeC-0007wr-00; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:38:08 +0200 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:38:08 +0200 From: Julien Bournelle To: Rajeev Koodli Cc: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] [issue 2] comments/questions on the CTAR response Message-ID: <20030623113808.GX97676@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> References: <20030610132933.GW68740@ipv6-5.int-evry.fr> <3EEE35FB.9BDFBB57@iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EEE35FB.9BDFBB57@iprg.nokia.com> Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , hi, > > 2/ if we introduce this message, does MN always send a message to > > nAR as specified in 2.4.1 ? > > > > I think that if it sends a CTAR to pAR and receives a response before > > the handover takes place, this is not necessary. > > > > No. You still need it. How does nAR know that the legitimate > MN has attached and is requesting the contexts? Even if the MN > has received some sort of notification that the CT has taken place, > the nAR needs to verify that the auth-token matcges before making > the contexts available. you're right, in this case I have a question: Is the CTAR message (sent by MN to nAR) still contain Requested Context Type ? > > -Rajeev > > > > > > 3/ how do we call this message ? > > Maybe "Context Transfer Activate Answer (CTAA)" because use of "Reply" > > could be confusing :-) > > > > 4/ What does this message must content ? > > > > - MN's Previous Co@ ? > > > > - OverallStatus Ctx-1 Status ...like in CTDR ? > > > > - An authentication Token ? > > > > - Optionnal data in response to a specific extension (e.g. IPsec/QoS..) > > > > 5/ For the optionnal data, how do we "format" them ? > > > > 6/ Others ? > > > > -- > > julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > -- julien.bournelle@int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 24 08:01:45 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12885 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5OC1Gc30085 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UmU8-0007pA-KJ for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12834 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UmU7-0002R2-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:15 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UmU1-0002Qv-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UmTt-0007oL-Au; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:01:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UmTr-0007ny-CJ for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:00:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12807 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UmTq-0002Qn-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:00:58 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19UmTf-0002Qh-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:00:47 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5OC0Pa26273 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:00:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:00:24 +0300 Received: from esebe008.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.48]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:00:24 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe008.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:00:24 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:00:23 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Comments from Antti Tuomin on CT Draft Thread-Index: AcM3X2QS76qIZXjZTbqP+H2ai7Jb9QC5kF5Q To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2003 12:00:24.0487 (UTC) FILETIME=[31D90B70:01C33A48] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, My replies. > 1. IPv4 and/or IPv6? >=20 > The draft does not say if this protocol is to be used with IPv4, > IPv6, or both. Of course, from the FMIPv6 references and 32 bit > address fields one can assume that it can be used with both. You > could state this explicitly, and in message format description, > indicate that address fields may be 32 or 128 bits long. There is > also the question of having separate message type numbers for IPv4 > and IPv6. If this is IPv4 only, then some later comments may not > hold. Both should be possible - assigned issue 9. > 2. Security >=20 > Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel > for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and > (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say > "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header > (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give > confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to > use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 > uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all > the entities. Text suggest seems reasonable - assigned issue 10. > 3. CTAR format and use >=20 > Section 2. paragraph 6 says: "The CTAR nessage, described in > Section 2.4.1, provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of MN > on pAR" whereas 2.4.1 says CTAR message has pAR address rather than > nAR. Later it is said: "It also includes the MN's new IP address > (valid on nAR)". Where does it include this? I can't find a field > for new CoA for MN in the CTAR. I assume the text in section > 2. paragraph 6 "provides the IP address of nAR, the IP address of > MN on pAR" is wrong. MN's IP on pAR is not carried in the message, > only in the IP header. >=20 > It would be clearer, if 2.4.1 would call Mobile Node's Previous IP > Address as Mobile Node's (previous/new) Care-of Address, Previous > Router IP Address as (previous/new) Access Router Address, and > describe the use of these fields in both CTAR to pAR and to nAR > cases. >=20 > I would recommend adding an example signaling flow for the CTAR to > pAR case, and perhaps take out 5.4 diagram, since I don't > understand why nAR would do 5.4 instead of 5.3. >=20 > As Basavaraj already noted, there should be descriptions for each > field in the message format description. Makes implementor's life > much easier. -> resolution, suggestion seems reasonable, will update text. Assigned = issue 11. > 4. Use of MN's new care-of address >=20 > If MN's new care-of address is included in CTAR or CTD before it is > assigned on the MN, nAR must defend new CoA (at least for IPv6 DAD) > until MN claims it. Should this requirement be stated? Or can the > new CoA only be used in CTAR or CTD if it is already assigned to > the MN? If so, then it should be clearly stated. Good question - I don't have an answer - assigned issue 12. > 5. Generic message header >=20 > Section 2.4 describes a generic message header format. Why is this > broken in 2.4.2? 64 bit alignment? With IPv4, it probably buys > you nothing. When using IPv6 addresses, the 64bit alignment is > screwed anyway for all other messages than CTD. Agreed, will fix. Assigned issue 13. =09 > 6. Optional fields and alignment >=20 > In CDB (2.3) and CTD (2.4.2), there are optional fields in the > message format. Section 2.3 says that Presence Vector field is not > present ("length of the context data block is ... plus 4 bytes if > the 'V' bit is set") if 'V' bit is not set. However, 2.4.2 does > not clearly state if Mobile Node's New Care-of Address field, > should be present if 'C' bit is not set. Having the 'C' bit does > suggest that it is not present. Also, Section 2.4.2 says "The > Authorization token type field is present in the predictive > scenario only." I guess Type=3DAuth is the Authorization token = type, > you should use Type=3DAuth-Token as in 2.4.1. Does it mean that > Type=3DAuth field is not present or it is zero (or some other > undefined value)? Further, if Key or Context Data Block is not > multiple of 32 bits (or Type=3DAuth is not present), CDBs will not > start at 32 bit boundary. If alignment is desired, you must have > padding or force the 32 bit alignment on the key and CDB. Proposal seems reasonable - assigned issue 14. > 7. CTAR relay >=20 > Section 5.4 says "routing details later". Can't find them. Yup, text needed. Rajeev / Charlie - do you have text for this? = Assigned issue 15. > 8. Typos >=20 > Section 6: s/MSUT/MUST/ >=20 > Section 2.4 paragraph 2: s/unambigously/unambiguously/ >=20 > Author's Addresses (shouldn't it be Authors') > s/Itdmerenkatu/It=E4merenkatu/ or s/Itdmerenkatu/Itamerenkatu/ = (it's > 'a' with umlaut) Nit :) Fixed - no need to assign an issue. thanks! John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 24 14:26:08 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00496 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5OIPfP28862 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:25:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UsU9-0007VR-69 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:25:41 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00421 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UsTV-0007UM-3O; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:25:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UsSz-0007TG-1D for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:29 -0400 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00213 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <024e01c33a7c$fabd1fc0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:18:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, As a compliment to the CT draft, Pat and I think it would be sensible to have a draft that describes how CT could be used for a particular context. In the past, Seamoby has not focussed on this, since our position has been it is up to other WGs that have responsibility for the particular feature to do the design work for that feature, but we keep getting the question "give me a concrete example of what CT would be used *for*?" We'd rather not include this in the base CT draft, because then people would think that it is required to implement that particular context when implementing the transfer protocol. So, since transfer of header compression context is the candidate easiest for people unfamiliar with CT to understand, we'd like to recommend that the WG consider the following draft for WG draft status: http://www.geocities.com/kempf42/draft-koodli-seamoby-hc-relocate-02.txt This is a draft that was originally submitted two years ago and expired. It defines a way to transfer ROHC header context between access routers. The original draft defined its own CT protocol. In this update, Manish Tiwari has agreed to act as editor and has modified the protocol to use the Seamoby CT protocol defined in draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt. The draft was submitted to the drafts editor yesterday, but after the 00 deadline. It isn't clear whether the drafts editor will consider it a 00 draft (since the original expired), in which case, the draft won't be accepted until after IETF 57, or a continuation of the original, in which case, the draft will show up in the drafts directory prior to IETF 57. In any case, we'd like to encourage people to read the draft and comment on the mailing list. Manish will discuss mailing list comments at IETF 57 and we'll see whether the WG thinks the draft is a good candidate for WG draft status. If we do decide to accept it, Pat and I (with Allison's help) will recruit some reviewers from the ROHC list to make sure the header compression details are correct. Please give the draft a good read and comment to the list. Thanx. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 02:51:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10453 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5Q6pDK29463 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VQbB-0007f3-MB for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10448 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VQb7-0006B6-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VQb2-0006B2-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VQaz-0007cS-M6; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:51:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VQa5-0007Tt-JH for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:50:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10408 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VQa1-0006Ab-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:50:01 -0400 Received: from courier.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.9.1] helo=mail.cs.helsinki.fi) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VQZq-0006AU-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:49:51 -0400 Received: from mannersaari.cs.Helsinki.FI (mannersaari.cs.helsinki.fi [::ffff:128.214.11.173]) (IDENT: jmanner, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,168bits,DES-CBC3-SHA) by mail.cs.helsinki.fi with esmtp; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:49:21 +0300 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:49:20 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka MJ Manner To: Seamoby Working Group Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good idea to have in Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. Something that tells more than RFC3374. Still, the document should talk about more than one use case, though. Jukka On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Hi James > > I support this idea. Actually, it simplifies the CTP document, > I have an open issue (not logged) to provide more of this kind of > detail to CTP. If this is in a seperate doc, it simplifies things > greatly. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > > Sent: 24 June, 2003 21:18 > > To: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft > > > > > > Folks, > > > > As a compliment to the CT draft, Pat and I think it would be > > sensible to > > have a draft that describes how CT could be used for a > > particular context. > > In the past, Seamoby has not focussed on this, since our > > position has been > > it is up to other WGs that have responsibility for the > > particular feature to > > do the design work for that feature, but we keep getting the > > question "give > > me a concrete example of what CT would be used *for*?" We'd rather not > > include this in the base CT draft, because then people would > > think that it > > is required to implement that particular context when implementing the > > transfer protocol. So, since transfer of header compression > > context is the > > candidate easiest for people unfamiliar with CT to > > understand, we'd like to > > recommend that the WG consider the following draft for WG > > draft status: > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kempf42/draft-koodli-seamoby-hc-reloc > > ate-02.txt > > > > This is a draft that was originally submitted two years ago > > and expired. It > > defines a way to transfer ROHC header context between access > > routers. The > > original draft defined its own CT protocol. In this update, > > Manish Tiwari > > has agreed to act as editor and has modified the protocol to > > use the Seamoby > > CT protocol defined in draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt. > > > > The draft was submitted to the drafts editor yesterday, but > > after the 00 > > deadline. It isn't clear whether the drafts editor will > > consider it a 00 > > draft (since the original expired), in which case, the draft won't be > > accepted until after IETF 57, or a continuation of the > > original, in which > > case, the draft will show up in the drafts directory prior to > > IETF 57. In > > any case, we'd like to encourage people to read the draft and > > comment on the > > mailing list. Manish will discuss mailing list comments at > > IETF 57 and we'll > > see whether the WG thinks the draft is a good candidate for > > WG draft status. > > If we do decide to accept it, Pat and I (with Allison's help) > > will recruit > > some reviewers from the ROHC list to make sure the header compression > > details are correct. > > > > Please give the draft a good read and comment to the list. Thanx. > > > > jak > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 11:15:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01071 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QFEX503070 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:14:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VYSH-0000nR-0w for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:14:33 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01046 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VYRl-0000kq-4q; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:14:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VYN8-0008IM-F2 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:09:14 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00204; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200306261509.LAA00204@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: seamoby@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:09:09 -0400 Subject: [Seamoby] I-D ACTION:draft-lach-nac-00.txt Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Network Access Co-ordination to Complement IP Mobility Protocols Author(s) : H. Lach, M. Catalina-Gallego Filename : draft-lach-nac-00.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2003-6-26 This draft addresses the need to complement the IP mobility protocols with respect to the co-ordination of a mobile node's network access. The concept of Network Access Agent (NAA) is introduced as a functional entity in the network to assist the mobile node's IP handoff strategy. The Network Access Co-ordination Protocol (NACP) is proposed as an interaction mechanism between the NAA and the mobile node, so that the NAA can provide valuable information and recommendations to the mobile node to consider in IP handoff. The NACP is conceived so that it is completely independent of the Mobile IP protocols. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lach-nac-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-lach-nac-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-lach-nac-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-6-26100603.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-lach-nac-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-lach-nac-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-6-26100603.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 12:04:06 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06411 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QG3dQ17425 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VZDn-0004Wy-Gv for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:39 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06384 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VZDB-0004T5-5h; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:03:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VZCJ-0004HY-9M for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:02:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06276 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VZCH-0003JJ-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:02:05 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VZC6-0003Ix-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:01:55 -0400 Message-ID: <00d701c33bfb$6f082260$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: "Jukka MJ Manner" , "Seamoby Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:55:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jukka > I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good idea to have in > Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. Something that tells > more than RFC3374. I took a very quick look at draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though, since the intent is to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think such a document is needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header compression CT draft is to provide a concrete example of real value that would come out of CT, since some people (and in particular some IESG members and some members of the Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide assumes that people already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily about how to use it. What do other people think? >Still, the document should talk about more than one use > case, though. > I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that specifications for multiple different kinds of contexts should be included into one draft? If yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say, interested in implementing context transfer for header compression, why should I have to wade through a document that describes context transfer for AAA, and IPsec, and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better in IETF, and they are also easier to review and achieve concensus on approval. Although we want the header compression CT document as a concrete example, it will also serve as the (experimental) reference specification for implementing a header compression context and will be used for that purpose. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 14:46:50 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14388 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5PFfNh15901 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:41:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VCOc-00046l-O0 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:41:18 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16680 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VCNh-0003ne-HG; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:40:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VBy6-00089b-9u for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:13:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03297 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:44:54 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19V41V-0002Qa-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:44:53 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19V41K-0002QV-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:44:43 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5P6iIa27241 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:18 +0300 Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:18 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:17 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:17 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Thread-Index: AcM6fmqd5nfAH7J6Thqvdf7hdKR79wAZC8qw To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2003 06:44:17.0637 (UTC) FILETIME=[33232950:01C33AE5] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James I support this idea. Actually, it simplifies the CTP document, I have an open issue (not logged) to provide more of this kind of detail to CTP. If this is in a seperate doc, it simplifies things greatly. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 24 June, 2003 21:18 > To: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft >=20 >=20 > Folks, >=20 > As a compliment to the CT draft, Pat and I think it would be=20 > sensible to > have a draft that describes how CT could be used for a=20 > particular context. > In the past, Seamoby has not focussed on this, since our=20 > position has been > it is up to other WGs that have responsibility for the=20 > particular feature to > do the design work for that feature, but we keep getting the=20 > question "give > me a concrete example of what CT would be used *for*?" We'd rather not > include this in the base CT draft, because then people would=20 > think that it > is required to implement that particular context when implementing the > transfer protocol. So, since transfer of header compression=20 > context is the > candidate easiest for people unfamiliar with CT to=20 > understand, we'd like to > recommend that the WG consider the following draft for WG=20 > draft status: >=20 > =20 > http://www.geocities.com/kempf42/draft-koodli-seamoby-hc-reloc > ate-02.txt >=20 > This is a draft that was originally submitted two years ago=20 > and expired. It > defines a way to transfer ROHC header context between access=20 > routers. The > original draft defined its own CT protocol. In this update,=20 > Manish Tiwari > has agreed to act as editor and has modified the protocol to=20 > use the Seamoby > CT protocol defined in draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp-02.txt. >=20 > The draft was submitted to the drafts editor yesterday, but=20 > after the 00 > deadline. It isn't clear whether the drafts editor will=20 > consider it a 00 > draft (since the original expired), in which case, the draft won't be > accepted until after IETF 57, or a continuation of the=20 > original, in which > case, the draft will show up in the drafts directory prior to=20 > IETF 57. In > any case, we'd like to encourage people to read the draft and=20 > comment on the > mailing list. Manish will discuss mailing list comments at=20 > IETF 57 and we'll > see whether the WG thinks the draft is a good candidate for=20 > WG draft status. > If we do decide to accept it, Pat and I (with Allison's help)=20 > will recruit > some reviewers from the ROHC list to make sure the header compression > details are correct. >=20 > Please give the draft a good read and comment to the list. Thanx. >=20 > jak >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 17:10:02 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21869 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QL9Zx00340 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:09:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vdzr-00005P-6x for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:09:35 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21835 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VdzK-0008Nd-7M; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:09:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vdz9-0008NF-MT for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:08:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21783 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vdz7-00063d-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:08:49 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vdyw-00062A-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:08:38 -0400 Message-ID: <030d01c33c25$eaba72d0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:00:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Issue 2 questions why there is no CTAR Response. I think this issue is related to Section 4, Open Issues, in which the only open issue is failure handling. The current protocol has no way for the MN to know whether or not the context transfer (and thus the handover) succeeded. In some cases, an application, like AAA, on the MN might have to run the protocol from scratch in order to re-establish the context. In other cases, like header compression, the context would get reestablished automatically as packets showed up at the router/MN with full IPv6 headers. So, I think there is a need for a CTARR to tell the MN whether or not the CT. Comments? jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 17:22:48 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22404 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QLMLN07481 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeCD-0001wa-FH for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22363 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeCB-00068b-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeC5-00068Q-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeBs-0001v8-Ms; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:22:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeBR-0001tu-Pt for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:21:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22308 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeBP-000687-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:21:31 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeBE-000683-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:21:20 -0400 Message-ID: <031301c33c28$21e0b9c0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:15:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last paragraph of Section 5.4, it says that CTAR Relay routes to PAR, but the routing details are given later. Is CTAR Relay really necessary? Isn't it sufficient to either a) send CTAR to NAR (as currently) or b) send CTAR to PAR? Note: FMIP has chosen to do b), why does CTP do a) instead? I'm especially curious because the CTP and FMIP drafts share an author and one of the authors on the CTP draft was on the original FMIP design team, which would have suggested to me more consistency in the basic architecture between the two protocols. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 17:29:33 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22786 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QLT7p13480 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeIk-0003V1-Um for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22766 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeIi-0006EK-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeId-0006EH-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:28:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeIe-0003Ho-RF; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:29:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeHn-0003HJ-2q for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:28:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22734 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeHk-0006DT-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:28:04 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeHU-0006Al-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:27:48 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA25853; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5QLOnb19496; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:24:49 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306262124> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdJD52Uy; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:24:47 PDT Message-ID: <3EFB649F.6B278E5@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:24:48 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed References: <030d01c33c25$eaba72d0$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks, For the contexts that I have thought about in detail, such a response doesn't seem clearly necessary. - For header compression, I think the response is clearly unnecessary, because the mobile node might not be able to use the information in any useful way. - For QoS, it could be that the CTAR response would not have the important information, and that the QoS protocol mechanism would be in charge of supplying the necessary error status. I tend to think that the CTAR response should say whether or not the QoS context succeeded, but we don't know this yet from NSIS. If anyone thinks the matter is clear, then maybe some discussion would help. - For buffering, I think clearly no response is needed. - For security, I think that the answer is still not clear, and it might depend on the reason why the security context could not be transferred. But I did not feel comfortable saying that we should automatically inform prospective security clients that their credentials are invalid. Perhaps the right answer is that, once a context is clearly identified as needed a CTAR response, at that time we could create the protocol message. Then, it would be a matter for the feature profile to specify whether the particular context type needed to allow for CTAR response or not. If that time arrives, then someone will have to make the further determination about whether only negative responses are needed, or whether responses are needed even for positive results. Regards, Charlie P. James Kempf wrote: > > Issue 2 questions why there is no CTAR Response. I think this issue is > related to Section 4, Open Issues, in which the only open issue is failure > handling. > > The current protocol has no way for the MN to know whether or not the > context transfer (and thus the handover) succeeded. In some cases, an > application, like AAA, on the MN might have to run the protocol from scratch > in order to re-establish the context. In other cases, like header > compression, the context would get reestablished automatically as packets > showed up at the router/MN with full IPv6 headers. > > So, I think there is a need for a CTARR to tell the MN whether or not the > CT. > > Comments? > > jak > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 17:36:34 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22964 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QLa7I14445 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VePX-0003ku-Js for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22951 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VePV-0006Gz-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VePP-0006Gw-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:35:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VePQ-0003k8-TB; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:36:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VeOt-0003jc-6O for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:35:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22943 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeOq-0006Gk-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:35:24 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeOf-0006Gh-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:35:14 -0400 Message-ID: <031901c33c2a$1224f210$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:29:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. If MN has not yet completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed and it may not be if there is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly confirm a nCoA is currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC 2462 DAD may not be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that predictive handover is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving to the new link or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new link? If so, wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? And what is the purpoe of old CoA? jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 18:09:34 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24469 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QM98e23307 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VevU-00063q-Aw for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24413 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VevR-0006UN-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VevL-0006UK-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:08:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VevM-000636-S4; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:09:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Veul-00062f-CE for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:08:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24350 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Veui-0006U6-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:08:20 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VeuS-0006Tx-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:08:04 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id PAA27879; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5QM7NT05618; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:07:23 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306262207> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdUq8fU2; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:07:22 PDT Message-ID: <3EFB6E9B.3D1795E1@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:07:23 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed References: <030d01c33c25$eaba72d0$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This could be useful during failures, depending on the particular feature context. So, a place-holder for now might be appropriate. Regards, -Rajeev James Kempf wrote: > Issue 2 questions why there is no CTAR Response. I think this issue is > related to Section 4, Open Issues, in which the only open issue is failure > handling. > > The current protocol has no way for the MN to know whether or not the > context transfer (and thus the handover) succeeded. In some cases, an > application, like AAA, on the MN might have to run the protocol from scratch > in order to re-establish the context. In other cases, like header > compression, the context would get reestablished automatically as packets > showed up at the router/MN with full IPv6 headers. > > So, I think there is a need for a CTARR to tell the MN whether or not the > CT. > > Comments? > > jak > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 18:25:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25484 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QMPCd30844 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VfB1-00080P-FR for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25469 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VfAy-0006ae-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VfAs-0006ab-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VfAs-0007yG-3n; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VfAI-0007xe-Vh for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:24:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25449 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VfAG-0006a9-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:24:24 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VfA5-0006Zx-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:24:13 -0400 Message-ID: <036d01c33c30$e1446ac0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: "Charles E. Perkins" Cc: References: <030d01c33c25$eaba72d0$636015ac@dclkempt40> <3EFB649F.6B278E5@iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:18:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Charlie, Agree on header compression and buffering. Security is a little murky: - If you mean IPsec SA context (like, for example, to secure the FMIP signaling) then I agree, but I'll note that there are some security experts that question the security of context transfer for this purpose in the first place. - If you mean basic network access authentication as provided by AAA, then I disagree. Suppose a transfer is attempted of basic authentication and it fails. How would the MN know to redo network access authentication so it could start getting routing service? One place where AAA transfer might fail is at the boundary between two administrative domains, but it could also fail for other reasons. - If you mean firewall properties (in the sense of Defcon), then I think I disagree because the MN needs to know if it must re-establish the firewall filters, otherwise it might stop receiving traffic and not know why. The assumption here is that setting up the firewall filters is a co-operative effort between the network and MN and that they are not simply installed by the network (which a variation of the Defcon assumption). For QoS, I'm not quite sure I follow your explanation. It seems like what you are saying is that a CTAR response might not have access to whether the QoS context establishment failed or not, right? But what connection does that have with NSIS? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that NSIS is simply a signaling mechanism. The success or failure of the QoS context establishment should be independent of the signaling to establish it in the first place. Or is the assumption that establishing the context after transfer goes through the same steps as the signaling protocol would? W.r.t. QoS, it seems like one would need to examine what context would be established (and here I think we are talking about Intserv kinds of context, or maybe a subset of the kind that would be involved in Intserv, like a basic bandwidth and latency allocation, since I believe Diffserv is stateless w.r.t. individual flows). jak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles E. Perkins" To: "James Kempf" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed > > Hello folks, > > For the contexts that I have thought about in detail, > such a response doesn't seem clearly necessary. > > - For header compression, I think the response is > clearly unnecessary, because the mobile node > might not be able to use the information in any > useful way. > > - For QoS, it could be that the CTAR response would > not have the important information, and that the > QoS protocol mechanism would be in charge of supplying > the necessary error status. I tend to think that > the CTAR response should say whether or not the QoS > context succeeded, but we don't know this yet from > NSIS. If anyone thinks the matter is clear, then > maybe some discussion would help. > > - For buffering, I think clearly no response is > needed. > > - For security, I think that the answer is still > not clear, and it might depend on the reason why > the security context could not be transferred. > But I did not feel comfortable saying that we > should automatically inform prospective security > clients that their credentials are invalid. > > Perhaps the right answer is that, once a context is > clearly identified as needed a CTAR response, at that > time we could create the protocol message. Then, it > would be a matter for the feature profile to specify > whether the particular context type needed to allow > for CTAR response or not. > > If that time arrives, then someone will have to make > the further determination about whether only negative > responses are needed, or whether responses are needed > even for positive results. > > Regards, > Charlie P. > > > > > James Kempf wrote: > > > > Issue 2 questions why there is no CTAR Response. I think this issue is > > related to Section 4, Open Issues, in which the only open issue is failure > > handling. > > > > The current protocol has no way for the MN to know whether or not the > > context transfer (and thus the handover) succeeded. In some cases, an > > application, like AAA, on the MN might have to run the protocol from scratch > > in order to re-establish the context. In other cases, like header > > compression, the context would get reestablished automatically as packets > > showed up at the router/MN with full IPv6 headers. > > > > So, I think there is a need for a CTARR to tell the MN whether or not the > > CT. > > > > Comments? > > > > jak > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 26 19:28:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27072 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5QNSA116215 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vg9x-0004DS-Vb for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27046 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vg9w-00074E-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vg9q-00074B-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vg9p-0004CE-G6; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:28:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vg91-0004Bf-Du for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:27:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA27002 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vg8z-00072u-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:27:09 -0400 Received: from user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de ([134.76.81.16] helo=s2.ifi.informatik.uni-goettingen.de) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vg8p-00072p-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:26:59 -0400 Received: from cs.uni-goettingen.de (IBZGate.ibz.gwdg.de [::ffff:134.76.38.21]) (AUTH: LOGIN fu) by s2.ifi.informatik.uni-goettingen.de with esmtp; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:27:00 +0200 Message-ID: <3EFB815E.5FE96BB6@cs.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:27:26 +0200 From: Xiaoming Fu Organization: University of Goettingen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: "Charles E. Perkins" , seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed References: <030d01c33c25$eaba72d0$636015ac@dclkempt40> <3EFB649F.6B278E5@iprg.nokia.com> <036d01c33c30$e1446ac0$636015ac@dclkempt40> <3EFB7766.151FA274@cs.uni-goettingen.de> <03b001c33c37$774bccb0$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I suppose this might be one of the potential reasons why CTP came into being. A CTP-friendly NSIS needs adding/readjusting a few features (message format; refreshment; security), though. Xiaoming James Kempf wrote: > > So it sounds like NSIS could benefit from knowing whether the CT succeeded > or failed? > > jak > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Xiaoming Fu" > To: "James Kempf" > Cc: "Charles E. Perkins" ; > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed > > > Hi James, > > > > James Kempf wrote: > > > For QoS, I'm not quite sure I follow your explanation. It seems like > what > > > you are saying is that a CTAR response might not have access to whether > the > > > QoS context establishment failed or not, right? But what connection does > > > that have with NSIS? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that NSIS > is > > > simply a signaling mechanism. The success or failure of the QoS context > > > establishment should be independent of the signaling to establish it in > the > > > first place. Or is the assumption that establishing the context after > > > transfer goes through the same steps as the signaling protocol would? > > > > In my understanding NSIS is trying to deliver different context (for > > different signaling applications, such as QoS resource reservation) to > > network nodes. If NSIS knows CT succeeds, it would not need to deliver > > QoS context from the MN along the nAR, thus saving wireless bandwidth; > > rather notifies (using shorter signaling message) the nAR to use that > > from CTD. > > > > > > > > W.r.t. QoS, it seems like one would need to examine what context would > be > > > established (and here I think we are talking about Intserv kinds of > context, > > > or maybe a subset of the kind that would be involved in Intserv, like a > > > basic bandwidth and latency allocation, since I believe Diffserv is > > > stateless w.r.t. individual flows). > > > > IMO QoS signaling for DiffServ could be also necessary, e.g., for > > marking/metering purposes. > > > > Cheers, > > Xiaoming > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 01:36:37 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05901 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5R5a8T10025 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vlu4-0002bc-KK for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05877 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vlu1-0001SK-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vltw-0001SH-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vltx-0002as-I4; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:36:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vltr-0002ab-Pf for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:35:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA05868 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vlto-0001S8-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:35:52 -0400 Received: from courier.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.9.1] helo=mail.cs.helsinki.fi) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vltd-0001Rp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:35:41 -0400 Received: from mannersaari.cs.Helsinki.FI (mannersaari.cs.helsinki.fi [::ffff:128.214.11.173]) (IDENT: jmanner, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,168bits,DES-CBC3-SHA) by mail.cs.helsinki.fi with esmtp; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:34:42 +0300 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:34:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka MJ Manner To: James Kempf cc: Seamoby Working Group Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft In-Reply-To: <00d701c33bfb$6f082260$636015ac@dclkempt40> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have tried for the last years to figure out how seamless/smooth/fast/[your favorite term here] handovers with QoS support can in real life be accomplished. I personally have come to the conclusion that although QoS and mobility management mechanisms seem to be somewhat in order, a CT framework would be the "final blow" in the whole system. More specifically, being able to do CT for IPSec and AAA is THE key, well, to me at least. Thus, I would like to see a WG guide on how you do IPSec and AAA CT, and how you couple that with the applications using the security mechanisms, for example, RSVP and a given mobility management mechanism. To go to the point, finaly, I would like the see the mentioned Seamoby "user guide" for CT, but it should also include the mentioned two additional use cases. I know that Seamoby is trying to close the work, but I think it might still be a good idea to try to write such an informational document. My 2 cents, Jukka On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, James Kempf wrote: > Jukka > > > I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good idea to have in > > Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. Something that tells > > more than RFC3374. > > I took a very quick look at draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could > see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though, since the intent is > to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think such a document is > needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header compression CT draft is > to provide a concrete example of real value that would come out of CT, since > some people (and in particular some IESG members and some members of the > Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide assumes that people > already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily about how to use it. > > What do other people think? > > >Still, the document should talk about more than one use > > case, though. > > > > I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that specifications for > multiple different kinds of contexts should be included into one draft? If > yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say, interested in > implementing context transfer for header compression, why should I have to > wade through a document that describes context transfer for AAA, and IPsec, > and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better in IETF, and they > are also easier to review and achieve concensus on approval. Although we > want the header compression CT document as a concrete example, it will also > serve as the (experimental) reference specification for implementing a > header compression context and will be used for that purpose. > > jak > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 01:52:37 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06140 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5R5q9k18543 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vm9Z-0004p0-6V for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06125 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vm9V-0001Wg-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vm9Q-0001Wd-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vm9S-0004kA-9F; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:52:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vm4x-00044H-Ea for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:47:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA06071 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vm4u-0001Vn-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:47:20 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vm4e-0001Vf-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:47:04 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id WAA19552; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5R5k6q06088; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:06 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306270546> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.22.18, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd1mRIYC; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:03 PDT Message-ID: <3EFBDA18.90308@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:46:00 -0700 From: Charlie Perkins Organization: Nokia User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jukka MJ Manner CC: Seamoby Working Group Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jukka, I agree with you that QoS context transfer is a crucial piece. In fact, in a way the QoS support was one of my main motivating factors for working on this problem. I'm happy to say that we have achieved a certain degree of success with our prototype. However, it may be procedurally impossible to publish a document towards that goal within seamoby. I would definitely support putting this work item on the charter, but it seems to me that the goal of the authority structures surrounding seamoby is to shut down the working group, for whatever reason (I do not understand). Maybe the work should proceed in another working group exactly like seamoby, but with more enthusiastic IESG support. I'm not sure how to engender that result, though. Regards, Charlie P. Jukka MJ Manner wrote: >Hi, > >I have tried for the last years to figure out how >seamless/smooth/fast/[your favorite term here] handovers with QoS support >can in real life be accomplished. I personally have come to the conclusion >that although QoS and mobility management mechanisms seem to be somewhat >in order, a CT framework would be the "final blow" in the whole system. >More specifically, being able to do CT for IPSec and AAA is THE key, well, >to me at least. > >Thus, I would like to see a WG guide on how you do IPSec and AAA CT, and >how you couple that with the applications using the security mechanisms, >for example, RSVP and a given mobility management mechanism. > >To go to the point, finaly, I would like the see the mentioned Seamoby >"user guide" for CT, but it should also include the mentioned two >additional use cases. I know that Seamoby is trying to close the work, but >I think it might still be a good idea to try to write such an >informational document. > >My 2 cents, >Jukka > >On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, James Kempf wrote: > > > >>Jukka >> >> >> >>>I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good idea to have in >>>Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. Something that tells >>>more than RFC3374. >>> >>> >>I took a very quick look at draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could >>see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though, since the intent is >>to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think such a document is >>needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header compression CT draft is >>to provide a concrete example of real value that would come out of CT, since >>some people (and in particular some IESG members and some members of the >>Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide assumes that people >>already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily about how to use it. >> >>What do other people think? >> >> >> >>>Still, the document should talk about more than one use >>>case, though. >>> >>> >>> >>I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that specifications for >>multiple different kinds of contexts should be included into one draft? If >>yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say, interested in >>implementing context transfer for header compression, why should I have to >>wade through a document that describes context transfer for AAA, and IPsec, >>and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better in IETF, and they >>are also easier to review and achieve concensus on approval. Although we >>want the header compression CT document as a concrete example, it will also >>serve as the (experimental) reference specification for implementing a >>header compression context and will be used for that purpose. >> >> jak >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Seamoby mailing list >Seamoby@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 14:43:01 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12384 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RIgVU22777 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:42:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyB5-0005vI-Oc for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:42:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12334 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyAb-0005lR-AP; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyA6-0005i0-Oo for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:41:30 -0400 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12252 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007001c33cd8$df3aa1b0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: "James Kempf" , References: <031301c33c28$21e0b9c0$636015ac@dclkempt40> Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:21:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The last paragraph of Section 5.4, it says that CTAR Relay routes to PAR, > but the routing details are given later. > So in the interest of simplifying the draft, I'd like to propose removing CTAR Relay from the draft for now. There are some security issues with it, and it is currently not well enough specified in the draft that it could be implemented. It could take quite some time to work these out, and we need to finish the draft. Since the draft is experimental, people could experiment with it, and we could revisit the issue, with some actual data, when and if the specification is put on the standards track. The editoral changes would be: Section 2.4: First sentence, remove terminating phrase ("it should be...") Section 5.4: Remove CTAR Relay from diagram and text following the diagram. Comments? jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 14:56:58 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13367 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RIuSC31037 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:56:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vxxf-0008DY-Hp for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:39 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10124 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vxwz-0007YV-Rq; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:27:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VuSM-0002P9-IC for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:44:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26395 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:52:21 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VsiE-0002O7-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:52:22 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vsi3-0002MI-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:52:11 -0400 Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RClP920327 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:47:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:47:01 +0300 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:46:53 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:46:52 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:46:51 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] CT Design Reviews from Review Board Thread-Index: AcM0nsDnLosgyNSAQ0S5Icl//SCWHQIBNyCQ To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 12:46:52.0303 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EC141F0:01C33CAA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments on Basavaraj's comments: 1. The Protocol Messages (CTAR, CTDR, CTR) described in sections 2.4.x need to have descriptions of each of the fields and flags. Also the type numbers need to be requested from IANA for these messages. --> assigned Issue 18. 2. Error codes have not been defined in the document. --> assigned Issue 18. 3. Formatting: a. No page numbers in the draft --> fixed. b. The ToC does not include page numbers as well --> fixed. c. Number the references (In the references section) --> Why numbers? I prefer text lables, easier to remember. d. There is no link from references in the text of the document to the references section. --> fixed 4. s/to reducing latency, packet losses and avoid/to reduce latency, packet loss and avoiding --> fixed 5. Section 1. Introduction a. The introduction relies on the justification for CT as described = in RFC3374. The introduction should focus on what this draft is about rather than the justification which is provided in the 1st paragraph. --> fixed =20 b. "context transfer-candidate services" - Please describe what these candidate services are. Or at least provide a few examples of the services being considered. --> fixed c. Argument 2: "interoperable solution that works for any Layer 2 radio access technology" is a lofty claim or goal. Not required in the scope of this protocol. --> fixed, changed to: An additional motivation is to provide an interoperable solution=20 that supports various Layer 2 radio access technologies. d. s/of application streams./of application streams: s/benefits./benefits: s/savings./savings: s/to errors./to errors: --> removed text e. i/over an expensive, low-speed link/over an expensive, low-speed link (MN-AR) i/higher-speed wire/higher-speed wire (between ARs). --> removed text f. "operates over reliable networks" - State that this is an assumption about reliability of inter-AR links. --> removed text g. s/In this document we describe/This document describes --> Fixed 6. Section 1.2 Would be good to define terminology such as FPT or point to a proper reference if this has been defined elsewhere --> Fixed 7. Section 2 a. Pargaraph 1 - CT is initiated by the MN or the network as a result of Handover. Is this the only case? Or can this be a result of network failure or service disruption because of maintenance? --> Right now, I think that is out of scope of this document, it is for further study. b. "We assume that pAR and nAR share an appropriate security association, set up independently and prior to context transfer." - It would be good to say that the details of how this SA is setup and the type of SA (IPsec or other)e are outside the scope this document.=20 --> Some clarify text is added. c. The protocol overview section would be clearer if organized into multiple subsections: 2.0 Prototool Overview 2.1 Use of FPT 2.2 Scenarios 2.2.1 Scenario 1 2.2.2 Scenario 2 Also having flow diagrams that are shown later in the document as part of the scenarios would help. --> still open. d. "Doing this locally at nAR when the MN attaches to it improves performance, " - Is it not also a requirement for security reasons? --> yes, text added. e. "Performing context transfer in advance of the MN attaching to = nAR clearly has potential for better performance" - This is an assumption that would need further justification. State that this is an assumption or backup the claim. --> modified text to: Performing context transfer in advance of the MN attaching=20 to nAR can increase handover performance. =20 f. "This is feasible for instance in Mobile IP fast handovers." - Most cellular networks also have the capability to determine that a mobile needs to be handed off. So mention this to be the case in most cellular networks. --> Yes, text added. g. "must be properly synchronized with appropriate handover messages, such as Mobile IP (Fast) Binding Update." - Do not need this dependency. Delete statement. --> deleted h. The last paragraph discusses again the SAs between ARs. Mention that this is outside the scope of this document and be done. No reason to get into details of an SA being easier for intra-domain vs inter-domain etc. --> agreed 8. Section 2.4 a. "The Mobile Node, for which context transfer protocol operations = are undertaken, is always identified by its previous IP access address." - Is uniqueness of the address at the previous AR guaranteed? For example in the case of Mobile IPv4, MNs which have private addresses may use the FA advertised CoA and reverse tunnel to the HA. In that case there could be multiple MNs with the same IP address(HoA). The FA is able to differentiate them based on the HA, HoA combination. --> assigned issue 20. b. "At any one time, only one context transfer operation may be in progress" - I could not understand whether this is the case on a per MN basis or for a pair of ARs --> per MN 9. Section 2.4.1 a. "Always sent by" - Dont start a sentence of a paragraph with a verb (Nit - Sorry :) ) --> fixed. b. "it should also be relayed to pAR." - Why? --> assigned issue 21 10. Section 2.4.2 "The Authorization Token is obtained by truncating the results of the HMAC_SHA1 computation to retain only the leading 32 bits."=20 - Is this sufficient? I mean just the leading 32 bits? But maybe this is more of a question for security experts. --> Issue 222 =20 =20 11. Section 2.4.4 "If transfering a context requires an ongoing process (i.e., is not short-lived)," - CT is most useful as described earlier for reducing packet loss and performance degradation of apps. Hence it is critical that CT has to be relatively quick. So I dont understand what you mean by CT not being short-lived. If it is not short-lived, it is useless. --> text changed to: If transferring a context cannot be completed in a timely fashion,=20 then nAR may send CTC to pAR to cancel an ongoing CT process. 12. Section 3 a. "CTP runs over UDP using port number . - This needs to be requested from IANA. Hence properly documented as such. --> text added: 7.2 UDP Port CTP requires a UDP port assignment. b."because of the physical proximity of the access routers" - This is an assumption of the topology and need not be the case. --> text deleted. c. i/UDP provides a optional checksum/UDP provides an optional... --> fixed d. "the status value BAD_UDP_CHECKSUM," - Where in the document are these error codes specified? --> see Issue19: Error codes have not been defined in the document.=20 13. Section 4 Keep the list of open issues in an appendix. --> deleted. 14. Section 5 Flow diagrams are good. However more text is needed to explain each of these in the document. In 5.3: a. "CTAR request to nAR (nAR must be able to authenticate MN for CT, security details later)" - When later? -> text covered already. b. How does the MN know if the new AR is capable of processing CTAR? --> see issue 5, still open. c. What happens to the context at the pAR after transfer is complete? Not explained in document. --> Issue 23, my comment: -> I think we should have a timer for context = at the pAR. When the timer expires, context is deleted. In 5.4: "routed through nAR (routing details later)." When later? --> soon ;) see issue 15. 15. Section 6 It would be good to have the security considerations section split up into the threats that exist and how they are tackled. --> some initial text added. From paragraph 2 it appears that there is an assumption about the topology of the network connecting the ARs. It would be good to keep it more general. --> I am sorry, but I don't understand your comment, I don't see this = assumption. Is it also not the case that AAA based mechansisms can be used for setting up the SA between ARs? --> out of scope. 16. Section 7 =20 The IANA section is not well written and does not provide enough guidelines for assigning type numbers and error codes and for the setup of the registry proposed by this document. --> some clean-up already done. 17. Section 8 s/during the creating of/during the creation of --> fixed. 18. Appendix A "This diagram illustrates the method for specifying context type data" What diagram? Also more text explaining the Context Type and how it fits into the CTD message would help. -> deleted. _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:08:03 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14338 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJ7Xs02040 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:07:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyZJ-0000Wh-Q5 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:07:33 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14274 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyYo-0000KY-6y; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:07:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyYN-0000JB-Li for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:06:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14163 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VyYN-0005Pj-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:06:35 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VyYC-0005P6-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:06:24 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RJ5I911011 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:18 +0300 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:18 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:17 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:17 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Thread-Index: AcM83bUnG7J8sPwMSA+HCbZCrP8aJQAAT+yA To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 19:05:17.0669 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C352950:01C33CDF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, > why is encryption necessary between the access routers? thats > an overkill if you have to encrypt a huge CTP packet. isnt=20 > authentication and integrity protection enough? Required to implement, optional to use. =20 > the problem is we should not specify what should be used. we > should specify what kind of protection is needed. and let > the people who implement CTP negotiate AH or ESP between the=20 > access routers. If you think negotiation is better, then we need to have the text to say how this is done. John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:10:01 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14540 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJ9Vr02819 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:09:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VybD-0000jO-GH for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:09:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14498 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyaj-0000gS-00; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:09:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vya0-0000eS-J9 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14378 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vya0-0005Qb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:16 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VyZk-0005PA-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:08:00 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA25077 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5RItdv19443; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:55:39 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306271855> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.94, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdPOdhBj; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:55:37 PDT Message-ID: <3EFC932A.11759DD7@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:55:38 -0700 From: Vijay Devarapalli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi John, why is encryption necessary between the access routers? thats an overkill if you have to encrypt a huge CTP packet. isnt authentication and integrity protection enough? the problem is we should not specify what should be used. we should specify what kind of protection is needed. and let the people who implement CTP negotiate AH or ESP between the access routers. Vijay john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > In order to close this issue, I have added the following text. > > John > > 6.1. IPsec Considerations > > Access Routers MUST implement IPsec ESP [ESP] in transport mode with non-null encryption and authentication algorithms to provide per-packet authentication, integrity protection and confidentiality, and MUST implement the replay protection mechanisms of IPsec. In those scenarios where IP layer protection is needed, ESP in tunnel mode SHOULD be used. Non-null encryption should be used when using IPSec ESP. it would be better to say, The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access Rotuers require per-packet authentication and integrity protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access Routers. (we dont have to say MUST implement replay protection. that comes automatically when IPsec and IKE are used). Vijay _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:12:22 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14900 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJBrB03621 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vxxq-0008Kt-00 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:50 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10276 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VxxL-00085I-0i; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VvF2-0005Ka-OO for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:34:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04371 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VvF1-0003rT-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:34:23 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VvEl-0003r2-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:34:07 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id IAA14935; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5RFX8m13894; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:33:08 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306271533> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.22.18, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd84DyfZ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:33:04 PDT Message-ID: <3EFC63AD.2070309@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:33:01 -0700 From: Charlie Perkins Organization: Nokia User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jukka MJ Manner CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jukka, I agree with you that security context transfer is a most useful feature. We have indeed defined a security context profile type. It is known that transferring security contexts does work as advertised and quickly. However, I was advised that putting any sort of security work into the seamoby process would raise a lot of concerns. I guess this stems from a more general problem within the IETF. Regards, Charlie P. Jukka MJ Manner wrote: >Hi, > >just to clarify one thing: I didn't talk about QoS contexts. I would >believe defining those would be really-really though and time consuming. I >was talking about IPsec and AAA contexts, to my understanding somewhat >simpler and more straight-forward. > >In my email, I said that MM and QoS seem to work, but the hard problem is >having security in place before the handover. For example, I have worked >with RSVP and mobility for some time now and to me it seems that MM and >QoS can be coupled and work adequately, but there is still a problem with >securing all this signaling. So, having a how-to on transferring >security-related contexts from pAR to nAR would be the next important >thing. > >Of course, QoS contexts are very important, too, but at least to me it >seems that having the security contexts transferred before a handover is >even more important. > >Regards, >Jukka > >On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > > >>Charlie & Jukka, >> >>I see the need for this, too. I think that there is interest in >>finishing the existing Seamoby work, though. One solution is >>to have an individual draft working on QoS Context transfers, >>with discussion on the Seamoby / NSIS mailing lists. Not >>everything needs to be a WG draft, as long as there are people >>interested in the subject. However, this would be a good >>thing to discuss in Vienna & get buy-in from the WG chairs >>and ADs. >> >>John >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: ext Charlie Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com] >>>Sent: 27 June, 2003 08:46 >>>To: Jukka MJ Manner >>>Cc: Seamoby Working Group >>>Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft >>> >>> >>> >>>Hello Jukka, >>> >>>I agree with you that QoS context transfer is a crucial piece. >>>In fact, in a way the QoS support was one of my main >>>motivating factors for working on this problem. I'm happy >>>to say that we have achieved a certain degree of success >>>with our prototype. >>> >>>However, it may be procedurally impossible to publish a document >>>towards that goal within seamoby. I would definitely support >>>putting this work item on the charter, but it seems to me that the >>>goal of the authority structures surrounding seamoby is to shut >>>down the working group, for whatever reason (I do not understand). >>> >>>Maybe the work should proceed in another working group exactly >>>like seamoby, but with more enthusiastic IESG support. I'm not sure >>>how to engender that result, though. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Charlie P. >>> >>> >>> >>>Jukka MJ Manner wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>I have tried for the last years to figure out how >>>>seamless/smooth/fast/[your favorite term here] handovers >>>> >>>> >>>with QoS support >>> >>> >>>>can in real life be accomplished. I personally have come to >>>> >>>> >>>the conclusion >>> >>> >>>>that although QoS and mobility management mechanisms seem to >>>> >>>> >>>be somewhat >>> >>> >>>>in order, a CT framework would be the "final blow" in the >>>> >>>> >>>whole system. >>> >>> >>>>More specifically, being able to do CT for IPSec and AAA is >>>> >>>> >>>THE key, well, >>> >>> >>>>to me at least. >>>> >>>>Thus, I would like to see a WG guide on how you do IPSec and >>>> >>>> >>>AAA CT, and >>> >>> >>>>how you couple that with the applications using the security >>>> >>>> >>>mechanisms, >>> >>> >>>>for example, RSVP and a given mobility management mechanism. >>>> >>>>To go to the point, finaly, I would like the see the >>>> >>>> >>>mentioned Seamoby >>> >>> >>>>"user guide" for CT, but it should also include the mentioned two >>>>additional use cases. I know that Seamoby is trying to close >>>> >>>> >>>the work, but >>> >>> >>>>I think it might still be a good idea to try to write such an >>>>informational document. >>>> >>>>My 2 cents, >>>>Jukka >>>> >>>>On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, James Kempf wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Jukka >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>idea to have in >>> >>> >>>>>>Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>Something that tells >>> >>> >>>>>>more than RFC3374. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>I took a very quick look at >>>>> >>>>> >>>draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could >>> >>> >>>>>see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though, >>>>> >>>>> >>>since the intent is >>> >>> >>>>>to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think >>>>> >>>>> >>>such a document is >>> >>> >>>>>needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header >>>>> >>>>> >>>compression CT draft is >>> >>> >>>>>to provide a concrete example of real value that would come >>>>> >>>>> >>>out of CT, since >>> >>> >>>>>some people (and in particular some IESG members and some >>>>> >>>>> >>>members of the >>> >>> >>>>>Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide >>>>> >>>>> >>>assumes that people >>> >>> >>>>>already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily >>>>> >>>>> >>>about how to use it. >>> >>> >>>>>What do other people think? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Still, the document should talk about more than one use >>>>>>case, though. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that >>>>> >>>>> >>>specifications for >>> >>> >>>>>multiple different kinds of contexts should be included >>>>> >>>>> >>>into one draft? If >>> >>> >>>>>yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say, >>>>> >>>>> >>>interested in >>> >>> >>>>>implementing context transfer for header compression, why >>>>> >>>>> >>>should I have to >>> >>> >>>>>wade through a document that describes context transfer for >>>>> >>>>> >>>AAA, and IPsec, >>> >>> >>>>>and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better in >>>>> >>>>> >>>IETF, and they >>> >>> >>>>>are also easier to review and achieve concensus on >>>>> >>>>> >>>approval. Although we >>> >>> >>>>>want the header compression CT document as a concrete >>>>> >>>>> >>>example, it will also >>> >>> >>>>>serve as the (experimental) reference specification for >>>>> >>>>> >>>implementing a >>> >>> >>>>>header compression context and will be used for that purpose. >>>>> >>>>> jak >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Seamoby mailing list >>>>Seamoby@ietf.org >>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Seamoby mailing list >>>Seamoby@ietf.org >>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >>> >>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:14:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15163 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJDVa04550 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:13:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyf5-0001BJ-Ed for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:13:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15090 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyea-00010z-Nt; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:13:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vye4-0000zM-MA for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:12:28 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14774 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RIu8a09722 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:08 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:08 +0300 Received: from esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.51]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:08 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:08 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:07 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Thread-Index: AcM82xMlV1pC2KAaReCAGsXtehf7mgAApPFA To: , , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 18:56:08.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4B0DCB0:01C33CDD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, > If this has some relation to NSIS, would you see a problem with having = an > (experimental) QoS context transfer draft in NSIS? Provided the WG = agrees, > of course. This would be an alternative to a strictly individual = draft, > which is also OK but might be less interesting to the NSIS folks. This is a possibility. > The original idea was that Seamboy would not get into defining feature > contexts, and that they would be done by the relevant WGs, but, for = tactical > reasons, we need at least one. I agree with this strategy. We should check with our AD on this as well. John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:18:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15777 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJHV405971 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:17:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyix-0001YE-Oo for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:17:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15706 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyiT-0001UX-Ae; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VyiR-0001U4-12 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:16:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15636 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:16:57 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VyiP-0005Ue-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:16:57 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VyiE-0005UY-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:16:47 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RIwu905664 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:58:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:58:56 +0300 Received: from esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.50]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:58:56 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:58:55 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:58:55 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft Thread-Index: AcM82635o2uiGGmsTW6XfO6NbxyCdgAAjsIg To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 18:58:55.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[287442A0:01C33CDE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Perhaps we could ping Dan Forsberg to resubmit it. =20 John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Rajeev Koodli [mailto:rajeev@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 27 June, 2003 20:52 > To: Jukka MJ Manner > Cc: James Kempf; Seamoby Working Group > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Jukka, >=20 > there was a draft on AAA state relocation. >=20 > draft-forsberg-seamoby-aaa-relocate-00.txt >=20 > Let me know if you are interested but cannot find it. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -Rajeev >=20 >=20 > Jukka MJ Manner wrote: >=20 > > Hi, > > > > I have tried for the last years to figure out how > > seamless/smooth/fast/[your favorite term here] handovers=20 > with QoS support > > can in real life be accomplished. I personally have come to=20 > the conclusion > > that although QoS and mobility management mechanisms seem=20 > to be somewhat > > in order, a CT framework would be the "final blow" in the=20 > whole system. > > More specifically, being able to do CT for IPSec and AAA is=20 > THE key, well, > > to me at least. > > > > Thus, I would like to see a WG guide on how you do IPSec=20 > and AAA CT, and > > how you couple that with the applications using the=20 > security mechanisms, > > for example, RSVP and a given mobility management mechanism. > > > > To go to the point, finaly, I would like the see the=20 > mentioned Seamoby > > "user guide" for CT, but it should also include the mentioned two > > additional use cases. I know that Seamoby is trying to=20 > close the work, but > > I think it might still be a good idea to try to write such an > > informational document. > > > > My 2 cents, > > Jukka > > > > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, James Kempf wrote: > > > > > Jukka > > > > > > > I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a=20 > good idea to have in > > > > Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft.=20 > Something that tells > > > > more than RFC3374. > > > > > > I took a very quick look at=20 > draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could > > > see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though,=20 > since the intent is > > > to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think=20 > such a document is > > > needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header=20 > compression CT draft is > > > to provide a concrete example of real value that would=20 > come out of CT, since > > > some people (and in particular some IESG members and some=20 > members of the > > > Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide=20 > assumes that people > > > already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily=20 > about how to use it. > > > > > > What do other people think? > > > > > > >Still, the document should talk about more than one use > > > > case, though. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that=20 > specifications for > > > multiple different kinds of contexts should be included=20 > into one draft? If > > > yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say,=20 > interested in > > > implementing context transfer for header compression, why=20 > should I have to > > > wade through a document that describes context transfer=20 > for AAA, and IPsec, > > > and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better=20 > in IETF, and they > > > are also easier to review and achieve concensus on=20 > approval. Although we > > > want the header compression CT document as a concrete=20 > example, it will also > > > serve as the (experimental) reference specification for=20 > implementing a > > > header compression context and will be used for that purpose. > > > > > > jak > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:22:11 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16186 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJLgf08157 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyfm-0001Dd-OZ for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:14:14 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10160 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vxx8-0007ox-AQ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:28:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VuYr-0002P9-In for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:50:49 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.helsinki.fi (courier.cs.helsinki.fi [128.214.9.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA20628 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mannersaari.cs.Helsinki.FI (mannersaari.cs.helsinki.fi [::ffff:128.214.11.173]) (IDENT: jmanner, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,168bits,DES-CBC3-SHA) by mail.cs.helsinki.fi with esmtp; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:56:14 +0300 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:56:14 +0300 (EEST) From: Jukka MJ Manner To: john.loughney@nokia.com cc: charliep@iprg.nokia.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, just to clarify one thing: I didn't talk about QoS contexts. I would believe defining those would be really-really though and time consuming. I was talking about IPsec and AAA contexts, to my understanding somewhat simpler and more straight-forward. In my email, I said that MM and QoS seem to work, but the hard problem is having security in place before the handover. For example, I have worked with RSVP and mobility for some time now and to me it seems that MM and QoS can be coupled and work adequately, but there is still a problem with securing all this signaling. So, having a how-to on transferring security-related contexts from pAR to nAR would be the next important thing. Of course, QoS contexts are very important, too, but at least to me it seems that having the security contexts transferred before a handover is even more important. Regards, Jukka On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Charlie & Jukka, > > I see the need for this, too. I think that there is interest in > finishing the existing Seamoby work, though. One solution is > to have an individual draft working on QoS Context transfers, > with discussion on the Seamoby / NSIS mailing lists. Not > everything needs to be a WG draft, as long as there are people > interested in the subject. However, this would be a good > thing to discuss in Vienna & get buy-in from the WG chairs > and ADs. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Charlie Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com] > > Sent: 27 June, 2003 08:46 > > To: Jukka MJ Manner > > Cc: Seamoby Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Candidate for New WG Draft > > > > > > > > Hello Jukka, > > > > I agree with you that QoS context transfer is a crucial piece. > > In fact, in a way the QoS support was one of my main > > motivating factors for working on this problem. I'm happy > > to say that we have achieved a certain degree of success > > with our prototype. > > > > However, it may be procedurally impossible to publish a document > > towards that goal within seamoby. I would definitely support > > putting this work item on the charter, but it seems to me that the > > goal of the authority structures surrounding seamoby is to shut > > down the working group, for whatever reason (I do not understand). > > > > Maybe the work should proceed in another working group exactly > > like seamoby, but with more enthusiastic IESG support. I'm not sure > > how to engender that result, though. > > > > Regards, > > Charlie P. > > > > > > > > Jukka MJ Manner wrote: > > > > >Hi, > > > > > >I have tried for the last years to figure out how > > >seamless/smooth/fast/[your favorite term here] handovers > > with QoS support > > >can in real life be accomplished. I personally have come to > > the conclusion > > >that although QoS and mobility management mechanisms seem to > > be somewhat > > >in order, a CT framework would be the "final blow" in the > > whole system. > > >More specifically, being able to do CT for IPSec and AAA is > > THE key, well, > > >to me at least. > > > > > >Thus, I would like to see a WG guide on how you do IPSec and > > AAA CT, and > > >how you couple that with the applications using the security > > mechanisms, > > >for example, RSVP and a given mobility management mechanism. > > > > > >To go to the point, finaly, I would like the see the > > mentioned Seamoby > > >"user guide" for CT, but it should also include the mentioned two > > >additional use cases. I know that Seamoby is trying to close > > the work, but > > >I think it might still be a good idea to try to write such an > > >informational document. > > > > > >My 2 cents, > > >Jukka > > > > > >On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, James Kempf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>Jukka > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>I haven't reviewed the draft yet, but it might be a good > > idea to have in > > >>>Seamoby something like the DCCP User Guide draft. > > Something that tells > > >>>more than RFC3374. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>I took a very quick look at > > draft-ietf-dccp-user-guide-00.txt and I could > > >>see some benefit in a similar document for CTP, though, > > since the intent is > > >>to take CTP to experimental (unlike DCCP) I don't think > > such a document is > > >>needed right now. Remember, the intent of the header > > compression CT draft is > > >>to provide a concrete example of real value that would come > > out of CT, since > > >>some people (and in particular some IESG members and some > > members of the > > >>Seamoby CT review board) are skeptical. A User's Guide > > assumes that people > > >>already see the value of the protocol, and is primarily > > about how to use it. > > >> > > >>What do other people think? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>Still, the document should talk about more than one use > > >>>case, though. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you proposing that > > specifications for > > >>multiple different kinds of contexts should be included > > into one draft? If > > >>yes, this sounds a bit impractical to me. If I am, say, > > interested in > > >>implementing context transfer for header compression, why > > should I have to > > >>wade through a document that describes context transfer for > > AAA, and IPsec, > > >>and... Small, focussed specifications tend to do better in > > IETF, and they > > >>are also easier to review and achieve concensus on > > approval. Although we > > >>want the header compression CT document as a concrete > > example, it will also > > >>serve as the (experimental) reference specification for > > implementing a > > >>header compression context and will be used for that purpose. > > >> > > >> jak > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Seamoby mailing list > > >Seamoby@ietf.org > > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:23:08 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16319 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJMdv09061 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vynv-0002M4-Kf for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:39 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16281 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VynN-0002Jx-34; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:22:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyn7-0002Ad-Ug for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16100 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vyn6-0005Yd-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:48 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vymq-0005Xo-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:21:32 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id MAA26918 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5RJKoq16009; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:20:50 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306271920> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.94, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdGHvEXe; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:20:49 PDT Message-ID: <3EFC9911.C57F59E@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:20:49 -0700 From: Vijay Devarapalli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > Hi Vijay, > > > why is encryption necessary between the access routers? thats > > an overkill if you have to encrypt a huge CTP packet. isnt > > authentication and integrity protection enough? > > Required to implement, optional to use. > > > the problem is we should not specify what should be used. we > > should specify what kind of protection is needed. and let > > the people who implement CTP negotiate AH or ESP between the > > access routers. > > If you think negotiation is better, then we need to have the > text to say how this is done. negotiation between the access router could be 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would say if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) and destination = another AR (or could be any) negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm or it could say if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need administrators to be involved. then the security policy would say if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) use SA_something. the SA would have the appropriate information. my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) is used. it would be enough to simply say The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access Routers. Vijay _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 15:57:29 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14804 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RJBVx03543 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyd9-0000v4-DS for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14736 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vyce-0000nk-Qh; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:11:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vybl-0000kg-1X for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:10:05 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14558 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RIrDa08500 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:13 +0300 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:13 +0300 Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:12 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:11 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:10 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed Thread-Index: AcM82xAcv26M7Z4BQcG4r8HORNM+GgAAjmsw To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 18:53:11.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B519CA0:01C33CDD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, That is a good suggestion, I will try to work that in. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 27 June, 2003 18:53 > To: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki); Perkins Charles (IPRG) > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed >=20 >=20 > OK. >=20 > Do you think it might make sense to put a flag in CTAR so the=20 > MN can say > whether or not it wants to receive a reply? I believe there=20 > is such in BU > for MIP. That way, if only header compression were being=20 > done, the flag > could be off, whereas if something like QoS were done that=20 > needed a reply, > the flag could be on. >=20 > jak >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 4:00 AM > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 2: CTAR Response Needed >=20 >=20 > > Hi all, > > > > I am adding this message to CTP. My assumption is that=20 > this is purely an > informative message, which can be disregarded by the MN if=20 > the MN has other > information. > > > > br, > > John > > > > 2.4.2 Context Transfer Activate Acknowledge (CTAA) Message > > > > This is an informative message sent nAR to the MN to=20 > acknowledge a CTAR > message. Acknowledgement is optional, since the MN may have=20 > already moved > and may not receive the reply. This message may include a list of FPT > (feature profile types) that were not transferred successfully. > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Message Type |reserve| Length | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Mobile Node's Previous IP Address | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Previous Router IP Address | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |Type=3DAuth-Token| Type Len | Replay | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | MN Authorization Token | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Failed Context Type (if present) | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | Next Failed Context Type (if present) | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | ........ | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > The message data for CTAR is the Mobile Node's Previous IP Address, > Previous Router's IP address, MN Authorization Token,=20 > followed by a list of > context types that were not successfully transferred. If no=20 > context types > are specified, then all contexts for the mobile node are considered > successfully transferred. > > > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 16:18:11 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18821 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RKHhs26298 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:17:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VzfD-0006q5-AC for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:17:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18762 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VzfB-00063N-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:17:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vzf4-000608-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:17:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzda-0006RF-Nc; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:16:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VzIM-0004v7-IL for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:54:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18104 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:54:04 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VzIL-0005pz-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:54:05 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VzIA-0005pD-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:53:54 -0400 Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5RJ5ea16645 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:40 +0300 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:40 +0300 Received: from esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.30]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:40 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:39 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:05:39 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Thread-Index: AcM83AFy7KUw3R2vQV6hT2qM8w63BwAAxAlw To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 19:05:39.0829 (UTC) FILETIME=[196A8250:01C33CDF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, I could live with this - what do others think? John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 27 June, 2003 21:21 > To: James Kempf; seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay >=20 >=20 >=20 > > The last paragraph of Section 5.4, it says that CTAR Relay=20 > routes to PAR, > > but the routing details are given later. > > >=20 > So in the interest of simplifying the draft, I'd like to=20 > propose removing > CTAR Relay from the draft for now. There are some security=20 > issues with it, > and it is currently not well enough specified in the draft=20 > that it could be > implemented. It could take quite some time to work these out,=20 > and we need to > finish the draft. Since the draft is experimental, people=20 > could experiment > with it, and we could revisit the issue, with some actual=20 > data, when and if > the specification is put on the standards track. >=20 > The editoral changes would be: >=20 > Section 2.4: First sentence, remove terminating phrase ("it=20 > should be...") >=20 > Section 5.4: Remove CTAR Relay from diagram and text=20 > following the diagram. >=20 > Comments? >=20 > jak >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 16:32:01 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19615 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RKVXp31102 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzsb-00085Z-Bn for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:33 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19604 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzs5-0007uZ-Pu; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VuQY-0002NW-L2 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:42:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25819 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VsSi-0002Cv-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:36:20 -0400 Received: from lists.media7.org ([194.100.13.106] helo=cafe-seed.net) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19VsSX-0002Bg-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:36:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 5987 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2003 11:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helsinki) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 27 Jun 2003 11:32:26 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain To: seamoby@ietf.org From: John Loughney Reply-To: Seamoby CTP Issues Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:32:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1056713546.46.0.360678052439.issue@danforsberg.info> X-Roundup-Name: Seamoby CTP Issues X-Roundup-Loop: hello Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Seamoby] [issue3] Specifying IPsec between ARs Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Loughney added the comment: Added the following text: 6=2E1. IPsec Considerations Access Routers MUST implement IPsec ESP [ESP] in transport=20 mode with non-null encryption and authentication algorithms=20 to provide per-packet authentication, integrity protection=20 and confidentiality, and MUST implement the replay=20 protection mechanisms of IPsec. In those scenarios where IP=20 layer protection is needed, ESP in tunnel mode SHOULD be=20 used. Non-null encryption should be used when using IPSec=20 ESP. __________________________________________________________ Seamoby CTP Issues http://danforsberg.info:8080/draft-ietf-seamoby-ctp/issue3 __________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 16:32:02 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19621 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RKVX431119 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzsb-00085q-Pg for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:33 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19603 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzs6-0007v0-BD; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:31:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vude-0002P9-7C for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:55:46 -0400 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de (mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21548; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE) by mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de with esmtp (exim-4.20-2) id 19VpH9-0002al-M9; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:12:11 +0200 Received: from mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE ([130.149.4.15]) by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:12:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ftmail.ee.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.49.250]) by mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de with esmtp (exim-4.20-2) id 19VpH1-0001su-Jk; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:12:03 +0200 Received: from ft.ee.tu-berlin.de (ftsu34.tkn.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.49.204]) by ftmail.ee.tu-berlin.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5R95pB32445; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:05:51 +0200 Message-ID: <3EFC0AEC.4020300@ft.ee.tu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:14:20 +0200 From: Heike Klemz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: klemz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070605040404060009040902" X-Virus-Scanned: Sophos MailMonitor on mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:12:03 +0200 Subject: [Seamoby] CfP: Frist European Workshop on Wireless Sensor Networks Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070605040404060009040902 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070407070808010504030103" --------------070407070808010504030103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Colleague, I would like to draw your attention to the " Frist European Workshop on Wireless Sensor Networks" Berlin, January 2004 (see Attachement). Submission deadline is July 1st, 2003: submission details are available under http://www.ewsn.org The submission deadline for EWSN has been extended to July 14th, 18:00 middle European daylight savings time (corresponding to noon Eastern Standard Time or 9 am Pacific time). Best regards Adam Wolisz --------------070407070808010504030103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Colleague,

I would like to draw your attention to the " Frist European Workshop
on Wireless Sensor Networks" Berlin, January 2004 (see Attachement).
Submission deadline is July 1st, 2003: submission details are available
under      http://www.ewsn.org

The submission deadline for EWSN has been extended to July 14th, 18:00 middle European daylight savings time (corresponding to noon Eastern Standard Time or 9 am Pacific time). 

Best regards
Adam Wolisz 

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_______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 18:30:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23532 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RMUCX28469 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W1jQ-0007P4-9A for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23331 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W1jN-0006n4-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W1jH-0006n1-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W1jG-0007H0-Md; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:30:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vzzv-0000co-FE for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:39:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19939 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:39:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vzzt-0006Fv-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:39:05 -0400 Received: from [63.78.179.216] (helo=mgw-dax1.ext.nokia.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vzzi-0006Fp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:38:54 -0400 Received: from davir01nok.americas.nokia.com (davir01nok.americas.nokia.com [172.18.242.84]) by mgw-dax1.ext.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5RKci120488 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:38:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by davir01nok.americas.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:38:43 -0500 Received: from daebe007.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.242.211]) by daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:37:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: <697DAA22C5004B4596E033803A7CEF44024DB337@daebe007.americas.nokia.com> Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Thread-Index: AcM84ZwNhLbzLhgMRN64m5fLjIT8iwACh3hQ To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2003 20:37:30.0141 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDD164D0:01C33CEB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > negotiation between the access router could be >=20 > 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would > say =20 >=20 > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > and destination =3D another AR (or could be any) > negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm >=20 > or it could say >=20 > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 > =20 >=20 > 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need > administrators to be involved. then the security policy=20 > would say >=20 > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > use SA_something. >=20 > the SA would have the appropriate information. >=20 > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of=20 > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra.=20 > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is=20 > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > is used. it would be enough to simply say >=20 > The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access=20 > Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity=20 > protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the=20 > Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access=20 > Routers. >=20 I agree with what Vijay is saying here. It is sufficient to specify that IPsec be used for securing CTP messages between ARs. > Vijay >=20 -Basavaraj _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 19:32:35 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26154 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RNW6M26442 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2hK-0006sP-7a for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:06 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26096 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2fL-0006Ib-Az; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:30:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2eZ-00065v-Sp for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:29:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25872 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2NN-00078O-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:11:29 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2My-000776-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:11:04 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA10254; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5RN7q423033; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:07:52 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306272307> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.90, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdHhSSBE; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:07:50 PDT Message-ID: <3EFCCE47.3D306315@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:07:51 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay References: <031301c33c28$21e0b9c0$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Kempf wrote: > > Is CTAR Relay really necessary? Isn't it sufficient to either a) send CTAR > to NAR (as currently) or b) send CTAR to PAR? > I think CTAR alone should be sufficient. > > Note: FMIP has chosen to do b), why does CTP do a) instead? Actually, if possible MN sends CTAR to PAR before leaving the link. Since it does not wait for a confirmation from PAR regarding success of CT, it always send CTAR to NAR. This way, if CT succeded, NAR would verify authorization and make contexts available right away. If it did not, OR if the MN was unable to send CTAR on the old link, the CTAR to NAR triggers CTD Request and CTD messages. Notice that in both the cases token verification takes place at the router possessing the contexts. This is like transmitting FBU when FBack has not been received. Regards, -Rajeev > > > I'm especially curious because the CTP and FMIP drafts share an author and > one of the authors on the CTP draft was on the original FMIP design team, > which would have suggested to me more consistency in the basic architecture > between the two protocols. > > jak > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 19:49:37 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26689 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RNn8L00716 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2xo-0000BT-DJ for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26670 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2xm-0007Uv-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2xg-0007Ur-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2xg-000095-Er; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2wt-0008Oj-Bu for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:48:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26605 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2wc-0007U1-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:47:54 -0400 Received: from user.informatik.uni-goettingen.de ([134.76.81.16] helo=s2.ifi.informatik.uni-goettingen.de) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2wR-0007Tg-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:47:44 -0400 Received: from cs.uni-goettingen.de (IBZGate.ibz.gwdg.de [::ffff:134.76.38.21]) (AUTH: LOGIN fu) by s2.ifi.informatik.uni-goettingen.de with esmtp; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:46:54 +0200 Message-ID: <3EFCD78B.3C6655DF@cs.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:23 +0200 From: Xiaoming Fu Organization: University of Goettingen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols References: <01a501c33d00$70c04910$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, This sounds interesting, but would introduce more failure cases which are complicated to handle. As CTP minimizes the requirement of sending large packets over the air, it is not very desirable to bundle CTP into handover messages at the cost of added complexity. OTOH I think it might make sense for bundling CTAR/CTRR within any data packets _after_ completing mobility management, similar to BU options v.s. data packets. Cheers, Xiaoming James Kempf wrote: > > Issue: > > Section 3 specifies that CTP runs to a dedicated UDP port. There may be > cases where one would want to optimize wireless signaling (MN to AR) to > avoid multiple messages from various protocols associated with different > aspects of handover (for example, mobility mangement and context transfer). > For this reason, it might be useful to allow the MN to bundle the CTAR with > other handover signaling. For example, if FMIP is being used for mobility > management, it might be useful to bundle CTAR with the FMIP BU (details are > left as an exercise for the researcher). > > Suggested Resolution: > > Add the following paragraph at the end of Section 3: > > In some cases, may be advantageous to bundle the context transfer > signaling between the MN and network, or between access routers, together > with other handover signaling. For this purpose, the MN may bundle the CTAR > message and the NAR may bundle the CTARR with other handover signaling > rather than use dedicated UDP port for the protocol. Similarly, the PAR and > NAR may bundle the CTD/CTDR/CTR with other handover signaling. > > Comments? > > jak > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 19:55:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26882 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RNt8j02845 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W33b-0000jo-Vg for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26871 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W33a-0007Xx-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W33U-0007Xu-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W33V-0000j7-Jx; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:55:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W33P-0000iq-Nj for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:54:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26864 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W33N-0007Xm-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:54:54 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W337-0007XY-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:54:37 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA12307; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5RNrvf23711; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:53:57 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306272353> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.94, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdwhEkNB; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:53:56 PDT Message-ID: <3EFCD914.6AA934FA@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:53:56 -0700 From: Vijay Devarapalli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols References: <01a501c33d00$70c04910$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I definitely like this idea. Vijay James Kempf wrote: > > Issue: > > Section 3 specifies that CTP runs to a dedicated UDP port. There may be > cases where one would want to optimize wireless signaling (MN to AR) to > avoid multiple messages from various protocols associated with different > aspects of handover (for example, mobility mangement and context transfer). > For this reason, it might be useful to allow the MN to bundle the CTAR with > other handover signaling. For example, if FMIP is being used for mobility > management, it might be useful to bundle CTAR with the FMIP BU (details are > left as an exercise for the researcher). > > Suggested Resolution: > > Add the following paragraph at the end of Section 3: > > In some cases, may be advantageous to bundle the context transfer > signaling between the MN and network, or between access routers, together > with other handover signaling. For this purpose, the MN may bundle the CTAR > message and the NAR may bundle the CTARR with other handover signaling > rather than use dedicated UDP port for the protocol. Similarly, the PAR and > NAR may bundle the CTD/CTDR/CTR with other handover signaling. > > Comments? > > jak > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 27 20:24:46 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26156 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RNW6I26460 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2hK-0006sg-Dk for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:06 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26095 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2fK-0006IK-OE; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:30:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W2eZ-00065q-I4 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:29:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25868 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2NO-00078T-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:11:30 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W2ND-000782-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:11:20 -0400 Message-ID: <01a501c33d00$70c04910$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:04:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Issue: Section 3 specifies that CTP runs to a dedicated UDP port. There may be cases where one would want to optimize wireless signaling (MN to AR) to avoid multiple messages from various protocols associated with different aspects of handover (for example, mobility mangement and context transfer). For this reason, it might be useful to allow the MN to bundle the CTAR with other handover signaling. For example, if FMIP is being used for mobility management, it might be useful to bundle CTAR with the FMIP BU (details are left as an exercise for the researcher). Suggested Resolution: Add the following paragraph at the end of Section 3: In some cases, may be advantageous to bundle the context transfer signaling between the MN and network, or between access routers, together with other handover signaling. For this purpose, the MN may bundle the CTAR message and the NAR may bundle the CTARR with other handover signaling rather than use dedicated UDP port for the protocol. Similarly, the PAR and NAR may bundle the CTD/CTDR/CTR with other handover signaling. Comments? jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 28 00:48:35 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03068 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5S4m9S04528 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W7dA-0001Ax-V5 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03053 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W7d8-0001G7-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W7d2-0001G4-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W7d2-0001AA-Vi; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:48:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W7bG-0000y0-UC for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:47:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02971 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:45:52 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W7az-0001Ej-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:45:53 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W7ao-0001Ee-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:45:42 -0400 Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5S4jLa26105 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 07:45:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 07:45:21 +0300 Received: from esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.30]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 28 Jun 2003 07:45:21 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 28 Jun 2003 07:45:21 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 07:45:20 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols Thread-Index: AcM9BFDFxyf02fGcSr6mCPvkvJeZswAK4PRA To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2003 04:45:21.0369 (UTC) FILETIME=[14D45490:01C33D30] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James, While you suggestion is a good one, I feel adding it to the current draft will add more complexity; more error cases, etc. =20 My prefered solution is to get the simple (& basic CTP done). If bundling CTP messages with FMIP BUs are seen as a good thing, a seperate extension could be writen up in a draft. That would be something that could be handled in one of the MIP WGs ... John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 28 June, 2003 02:04 > To: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover > Protocols >=20 >=20 > Issue: >=20 > Section 3 specifies that CTP runs to a dedicated UDP port. =20 > There may be > cases where one would want to optimize wireless signaling (MN=20 > to AR) to > avoid multiple messages from various protocols associated=20 > with different > aspects of handover (for example, mobility mangement and=20 > context transfer). > For this reason, it might be useful to allow the MN to bundle=20 > the CTAR with > other handover signaling. For example, if FMIP is being used=20 > for mobility > management, it might be useful to bundle CTAR with the FMIP=20 > BU (details are > left as an exercise for the researcher). >=20 > Suggested Resolution: >=20 > Add the following paragraph at the end of Section 3: >=20 > In some cases, may be advantageous to bundle the context transfer > signaling between the MN and network, or between access=20 > routers, together > with other handover signaling. For this purpose, the MN may=20 > bundle the CTAR > message and the NAR may bundle the CTARR with other handover signaling > rather than use dedicated UDP port for the protocol.=20 > Similarly, the PAR and > NAR may bundle the CTD/CTDR/CTR with other handover signaling. >=20 > Comments? >=20 > jak >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 28 01:23:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03416 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5S5N8t11058 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W8B2-0002sH-PW for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03409 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8Az-0001MI-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8Au-0001MF-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W8Av-0002rY-Ih; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:23:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W896-0002mU-6v for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:22:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03367 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:21:07 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W893-0001LC-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:21:05 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W88s-0001L8-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:20:54 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5S5KY919725 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:20:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:20:35 +0300 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:20:34 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:20:34 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:20:33 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Thread-Index: AcM84ZwNhLbzLhgMRN64m5fLjIT8iwACh3hQABH262A= To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2003 05:20:34.0199 (UTC) FILETIME=[002C9A70:01C33D35] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, So, thus far we have: 2 people saying (Basavaraj & Vija):=20 my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of=20 IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra.=20 and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is=20 used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) is used.=20 Antti Tuomin says: Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all the entities. Hesham says, in answer to the question", Do folks think that mandatory = IPsec=20 is reasonable here?" Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I=20 mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic=20 will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the=20 transport protocol for CTP). Pekka Savola says: So, the model how security is used must be re-thought. It would seem = to be the safest to say that AH (or maybe ESP, dunno) *MUST* be used for = all message types, and describe different issues there. In some cases = where context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the = same security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, = even lower requirements might be reasonable. So, I cannot say we have consensus on this subject. However, in absence of compelling info, I tend to be conservative on security issues. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] > Sent: 27 June, 2003 23:37 > To: vijayd@iprg.nokia.com; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs >=20 >=20 >=20 > > negotiation between the access router could be > >=20 > > 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would > > say =20 > >=20 > > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > and destination =3D another AR (or could be any) > > negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm > >=20 > > or it could say > >=20 > > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 > > =20 > >=20 > > 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need > > administrators to be involved. then the security policy=20 > > would say > >=20 > > if protocol =3D CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > use SA_something. > >=20 > > the SA would have the appropriate information. > >=20 > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of=20 > > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra.=20 > > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is=20 > > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > > is used. it would be enough to simply say > >=20 > > The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access=20 > > Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity=20 > > protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the=20 > > Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access=20 > > Routers. > >=20 >=20 > I agree with what Vijay is saying here. It is sufficient to > specify that IPsec be used for securing CTP messages between > ARs. >=20 > > Vijay > >=20 >=20 > -Basavaraj >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 28 01:47:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03740 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5S5lCu15838 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W8YK-00047N-Ds for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03727 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8YH-0001RF-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8YB-0001RC-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W8Y9-00044i-CN; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:47:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19W8Xy-00044X-L6 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:46:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA03722 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8Xv-0001R8-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:46:47 -0400 Received: from mail.flarion.com ([63.103.94.23] helo=rrmail01.lab.flarion.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19W8Xk-0001R5-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:46:37 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0141BB66@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Soliman Hesham To: "'john.loughney@nokia.com'" , Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com, vijayd@iprg.nokia.com Cc: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:45:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , John, CTP should definitely care whether AH or ESP is used, depending on the context being transfered. For instance, if the device's encryption keys are being transferred from one AR to another you want integrity and confidentiality. Therefore, you don't want AH only. I think in most cases that I'm aware of it is sufficient to use ESP. None of this means that CTP should be modified, it just means that the right requirement on the _use_ of IPsec should be made. Hesham > -----Original Message----- > From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 1:21 AM > To: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; vijayd@iprg.nokia.com > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > > > Hi all, > > So, thus far we have: > > 2 people saying (Basavaraj & Vija): > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > is used. > > Antti Tuomin says: > > Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel > for transferring contexts, providing authentication, > integrity, and > (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say > "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header > (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give > confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to > use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, > Mobile IPv6 > uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already > implemented in all > the entities. > > Hesham says, in answer to the question", Do folks think that > mandatory IPsec > is reasonable here?" > > Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I > mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic > will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the > transport protocol for CTP). > > Pekka Savola says: > > So, the model how security is used must be re-thought. It > would seem to > be the safest to say that AH (or maybe ESP, dunno) *MUST* > be used for all > message types, and describe different issues there. In > some cases where > context transfers messages are only received from > pAR's/nAR's in the same > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently > secure medium, even > lower requirements might be reasonable. > > So, I cannot say we have consensus on this subject. > However, in absence > of compelling info, I tend to be conservative on security issues. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com > [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] > > Sent: 27 June, 2003 23:37 > > To: vijayd@iprg.nokia.com; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > > > > > > > > > negotiation between the access router could be > > > > > > 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would > > > say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > and destination = another AR (or could be any) > > > negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm > > > > > > or it could say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 > > > > > > > > > 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need > > > administrators to be involved. then the security policy > > > would say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > use SA_something. > > > > > > the SA would have the appropriate information. > > > > > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > > > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > > > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > > > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > > > is used. it would be enough to simply say > > > > > > The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity > > > protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the > > > Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > Routers. > > > > > > > I agree with what Vijay is saying here. It is sufficient to > > specify that IPsec be used for securing CTP messages between > > ARs. > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > -Basavaraj > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 02:08:57 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00583 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5U68S208477 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wrq0-0002Ca-80 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00109 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wrpw-0003oC-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:24 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wrpr-0003nO-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:19 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wroc-0001fz-0A; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:07:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wrnw-0001Vb-Jq for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:06:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27747 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:06:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wrnt-0003n3-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:06:17 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wrnd-0003mw-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:06:01 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id WAA06596 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5U5kII00463; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:46:18 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306300546> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (10.241.54.137, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdJyT6LL; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:46:16 PDT Message-ID: <3EFFCEA7.3040007@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:46:15 -0700 From: Vijay Devarapalli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com CC: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Pekka Savola says: > > In some cases where > context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the same > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, even > lower requirements might be reasonable. this is a very good comment, John. it makes no sense making the use of ESP mandatory, especially in the above scenario. you have to atleast say, if you already have a secure channel, IPsec must be optional.. > > So, I cannot say we have consensus on this subject. However, in absence > of compelling info, I tend to be conservative on security issues. all right, then. I guess it is better to be conservative. but remember people are going to ignore the MUST use ESP requirement if they already have a secure channel between the access routers. Vijay _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 02:20:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01939 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5U6KC116453 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Ws1L-0004HI-QG for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01868 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ws1I-0003r8-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ws1C-0003r5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Ws1C-0004Ee-Ku; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Ws0x-0004E5-I4 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:19:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01826 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:19:45 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ws0u-0003qp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:19:44 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ws0j-0003qb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:19:33 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5U6JBa22976 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:19:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:19:11 +0300 Received: from esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.50]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:19:11 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:19:10 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:19:08 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Thread-Index: AcM+yu820NIGKgZ/RWiiIwO7xqKjFgABGyIQ To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 06:19:10.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[84D59C90:01C33ECF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vija, > all right, then. I guess it is better to be conservative. but > remember people are going to ignore the MUST use ESP requirement > if they already have a secure channel between the access routers. What other secure channel do you mean? AH doesn't protect message contents, which may be needed if you are transfering AAA or=20 keying material. TLS is not possible, because we are using UDP. thanks, John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 05:01:24 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06283 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5U905611107 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:00:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WuW5-0002sy-OD for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:00:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA06191 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuSE-0004xO-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:56:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuS9-0004xL-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:56:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WuS9-0002jZ-Hk; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WuRI-0002jA-CW for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:55:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA06118 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:55:04 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuOC-0004wA-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:51:56 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuO1-0004vb-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:51:45 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5U8oua22916 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:50:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:50:55 +0300 Received: from esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.51]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:50:55 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:50:55 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:50:53 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay Thread-Index: AcM83AFy7KUw3R2vQV6hT2qM8w63BwCCKt1Q To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 08:50:55.0308 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7C480C0:01C33EE4] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, I have made the change you have proposed. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: 27 June, 2003 21:21 > To: James Kempf; seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 15: CTAR Relay >=20 >=20 >=20 > > The last paragraph of Section 5.4, it says that CTAR Relay=20 > routes to PAR, > > but the routing details are given later. > > >=20 > So in the interest of simplifying the draft, I'd like to=20 > propose removing > CTAR Relay from the draft for now. There are some security=20 > issues with it, > and it is currently not well enough specified in the draft=20 > that it could be > implemented. It could take quite some time to work these out,=20 > and we need to > finish the draft. Since the draft is experimental, people=20 > could experiment > with it, and we could revisit the issue, with some actual=20 > data, when and if > the specification is put on the standards track. >=20 > The editoral changes would be: >=20 > Section 2.4: First sentence, remove terminating phrase ("it=20 > should be...") >=20 > Section 5.4: Remove CTAR Relay from diagram and text=20 > following the diagram. >=20 > Comments? >=20 > jak >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 05:13:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06512 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5U9D8813700 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wuii-0003Yt-3L for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06506 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wuie-00052r-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuiZ-00052o-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:12:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wuib-0003Y8-Br; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:13:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WuiR-0003Vk-CZ for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:12:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06372 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:04:07 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuZy-00050R-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:04:06 -0400 Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com ([131.228.20.27]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuZn-00050E-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:03:55 -0400 Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5U93M929973 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:22 +0300 Received: from esebe019.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.58]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:20 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe019.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:20 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:19 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Thread-Index: AcM8Kybp5qq6qTENQ6qTT0MXvmknbACut+Pg To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 09:03:20.0553 (UTC) FILETIME=[73F7DD90:01C33EE6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, > Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. If MN has = not yet > completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed and it may not be if = there > is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly confirm a nCoA = is > currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC 2462 DAD = may not > be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that predictive = handover > is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving to the new = link > or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. >=20 > Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new link? If so, > wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? >=20 > And what is the purpoe of old CoA? Thinking about this a bit more - this is a tricky issue. link layer = address may not be good, in the case of vertical handovers. Also, what to do = with IPv4 & possibly NATed addresses? Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 05:28:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06817 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5U9S8j15801 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WuxE-00046m-7y for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06800 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WuxA-00057t-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wux5-00057q-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:27:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wux6-000440-Qe; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:28:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Wuwt-00043m-Fr for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:27:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA06793 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wuwq-00057e-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:27:44 -0400 Received: from mail.flarion.com ([63.103.94.23] helo=rrmail01.lab.flarion.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Wuwf-000578-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:27:33 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:25:56 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0141BB78@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Soliman Hesham To: "'john.loughney@nokia.com'" , kempf@docomolabs-usa.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:25:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , John, The MN's identifier should not be tied to its IP address or, as you correctly point out, its MAC address. If the MN needs to be identified, then a more abstract identifier should be used. For example, a NAI, IMSI, TMSI, FQDN (?) ...etc. Neither the IP address nor the MAC address are useful as generic identifiers. Hesham > -----Original Message----- > From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:03 AM > To: kempf@docomolabs-usa.com; seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in > CTAR or CTD > > > Hi James, > > > Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. > If MN has not yet > > completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed and it > may not be if there > > is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly > confirm a nCoA is > > currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC > 2462 DAD may not > > be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that > predictive handover > > is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving > to the new link > > or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. > > > > Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new > link? If so, > > wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? > > > > And what is the purpoe of old CoA? > > Thinking about this a bit more - this is a tricky issue. > link layer address > may not be good, in the case of vertical handovers. Also, > what to do with > IPv4 & possibly NATed addresses? > > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? > > John > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 11:26:03 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01045 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UFPZq21407 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:25:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0X9-0005ZC-1w for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:25:35 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01031 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0Wc-0005WH-6s; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:25:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0W7-0005VC-HV for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:24:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00982 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0W4-0001oM-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:24:28 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0Vq-0001ne-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:24:14 -0400 Message-ID: <005401c33f1a$a5125ed0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: , References: Subject: Re: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:16:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Since Rajeev and Charlie seem to agree that the current design should work together with FMIP, I agree that we should keep the text as is for simplicity. I think there will probably be a period of adjustment after CTP and FMIP are completed in which we investigate interoperability and tune the designs so that they work well together. Probably better to wait until we have the empirical evidence rather than try to figure out everything up front without any. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: RE: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover Protocols > James, > > While you suggestion is a good one, I feel adding it to the > current draft will add more complexity; more error cases, > etc. > > My prefered solution is to get the simple (& basic CTP done). > If bundling CTP messages with FMIP BUs are seen as a good > thing, a seperate extension could be writen up in a draft. > > That would be something that could be handled in one of the > MIP WGs ... > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > > Sent: 28 June, 2003 02:04 > > To: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: [Seamoby] New Issue: Interoperability with other Handover > > Protocols > > > > > > Issue: > > > > Section 3 specifies that CTP runs to a dedicated UDP port. > > There may be > > cases where one would want to optimize wireless signaling (MN > > to AR) to > > avoid multiple messages from various protocols associated > > with different > > aspects of handover (for example, mobility mangement and > > context transfer). > > For this reason, it might be useful to allow the MN to bundle > > the CTAR with > > other handover signaling. For example, if FMIP is being used > > for mobility > > management, it might be useful to bundle CTAR with the FMIP > > BU (details are > > left as an exercise for the researcher). > > > > Suggested Resolution: > > > > Add the following paragraph at the end of Section 3: > > > > In some cases, may be advantageous to bundle the context transfer > > signaling between the MN and network, or between access > > routers, together > > with other handover signaling. For this purpose, the MN may > > bundle the CTAR > > message and the NAR may bundle the CTARR with other handover signaling > > rather than use dedicated UDP port for the protocol. > > Similarly, the PAR and > > NAR may bundle the CTD/CTDR/CTR with other handover signaling. > > > > Comments? > > > > jak > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 11:55:46 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02564 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UFtIR27432 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0zu-00078N-Pw for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02481 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0zs-00028i-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:16 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0zg-00028O-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0zd-00071J-BV; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:55:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X0yi-0006t3-HU for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:54:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02279 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0mL-0001xH-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:41:17 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X0m1-0001wo-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:40:57 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id IAA02401; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5UFeEi22455; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:40:14 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306301540> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdTWWuUb; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:40:12 PDT Message-ID: <3F0059DD.BB44C96A@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:40:13 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Soliman Hesham , "John Loughney (NRC/Helsinki)" CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD References: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0141BB78@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Hesham and John, Soliman Hesham wrote: > The MN's identifier should not be tied to its > IP address or, as you correctly point out, its > MAC address. If the MN needs to be identified, > then a more abstract identifier should be used. > For example, a NAI, IMSI, TMSI, FQDN (?) ...etc. I don't think this is true. I think that the means by which the identification is carried out, should be the same as the means used for the original purpose of the particular protocol. For instance, if a security association is based on IP address, then the identification ought to be by IP address. If PAR knows the mobile node by its MAC address, then that would be useful. I think since we're in the IETF, the IP address will be very handy. > Neither the IP address nor the MAC address are > useful as generic identifiers. All we have to do is identify the mobile node for the purpose of context transfer, not for generic purposes. In fact, the word "identify" is tricky enough. Surely you won't suggest that every context tranfer requires an identity verification with some certificate authority...? Regarding the question: > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? I sincerely hope this approach is not taken. It amounts to excess baggage and almost a license for bloat (if not a mandate for bloat). Also, please remember that contexts come and go, but the mobile node stays "the same". Would you need a session ID per context? Yecch! What, exactly, is the session? Regards, Charlie P. > > Hi James, > > > > > Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. > > If MN has not yet > > > completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed and it > > may not be if there > > > is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly > > confirm a nCoA is > > > currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC > > 2462 DAD may not > > > be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that > > predictive handover > > > is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving > > to the new link > > > or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. > > > > > > Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new > > link? If so, > > > wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? > > > > > > And what is the purpoe of old CoA? > > > > Thinking about this a bit more - this is a tricky issue. > > link layer address > > may not be good, in the case of vertical handovers. Also, > > what to do with > > IPv4 & possibly NATed addresses? > > > > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? > > > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 12:43:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05285 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UGh9710136 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1kD-0002bW-GB for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05268 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1kB-0002YQ-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1k5-0002YN-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1k5-0002aQ-UY; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:43:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1jP-0002YK-1A for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:42:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05199 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1jM-0002XR-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:42:16 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1j6-0002X1-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:42:00 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id JAA05332 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:41:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5UGfA107980; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:41:10 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306301641> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.94, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdYSI601; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:41:08 PDT Message-ID: <3F006825.102B8087@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:41:09 -0700 From: Vijay Devarapalli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com CC: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com, seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > Vija, > > > all right, then. I guess it is better to be conservative. but > > remember people are going to ignore the MUST use ESP requirement > > if they already have a secure channel between the access routers. > > What other secure channel do you mean? AH doesn't protect message > contents, which may be needed if you are transfering AAA or > keying material. TLS is not possible, because we are using UDP. for e.g. > Pekka Savola says: > > In some cases where > context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the same > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, even > lower requirements might be reasonable. Vijay _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 12:48:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05582 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UGm7r11173 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1p1-0002u8-8c for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05562 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1oy-0002c8-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1ot-0002c5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1ov-0002rR-2e; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:48:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X1oB-0002qO-H7 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05476 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:14 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1o9-0002b2-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:13 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X1ny-0002am-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:02 -0400 Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h5UGkua10562 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:46:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:46:56 +0300 Received: from esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.50]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:46:55 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe011.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:46:54 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:46:53 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Thread-Index: AcM/JmtrjgYUz3/8T8atPTUV2ijP0QAALJiA To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 16:46:54.0524 (UTC) FILETIME=[366307C0:01C33F27] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vijay, I did read Pekka's mail - I was actually hoping to know more about this. This isn't required for updating the draft, but for my own knowledge. thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: Vijay Devarapalli [mailto:vijayd@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 30 June, 2003 19:41 > To: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > Cc: Patil Basavaraj (NET/Dallas); seamoby@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs >=20 >=20 > john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > >=20 > > Vija, > >=20 > > > all right, then. I guess it is better to be conservative. but > > > remember people are going to ignore the MUST use ESP requirement > > > if they already have a secure channel between the access routers. > >=20 > > What other secure channel do you mean? AH doesn't protect message > > contents, which may be needed if you are transfering AAA or > > keying material. TLS is not possible, because we are using UDP. >=20 > for e.g. >=20 > > Pekka Savola says: > >=20 > > In some cases where > > context transfers messages are only received from=20 > pAR's/nAR's in the same > > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently=20 > secure medium, even > > lower requirements might be reasonable. >=20 > Vijay >=20 _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 15:40:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13552 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UJe9d18097 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X4VV-0004ho-7L for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13531 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X4VT-0003qE-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X4VO-0003qB-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X4VN-0004gv-EV; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:40:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X4UO-0004g0-Cv for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:39:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13510 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X4UN-0003q6-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:38:59 -0400 Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.96.56]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X4UC-0003pp-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:38:48 -0400 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id OAA19872; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:37:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from slb-hub-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.9.3p2/8.9.2/MBS-AV-02) with ESMTP id OAA20135; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:37:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-01.nw.nos.boeing.com [192.33.62.231]) by slb-hub-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id h5UJbPn13787; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-05.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.42.226.70]) by XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6662); Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:37:06 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:37:05 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Thread-Index: AcM/IEBa0igKPC8KTgGhiKC2FwEjwgAHDQhQ From: "Paine, Richard H" To: "Charles E. Perkins" , "Soliman Hesham" , "John Loughney (NRC/Helsinki)" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 19:37:06.0013 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCE898D0:01C33F3E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You guys continue to have this same discussion and with the same result. = The Internet will always be fundamentally flawed until you have an = identity based on the host identity (HIP-like). All the rest are = patches. The host identity may even mean a host identity for a router.=20 Boeing has an open source HIP implementation and is getting ready to = include it in a prototype called the Secure Mobile Architecture (SMA). = The Open Group published the SMA. =20 http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/context/1203155/0 http://homebase.htt-consult.com/~hip/ Richard H. Paine Success is getting what you want, happiness is liking what you get! Work: 425-865-4921 Pager: 206-797-4580 Cell: 206-854-8199 IPPhone: 425-373-8964 Email: richard.h.paine@boeing.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: Charles E. Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:40 AM To: Soliman Hesham; John Loughney (NRC/Helsinki) Cc: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Hello Hesham and John, Soliman Hesham wrote: > The MN's identifier should not be tied to its > IP address or, as you correctly point out, its > MAC address. If the MN needs to be identified, > then a more abstract identifier should be used. > For example, a NAI, IMSI, TMSI, FQDN (?) ...etc. I don't think this is true. I think that the means by which the identification is carried out, should be the same as the means used for the original purpose of the particular protocol. For instance, if a security association is based on IP address, then the identification ought to be by IP address. If PAR knows the mobile node by its MAC address, then that would be useful. I think since we're in the IETF, the IP address will be very handy. > Neither the IP address nor the MAC address are > useful as generic identifiers. All we have to do is identify the mobile node for the purpose of context transfer, not for generic purposes. In fact, the word "identify" is tricky enough. Surely you won't suggest that every context tranfer requires an identity verification with some certificate authority...? Regarding the question: > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? I sincerely hope this approach is not taken. It amounts to excess baggage and almost a license for bloat (if not a mandate for bloat). Also, please remember that contexts come and go, but the mobile node stays "the same". Would you need a session ID per context? Yecch! What, exactly, is the session? Regards, Charlie P. > > Hi James, > > > > > Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. > If > MN has not yet > > completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed=20 > and it > may not be if there > > > is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly > > confirm a nCoA is > > > currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC > > 2462 DAD may not > > > be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that > > predictive handover > > > is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving > > to the new link > > > or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. > > > > > > Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new > > link? If so, > > > wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? > > > > > > And what is the purpoe of old CoA? > > > > Thinking about this a bit more - this is a tricky issue. > > link layer address > > may not be good, in the case of vertical handovers. Also, > > what to do with > > IPv4 & possibly NATed addresses? > > > > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? > > > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 16:46:37 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15205 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UKk8630026 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5XM-0007oD-O7 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15171 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5XK-0004Bs-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5XF-0004Bp-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5XE-0007nA-Q4; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:46:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5WI-0007mY-UY for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15032 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <042b01c33f47$ba16f340$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:39:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] CARD Design Team Now Concluded Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, The CARD design team has now finished. The draft has been posted to the Internet Drafts directory, and is available from the following link: http://www.ccrle.nec.de/I-D/draft-ietf-seamoby-card-protocol-02.txt Pat and I would like to thank Marco Liebsch, Ajoy Singh, Daichi Funato, Hemat Chaskar, and Eunsoo Shim for their hard work on producing the document. Marco and Ajoy have agreed to be co-editors and will be collecting issues and posting a Web page to help resolve them prior to sending the document to the IESG. I will be sending the document to the Seamoby Design Review Board shortly for detailed review. I'd also like to remind the WG that we are attempting to finish up Seamoby's work items and close the WG down, hopefully by the end of the year, so we need to move quickly on reviewing CARD. WG members should also read the document carefully and post comments to the list. We will be discussing the document and issues at IETF 57 in Vienna. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 17:21:38 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16888 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ULLBC07727 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X65H-00020Y-39 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16877 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X65E-0004SZ-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X659-0004SW-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X658-0001zn-7o; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:21:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X64p-0001zH-DW for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:20:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16865 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X64n-0004SP-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:20:41 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X64c-0004SI-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:20:30 -0400 Message-ID: <048f01c33f4c$ad050e80$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: , , Cc: References: Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:15:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I think all the draft needs to say is that: - IPsec must be used to protect interrouter traffic, for both confidentiality and authenticaton, if security is required. - whether AH/ESP authentication or ESP encryption is used depends on the particular deployment situation and threat (i.e. if any traffic traverses the Internet for whatever reason, then ESP encryption should be used). I don't think that the draft should let it open as to the security method if security is required. Of course, it is up to the network operator whether or not they want to deploy security. jak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:20 PM Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > Hi all, > > So, thus far we have: > > 2 people saying (Basavaraj & Vija): > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > is used. > > Antti Tuomin says: > > Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel > for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and > (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say > "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header > (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give > confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to > use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 > uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all > the entities. > > Hesham says, in answer to the question", Do folks think that mandatory IPsec > is reasonable here?" > > Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I > mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic > will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the > transport protocol for CTP). > > Pekka Savola says: > > So, the model how security is used must be re-thought. It would seem to > be the safest to say that AH (or maybe ESP, dunno) *MUST* be used for all > message types, and describe different issues there. In some cases where > context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the same > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, even > lower requirements might be reasonable. > > So, I cannot say we have consensus on this subject. However, in absence > of compelling info, I tend to be conservative on security issues. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] > > Sent: 27 June, 2003 23:37 > > To: vijayd@iprg.nokia.com; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > > > > > > > > > negotiation between the access router could be > > > > > > 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would > > > say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > and destination = another AR (or could be any) > > > negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm > > > > > > or it could say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 > > > > > > > > > 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need > > > administrators to be involved. then the security policy > > > would say > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > use SA_something. > > > > > > the SA would have the appropriate information. > > > > > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > > > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > > > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > > > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > > > is used. it would be enough to simply say > > > > > > The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity > > > protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the > > > Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > Routers. > > > > > > > I agree with what Vijay is saying here. It is sufficient to > > specify that IPsec be used for securing CTP messages between > > ARs. > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > -Basavaraj > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 17:38:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17391 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ULc8t12258 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6Lg-0003Bd-CS for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17376 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6Ld-0004ZC-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6LY-0004Z6-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6LZ-00038H-Qa; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6LQ-00037d-79 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17370 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6LN-0004Z0-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:49 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6LC-0004Yw-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:39 -0400 Message-ID: <04cd01c33f4f$12b42cf0$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: , References: Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:32:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:03 AM Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD > Hi James, > > > Issue 12 questions including the MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD. If MN has not yet > > completed DAD, then the address is not confirmed and it may not be if there > > is a conflict (note however that exactly how to quickly confirm a nCoA is > > currently a topic of heavy discussion on the MIP list, RFC 2462 DAD may not > > be done). There seems to be an assumption built in that predictive handover > > is occuring, and the MN will know its CoA prior to moving to the new link > > or, if not predictive, then immediately on coming on link. > > > > Was this intended as an identifier for the MN on the new link? If so, > > wouldn't a more stable identifier be the MN's link layer address? > > > > And what is the purpoe of old CoA? > > Thinking about this a bit more - this is a tricky issue. link layer address > may not be good, in the case of vertical handovers. Also, what to do with > IPv4 & possibly NATed addresses? > Good point. > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? > No, we want to minimize state in the network. I suppose sticking with the IP addresses is probably the only possible solution at this point. In some cases (viz IPv6 reactive handover) there may be no new CoA yet. Something like HIP would certainly help here, but we can't depend on having it at this point. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 17:38:36 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17393 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5ULc8W12352 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6Lg-0003Bu-HT for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17378 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6Ld-0004Z9-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6LY-0004Z5-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6LZ-00037r-DC; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:38:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X6Ks-0002w6-8K for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17301 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6Kp-0004Yg-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:15 -0400 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com ([205.226.5.12]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X6KZ-0004YQ-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:37:00 -0400 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA20142; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h5ULa2p24742; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:36:02 -0700 X-mProtect: <200306302136> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd2ZuYLs; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:36:00 PDT Message-ID: <3F00AD40.93DDE7FA@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:36:00 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf CC: seamoby@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs References: <048f01c33f4c$ad050e80$636015ac@dclkempt40> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim, This makes a lot of sense to me. Regards, Charlie P. James Kempf wrote: > > John, > > I think all the draft needs to say is that: > - IPsec must be used to protect interrouter traffic, for both > confidentiality and authenticaton, if security is required. > - whether AH/ESP authentication or ESP encryption is used depends on the > particular deployment situation and threat (i.e. if any traffic traverses > the Internet for whatever reason, then ESP encryption should be used). > I don't think that the draft should let it open as to the security method if > security is required. Of course, it is up to the network operator whether or > not they want to deploy security. > > jak > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:20 PM > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > > > Hi all, > > > > So, thus far we have: > > > > 2 people saying (Basavaraj & Vija): > > > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > > is used. > > > > Antti Tuomin says: > > > > Section 2. paragraph 3 says: "CT peers to utilize a secure channel > > for transferring contexts, providing authentication, integrity, and > > (if needed) confidentiality." Subsection 2.4.2 and 2.4.3 say > > "message SHOULD be protected by use of IPsec Authentication Header > > (AH)". Couldn't you just use ESP? AH alone is not able to give > > confidentiality mentioned earlier. Is there a specific reason to > > use AH (like need for IP header authentication)? Also, Mobile IPv6 > > uses ESP, so the chances are that ESP is already implemented in all > > the entities. > > > > Hesham says, in answer to the question", Do folks think that mandatory > IPsec > > is reasonable here?" > > > > Yes. And you need to specify how to do that. I > > mean, a side effect of this would be that all UDP traffic > > will be secure (from a quick read I saw that UDP is the > > transport protocol for CTP). > > > > Pekka Savola says: > > > > So, the model how security is used must be re-thought. It would seem to > > be the safest to say that AH (or maybe ESP, dunno) *MUST* be used for all > > message types, and describe different issues there. In some cases where > > context transfers messages are only received from pAR's/nAR's in the same > > security domain (e.g. single ISP), over a sufficiently secure medium, > even > > lower requirements might be reasonable. > > > > So, I cannot say we have consensus on this subject. However, in absence > > of compelling info, I tend to be conservative on security issues. > > > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ext Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] > > > Sent: 27 June, 2003 23:37 > > > To: vijayd@iprg.nokia.com; Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > > > Cc: seamoby@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue3: Specifying IPsec between ARs > > > > > > > > > > > > > negotiation between the access router could be > > > > > > > > 1. run IKE. the security policy on the access routers would > > > > say > > > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > > and destination = another AR (or could be any) > > > > negotiate ESP in transport mode with a particular algorithm > > > > > > > > or it could say > > > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > > negotiate AH in transport mode with HMAC_SHA1 > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. manual keying between the access routers. this would need > > > > administrators to be involved. then the security policy > > > > would say > > > > > > > > if protocol = CTP message (UDP with some additional info) > > > > use SA_something. > > > > > > > > the SA would have the appropriate information. > > > > > > > > my point, there is nothing special that CTP requires of > > > > IPsec or IKE. there is no need to specify anything extra. > > > > and CTP shouldnt also care if IKE/IKEv2/manual keying is > > > > used. it shouldnt care which IPsec protocol (AH or ESP) > > > > is used. it would be enough to simply say > > > > > > > > The Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > > Routers require per-packet authentication and integrity > > > > protection. Therefore IPsec MUST be used to protect the > > > > Context Transfer Protocol messages between the Access > > > > Routers. > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what Vijay is saying here. It is sufficient to > > > specify that IPsec be used for securing CTP messages between > > > ARs. > > > > > > > Vijay > > > > > > > > > > -Basavaraj > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seamoby mailing list > > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seamoby mailing list > > Seamoby@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seamoby mailing list > Seamoby@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 19:44:04 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22669 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UNhY406814 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:43:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X8J4-0001lp-M2 for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:43:34 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22654 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X8IW-0001hk-UD; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:43:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X8Hs-0001gX-L6 for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:42:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22618 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X8Hq-0005JU-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:42:18 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com ident=fwuser) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X8Hf-0005JI-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:42:08 -0400 Message-ID: <062c01c33f60$6c06ef70$636015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:36:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Seamoby] CT: [New Editorial Issue] Need a Contributors Section Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Seamoby Review Board was explicitly solicited for and provided detailed commentary on the CT draft. As such, the contribution of the review board members should receive a larger acknowledgement (as should that for anybody else who took the time to read through the whole draft and write up a list of detailed comments). Therefore, the names of the Review Board members should be included in a Contributors section. The following describes this section (from draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-06.txt): An RFC may include a Contributors section, listing those contributors who deserve significant credit for the document contents. The Contributors section is intended to provide a level of recognition greater than an acknowledgment and nearly equal to listing on the front page. The choice of either, both, or none of Contributor and Acknowledgment sections in a particular RFC depends upon the circumstance. Contributors to the CT review were Basavaraj Patil, Pekka Savola, and Atti Tuominen. Note that we are also attempting to get the names of the Review Board on the Seamoby Web page, but the change is currently on hold pending AD review. jak _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 23:18:01 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27932 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h613HWv21433 for seamoby-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XBe8-0005Zc-5y for seamoby-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27920 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XBe0-0006Yu-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:24 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XBdl-0006Yj-00 for seamoby-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XBdd-0005Yj-Tl; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XBdS-0005YG-9F for seamoby@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:16:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA27900 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:16:48 -0400 (EDT) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XBdL-0006YX-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:16:43 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com ([131.228.20.21]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XBcu-0006YJ-00 for seamoby@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:16:17 -0400 Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h613Fna07793 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:15:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:15:49 +0300 Received: from esebe020.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.59]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:15:49 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe020.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:15:48 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:15:47 +0300 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Seamoby] Issue 12: Inclusion of MN's nCoA in CTAR or CTD Thread-Index: AcM/T9dB/ApQGnrsT1C0YDHZ4MXJ3gALygIg To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2003 03:15:48.0808 (UTC) FILETIME=[11C5D480:01C33F7F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: seamoby-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: seamoby-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: seamoby@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Context Transfer, Handoff Candidate Discovery, and Dormant Mode Host Alerting List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, > > Do we need to have a stable Session ID of some sort that is used? > > >=20 > No, we want to minimize state in the network. >=20 > I suppose sticking with the IP addresses is probably the only possible > solution at this point. In some cases (viz IPv6 reactive handover) = there may > be no new CoA yet. Something like HIP would certainly help here, but = we > can't depend on having it at this point. Sounds fine with me. John _______________________________________________ Seamoby mailing list Seamoby@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/seamoby