From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Sun May 11 18:01:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4803A6967 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MjdpF3fAa+L9 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 18:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3A43A6774 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 18:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 6D60C63B219; Mon, 12 May 2008 01:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from prunille.vinc17.org (vinc17.pck.nerim.net [213.41.242.187]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEC263B20C for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 01:01:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by prunille.vinc17.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 01C26225401E; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:00:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 02:00:56 +0200 From: Vincent Lefevre To: Jeffrey Hutzelman Cc: Nicolas Williams , Bill Sommerfeld , Colin Watson , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> X-Mailer-Info: http://www.vinc17.org/mutt/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17-vl-r21552 (2008-04-09) Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On 2006-01-02 18:20:50 -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > One could argue that an SSH server running on such a system should look > at the configured locale and configure the PTY appropriately, and that's > probably even a good idea. What "configured locale"? The user may use a locale which is not the default one at the system level. Perhaps you mean that the SSH client should propagate the locale (more precisely, the charmap) to the remote side, so that the SSH server can use it (in which case the server should make this information available at the user level too, as it can be useful to set up the LC_CTYPE environment variable). -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Sun May 11 19:01:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3133A676A for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 19:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXXBqMb3FzL6 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 19:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF1A3A63EC for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 19:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 0E0FE63B18E; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:01:00 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.43.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5D663B1FC for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:00:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dm-central-02.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.5]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m4C20v5J021952 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:00:57 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-02.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m4C20uFm047580 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 20:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m4C20uOo024302; Sun, 11 May 2008 21:00:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m4C20tSR024301; Sun, 11 May 2008 21:00:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:00:55 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams To: Vincent Lefevre Cc: Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , Colin Watson , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 02:00:56AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2006-01-02 18:20:50 -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > One could argue that an SSH server running on such a system should look > > at the configured locale and configure the PTY appropriately, and that's > > probably even a good idea. > > What "configured locale"? The user may use a locale which is not the Whatever the locale for that channel/session/whatever. > default one at the system level. Perhaps you mean that the SSH client > should propagate the locale (more precisely, the charmap) to the SunSSH 1.1 does (by having the client set per-channel LANG/LC_* environment variables). It's less than perfect: the client has no idea what a client-side locale maps to on the server side. Also, it's not just character sets that matter, but language for localization of messages, date formats, etc... Nico -- From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Sun May 11 20:44:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DC33A63CB for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 20:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCpQALJc0FDC for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 20:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41533A6B42 for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 20:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id C7E2A63B23D; Mon, 12 May 2008 03:44:47 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from wilbur.25thandClement.com (wilbur.25thandClement.com [208.96.11.245]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.25thandClement.com", Issuer "25thandClement.com" (not verified)) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D51063B18E for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 03:44:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wilbur.25thandClement.com (william@localhost.25thandClement.com [127.0.0.1]) by wilbur.25thandClement.com (8.14.0/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m4C2HlQS026899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 May 2008 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from william@localhost) by wilbur.25thandClement.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/Submit) id m4C2HlhL013416 for ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org; Sun, 11 May 2008 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 19:17:46 -0700 From: William Ahern To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512021746.GA3562@wilbur.25thandClement.com> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (wilbur.25thandClement.com [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 11 May 2008 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 02:00:56AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2006-01-02 18:20:50 -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > One could argue that an SSH server running on such a system should look > > at the configured locale and configure the PTY appropriately, and that's > > probably even a good idea. > > What "configured locale"? The user may use a locale which is not the > default one at the system level. Perhaps you mean that the SSH client > should propagate the locale (more precisely, the charmap) to the Not more precisely. That's less precise on so many levels ;) Locale is merely incomplete. Locale and encoding are distinct, _particularly_ as regards Unicode, and perhaps even for some ISO 2022 "character sets". Strictly speaking, a character map has nothing to do with formatting, etc, nor is it synonymous with encoding. UTF-8 is, I suppose, assumed over an 8-bit channel. But UTF-7 or some other scheme is equally possible; UTF-7 is plausible, even. UTF-16 likely. Many systems will employ both UTF-8 and UTF-16 together; UTF-16 (for historical misunderstandings which pertain to this very discussion, but also practically because for Asian languages it's slightly more efficient) is the internal encoding for most heavy Unicode APIs--like Java, C#, and IBM's ICU. It doesn't make sense to assume applications will always translate UTF-8 on both sides to/from UTF-16 over the opaque data channel. In practice, of course, the "locale" environment variable often specifies both locale and encoding. But the distinction should be made, because I18N continues to get botched by standards and implementation groups. From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 02:19:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B44B3A67DF for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KuHXb6SZTxsF for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393F33A6782 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 4D45263B1EB; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:19:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from fizeau.zen.co.uk (fizeau.zen.co.uk [212.23.8.67]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE96E63B115 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:19:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [212.23.3.141] (helo=heisenberg.zen.co.uk) by fizeau.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JvUBn-0000uS-8M for ietf-ssh@netbsd.org; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:19:23 +0000 Received: from [82.69.40.219] (helo=riva.pelham.vpn.ucam.org) by heisenberg.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JvUBG-00021X-G4; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:18:50 +0000 Received: from cjwatson by riva.pelham.vpn.ucam.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1JvUBG-0004qb-00; Mon, 12 May 2008 10:18:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:18:50 +0100 From: Colin Watson To: Vincent Lefevre Cc: Nicolas Williams , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512091849.GR16645@riva.ucam.org> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Originating-Heisenberg-IP: [82.69.40.219] Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:07:47AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2008-05-11 21:00:55 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 02:00:56AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > > > default one at the system level. Perhaps you mean that the SSH client > > > should propagate the locale (more precisely, the charmap) to the > > > > SunSSH 1.1 does (by having the client set per-channel LANG/LC_* > > environment variables). OpenSSH, as configured in Debian, does this too. > I meant in a way that always works in practice. > > > It's less than perfect: the client has no idea what a client-side > > locale maps to on the server side. > > Yes, that's the problem: it's not always possible to rebuild a correct > LC_CTYPE on the remote side, e.g. if LC_CTYPE is "en_US", one doesn't > have information about the charset on the remote side. Locale names are indeed opaque as far as POSIX is concerned, so there's no portable way to pick them apart. But even if locale names are in principle identical (i.e. client and server running the same release of the same operating system), there's a further problem. With glibc, locale definitions are quite large (thus inconvenient to distribute in pre-generated form) and take some time to generate, so it's fairly common for distributions to set things up so that you only generate the locale definitions you need. The locale you're using on the client may simply not exist on the server. Now, in some ways this does end up invoking undefined behaviour; you're asking for a locale that doesn't exist. Messages will of course end up being output in the C locale, and so on. But it is *terribly* useful to at least get the character encoding right, as otherwise you get hopeless garbage on the screen and it may well not be very obvious what the problem is. This is compounded by the fact that there is no equivalent of "C" for UTF-8 in glibc: that is, there's no way to say "I just want a basically unlocalised system that happens to use the UTF-8 encoding for everything". Thus even people who don't care about localisation have to select something like en_US.UTF-8 or en_GB.UTF-8, and any time they ssh to a server that doesn't have those locales generated they end up with screwed-up output from full-screen terminal applications. > > Also, it's not just character sets that matter, but language for > > localization of messages, date formats, etc... > > Well, localization of messages and date formats are just a user choice. > If they are different on the remote side, this isn't really a problem. > Concerning the character set, the remote one must be compatible with > the local one, at least when a terminal is used (ditto for the IUTF8 > pseudo-terminal mode). Otherwise the user can't view or edit non-ASCII > characters correctly. Absolutely. -- Colin Watson [cjwatson@debian.org] From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 02:35:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91D23A6785 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:35:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cxr--uXdhGE8 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA5328C246 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 02:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id E852F63B150; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:07:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from prunille.vinc17.org (vinc17.pck.nerim.net [213.41.242.187]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C0063B14E for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:07:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by prunille.vinc17.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3976D22559AE; Mon, 12 May 2008 10:07:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:07:47 +0200 From: Vincent Lefevre To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , Colin Watson , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> X-Mailer-Info: http://www.vinc17.org/mutt/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17-vl-r21552 (2008-04-09) Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On 2008-05-11 21:00:55 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 02:00:56AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > > default one at the system level. Perhaps you mean that the SSH client > > should propagate the locale (more precisely, the charmap) to the > > SunSSH 1.1 does (by having the client set per-channel LANG/LC_* > environment variables). I meant in a way that always works in practice. > It's less than perfect: the client has no idea what a client-side > locale maps to on the server side. Yes, that's the problem: it's not always possible to rebuild a correct LC_CTYPE on the remote side, e.g. if LC_CTYPE is "en_US", one doesn't have information about the charset on the remote side. > Also, it's not just character sets that matter, but language for > localization of messages, date formats, etc... Well, localization of messages and date formats are just a user choice. If they are different on the remote side, this isn't really a problem. Concerning the character set, the remote one must be compatible with the local one, at least when a terminal is used (ditto for the IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode). Otherwise the user can't view or edit non-ASCII characters correctly. -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 06:14:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D777128C21C for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 06:14:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C5hWNStoEQrx for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 06:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78923A6906 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 06:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id A244D63B2B8; Mon, 12 May 2008 13:14:12 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA [216.46.5.7]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FAA63B14B for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 13:14:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28809; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200805121314.JAA28809@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. X-Message-Flag: Microsoft: the company who gave us the botnet zombies. Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:03:57 -0400 (EDT) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode In-Reply-To: <20080512091849.GR16645@riva.ucam.org> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512091849.GR16645@riva.ucam.org> Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list > This is compounded by the fact that there is no equivalent of "C" for > UTF-8 in glibc: that is, there's no way to say "I just want a > basically unlocalised system that happens to use the UTF-8 encoding > for everything". I suspect part of the reason for this is the difference between octet streams and character streams. Older Unices, and even some current ones, don't use character strings for things like usernames and filenames. They use octet strings, with conversion to characters happening very late on display and conversion from characters happening very early on input, getting whatever octet<->character mapping the display and input devices happen to use. And that doesn't work at all well when you have an octet<->character mapping that doesn't map each to exactly one of the other - such as UTF-8. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 07:36:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D288828C265 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 07:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DKfbm1PmvCGc for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 07:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD3F28C22D for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 07:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id EE48263B309; Mon, 12 May 2008 14:35:57 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.43.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4EC63B26E for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 14:35:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dm-central-01.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.4]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m4CEZlYO009663 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 14:35:48 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-01.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m4CEZkY4043823 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:35:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m4CEZkvs024477; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m4CEZkfO024476; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:35:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:35:46 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams To: Vincent Lefevre Cc: Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , Colin Watson , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512143545.GD13552@Sun.COM> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:07:47AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2008-05-11 21:00:55 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > > SunSSH 1.1 does (by having the client set per-channel LANG/LC_* > > environment variables). > > I meant in a way that always works in practice. It tends to, though only by dint of luck. > > It's less than perfect: the client has no idea what a client-side > > locale maps to on the server side. > > Yes, that's the problem: it's not always possible to rebuild a correct > LC_CTYPE on the remote side, e.g. if LC_CTYPE is "en_US", one doesn't > have information about the charset on the remote side. There should be a way. SSHv2 already negotiates languages. A negotiation of charsets per-channel wouldn't be too difficult to add. > > Also, it's not just character sets that matter, but language for > > localization of messages, date formats, etc... > > Well, localization of messages and date formats are just a user choice. Yes, but the user doesn't want to be making that choice all the time. What if the user reads three languages and doesn't know which the remote server has localizations for? What if the user doesn't have "dot files" on the server? It'd be nice if the client and server could just settle on a locale that meets the user's needs with no additional input from the user. > If they are different on the remote side, this isn't really a problem. Yes it is. > Concerning the character set, the remote one must be compatible with > the local one, at least when a terminal is used (ditto for the IUTF8 > pseudo-terminal mode). Otherwise the user can't view or edit non-ASCII > characters correctly. I agree with the first point, but not necessarily with the second (the client can always put the local terminal into raw mode and let the server-side IUTF8 mode take over). Nico -- From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 08:10:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580143A6AB4 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id msXJ5FFmPBZe for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32B23A6804 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 08:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id A3C2663B26E; Mon, 12 May 2008 15:10:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.43.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448963B36E for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 15:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dm-central-01.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.4]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m4CFA69l024491 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 15:10:07 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-01.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m4CFA6QU010349 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:10:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m4CFA6uw024523; Mon, 12 May 2008 10:10:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m4CFA53p024522; Mon, 12 May 2008 10:10:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:10:05 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams To: Colin Watson Cc: Vincent Lefevre , Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512151005.GI13552@Sun.COM> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512091849.GR16645@riva.ucam.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080512091849.GR16645@riva.ucam.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:18:50AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:07:47AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > > OpenSSH, as configured in Debian, does this too. Good! > Locale names are indeed opaque as far as POSIX is concerned, so there's Well, no, there's a bit of rhyme and reason to [some] POSIX locale names -- it just isn't used for all locale names. But point taken: to implement a decent locale negotiation protocol one would need an API by which to ask questions about a locale name (what charset, what language, what collation, ...). > no portable way to pick them apart. But even if locale names are in > principle identical (i.e. client and server running the same release of > the same operating system), there's a further problem. With glibc, > locale definitions are quite large (thus inconvenient to distribute in > pre-generated form) and take some time to generate, so it's fairly > common for distributions to set things up so that you only generate the > locale definitions you need. The locale you're using on the client may > simply not exist on the server. Right. Add in the fact that users can, and often do speak/read multiple languages, and there's a real need to negotiate locales. SSHv2 already has a language negotiation facility for localization of server messages intended for the user; it's a start. So, given a decent locale API one could take the charset of the locale requested by the user and the languages negotiated for the session, and search for a best match locale on the server-side. But still, remotely setting a channel's LC_*/LANG is a pretty poor way of dealing with this problem. For one, it isn't documented in any RFC, so you can't expect implementors to know what to do with it. > This is compounded by the fact that there is no equivalent of "C" for > UTF-8 in glibc: that is, there's no way to say "I just want a basically Nor in Solaris. > > Well, localization of messages and date formats are just a user choice. > > If they are different on the remote side, this isn't really a problem. If I can't read the messages then they aren't helpful, but yeah, at the very least they should display properly. Nico -- From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Mon May 12 09:25:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2932C3A6AEA for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLxKvhtbrzl3 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.netbsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D643A6818 for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 4F28663B370; Mon, 12 May 2008 16:25:36 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from prunille.vinc17.org (vinc17.pck.nerim.net [213.41.242.187]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39A463B36B for ; Mon, 12 May 2008 16:25:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by prunille.vinc17.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 702AC22573B6; Mon, 12 May 2008 18:25:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:25:33 +0200 From: Vincent Lefevre To: Nicolas Williams Cc: Jeffrey Hutzelman , Bill Sommerfeld , Colin Watson , ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org, 337041@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: IUTF8 pseudo-terminal mode Message-ID: <20080512162533.GW10378@prunille.vinc17.org> References: <20051231160559.GK4231@riva.ucam.org> <1136240979.12972.48.camel@thunk> <20060102224358.GE18698@binky.Central.Sun.COM> <6EEB1C8BF6320CE0BC7A70D9@bistromath.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080512000056.GA10460@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512020055.GC13552@Sun.COM> <20080512080747.GT10378@prunille.vinc17.org> <20080512143545.GD13552@Sun.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20080512143545.GD13552@Sun.COM> X-Mailer-Info: http://www.vinc17.org/mutt/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17-vl-r21552 (2008-04-09) Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On 2008-05-12 09:35:46 -0500, Nicolas Williams wrote: > What if the user reads three languages and doesn't know which the remote > server has localizations for? What if the user doesn't have "dot files" > on the server? There's also the problem that if the user shell is bash, the .bashrc (or .bash_profile) isn't always read (fortunately, Debian's bash doesn't have this problem). > It'd be nice if the client and server could just settle on a locale > that meets the user's needs with no additional input from the user. If full locale negociation could be added to SSH, this would be great. > > If they are different on the remote side, this isn't really a problem. > > Yes it is. Well, less than the charset problem. BTW, I generally want some of my locales to be defined locally on each machine. For instance, I use LC_TIME=en_DK (to have ISO-8601 dates) under Linux, but this locale doesn't exist under Mac OS X; worse than that, if I try to use it under Mac OS X, it makes a terrible mess. > > Concerning the character set, the remote one must be compatible with > > the local one, at least when a terminal is used (ditto for the IUTF8 > > pseudo-terminal mode). Otherwise the user can't view or edit non-ASCII > > characters correctly. > > I agree with the first point, but not necessarily with the second (the > client can always put the local terminal into raw mode and let the > server-side IUTF8 mode take over). I don't understand, or is it just that this isn't implemented in OpenSSH yet? -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Wed May 21 16:22:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662353A6A1C for ; Wed, 21 May 2008 16:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char E1 hex): Subject: software para inserir \341udio no site\n X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.011 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, DRUGS_MUSCLE=0.01, FRT_SOMA2=2.199, MANGLED_SOMA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BDrB4XxiaaUT for ; Wed, 21 May 2008 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D273A6966 for ; Wed, 21 May 2008 16:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id D882963B198; Wed, 21 May 2008 23:22:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from info2.gawab.com (info2.gawab.com [204.97.230.46]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB50763B151 for ; Wed, 21 May 2008 23:22:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 28208 invoked by uid 1004); 21 May 2008 21:32:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO desktop) (dvgma3@gawab.com@189.12.57.192) by gawab.com with SMTP; 21 May 2008 21:32:06 -0000 X-Trusted: Whitelisted To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org From: "G.C." 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From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Thu May 22 13:29:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBA23A6AF9 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7z60rheiykhe for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCAF3A690C for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id D570263B380; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:29:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:6b0:17:f0a0:202:b3ff:fe35:7167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0010C63B3BC for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:29:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ED2200A396 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.lysator.liu.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lenin.lysator.liu.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 07074-01-12 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (sellafield.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.103]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.lysator.liu.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2C9200A218 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sellafield.lysator.liu.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m4MKTKgP001809 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:20 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from nisse@localhost) by sellafield.lysator.liu.se (8.13.4+Sun/8.12.8/Submit) id m4MKTK35001808; Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:20 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: sellafield.lysator.liu.se: nisse set sender to nisse@lysator.liu.se using -f To: ietf-ssh@netbsd.org Subject: Questions on X11 forwarding From: nisse@lysator.liu.se (Niels =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:29:19 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1008 (Gnus v5.10.8) Emacs/21.3 (usg-unix-v) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at lysator.liu.se Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list I'm now reimplementing X11 forwarding, and I have some questions. There are two other known problems which have been discussed earlier: 1. It would make more sense to *not* have any authentication info in this message, and instead put the responsibility of setting up proper authentication on the server. Then one also gets rid of the wart that the cookie must be hex-encoded. 2. The channel open message, byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_OPEN string "x11" uint32 sender channel uint32 initial window size uint32 maximum packet size string originator address (e.g., "192.168.7.38") uint32 originator port should really include a channel id of the session for whch the forwarding was set up (or some other id that lets the client distinguish between several active x11 forwardings). I haven't been active on this list for a while. I remember somebody proposing some solution for the second problem. Has there been any progress made? Something along the lines of byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_REQUEST uint32 recipient channel string "x11-req-foo" boolean want reply boolean single connection uint32 x11 screen number byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_OPEN string "x11-foo" uint32 sender channel uint32 initial window size uint32 maximum packet size uint32 corresponding session channel string originator address (e.g., "192.168.7.38") uint32 originator port Has anybody else already implemented something like that? Regards, /Niels From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Thu May 22 13:53:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB03428C111 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.098, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L9OS9pefxDwo for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51C528C0E7 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 2F05B63B20D; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:53:38 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE79563B1CE for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:53:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dm-central-01.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.4]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m4MKrZ7L005771 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:53:35 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-01.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id m4MKrZ6n007059 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 14:53:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m4MKrZE9007565; Thu, 22 May 2008 15:53:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.1+Sun/8.14.1/Submit) id m4MKrYZ6007564; Thu, 22 May 2008 15:53:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.Central.Sun.COM: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 15:53:34 -0500 From: Nicolas Williams To: Niels =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?= Cc: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Questions on X11 forwarding Message-ID: <20080522205334.GX26388@Sun.COM> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:29:19PM +0200, Niels Möller wrote: > 1. It would make more sense to *not* have any authentication info in > this message, and instead put the responsibility of setting up > proper authentication on the server. Then one also gets rid of the > wart that the cookie must be hex-encoded. I agree. And I agree with (2) as well. > I haven't been active on this list for a while. I remember somebody > proposing some solution for the second problem. Has there been any > progress made? Something along the lines of There's been very little activity on the list. > byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_REQUEST > uint32 recipient channel > string "x11-req-foo" > boolean want reply > boolean single connection > uint32 x11 screen number > > byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_OPEN > string "x11-foo" > uint32 sender channel > uint32 initial window size > uint32 maximum packet size > uint32 corresponding session channel > string originator address (e.g., "192.168.7.38") > uint32 originator port > > Has anybody else already implemented something like that? No, but I support this. Nico -- From bounces-ietf-ssh-owner-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive=lists.ietf.org@NetBSD.org Thu May 22 13:59:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-secsh-tyoxbijeg7-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9403A6A3E for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:59:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98M718Ghurv2 for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netbsd.org (mail.NetBSD.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:4:7:2e0:81ff:fe52:9ab6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0BA3A68AC for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 77E2F63B3C9; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:58:38 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Received: from Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA [216.46.5.7]) by mail.netbsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A16C63B3BD for ; Thu, 22 May 2008 20:58:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25571; Thu, 22 May 2008 16:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200805222058.QAA25571@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. X-Message-Flag: Microsoft: the company who gave us the botnet zombies. Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 16:41:01 -0400 (EDT) To: ietf-ssh@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Questions on X11 forwarding In-Reply-To: References: Sender: ietf-ssh-owner@NetBSD.org List-Id: ietf-ssh Precedence: list > I'm now reimplementing X11 forwarding, and I have some questions. > There are two other known problems which have been discussed earlier: > 1. It would make more sense to *not* have any authentication info in > this message, and instead put the responsibility of setting up > proper authentication on the server. True. But then, please... > 2. The channel open message, > [...] > should really include a channel id of the session for whch the > forwarding was set up (or some other id that lets the client > distinguish between several active x11 forwardings). ...er, you beat me to it. :-) I'd prefer to have an opaque cookie in the request which ise sent back in the channel-open (that way multiple forwarding requests per channel could be useful) but something of the sort is essential enough to me that I implemented a private request for X forwarding to get it. > I haven't been active on this list for a while. I remember somebody > proposing some solution for the second problem. Has there been any > progress made? Well, there's my implementation of X forwarding. :) Here's how it works, largely copied straight out of the private-algs.txt file from moussh. byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_REQUEST uint32 recipient channel string "fixed-x11-req-2@rodents.montreal.qc.ca" boolean want reply boolean just-once uint32 cookie uint32 X screen number ("cookie" has nothing to do with MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1; it's just 32 bits of opaque data which gets reflected back in the CHANNEL_OPEN.) byte SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_OPEN string "fixed-x11@rodents.montreal.qc.ca" uint32 sender channel uint32 initial window size uint32 maximum packet size uint32 cookie string connection family ...connection-family-specific data... where, for TCP connections, the connection family is "tcp" and the family-specific data is string remote host uint32 remote port I envision "local" as a family, too, which would typically correspond to /tmp/.X11-unix/X(num), but haven't yet implemented that. I'm not sure what its additional data would be - nothing, probably. Possibly others, if I ever use an X setup that supports anything other than TCP or local (maybe "decnet" on Ultrix?). There's also fixed-x11-req@rodents-montreal.qc.ca, which is just like the -2 version described above except that it has no just-once flag, semantically equivalent to the -2 version with just-once set false. 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