From nobody Mon May 4 05:30:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703583A0855; Mon, 4 May 2020 05:30:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carlos Bernardos via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158859542340.25402.14656553070841187802@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Carlos Bernardos Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 05:30:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 12:30:24 -0000 Reviewer: Carlos Bernardos Review result: Ready with Nits Thanks a lot for this document. I liked reading it. I have a first generic comment, minor but that I still wanted to make. Section 2 is about SFC Layering Model, which to me seems like an introduction, but not really specifically related to the core topic of the draft. Do we need that section in this draft? Maybe it can be condensed and included as a first part of section 3. The document has a big component of requirements and gap analysis, which brings one question: should the document use normative RFC 2199 language when expressing the requirements? In Section 3.2.1 t is used, for example, but not in other parts. I think some work is needed to make this consistent. I think that the following sentence needs to be reworded: "In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in multiple SFCs." I think the behaviour of SFC-aware nodes that do not support a given OAM operation should be better explained. For example, the sentence "When an SF supports OAM functionality, it is desirable to process the packet and provide an appropriate response to allow end-to-end verification." might be to vague. Table 4 has a small formatting issue in the Classifier row. I think some in-band vs out-band OAM discussion would be interesting to add to the document. From nobody Mon May 4 12:05:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6692B3A12D1; Mon, 4 May 2020 12:05:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Frank Brockners via Datatracker To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Frank Brockners Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 12:05:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 19:05:02 -0000 Reviewer: Frank Brockners Review result: Ready with Nits This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. Comments: Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit reference to multiple instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how availability of a SF is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. This further leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" state (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? Section 3.1.2 SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF deployment" on SF performance measurement? The section only talks about loss and delay as performance criteria. It would be good to state that other performance criteria (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. Section 3.2.1 SFC availability: The current definition is very focused on connectivity verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC transport packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my SFC process the packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the SFC definition, we might not call the SFC available. While 3.2.2 states that "any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make performance measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO the ability for availability checks is probably a prerequisite for performance measurement. Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section only mentions the need for performance measurement. It misses the definition of what SFC performance measurement is. Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the need for the ability to perform performance measurement of the classifier component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? What does performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? Section 3.4. / 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: It would be good to add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for availability/PM which are offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay are used, rather than new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. Section 4. SFC OAM Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 could also include more "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). Section 4.4. Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the connectivity, rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? Section 5.1 OAM Tool Gap Analysis: - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be explained below the table and in section 1.2.1? - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. - "Trace" in the "Trace" column need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? IOAM-Loopback? - IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as such but an IETF WG. Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? Section 6.4.3 IOAM: - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: E.g. IOAM Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM Direct-Export Option Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM Active Flag (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? - The text states "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM be used with the overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, see section 4.4.1 in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. Section 6.4.4 SFC Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft (even calling out the fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that functionality is available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing the references to the expired draft and rather add references to OpenDaylight documents. - IOAM Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC Traceroute as well. Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading through the document ([x] references line number x) – hope that they are helpful in further improving the doc: [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF [176] "OAM Controller" not defined [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest to make things generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. This comment applies throughout the document. [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to physical layer Ethernet OAM (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay network layer/ [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network technologies"? For the underlay network layer several examples are listed. [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? [254] What does "tight coupling" between the link layer and the physical technology mean? [255] Suggest to avoid terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards stay [256] Acronyms "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to always align with the underlay network in the diagram [287] s/may comprise of/may consist of/ [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ [307] s/devices/device/ [308] What is a "controller"? [314] s/includes/include/ [319] Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 [325] s/includes/include/ [359] The function/term "controller" requires definition. [383] s/?./?/ [398] s/get the got/got/ [461] s/devices/device/ [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option for load-balancing? [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the service plane. Isn't it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the SFC-related functions in the service plane? [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove "underlay" [595] s/devices/device/ [600] s/action/an action/ [601] Expand on "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to acronyms in 1.2.1). Is this specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? [630] Mention that for "approximation of packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be applicable, SFC OAM packets would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. [636] Is uppercase "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to acronyms in 1.2.1 [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ [705] What are "underlying layers"? [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. [754] s/packet/packets/ [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ [771] How does this requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a node sends an ICMP reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. NSH. [806] s/function/functions/ [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ [810] s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ [812] s/from last/from the last/ [830] s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ [834] s/with relevant/with the relevant [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC availability check./ [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 acronyms [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 From nobody Mon May 4 21:28:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F02A3A13AE; Mon, 4 May 2020 21:27:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <158865287462.10835.6379624375289404130@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 21:27:54 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 04:27:55 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please address the issues in the (detailed!) Tsvarea review, in particular the bits from section 4 that incorrectly describe the work coming out of IPPM. Additional nits: Sec 3.1.1: s/extendibility/extensibility Sec 3.1.2: there are also “hybrid” methods like IOAM that do not fit the active and passive definitions neatly. 4.1 s/packet to be of variable length packet size/packet to be of variable length 4.1 you are probably not trying to “verify” packet reordering and corruption! I suggest “detect” instead. 6.3 s/is intended to/is intended 6.3 s/in NSH header/in the NSH header 6.4.1 s/describes/describe 6.4.1 s/incrementing the ttl/incrementing ttl 6.4.3 s/using NSH header/using the NSH header 8. s/Any security consideration/Any security considerations 8. Missing period at end of second paragraph 8. s/mechanism/mechanisms From nobody Tue May 5 00:25:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666D43A15B7; Tue, 5 May 2020 00:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=aCubY6LA; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=Ov3oiW8t Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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15.20.2958.030; Tue, 5 May 2020 07:25:32 +0000 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: "sfc@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHV/fQAdQkF3R2Sz0mUzQnlqoJut6hP7YAAgBUFEwCABuID0IACNqMAgCtTLDA= Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:25:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158462513710.15745.11378842050270128613@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.61] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 21508c4e-a488-46a3-badd-08d7f0c57f25 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3686: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0394259C80 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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sfc@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158869377280.13320.2383987200577929565@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Tim Chown Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 08:49:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 15:49:33 -0000 Reviewer: Tim Chown Review result: Has Nits Hi, I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document describes an OAM reference framework for Service Function Chaining (SFC), including an overview, functional requirements, applicability of tools and a gap analysis. Overall, I would say that the document is close to being Ready, but has some minor issues and (a lot of) nits to be checked and resolved. General comments: The general writing style is OK, but there are several (tens of) grammatical errors, most notably missing (in)definite articles. While the RFC Editor would catch these, it would be good to clear them up to minimise the workload on the Editor. I’m surprised we’re at v13 and these haven’t been caught before. The document includes the (new) RFC 2119 statement, but oddly then doesn’t use RFC 2119 language in the requirements section. I was also reading the BIER OAM requirements draft recently, where 2119 language is used. Given the document uses the language elsewhere, it should be consistent one way or the other. I looked at RFC 7665, which defines the SFC architecture. It has an OAM section, 5.7, which could be cited in this document, but more importantly it would be good to check that the text there is in sync and covered by this draft. For example, this draft doesn’t really go into any detail on the in-band and out-of-band architecture parts mentioned in the RFC. Also, certain capabilities in the last paragraph of section 5.7 are not mentioned here, e.g., locking of service functions, or support for vendor-specific or experimental functions. It would be nice if this draft ticked off all the items mentioned in 5.7. Nits: Section 1.2.1 I’d split the SFC acronyms from the non-SFC. While the first five are explained in section 1.4 of RFC 7665 (which could be cited), NSH is not; some explanation would be welcomed (indeed RFC 7665 mentions NSG once, without expanding or explaining the term). Section 2 Examples are given of the underlay and link layers, but not the overlay layer. Can one be added? Section 3.1.1 What is meant by “availability” here, vs “liveness” and “fault detection and isolation” in RFC 7665 section 5.7? “the got expected” -> “the expected” Delete “: lack of extendability” ? Not sure what it means here. Could also say, as per RFC 7665, that application-level OAM is out of scope too (as well as validation tools). 3.4 “Perform availability” -> “perform an availability” 3.5 “And are mostly” -> “and is mostly” Section 4: Should be titled SFC OAM Functional Requirements ? And here I’d expect requirements to be MUST, SHOULD or MAY, as per the BIER OAM example I mentioned. Or if not, some text to be added about relative importance (or not). “One SFC components” -> “one SFC component” 4.2 “Provision continuity” -> “provision a continuity” 4.3 “Trigger action” -> “trigger an action” 5.1 “Check and” -> checks and” 6.1 “With necessary” -> “with the necessary” “As OAM” “as an OAM” 6.2 “If it does” -> “if they do” “Packet to an” -> “packets to an” “Have implication” -> “have an implication” 6.3 “Intended to or” -> intended or” 6.4.1 “Describes the” -> “describe the” “Its explains” -> “They explain” “For connectivity” -> “for the connectivity” “From relevant” -> “from the relevant” “Generate ICMP” -> “generate an ICMP” “In NSH” -> “in the NSH” “From last” -> “from the last” 6.4.2. “Defines” -> “defines a” “Mechanism of using” -> “form of” “Perform continuity” -> “perform the continuity” “For SF” -> “for an SF” “As last” -> “as the last” “In NSH” -> “in the NSH” 6.4.3 “Using NSH” -> “using the NSH” “With O” -> “with the O” 6.4.4 Should we cite an expired draft? Is it still being worked on? Section 8 “From service” -> “from the service” “From SFC” -> “from the SFC” “Any internal attacks” -> “an internal attack” “Mechanism for” -> “mechanisms for” “Component should” -> “components should” “The SF .” -> “the SF.” -- Tim From nobody Tue May 5 21:37:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED583A0D49; Tue, 5 May 2020 21:37:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <158873986143.16057.10343303778004671909@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 21:37:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 04:37:42 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please use the new BCP 14 boilerplate exactly as in RFC 8174. From nobody Tue May 5 22:33:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DF43A0D70; Tue, 5 May 2020 22:32:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Murray Kucherawy Message-ID: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 22:32:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 05:32:26 -0000 Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this is pretty well done. I had little trouble following it and this is my first foray into the realm of SFC. One item I'd like to discuss though. From Section 3.1.1: “On one end of the spectrum, one might argue that an SF is sufficiently available if the service node (physical or virtual) hosting the SF is available and is functional. On the other end of the spectrum, one might argue that the SF's availability can only be concluded if the packet, after passing through the SF, was examined and it was verified that the packet did indeed get the expected service.” I found this a bit surprising, especially given the critical nature of many SF functions. Why would it ever be the case that, say, “well, the hypervisor says the VM is up, so the SF is up” is a safe conclusion? For such a critical component, I would expect only some more complete test is necessary to conclude availability of the SF. Shouldn't we at least be pushing implementers toward the latter end of that spectrum? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I find myself almost suggesting that you don't need the BCP 14 boilerplate or its language at all in this document. You barely use it, and it might not even be needed in the places you do have it especially since this is a framework document and not a protocol document. Finally, lots of editorial stuff: Section 2: * “In Figure 1, the service layer element such as …” -- s/element/elements/ * “The underlay network may comprise of …” -- s/comprise/consist/, or alternatively, s/comprise of/comprise/ * “... nodes but not shown …” -- remove “but”, or s/but/but these/ Section 3, all three numbered list entries: * “... applicable at this component includes …” -- s/includes/include/ Section 3.1.1: OLD: "SF availability is an aspect that raises an interesting question -- How to determine that a service function is available?." NEW: "SF availability is an aspect that raises an interesting question: How does one determine that a service function is available?" * “... the packet did indeed get the got expected service.” -- remove “got” * This section uses both “a SF” and “an SF”. I don’t know which one is grammatically correct, but we should find out and use that. Or, if both are, pick one and be consistent. Section 3.2.1: * “An SFC could be comprised of …” -- either remove “of”, or use “composed of” Section 3.3: * Either capitalize “Classifier” generally, or not at all. Section 3.4: * What constitutes an availability check of the underlay network? You discussed this in 3.1.1, but not here. If this is covered in Section 4.1, a forward reference would be helpful here. Section 3.5: * “... and are mostly transparent …” -- s/are/is/; “network” is singular * What constitutes an availability check of the overlay network? Section 4: * “...for more than one SFC components.” -- use “component”, or change “more than one” to “multiple” Section 4.1: * “Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption.” -- perhaps “detect” would be better than “verify” here Section 4.2: * “Ability to provision continuity check …” -- put an “a” before “continuity” * “... supported by continuity function are as follows:” -- s/function/functions/ Section 4.3: * “... from every transit devices …” -- s/devices/device/ * “Ability to trigger action from …” -- s/action/an action/ Section 5.1: * I would quote “ping” and “trace”. * “Table 3 below is not exhaustive” -- needs a period at the end * Table 3 needs a bit of tidying in terms of alignment. Section 6.1: * “... network layer must mark the packet …” -- why isn’t that a MUST? Section 6.2: * “... skipping an SF might have implication …” -- s/implication/implications/ * “Any SFC-aware node that initiates an OAM packet must set …” -- why isn’t that a MUST? Section 6.3: * “... indicates it as OAM packet …” -- s/as/as an/ Section 6.4.1: * “[RFC0792] and [RFC4443] describes …” -- s/describes/describe/ * “... verify the availability of SF or SFC.” -- s/SF/an SF/ * “... can generate ICMP echo …” -- s/ICMP/an ICMP/ * “... from last SFF and thereby …” -- add comma after “SFF” * “Alternately, … Alernatively, … ” -- use “Alternatively” for the first one, and “or” for the second, all in one sentence Section 6.4.2: * “[RFC5880] defines Bidirectional …” -- s/defines/defines the/ * “... to perform continuity function …” -- “functions”, or “the continuity function” * “... value as last SFF …” -- s/last/the last/ * “... with relevant DIAG code.” -- s/with/with the/ (or “a”) Section 6.4.3: * “... transported using NSH header.” -- s/using/using the/ Section 6.4.4: * “... is implemented in Open Daylight and available.” -- s/and/and is/ Section 7: * Table 4 needs some work on spacing consistency. Section 8: * “... are applicable for this document.” -- s/are/is/, as “consideration” is singular * “The OAM information from service layer …” -- s/from/from the/ * “... service function paths etc.” -- s/paths etc./paths, etc./ * “... information from SFC layer raises a need for careful security considerations” -- s/from/from the/, and the sentence is missing a period * “... SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism …” -- s/mechanism/mechanisms/ * “... the OAM solution for SF component should …” -- s/component/components/ From nobody Wed May 6 05:24:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791693A00C1; Wed, 6 May 2020 05:24:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, int-dir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <158876786144.22272.6483455621584357748@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 05:24:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?sfc-oam-framework-13=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 12:24:22 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work put into this document. The document is easy to read; BTW, I found that its content is more about the justifications / requirements for an OAM system and tools descriptions than about for a framework description. The core of the document appears to be section 6: this should probably be reflected in the abstract and introduction Please address the comments raised in the Internet directorate review by Carlos Bernardos: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-dir/TgQulH7hytGPNxdAPWcSgkTx1IM Please find below a couple on non-blocking COMMENTs. I would really appreciate a reply to all these COMMENTs. I hope that this helps to improve the document, Regards, -éric == COMMENTS == I would not refer to BCP 14 (RFC 8174) as this is an architectural/framework document (informational) and not a protocol specification. It seems that most of the described tools are about synthetic traffic. Is there any other means to do OAM in SFC (not that I have any suggestion...)?. -- Section 1 -- About "to be applied to packets and/or frames", for me packets are layer-3 PDUs and frames are layer-2 PDUs. While I am not familiar with SFC, I could envision SFC being applied to transport or application layers PDUs. So, why restricting the use of this document to layers 2 and 3 only ? -- Section 2 -- Is there a reason why all 'virtual links' are not mentioned in this section? I.e., SR-IOv network, tun/tap, ... Similar question about why limiting the example of VM and not including containers ? -- Section 3 -- The word "performance" is often used in the document but it is not described in depth though: is it about the SF CPU/memory or 'client traffic' latency & throughput ? Section 4 partially addresses my question but not completely; also, adding forward pointers to section 4 would be nice. -- Section 4.3 -- Please bear with my ignorance of SFC world... but, if a SF is doing proxying / rewriting the application message, how useful is an end-to-end PMTUd check? As there are two stitched TCP connections ? The overall assumption of this section is that all SF are pure layer-3, leaving the IP header intact so that ECMP & TTL checks can be done. Is it always the case ? Section 5.2 addresses the above points, but, I suggest that section 4.3 to be restricted to ' link-layer OAM' -- Section 6.4.1 -- "TTL field in NSH header to 63", not familiar with NSH, but, if there is a TTL field in NSH, then it could be useful to point to the RFC & section describing it. Esp in a section whose title is "ICMP" (referring obviously to the IP header). -- Section 8 -- In this security section, I wonder whether the trace tool deserves a paragraph or two as if trusted while being forgeable/spoofed, then operators could trust a SFC which is "owned" and not reliable (i.e., with a bypass of some security SF). Trusting the security AD to raise a DISCUSS if they think it is a DISCUSS. == NITS == -- section 6.3 -- Is it really required to re-specify the use of bit O in NSH ? -- Section 6.4.1 -- Sigh... using the IPv4 terminology of TTL... 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15.20.2979.028; Wed, 6 May 2020 12:35:48 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Carlos Bernardos , "int-dir@ietf.org" CC: "last-call@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-dir] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWIg/WNv1Qbew9+EKZeowhexS2GKibIyOA Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 12:35:47 +0000 Message-ID: <90935230-7120-4AE8-8681-1E7520B6A0EF@cisco.com> References: <158859542340.25402.14656553070841187802@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158859542340.25402.14656553070841187802@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.36.20041300 authentication-results: it.uc3m.es; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;it.uc3m.es; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c1:36:8c61:47ef:9ce5:3a3a] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 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base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4d13905d-f73b-416c-3bb7-08d7f1ba0120 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 May 2020 12:35:47.9606 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: J+57lPFa/Wl4g3CQ3XLmorBryls6T2CfD7YEPo5TfIcb4XDUld89ln5lV0L1lKR/XszYK4LXhmOdpLS/qEdydA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB2009 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] [Int-dir] Intdir telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 12:36:11 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IGhhcyBhIHNtYWxsIGZvcm1hdHRpbmcgaXNzdWUgaW4gdGhlIENsYXNzaWZpZXIgcm93Lg0KDQog ICAgSSB0aGluayBzb21lIGluLWJhbmQgdnMgb3V0LWJhbmQgT0FNIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gd291bGQg YmUgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgdG8gYWRkIHRvDQogICAgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50Lg0KDQoNCiAgICBfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAgIEludC1kaXIg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgSW50LWRpckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaW50LWRpcg0KDQo= From nobody Wed May 6 13:27:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13A63A0DA3; Wed, 6 May 2020 13:27:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <158879682519.13402.18009928034586447876@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 13:27:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 20:27:13 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ** Section 1. Per “OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative domain as the target SFC enabled domain”, is there a circumstance where the OAM controller would be working across administrative domains? Can this statement be made stronger – “OAM controller MUST be within the same administrative …” ** Section 2. Example technologies for the underlay (i.e., IP MPLS) and link (i.e., POS DWDM) layers are provided. It might help readability to provide such examples for the overlay network layer too. ** Section 3.0. “Testing an SF may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether the SF is providing its intended service. Refer to Section 3.1.1 for a more detailed discussion.” Section 3.1.1 appears to discuss availability but not validation practices to ensure “the SF is providing its intended service”. Is providing the intended service as simple as the service being up? Or does it include confirmation that functionally the right service is happening? ** Section 3.4. Typo. s/and so/so/ ** Section 3.5. Per “The overlay network establishes the service plane between the SFC components and are mostly transparent to the SFC data plane elements.”, in what way is the overlay network not transparent? ** Section 5.1. Per “Tools like ping and trace …” and “BFD is another tool …”, what specific instances of ping and trace are you referencing? Or is this generically saying ping = Section 6.4.1, trace = Section 6.4.4 and BFD = Section 6.4.2? ** Section 5.1. I initially found the contents of this table confusing. The paragraph introducing this table refers to “ping” and “trace” as tools. However, E-OAM, IPPM, etc. which are also noted in this table don’t seem easily categories by the “tool” designation. ** Section 6.4.3. Is there a reason that In-Situ OAM is mentioned here but not in Section 5.1? ** Section 8. Per “The sensitivity of the information from SFC layer raises a need for careful security considerations”, what are these concerns? It also isn’t clear what information is being mentioned. ** Section 8. (I’m not calling this a DISCUSS since this is a trivial editorial fix but it MUST be done before publication) Per “To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism for: o Misuse of the OAM channel for denial-of-services, …” A crucial missing word here as in – s/provide mechanisms for:/provide mechanisms for mitigating:/ ** Section 8. Per “To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism for: … o Leakage of OAM packets across SFC instances, and o Leakage of SFC information beyond the SFC domain.” -- the text above mentions the risk of risk of SFC evasion but this isn’t mentioned here -- the two bullets here seem appropriate and needed OAM activities but they don’t follow from the text above (as explicitly promised by the text “to address the above …”) ** Section 8. What is the different between the guidance: -- “… SRC and SF OAM may provide mechanism to [mitigate]: … leakage of SFC information beyond the SFC domain” -- “The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer component should consider some form of message filtering to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain” To me they are saying the same thing, except the second item explicitly notes message filtering. From nobody Wed May 6 16:06:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDDA3A0C20; Wed, 6 May 2020 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 16:06:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 23:06:24 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 2 I'm not sure that I understand why a node in the underlay network (the "VM2" one) doesn't line up with a node in the link layer, in Figure 1. Section 3 classifiers, controllers, other service nodes). Testing an SF may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether nit(?) perhaps "may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to the SF", to avoid questions about what the "not" binds to. 3. Classifier component: OAM functions applicable at this component includes testing the validity of the classification rules and detecting any incoherence among the rules installed in different classifiers. It seems important to include both positive and negative tests of classification functionality (i.e., that traffic that should not match in fact does not match). Section 3.3 might be a good place to mention this. Section 3.1.1 service function is available?. On one end of the spectrum, one might argue that an SF is sufficiently available if the service node (physical or virtual) hosting the SF is available and is functional. On the other end of the spectrum, one might argue that the SF's availability can only be concluded if the packet, after passing I agree with the other reviewers that the first "end" of the spectrum seems surprising. firewall). The cost of this approach is that the OAM mechanism for some SF will need to be continuously modified in order to "keep up" with new functionality being introduced: lack of extendibility. nit: the grammar doesn't seem right around "lack of extendibility" (also, is "extendibility" preferred or "extensibility"?). The SF availability can be performed using a generalized approach (i.e., an adequate granularity to provide a basic SF service). More nit: I think it's an availability *check* that can be performed. Section 3.2.2 Mandating the ability to measure every arbitrary segment of SFs within an SFC seems like it might be over-constraining. Section 4 to perform OAM functionality at different layers. In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in multiple SFCs. I don't understand what "operate a single SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs" means. Section 4.1 o Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption. nit: this wording doesn't really make sense. Do we want to verify the absence of such things, or that it is within configured tolerances, or something else? Just noting any occurrences and verifying that the noted occurrences are as noted doesn't seem useful... o Verify the policy of an SFC or SF. nit: similarly, is this to verify the configuration, or to verify that operation matches the expected configuration? Section 4.2 Continuity is a model where OAM messages are sent periodically to validate or verify the reachability to a given SF within an SFC or nit: while it's "connectivity to", I think it's "reachability of". o Notifying the detected failures to other OAM functions or applications to take appropriate action. nit: the subject of a notification is the entity receiving notification, not the content of the notification. So "notifying other OAM functions or applications of the detected failures so they can take appropriate action", or "Sending notifications of the detected failures to other [...]". Section 4.4 delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, GPS, etc. I think (informational) references are in order for these. (PTP is not listed as "well-known" at https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt , though the other two are.) One-way delay variation [RFC3393] could also be calculated by sending OAM packets and measuring the jitter between the packets passing through an SFC. Looking at jitter between (measurement) packets to ascertain delay variation seems to require foreknowledge of the (e.g., periodic) pacing of the initial packet transmission. If, on the other hand, the idea is to look at the jitter across the measured delay of each packet, then that works fine (but that's not what the current text says). o Ability to measure the packet loss [RFC7680] within an SF or an SFP bound to a given SFC. nit(?): packet loss "within an SF" (as opposed to between two SFs) is not something I would have expected to need measuring, on first thought. Though on further reflection it is less surprising; still, I wanted to check that this is indeed as intended. Section 5.2 As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for the verification of SFs and SFCs. Some note about "at the time of this writing" or similar seems advised; otherwise this statement is unlikely to age well. Section 6.2 An SFF may choose not to forward the OAM packet to an SF if the SF does not support OAM or if the policy does not allow to forward OAM packet to an SF. The SFF may choose to skip the SF, modify the header and forward to next SFC node in the chain. It should be noted that skipping an SF might have implication on some OAM functions (e.g. the delay measurement may not be accurate). The method by This behavior was initially surprising to me, and "might have implication on" feels like weaker text than is merited. While I can perhaps imagine that not forwarding an OAM packet to an SF that will choke on it instead of doing something useful, it seems like it's rather divergent from the OAM expectations to silently bypass a given SF and is quite likely to affect the accuracy of the resulting OAM results. process OAM packets is outside the scope of this document. It could be a configuration parameter instructed by the controller or it can be done by dynamic negotiation between the SF and SFF. (Is there an existing mechanism for dynamic negotation between SF and SFF?) Section 6.3 As described in Section 4, there are different OAM functions that may require different OAM solutions. While the presence of the OAM marker in the overlay header (e.g., O bit in the NSH header) indicates it as OAM packet, it is not sufficient to indicate what OAM function the packet is intended for. The Next Protocol field in NSH header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or what toolset is used. Elsewhere in the document we make reference to what would be required of a non-NSH encapsulation header; is it appropriate to also do so here? Section 6.4.2 BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF or SFC. An initiator could generate a BFD control packet and set the "Your Discriminator" value as last SFF in the control packet. Upon nit: I think this "your discriminator" would be the address or identifier of the last SFF, not just "the last SFF" itself, right? Or be set "to indicate" the last SFF, or similar. (Also occurs a few sentences later.) with relevant DIAG code. The TTL field in the NSH header could be used to perform partial SFC availability. For example, the initiator nit: availability checks/checking Section 6.4.4 [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines a protocol that checks for path liveliness and traces the service hops in any SFP. Section 3 of [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the SFC trace packet format while Sections 4 and 5 of [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the behavior of SF and SFF respectively. While [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] has expired, the proposal is implemented in Open Daylight and available. Why is draft-penno-sfc-trace not progressing towards publication? Section 7 I think this table really needs more lead-in to what it's communicating. As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. With I don't see where that is actually indicated by the table. Section 8 OAM information (though most usefully as summary statistics), if leaked, could also be used by an attacker to gauge the efficacy of an ongoing attack. Any security consideration defined in [RFC7665] and [RFC8300] are applicable for this document. The rest of the document implies that NSH is not mandatory, so I'd suggest rewording this reference to clarify what from RFC 8300 is (or is not) applicable to the whole of the document. The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SF associated within each chain and this information together with nit: s/the SF/the SFs/ To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism for: (1) The crucial missing word that Roman notes is indeed crucial! (2) Can we say something stronger than "may"? The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain. "should consider" is fairly weak guidance; would "should provide" be appropriate? Also, is it worth mentioning that this filtering would include dropping OAM-marked messages from outside the domain (at least by default)? Section 12.1 The only citation to RFC 8300 that appears to require a normative reference is the bit in the security considerations that I noted was unclear about its scope of applicability. Section 12.2 RFC 6291 is a BCP, so we should probably cite it as such. Also, given its content, perhaps it ought to be normative? From nobody Wed May 6 17:24:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E0D3A0C8F; Wed, 6 May 2020 17:23:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Erik Kline via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Erik Kline Message-ID: <158881101426.2103.1648691558957057628@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 17:23:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Erik Kline's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 00:23:36 -0000 Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [[ nits ]] Several minor grammar tweaks, which others have identified, and hopefully can be fixed in these final stages of publication. A few of them I did mention below. [ section 2 ] * The first paragraph describing Figure 1 has a few grammar bugs. May I suggest something to the effect of: In Figure 1, the service layer elements such as classifier and SF are depicted as virtual machines that are interconnected using an overlay network. The underlay network may comprise multiple intermediate nodes not shown in the figure that provide underlay connectivity between the service layer elements. [ section 3.1.1 ] * s/the got/the/ * The 2nd to last paragraph could use a simplifying rewrite. The conversational tone I think impedes the direct, clear transmission of intended meaning. * "The SF availability can be performed": does this refer to the *measurement* of SF availability? [ section 3.2.1 ] * s/comprised of/composed of/ [ section 7 ] * Do 6.4.1 and/or 6.4.4 suffice to perform topology exploration of the SFC? 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<3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 21:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006044fe05a507748b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 04:38:43 -0000 --0000000000006044fe05a507748b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carlos, On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 8:00 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > You extracted a couple of sentences from a larger passage. Part of the > discussion you expect is actually in the paragraph that follows your > excerpt, which you did not include. Engineering is about tradeoffs, and > what this paragraph and section presents is such engineering gradient of > choices. > > As the paragraph that follows explains, the SF treatment and expected > service could well be dropping a packet, which is indistinguishable by > observation from a black hole from a bug. > [...] > I did read the whole section, yet still I came away from it feeling like the encouragement toward the latter end of the spectrum was a little short. That's why I felt it worthy of a discussion, especially since as a new reviewer I don't have the benefit of your context. The text that follows first explains the tradeoff: > > The former approach will likely not provide sufficient confidence to > the actual SF availability, i.e. a service node and a SF are two > different entities. The latter approach is capable of providing an > extensive verification, but comes at a cost. > > Then describes the difficulty in generalizing a test for SFs which can > have super different behaviors, from a Firewall to a telemetry counter: > > Some SFs make direct > modifications to packets, while others do not. Additionally, the > purpose of some SFs may be to, conditionally, drop packets > intentionally. In such cases, it is normal behavior that certain > packets will not be egressing out from the service function. > > There=E2=80=99s additional text exemplifying the tradeoff, but the sectio= n ends > like this: > > More > specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to > validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. > Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment- > specific. > Those paragraphs appear to talk about determining availability of the SF via passive observation of its input and its output. I was surprised to see the absence of a mechanism to directly interrogate an SF to ask it for its state or health. I can tell a lot more about an HTTP service, for example, by dropping a "GET /" on port 80 and looking at the reply than I can by using ICMP to ping the machine on which I believe that service is running. In an SFC OAM environment, there would be added benefit if the status query/response was standardized, because then as SFs evolve, they still reply to a known query in a known way, and some of the complexity about which you're cautioning above is mitigated. You don't need to use that mechanism specifically, but that's where my head went when I read this section. I believe we could add a final sentence saying: > > Implementations are encouraged to find the maximum pushing towards > a more comprehensive and test closer to the expected SF service, > while not compromising complexity, scalability, or reusability of a > solution. > > I appreciate that text can be a bit to generic, in which case I would > really appreciate if you can help us craft this final sentence to be > concrete about "pushing towards the latter" > I'd love to hear what you think of my comment above, and then I'd be happy to work with you on text. -MSK --0000000000006044fe05a507748b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carlos,

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 8:00 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <<= a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
<= /div>
You extracted a couple of sentences from a larger passage. Part of t= he discussion you expect is actually in the paragraph that follows your exc= erpt, which you did not include. Engineering is about tradeoffs, and what t= his paragraph and section presents is such engineering gradient of choices.=

As the paragraph that follows explains, the SF treatment and expected servi= ce could well be dropping a packet, which is indistinguishable by observati= on from a black hole from a bug.
[...]

I did read the whole section, yet= still I came away from it feeling like the encouragement toward the latter= end of the spectrum was a little short.=C2=A0 That's why I felt it wor= thy of a discussion, especially since as a new reviewer I don't have th= e benefit of your context.

The text that follows first explains the tradeoff:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The former approach will likely not provide sufficient confide= nce to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the actual SF availability, i.e. a service node and a SF are t= wo
=C2=A0 =C2=A0different entities.=C2=A0 The latter approach is capable of pr= oviding an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extensive verification, but comes at a cost.

Then describes the difficulty in generalizing a test for SFs which can have= super different behaviors, from a Firewall to a telemetry counter:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some SFs make direct
=C2=A0 =C2=A0modifications to packets, while others do not.=C2=A0 Additiona= lly, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0purpose of some SFs may be to, conditionally, drop packets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0intentionally.=C2=A0 In such cases, it is normal behavior that= certain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packets will not be egressing out from the service function.
There=E2=80=99s additional text exemplifying the tradeoff, but the section = ends like this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0More
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0validate the service offering are outside the scope of this do= cument.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployme= nt-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific.

Those paragraphs= appear to talk about determining availability of the SF via passive observ= ation of its input and its output.=C2=A0 I was surprised to see the absence= of a mechanism to directly interrogate an SF to ask it for its state or he= alth.=C2=A0 I can tell a lot more about an HTTP service, for example, by dr= opping a "GET /" on port 80 and looking at the reply than I can b= y using ICMP to ping the machine on which I believe that service is running= .=C2=A0 In an SFC OAM environment, there would be added benefit if the stat= us query/response was standardized, because then as SFs evolve, they still = reply to a known query in a known way, and some of the complexity about whi= ch you're cautioning above is mitigated.

You don't need to use = that mechanism specifically, but that's where my head went when I read = this section.

I believe we could add a final sentence saying:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations are encouraged to find the maximum pushing tow= ards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a more comprehensive and test closer to the expected SF servic= e,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0while not compromising complexity, scalability, or reusability= of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0solution.

I appreciate that text can be a bit to generic, in which case I would reall= y appreciate if you can help us craft this final sentence to be concrete ab= out "pushing towards the latter"

<= div>I'd love to hear what you think of my comment above, and then I'= ;d be happy to work with you on text.

-MSK
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Kucherawy" CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi Thread-Topic: Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWI2e/kmfzGgjxoE+eHyVKaX075Kib8HuAgAAbZQCAAAi6AA== Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 05:09:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> References: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [108.203.7.63] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 48fe3fb1-6f58-40f5-604d-08d7f244d82e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3651: 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DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_3462AA8B78A84E6789FEC015B07316DBciscocom_-- From nobody Thu May 7 04:40:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779D23A02BC; Thu, 7 May 2020 04:39:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <158885159205.21185.9872562709443924192@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 04:39:52 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 11:39:53 -0000 Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I found this document to be pretty easy to read and understand, so thank you for your work in this area. I have a few comments, that may have already been raised by other reviewers: 2. SFC Layering Model While Figure 1 depicts an example where SFs are enabled as virtual entities, the SFC architecture does not make any assumptions on how the SFC data plane elements are deployed. The SFC architecture is flexible and accommodates physical or virtual entity deployment. SFC OAM accounts for this flexibility and accordingly it is applicable whether SFC data plane elements are deployed directly on physical hardware, as one or more Virtual Machines, or any combination thereof. Would "SF data plane elements" be more clear than "SFC data plane elements"? 3. SFC OAM Components 3. Classifier component: OAM functions applicable at this component includes testing the validity of the classification rules and detecting any incoherence among the rules installed in different classifiers. It was not entirely clear to me what is meant by different classifiers, so possibly this could be elaborated slightly. 4.3. Trace Functions "TTL" is used in various places. Does that need to be listed in the acronyms? 6.2. OAM Packet Processing and Forwarding Semantic Upon receiving an OAM packet, SFC-aware SFs may choose to discard the packet if it does not support OAM functionality or if the local policy prevents them from processing the OAM packet. When an SF supports OAM functionality, it is desirable to process the packet and provide an appropriate response to allow end-to-end verification. To limit performance impact due to OAM, SFC-aware SFs should rate limit the number of OAM packets processed. Doesn't this mean that SFC is potentially altering the thing being measured? Wouldn't it be better instead to rate limit the number of OAM packets that are being generated in the first place? 6.1. SFC OAM Packet Marker The SFC OAM function described in Section 4 performed at the service layer or overlay network layer must mark the packet as an OAM packet so that relevant nodes can differentiate an OAM packet from data packets. The base header defined in Section 2.2 of [RFC8300] assigns a bit to indicate OAM packets. When NSH encapsulation is used at the service layer, the O bit must be set to differentiate the OAM packet. Any other overlay encapsulations used at the service layer must have a way to mark the packet as OAM packet. "must be set" => "MUST be set" & "must have a way" => "MUST have a way"? But I question whether these should be musts at all. E.g. by setting an OAM bit you allow the intermediate functions to potentially modify their behaviour, making it harder to know that the thing under test isn't changing its behaviour because it is being tested. E.g. could another choice be to use some reserved address space to simulate flows without requiring the packets to be explicitly marked? 7. Manageability Considerations Table 4: OAM Tool GAP Analysis +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | Layer |Configuration |Orchestration|Topology|Notification | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | Underlay N/w |CLI, NETCONF | CLI, NETCONF|SNMP |SNMP, Syslog,| | | | | |NETCONF | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | Overlay N/w |CLI, NETCONF | CLI, NETCONF|SNMP |SNMP, Syslog | | | | | |NETCONF | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | Classifier | CLI, NETCONF | CLI, NETCONF| None | None | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | SF |CLI, NETCONF | CLI, NETCONF| None | None | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ | SFC |CLI, NETCONF | CLI, NETCONF| None | None | +----------------+--------------+-------------+--------+-------------+ It would probably be useful for YANG to be listed here as well under configuration and Orchestration. RESTCONF or gNMI could potentially also be listed, although I note that this table is not intended to be exhaustive. There is also a base YANG topology model, RFC 8345, and other extensions being defined, at least for Overlay and Underlay networks. Would they be appropriate for the topology column? Regards, Rob From nobody Thu May 7 06:32:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753043A0834; Thu, 7 May 2020 06:32:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi , tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <158885833897.21185.5792022165179335411@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 06:32:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 13:32:20 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Table 3 has "None" in all the cells corresponding to SF and SFC OAM functions. But then Sections 6.4.1 through 6.4.4 discuss several tools that can be used to provide some of these functions. I understand that the text about the table says "Table 3 below is not exhaustive," but still it seems misleading to say "None" in the table when there are, in fact, tools available that are discussed just a few paragraphs later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 4.1: "Verify the policy of an SFC or SF." --> This seems a little vague. What about the policy is meant to be verified? Section 6: The title of this section threw me off. I would suggest putting Section 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 into one section about "Operational Aspects of SFC OAM at the Service Layer" and then starting a new Section 7 about "Candidate SFC OAM Tools" that begins with the current Section 6.4 text. Section 6.1: The normative language seems out of place here. From nobody Thu May 7 06:40:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39DE3A0920; Thu, 7 May 2020 06:39:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 06:39:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 13:40:03 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Murray's DISCUSS. I appreciate the fact that "More specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document." (§3.1.1) The issue I want to point out, which I believe is a significant omission in this document, is the lack of mention in §4 and §5 of the validation of the service offering as an SFC OAM function or in the gap analysis. IOW, the availability of the SF from the point of view of its ability to provide the service is pointed out as important in §3.1.1, but there is no further consideration later in the document. [I believe that this issue borders on a DISCUSS -- and while I would really like to see further consideration in the text, I decided to trust that the authors and the responsible AD will take care of it.] From nobody Thu May 7 09:19:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769C23A0A80; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 393fQyzBWxoP; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B2D23A0A1A; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id u12so3857977vsq.0; Thu, 07 May 2020 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q0BLGs+G+D4q9wZ7W03GrTDPyoAa6j9p9IPbEZivj7Q=; b=RoUhfEoZLbj9DnwzWrafo5sQwUXCRDJF2rE3F4LGCfce8Gga6310ruzIVrKQJ1+G/z urMDVqlANPeoR8O+QqDrNr2kV45sR2ja6Q+tOqLJ4nW2UVBZSZlAxg8tiSQS/trti7QF WyHN0u5knv79nVfs5/yrqqd+bftqu+y9CyvKYXNsQ8qHhX4OaIrMses5ivZQQxD5VF59 ImovVVJggtWoOzcRVh/tPBqzeosa0Ecaw98pZFFTe+zAzZUbiAl0S1e84PK75+SAOoul WpDL9Fi4H4mmHl3M7/ov7iTo80HMbx85HNecl8e6C+9C5hH2GfOOUafplA73kEP30TBZ gRww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q0BLGs+G+D4q9wZ7W03GrTDPyoAa6j9p9IPbEZivj7Q=; b=RWnGBEzhuFNBnBjEg6C3qtKjxYAS+GwVYIrHCE/4d1lFnrp5oKlit/6pHWfc/71Zmy /xUhy9YGF/5gIk4qLd2uqMgFyn6vMclVqEz5SIcZfNYaD5HZnovS6u3aCN7TkDslEK0k iqBhf+s8ArtKkNlrYbbqFj4iCLqc6G4t9wLXMptLcHwZH1gFWQmpZC1etDzrwyckqLn+ lSMHdukdioUP+A6gxkHE5/YFHFBd5IIDph3cazp1PznoNsQYIIUyHXuik9XPrKMxT/No BRnDnU8w5srqsjpjO/Rj/g7+AAdKnfYEEim9nb33tWBbf/KyV/E7cWFVxoD9bRceA6UO JX1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYhpBEDvuQE7sg0M57Q50wiRRGoro33SNcSJBjph2RJMkkwde91 QYfGFxdTsecjIrWVzqS3K5ZGGnSAg+FMQlArwbY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIfCIGisJXyAPg6tifN0fKwtUSOddG9nURCB7DncjEZHHta3OOgwKn/pwVCuiH9S/bfriaGqc6suwxERZ8PiLg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:208a:: with SMTP id h10mr12876310vsr.13.1588868366126; Thu, 07 May 2020 09:19:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:19:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ed28105a5113e12" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 16:19:32 -0000 --0000000000008ed28105a5113e12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:09 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > Those paragraphs appear to talk about determining availability of the SF > via passive observation of its input and its output. I was surprised to > see the absence of a mechanism to directly interrogate an SF to ask it fo= r > its state or health. > > > This is a good observation. > > Part of the rational for this approach is that, during the WG discussions= , > there was a conclusion that since SFs can be so diverse (a load-balancer, > NATs, a FW, WAN and application acceleration, HTTP Header Enrichment, > etc.), it did not make sense to attempt to generalize a mechanism here on > this doc, and instead it was decided to keep SF availability out of scope= : > > More > specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to > validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. > Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment- > specific. > > > Now that you point that out, I think we might consider changing this text a bit. To my mind, it effectively punts on the entire issue, and maybe instead we can say something more encouraging here to those that work on what comes next. Perhaps you'd be comfortable with this? "Specific mechanisms to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the service offering will be considered and may be proposed in the solution documents derived from this framework." In an SFC OAM environment, there would be added benefit if the status > query/response was standardized, because then as SFs evolve, they still > reply to a known query in a known way, and some of the complexity about > which you're cautioning above is mitigated. > > That does not mean that such an approach can be explored in detail > elsewhere and not in this framework document. > Absolutely agreed. I think my goal here is to specifically encourage doing so. I tend to think that an SF interrogation mechanism is a bit too specific to > detail or call out on this service-layer framework document. > > At the same time, I would not want to give the impression that it is OK t= o > settle with VM/Container up implies service UP=E2=80=A6 > > As such, weighting on the =E2=80=9Canother hand side=E2=80=9D as a goal s= eems to alleviate > your concern without redefine scope. > > Thoughts? > I think that's completely fair. And so, is that proposed replacement sentence acceptable? -MSK --0000000000008ed28105a5113e12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:09 PM Carlos Pi= gnataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco= .com> wrote:
<= div>

Those paragraphs appear to talk about determining availability of the = SF via passive observation of its input and its output.=C2=A0 I was surpris= ed to see the absence of a mechanism to directly interrogate an SF to ask i= t for its state or health.=C2=A0

This is a good observation.=C2=A0

Part of the rational for this approach is that, during the WG discussi= ons, there was a conclusion that since SFs can be so diverse (a load-balanc= er, NATs, a FW,=C2=A0WAN and application acceleration,=C2=A0HTTP Header Enr= ichment, etc.), it did not make sense to attempt to generalize a mechanism here on this doc, and instead it was decided to = keep SF availability out of scope:

   More
   specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to
   validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document.
   Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment-
   specific.


Now that you point t= hat out, I think we might consider changing this text a bit.=C2=A0 To my mi= nd, it effectively punts on the entire issue, and maybe instead we can say = something more encouraging here to those that work on what comes next.=C2= =A0 Perhaps you'd be comfortable with this?

"Spe= cific mechanisms to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the service of= fering will be considered and may be proposed in the solution documents der= ived from this framework."

=
In an SFC OAM environment, there would be added benefit if the status = query/response was standardized, because then as SFs evolve, they still rep= ly to a known query in a known way, and some of the complexity about which = you're cautioning above is mitigated.
That does not mean that such an approach can be explored in detail els= ewhere and not in this framework document.

Absolutely agreed.=C2=A0 I think my goal here is to= specifically encourage doing so.

=
I tend to think that an SF interrogation mechanism is a bit too specific to= detail or call out on this service-layer framework document.

At the same time, I would not want to give the impression that it is O= K to settle with VM/Container up implies service UP=E2=80=A6

As such, weighting on the =E2=80=9Canother hand side=E2=80=9D as a goa= l seems to alleviate your concern without redefine scope.

Thoughts?

I think t= hat's completely fair.=C2=A0 And so, is that proposed replacement sente= nce acceptable?

-MSK
--0000000000008ed28105a5113e12-- From nobody Thu May 7 09:37:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431493A0ADD; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:37:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T69xiNgiCcLB; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E35A53A0AD4; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49HzdM5HLvz1nt05; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:37:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1588869431; bh=U8C9L4jQPFo0t6F8W3dlaVEpUGY4dnnihYPs4b8bKBg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ti5PrGjtVz98Q579sW2i/vzMK1TOuPg++JIZLzi5NKcqU5n8xWzIdcv6Sa0H6YOGA MNNilMrZB45Py8eUjXx9dFHOvcfxfHV1GZ63iilKHCgirq6p4rwaEuoidIy2d/QVU+ O7vJslQBFJATDKgVopfHDxM4O7OvvUFUwyARDpI0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49HzdL4vb2z1p2px; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:37:10 -0700 (PDT) To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi References: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:37:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 16:37:15 -0000 I have a concern about going very far on monitoring SFs. This comes from two pieces. First, monitoring whether an SF is actually doing its job is at least specific to the kind of SF, and may even be specific to details of how the SF is configured. (To check whether a firewall is blocking things, you need to know what it is configured to block.) This is very far from generic OAM. On the other hand, the general monitoring of compute platforms and their resource behavior is not a topic that the Routing Area of the IETF ought to be getting into. It is arguable whether it is a topic the IETF ought to be getting into, but that is more your area. Hence, as a participant, I am concerned that your discuss is pushing for an emphasis that does not belong in the work of this working group or this framework. Yours, Joel On 5/7/2020 12:19 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:09 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > > wrote: > >> >> Those paragraphs appear to talk about determining availability of >> the SF via passive observation of its input and its output.  I was >> surprised to see the absence of a mechanism to directly >> interrogate an SF to ask it for its state or health. > > This is a good observation. > > Part of the rational for this approach is that, during the WG > discussions, there was a conclusion that since SFs can be so diverse > (a load-balancer, NATs, a FW, WAN and application acceleration, HTTP > Header Enrichment, etc.), it did not make sense to attempt to > generalize a mechanism here on this doc, and instead it was decided > to keep SF availability out of scope: > > More > specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to > validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. > Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment- > specific. > > > > Now that you point that out, I think we might consider changing this > text a bit.  To my mind, it effectively punts on the entire issue, and > maybe instead we can say something more encouraging here to those that > work on what comes next.  Perhaps you'd be comfortable with this? > > "Specific mechanisms to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the > service offering will be considered and may be proposed in the solution > documents derived from this framework." > >> In an SFC OAM environment, there would be added benefit if the >> status query/response was standardized, because then as SFs >> evolve, they still reply to a known query in a known way, and some >> of the complexity about which you're cautioning above is mitigated. > > That does not mean that such an approach can be explored in detail > elsewhere and not in this framework document. > > > Absolutely agreed.  I think my goal here is to specifically encourage > doing so. > > I tend to think that an SF interrogation mechanism is a bit too > specific to detail or call out on this service-layer framework > document. > > At the same time, I would not want to give the impression that it is > OK to settle with VM/Container up implies service UP… > > As such, weighting on the “another hand side” as a goal seems to > alleviate your concern without redefine scope. > > Thoughts? > > > I think that's completely fair.  And so, is that proposed replacement > sentence acceptable? > > -MSK From nobody Thu May 7 10:29:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88A73A0C9F; 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Kucherawy" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi Thread-Topic: Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWI2e/kmfzGgjxoE+eHyVKaX075Kib8HuAgAAbZQCAAAi6AIAAuxUAgAAE/4CAAA6XAA== Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:29:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.80] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 31f4f161-0459-4205-e610-08d7f2ac2de2 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SMTP id j9mr13229169vke.60.1588874638164; Thu, 07 May 2020 11:03:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158874314414.2257.851841137120234428@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DC09F2F-861C-41AA-AC05-08E09614BDB7@cisco.com> <3462AA8B-78A8-4E67-89FE-C015B07316DB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , Tal Mizrahi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066874d05a512b4dd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 18:04:05 -0000 --00000000000066874d05a512b4dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:29 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Thank you Murray and Joel! > > Surfacing the issue to the top of the post, we have: > > Current: > More > specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to > validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. > Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment- > specific. > > Proposad: > Specific mechanisms to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the > service offering will be considered and may be proposed in the solution > documents derived from this framework. > > I am not uncomfortable with this change, but at the same time, the > pragmatic in me thinks that this will not be part of relevant work in SFC. > If there's not much that can be done practically to lean this more toward the "second" end of that spectrum than what's already there -- because, as you said, such work isn't likely to be done anyway -- then I think I've gotten as much out of this discussion as is practical. Thanks for indulging me. I'm rather puzzled by Joel's comments about a way to query your own components for even basic status being out of scope, but I guess that's something else for me to go learn about. -MSK --00000000000066874d05a512b4dd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:29 AM Carlos Pi= gnataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco= .com> wrote:
Thank you Murray and Joel!

Surfacing the issue to the top of the post, we have:

Current:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0More
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OA= M to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0validate the service offering are outside the scope of th= is document.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and dep= loyment-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific.

Proposad:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Specific mechanisms to characterize SF-specific OAM to va= lidate the=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0service offering will be considered and may be proposed i= n the solution=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0documents derived from this framework.

I am not uncomfortable with this change, but at the same time, the pra= gmatic in me thinks that this will not be part of relevant work in SFC.

If there's not much that = can be done practically to lean this more toward the "second" end= of that spectrum than what's already there -- because, as you said, su= ch work isn't likely to be done anyway -- then I think I've gotten = as much out of this discussion as is practical.=C2=A0 Thanks for indulging = me.

I'm rather puzzled by Joel's comments about a= way to query your own components for even basic status being out of scope,= but I guess that's something else for me to go learn about.
=
-MSK
--00000000000066874d05a512b4dd-- From nobody Thu May 7 11:08:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CAA3A0C08; Thu, 7 May 2020 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, Tal Mizrahi X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Murray Kucherawy Message-ID: <158887487985.23375.2713874223198562089@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 11:07:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 18:08:01 -0000 Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for engaging my DISCUSS question about Section 3.1.1. I don't feel it was fully resolved, but I also don't feel there's anything to be gained by pressing my point further. My original comments: I think this is pretty well done. I had little trouble following it and this is my first foray into the realm of SFC. I find myself almost suggesting that you don't need the BCP 14 boilerplate or its language at all in this document. You barely use it, and it might not even be needed in the places you do have it especially since this is a framework document and not a protocol document. Finally, lots of editorial stuff: Section 2: * “In Figure 1, the service layer element such as …” -- s/element/elements/ * “The underlay network may comprise of …” -- s/comprise/consist/, or alternatively, s/comprise of/comprise/ * “... nodes but not shown …” -- remove “but”, or s/but/but these/ Section 3, all three numbered list entries: * “... applicable at this component includes …” -- s/includes/include/ Section 3.1.1: OLD: "SF availability is an aspect that raises an interesting question -- How to determine that a service function is available?." NEW: "SF availability is an aspect that raises an interesting question: How does one determine that a service function is available?" * “... the packet did indeed get the got expected service.” -- remove “got” * This section uses both “a SF” and “an SF”. I don’t know which one is grammatically correct, but we should find out and use that. Or, if both are, pick one and be consistent. Section 3.2.1: * “An SFC could be comprised of …” -- either remove “of”, or use “composed of” Section 3.3: * Either capitalize “Classifier” generally, or not at all. Section 3.4: * What constitutes an availability check of the underlay network? You discussed this in 3.1.1, but not here. If this is covered in Section 4.1, a forward reference would be helpful here. Section 3.5: * “... and are mostly transparent …” -- s/are/is/; “network” is singular * What constitutes an availability check of the overlay network? Section 4: * “...for more than one SFC components.” -- use “component”, or change “more than one” to “multiple” Section 4.1: * “Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption.” -- perhaps “detect” would be better than “verify” here Section 4.2: * “Ability to provision continuity check …” -- put an “a” before “continuity” * “... supported by continuity function are as follows:” -- s/function/functions/ Section 4.3: * “... from every transit devices …” -- s/devices/device/ * “Ability to trigger action from …” -- s/action/an action/ Section 5.1: * I would quote “ping” and “trace”. * “Table 3 below is not exhaustive” -- needs a period at the end * Table 3 needs a bit of tidying in terms of alignment. Section 6.1: * “... network layer must mark the packet …” -- why isn’t that a MUST? Section 6.2: * “... skipping an SF might have implication …” -- s/implication/implications/ * “Any SFC-aware node that initiates an OAM packet must set …” -- why isn’t that a MUST? Section 6.3: * “... indicates it as OAM packet …” -- s/as/as an/ Section 6.4.1: * “[RFC0792] and [RFC4443] describes …” -- s/describes/describe/ * “... verify the availability of SF or SFC.” -- s/SF/an SF/ * “... can generate ICMP echo …” -- s/ICMP/an ICMP/ * “... from last SFF and thereby …” -- add comma after “SFF” * “Alternately, … Alernatively, … ” -- use “Alternatively” for the first one, and “or” for the second, all in one sentence Section 6.4.2: * “[RFC5880] defines Bidirectional …” -- s/defines/defines the/ * “... to perform continuity function …” -- “functions”, or “the continuity function” * “... value as last SFF …” -- s/last/the last/ * “... with relevant DIAG code.” -- s/with/with the/ (or “a”) Section 6.4.3: * “... transported using NSH header.” -- s/using/using the/ Section 6.4.4: * “... is implemented in Open Daylight and available.” -- s/and/and is/ Section 7: * Table 4 needs some work on spacing consistency. Section 8: * “... are applicable for this document.” -- s/are/is/, as “consideration” is singular * “The OAM information from service layer …” -- s/from/from the/ * “... service function paths etc.” -- s/paths etc./paths, etc./ * “... information from SFC layer raises a need for careful security considerations” -- s/from/from the/, and the sentence is missing a period * “... SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism …” -- s/mechanism/mechanisms/ * “... the OAM solution for SF component should …” -- s/component/components/ From nobody Mon May 11 12:45:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61EF3A0C46; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:45:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.129.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <158922630375.18554.10474408005752958445@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:45:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:45:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Service Function Chaining: Subscriber and Performance Policy Identification Variable-Length Network Service Header (NSH) Context Headers Authors : Behcet Sarikaya Dirk von Hugo Mohamed Boucadair Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2020-05-11 Abstract: This document defines Subscriber and Performance Policy Identifiers Network Service Header Variable-Length Context Headers to inform Service Functions about subscriber- and service-related information for the sake of policy enforcement and appropriate service function chaining operations. The structure of each context header is defined; their use and processing instructions by SFC-aware nodes are explained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed May 13 13:00:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4583A08BE; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=FLe2kxAQ; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=afkOlP4M Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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15.20.3000.016; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:00:47 +0000 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , "cjbc@it.uc3m.es" , "int-dir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?w4lyaWMgVnluY2tlJ3MgTm8gT2JqZWN0aW9uIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtc2Zj?= =?utf-8?Q?-oam-framework-13:_(with_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHWI6FJ9zTDA56WOkCEPXJ4twd//6imSNQA Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:00:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158876786144.22272.6483455621584357748@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158876786144.22272.6483455621584357748@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.76] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email 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15.20.3000.016; Wed, 13 May 2020 22:43:52 +0000 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Roman Danyliw , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi Thread-Topic: Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWI+TQVc1dwVuP3Eiz1Rhn6+sUKaimZRsA Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 22:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158879682519.13402.18009928034586447876@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158879682519.13402.18009928034586447876@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 authentication-results: cert.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cert.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.76] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f9900bf2-cb8b-41b5-1e8b-08d7f78f1c87 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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b=qtUxl9hyDT11+XpbI78/ceQAutiC7BpxWLgz3b/3ooBhKLQl9+0rRDSze4Mf0EiCt3 z+iE5aH+UjhJrdDVWEbjGKSoBCaGEh7aSxwZnAnca89fe8AvtzedCXPoi8pnmCHqeQxu f1GS6XxuTvhv/ItMxEKRGJZ0I0Ci+AxFIJfUMfJfLfIVuqqGnf67A8n3MnLNYkVze6ag dCJEnKF56fJUdWtkw+yWRSVuAlAmAGNONDdp0GWEUiW+Owp/qkJKRI6nQG64mnejgrqv 9LorDb9AKBBW9tPakevW7xjFs6Ics45+OY/KTqUINABPsSEJX+RyI27AhagBffxiijng vkow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533pR55Qd6AEcnyaL7ElQA5ZbKW8m1JqiZ6Xm/XJHyt13OXXj4g9 Q9+Gq5XOctLtGJOddF5jc1IZ1ILUVNVI8kMNGd4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyxzmzEJkw0kmTw3sR69wvsiZ3FONTQBfU3fVMEv4/Y+ETzDsh53OpdSG/8qW+v1AjcZdziLfepqrhzfpBBsSo= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5c89:: with SMTP id d9mr10301ilg.237.1589423913481; Wed, 13 May 2020 19:38:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158865287462.10835.6379624375289404130@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 19:38:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2bd3805a5929707" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 02:38:36 -0000 --000000000000c2bd3805a5929707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Nagendra, these changes are great. Please don't forget the extensive TSVART comments. On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:00 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) < naikumar@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for the response. > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th= is > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > Please address the issues in the (detailed!) Tsvarea review, in > particular the > bits from section 4 that incorrectly describe the work coming out of > IPPM. > > Additional nits: > > Sec 3.1.1: s/extendibility/extensibility > > Done. > > Sec 3.1.2: there are also =E2=80=9Chybrid=E2=80=9D methods like IOAM = that do not fit > the active > and passive definitions neatly. > > Does the below modified text looks good?: > > OLD > The performance can be a passive measurement by using live > traffic or can be active measurement by using synthetic probe > packets > > New: > The performance can be a passive measurement by using live > Traffic, an active measurement by using synthetic probe > Packets or can be hybrid method that use a combination > of active and passive measurement. > > 4.1 s/packet to be of variable length packet size/packet to be of > variable > Length > > Done. > > 4.1 you are probably not trying to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D packet re= ordering and > corruption! I > suggest =E2=80=9Cdetect=E2=80=9D instead. > > Yes. We got similar comment from other reviewers as well. We > changed this to "detect". > > 6.3 s/is intended to/is intended > > 6.3 s/in NSH header/in the NSH header > > 6.4.1 s/describes/describe > > 6.4.1 s/incrementing the ttl/incrementing ttl > > 6.4.3 s/using NSH header/using the NSH header > > 8. s/Any security consideration/Any security considerations > > 8. Missing period at end of second paragraph > > 8. s/mechanism/mechanisms > > Addressed all the above comments. > > Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. > > Thanks, > Nagendra > > > > > --000000000000c2bd3805a5929707 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Nagendra, these changes are great.
<= br>
Please don't forget the extensive TSVART comments.

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:00 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Martin,

Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for the response.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When responding, please keep the subject line intact and repl= y to all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free t= o cut this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 introductory paragraph, however.)


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please refer to https://www.i= etf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions= .


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found= here:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 COMMENT:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please address the issues in the (detailed!) Tsvarea review, = in particular the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bits from section 4 that incorrectly describe the work coming= out of IPPM.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Additional nits:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sec 3.1.1: s/extendibility/extensibility

<Nagendra> Done.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sec 3.1.2: there are also =E2=80=9Chybrid=E2=80=9D methods li= ke IOAM that do not fit the active
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and passive definitions neatly.

<Nagendra>Does the below modified text looks good?:

OLD
The performance can be a passive measurement by using live
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic or can be active measurement by using synthetic probe<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0packets

New:
The performance can be a passive measurement by using live
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic, an active measurement by using synthetic probe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Packets or can be hybrid method that use a combination
of active and passive measurement.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4.1 s/packet to be of variable length packet size/packet to b= e of variable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Length

<Nagendra>Done.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4.1 you are probably not trying to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D p= acket reordering and corruption! I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggest =E2=80=9Cdetect=E2=80=9D instead.

<Nagendra>Yes. We got similar comment from other reviewers as well. W= e changed this to "detect".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.3 s/is intended to/is intended

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.3 s/in NSH header/in the NSH header

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.4.1 s/describes/describe

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.4.1 s/incrementing the ttl/incrementing ttl

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 6.4.3 s/using NSH header/using the NSH header

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8. s/Any security consideration/Any security considerations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8. Missing period at end of second paragraph

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8. s/mechanism/mechanisms

<Nagendra> Addressed all the above comments.

Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments.

Thanks,
Nagendra




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15.20.3000.016; Thu, 14 May 2020 13:40:13 +0000 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWI/r7n4nGFylM8k67PRRkYrO8AqinX1yA Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:40:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 authentication-results: mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.75] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9f1a9c60-90f2-41a9-4b17-08d7f80c5485 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR11MB1826: 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<05ACD2F45F85D5448BB7B730644EE622@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8a09cfab-afeb-4068-b8d3-08d7f839cd75 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 May 2020 19:05:43.7444 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: yaD1f/r0ryKDtii+tOK/4HI0wfsD0w3ujfWJA2OK1XPpRgkrLLjIe8nQuCUfpwcbn82IBMFDg0X7rKHIkC4uZg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR11MB1267 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , 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cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CF6E3A09F1; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49PWMB1vcsz1p4gX; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:44:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589647446; bh=JRFInWnCvAimXMtZvgO5aRdNMT4xpXNNwRFRTXvBDek=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=PQ7vfVGPc6btctQWUyurVIvu/sF1pSNQiK9OxTdGEWgowto1DtvEm44NI/gWh1qEA es9ZtDremv88hVjylpBvgUm+30DGKepkF1uAmOTDNZAYxW1tKUwscMZOGVVS3cvpCP d2+4yYWM91QcJJd7os4CoN97FFH0sODucrMwMBNI= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49PWM90Kqyz1p4f5; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 12:44:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 16:44:08 -0000 Can we please be careful not to get too far into monitoring the functioning of the SF. That is explicitly out of scope for the document. This modification seems to move dangerously in that direction. Yours, Joel On 5/16/2020 10:36 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi Alvaro, > > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for the response. > > > Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I support Murray's DISCUSS. > > We will address the DISCUSS comments from Murray. > > I appreciate the fact that "More specifics on the mechanism to characterize > SF-specific OAM to validate the service offering are outside the scope of this > document." (§3.1.1) > > The issue I want to point out, which I believe is a significant omission in > this document, is the lack of mention in §4 and §5 of the validation of the > service offering as an SFC OAM function or in the gap analysis. IOW, the > availability of the SF from the point of view of its ability to provide the > service is pointed out as important in §3.1.1, but there is no further > consideration later in the document. > > [I believe that this issue borders on a DISCUSS -- and while I would really > like to see further consideration in the text, I decided to trust that the > authors and the responsible AD will take care of it.] > > I think, this can be addressed by adding the below bullet point in Section 4.1 > > "Ability to validate the service functionality of an SF." > > Please let me know if this address your concern. Please feel free to suggest any text improvement. > > Thanks, > Nagendra > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Sun May 17 09:07:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A14E3A086E; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4y_G8ALIaWJ; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 162683A0864; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49Q6Vp5b4lz1p4wn; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:07:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589731666; bh=l1QUWc1lagyDpUNAxXOCIA2+k2b4CRFJEz3TSwJmx/I=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=YDKeh3QE+U8jGeJegrHqKMZ7bGrWJpyetYI6/5S/BcUzUkKY48xdeQR3Tf+b3ATJl ZFCa04DdU9n2T+Dv66b6lur8Ps+2PIKbGgOC7qsWAzE66xgMxrtNZM3a2Oy7RUmLhh P9X6sgARtbWWZ7uq2GuR0qnH4R21P0p1KzHegC4I= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49Q6Vn3sGRz1p2py; Sun, 17 May 2020 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel Halpern To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 12:07:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 16:07:49 -0000 Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss. So I am not sure what your stance is. And the particular change the authors have proposed seems to me to go too far, apparently promising that SFC OAM will validity SF functionality. That is out of scope for the document. Can you please clarify whether you feel there is still a discuss level issue here? And if you can live without this change? Thank you, Joel On 5/16/2020 12:44 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Can we please be careful not to get too far into monitoring the > functioning of the SF.  That is explicitly out of scope for the > document.  This modification seems to move dangerously in that direction. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 5/16/2020 10:36 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: >> Hi Alvaro, >> >> Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for the response. >> >> >>      Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for >>      draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection >>      When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >> all >>      email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >> cut this >>      introductory paragraph, however.) >>      Please refer to >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>      for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>      The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>      COMMENT: >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>      I support Murray's DISCUSS. >> We will address the DISCUSS comments from Murray. >> >>      I appreciate the fact that "More specifics on the mechanism to >> characterize >>      SF-specific OAM to validate the service offering are outside the >> scope of this >>      document." (§3.1.1) >>      The issue I want to point out, which I believe is a significant >> omission in >>      this document, is the lack of mention in §4 and §5 of the >> validation of the >>      service offering as an SFC OAM function or in the gap analysis. >> IOW, the >>      availability of the SF from the point of view of its ability to >> provide the >>      service is pointed out as important in §3.1.1, but there is no >> further >>      consideration later in the document. >>      [I believe that this issue borders on a DISCUSS -- and while I >> would really >>      like to see further consideration in the text, I decided to trust >> that the >>      authors and the responsible AD will take care of it.] >>      I think, this can be addressed by adding the below >> bullet point in Section 4.1 >> >> "Ability to validate the service functionality of an SF." >> >> Please let me know if this address your concern. Please feel free to >> suggest any text improvement. >> >> Thanks, >> Nagendra >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun May 17 10:47:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5063A09F7; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lp4na7_rG91J; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com (mail-ua1-x92c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE503A09F3; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id g7so2642855uap.7; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p6fx75oWG1DWLosz2DxfleuAvkZq1H73Jet3xJ9+Hw4=; b=Q9YP68d3ThA3wkess+XTeHmAwP0wI5WvnEHH+pUlLyZDkRCylzF8fRUK5M/LyUfGAp qSP3fh5KDMeO21HE55F5Pd4tPiqTzu6alTVhvFvtp9hljbKQMbbhfVAnH3XaMUph48YZ ssLzWsP50iR5tQTMCq3JWEkq+gYMftAn3DFrwOhNugaplvevzIVluOCGSSmOrFWM3ldV odiib8zyI19yLGr62kXnwwTq3O976e3Xz6jVcrj9ShYntkO8qQwoZJQF+Ycq5Zmvca0X ruEzfFIizTJd2DbB7SKJtDu6hCpXCSrk1W7Y0bzkBfEnHX6Yo32qlVF7bx+KCiuLc1pq I5iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p6fx75oWG1DWLosz2DxfleuAvkZq1H73Jet3xJ9+Hw4=; b=iRdgCWMk/S7rqB1Q3SXCZzBRjaEsNOdkKCu2udJvnu4Jzg9OlbfDyPmlt8EpgwMTaz UcldqxTDDYaf3wa19Cx61qBjlNusN6zD9yfYKfu+uq0HR9o3HGJiYSI4gnOlhfmAFbFF HRUXbHgTu98a2yrI5QjGcoVHwc8RIf/QTdM+2PDmN8MrpdfX+yOSjPTgiVv4oNGzTGlA qNnrcagkHggyHi/HiWJcXLK2NR217b2/hyx7u8PiVxoBsux+eVSrCvyhTYKtaBuig3S1 f4swkrrTfHnzKNpV3wyOIByFPH+BLxJ4Asnqr2hsYMJIK30VnpmPGW2n+0iLpi+mNTIc JxRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533EgsWsvi2DnudFdas2OQhqLj+MCWzR69HzgE13cODlV/U28AIu ji8DnS6Tp1fNNXiTxJCzKCu7OyeEf5seiQL1qMI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYbpa5/jyoYtsgKsS/gqgBCfCMfMM3qQgCRcZL4nWiE1r517D7kAPFyPvoOM19W0EaG8lsK1UmCQaFQyaw8uI= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:2541:: with SMTP id l1mr8834345uan.101.1589737664285; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 10:47:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4106f05a5dba4d4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:47:46 -0000 --000000000000c4106f05a5dba4d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halpern wrote: > Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss. So I am not sure what your > stance is. > I cleared my DISCUSS because the discussion I wanted to have took place. As my comment now shows, I'm still left with the feeling that this is a weak point in the document, but I'm not sufficiently concerned as to obstruct its progress. However, I think it's significant that two other Area Directors also remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUSS. I suggest that if this aspect of the work is truly out of scope, the document could perhaps explain why that is, because it certainly feels like it needs more attention. -MSK --000000000000c4106f05a5dba4d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halp= ern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> = wrote:
Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss.=C2=A0 So I am not= sure what your
stance is.

I cleared my DISCUSS because= the discussion I wanted to have took place.=C2=A0 As my comment now shows,= I'm still left with the feeling that this is a weak point in the docum= ent, but I'm not sufficiently concerned as to obstruct its progress.

However, I think it's significant that two other= Area Directors also remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUS= S.

I suggest that if this aspect of the work i= s truly out of scope, the document could perhaps explain why that is, becau= se it certainly feels like it needs more attention.

-MSK
--000000000000c4106f05a5dba4d4-- From nobody Sun May 17 10:58:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A103A0A9A; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wMnac_VZOqK; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 780D73A0A96; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49Q8yp2LG1z6GHbQ; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589738322; bh=u8nMSUIftAOplTqkyygDNidhJlRrEEFu0tmlixpqJoE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=bVUiGoMWSWtDUKgjJdShNz8YMdTPmgNQe9o8TsR1HuRCfzE1Pbg2l9q7gBE3dD1Mf t6a1CJALvKHgv4FLclb6NAOJo+sigYmIZlWb9xtJXxCFIUq1UJt4Rzc1PkFk3ZbMfj ZWUFbAvPIT04UDDFQHT9BhCxoJcRpK4jW61K3gUg= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49Q8ym5m37z6GD8r; Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:40 -0700 (PDT) To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , James N Guichard , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:58:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 17:58:44 -0000 The reason it (monitoring of SF functioning) is out of scope is that properly monitoring applications (which is fundamentally what service functions are) is a complex activity (art, from what I know of it). It can not be done simply with data plane packets flowing through the service function path. In fact, many of the most obvious techniques produce misleading and incorrect results. I expect you know better than I what the current state of the art is for systems that monitor the liveness and correct operation of applications (including packet handling applications). I fear that even trying to put text explaining this in the document could be confusing. What I was reacting to specifically was the proposed text that seemed to imply that SFC would undertake work in this area. That is not in our charter, and I do not want to mislead readers into believing that we will solve this problem for them. As far as I know there is no IETF working group tackling this, or I would be happy to point at that work. Yours, Joel On 5/17/2020 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halpern > wrote: > > Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss.  So I am not sure what your > stance is. > > > I cleared my DISCUSS because the discussion I wanted to have took > place.  As my comment now shows, I'm still left with the feeling that > this is a weak point in the document, but I'm not sufficiently concerned > as to obstruct its progress. > > However, I think it's significant that two other Area Directors also > remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUSS. > > I suggest that if this aspect of the work is truly out of scope, the > document could perhaps explain why that is, because it certainly feels > like it needs more attention. > > -MSK From nobody Sun May 17 12:29:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229723A0762; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ErMTaNq04g94; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FA623A074B; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id v26so4328057vsa.1; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZzkPPNEx8ZFeSZEpRuBN7mqvofAVg9Rlc0dc1hsSyvc=; b=ft1kA8Q10DZj+XkV1blOKMysh/9WhNN7L3YqmTJHVhP+n69RDtmtPKmr6AOicoRJPV QoxUiah2zlWvGKJ6jakdJTAz+kQevqQFjJRXxc8t2lx/NoWTDRbUu3rHVx48IwPmaWA0 zPZsc+R5J01qq/pkSHkYmIp0YFohCkayfEoSH1enXu9QQCRJgKWxmlga7DIe140HiYYD ZTggeK7YEMC0A7N0q/1y2+ltnLNGu2EjBirqZUTJV8Bs9o0e7gFDtrk4TqLmYt5kX8Za IDhY8kWSAdlW5sqb9WueIg/WJovoOufT4TEFSGkNsW1ExvUmsQMWLP1/Va4QBCLOTxH8 d5Ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZzkPPNEx8ZFeSZEpRuBN7mqvofAVg9Rlc0dc1hsSyvc=; b=Lq6DdTjRqMwBXpwCarkmFlGICsAjTLTlDNrVHPsQEoquQ7JWGK7ez3ZeD+OsyhSS7/ Z3yGpyn4j9EK08ZgkcwIsk0ffbArUhmSOuWUbt/JKyOqbibX9YPuL1+BxtRQrLQW/xaY nnZD5w25mUlNV5v/gHuL7wvNX4V+ioCfEOP5W/j2off7jfXTW6bmEUsdgsuCwqdJyFoX rdAxE5XK3vReyu1FUQIXEyp9dtpSxn1GVfdOg87SR0O4imNHoQat8wSqDY+EGs28oK88 pL/DpNj40koAd095Buqgze5TRbcGEaM7HIjHFy/qo44dNnEK3PUITBUKQ5GryEveE75x xVYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333QTfHI4Rm/TS/s3Bv4AzqWG4+JdDIMPQrtQDxUhi4GrpDPP25 MflpEKwyhvF55+poN9UBLJ9cg/kvZhSiaefU10Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNDgH6Y1aQ30/jClNGx2MMUZ+/PUQD0VMftDK0l+QPTykoCW+W2D2ChZ/Jr/7P7diq9mpcN/zIShix1oS2BTk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f7c9:: with SMTP id a9mr8767776vsp.7.1589743752611; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 12:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , James N Guichard , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a88b6e05a5dd0f82" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:29:16 -0000 --000000000000a88b6e05a5dd0f82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Emphatically, these are only comments at this point. I'm not out to ruin the document or the WG's product. The document is free to proceed. But since we're still discussing it, I might have more to offer here. To me, the only prose in 3.1.1 of the current version that alludes to the challenges to which you're referring is this: "More specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment-specific." If I think of an SF as an application (and you appear to concur that that's basically what they are), it seems to me they could, for example, expose a common status API that answers a simple query, to which a positive answer means "I am up and providing the service you configured me to provide". The fine-grained, implementation-specific concerns would be hidden behind that API. Naturally, you have to trust the SF's response not to be a lie, but this is to my mind far more palatable than the cheaper "availability" query the document also discusses. As this is a framework document, it could propose such a thing, even if it's ultimately an optional thing for SF implementers to consider. It nags at me that the above is impossible for some reason, and the document doesn't explain why. Still, I don't write or use SFs or query them, so I'm happy to cede ground to the working group on this topic. Maybe they discussed including this and decided not to, and that's fine too. In the spirit of contributing, perhaps capturing some of what you said would help: "The task of evaluating the true availability of a Service Function is a complex activity, currently having no simple, unified solution. There is currently no standard means of doing so, and accordingly none is proposed here." If that were in the document, I would've taken your word for it. (I might ask why you're not proposing one, given my possibly simple-minded view, but I probably wouldn't have DISCUSSed it.) It tells me the WG thought about this, but made the deliberate decision not to include it. If the current text was meant to say that, I simply didn't get it. All the current text says to me (and admittedly I'm paraphrasing here, leaning toward being flippant) is "You can be lazy about it, or you can do a thorough job." Thus, I wondered why you would enable anyone leaning toward the left part of that sentence when there are other possibilities, and my DISCUSS was meant to dig a little deeper here. At your service, -MSK On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:58 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > The reason it (monitoring of SF functioning) is out of scope is that > properly monitoring applications (which is fundamentally what service > functions are) is a complex activity (art, from what I know of it). It > can not be done simply with data plane packets flowing through the > service function path. In fact, many of the most obvious techniques > produce misleading and incorrect results. I expect you know better than > I what the current state of the art is for systems that monitor the > liveness and correct operation of applications (including packet > handling applications). > > I fear that even trying to put text explaining this in the document > could be confusing. > > What I was reacting to specifically was the proposed text that seemed to > imply that SFC would undertake work in this area. That is not in our > charter, and I do not want to mislead readers into believing that we > will solve this problem for them. As far as I know there is no IETF > working group tackling this, or I would be happy to point at that work. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 5/17/2020 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halpern > > wrote: > > > > Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss. So I am not sure what your > > stance is. > > > > > > I cleared my DISCUSS because the discussion I wanted to have took > > place. As my comment now shows, I'm still left with the feeling that > > this is a weak point in the document, but I'm not sufficiently concerned > > as to obstruct its progress. > > > > However, I think it's significant that two other Area Directors also > > remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUSS. > > > > I suggest that if this aspect of the work is truly out of scope, the > > document could perhaps explain why that is, because it certainly feels > > like it needs more attention. > > > > -MSK > --000000000000a88b6e05a5dd0f82 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Emphatically, these are only comments at this point.= =C2=A0 I'm not out to ruin the document or the WG's product.=C2=A0 = The document is free to proceed.=C2=A0 But since we're still discussing= it, I might have more to offer here.

To me, t= he only prose in 3.1.1 of the current version that alludes to the challenge= s to which you're referring is this:

"= ;More specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to validat= e the service offering are outside the scope of this document. Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment-specific.&= quot;

If I think of an SF as an application (and y= ou appear to concur that that's basically what they are), it seems to m= e they could, for example, expose a common status API that answers a simple= query, to which a positive answer means "I am up and providing the se= rvice you configured me to provide".=C2=A0 The fine-grained, implement= ation-specific concerns would be hidden behind that API.=C2=A0 Naturally, y= ou have to trust the SF's response not to be a lie, but this is to my m= ind far more palatable than the cheaper "availability" query the = document also discusses.=C2=A0 As this is a framework document, it could pr= opose such a thing, even if it's ultimately an optional thing for SF im= plementers to consider.

It nags at me that the= above is impossible for some reason, and the document doesn't explain = why.=C2=A0 Still, I don't write or use SFs or query them, so I'm ha= ppy to cede ground to the working group on this topic.=C2=A0 Maybe they dis= cussed including this and decided not to, and that's fine too.

In the spirit of contributing, perhaps capturing some = of what you said would help:

"The task of eva= luating the true availability of a Service Function is a complex activity, = currently having no simple, unified solution.=C2=A0 There is currently no s= tandard means of doing so, and accordingly none is proposed here."
=

If that were in the document, I would've take= n your word for it.=C2=A0 (I might ask why you're not proposing one, gi= ven my possibly simple-minded view, but I probably wouldn't have DISCUS= Sed it.)=C2=A0 It tells me the WG thought about this, but made the delibera= te decision not to include it.=C2=A0 If the current text was meant to say t= hat, I simply didn't get it.=C2=A0 All the current text says to me (and= admittedly I'm paraphrasing here, leaning toward being flippant) is &q= uot;You can be lazy about it, or you can do a thorough job."=C2=A0 Thu= s, I wondered why you would enable anyone leaning toward the left part of t= hat sentence when there are other possibilities, and my DISCUSS was meant t= o dig a little deeper here.

At your service,

-MSK


On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:58 AM = Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.= com> wrote:
The reason it (monitoring of SF functioning) is out of scope is that properly monitoring applications (which is fundamentally what service
functions are) is a complex activity (art, from what I know of it).=C2=A0 I= t
can not be done simply with data plane packets flowing through the
service function path.=C2=A0 In fact, many of the most obvious techniques <= br> produce misleading and incorrect results.=C2=A0 I expect you know better th= an
I what the current state of the art is for systems that monitor the
liveness and correct operation of applications (including packet
handling applications).

I fear that even trying to put text explaining this in the document
could be confusing.

What I was reacting to specifically was the proposed text that seemed to imply that SFC would undertake work in this area.=C2=A0 That is not in our =
charter, and I do not want to mislead readers into believing that we
will solve this problem for them.=C2=A0 As far as I know there is no IETF <= br> working group tackling this, or I would be happy to point at that work.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/17/2020 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss.=C2=A0 So I = am not sure what your
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stance is.
>
>
> I cleared my DISCUSS because the discussion I wanted to have took
> place.=C2=A0 As my comment now shows, I'm still left with the feel= ing that
> this is a weak point in the document, but I'm not sufficiently con= cerned
> as to obstruct its progress.
>
> However, I think it's significant that two other Area Directors al= so
> remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUSS.
>
> I suggest that if this aspect of the work is truly out of scope, the <= br> > document could perhaps explain why that is, because it certainly feels=
> like it needs more attention.
>
> -MSK
--000000000000a88b6e05a5dd0f82-- From nobody Sun May 17 12:36:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E633A077C; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHPWqRkArIsJ; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BA383A0771; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49QC721HCxz6GJ39; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:35:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589744158; bh=VzVgqVUlJT7MFO9iTqiZaJScwwt7iMyS5J/+NnZiR70=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ogLxVCKkuKtkGzxvfm95FWspWvvoLcTSEaROoJllRmq+xu+yq7mrAcCp9qAq8svHm hodeEr4Xc0Lrf6YewvROoWaGljJ47SY3QrAt8EpYzmSA1piKsEcm0yVzkGecjOObEF lkqRW21olWV23q9Tk1YMlkXA1wPo27/MLsUgs1pY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49QC700HRgz6GHXY; Sun, 17 May 2020 12:35:55 -0700 (PDT) To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , James N Guichard , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 15:35:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:36:00 -0000 Your suggested text below works well for me. If the authors and Shepherd agree, we can do that. I hope that will also improve the situation for Alvaro. I have some experiential reasons for not wanting to define the API you allude to. I (and others) did think about it. But those are not the WGs reasons. We can chat about that in some informal context. As chair, a big part of my concern is that I have enough trouble getting the WG to engage on the existing necessary work. Committing to something else seems a bad idea. Jim and I are having enough trouble getting substantive WG engagement on our commitment to the IESG to deal with security. So, again, the text suggestion below makes sense to me, and my thanks for your crafting it. Yours, Joel On 5/17/2020 3:29 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > Emphatically, these are only comments at this point.  I'm not out to > ruin the document or the WG's product.  The document is free to > proceed.  But since we're still discussing it, I might have more to > offer here. > > To me, the only prose in 3.1.1 of the current version that alludes to > the challenges to which you're referring is this: > > "More specifics on the mechanism to characterize SF-specific OAM to > validate the service offering are outside the scope of this document. > Those fine-grained mechanisms are implementation- and deployment-specific." > > If I think of an SF as an application (and you appear to concur that > that's basically what they are), it seems to me they could, for example, > expose a common status API that answers a simple query, to which a > positive answer means "I am up and providing the service you configured > me to provide".  The fine-grained, implementation-specific concerns > would be hidden behind that API.  Naturally, you have to trust the SF's > response not to be a lie, but this is to my mind far more palatable than > the cheaper "availability" query the document also discusses.  As this > is a framework document, it could propose such a thing, even if it's > ultimately an optional thing for SF implementers to consider. > > It nags at me that the above is impossible for some reason, and the > document doesn't explain why.  Still, I don't write or use SFs or query > them, so I'm happy to cede ground to the working group on this topic. > Maybe they discussed including this and decided not to, and that's fine too. > > In the spirit of contributing, perhaps capturing some of what you said > would help: > > "The task of evaluating the true availability of a Service Function is a > complex activity, currently having no simple, unified solution.  There > is currently no standard means of doing so, and accordingly none is > proposed here." > > If that were in the document, I would've taken your word for it.  (I > might ask why you're not proposing one, given my possibly simple-minded > view, but I probably wouldn't have DISCUSSed it.)  It tells me the WG > thought about this, but made the deliberate decision not to include it. > If the current text was meant to say that, I simply didn't get it.  All > the current text says to me (and admittedly I'm paraphrasing here, > leaning toward being flippant) is "You can be lazy about it, or you can > do a thorough job."  Thus, I wondered why you would enable anyone > leaning toward the left part of that sentence when there are other > possibilities, and my DISCUSS was meant to dig a little deeper here. > > At your service, > > -MSK > > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:58 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > The reason it (monitoring of SF functioning) is out of scope is that > properly monitoring applications (which is fundamentally what service > functions are) is a complex activity (art, from what I know of it).  It > can not be done simply with data plane packets flowing through the > service function path.  In fact, many of the most obvious techniques > produce misleading and incorrect results.  I expect you know better > than > I what the current state of the art is for systems that monitor the > liveness and correct operation of applications (including packet > handling applications). > > I fear that even trying to put text explaining this in the document > could be confusing. > > What I was reacting to specifically was the proposed text that > seemed to > imply that SFC would undertake work in this area.  That is not in our > charter, and I do not want to mislead readers into believing that we > will solve this problem for them.  As far as I know there is no IETF > working group tackling this, or I would be happy to point at that work. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 5/17/2020 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 9:07 AM Joel Halpern > > >> wrote: > > > >     Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss.  So I am not sure > what your > >     stance is. > > > > > > I cleared my DISCUSS because the discussion I wanted to have took > > place.  As my comment now shows, I'm still left with the feeling > that > > this is a weak point in the document, but I'm not sufficiently > concerned > > as to obstruct its progress. > > > > However, I think it's significant that two other Area Directors also > > remarked about it, one expressly referencing my DISCUSS. > > > > I suggest that if this aspect of the work is truly out of scope, the > > document could perhaps explain why that is, because it certainly > feels > > like it needs more attention. > > > > -MSK > From nobody Sun May 17 14:08:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6553A00C4; 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Sun, 17 May 2020 21:08:22 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Joel Halpern Direct CC: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , James N Guichard , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWJHUSzIlFpnls2Eevy32VcedASKiq1daAgAAjpQCAAYgwgIAAG+eAgAADF4CAABlBAIAAAesAgAAZ2TY= Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 21:08:22 +0000 Message-ID: <8E503177-E2F1-4018-B47A-A3C50E4F2154@cisco.com> References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: ja-JP X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [108.203.7.63] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1ee2380c-48f8-48e6-2bdc-08d7faa66ed8 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Kucherawy" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alvaro Retana , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , James N Guichard , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWJHUSxWAa/x1d8kG/HGJJVSYSb6iqkscAgABmtACAAYgwgIAAG+eAgAADF4CAABlBAIAAAesAgAAZ2ACAAJACgA== Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <34DBD897-5054-4EDC-8964-44DBA248BCA5@cisco.com> References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> <8E503177-E2F1-4018-B47A-A3C50E4F2154@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8E503177-E2F1-4018-B47A-A3C50E4F2154@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; 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Mon, 18 May 2020 07:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 18 May 2020 10:44:19 -0400 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 10:44:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , The IESG , Joel Halpern Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:44:23 -0000 On May 17, 2020 at 12:07:47 PM, Joel Halpern wrote: Joel: Hi! > Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss. So I am not sure what your > stance is. I've seen the proposed text and resolution to the DISCUSS. =C2=A0 I can live with the resolution. > And the particular change the authors have proposed seems to me to go > too far, apparently promising that SFC OAM will validity SF > functionality. That is out of scope for the document. > > Can you please clarify whether you feel there is still a discuss level > issue here? And if you can live without this change? In reading your other comments, I see your concern of setting expectations beyond what the WG, or even the RTG Area, would have expertise on. =C2=A0Personally, I think there's a difference between what an informational framework document may say and the expected product of the WG. =C2=A0IOW, a mention in the document shouldn't immediately translate into a work item. Because the document mentions the SF's ability to provide the service as important, then I still think that not mentioning that as a gap means that the document is incomplete. =C2=A0I am not looking for a solution in this document, and Murray's proposed text works for me -- maybe something could be added to it to explain why: Current> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The task of evaluating the true availability of a Service Func= tion is a =C2=A0 =C2=A0complex activity, currently having no simple, unified solution= . =C2=A0There is =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently no standard means of doing so, and accordingly none = is proposed =C2=A0 =C2=A0here. Add (Suggestion)> =C2=A0 =C2=A0... =C2=A0Any such mechanism would be far from a typical OAM f= unction, so it is =C2=A0 =C2=A0not explored as part of the analysis in Sections 4 and 5. Just a suggestion -- I am ok either way. Thanks!! Alvaro. From nobody Mon May 18 08:29:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317053A080B; Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jl_E05o7Oiv2; Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04DCB3A07E1; Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49QjcH5dMzz6G7vR; Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589815775; bh=HNVumXBx292c247EbrKL2nQQSahZXX10RQRzRmolwFk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=bkrtbNWlHgWWWj3oZb103GHhy8Za9RETS1UBAUG0FVKpQ5sKCdid+Nu3CWb3ZwnQp Jukg64nbLO+RRr8jAyC4FRzCiNoGXDWAWm4SRmZxliNrU9jWOA2cM5dB1UDMemph08 ue1WoI26x/F4QNGPKf4Yb9DqOqN8bbi0OxvnLT+k= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49QjcG3pwlz6GD9J; Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Alvaro Retana , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , The IESG , Joel Halpern Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" References: <158885879619.21045.4121183716505139454@ietfa.amsl.com> <9f34e226-9edf-0801-4d22-56d85e970d2a@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:29:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 15:29:37 -0000 Thanks Alvaro. I will leave this up to the authors and whelpherd, and get back out of the way. Yours, Joel On 5/18/2020 10:44 AM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > On May 17, 2020 at 12:07:47 PM, Joel Halpern wrote: > > > Joel: > > Hi! > > >> Alvaro, Murray no longer has a Discuss. So I am not sure what your >> stance is. > > I've seen the proposed text and resolution to the DISCUSS.   I can > live with the resolution. > > >> And the particular change the authors have proposed seems to me to go >> too far, apparently promising that SFC OAM will validity SF >> functionality. That is out of scope for the document. >> >> Can you please clarify whether you feel there is still a discuss level >> issue here? And if you can live without this change? > > In reading your other comments, I see your concern of setting > expectations beyond what the WG, or even the RTG Area, would have > expertise on.  Personally, I think there's a difference between what > an informational framework document may say and the expected product > of the WG.  IOW, a mention in the document shouldn't immediately > translate into a work item. > > > Because the document mentions the SF's ability to provide the service > as important, then I still think that not mentioning that as a gap > means that the document is incomplete.  I am not looking for a > solution in this document, and Murray's proposed text works for me -- > maybe something could be added to it to explain why: > > Current> >    The task of evaluating the true availability of a Service Function is a >    complex activity, currently having no simple, unified solution.  There is >    currently no standard means of doing so, and accordingly none is proposed >    here. > > Add (Suggestion)> > >    ...  Any such mechanism would be far from a typical OAM function, so it is >    not explored as part of the analysis in Sections 4 and 5. > > > Just a suggestion -- I am ok either way. > > > Thanks!! > > Alvaro. > From nobody Mon May 18 10:40:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9964E3A0A1A; Mon, 18 May 2020 10:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com 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<158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 13:20:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:21:12 -0000 Frank, regarding your comment about SF performance, I thought the document was pretty clear that we consider that out of scope (c.f. the discussions with the various ADs.) If you can see a place to add text, please propose text. Thank you, Joel On 5/20/2020 1:10 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Hi Nagendra, > > Thanks for the detailed reply. Please see inline (..FB). > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) >> Sent: Samstag, 16. Mai 2020 16:16 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >> >> Hi Frank, >> >> Thank you for the review. Please see inline for the response.. >> >> >> Reviewer: Frank Brockners >> Review result: Ready with Nits >> >> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's >> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written >> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's >> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the >> IETF >> discussion list for information. >> >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this >> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC >> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >> >> This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. >> >> Comments: >> >> Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit reference to multiple >> instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how availability of a SF >> is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. >> >> This is already clarified in the section as below: >> >> "For cases where >> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >> purpose of load sharing, SF availability can be performed by checking >> the availability of any one of those instances, or the availability >> check may be targeted at a specific instance." >> >> This further >> leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" state >> (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? >> >> The availability is measured as binary state. I am not sure what is >> 99% available. If it means getting 99 responses for 100 probes sent, I think it >> falls under packet loss category which in turn is performance measurement. > > ...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If availability is binary and I put the statements above together, what would be the availability of the following setup: There is an SF that is made up of 100 instances. 99 of these instances are powered down entirely. And the 1 instance that is "up" is alternating between servicing requests for 10min followed by not servicing requests for 10min. Would the SF be considered "available"? > >> >> Section 3.1.2 >> SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF deployment" on >> SF >> performance measurement? >> >> I think we covered this in SF availability but not here. Does the >> below updated text look better? >> >> OLD: >> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >> while the former does not. >> >> NEW: >> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >> while the former does not. For cases where >> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >> purpose of load sharing, SF performance can be quantified by measuring >> the metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics for >> a specific instance. >> >> The section only talks about loss and delay as >> performance criteria. It would be good to state that other performance >> criteria >> (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. >> >> We can add the below to Section 3.1.2: >> >> NEW: >> "The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF component is not >> just limited to loss and delay. Other metrics such as throughout also exist and >> the choice of metrics for performance measurement is outside the scope of this >> document." >> >> Section 3.2.1 SFC >> availability: The current definition is very focused on connectivity >> verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC transport >> packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my SFC process the >> packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the SFC >> definition, we might not call the SFC available. >> >> I think this is already handled by SF availability. The end-to-end SFC >> availability is verified by steering the OAM packet over the ordered set of SFs >> within the SFC. This is more like daisy chaining the availability of SFs within the >> SFC to determine end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution verifies the >> SF availability not just based on the uptime but based on the service treatment, it >> also answers the question "Does my SFC process the packets correctly". Let us >> know if there is any further clarity required. >> >> While 3.2.2 states that "any >> SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make performance >> measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO the ability for >> availability checks is probably a prerequisite for performance measurement. >> >> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial SFC availability >> verification is already mentioned in section 3.2.1 as below: >> >> " In order to perform service connectivity verification of an SFC/SFP, >> the OAM functions could be initiated from any SFC-aware network >> devices of an SFC-enabled domain for end-to-end paths, or partial >> paths terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP" >> >> Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if there is a lack of >> clarity. >> >> Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section only mentions the >> need >> for performance measurement. It misses the definition of what SFC >> performance >> measurement is. >> >> > > ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively improve the text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. > All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - not the service itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we focus a lot on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and from the washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing machine washes the clothes. > IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ the service (especially given that you define a service layer in section 2) - or clearly state that the framework would just focus on connectivity between SFs. > > >> >> Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the >> need for the ability to perform performance measurement of the classifier >> component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? What does >> performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? >> >> We can add the below text: >> >> OLD: >> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >> >> NEW: >> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >> The performance can be quantified by measuring the performance metrics of >> the >> traffic from the classifier for each SFC/SFP. >> >> Section 3.4. / >> 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: It would be good to >> add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for availability/PM which are >> offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay are used, rather >> than >> new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. >> >> Yes, that makes sense. Please check the below text: >> >> OLD: >> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. >> >> NEW: >> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. Any >> existing OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this purpose. >> >> Section 4. SFC OAM >> Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 could also include more >> "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). >> >> >> >> OLD: >> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >> SFF. As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, >> GPS, etc. >> >> NEW: >> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >> SFF. Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement >> Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active Measurement Protocol >> (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be used to measure the characteristics. As >> SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, Precision >> Time Protocol (PTP), >> GPS, etc. >> >> Section 4.4. >> Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the connectivity, >> rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? >> >> I am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you have any >> suggestion for the text improvement?. > > ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to assess how well the washing machine washes my laundry. > >> >> Section 5.1 >> OAM Tool Gap Analysis: >> - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be explained below the >> table >> and in section 1.2.1? >> >> Combining this with other below queries as they appears to be >> related. >> >> - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM >> (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. >> >> Per my understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag can be more >> than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think both are applicable here. >> My response regarding E-OAM details in this section is combined below. > > ...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I don't see text that refers to CFM or EFM OAM. Where is this covered? IMHO we would need references to IEEE standards to avoid confusion. > >> >> - "Trace" in the "Trace" column >> need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? IOAM- >> Loopback? >> >> IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as such but an IETF >> WG. >> Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? >> >> Combining the above queries. >> >> OLD: >> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >> are in existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of >> intermediate hops in a network. These tools support different >> network types like IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. There is also an effort to >> extend the tool set to provide connectivity and continuity checks >> within overlay networks. BFD is another tool which helps in >> detecting data forwarding failures. Table 3 below is not exhaustive >> >> NEW: >> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >> are used to perform connectivity check and tracing of >> intermediate hops in a network. These tools are already available for >> different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. >> >> E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms such as an Ethernet continuity check for >> Ethernet links. There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide connectivity and >> continuity checks for networks that use NVO3. BFD is used for the detection of >> data plane forwarding failures. > > ...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution and "NVO3 OAM" indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid forward looking references. Per my note above, it would be good to explicitly refer to IEEE standards as opposed to introducing a new term like "E-OAM". > >> >> The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP [RFC4656] and >> TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as IPPM in this section) to measure >> various performance metrics. MPLS Packet Loss Measurement (LM) and Packet >> Delay Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as MPLS_PM in this section) >> [RFC6374] offers the ability to measure performance metrics in MPLS network. >> >> Table 3 below is not exhaustive. >> >> Section 6.4.3 IOAM: >> - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform various SFC OAM >> functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: E.g. IOAM >> Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM Direct-Export >> Option >> Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM Active Flag >> (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? >> >> The intention of the section is to highlight the applicability of >> different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at service layer. I am not sure if we >> really should try explaining all the possible options within each tool. But I agree >> that it is worth clarifying the availability of IOAM options for tracing. think we >> can clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are available for OAM functions >> such as SFC tracing. Can you check if the below looks ok? >> >> OLD: >> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may be >> used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well. >> >> NEW: >> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), IOAM Option-Types >> such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to perform other SFC OAM >> function >> such as SFC tracing. >> >> - The text states >> "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM be used with the >> overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, see section 4.4.1 in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. >> >> The O bit referred here is not the O bit in IOAM but the one in >> NSH/Overlay header. To avoid any confusion, this can be updated as below: >> >> OLD: >> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability >> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >> >> NEW: >> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in the overlay header set, to perform SF >> availability >> and SFC availability or performance measurement. > > ... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not NSH, I'd rather explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized using NSH, then the O-bit in the NSH header could be used to indicated OAM traffic. You could refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-4.2 explicitly. > >> >> Section 6.4.4 SFC >> Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft (even calling out the >> fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that functionality is >> available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing the references >> to >> the expired draft and rather add references to OpenDaylight documents. - >> IOAM >> Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC Traceroute as >> well. >> >> Ok. Let me check if I can find some reference for ODL. >> >> Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading through the document >> ([x] >> references line number x) – hope that they are helpful in further improving the >> doc: >> >> Yes of course (. >> >> [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF >> >> Other RFCs uses "an SF/SFF". So the draft is updated accordingly. If >> your suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an SF", it is done (. >> >> [176] "OAM Controller" not defined >> >> We can change it as below: >> >> OLD: >> OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative >> domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >> >> NEW: >> OAM controllers are SFC-aware network devices that are capable of generating >> OAM packets. They are assumed to be within the same administrative domain as >> the target SFC enabled domain. >> >> [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest to make things >> generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. >> >> We changed this as virtual entities. >> >> This comment applies throughout the document. >> [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to physical layer Ethernet >> OAM >> (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? >> >> The response was provided in the above comment section. >> >> [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay >> network layer/ >> >> Done. >> >> [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network >> technologies"? For the underlay network layer several examples are listed. >> >> Ok. >> >> [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? >> >> The data plane elements connecting the overlay layer nodes may >> not always process the overlay header. > > ...FB: How about we explain this in the document? > >> >> [254] What does "tight coupling" >> between the link layer and the physical technology mean? >> >> I am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any difficulty in >> parsing the sentence? > > ...FB: Not sure what "tight coupling" means here. Could you clarify what is "tight coupling" vs. "not tight coupling"? > >> >> [255] Suggest to avoid >> terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards stay >> >> Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..." >> >> [256] Acronyms >> "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined >> >> Added. >> >> [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to >> always align with the underlay network in the diagram >> >> Fixed it. >> >> [287] s/may comprise >> of/may consist of/ >> >> We fixed it as "may comprise".. >> >> [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ >> >> We fixed this as "intermediate nodes not shown...: >> >> [307] >> s/devices/device/ >> >> Done. >> >> [308] What is a "controller"? >> >> We discussed this in the above comment section. >> >> [314] s/includes/include/ >> >> Done. >> >> [319] >> Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 >> >> This is expanded in the respective section. We added it in the >> acronym section as well. >> >> [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms >> in section 1.2.1 >> >> Ok, Done. >> >> [325] s/includes/include/ >> >> Done. >> [359] The function/term "controller" >> requires definition. >> >> Done, as mentioned in the above comment section. >> >> [383] s/?./?/ >> >> [398] s/get the got/got/ >> >> Done. >> >> [461] >> s/devices/device/ >> >> Done. >> >> [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service >> layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option for load-balancing? >> >> I didn’t see any discussion specific to ECMP/UCMP in the >> architecture RFC. > > ...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal cost multipath. >> >> [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the service plane. Isn't >> it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the SFC-related >> functions in the service plane? >> >> The service layer is established over the overlay network layer. I am >> not sure if it is right to say overlay network provides connectivity for service >> layer (. > > ...FB: Overlay network is one component of the service layer, isn't it. So it is required but not sufficient. > >> >> [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove >> "underlay" >> >> Done. >> >> [595] s/devices/device/ >> >> Done. >> >> [600] s/action/an action/ >> >> Done. >> >> [601] Expand on >> "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to acronyms in 1.2.1). Is this >> specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? >> >> TTL is listed as well-known abbrev in https://www.rfc- >> editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left it as it is. TTL in this >> document refers to NSH TTL field. > > ...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given that SFC can be done with other means than NSH, implicit reference to NSH might be a problem. >> >> [630] Mention that for "approximation of >> packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be applicable, SFC OAM packets >> would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. >> >> As it is intending to derive the approximate loss value, I am not sure >> if we need this additional consideration that the OAM packet would need to >> follow the live user traffic. Let me know if you think otherwise. > > ...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential complication. > >> >> [636] Is uppercase >> "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that >> RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >> >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of any >> normative statement. >> >> [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to >> acronyms in 1.2.1 >> >> Ok. Done. >> >> [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ >> >> Done. >> >> [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? >> Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >> >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of any >> normative statement. >> >> [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? Especially >> given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >> >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of any >> normative statement. >> >> [754] >> s/packet/packets/ >> >> [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ >> >> [771] How does this >> requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a node sends an >> ICMP >> reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. NSH. >> >> As mentioned in the statement, the node that initiates the OAM >> packet must set the marker and so this statement is applicable for the initiating >> node. >> >> [806] >> s/function/functions/ >> >> Done >> >> [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ >> >> Done >> >> [810] >> s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ >> >> Done >> >> [812] s/from last/from the last/ >> >> Done >> >> [830] >> s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ >> >> Done >> >> [834] s/with relevant/with the >> relevant >> >> Done >> >> [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC >> availability check./ >> >> Done >> >> [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative >> reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data >> >> [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 >> acronyms >> >> Done >> >> [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 >> >> Done >> >> Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >> >> Regards, >> Nagendra > > Thanks again for considering the comments in great detail. 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Wed, 20 May 2020 17:33:27 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" CC: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWK4yZCTVoPEQuPUSnCbQlB+5Xw6ixO/sAgAAGdAA= Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:33:27 +0000 Message-ID: <8A4968DF-45EA-49A6-B2EA-DEFAE23C942B@cisco.com> References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.71] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 413909f9-c7a9-482a-46f6-08d7fce3e804 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3828: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ECE21A5A-E1C9-4FF2-9278-599D1E29C171"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 413909f9-c7a9-482a-46f6-08d7fce3e804 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 May 2020 17:33:27.4935 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 18xb41pVUDecLUZwHj5kamOOWD9WJYK8ij7IEVDAF04MPC1StBUnfdisalJnKdzDPeID/zSDp1V1NCtNOdelEw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR11MB3828 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:33:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ECE21A5A-E1C9-4FF2-9278-599D1E29C171 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16C453EB-A2E9-49A3-BB5A-C6CF8DCFFAA3" --Apple-Mail=_16C453EB-A2E9-49A3-BB5A-C6CF8DCFFAA3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Frank, Only in regards to : > ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively = improve the text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. > All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - not = the service itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we = focus a lot on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and from = the washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing machine = washes the clothes. > IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ = the service (especially given that you define a service layer in section = 2) - or clearly state that the framework would just focus on = connectivity between SFs. And > ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to assess = how well the washing machine washes my laundry. Please follow the discussion at these threads: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/QlZKr42XbDImA3HxlEXhxDBv6gU/ = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/JT9MPKMqBdNx3S8m_yhdIUGaTEQ/ = Some of the resulting text is at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/1ZsLw6m1OeJRJfHW2TygxOyKPJk/ = Best, Carlos. > 2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C1:10=E3=80=81Frank Brockners (fbrockne) = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > Hi Nagendra, >=20 > Thanks for the detailed reply. Please see inline (..FB). >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) >> Sent: Samstag, 16. Mai 2020 16:16 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of = draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>=20 >> Hi Frank, >>=20 >> Thank you for the review. Please see inline for the response.. >>=20 >>=20 >> Reviewer: Frank Brockners >> Review result: Ready with Nits >>=20 >> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area = review team's >> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were = written >> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the = document's >> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also = to the >> IETF >> discussion list for information. >>=20 >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should = consider this >> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please = always CC >> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>=20 >> This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. >>=20 >> Comments: >>=20 >> Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit reference = to multiple >> instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how = availability of a SF >> is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. >>=20 >> This is already clarified in the section as below: >>=20 >> "For cases where >> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >> purpose of load sharing, SF availability can be performed by = checking >> the availability of any one of those instances, or the availability >> check may be targeted at a specific instance." >>=20 >> This further >> leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" = state >> (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? >>=20 >> The availability is measured as binary state. I am not sure = what is >> 99% available. If it means getting 99 responses for 100 probes sent, = I think it >> falls under packet loss category which in turn is performance = measurement. >=20 > ...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If = availability is binary and I put the statements above together, what = would be the availability of the following setup: There is an SF that is = made up of 100 instances. 99 of these instances are powered down = entirely. And the 1 instance that is "up" is alternating between = servicing requests for 10min followed by not servicing requests for = 10min. Would the SF be considered "available"? >=20 >>=20 >> Section 3.1.2 >> SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF = deployment" on >> SF >> performance measurement? >>=20 >> I think we covered this in SF availability but not here. = Does the >> below updated text look better? >>=20 >> OLD: >> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the = respective >> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >> while the former does not. >>=20 >> NEW: >> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the = respective >> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >> while the former does not. For cases where >> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >> purpose of load sharing, SF performance can be quantified by = measuring >> the metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics = for >> a specific instance. >>=20 >> The section only talks about loss and delay as >> performance criteria. It would be good to state that other = performance >> criteria >> (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. >>=20 >> We can add the below to Section 3.1.2: >>=20 >> NEW: >> "The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF component = is not >> just limited to loss and delay. Other metrics such as throughout also = exist and >> the choice of metrics for performance measurement is outside the = scope of this >> document." >>=20 >> Section 3.2.1 SFC >> availability: The current definition is very focused on = connectivity >> verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC = transport >> packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my SFC = process the >> packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the = SFC >> definition, we might not call the SFC available. >>=20 >> I think this is already handled by SF availability. The = end-to-end SFC >> availability is verified by steering the OAM packet over the ordered = set of SFs >> within the SFC. This is more like daisy chaining the availability of = SFs within the >> SFC to determine end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution = verifies the >> SF availability not just based on the uptime but based on the service = treatment, it >> also answers the question "Does my SFC process the packets = correctly". Let us >> know if there is any further clarity required. >>=20 >> While 3.2.2 states that "any >> SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make = performance >> measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO the = ability for >> availability checks is probably a prerequisite for performance = measurement. >>=20 >> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial SFC = availability >> verification is already mentioned in section 3.2.1 as below: >>=20 >> " In order to perform service connectivity verification of an = SFC/SFP, >> the OAM functions could be initiated from any SFC-aware network >> devices of an SFC-enabled domain for end-to-end paths, or partial >> paths terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP" >>=20 >> Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if there is = a lack of >> clarity. >>=20 >> Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section only = mentions the >> need >> for performance measurement. It misses the definition of what SFC >> performance >> measurement is. >>=20 >> >=20 > ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively = improve the text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. > All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - not = the service itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we = focus a lot on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and from = the washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing machine = washes the clothes. > IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ = the service (especially given that you define a service layer in section = 2) - or clearly state that the framework would just focus on = connectivity between SFs. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the >> need for the ability to perform performance measurement of the = classifier >> component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? What = does >> performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? >>=20 >> We can add the below text: >>=20 >> OLD: >> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>=20 >> NEW: >> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >> The performance can be quantified by measuring the performance = metrics of >> the >> traffic from the classifier for each SFC/SFP. >>=20 >> Section 3.4. / >> 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: It would = be good to >> add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for availability/PM = which are >> offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay are used, = rather >> than >> new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. >>=20 >> Yes, that makes sense. Please check the below text: >>=20 >> OLD: >> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay = network. >>=20 >> NEW: >> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay = network. Any >> existing OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this = purpose. >>=20 >> Section 4. SFC OAM >> Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 could also = include more >> "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). >>=20 >> >>=20 >> OLD: >> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the = egress >> SFF. As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, >> GPS, etc. >>=20 >> NEW: >> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the = egress >> SFF. Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement >> Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active Measurement Protocol >> (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be used to measure the characteristics. As >> SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, = Precision >> Time Protocol (PTP), >> GPS, etc. >>=20 >> Section 4.4. >> Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the = connectivity, >> rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? >>=20 >> I am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you have = any >> suggestion for the text improvement?. >=20 > ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to assess = how well the washing machine washes my laundry. >=20 >>=20 >> Section 5.1 >> OAM Tool Gap Analysis: >> - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be explained = below the >> table >> and in section 1.2.1? >>=20 >> Combining this with other below queries as they appears to = be >> related. >>=20 >> - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM >> (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. >>=20 >> Per my understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag can be = more >> than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think both are = applicable here. >> My response regarding E-OAM details in this section is combined = below. >=20 > ...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I don't see text that refers to CFM or = EFM OAM. Where is this covered? IMHO we would need references to IEEE = standards to avoid confusion. >=20 >>=20 >> - "Trace" in the "Trace" column >> need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? = IOAM- >> Loopback? >>=20 >> IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as such but = an IETF >> WG. >> Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? >>=20 >> Combining the above queries. >>=20 >> OLD: >> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and = trace >> are in existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of >> intermediate hops in a network. These tools support different >> network types like IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. There is also an effort = to >> extend the tool set to provide connectivity and continuity checks >> within overlay networks. BFD is another tool which helps in >> detecting data forwarding failures. Table 3 below is not = exhaustive >>=20 >> NEW: >> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and = trace >> are used to perform connectivity check and tracing of >> intermediate hops in a network. These tools are already available = for >> different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. >>=20 >> E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms such as an Ethernet continuity check for >> Ethernet links. There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide = connectivity and >> continuity checks for networks that use NVO3. BFD is used for the = detection of >> data plane forwarding failures. >=20 > ...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution and "NVO3 = OAM" indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid forward = looking references. Per my note above, it would be good to explicitly = refer to IEEE standards as opposed to introducing a new term like = "E-OAM". >=20 >>=20 >> The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP [RFC4656] = and >> TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as IPPM in this section) to = measure >> various performance metrics. MPLS Packet Loss Measurement (LM) and = Packet >> Delay Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as MPLS_PM in this = section) >> [RFC6374] offers the ability to measure performance metrics in MPLS = network. >>=20 >> Table 3 below is not exhaustive. >>=20 >> Section 6.4.3 IOAM: >> - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform various SFC = OAM >> functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: = E.g. IOAM >> Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM = Direct-Export >> Option >> Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM Active = Flag >> (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? >>=20 >> The intention of the section is to highlight the = applicability of >> different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at service layer. I am not = sure if we >> really should try explaining all the possible options within each = tool. But I agree >> that it is worth clarifying the availability of IOAM options for = tracing. think we >> can clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are available for OAM = functions >> such as SFC tracing. Can you check if the below looks ok? >>=20 >> OLD: >> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify = if >> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may = be >> used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well. >>=20 >> NEW: >> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify = if >> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), IOAM = Option-Types >> such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to perform other = SFC OAM >> function >> such as SFC tracing. >>=20 >> - The text states >> "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM be used = with the >> overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, see = section 4.4.1 in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. >>=20 >> The O bit referred here is not the O bit in IOAM but the = one in >> NSH/Overlay header. To avoid any confusion, this can be updated as = below: >>=20 >> OLD: >> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability >> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>=20 >> NEW: >> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in the overlay header set, to = perform SF >> availability >> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >=20 > ... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not NSH, I'd = rather explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized using NSH, = then the O-bit in the NSH header could be used to indicated OAM traffic. = You could refer to = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-4.2 = = explicitly. >=20 >>=20 >> Section 6.4.4 SFC >> Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft (even = calling out the >> fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that = functionality is >> available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing the = references >> to >> the expired draft and rather add references to OpenDaylight = documents. - >> IOAM >> Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC = Traceroute as >> well. >>=20 >> Ok. Let me check if I can find some reference for ODL. >>=20 >> Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading through the = document >> ([x] >> references line number x) =E2=80=93 hope that they are helpful in = further improving the >> doc: >>=20 >> Yes of course (. >>=20 >> [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF >>=20 >> Other RFCs uses "an SF/SFF". So the draft is updated = accordingly. If >> your suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an SF", it is done (. >>=20 >> [176] "OAM Controller" not defined >>=20 >> We can change it as below: >>=20 >> OLD: >> OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative >> domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>=20 >> NEW: >> OAM controllers are SFC-aware network devices that are capable of = generating >> OAM packets. They are assumed to be within the same administrative = domain as >> the target SFC enabled domain. >>=20 >> [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest to make = things >> generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. >>=20 >> We changed this as virtual entities. >>=20 >> This comment applies throughout the document. >> [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to physical layer = Ethernet >> OAM >> (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? >>=20 >> The response was provided in the above comment section. >>=20 >> [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay >> network layer/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network >> technologies"? For the underlay network layer several examples are = listed. >>=20 >> Ok. >>=20 >> [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? >>=20 >> The data plane elements connecting the overlay layer nodes = may >> not always process the overlay header. >=20 > ...FB: How about we explain this in the document? >=20 >>=20 >> [254] What does "tight coupling" >> between the link layer and the physical technology mean? >>=20 >> I am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any = difficulty in >> parsing the sentence? >=20 > ...FB: Not sure what "tight coupling" means here. Could you clarify = what is "tight coupling" vs. "not tight coupling"? >=20 >>=20 >> [255] Suggest to avoid >> terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards stay >>=20 >> Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..." >>=20 >> [256] Acronyms >> "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined >>=20 >> Added. >>=20 >> [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to >> always align with the underlay network in the diagram >>=20 >> Fixed it. >>=20 >> [287] s/may comprise >> of/may consist of/ >>=20 >> We fixed it as "may comprise".. >>=20 >> [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ >>=20 >> We fixed this as "intermediate nodes not shown...: >>=20 >> [307] >> s/devices/device/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [308] What is a "controller"? >>=20 >> We discussed this in the above comment section. >>=20 >> [314] s/includes/include/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [319] >> Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 >>=20 >> This is expanded in the respective section. We added it in = the >> acronym section as well. >>=20 >> [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms >> in section 1.2.1 >>=20 >> Ok, Done. >>=20 >> [325] s/includes/include/ >>=20 >> Done. >> [359] The function/term "controller" >> requires definition. >>=20 >> Done, as mentioned in the above comment section. >>=20 >> [383] s/?./?/ >>=20 >> [398] s/get the got/got/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [461] >> s/devices/device/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service >> layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option for = load-balancing? >>=20 >> I didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion specific to ECMP/UCMP = in the >> architecture RFC. >=20 > ...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal cost = multipath. >>=20 >> [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the service = plane. Isn't >> it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the = SFC-related >> functions in the service plane? >>=20 >> The service layer is established over the overlay network = layer. I am >> not sure if it is right to say overlay network provides connectivity = for service >> layer (. >=20 > ...FB: Overlay network is one component of the service layer, isn't = it. So it is required but not sufficient. >=20 >>=20 >> [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove >> "underlay" >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [595] s/devices/device/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [600] s/action/an action/ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [601] Expand on >> "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to acronyms in = 1.2.1). Is this >> specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? >>=20 >> TTL is listed as well-known abbrev in https://www.rfc- >> editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left it as it is. = TTL in this >> document refers to NSH TTL field. >=20 > ...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given that SFC = can be done with other means than NSH, implicit reference to NSH might = be a problem. >>=20 >> [630] Mention that for "approximation of >> packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be applicable, SFC = OAM packets >> would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. >>=20 >> As it is intending to derive the approximate loss value, I = am not sure >> if we need this additional consideration that the OAM packet would = need to >> follow the live user traffic. Let me know if you think otherwise. >=20 > ...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential complication. >=20 >>=20 >> [636] Is uppercase >> "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given = that >> RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>=20 >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of = any >> normative statement. >>=20 >> [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to >> acronyms in 1.2.1 >>=20 >> Ok. Done. >>=20 >> [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ >>=20 >> Done. >>=20 >> [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? >> Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by = the draft. >>=20 >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of = any >> normative statement. >>=20 >> [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? = Especially >> given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>=20 >> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of = any >> normative statement. >>=20 >> [754] >> s/packet/packets/ >>=20 >> [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ >>=20 >> [771] How does this >> requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a node = sends an >> ICMP >> reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. = NSH. >>=20 >> As mentioned in the statement, the node that initiates the = OAM >> packet must set the marker and so this statement is applicable for = the initiating >> node. >>=20 >> [806] >> s/function/functions/ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [810] >> s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [812] s/from last/from the last/ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [830] >> s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [834] s/with relevant/with the >> relevant >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC >> availability check./ >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative >> reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data >>=20 >> [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 >> acronyms >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 >>=20 >> Done >>=20 >> Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Nagendra >=20 > Thanks again for considering the comments in great detail. Much = appreciated. >=20 > Cheers, Frank --Apple-Mail=_16C453EB-A2E9-49A3-BB5A-C6CF8DCFFAA3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Frank,

Only= in regards to :
...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would = definitively improve the text. One problem about SFC performance remains = though IMHO.
All the text so far is focused on the = connectivity within a SFC - not the service itself. I.e. If you'd = consider a "laundry service" - we focus a lot on how long it takes to = get the clothes shipped to and from the washing machine, but we don't = focus on how well the washing machine washes the = clothes. 
IMHO we should either expand on the = performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ the service (especially given that = you define a service layer in section 2) - or clearly state that the = framework would just focus on connectivity between SFs. 
And
...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability = to assess how well the washing machine washes my laundry.

Please follow the discussion at these threads:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/QlZKr42XbDImA3HxlEXhx= DBv6gU/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/JT9MPKMqBdNx3S8m_yhdI= UGaTEQ/

Some= of the resulting text is at:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/1ZsLw6m1OeJRJfHW2Tygx= OyKPJk/

Best,

Carlos.


2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C1:10= =E3=80=81Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:=

Hi Nagendra,

Thanks for the detailed reply. = Please see inline (..FB).

-----Original Message-----
From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com>
Sent: Samstag, 16. = Mai 2020 16:16
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; = tsv-art@ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of = draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13

Hi = Frank,

Thank you for the review. Please see = inline for the response..


   Reviewer: Frank Brockners
   Review result: Ready with Nits

   This document has been = reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
   ongoing effort to review key IETF = documents. These comments were written
   primarily for the transport area directors, = but are copied to the document's
   authors = and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the
IETF
   discussion list for = information.

   When done at = the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
   review as part of the last-call comments = they receive. Please always CC
   tsv-art@ietf.org if you = reply to or forward this review.

   This document provides a reference = framework for OAM for SFC.

   Comments:

   Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text = makes explicit reference to multiple
   instances of a SF. Consequently, it should = be defined how availability of a SF
   is = computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed.

<Nagendra> This is already clarified in = the section as below:

"For cases where
  multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a = given SF for the
  purpose of load sharing, SF = availability can be performed by checking
  the = availability of any one of those instances, or the availability
  check may be targeted at a specific instance."

This further
   leads to the question, whether availability = is always a "binary" state
   (available / = not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available?

<Nagendra>The availability is measured as binary state. = I am not sure what is
99% available. If it means getting = 99 responses for 100 probes sent, I think it
falls under = packet loss category which in turn is performance measurement.

...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If = availability is binary and I put the statements above together, what = would be the availability of the following setup: There is an SF that is = made up of 100 instances. 99 of these instances are powered down = entirely. And the 1 instance that is "up" is alternating between = servicing requests for 10min followed by not servicing requests for = 10min. Would the SF be considered "available"?


Section 3.1.2
   SF performance: = What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF deployment" on
SF
   performance = measurement?

<Nagendra>I think we = covered this in SF availability but not here. Does the
below= updated text look better?

OLD:
On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be = quantified
  by measuring the loss and delay = metrics of the traffic from SFF to
  the = respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be
  measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics = from the respective
  SFs.  The latter = requires SF involvement to perform the measurement
  while the former does not.

NEW:
On the one hand, the performance of any = specific SF can be quantified
  by measuring the = loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to
  the respective SF, while on the other hand, the = performance can be
  measured by leveraging the = loss and delay metrics from the respective
  SFs. =  The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement
  while the former does not. For cases where
  multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a = given SF for the
  purpose of load sharing, SF = performance can be quantified by measuring
  the = metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics for
  a specific instance.

The section only talks about loss and delay as
   performance criteria. It would be good to = state that other performance
criteria
   (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) = exist.

<Nagendra> We can add the = below to Section 3.1.2:

NEW:
"The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF = component is not
just limited to loss and delay. Other = metrics such as throughout also exist and
the choice of = metrics for performance measurement is outside the scope of this
document."

Section 3.2.1 SFC
   availability: The current definition is = very focused on connectivity
   verification,= i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC transport
   packets?". IMHO we should also ask the = question "Does my SFC process the
   packets = correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the SFC
   definition, we might not call the SFC = available.

<Nagendra> I think this is = already handled by SF availability. The end-to-end SFC
availability is verified by steering the OAM packet over the = ordered set of SFs
within the SFC. This is more like daisy = chaining the availability of SFs within the
SFC to = determine end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution verifies = the
SF availability not just based on the uptime but based = on the service treatment, it
also answers the question = "Does my SFC process the packets correctly". Let us
know = if there is any further clarity required.

While 3.2.2 states that "any
   SFC-aware network device should have the = ability to make performance
   measurements" = a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO the ability for
   availability checks is probably a = prerequisite for performance measurement.

<Nagendra> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial = SFC availability
verification is already mentioned in = section 3.2.1 as below:

" In order to = perform service connectivity verification of an SFC/SFP,
  the OAM functions could be initiated from any = SFC-aware network
  devices of an SFC-enabled = domain for end-to-end paths, or partial
  paths = terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP"

Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if = there is a lack of
clarity.

   Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: = The section only mentions the
need
   for performance measurement. It misses the = definition of what SFC
performance
   measurement is.

<Nagendra>

...FB: Thanks for the suggested = updates, which would definitively improve the text. One problem about = SFC performance remains though IMHO.
All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a = SFC - not the service itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" = - we focus a lot on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and = from the washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing = machine washes the clothes. 
IMHO we should either expand on = the performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ the service (especially given = that you define a service layer in section 2) - or clearly state that = the framework would just focus on connectivity between SFs. 



Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions = the
   need for the ability to perform = performance measurement of the classifier
   component. What is performance measurement = of the classifier? What does
   performance = measurement of the classifier component comprise?

<Nagendra>We can add the below text:

OLD:
Any SFC-aware network device should have = the ability to perform
  performance measurement = of the classifier component for each SFC.

NEW:
Any SFC-aware network device should have = the ability to perform
  performance measurement = of the classifier component for each SFC.
   The performance can be quantified by = measuring the performance metrics of
the
    traffic from the classifier for each = SFC/SFP.

Section 3.4. /
   3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and = overlay network: It would be good to
   add = a sentence that states that the mechanisms for availability/PM which = are
   offered by the technologies used by = the overlay/underlay are used, rather
than
   new methods specifically for SFC would be = defined.

<Nagendra>Yes, that makes = sense. Please check the below text:

OLD:
Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to = perform
  availability check or performance = measurement of the overlay network.

NEW:
Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to = perform
  availability check or performance = measurement of the overlay network. Any
  existing= OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this purpose.

Section 4. SFC OAM
   Functions: It would be good, if examples in = section 4 could also include more
   "recent"= methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357).

<Nagendra>

OLD:
Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it = takes for
  a packet to traverse the SFC from = the ingress SFC node to the egress
  SFF. =  As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way
  delay [RFC7679] is important.  In order to = measure one-way delay,
  time synchronization = MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP,
  GPS, etc.

NEW:
Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it = takes for
  a packet to traverse the SFC from = the ingress SFC node to the egress
  SFF. =  Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement
   Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active = Measurement Protocol
  (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be = used to measure the characteristics. As
  SFCs = are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way
  delay [RFC7679] is important.  In order to = measure one-way delay,
  time synchronization = MUST be supported by means such as NTP, Precision
Time = Protocol (PTP),
  GPS, etc.

Section 4.4.
   Performance = Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the connectivity,
   rather than on the SF. How about covering = PM for the SF as well?

<Nagendra> I = am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you have any
suggestion for the text improvement?.

...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to = assess how well the washing machine washes my laundry.


Section 5.1
   OAM Tool Gap = Analysis:
    - Not sure what "NVo3 = OAM" refers to. Could that be explained below the
table
    and in section 1.2.1?
<Nagendra> Combining this with other below queries as = they appears to be
related.

- = E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM
    (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered = to here.

<Nagendra> Per my = understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag can be more
than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think both are = applicable here.
My response regarding E-OAM details in = this section is combined below.

...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I = don't see text that refers to CFM or EFM OAM. Where is this covered? = IMHO we would need references to IEEE standards to avoid = confusion.


- "Trace" in the "Trace" column
    need to be extended on. Is this = traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? IOAM-
Loopback?

    IPPM needs to be = detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as such but an IETF
WG.
    Does this refer to = OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM?

<Nagendra> Combining the above queries.
OLD:
There are various OAM tool sets available = to perform OAM functions
  within various = layers.  These OAM functions may be used to validate
  some of the underlay and overlay networks. =  Tools like ping and trace
  are in = existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of
  intermediate hops in a network.  These tools = support different
  network types like IP, MPLS, = TRILL, etc.  There is also an effort to
  extend the tool set to provide connectivity and = continuity checks
  within overlay networks. =  BFD is another tool which helps in
  detecting data forwarding failures.  Table 3 = below is not exhaustive

NEW:
There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM = functions
  within various layers.  These = OAM functions may be used to validate
  some of = the underlay and overlay networks.  Tools like ping and trace
  are used to perform connectivity check and = tracing of
  intermediate hops in a network. =  These tools are already available for
  different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, = TRILL, etc.

E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms = such as an Ethernet continuity check for
Ethernet links. = There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide connectivity and
continuity checks for networks that use NVO3.  BFD is = used for the detection of
data plane forwarding = failures.

...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution = and "NVO3 OAM" indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid = forward looking references. Per my note above, it would be good to = explicitly refer to IEEE standards as opposed to introducing a new term = like "E-OAM". 

The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP = [RFC4656] and
TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as = IPPM in this section) to measure
various performance = metrics. MPLS Packet Loss Measurement (LM) and Packet
Delay = Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as MPLS_PM in this section)
[RFC6374] offers the ability to measure performance metrics = in MPLS network.

Table 3 below is not = exhaustive.

Section 6.4.3 IOAM:
   - The section states that IOAM "may be used = to perform various SFC OAM
   functions as = well". It would be good to expand on this statement: E.g. IOAM
   Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for = SFC tracing. IOAM Direct-Export
Option
   Type could be leveraged. - How would we = deal with the IOAM Active Flag
   (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used = with SFC OAM?

<Nagendra> The = intention of the section is to highlight the applicability of
different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at service layer. I = am not sure if we
really should try explaining all the = possible options within each tool. But I agree
that it is = worth clarifying the availability of IOAM options for tracing. think = we
can clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are = available for OAM functions
such as SFC tracing. Can you = check if the below looks ok?

OLD:
[I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields = are
  transported using NSH header. =  [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit]
  defines = a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if
  a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. =  While the mechanism is
  defined inband = (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may be
  used to perform various SFC OAM functions as = well.

NEW:
[I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields = are
  transported using NSH header. =  [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit]
  defines = a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if
  a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. =  While the mechanism is
  defined inband = (i.e., it will be included in data packets), IOAM Option-Types
 such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to = perform other SFC OAM
function
 such as = SFC tracing.

- The text states
   "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": = Why would IOAM be used with the
   overflow = bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, see section 4.4.1 = in
   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09.
<Nagendra> The O bit referred here is = not the O bit in IOAM but the one in
NSH/Overlay header. = To avoid any confusion, this can be updated as below:

OLD:
In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set = to perform SF availability
  and SFC = availability or performance measurement.

NEW:
In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in = the overlay header set, to perform SF
availability
  and SFC availability or performance = measurement.

... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not = NSH, I'd rather explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized = using NSH, then the O-bit in the NSH header could be used to indicated = OAM traffic. You could refer to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-= 4.2 explicitly. 


Section 6.4.4 SFC
   Traceroute: = - This section refers to an expired draft (even calling out the
   fact that the draft has exipred), but also = mentions that functionality is
   available = and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing the references
to
   the expired draft and = rather add references to OpenDaylight documents. -
IOAM
   Loopback (see = draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC Traceroute as
well.

<Nagendra>Ok. Let me = check if I can find some reference for ODL.

   Detailed set of nits that I encountered = while reading through the document
([x]
   references line number x) =E2=80=93 hope = that they are helpful in further improving the
   doc:

<Nagendra> Yes of course (.

   [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly = SFC/SFF

<Nagendra>Other RFCs uses "an = SF/SFF". So the draft is updated accordingly. If
your = suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an SF",  it is done (.

   [176] "OAM Controller" not = defined

<Nagendra>We can change it as = below:

OLD:
OAM controllers = are assumed to be within the same administrative
  domain as the target SFC enabled domain.

NEW:
OAM controllers are = SFC-aware network devices that are capable of generating
OAM= packets. They are assumed to be within the same administrative domain = as
the target SFC enabled domain.

   [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no = containers? Suggest to make things
   generic= and talk about virtual and physical entities.

<Nagendra> We changed this as virtual entities.

         This = comment applies throughout the document.
   [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you = refer to physical layer Ethernet
OAM
   (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)?
<Nagendra> The response was provided in the above = comment section.

[243] s/uses the overlay = network/uses the overlay
   network = layer/

<Nagendra> Done.

[246] Could we add a few examples of "various = overlay network
   technologies"? For the = underlay network layer several examples are listed.

<Nagendra> Ok.

   [248] What does "mostly transparent" = mean?

<Nagendra> The data plane = elements connecting the overlay layer nodes may
not always = process the overlay header.

...FB: How about we explain this = in the document?


[254] What does "tight = coupling"
   between the link layer and the = physical technology mean?

<Nagendra>I = am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any difficulty in
parsing the sentence?

...FB: Not sure what "tight = coupling" means here. Could you clarify what is "tight coupling" vs. = "not tight coupling"?


[255] Suggest to = avoid
   terms like "popular" - popularity = can change, standards stay

<Nagendra> = Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..."

[256] Acronyms
   "POS" and = "DWDM" are not defined

<Nagendra> = Added.

[274] Link start/end-points don't = seem to
   always align with the underlay = network in the diagram

<Nagendra> = Fixed it.

[287] s/may comprise
   of/may consist of/

<Nagendra>We fixed it as "may comprise"..

[288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/

<Nagendra> We fixed this as = "intermediate nodes not shown...:

[307]
   s/devices/device/

<Nagendra> Done.

[308] = What is a "controller"?

<Nagendra> We = discussed this in the above comment section.

[314] s/includes/include/

<Nagendra>Done.

[319]
   Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section = 1.2.1

<Nagendra> This is expanded in = the respective section. We added it in the
acronym section = as well.

[320] Add IBN to list of = acronyms
   in section 1.2.1

<Nagendra> Ok, Done.

[325] s/includes/include/

<Nagendra> Done.
[359] The function/term = "controller"
   requires definition.

<Nagendra> Done, as mentioned in the = above comment section.

[383] s/?./?/

[398] s/get the got/got/

<Nagendra> Done.

[461]
   s/devices/device/

<Nagendra> Done.

[469] = Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service
   layer, or could unequal cost multipath also = be an option for load-balancing?

<Nagendra>I didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion specific = to ECMP/UCMP in the
architecture RFC.

...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal = cost multipath. 

[521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the = service plane. Isn't
   it that the overlay = network establishes connectivity for the SFC-related
   functions in the service plane?

<Nagendra> The service layer is = established over the overlay network layer. I am
not sure = if it is right to say overlay network provides connectivity for = service
layer (.

...FB: Overlay network is one = component of the service layer, isn't it. So it is required but not = sufficient.


[531] s/components/component/ [545] remove
   "underlay"

<Nagendra> Done.

[595] = s/devices/device/

<Nagendra> Done.

[600] s/action/an action/

<Nagendra> Done.

[601] = Expand on
   "TTL or other means" (TTL also = needs to be added to acronyms in 1.2.1). Is this
   specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4?

<Nagendra> TTL is listed as well-known = abbrev in https://www.rfc-
editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left = it as it is. TTL in this
document refers to NSH TTL = field.

...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given = that SFC can be done with other means than NSH, implicit reference to = NSH might be a problem. 

[630] Mention that for "approximation of
   packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" = to be applicable, SFC OAM packets
   would = need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic.

<Nagendra> As it is intending to derive the approximate = loss value, I am not sure
if we need this additional = consideration that the OAM packet would need to
follow the = live user traffic. Let me know if you think otherwise.

...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential = complication. 

[636] Is uppercase
   "MUST" = applicable to an informational document? Especially given that
   RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by = the draft.

<Nagendra> Based on = various reviewer comments, we removed the use of any
normative statement.

[666] Add = MPLS, TRILL to
   acronyms in 1.2.1

<Nagendra> Ok. Done.

[678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./

<Nagendra> Done.

[720] Is = uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document?
   Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is = explicitly referenced by the draft.

<Nagendra> Based on various reviewer comments, we = removed the use of any
normative statement.

[722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an = informational document? Especially
   given = that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft.

<Nagendra> Based on various reviewer = comments, we removed the use of any
normative = statement.

[754]
   s/packet/packets/

[755] s/to next node/to the next node/

[771] How does this
   requirement= align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a node sends an
ICMP
   reply? It would probably = make sense to scope the statement to e.g. NSH.

<Nagendra> As mentioned in the statement, the node that = initiates the OAM
packet must set the marker and so this = statement is applicable for the initiating
node.

[806]
   s/function/functions/

<Nagendra> Done

[809] = s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/

<Nagendra> Done

[810]
   s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/

<Nagendra> Done

[812] s/from last/from the last/

<Nagendra> Done

[830]
   s/perform continuity/perform the = continuity/

<Nagendra> Done

[834] s/with relevant/with the
   relevant

<Nagendra> Done

[835] = s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC
   availability check./

<Nagendra> Done

[851] For = "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative
   reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data

[905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1
   acronyms

<Nagendra> Done

[920] Add = a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241

<Nagendra> Done

Once = again, thanks a lot for the great comments.

Regards,
Nagendra

Thanks again for considering the = comments in great detail. Much appreciated.

Cheers, = Frank

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ZW5kcmENCj4gPg0KPiA+IFRoYW5rcyBhZ2FpbiBmb3IgY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRz IGluIGdyZWF0IGRldGFpbC4gTXVjaCBhcHByZWNpYXRlZC4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IENoZWVycywgRnJh bmsNCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPg0K From nobody Wed May 20 11:17:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B17A3A0C3D; Wed, 20 May 2020 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i5AVCwHlp86w; Wed, 20 May 2020 11:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F6013A0DD4; Wed, 20 May 2020 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49S1Db29J7z6G7rs; Wed, 20 May 2020 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1589998623; bh=zmevaRolPdmjEifbHv9fqnOGNpLG1E49+Ma0nB8W5Vs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=LbMRcG1FEQtF2Rq+VLV1X2vX0HTP/hbqhyQrTUw7Cv8Nh2POZsJdLlm+mvOtGtjNE BDAFX2lBkvbh0lpnLzX5wAlno58BzW/OSgVq7nOPaL+qSqPM8n2wv3bS6JSbjZmjMN 635dvDV98++G8pPMY5sD3g7PW3KMDNURkqObxU4I= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49S1DZ0Ml4z6G7lV; Wed, 20 May 2020 11:17:01 -0700 (PDT) To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:16:53 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:17:30 -0000 So the question now is whether the text Murray suggested suffices for you? (We are still waiting to hear from Alvaro.) Yours, Joel On 5/20/2020 1:41 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Thanks Joel. Per what I mentioned below, let's be clear that SF performance is out of scope for the doc. > And I think this was Alvaro's point as well. > > Cheers, Frank > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2020 19:21 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar Nainar >> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >> >> Frank, regarding your comment about SF performance, I thought the document >> was pretty clear that we consider that out of scope (c.f. the discussions with the >> various ADs.) >> >> If you can see a place to add text, please propose text. >> >> Thank you, >> Joel >> >> On 5/20/2020 1:10 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>> Hi Nagendra, >>> >>> Thanks for the detailed reply. Please see inline (..FB). >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) >>>> Sent: Samstag, 16. Mai 2020 16:16 >>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>> >>>> Hi Frank, >>>> >>>> Thank you for the review. Please see inline for the response.. >>>> >>>> >>>> Reviewer: Frank Brockners >>>> Review result: Ready with Nits >>>> >>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review >> team's >>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were >> written >>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the >> document's >>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and >>>> also to the IETF >>>> discussion list for information. >>>> >>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this >>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC >>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>>> >>>> This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. >>>> >>>> Comments: >>>> >>>> Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit reference to multiple >>>> instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how availability of a >> SF >>>> is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. >>>> >>>> This is already clarified in the section as below: >>>> >>>> "For cases where >>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>> purpose of load sharing, SF availability can be performed by checking >>>> the availability of any one of those instances, or the availability >>>> check may be targeted at a specific instance." >>>> >>>> This further >>>> leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" state >>>> (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? >>>> >>>> The availability is measured as binary state. I am not sure >>>> what is 99% available. If it means getting 99 responses for 100 >>>> probes sent, I think it falls under packet loss category which in turn is >> performance measurement. >>> >>> ...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If availability is binary and >> I put the statements above together, what would be the availability of the >> following setup: There is an SF that is made up of 100 instances. 99 of these >> instances are powered down entirely. And the 1 instance that is "up" is >> alternating between servicing requests for 10min followed by not servicing >> requests for 10min. Would the SF be considered "available"? >>> >>>> >>>> Section 3.1.2 >>>> SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF >>>> deployment" on SF >>>> performance measurement? >>>> >>>> I think we covered this in SF availability but not here. >>>> Does the below updated text look better? >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>> while the former does not. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>> while the former does not. For cases where >>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>> purpose of load sharing, SF performance can be quantified by measuring >>>> the metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics for >>>> a specific instance. >>>> >>>> The section only talks about loss and delay as >>>> performance criteria. It would be good to state that other >>>> performance criteria >>>> (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. >>>> >>>> We can add the below to Section 3.1.2: >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> "The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF component >>>> is not just limited to loss and delay. Other metrics such as >>>> throughout also exist and the choice of metrics for performance >>>> measurement is outside the scope of this document." >>>> >>>> Section 3.2.1 SFC >>>> availability: The current definition is very focused on connectivity >>>> verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC transport >>>> packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my SFC process >> the >>>> packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the SFC >>>> definition, we might not call the SFC available. >>>> >>>> I think this is already handled by SF availability. The >>>> end-to-end SFC availability is verified by steering the OAM packet >>>> over the ordered set of SFs within the SFC. This is more like daisy >>>> chaining the availability of SFs within the SFC to determine >>>> end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution verifies the SF >>>> availability not just based on the uptime but based on the service >>>> treatment, it also answers the question "Does my SFC process the packets >> correctly". Let us know if there is any further clarity required. >>>> >>>> While 3.2.2 states that "any >>>> SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make performance >>>> measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO the ability >> for >>>> availability checks is probably a prerequisite for performance >> measurement. >>>> >>>> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial SFC >>>> availability verification is already mentioned in section 3.2.1 as below: >>>> >>>> " In order to perform service connectivity verification of an SFC/SFP, >>>> the OAM functions could be initiated from any SFC-aware network >>>> devices of an SFC-enabled domain for end-to-end paths, or partial >>>> paths terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP" >>>> >>>> Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if there is >>>> a lack of clarity. >>>> >>>> Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section only >>>> mentions the need >>>> for performance measurement. It misses the definition of what >>>> SFC performance >>>> measurement is. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively improve the >> text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. >>> All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - not the service >> itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we focus a lot on how long it >> takes to get the clothes shipped to and from the washing machine, but we don't >> focus on how well the washing machine washes the clothes. >>> IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF wrt/ the >> service (especially given that you define a service layer in section 2) - or clearly >> state that the framework would just focus on connectivity between SFs. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the >>>> need for the ability to perform performance measurement of the classifier >>>> component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? What >> does >>>> performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? >>>> >>>> We can add the below text: >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>> The performance can be quantified by measuring the performance >>>> metrics of the >>>> traffic from the classifier for each SFC/SFP. >>>> >>>> Section 3.4. / >>>> 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: It would be good >> to >>>> add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for availability/PM which >> are >>>> offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay are >>>> used, rather than >>>> new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. >>>> >>>> Yes, that makes sense. Please check the below text: >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. >> Any >>>> existing OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this purpose. >>>> >>>> Section 4. SFC OAM >>>> Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 could also include >> more >>>> "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>> SFF. As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, >>>> GPS, etc. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>> SFF. Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement >>>> Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active Measurement Protocol >>>> (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be used to measure the characteristics. As >>>> SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, >>>> Precision Time Protocol (PTP), >>>> GPS, etc. >>>> >>>> Section 4.4. >>>> Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the >> connectivity, >>>> rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? >>>> >>>> I am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you have >>>> any suggestion for the text improvement?. >>> >>> ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to assess how well >> the washing machine washes my laundry. >>> >>>> >>>> Section 5.1 >>>> OAM Tool Gap Analysis: >>>> - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be explained >>>> below the table >>>> and in section 1.2.1? >>>> >>>> Combining this with other below queries as they appears to >>>> be related. >>>> >>>> - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM >>>> (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. >>>> >>>> Per my understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag can be >>>> more than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think both are >> applicable here. >>>> My response regarding E-OAM details in this section is combined below. >>> >>> ...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I don't see text that refers to CFM or EFM OAM. >> Where is this covered? IMHO we would need references to IEEE standards to >> avoid confusion. >>> >>>> >>>> - "Trace" in the "Trace" column >>>> need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? >>>> IOAM- Loopback? >>>> >>>> IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as such >>>> but an IETF WG. >>>> Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? >>>> >>>> Combining the above queries. >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>> are in existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools support different >>>> network types like IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. There is also an effort to >>>> extend the tool set to provide connectivity and continuity checks >>>> within overlay networks. BFD is another tool which helps in >>>> detecting data forwarding failures. Table 3 below is not >>>> exhaustive >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>> are used to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools are already available for >>>> different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. >>>> >>>> E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms such as an Ethernet continuity check for >>>> Ethernet links. There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide >>>> connectivity and continuity checks for networks that use NVO3. BFD >>>> is used for the detection of data plane forwarding failures. >>> >>> ...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution and "NVO3 OAM" >> indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid forward looking >> references. Per my note above, it would be good to explicitly refer to IEEE >> standards as opposed to introducing a new term like "E-OAM". >>> >>>> >>>> The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP [RFC4656] >>>> and TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as IPPM in this section) >>>> to measure various performance metrics. MPLS Packet Loss Measurement >>>> (LM) and Packet Delay Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as >>>> MPLS_PM in this section) [RFC6374] offers the ability to measure >> performance metrics in MPLS network. >>>> >>>> Table 3 below is not exhaustive. >>>> >>>> Section 6.4.3 IOAM: >>>> - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform various SFC OAM >>>> functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: E.g. >> IOAM >>>> Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM >>>> Direct-Export Option >>>> Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM Active Flag >>>> (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? >>>> >>>> The intention of the section is to highlight the >>>> applicability of different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at service >>>> layer. I am not sure if we really should try explaining all the >>>> possible options within each tool. But I agree that it is worth >>>> clarifying the availability of IOAM options for tracing. think we can >>>> clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are available for OAM functions >> such as SFC tracing. Can you check if the below looks ok? >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may be >>>> used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), IOAM Option-Types >>>> such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to perform other >>>> SFC OAM function >>>> such as SFC tracing. >>>> >>>> - The text states >>>> "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM be used with >> the >>>> overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, see section >> 4.4.1 in >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. >>>> >>>> The O bit referred here is not the O bit in IOAM but the >>>> one in NSH/Overlay header. To avoid any confusion, this can be updated as >> below: >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability >>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in the overlay header set, to >>>> perform SF availability >>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>> >>> ... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not NSH, I'd rather >> explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized using NSH, then the O-bit in the >> NSH header could be used to indicated OAM traffic. You could refer to >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-4.2 explicitly. >>> >>>> >>>> Section 6.4.4 SFC >>>> Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft (even calling out the >>>> fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that functionality is >>>> available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing the >>>> references to >>>> the expired draft and rather add references to OpenDaylight >>>> documents. - IOAM >>>> Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC >>>> Traceroute as well. >>>> >>>> Ok. Let me check if I can find some reference for ODL. >>>> >>>> Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading through >>>> the document ([x] >>>> references line number x) – hope that they are helpful in further improving >> the >>>> doc: >>>> >>>> Yes of course (. >>>> >>>> [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF >>>> >>>> Other RFCs uses "an SF/SFF". So the draft is updated >>>> accordingly. If your suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an SF", it is done (. >>>> >>>> [176] "OAM Controller" not defined >>>> >>>> We can change it as below: >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative >>>> domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> OAM controllers are SFC-aware network devices that are capable of >>>> generating OAM packets. They are assumed to be within the same >>>> administrative domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>> >>>> [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest to make >> things >>>> generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. >>>> >>>> We changed this as virtual entities. >>>> >>>> This comment applies throughout the document. >>>> [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to physical >>>> layer Ethernet OAM >>>> (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? >>>> >>>> The response was provided in the above comment section. >>>> >>>> [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay >>>> network layer/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network >>>> technologies"? For the underlay network layer several examples are listed. >>>> >>>> Ok. >>>> >>>> [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? >>>> >>>> The data plane elements connecting the overlay layer nodes >>>> may not always process the overlay header. >>> >>> ...FB: How about we explain this in the document? >>> >>>> >>>> [254] What does "tight coupling" >>>> between the link layer and the physical technology mean? >>>> >>>> I am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any >>>> difficulty in parsing the sentence? >>> >>> ...FB: Not sure what "tight coupling" means here. Could you clarify what is >> "tight coupling" vs. "not tight coupling"? >>> >>>> >>>> [255] Suggest to avoid >>>> terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards stay >>>> >>>> Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..." >>>> >>>> [256] Acronyms >>>> "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined >>>> >>>> Added. >>>> >>>> [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to >>>> always align with the underlay network in the diagram >>>> >>>> Fixed it. >>>> >>>> [287] s/may comprise >>>> of/may consist of/ >>>> >>>> We fixed it as "may comprise".. >>>> >>>> [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ >>>> >>>> We fixed this as "intermediate nodes not shown...: >>>> >>>> [307] >>>> s/devices/device/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [308] What is a "controller"? >>>> >>>> We discussed this in the above comment section. >>>> >>>> [314] s/includes/include/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [319] >>>> Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 >>>> >>>> This is expanded in the respective section. We added it in >>>> the acronym section as well. >>>> >>>> [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms >>>> in section 1.2.1 >>>> >>>> Ok, Done. >>>> >>>> [325] s/includes/include/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> [359] The function/term "controller" >>>> requires definition. >>>> >>>> Done, as mentioned in the above comment section. >>>> >>>> [383] s/?./?/ >>>> >>>> [398] s/get the got/got/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [461] >>>> s/devices/device/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service >>>> layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option for load- >> balancing? >>>> >>>> I didn’t see any discussion specific to ECMP/UCMP in the >>>> architecture RFC. >>> >>> ...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal cost multipath. >>>> >>>> [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the service plane. >> Isn't >>>> it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the SFC-related >>>> functions in the service plane? >>>> >>>> The service layer is established over the overlay network >>>> layer. I am not sure if it is right to say overlay network provides >>>> connectivity for service layer (. >>> >>> ...FB: Overlay network is one component of the service layer, isn't it. So it is >> required but not sufficient. >>> >>>> >>>> [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove >>>> "underlay" >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [595] s/devices/device/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [600] s/action/an action/ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [601] Expand on >>>> "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to acronyms in 1.2.1). Is >> this >>>> specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? >>>> >>>> TTL is listed as well-known abbrev in https://www.rfc- >>>> editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left it as it is. >>>> TTL in this document refers to NSH TTL field. >>> >>> ...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given that SFC can be done >> with other means than NSH, implicit reference to NSH might be a problem. >>>> >>>> [630] Mention that for "approximation of >>>> packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be applicable, SFC OAM >> packets >>>> would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. >>>> >>>> As it is intending to derive the approximate loss value, I >>>> am not sure if we need this additional consideration that the OAM >>>> packet would need to follow the live user traffic. Let me know if you think >> otherwise. >>> >>> ...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential complication. >>> >>>> >>>> [636] Is uppercase >>>> "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that >>>> RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>> >>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of >>>> any normative statement. >>>> >>>> [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to >>>> acronyms in 1.2.1 >>>> >>>> Ok. Done. >>>> >>>> [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ >>>> >>>> Done. >>>> >>>> [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? >>>> Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the >> draft. >>>> >>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of >>>> any normative statement. >>>> >>>> [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? >> Especially >>>> given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>> >>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use of >>>> any normative statement. >>>> >>>> [754] >>>> s/packet/packets/ >>>> >>>> [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ >>>> >>>> [771] How does this >>>> requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a >>>> node sends an ICMP >>>> reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. NSH. >>>> >>>> As mentioned in the statement, the node that initiates the >>>> OAM packet must set the marker and so this statement is applicable >>>> for the initiating node. >>>> >>>> [806] >>>> s/function/functions/ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [810] >>>> s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [812] s/from last/from the last/ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [830] >>>> s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [834] s/with relevant/with the >>>> relevant >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC >>>> availability check./ >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative >>>> reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data >>>> >>>> [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 >>>> acronyms >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 >>>> >>>> Done >>>> >>>> Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Nagendra >>> >>> Thanks again for considering the comments in great detail. Much appreciated. >>> >>> Cheers, Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> From nobody Wed May 20 13:59:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BFA3A07C5; Wed, 20 May 2020 13:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=QPLs1qUT; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=0TAlfzdl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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15.20.3021.020; Wed, 20 May 2020 20:58:51 +0000 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWIkc0q4UpHqu67ESlbizdVIKf+6ipMYIAgAgdBAD///zJAA== Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:58:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [136.56.55.90] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d3abe5c3-10f5-453d-5fca-08d7fd009974 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR11MB3889: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True 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LWRhdGENCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gWzkwNV0gQWRkICJDTEkiIHRvIHNlY3Rpb24gMS4yLjENCiAg ICA+ICAgICBhY3Jvbnltcw0KICAgID4gDQogICAgPiA8TmFnZW5kcmE+IERvbmUNCiAgICA+IA0K ICAgID4gWzkyMF0gQWRkIGEgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBORVRDT05GIC0+UkZDNjI0MQ0KICAgID4g DQogICAgPiA8TmFnZW5kcmE+IERvbmUNCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gT25jZSBhZ2FpbiwgdGhhbmtz IGEgbG90IGZvciB0aGUgZ3JlYXQgY29tbWVudHMuDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQog ICAgPiBOYWdlbmRyYQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIFRoYW5rcyBhZ2FpbiBmb3IgY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgdGhl IGNvbW1lbnRzIGluIGdyZWF0IGRldGFpbC4gTXVjaCBhcHByZWNpYXRlZC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBD aGVlcnMsIEZyYW5rDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gDQogICAgDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Wed May 20 17:40:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407A23A0943; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:39:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.0.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <159002159920.20380.17198581951445114526@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:39:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 00:39:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Network Service Header Metadata Type 2 Variable-Length Context Headers Authors : Yuehua (Corona) Wei Uri Elzur Sumandra Majee Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-05-20 Abstract: This draft describes Network Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) Type 2 variable-length context headers that can be used within a service function path. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed May 20 18:32:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3413A07B3; Wed, 20 May 2020 18:32:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.0.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <159002475304.18843.860108972896799971@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:32:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 01:32:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Active OAM for Service Function Chains in Networks Authors : Greg Mirsky Wei Meng Bhumip Khasnabish Cui Wang Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2020-05-20 Abstract: A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in networks is presented. Based on these requirements an encapsulation of active OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defects described. Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the definition of O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines how the active OAM message identified in SFC NSH. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed May 20 19:51:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65DA3A09D6; Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wbl2p7iyLYY6; Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 317C63A09DF; Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id h188so3611013lfd.7; Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ik/+JKOxO3RWLpZkwBiNql+yvtiBzUP4fqyT45Lrl6U=; b=YX3H/aWZgyEYtJUjPFlUWDZXixFZu3PgWI4ebHzIXFMAf26GBmZT8au/zfaP1nVe6J rbZ8vKkgRybghg5FeSeSkfnNefPbs5dYZO4eiuBLSsoo8Oh0DctVElH+1aaPzBSbHBt9 ay/inz26frIA6kMxJVLASvbUnPu3n3ymCi3mSreV31IvXt2a3h+5yyJjp8aJrUYhgofw rDvUnZOokW77K5xX50vjIiuj6ks0OcFFzYTEqlAg+E02G1Nr6qdBr+I3dr5TJGLd3Uvk xRzC6Fiv4JeYfpXgAMl3Utt75cUXC3rWQ2Qk65Ey9kyDjGUsWiSdMaCTSAqqJNqQlN63 GmAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ik/+JKOxO3RWLpZkwBiNql+yvtiBzUP4fqyT45Lrl6U=; b=O+2rNL6DtPZGzMbrgkDx4bM1vGQbF2b7bYbe/Iffdxj5yY32z4+dMbX2yW8mhTrHZQ 83nFfbvTyZbF0/qMAmNO9E77iKFdHXVYj9wPQbuxeY4Bw1etlh438W5o0R4A2jVwCKUO y3rStXj0z2c/e7/5Ip8iU5ZINL0x+G2oQ8V1NwrQXaCfy2p17sthsOiv5jbkE2X7OLyw K+ME1j5Hm2JYmOuXNXCF0DgD2FEzOM9gCpcKhkdbq5I8ZWfkB1eLCKOJeQkh9eQoDvEP KUqNglNxgQ3XZqqlUxgeomJeDFPPLd+uFPedIqgf9HVSatfle8ev79Wf1iWv5kiBf99G QX8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306IlBX0q+Mn+iB8RXhoJWPZdK+JCQmZUYWGJv+M6cQPWzRDJtg 4gbICRtrUwPlqrYaVQcbD40utVHHZ5aUtDkwwKJFcCLt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeUJFzyY1WyFcC2nHfkNU7sDEhlGBXaM8eVQzja27Swos8TwIF3LYc9MU/Tf7m2LOVzCGxmntxGAkkb2nu85w= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c616:: with SMTP id w22mr3760960lff.123.1590029489470; Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159002475323.18843.9559672930298713998@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159002475323.18843.9559672930298713998@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:51:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Service Function Chaining IETF list , sfc-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e70faa05a61f96b8" Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 02:51:36 -0000 --000000000000e70faa05a61f96b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, this version includes a minor update to the Security Considerations section. We, the authors, believe that the draft is ready for the WG LC. It defines an essential function of SFC OAM - SFP Echo request/reply. Per our analysis, existing OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping and SFP traceroute. Consider ICMP. When encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping function but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing tool. We much appreciate your comments and questions. Dear Jim and Joel, please kindly consider the WG LC for this draft. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt To: Bhumip Khasnabish , Cui(Linda) Wang < lindawangjoy@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky , Wei Meng < meng.wei2@zte.com.cn> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam Revision: 05 Title: Active OAM for Service Function Chains in Networks Document date: 2020-05-20 Group: sfc Pages: 18 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 Abstract: A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in networks is presented. Based on these requirements an encapsulation of active OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defects described. Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the definition of O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines how the active OAM message identified in SFC NSH. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000e70faa05a61f96b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
this version includes a minor update to the = Security Considerations section.
We, the authors, believe that th= e draft is ready for the WG LC. It defines an essential function of SFC OAM= - SFP Echo request/reply. Per our analysis, existing=C2=A0OAM mechanisms c= annot support both SFP ping and SFP traceroute. Consider ICMP. When encapsu= lated=C2=A0in NSH, it supports the ping function but, per our analysis, can= not be used as an SFP tracing tool.
We much appreciate your comme= nts and questions.

Dear Jim and Joel,
pl= ease kindly consider the WG LC for this draft.

Reg= ards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-d= rafts@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM
Subj= ect: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
= To: Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.= com>, Cui(Linda) Wang <= lindawangjoy@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Wei Meng <meng.wei2@zte.com.cn>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oa= m
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A005
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Active OAM for Service Function Ch= ains in Networks
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-05-20
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sfc
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 18
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-mul= ti-layer-oam-05.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-multi-lay= er-oam-05

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in network= s is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0presented.=C2=A0 Based on these requirements an encapsulation = of active
=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defe= cts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described.=C2=A0 Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the d= efinition of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines ho= w the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0active OAM message identified in SFC NSH.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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13:09:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joel Halpern via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.0.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: sfc@ietf.org, gregimirsky@gmail.com, Greg Mirsky , sfc-chairs@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org Message-ID: <159009178361.17795.5444551131750059691@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:09:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:09:44 -0000 Joel Halpern has requested publication of draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-07 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the SFC working group. 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15.20.3021.024; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:56:56 +0000 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWK4yQC3PtyMib00yLrf+zBdIUqaixLdAQgABOAwCAAkULcA== Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 07:56:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.51] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 71276aa0-3799-4210-7826-08d7fe25b2b3 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3798: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: 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base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 71276aa0-3799-4210-7826-08d7fe25b2b3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 May 2020 07:56:55.8867 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DFrcA8oUOJYmBpBatXvfoFaJLfDv1CBjrjjeFX9KB1DbWEkK6Qn3S3OF3Jm2zD0VTJxpkZN3Fddx24gHUrJW1w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3798 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 07:57:06 -0000 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Halpern" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWK4yQC3PtyMib00yLrf+zBdIUqaixLdAQgAARHwCAAAVcwIAACkiAgAKA76A= Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:33:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.51] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a48266a1-c3d3-4aeb-3dda-08d7fe334003 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3575: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 04111BAC64 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MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a48266a1-c3d3-4aeb-3dda-08d7fe334003 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 May 2020 09:33:56.5336 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6xl2sNxhgb5uScaSXBeLx5yX6UdMEQeCGp9CvWH7qjjN2RfLXBC071NlZT+Att/ndxcJAU2WMeHV7inbKsVNYA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3575 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 09:34:08 -0000 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IFs5MDVdIEFkZCAiQ0xJIiB0byBzZWN0aW9uIDEuMi4xDQo+ID4+Pj4gICAgICAgYWNyb255bXMN Cj4gPj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4+IDxOYWdlbmRyYT4gRG9uZQ0KPiA+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4gWzkyMF0gQWRk IGEgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBORVRDT05GIC0+UkZDNjI0MQ0KPiA+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4gPE5hZ2Vu ZHJhPiBEb25lDQo+ID4+Pj4NCj4gPj4+PiBPbmNlIGFnYWluLCB0aGFua3MgYSBsb3QgZm9yIHRo ZSBncmVhdCBjb21tZW50cy4NCj4gPj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4+IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ID4+Pj4gTmFnZW5k cmENCj4gPj4+DQo+ID4+PiBUaGFua3MgYWdhaW4gZm9yIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHRoZSBjb21tZW50 cyBpbiBncmVhdCBkZXRhaWwuIE11Y2gNCj4gYXBwcmVjaWF0ZWQuDQo+ID4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4gQ2hl ZXJzLCBGcmFuaw0KPiA+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4NCj4gPj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4NCg== From nobody Fri May 22 07:49:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1F93A0A34; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3QM1nSEPsliv; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C5B73A0A8D; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49T8WV56m6z1nw0y; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1590158934; bh=ywZPsvG1nclx6h2WprEHvh1CtvZ8WyA5t4MgcIFi2Ug=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fhZA2vI1H/w/j1IT5f2z1W7mQ1nqoaJTk+wnB74y9iYOkW0rdO5wt9lcgjpdgrdhP yvs8e+Q1hBr/qRX4JHZiu6zlisGIGT0TdARFneALo8wThnqjgXZZxw+GiHItJpw9V8 9koEWuMMqI1/6b5L+8/mBqOT1vDcfIneTGZsiOYs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49T8WT5lqCz1nvMj; Fri, 22 May 2020 07:48:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <17ce4af7-054e-226c-a97f-d37a2c9480f3@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:48:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:49:02 -0000 My basic concern is that if we go down the path you outline, it would suggest to the reader that the SFC working group expected to address the SF dimensions of the problem. I grant that they are real problems. But the SFC working group has neither the charter nor the expertise to address those problems. As far as I can tell, ART may have the expertise, and may not. And has shown no interest in the problem. So I am very reluctant to put a lot of verbiage into the RFC on SF monitoring. Given the above, can you live with Nagendra's text that you quote? Yours, Joel On 5/22/2020 5:33 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Joel, > > Nagendra suggested "The task of evaluating the true availability of a Service Function is a complex activity, currently having no simple, unified solution. There is currently no standard means of doing so. Any such mechanism would be far from a typical OAM function, so it is not explored as part of the analysis in Sections 4 and 5." in the related thread for discussion on availability. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/1ZsLw6m1OeJRJfHW2TygxOyKPJk/ > > It could well be that my expectations for a framework document differ from that of others. So please take this as a personal perspective. > My expectation for a framework document is that it identifies and describes the components for a solution. It can optionally also hint at potential approaches to a solution (independently whether these solution are already in scope of the WG or not), but does not have to provide these solutions. The document does a good job at most of these - but misses out on those things, where we currently don't really have a solution available, which are questions like > * How do we define availability for a SFC at service level? How do we define availability for a SF? > * How do we define performance for a SFC at service level? How do we define performance for a SF? > Right now the document focuses on those pieces of SF/SFC availability and performance that are connectivity related ("Packets traverse it"). > > A potential approach could be to decompose the problem, using the structure the document lays out - and put this into the context of SLA definitions. > > Why can we just say for e.g. SFC performance that SFC performance is a composite of > * link layer performance, > * underlay performance, > * overlay performance, > * service layer performance. > A SFC OAM solution needs to consider the performance measures across all those layers. > Consequently, for the performance of a SF, one needs to consider the aspects at each layer: > * link layer - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. Ethernet layer?" -> example: Leverage ITU-T Y.1731 > * underlay - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. IP layer?" -> example: Leverage OWAMP/TWAMP > * overlay - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. NSH layer?" > * service layer - Example "how well does the SF meet the criteria of an SLA?" > So e.g. 3.1.2 and 3.2.2 could explicitly expand on these aspects and state that apart from connectivity level measures (loss, throughput), service level criteria, typically defined as part of an SLA, are included in SFC performance characterization. IMHO this is a better approach, than either say "SF availability is a hard problem" (which is what Nagendra says in the above statement - and which is of course true) or just define the service aspects as out of scope for SFC OAM ("how clean are the clothes when returned from the laundry?"). > > My 2cents.. > > Cheers, Frank > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2020 20:17 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar Nainar >> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >> >> So the question now is whether the text Murray suggested suffices for you? (We >> are still waiting to hear from Alvaro.) >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 5/20/2020 1:41 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>> Thanks Joel. Per what I mentioned below, let's be clear that SF performance is >> out of scope for the doc. >>> And I think this was Alvaro's point as well. >>> >>> Cheers, Frank >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Joel M. Halpern >>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2020 19:21 >>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar >>>> Nainar >>>> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>> >>>> Frank, regarding your comment about SF performance, I thought the >>>> document was pretty clear that we consider that out of scope (c.f. >>>> the discussions with the various ADs.) >>>> >>>> If you can see a place to add text, please propose text. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 5/20/2020 1:10 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>>>> Hi Nagendra, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the detailed reply. Please see inline (..FB). >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) >>>>>> Sent: Samstag, 16. Mai 2020 16:16 >>>>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; >>>>>> tsv-art@ietf.org >>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Frank, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for the review. Please see inline for the response.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reviewer: Frank Brockners >>>>>> Review result: Ready with Nits >>>>>> >>>>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area >>>>>> review >>>> team's >>>>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments >>>>>> were >>>> written >>>>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to >>>>>> the >>>> document's >>>>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and >>>>>> also to the IETF >>>>>> discussion list for information. >>>>>> >>>>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider >> this >>>>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC >>>>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>>>>> >>>>>> This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Comments: >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit reference to >> multiple >>>>>> instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how >>>>>> availability of a >>>> SF >>>>>> is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is already clarified in the section as below: >>>>>> >>>>>> "For cases where >>>>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>>>> purpose of load sharing, SF availability can be performed by checking >>>>>> the availability of any one of those instances, or the availability >>>>>> check may be targeted at a specific instance." >>>>>> >>>>>> This further >>>>>> leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" state >>>>>> (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? >>>>>> >>>>>> The availability is measured as binary state. I am not >>>>>> sure what is 99% available. If it means getting 99 responses for >>>>>> 100 probes sent, I think it falls under packet loss category which >>>>>> in turn is >>>> performance measurement. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If >>>>> availability is binary and >>>> I put the statements above together, what would be the availability >>>> of the following setup: There is an SF that is made up of 100 >>>> instances. 99 of these instances are powered down entirely. And the 1 >>>> instance that is "up" is alternating between servicing requests for >>>> 10min followed by not servicing requests for 10min. Would the SF be >> considered "available"? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.1.2 >>>>>> SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance SF >>>>>> deployment" on SF >>>>>> performance measurement? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we covered this in SF availability but not here. >>>>>> Does the below updated text look better? >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >>>>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>>>> while the former does not. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the respective >>>>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>>>> while the former does not. For cases where >>>>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>>>> purpose of load sharing, SF performance can be quantified by measuring >>>>>> the metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics for >>>>>> a specific instance. >>>>>> >>>>>> The section only talks about loss and delay as >>>>>> performance criteria. It would be good to state that other >>>>>> performance criteria >>>>>> (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can add the below to Section 3.1.2: >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> "The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF >>>>>> component is not just limited to loss and delay. Other metrics such >>>>>> as throughout also exist and the choice of metrics for performance >>>>>> measurement is outside the scope of this document." >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.2.1 SFC >>>>>> availability: The current definition is very focused on connectivity >>>>>> verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC transport >>>>>> packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my SFC >>>>>> process >>>> the >>>>>> packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the SFC >>>>>> definition, we might not call the SFC available. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think this is already handled by SF availability. The >>>>>> end-to-end SFC availability is verified by steering the OAM packet >>>>>> over the ordered set of SFs within the SFC. This is more like daisy >>>>>> chaining the availability of SFs within the SFC to determine >>>>>> end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution verifies the >>>>>> SF availability not just based on the uptime but based on the >>>>>> service treatment, it also answers the question "Does my SFC >>>>>> process the packets >>>> correctly". Let us know if there is any further clarity required. >>>>>> >>>>>> While 3.2.2 states that "any >>>>>> SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make performance >>>>>> measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. IMHO >>>>>> the ability >>>> for >>>>>> availability checks is probably a prerequisite for >>>>>> performance >>>> measurement. >>>>>> >>>>>> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial SFC >>>>>> availability verification is already mentioned in section 3.2.1 as below: >>>>>> >>>>>> " In order to perform service connectivity verification of an SFC/SFP, >>>>>> the OAM functions could be initiated from any SFC-aware network >>>>>> devices of an SFC-enabled domain for end-to-end paths, or partial >>>>>> paths terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP" >>>>>> >>>>>> Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if there >>>>>> is a lack of clarity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section only >>>>>> mentions the need >>>>>> for performance measurement. It misses the definition of what >>>>>> SFC performance >>>>>> measurement is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively >>>>> improve the >>>> text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. >>>>> All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - >>>>> not the service >>>> itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we focus a lot >>>> on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and from the >>>> washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing machine >> washes the clothes. >>>>> IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF >>>>> wrt/ the >>>> service (especially given that you define a service layer in section >>>> 2) - or clearly state that the framework would just focus on connectivity >> between SFs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the >>>>>> need for the ability to perform performance measurement of the >> classifier >>>>>> component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? >>>>>> What >>>> does >>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? >>>>>> >>>>>> We can add the below text: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>>>> The performance can be quantified by measuring the >>>>>> performance metrics of the >>>>>> traffic from the classifier for each SFC/SFP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 3.4. / >>>>>> 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: It >>>>>> would be good >>>> to >>>>>> add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for >>>>>> availability/PM which >>>> are >>>>>> offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay are >>>>>> used, rather than >>>>>> new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, that makes sense. Please check the below text: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay network. >>>> Any >>>>>> existing OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 4. SFC OAM >>>>>> Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 could >>>>>> also include >>>> more >>>>>> "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>>>> SFF. As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, >>>>>> GPS, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>>>> SFF. Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement >>>>>> Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active Measurement Protocol >>>>>> (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be used to measure the characteristics. As >>>>>> SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, >>>>>> Precision Time Protocol (PTP), >>>>>> GPS, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 4.4. >>>>>> Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of the >>>> connectivity, >>>>>> rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you have >>>>>> any suggestion for the text improvement?. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to assess >>>>> how well >>>> the washing machine washes my laundry. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 5.1 >>>>>> OAM Tool Gap Analysis: >>>>>> - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be >>>>>> explained below the table >>>>>> and in section 1.2.1? >>>>>> >>>>>> Combining this with other below queries as they appears >>>>>> to be related. >>>>>> >>>>>> - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM >>>>>> (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Per my understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag can >>>>>> be more than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think both >>>>>> are >>>> applicable here. >>>>>> My response regarding E-OAM details in this section is combined below. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I don't see text that refers to CFM or EFM >> OAM. >>>> Where is this covered? IMHO we would need references to IEEE >>>> standards to avoid confusion. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - "Trace" in the "Trace" column >>>>>> need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? >>>>>> IOAM- Loopback? >>>>>> >>>>>> IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as >>>>>> such but an IETF WG. >>>>>> Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? >>>>>> >>>>>> Combining the above queries. >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>>>> are in existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools support different >>>>>> network types like IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. There is also an effort to >>>>>> extend the tool set to provide connectivity and continuity checks >>>>>> within overlay networks. BFD is another tool which helps in >>>>>> detecting data forwarding failures. Table 3 below is not >>>>>> exhaustive >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>>>> are used to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools are already available for >>>>>> different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms such as an Ethernet continuity check >>>>>> for Ethernet links. There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide >>>>>> connectivity and continuity checks for networks that use NVO3. BFD >>>>>> is used for the detection of data plane forwarding failures. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution and "NVO3 >> OAM" >>>> indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid forward >>>> looking references. Per my note above, it would be good to explicitly >>>> refer to IEEE standards as opposed to introducing a new term like "E-OAM". >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP [RFC4656] >>>>>> and TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as IPPM in this section) >>>>>> to measure various performance metrics. MPLS Packet Loss >>>>>> Measurement >>>>>> (LM) and Packet Delay Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as >>>>>> MPLS_PM in this section) [RFC6374] offers the ability to measure >>>> performance metrics in MPLS network. >>>>>> >>>>>> Table 3 below is not exhaustive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 6.4.3 IOAM: >>>>>> - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform various SFC >> OAM >>>>>> functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: E.g. >>>> IOAM >>>>>> Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM >>>>>> Direct-Export Option >>>>>> Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM Active >> Flag >>>>>> (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? >>>>>> >>>>>> The intention of the section is to highlight the >>>>>> applicability of different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at >>>>>> service layer. I am not sure if we really should try explaining all >>>>>> the possible options within each tool. But I agree that it is worth >>>>>> clarifying the availability of IOAM options for tracing. think we >>>>>> can clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are available for OAM >>>>>> functions >>>> such as SFC tracing. Can you check if the below looks ok? >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may be >>>>>> used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), IOAM Option- >> Types >>>>>> such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to perform >>>>>> other SFC OAM function >>>>>> such as SFC tracing. >>>>>> >>>>>> - The text states >>>>>> "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM be >>>>>> used with >>>> the >>>>>> overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, >>>>>> see section >>>> 4.4.1 in >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. >>>>>> >>>>>> The O bit referred here is not the O bit in IOAM but the >>>>>> one in NSH/Overlay header. To avoid any confusion, this can be >>>>>> updated as >>>> below: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability >>>>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in the overlay header set, to >>>>>> perform SF availability >>>>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>>>> >>>>> ... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not NSH, >>>>> I'd rather >>>> explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized using NSH, then >>>> the O-bit in the NSH header could be used to indicated OAM traffic. >>>> You could refer to >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-4.2 explicitly. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Section 6.4.4 SFC >>>>>> Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft (even calling out >> the >>>>>> fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that functionality is >>>>>> available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider removing >>>>>> the references to >>>>>> the expired draft and rather add references to OpenDaylight >>>>>> documents. - IOAM >>>>>> Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply SFC >>>>>> Traceroute as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok. Let me check if I can find some reference for ODL. >>>>>> >>>>>> Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading through >>>>>> the document ([x] >>>>>> references line number x) – hope that they are helpful in >>>>>> further improving >>>> the >>>>>> doc: >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes of course (. >>>>>> >>>>>> [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF >>>>>> >>>>>> Other RFCs uses "an SF/SFF". So the draft is updated >>>>>> accordingly. If your suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an SF", it is done >> (. >>>>>> >>>>>> [176] "OAM Controller" not defined >>>>>> >>>>>> We can change it as below: >>>>>> >>>>>> OLD: >>>>>> OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative >>>>>> domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> NEW: >>>>>> OAM controllers are SFC-aware network devices that are capable of >>>>>> generating OAM packets. They are assumed to be within the same >>>>>> administrative domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest to >>>>>> make >>>> things >>>>>> generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. >>>>>> >>>>>> We changed this as virtual entities. >>>>>> >>>>>> This comment applies throughout the document. >>>>>> [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to physical >>>>>> layer Ethernet OAM >>>>>> (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? >>>>>> >>>>>> The response was provided in the above comment section. >>>>>> >>>>>> [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay >>>>>> network layer/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network >>>>>> technologies"? For the underlay network layer several examples are >> listed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok. >>>>>> >>>>>> [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? >>>>>> >>>>>> The data plane elements connecting the overlay layer >>>>>> nodes may not always process the overlay header. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: How about we explain this in the document? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [254] What does "tight coupling" >>>>>> between the link layer and the physical technology mean? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any >>>>>> difficulty in parsing the sentence? >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Not sure what "tight coupling" means here. Could you clarify >>>>> what is >>>> "tight coupling" vs. "not tight coupling"? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [255] Suggest to avoid >>>>>> terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards stay >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..." >>>>>> >>>>>> [256] Acronyms >>>>>> "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined >>>>>> >>>>>> Added. >>>>>> >>>>>> [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to >>>>>> always align with the underlay network in the diagram >>>>>> >>>>>> Fixed it. >>>>>> >>>>>> [287] s/may comprise >>>>>> of/may consist of/ >>>>>> >>>>>> We fixed it as "may comprise".. >>>>>> >>>>>> [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ >>>>>> >>>>>> We fixed this as "intermediate nodes not shown...: >>>>>> >>>>>> [307] >>>>>> s/devices/device/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [308] What is a "controller"? >>>>>> >>>>>> We discussed this in the above comment section. >>>>>> >>>>>> [314] s/includes/include/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [319] >>>>>> Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 >>>>>> >>>>>> This is expanded in the respective section. We added it >>>>>> in the acronym section as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms >>>>>> in section 1.2.1 >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [325] s/includes/include/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> [359] The function/term "controller" >>>>>> requires definition. >>>>>> >>>>>> Done, as mentioned in the above comment section. >>>>>> >>>>>> [383] s/?./?/ >>>>>> >>>>>> [398] s/get the got/got/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [461] >>>>>> s/devices/device/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service >>>>>> layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option for >>>>>> load- >>>> balancing? >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn’t see any discussion specific to ECMP/UCMP in the >>>>>> architecture RFC. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal cost multipath. >>>>>> >>>>>> [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the service >> plane. >>>> Isn't >>>>>> it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the SFC-related >>>>>> functions in the service plane? >>>>>> >>>>>> The service layer is established over the overlay >>>>>> network layer. I am not sure if it is right to say overlay network >>>>>> provides connectivity for service layer (. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Overlay network is one component of the service layer, isn't >>>>> it. So it is >>>> required but not sufficient. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove >>>>>> "underlay" >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [595] s/devices/device/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [600] s/action/an action/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [601] Expand on >>>>>> "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to acronyms >>>>>> in 1.2.1). Is >>>> this >>>>>> specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? >>>>>> >>>>>> TTL is listed as well-known abbrev in https://www.rfc- >>>>>> editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left it as it is. >>>>>> TTL in this document refers to NSH TTL field. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given that SFC >>>>> can be done >>>> with other means than NSH, implicit reference to NSH might be a problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> [630] Mention that for "approximation of >>>>>> packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be applicable, >>>>>> SFC OAM >>>> packets >>>>>> would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. >>>>>> >>>>>> As it is intending to derive the approximate loss value, >>>>>> I am not sure if we need this additional consideration that the OAM >>>>>> packet would need to follow the live user traffic. Let me know if >>>>>> you think >>>> otherwise. >>>>> >>>>> ...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential complication. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [636] Is uppercase >>>>>> "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given that >>>>>> RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>> >>>>>> [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to >>>>>> acronyms in 1.2.1 >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok. Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done. >>>>>> >>>>>> [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? >>>>>> Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly >>>>>> referenced by the >>>> draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>> >>>>>> [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? >>>> Especially >>>>>> given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>> >>>>>> [754] >>>>>> s/packet/packets/ >>>>>> >>>>>> [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ >>>>>> >>>>>> [771] How does this >>>>>> requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case a >>>>>> node sends an ICMP >>>>>> reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. >> NSH. >>>>>> >>>>>> As mentioned in the statement, the node that initiates >>>>>> the OAM packet must set the marker and so this statement is >>>>>> applicable for the initiating node. >>>>>> >>>>>> [806] >>>>>> s/function/functions/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [810] >>>>>> s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [812] s/from last/from the last/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [830] >>>>>> s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [834] s/with relevant/with the >>>>>> relevant >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC >>>>>> availability check./ >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative >>>>>> reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data >>>>>> >>>>>> [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 >>>>>> acronyms >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 >>>>>> >>>>>> Done >>>>>> >>>>>> Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Nagendra >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again for considering the comments in great detail. Much >> appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Frank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> From nobody Fri May 22 08:03:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DD63A0A65; Fri, 22 May 2020 08:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=XhonX6Pf; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=WSGWMeID Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXHwCCX13KQq; 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Fri, 22 May 2020 15:03:27 +0000 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 Thread-Index: AQHWK4yQC3PtyMib00yLrf+zBdIUqaixLdAQgAARHwCAAAVcwIAACkiAgAKA76CAAGmbgIAAAX1Q Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:03:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> <17ce4af7-054e-226c-a97f-d37a2c9480f3@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <17ce4af7-054e-226c-a97f-d37a2c9480f3@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.51] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2604321e-53e8-423f-d802-08d7fe614867 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYASPR01MB0030: 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"last-call@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org" References: <158861910132.5213.12389985411421411727@ietfa.amsl.com> <17ce4af7-054e-226c-a97f-d37a2c9480f3@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <6d01e977-096c-b569-bc16-fca0f10ced76@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 11:17:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:17:56 -0000 Thanks Frank. Both for the review, and the discussion. Yours, Joel On 5/22/2020 11:03 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Per what I mentioned below - the below is my personal take, taking the position of a reader, who might not be aware of WG structures, WG scopes etc. Personally, I don't think that a reader of the SFC OAM framework document would expect the SFC WG to address all of the dimensions of SFC OAM, even if the document lays them out. > > That said, I do understand your concern about WG structures and scope. Looks like we (sadly) need to follow Conway's law ... > So in general terms, I'm ok with Nagendra's approach. > > Cheers, Frank > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 16:49 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar Nainar >> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >> >> My basic concern is that if we go down the path you outline, it would suggest to >> the reader that the SFC working group expected to address the SF dimensions of >> the problem. I grant that they are real problems. But the SFC working group has >> neither the charter nor the expertise to address those problems. As far as I can >> tell, ART may have the expertise, and may not. And has shown no interest in the >> problem. So I am very reluctant to put a lot of verbiage into the RFC on SF >> monitoring. >> >> Given the above, can you live with Nagendra's text that you quote? >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 5/22/2020 5:33 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>> Joel, >>> >>> Nagendra suggested "The task of evaluating the true availability of a >>> Service Function is a complex activity, currently having no simple, >>> unified solution. There is currently no standard means of doing so. >>> Any such mechanism would be far from a typical OAM function, so it is >>> not explored as part of the analysis in Sections 4 and 5." in the >>> related thread for discussion on availability. >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/1ZsLw6m1OeJRJfHW2TygxOyKPJk/ >>> >>> It could well be that my expectations for a framework document differ from >> that of others. So please take this as a personal perspective. >>> My expectation for a framework document is that it identifies and >>> describes the components for a solution. It can optionally also hint >>> at potential approaches to a solution (independently whether these >>> solution are already in scope of the WG or not), but does not have to >>> provide these solutions. The document does a good job at most of these >>> - but misses out on those things, where we currently don't really have >>> a solution available, which are questions like >>> * How do we define availability for a SFC at service level? How do we define >> availability for a SF? >>> * How do we define performance for a SFC at service level? How do we define >> performance for a SF? >>> Right now the document focuses on those pieces of SF/SFC availability and >> performance that are connectivity related ("Packets traverse it"). >>> >>> A potential approach could be to decompose the problem, using the structure >> the document lays out - and put this into the context of SLA definitions. >>> >>> Why can we just say for e.g. SFC performance that SFC performance is a >>> composite of >>> * link layer performance, >>> * underlay performance, >>> * overlay performance, >>> * service layer performance. >>> A SFC OAM solution needs to consider the performance measures across all >> those layers. >>> Consequently, for the performance of a SF, one needs to consider the aspects >> at each layer: >>> * link layer - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. Ethernet >>> layer?" -> example: Leverage ITU-T Y.1731 >>> * underlay - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. IP layer?" >>> -> example: Leverage OWAMP/TWAMP >>> * overlay - Example "how well is the SF connected at e.g. NSH layer?" >>> * service layer - Example "how well does the SF meet the criteria of an SLA?" >>> So e.g. 3.1.2 and 3.2.2 could explicitly expand on these aspects and state that >> apart from connectivity level measures (loss, throughput), service level criteria, >> typically defined as part of an SLA, are included in SFC performance >> characterization. IMHO this is a better approach, than either say "SF availability >> is a hard problem" (which is what Nagendra says in the above statement - and >> which is of course true) or just define the service aspects as out of scope for SFC >> OAM ("how clean are the clothes when returned from the laundry?"). >>> >>> My 2cents.. >>> >>> Cheers, Frank >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Joel M. Halpern >>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2020 20:17 >>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar >>>> Nainar >>>> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>> >>>> So the question now is whether the text Murray suggested suffices for >>>> you? (We are still waiting to hear from Alvaro.) >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 5/20/2020 1:41 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>>>> Thanks Joel. Per what I mentioned below, let's be clear that SF >>>>> performance is >>>> out of scope for the doc. >>>>> And I think this was Alvaro's point as well. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Frank >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2020 19:21 >>>>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Nagendra Kumar >>>>>> Nainar >>>>>> (naikumar) ; tsv-art@ietf.org >>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>>>> >>>>>> Frank, regarding your comment about SF performance, I thought the >>>>>> document was pretty clear that we consider that out of scope (c.f. >>>>>> the discussions with the various ADs.) >>>>>> >>>>>> If you can see a place to add text, please propose text. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/2020 1:10 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Nagendra, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the detailed reply. Please see inline (..FB). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) >>>>>>>> Sent: Samstag, 16. Mai 2020 16:16 >>>>>>>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; >>>>>>>> tsv-art@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework.all@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Tsvart telechat review of >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Frank, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for the review. Please see inline for the response.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reviewer: Frank Brockners >>>>>>>> Review result: Ready with Nits >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport >>>>>>>> area review >>>>>> team's >>>>>>>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These >>>>>>>> comments were >>>>>> written >>>>>>>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>> document's >>>>>>>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised >>>>>>>> and also to the IETF >>>>>>>> discussion list for information. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors >>>>>>>> should consider >>>> this >>>>>>>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always >> CC >>>>>>>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This document provides a reference framework for OAM for SFC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Comments: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.1.1 SF availability: The text makes explicit >>>>>>>> reference to >>>> multiple >>>>>>>> instances of a SF. Consequently, it should be defined how >>>>>>>> availability of a >>>>>> SF >>>>>>>> is computed/determined in case multiple instances are deployed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is already clarified in the section as below: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "For cases where >>>>>>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>>>>>> purpose of load sharing, SF availability can be performed by checking >>>>>>>> the availability of any one of those instances, or the availability >>>>>>>> check may be targeted at a specific instance." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This further >>>>>>>> leads to the question, whether availability is always a "binary" state >>>>>>>> (available / not-available), or could a SF be e.g. 99% available? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The availability is measured as binary state. I am not >>>>>>>> sure what is 99% available. If it means getting 99 responses for >>>>>>>> 100 probes sent, I think it falls under packet loss category >>>>>>>> which in turn is >>>>>> performance measurement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Thanks. Though I'm still not entirely following. If >>>>>>> availability is binary and >>>>>> I put the statements above together, what would be the availability >>>>>> of the following setup: There is an SF that is made up of 100 >>>>>> instances. 99 of these instances are powered down entirely. And the >>>>>> 1 instance that is "up" is alternating between servicing requests >>>>>> for 10min followed by not servicing requests for 10min. Would the >>>>>> SF be >>>> considered "available"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.1.2 >>>>>>>> SF performance: What is the impact of a "multiple instance >>>>>>>> SF deployment" on SF >>>>>>>> performance measurement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we covered this in SF availability but not here. >>>>>>>> Does the below updated text look better? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>>>>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>>>>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>>>>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the >> respective >>>>>>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>>>>>> while the former does not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> On the one hand, the performance of any specific SF can be quantified >>>>>>>> by measuring the loss and delay metrics of the traffic from SFF to >>>>>>>> the respective SF, while on the other hand, the performance can be >>>>>>>> measured by leveraging the loss and delay metrics from the >> respective >>>>>>>> SFs. The latter requires SF involvement to perform the measurement >>>>>>>> while the former does not. For cases where >>>>>>>> multiple instances of an SF are used to realize a given SF for the >>>>>>>> purpose of load sharing, SF performance can be quantified by >> measuring >>>>>>>> the metrics for any one instance of SF or by measuring the metrics >> for >>>>>>>> a specific instance. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The section only talks about loss and delay as >>>>>>>> performance criteria. It would be good to state that other >>>>>>>> performance criteria >>>>>>>> (e.g. specific to the SF, throughput, etc.) exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can add the below to Section 3.1.2: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> "The metrics measured to quantify the performance of the SF >>>>>>>> component is not just limited to loss and delay. Other metrics >>>>>>>> such as throughout also exist and the choice of metrics for >>>>>>>> performance measurement is outside the scope of this document." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.2.1 SFC >>>>>>>> availability: The current definition is very focused on connectivity >>>>>>>> verification, i.e. it tries to answer the question: "Does my SFC >> transport >>>>>>>> packets?". IMHO we should also ask the question "Does my >>>>>>>> SFC process >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> packets correctly?" - because if packets are not processed per the >> SFC >>>>>>>> definition, we might not call the SFC available. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think this is already handled by SF availability. >>>>>>>> The end-to-end SFC availability is verified by steering the OAM >>>>>>>> packet over the ordered set of SFs within the SFC. This is more >>>>>>>> like daisy chaining the availability of SFs within the SFC to >>>>>>>> determine end-to-end SFC availability. If the derived solution >>>>>>>> verifies the SF availability not just based on the uptime but >>>>>>>> based on the service treatment, it also answers the question >>>>>>>> "Does my SFC process the packets >>>>>> correctly". Let us know if there is any further clarity required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While 3.2.2 states that "any >>>>>>>> SFC-aware network device should have the ability to make >> performance >>>>>>>> measurements" a similar statement isn't found in 3.2.1. >>>>>>>> IMHO the ability >>>>>> for >>>>>>>> availability checks is probably a prerequisite for >>>>>>>> performance >>>>>> measurement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The ability to perform end-to-end or partial SFC >>>>>>>> availability verification is already mentioned in section 3.2.1 as below: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> " In order to perform service connectivity verification of an SFC/SFP, >>>>>>>> the OAM functions could be initiated from any SFC-aware network >>>>>>>> devices of an SFC-enabled domain for end-to-end paths, or partial >>>>>>>> paths terminating on a specific SF, within the SFC/SFP" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please let us know if you have any suggestion to improve if there >>>>>>>> is a lack of clarity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.2.2 SFC performance measurement: The section >>>>>>>> only mentions the need >>>>>>>> for performance measurement. It misses the definition of >>>>>>>> what SFC performance >>>>>>>> measurement is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Thanks for the suggested updates, which would definitively >>>>>>> improve the >>>>>> text. One problem about SFC performance remains though IMHO. >>>>>>> All the text so far is focused on the connectivity within a SFC - >>>>>>> not the service >>>>>> itself. I.e. If you'd consider a "laundry service" - we focus a lot >>>>>> on how long it takes to get the clothes shipped to and from the >>>>>> washing machine, but we don't focus on how well the washing machine >>>> washes the clothes. >>>>>>> IMHO we should either expand on the performance of the SFC and SF >>>>>>> wrt/ the >>>>>> service (especially given that you define a service layer in >>>>>> section >>>>>> 2) - or clearly state that the framework would just focus on >>>>>> connectivity >>>> between SFs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.3. Classifier component: The section mentions the >>>>>>>> need for the ability to perform performance measurement of >>>>>>>> the >>>> classifier >>>>>>>> component. What is performance measurement of the classifier? >>>>>>>> What >>>>>> does >>>>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component comprise? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can add the below text: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device should have the ability to perform >>>>>>>> performance measurement of the classifier component for each SFC. >>>>>>>> The performance can be quantified by measuring the >>>>>>>> performance metrics of the >>>>>>>> traffic from the classifier for each SFC/SFP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 3.4. / >>>>>>>> 3.5. Availability/PM of the underlay and overlay network: >>>>>>>> It would be good >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> add a sentence that states that the mechanisms for >>>>>>>> availability/PM which >>>>>> are >>>>>>>> offered by the technologies used by the overlay/underlay >>>>>>>> are used, rather than >>>>>>>> new methods specifically for SFC would be defined. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, that makes sense. Please check the below text: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>>>>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay >> network. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> Any SFC-aware network device may have the ability to perform >>>>>>>> availability check or performance measurement of the overlay >> network. >>>>>> Any >>>>>>>> existing OAM tools and techniques can be leveraged for this purpose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 4. SFC OAM >>>>>>>> Functions: It would be good, if examples in section 4 >>>>>>>> could also include >>>>>> more >>>>>>>> "recent" methods such as OWAMP/TWAMP (RFC4656, RFC 5357). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>>>>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>>>>>> SFF. As SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>>>>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>>>>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, >>>>>>>> GPS, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> Delay within an SFC could be measured based on the time it takes for >>>>>>>> a packet to traverse the SFC from the ingress SFC node to the egress >>>>>>>> SFF. Measurement protocols such as One-way Active Measurement >>>>>>>> Protocol (OWAMP) [RFC4656], Two-way Active Measurement >> Protocol >>>>>>>> (TWAMP) [RFC5357] can be used to measure the characteristics. As >>>>>>>> SFCs are unidirectional in nature, measurement of one-way >>>>>>>> delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, >>>>>>>> time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as >>>>>>>> NTP, Precision Time Protocol (PTP), >>>>>>>> GPS, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 4.4. >>>>>>>> Performance Measurement: Focus is entirely on the PM of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>> connectivity, >>>>>>>> rather than on the SF. How about covering PM for the SF as well? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not sure I understand what is missing. Do you >>>>>>>> have any suggestion for the text improvement?. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: See above. This would be about adding a capability to >>>>>>> assess how well >>>>>> the washing machine washes my laundry. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 5.1 >>>>>>>> OAM Tool Gap Analysis: >>>>>>>> - Not sure what "NVo3 OAM" refers to. Could that be >>>>>>>> explained below the table >>>>>>>> and in section 1.2.1? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Combining this with other below queries as they >>>>>>>> appears to be related. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - E-OAM needs to be detailed. Is seems that CFM >>>>>>>> (802.1ag) and not 802.3ah is refered to here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Per my understanding, 802.ah is 1-hop while 802.3ag >>>>>>>> can be more than 1 hop and both uses Ethernet frames. So I think >>>>>>>> both are >>>>>> applicable here. >>>>>>>> My response regarding E-OAM details in this section is combined below. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Maybe I missed it - but I don't see text that refers to CFM >>>>>>> or EFM >>>> OAM. >>>>>> Where is this covered? IMHO we would need references to IEEE >>>>>> standards to avoid confusion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - "Trace" in the "Trace" column >>>>>>>> need to be extended on. Is this traceroute? Paris-Traceroute? >>>>>>>> IOAM- Loopback? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IPPM needs to be detailed, because IPPM is not a tool as >>>>>>>> such but an IETF WG. >>>>>>>> Does this refer to OWAMP/TWAMP/etc. as defined by IPPM? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Combining the above queries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>>>>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>>>>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>>>>>> are in existence to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>>>>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools support different >>>>>>>> network types like IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. There is also an effort to >>>>>>>> extend the tool set to provide connectivity and continuity checks >>>>>>>> within overlay networks. BFD is another tool which helps in >>>>>>>> detecting data forwarding failures. Table 3 below is not >>>>>>>> exhaustive >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> There are various OAM tool sets available to perform OAM functions >>>>>>>> within various layers. These OAM functions may be used to validate >>>>>>>> some of the underlay and overlay networks. Tools like ping and trace >>>>>>>> are used to perform connectivity check and tracing of >>>>>>>> intermediate hops in a network. These tools are already available for >>>>>>>> different types of networks such as IP, MPLS, TRILL, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> E-OAM offers OAM mechanisms such as an Ethernet continuity check >>>>>>>> for Ethernet links. There is an effort around NVO3 OAM to provide >>>>>>>> connectivity and continuity checks for networks that use NVO3. >>>>>>>> BFD is used for the detection of data plane forwarding failures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Check whether NVO3 WG will indeed deliver a solution and >>>>>>> "NVO3 >>>> OAM" >>>>>> indeed existis. If in doubt, it might be better to avoid forward >>>>>> looking references. Per my note above, it would be good to >>>>>> explicitly refer to IEEE standards as opposed to introducing a new term like >> "E-OAM". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The IPPM framework [RFC 2330] offers tools such as OWAMP >>>>>>>> [RFC4656] and TWAMP [RFC5357] (collectively referred as IPPM in >>>>>>>> this section) to measure various performance metrics. MPLS Packet >>>>>>>> Loss Measurement >>>>>>>> (LM) and Packet Delay Measurement (DM) (collectively referred as >>>>>>>> MPLS_PM in this section) [RFC6374] offers the ability to measure >>>>>> performance metrics in MPLS network. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Table 3 below is not exhaustive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 6.4.3 IOAM: >>>>>>>> - The section states that IOAM "may be used to perform >>>>>>>> various SFC >>>> OAM >>>>>>>> functions as well". It would be good to expand on this statement: >> E.g. >>>>>> IOAM >>>>>>>> Trace-Option Type could be leveraged for SFC tracing. IOAM >>>>>>>> Direct-Export Option >>>>>>>> Type could be leveraged. - How would we deal with the IOAM >>>>>>>> Active >>>> Flag >>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) when used with SFC OAM? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The intention of the section is to highlight the >>>>>>>> applicability of different OAM toolsets for OAM functions at >>>>>>>> service layer. I am not sure if we really should try explaining >>>>>>>> all the possible options within each tool. But I agree that it is >>>>>>>> worth clarifying the availability of IOAM options for tracing. >>>>>>>> think we can clarify that different IOAM Option-Types are >>>>>>>> available for OAM functions >>>>>> such as SFC tracing. Can you check if the below looks ok? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>>>>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>>>>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>>>>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>>>>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), it may be >>>>>>>> used to perform various SFC OAM functions as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> [I-D.ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh] defines how In-Situ OAM data fields are >>>>>>>> transported using NSH header. [I-D.ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit] >>>>>>>> defines a mechanism to perform proof of transit to securely verify if >>>>>>>> a packet traversed the relevant SFP or SFC. While the mechanism is >>>>>>>> defined inband (i.e., it will be included in data packets), >>>>>>>> IOAM Option- >>>> Types >>>>>>>> such as IOAM Trace Option-Types can also be used to perform >>>>>>>> other SFC OAM function >>>>>>>> such as SFC tracing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - The text states >>>>>>>> "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set": Why would IOAM >>>>>>>> be used with >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> overflow bit set for SFC OAM? For details on IOAM's O-bit, >>>>>>>> see section >>>>>> 4.4.1 in >>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The O bit referred here is not the O bit in IOAM but >>>>>>>> the one in NSH/Overlay header. To avoid any confusion, this can >>>>>>>> be updated as >>>>>> below: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability >>>>>>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit in the overlay header set, >>>>>>>> to perform SF availability >>>>>>>> and SFC availability or performance measurement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... FB: Ah, ok. Given that this section is about IOAM and not NSH, >>>>>>> I'd rather >>>>>> explicitly refer to NSH here. E.g. If SFC is realized using NSH, >>>>>> then the O-bit in the NSH header could be used to indicated OAM traffic. >>>>>> You could refer to >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-ioam-nsh-03#section-4.2 >> explicitly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Section 6.4.4 SFC >>>>>>>> Traceroute: - This section refers to an expired draft >>>>>>>> (even calling out >>>> the >>>>>>>> fact that the draft has exipred), but also mentions that functionality >> is >>>>>>>> available and implemented in OpenDaylight. Consider >>>>>>>> removing the references to >>>>>>>> the expired draft and rather add references to >>>>>>>> OpenDaylight documents. - IOAM >>>>>>>> Loopback (see draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-01) could apply >>>>>>>> SFC Traceroute as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok. Let me check if I can find some reference for ODL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Detailed set of nits that I encountered while reading >>>>>>>> through the document ([x] >>>>>>>> references line number x) – hope that they are helpful in >>>>>>>> further improving >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> doc: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes of course (. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [global] s/an SF/a SF/ -- and similarly SFC/SFF >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Other RFCs uses "an SF/SFF". So the draft is updated >>>>>>>> accordingly. If your suggestion is to substitute "a SF" to "an >>>>>>>> SF", it is done >>>> (. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [176] "OAM Controller" not defined >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can change it as below: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OLD: >>>>>>>> OAM controllers are assumed to be within the same administrative >>>>>>>> domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NEW: >>>>>>>> OAM controllers are SFC-aware network devices that are capable of >>>>>>>> generating OAM packets. They are assumed to be within the same >>>>>>>> administrative domain as the target SFC enabled domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [202] Why just Virtual Machines and no containers? Suggest >>>>>>>> to make >>>>>> things >>>>>>>> generic and talk about virtual and physical entities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We changed this as virtual entities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This comment applies throughout the document. >>>>>>>> [216] Ethernet OAM: Add reference. Do you refer to >>>>>>>> physical layer Ethernet OAM >>>>>>>> (802.3ah) or CFM (802.1ag)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The response was provided in the above comment section. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [243] s/uses the overlay network/uses the overlay >>>>>>>> network layer/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [246] Could we add a few examples of "various overlay network >>>>>>>> technologies"? For the underlay network layer several >>>>>>>> examples are >>>> listed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [248] What does "mostly transparent" mean? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The data plane elements connecting the overlay layer >>>>>>>> nodes may not always process the overlay header. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: How about we explain this in the document? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [254] What does "tight coupling" >>>>>>>> between the link layer and the physical technology mean? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not sure I understand the nit here. Do you see any >>>>>>>> difficulty in parsing the sentence? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Not sure what "tight coupling" means here. Could you >>>>>>> clarify what is >>>>>> "tight coupling" vs. "not tight coupling"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [255] Suggest to avoid >>>>>>>> terms like "popular" - popularity can change, standards >>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok. This is changed as "Ethernet is one such choice..." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [256] Acronyms >>>>>>>> "POS" and "DWDM" are not defined >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Added. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [274] Link start/end-points don't seem to >>>>>>>> always align with the underlay network in the diagram >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fixed it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [287] s/may comprise >>>>>>>> of/may consist of/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We fixed it as "may comprise".. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [288] s/but not shown/but is not shown/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We fixed this as "intermediate nodes not shown...: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [307] >>>>>>>> s/devices/device/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [308] What is a "controller"? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We discussed this in the above comment section. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [314] s/includes/include/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [319] >>>>>>>> Add hSFC to list of acronyms in section 1.2.1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is expanded in the respective section. We added >>>>>>>> it in the acronym section as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [320] Add IBN to list of acronyms >>>>>>>> in section 1.2.1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok, Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [325] s/includes/include/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> [359] The function/term "controller" >>>>>>>> requires definition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done, as mentioned in the above comment section. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [383] s/?./?/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [398] s/get the got/got/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [461] >>>>>>>> s/devices/device/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [469] Does it have to be equal cost multipath at the service >>>>>>>> layer, or could unequal cost multipath also be an option >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> load- >>>>>> balancing? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I didn’t see any discussion specific to ECMP/UCMP in >>>>>>>> the architecture RFC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Hmm. I did not see that RFC7665 is only about equal cost multipath. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [521] Not sure whether the overlay network establishes the >>>>>>>> service >>>> plane. >>>>>> Isn't >>>>>>>> it that the overlay network establishes connectivity for the SFC- >> related >>>>>>>> functions in the service plane? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The service layer is established over the overlay >>>>>>>> network layer. I am not sure if it is right to say overlay >>>>>>>> network provides connectivity for service layer (. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Overlay network is one component of the service layer, >>>>>>> isn't it. So it is >>>>>> required but not sufficient. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [531] s/components/component/ [545] remove >>>>>>>> "underlay" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [595] s/devices/device/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [600] s/action/an action/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [601] Expand on >>>>>>>> "TTL or other means" (TTL also needs to be added to >>>>>>>> acronyms in 1.2.1). Is >>>>>> this >>>>>>>> specific to NSH? Or specific to IPv4? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TTL is listed as well-known abbrev in https://www.rfc- >>>>>>>> editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt and so we left it as it is. >>>>>>>> TTL in this document refers to NSH TTL field. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: Let's ensure we refer to NSH TTL in this case. Given that >>>>>>> SFC can be done >>>>>> with other means than NSH, implicit reference to NSH might be a problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [630] Mention that for "approximation of >>>>>>>> packet loss for a given SFC can be derived" to be >>>>>>>> applicable, SFC OAM >>>>>> packets >>>>>>>> would need to be forwarded the same as live user traffic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As it is intending to derive the approximate loss >>>>>>>> value, I am not sure if we need this additional consideration >>>>>>>> that the OAM packet would need to follow the live user traffic. >>>>>>>> Let me know if you think >>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...FB: IMHO we should - given that it is one potential complication. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [636] Is uppercase >>>>>>>> "MUST" applicable to an informational document? Especially given >> that >>>>>>>> RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [666] Add MPLS, TRILL to >>>>>>>> acronyms in 1.2.1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok. Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [678] s/exhaustive/exhaustive./ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [720] Is uppercase "SHOULD" applicable to an informational document? >>>>>>>> Especially given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly >>>>>>>> referenced by the >>>>>> draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [722] Is uppercase "MAY" applicable to an informational document? >>>>>> Especially >>>>>>>> given that RFC2119/RFC8174 is explicitly referenced by the draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on various reviewer comments, we removed the use >>>>>>>> of any normative statement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [754] >>>>>>>> s/packet/packets/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [755] s/to next node/to the next node/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [771] How does this >>>>>>>> requirement align with the earlier paragraph, e.g. in case >>>>>>>> a node sends an ICMP >>>>>>>> reply? It would probably make sense to scope the statement to e.g. >>>> NSH. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As mentioned in the statement, the node that initiates >>>>>>>> the OAM packet must set the marker and so this statement is >>>>>>>> applicable for the initiating node. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [806] >>>>>>>> s/function/functions/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [809] s/from relevant node/from the relevant node/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [810] >>>>>>>> s/generate ICMP/generate an ICMP/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [812] s/from last/from the last/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [830] >>>>>>>> s/perform continuity/perform the continuity/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [834] s/with relevant/with the >>>>>>>> relevant >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [835] s/perform partial SFC availability./perform a partial SFC >>>>>>>> availability check./ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [851] For "In-Situ OAM data fields" add a normative >>>>>>>> reference to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [905] Add "CLI" to section 1.2.1 >>>>>>>> acronyms >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [920] Add a reference for NETCONF ->RFC6241 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Done >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Nagendra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks again for considering the comments in great detail. Much >>>> appreciated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Frank >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> From nobody Fri May 22 16:19:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EBC3A0E08; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhaYPPm6o9TH; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A3F93A0E07; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 04MNIQgP003430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 22 May 2020 19:18:30 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 16:18:26 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , "sfc@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200522231826.GO58497@kduck.mit.edu> References: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:18:41 -0000 Hi Nagendra, On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 01:40:13PM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for more response. > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Section 2 > > I'm not sure that I understand why a node in the underlay network (the > "VM2" one) doesn't line up with a node in the link layer, in Figure 1. > > Am I assuming right that the question is about the misalignment between the nodes on Link layer and underlay layer?. If so, it was a typo and we fixed it. If I misunderstood the question, please let me know. Yes, that was the question, and thanks for the fix! > Section 3 > > classifiers, controllers, other service nodes). Testing an SF > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > > nit(?) perhaps "may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to > the SF", to avoid questions about what the "not" binds to. > > Yes. Your suggested text seems to make it easy to parse the statement. Please check the below text: > > OLD: > Testing an SF > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > the SF is providing its intended service. > > NEW: > Testing an SF > may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to the SF > such as checking if the SF is providing its intended service. > > 3. Classifier component: OAM functions applicable at this component > includes testing the validity of the classification rules and > detecting any incoherence among the rules installed in different > classifiers. > > It seems important to include both positive and negative tests of > classification functionality (i.e., that traffic that should not match > in fact does not match). Section 3.3 might be a good place to mention > this. > > The below text in Section 3.3 is intended to cover such misclassification: > > " The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > relevant SFC." > > If the above is not clear, we can update the same as: > > NEW: > The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > relevant SFC and detect any misclassification. I'd suggest making the update. The original is probably clear to most people, but maybe not to everyone. > Section 3.1.1 > > service function is available?. On one end of the spectrum, one > might argue that an SF is sufficiently available if the service node > (physical or virtual) hosting the SF is available and is functional. > On the other end of the spectrum, one might argue that the SF's > availability can only be concluded if the packet, after passing > > I agree with the other reviewers that the first "end" of the spectrum > seems surprising. > > firewall). The cost of this approach is that the OAM mechanism for > some SF will need to be continuously modified in order to "keep up" > with new functionality being introduced: lack of extendibility. > > nit: the grammar doesn't seem right around "lack of extendibility" > (also, is "extendibility" preferred or "extensibility"?). > > We have this changed to extensibility. > > The SF availability can be performed using a generalized approach > (i.e., an adequate granularity to provide a basic SF service). More > > nit: I think it's an availability *check* that can be performed. > > Good catch (. Fixed it. > > Section 3.2.2 > > Mandating the ability to measure every arbitrary segment of SFs within > an SFC seems like it might be over-constraining. > > This is not a normative statement but intended to detect and isolate performance issue within the SFC. > > Section 4 > > to perform OAM functionality at different layers. In order to apply > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > multiple SFCs. > > I don't understand what "operate a single SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs" > means. > > We got similar comments from other reviewers highlighting the ambiguity. We changed it as below: > > OLD: > In order to apply > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > multiple SFCs. > > NEW: > In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced > to operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in multiple SFCs. I think I'm failing to see the difference, unfortunately. > Section 4.1 > > o Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption. > > nit: this wording doesn't really make sense. Do we want to verify the > absence of such things, or that it is within configured tolerances, or > something else? Just noting any occurrences and verifying that the > noted occurrences are as noted doesn't seem useful... > > We changed this as "detect" instead of "verify". > > o Verify the policy of an SFC or SF. > > nit: similarly, is this to verify the configuration, or to verify that > operation matches the expected configuration? > > This section is about connectivity function and so it is intended to verify the operation based on the configuration. Perhaps "verify that an SFC or SF is applying the expected policy"? > Section 4.2 > > Continuity is a model where OAM messages are sent periodically to > validate or verify the reachability to a given SF within an SFC or > > nit: while it's "connectivity to", I think it's "reachability of". > > Changed it. > > o Notifying the detected failures to other OAM functions or > applications to take appropriate action. > > nit: the subject of a notification is the entity receiving notification, > not the content of the notification. So "notifying other OAM functions > or applications of the detected failures so they can take appropriate > action", or "Sending notifications of the detected failures to other > [...]". > > The former one looks more appropriate. > > Section 4.4 > > delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, > time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, > GPS, etc. > > I think (informational) references are in order for these. (PTP is not > listed as "well-known" at > https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt , though the > other two are.) > > Based on my understanding on the above cited document, I expanded PTP and left the other two as it is. Let me know if the other two should be expanded. The other two don't need to be expanded. In addition to expanding PTP, I was wondering whether to reference the RFCs for each protocol mentioned. Perhaps it is not worth the extra effort at this time. > One-way delay variation [RFC3393] could also be calculated by sending > OAM packets and measuring the jitter between the packets passing > through an SFC. > > Looking at jitter between (measurement) packets to ascertain delay > variation seems to require foreknowledge of the (e.g., periodic) pacing > of the initial packet transmission. If, on the other hand, the idea is > to look at the jitter across the measured delay of each packet, then > that works fine (but that's not what the current text says). > > Agreed. The measurement may need time synchronization and additional negotiation such as probe pace etc. But I think that this should be clarified in the solution documents. I agree that the details should be in other documents. Would you be willing to have this text be "measuring packet jitter for traffic passing through an SFC"? > o Ability to measure the packet loss [RFC7680] within an SF or an > SFP bound to a given SFC. > > nit(?): packet loss "within an SF" (as opposed to between two SFs) is > not something I would have expected to need measuring, on first thought. > Though on further reflection it is less surprising; still, I wanted to > check that this is indeed as intended. > > The ability to measure packet loss within an SFP helps detect such loss while the ability to measure packet loss within an SF helps isolate the issue. > > Section 5.2 > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > Some note about "at the time of this writing" or similar seems advised; > otherwise this statement is unlikely to age well. > > That make sense. Please find the updated text below: > > OLD: > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > NEW: > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available at the > time of this writing for the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > Section 6.2 > > An SFF may choose not to forward the OAM packet to an SF if the SF > does not support OAM or if the policy does not allow to forward OAM > packet to an SF. The SFF may choose to skip the SF, modify the > header and forward to next SFC node in the chain. It should be noted > that skipping an SF might have implication on some OAM functions > (e.g. the delay measurement may not be accurate). The method by > > This behavior was initially surprising to me, and "might have > implication on" feels like weaker text than is merited. While I can > perhaps imagine that not forwarding an OAM packet to an SF that will > choke on it instead of doing something useful, it seems like it's rather > divergent from the OAM expectations to silently bypass a given SF and is > quite likely to affect the accuracy of the resulting OAM results. > > Forwarding the OAM packet to an SF that does not support (or the policy config does not allow) OAM may result in packet drops depending on the type of SF. For example, a FW may drop the OAM packet while other SF such as pkt-capture-sf may simply pass it through. It may be difficult to differentiate if the drop is due to the lack of feature support or some forwarding/processing issue. Such inaccuracy on the OAM function is highlighted in this section. > > process OAM packets is outside the scope of this document. It could > be a configuration parameter instructed by the controller or it can > be done by dynamic negotiation between the SF and SFF. > > (Is there an existing mechanism for dynamic negotation between SF and > SFF?) > > Not that I know of. If it vitiates the section or sentence, we can remove it. No need to remove it. I'd consider adding "(the details of which are out of scope for this document)" since there's no other document to reference, but it's not necessary. > Section 6.3 > > As described in Section 4, there are different OAM functions that may > require different OAM solutions. While the presence of the OAM > marker in the overlay header (e.g., O bit in the NSH header) > indicates it as OAM packet, it is not sufficient to indicate what OAM > function the packet is intended for. The Next Protocol field in NSH > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > what toolset is used. > > Elsewhere in the document we make reference to what would be required of > a non-NSH encapsulation header; is it appropriate to also do so here? > > Does the below modified text looks better?: > > OLD: > The Next Protocol field in NSH > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > what toolset is used. > > NEW: > The Next Protocol field in NSH > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > what toolset is used. Any other overlay encapsulations used at the service > layer must have a similar way to indicate the intended OAM function. That does look better, thanks! > Section 6.4.2 > > BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF > or SFC. An initiator could generate a BFD control packet and set the > "Your Discriminator" value as last SFF in the control packet. Upon > > nit: I think this "your discriminator" would be the address or > identifier of the last SFF, not just "the last SFF" itself, right? > Or be set "to indicate" the last SFF, or similar. > (Also occurs a few sentences later.) > > Yes, good catch (. Modified the same in the relevant sentences. > > with relevant DIAG code. The TTL field in the NSH header could be > used to perform partial SFC availability. For example, the initiator > > nit: availability checks/checking > > Fixed. > > Section 6.4.4 > > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines a protocol that checks for path > liveliness and traces the service hops in any SFP. Section 3 of > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the SFC trace packet format while > Sections 4 and 5 of [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the behavior of SF > and SFF respectively. While [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] has expired, the > proposal is implemented in Open Daylight and available. > > Why is draft-penno-sfc-trace not progressing towards publication? > > I will let the authors of penno-sfc-trace to comment on the plans to move it towards publication. > > Section 7 > > I think this table really needs more lead-in to what it's communicating. > > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. With > > I don't see where that is actually indicated by the table. > > The data models required for config/orchestration of any SFC elements (such as classifier/SF/SFF) is not available today. We can clarify this in the section. Please see if the below text clarifies: > > OLD: > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. > > NEW: > While the NETCONF capabilities are readily available as depicted in Table 4, the information and data models are needed for > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. That looks better, yes. > Section 8 > > OAM information (though most usefully as summary statistics), if leaked, > could also be used by an attacker to gauge the efficacy of an ongoing > attack. > > Section 8 already defines the below: > > "The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain." > > I believe this covers the point you raised. Please let us know if it doesn’t. The text you refer to describes an appropriate mitigation to take, but does not discuss the potential consequences when the mitigation is not taken. I was hoping to see a mention of how the data could be misused if the operator failed to apply the recommended protective measures (as a way to incentive proper use of protective measures). > Any security consideration defined in [RFC7665] and [RFC8300] are > applicable for this document. > > The rest of the document implies that NSH is not mandatory, so I'd > suggest rewording this reference to clarify what from RFC 8300 is (or is > not) applicable to the whole of the document. > > While not mandatory, NSH is one of the overlay headers that could be used for encapsulating the OAM packets. So, any security considerations defined in RFC8300 is applicable when the OAM solutions are using NSH as overlay header. > > The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may > reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC > information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SF > associated within each chain and this information together with > > nit: s/the SF/the SFs/ > > Fixed. > > To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism > for: > > (1) The crucial missing word that Roman notes is indeed crucial! > (2) Can we say something stronger than "may"? > > This is changed to "should" based on the SecDir comments. > > The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer > components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent > leaking any internal service layer information outside the > administrative domain. > > "should consider" is fairly weak guidance; would "should provide" be > appropriate? > > Changed the same as "should provide". > > Also, is it worth mentioning that this filtering would include dropping > OAM-marked messages from outside the domain (at least by default)? > > I checked the section and didn’t see any specifics about incoming OAM packets. Does the below text clarify? > > OLD: > Rate-limiting may be applied at the SFF or the SF > > NEW: > Rate-limiting may be applied at the Classifier, SFF or the SF My remark was about the "filtering to prevent leaking any internal service information outside the administrative domain", so rate-limiting at the classifier would not really be the appropriate mechanism. Rather, the classifier should reject/discard incoming traffic with unexpected OAM markings. > Section 12.1 > > The only citation to RFC 8300 that appears to require a normative > reference is the bit in the security considerations that I noted was > unclear about its scope of applicability. > > We updated the document to avoid using normative statements. Let me check with my co-authors to see if we should move all the references as Informative. I think you should not blanket move all references to Informative; there can still be need for normative references even without BCP 14 keywords. > Section 12.2 > > RFC 6291 is a BCP, so we should probably cite it as such. Also, given > its content, perhaps it ought to be normative? > > Same as above. > > Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. 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15.20.3021.026; Sat, 23 May 2020 12:43:24 +0000 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Benjamin Kaduk , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWI/r7n4nGFylM8k67PRRkYrO8AqinX1yAgA13RQCAAJ3ZAA== Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:43:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3B869171-4818-4542-8E83-CA0EDFCC54CA@cisco.com> References: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200522231826.GO58497@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200522231826.GO58497@kduck.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.37.20051002 authentication-results: mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [136.56.55.90] x-ms-publictraffictype: 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Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721843A0BC0; Sat, 23 May 2020 09:24:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <159025107138.31679.6819558604128744755@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 09:24:31 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-14.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 16:24:32 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) Framework Authors : Sam K. Aldrin Carlos Pignataro Nagendra Kumar Ram Krishnan Anoop Ghanwani Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-14.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2020-05-23 Abstract: This document provides a reference framework for Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) for Service Function Chaining (SFC). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-14 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Sat, 23 May 2020 14:02:32 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 11:02:29 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , "sfc@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200523180229.GY58497@kduck.mit.edu> References: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200522231826.GO58497@kduck.mit.edu> <3B869171-4818-4542-8E83-CA0EDFCC54CA@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3B869171-4818-4542-8E83-CA0EDFCC54CA@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 18:02:46 -0000 Hi Nagendra, Generally this all looks good; just a couple final notes inline. On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 12:43:24PM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > Thank you for the response. Please see inline for 2 > > On 5/22/20, 7:18 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk" wrote: > > Hi Nagendra, > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 01:40:13PM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for more response. > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Section 2 > > > > I'm not sure that I understand why a node in the underlay network (the > > "VM2" one) doesn't line up with a node in the link layer, in Figure 1. > > > > Am I assuming right that the question is about the misalignment between the nodes on Link layer and underlay layer?. If so, it was a typo and we fixed it. If I misunderstood the question, please let me know. > > Yes, that was the question, and thanks for the fix! > > > Section 3 > > > > classifiers, controllers, other service nodes). Testing an SF > > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > > > > nit(?) perhaps "may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to > > the SF", to avoid questions about what the "not" binds to. > > > > Yes. Your suggested text seems to make it easy to parse the statement. Please check the below text: > > > > OLD: > > Testing an SF > > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > > the SF is providing its intended service. > > > > NEW: > > Testing an SF > > may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to the SF > > such as checking if the SF is providing its intended service. > > > > 3. Classifier component: OAM functions applicable at this component > > includes testing the validity of the classification rules and > > detecting any incoherence among the rules installed in different > > classifiers. > > > > It seems important to include both positive and negative tests of > > classification functionality (i.e., that traffic that should not match > > in fact does not match). Section 3.3 might be a good place to mention > > this. > > > > The below text in Section 3.3 is intended to cover such misclassification: > > > > " The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > > relevant SFC." > > > > If the above is not clear, we can update the same as: > > > > NEW: > > The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > > relevant SFC and detect any misclassification. > > I'd suggest making the update. The original is probably clear to most > people, but maybe not to everyone. > > Done. > > > Section 3.1.1 > > > > service function is available?. On one end of the spectrum, one > > might argue that an SF is sufficiently available if the service node > > (physical or virtual) hosting the SF is available and is functional. > > On the other end of the spectrum, one might argue that the SF's > > availability can only be concluded if the packet, after passing > > > > I agree with the other reviewers that the first "end" of the spectrum > > seems surprising. > > > > firewall). The cost of this approach is that the OAM mechanism for > > some SF will need to be continuously modified in order to "keep up" > > with new functionality being introduced: lack of extendibility. > > > > nit: the grammar doesn't seem right around "lack of extendibility" > > (also, is "extendibility" preferred or "extensibility"?). > > > > We have this changed to extensibility. > > > > The SF availability can be performed using a generalized approach > > (i.e., an adequate granularity to provide a basic SF service). More > > > > nit: I think it's an availability *check* that can be performed. > > > > Good catch (. Fixed it. > > > > Section 3.2.2 > > > > Mandating the ability to measure every arbitrary segment of SFs within > > an SFC seems like it might be over-constraining. > > > > This is not a normative statement but intended to detect and isolate performance issue within the SFC. > > > > Section 4 > > > > to perform OAM functionality at different layers. In order to apply > > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > > multiple SFCs. > > > > I don't understand what "operate a single SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs" > > means. > > > > We got similar comments from other reviewers highlighting the ambiguity. We changed it as below: > > > > OLD: > > In order to apply > > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > > multiple SFCs. > > > > NEW: > > In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced > > to operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in multiple SFCs. > > I think I'm failing to see the difference, unfortunately. > > It was a copy paste error. Below is the updated text: > > In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs spanning across one or more SFCs. Ah, thanks, this looks better. > > Section 4.1 > > > > o Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption. > > > > nit: this wording doesn't really make sense. Do we want to verify the > > absence of such things, or that it is within configured tolerances, or > > something else? Just noting any occurrences and verifying that the > > noted occurrences are as noted doesn't seem useful... > > > > We changed this as "detect" instead of "verify". > > > > o Verify the policy of an SFC or SF. > > > > nit: similarly, is this to verify the configuration, or to verify that > > operation matches the expected configuration? > > > > This section is about connectivity function and so it is intended to verify the operation based on the configuration. > > Perhaps "verify that an SFC or SF is applying the expected policy"? > > > Section 4.2 > > > > Continuity is a model where OAM messages are sent periodically to > > validate or verify the reachability to a given SF within an SFC or > > > > nit: while it's "connectivity to", I think it's "reachability of". > > > > Changed it. > > > > o Notifying the detected failures to other OAM functions or > > applications to take appropriate action. > > > > nit: the subject of a notification is the entity receiving notification, > > not the content of the notification. So "notifying other OAM functions > > or applications of the detected failures so they can take appropriate > > action", or "Sending notifications of the detected failures to other > > [...]". > > > > The former one looks more appropriate. > > > > Section 4.4 > > > > delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, > > time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, > > GPS, etc. > > > > I think (informational) references are in order for these. (PTP is not > > listed as "well-known" at > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt , though the > > other two are.) > > > > Based on my understanding on the above cited document, I expanded PTP and left the other two as it is. Let me know if the other two should be expanded. > > The other two don't need to be expanded. In addition to expanding PTP, I > was wondering whether to reference the RFCs for each protocol mentioned. > Perhaps it is not worth the extra effort at this time. > > I will leave it as it is now. > > > One-way delay variation [RFC3393] could also be calculated by sending > > OAM packets and measuring the jitter between the packets passing > > through an SFC. > > > > Looking at jitter between (measurement) packets to ascertain delay > > variation seems to require foreknowledge of the (e.g., periodic) pacing > > of the initial packet transmission. If, on the other hand, the idea is > > to look at the jitter across the measured delay of each packet, then > > that works fine (but that's not what the current text says). > > > > Agreed. The measurement may need time synchronization and additional negotiation such as probe pace etc. But I think that this should be clarified in the solution documents. > > I agree that the details should be in other documents. Would you be > willing to have this text be "measuring packet jitter for traffic passing > through an SFC"? > > Looks better. Done. > > > o Ability to measure the packet loss [RFC7680] within an SF or an > > SFP bound to a given SFC. > > > > nit(?): packet loss "within an SF" (as opposed to between two SFs) is > > not something I would have expected to need measuring, on first thought. > > Though on further reflection it is less surprising; still, I wanted to > > check that this is indeed as intended. > > > > The ability to measure packet loss within an SFP helps detect such loss while the ability to measure packet loss within an SF helps isolate the issue. > > > > Section 5.2 > > > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > Some note about "at the time of this writing" or similar seems advised; > > otherwise this statement is unlikely to age well. > > > > That make sense. Please find the updated text below: > > > > OLD: > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > NEW: > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available at the > > time of this writing for the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > Section 6.2 > > > > An SFF may choose not to forward the OAM packet to an SF if the SF > > does not support OAM or if the policy does not allow to forward OAM > > packet to an SF. The SFF may choose to skip the SF, modify the > > header and forward to next SFC node in the chain. It should be noted > > that skipping an SF might have implication on some OAM functions > > (e.g. the delay measurement may not be accurate). The method by > > > > This behavior was initially surprising to me, and "might have > > implication on" feels like weaker text than is merited. While I can > > perhaps imagine that not forwarding an OAM packet to an SF that will > > choke on it instead of doing something useful, it seems like it's rather > > divergent from the OAM expectations to silently bypass a given SF and is > > quite likely to affect the accuracy of the resulting OAM results. > > > > Forwarding the OAM packet to an SF that does not support (or the policy config does not allow) OAM may result in packet drops depending on the type of SF. For example, a FW may drop the OAM packet while other SF such as pkt-capture-sf may simply pass it through. It may be difficult to differentiate if the drop is due to the lack of feature support or some forwarding/processing issue. Such inaccuracy on the OAM function is highlighted in this section. > > > > process OAM packets is outside the scope of this document. It could > > be a configuration parameter instructed by the controller or it can > > be done by dynamic negotiation between the SF and SFF. > > > > (Is there an existing mechanism for dynamic negotation between SF and > > SFF?) > > > > Not that I know of. If it vitiates the section or sentence, we can remove it. > > No need to remove it. I'd consider adding "(the details of which are out > of scope for this document)" since there's no other document to reference, > but it's not necessary. > > We have this emphasized in the section already. > > > Section 6.3 > > > > As described in Section 4, there are different OAM functions that may > > require different OAM solutions. While the presence of the OAM > > marker in the overlay header (e.g., O bit in the NSH header) > > indicates it as OAM packet, it is not sufficient to indicate what OAM > > function the packet is intended for. The Next Protocol field in NSH > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > what toolset is used. > > > > Elsewhere in the document we make reference to what would be required of > > a non-NSH encapsulation header; is it appropriate to also do so here? > > > > Does the below modified text looks better?: > > > > OLD: > > The Next Protocol field in NSH > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > what toolset is used. > > > > NEW: > > The Next Protocol field in NSH > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > what toolset is used. Any other overlay encapsulations used at the service > > layer must have a similar way to indicate the intended OAM function. > > That does look better, thanks! > > > Section 6.4.2 > > > > BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF > > or SFC. An initiator could generate a BFD control packet and set the > > "Your Discriminator" value as last SFF in the control packet. Upon > > > > nit: I think this "your discriminator" would be the address or > > identifier of the last SFF, not just "the last SFF" itself, right? > > Or be set "to indicate" the last SFF, or similar. > > (Also occurs a few sentences later.) > > > > Yes, good catch (. Modified the same in the relevant sentences. > > > > with relevant DIAG code. The TTL field in the NSH header could be > > used to perform partial SFC availability. For example, the initiator > > > > nit: availability checks/checking > > > > Fixed. > > > > Section 6.4.4 > > > > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines a protocol that checks for path > > liveliness and traces the service hops in any SFP. Section 3 of > > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the SFC trace packet format while > > Sections 4 and 5 of [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the behavior of SF > > and SFF respectively. While [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] has expired, the > > proposal is implemented in Open Daylight and available. > > > > Why is draft-penno-sfc-trace not progressing towards publication? > > > > I will let the authors of penno-sfc-trace to comment on the plans to move it towards publication. > > > > Section 7 > > > > I think this table really needs more lead-in to what it's communicating. > > > > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. With > > > > I don't see where that is actually indicated by the table. > > > > The data models required for config/orchestration of any SFC elements (such as classifier/SF/SFF) is not available today. We can clarify this in the section. Please see if the below text clarifies: > > > > OLD: > > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. > > > > NEW: > > While the NETCONF capabilities are readily available as depicted in Table 4, the information and data models are needed for > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. > > That looks better, yes. > > > Section 8 > > > > OAM information (though most usefully as summary statistics), if leaked, > > could also be used by an attacker to gauge the efficacy of an ongoing > > attack. > > > > Section 8 already defines the below: > > > > "The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain." > > > > I believe this covers the point you raised. Please let us know if it doesn’t. > > The text you refer to describes an appropriate mitigation to take, but does > not discuss the potential consequences when the mitigation is not taken. I > was hoping to see a mention of how the data could be misused if the > operator failed to apply the recommended protective measures (as a way to > incentive proper use of protective measures). > > Some info around the potential misuse of such data is in the same section (as below): > > The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SFs associated within each chain and this information together with classifier rules may be used to manipulate the header of synthetic attack packets that may be used to bypass the SFC and trigger any internal attacks. > > The SF information at the SF component may be used by a malicious user to trigger Denial of Service (DoS) attack by overloading any specific SF using rogue OAM traffic. > > > Any security consideration defined in [RFC7665] and [RFC8300] are > > applicable for this document. > > > > The rest of the document implies that NSH is not mandatory, so I'd > > suggest rewording this reference to clarify what from RFC 8300 is (or is > > not) applicable to the whole of the document. > > > > While not mandatory, NSH is one of the overlay headers that could be used for encapsulating the OAM packets. So, any security considerations defined in RFC8300 is applicable when the OAM solutions are using NSH as overlay header. > > > > The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may > > reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC > > information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SF > > associated within each chain and this information together with > > > > nit: s/the SF/the SFs/ > > > > Fixed. > > > > To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism > > for: > > > > (1) The crucial missing word that Roman notes is indeed crucial! > > (2) Can we say something stronger than "may"? > > > > This is changed to "should" based on the SecDir comments. > > > > The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer > > components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent > > leaking any internal service layer information outside the > > administrative domain. > > > > "should consider" is fairly weak guidance; would "should provide" be > > appropriate? > > > > Changed the same as "should provide". > > > > Also, is it worth mentioning that this filtering would include dropping > > OAM-marked messages from outside the domain (at least by default)? > > > > I checked the section and didn’t see any specifics about incoming OAM packets. Does the below text clarify? > > > > OLD: > > Rate-limiting may be applied at the SFF or the SF > > > > NEW: > > Rate-limiting may be applied at the Classifier, SFF or the SF > > My remark was about the "filtering to prevent leaking any internal service > information outside the administrative domain", so rate-limiting at the > classifier would not really be the appropriate mechanism. Rather, the > classifier should reject/discard incoming traffic with unexpected OAM > markings. > > AFAIK, the OAM marking in the header classifies a packet as OAM probe/packet and must be rate-limited based on the above. I am not sure I understand what is unexpected OAM marking. I had in mind a scenario where a classifier might receive traffic from a given source that is allowed to supply data-plane packets to a SFC but is not allowed (by policy or contract) to send OAM probes. In that case (if such a case exists), the classifier would need to act as a firewall, dropping OAM-marked packets from that source entirely, instead of just rate-limiting them. Thanks for all the updates, Ben > > Section 12.1 > > > > The only citation to RFC 8300 that appears to require a normative > > reference is the bit in the security considerations that I noted was > > unclear about its scope of applicability. > > > > We updated the document to avoid using normative statements. Let me check with my co-authors to see if we should move all the references as Informative. > > I think you should not blanket move all references to Informative; there > can still be need for normative references even without BCP 14 keywords. > > > Section 12.2 > > > > RFC 6291 is a BCP, so we should probably cite it as such. Also, given > > its content, perhaps it ought to be normative? > > > > Same as above. > > > > Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. > > And thank you for the updates! > > -Ben > From nobody Sat May 23 19:12:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6273A1019; Sat, 23 May 2020 19:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=ZIF5PRGW; dkim=pass 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2020 23:50:01 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:49:58 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi , "sfc@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200524034958.GK58497@kduck.mit.edu> References: <158880638274.2656.5377824170907686634@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200522231826.GO58497@kduck.mit.edu> <3B869171-4818-4542-8E83-CA0EDFCC54CA@cisco.com> <20200523180229.GY58497@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 03:50:12 -0000 On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 02:11:42AM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > Thank you for the response. > > I had in mind a scenario where a classifier might receive traffic from a > given source that is allowed to supply data-plane packets to a SFC but is > not allowed (by policy or contract) to send OAM probes. In that case (if > such a case exists), the classifier would need to act as a firewall, > dropping OAM-marked packets from that source entirely, instead of just > rate-limiting them. > > Oh ok. I think this still could be achieved by configuring the classifier to rate-limit at a rate of 0 packets (. If this does not satisfy the criteria, we can consider the below: Ah, I take your point -- a rate of 0 packets would achieve the firewall effect. I just don't normally expect a rate-limiting function to use a rate of 0, so... > NEW: > The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer components should consider some form of message filtering to control OAM messages entering the administrative domain or to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain. ... I would prefer this text, which is nicely written. Thanks, Ben > Thanks, > Nagendra > > On 5/23/20, 2:03 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk" wrote: > > Hi Nagendra, > > Generally this all looks good; just a couple final notes inline. > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 12:43:24PM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > Thank you for the response. Please see inline for 2 > > > > On 5/22/20, 7:18 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk" wrote: > > > > Hi Nagendra, > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 01:40:13PM +0000, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) wrote: > > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > > > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for more response. > > > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: No Objection > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Section 2 > > > > > > I'm not sure that I understand why a node in the underlay network (the > > > "VM2" one) doesn't line up with a node in the link layer, in Figure 1. > > > > > > Am I assuming right that the question is about the misalignment between the nodes on Link layer and underlay layer?. If so, it was a typo and we fixed it. If I misunderstood the question, please let me know. > > > > Yes, that was the question, and thanks for the fix! > > > > > Section 3 > > > > > > classifiers, controllers, other service nodes). Testing an SF > > > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > > > > > > nit(?) perhaps "may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to > > > the SF", to avoid questions about what the "not" binds to. > > > > > > Yes. Your suggested text seems to make it easy to parse the statement. Please check the below text: > > > > > > OLD: > > > Testing an SF > > > may not be restricted to connectivity to the SF, but also whether > > > the SF is providing its intended service. > > > > > > NEW: > > > Testing an SF > > > may be more expansive than just checking connectivity to the SF > > > such as checking if the SF is providing its intended service. > > > > > > 3. Classifier component: OAM functions applicable at this component > > > includes testing the validity of the classification rules and > > > detecting any incoherence among the rules installed in different > > > classifiers. > > > > > > It seems important to include both positive and negative tests of > > > classification functionality (i.e., that traffic that should not match > > > in fact does not match). Section 3.3 might be a good place to mention > > > this. > > > > > > The below text in Section 3.3 is intended to cover such misclassification: > > > > > > " The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > > > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > > > relevant SFC." > > > > > > If the above is not clear, we can update the same as: > > > > > > NEW: > > > The SFC OAM must be able to validate the classification > > > rules by assessing whether a flow is appropriately mapped to the > > > relevant SFC and detect any misclassification. > > > > I'd suggest making the update. The original is probably clear to most > > people, but maybe not to everyone. > > > > Done. > > > > > Section 3.1.1 > > > > > > service function is available?. On one end of the spectrum, one > > > might argue that an SF is sufficiently available if the service node > > > (physical or virtual) hosting the SF is available and is functional. > > > On the other end of the spectrum, one might argue that the SF's > > > availability can only be concluded if the packet, after passing > > > > > > I agree with the other reviewers that the first "end" of the spectrum > > > seems surprising. > > > > > > firewall). The cost of this approach is that the OAM mechanism for > > > some SF will need to be continuously modified in order to "keep up" > > > with new functionality being introduced: lack of extendibility. > > > > > > nit: the grammar doesn't seem right around "lack of extendibility" > > > (also, is "extendibility" preferred or "extensibility"?). > > > > > > We have this changed to extensibility. > > > > > > The SF availability can be performed using a generalized approach > > > (i.e., an adequate granularity to provide a basic SF service). More > > > > > > nit: I think it's an availability *check* that can be performed. > > > > > > Good catch (. Fixed it. > > > > > > Section 3.2.2 > > > > > > Mandating the ability to measure every arbitrary segment of SFs within > > > an SFC seems like it might be over-constraining. > > > > > > This is not a normative statement but intended to detect and isolate performance issue within the SFC. > > > > > > Section 4 > > > > > > to perform OAM functionality at different layers. In order to apply > > > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > > > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > > > multiple SFCs. > > > > > > I don't understand what "operate a single SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs" > > > means. > > > > > > We got similar comments from other reviewers highlighting the ambiguity. We changed it as below: > > > > > > OLD: > > > In order to apply > > > such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > > > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in > > > multiple SFCs. > > > > > > NEW: > > > In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced > > > to operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs in an SFC and also in multiple SFCs. > > > > I think I'm failing to see the difference, unfortunately. > > > > It was a copy paste error. Below is the updated text: > > > > In order to apply such OAM functions at the service layer, they need to be enhanced to > > operate a single SF/SFF to multiple SFs/SFFs spanning across one or more SFCs. > > Ah, thanks, this looks better. > > > > Section 4.1 > > > > > > o Verify any packet re-ordering and corruption. > > > > > > nit: this wording doesn't really make sense. Do we want to verify the > > > absence of such things, or that it is within configured tolerances, or > > > something else? Just noting any occurrences and verifying that the > > > noted occurrences are as noted doesn't seem useful... > > > > > > We changed this as "detect" instead of "verify". > > > > > > o Verify the policy of an SFC or SF. > > > > > > nit: similarly, is this to verify the configuration, or to verify that > > > operation matches the expected configuration? > > > > > > This section is about connectivity function and so it is intended to verify the operation based on the configuration. > > > > Perhaps "verify that an SFC or SF is applying the expected policy"? > > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > > > Continuity is a model where OAM messages are sent periodically to > > > validate or verify the reachability to a given SF within an SFC or > > > > > > nit: while it's "connectivity to", I think it's "reachability of". > > > > > > Changed it. > > > > > > o Notifying the detected failures to other OAM functions or > > > applications to take appropriate action. > > > > > > nit: the subject of a notification is the entity receiving notification, > > > not the content of the notification. So "notifying other OAM functions > > > or applications of the detected failures so they can take appropriate > > > action", or "Sending notifications of the detected failures to other > > > [...]". > > > > > > The former one looks more appropriate. > > > > > > Section 4.4 > > > > > > delay [RFC7679] is important. In order to measure one-way delay, > > > time synchronization MUST be supported by means such as NTP, PTP, > > > GPS, etc. > > > > > > I think (informational) references are in order for these. (PTP is not > > > listed as "well-known" at > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt , though the > > > other two are.) > > > > > > Based on my understanding on the above cited document, I expanded PTP and left the other two as it is. Let me know if the other two should be expanded. > > > > The other two don't need to be expanded. In addition to expanding PTP, I > > was wondering whether to reference the RFCs for each protocol mentioned. > > Perhaps it is not worth the extra effort at this time. > > > > I will leave it as it is now. > > > > > One-way delay variation [RFC3393] could also be calculated by sending > > > OAM packets and measuring the jitter between the packets passing > > > through an SFC. > > > > > > Looking at jitter between (measurement) packets to ascertain delay > > > variation seems to require foreknowledge of the (e.g., periodic) pacing > > > of the initial packet transmission. If, on the other hand, the idea is > > > to look at the jitter across the measured delay of each packet, then > > > that works fine (but that's not what the current text says). > > > > > > Agreed. The measurement may need time synchronization and additional negotiation such as probe pace etc. But I think that this should be clarified in the solution documents. > > > > I agree that the details should be in other documents. Would you be > > willing to have this text be "measuring packet jitter for traffic passing > > through an SFC"? > > > > Looks better. Done. > > > > > o Ability to measure the packet loss [RFC7680] within an SF or an > > > SFP bound to a given SFC. > > > > > > nit(?): packet loss "within an SF" (as opposed to between two SFs) is > > > not something I would have expected to need measuring, on first thought. > > > Though on further reflection it is less surprising; still, I wanted to > > > check that this is indeed as intended. > > > > > > The ability to measure packet loss within an SFP helps detect such loss while the ability to measure packet loss within an SF helps isolate the issue. > > > > > > Section 5.2 > > > > > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > > > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > > > Some note about "at the time of this writing" or similar seems advised; > > > otherwise this statement is unlikely to age well. > > > > > > That make sense. Please find the updated text below: > > > > > > OLD: > > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available for > > > the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > > > NEW: > > > As shown in Table 3, there are no standards-based tools available at the > > > time of this writing for the verification of SFs and SFCs. > > > > > > Section 6.2 > > > > > > An SFF may choose not to forward the OAM packet to an SF if the SF > > > does not support OAM or if the policy does not allow to forward OAM > > > packet to an SF. The SFF may choose to skip the SF, modify the > > > header and forward to next SFC node in the chain. It should be noted > > > that skipping an SF might have implication on some OAM functions > > > (e.g. the delay measurement may not be accurate). The method by > > > > > > This behavior was initially surprising to me, and "might have > > > implication on" feels like weaker text than is merited. While I can > > > perhaps imagine that not forwarding an OAM packet to an SF that will > > > choke on it instead of doing something useful, it seems like it's rather > > > divergent from the OAM expectations to silently bypass a given SF and is > > > quite likely to affect the accuracy of the resulting OAM results. > > > > > > Forwarding the OAM packet to an SF that does not support (or the policy config does not allow) OAM may result in packet drops depending on the type of SF. For example, a FW may drop the OAM packet while other SF such as pkt-capture-sf may simply pass it through. It may be difficult to differentiate if the drop is due to the lack of feature support or some forwarding/processing issue. Such inaccuracy on the OAM function is highlighted in this section. > > > > > > process OAM packets is outside the scope of this document. It could > > > be a configuration parameter instructed by the controller or it can > > > be done by dynamic negotiation between the SF and SFF. > > > > > > (Is there an existing mechanism for dynamic negotation between SF and > > > SFF?) > > > > > > Not that I know of. If it vitiates the section or sentence, we can remove it. > > > > No need to remove it. I'd consider adding "(the details of which are out > > of scope for this document)" since there's no other document to reference, > > but it's not necessary. > > > > We have this emphasized in the section already. > > > > > Section 6.3 > > > > > > As described in Section 4, there are different OAM functions that may > > > require different OAM solutions. While the presence of the OAM > > > marker in the overlay header (e.g., O bit in the NSH header) > > > indicates it as OAM packet, it is not sufficient to indicate what OAM > > > function the packet is intended for. The Next Protocol field in NSH > > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > > what toolset is used. > > > > > > Elsewhere in the document we make reference to what would be required of > > > a non-NSH encapsulation header; is it appropriate to also do so here? > > > > > > Does the below modified text looks better?: > > > > > > OLD: > > > The Next Protocol field in NSH > > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > > what toolset is used. > > > > > > NEW: > > > The Next Protocol field in NSH > > > header may be used to indicate what OAM function is intended to or > > > what toolset is used. Any other overlay encapsulations used at the service > > > layer must have a similar way to indicate the intended OAM function. > > > > That does look better, thanks! > > > > > Section 6.4.2 > > > > > > BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF > > > or SFC. An initiator could generate a BFD control packet and set the > > > "Your Discriminator" value as last SFF in the control packet. Upon > > > > > > nit: I think this "your discriminator" would be the address or > > > identifier of the last SFF, not just "the last SFF" itself, right? > > > Or be set "to indicate" the last SFF, or similar. > > > (Also occurs a few sentences later.) > > > > > > Yes, good catch (. Modified the same in the relevant sentences. > > > > > > with relevant DIAG code. The TTL field in the NSH header could be > > > used to perform partial SFC availability. For example, the initiator > > > > > > nit: availability checks/checking > > > > > > Fixed. > > > > > > Section 6.4.4 > > > > > > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines a protocol that checks for path > > > liveliness and traces the service hops in any SFP. Section 3 of > > > [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the SFC trace packet format while > > > Sections 4 and 5 of [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] defines the behavior of SF > > > and SFF respectively. While [I-D.penno-sfc-trace] has expired, the > > > proposal is implemented in Open Daylight and available. > > > > > > Why is draft-penno-sfc-trace not progressing towards publication? > > > > > > I will let the authors of penno-sfc-trace to comment on the plans to move it towards publication. > > > > > > Section 7 > > > > > > I think this table really needs more lead-in to what it's communicating. > > > > > > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. With > > > > > > I don't see where that is actually indicated by the table. > > > > > > The data models required for config/orchestration of any SFC elements (such as classifier/SF/SFF) is not available today. We can clarify this in the section. Please see if the below text clarifies: > > > > > > OLD: > > > As depicted in Table 4, information and data models are needed for > > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. > > > > > > NEW: > > > While the NETCONF capabilities are readily available as depicted in Table 4, the information and data models are needed for > > > configuration, manageability and orchestration for SFC. > > > > That looks better, yes. > > > > > Section 8 > > > > > > OAM information (though most usefully as summary statistics), if leaked, > > > could also be used by an attacker to gauge the efficacy of an ongoing > > > attack. > > > > > > Section 8 already defines the below: > > > > > > "The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent leaking any internal service layer information outside the administrative domain." > > > > > > I believe this covers the point you raised. Please let us know if it doesn’t. > > > > The text you refer to describes an appropriate mitigation to take, but does > > not discuss the potential consequences when the mitigation is not taken. I > > was hoping to see a mention of how the data could be misused if the > > operator failed to apply the recommended protective measures (as a way to > > incentive proper use of protective measures). > > > > Some info around the potential misuse of such data is in the same section (as below): > > > > The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SFs associated within each chain and this information together with classifier rules may be used to manipulate the header of synthetic attack packets that may be used to bypass the SFC and trigger any internal attacks. > > > > The SF information at the SF component may be used by a malicious user to trigger Denial of Service (DoS) attack by overloading any specific SF using rogue OAM traffic. > > > > > Any security consideration defined in [RFC7665] and [RFC8300] are > > > applicable for this document. > > > > > > The rest of the document implies that NSH is not mandatory, so I'd > > > suggest rewording this reference to clarify what from RFC 8300 is (or is > > > not) applicable to the whole of the document. > > > > > > While not mandatory, NSH is one of the overlay headers that could be used for encapsulating the OAM packets. So, any security considerations defined in RFC8300 is applicable when the OAM solutions are using NSH as overlay header. > > > > > > The mapping and the rules information at the classifier component may > > > reveal the traffic rules and the traffic mapped to the SFC. The SFC > > > information collected at an SFC component may reveal the SF > > > associated within each chain and this information together with > > > > > > nit: s/the SF/the SFs/ > > > > > > Fixed. > > > > > > To address the above concerns, SFC and SF OAM may provide mechanism > > > for: > > > > > > (1) The crucial missing word that Roman notes is indeed crucial! > > > (2) Can we say something stronger than "may"? > > > > > > This is changed to "should" based on the SecDir comments. > > > > > > The documents proposing the OAM solution for any service layer > > > components should consider some form of message filtering to prevent > > > leaking any internal service layer information outside the > > > administrative domain. > > > > > > "should consider" is fairly weak guidance; would "should provide" be > > > appropriate? > > > > > > Changed the same as "should provide". > > > > > > Also, is it worth mentioning that this filtering would include dropping > > > OAM-marked messages from outside the domain (at least by default)? > > > > > > I checked the section and didn’t see any specifics about incoming OAM packets. Does the below text clarify? > > > > > > OLD: > > > Rate-limiting may be applied at the SFF or the SF > > > > > > NEW: > > > Rate-limiting may be applied at the Classifier, SFF or the SF > > > > My remark was about the "filtering to prevent leaking any internal service > > information outside the administrative domain", so rate-limiting at the > > classifier would not really be the appropriate mechanism. Rather, the > > classifier should reject/discard incoming traffic with unexpected OAM > > markings. > > > > AFAIK, the OAM marking in the header classifies a packet as OAM probe/packet and must be rate-limited based on the above. I am not sure I understand what is unexpected OAM marking. > > I had in mind a scenario where a classifier might receive traffic from a > given source that is allowed to supply data-plane packets to a SFC but is > not allowed (by policy or contract) to send OAM probes. In that case (if > such a case exists), the classifier would need to act as a firewall, > dropping OAM-marked packets from that source entirely, instead of just > rate-limiting them. > > Thanks for all the updates, > > Ben > > > > Section 12.1 > > > > > > The only citation to RFC 8300 that appears to require a normative > > > reference is the bit in the security considerations that I noted was > > > unclear about its scope of applicability. > > > > > > We updated the document to avoid using normative statements. Let me check with my co-authors to see if we should move all the references as Informative. > > > > I think you should not blanket move all references to Informative; there > > can still be need for normative references even without BCP 14 keywords. > > > > > Section 12.2 > > > > > > RFC 6291 is a BCP, so we should probably cite it as such. Also, given > > > its content, perhaps it ought to be normative? > > > > > > Same as above. > > > > > > Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. > > > > And thank you for the updates! > > > > -Ben > > > From nobody Mon May 25 08:06:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6564F3A0B79; Mon, 25 May 2020 08:06:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <159041918928.20006.14781890509547801693@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 08:06:29 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:06:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) Framework Authors : Sam K. Aldrin Carlos Pignataro Nagendra Kumar Ram Krishnan Anoop Ghanwani Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2020-05-25 Abstract: This document provides a reference framework for Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) for Service Function Chaining (SFC). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Mon, 25 May 2020 09:59:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sfc@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sfc@ietf.org Message-ID: <159042595232.5263.17396829481507051109@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 09:59:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit-05.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 16:59:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. Title : Proof of Transit Authors : Frank Brockners Shwetha Bhandari Tal Mizrahi Sashank Dara Stephen Youell Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit-05.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2020-05-25 Abstract: Several technologies such as Traffic Engineering (TE), Service Function Chaining (SFC), and policy based routing are used to steer traffic through a specific, user-defined path. This document defines mechanisms to securely prove that traffic transited said defined path. These mechanisms allow to securely verify whether, within a given path, all packets traversed all the nodes that they are supposed to visit. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Wed, 27 May 2020 14:33:27 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWLxz9VkzS8e21I0CQSc9QGdo3Vai8CVYA Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:33:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <202005211105230895521@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202005211105230895521@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: zte.com.cn; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;zte.com.cn; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:760:21aa:c87d:2340:b566:d531] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ef2d2fd2-8b33-4f53-70a2-08d8024aebce x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3715: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 04163EF38A x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F59FB42-9C2B-4CE9-AA8F-585BB8027BB9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ef2d2fd2-8b33-4f53-70a2-08d8024aebce X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 May 2020 14:33:27.9615 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: igoaGCShWumsIO/BQy4dsbYUFQr9j+4AjE40E7qGVxel3C5gvodbqNeoZGUDL39EugOgoRyeqD2DC+yn9t4Uzw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR11MB3715 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:33:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7F59FB42-9C2B-4CE9-AA8F-585BB8027BB9 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_34385469-7E21-4A60-90A5-14EC94DB7FDE" --Apple-Mail=_34385469-7E21-4A60-90A5-14EC94DB7FDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Wei, Thanks for addressing the vast majority of my comments from two full = reviews, and incorporating all my textual suggestions. Some still remain: 1. s/byte/octet/g =E2=80=94> there are still 4 instances of =E2=80=9Cbyte= =E2=80=9D. 2. Content Type 4.3. Content Type I=E2=80=99d recommend removing this one. It does not seem to be = adequately defined. 3. Note ID Figure 6: Ingress Network Node ID Why is the length fixed to 8? I understand a 32-bit number can be a most = common Node ID, but what if a 128-bit number wants to be used? I=E2=80=99d allow either of two lengths. 4. Flow ID 4.6. Flow ID Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. Akin, but not identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. This still needs to be more appropriately defined. I would replace: Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. Akin, but not identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. With at least The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label packets belonging to the same flow. Absence of this field, or a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. 5. IANA This document defines the following new values (Table 1)in the Network Service Header (NSH) metadata context Type registry: There=E2=80=99s a space missing in the first line. More importantly though, I would add two Experimentation values in Table = 1. I would also reserve the value of 0x00. 6. IANA Citation. I think the URI for IANA should be without the file part: = https://www.iana.org/assignments/nsh/#optional-variable-length-metadata-ty= pes = Lastly, here is some of the text proposed for some section descriptions: Forwarding Context The forwarding context used for segregation and forwarding scope can Take several forms depending on the network environment. For example, VXLAN/VXLAN-GPE VNID, VRF identification, and VLAN. This context header carries this network-based forwarding context. Tenant Identifier Tenant identification is often used for segregation within a multi- tenant environment. Orchestration system-generated tenant IDs are an example of such data. This context header carries both the format and value of the Tenant identifier. Content Type // Remove // I believe this needs further thinking on the namespace fo Content = Types, could even be draft-penno-sfc-appid-05 Ingress Network Node Information This context header identifies the ingress network node. Ingress Network Interface Information This context header identifies the ingress network interface. Flow ID The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label packets belonging to the same flow. Absence of this field, or a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. Thanks! Carlos. > 2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C11:05=E3=80=81wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn=E3=81=AE= =E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > Hi folks, >=20 > I just uploaded a new version of NSH metadata 2 variable-length = context headers. >=20 > The updates resolved the comments received from the mailing list. >=20 > One important technical modification is splitting of the Ingress = Network context header to two context headers (in 4.4 and 4.5) which is = proposed by Carlos, Med and Greg. >=20 > Please keep reviewing and give your comments. >=20 > = https= ://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt = >=20 > In addition, I would as the WG to consider changing the length of = Tenant Identifier context header ( in 4.2) to "var", so that TT and IANA = sub-registry are not needed. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thank you for your kind support. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, > =E9=AD=8F=E6=9C=88=E5=8D=8E Corona Wei > ZTE Corporation > M: +86 13851460269 E: wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn = >=20 > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ainternet-drafts@ietf.org = > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ai-d-announce@ietf.org = ; > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Asfc@ietf.org ; > =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 08:40 > =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[sfc] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : Network Service Header Metadata Type 2 = Variable-Length Context Headers > Authors : Yuehua (Corona) Wei > Uri Elzur > Sumandra Majee > Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt > Pages : 12 > Date : 2020-05-20 >=20 > Abstract: > This draft describes Network Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) = Type > 2 variable-length context headers that can be used within a service > function path. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --Apple-Mail=_34385469-7E21-4A60-90A5-14EC94DB7FDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = Wei,

Thanks for = addressing the vast majority of my comments from two full reviews, and = incorporating all my textual suggestions. 

Some still remain:

1.  s/byte/octet/g =E2=80=94> there are = still 4 instances of =E2=80=9Cbyte=E2=80=9D.

2. Content Type

4.3.  Content Type
I=E2=80=99d recommend removing this one. It does = not seem to be adequately defined. 

3. Note ID

                     Figure 6: Ingress Network =
Node ID
Why is the length fixed to 8? I understand a = 32-bit number can be a most common Node ID, but what if a 128-bit number = wants to be used? 

I=E2=80=99d allow either of two lengths.

4. Flow ID

4.6.  =
Flow ID

   Flow ID provides a representation of the flow.  Akin, but not
   identical to the usage described in [RFC6437].

This = still needs to be more appropriately defined. I = would replace:

   Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. =  Akin, but not
   identical to the = usage described in [RFC6437].

With at least

   The Flow ID provides a = field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label
  =  packets belonging to the same flow.  Absence of this field, = or
   a value of zero denotes that = packets have not been labeled.



5. IANA

   This document defines the following new =
values (Table 1)in the
   Network Service Header (NSH) metadata context Type registry:

There=E2=80= =99s a space missing in the first line.

More importantly though, I would add = two Experimentation values in Table 1. I would also reserve the value of = 0x00.


6. IANA Citation.

I think the URI for IANA = should be without the file part:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/nsh/#optional-variable-length-= metadata-types


Lastly, here is = some of the text proposed for some section descriptions:

Forwarding Context

   The forwarding context = used for segregation and forwarding scope can
  =  Take several forms depending on the network environment. For = example, 
   VXLAN/VXLAN-GPE VNID, VRF identification, and VLAN. This = context
  =  header carries this network-based forwarding = context.

Tenant = Identifier

  =  Tenant identification is often used for segregation within a = multi-
   tenant environment. =  Orchestration system-generated tenant IDs are an
   example of such data. This context header = carries both the format and 
  =  value of the Tenant identifier.

Content Type

// Remove
// I = believe this needs further thinking on the namespace fo Content Types, = could even be draft-penno-sfc-appid-05

Ingress Network Node = Information

   This context header identifies the ingress = network node.

Ingress Network Interface Information

  =  This context header identifies the ingress network = interface.

Flow = ID

   The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type = 2 to label
   packets belonging to the = same flow.  Absence of this field, or
  =  a value of zero denotes that packets have not been = labeled.


Thanks!

Carlos.


2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C11:0= 5=E3=80=81wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:<= /div>

Hi folks,

I just uploaded a new version of = NSH metadata 2 variable-length context headers.

The updates resolved the comments = received from the mailing list.

One important technical = modification is splitting of the Ingress Network context header to two = context headers (in 4.4 and 4.5) which is proposed by Carlos, Med = and Greg.

Please keep reviewing and give your = comments.

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03= .txt


In addition,  I would as = the  WG to consider changing the length of Tenant = Identifier context header ( in 4.2) to "var", so that TT and IANA = sub-registry are not needed.


Thank you for your kind support.


Best = Regards,
=E9=AD=8F=E6=9C=88=E5=8D=8E Corona = Wei

ZTE = Corporation

M: +86 13851460269 E: wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn


=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF= =BC=9Ainternet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ai-d-announce@ietf.org= <i-d-announce@ietf.org>;
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Asfc@ietf.org <sfc@ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F = =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 = 08:40
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 = =EF=BC=9A[sfc] = I-D Action: = draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from=  the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of = ;the Service Function Chaining WG of the&nbs= p;IETF.

        Title &nbs= p;         : Network&nbs= p;Service Header Metadata Type 2 Variable-Length&= nbsp;Context Headers
        Authors &n= bsp;       : Yuehua (Corona)&= nbsp;Wei
          &nb= sp;            = ;   Uri Elzur
          &nb= sp;            = ;   Sumandra Majee
    Filename     &= nbsp;  : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt
    Pages     &nbs= p;     : 12
    Date      = ;      : 2020-05-20

Abstract:
   This draft describes Network&n= bsp;Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) Type
   2 variable-length context head= ers that can be used within a service   function path.


The IETF datatracker status page for&n= bsp;this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/
There are also htmlized versions avail= able at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03=

A diff from the previous version = is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03

Please note that it may take a&nb= sp;couple of minutes from the time of s= ubmission
until the htmlized version and diff&nb= sp;are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by = anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc


_______________________________________________=
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

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boundary="Apple-Mail=_261BF947-2DB6-450E-8B03-4090F9B3C4D8" --Apple-Mail=_261BF947-2DB6-450E-8B03-4090F9B3C4D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 By the way, ID-Nits seems to not be flagging that RFC 7665 is a = Down-ref. Just need to be noted for later. Thanks! Carlos. > 2020/05/27 =E5=8D=88=E5=89=8D10:33=E3=80=81Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB= : >=20 > Signed PGP part > Dear Wei, >=20 > Thanks for addressing the vast majority of my comments from two full = reviews, and incorporating all my textual suggestions. >=20 > Some still remain: >=20 > 1. s/byte/octet/g =E2=80=94> there are still 4 instances of = =E2=80=9Cbyte=E2=80=9D. >=20 > 2. Content Type >=20 > 4.3. Content Type > I=E2=80=99d recommend removing this one. It does not seem to be = adequately defined. >=20 > 3. Note ID >=20 > Figure 6: Ingress Network Node ID > Why is the length fixed to 8? I understand a 32-bit number can be a = most common Node ID, but what if a 128-bit number wants to be used? >=20 > I=E2=80=99d allow either of two lengths. >=20 > 4. Flow ID >=20 > 4.6. Flow ID >=20 > Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. Akin, but not > identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. >=20 > This still needs to be more appropriately defined. I would replace: >=20 > Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. Akin, but not > identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. >=20 > With at least >=20 > The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label > packets belonging to the same flow. Absence of this field, or > a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. >=20 >=20 >=20 > 5. IANA >=20 > This document defines the following new values (Table 1)in the > Network Service Header (NSH) metadata context Type registry: >=20 > There=E2=80=99s a space missing in the first line. >=20 > More importantly though, I would add two Experimentation values in = Table 1. I would also reserve the value of 0x00. >=20 >=20 > 6. IANA Citation. >=20 > I think the URI for IANA should be without the file part: > = https://www.iana.org/assignments/nsh/#optional-variable-length-metadata-ty= pes = >=20 >=20 > Lastly, here is some of the text proposed for some section = descriptions: >=20 > Forwarding Context >=20 > The forwarding context used for segregation and forwarding scope = can > Take several forms depending on the network environment. For = example, > VXLAN/VXLAN-GPE VNID, VRF identification, and VLAN. This context > header carries this network-based forwarding context. >=20 > Tenant Identifier >=20 > Tenant identification is often used for segregation within a multi- > tenant environment. Orchestration system-generated tenant IDs are = an > example of such data. This context header carries both the format = and > value of the Tenant identifier. >=20 > Content Type >=20 > // Remove > // I believe this needs further thinking on the namespace fo Content = Types, could even be draft-penno-sfc-appid-05 >=20 > Ingress Network Node Information >=20 > This context header identifies the ingress network node. >=20 > Ingress Network Interface Information >=20 > This context header identifies the ingress network interface. >=20 > Flow ID >=20 > The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label > packets belonging to the same flow. Absence of this field, or > a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. >=20 >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Carlos. >=20 >=20 >> 2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C11:05=E3=80=81wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >>=20 >> Hi folks, >>=20 >> I just uploaded a new version of NSH metadata 2 variable-length = context headers. >>=20 >> The updates resolved the comments received from the mailing list. >>=20 >> One important technical modification is splitting of the Ingress = Network context header to two context headers (in 4.4 and 4.5) which is = proposed by Carlos, Med and Greg. >>=20 >> Please keep reviewing and give your comments. >>=20 >> = https= ://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03..txt = >>=20 >> In addition, I would as the WG to consider changing the length of = Tenant Identifier context header ( in 4.2) to "var", so that TT and IANA = sub-registry are not needed. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Thank you for your kind support. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Best Regards, >> =E9=AD=8F=E6=9C=88=E5=8D=8E Corona Wei >> ZTE Corporation >> M: +86 13851460269 E: wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn = >>=20 >> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 >> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ainternet-drafts@ietf.org = > >> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ai-d-announce@ietf.org = >; >> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Asfc@ietf.org = >; >> =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 = 08:40 >> =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[sfc] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the = IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Network Service Header Metadata Type 2 = Variable-Length Context Headers >> Authors : Yuehua (Corona) Wei >> Uri Elzur >> Sumandra Majee >> Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt >> Pages : 12 >> Date : 2020-05-20 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This draft describes Network Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) = Type >> 2 variable-length context headers that can be used within a = service >> function path. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/ = >>=20 >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_261BF947-2DB6-450E-8B03-4090F9B3C4D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 By = the way, ID-Nits seems to not be flagging that RFC 7665 is a Down-ref. = Just need to be noted for later.

Thanks!

Carlos.

2020/05/27 =E5=8D=88=E5=89=8D10:3= 3=E3=80=81Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1= =E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:

Signed PGP part
Dear Wei,

Thanks for addressing the vast majority of my comments from = two full reviews, and incorporating all my textual suggestions. 

Some = still remain:

1.=  s/byte/octet/g =E2=80=94> there are still 4 instances of = =E2=80=9Cbyte=E2=80=9D.

2. Content Type

4.3.  =
Content Type
I=E2=80=99d recommend removing this one. It does = not seem to be adequately defined. 

3. Note ID

      =
               Figure 6: Ingress Network Node ID
Why is the length fixed to 8? I understand a = 32-bit number can be a most common Node ID, but what if a 128-bit number = wants to be used? 

I=E2=80=99d allow either of two lengths.

4. Flow ID

4.6.  Flow ID

   Flow ID provides a representation of the flow.  Akin, but not
   identical to the usage described in [RFC6437].

This = still needs to be more appropriately defined. I would = replace:

   Flow ID provides a = representation of the flow.  Akin, but not
   identical to the usage described in = [RFC6437].

With at least

  =  The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to = label
   packets belonging to the same = flow.  Absence of this field, or
  =  a value of zero denotes that packets have not been = labeled.



5. IANA

   =
This document defines the following new values (Table 1)in the
   Network Service Header (NSH) metadata context Type registry:

There=E2=80= =99s a space missing in the first line.

More importantly though, I would add = two Experimentation values in Table 1. I would also reserve the value of = 0x00.


6. IANA Citation.

I think the URI for IANA = should be without the file part:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/nsh/#optional-variable-length-= metadata-types


Lastly, here is some of = the text proposed for some section descriptions:

Forwarding Context

   The forwarding context = used for segregation and forwarding scope can
  =  Take several forms depending on the network environment. For = example, 
   VXLAN/VXLAN-GPE VNID, VRF identification, and VLAN. This = context
  =  header carries this network-based forwarding = context.

Tenant = Identifier

  =  Tenant identification is often used for segregation within a = multi-
   tenant environment. =  Orchestration system-generated tenant IDs are an
   example of such data. This context header = carries both the format and 
  =  value of the Tenant identifier.

Content Type

// Remove
// I = believe this needs further thinking on the namespace fo Content Types, = could even be draft-penno-sfc-appid-05

Ingress Network Node = Information

  =  This context header identifies the ingress network node.

Ingress Network = Interface Information

  =  This context header identifies the ingress network = interface.

Flow = ID

   The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type = 2 to label
   packets belonging to the = same flow.  Absence of this field, or
  =  a value of zero denotes that packets have not been = labeled.


Thanks!

Carlos.


2020/05/20= =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C11:05=E3=80=81wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:<= /div>

Hi folks,

I just uploaded a new version of = NSH metadata 2 variable-length context headers.

The updates resolved the comments = received from the mailing list.

One important technical = modification is splitting of the Ingress Network context header to two = context headers (in 4.4 and 4.5) which is proposed by Carlos, Med = and Greg.

Please keep reviewing and give your = comments.

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03= ..txt


In addition,  I would as = the  WG to consider changing the length of Tenant = Identifier context header ( in 4.2) to "var", so that TT and IANA = sub-registry are not needed.


Thank you for your kind support.


Best = Regards,
=E9=AD=8F=E6=9C=88=E5=8D=8E Corona = Wei

ZTE = Corporation

M: +86 13851460269 E: wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn


=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF= =BC=9Ainternet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Ai-d-announce@ietf.org= <i-d-announce@ietf.org>;
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Asfc@ietf.org <sfc@ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F = =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 = 08:40
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 = =EF=BC=9A[sfc] = I-D Action: = draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from=  the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of = ;the Service Function Chaining WG of the&nbs= p;IETF.

        Title &nbs= p;         : Network&nbs= p;Service Header Metadata Type 2 Variable-Length&= nbsp;Context Headers
        Authors &n= bsp;       : Yuehua (Corona)&= nbsp;Wei
          &nb= sp;            = ;   Uri Elzur
          &nb= sp;            = ;   Sumandra Majee
    Filename     &= nbsp;  : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt
    Pages     &nbs= p;     : 12
    Date      = ;      : 2020-05-20

Abstract:
   This draft describes Network&n= bsp;Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) Type
   2 variable-length context head= ers that can be used within a service   function path.


The IETF datatracker status page for&n= bsp;this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/
There are also htmlized versions avail= able at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03=

A diff from the previous version = is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03

Please note that it may take a&nb= sp;couple of minutes from the time of s= ubmission
until the htmlized version and diff&nb= sp;are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by = anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc


_______________________________________________=
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc



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Wed, 27 May 2020 15:15:11 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: Service Function Chaining IETF list , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHWNDmdtL3MiQeHbECwTFcJpgbQMw== Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159002475323.18843.9559672930298713998@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:760:21aa:c87d:2340:b566:d531] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1b471c00-68dc-4939-dd06-08d80250c030 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3732: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 04163EF38A x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F7C7593-6D77-43F5-8715-BE6DE7D4523E" --Apple-Mail=_4F7C7593-6D77-43F5-8715-BE6DE7D4523E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Greg, > We much appreciate your comments and questions. Thank you for asking and inviting commentary. Here=E2=80=99s some = thoughts: Hello, WG, Chairs, I believe fundamental concerns with this work remain unanswered =E2=80=94 = examples: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/NdxlfxBuvaFp3eU8yFuLqKvNteQ/ = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/TT3L-R05fbIGkfjr-x_oifBrhsc/ = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/sSO2BcgXereje4PxnGY9Wv_pDOs/ = And since some of those questions were asked during adoption, I=E2=80=99d = recommend at least un-adopting this document. Email threading in one-year-old and two-year-old emails is super hard to = parse and follow, so some key concerns are: 1. This document describes an OAM solution, but ignores the WG=E2=80=99s = SFC OAM framework which sits with the IESG. 2. Existing protocols can already provide solutions without the need of = inventing a new protocol on paper. See #1 above. 3. There are already documented SFC traceroute implementations but this = document has no implementation experience. See #2 above. Dear Greg, Could you please start responding to previous questions? Apologies in = advance if I missed any of your responses. > Per our analysis, existing OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping = and SFP traceroute. Which analysis? Perhaps you could share that analysis? > Consider ICMP. When encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping function = but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing tool. What exactly did you need to add to have that functionality as opposed = to your consideration of ICMP? Thanks! Carlos. > 2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C10:51=E3=80=81Greg Mirsky = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > Dear All, > this version includes a minor update to the Security Considerations = section. > We, the authors, believe that the draft is ready for the WG LC. It = defines an essential function of SFC OAM - SFP Echo request/reply. Per = our analysis, existing OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping and = SFP traceroute. Consider ICMP. When encapsulated in NSH, it supports the = ping function but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing = tool. > We much appreciate your comments and questions. >=20 > Dear Jim and Joel, > please kindly consider the WG LC for this draft. >=20 > Regards, > Greg >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt > To: Bhumip Khasnabish >, = Cui(Linda) Wang >, Greg Mirsky >, Wei Meng > >=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt > has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam > Revision: 05 > Title: Active OAM for Service Function Chains in Networks > Document date: 2020-05-20 > Group: sfc > Pages: 18 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt= = > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ = > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 = > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam = > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 = >=20 > Abstract: > A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and > Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in networks is > presented. Based on these requirements an encapsulation of active > OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defects > described. Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the definition = of > O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines how the > active OAM message identified in SFC NSH. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --Apple-Mail=_4F7C7593-6D77-43F5-8715-BE6DE7D4523E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Dear Greg,

We much appreciate your comments and = questions.

Thank = you for asking and inviting commentary. Here=E2=80=99s some = thoughts:

Hello, = WG, Chairs,

I = believe fundamental concerns with this work remain unanswered =E2=80=94 = examples:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/NdxlfxBuvaFp3eU8yFuLq= KvNteQ/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/TT3L-R05fbIGkfjr-x_oi= fBrhsc/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/sSO2BcgXereje4PxnGY9W= v_pDOs/
And since some of those questions were = asked during adoption, I=E2=80=99d recommend at least un-adopting this = document.

Email = threading in one-year-old and two-year-old emails is super hard to parse = and follow, so some key concerns are:
1. This = document describes an OAM solution, but ignores the WG=E2=80=99s SFC OAM = framework which sits with the IESG.
2. Existing = protocols can already provide solutions without the need of inventing a = new protocol on paper. See #1 above.
3. There are = already documented SFC traceroute implementations but this document has = no implementation experience. See #2 above.

Dear Greg,

Could you please start responding to = previous questions? Apologies in advance if I missed any of your = responses.

Per our analysis, existing OAM = mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping and SFP traceroute. =

Which analysis? Perhaps you could share that = analysis?

Consider ICMP. When = encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping function but, per our = analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing = tool.

What = exactly did you need to add to have that functionality as opposed to = your consideration of ICMP?

Thanks!

Carlos.



2020/05/20= =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C10:51=E3=80=81Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB= :

Dear All,
this = version includes a minor update to the Security Considerations = section.
We, the authors, believe that the draft is = ready for the WG LC. It defines an essential function of SFC OAM - SFP = Echo request/reply. Per our analysis, existing OAM mechanisms = cannot support both SFP ping and SFP traceroute. Consider ICMP. When = encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping function but, per our = analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing tool.
We = much appreciate your comments and questions.

Dear Jim and Joel,
please kindly consider the WG LC for this draft.

Regards,
Greg

---------- = Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: = Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM
Subject: New Version = Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
To: = Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.com>, Cui(Linda) Wang <lindawangjoy@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Wei Meng <meng.wei2@zte.com.cn>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
= has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:          =  draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam
Revision:       05
Title:          Active OAM for Service Function = Chains in Networks
Document date:  2020-05-20
Group:          sfc
Pages:          18
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer= -oam-05.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam= /
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-laye= r-oam
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-= oam-05

Abstract:
   A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration = and
   Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in = networks is
   presented.  Based on these requirements an = encapsulation of active
   OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize = defects
   described.  Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in = the definition of
   O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines = how the
   active OAM message identified in SFC NSH.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
sfc = mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

= --Apple-Mail=_4F7C7593-6D77-43F5-8715-BE6DE7D4523E-- --Apple-Mail=_73D83847-3F19-4030-8427-E8873FDC42F9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEbIMShIRJbeM9uJhEheClAY5mfL0FAl7Og/4ACgkQheClAY5m fL2uxw/6AnDzeX6b3W/7srIJcoSj4W8qZeFNw0gl/klOnbaIVc3gw45wskWSjmHB /RJIp02oORzYQaBhy0cOvCdNemdHC/UcejpebwSs6gpf2j4D6kUZq6xaausdd1kP /GLQ1FdP6hdEC2mair/fE06PgUXi7Jd2ocN6zCvvfGw3VAlj+8aHNXkUe1SLVOau fkZe6QzchfNmWpt/tmyx+L6aWEy912M+61+1Tm8R3ikb3piwZuwTC7kJTzCmZeB9 EcUlo5r79pxkISYka9rJksPhCFpSRPfBl/MELeKt5/PzKS5yLe9k3ms0DOWRLrMF TwO7cv/iMukVl3ozH51Xg01E8S+ZTq5N5nGziWvP7lFGbOn2xhS4Gu4BYZ0Yv2sa hL2+7SpaOyFpBVbcHi8K5B1iU+0dVaFDs2muG/4oFpe0iFhl8NaxnUE+qbXc5hD9 4xEyj1TdIrH/chnpxtcdTh79aq7Ke8oe11SoPO0o7cS80frQ6gpjIgFejNJRSxLK S51MRDn/3YaV68LocwATqSvudzxYilHpX3t1ywsCLjvaLVIF3j2s+lEHAaKxj804 A+su4Ru6w97Bj+kESucb5bGceh5sHdiReNfAGkkAa1prEExo9MbeMQFvw8m/uKe7 pmk2/HBBl1P7I9N0JBq1n1Q4cdZAGUJqlok54BKNYYZ3NeqBfI4= =QppS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_73D83847-3F19-4030-8427-E8873FDC42F9-- From nobody Wed May 27 08:36:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0553A0EEC for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h0aaFSooQQ8P for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F04F23A0ECA for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49XFL75Rgcz6GFbG for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1590593791; bh=tDwX1iXh2PuuMgW2IOTv1lH5gvRKxKWAjqWvy1Uftjo=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=T1W2HkZ32rCBHg/Po60VRpHi6sbK2B3wABTkVG1/CFN8E2lmwWotrcWJNMo95pslk 57+x1eHFZ+qdxHhA5/7o6Y/YnzioHoPoXeBHNsMxo1qAZBvIvpsx4XwRVxtt5SNQP+ tY1vXl2KAm5uyn2pzCHmYlKYpOL3MruxALUynIPA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49XFL72HqWz6G993 for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) To: "sfc@ietf.org" From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:36:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:36:34 -0000 We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security mechanisms for NSH. We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items until we can prove we can complete out commitments. Yours, Joel From nobody Wed May 27 08:39:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6403A03FF for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uajxhy4bsZxK for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ECD63A0F46 for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49XFPk05Yjz6GD7v; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:39:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1590593978; bh=pM4Obm/QmqfK80ZbJUYOHowm7guVU46v79eKmewMT9s=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nAi/i5FqVk4cubhKPIZy7/hhkhJCYAyaSYS49lYmdXyUTQ0fOzhMcDAsqcCC0vhos 7pg4qaRlA0K9Z7psj479AbczsHyCmtlPrbLdPVrfVnx2a2zNO5B6sC1hR8/57xGjsz brlHj5z+EbOUolJA2RUM0OL9+DFFCEyIzjSMr0G4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49XFPj2Tt6z6G8nc; Wed, 27 May 2020 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT) To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" References: <202005211105230895521@zte.com.cn> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <9e4f630b-c298-c9ca-883b-efe75a081e18@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:39:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:39:41 -0000 Thank you for your extensive work on this Carlos. Working group... Does anyone else have comments? This is another milestone we need to get done. Yours, Joel On 5/27/2020 10:33 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > Dear Wei, > > Thanks for addressing the vast majority of my comments from two full > reviews, and incorporating all my textual suggestions. > > Some still remain: > > 1.  s/byte/octet/g —> there are still 4 instances of “byte”. > > 2. Content Type > > 4.3. Content Type > > I’d recommend removing this one. It does not seem to be adequately defined. > > 3. Note ID > > Figure 6: Ingress Network Node ID > > Why is the length fixed to 8? I understand a 32-bit number can be a most > common Node ID, but what if a 128-bit number wants to be used? > > I’d allow either of two lengths. > > 4. Flow ID > > 4.6. Flow ID > > Flow ID provides a representation of the flow. Akin, but not > identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. > > > This still needs to be more appropriately defined. I would replace: > >    Flow ID provides a representation of the flow.  Akin, but not >    identical to the usage described in [RFC6437]. > > With at least > >    The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label >    packets belonging to the same flow.  Absence of this field, or >    a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. > > > > 5. IANA > > This document defines the following new values (Table 1)in the > Network Service Header (NSH) metadata context Type registry: > > > There’s a space missing in the first line. > > More importantly though, I would add two Experimentation values in Table > 1. I would also reserve the value of 0x00. > > > 6. IANA Citation. > > I think the URI for IANA should be without the file part: > https://www.iana.org/assignments/nsh/#optional-variable-length-metadata-types > > > Lastly, here is some of the text proposed for some section descriptions: > > Forwarding Context > >    The forwarding context used for segregation and forwarding scope can >    Take several forms depending on the network environment. For example, > VXLAN/VXLAN-GPE VNID, VRF identification, and VLAN. This context > header carries this network-based forwarding context. > > Tenant Identifier > >    Tenant identification is often used for segregation within a multi- >    tenant environment.  Orchestration system-generated tenant IDs are an >    example of such data. This context header carries both the format and >    value of the Tenant identifier. > > Content Type > > // Remove > // I believe this needs further thinking on the namespace fo Content > Types, could even be draft-penno-sfc-appid-05 > > Ingress Network Node Information > >    This context header identifies the ingress network node. > > Ingress Network Interface Information > >    This context header identifies the ingress network interface. > > Flow ID > >    The Flow ID provides a field in the NSH MD Type 2 to label >    packets belonging to the same flow.  Absence of this field, or >    a value of zero denotes that packets have not been labeled. > > > Thanks! > > Carlos. > > >> 2020/05/20 午後11:05、wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn >> のメール: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> I just uploaded a new version of NSH metadata 2 variable-length >> context headers. >> >> The updates resolved the comments received from the mailing list. >> >> One important technical modification is splitting of the Ingress >> Network context header to two context headers (in 4.4 and 4.5) which >> is proposed by Carlos, Med and Greg. >> >> Please keep reviewing and give your comments. >> >> >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03..txt >> >> >> >> In addition,  I would as the  WG to consider changing the length >> of Tenant Identifier context header ( in 4.2) to "var", so that TT and >> IANA sub-registry are not needed. >> >> >> Thank you for your kind support. >> >> >> *Best Regards,* >> *魏月华 Corona Wei* >> >> *ZTE Corporation* >> >> M: +86 13851460269 E: wei.yuehua@zte.com.cn >> >> >> 原始邮件 >> *发件人：*internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > >> *收件人：*i-d-announce@ietf.org >> >; >> *抄送人：*sfc@ietf.org > >; >> *日 期 ：*2020年05月21日 08:40 >> *主 题 ：**[sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt* >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF. >> >>         Title           : Network Service Header Metadata Type 2 Variable-Length Context Headers >>         Authors         : Yuehua (Corona) Wei >>                           Uri Elzur >>                           Sumandra Majee >>     Filename        : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03.txt >>     Pages           : 12 >>     Date            : 2020-05-20 >> >> Abstract: >>    This draft describes Network Service Header (NSH) Metadata (MD) Type >>    2 variable-length context headers that can be used within a service >>    function path. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-tlv-03 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Wed May 27 09:46:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCDB3A0F41; 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Wed, 27 May 2020 18:46:45 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1590598005; bh=9RkIUAdKcL4c2SwGCMaMKvskYtxSobB2rgAMTn0GWv8=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=U0CMQIZg2uqrJIi6iFiLpLIg5b9OT1lcBI7bjuvmsln/5rgwNMeyPsf0kEWcmBGhG CxzLSWGTiHr6pdEVHJHPVDmYL71pQimO1H4Fg6rVEBuCOugDfTQToIBITwL0Y93NGM lxvNpS/1vNYgN/9ReF8PEuxXxvgqqHb5UcZsBukDCBNIgTMl2h2wwpiOPi7zVkofAq 3qVZRgD17cJMsDWRnwg07MJAP3BLLZ4FTCWNpya7+EKZ+Od5L+fI0Wmy9Jpfb1kQEe Wedr6w0aff7wiph7KXMx4HnBKr36ZMBKWJkB1yEfOSaw0q+hnCh17WLPUQkp1zxV6z Ro4mFq/jw7KOQ== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.23]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 49XGv86SfZzDq7W; Wed, 27 May 2020 18:46:44 +0200 (CEST) From: To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" CC: "draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Thread-Index: AQHWNDyhdYdIRXesZE2p3BoAuJreA6i8IJ8A Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:46:44 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C69E4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:46:57 -0000 Hi Joel, all,=20 I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 > =C0=A0: sfc@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [sfc] SFC Security >=20 > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was > important, > and which we agreed to work on, to provide security mechanisms for > NSH. >=20 > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ >=20 > Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? >=20 > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the > chairs > note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items until we > can > prove we can complete out commitments. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Wed May 27 09:52:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A133A0F41 for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 27 May 2020 16:52:05 +0000 Received: from BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0e8:9942:9972:5590]) by BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0e8:9942:9972:5590%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3021.030; Wed, 27 May 2020 16:52:05 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Thread-Index: AQHWNDyn+XTXKyI1SUGkSTCdmMFYsqi8JdIA Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:52:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3F23E3C3-799D-4508-801C-138F8B168F45@cisco.com> References: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:760:21aa:c87d:2340:b566:d531] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9843aab2-3760-49d8-b16c-08d8025e495b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3697: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 04163EF38A x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qRM+gdPQQ4BOA4OTBsw7l2jlyq+GAt/j6XLw89Hsk0qGt1iOrP0IfsaT47ip/nbGfSBahdv25vuYt9PpEYWiJLR86bf+VbQ/sgHVjJ01kmclTIdwyCsg/84CLFWqmku8qHJecXEdDzHJ3U90L2AIAQSX5lUEok1Hj05KnHrB7POmb2FyLoNnzuJNFT+3UiT+snMpNgtCRYTjyLsRliLXGVFDV1EBBnR9pvVYOY9EIhkpUzVMcIQV6JCV3ytIqagHiP3bFF4ATo8Bwss9nwbSlzLUz88SBV1LUpt8GaoRcd8zqoV9dsl2MCA1aDMvaKRPhjbFSLYPnHqw1aIJXEpvbNSTmU+bQbHyTsjErQnLwFC+x5eIyBg5AS+Vy1bvz6dd7TfNPElnNitKKXwCOKBLhw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BN8PR11MB3635.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(376002)(6506007)(71200400001)(966005)(6916009)(478600001)(186003)(86362001)(6512007)(83380400001)(36756003)(66616009)(66556008)(99936003)(64756008)(66946007)(66476007)(15650500001)(2616005)(66446008)(76116006)(4326008)(6486002)(8676002)(5660300002)(8936002)(2906002)(33656002)(316002)(4744005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_76883E36-EA41-4E4A-90BF-5B56F629EC03"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9843aab2-3760-49d8-b16c-08d8025e495b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 May 2020 16:52:05.1723 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zhUFBpBfpqvje3dz5yFE6KGC3QnGuTcYGIW4iIglXBPqdJ1+597riCqi0EjmDwsg8VMzMAtKJsI+UD2XPJVYBg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR11MB3697 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:52:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_76883E36-EA41-4E4A-90BF-5B56F629EC03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Joel, I agree this is both important and priority work, and I believe the = document below is a great start! It=E2=80=99s great to see. One question =E2=80=94 how specifically does it relate to = draft-reddy-sfc-nsh-encrypt, with one common author? Thanks! Carlos. > 2020/05/27 =E5=8D=88=E5=89=8D11:36=E3=80=81Joel M. Halpern = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was = important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security = mechanisms for NSH. >=20 > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ >=20 > Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? >=20 > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the = chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items until = we can prove we can complete out commitments. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --Apple-Mail=_76883E36-EA41-4E4A-90BF-5B56F629EC03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEbIMShIRJbeM9uJhEheClAY5mfL0FAl7OmrQACgkQheClAY5m fL0qzg/+M7GQUfKKMHc+dvnA4RX6EV/OaQS5mW3JrEpHgbLI/bT++Snl3mnT8EvX Hrr7hEPqAnG9pVvlOFZ5LilkPPys0zAvJxq1JNXrj1WatlQfYavRUgWqud1xRTag 4L/0I807LTP2oCZGvvTcd52KTRvx6vJEW9C7OpqD+KRVW8URDnNdBV3eYNzvvtUz 4Ly9h7mR45aeUozFXOk/UBJDZHuN7bc6oPmdhew6DR9bwlB32/Cpm5fBqr+Vx7xq h2LFj5PrJTspkAZ/sVFMCyIwQtTVdC07mGQIlf6rdx61Q1Wb9UHQAcVFz9DRDSy6 73s4I+vndfGN/5r7QB4hd/MC9YZxuFnBX7lnnqej2G2gzN4xwe6kuOkJgpF5HEDe MLunOLI/vjuyZJAvXXjGOAaV0BYUi5wwtHa2Ak7Te4InlWRpwfq42AbMZLn4ySMN eeZBAjMHqSquotSYo625gnCggQFuLxl/iJiU5//CcjthSHub67wa6EYeQ1JSaEx1 zzUBESjAhq1e+CKOb0/kzxjz4BL0UGLZl4f+fz3xsFtbcinjm+glT3rIqufOyqCf 1DWi2e5SSB6BN8VJs8x5QFBeulBZ6PWGhiyG2nFIvlx7rIIFZoNAywEAa15FeV0I bP7K1rgwo8YZttPSnMmTGjPVyy0qYJ7xEm7/CMapSmai6kscG9I= =IKfj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_76883E36-EA41-4E4A-90BF-5B56F629EC03-- From nobody Thu May 28 03:03:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDF03A0D1E for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 03:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ceyPPWmcGjnl for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 03:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com [63.128.21.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F208C3A0D1A for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 03:03:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mcafee.com; s=mimecast20190606; t=1590660233; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=yqBj+VsyCZvZx3fclsFjOMRwf8W9qMGZmEl7MXCWwmg=; b=Z2Eru2uGcACXQVQdXSUSwgc3KfbQOYuXaXDGUS9Q9DU4ReeV5Wt2l3SwcgO9O/+lsczZXV KdeDFD5Z6OZu1DjyPWnFxAWOyihfanRYu5vMJ1Pq+25yXjzXGxJGRQvbZl7S+phB8ft/KS r4ezZaRqklohk1kjv8VyfOhB01z7MFE= Received: from NAM11-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam11lp2175.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.56.175]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-202-Cj0EfOa_O3K8FYiSkpG4Yw-1; Thu, 28 May 2020 06:03:51 -0400 X-MC-Unique: Cj0EfOa_O3K8FYiSkpG4Yw-1 Received: from CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:d4::12) by CY4PR1601MB1191.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:d4::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3021.23; Thu, 28 May 2020 10:03:48 +0000 Received: from CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4c91:5cab:ab79:5ec6]) by CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4c91:5cab:ab79:5ec6%10]) with mapi id 15.20.3021.029; Thu, 28 May 2020 10:03:48 +0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" CC: "draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Thread-Index: AQHWNDyhdYdIRXesZE2p3BoAuJreA6i8IJ8AgAElGQA= Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:03:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C69E4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C69E4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [49.37.202.192] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4f3ce1b8-420f-4e04-678f-08d802ee6a37 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR1601MB1191: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0417A3FFD2 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: XM8F4yTUlZFWJsYurh4aWSFCZFX4khz+aMJ+RisplyTp0D6zV27gZo7+JHhkpverx78PH1ioRtW1UGpH6Dj+tqP97MzLU2pPvnNDWsoxAPMFe2mZcDP34Z+c4kjDH82szGY+IfutZES/SKPEvGALdhFmksScA+Pt8Ne0NzNIseylOSCRBCvfpq0exp8r5DXso2t8GKw6vx79ysoiccxGKjxs9iy6K2FQrficMipO1Xqx94zo2qpvr8MVUM8JwCusKp1co8TzLMwdSnlagcG4Fdma4vnahMuP5v0jM3Qxq3A/K5KhPQT+DvhhQJA2hxXOiAU/KOe56AwQ5EjTsCjsOsrpKXGuM3FCmtCjGRbHxPnXLqFyHf8pag+bBdU4E70+k55yD6QV8LGXwr9liSqHpQ6Dp38wNC4qEyD23r3MM/NAasFX55G8zC1JjkhLKPs7hSS41rOnBgVMSRfqfqyQUAjhDi4dUkFCE8Klx9upeIs= x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(376002)(136003)(32952001)(33656002)(86362001)(8676002)(76116006)(316002)(110136005)(15650500001)(966005)(478600001)(2906002)(64756008)(66476007)(6506007)(7696005)(52536014)(8936002)(53546011)(66556008)(66946007)(66446008)(26005)(186003)(4326008)(83380400001)(5660300002)(55016002)(71200400001)(9686003)(85282002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: UhCSeVjzABncuNlWsFrjvGfpKprxL7E6n0rqr/p9lRqV2BWiIu0NmJrwRsInPPE6vjQ79WwY84oFmLFZ4iNoK/0WOyaTVGhF4oShMbJCFat8kjh1IoplEb0CNYnVjQOe89CIYvi3Y5v9vnIM797cL/DuRdmnV4QXDG7bFkHYDKSJfaKQH9MLe/g4GevPtu0jCYao+i1rAid6K9hDhhQVEykBtqRqwa/Hco3vTRRsonQBUubGDfwuSsdpegd5AVZuq8belVD3SOQtqN96U09s9mQ4lWh8yyn6r8aEse26H5sK33Q8GrxN+i0zFqSrZqE4drQKAuZzRz8H3iwqDFDkSEtP9fVBPBAlr/i52uA3L2F1JBJJqwdi/PRQ8dObEofrLdQ8o0fGwdQqovc5z13tuSWkkEZUGPI4tc1fWOSdvsGiZx7+yDjdeO8w7l2S9+urOMftXOsCfLqwPlhGREfhE7o2QYwivUfryfX8Ad4YzjU= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4f3ce1b8-420f-4e04-678f-08d802ee6a37 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 May 2020 10:03:47.9333 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xv89Eti31gPCSJLqZxUQ9ANZzHH+yd71BRK4lfvFVjXGj0m+3qQd0jMgyc9b1LB5yO41eZqgTS9iZaS3dSMXs6nWNZ1GY7pVHYpBnmT/TCwy82CCLwERVMtIzJ/Vc9wU X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR1601MB1191 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: mcafee.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:03:57 -0000 I support adoption and will contribute to progress the draft. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:17 PM > To: Joel M. Halpern ; sfc@ietf.org > Cc: draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security >=20 > CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless yo= u > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >=20 > Hi Joel, all, >=20 > I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern > > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 =C0=A0: sfc@ietf.org Objet=A0: = [sfc] SFC > > Security > > > > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was > > important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security > > mechanisms for NSH. > > > > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ > > > > Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? > > > > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the > > chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items > > until we can prove we can complete out commitments. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu May 28 07:32:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60ADA3A0F0E; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D79Gwb_VJ18v; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa33.google.com (mail-vk1-xa33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB16F3A0F0C; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa33.google.com with SMTP id m23so448847vko.2; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:32:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XJaz8NpDAl60H8ig+N/cTmlsxVnZtH7UrTmZVrSWfxE=; b=utg6pxH4VwV2ZG7toL4B83hPeAR6ML3uivIXYQuy+a22BDphPsQnpc7KNVjp2Jh59n svsggWpwa4HTsE2Ax7n3wVCj7UILd5dmwruUyem/ALK4Lghy/M9vGHWKHzmquTeY0YX5 2oO0LZZQUu1NYuPlRFmhOKaGOz4JQSBYhT8bYtvgLiWc8Cia8hsXr4qDdcmU9eR49Loy F0Iq7uhakRpUbj3Z7lfJJoMYFZH9ro0c/oL9l6fKCCeHZCfnt72eQ8rbYzr/nOKOOiB2 zBfsxpyWqjpXvM8+lReUy42UuA0J593x5Fk2QjV63Oil9tIZVoRrhnmc6pt/Pp7kV27i XJBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XJaz8NpDAl60H8ig+N/cTmlsxVnZtH7UrTmZVrSWfxE=; b=jHJFaZmJ6QRLr5rvezJ9T4zg7R6Ud5PRuh9kyd1fFB4ZMO3ulEL2ZWq5DnVaAzGiNC U6RF4nhW0TuAZp+FH7JYnyti/M/o2RF0YBMcugsfgruAHRyspdY83P8uaGJ8dZTCYc1o XXPUqTf82GO0rNn7LdvYLlU+y596N27a3ZuvHIPIGKLG5M7C1vdhfXheGC1hNPWy/cvs 0vukF6grpTRSrdEBrk6oqPD7toQ/LaHmzkyTE6b4R3oUpMybYGTTZPAhCR9mScHI/kQm Yg5Nz7bWi18wCljivQzf9sjM7rqc/iFPu4NCJHt1yTy/fDwp+lsldpa4raj0zKDMY+hw 93Cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530vGvFb7eVI20hchvJ87EEo1MWDfdnXN/pUItexlb0/k/31caF6 5nzeUykrEl8MGyPJ2ktLuCWOKh9uVklo/Wn5GI8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUm6hPGUzUINjiva7khZGm1HkeqMjdsaDlGRPPMpiC2yCZ/g1uwmG0r+BL70JaVHwj8/KsSrBn4UdYJI8XRXM= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:388f:: with SMTP id f137mr2392735vka.39.1590676344735; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C69E4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:32:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" Cc: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b0a8705a6b6329a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 14:32:28 -0000 --0000000000007b0a8705a6b6329a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have reviewed the document. I believe it is a good start and I support the adoption of the document. Yours, Daniel On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 6:04 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy < TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote: > I support adoption and will contribute to progress the draft. > > -Tiru > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:17 PM > > To: Joel M. Halpern ; sfc@ietf.org > > Cc: draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security > > > > CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless > you > > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > > Hi Joel, all, > > > > I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 =C3=80 : sfc@ietf.org Objet = : [sfc] SFC > > > Security > > > > > > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was > > > important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security > > > mechanisms for NSH. > > > > > > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ > > > > > > Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? > > > > > > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the > > > chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items > > > until we can prove we can complete out commitments. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sfc mailing list > > > sfc@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --0000000000007b0a8705a6b6329a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have reviewed the document. I believe=C2=A0it is a good = start and I support the adoption of the document.=C2=A0
Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel=C2=A0

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 6:04 AM Konda, Tirumalesw= ar Reddy <Tirumale= swarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:
I support adoption and will contribute to progres= s the draft.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> <= mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:17 PM
> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; sfc@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security
>
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless= you
> recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> Hi Joel, all,
>
> I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it.=
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=C2=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern
> > Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 =C3=80=C2=A0: sfc@ietf.org Objet=C2=A0: = [sfc] SFC
> > Security
> >
> > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was
> > important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security > > mechanisms for NSH.
> >
> > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/
> >
> > Do folks think this is a good start?=C2=A0 A bad start?
> >
> > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the=
> > chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work item= s
> > until we can prove we can complete out commitments.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Joel
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sfc mailing list
> > sfc@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--0000000000007b0a8705a6b6329a-- From nobody Thu May 28 07:43:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3EB3A0F04; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:43:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HlCrb84wFYNf; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F0E83A0E3B; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id u7so15888337vsp.7; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:43:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pscpAwNXiCSfhdmeGCLioo+QeJZKEoCWsaA2sxGaETs=; b=H3FXDZ+7XLszmtYXlieWoOxSV8Ilz/t+hIOERygNh0IbBpes/V/cKd1sB4qu38pO// p/+ZXs/NCBA0HcJ0FMrp5Us3BRVto4hvdGC3oftmMJqoy2nCMfCEI4x4dW2z0aTKVMFs DUAg0Q/74rLuQ4YtO70m97ayekTdMnyDptADyZ0UCWzBZcFkbICJj4dp8N0bGlYb4Tku odfYfEiE3q80u4Nka7gixcOTcbIc+FtuJBt/6VCdnYwpdsUDLHqu6Pie4L4UfFWkFhhd cyHBWQ8ZBovFKflez4Xioj573ZTcLWCqsYoG9OnJBPvcyK4z+frs2ntXcFNKqaZHHioD 5Zcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pscpAwNXiCSfhdmeGCLioo+QeJZKEoCWsaA2sxGaETs=; b=kDD8Q43N017dkcupE/KsLtl1leTU01R0v1HaYg71RVO9brwPddeg6Jl0C+4A6XWQsg Ke+ctptn9SROcWWvbbGyFOus9A7GaMM0pGpaU+46X2l0JqhKO2T0iKJ0PqN33wXGIXiO oLKcq7P5oF9u1DUfUjsI89c00DNNdx0gmHshJ31EmZiOW3kLWlls5+7nytb95d9oKPRp gjOskkRdrRROgvLJKMQUvVte50sUJDcDPxvM48VohTQEnk5iDE3wOE83KczGxmZ2fU3J BnNNU9VjGoA0t4ixLmk3jt3eXyYPZXyaNCCLy2Ip8yN6ud9PqyzCDDLPv94I+JoTImBY ImtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329UH9Fcg9vY/o/1o2ydT6oqqaP40n4uLoA1p2zGXm3zrLA/ttk 0f0AB0AzhLXrS8RYAvdAzPHVEHuLJ/igZZFEHyk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxT5KHTiDQ7Gg3bCgERULLh/215XANblTRfGqRvTfQWeEz8CF31S+31URHFBxZRnEgTL6Bw97aWvpKzC5k1DNw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1703:: with SMTP id 3mr2347324vsx.169.1590677004528; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:43:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c712682-75ee-f6ea-3355-af2271fc0d75@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C69E4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:43:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" Cc: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ceb21005a6b659b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 14:43:28 -0000 --000000000000ceb21005a6b659b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To be more explicit, I am happy to contribute / review to further versions of the document. Yours, Daniel On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 10:32 AM Daniel Migault wrote= : > I have reviewed the document. I believe it is a good start and I support > the adoption of the document. > Yours, > Daniel > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 6:04 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy < > TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote: > >> I support adoption and will contribute to progress the draft. >> >> -Tiru >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:17 PM >> > To: Joel M. Halpern ; sfc@ietf.org >> > Cc: draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org >> > Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security >> > >> > CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless >> you >> > recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> > >> > Hi Joel, all, >> > >> > I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Med >> > >> > > -----Message d'origine----- >> > > De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern >> > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 =C3=80 : sfc@ietf.org Objet= : [sfc] >> SFC >> > > Security >> > > >> > > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was >> > > important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security >> > > mechanisms for NSH. >> > > >> > > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims: >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/ >> > > >> > > Do folks think this is a good start? A bad start? >> > > >> > > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the >> > > chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work items >> > > until we can prove we can complete out commitments. >> > > >> > > Yours, >> > > Joel >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > sfc mailing list >> > > sfc@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> > > > -- > Daniel Migault > Ericsson > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --000000000000ceb21005a6b659b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To be more explicit, I am happy to contribute / review to = further versions of the document.=C2=A0
Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 10:32 AM Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I have reviewed the= document. I believe=C2=A0it is a good start and I support the adoption of = the document.=C2=A0
Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel=C2=A0

=
On Thu, Ma= y 28, 2020 at 6:04 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mc= afee.com> wrote:
I support adoption and will contribute to progress the draft.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> <= mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:17 PM
> To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; sfc@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security
>
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless= you
> recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> Hi Joel, all,
>
> I do support this effort and commit to work on it if the WG adopts it.=
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=C2=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Joel M. Halpern
> > Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 27 mai 2020 17:36 =C3=80=C2=A0: sfc@ietf.org Objet=C2=A0: = [sfc] SFC
> > Security
> >
> > We as a working group hava milestone which the IESG felt was
> > important, and which we agreed to work on, to provide security > > mechanisms for NSH.
> >
> > We have one individual draft that suggests such mechansims:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/draft-rebo-sfc-nsh-integrity/
> >
> > Do folks think this is a good start?=C2=A0 A bad start?
> >
> > For those folks who would like to be working on other things, the=
> > chairs note that we are very reluctant to engage in new work item= s
> > until we can prove we can complete out commitments.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Joel
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sfc mailing list
> > sfc@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--000000000000ceb21005a6b659b6-- From nobody Fri May 29 09:13:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA9A3A0D74; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HB_sjAxPcdB4; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 698233A0D77; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id m18so3283644ljo.5; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LuZo7DSW59dZ6Z2lDTM+K7SCUflZApYytYr6W6t5g4A=; b=lZyjRZseLDfRvrJyZxi6hkv5CAV3XLNbsP6+CUocODxwxL9omLooXu5I+UhZwsUubj 3NI7BY8RVambwx6gMw2tJD44tccq/e5rpnEZSIovhXcUIXIZc1oP/6sV4Wk6u8gxIUUs kzV4N/UwmMFlTcGSyJ+pPO6gtkXoEUOMHo7Gg6X77beBMjuQuu3446FrXEb34TcOR1kx SUJhdo+ZrpsTIy7gdC0Vat8k6x+LA/jtNgOR15PTAdZP8wABdHfLqR/fHgqGb9PATWsY 2hIfmZRJLuVcHO3Hqu3v8m9S6/Fu77swn82x7XkkoK2DoNZ+oHNLGwuR71VXn9Vb3+ve 7evg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LuZo7DSW59dZ6Z2lDTM+K7SCUflZApYytYr6W6t5g4A=; b=tDQsQfWPvyksWTJdcrZAUym2egFGIeyYaoBGzW0zvZqISLLb0l0IyA1aq0H8Eklu5u wneq0UDA4f5XRw+zamWO0b2FcdSNsLRtkXI94eUECqN2YzlscDZ9fJaThhX+4aDpTIul wG+U2ZHJWaijCIssncLMxGXUuneOHzsaPhsOQ1F9mk2wAQrVM5eB9zMVhav+MYs1NYYb fcX6TTTJIh7XsZWdIdQ/yRaC/FPCiWuv/HZrqEqrsroxSG64UJkGrPQDncNEPWnN1Nn/ OwlBWQFlitcUW9wp8RXQPlI2NrVkQmpZrvywOjEtO0jPQmBmipca4FhdNIpn+mVg0DrB YiBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ByDu8zn4bVmRdvz3QhsuyRplKrhO2/F/xOlXVLkF9ieb5mloR Ul49c5hXWDWwL+LZ5RfNBdqnGGjdPo2pmaPQk70= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKXaBWqxjTWwkPjFtOTgCkkGuwbVceZoN9xrwL/hWczTVjpIoG2LgpE30QMUohrLclWUE9rhIJ2IihOLEMMQg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:97c3:: with SMTP id m3mr4184855ljj.23.1590768832136; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159002475323.18843.9559672930298713998@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:13:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: Service Function Chaining IETF list , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028c8e605a6cbbb05" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:13:58 -0000 --00000000000028c8e605a6cbbb05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Carlos, thank you for your questions and comments. I apologize for the belated response but that has been a pretty dense week (in a good way). I'll respond to your questions early next week. I hope that is acceptable to you= . Regards, Greg On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:15 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > Dear Greg, > > We much appreciate your comments and questions. > > > Thank you for asking and inviting commentary. Here=E2=80=99s some thought= s: > > Hello, WG, Chairs, > > I believe fundamental concerns with this work remain unanswered =E2=80=94= examples: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/NdxlfxBuvaFp3eU8yFuLqKvNteQ/ > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/TT3L-R05fbIGkfjr-x_oifBrhsc/ > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/sSO2BcgXereje4PxnGY9Wv_pDOs/ > And since some of those questions were asked during adoption, I=E2=80=99d > recommend at least un-adopting this document. > > Email threading in one-year-old and two-year-old emails is super hard to > parse and follow, so some key concerns are: > 1. This document describes an OAM solution, but ignores the WG=E2=80=99s = SFC OAM > framework which sits with the IESG. > 2. Existing protocols can already provide solutions without the need of > inventing a new protocol on paper. See #1 above. > 3. There are already documented SFC traceroute implementations but this > document has no implementation experience. See #2 above. > > Dear Greg, > > Could you please start responding to previous questions? Apologies in > advance if I missed any of your responses. > > Per our analysis, existing OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping an= d > SFP traceroute. > > > Which analysis? Perhaps you could share that analysis? > > Consider ICMP. When encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping function > but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing tool. > > > What exactly did you need to add to have that functionality as opposed to > your consideration of ICMP? > > Thanks! > > Carlos. > > > > 2020/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C10:51=E3=80=81Greg Mirsky =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > > Dear All, > this version includes a minor update to the Security Considerations > section. > We, the authors, believe that the draft is ready for the WG LC. It define= s > an essential function of SFC OAM - SFP Echo request/reply. Per our > analysis, existing OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping and SFP > traceroute. Consider ICMP. When encapsulated in NSH, it supports the ping > function but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing tool. > We much appreciate your comments and questions. > > Dear Jim and Joel, > please kindly consider the WG LC for this draft. > > Regards, > Greg > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.t= xt > To: Bhumip Khasnabish , Cui(Linda) Wang < > lindawangjoy@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky , Wei Meng < > meng.wei2@zte.com.cn> > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt > has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam > Revision: 05 > Title: Active OAM for Service Function Chains in Networks > Document date: 2020-05-20 > Group: sfc > Pages: 18 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.tx= t > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05 > > Abstract: > A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and > Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in networks is > presented. Based on these requirements an encapsulation of active > OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defects > described. Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the definition of > O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines how the > active OAM message identified in SFC NSH. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > --00000000000028c8e605a6cbbb05 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Carlos,
thank you for your questions and comm= ents. I apologize for the belated response but that has been a pretty dense= week (in a good way). I'll respond to your questions early next week. = I hope that is acceptable to you.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:15 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &l= t;cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
Dear Greg,

We much appreciate your comments and= questions.

Thank you for asking and inviting commentary. Here=E2=80=99s some = thoughts:

Hello, WG, Chairs,

=
I believe fundamental concerns with this work remain unanswered =E2=80= =94 examples:
And since some of= those questions were asked during adoption, I=E2=80=99d recommend at least= un-adopting this document.

Email threading in one= -year-old and two-year-old emails is super hard to parse and follow, so som= e key concerns are:
1. This document describes an OAM solution, b= ut ignores the WG=E2=80=99s SFC OAM framework which sits with the IESG.
2. Existing protocols can already provide solutions without the need= of inventing a new protocol on paper. See #1 above.
3. There are= already documented SFC traceroute implementations but this document has no= implementation experience. See #2 above.

Dear Gre= g,

Could you please start responding to previous q= uestions? Apologies in advance if I missed any of your responses.

Per our ana= lysis, existing=C2=A0OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping and SFP tr= aceroute.

Which analysis? Perh= aps you could share that analysis?

Consider ICMP. When encapsulated=C2=A0in NSH, it supports = the ping function but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing t= ool.

What exactly did you need to ad= d to have that functionality as opposed to your consideration of ICMP?

Thanks!

Carlos.


202= 0/05/20 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C10:51=E3=80=81Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=E3=81= =AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:

Dear All,this version includes a minor update to the Security Considerations secti= on.
We, the authors, believe that the draft is ready for the WG L= C. It defines an essential function of SFC OAM - SFP Echo request/reply. Pe= r our analysis, existing=C2=A0OAM mechanisms cannot support both SFP ping a= nd SFP traceroute. Consider ICMP. When encapsulated=C2=A0in NSH, it support= s the ping function but, per our analysis, cannot be used as an SFP tracing= tool.
We much appreciate your comments and questions.
=
Dear Jim and Joel,
please kindly consider the WG L= C for this draft.

Regards,
Greg

----= ------ Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf= .org>
Date: Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM
Subject: New V= ersion Notification for draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
To: Bhumip= Khasnabish <vumip= 1@gmail.com>, Cui(Linda) Wang <lindawangjoy@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <<= a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail= .com>, Wei Meng <meng.wei2@zte.com.cn>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oa= m
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A005
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Active OAM for Service Function Ch= ains in Networks
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-05-20
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sfc
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 18
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sfc-mul= ti-layer-oam-05.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam/ Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam-05
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-multi-layer-oam
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-multi-lay= er-oam-05

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A set of requirements for active Operation, Administration and=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) of Service Function Chains (SFCs) in network= s is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0presented.=C2=A0 Based on these requirements an encapsulation = of active
=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM message in SFC and a mechanism to detect and localize defe= cts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described.=C2=A0 Also, this document updates RFC 8300 in the d= efinition of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0O (OAM) bit in the Network Service Header (NSH) and defines ho= w the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0active OAM message identified in SFC NSH.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
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https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

<= /div>
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Fri, 29 May 2020 21:43:07 +0000 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Alissa Cooper CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" , "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tal Mizrahi Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWJHP6MkOlgl4Wo0urYAYmGFC6nqitp8eAgBITmIA= Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 21:43:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158885833897.21185.5792022165179335411@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:760:21aa:44b8:94a:1cc5:3727] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8a817736-b9f8-4a81-c7cf-08d8041946b3 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN8PR11MB3796: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_9ED4F284-705C-46CC-925F-7E5B916FF466" --Apple-Mail=_9ED4F284-705C-46CC-925F-7E5B916FF466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Alissa, Following up on your DISCUSS =E2=80=94 could you please check if the = clarification below plus the changes -13 -> -15 address your concern, or = if there=E2=80=99s more you=E2=80=99d like to DISCUSS? = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13&url2=3D= draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15 = Many thanks, C. > 2020/05/18 =E5=8D=88=E5=89=8D5:40=E3=80=81Nagendra Kumar Nainar = (naikumar) =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > HI Alissa, >=20 > Thank you for the comments. Please see inline for the response. >=20 > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Table 3 has "None" in all the cells corresponding to SF and SFC OAM = functions. > But then Sections 6.4.1 through 6.4.4 discuss several tools that = can be used to > provide some of these functions. I understand that the text about = the table > says "Table 3 below is not exhaustive," but still it seems = misleading to say > "None" in the table when there are, in fact, tools available that = are discussed > just a few paragraphs later. >=20 > Unlike the underlay/overlay networks where these tools work = natively, the application of the existing OAM tools in SFC elements = comes with some assumption that the SF is capable of differentiating the = OAM packets using overlay header signaling or by other means and = process/reply accordingly. Section 6.4.x explains how these can be = applied for SFC OAM function but not how it works currently. = Accordingly, we believe that this is still a gap and so prefer leaving = it as "None". We can update the section to reflect that table is listing = the tools that "natively" work. >=20 > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Section 4.1: "Verify the policy of an SFC or SF." --> This seems a = little > vague. What about the policy is meant to be verified? >=20 > AFAIK, policy is an integral part of the SFC architecture = allowing the operators to define the traffic classification rules, the = set of SFs to be applied and the order in which the SFs should be = applied etc. The above listed point appears to be straightforward. = Please let us know your suggestion for text preference if there is any = ambiguity. >=20 > Section 6: The title of this section threw me off. I would suggest = putting > Section 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 into one section about "Operational = Aspects of SFC > OAM at the Service Layer" and then starting a new Section 7 about = "Candidate > SFC OAM Tools" that begins with the current Section 6.4 text. >=20 > This can be done. We will move 6.1,6.2,6.3 to a separate = section. >=20 > Section 6.1: The normative language seems out of place here. >=20 > Based on the comments from various reviewers, we removed = the use of normative statement in this document. >=20 > Once again, thanks a lot for the great comments. >=20 > Regards, > Nagendra >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9ED4F284-705C-46CC-925F-7E5B916FF466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi, = Alissa,

Following up = on your DISCUSS =E2=80=94 could you please check if the clarification = below plus the changes -13 -> -15 address your concern, or if = there=E2=80=99s more you=E2=80=99d like to DISCUSS?

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framewor= k-13&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-15

Many thanks,

C.

2020/05/18= =E5=8D=88=E5=89=8D5:40=E3=80=81Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:=

HI Alissa,

Thank you for the = comments. Please see inline for the response.

   Alissa Cooper has entered the following = ballot position for
=    draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-13: Discuss

   When responding, please = keep the subject line intact and reply to all
=    email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel = free to cut this
   introductory = paragraph, however.)


=    Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html    for more information about IESG DISCUSS = and COMMENT positions.


=    The document, along with other ballot positions, can = be found here:
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/<= /a>



=    --------------------------------------------------------= --------------
   DISCUSS:
=    --------------------------------------------------------= --------------

   Table 3 = has "None" in all the cells corresponding to SF and SFC OAM = functions.
   But then Sections 6.4.1 = through 6.4.4 discuss several tools that can be used to
=    provide some of these functions. I understand that the = text about the table
   says "Table 3 = below is not exhaustive," but still it seems misleading to say
   "None" in the table when there are, in = fact, tools available that are discussed
=    just a few paragraphs later.

<Nagendra> Unlike the underlay/overlay networks where = these tools work natively, the application of the existing OAM tools in = SFC elements comes with some assumption that the SF is capable of = differentiating the OAM packets using overlay header signaling or by = other means and process/reply accordingly. Section 6.4.x explains how = these can be applied for SFC OAM function but not how it works = currently. Accordingly, we believe that this is still a gap and so = prefer leaving it as "None". We can update the section to reflect that = table is listing the tools that "natively" work.

=    --------------------------------------------------------= --------------
   COMMENT:
=    --------------------------------------------------------= --------------

   Section = 4.1: "Verify the policy of an SFC or SF." --> This seems a little
   vague. What about the policy is meant to = be verified?

<Nagendra> AFAIK, policy = is an integral part of the SFC architecture allowing the operators to = define the traffic classification rules, the set of SFs to be applied = and the order in which the SFs should be applied etc. The above listed = point appears to be straightforward. Please let us know your suggestion = for text preference if there is any ambiguity.  

   Section 6: The title of this section threw = me off. I would suggest putting
   Section = 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 into one section about "Operational Aspects of SFC
   OAM at the Service Layer" and then = starting a new Section 7 about "Candidate
=    SFC OAM Tools" that begins with the current Section = 6.4 text.

<Nagendra>This can be done. = We will move 6.1,6.2,6.3 to a separate section.

   Section 6.1: The normative language seems = out of place here.

<Nagendra> Based = on the comments from various reviewers, we removed the use of normative = statement in this document.

Once again, = thanks a lot for the great comments.

Regards,
Nagendra






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