From weiler+lists.sidr@watson.org Tue Jun 2 09:46:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6A83A67FD for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XzANHMrgrYxf for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0593A7018 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52GjQht022468 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:45:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from weiler+lists.sidr@watson.org) Received: from localhost (weiler@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id n52GjQ8B022465 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:45:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from weiler+lists.sidr@watson.org) X-Authentication-Warning: fledge.watson.org: weiler owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Samuel Weiler X-X-Sender: weiler@fledge.watson.org To: sidr@ietf.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (fledge.watson.org [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:45:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [sidr] Audio timestamps from IETF74 San Francisco X-BeenThere: sidr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Interdomain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:46:32 -0000 I went back and listened to the audio archive of the San Francisco meeting. I plan to post some form of notes or partial transcript, but I'm starting with some timestamps from the audio file so that others looking for particular discussions might better be able to find them. These are the times shown by my MP3 player when listening to: ftp://videolab.uoregon.edu/pub/videolab/media/ietf74/ietf74-continental_4-tues-am.mp3 The below is NOT intended to be a summary of the meeting, just a set of guideposts along the way. See subsequent post(s) for the details. [11:15] meeting starts [13:45] Greg Lebovitz promoting the kmart work [17:50] Matt Lepinski re: architecture draft. [25:30] Sandy's Q re: RIR names [31:00] Rob A re: mandatory stable name Matt re: ERX example; Terry responds [44:30] Sandy re: name uniqueness [51:15] Steve Kent on CP doc [1:00:45] Steve implies that he's using MSWord for writing i-d's [1:01:40] Andrei Robashevsky Q's [1:06:00] done with CP [1:06:45} Geoff presenting on TA-00 [1:14:09] Q&A; long discussion [1:42:30] someone barks [1:52:50] accusations of theft [1:53:30] guidance from Dave Ward, outgoing AD [1:57:10] ROAs, BOAs, and validation pre-discussion [2:00:00] Geoff presenting [2:11:37] discussion [2:41:13] meeting ends From curtis@occnc.com Mon Jun 8 19:02:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F3F28C199 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSVNpvVII8B8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harbor.orleans.occnc.com (harbor.orleans.occnc.com [173.9.106.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC0C28C193 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harbor.orleans.occnc.com (harbor.orleans.occnc.com [173.9.106.135]) by harbor.orleans.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59225aV024613; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:02:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.orleans.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200906090202.n59225aV024613@harbor.orleans.occnc.com> To: Danny McPherson From: Curtis Villamizar In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 May 2009 10:32:38 MDT." Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:02:05 -0400 Sender: curtis@occnc.com Cc: sidr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sidr] Route Leaks X-BeenThere: sidr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: Secure Interdomain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:02:59 -0000 In message Danny McPherson writes: > > > On May 27, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: > > > > > This happens a lot. I have a large set of data over the past years > > that is collected here: > > > > http://puck.nether.net/bgp/leakinfo.cgi > > > > There is constant noise visible. The currently visible problem set > > can be resolved with presently available tools (eg: better bgp > > policy w/ communities). > > And I'm saying if SIDR doesn't protect against this, and > it happens a lot, then we're leaving a very large void. > > > There is very little incentive for providers to fix this. > > Right, until it's used to launch a targeted attack against > a target someone cares about. To say there's no incentive > to fix this is to say there's no incentive for SIDR. > > > We constantly have leaks with some customers leaking their transit- > > learned path for a customer of theirs. > > > That was my experience as well... > > -danny Danny, As a WG we agreed to bury our heads in the sand (*footnote*) long ago. Are you suggesting that the WG revisit a prior fundamental decision? Curtis (*footnote*) For anyone unfamiliar, this is a common expression in English speaking cultures for ignoring an obvious problem. When frightened an ostrich will bury its head in the sand to hide from the perceived danger. It is not considered a very intellegent strategy. From sandy@tislabs.com Wed Jun 10 09:32:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4843A6E82 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Le-ckkcXkvac for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nutshell.tislabs.com (sentry.gw.tislabs.com [192.94.214.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24933A6CFD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nutshell.tislabs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id n5AGVasx013689 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nodnsquery(10.66.1.30) by nutshell.tislabs.com via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAPmaaVA; Wed, 10 Jun 09 12:31:36 -0400 Received: by pecan.tislabs.com (Postfix, from userid 2005) id 993703F418; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:28:04 -0400 (EDT) To: sidr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200906090202.n59225aV024613@harbor.orleans.occnc.com> Message-Id: <20090610162804.993703F418@pecan.tislabs.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:28:04 -0400 (EDT) From: sandy@tislabs.com (Sandy Murphy) Cc: sandy@tislabs.com Subject: Re: [sidr] Route Leaks X-BeenThere: sidr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Interdomain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:32:36 -0000 On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:02:05 -0400, Curtis Villamizar said: >Danny, > >As a WG we agreed to bury our heads in the sand (*footnote*) long ago. > >Are you suggesting that the WG revisit a prior fundamental decision? First, this was a chartering decision, not a wg decision. The charter says the wg will work on origin authorization because: (a) USEFULNESS: origin authorization solves an existing important problem (b) FUTURE WORK: origin authorization is the base case, the first step, the canonical case of each, all (see also: EVERY) known proposed BGP security solution. We'd have to do this anyway, no matter what. (c) PROCESS: sidr was chartered to carry out the requirements set by the rpsec wg. The rpsec wg said origin authorization was required but was struggling with consensus about protecting other attributes (i.e., path protection, etc.). So sidr was chartered to do origin authorization and then any other requirments rpsec came up with. Because of (b) this strategy was known not to be a waste of time. But, sadly, rpsec folded before they could finish setting other requirements. It is recognized and known that origin authorization does not provide full BGP security. Once we get this done, we will find a way to progress to figuring out the next step. This is the first step and we need to get it done. --Sandy From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com Mon Jun 15 10:31:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC493A6CF8 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:31:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m-Pmz3vhxW3O for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from M4.sparta.com (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907C33A6AAA for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id n5FHVffX011948 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:31:41 -0500 Received: from nemo.columbia.ads.sparta.com (nemo.columbia.sparta.com [157.185.80.75]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5FHVgPU015342 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:31:42 -0500 Received: from SANDYM-LT.columbia.ads.sparta.com ([192.35.166.11]) by nemo.columbia.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:31:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:31:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Sandra Murphy To: sidr@ietf.org Message-ID: X-X-Sender: sandy@nemo.columbia.sparta.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2009 17:31:41.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[253303C0:01C9EDDF] Subject: [sidr] important meeting dates X-BeenThere: sidr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Interdomain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:31:57 -0000 A reminder of the important meeting dates for the upcoming meeting. June 19, Friday - Preliminary agenda published for comment. June 29, Monday - Working Group Chair approval for initial document (Version -00) submissions appreciated by 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT). July 6, Monday - Final agenda to be published. July 6, Monday - Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00) submission by 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT) July 13, Monday - Internet Draft final submission cut-off by 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT) July 15, Wednesday - Draft Working Group agendas due by 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT) July 17, Friday - Early-Bird registration and payment cut-off at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC/GMT). If you intend to submit a wg -00 draft, you should be getting in touch with Geoff *and* me real soon now. Remember that wg drafts must go through the process of being accepted by the wg as a work item before they can be submitted as a wg -00 draft. --Sandy From terry.manderson@icann.org Mon Jun 15 22:02:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidr@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BF03A6830 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:02:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.672 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.672 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.927, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fj7gwZtT1ykF for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org (expfe100-1.exc.icann.org [64.78.22.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212713A6805 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.236]) with mapi; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:02:33 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: "sidr@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:02:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: Use cases for RPKI in SIDR Thread-Index: AcnuP6VGpaZzOdYXpkitXZExgk5N0Q== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en, en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en, en-US Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_C65D648698terrymandersonicannorg_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [sidr] Use cases for RPKI in SIDR X-BeenThere: sidr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Interdomain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:02:24 -0000 --_002_C65D648698terrymandersonicannorg_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, In IETF 74 a call was made to the SIDR-WG to define the organisational use cases that would precipitate use of the RPKI certificates and objects in a routing sense. Shortly after, a small group of interested individuals began proposing text and discussing approaches. This culminated in an informational individual submission that takes the following approach: - Define organisation's use cases based on current observations and desires - Ask the work group if there are any omissions - Work toward documenting the broad RPKI actions that an organisation (in origination) needs to do before a relying party can make any interpretations of (in)validity. This might then be used by the WG and authors of other drafts to ask questions pertaining to the completeness, direction, and applicability of the work from a clear use case basis. It can also be used as common ground for developing the understanding of WG participants and observers in the technology. The draft is attached for your review, and the authors and I would be most appreciative if you could read this document and either before, or at, IETF 75 provide your comments. 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