From nobody Fri Sep 13 09:19:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF041120073; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6FXUc1sD8IuF; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 834C4120041; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:19:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: sidrops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x8DGJU20098916 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:19:31 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Chris Morrow Cc: sidrops@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops-ads@ietf.org References: From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:19:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 16:19:40 -0000 Chris Morrow wrote on 21/07/2019 22:19: > SIDROps folks! > > Please consider this an adoption call for the subject draft, abstract > of which is: > > "This document defines a deployment model for reconsidered validation > [RFC8360] in the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI). > > It stipulates that Relying Parties in the RPKI MUST support > reconsidered validation by 1 July TBD-Year, and that Certificate > Authorities MAY use the reconsidered validation OIDs in CA > certificates that they issue from this date. Furthermore Certificate > Authorities should monitor whether the set of resources in CA > certificate they receive has shrunk, and make adjustments in the CA > certificates and/or other RPKI objects when appropriate." > > Please have a read, discuss, and comment over the next ~3 weeks period. > Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter. belatedly, this seems like a good idea. My crypto ca/chain-of-trust fu is not up to seeing anything obviously wrong with the idea. Nick From nobody Fri Sep 13 16:50:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31781200FD for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 16:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verizon.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sm7xP7_TJZ-G for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic302-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic302-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.135.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6C512008C for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1568418624; bh=6Ta7doc3EH2Hq7eWh8KZ7og6FKdmkBJ4WK2U/p2L5Y0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=qmArj1Vfk9gWurXynCFQMs82ngNFlYuCxZJS5rm+k3J1ZKGVfYi08bgnm+sPOLmLdPEE1/7F6MF8lg+TH8BmNmZWB2UxRHFsvoQSPoKNlq72drkBn3A9/4GrJQlWRPi8Ss2dZm7vD10vqPW3UYlISuJYc5OZHwa1oi890RED4MNqXLepsBogs8BeCD4xbX7HBhLZ4nR/HszQirUO34XubJq2yAfKP998EQIo1GPOOEL95rIEgJiUQw0iiYsa0TjhxAcoDzagqaRM18v+O41xAb0YiCPZierY9GuUWdZB6+iRaY0LyZRbXQk00Z1FAiDy0xkphIRrOGV6+WqqsH0D9w== X-YMail-OSG: tTjjbaYVM1kGwkT.jXG5Hh_htIWhj65D7sLqLm3KpC5qhicCoA5uC7AbJ6HFjhx RR61._5CxZmKJLDKirRDpIZBDx0PbMEjc8kkYIMmXRVYyD8PAyTE6gqTsUL3r6Kycf17udS7aZ8A N6u4Luoevt1D0dXcWuZpysS8A6hiTGb76ppl2Qc70YHy2KdOSaWee5O8XQ5WFKlC_KU1orB3I.rC mMxRTm3KNw0X5XqKJMMWpI58rAD2pw9hSxVj_xWtJ1ZupVlo7UB1ZV180RaYwQn3.azy8yGMjog8 jWxa8BWTnjlVEMBBKf9jQC0vd3n0Ucb_MgJn0svIwiRRlTvszPYq9NoxguMlHiYm7GXpR5Azt8SM qMdzC5N_4z6SLoXFRdNZSWq5Nl9Ho7rqTfQDXEUjawz7j5npsvVHITkyoDcf8o_AgR55uWmvnVDe G1G2SUzH6wzkYdXoyELNVeYb7nUGKAPdBwcURUVlEtu5ZyA7Qk1AFh9VlfgfrjdemlvRBYnuqDoQ vQsdK424dyalHO1EHmYf0_WGxby4buvt5UZlpAfmLSboLntRTMYkdXZhxmycCm0eKEpm8.MDR0WA C1GbxlzR7D2FPe5uoI.gPJF0Po76UluyCrf2lXBJ32F3gekpZ4e4hNIFmhJrRciVI7Ud_CITF2hq qlBE3KaFyng6wYCmf1SH1RermoTm9vcb5vCvbf6SKxn_x_lL0nYGgSxKrE1.rH04294wBk57f04R nZ2CTjS4FmxnTAzl_mm0jdjDsLxfPXzsg2YWjZnCMTTjm8elkfu15LrF3ufkOzBZoocsIIgr5FS7 70kLUzx_iG3xEgFI7W9Gl528Vkajdn4rGoP1Fa0SnKo_bieRwPRkHnq6Eca2NYCyjHRlA_V3zZkr XCqapJbo1_j4X.G8lNt1k0YUoPyUmIqAIzzHnVbnt93SVBLOhkrYJbIgirPEkBOLehAZFceaHtXo uMDI60E9hWznrLZH68n5WsAe2kPI5AGxnpV10GX_FC6eVfS3nQk3AV4jWr.l6av3EXSuQGctUsME 3dNIQ6D3v.oczzecqj4.jjH4o5AXUtXmB9rvyheMaSbckCf9rte5Wnrt5CWwYlEX3wQD6oGcBm5d JW5wjHaU4thgSbIdCaeyMyq7IVIV1JgVXP6m9Fh1JTSB2mZTjpGBtA09PYH0huBFlVxWbv8VEAFm GOYVElOBn.7jxmM_mIN4MnzgnSmoYMcO2yHSHGyFrchYL9KWHeM4Jh5CNrRTiokdP9.Nji1GAFT5 b.vOAQtVP3ErsRA7FSl7a6f3tKed7Av0GBwGNcCfyDU6gNQFhPZLO.eaa27eVY0Vd47K.wGY- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:50:24 +0000 Received: by smtp413.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a1c6ef8fbd7ebcd37da10b762da42ddf; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:50:20 +0000 (UTC) To: sidrops@ietf.org References: From: Stephen Kent Message-ID: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 19:50:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 23:50:28 -0000 CAs are "Certification Authorities", not "Certificate Authorities", if anyone cares. > Chris Morrow wrote on 21/07/2019 22:19: >> SIDROps folks! >> >> Please consider this an adoption call for the subject draft, abstract >> of which is: >> >> ???? "This document defines a deployment model for reconsidered validation >> ?????? [RFC8360] in the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI). >> >> ?????? It stipulates that Relying Parties in the RPKI MUST support >> ?????? reconsidered validation by 1 July TBD-Year, and that Certificate >> ?????? Authorities MAY use the reconsidered validation OIDs in CA >> ?????? certificates that they issue from this date.?? Furthermore >> Certificate >> ?????? Authorities should monitor whether the set of resources in CA >> ?????? certificate they receive has shrunk, and make adjustments in the CA >> ?????? certificates and/or other RPKI objects when appropriate." >> >> Please have a read, discuss, and comment over the next ~3 weeks period. >> Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter. > > belatedly, this seems like a good idea.?? My crypto ca/chain-of-trust > fu is not up to seeing anything obviously wrong with the idea. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > Sidrops mailing list > Sidrops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops > From nobody Sat Sep 14 13:37:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D5D12001E for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 13:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmluvNIFgpLd for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 13:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25E1F120073 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 13:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: sidrops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x8EKb2X9003506 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 14 Sep 2019 21:37:03 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host admin.ibn.ie [46.182.8.8] claimed to be cupcake.local To: Stephen Kent Cc: sidrops@ietf.org References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 23:37:00 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 20:37:13 -0000 Stephen Kent wrote on 14/09/2019 02:50: > CAs are "Certification Authorities", not "Certificate Authorities", if > anyone cares. it's a bit tragic how few people really understand how the PKI hangs together and the subtleties associated with it :-( Nick From nobody Sun Sep 15 05:41:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024D51200F1 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:41:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nlnetlabs.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vfF5xUhbWGpq for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (dicht.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2a04:b900::1:0:0:10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DBFD1200EC for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.78] (d207-6-49-52.bchsia.telus.net [207.6.49.52]) by dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CA062A53D; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 14:40:59 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=nlnetlabs.nl Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; spf=fail smtp.mailfrom=tim@nlnetlabs.nl DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nlnetlabs.nl; s=default; t=1568551260; bh=7LNH4kEony+g35X/QmG2MzC8xrSnVASOr9hraKmo3og=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=AM52byvHjVze5+nAX8pyUApDG/fovC8ql5Rbq/Do9ZvNsLhcHNBHoWo2O1Kwl9ElV pIHF/a//l1wKG2rZqRtDbcTCqUo8CowQDCMoZCYG0a64yL4KDl2Jkj3Ij+RMN/gFj9 ZGOYSgecG0DY09rbmxG+KM7oGLDOUFp5Miv4dhmU= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F2CBE00-754C-4E72-9B29-CB1E72848D9E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Tim Bruijnzeels In-Reply-To: <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 05:40:54 -0700 Cc: Stephen Kent , sidrops@ietf.org Message-Id: <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> To: Nick Hilliard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:41:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7F2CBE00-754C-4E72-9B29-CB1E72848D9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi > On 14 Sep 2019, at 13:37, Nick Hilliard wrote: >=20 > Stephen Kent wrote on 14/09/2019 02:50: >> CAs are "Certification Authorities", not "Certificate Authorities", = if anyone cares. >=20 > it's a bit tragic how few people really understand how the PKI hangs = together and the subtleties associated with it :-( I guess it's a bit like insisting that the whole world should call the = metal aluminum, rather than aluminium.. or the other way around for that = matter. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_authority = But anyhow, if it's changed to say Certification Authorities, can we = then have a constructive exchange about adoption? I think the real = tragedy here is not the use of the term "Certificate Authority" Tim >=20 > Nick >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sidrops mailing list > Sidrops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops --Apple-Mail=_7F2CBE00-754C-4E72-9B29-CB1E72848D9E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi


On 14 Sep 2019, at 13:37, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> = wrote:

Stephen Kent wrote on 14/09/2019 02:50:
CAs are "Certification = Authorities", not "Certificate Authorities", if anyone cares.

it's a bit tragic how few people = really understand how the PKI hangs together and the subtleties = associated with it :-(


I guess it's a bit like = insisting that the whole world should call the metal aluminum, rather = than aluminium.. or the other way around for that matter.

See here:

But anyhow, if it's changed to say = Certification Authorities, can we then have a constructive exchange = about adoption? I think the real tragedy here is not the use of the term = "Certificate Authority"

Tim




Nick

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= --Apple-Mail=_7F2CBE00-754C-4E72-9B29-CB1E72848D9E-- From nobody Sun Sep 15 08:20:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B44120124 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:20:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verizon.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPSLiOWojoPc for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.135.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FD1312011E for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=verizon.net; s=a2048; t=1568560851; bh=hK+TdJKHc+Kyg+0NGIbMx4uNzPzxD1c5hwcI7eObtvg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=H9etWArl1lGmqk9PwpqhewJwl/o7Z3wvAKQI+K3Z4R7APLtrQrPeY//ngPp2ShFhBB1Y0YGSzasxEdutMux0XwMzYMcCtGTtIT5ttAO9rPTVuNkXJMIlV8u4ZJ9guA4WmbNdZ4mLTv6HwQh6agCttKFX3MBOK+JyCVBgMHstEn8XfaKM6gQqDiknFDKM39C/q4+ZjcJdvV0uYvPzBKwhX8VlASzmfWXbByixo6jLJOd6363c0mFScpbaQMKNmd/SoEWD6o/QLNKyI0p1dfH6iiBw79QsNvIZVmoLURa4FufC7DJsFycy6Bq9X4j7x4CNZ7tdDarhgtM5B790t9xcAg== X-YMail-OSG: rzQ8FSYVM1nfA1jiSEeqJTDQaRaaTQzeWJgR2cOX3_35BKyHWBxHnZ0KTxjlFdr G1J74xn29N2CVybf6QdJHRUaCL6o78L.4GgalMOlcZJLBTDqvJBGzsEjx00lLGq2XJ1A_vPX8nyq VnOwjFGawYodQM.b8Xzg7rffryTAMIy9WS5wAnF29cT4EDKHAxjeb6Up2chzHnL5Q3EdLoH0yjmm zCyatOYRO_aLBJFUSF.lwzRnWh_g8zdgcWRZunXF5bYbezuKGM2LXuVjw.bEKn0e6iOIyZt8lrhv 4Pw9NZTX3HlLKWKw8_FFsi8VwVEAAwlfoaZtgZgOIm8j8Bk_hlBIiU_HZL97XKpEcgblzajDW55E jTQ4MFfeIgZXQJGPszmqiJc5.GXP8HM17fO1g2GfBLO6FqxVQaJQ0ess8bqHXhWjCpLb1G6wwZJx 1Xpx4y1w9DVBkwoWYr96KNu5tFc7TsCfNxj1sCUpUFFG4RKVjeluUKOnQOn_jYIzaOgNU4n6sNG7 9RfPzZ4.oydHn8FdCUZygpRwQ8Xjg6mq9CO_d762sdH3usT9FMFkk4jHvCIqOeJSI1QIvP5wuXay vZ4JbGij4b0MWbX3zRcgu.3yYPPMNZRFyFNTDG6jeb9QM8MwVAJJV3J6eMjsvrytFe_Xkfcc9ZTH X2b2SJQ2EAkAMCRY9mV7aHOjRVnBR.XJ0fWHm9SP3iMrTBzt4wZPRnaxup1b1IZCNHtA8o60YC2A 2gF277BXzkRoLN4nQ3pORSVxYfAfTAvoDsSVoPxMEDJx8VZXJTrDy6fAB8bikInmYSQGOo..rY4y xpsAJ0rWwVAiGC5Q5gqgu5AoAi.Syt3cs3vX3mCV4eGDj.6zirORxK3g5wvbt9Or0Bk3T6QlGAY6 b_CRcUl.UNIePMgOgO0ek5UQOWq9iJrac6K0Ka5EVCF2XI7LsG6Z78.9XhaQ1FqXdzUcUEjsmXhT C2Z6NB0Jerps6CbsgCREX2yCo5rz8okiL3CG10asMxkNdZoaRbrrl960DZJ7cl11llJNCFNKNZ.d iocuhziqGqqysUdDiVCKJFA5Lq1eyeL5rcN7cQtJwsAuqVS9qvoo6dzyTyLkdhF3WvS_QH6z9P0u FzwPK6dAMmKCj9B4HhBrjzoAJkBYLW2z3me0OOfccTVerFSCyIxPqF97C0tj3hpSz4iWiKRye3KX C9QlBTEMNLy6_rZo87_._uJRHu3AOq7i5OPKe4eCJOB0.ZR6.j64qEZ5PttY2_NDASo0HZakVXoL i71Sd1ihb4sk1T6VoN6uaduIbjxfkjTn9llylQODsiQWA4hVGg5JK.zuA6XPb5vgNuprXaqFZ1oi eoNXu.9htNTBHv87Dmf4- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 15:20:51 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4a0a4a2e07d507a454002937ad0b0a50; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 15:20:50 +0000 (UTC) To: Tim Bruijnzeels , Nick Hilliard Cc: sidrops@ietf.org References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> From: Stephen Kent Message-ID: <3da8fb19-0742-10f2-429b-c58dddef884d@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:20:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 15:20:54 -0000 Tim, Wikipedia is not what I would call authoritative :-). Look at the relevant IETF RFCs (e.g., 5280), and? X.509. They are authoritative. I agree that major reasons for accepting or rejecting adoption of this document are not about whether the document authors use the correct terminology. However, if authors don't use the proper terms when describing PKI technology, it may cause readers to question the knowledge of the authors. You should want to avoid that possible outcome. Steve From nobody Sun Sep 15 10:41:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BCB1200C5 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RxXYs7IO1qIL for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB54120116 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i9YWj-0007I7-GD; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:41:33 +0000 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 10:41:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Tim Bruijnzeels Cc: Nick Hilliard , Stephen Kent , sidrops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:41:43 -0000 > I think the real tragedy here is not the use of the term "Certificate > Authority" i strongly agree. imiho, this whole validation reconsidered path is of no brnefit and, through complexity, offers opportunity for harm. this document tries to sugar coat a vile pill. randy From nobody Sun Sep 15 13:46:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F6512008F for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:46:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nlnetlabs.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ksrj44PAz89n for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (dicht.nlnetlabs.nl [185.49.140.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EB971200B5 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from node-1w7jr9qt27svf000hkf8gjsln.ipv6.telus.net (node-1w7jr9qt27svf000hkf8gjsln.ipv6.telus.net [IPv6:2001:569:7bf2:6400:885d:59ac:785d:378b]) by dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 535AA2AB85; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 22:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=nlnetlabs.nl Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; spf=fail smtp.mailfrom=tim@nlnetlabs.nl DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nlnetlabs.nl; s=default; t=1568580388; bh=/rMkXy7jcsy9ts7IaEzcAOVwLXOVDD16sdAZd+NRikU=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=roMPcVBATnWbqvWd96aZWt6MI8hpLx0OxOwAyg69dOTYiYEvjH3nT+s7VHkCYyX0p gW+VsxW3JWGr6GMRTN0IMeXdDr6XONlO17ljgMKt5uIyZiwmJjInOioNYR5iaSwLSM 7IMvX8pg8Q+no/dweyBNwVa37aE+J9DIejNbclXs= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Tim Bruijnzeels In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:46:13 -0700 Cc: Nick Hilliard , Stephen Kent , sidrops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 20:46:33 -0000 Hi Randy, all, > On 15 Sep 2019, at 10:41, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 >> I think the real tragedy here is not the use of the term "Certificate >> Authority" >=20 > i strongly agree. imiho, this whole validation reconsidered path is = of > no brnefit and, through complexity, offers opportunity for harm. While I do not agree with this, I respect that you bring this up. In = fact I think that establishing that there is no consensus for having a = discussion about the deployment of RFC8630 is much more constructive to = the adoption question. > this document tries to sugar coat a vile pill. What this document tries to do, is to make it clear how, by example, = RFC8630 could be deployed into the existing RPKI infrastructure, and = what the consequences would be, so that we can have a constructive = debate about how and why this would offer benefits and/or risks. That being said, if there can be no consensus that we can even have that = discussion because the goal of deploying RFC8630 in itself is rejected, = then I don't see much point in spending more energy on this. Tim >=20 > randy From nobody Sun Sep 15 13:54:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEF9120110 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nlnetlabs.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ByLVjLYRdNgq for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (dicht.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2a04:b900::1:0:0:10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18993120116 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from node-1w7jr9qt27svf000hkf8gjsln.ipv6.telus.net (node-1w7jr9qt27svf000hkf8gjsln.ipv6.telus.net [IPv6:2001:569:7bf2:6400:885d:59ac:785d:378b]) by dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8E0B2ABE8; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 22:54:06 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=nlnetlabs.nl Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; spf=fail smtp.mailfrom=tim@nlnetlabs.nl DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nlnetlabs.nl; s=default; t=1568580847; bh=pqfubqMkqvFOJBgb6nw3hng4IC8UA47sH61XWFUAyts=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=QMr1hTXvxj2jlqw1PSpduCZt/tnMGWv1lEPXUdEy5vuEpzQya82f9to85Dqbzxqhq pNJt37nbUMAfp+UjGrcm+GeRyNuWmIpwGbl60azKxA2lmX5XHRo811d6qBiZlxB6hp RYYHC94m2o/YjfeBmRUG/M3ahz3XGa30HvmeqKbI= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E1716912-9F6D-4338-8E33-D14FD5AFC8F7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Tim Bruijnzeels In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:54:01 -0700 Cc: Stephen Kent , sidrops@ietf.org, Nick Hilliard Message-Id: <3D8E9852-0CBB-465A-82AE-12002F22EE70@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <1d35c5cd-7303-3ac5-49c8-87f478a61a4e@verizon.net> <2f64752b-40df-892a-5c31-d460f147c264@foobar.org> <6062D822-A075-43DC-B7E0-841F824BDF80@nlnetlabs.nl> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [WG ADOPTION] draft-va-sidrops-deploy-reconsidered-01 - ENDS 08/11/2019 (Aug 11) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 20:54:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E1716912-9F6D-4338-8E33-D14FD5AFC8F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 15 Sep 2019, at 13:46, Tim Bruijnzeels wrote: > RFC8630 Oops, this should, of course, be RFC8360 (Resource Public Key = Infrastructure (RPKI) Validation Reconsidered) not RFC8630 (Resource = Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) Trust Anchor Locator). Tim= --Apple-Mail=_E1716912-9F6D-4338-8E33-D14FD5AFC8F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On = 15 Sep 2019, at 13:46, Tim Bruijnzeels <tim@nlnetlabs.nl> = wrote:
RFC8630

Oops, this should, of course, be = RFC8360 (Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) Validation = Reconsidered) not RFC8630 (Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) = Trust Anchor Locator).

Tim
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--_000_0BBFA8C1A13D4CC9A72DABAE797F2E4Farrcuscom_-- From nobody Mon Sep 16 14:13:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E411200DB for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3UZHrjyMFMlI for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082E9120041 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i9yJV-00037H-9m; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:13:37 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:13:36 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Keyur Patel Cc: "sidrops@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0BBFA8C1-A13D-4CC9-A72D-ABAE797F2E4F@arrcus.com> References: <0BBFA8C1-A13D-4CC9-A72D-ABAE797F2E4F@arrcus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:13:42 -0000 "This document defines a new BGP non-transitive extended community to carry the BGPsec path validation state inside an autonomous system." given the one in RFC 8097, we need a new one because? randy From nobody Mon Sep 16 14:28:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481B31200B5 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnUZZ7lt1Txt for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0667120041 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i9yXc-00039Y-5K; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:28:12 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 14:28:11 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Keyur Patel Cc: "sidrops@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <0BBFA8C1-A13D-4CC9-A72D-ABAE797F2E4F@arrcus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:28:15 -0000 > "This document defines a new BGP non-transitive extended community to > carry the BGPsec path validation state inside an autonomous system." > > given the one in RFC 8097, we need a new one because? i have the same issue with draft-ietf-sidrops-validating-bgp-speaker-03 can we settle for one community? though i am not particularly enamoured with the extended one in 8097, at least we have it. randy From nobody Mon Sep 16 16:02:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9E712006D for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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smtp412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9b5600eb4c71bd61957fb3cb280bfafa; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:45:50 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.16.1.190220 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:45:47 -0700 From: Mehmet Adalier To: Keyur Patel , "sidrops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <82C84034-6918-43D4-B105-BB749F85C616@antarateknik.com> Thread-Topic: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3651662749_599321965" References: <82C84034-6918-43D4-B105-BB749F85C616.ref@antarateknik.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14303 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:45:57 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3651662749_599321965 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I have reviewed the draft in detail.=20 It proposes a very useful mechanism to make efficient local policy decision= s via the utilization of an embedded BGPsec validation state. =20 I support the adoption of the draft and volunteer to work with the authors = to take it to the next level. =20 Mehmet Adalier Antara Teknik LLC =20 From: Sidrops on behalf of Keyur Patel Date: Monday, September 16, 2019 at 12:12 PM To: "sidrops@ietf.org" Subject: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-valid= ation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) =20 Hi Folks, =20 The authors have requested SIDROPS working group adoption call of =E2=80=9CBGPsec= Validation State Signaling=E2=80=9D, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-borchert-s= idrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01. =20 Please send your comments to the list. This adoption call will conclude on = Sep 30 2019. =20 Regards, Chris & Keyur =20 _______________________________________________ Sidrops mailing list Sidrop= s@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops=20 --B_3651662749_599321965 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I have revi= ewed the draft in detail.

It proposes a very useful mechanism to make efficient = local policy decisions via the utilization of an embedded BGPsec validation = state.

 

I support the adoption of the draft and volunteer to work with the autho= rs to take it to the next level.

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Mehmet Adalier

Antara Teknik LLC<= /p>

 

From: = Sidrops <sidrops-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf= of Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>
Date: Monday, September 1= 6, 2019 at 12:12 PM
To: "sidrops@ietf.org" <sidrops@i= etf.org>
Subject: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert= -sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30)

 <= /span>

Hi Folks,
 

The authors have requested= SIDROPS working group adoption call of =E2=80=9C= BGPsec Validation State Signaling=E2=80=9D, = ;https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01.

 
Please send your =
comments to the list. This adoption call will conclude on Sep 30 2019.
 
Regards,
Chris & Keyur
 <=
/o:p>
_________________=
______________________________ Sidrops mailing list Sidrops@ietf.org https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops
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BpvFScpn8sRejDS+L/tkAaWnXZ5HS2nb77MaPIimRo6sRfLXd4qlo566yd/z8zHhe9uaT9COEOd7ewBznM2oqg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR0901MB4337 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:18:30 -0000 I have read the draft and will be happy to assist with review and discussio= n.=0A= I support adoption.=0A= =0A= Nits:=0A= Top of Section 3:=0A= s/The origin validation state/The BGPsec validation state/=0A= =0A= Section 4:=0A= s/router SHOULD apply the validation state=0A= "unverified" and perform BGPsec path validation ... /=0A= s/router SHOULD temporarily apply the validation state=0A= "unverified" and perform BGPsec path validation ... /=0A= =0A= s/as lined out in 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Sep 2019 19:32:23 +0000 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: "Montgomery, Douglas (Fed)" , Randy Bush , Keyur Patel CC: "sidrops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Sidrops] WG Adoption call for draft-borchert-sidrops-bgpsec-validation-signaling-01 (9/16-9/30) Thread-Index: AQHVbMKiBubipeZ/d0GMV+4UPfWKYKcuza8A///bQYCADJgpcA== Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 19:32:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0BBFA8C1-A13D-4CC9-A72D-ABAE797F2E4F@arrcus.com> <875A2007-9546-4CE3-AD32-15D4E7F7C29E@nist.gov> In-Reply-To: <875A2007-9546-4CE3-AD32-15D4E7F7C29E@nist.gov> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jheitz@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [128.107.241.182] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1cefefd0-69f7-43a4-dbdd-08d74125ec64 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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-4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ww4GGUYYXgQT; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95F5212001A; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:646d:de6:ead6:233] (unknown [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:646d:de6:ead6:233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F4775401D2; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:13:35 -0400 Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" , IDR , GROW WG , idr-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> To: Susan Hares X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 00:13:44 -0000 (I didn=E2=80=99t see any follow-up) but I suspect the intent was = adoption. I did notice after this a few more BGP announcements with AS_SET = occurring on a very regular basis. I suspect someone is doing some = research on it, perhaps someone reading this e-mail :-) - Jared > On Aug 7, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Susan Hares wrote: >=20 > Sriram:=20 >=20 > Are you asking for WG Adoption of this draft at this time or just = feedback? >=20 >=20 > Sue=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: GROW [mailto:grow-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sriram, = Kotikalapudi > (Fed) > Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 11:43 AM > To: IDR; GROW WG > Cc: idr-chairs@ietf.org; sidrops@ietf.org > Subject: [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback > requested >=20 > There was significant interest expressed during a SIDROPS presentation = in > Montreal and in the discussion that followed at the mike about = advancing the > following individual draft: > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumari-deprecate-as-set-confed-set-14 =20= > (standards track) =20 >=20 > The authors have revised and uploaded a new version (-14). > Your inputs/comments are welcome. In particular, please share any = specific > operational considerations/concerns you may have regarding this topic. >=20 > (Note: A BCP was published on this topics in 2011 -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6472 ) =20 >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > Sriram > _______________________________________________ > GROW mailing list > GROW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow >=20 > _______________________________________________ > GROW mailing list > GROW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow From nobody Wed Sep 25 17:17:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD0E120232; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:16:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Px6cpfUj_vSM; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3D11201C6; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 17:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:646d:de6:ead6:233] (unknown [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:646d:de6:ead6:233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4238C5401DC; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:16:45 -0400 Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" , IDR , GROW WG , idr-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <69F03192-CE2E-4126-910D-A7E3B3AA8848@puck.nether.net> References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> To: Susan Hares X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 00:16:51 -0000 (Obviously my search in e-mail today went afoul, I see it=E2=80=99s = adopted.. but like I said.. there=E2=80=99s a lot more AS_SETs that = appeared in BGP announcements since this was posted). - Jared > On Sep 25, 2019, at 8:13 PM, Jared Mauch = wrote: >=20 > (I didn=E2=80=99t see any follow-up) but I suspect the intent was = adoption. >=20 > I did notice after this a few more BGP announcements with AS_SET = occurring on a very regular basis. I suspect someone is doing some = research on it, perhaps someone reading this e-mail :-) >=20 > - Jared >=20 >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Susan Hares wrote: >>=20 >> Sriram:=20 >>=20 >> Are you asking for WG Adoption of this draft at this time or just = feedback? >>=20 >>=20 >> Sue=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: GROW [mailto:grow-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sriram, = Kotikalapudi >> (Fed) >> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 11:43 AM >> To: IDR; GROW WG >> Cc: idr-chairs@ietf.org; sidrops@ietf.org >> Subject: [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback >> requested >>=20 >> There was significant interest expressed during a SIDROPS = presentation in >> Montreal and in the discussion that followed at the mike about = advancing the >> following individual draft: >> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumari-deprecate-as-set-confed-set-14 =20= >> (standards track) =20 >>=20 >> The authors have revised and uploaded a new version (-14). >> Your inputs/comments are welcome. In particular, please share any = specific >> operational considerations/concerns you may have regarding this = topic. >>=20 >> (Note: A BCP was published on this topics in 2011 -- >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6472 ) =20 >>=20 >> Thank you. >>=20 >> Sriram >> _______________________________________________ >> GROW mailing list >> GROW@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> GROW mailing list >> GROW@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow From nobody Wed Sep 25 20:32:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD00120110; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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SCL:1; SRVR:BY5PR09MB3923; H:BY5PR09MB4565.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: tDHHPCFevPsWax1DYrYm/bNJCaadv+7CDwA5aBEgvQvIOfNMWk6DmAI80olc/QVKeeSoWSJCFe2UNiCa7m5YjF/f2tUdU1/HyFXSvAMpRyp1vnWoJr0bOixkE2UR1d8tKF4DFU6QWJDDalMhKCK3DYSamEc1utQSFcxx8ObWV93X8ahjtyRWGcAjT1u8XAmjX5qh2CBE9fr6SrMjHPGLZNX136IxaQ2vvorbQQAqYg5cq69+ucuSwZ0KPomTOyGllDQFb3y89z7F2J+hlZaGnq1xOjuQN092pIRGuITQhURfwOfoPOwCrSkJZxGBH+p4b21bZ3mzCxItuVwgCOVwMHRSQTy+JUTAAwm/frzBnWKNmTnu6XzcAHvCE95bXoMNZU765B7tRCO9srhB6OQSjlFrMykayMnxaIKTA8mxFy7zHaFCafTobK3S2fEFTHooPwq//CzjD+mKO0S1G6+Pag== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 95778c70-185f-4c7d-09e1-08d742322d45 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Sep 2019 03:32:36.9089 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0d3OinvQLmt2Oxg1rMDMcXI9xPgNv4fnWkcFu/qv7GaM+JxjfJTLhtIXSKDX4Eu88akvhrNyVycBWbJQrhECyA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR09MB3923 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 03:32:44 -0000 Jared,=0A= =0A= >(Obviously my search in e-mail today went afoul, I see it=92s adopted.. = =0A= =0A= Yes, the draft was adopted. You can see the discussion here:=0A= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/?gbt=3D1&q=3DWG%20adoption%20f= or%20draft-kumari-deprecate-as-set-confed-set =0A= =0A= One key point of the discussion was about the specification for action at = =0A= a receiver when an update with AS_SET or AS_CONFED_SET is received.=0A= The consensus seemed to be: treat as Withdraw.=0A= We'll soon update the draft to add that.=0A= =0A= You had observed in that thread:=0A= >We should also (in parallel) reach out to some of the networks =0A= >still using as_sets that are visible in the global BGP table. =0A= =0A= How do we do this? On NANOG, RIPE, etc. lists? Please advise.=0A= =0A= >I did notice after this a few more BGP announcements with AS_SET =0A= >occurring on a very regular basis. I suspect someone is doing some =0A= >research on it, perhaps someone reading this e-mail :-)=0A= =0A= The percentage of updates with AS_SET is observed to be about 0.05%.=0A= This has been in that ballpark for a long time.=0A= Are you computing the percentages in what you observe? =0A= Is it much different from 0.05%?=0A= =0A= Some recent measurements we have at NIST about this are as follow:=0A= (thanks to Lilia Hannachi - my colleague)=0A= =0A= ******* OREGON3 Collector (20190827.00) **************=0A= August 27, 2019=0A= =0A= IPV4 : {normal=3D16540660, AGGREGATOR=3D1718902, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D1086313= , AS_CONFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D8971, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0}=0A= IPV4 Total 18323517=0A= IPV4 Percentage=0A= normal : 90.27%=0A= AGGREGATOR : 9.38%=0A= ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 5.93%=0A= AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0%=0A= AS_SET : 0.05%=0A= AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0%=0A= Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV4) {1=3D7837, 2=3D876, 3=3D144, 4=3D5= 0, 5=3D53, 6=3D2, 7=3D9}=0A= Position of AS_SET (IPV4) {Beginning=3D8971, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0}=0A= Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV4) 248=0A= Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV4) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise=3D= 751278}=0A= no-export : 0.0%=0A= no-advertise : 4.95%=0A= ---------------------------------------------------------------=0A= IPV6 : {normal=3D67633, AGGREGATOR=3D8297, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D3548, AS_CONF= ED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D36, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0}=0A= IPV6 Total 76128=0A= IPV6 Percentage=0A= normal : 88.84%=0A= AGGREGATOR : 10.9%=0A= ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 4.66%=0A= AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0%=0A= AS_SET : 0.05%=0A= AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0%=0A= Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV6) {1=3D24, 2=3D8, 3=3D1, 4=3D2, 8=3D= 1}=0A= Position of AS_SET (IPV6) {Beginning=3D36, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0}=0A= Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV6) 0=0A= Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV6) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise=3D= 3765}=0A= no-export : 0.0%=0A= no-advertise : 4.95%=0A= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= =0A= =0A= ******* LINX Collector (20190827.00) **************=0A= August 27, 2019=0A= =0A= IPV4 : {normal=3D21697743, AGGREGATOR=3D2255396, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D1425305= , AS_CONFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D11353, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0}=0A= IPV4 Total 24036253=0A= IPV4 Percentage=0A= normal : 90.27%=0A= AGGREGATOR : 9.38%=0A= ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 5.93%=0A= AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0%=0A= AS_SET : 0.05%=0A= AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0%=0A= Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV4) {1=3D9890, 2=3D1130, 3=3D188, 4=3D= 64, 5=3D65, 6=3D2, 7=3D14}=0A= Position of AS_SET (IPV4) {Beginning=3D11353, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0}=0A= Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV4) 348=0A= Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV4) {no-export=3D6, no-advertise=3D= 0}=0A= no-export : 0.0%=0A= no-advertise : 0.0%=0A= *********************************=0A= IPV6 : {normal=3D69177, AGGREGATOR=3D8335, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D3543, AS_CONF= ED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D37, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0}=0A= IPV6 Total 77712=0A= IPV6 Percentage=0A= normal : 89.02%=0A= AGGREGATOR : 10.73%=0A= ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 4.56%=0A= AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0%=0A= AS_SET : 0.05%=0A= AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0%=0A= Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV6) {1=3D24, 2=3D9, 3=3D1, 4=3D2, 8=3D= 1}=0A= Position of AS_SET (IPV6) {Beginning=3D37, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0}=0A= Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV6) 0=0A= Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV6) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise=3D= 0}=0A= no-export : 0.0%=0A= no-advertise : 0.0%=0A= =0A= Sriram=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Sep 26 08:01:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E908120980; 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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:01:11 -0400 Cc: Susan Hares , IDR , GROW WG , "sidrops@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , Job Snijders , John Heasley , Jeff Haas Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <13CC250A-7ED0-4537-92A6-DCB7B0E553AB@puck.nether.net> References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> <69F03192-CE2E-4126-910D-A7E3B3AA8848@puck.nether.net> To: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:01:24 -0000 > On Sep 25, 2019, at 11:32 PM, Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed) = wrote: >=20 > Jared, >=20 >> (Obviously my search in e-mail today went afoul, I see it=E2=80=99s = adopted..=20 >=20 > Yes, the draft was adopted. You can see the discussion here: > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/?gbt=3D1&q=3DWG%20adoption%20= for%20draft-kumari-deprecate-as-set-confed-set =20 >=20 > One key point of the discussion was about the specification for action = at=20 > a receiver when an update with AS_SET or AS_CONFED_SET is received. > The consensus seemed to be: treat as Withdraw. > We'll soon update the draft to add that. >=20 > You had observed in that thread: >> We should also (in parallel) reach out to some of the networks=20 >> still using as_sets that are visible in the global BGP table. =20 >=20 > How do we do this? On NANOG, RIPE, etc. lists? Please advise. >=20 >> I did notice after this a few more BGP announcements with AS_SET=20 >> occurring on a very regular basis. I suspect someone is doing some=20= >> research on it, perhaps someone reading this e-mail :-) >=20 > The percentage of updates with AS_SET is observed to be about 0.05%. > This has been in that ballpark for a long time. > Are you computing the percentages in what you observe?=20 > Is it much different from 0.05%? >=20 > Some recent measurements we have at NIST about this are as follow: > (thanks to Lilia Hannachi - my colleague) Looking at RIPE RIS Live data, it seems to be very often. I rewrote my = parser to something lazy and the way the RIS Live message shows up in = the JSON is array of array which breaks my laziness. The majority seem = to be AS# 27738 Unparsable AS_PATH: /[196753, 3356, 2914, 12252, 23487, 27738, = [27738]]/196753 3356 2914 12252 23487 27738 [27738]/ {'type': = 'ris_message', 'data': {'timestamp': 1569509923.51, 'peer': = '217.29.67.51', 'peer_asn': '196753', 'id': = '217.29.67.51-1569509923.51-9791488', 'host': 'rrc10', 'type': 'UPDATE', = 'path': [196753, 3356, 2914, 12252, 23487, 27738, [27738]], 'community': = [[2914, 410], [2914, 1009], [2914, 2000], [2914, 3000], [3356, 2], = [3356, 22], [3356, 86], [3356, 505], [3356, 666], [3356, 2074], [17152, = 1]], 'origin': 'igp', 'aggregator': '23487:200.124.247.2', = 'announcements': [{'next_hop': '217.29.67.51', 'prefixes': = ['201.183.255.0/24']}]}} Unparsable AS_PATH: /[57381, 42708, 2914, 12252, 23487, 27738, = [27738]]/57381 42708 2914 12252 23487 27738 [27738]/ {'type': = 'ris_message', 'data': {'timestamp': 1569509924.6, 'peer': = '193.150.22.240', 'peer_asn': '57381', 'id': = '193.150.22.240-1569509924.6-9205783', 'host': 'rrc00', 'type': = 'UPDATE', 'path': [57381, 42708, 2914, 12252, 23487, 27738, [27738]], = 'community': [[2914, 410], [2914, 1009], [2914, 2000], [2914, 3000], = [42708, 200], [42708, 208]], 'origin': 'incomplete', 'aggregator': = '23487:200.124.247.2', 'announcements': [{'next_hop': '193.150.22.240', = 'prefixes': ['201.183.255.0/24']}]}} Unparsable AS_PATH: /[14061, 3356, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, 27738, [27738]]/14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 = 27738 27738 27738 [27738]/ {'type': 'ris_message', 'data': {'timestamp': = 1569509923.5, 'peer': '198.32.176.147', 'peer_asn': '14061', 'id': = '198.32.176.147-1569509923.5-38413780', 'host': 'rrc14', 'type': = 'UPDATE', 'path': [14061, 3356, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, [27738]], 'community': [[3356, 3], [3356, 22], [3356, 86], = [3356, 575], [3356, 666], [3356, 2011], [6762, 1], [6762, 92], [6762, = 10110], [14061, 402], [14061, 2000], [14061, 2005], [14061, 4000], = [14061, 4004]], 'origin': 'igp', 'aggregator': '23487:200.124.224.2', = 'announcements': [{'next_hop': '198.32.176.147', 'prefixes': = ['200.124.229.0/24', '201.183.252.0/24', '200.124.225.0/24', = '200.124.231.0/24', '200.124.227.0/24', '201.183.248.0/24', = '200.124.228.0/24', '200.124.230.0/24', '201.183.243.0/24']}]}} Unparsable AS_PATH: /[49605, 9002, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, 27738, [27738]]/49605 9002 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 = 27738 27738 27738 [27738]/ {'type': 'ris_message', 'data': {'timestamp': = 1569509924.54, 'peer': '91.206.52.102', 'peer_asn': '49605', 'id': = '91.206.52.102-1569509924.54-9415897', 'host': 'rrc20', 'type': = 'UPDATE', 'path': [49605, 9002, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, [27738]], 'community': [[9002, 9002], [9002, 64615], = [49605, 9002]], 'origin': 'igp', 'aggregator': '23487:200.124.224.2', = 'announcements': [{'next_hop': '91.206.52.102', 'prefixes': = ['200.124.230.0/24', '201.183.248.0/24', '200.124.227.0/24', = '200.124.231.0/24', '200.124.226.0/24', '200.124.229.0/24', = '201.183.252.0/24', '201.183.243.0/24', '200.124.225.0/24', = '200.124.224.0/24', '200.124.228.0/24']}]}} Unparsable AS_PATH: /[60501, 196753, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, 27738, [27738]]/60501 196753 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 = 27738 27738 27738 [27738]/ {'type': 'ris_message', 'data': {'timestamp': = 1569509924.52, 'peer': '217.29.66.138', 'peer_asn': '60501', 'id': = '217.29.66.138-1569509924.52-24972855', 'host': 'rrc10', 'type': = 'UPDATE', 'path': [60501, 196753, 6762, 23487, 27738, 27738, 27738, = 27738, 27738, 27738, [27738]], 'community': [[6762, 1], [6762, 31], = [6762, 40], [6762, 10110], [17152, 1]], 'origin': 'igp', 'aggregator': = '23487:200.124.224.2', 'announcements': [{'next_hop': '217.29.66.138', = 'prefixes': ['201.183.252.0/24', '200.124.227.0/24', '200.124.230.0/24', = '201.183.243.0/24', '200.124.225.0/24', '200.124.229.0/24', = '200.124.228.0/24', '200.124.231.0/24', '201.183.248.0/24']}]}} From nobody Thu Sep 26 15:44:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CF5120072 for ; 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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:44:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> <69F03192-CE2E-4126-910D-A7E3B3AA8848@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:43:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" Cc: Jared Mauch , Susan Hares , IDR , GROW WG , "sidrops@ietf.org" , Job Snijders , john heasley , Jeffrey Haas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 22:44:21 -0000 On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 11:32 PM Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed) wrote: > > Jared, > > >(Obviously my search in e-mail today went afoul, I see it=E2=80=99s adop= ted.. > > Yes, the draft was adopted. You can see the discussion here: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/?gbt=3D1&q=3DWG%20adoption%2= 0for%20draft-kumari-deprecate-as-set-confed-set > > One key point of the discussion was about the specification for action at > a receiver when an update with AS_SET or AS_CONFED_SET is received. > The consensus seemed to be: treat as Withdraw. > We'll soon update the draft to add that. > > You had observed in that thread: > >We should also (in parallel) reach out to some of the networks > >still using as_sets that are visible in the global BGP table. > > How do we do this? On NANOG, RIPE, etc. lists? Please advise. > > >I did notice after this a few more BGP announcements with AS_SET > >occurring on a very regular basis. I suspect someone is doing some > >research on it, perhaps someone reading this e-mail :-) > > The percentage of updates with AS_SET is observed to be about 0.05%. > This has been in that ballpark for a long time. > Are you computing the percentages in what you observe? > Is it much different from 0.05%? > > Some recent measurements we have at NIST about this are as follow: > (thanks to Lilia Hannachi - my colleague) > This is nice, but what would make it more useful would be if it also reported if there are *useful* AS_SETS / if the AS_SET means anything. For example, from Jared's email below: AS path: 14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 {27738} -- the 27738 AS already shows up as a non-AS_SET in the path. I've also seen a number of instances where the AS_SET contains many repeated instances, e.g: AS path: 6939 3356 42020 39010 {39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275} -- this doesn't seem to actually mean anything... Looking at the top few AS paths with AS_SETs I see: 28 12127 27 27738 24 11139 17 23383 13 12849 AS12127 - Telefonica Moviles El Salvador S.A. de C.V., SV (these are all behind AS263783 - Telefonica Moviles El Salvador S.A. de C.V., SV ) AS27738 - Ecuadortelecom S.A., EC AS11139 - CWC-ROC-11139 - Cable & Wireless Dominica, DM AS23383 - METRORED S.A. DE C.V., HN (this also seems to provide transit to AS267737? (advertising 45.168.172.0/24)) AS12849 HOTNET-IL AMS-IX Admin LAN, IL W > ******* OREGON3 Collector (20190827.00) ************** > August 27, 2019 > > IPV4 : {normal=3D16540660, AGGREGATOR=3D1718902, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D10863= 13, AS_CONFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D8971, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0} > IPV4 Total 18323517 > IPV4 Percentage > normal : 90.27% > AGGREGATOR : 9.38% > ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 5.93% > AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0% > AS_SET : 0.05% > AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0% > Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV4) {1=3D7837, 2=3D876, 3=3D144, 4= =3D50, 5=3D53, 6=3D2, 7=3D9} > Position of AS_SET (IPV4) {Beginning=3D8971, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0} > Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV4) 248 > Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV4) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise= =3D751278} > no-export : 0.0% > no-advertise : 4.95% > --------------------------------------------------------------- > IPV6 : {normal=3D67633, AGGREGATOR=3D8297, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D3548, AS_CO= NFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D36, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0} > IPV6 Total 76128 > IPV6 Percentage > normal : 88.84% > AGGREGATOR : 10.9% > ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 4.66% > AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0% > AS_SET : 0.05% > AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0% > Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV6) {1=3D24, 2=3D8, 3=3D1, 4=3D2, 8= =3D1} > Position of AS_SET (IPV6) {Beginning=3D36, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0} > Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV6) 0 > Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV6) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise= =3D3765} > no-export : 0.0% > no-advertise : 4.95% > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > ******* LINX Collector (20190827.00) ************** > August 27, 2019 > > IPV4 : {normal=3D21697743, AGGREGATOR=3D2255396, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D14253= 05, AS_CONFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D11353, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0} > IPV4 Total 24036253 > IPV4 Percentage > normal : 90.27% > AGGREGATOR : 9.38% > ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 5.93% > AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0% > AS_SET : 0.05% > AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0% > Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV4) {1=3D9890, 2=3D1130, 3=3D188, 4= =3D64, 5=3D65, 6=3D2, 7=3D14} > Position of AS_SET (IPV4) {Beginning=3D11353, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0} > Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV4) 348 > Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV4) {no-export=3D6, no-advertise= =3D0} > no-export : 0.0% > no-advertise : 0.0% > ********************************* > IPV6 : {normal=3D69177, AGGREGATOR=3D8335, ATOMIC_AGGREGATE=3D3543, AS_CO= NFED_SET=3D0, AS_SET=3D37, AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE=3D0} > IPV6 Total 77712 > IPV6 Percentage > normal : 89.02% > AGGREGATOR : 10.73% > ATOMIC_AGGREGATE : 4.56% > AS_CONFED_SET : 0.0% > AS_SET : 0.05% > AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE : 0.0% > Number of ASs in the AS_SET Paths (IPV6) {1=3D24, 2=3D9, 3=3D1, 4=3D2, 8= =3D1} > Position of AS_SET (IPV6) {Beginning=3D37, Middle=3D0, Left_Most=3D0} > Number of AS_SET with Reserver ASes (IPV6) 0 > Number of no-export and no-advertise (IPV6) {no-export=3D0, no-advertise= =3D0} > no-export : 0.0% > no-advertise : 0.0% > > Sriram > > > > > > > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Sep 26 19:52:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF08120131; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id re8UggKM3h-k; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979CC12001A; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dresden.attlocal.net (99-59-193-67.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net [99.59.193.67]) by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8CEAB1E2D3; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 22:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FCC3C8AC-740D-4476-AA47-10BC074E7A19" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Jeffrey Haas In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 22:52:19 -0400 Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" , Jared Mauch , Sue Hares , IDR , GROW WG , "sidrops@ietf.org" , Job Snijders , John Heasley Message-Id: References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> <69F03192-CE2E-4126-910D-A7E3B3AA8848@puck.nether.net> To: Warren Kumari X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:52:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FCC3C8AC-740D-4476-AA47-10BC074E7A19 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:43 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 > This is nice, but what would make it more useful would be if it also > reported if there are *useful* AS_SETS / if the AS_SET means anything. >=20 > For example, from Jared's email below: > AS path: 14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 > {27738} -- the 27738 AS already shows up as a non-AS_SET in the path. This one is on the buggy end of things, but still reasonably valid. It = smells like something that passed through remove-private of some flavor. >=20 > I've also seen a number of instances where the AS_SET contains many > repeated instances, e.g: > AS path: 6939 3356 42020 39010 {39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 > 39275 39275 39275 39275} -- this doesn't seem to actually mean > anything... This one seems very buggy. The protocol still knows what to do with it. It'd be interesting to find out what code these folk are running. = Hopefully not one of my bugs. :-) -- Jeff --Apple-Mail=_FCC3C8AC-740D-4476-AA47-10BC074E7A19 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:43 PM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> = wrote:

This is nice, but what would make it more useful would be if = it also
reported if = there are *useful* AS_SETS / if the AS_SET means anything.

For example, from Jared's email = below:
AS path: =  14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 = 27738
{27738} -- = the 27738 AS already shows up as a non-AS_SET in the path.

This one is on = the buggy end of things, but still reasonably valid.  It smells = like something that passed through remove-private of some = flavor.


I've also = seen a number of instances where the AS_SET contains many
repeated instances, = e.g:
AS path: 6939 = 3356 42020 39010 {39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275
39275 39275 39275 39275} -- this = doesn't seem to actually mean
anything...

This one seems very buggy.  The protocol still = knows what to do with it.

It'd be = interesting to find out what code these folk are running. Hopefully not = one of my bugs. :-)

-- = Jeff

= --Apple-Mail=_FCC3C8AC-740D-4476-AA47-10BC074E7A19-- From nobody Fri Sep 27 05:49:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D61A120812 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lz7oJgzXJjeJ for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2D69120813 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id q203so1838439qke.1 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:49:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yPFgfIF7McNbhVdpT0U3z1Q0gExJzTWhJPgYhC4XwSo=; b=mqCEpPMAxR+cB4sQBXCjW8xAi1c0A41RH12sb8AnNWnUOdcZbwfjnBnGixdJRwiL+J IDrVKwb1L0O4f8fnruLECjxvrEO1OowhSbH3nQZ4sLw/7diZcQimKccjpico0RMoLlz4 uCVJyuHodcey++jDLmGaa0Tsrpb9/iA1D1TEundsqTQr/8rMCAsb05m+7CorB6aRmWVr WSg1GFQIr4Ide/DlFCgc9S/Q3i0N1Wu3c0LixrURC3C5WJ9+Dy7WJ2WWwqKh3elb8YXP Am6GIkG7TYFvBu/5mDdRKWniCs7645cFOue8brrab4/AlSZWZks7ki6b5TCBGe2uyMIQ tSqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yPFgfIF7McNbhVdpT0U3z1Q0gExJzTWhJPgYhC4XwSo=; b=YrKDtRQXKhFUFZR4leBxz/GR4HMh+3jTsOPTfssuldT/Ebsgy+oIAjkjZMGMWut/kg ORtRF391wqHVgrwmkKWQg/J6S8S77aY7Tj3HFfoLAOVvdaDNXBHSS+IyJbOmYBrGRwPP JlXNZHB8qPVeTAHsCY0Ee6mJXcozx0KsjJTdzdSwW0pTtnQ/BqCh+cFjT1X6Trsa/X6h R8uTCX4huSN4uRDV3HuBSJHlCtTnj0Za6MToMazZeyWIvbAkz8mM6ardIYj8IP099Eqa 5Fgp6XwapQDOPkIqltkOFAelgpz8/zcS8Dvial1g9ocHTUQBx0IRdtWuIoNjSMpzxzbG m6mA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWeJzwxQ03K2R7pJvLHaYAx0zEDXjntCWx3x3dX5A8kyuQnyDEr mVKSmvZ5M+2HJUx70JOSSeJX+L65W/tlzYZTYebdFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMbl1Dhqk8x5cj1IgbhhgPY4bRw8yXKSp2EE3e6ipvjOLnb29pmMMmH4w9VfGP/K/gldK42f/QwC5iXQa8IB0= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a849:: with SMTP id r70mr4313776qke.37.1569588578216; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:49:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01c201d54d3c$74375ee0$5ca61ca0$@ndzh.com> <69F03192-CE2E-4126-910D-A7E3B3AA8848@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 08:49:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)" , Jared Mauch , Sue Hares , IDR , GROW WG , "sidrops@ietf.org" , Job Snijders , John Heasley Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 12:49:42 -0000 On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 10:52 PM Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > > > On Sep 26, 2019, at 6:43 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: > > This is nice, but what would make it more useful would be if it also > reported if there are *useful* AS_SETS / if the AS_SET means anything. > > For example, from Jared's email below: > AS path: 14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 > {27738} -- the 27738 AS already shows up as a non-AS_SET in the path. > > > This one is on the buggy end of things, but still reasonably valid. It smells like something that passed through remove-private of some flavor. Yes, it is valid, but it doesn't "mean" anything more than AS path: 14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 - I cannot see a scenario where the lack of {} causes loop detection or anything else to fail. I *guess* it's possible that there was something like ... 27738 65533 { 27738 65534 }. The { 27738 65534 } is "interesting" to 65533, and remote-private could have removed both 65533 and 65534. Ugh, aggregation for others is ugly (yes, I know, but...) > > > I've also seen a number of instances where the AS_SET contains many > repeated instances, e.g: > AS path: 6939 3356 42020 39010 {39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 > 39275 39275 39275 39275} -- this doesn't seem to actually mean > anything... > > > This one seems very buggy. The protocol still knows what to do with it. > > It'd be interesting to find out what code these folk are running. Hopefully not one of my bugs. :-) They are all your bugs, Jeff :-) W > > -- Jeff > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Fri Sep 27 06:58:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB30E120043; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 06:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nist.gov Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MOJMmiD9y62t; 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SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR0901MB3250; H:BL0PR0901MB4563.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: TI1hWJl3iGdOm2/HfY2wGhUQphBE8LMbrOXXMPOqnoSjl4aKp7pq16jNkEc9yS5XZd4xyEEhgDToWGGbcbRQcUbAkJX/g352R2/VQLuJANqTVWB95M74UneLjtUielruuy/1O7ruaA+nzLBYXehvIPERx7CEUXqlZ9zCyJ3yDGEw0n2FldJW6H3dDxpHsCM0sKWkABSpCxs4IUmU/7KtsU4PY0YmxPYDH0w6v2qw1dkOLEv6o3jB/NDlv3wSBp66Ruu8X5j+qtWAbtxi4NCZbi/KZ9XDhdVjEwVrgGxH7r/rCvnd9tjmtH13MR4TS3Au+wuGrMF0hsQtk6EaN18JxGX414z8KesrDS3dWwb+bimj83yZQ0tjp51b31zWuUQRbmt5UkGISgpPm3JJ8ujTUx4HlXXb6uoudNyc+Efv3qzqusq5X3vVmvHObqV8E/pcevfrZ+KnDMvBLQKt5iQ/MQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21e01040-1db6-449a-89cc-08d74352bcee X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Sep 2019 13:58:13.1502 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: NmjcBPzLtPDKzaS4r3xNMxzutNO2wZhAOPfhkYHM/eCbXoMzNObB+Iit35Gx48jVbYu9Qpp+5gJeYcmlDlJs5Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR0901MB3250 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [GROW] Deprecation of AS_SET and AS_CONFED_SET -- feedback requested X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 13:58:19 -0000 Warren,=0A= =0A= Thanks for the additional data/suggestions. Comments below.=0A= =0A= .....=0A= >> Some recent measurements we have at NIST about this are as follow:=0A= >> (thanks to Lilia Hannachi - my colleague)=0A= >>=0A= >=0A= >This is nice, but what would make it more useful would be if it also=0A= >reported if there are *useful* AS_SETS / if the AS_SET means anything.=0A= >=0A= >For example, from Jared's email below:=0A= >AS path: 14061 3356 6762 23487 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738 27738=0A= >{27738} -- the 27738 AS already shows up as a non-AS_SET in the path.=0A= >=0A= >I've also seen a number of instances where the AS_SET contains many=0A= >repeated instances, e.g:=0A= >AS path: 6939 3356 42020 39010 {39275 39275 39275 39275 39275 39275=0A= >39275 39275 39275 39275} -- this doesn't seem to actually mean=0A= >anything...=0A= >=0A= >Looking at the top few AS paths with AS_SETs I see:=0A= > 28 12127=0A= > 27 27738=0A= > 24 11139=0A= > 17 23383=0A= > 13 12849=0A= >=0A= >AS12127 - Telefonica Moviles El Salvador S.A. de C.V., SV (these are=0A= >all behind AS263783 - Telefonica Moviles El Salvador S.A. de C.V., SV=0A= >)=0A= >AS27738 - Ecuadortelecom S.A., EC=0A= >AS11139 - CWC-ROC-11139 - Cable & Wireless Dominica, DM=0A= >AS23383 - METRORED S.A. DE C.V., HN (this also seems to provide=0A= >transit to AS267737? (advertising 45.168.172.0/24))=0A= >AS12849 HOTNET-IL AMS-IX Admin LAN, IL=0A= ....=0A= =0A= Interesting! We can extend our analysis at NIST to examine these things as = needed.=0A= In the data that I shared earlier, another thing you might have noticed=0A= is that there are ~ 350 instances where special purpose ASNs occur in AS_SE= Ts.=0A= An earlier study we did and presented at IETF is here:=0A= https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/itl/antd/AS_SET_Aggregat= or_Stats-2.pdf =0A= There we noticed other strange things:=0A= In some cases, AS in the AGGREGATOR doesn't match the right most AS in the = AS_PATH=0A= that follows the AS_SET. So AGGREGATOR is different from the AS that create= d the AS_SET! Hmm..! =0A= In the slides, we also reported numbers on private ASNs seen in AS_SETs.=0A= =0A= Sriram =0A= =0A= =0A= =