From nobody Sat Apr 2 06:21:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205C43A0D09 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2022 06:21:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4uw7FnvpEJhx for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2022 06:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [46.182.8.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2B933A0CFC for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2022 06:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crumpet.local (unknown [89.101.70.74]) by mail.netability.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA0B59CC42; Sat, 2 Apr 2022 14:21:01 +0100 (IST) To: Randy Bush Cc: SIDR Operations WG References: From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 14:20:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.54 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2022 13:21:10 -0000 Randy Bush wrote on 31/03/2022 20:46: > could we do a wglc on draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr? This would be good Nick From nobody Mon Apr 4 11:51:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57993A1203; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 11:50:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sidrops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sidrops@ietf.org Message-ID: <164909825967.8707.6712963424892860786@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 11:50:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05.txt X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 18:51:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the SIDR Operations WG of the IETF. Title : The I in RPKI does not stand for Identity Authors : Randy Bush Russ Housley Filename : draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2022-04-04 Abstract: There is a false notion that Internet Number Resources (INRs) in the RPKI can be associated with the real-world identity of the 'owner' of an INR. This document attempts to put that notion to rest. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Apr 4 12:03:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50053A1604 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:03:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeeREMs3YO3g for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C38963A1334 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nbRyN-000BT7-Bw for sidrops@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:02:43 +0000 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 12:02:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: sidrops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <164909825967.8707.6712963424892860786@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <164909825967.8707.6712963424892860786@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05.txt X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:03:18 -0000 -05 is the result of edits from ietf last call randy From nobody Wed Apr 6 10:02:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907943A1A78 for ; 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Wed, 06 Apr 2022 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> From: Christopher Morrow Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Randy Bush , SIDR Operations WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a801605dbff54bb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 17:02:45 -0000 --0000000000002a801605dbff54bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Was there some code already that implements the no -route-refresh bits you want? (do we know the implications of doing this at scale?) On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 9:21 AM Nick Hilliard wrote: > Randy Bush wrote on 31/03/2022 20:46: > > could we do a wglc on draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr? > > This would be good > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > Sidrops mailing list > Sidrops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops > --0000000000002a801605dbff54bb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Was there some code already that implements the no -route-= refresh bits you want?
(do we know the implications of doing this at sca= le?)

On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 9:21 AM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Randy Bush wrote on 31/03/2022 20:46:
> could we do a wglc on draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr?

This would be good

Nick

_______________________________________________
Sidrops mailing list
Sidrops@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidrops
--0000000000002a801605dbff54bb-- From nobody Wed Apr 6 10:28:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9422D3A1A77 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 10:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aQ2oI1Vh4Wfo for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 10:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DAF53A0C4A for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 10:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nc9SV-000LKV-FF; Wed, 06 Apr 2022 17:28:43 +0000 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 10:28:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Christopher Morrow Cc: Nick Hilliard , SIDR Operations WG In-Reply-To: References: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 17:28:52 -0000 > Was there some code already that implements the no -route-refresh bits you > want? ios/xr. jakob did it as soon as he saw the draft. > (do we know the implications of doing this at scale?) we have seen the implications of not doing this at scale. ask mark tinka, who was depeered by at&t. as to implications of deploying, you may find section 5. Operational Recommendations helpful. randy From nobody Wed Apr 6 21:56:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E16A3A0D65; Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:56:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Murray Kucherawy Message-ID: <164930737710.17649.10181082852380265521@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 21:56:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 04:56:18 -0000 Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/ for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BCP doesn't seem appropriate, but I wish there was a stronger document status we could give this. In Section 2: If it tried to do so, aside from the liability, it would end in a world of complexity with no proof of termination, as X.400 learned. Is there a reference describing the X.400 lesson that could be included here? Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) provide INR to real-world identity mapping through whois and similar services. They claim to be authoritative, at least for the INRs which they allocate. I think "WHOIS" is properly (or at least traditionally) in all-caps. From nobody Thu Apr 7 06:44:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A083A0BA9 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 06:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fastly.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6-1CchZqnTt for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DE0E3A0B48 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id b24so6433480edu.10 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastly.com; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=ANLTO0/K46oKnf6PN68UL2TmO4CNU02NuGJM0UWzW08=; b=ajAPX+qRPn9tg89LpaUAQrzUUE+7+JKSb2zJ+nDBv6C1shGe9fuIe907rrBEUPVIR7 KjJxINz28gXwME6trtq4ToNB7+QDMnXaPzKQBfWuYZKNSc35LaiRq9GBQCuBIWz+U157 rRVCovGWevXJnuiVKeFVMtWoYqlozRm9jtH8o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=ANLTO0/K46oKnf6PN68UL2TmO4CNU02NuGJM0UWzW08=; b=KHaZeolyWWLAJyUxxQHJ36rGmYVkK39E6ySj92/ANrFwKDcnfAyEy3dsW/zlbjbnDw 8iuXpiVLf7sK8X33b8Fdpxo87XgKpGhOD6o7k+U56io+YAdEXy5M7id78NLBCU0GteuF qSMnMuvqhulKVPTR0xppa6A7gW1QytLdyVQK/1nt8PbHwDUiFf88hcsUVN0aS9pj6AH3 a1msDIS5e9sonAjihRB2p+djSpWGM1tpRQzmUEt/RHuoPtUXboyUgmUG5DJiorik/1LL 8PH3uQYNO0bpBVJR5oawJqKScpQv6L+b32GD0hEK2wGpo6tUbvkj4hdnJ4gQR5itSlji LM5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531nOUrV6+ZzmVzI773ZHtpYVq4SbV0KSdMozN4U4cNdVSw5ktur 7yB1pjjM9M+CglD1LFnjeDzuog== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBsi4Y1wCY3RqPLvx8OYaUDG5H6+Ol0IfhgDeTix9DN/bT2kSYBu2JoFVzYSdb0f9Z5HnxzQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1a33:b0:41c:bfc1:957c with SMTP id be19-20020a0564021a3300b0041cbfc1957cmr14245673edb.354.1649339066561; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 06:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snel ([2a10:3781:276:2:16f6:d8ff:fe47:2eb7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z2-20020a17090674c200b006e13403964asm7718409ejl.77.2022.04.07.06.44.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 07 Apr 2022 06:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:44:24 +0200 From: Job Snijders To: Randy Bush Cc: Christopher Morrow , SIDR Operations WG , Nick Hilliard Message-ID: References: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 13:44:34 -0000 Hi all, I'd like to start off by offering my compliments to the creators of this useful concept. I also appreciate the generosity of making the specification available through the IETF process rather than the US patent office! :-) As this Internet-Draft doesn't have an "interopability aspect", rather, it describes an implementation aspect not visible to external parties, building an interop matrix doesn't seem applicable. On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 10:28:42AM -0700, Randy Bush wrote: > > Was there some code already that implements the no -route-refresh > > bits you want? > > ios/xr. jakob did it as soon as he saw the draft. Small request for clarification: you mean IOS XR and vanilla IOS? Or IOS XE? > > (do we know the implications of doing this at scale?) > > we have seen the implications of not doing this at scale. ask mark > tinka, who was depeered by at&t. Agreed on this being a problem at scale. At a previous employer we also ended up inadvertently imposing significant strain on neighboring BGP networks by virtue of sending out ROUTE REFRESH messages more often than strictly needed. We received various complaints from EBGP peers because of this. The situation was somewhat ameliorated by running the validation process three times an hour (rather than every minute, or even every 10 minutes), but utimately the solution was to instantiate a fully populated Adj-RIB-In for each EBGP peer. As the I-D mentions, enabling 'soft-reconfiguration inbound always' (or its equivalent) can pose a challenge in resource constrained environments. Other than some editorial polishing, I think this draft is good to proceed in the publication pipeline. Kind regards, Job From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:12:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747283A10E5 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToBmZI7Xd9PJ for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082DA3A10E2 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id o18so1460884qtk.7 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 10:12:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pao/WCKvjRyWJ2Q/LhtHaSyu5t5/8ou4jFyDiZGZx6c=; b=bMUte9UMSh1RlLW7nFMFzGTlA3G7X/5VNj//l9JBjIAuhXUJVboKME6zrRZuOvhw/K HAQ7/mjJo3FmFT+IpBDfwVPnIvj/HaDY2LnhYjlTcIqzxBDN/SfjRDLG+H68CP9IrTHU 0p4BXGrRQc2vtjVzLbCiBz3AdMjL2cc/+yAV9T2hHlU2NQnCxxr9wEVcqK179hUCQEgk cT4xs3oLGRDWzqWEifdWRguOyc3Gan7oA9H1dqRER3UuRXzDCn+LRqigI3wHPnu7asWi RGcJ7911Fhoa1C6Zx5VoO9CDZXy/2h5r1UJxVCUpVZYkRxQMQ6VEh6O5M3xsQhHFHEFj 2fMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pao/WCKvjRyWJ2Q/LhtHaSyu5t5/8ou4jFyDiZGZx6c=; b=4lUz7gzUYDeuxwbBY2wP5zImVNEmCnDdwqXuGCnLH/SKHZQZDkvQF6YXmFfO872cNB fc+Zw297lHCxADxPYDlSyaBNZ2vf1tzliViWRxBCZTrIxQbjtaRuEaVkieBKQ5fbjTDl pbJREHRbOeVW/XBEqz6qaInbOFQCrixVNdPWuR/papAkq7fldb6SRIV83PqU5gWMuQL9 gAeNzhx9DeufZxnDib46f19eHfDT//8Mdm3I3DOlVINTvvg1juMluKBzG7E7dwDqfDP4 LPvImi0RVNITDVFK7hDHrMgaKnXXTqdN1uS7y5cmq7SwSALwRSPp81FzHu77EbkQuoyl Vptg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Jd8LXIAGsQp9l2KoB5TXfN7805hMIcqGKjnqq7SPEvJ5mPA9k 84WyGfKgnhDFy6RMdmYHY+5VOP7CSwj7n8rTIU8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHp1knyMoGhbo6DoQBK0Tlyh06tUZnBU8m3YkWFvYY/XNMLsdwh8TEx5R2uiavMmZOTSAJrNDJeyz8/Dsi4VU= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7e85:0:b0:2eb:8eb4:31b2 with SMTP id w5-20020ac87e85000000b002eb8eb431b2mr12836695qtj.14.1649351559673; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 10:12:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163972158278.17164.7845548419791447965@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Christopher Morrow Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:12:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Christopher Morrow , SIDR Operations WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2f92805dc139566" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidrops-signed-tal-08.txt X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:12:46 -0000 --000000000000d2f92805dc139566 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Since tom was ill for the meeting, maybe an update on list is in order? On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 10:07 PM Tom Harrison wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 01:15:24PM -0500, Christopher Morrow wrote: > > is this draft ready for WGLC authors? > > No, there is still more work to be done here (planning to discuss at > the next meeting). > > -Tom > --000000000000d2f92805dc139566 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since tom was ill for the meeting, maybe an update on list= is in order?

On Sun, Feb 13, 2022 at 10:07 PM Tom Harrison <tomh@apnic.net> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 01:15:24PM -050= 0, Christopher Morrow wrote:
> is this draft ready for WGLC authors?

No, there is still more work to be done here (planning to discuss at
the next meeting).

-Tom
--000000000000d2f92805dc139566-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 10:57:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293043A10D9; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:57:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ry51H6pXht1o; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C2F23A119D; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1ncWNx-000Ot9-D1; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:57:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 10:57:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker Cc: "The IESG" , draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net In-Reply-To: <164930737710.17649.10181082852380265521@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <164930737710.17649.10181082852380265521@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 17:57:45 -0000 hi murray, thanks for the review > BCP doesn't seem appropriate, but I wish there was a stronger document > status we could give this. the whack-a-mole stream? :) all in all, it's sad that this document is needed. but it has been shown to be. > If it tried to do so, aside from the liability, it would end in a > world of complexity with no proof of termination, as X.400 learned. > > Is there a reference describing the X.400 lesson that could be > included here? i am not aware of a good cite for the 1992 kobe meeting but, i take your point. a knowledge of history is required. might be easiest to drop the ref to X.400. whatcha think? and i suspect that non-cs folk will not get 'proof of termination'. hmmm. > Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) provide > INR to real-world identity mapping through whois and similar > services. They claim to be authoritative, at least for the INRs > which they allocate. > > I think "WHOIS" is properly (or at least traditionally) in all-caps. i am inclined to lean on the rfced more than seems to be the current fashion in the iesg. how about Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) provide INR to real-world identity mapping through WHOIS, [RFC3912], and similar services. They claim to be authoritative, at least for the INRs which they allocate. thanks again. randy From nobody Thu Apr 7 13:00:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7290E3A15FD for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:00:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bAPd341p6r1V for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E42E83A15F0 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id o18so1853492qtk.7 for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IgyGDGSF/g6NHoAASK9+le146DQKINTDtytJ173dcxI=; b=SucpBPI1AEMQ5RhCrFPIofAwOrAyQnRf07qj6CjSKH0d5nAr2lB1kj2PMbpfI7lwD5 U/aucu86tZhcwJbFcjzvBw7RScUxdGu5U6CcRtUBYc33G7IhIMs8iMyZWIlBkcRaqnmz BXc8D0alqANOYp8I1NXq4YIZ7FyF85FbsXpzUvr0kKu6CKxkkOjHYVVnDN0S73m2XNj5 MzUay40y40voBbJedHLhxyeH6CmDT7Vl3TZv6bfBhfRKJ/V0XOwcrhxcEukfDaXOy4xU XNU5tAXmd6D9Ozs9GRTtUYJMpPe2Adp9RvRs3Hg4TINXNRvSW0wp54tf+pesasSwHpAB 7dqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IgyGDGSF/g6NHoAASK9+le146DQKINTDtytJ173dcxI=; b=ZMaxcNrApNmZ8TXIRthWx466zYesm9k/bexg6FH9j99mIT9fby+Rievv55fDdUnaOG 9BaS5+cBJF8YPJrEfL+Vs88Ubq0Kqw4V9GBNH+R/n6p/gRBEWhZWb0TLi5M/uvB6BXjS hrhUNIHzApJgNlii/kUCjW/TWQl0Klc5hBpD7l1c2HPG95L2px5hwIcL1DKkeCPLflfJ yprfQEFWHT76w0pVaxGXl+oG8A6d/86tiJcS29rZOEhboc++AySn/lDuFsjPgUZNY7nM IuOyu0jKjVE0gfX+9k/OQIJQ0x5C3rRqnnCFkdDj7CH2or40xdgHrin8v0jRKHdsT4G7 GLlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ERckEFjx9pRPHIvPdaAwvUuR/AH4mTfoQoYrqgUCsvIAJwZ22 MK/HIEgzB++Khb2QuHzXtQufnrnylmLY+OmvS+c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5bC6ITs956BbzwhtDkOsPRwZDbFhzi4BBTDKrcYraHF5gC/2f9zjHIpceRZqHryhis33xe5p0Vb9KhkUZUzA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7dd1:0:b0:2e0:6fe1:189b with SMTP id c17-20020ac87dd1000000b002e06fe1189bmr13632669qte.629.1649361651545; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 13:00:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2b750924-10c8-19e0-5c6e-9d4cd60e32a7@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Christopher Morrow Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:00:40 -0400 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: Nick Hilliard , SIDR Operations WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058ba4805dc15ef1b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 20:00:58 -0000 --00000000000058ba4805dc15ef1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" (catching back up) On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 1:28 PM Randy Bush wrote: > > Was there some code already that implements the no -route-refresh bits > you > > want? > > ios/xr. jakob did it as soon as he saw the draft. > > > (do we know the implications of doing this at scale?) > > we have seen the implications of not doing this at scale. ask mark > tinka, who was depeered by at&t. > > It also seems that Arrcus has implemented this feature in their stack. thanks to them for replying :) > as to implications of deploying, you may find section 5. Operational > Recommendations helpful. > > randy > --00000000000058ba4805dc15ef1b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(catching back up)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at = 1:28 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com&g= t; wrote:
> W= as there some code already that implements the no -route-refresh bits you > want?

ios/xr.=C2=A0 jakob did it as soon as he saw the draft.

> (do we know the implications of doing this at scale?)

we have seen the implications of not doing this at scale.=C2=A0 ask mark tinka, who was depeered by at&t.


It also seems that Arrcus has implemen= ted this feature in their stack.
thanks to them for replying :)
=C2=A0
as to implications of deploying, you may find section 5. Operational
Recommendations helpful.

randy
--00000000000058ba4805dc15ef1b-- From nobody Thu Apr 7 14:10:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1233A178E; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:09:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Tim Bray via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 14:09:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 21:09:18 -0000 Reviewer: Tim Bray Review result: Ready with Issues I have reviewed draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05. It seems obvious that the WG needs to develop consensus whether or not a document such as this, which essentially says "REALLY don't do what this other RFC says not to", is a useful and appropriate tool. If no such consensus exists we can stop reviewing revisions and save time. If we assume that the document is useful and appropriate… - In section 2, the title "The Bottom Line" doesn’t seem appropriate. Could this be expressed a little less figuratively? - In section 2, the phrase "If it tried to do so, aside from the liability, it would end in a world of complexity with no proof of termination, as X.400 learned." leaves me blank. If we assume that this is likely to make sense to others likely to read this, disregard this. - In section 2, the two MUST assertions in successive paragraphs are a little puzzling. Is the second a proper subset of the first (looks like it to me)? If so, does it need to exist? Maybe it's trying to be an example, in which case it should say "e.g." instead of "i.e." If it's really an "i.e.", i.e. a restatement of the first MUST, then why does the first MUST need to exist? Also, I found the second MUST hard to understand (reminder: not an expert in this domain, feel free to disregard.) And, since this is the second time I've been asked, I do have a philosophical unease about this document. Whenever there is a key-pair, there is an identity in play: The entity which can arrange for documents to be signed with the private key. Which in this particular case, means the entity which has at some point in time could generate ROAs. This draft implies that there could never in any conceivable world be a useful result of having confidence that some document was signed by whoever it is that at that point in time could generate ROAs for some INR out there. Not the “owner”, not the “controller”, just whoever it is does the ROAs. How can you know that that could never be useful? In general, when a protocol element or online resource can be used to do something, and someone comes around saying “but you shouldn’t want to do that thing”, I get nervous. From nobody Thu Apr 7 14:46:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFB73A17CD; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:45:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-sidrops-6486bis@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <164936794301.19440.50545341424289931@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 14:45:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] Protocol Action: 'Manifests for the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI)' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-sidrops-6486bis-11.txt) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 21:45:44 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Manifests for the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI)' (draft-ietf-sidrops-6486bis-11.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the SIDR Operations Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Warren Kumari and Robert Wilton. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-6486bis/ Technical Summary This document defines a "manifest" for use in the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI). A manifest is a signed object (file) that contains a listing of all the signed objects (files) in the repository publication point (directory) associated with an authority responsible for publishing in the repository. For each certificate, Certificate Revocation List (CRL), or other type of signed objects issued by the authority that are published at this repository publication point, the manifest contains both the name of the file containing the object and a hash of the file content. Manifests are intended to enable a relying party (RP) to detect certain forms of attacks against a repository. Specifically, if an RP checks a manifest's contents against the signed objects retrieved from a repository publication point, then the RP can detect "stale" (valid) data and deletion of signed objects. This document is an update (-bis) to RFC 6486. Working Group Summary There was quite a long and thorough discussion of this document in the WG. With a large sea change in management of the Manifest and publication-point data repositories proposed and agreed-upon by the group and authors. Document Quality This is a -bis for an existing document, there is quite a bit of deployed infrastructure / implementations of the prior document, and most have now shifted to this new document as a response to some operational issues experienced in the field. 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Yep, I'll post this within the next week. -Tom From nobody Thu Apr 7 22:57:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9A43A1F2A; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DkJyWaflvWyH; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 881FD3A1F2B; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id r1so5727925vsi.12; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 22:56:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ioicbwa3s0nWfzUXa7KMpl3YXr6pHZQ2tmaim6YLkpQ=; b=Dtx26F0B+PF2wurTryuMWN3lMGRA00O95YzrEiK9Eivqy58hy1gwEXrT/LhGo43vi4 y2tGSBhdSNxJT6kYw4lF47Htl/5FvFrhXFfmRe14Aip3FzkvWgvsbv21T0mLXTQRDPz0 2B4ibBFmDd4gAz0oYMfpiyBV8vpduqYzkwF2vwOIvsrC+YkmkmfY7F1cY/A2PiuXuwx8 7XLEiMLvoW66tksRYYSMNnJ+/bpbyG/ft/QMqabLZulsuBYvkPVJ70jt/UIG1qlrPy3y QiFND/lj3Zeb4uK6JOMmzwGYuZ8g0MpGNVUSwV0l3+Y/3DL/FGLQi6aMPT20qf3QssRb o8tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ioicbwa3s0nWfzUXa7KMpl3YXr6pHZQ2tmaim6YLkpQ=; b=VcFT0khrwy4I0Ur6lM1n9tsrWBPFGOANvMhVTQMpVBlIaiyN8iKd0DsmYmoTAdo60T eG+Aojbs7z9eWWkIDca71+zE/linwkuj5C5lTt3yUK/VO6SpTVpfI4JsDHHQaC7L3cpt 9W9TUBP8M1/wIpYOzcT6VDrdgTVxF4MzPaNIP/0YoF+6aWIMwRY3aE7ZTCfe0OHYRee0 EA6NuGvrdnWXFQIeiRpIfiboCYrRRsbtDpvibucg8in8yymjAyEE518Wz2JFKRZ5hJ9A La3xY11pkjYmXfoLrF5/yuVl7n8cTLrTVmINtD+Xlsobqzhz/9TMj80jXdRDzVUosz0x aGlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532g9y/By4LE9JPUoDp0oY1fwAFfRtPdsML/T4ddi5u6kt1jSglQ H+Dhw4kW8kxtYqu02Xk/ccppq8aQcpjPQzNL8P0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1h/QDNCeWE+/Y8tD2AS1YcBcix/o1h3DtyygECvUiOcLoj7fsdwyK/zwGtn3zDyAlGSSGFs++ZEpOedxtg4c= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1c04:0:b0:325:15d8:c0e with SMTP id c4-20020a671c04000000b0032515d80c0emr5368507vsc.79.1649397383743; Thu, 07 Apr 2022 22:56:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164930737710.17649.10181082852380265521@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net, sidrops@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026cab505dc1e41e2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 05:56:32 -0000 --00000000000026cab505dc1e41e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:57 AM Randy Bush wrote: > > If it tried to do so, aside from the liability, it would end in a > > world of complexity with no proof of termination, as X.400 learned. > > > > Is there a reference describing the X.400 lesson that could be > > included here? > > [...] > > but, i take your point. a knowledge of history is required. might be > easiest to drop the ref to X.400. whatcha think? > > and i suspect that non-cs folk will not get 'proof of termination'. > hmmm. > That's probably sufficient. I was just curious when I read this sentence to read more about the history, but didn't know where to turn. Certainly not a blocking comment. > > Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) provide > > INR to real-world identity mapping through whois and similar > > services. They claim to be authoritative, at least for the INRs > > which they allocate. > > > > I think "WHOIS" is properly (or at least traditionally) in all-caps. > > i am inclined to lean on the rfced more than seems to be the current > fashion in the iesg. how about > > Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) provide > INR to real-world identity mapping through WHOIS, [RFC3912], and > similar services. They claim to be authoritative, at least for the > INRs which they allocate. > Works for me. -MSK --00000000000026cab505dc1e41e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:57 AM Randy= Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I= f it tried to do so, aside from the liability, it would end in a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 world of complexity with no proof of termination, as X.40= 0 learned.
>
> Is there a reference describing the X.400 lesson that could be
> included here?

[...]

but, i take your point.=C2=A0 a knowledge of history is required.=C2=A0 mig= ht be
easiest to drop the ref to X.400.=C2=A0 whatcha think?

and i suspect that non-cs folk will not get 'proof of termination'.=
hmmm.

That's probably sufficient.= =C2=A0 I was just curious when I read this sentence to read more about the = history, but didn't know where to turn.=C2=A0 Certainly not a blocking = comment.
=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs= ) provide
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 INR to real-world identity mapping through whois and simi= lar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 services.=C2=A0 They claim to be authoritative, at least = for the INRs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which they allocate.
>
> I think "WHOIS" is properly (or at least traditionally) in a= ll-caps.

i am inclined to lean on the rfced more than seems to be the current
fashion in the iesg.=C2=A0 how about

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Registries such as the Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) pro= vide
=C2=A0 =C2=A0INR to real-world identity mapping through WHOIS, [RFC3912], a= nd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0similar services.=C2=A0 They claim to be authoritative, at lea= st for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0INRs which they allocate.

= Works for me.

-MSK
--00000000000026cab505dc1e41e2-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 07:28:39 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257453A0A21; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 07:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id go1xVpaoqLJA; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 07:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A4B93A0A8B; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 07:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id s13so3151393vsp.2; Fri, 08 Apr 2022 07:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uFt8bhaRPLRiOaGOnuAOKFTdQyrPVaL1vt6J7Hyqckg=; b=TmdXD5OHQ8mpeLe9WZqJa43+BDxS4hhnRDjVGTQlVhYFOmOKC9gTS7QXyHHLQlE4t5 mW6pS6v4oT1Gypk+9mYM6P3FMmHQQeDJ8NcEISt1ZgfjhaiNanBzDL3H5eIFHYiM/vJe b7P3ORKqDLqk7VvIhoAyaCmO8CDHVKcUivv4aLnEV7jPLLl2NaziRyEg9DhWHL6BvdGX ttw86DennzTczvf2DRcyhC4DocgPE6O7e3rFR0Zi5Clg50pMaSkfxP4IeDaqzJBDs8hz Rjl+ilra2qonTNCNZL8qz2gyKo19EsGRi3+aDnnDLzZJt/VnLxODgeqyJuvFQi4KMmhi GjDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uFt8bhaRPLRiOaGOnuAOKFTdQyrPVaL1vt6J7Hyqckg=; b=ipYQJpviRV6ssXmbum1r7/vArkh+27m32JgSds2+y9DheDQ4e5eJgtN+s1bp589vRQ HCvJuD3/vWb5LHvAUT5zPzLLe5IxaN4dBSE33mbDGiaDzhVx/I7Zej1apkRSspmKHiYx bwx5Ne1r5bw+uYBBL01A52QCH9mot3SQyNcjIUbBwVSsSthfsEnM6f72WBO6CZBQBUyh 5QunWfDgf/RA2NROGKegK/G4FYjAG42J+/EFG+LlJ5sYjtDEPHPq7sxd/Nq179EmaCJw KEmQ3/BHFkCfHoiaD2Zsc0wPXf7Oop3n0HMjPOYN5T9i9HcrfiS/VAWtEGu3GDT9mE3t PkRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WnNem/VtZwXV4j/YZGepK+xouQ2Npa39JEn49tg5C1Rgbo3o2 jyluDGEx4YdyyHgM4r2xbujH2TOKU/lXn19N2zWuYu5jvbcfng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxsTmAO/6FYB93FJy7iOi/DiTuRvE3BUaCelnNN1j9+8xfvwA2Ag3XBsbkHdpaq1k8wGv8v91b0Mj2O9aUKROE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:124e:b0:328:14e0:1812 with SMTP id p14-20020a056102124e00b0032814e01812mr2727895vsg.35.1649428110689; Fri, 08 Apr 2022 07:28:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christopher Morrow Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 10:28:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: SIDR Operations WG , SIDROps Chairs , sidrops-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ecb6205dc2568f2" Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] WGLC - draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr - ENDS 04/25/2022 (Apr 25, 2022) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 14:28:39 -0000 --0000000000009ecb6205dc2568f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Howdy WG Folks, The authors requested that: draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr be sent for WGLC, there also were 2 folks on-list who agreed with that sentiment. So, given the shortness of the document and abstract included here: "A BGP Speaker performing RPKI-based policy should not issue Route Refresh to its neighbors when receiving new RPKI data. A method for avoiding doing so is described." Would you all take a few moments to read/review/comment/subscribe/share-with-friends and let the list know if this document is prepared for publication? :) -chris co-chair-persona --0000000000009ecb6205dc2568f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy WG Folks,
The authors requested that:
=C2=A0= =C2=A0draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr

be sent for WGL= C, there also were 2 folks on-list who agreed with that sentiment.
So, given the shortness of the document and abstract included here:
= =C2=A0 "A BGP Speaker performing RPKI-based policy should not issue Ro= ute
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Refresh to its neighbors when receiving new RPKI data= .=C2=A0 A method for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0avoiding doing so is described."<= br>
Would you all take a few moments to read/review/comment/subscribe/sh= are-with-friends
and let the list=C2=A0know if this document is prepare= d for publication? :)

-chris
co-chair-pe= rsona
--0000000000009ecb6205dc2568f2-- From nobody Fri Apr 8 09:01:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFADF3A1213 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:01:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMJnX-DysMr8 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9B5A3A1212 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 09:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1ncr2e-000Rvr-Q6; Fri, 08 Apr 2022 16:00:56 +0000 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 09:00:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Christopher Morrow Cc: SIDR Operations WG In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] WGLC - draft-ietf-sidrops-rov-no-rr - ENDS 04/25/2022 (Apr 25, 2022) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 16:01:06 -0000 i am not aware of any ipr randy From nobody Fri Apr 8 13:15:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1053A1156; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HemU927ihD9n; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 13:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (mail3.g24.pair.com [66.39.134.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6BBE3A1159; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 13:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A047B129A08; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pfs.iad.rg.net [198.180.150.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 839661297B9; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:14:20 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org, Last Call , sidrops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> References: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 20:14:26 -0000 Tim: Thanks for taking the time to read the document and submit a review. > On Apr 7, 2022, at 5:09 PM, Tim Bray via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Tim Bray > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I have reviewed draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05. >=20 > It seems obvious that the WG needs to develop consensus whether or not = a > document such as this, which essentially says "REALLY don't do what = this other > RFC says not to", is a useful and appropriate tool. If no such = consensus exists > we can stop reviewing revisions and save time. Yes. In fact, this seems to need repeated and highlighted. This was = written when a system was deployed. initially, I considered it a = reminder, but the SIDROPS WG felt that it was important enough to = publish. > If we assume that the document is useful and appropriate=E2=80=A6 >=20 > - In section 2, the title "The Bottom Line" doesn=E2=80=99t seem = appropriate. Could > this be expressed a little less figuratively? I am not really sure what section title works better. How about: The RPKI is for Authorization > - In section 2, the phrase "If it tried to do so, aside from the = liability, it > would end in a world of complexity with no proof of termination, as = X.400 > learned." leaves me blank. If we assume that this is likely to make = sense to > others likely to read this, disregard this. How about we drop the end of the sentence? With some editing, I = suggest: That the RPKI does not authenticate real-world identity is by design. If it tried to do so, aside from the additional liability, it would = also add considerable complexity. > - In section 2, the two MUST assertions in successive paragraphs are a = little > puzzling. Is the second a proper subset of the first (looks like it to = me)? If > so, does it need to exist? Maybe it's trying to be an example, in = which case it > should say "e.g." instead of "i.e." If it's really an "i.e.", i.e. a > restatement of the first MUST, then why does the first MUST need to = exist?=20 > Also, I found the second MUST hard to understand (reminder: not an = expert in > this domain, feel free to disregard.) I suggest that we merge the two paragraphs: PKI operations MUST NOT be performed with RPKI certificates other than exactly as described, and for the purposes described, in [RFC6480]. That is, RPKI-based credentials of INRs MUST NOT be used to authenticate real-world documents or transactions without = some formal external authentication of the INR and the authority for the = actually anonymous INR holder to authenticate the particular document or transaction. Hopefully this make it clear that he second MUST NOT is talking about an = example of the first one. > And, since this is the second time I've been asked, I do have a = philosophical > unease about this document. Whenever there is a key-pair, there is an = identity > in play: The entity which can arrange for documents to be signed with = the > private key. Which in this particular case, means the entity which has = at some > point in time could generate ROAs. This draft implies that there = could never > in any conceivable world be a useful result of having confidence that = some > document was signed by whoever it is that at that point in time could = generate > ROAs for some INR out there. Not the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D, not the = =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D, just > whoever it is does the ROAs. How can you know that that could never be = useful?=20 > In general, when a protocol element or online resource can be used to = do > something, and someone comes around saying =E2=80=9Cbut you = shouldn=E2=80=99t want to do that > thing=E2=80=9D, I get nervous. It is an authorization, not an identity. RFC 6484 says: The most important and distinguishing aspect of the PKI for which this policy was created is that it does not purport to identify an INR holder via the subject name contained in the certificate issued to that entity. Rather, each certificate issued under this policy is intended to enable an entity to assert, in a verifiable fashion, that it is the current holder of an INR based on the current records of the entity responsible for the resources in question. Verification of the assertion is based on two criteria: the ability of the entity to digitally sign data that is verifiable using the public key contained in the corresponding certificate, and validation of that certificate in the context of this PKI. Russ From nobody Fri Apr 8 15:09:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0183A18F9; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 15:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1S_-Ajb84cT; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C36E3A18F4; Fri, 8 Apr 2022 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1ncwnE-000SbB-Ic; Fri, 08 Apr 2022 22:09:24 +0000 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 15:09:23 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Russ Housley Cc: Tim Bray , art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org, Last Call , sidrops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> References: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 22:09:31 -0000 tim and russ: >> It seems obvious that the WG needs to develop consensus whether or >> not a document such as this, which essentially says "REALLY don't do >> what this other RFC says not to", is a useful and appropriate >> tool. If no such consensus exists we can stop reviewing revisions and >> save time. as it passed wglc and is in ietf last call, is it not safe to presume this is the case? i confuse easily. what am i missing here? the last time chasing this woozle around the tree, i thought we made pretty clear that, sad to say, history has shown it is indeed needed. >> - In section 2, the title "The Bottom Line" doesn=A2t seem appropriate. >> Could this be expressed a little less figuratively? >=20 > I am not really sure what section title works better. How about: >=20 > The RPKI is for Authorization how about "To Summarize?" >> - In section 2, the phrase "If it tried to do so, aside from the >> liability, it would end in a world of complexity with no proof of >> termination, as X.400 learned." leaves me blank. If we assume that >> this is likely to make sense to others likely to read this, >> disregard this. >=20 > How about we drop the end of the sentence? the X.400 ref was dropped the other day per murray kucherawy's review. >> - In section 2, the two MUST assertions in successive paragraphs are >> a little puzzling. Is the second a proper subset of the first >> (looks like it to me)? If so, does it need to exist? Maybe it's >> trying to be an example, in which case it should say "e.g." instead >> of "i.e." If it's really an "i.e.", i.e. a restatement of the >> first MUST, then why does the first MUST need to exist? Also, I >> found the second MUST hard to understand (reminder: not an expert >> in this domain, feel free to disregard.) >=20 > I suggest that we merge the two paragraphs: >=20 > PKI operations MUST NOT be performed with RPKI certificates other > than exactly as described, and for the purposes described, in > [RFC6480]. That is, RPKI-based credentials of INRs MUST NOT be > used to authenticate real-world documents or transactions without some > formal external authentication of the INR and the authority for the ac= tually > anonymous INR holder to authenticate the particular document or > transaction. >=20 > Hopefully this make it clear that he second MUST NOT is talking about > an example of the first one. to quote a grandchild, whatever. unless an AD requests otherwise, let's hold publishing a revision for a while. randy From nobody Tue Apr 12 06:36:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2CB3A1F83; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:35:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Francesca Palombini via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net, morrowc@ops-netman.net X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Francesca Palombini Message-ID: <164977055162.22301.7193991847737146257@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:35:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] Francesca Palombini's Discuss on draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:35:52 -0000 Francesca Palombini has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/ for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work on this document. Many thanks to Tim Bray for his ART ART review: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/SKUKjoE9bPh62XsVezoD5mPAkz4/, and to the authors for addressing Tim's comments. I have one question for consideration (which will not require any textual changes to the document): is "Standard Track" the proper track of RFC for this document? I am happy to be told by the authors, working group or responsible AD that yes - this has been discussed and the consensus was that "Standard Track" is the most appropriate track for this document. Normally I would look for such information in the shepherd write-up, but unfortunately I can't find my answer there, nor through my superficial archive search. Note I am not questioning the need for this document, which I understand has been discussed and has consensus, barely its track - doesn't this fit better as Informational, or even BCP (although I concur with Murray, BCP does not seem appropriate)? 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Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:39:39 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: Randy Bush , Russ Housley CC: "art@ietf.org" , "sidrops@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org" , Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 Thread-Index: AQHYSsPN1wJKgf5kEU6MHa/qeoTfe6zmdO4AgAAgJYCABbnetw== Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:39:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: dad3010c-4988-45f7-f58a-08da1c89e45c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR0702MB3822:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_VI1PR07MB422339ECD8AF268AB3EF59CC98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB4223.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dad3010c-4988-45f7-f58a-08da1c89e45c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Apr 2022 13:39:39.0772 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: SRNfEU/PSXNiKxK4+myZBRxKdYXt0yXnabVRBhcek1UMT7Ck9flu0ERuyQ2T4gSEc2MbQnvoAorCoadOdOO8zouC4yocxHPu6TMwCpYKmPPocooYfJO6iSGARJknOr5Q X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0702MB3822 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:55:53 -0700 Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:39:50 -0000 --_000_VI1PR07MB422339ECD8AF268AB3EF59CC98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim: many thanks for this review. Randy, Russ: thanks for taking Tim=92s co= mments into account. Very minor =96 I personally would vote for =93The RPKI= is for Authorization=94 to =93To Summarize=94, since that gives a better h= int of the section content. I balloted DISCUSS on the document because I have a question about the chos= en track for the document, but I expect to remove the block after a short d= iscussion about it. Francesca From: art on behalf of Randy Bush Date: Saturday, 9 April 2022 at 00:10 To: Russ Housley Cc: art@ietf.org , sidrops@ietf.org , draft= -ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org , Tim Bray , Last Call Subject: Re: [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no= -identity-05 tim and russ: >> It seems obvious that the WG needs to develop consensus whether or >> not a document such as this, which essentially says "REALLY don't do >> what this other RFC says not to", is a useful and appropriate >> tool. If no such consensus exists we can stop reviewing revisions and >> save time. as it passed wglc and is in ietf last call, is it not safe to presume this is the case? i confuse easily. what am i missing here? the last time chasing this woozle around the tree, i thought we made pretty clear that, sad to say, history has shown it is indeed needed. >> - In section 2, the title "The Bottom Line" doesn=A2t seem appropriate. >> Could this be expressed a little less figuratively? > > I am not really sure what section title works better. How about: > > The RPKI is for Authorization how about "To Summarize?" >> - In section 2, the phrase "If it tried to do so, aside from the >> liability, it would end in a world of complexity with no proof of >> termination, as X.400 learned." leaves me blank. If we assume that >> this is likely to make sense to others likely to read this, >> disregard this. > > How about we drop the end of the sentence? the X.400 ref was dropped the other day per murray kucherawy's review. >> - In section 2, the two MUST assertions in successive paragraphs are >> a little puzzling. Is the second a proper subset of the first >> (looks like it to me)? If so, does it need to exist? Maybe it's >> trying to be an example, in which case it should say "e.g." instead >> of "i.e." If it's really an "i.e.", i.e. a restatement of the >> first MUST, then why does the first MUST need to exist? Also, I >> found the second MUST hard to understand (reminder: not an expert >> in this domain, feel free to disregard.) > > I suggest that we merge the two paragraphs: > > PKI operations MUST NOT be performed with RPKI certificates other > than exactly as described, and for the purposes described, in > [RFC6480]. That is, RPKI-based credentials of INRs MUST NOT be > used to authenticate real-world documents or transactions without some > formal external authentication of the INR and the authority for the ac= tually > anonymous INR holder to authenticate the particular document or > transaction. > > Hopefully this make it clear that he second MUST NOT is talking about > an example of the first one. to quote a grandchild, whatever. unless an AD requests otherwise, let's hold publishing a revision for a while. randy _______________________________________________ art mailing list art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --_000_VI1PR07MB422339ECD8AF268AB3EF59CC98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tim: many= thanks for this review. Randy, Russ: thanks for taking Tim=92s comments in= to account. Very minor =96 I personally would vote for =93The RPKI i= s for Authorization=94 to =93To Summarize=94, since that gives a better hint of the section content.

&nbs= p;

I ballote= d DISCUSS on the document because I have a question about the chosen track = for the document, but I expect to remove the block after a short discussion= about it.

&nbs= p;

Francesca=

&nbs= p;

From: art <art-bounces@ietf.org> on beha= lf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
Date: Saturday, 9 April 2022 at 00:10
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Cc: art@ietf.org <art@ietf.org>, sidrops@ietf.org <sidrops@= ietf.org>, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org <draf= t-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org>, Tim Bray <tbray@te= xtuality.com>, Last Call <last-call@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki= -has-no-identity-05

tim and russ:

>> It seems obvious that the WG needs to develop consensus whether or=
>> not a document such as this, which essentially says "REALLY d= on't do
>> what this other RFC says not to", is a useful and appropriate=
>> tool. If no such consensus exists we can stop reviewing revisions = and
>> save time.

as it passed wglc and is in ietf last call, is it not safe to presume
this is the case?  i confuse easily.  what am i missing here?

the last time chasing this woozle around the tree, i thought we made
pretty clear that, sad to say, history has shown it is indeed needed.

>> - In section 2, the title "The Bottom Line" doesn=A2t se= em appropriate.
>> Could this be expressed a little less figuratively?
>
> I am not really sure what section title works better.  How about:=
>
>        The RPKI is for Authorizatio= n

how about "To Summarize?"

>> - In section 2, the phrase "If it tried to do so, aside from = the
>>   liability, it would end in a world of complexity with = no proof of
>>   termination, as X.400 learned." leaves me blank. = If we assume that
>>   this is likely to make sense to others likely to read = this,
>>   disregard this.
>
> How about we drop the end of the sentence?

the X.400 ref was dropped the other day per murray kucherawy's review.

>> - In section 2, the two MUST assertions in successive paragraphs a= re
>>   a little puzzling. Is the second a proper subset of th= e first
>>   (looks like it to me)?  If so, does it need to ex= ist? Maybe it's
>>   trying to be an example, in which case it should say &= quot;e.g." instead
>>   of "i.e."  If it's really an "i.e.= ", i.e. a restatement of the
>>   first MUST, then why does the first MUST need to exist= ?  Also, I
>>   found the second MUST hard to understand (reminder: no= t an expert
>>   in this domain, feel free to disregard.)
>
> I suggest that we merge the two paragraphs:
>
>    PKI operations MUST NOT be performed with RPKI certi= ficates other
>    than exactly as described, and for the purposes desc= ribed, in
>    [RFC6480].  That is, RPKI-based credentials of = INRs MUST NOT be
>    used to authenticate real-world documents or transac= tions without some
>    formal external authentication of the INR and the au= thority for the actually
>    anonymous INR holder to authenticate the particular = document or
>    transaction.
>
> Hopefully this make it clear that he second MUST NOT is talking about<= br> > an example of the first one.

to quote a grandchild, whatever.

unless an AD requests otherwise, let's hold publishing a revision for a
while.

randy

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/art

--_000_VI1PR07MB422339ECD8AF268AB3EF59CC98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 11:44:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB9C3A0AFC; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:44:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pWMsUyPre8di; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C56113A0AD9; 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Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:13:23 -0400 Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "sidrops@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org" , Tim Bray Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2053596A-4A59-4ED5-B0DA-BD6C08CFBDD3@vigilsec.com> References: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> To: Randy Bush , Francesca Palombini X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:13:31 -0000 > On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 >> Tim: many thanks for this review. Randy, Russ: thanks for taking = Tim=E2=80=99s >> comments into account. Very minor =E2=80=93 I personally would vote = for =E2=80=9CThe >> RPKI is for Authorization=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CTo Summarize=E2=80=9D, = since that gives a >> better hint of the section content. >=20 > wfm if it works for russ, wg chairs, and ace Fine with me. >=20 >> I balloted DISCUSS on the document because I have a question about = the >> chosen track for the document, but I expect to remove the block after >> a short discussion about it. >=20 > it was at first. but the wg decided otherwise, pretty much because of > the really disgusting abuses. Right. WG choose to progress as a standards-track document. Russ From nobody Tue Apr 12 13:19:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B45A3A0B80; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:19:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlT1eWGkPVyz; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 397873A0B7B; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1neMyo-000gBZ-1S; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:19:14 +0000 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Russ Housley Cc: Francesca Palombini , "art@ietf.org" , "sidrops@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org" , Tim Bray In-Reply-To: <2053596A-4A59-4ED5-B0DA-BD6C08CFBDD3@vigilsec.com> References: <164936575713.6320.18195760378286197162@ietfa.amsl.com> <10652A23-5534-423B-B8AC-3320881CA38A@vigilsec.com> <2053596A-4A59-4ED5-B0DA-BD6C08CFBDD3@vigilsec.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=BIG5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:19:21 -0000 Pj4+IFRpbTogbWFueSB0aGFua3MgZm9yIHRoaXMgcmV2aWV3LiBSYW5keSwgUnVzczogdGhhbmtz IGZvciB0YWtpbmcgVGltoaZzDQo+Pj4gY29tbWVudHMgaW50byBhY2NvdW50LiBWZXJ5IG1pbm9y IKFWIEkgcGVyc29uYWxseSB3b3VsZCB2b3RlIGZvciChp1RoZQ0KPj4+IFJQS0kgaXMgZm9yIEF1 dGhvcml6YXRpb26hqCB0byChp1RvIFN1bW1hcml6ZaGoLCBzaW5jZSB0aGF0IGdpdmVzIGENCj4+ PiBiZXR0ZXIgaGludCBvZiB0aGUgc2VjdGlvbiBjb250ZW50Lg0KPj4gDQo+PiB3Zm0gaWYgaXQg d29ya3MgZm9yIHJ1c3MsIHdnIGNoYWlycywgYW5kIGFjZQ0KPiANCj4gRmluZSB3aXRoIG1lLg0K DQppZiBhbmQgd2hlbiBpIGdldCBlbGVjdHJpY2FsIHBvd2VyIGJhY2sNCg0KcmFuZHk= From nobody Tue Apr 12 13:22:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524563A0CE1; 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boundary="_000_VI1PR07MB4223201B37FB35F32EAFE9EB98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB4223.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 23b3c61e-e30f-4280-ef17-08da1cc21bb4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Apr 2022 20:22:04.0109 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ZZC9RVta2sHO6HM0jZrl6XR4B0wjtCqlCD7erwwHx4EE2jmSojDgfuH3wf5Xty8q89CY4LqtQ4zNz5UJeD20EgbP+I/Qs7fUPwK0Z+qh5F3aDAkmI9bElbk+tI3NY8ii X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3721 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-05 X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:22:16 -0000 --_000_VI1PR07MB4223201B37FB35F32EAFE9EB98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Russ, Randy, Thanks for confirming that this has been discussed and agreed on =96 I will= remove the DISCUSS. Francesca From: Russ Housley Date: Tuesday, 12 April 2022 at 21:13 To: Randy Bush , Francesca Palombini Cc: art@ietf.org , sidrops@ietf.org , draft= -ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org , Tim Bray Subject: Re: [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no= -identity-05 > On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > >> Tim: many thanks for this review. Randy, Russ: thanks for taking Tim=92s >> comments into account. Very minor =96 I personally would vote for =93The >> RPKI is for Authorization=94 to =93To Summarize=94, since that gives a >> better hint of the section content. > > wfm if it works for russ, wg chairs, and ace Fine with me. > >> I balloted DISCUSS on the document because I have a question about the >> chosen track for the document, but I expect to remove the block after >> a short discussion about it. > > it was at first. but the wg decided otherwise, pretty much because of > the really disgusting abuses. Right. WG choose to progress as a standards-track document. Russ --_000_VI1PR07MB4223201B37FB35F32EAFE9EB98ED9VI1PR07MB4223eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Russ, = Randy,

&nbs= p;

Thanks fo= r confirming that this has been discussed and agreed on =96 I will remove t= he DISCUSS.

&nbs= p;

Francesca=

&nbs= p;

From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>= ;
Date: Tuesday, 12 April 2022 at 21:13
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, Francesca Palombini <france= sca.palombini@ericsson.com>
Cc: art@ietf.org <art@ietf.org>, sidrops@ietf.org <sidrops@= ietf.org>, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org <draf= t-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity.all@ietf.org>, Tim Bray <tbray@te= xtuality.com>
Subject: Re: [art] Artart telechat review of draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki= -has-no-identity-05



> On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:43 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote: >
>> Tim: many thanks for this review. Randy, Russ: thanks for taking T= im=92s
>> comments into account. Very minor =96 I personally would vote for = =93The
>> RPKI is for Authorization=94 to =93To Summarize=94, since that giv= es a
>> better hint of the section content.
>
> wfm if it works for russ, wg chairs, and ace

Fine with me.

>
>> I balloted DISCUSS on the document because I have a question about= the
>> chosen track for the document, but I expect to remove the block af= ter
>> a short discussion about it.
>
> it was at first.  but the wg decided otherwise, pretty much becau= se of
> the really disgusting abuses.

Right.  WG choose to progress as a standards-track document.

Russ

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charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Mar 06, 2022 at 06:02:25PM -0800, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the SIDR Operations WG of the IETF. > > Title : RPKI Signed Object for Trust Anchor Key > Authors : Carlos Martinez > George G. Michaelson > Tom Harrison > Tim Bruijnzeels > Rob Austein > Filename : draft-ietf-sidrops-signed-tal-09.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2022-03-06 > > Abstract: > A Trust Anchor Locator (TAL) is used by Relying Parties (RPs) in the > Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) to locate and validate a > Trust Anchor (TA) Certification Authority (CA) certificate used in > RPKI validation. This document defines an RPKI signed object for a > Trust Anchor Key (TAK), that can be used by a TA to signal the > location(s) of the accompanying CA certificate for the current key to > RPs, as well as the successor key and the location(s) of its CA > certificate. This object helps to support planned key rolls without > impacting RPKI validation. To summarise the changes in -09: - acceptance timers (similar to those in RFC 5011) for transition to new keys have been added; - the term 'revoked' is avoided, so that there is no confusion around semantics; and - the predecessor key is included in the TAK object, as an additional check that things are set up correctly. Feedback on this updated model would be appreciated. The changes in more detail: in the feedback on -07, there were various pointers to alternative approaches to TA rollover, and suggestions that we look into that topic more generally. Notes on this feedback: - RFC 4210: Certificate Management Protocol (CMP) - The process in RFC 4210 is that the root CA operator signs the old key with the new key, and the new key with the old key, which the clients can then fetch from the CA operator. That means that clients who trust the old key can validate certificates signed with the new key, and clients who trust the new key can validate certificates signed with the old key. - It's not clear that this work translates to RPKI, though. The mechanism in RFC 4210 appears to be designed to account for out-of-band TA distribution, as well as clients receiving certificates from other sources. Since the aim with signed TAL is to have TA distribution be in-band, and also considering that all certificates are stored in a repository, it doesn't appear that this work will help here. - RFC 8649: Hash Of Root Key Certificate Extension - This document defines a process where the TA can include the hash of the next TA key in their current TA certificate, and then clients can transition on seeing that new certificate. - Tim commented on this on the list: a couple of issues are that some RPs might not ignore the extension (compare the situation with a new signed object, which would definitely be ignored), and it also limits the ability to transition once the certificate has been replaced (i.e. once the new TA certificate is published, the old TAL data can no longer be used). - Another consideration is that RPKI supports arbitrary reissuance of the TA certificate, so there would need to be additional guidance around what the RP should do when the extension is removed, or when a new hash is seen, and how long the hash should be in place before a new TA using the associated key will be accepted, and so on. - Web PKI generally - It doesn't appear that key rollover happens in this context. It looks like root CA operators simply issue new root CA certificates as required, and then rely on cross-certification for clients that aren't configured to trust the new root CA. - RFC 5011: Automated updates of DNSSEC TAs - The acceptance timer behaviour from this document seems like a useful way to guard against the problems raised around key compromise, and has been added to the document. With a timer, an attacker who gains access to the TA key and publication point is no longer able to immediately transition all clients to a key and publication point controlled solely by the attacker, which is helpful. - Including this delay also deals in part with some of the support for a "sign in advance"-type model. As far as literature/reference material on TA rollover more generally is concerned, we couldn't find any. Any pointers would be appreciated. The other main piece of feedback from last time was to do with using the term 'revoked' to describe TA keys that aren't current, because those 'revoked' keys will still be trusted by clients configured with the corresponding TAL, and an attacker who gains access to that key and publication point will still be able to cause trouble for any client configured with that TAL data who hasn't transitioned to the new key. This was addressed by avoiding the use of the term 'revoked' in the TAK object and the document, so as to avoid any confusion around semantics, and also by advising TAs to reuse TA certificate URLs for new keys, once they stop maintaining the previous keys hosted as those points. That will inhibit the use of the previous key by an attacker, since the URL will be in use for a different current key. The only other substantive change to the document since -07 is the inclusion of the predecessor key in the TAK object. This allows a relying party to confirm that the successor intends to operate as the successor for this specific key. This is just an extra check to make sure that things are set up correctly. Separately, there was a suggestion that we look into the versions of validators that are in use, to see how long it takes people to upgrade to current versions. The graph of this data for September 2021 through February 2022 is attached to this mail. The data is taken from APNIC's RRDP service, as at the last day of each month. The Y-axis is in terms of client ASNs, where individual IP addresses were mapped to ASNs by looking at data from BGP. Each ASN was only counted for the most up-to-date validator that was seen running from it. Only validators that provide version information in the user agent string were taking into account: Routinator, FORT, the RIPE validator, OctoRPKI, and rpki-prover. Version information for each validator was taken from the tags in the corresponding Github repository. Requests directly from browsers were discounted, while all other requests were placed in the 'Unknown' category. The key points from this data are that 30-50% of the known validators are running code that is more than one year behind the current version of that validator, and there are a large number of unknown clients hitting RRDP services (probably a substantial portion of these clients are rpki-client, though). To rely on signed TAL as the principal transition mechanism for TA rollover, it's likely that a concerted effort would need to be made on getting clients to upgrade once the associated RP code is in place, as well as getting a better understanding of the clients in the 'Unknown' category. -Tom --NorFhMryEzOVeM8m Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="validator-versions.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABMwAAAK1CAYAAAA0SXJQAAAABHNCSVQICAgIfAhkiAAAIABJREFU eJzs3Xd8FNX+//HPppKQQAghdIKGFulVUKpBmqEKgqBfUIn4lfu1AKKI2AALIlxBRG+uijRFEKmh iFSRImLoESIdQrsQQyop5/cHv+RO2Jlkd7Mt4fV8PPbx0DMz55zNzLCz7z1zxqSUUgIAAAAAAABA REQ8XN0BAAAAAAAAwJ0QmAEAAAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACABoEZAAAAAAAAoEFgBgAAAAAAAGgQmAEA AAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACABoEZAAAAAAAAoEFgBgAAAAAAAGgQmAEAAAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACABoEZ AAAAAAAAoEFgBgAAAAAAAGgQmAEAAAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACABoEZAAAAAAAAoEFgBgAAAAAAAGgQ mAEAAAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACABoEZAAAAAAAAoEFgBgAAAAAAAGgQmAEAAAAAAAAaBGYAAAAAAACA 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wdanG6LtaehTMms1ZEyLj483jz76qPnVr35lunXrxjkC0IY5jOG6ILRNSUlJ+ta3vqWNGzcGuhQA AAAAANCMcA8ztGnkxQAAAAAA4MsIzAAAAAAAAAALAjMAAAAAAADAgnuYAQAAAAAAABbMMAMAAAAA AAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAA AAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMA AAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIz AAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAg MAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAACwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALAgMAMAAAAAAAAsCMwAAAAAAAAA CwIzAAAAAAAAwILADAAAAAAAALD4f5FO4VZgZozHAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --NorFhMryEzOVeM8m-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 15:32:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEB03A1B6D; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: sidrops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: sidrops@ietf.org Message-ID: <164997553743.2730.5249134303623883135@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:32:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06.txt X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:32:18 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the SIDR Operations WG of the IETF. Title : The I in RPKI does not stand for Identity Authors : Randy Bush Russ Housley Filename : draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2022-04-14 Abstract: There is a false notion that Internet Number Resources (INRs) in the RPKI can be associated with the real-world identity of the 'holder' of an INR. This document attempts to put that notion to rest. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Fri Apr 15 08:24:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABCE63A0B02; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:24:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net, morrowc@ops-netman.net X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:24:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 15:24:43 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/ for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work done in this much needed document. Thanks to Chris Morrow for the shepherd's write-up even if a justification for the intended status would have been welcome (esp on this one). Please find below some minor comments: Abstract: you may want to rephrase "This document attempts to put that notion to rest." as it is not really clear to non-English speakers. Section 1: suggest to introduce the acronym "BB&S" at first use. Section 2: should the claim "as X.400 learned" be explained or a reference be added ? Hope this helps -éric From nobody Fri Apr 15 10:42:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DB03A108B; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dKTU2BC03XJ5; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (mail3.g24.pair.com [66.39.134.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 700CA3A1083; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.g24.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DFBDFF9F; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pfs.iad.rg.net [198.180.150.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail3.g24.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A981DFAF3; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:42:02 -0400 Cc: IESG , SIDROps Chairs , Chris Morrow , sidrops@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Eric Vyncke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 17:42:08 -0000 =C3=A9ric > Section 2: should the claim "as X.400 learned" be explained or a = reference be > added ? The most recent version dropped that part of the sentence based on = comments from other ADs. Russ= From nobody Fri Apr 15 12:10:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C713A0817 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ripe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fWjGRTmDT-16 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mahimahi.ripe.net (mahimahi.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:67c:2e8:11::c100:1372]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A9593A0840 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:10:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ripe.net; s=s1-ripe-net; h=To:Date:Message-Id:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:CC ; bh=bBLjdDCVpbHr4YU2kfsZ1QnwhCuoJKWljWZo1zOET0s=; b=DF/vhm2kSmy9KmiwCKxyvYOJ LRvtZ6JPrQx5XRpsOqw9K9j9LasELys2dPBcdnziOGht0+1kucyXYadfqouYxbp4PFF9aVMPOKV8h OqCpNsvxRXMOBcfgkkV2dAnilrjNM+hoJoPcVI1vb9l+bufADIc0Gdg4KDdeVIb/NgfP5YJNCpMJb 4xlzrBMHdcqM7nX31Su8MgkkxL/whe8mnmjv9PF2mWmCEXnvPknEOp2La1phbJABh7LtLPFQ4K8HF CgUUm0ekcbpJIAX0BzBzgQ7VBHAG3Q8eJi32tVAr4px7GfJzAbW9NbugUpDLDI4Sf7MYe5uhVMUod t7IoGGTElw==; Received: from allealle.ripe.net ([2001:67c:2e8:23::c100:170c]:54146) by mahimahi.ripe.net with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nfRLD-000CdM-8y for sidrops@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:10:47 +0200 Received: from sslvpn.ipv6.ripe.net ([2001:67c:2e8:9::c100:14e6] helo=smtpclient.apple) by allealle.ripe.net with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nfRLD-0005Rj-5y for sidrops@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 19:10:47 +0000 From: Nathalie Trenaman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Message-Id: <92C880CD-43ED-474F-AF79-13E8EBB722BC@ripe.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:10:46 +0200 To: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) X-RIPE-Signature: 18706c59bce47014ab71a1af93a0d016c6dc6e049f963dafd0c756e99ee30563 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] sidrops 113 meeting notes X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 19:10:55 -0000 Hi all, Sorry for the delay, here are the draft minutes for sidrops at IETF113, Comments, edits welcome! https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/minutes-113-sidrops-00 Cheers, Nathalie From nobody Fri Apr 15 12:32:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietf.org Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B743A0112; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: draft-ietf-sidrops-8210bis@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <165005114421.2598.2556635041917175311@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:32:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Sidrops] Last Call: (The Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) to Router Protocol, Version 2) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 19:32:25 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the SIDR Operations WG (sidrops) to consider the following document: - 'The Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) to Router Protocol, Version 2' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2022-04-29. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract In order to verifiably validate the origin Autonomous Systems and Autonomous System Paths of BGP announcements, routers need a simple but reliable mechanism to receive Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RFC 6480) prefix origin data and router keys from a trusted cache. This document describes a protocol to deliver them. This document describes version 2 of the RPKI-Router protocol. RFC 6810 describes version 0, and RFC 8210 describes version 1. This document obsoletes and replaces RFC 8210. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidrops-8210bis/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Fri Apr 15 13:54:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E371B3A10EA; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFDeHo58HkCb; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3D993A10E8; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nfSxB-000tyF-Ab; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 20:54:05 +0000 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Russ Housley Cc: Eric Vyncke , IESG , SIDROps Chairs , Chris Morrow , sidrops@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] =?iso-8859-1?q?=C9ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft?= =?iso-8859-1?q?-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 20:54:14 -0000 >> Section 2: should the claim "as X.400 learned" be explained or a >> reference be added ? > The most recent version dropped that part of the sentence based on > comments from other ADs. the -06 published yesterday has that and other changes randy From nobody Fri Apr 15 14:01:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B933A116C; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 14:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e6cntUikxv08; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 14:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 197683A116E; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 14:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nfT4Z-000tzn-Ep; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:01:44 +0000 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 14:01:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22=C9ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker=22?= Cc: "The IESG" , draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org, sidrops-chairs@ietf.org, sidrops@ietf.org, morrowc@ops-netman.net In-Reply-To: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] =?iso-8859-1?q?=C9ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft?= =?iso-8859-1?q?-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:01:54 -0000 eric, thanks for the effort of reviewing > Abstract: you may want to rephrase "This document attempts to put that notion > to rest." as it is not really clear to non-English speakers. This document attempts to make clear that notion is incorrect. > Section 1: suggest to introduce the acronym "BB&S" at first use. sure > Section 2: should the claim "as X.400 learned" be explained or a > reference be added ? had already been done randy From nobody Fri Apr 15 23:01:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2DD3A12B8; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:01:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH0PR11MB4966.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f18e9753-3cbf-4ce4-706c-08da1f6e6acd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Apr 2022 06:00:32.3808 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: e794IfHC6Q5V2gUyR1lJkIoj8EiEgk3fiDz8T2isHUgxLe6pGL+FXWsLyXksIwvqDX6SLNQVKhchbpHEQun1Dw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR11MB1345 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.227.252, xfe-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 06:01:02 -0000 UmFuZHkgYW5kIFJ1c3MsDQoNCj4gICAgZXJpYywNCg0KPiAgICB0aGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBlZmZv cnQgb2YgcmV2aWV3aW5nDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgcmVwbHlpbmcgOy0pIA0KDQo+ICAgID4gQWJz dHJhY3Q6IHlvdSBtYXkgd2FudCB0byByZXBocmFzZSAiVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBhdHRlbXB0cyB0 byBwdXQgdGhhdCBub3Rpb24NCj4gICAgPiB0byByZXN0LiIgYXMgaXQgaXMgbm90IHJlYWxseSBj bGVhciB0byBub24tRW5nbGlzaCBzcGVha2Vycy4NCg0KPiAgICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGF0dGVt cHRzIHRvIG1ha2UgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCBub3Rpb24gaXMgaW5jb3JyZWN0Lg0KDQpUcnVlIHRoYXQg dGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGlzIGNsZWFyIG9uIHRoZSB0b3BpYywgYnV0IHRoZSBhYnN0cmFjdCBpcyBu b3QgZm9yIG5vbi1FbmdsaXNoIHNwZWFrZXIuIE1heSBJIHN1Z2dlc3QgIlRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQg YXR0ZW1wdHMgdG8gY2xhcmlmeSB0aGF0IFJQS0kgbXVzdCBub3QgYmUgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB0byB0 aGUgaG9sZGVyLiIgPyBPciBldmVuLCBhcyBpdCBpcyBzdGFuZGFyZCB0cmFjayAoYW4gZXhwbGFu YXRpb24gZm9yIHRoaXMgc3RhdHVzIHdvdWxkIHN0aWxsIGJlIHdlbGNvbWUpIHJhdGhlciB0aGFu ICJhdHRlbXB0cyIgdXNlIHN0cm9uZ2VyICJyZWNvbW1lbmRzIiBvciBldmVuICJzcGVjaWZpZXMi ID8NCg0KPiAgICA+IFNlY3Rpb24gMjogc2hvdWxkIHRoZSBjbGFpbSAiYXMgWC40MDAgbGVhcm5l ZCIgYmUgZXhwbGFpbmVkIG9yIGENCj4gICAgPiByZWZlcmVuY2UgYmUgYWRkZWQgPw0KDQo+ICAg IGhhZCBhbHJlYWR5IGJlZW4gZG9uZQ0KDQpXaGVyZSA/IFJ1c3MgYWxzbyBoaW50ZWQgdGhhdCBp dCBoYXMgYmVlbiBhZGRlZCBhdCBvbmUgQUQncyByZXF1ZXN0LCBidXQgSSBhbSBzdXJlIHRoYXQg dGhpcyBBRCB3YW50ZWQgbW9yZSB0aGFuICJhcyBYLjQwMCBsZWFybmVkIiA6LSkNCg0KQXMgeW91 IGtub3csIGFsbCBteSBDT01NRU5UcyBhcmUgbm9uLWJsb2NraW5nDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMNCg0KLcOp cmljDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Sat Apr 16 10:46:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB0C3A0412; Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kso4BYd885Z4; Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD00B3A041E; Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nfmUv-000wPj-AB; Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:46:13 +0000 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:46:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22=C9ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker=22?= , "sidrops-chairs@ietf.org" , "morrowc@ops-netman.net" , "sidrops@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <165003628265.2603.9357607299365304629@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Sidrops] =?iso-8859-1?q?=C9ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft?= =?iso-8859-1?q?-ietf-sidrops-rpki-has-no-identity-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: sidrops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A list for the SIDR Operations WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:46:24 -0000 >>> Abstract: you may want to rephrase "This document attempts to put that notion >>> to rest." as it is not really clear to non-English speakers. > >> This document attempts to make clear that notion is incorrect. > > True that the document is clear on the topic, but the abstract is not > for non-English speaker. May I suggest "This document attempts to > clarify that RPKI must not be associated to the holder." ? Or even, as > it is standard track (an explanation for this status would still be > welcome) rather than "attempts" use stronger "recommends" or even > "specifies" ? This document specifies that RPKI does not associate to the INR holder. except 'associate' is not a great term. russ may have goof phrasing. >>> Section 2: should the claim "as X.400 learned" be explained or a >>> reference be added ? > >> had already been done > > Where ? Russ also hinted that it has been added at one AD's request, > but I am sure that this AD wanted more than "as X.400 learned" :-) sigh. you are right. i thought i removed this in -06 and had not. i have whacked it again. thanks. randy From nobody Sun Apr 17 19:52:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sidrops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BE13A12FF for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7YOQNNaBgk8 for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp13.cnnic.cn [218.241.118.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DF73A1296 for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Hello, guys,

As Rob, = George, Di and others mentioned, there are two sides to everything. Especi= ally for a security service, the basic motivation of RPKI is for more secu= red routing system, while it will surely introduce other new risks. We wan= t to optimize it during its designing, but it=E2=80=99s more important to = deploy and test it with a more simple logic. I totally agree with Tim, the= re are some specific situations (=E2=80=A6AS0 ROAs for unallocated space t= hat some RIRs publish=E2=80=A6) where the resources are more stable and wi= th low risk wrt overclaim, it=E2=80=99s worthy to pack the ROAs together t= o improve the RP=E2=80=99s efficiency. Then if we have rough consensus abo= ut this principles, what we need to do are:

1) De= scribe the one-prefix-per-ROA as a basic advice of CA operation;

2) List the specific scenarios which have low risk wrt ove= rclaim as the optimization situations CA may consider.
BR,
=0A

=0A
=0A
YAN Zhiwe= i
 
From: Rob Austein
Date: 2022-03-07 09:06
To: Keyur Patel
CC:&nbs= p;sidrops@ietf.org
Su= bject: Re: [Sidrops] [WGLC] draft-ietf-sidrops-roa-considerations= -01 - Ends 10/March/2022
I support publication = of this draft.
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=0A
Two comments, for whatever= they're worth:
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1) In retrospect, the abi= lity to specify multiple prefixes in a single
=0A
   RO= A seems like premature optimization: it's solving a problem I'm
=0A   not convinced we really have, at the expense of creating a= new one.
=0A
 
=0A
2) I tend to think about the mu= ltiple-prefix ROA problem in terms of
=0A
   "fate shar= ing": unless all the prefixes involved are in some way so
=0A
&nb= sp;  closely tied to each other that there will never be a change to = one
=0A
   of them that isn't a change to all, they sho= uld be separate ROAs.
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=0A
 
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