From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Mar 1 06:39:59 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02801 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02797 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e21EdMs18173; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:39:22 -0500 Message-ID: <38BD2B95.7B1BF5E7@oceana.com> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:39:17 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <38A1CB49.66FE6718@oceana.com> <7dn1ojl6wk.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Randall Gellens writes: > > > At 3:17 PM -0500 2/9/00, Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > >CMU Sieve currently strips all single backslashes in quoted strings, > > >which seems to be one reasonable implementation based on the working in > > >the spec. This behavior requires that any escaped meta-character in a > > >regex must be preceded by two backslashes. This behavior also effects > > >the :matches match-type in the base spec and imapflags as defined in > > >draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-02. > > > > > >I am not up to speed on the discussions that led to the current wording > > >in the spec, but I'd like to see all escape sequences passed through > > >untouched, or perhaps be context-sensitive as hinted at in the spec. > > >But, "this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong." > > > > I agree with you. Two backslashes should mean one literal backslash. > > "\." in a regexp should mean a literal dot. "\\." should mean a > > literal backslash followed by any character. Otherwise it's too > > confusing. > > I believe that this is impossible to correctly parse without passing > information between the parser and the lexer in a very unsavory way. > In particular, if you're trying to decide what a backslash means at > the lexer level, you can't, and you have to wait until the string is > used in context. > > I'm not happy that the spec says what it does. It was a mistake. > > For consistancy, I believe only \ and \" should be significant in a > string; to escape a metacharacter, the syntax should be "\\?" (i.e., > match a literal question mark). The sequence "\\\?" is not > syntactically legal. > > Programmers can grasp this (it's what C, Perl, and some Lisp > implementations do) and no one else will understand it, no matter what > we decide. > > I would like to change the spec to reflect the behavior implemented in > CMU's Sieve implementation. Tim, When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the base spec. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Mar 1 13:07:03 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08596 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08592 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10753; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:07:07 -0500 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Ken Murchison , Tim Showalter Subject: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension Message-ID: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <38BD2B95.7B1BF5E7@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0b8 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 9:39 AM -0500 the entity known as Ken Murchison wrote: > > When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or > two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the > base spec. To which Matthew Wall offers this response on Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:05:14 -0500: Yah, in point of fact, let me generalize this and suggest there's enough modest implementation experience that we should do a last round of revisions and submit this for extended last call. Time's a wastin'. ??? - Matt From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Mar 1 14:02:43 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09584 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09580 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AML00051; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:47 -0800 (PST) X-Spook: Lon Horiuchi Ron Brown NORAD Croatian Ft. Meade Mossad DES To: Matthew Wall Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Ken Murchison Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:02:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: Matthew Wall's message of "Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:07:07 -0500" Message-ID: <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Matthew Wall writes: > -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 9:39 AM -0500 the entity known as Ken > Murchison wrote: > > When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or > > two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the > > base spec. > > Yah, in point of fact, let me generalize this and suggest there's enough > modest implementation experience that we should do a last round of > revisions and submit this for extended last call. Time's a wastin'. I'm pretty busy at the moment. I will try and get a draft out soon. If everyone is fine with the semantic I want changed, then I'll change it in the document and hopefully get it out sometime next week, and then head for last call. I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read it and send me corrections. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Mar 1 15:11:26 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10688 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10684 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10969; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:10:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:11:30 -0500 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Tim Showalter , Ken Murchison Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension Message-ID: <753890.3160923090@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0b8 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 2:02 PM -0800 the entity known as Tim Showalter wrote: > > I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same > time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read > it and send me corrections. To which Matthew Wall offers this response on Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:11:23 -0500: Agreed, and I will 8-). - mw From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Mar 2 17:37:31 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04763 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04759 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp0.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e231bCs03337; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:37:12 -0500 Message-ID: <38BF1751.7A4ECCDE@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:37:21 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > I'm pretty busy at the moment. I will try and get a draft out soon. > If everyone is fine with the semantic I want changed, then I'll change > it in the document and hopefully get it out sometime next week, and > then head for last call. > > I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same > time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read > it and send me corrections. Unless I'm reading this line from [VACATION] incorrectly: "If the parameter given to ":days" is greater than the minimum value, then the minimum value is used instead." Shouldn't this read "less than" instead of "greater than"? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Fri Mar 10 15:01:50 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28782 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28778 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2AN1ts19357 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:01:59 -0500 Message-ID: <38C97EC3.564EEDB8@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:01:23 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Sieve regex extension draft update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: An updated version of this draft can be obtained from ftp://ftp/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt All comments and suggestions are welcome. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Fri Mar 10 18:58:22 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05773 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05767 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp1.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2B2wYs25621 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:58:34 -0500 Message-ID: <38C9B673.A4361407@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:58:59 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve regex extension draft update References: <38C97EC3.564EEDB8@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > > An updated version of this draft can be obtained from > ftp://ftp/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt Sorry. Obviously, only I can reach this server with a non-fully qualified name. Here is the complete URL. ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Mar 13 10:39:17 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19032 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19028 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2DIdss11107 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:39:54 -0500 Message-ID: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:39:14 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Sieve subaddress extension draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, from: http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out suggestion :^) are welcome. BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the latest version of CMU Sieve. Regards, Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Mar 13 11:37:13 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20802 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20798 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2DJbms12749; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:48 -0500 Message-ID: <38CD4365.402408C7@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:09 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Salmon CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve subaddress extension draft References: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> <38CD3D85.6CEDC355@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD3E3A.CF1B5A49@oceana.com> <38CD406B.D18A1B65@uab.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Michael Salmon wrote: > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > > > I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against > > > > user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, > > > > from: > > > > > > > > http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > > > > I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional > > > > arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all > > > > comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out > > > > suggestion :^) are welcome. > > > > > > > > BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the > > > > latest version of CMU Sieve. > > > > > > It is usually called a detailed or detail address. > > > > I know, I used ":detail" as one of the optional args. But what do you > > call the capability, "detail", "detailed", "detailed-address"? None of > > these seemed to work very well. > > I think that "detailed-address" is as good as "subaddress" but perhaps > you should focus on the fact that you are writing to a folder and name > the capability "folder-addressing" and then rename the address selector > to ":folder". I think that the capability and the selector should be > related. I agree that "detailed-address" is a better description, but don't you think its a little long for a require line? I was hoping to come up with a meaningful, yet succinct capability identifier. As far as ":folder", I didn't want to make any assumptions as to the nature of the detailed address. I would agree that in most cases the "detail" probably is a folder, but I don't think it has to be (no other uses come to mind right now, though). This is a good discussion. Hopefully some others will chime in and we can get some more ideas and come to some sort of consensus. Regards, Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Mar 14 00:35:09 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA21481 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21475 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms.uab.ericsson.se (ms.uab.ericsson.se [134.138.201.16]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/WIREfire-1.5) with ESMTP id JAA21037 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from uab.ericsson.se (uabmesa@uabasc1c62 [134.138.21.109]) by ms.uab.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/uab-2.23) with ESMTP id JAA11015 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:13 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38CDF9FA.9BF8E0C9@uab.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:10 +0100 From: Michael Salmon Organization: Ericsson Utvecklings AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: sv, en-GB, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve subaddress extension draft References: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> <38CD3D85.6CEDC355@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD3E3A.CF1B5A49@oceana.com> <38CD406B.D18A1B65@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD4365.402408C7@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against > > > > > user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, > > > > > from: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional > > > > > arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all > > > > > comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out > > > > > suggestion :^) are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the > > > > > latest version of CMU Sieve. > > > > > > > > It is usually called a detailed or detail address. > > > > > > I know, I used ":detail" as one of the optional args. But what do you > > > call the capability, "detail", "detailed", "detailed-address"? None of > > > these seemed to work very well. > > > > I think that "detailed-address" is as good as "subaddress" but perhaps > > you should focus on the fact that you are writing to a folder and name > > the capability "folder-addressing" and then rename the address selector > > to ":folder". I think that the capability and the selector should be > > related. > > I agree that "detailed-address" is a better description, but don't you > think its a little long for a require line? I was hoping to come up > with a meaningful, yet succinct capability identifier. Maybe it could have an alias of detadd? My guess is that most sieve scripts will be generated by GUI's and that require will not be generated by anything so mundane as actually writing them so it probably doesn't matter how long they are. After more thought I think that "detail-addressing" is nearer english when combined with require. > As far as ":folder", I didn't want to make any assumptions as to the > nature of the detailed address. I would agree that in most cases the > "detail" probably is a folder, but I don't think it has to be (no other > uses come to mind right now, though). You could use the same argument against :user, it probably should be :mailbox or :maildrop, mailbox is itself a bit ambiguous. If you used :folder then you could replace :user with :cabinet ;^), I think that Mulberry already does. /Michael Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA21481 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21475 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms.uab.ericsson.se (ms.uab.ericsson.se [134.138.201.16]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/WIREfire-1.5) with ESMTP id JAA21037 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from uab.ericsson.se (uabmesa@uabasc1c62 [134.138.21.109]) by ms.uab.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/uab-2.23) with ESMTP id JAA11015 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:13 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38CDF9FA.9BF8E0C9@uab.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:36:10 +0100 From: Michael Salmon Organization: Ericsson Utvecklings AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: sv, en-GB, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve subaddress extension draft References: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> <38CD3D85.6CEDC355@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD3E3A.CF1B5A49@oceana.com> <38CD406B.D18A1B65@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD4365.402408C7@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against > > > > > user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, > > > > > from: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional > > > > > arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all > > > > > comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out > > > > > suggestion :^) are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the > > > > > latest version of CMU Sieve. > > > > > > > > It is usually called a detailed or detail address. > > > > > > I know, I used ":detail" as one of the optional args. But what do you > > > call the capability, "detail", "detailed", "detailed-address"? None of > > > these seemed to work very well. > > > > I think that "detailed-address" is as good as "subaddress" but perhaps > > you should focus on the fact that you are writing to a folder and name > > the capability "folder-addressing" and then rename the address selector > > to ":folder". I think that the capability and the selector should be > > related. > > I agree that "detailed-address" is a better description, but don't you > think its a little long for a require line? I was hoping to come up > with a meaningful, yet succinct capability identifier. Maybe it could have an alias of detadd? My guess is that most sieve scripts will be generated by GUI's and that require will not be generated by anything so mundane as actually writing them so it probably doesn't matter how long they are. After more thought I think that "detail-addressing" is nearer english when combined with require. > As far as ":folder", I didn't want to make any assumptions as to the > nature of the detailed address. I would agree that in most cases the > "detail" probably is a folder, but I don't think it has to be (no other > uses come to mind right now, though). You could use the same argument against :user, it probably should be :mailbox or :maildrop, mailbox is itself a bit ambiguous. If you used :folder then you could replace :user with :cabinet ;^), I think that Mulberry already does. /Michael Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20802 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20798 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2DJbms12749; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:48 -0500 Message-ID: <38CD4365.402408C7@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:09 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Salmon CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve subaddress extension draft References: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> <38CD3D85.6CEDC355@uab.ericsson.se> <38CD3E3A.CF1B5A49@oceana.com> <38CD406B.D18A1B65@uab.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Michael Salmon wrote: > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > Michael Salmon wrote: > > > > > > Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > > > > > I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against > > > > user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, > > > > from: > > > > > > > > http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt > > > > > > > > I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional > > > > arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all > > > > comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out > > > > suggestion :^) are welcome. > > > > > > > > BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the > > > > latest version of CMU Sieve. > > > > > > It is usually called a detailed or detail address. > > > > I know, I used ":detail" as one of the optional args. But what do you > > call the capability, "detail", "detailed", "detailed-address"? None of > > these seemed to work very well. > > I think that "detailed-address" is as good as "subaddress" but perhaps > you should focus on the fact that you are writing to a folder and name > the capability "folder-addressing" and then rename the address selector > to ":folder". I think that the capability and the selector should be > related. I agree that "detailed-address" is a better description, but don't you think its a little long for a require line? I was hoping to come up with a meaningful, yet succinct capability identifier. As far as ":folder", I didn't want to make any assumptions as to the nature of the detailed address. I would agree that in most cases the "detail" probably is a folder, but I don't think it has to be (no other uses come to mind right now, though). This is a good discussion. Hopefully some others will chime in and we can get some more ideas and come to some sort of consensus. Regards, Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19032 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19028 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2DIdss11107 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:39:54 -0500 Message-ID: <38CD35D2.73551A7D@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:39:14 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Sieve subaddress extension draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I just wrote a draft for an extension to allow comparing against user+detail addresses. It can be obtained using either http or ftp, from: http://www.oceana.com/ftp/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-subaddress-00.txt I'm not crazy about the names of the capability or the optional arguments, so if anyone has any better suggestions... As always, all comments/suggestions/flames (flames MUST have a well thought out suggestion :^) are welcome. BTW, both this extension and the regex extension are implemented in the latest version of CMU Sieve. Regards, Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05773 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05767 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp1.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2B2wYs25621 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:58:34 -0500 Message-ID: <38C9B673.A4361407@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:58:59 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve regex extension draft update References: <38C97EC3.564EEDB8@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > > An updated version of this draft can be obtained from > ftp://ftp/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt Sorry. Obviously, only I can reach this server with a non-fully qualified name. Here is the complete URL. ftp://ftp.oceana.com/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28782 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28778 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e2AN1ts19357 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:01:59 -0500 Message-ID: <38C97EC3.564EEDB8@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:01:23 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Sieve regex extension draft update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: An updated version of this draft can be obtained from ftp://ftp/pub/drafts/draft-murchison-sieve-regex-01.txt All comments and suggestions are welcome. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04763 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04759 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp0.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e231bCs03337; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:37:12 -0500 Message-ID: <38BF1751.7A4ECCDE@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:37:21 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > I'm pretty busy at the moment. I will try and get a draft out soon. > If everyone is fine with the semantic I want changed, then I'll change > it in the document and hopefully get it out sometime next week, and > then head for last call. > > I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same > time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read > it and send me corrections. Unless I'm reading this line from [VACATION] incorrectly: "If the parameter given to ":days" is greater than the minimum value, then the minimum value is used instead." Shouldn't this read "less than" instead of "greater than"? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10688 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10684 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10969; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:10:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:11:30 -0500 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Tim Showalter , Ken Murchison Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension Message-ID: <753890.3160923090@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0b8 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 2:02 PM -0800 the entity known as Tim Showalter wrote: > > I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same > time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read > it and send me corrections. To which Matthew Wall offers this response on Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:11:23 -0500: Agreed, and I will 8-). - mw Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09584 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09580 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AML00051; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:02:47 -0800 (PST) X-Spook: Lon Horiuchi Ron Brown NORAD Croatian Ft. Meade Mossad DES To: Matthew Wall Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Ken Murchison Subject: Re: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 01 Mar 2000 14:02:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: Matthew Wall's message of "Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:07:07 -0500" Message-ID: <7d3dqajqlp.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Matthew Wall writes: > -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 9:39 AM -0500 the entity known as Ken > Murchison wrote: > > When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or > > two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the > > base spec. > > Yah, in point of fact, let me generalize this and suggest there's enough > modest implementation experience that we should do a last round of > revisions and submit this for extended last call. Time's a wastin'. I'm pretty busy at the moment. I will try and get a draft out soon. If everyone is fine with the semantic I want changed, then I'll change it in the document and hopefully get it out sometime next week, and then head for last call. I believe I should also last call the vacation extension at the same time. If you happen to agree, now would be an excellent time to read it and send me corrections. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08596 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08592 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10753; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:07:07 -0500 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Ken Murchison , Tim Showalter Subject: Is: draft status; was: Re: Sieve regex extension Message-ID: <304959.3160915627@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <38BD2B95.7B1BF5E7@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0b8 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: -- On Wednesday, March 1, 2000 9:39 AM -0500 the entity known as Ken Murchison wrote: > > When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or > two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the > base spec. To which Matthew Wall offers this response on Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:05:14 -0500: Yah, in point of fact, let me generalize this and suggest there's enough modest implementation experience that we should do a last round of revisions and submit this for extended last call. Time's a wastin'. ??? - Matt Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02801 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02797 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e21EdMs18173; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:39:22 -0500 Message-ID: <38BD2B95.7B1BF5E7@oceana.com> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:39:17 -0500 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Sieve regex extension References: <38A1CB49.66FE6718@oceana.com> <7dn1ojl6wk.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Randall Gellens writes: > > > At 3:17 PM -0500 2/9/00, Ken Murchison wrote: > > > > >CMU Sieve currently strips all single backslashes in quoted strings, > > >which seems to be one reasonable implementation based on the working in > > >the spec. This behavior requires that any escaped meta-character in a > > >regex must be preceded by two backslashes. This behavior also effects > > >the :matches match-type in the base spec and imapflags as defined in > > >draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-02. > > > > > >I am not up to speed on the discussions that led to the current wording > > >in the spec, but I'd like to see all escape sequences passed through > > >untouched, or perhaps be context-sensitive as hinted at in the spec. > > >But, "this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong." > > > > I agree with you. Two backslashes should mean one literal backslash. > > "\." in a regexp should mean a literal dot. "\\." should mean a > > literal backslash followed by any character. Otherwise it's too > > confusing. > > I believe that this is impossible to correctly parse without passing > information between the parser and the lexer in a very unsavory way. > In particular, if you're trying to decide what a backslash means at > the lexer level, you can't, and you have to wait until the string is > used in context. > > I'm not happy that the spec says what it does. It was a mistake. > > For consistancy, I believe only \ and \" should be significant in a > string; to escape a metacharacter, the syntax should be "\\?" (i.e., > match a literal question mark). The sequence "\\\?" is not > syntactically legal. > > Programmers can grasp this (it's what C, Perl, and some Lisp > implementations do) and no one else will understand it, no matter what > we decide. > > I would like to change the spec to reflect the behavior implemented in > CMU's Sieve implementation. Tim, When might you get to this? Alexey suggested that I add an example or two to the regex spec, but I want this to jive with the wording in the base spec. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp