From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 8 09:10:30 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10131 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10123 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e78GE2M18803; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:14:07 -0400 Message-ID: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:10:24 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Alexey, A couple nits/comments/questions on your latest draft: Where's the page breaks and page headers? :^) > # > # Example Sieve Filter > # Declare any optional features or extension used by the script > # > require ["fileinto", "reject", "imapflags"]; Any reason why "reject" is required and mentioned below, but never used? > # > # Reject any large messages > # > if size :over 1M > { > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > { > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; This should be: addflag ["\\Flagged", "$Big"]; > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" > } > fileinto "Big messages"; > } > > if header :is "From" "grandma@example.net" > { > addflag ["\\Answered", "$MDNSent"]; > # If the message is bigger than 1Mb it will be marked as "\Flagged $Big \Answered $MDNSent" Unless I'm completely off the mark (and my cmu-sieve implementation is incorrect), "\Flagged $Big" will never be set on these messages, because these flags are only set 'if header :is "From" "boss@company.com"'. I think you want the first test in the script to be something like: if size :over 1M { addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" { # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" fileinto "Big messages"; } } > # when filed into mailbox "grandma". If the message is shorter than 1Mb it will be marked as > # "\Answered $MDNSent" > fileinto "GrandMa"; # move to "GrandMa" folder > } > Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 8 21:20:38 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08753 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demo.esys.ca (IDENT:root@demo.esys.ca [207.167.22.130]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08749 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-029-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.29]) by demo.esys.ca (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.2)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01382; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:24:34 -0600 Message-ID: <3990D744.90B2DEFC@messagingdirect.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 22:00:04 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ken Murchison CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > Alexey, > > A couple nits/comments/questions on your latest draft: > > Where's the page breaks and page headers? :^) I've decided to add them at the later stage. > > # > > # Example Sieve Filter > > # Declare any optional features or extension used by the script > > # > > require ["fileinto", "reject", "imapflags"]; > > Any reason why "reject" is required and mentioned below, but never used? > > > # > > # Reject any large messages > > # > > if size :over 1M > > { > > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > > { > > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; > > This should be: addflag ["\\Flagged", "$Big"]; Right. > > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" > > } > > fileinto "Big messages"; > > } > > > > if header :is "From" "grandma@example.net" > > { > > addflag ["\\Answered", "$MDNSent"]; > > # If the message is bigger than 1Mb it will be marked as "\Flagged $Big \Answered $MDNSent" > > Unless I'm completely off the mark (and my cmu-sieve implementation is > incorrect), "\Flagged $Big" will never be set on these messages, because > these flags are only set 'if header :is "From" "boss@company.com"'. Correct. Message will be filed into "Big messages" in all cases and only if "from" is "boss@company.com" two flags will be set. > I think you want the first test in the script to be something like: > > if size :over 1M > { > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > { > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into > mailbox "Big messages" > fileinto "Big messages"; > } > } Alexey From owner-ietf-mta-filters Fri Aug 11 16:23:55 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15386 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15382 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAA20838; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Aug 2000 16:24:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tim Showalter X-Spook: quiche Marxist supercomputer White Water genetic colonel South Africa To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Hi. Ken Murchison pointed out that vacation doesn't define what an address is supposed to look like beyond a string. I am inclined to forbid comments, and define that an address is supposed to be only the stuff between the <>s. I would like to add verbage to the draft and state that this is all that's allowed. Ken thought the phrase part might be interesting for GUIs, and I'm not sure how to handle that. Should address allow for a phrase part, or worse, comments? If so, I believe only the useful parts (i.e., user@domain) should be significant. Ot's probably necessary to allow just user (i.e., no @domain) for OSes/MTAs that have concepts of local mail. I will probably make this a SHOULD since it might not be appropriate for some implementations. If an address is syntactically or semantically bogus, I think the right thing to do is to just ignore it, and we probably need text that says that, too. I'm looking for a second opinion, especially on the question as to whether phrases should be allowed/forbidden. Incidentially, I said in Pittsburgh that I had sent in sieve-12 and vacation-04. I was wrong; I had sent sieve-12 to myself, and didn't realize it until way too late. I may have maligned the I-D editor, but they were doing a great job as usual. sieve-12 and vacation-04 are now in an I-D repository near you. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Fri Aug 11 19:15:23 2000 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23807 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23803 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7C2EIM30129 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:14:18 -0400 Message-ID: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:16:21 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Hi. Ken Murchison pointed out that vacation doesn't define what an > address is supposed to look like beyond a string. More specifically, section 2.4.2.3 of [SIEVE] states that addresses must be compliant with RFC822, but doesn't state what part(s) of RFC822 addresses are accepted (ie, 'address', 'mailbox', 'addr-spec', etc) BTW, I think this same discussion applies to redirect addresses. Hopefully we can decide on a syntax that is consistent for both. > I am inclined to forbid comments, and define that an address is supposed > to be only the stuff between the <>s. I would like to add verbage to > the draft and state that this is all that's allowed. Ken thought the > phrase part might be interesting for GUIs, and I'm not sure how to > handle that. My point on this was that some user-friendly script creation tool might simply pull addresses out of an addressbook (LDAP, MySQL, proprietary, etc) which most likely would contain a phrase (ie, "Sieve Mailing List "). Since this is what most modern MUAs do, I don't think we want to prohibit this in scripts. > Should address allow for a phrase part, or worse, comments? IMHO, Yes. > If so, I > believe only the useful parts (i.e., user@domain) should be significant. For determining vacation behavior, I agree. > Ot's probably necessary to allow just user (i.e., no @domain) for > OSes/MTAs that have concepts of local mail. I will probably make this a > SHOULD since it might not be appropriate for some implementations. I agree. > If an address is syntactically or semantically bogus, I think the right > thing to do is to just ignore it, and we probably need text that says > that, too. In the context of vacation, this might be a good thing. But for redirect, I think the script should be kicked out so that the user knows that mail can't/won't be redirected to the address(es) in question. The problem with two different semantics however is that when parsing a script we would have to determine address validity based on context. So I'd like to use the same semantics for both, if possible. > I'm looking for a second opinion, especially on the question as to > whether phrases should be allowed/forbidden. FWIW, here's what cmu-sieve currently does based on preliminary discussions Tim and I had before IETF. - The grammar for addresses allowed in vacation and redirect is the following: sieve-address = addr-spec / phrase "<" addr-spec ">" where addr-spec and phrase are as defined in 822. Note that like 822, this grammar does NOT prohibit comments. For those without 822 handy, this removes the groups and routes. - The syntax of the these addresses are checked at parse-time, and if incorrect, causes the sieve engine to stop processing just like any other syntax error. - When determining whether a message was addressed directly to the recipient, only the addr-spec part of the :addresses are compared against the To, Cc, and Bcc headers. If we want to allow for local addresses as Tim mentions, I would simply augment the grammar above as follows: addr-spec /= local-part Personally, I think the CMU implementation (shameless plug) provides for the most flexibility with the least amount of insanity. This being said, I'm willing to concede any and all points :^) Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 17 11:15:11 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28265 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28261 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02303 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:16:48 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: sieve upload/download mechanisms Message-ID: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0d1 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented for sieve script upload/download. I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? Would it be possible for server vendors to describe in some detail how their implementations work for interoperability? I wonder if there should be some BCP document about this? The problem is that as a client vendor I need to know how to get scripts uploaded/downloaded to the various servers. I'd rather not have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that looks as if it is the case right now. -- Cyrus Daboo From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 17 12:45:55 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00330 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc.telia.se (mailc.telia.se [131.115.15.18]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00326 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc.telia.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailc.telia.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22422 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:45:49 +0200 (METDST) Received: from barbar.josefsson.org (t4o72p7.telia.com [62.20.151.127]) by mailc.telia.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA22408; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:45:43 +0200 (METDST) To: Cyrus Daboo Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: sieve upload/download mechanisms References: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> From: Simon Josefsson In-Reply-To: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Date: 17 Aug 2000 21:36:10 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cyrus Daboo writes: > I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented for > sieve script upload/download. > > I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's > managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? My (unreleased) sieve support for a mail client I'm working on uses CMU's "installsieve". I'm not sure if that's the same as managesieve. (http://www.nada.kth.se/datorer/e-post/sieve-at-nada.shtml describes usage of installsieve to some detail) > I'd rather not have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that > looks as if it is the case right now. Yes. :-/ From owner-ietf-mta-filters Fri Aug 18 10:01:08 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21748 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clea.qualcomm.com (clea.qualcomm.com [129.46.2.98]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21744 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (vpnap-g1-012030.qualcomm.com [10.13.12.30]) by clea.qualcomm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.0) with ESMTP id KAA09860; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> References: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Eudora v5.0b8 for Macintosh Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:58:45 -0700 To: Cyrus Daboo , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Randall Gellens Subject: Re: sieve upload/download mechanisms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 2:16 PM -0400 8/17/00, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented > for sieve script upload/download. Our prototype code uses the Sieve ACAP profile, which is very easy to implement in clients and servers (and upwards-compatible with full ACAP). I've got preliminary code to integrate this into Qpopper. > > I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's > managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? Would it be > possible for server vendors to describe in some detail how their > implementations work for interoperability? I wonder if there should > be some BCP document about this? You left out email, which I've been told will be supported in some servers. I think this should be standardized. A BCP would work if the mechanism is an unmodified existing one, otherwise I think a standards-track document is needed. > > The problem is that as a client vendor I need to know how to get > scripts uploaded/downloaded to the various servers. I'd rather not > have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that looks as if it is > the case right now. Exactly. > > -- > Cyrus Daboo From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 22 14:37:01 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14348 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14344 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB27440; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: New World Order Vickie Weaver smuggle Watergate nuclear Ortega Kibo To: Ken Murchison Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 14:37:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:16:21 -0400" Message-ID: <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: After some conversation, Ken and I have agreed on the following format for addresses: All of RFC822 must be parsed; supirous comments are mandatory; phrases must be specified in Esperanto; all ASCII text must be in ROT-13, and all non-ASCII text must be in modified UTF-7 with all the letters printed in the reverse order that they are expected to be displayed in. I hope this isn't a problem for anyone. The following is not a troll: I thought about the format for addresses at some time and I believe that we should allow full RFC822 addresses because Sieve implementations are required to parse RFC822 addresses anyway. Anyone who has implmented or considered implenting otherwise, please speak up now. I don't particularly care about error handling in this case; anyone who has an opinion, please speak up now. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 22 17:12:26 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17568 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17564 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB28177; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: Qaddafi White Water terrorist Ruby Ridge nuclear Craig Livingstone jihad To: Alexey Melnikov , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 17:13:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:10:24 -0400" Message-ID: <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that effectively munges a global variable. My primary problem with the current approach that this is the first Sieve command to have a side effect that affects another action (other than the reject vs. keep interaction stuff, which is somewhat more minor). The way this stuff interacts is potentially annoying. Given the existance of tagged optional arguments in the document as is, I would prefer a different approach. Assume for a moment the existance of either functions or a preprocessor, both things that have been discussed and are likely to be developed later. In either case (they're more or less the same without varibles, anyway), addflag/removeflag/setflag affect global state, and it may not be obvious how these things interact. Until now, it has always been safe to add code to the bottom of a script and assume that that code can stand alone. However, arbitrary flags can be added, and there's no way to figure out what flags are set, it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no reliable way to clear. I would prefer if fileinto and keep were extended to take an optional :flags argument which would describe the flags to be added to the message, i.e., if header :matches "Subject" "ADV:*" { keep :flags "\\Deleted" ; } Incidentially, among the nits in v03, the grammar at the end of the document should be removed entirely. It doesn't match the Sieve grammar at all (which doesn't define action, for instance). It is not necessary; the existing Sieve grammar encompasses everything represented here. However, the "Syntax" lines in the base document need to be on each command to clarify the types. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 22 17:54:24 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18115 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18111 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7N0sCA11241; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:56:31 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > The following is not a troll: > > I thought about the format for addresses at some time and I believe that > we should allow full RFC822 addresses because Sieve implementations are > required to parse RFC822 addresses anyway. Anyone who has implmented or > considered implenting otherwise, please speak up now. I don't > particularly care about error handling in this case; anyone who has an > opinion, please speak up now. So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow groups. I personally don't care either way, since all I have to do is just change the start state in the cmu-sieve yacc grammar for addresses :) What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a MAY? Are we going to use the same format for both vacation and redirect? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 22 19:07:35 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25295 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25288 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB28567; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: constitution cypherpunk Honduras Lon Horiuchi colonel David John Oates domestic disruption To: Ken Murchison Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 19:08:45 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:56:31 -0400" Message-ID: <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison writes: > So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which > includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked > about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because > when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow > groups. Uh, let's forbid group and route, and limit it to a single address. I don't remember how to say it in RFC822. I don't want a single string containing multiple addresses. We ignored groups for address (I think) and I believe that's the right way to go here. > What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > MAY? It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > Are we going to use the same format for both vacation and redirect? I've submitted the Sieve spec for last call; I suppose I can take this as a comment on the draft, and fix the vacation draft to point to it. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Aug 23 06:28:32 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA15603 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15599 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7NDSOA32707; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: <39A3D059.12F00315@oceana.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:23:37 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Ken Murchison writes: > > > So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which > > includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked > > about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because > > when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow > > groups. > > Uh, let's forbid group and route, and limit it to a single address. I > don't remember how to say it in RFC822. Here's what I came up with and is currently used in Cyrus: sieve-address = addr-spec / phrase "<" addr-spec ">" where addr-spec and phrase are as defined in RFC822. Since I posted this earlier with no comment from anyone, its either complete shit, nobody read it or nobody has any objections. Let's assume the latter :) > > What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > > MAY? > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. If you want to throw a grammar element at it, it might be something like: addr-spec /= local-part Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Aug 23 23:21:45 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA04334 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rembrandt.esys.ca (IDENT:root@rembrandt.esys.ca [198.161.92.131]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04330 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-014-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.14]) (authenticated) by rembrandt.esys.ca (8.11.0.Beta0/8.11.0.Beta0) with ESMTP id e7O6M9l18422; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:09 -0600 Message-ID: <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:08 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. > I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional > argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that > effectively munges a global variable. I like this better but I remeber some objections. Also it is extremely difficult to explain this "global variable" concept to non-programmers. > ... > Until now, it has always been safe to add code to the bottom of a script > and assume that that code can stand alone. However, arbitrary flags can > be added, and there's no way to figure out what flags are set, Correct. > it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no > reliable > way to clear. You can always unset all known flags. This is ugly but works. I miss test for set flags :-(. > ... > Incidentially, among the nits in v03, the grammar at the end of the > document should be removed entirely. It doesn't match the Sieve grammar > at all (which doesn't define action, for instance). It is not > necessary; the existing Sieve grammar encompasses everything represented > here. However, the "Syntax" lines in the base document need to be > on each command to clarify the types. I will look at this. Alexey From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 06:59:33 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA21207 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21202 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7ODxWA18503; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:59:33 -0400 Message-ID: <39A5291E.CA312D56@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:54:38 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org CC: Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. > > I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional > argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that > effectively munges a global variable. > > My primary problem with the current approach that this is the first > Sieve command to have a side effect that affects another action (other > than the reject vs. keep interaction stuff, which is somewhat more > minor). The way this stuff interacts is potentially annoying. Given > the existance of tagged optional arguments in the document as is, I > would prefer a different approach. I agree with this in principal, and would not be opposed to this change. However, having implemented the current draft in cmu-sieve and being a user of the functionality, I'll try to make a (possibly weak) case for why the global variable concept can be advantageous. Below is a subset of a script that I currently use: require ["fileinto", "imapflags", "subaddress"]; # mark (flag) all messages from Tim Showalter if address :user "from" "tjs" { mark; } # file mailing list stuff if address :localpart :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "ietf-mta-filters" { fileinto "INBOX.ietf.mta-filters"; } elsif address :localpart :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "ietf-imapext" { fileinto "INBOX.ietf.imapext"; } elsif address :user :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "info-cyrus" { fileinto "INBOX.cyrus"; } The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. This is the only use of the global variable concept that I have come across, so if the consensus is to make the change to an optional argument, I would be inconvenienced, but not overly disappointed. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 08:14:05 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA25679 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25666 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20916; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:16:16 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Message-ID: <7910000.967130176@socrates.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <39A5291E.CA312D56@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4a4 (Linux/PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On 08/24/00 09:54:38 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I > can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless > of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional > argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. I agree with Ken on this. I think it is useful to be able to set flags globally. I also think its useful to be able to set flags on a one-time basis for keep and fileinto commands as well. So I would actually argue for both forms of imapflags to be available: as a global command and as a parameter for fileinto and keep! -- Cyrus Daboo From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 09:17:37 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01660 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01656 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7OGH5A23043; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:17:05 -0400 Message-ID: <39A5495A.4DF44C48@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:12:10 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cyrus Daboo CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <7910000.967130176@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cyrus Daboo wrote: > > --On 08/24/00 09:54:38 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > > > The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I > > can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless > > of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional > > argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. > > I agree with Ken on this. I think it is useful to be able to set flags > globally. I also think its useful to be able to set flags on a one-time > basis for keep and fileinto commands as well. So I would actually argue for > both forms of imapflags to be available: as a global command and as a > parameter for fileinto and keep! Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with something like: keep :flags []; or keep :flags ""; or keep :flags "None"; Hmmm... By allowing both types (local and global) we're kind of getting into scopes here, is this going to get too messy? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 10:21:39 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02554 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02549 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21298; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:23:53 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Ken Murchison cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Message-ID: <3730000.967137832@socrates.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <39A5495A.4DF44C48@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4a4 (Linux/PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On 08/24/00 12:12:10 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be > the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags > and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but > want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with > something like: > > keep :flags []; or > keep :flags ""; or > keep :flags "None"; We could opt for an IMAP like syntax here: keep :flags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags keep :flags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are ignored -- Cyrus Daboo From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 13:07:02 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05085 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05081 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB35924; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: fissionable NWO KGB munitions clones Treasury assassination To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 24 Aug 2000 13:08:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: Alexey Melnikov's message of "Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:08 -0600" Message-ID: <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.secondary.com id NAA05082 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Alexey Melnikov writes: > > it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no > > reliable way to clear. > > You can always unset all known flags. This is ugly but works. > I miss test for set flags :-(. That isn't work; if an include system has set a global flag like "Youll-never-guess-the-name-of-this-flag-Bz28QzBNF", you can't really reliably unset it. This is a degenrate case, but it's still kinda bad. So the other thing that occurred to me is this, and it kinda scares me: if we're going to go down the path of global variables, we might as well have a $default_flags global variable and use that along with :flags. Something tells me that the operations on lists of stuff are going to be reasonably constant. I am not convinced of this, but in light of some comments Patrik Fältström made, we might want to go down the path of variables anyway. If we're going to, basic list operations are going to be essential as well. I believe that if we can choose between setting the default/global flags and setting flags on a single keep/fileinto, we should go with a single keep/fileinto, and discuss global flags later. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Thu Aug 24 14:13:33 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05750 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.84]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05746 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.andrew.cmu.edu (PENGUIN.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.122.2]) by smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e7OLDvg16841; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:13:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:13:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200008242113.e7OLDvg16841@smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu> From: Lawrence Greenfield X-Mailer: BatIMail version 3.2 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-reply-to: <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: From: Tim Showalter Date: 24 Aug 2000 13:08:24 -0700 [...] I believe that if we can choose between setting the default/global flags and setting flags on a single keep/fileinto, we should go with a single keep/fileinto, and discuss global flags later. I agree with this. Variables are the Right way to go on this. Larry From owner-ietf-mta-filters Sun Aug 27 14:18:53 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13561 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rembrandt.esys.ca (IDENT:root@rembrandt.esys.ca [198.161.92.131]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13557 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-037-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.37]) (authenticated) by rembrandt.esys.ca (8.11.0.Beta0/8.11.0.Beta0) with ESMTP id e7RLJ8L14869; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:17 -0600 Message-ID: <39A985CB.AEE552EC@messagingdirect.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:07 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cyrus Daboo CC: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <3730000.967137832@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I am in favour of keeping both syntaxes, because Ken showed usability of glabal variable use. Cyrus Daboo wrote: > --On 08/24/00 12:12:10 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > > > Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be > > the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags > > and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but > > want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with > > something like: > > > > keep :flags []; or > > keep :flags ""; or > > keep :flags "None"; > > We could opt for an IMAP like syntax here: > > keep :flags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags > > keep :flags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed > > keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are > ignored Sometimes you want to use only global flags, so I would rather the following: keep :globalflags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags keep :globalflags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed keep :globalflags - use only global flags keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are ignored Alexey From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 16:09:37 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00117 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00112 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21475; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id QAA10174; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:08:48 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter , Ken Murchison cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a >> MAY? > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. What happens when the MTA is upgraded to support multiple virtual domains? What about vanity domains? Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> which share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" address act differently depending upon which address the message being filtered was sent to? - Chris From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 16:27:54 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00518 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00514 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB50947; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: genetic strategic North Korea Waco, Texas DES White Water militia To: Chris Newman Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 16:29:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: Chris Newman's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:08:48 -0700" Message-ID: <7ditsl2cdj.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman writes: > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > >> MAY? > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. > > > What happens when the MTA is upgraded to support multiple virtual domains? > What about vanity domains? > > > Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> which > share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" address act > differently depending upon which address the message being filtered was sent > to? I don't understand what those addresses indicate in either redirect or vacation. vacation doesn't currently specify that addresses are supposed to be wildcards, and that wasn't my intent when I wrote it. In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part being the only information available. Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out since there's no domain. I don't want vacation to trigger because I was bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger only when the mail is to , i.e., no domain at all. I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may be. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 17:17:42 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01684 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01680 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09687; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id RAA15483; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:16:50 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7ditsl2cdj.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Monday, August 28, 2000 16:29 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: > Chris Newman writes: >> Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> >> which share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" >> address act differently depending upon which address the message being >> filtered was sent to? > > I don't understand what those addresses indicate in either redirect or > vacation. vacation doesn't currently specify that addresses are > supposed to be wildcards, and that wasn't my intent when I wrote it. I was using shorthand. I was suggesting a scenario where goes to my mailbox, as does any message with a domain part of "cnewman.isp.com" (regardless of the local part). > In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part > being the only information available. > > Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out > since there's no domain. That means the address can't be resolved, because there could be 200 different mailboxes which receive mail addressed to the local part "cnewman" in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is meaningless to me. The only concept that might have meaning is "same domain as in RCPT TO being processed", but for a given sieve script, that might have many different values. > I don't want vacation to trigger because I was > bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If > I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger > only when the mail is to , > i.e., no domain at all. It sounds like you need a distinguished syntax for "any recipient address associated with this sieve script". So add that (perhaps "<>" would work for that). Then supporting subaddresses, vanity domains and their ilk becomes an implementation detail rather than a scripting nightmare. > I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may > be. If tjs@domain1.com and tjs@domain2.com are two different users, then which one does "tjs" refer to? - Chris From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 17:50:59 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02006 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02002 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB51311; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: strategic Vickie Weaver BATF security Uzi NWO Kennedy To: Chris Newman Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 17:52:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: Chris Newman's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:16:50 -0700" Message-ID: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman writes: > I was using shorthand. I was suggesting a scenario where > goes to my mailbox, as does any message with a domain part of > "cnewman.isp.com" (regardless of the local part). I'm sorry; I got a bit confused there. > > In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part > > being the only information available. > > > > Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out > > since there's no domain. > > That means the address can't be resolved, because there could be 200 > different mailboxes which receive mail addressed to the local part "cnewman" > in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is meaningless to > me. The only concept that might have meaning is "same domain as in RCPT TO > being processed", but for a given sieve script, that might have many > different values. I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local addresses useful. > > I don't want vacation to trigger because I was > > bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If > > I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger > > only when the mail is to , > > i.e., no domain at all. > > It sounds like you need a distinguished syntax for "any recipient address > associated with this sieve script". So add that (perhaps "<>" would work > for that). Then supporting subaddresses, vanity domains and their ilk > becomes an implementation detail rather than a scripting nightmare. "Any recipient address associated with this script" is built-in and already there. > > I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may > > be. > > If tjs@domain1.com and tjs@domain2.com are two different users, then which > one does "tjs" refer to? I would expect that "tjs" would refer to the tjs in the SMTP server's canonical hostname. If the server is called mail.domain1.com, it refers to the former; if the server is called vdom.isp.com, "tjs" refers to neither address. If the box doesn't have a canonical hostname, or the box doesn't ever support local email addresses, the script can be rejected, or the address can be ignored (one of these behaviors should be specified, and it should be the latter). If virtual domains are involved, then it is unlikely that anyone can refer to me as local user "tjs" anyway. Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 19:38:12 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA15620 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.84]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15616 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.andrew.cmu.edu (PENGUIN.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.122.2]) by smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e7T2cug20135; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:38:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:38:56 -0400 Message-Id: <200008290238.e7T2cug20135@smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu> From: Lawrence Greenfield X-Mailer: BatIMail version 3.2 To: Chris Newman , Tim Showalter Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-reply-to: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 17:52:16 -0700 > in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is > meaningless to me. The only concept that might have meaning is > "same domain as in RCPT TO being processed", but for a given > sieve script, that might have many different values. I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local addresses useful. As a server implementor, I'd love to tell clients to not throw this unqualified names at me. I'd like to stick this work with the client and I think the client is more than capable of doing this. I'd rather not guess what the client is going to do. I'm not sure what functionality is added by the extension---clients should be able to throw a domain on the RHS. Larry From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 20:56:47 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23173 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23167 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7T3v4A22868; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: <39AB3525.86445C90@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:59:33 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Newman CC: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman wrote: > > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > >> MAY? > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. I wasn't advocating local addresses. I'd rather see FQDNs. Tim had mentioned this before, and I was just clarifying what he was thinking so I can make the appropriate (if any) changes in cmu-sieve. Actually, since there had been literally no traffic on this topic, I thought Tim and I were having a private discussion :^) Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Mon Aug 28 21:28:46 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA27354 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27347 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB51872; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: Ft. Meade David John Oates Marxist Serbian Panama militia counter-intelligence To: Ken Murchison Cc: Chris Newman , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> <39AB3525.86445C90@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 21:30:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:59:33 -0400" Message-ID: <7dzolwzo2z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison writes: > Chris Newman wrote: > > > > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > > wrote: > > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > > >> MAY? > > > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. > > I wasn't advocating local addresses. I'd rather see FQDNs. Tim had > mentioned this before, and I was just clarifying what he was thinking so > I can make the appropriate (if any) changes in cmu-sieve. okay, okay, let's just drop 'em. :-) Tim From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 29 12:00:44 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23303 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23299 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04368; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id MAA02940; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:59:51 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <579669.3176539191@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Monday, August 28, 2000 17:52 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: > I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and > will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use > FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local > addresses useful. There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed in any way by a standard. Unqualified local parts are not legal by 821 or 822. They should always be treated as a Sieve syntax error. Perhaps the protocol used to upload a Sieve script could provide a domain which clients may choose to append to unqualified local parts. - Chris From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 29 12:47:15 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23956 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23952 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7TJlaA18261; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:47:36 -0400 Message-ID: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:50:07 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Newman CC: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <579669.3176539191@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman wrote: > > --On Monday, August 28, 2000 17:52 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > > I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and > > will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use > > FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local > > addresses useful. > > There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in > headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed in > any way by a standard. I agree, but for sake of argument, lets assume that Sieve is being used with an internal MTA which is setup to handle local addresses (no domain). If someone can send intraoffice mail to "ken", then I need to be able to put "ken" in the ":addresses" option of my vacation rule. Likewise, I should be able to do a redirect to "tjs" in this environment. I wouldn't setup my environment this way, but I think what Tim is saying is that Sieve might be used in such an environment and should be locally adaptable. I don't see where there is an interoperability problem because this would be a local configuration decision, and the local addresses are only going to be useful if the corresponding MTA can handle them. Obviously, these addresses would never see the public network. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp From owner-ietf-mta-filters Tue Aug 29 13:29:25 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24776 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24772 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11167; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id NAA10467; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:28:17 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Ken Murchison cc: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, August 29, 2000 15:50 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > Chris Newman wrote: >> There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in >> headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed >> in any way by a standard. > > I agree, but for sake of argument, lets assume that Sieve is being used > with an internal MTA which is setup to handle local addresses (no > domain). If someone can send intraoffice mail to "ken", then I need to > be able to put "ken" in the ":addresses" option of my vacation rule. > Likewise, I should be able to do a redirect to "tjs" in this > environment. I fully understand the scenario, and it's almost identical to the 8-bit header scenario I mentioned. > I wouldn't setup my environment this way, but I think what Tim is saying > is that Sieve might be used in such an environment and should be locally > adaptable. We certainly can't stop anyone from doing that if they wish, but neither should it be standards-compliant syntax. > I don't see where there is an interoperability problem because this > would be a local configuration decision, and the local addresses are > only going to be useful if the corresponding MTA can handle them. > Obviously, these addresses would never see the public network. Here's the interop problem: Suppose I make a client to compose and upload Sieve scripts. Either it refuses to allow unqualified local parts, in which case it interoperates with everything, except your "local" server. Or it permits them, in which case whether (and how) it interoperates with a given server is unpredictable when an unqualified local part is used. Indeed I think it would be quite useful to have a sieve client which can test the script locally by running messages through the script. But such a client couldn't perform a deterministic test unless unqualified local parts were banned or it had a 100% reliable way to discover what the server would do with unqualified local parts. - Chris From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Aug 30 06:59:13 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26545 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.mail.nl.demon.net (hermes.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.72.197]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26541 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from samhain.noc.nl.demon.net ([194.159.72.214] ident=exim) by hermes.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 13U8Oz-000IHa-00 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:59:41 +0200 Received: from pdp by samhain.noc.nl.demon.net with local id 13U8Oz-0008eJ-00 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:59:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:59:41 +0200 From: Phil Pennock To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <20000830155941.A33194@samhain.noc.nl.demon.net> Mail-Followup-To: Phil Pennock , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org References: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com>; from "Chris Newman" on Tue 29 Aug 2000 (13:28 -0700) Organisation: Demon Internet Netherlands Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: (First post - I've been lurking) On 2000-08-29 at 13:28 -0700, Chris Newman wrote: > Suppose I make a client to compose and upload Sieve scripts. Either it > refuses to allow unqualified local parts, in which case it interoperates > with everything, except your "local" server. Or it permits them, in which > case whether (and how) it interoperates with a given server is > unpredictable when an unqualified local part is used. require "domainless"; > Indeed I think it would be quite useful to have a sieve client which can > test the script locally by running messages through the script. But such a > client couldn't perform a deterministic test unless unqualified local parts > were banned or it had a 100% reliable way to discover what the server would > do with unqualified local parts. If the server accepts them, and you see them, it's passed them to you. :^) The server may or may not have chosen to qualify them with a default; if it doesn't, the installation should allow "domainless". If this is SHOULD NOT, then there's no need to even code the support for it. If someone wants a horrendously broken system, they can hack the extension in themselves. So the question is what _you_ do with the messages, because you've received them. Specify that ``require "domainless";'' changes the syntax of addr-spec to not require ``"@" domain'', and note some of the problems which could arise from simply changing the grammar. Make it scary enough, and admin will hopefully get a clue, and as part of their upgrade to support sieve they'll choose to qualify local addresses automatically in the MTA. If the MUA doesn't use the MTA for local addresses (???) then the messages will never reach a sieve filter. $0.02, -- Phil Pennock Demon Internet Nederland -- Network Operations Centre -- Systems Administrator Libertes philosophica. Sales: +31 20 422 20 00 Support: 0800 33 6666 8 From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Aug 30 15:50:39 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23092 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23088 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05119 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:51:17 -0400 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Non-Tech: Sieve article in Network World Message-ID: <110841724.3176650277@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0828sieve.html Made the front page in the paper edition, which also has a neato-graphic. Some of the usual suspects are quoted. FYI - matt From owner-ietf-mta-filters Wed Aug 30 16:06:53 2000 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23407 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbes.spamblaster.com (IDENT:root@sbes.spamblaster.com [216.151.192.90]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23403 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sbes.spamblaster.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03021; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:53 -0700 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by sbes.spamblaster.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03005 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:21 -0700 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23092 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23088 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05119 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:51:17 -0400 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Non-Tech: Sieve article in Network World Message-ID: <110841724.3176650277@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: X-PICS: To do!!! X-SB: SpamBlaster Server 1.0.2 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0828sieve.html Made the front page in the paper edition, which also has a neato-graphic. Some of the usual suspects are quoted. FYI - matt Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23407 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbes.spamblaster.com (IDENT:root@sbes.spamblaster.com [216.151.192.90]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23403 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sbes.spamblaster.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03021; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:53 -0700 Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by sbes.spamblaster.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03005 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:06:21 -0700 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23092 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23088 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05119 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:51:17 -0400 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Non-Tech: Sieve article in Network World Message-ID: <110841724.3176650277@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: X-PICS: To do!!! X-SB: SpamBlaster Server 1.0.2 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0828sieve.html Made the front page in the paper edition, which also has a neato-graphic. Some of the usual suspects are quoted. FYI - matt Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23092 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23088 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pasargadae.cyrusoft.com (pasargadae.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.209]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05119 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:51:17 -0400 From: Matthew Wall To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Non-Tech: Sieve article in Network World Message-ID: <110841724.3176650277@pasargadae.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.0 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0828sieve.html Made the front page in the paper edition, which also has a neato-graphic. Some of the usual suspects are quoted. FYI - matt Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26545 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.mail.nl.demon.net (hermes.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.72.197]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26541 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from samhain.noc.nl.demon.net ([194.159.72.214] ident=exim) by hermes.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 13U8Oz-000IHa-00 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:59:41 +0200 Received: from pdp by samhain.noc.nl.demon.net with local id 13U8Oz-0008eJ-00 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:59:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:59:41 +0200 From: Phil Pennock To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <20000830155941.A33194@samhain.noc.nl.demon.net> Mail-Followup-To: Phil Pennock , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org References: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com>; from "Chris Newman" on Tue 29 Aug 2000 (13:28 -0700) Organisation: Demon Internet Netherlands Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: (First post - I've been lurking) On 2000-08-29 at 13:28 -0700, Chris Newman wrote: > Suppose I make a client to compose and upload Sieve scripts. Either it > refuses to allow unqualified local parts, in which case it interoperates > with everything, except your "local" server. Or it permits them, in which > case whether (and how) it interoperates with a given server is > unpredictable when an unqualified local part is used. require "domainless"; > Indeed I think it would be quite useful to have a sieve client which can > test the script locally by running messages through the script. But such a > client couldn't perform a deterministic test unless unqualified local parts > were banned or it had a 100% reliable way to discover what the server would > do with unqualified local parts. If the server accepts them, and you see them, it's passed them to you. :^) The server may or may not have chosen to qualify them with a default; if it doesn't, the installation should allow "domainless". If this is SHOULD NOT, then there's no need to even code the support for it. If someone wants a horrendously broken system, they can hack the extension in themselves. So the question is what _you_ do with the messages, because you've received them. Specify that ``require "domainless";'' changes the syntax of addr-spec to not require ``"@" domain'', and note some of the problems which could arise from simply changing the grammar. Make it scary enough, and admin will hopefully get a clue, and as part of their upgrade to support sieve they'll choose to qualify local addresses automatically in the MTA. If the MUA doesn't use the MTA for local addresses (???) then the messages will never reach a sieve filter. $0.02, -- Phil Pennock Demon Internet Nederland -- Network Operations Centre -- Systems Administrator Libertes philosophica. Sales: +31 20 422 20 00 Support: 0800 33 6666 8 Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24776 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24772 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11167; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id NAA10467; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:28:17 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Ken Murchison cc: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <898754.3176544497@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, August 29, 2000 15:50 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > Chris Newman wrote: >> There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in >> headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed >> in any way by a standard. > > I agree, but for sake of argument, lets assume that Sieve is being used > with an internal MTA which is setup to handle local addresses (no > domain). If someone can send intraoffice mail to "ken", then I need to > be able to put "ken" in the ":addresses" option of my vacation rule. > Likewise, I should be able to do a redirect to "tjs" in this > environment. I fully understand the scenario, and it's almost identical to the 8-bit header scenario I mentioned. > I wouldn't setup my environment this way, but I think what Tim is saying > is that Sieve might be used in such an environment and should be locally > adaptable. We certainly can't stop anyone from doing that if they wish, but neither should it be standards-compliant syntax. > I don't see where there is an interoperability problem because this > would be a local configuration decision, and the local addresses are > only going to be useful if the corresponding MTA can handle them. > Obviously, these addresses would never see the public network. Here's the interop problem: Suppose I make a client to compose and upload Sieve scripts. Either it refuses to allow unqualified local parts, in which case it interoperates with everything, except your "local" server. Or it permits them, in which case whether (and how) it interoperates with a given server is unpredictable when an unqualified local part is used. Indeed I think it would be quite useful to have a sieve client which can test the script locally by running messages through the script. But such a client couldn't perform a deterministic test unless unqualified local parts were banned or it had a 100% reliable way to discover what the server would do with unqualified local parts. - Chris Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23956 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23952 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7TJlaA18261; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:47:36 -0400 Message-ID: <39AC13EF.96782F70@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:50:07 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Newman CC: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <579669.3176539191@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman wrote: > > --On Monday, August 28, 2000 17:52 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > > I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and > > will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use > > FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local > > addresses useful. > > There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in > headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed in > any way by a standard. I agree, but for sake of argument, lets assume that Sieve is being used with an internal MTA which is setup to handle local addresses (no domain). If someone can send intraoffice mail to "ken", then I need to be able to put "ken" in the ":addresses" option of my vacation rule. Likewise, I should be able to do a redirect to "tjs" in this environment. I wouldn't setup my environment this way, but I think what Tim is saying is that Sieve might be used in such an environment and should be locally adaptable. I don't see where there is an interoperability problem because this would be a local configuration decision, and the local addresses are only going to be useful if the corresponding MTA can handle them. Obviously, these addresses would never see the public network. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA23303 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23299 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04368; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id MAA02940; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:59:51 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <579669.3176539191@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Monday, August 28, 2000 17:52 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: > I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and > will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use > FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local > addresses useful. There's an installed base that finds localized 8-bit character sets in headers useful. That doesn't mean it interoperates or should be blessed in any way by a standard. Unqualified local parts are not legal by 821 or 822. They should always be treated as a Sieve syntax error. Perhaps the protocol used to upload a Sieve script could provide a domain which clients may choose to append to unqualified local parts. - Chris Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA27354 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27347 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB51872; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: Ft. Meade David John Oates Marxist Serbian Panama militia counter-intelligence To: Ken Murchison Cc: Chris Newman , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> <39AB3525.86445C90@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 21:30:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:59:33 -0400" Message-ID: <7dzolwzo2z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison writes: > Chris Newman wrote: > > > > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > > wrote: > > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > > >> MAY? > > > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. > > I wasn't advocating local addresses. I'd rather see FQDNs. Tim had > mentioned this before, and I was just clarifying what he was thinking so > I can make the appropriate (if any) changes in cmu-sieve. okay, okay, let's just drop 'em. :-) Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23173 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23167 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7T3v4A22868; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: <39AB3525.86445C90@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:59:33 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Newman CC: Tim Showalter , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman wrote: > > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > >> MAY? > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. I wasn't advocating local addresses. I'd rather see FQDNs. Tim had mentioned this before, and I was just clarifying what he was thinking so I can make the appropriate (if any) changes in cmu-sieve. Actually, since there had been literally no traffic on this topic, I thought Tim and I were having a private discussion :^) Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA15620 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.84]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15616 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.andrew.cmu.edu (PENGUIN.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.122.2]) by smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e7T2cug20135; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:38:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:38:56 -0400 Message-Id: <200008290238.e7T2cug20135@smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu> From: Lawrence Greenfield X-Mailer: BatIMail version 3.2 To: Chris Newman , Tim Showalter Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-reply-to: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 17:52:16 -0700 > in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is > meaningless to me. The only concept that might have meaning is > "same domain as in RCPT TO being processed", but for a given > sieve script, that might have many different values. I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local addresses useful. As a server implementor, I'd love to tell clients to not throw this unqualified names at me. I'd like to stick this work with the client and I think the client is more than capable of doing this. I'd rather not guess what the client is going to do. I'm not sure what functionality is added by the extension---clients should be able to throw a domain on the RHS. Larry Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02006 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02002 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB51311; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: strategic Vickie Weaver BATF security Uzi NWO Kennedy To: Chris Newman Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 17:52:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: Chris Newman's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:16:50 -0700" Message-ID: <7d4s443n3z.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman writes: > I was using shorthand. I was suggesting a scenario where > goes to my mailbox, as does any message with a domain part of > "cnewman.isp.com" (regardless of the local part). I'm sorry; I got a bit confused there. > > In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part > > being the only information available. > > > > Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out > > since there's no domain. > > That means the address can't be resolved, because there could be 200 > different mailboxes which receive mail addressed to the local part "cnewman" > in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is meaningless to > me. The only concept that might have meaning is "same domain as in RCPT TO > being processed", but for a given sieve script, that might have many > different values. I'm not advocating MUST or SHOULD here. It's got to be optional, and will clearly be useless for enlightened implementations that always use FQDNs. Unfortunately there's an installed base that might find local addresses useful. > > I don't want vacation to trigger because I was > > bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If > > I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger > > only when the mail is to , > > i.e., no domain at all. > > It sounds like you need a distinguished syntax for "any recipient address > associated with this sieve script". So add that (perhaps "<>" would work > for that). Then supporting subaddresses, vanity domains and their ilk > becomes an implementation detail rather than a scripting nightmare. "Any recipient address associated with this script" is built-in and already there. > > I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may > > be. > > If tjs@domain1.com and tjs@domain2.com are two different users, then which > one does "tjs" refer to? I would expect that "tjs" would refer to the tjs in the SMTP server's canonical hostname. If the server is called mail.domain1.com, it refers to the former; if the server is called vdom.isp.com, "tjs" refers to neither address. If the box doesn't have a canonical hostname, or the box doesn't ever support local email addresses, the script can be rejected, or the address can be ignored (one of these behaviors should be specified, and it should be the latter). If virtual domains are involved, then it is unlikely that anyone can refer to me as local user "tjs" anyway. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01684 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01680 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09687; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id RAA15483; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:16:50 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <1634946.3176471810@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7ditsl2cdj.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Monday, August 28, 2000 16:29 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: > Chris Newman writes: >> Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> >> which share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" >> address act differently depending upon which address the message being >> filtered was sent to? > > I don't understand what those addresses indicate in either redirect or > vacation. vacation doesn't currently specify that addresses are > supposed to be wildcards, and that wasn't my intent when I wrote it. I was using shorthand. I was suggesting a scenario where goes to my mailbox, as does any message with a domain part of "cnewman.isp.com" (regardless of the local part). > In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part > being the only information available. > > Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out > since there's no domain. That means the address can't be resolved, because there could be 200 different mailboxes which receive mail addressed to the local part "cnewman" in the same mailstore. In short, the concept of "local" is meaningless to me. The only concept that might have meaning is "same domain as in RCPT TO being processed", but for a given sieve script, that might have many different values. > I don't want vacation to trigger because I was > bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If > I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger > only when the mail is to , > i.e., no domain at all. It sounds like you need a distinguished syntax for "any recipient address associated with this sieve script". So add that (perhaps "<>" would work for that). Then supporting subaddresses, vanity domains and their ilk becomes an implementation detail rather than a scripting nightmare. > I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may > be. If tjs@domain1.com and tjs@domain2.com are two different users, then which one does "tjs" refer to? - Chris Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00518 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00514 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB50947; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: genetic strategic North Korea Waco, Texas DES White Water militia To: Chris Newman Cc: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 28 Aug 2000 16:29:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: Chris Newman's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:08:48 -0700" Message-ID: <7ditsl2cdj.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Newman writes: > --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter > wrote: > > >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > >> MAY? > > > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > > Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time > I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. > > > What happens when the MTA is upgraded to support multiple virtual domains? > What about vanity domains? > > > Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> which > share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" address act > differently depending upon which address the message being filtered was sent > to? I don't understand what those addresses indicate in either redirect or vacation. vacation doesn't currently specify that addresses are supposed to be wildcards, and that wasn't my intent when I wrote it. In some implementations, I can unfortunately imagine the local-part being the only information available. Suppose we consider "local" to mean domain of "", with the @ left out since there's no domain. I don't want vacation to trigger because I was bcc'ed on a message also to tjs@some.domain.ive.never.heard.of.com. If I instruct vacation that "tjs" is an alias for me, I want it to trigger only when the mail is to , i.e., no domain at all. I don't think virtual domains are a problem; however, vanity domains may be. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00117 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00112 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westmail2.West.Sun.COM ([129.153.100.30]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21475; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-jr.west.sun.com (nifty-jr.West.Sun.COM [129.153.12.95]) by westmail2.West.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id QAA10174; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:08:48 -0700 From: Chris Newman To: Tim Showalter , Ken Murchison cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Message-ID: <1389425.3176467728@nifty-jr.west.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, August 22, 2000 19:08 -0700 Tim Showalter wrote: >> What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a >> MAY? > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. Actually, I'd say MUST NOT (but could live with SHOULD NOT). Every time I've seen "local" addresses used anywhere it caused problems down the road. What happens when the MTA is upgraded to support multiple virtual domains? What about vanity domains? Suppose I have the addresses and <*@cnewman.isp.com> which share the same Sieve script? Does the resolution of a "local" address act differently depending upon which address the message being filtered was sent to? - Chris Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13561 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rembrandt.esys.ca (IDENT:root@rembrandt.esys.ca [198.161.92.131]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13557 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-037-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.37]) (authenticated) by rembrandt.esys.ca (8.11.0.Beta0/8.11.0.Beta0) with ESMTP id e7RLJ8L14869; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:17 -0600 Message-ID: <39A985CB.AEE552EC@messagingdirect.com> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:07 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cyrus Daboo CC: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <3730000.967137832@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I am in favour of keeping both syntaxes, because Ken showed usability of glabal variable use. Cyrus Daboo wrote: > --On 08/24/00 12:12:10 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > > > Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be > > the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags > > and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but > > want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with > > something like: > > > > keep :flags []; or > > keep :flags ""; or > > keep :flags "None"; > > We could opt for an IMAP like syntax here: > > keep :flags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags > > keep :flags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed > > keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are > ignored Sometimes you want to use only global flags, so I would rather the following: keep :globalflags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags keep :globalflags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed keep :globalflags - use only global flags keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are ignored Alexey Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05750 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.84]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05746 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.andrew.cmu.edu (PENGUIN.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.122.2]) by smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e7OLDvg16841; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:13:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:13:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200008242113.e7OLDvg16841@smtp4.andrew.cmu.edu> From: Lawrence Greenfield X-Mailer: BatIMail version 3.2 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-reply-to: <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: From: Tim Showalter Date: 24 Aug 2000 13:08:24 -0700 [...] I believe that if we can choose between setting the default/global flags and setting flags on a single keep/fileinto, we should go with a single keep/fileinto, and discuss global flags later. I agree with this. Variables are the Right way to go on this. Larry Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05085 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05081 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB35924; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: fissionable NWO KGB munitions clones Treasury assassination To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 24 Aug 2000 13:08:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: Alexey Melnikov's message of "Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:08 -0600" Message-ID: <7dya1m777r.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.secondary.com id NAA05082 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Alexey Melnikov writes: > > it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no > > reliable way to clear. > > You can always unset all known flags. This is ugly but works. > I miss test for set flags :-(. That isn't work; if an include system has set a global flag like "Youll-never-guess-the-name-of-this-flag-Bz28QzBNF", you can't really reliably unset it. This is a degenrate case, but it's still kinda bad. So the other thing that occurred to me is this, and it kinda scares me: if we're going to go down the path of global variables, we might as well have a $default_flags global variable and use that along with :flags. Something tells me that the operations on lists of stuff are going to be reasonably constant. I am not convinced of this, but in light of some comments Patrik Fältström made, we might want to go down the path of variables anyway. If we're going to, basic list operations are going to be essential as well. I believe that if we can choose between setting the default/global flags and setting flags on a single keep/fileinto, we should go with a single keep/fileinto, and discuss global flags later. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02554 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02549 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21298; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:23:53 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Ken Murchison cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Message-ID: <3730000.967137832@socrates.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <39A5495A.4DF44C48@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4a4 (Linux/PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On 08/24/00 12:12:10 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be > the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags > and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but > want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with > something like: > > keep :flags []; or > keep :flags ""; or > keep :flags "None"; We could opt for an IMAP like syntax here: keep :flags+ [...] - stored flags are global flags with additional flags keep :flags- [...] - stored flags are global flags with some removed keep :flags [...] - stored flags are only those listed - global flags are ignored -- Cyrus Daboo Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01660 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01656 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7OGH5A23043; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:17:05 -0400 Message-ID: <39A5495A.4DF44C48@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:12:10 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cyrus Daboo CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <7910000.967130176@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cyrus Daboo wrote: > > --On 08/24/00 09:54:38 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > > > The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I > > can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless > > of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional > > argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. > > I agree with Ken on this. I think it is useful to be able to set flags > globally. I also think its useful to be able to set flags on a one-time > basis for keep and fileinto commands as well. So I would actually argue for > both forms of imapflags to be available: as a global command and as a > parameter for fileinto and keep! Ooh, I kind of like this! So the flags specified with :flags would be the only ones set for that message (as opposed to the union of :flags and the globals), correct? What if we have some global flags set, but want to fileinto/keep WITHOUT any flags? Would we do this with something like: keep :flags []; or keep :flags ""; or keep :flags "None"; Hmmm... By allowing both types (local and global) we're kind of getting into scopes here, is this going to get too messy? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA25679 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25666 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20916; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:16:16 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Ken Murchison , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Message-ID: <7910000.967130176@socrates.cyrusoft.com> In-Reply-To: <39A5291E.CA312D56@oceana.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.4a4 (Linux/PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On 08/24/00 09:54:38 -0400 Ken Murchison wrote: > The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I > can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless > of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional > argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. I agree with Ken on this. I think it is useful to be able to set flags globally. I also think its useful to be able to set flags on a one-time basis for keep and fileinto commands as well. So I would actually argue for both forms of imapflags to be available: as a global command and as a parameter for fileinto and keep! -- Cyrus Daboo Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA21207 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21202 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7ODxWA18503; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:59:33 -0400 Message-ID: <39A5291E.CA312D56@oceana.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:54:38 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org CC: Tim Showalter , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. > > I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional > argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that > effectively munges a global variable. > > My primary problem with the current approach that this is the first > Sieve command to have a side effect that affects another action (other > than the reject vs. keep interaction stuff, which is somewhat more > minor). The way this stuff interacts is potentially annoying. Given > the existance of tagged optional arguments in the document as is, I > would prefer a different approach. I agree with this in principal, and would not be opposed to this change. However, having implemented the current draft in cmu-sieve and being a user of the functionality, I'll try to make a (possibly weak) case for why the global variable concept can be advantageous. Below is a subset of a script that I currently use: require ["fileinto", "imapflags", "subaddress"]; # mark (flag) all messages from Tim Showalter if address :user "from" "tjs" { mark; } # file mailing list stuff if address :localpart :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "ietf-mta-filters" { fileinto "INBOX.ietf.mta-filters"; } elsif address :localpart :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "ietf-imapext" { fileinto "INBOX.ietf.imapext"; } elsif address :user :is ["to", "from", "cc", "resent-to"] "info-cyrus" { fileinto "INBOX.cyrus"; } The upshot of this is that with only one test at the top of my script, I can flag all of the *extremely* important messages from Tim regardless of where they get filed/kept. If we move the imapflags to an optional argument, I would have to to a test for "tjs" for every fileinto/keep. This is the only use of the global variable concept that I have come across, so if the consensus is to make the change to an optional argument, I would be inconvenienced, but not overly disappointed. Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA04334 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rembrandt.esys.ca (IDENT:root@rembrandt.esys.ca [198.161.92.131]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04330 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-014-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.14]) (authenticated) by rembrandt.esys.ca (8.11.0.Beta0/8.11.0.Beta0) with ESMTP id e7O6M9l18422; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:09 -0600 Message-ID: <39A4BF10.74FD510E@messagingdirect.com> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:22:08 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. > I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional > argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that > effectively munges a global variable. I like this better but I remeber some objections. Also it is extremely difficult to explain this "global variable" concept to non-programmers. > ... > Until now, it has always been safe to add code to the bottom of a script > and assume that that code can stand alone. However, arbitrary flags can > be added, and there's no way to figure out what flags are set, Correct. > it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no > reliable > way to clear. You can always unset all known flags. This is ugly but works. I miss test for set flags :-(. > ... > Incidentially, among the nits in v03, the grammar at the end of the > document should be removed entirely. It doesn't match the Sieve grammar > at all (which doesn't define action, for instance). It is not > necessary; the existing Sieve grammar encompasses everything represented > here. However, the "Syntax" lines in the base document need to be > on each command to clarify the types. I will look at this. Alexey Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA15603 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15599 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7NDSOA32707; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: <39A3D059.12F00315@oceana.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:23:37 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Ken Murchison writes: > > > So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which > > includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked > > about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because > > when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow > > groups. > > Uh, let's forbid group and route, and limit it to a single address. I > don't remember how to say it in RFC822. Here's what I came up with and is currently used in Cyrus: sieve-address = addr-spec / phrase "<" addr-spec ">" where addr-spec and phrase are as defined in RFC822. Since I posted this earlier with no comment from anyone, its either complete shit, nobody read it or nobody has any objections. Let's assume the latter :) > > What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > > MAY? > > It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. If you want to throw a grammar element at it, it might be something like: addr-spec /= local-part Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25295 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25288 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB28567; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:07:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: constitution cypherpunk Honduras Lon Horiuchi colonel David John Oates domestic disruption To: Ken Murchison Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 19:08:45 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:56:31 -0400" Message-ID: <7d8ztod902.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison writes: > So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which > includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked > about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because > when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow > groups. Uh, let's forbid group and route, and limit it to a single address. I don't remember how to say it in RFC822. I don't want a single string containing multiple addresses. We ignored groups for address (I think) and I believe that's the right way to go here. > What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a > MAY? It probably should be. I will try and come up with wording real soon. > Are we going to use the same format for both vacation and redirect? I've submitted the Sieve spec for last call; I suppose I can take this as a comment on the draft, and fix the vacation draft to point to it. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18115 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18111 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7N0sCA11241; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: <39A3213F.4E7366C@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:56:31 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Showalter CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > The following is not a troll: > > I thought about the format for addresses at some time and I believe that > we should allow full RFC822 addresses because Sieve implementations are > required to parse RFC822 addresses anyway. Anyone who has implmented or > considered implenting otherwise, please speak up now. I don't > particularly care about error handling in this case; anyone who has an > opinion, please speak up now. So are you saying that you want to allow the FULL RFC822 'address' which includes 'group' and 'route', or the modified version that we talked about earlier and I posted previously in this thread? I ask because when we visited this before IETF you explicitly didn't want to allow groups. I personally don't care either way, since all I have to do is just change the start state in the cmu-sieve yacc grammar for addresses :) What about local addresses like "tjs" or "ken"? Is this going to be a MAY? Are we going to use the same format for both vacation and redirect? Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17568 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17564 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB28177; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:12:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: Qaddafi White Water terrorist Ruby Ridge nuclear Craig Livingstone jihad To: Alexey Melnikov , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 17:13:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:10:24 -0400" Message-ID: <7dhf8ceswo.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I may have voiced this before, but I don't remember. I believe that the right way to set IMAP flags is by an optional argument on the keep and fileinto commands, not a side effect that effectively munges a global variable. My primary problem with the current approach that this is the first Sieve command to have a side effect that affects another action (other than the reject vs. keep interaction stuff, which is somewhat more minor). The way this stuff interacts is potentially annoying. Given the existance of tagged optional arguments in the document as is, I would prefer a different approach. Assume for a moment the existance of either functions or a preprocessor, both things that have been discussed and are likely to be developed later. In either case (they're more or less the same without varibles, anyway), addflag/removeflag/setflag affect global state, and it may not be obvious how these things interact. Until now, it has always been safe to add code to the bottom of a script and assume that that code can stand alone. However, arbitrary flags can be added, and there's no way to figure out what flags are set, it is conceivable for "library" macros to set flags that there is no reliable way to clear. I would prefer if fileinto and keep were extended to take an optional :flags argument which would describe the flags to be added to the message, i.e., if header :matches "Subject" "ADV:*" { keep :flags "\\Deleted" ; } Incidentially, among the nits in v03, the grammar at the end of the document should be removed entirely. It doesn't match the Sieve grammar at all (which doesn't define action, for instance). It is not necessary; the existing Sieve grammar encompasses everything represented here. However, the "Syntax" lines in the base document need to be on each command to clarify the types. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14348 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14344 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAB27440; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Spook: New World Order Vickie Weaver smuggle Watergate nuclear Ortega Kibo To: Ken Murchison Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> From: Tim Showalter Date: 22 Aug 2000 14:37:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: Ken Murchison's message of "Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:16:21 -0400" Message-ID: <7dzom5dljg.fsf@tim-bsd.mirapoint.com> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Canyonlands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: After some conversation, Ken and I have agreed on the following format for addresses: All of RFC822 must be parsed; supirous comments are mandatory; phrases must be specified in Esperanto; all ASCII text must be in ROT-13, and all non-ASCII text must be in modified UTF-7 with all the letters printed in the reverse order that they are expected to be displayed in. I hope this isn't a problem for anyone. The following is not a troll: I thought about the format for addresses at some time and I believe that we should allow full RFC822 addresses because Sieve implementations are required to parse RFC822 addresses anyway. Anyone who has implmented or considered implenting otherwise, please speak up now. I don't particularly care about error handling in this case; anyone who has an opinion, please speak up now. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21748 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clea.qualcomm.com (clea.qualcomm.com [129.46.2.98]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21744 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (vpnap-g1-012030.qualcomm.com [10.13.12.30]) by clea.qualcomm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.0) with ESMTP id KAA09860; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> References: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Eudora v5.0b8 for Macintosh Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:58:45 -0700 To: Cyrus Daboo , ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Randall Gellens Subject: Re: sieve upload/download mechanisms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 2:16 PM -0400 8/17/00, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented > for sieve script upload/download. Our prototype code uses the Sieve ACAP profile, which is very easy to implement in clients and servers (and upwards-compatible with full ACAP). I've got preliminary code to integrate this into Qpopper. > > I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's > managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? Would it be > possible for server vendors to describe in some detail how their > implementations work for interoperability? I wonder if there should > be some BCP document about this? You left out email, which I've been told will be supported in some servers. I think this should be standardized. A BCP would work if the mechanism is an unmodified existing one, otherwise I think a standards-track document is needed. > > The problem is that as a client vendor I need to know how to get > scripts uploaded/downloaded to the various servers. I'd rather not > have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that looks as if it is > the case right now. Exactly. > > -- > Cyrus Daboo Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00330 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc.telia.se (mailc.telia.se [131.115.15.18]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00326 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc.telia.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailc.telia.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22422 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:45:49 +0200 (METDST) Received: from barbar.josefsson.org (t4o72p7.telia.com [62.20.151.127]) by mailc.telia.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA22408; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:45:43 +0200 (METDST) To: Cyrus Daboo Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: sieve upload/download mechanisms References: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> From: Simon Josefsson In-Reply-To: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> Date: 17 Aug 2000 21:36:10 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Cyrus Daboo writes: > I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented for > sieve script upload/download. > > I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's > managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? My (unreleased) sieve support for a mail client I'm working on uses CMU's "installsieve". I'm not sure if that's the same as managesieve. (http://www.nada.kth.se/datorer/e-post/sieve-at-nada.shtml describes usage of installsieve to some detail) > I'd rather not have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that > looks as if it is the case right now. Yes. :-/ Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28265 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.cyrusoft.com (darius.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.194]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28261 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrates.cyrusoft.com (socrates.cyrusoft.com [206.31.218.216]) by darius.cyrusoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02303 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:16:48 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: sieve upload/download mechanisms Message-ID: <380937.3175510608@socrates.cyrusoft.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0d1 (MacOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'd like to know what mechanisms server vendors have implemented for sieve script upload/download. I'm aware of systems that use ACAP, HTTP, FTP, LDAP, and CMU's managesieve. Are there any other means of doing this? Would it be possible for server vendors to describe in some detail how their implementations work for interoperability? I wonder if there should be some BCP document about this? The problem is that as a client vendor I need to know how to get scripts uploaded/downloaded to the various servers. I'd rather not have half-a-dozen variants to deal with, but that looks as if it is the case right now. -- Cyrus Daboo Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23807 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23803 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp4.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e7C2EIM30129 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:14:18 -0400 Message-ID: <3994B375.99BCFBCB@oceana.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:16:21 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Tim Showalter wrote: > > Hi. Ken Murchison pointed out that vacation doesn't define what an > address is supposed to look like beyond a string. More specifically, section 2.4.2.3 of [SIEVE] states that addresses must be compliant with RFC822, but doesn't state what part(s) of RFC822 addresses are accepted (ie, 'address', 'mailbox', 'addr-spec', etc) BTW, I think this same discussion applies to redirect addresses. Hopefully we can decide on a syntax that is consistent for both. > I am inclined to forbid comments, and define that an address is supposed > to be only the stuff between the <>s. I would like to add verbage to > the draft and state that this is all that's allowed. Ken thought the > phrase part might be interesting for GUIs, and I'm not sure how to > handle that. My point on this was that some user-friendly script creation tool might simply pull addresses out of an addressbook (LDAP, MySQL, proprietary, etc) which most likely would contain a phrase (ie, "Sieve Mailing List "). Since this is what most modern MUAs do, I don't think we want to prohibit this in scripts. > Should address allow for a phrase part, or worse, comments? IMHO, Yes. > If so, I > believe only the useful parts (i.e., user@domain) should be significant. For determining vacation behavior, I agree. > Ot's probably necessary to allow just user (i.e., no @domain) for > OSes/MTAs that have concepts of local mail. I will probably make this a > SHOULD since it might not be appropriate for some implementations. I agree. > If an address is syntactically or semantically bogus, I think the right > thing to do is to just ignore it, and we probably need text that says > that, too. In the context of vacation, this might be a good thing. But for redirect, I think the script should be kicked out so that the user knows that mail can't/won't be redirected to the address(es) in question. The problem with two different semantics however is that when parsing a script we would have to determine address validity based on context. So I'd like to use the same semantics for both, if possible. > I'm looking for a second opinion, especially on the question as to > whether phrases should be allowed/forbidden. FWIW, here's what cmu-sieve currently does based on preliminary discussions Tim and I had before IETF. - The grammar for addresses allowed in vacation and redirect is the following: sieve-address = addr-spec / phrase "<" addr-spec ">" where addr-spec and phrase are as defined in 822. Note that like 822, this grammar does NOT prohibit comments. For those without 822 handy, this removes the groups and routes. - The syntax of the these addresses are checked at parse-time, and if incorrect, causes the sieve engine to stop processing just like any other syntax error. - When determining whether a message was addressed directly to the recipient, only the addr-spec part of the :addresses are compared against the To, Cc, and Bcc headers. If we want to allow for local addresses as Tim mentions, I would simply augment the grammar above as follows: addr-spec /= local-part Personally, I think the CMU implementation (shameless plug) provides for the most flexibility with the least amount of insanity. This being said, I'm willing to concede any and all points :^) Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15386 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mirapoint.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mail.mirapoint.com [208.48.74.2]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15382 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-bsd.mirapoint.com (tim-bsd.mirapoint.com [192.168.0.117]) by mail.mirapoint.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAA20838; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: 11 Aug 2000 16:24:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tim Showalter X-Spook: quiche Marxist supercomputer White Water genetic colonel South Africa To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: does vacation need to define what an address looks like? Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Hi. Ken Murchison pointed out that vacation doesn't define what an address is supposed to look like beyond a string. I am inclined to forbid comments, and define that an address is supposed to be only the stuff between the <>s. I would like to add verbage to the draft and state that this is all that's allowed. Ken thought the phrase part might be interesting for GUIs, and I'm not sure how to handle that. Should address allow for a phrase part, or worse, comments? If so, I believe only the useful parts (i.e., user@domain) should be significant. Ot's probably necessary to allow just user (i.e., no @domain) for OSes/MTAs that have concepts of local mail. I will probably make this a SHOULD since it might not be appropriate for some implementations. If an address is syntactically or semantically bogus, I think the right thing to do is to just ignore it, and we probably need text that says that, too. I'm looking for a second opinion, especially on the question as to whether phrases should be allowed/forbidden. Incidentially, I said in Pittsburgh that I had sent in sieve-12 and vacation-04. I was wrong; I had sent sieve-12 to myself, and didn't realize it until way too late. I may have maligned the I-D editor, but they were doing a great job as usual. sieve-12 and vacation-04 are now in an I-D repository near you. Tim Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08753 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demo.esys.ca (IDENT:root@demo.esys.ca [207.167.22.130]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08749 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 21:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from messagingdirect.com (2-029-edm.dial.worldgate.ca [207.167.2.29]) by demo.esys.ca (8.9.3 (MessagingDirect 1.0.2)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01382; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:24:34 -0600 Message-ID: <3990D744.90B2DEFC@messagingdirect.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 22:00:04 -0600 From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ken Murchison CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt References: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ken Murchison wrote: > Alexey, > > A couple nits/comments/questions on your latest draft: > > Where's the page breaks and page headers? :^) I've decided to add them at the later stage. > > # > > # Example Sieve Filter > > # Declare any optional features or extension used by the script > > # > > require ["fileinto", "reject", "imapflags"]; > > Any reason why "reject" is required and mentioned below, but never used? > > > # > > # Reject any large messages > > # > > if size :over 1M > > { > > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > > { > > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; > > This should be: addflag ["\\Flagged", "$Big"]; Right. > > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" > > } > > fileinto "Big messages"; > > } > > > > if header :is "From" "grandma@example.net" > > { > > addflag ["\\Answered", "$MDNSent"]; > > # If the message is bigger than 1Mb it will be marked as "\Flagged $Big \Answered $MDNSent" > > Unless I'm completely off the mark (and my cmu-sieve implementation is > incorrect), "\Flagged $Big" will never be set on these messages, because > these flags are only set 'if header :is "From" "boss@company.com"'. Correct. Message will be filed into "Big messages" in all cases and only if "from" is "boss@company.com" two flags will be set. > I think you want the first test in the script to be something like: > > if size :over 1M > { > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > { > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into > mailbox "Big messages" > fileinto "Big messages"; > } > } Alexey Received: by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10131 for ietf-mta-filters-bks; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10123 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ken.oceana.com by eagle.oceana.com (Switch-2.0.5/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id e78GE2M18803; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:14:07 -0400 Message-ID: <399030F0.5FB4800D@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:10:24 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: draft-melnikov-sieve-imapflags-03.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Alexey, A couple nits/comments/questions on your latest draft: Where's the page breaks and page headers? :^) > # > # Example Sieve Filter > # Declare any optional features or extension used by the script > # > require ["fileinto", "reject", "imapflags"]; Any reason why "reject" is required and mentioned below, but never used? > # > # Reject any large messages > # > if size :over 1M > { > if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" > { > addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; This should be: addflag ["\\Flagged", "$Big"]; > # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" > } > fileinto "Big messages"; > } > > if header :is "From" "grandma@example.net" > { > addflag ["\\Answered", "$MDNSent"]; > # If the message is bigger than 1Mb it will be marked as "\Flagged $Big \Answered $MDNSent" Unless I'm completely off the mark (and my cmu-sieve implementation is incorrect), "\Flagged $Big" will never be set on these messages, because these flags are only set 'if header :is "From" "boss@company.com"'. I think you want the first test in the script to be something like: if size :over 1M { addflag "\\Flagged $Big"; if header :is "From" "boss@company.com" { # The message will be marked as "\Flagged $Big" when filed into mailbox "Big messages" fileinto "Big messages"; } } > # when filed into mailbox "grandma". If the message is shorter than 1Mb it will be marked as > # "\Answered $MDNSent" > fileinto "GrandMa"; # move to "GrandMa" folder > } > Ken -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp